The Viall Files - E1142 - Ask Nick w/ Jess Vestal - My Mom is Dating A 25 Year Old

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! Our first caller is seeking advice on reconciling with her father after 11 years. Our second caller is navigating a strained dynamic with her grieving mother, who is dating her younger brother's friend. And our third caller wants to support her husband as he pursues custody of his daughter. "Nick, I don't think I've ever heard you say, 'I don't know…'" Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe  ARE YOU A MESS BECAUSE OF YOUR SITUATIONSHIP? OR JUST IN GENERAL? Email [e-mail] with all your relationship questions and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes!  Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content featuring updates from your favorite callers? Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + HERE: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: The RealReal: Get $20 OFF your first purchase when you go to https://therealreal.com/files. Plus, you can get an extra $100 to shop when you sell for the first time. Reddit: Download the Reddit app today. Ladder: Head to https://ladder.fit/viall to get a free 7-day trial with NO credit card, and $10 off your first month if you join. Neuro: You can get 20% off your first order at https://neurogum.com by using code VIALL. Article: Visit https://article.com/viall for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. ASPCA: To explore coverage, visit https://aspcapetinsurance.com/viall.  OneSkin: For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code VIALL at oneskin.co/VIALL **To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles    Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 05:44 - Caller One 1:04:52 - Caller Two 1:52:10 - Caller Three Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @justinkaphillips @the_mare_bare @baybaeee

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I know we don't usually do those intros, but we're going to start maybe doing them. We're doing them because we have a very special guest today. Jess Vestel is my celebrity guest. Hey. You excited? You ready? I'm so excited.

I knew Jess. Jess is, you guys know Jess will be good at this. I might have some wisdom to share here or there. I feel like you do. Yeah. Yeah. What's going on your life? Anything new?

Do you have a love life these days? I knew you were going to ask me that. As far as my love life goes, I think I'm still going to air on the side of private until permanent. Private until permanent. We love that. Yeah. But other than that, I'm just busy with Autumn and I don't know, trying to make the world a better place, I guess. Okay.

What is, before we get into our calls, what is one kind of relationship theme you're seeing out there that either you think is good or annoys you? I was actually just talking about this yesterday. I feel like a lot of people get like FOMO. They meet people that they really like and they're interested in, but they feel like, oh, I don't know if I should take this seriously or if I want to settle down because there might just be something better

that's going to come along. and I really hate that. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that paralysis of choice. It's knowing that, like, it's thinking that you, the world is your option, so to speak. And it's like, I mean, I don't know. I'm not going to say I hate men, but I feel like it's worse with men.

Like men will find somebody and they, and she'll check every box and they're like, but like, what if something better comes along? And I'm just like, I don't know. people I just feel like commitment is still an issue for a lot of people I feel like yeah it's it is it's not only getting worse it is it is getting worse yeah so I don't know hmm I'll unpack that what do you think what's yours like what do you think's like the worst like dating trend do you see right now I don't know I mean they're all kind of like that I mean you know you know I'm seeing a lot of hope love Island and summerhouse are giving me hope only because like

you know how like probably the most frustrating dating trend and we see it a lot of on us, Nick, is the, we're exclusive, not boyfriend and girlfriend. And I'm always like, what the fuck does that mean? And it doesn't mean anything. And we've listened to the Summer House reunion and you see this on Love Island because Love Island's just like, hey, we're closed off,

but we're not together. And obviously it's structured to allow the daters to date and kind of create drama. But through these conversations that the Love Islanders are having, it kind of gives, it puts a light in how crazy those conversations are because when you see people try to have them in real time,

they sound crazy. But that's how we all sound and look to anyone else who's like, what the fuck does that mean? Yeah. And then you have the Amanda and West and West being like, well, I wasn't really an exclusive relationship. We were exclusive, but she wasn't my girlfriend. And everyone in the cast is being like,

that's what a boyfriend and girlfriend is. So I feel like sanity is prevailing a little bit. But every data out there are speaking to your non-committal aspect of, of these little steps that we have implemented in the dating that make boyfriend and girlfriend feel like a marriage. Yeah, I don't know. I think they're fully sane and they're fully aware. It's just saying we're exclusive,

but we're not like putting titles on it. It just relieves them of any like responsibility if they do something that's not in the bounds of a relationship. Yeah. Well, enough of us, we got some great calls lined up for you. And I know you came to listen to those calls. Before we get to the calls, I do want to remind you guys, that is available out right now, and it's very ask Nick coded. It's very much centered around my thoughts

on relationships and feelings now that I am a father of soon to be three girls under three. Obviously, a lot of the relationship like questions and conversations I had are now like kind of framed and centered about like what kind of advice am I going to be given my daughters when they eventually, sooner than, you know, later, which is crazy to say, well, like start coming to me for this type of advice. And obviously a lot of the conversations and thoughts and feelings I have are centered around what we're watching on TV. I dropped one last Wednesday. I titled It Stuck.

Basically, kind of centered around like the signals about how to like know that we were really stuck on someone. It's amazing how like how long we stay in relationships that we're literally not even in anymore because where you're constantly obsessed with them. The idea that like someone cares less than we feel like they should about an experience that we lived is something that's very difficult to process and get over and keep so stuck.

I wrote about it. I hope you check it. out. It's available. Just go to any of our Instagrams. If you want to find it, you can find it. So please check it out. I hope that you do. I think you'll enjoy it. All right. Are you ready for the calls? Yeah.

Let's do it. Don't forget, VAL Files Plus now offers ad-free episodes for all VAL Files episodes including Ask Nick, Reality Recap, and Going Deeper. Plus, if you love Asked Nick, you will absolutely love our

Ask Nick updates where you get updates of your favorite calls, our deep dive on all your favorite reality recap TV shows, and our pop culture roundups where we talk about all your favorite pop culture topics that we didn't get to in this week's episode, plus deep dives on our going deeper guest and so much more. All you have to do is go to Val Files Plus, and you will be lucky you did. How's it going? It's going good. My name is Hope.

I am 25 years old, and I want to know if I am curious about my dad. or just curious about getting closure. Okay, well, tell us more. What's going on? Yeah, so my dad recently reached out to me via text message after 11 years of not speaking. Okay. And I don't really know what to do about it. Okay.

Give me the layout of like the family dynamic. Yeah, okay. So it's a really long and complicated story, but I'm going to try and make it brief. So my mom and dad got divorced and kind of had the classic. like became arch enemies fought all the time. It was very toxic. And basically, like over the years as I grew up, it was always me dealing with their toxicity, hearing their arguments, being there for their arguments, and just kind of always like having to deal with really awkward scenarios. Every occasion was a problem. Every day I was hearing about all their issues

that they were having and it just became increasingly awkward as I got older to kind of pretend like nothing was happening and nothing was wrong and I would just kind of go about every day. And then it kind of all came to a head when I was 14 years old. And like I said, when I got older, it was hard to kind of ignore it. And so I decided to kind of confront my dad about all the things that I had heard about what he had done in the past and was kind of currently doing. because again, it was kind of a classic where my mom always overshared everything, kind of told me everything that my dad was doing kind of behind the scenes and just a lot about their past. And then I kind of got the opposite from my dad, whereas he would tell me nothing

and he would not want to talk about it. And every time I'd go and see him, it was just like nothing was happening. So I decided to kind of confront him, but in a what I thought was a calm way, And I just called him and I said that I wasn't really willing to kind of just like pretend like nothing was happening anymore. And I wanted to know his side of the story because I'd only ever heard my mom's side of the story. And I told him that it was just hard to kind of pretend anymore. And he basically refused to talk about anything. He said it wasn't my business.

and that because I was a kid, it wasn't for me to hear, which I would genuinely agree with that if I felt like that was what he was actually, like, why he was doing that. I think that he kind of used that excuse to kind of deflect from his bad behavior and not want to talk about it. And so he refused to talk to me. And I kind of just said that I wasn't really willing to continue to see him and pretend because all I had to go off of was what my mom was telling me. And I wasn't really wanting to have someone who was doing the things he was doing or had done things he was doing without taking any accountability in my life. So that was the last conversation that I ever had with them. What were some of the alleged allegations that your mom

had on them? What wasn't the allegations? So my parents, they met when they were 21 and it was actually a one-night stand that very immediately became a pregnancy. And I don't think if that, if that never would have happened, they never would have been together because they were just complete opposites. They had a very toxic and abusive relationship for their, like for their whole time they were together. And from what my mom has told me, she said that he was abusive in almost every way that you can think of. He then like later words wouldn't pay child support was like harassing her. constantly was just making kind of just making her life hell for a long, long time. And my dad also struggled with drug addiction, alcohol addiction, mental health issues.

And yeah, kind of just all these crazy things that I heard that I finally kind of was old enough to feel like I could address it. So, yeah. And then after that, you were 14, you confronted your dad. He was like, no, I'm not going to tell you. that was the last time he made an attempt to have a relationship with you until recently? No, so he has reached out to me in the past, but it is pretty few and far between. I would say every about two years I get a text from him.

And what was the text? It's, well, over the years, it's kind of been like very generic things, like happy birthday or like, I miss you kind of thing. But the text that he sent me about a month ago, which is the one I'm talking about now, was basically he said, said, hi, I never know what to say when I do this. And I miss you, basically. That was what he said. Okay. I'm curious about your perspective. So when did the like 11 years stretch happened? And was that because you like drew a line and you were like, I don't want to speak to you anymore? Or did he just go 11 years without reaching out? Yeah. So it was when I was 14 to now, but I'm 25. So that was the 11 years. And. I always kind of kept, well, maybe not later on, but in the beginning, I kept the door kind of open because all I was looking for was him to just talk to me, to tell me his side of the story and kind of if these things were true, if they weren't true, and if they were true, like, why, or just like tell me that he feels like bad about it or just like, I don't know, take any kind of accountability. And yeah, so he, he would just like send random text messages, but then I would just be like, well, are you willing to. to tell the truth and he still wouldn't.

And I kind of just took that as him not like kind of just wanting to brush over it. So the few times he would check in, you tried to be like, are you ready to tell me now? And he would just say no or didn't reply? Pretty much. He would always reply. But it would be, yeah, the same thing. Like these things are for kids to hear kind of thing. But then when I got older and then when he was maybe more willing to talk about it, I was not willing to talk about it because I was angry at him for.

kind of like holding that boundary for so long. So what part of you is making you curious enough to write into us and ask us what we think? So I don't know. I think, I feel like I am old enough now to be a little bit more objective about it. And I feel like for so long I was so emotional about it. like I was very, I was either angry or I was really sad and like even getting a text from him in the past would kind of like send me into a week's worth of a depressive episode. Like I would just get really upset.

And now when it happened, like I feel like it's the first time where I'm less emotional and I'm more like logical about it. Yeah, exactly. Like logical. I can kind of take a step back from my feelings and just like think about it. And also I feel like I've just kind of moved on in a sense. Like I've so many things in my life have changed since then. I'm a different person.

And a lot of things in my life are just like kind of growing. And I feel like I can, I don't know, I can think about the situation in a more neutral way now, I think. Then I think the first thing that you might want to ask yourself before responding or moving forward at all is like, could you have a relationship with him if you never get those answers? Like, can you meet him where he is or is that a hard boundary you're drawing? Like, in order for us to move forward with our relationship, I need this from you. Like, could you have a relationship if he's never willing to talk to you about those things? I don't think so. I think I'm not asking him to, like, you know, make it all disappear.

And, like, I know that people can grow. They can change. And I'm hoping that's the case for him because it has been. been so long. But I just need to see some kind of accountability. Like I just need him to acknowledge the mistakes that he's made and just, yeah, I don't know, just own up to the things he's done. What are the, are there any specific things that are really harder for you, like that you want answers on as opposed to mom and dad were never right for each other than they met in a one night stand and quote unquote tried to do the right thing. But what specifically are the things that like to this

day to answer Jess's question. You're like, no, like, I need to know. Like, why? Like, what are the... And is it because, like, are you trying to figure out whether your dad is even a good person and safe to be around? Or is it more like, are you sticking to your guns because it was like, I've decided I deserve this, therefore, you know, I'm not going to give in. Is it like loyalty to your mom?

Which do you think it's more of? I think it's less about me and I think it's more about my mom like I am very protective of her and like I am very loyal to my mom and it's not that I wouldn't talk to him because of her it's that like I from her perspective I've heard all these like terrible things that he's done to her

and I just can't like in good conscience like be in someone's life who has been like physically emotionally financially and sexually abusive to my mom without even acknowledging it. Yeah. So unfortunately. So hi, I'm Jess also like I feel like this is kind of a trauma bond for us. I have a really, I have a similar relationship with my mom, my biological mom. And I actually recently made the decision that I want nothing to do with her. I want to have no relationship with her. And I came to that decision because I was like, this relationship brings me nothing positive. And you really don't have an obligation to somebody. Just. because they're your relative. It's the same thing with anybody. Like, if it's not a relationship or an interaction that's not bringing you any amount of peace,

then you don't have to do it. But on the flip side of it, two things can be true, unfortunately. This is just my opinion. I think someone could be a horrible partner to someone and have the ability to be a really good parent. I'm curious. How did you get to that decision? It sounds like you said somewhat recently. You came to that decision.

And was that after a series of attempts to have a relationship? Yeah. So my biological mom, same thing. Very sporadic interactions with her. She'd reach out to me every couple months, every couple years. But I realized when she'd reach out, she'd always be asking something from me. It was never like, how are you? If she sent me a happy birthday text, it was usually like on the wrong day, like not even on my birthday.

And there was no reciprocity. It was just she would always either be asking. asking me for money, asking me, just asking something of me and really not contributing anything to our relationship. And I just had a moment where I was like, and I had that same feeling. Every time I'd see her name come in my phone, it was like a pit in my stomach. It's just like, I didn't look forward to interactions with her at all. And I was like, I actually don't have to do this. And it might sound terrible, but I don't feel bad about it. So I would have that conversation with yourself, like, can you have a relationship with him outside of what his relationship was

with your mom? And that's totally fine if you can't. But there is that thing in your mind. And I had to ask myself this, like, God forbid, something ever happened to him. Are you going to look back thinking, man, I wish I would have just heard him out and maybe let go of some of the things I heard and just focused on what kind of, you know, dad he was to me versus what kind of partner he was to my mom. Yeah, because that's what it sounds like maybe the biggest difference right now between Jess's experience that she's shared and what you're going through right now is the recent attempt. Like right now, you're basing your decisions off of a memory from when you were 14, 11 years ago. And that obviously that period of your life is very traumatic. And in no way am I suggesting your mom is not being, you know, it sounds like what was going on with your dad was pretty heavy.

I remember my first girlfriend She didn't talk to her biological father And she had a really close relationship With her stepfather who was married to her mom As I got to know her You know like there were definitely like something Like you know listen everyone has their perspective You know and and her mom had the closer relationship

But like there were just maybe some stories that like There were just two sides To that story And I think sometimes when parents are going through difficult divorces, there's this fear of, like, who are their kids going to choose? So this is all to say, I don't, you know, like, again, I'm not trying to plant some seat of doubt about what your mom told told you or anything like that. But it's just more to just this point, whatever you decide, maybe you're at a stage in your life mentioning that you're just, you're a different person. You're a lot older now. You're an adult and you just become an adult.

you've, you're in your mid-20s, and maybe confronting this relationship with your father to see if there's a there there makes more sense now than based off the memory of a situation in a person, you know, knowing that like part of it is to protect your mom, part of it is like that guilt of like, how would my mom feel, you know, and things like that.

So maybe it wouldn't hurt to see. Listen, if you, if you, if you, if you, take him up on this, there is definitely the possibility that it's not going to go away that way you hope, whatever that hope is, that he will prove to be the person you remember. Yeah. And I'm sure it was very difficult for you to come to this recent decision with your mom. So there's definitely that risk of opening up something only to get hurt again. Yeah.

You've got to practice some acceptance because that moment or like that accountability, whatever, apology you're waiting on from him might not ever happen. And you are ready to face these things, but he might not be. And there's nothing you can do about that, unfortunately. So I think you have to do like whatever is going to bring you the most peace and practice some acceptance. Like those are his demons to fight. And he might not be ready to face them. Therefore, there's no way he could openly talk about it with you, much less like to take. take accountability. Yeah, I don't know what some of these accusations are.

Some of them sound like they could be pretty heavy. It could be a really difficult conversation for him to have that, you know, even to face the truth. Yeah. You know, I don't, you know. There's a lot of layers there. As a parent, then he's got, you know, he's probably got his own guilt or maybe he might not see anything wrong with anything he did at all.

And so there's like so many layers to it. I think that, yeah, you just, you need to decide whatever's going to bring you the most peace. And if you can have that relationship with him without having that conversation. Yeah, and then there's the question, what if your dad's willing to open up, right? And again, not knowing the specifics of what happened between your mom and your dad. But he definitely has a different version. Like, even if he copse to some things, he has a different version. I mean, I don't know.

Maybe there's a world where he's like, yeah, your mom was an absolute saint and I'm an absolute piece of shit. It's possible. Maybe unlikely. And then the question is, for the sake of getting your dad to open up, do you need him to like, do you even need to hear that his version? Yeah. Like, ask yourself why you want to know. Because sometimes something's like, I don't know. I've learned that in relationships.

Like sometimes you ask questions and then you might hear the answer and then you can't unhear them. Just just workshopping this. I'm not saying this is the right answer. I don't know, but kind of to just his point, you know, maybe I don't, I don't know if the barometer is, is my dad willing to finally answer my questions right now? You know, is a, is a decision tree to decide what I do next, right? I only say that because is there anything else that could give you the, the answer of like, is this worth trying to have a relationship with my father so that eventually someday that I will be in a place with my dad where maybe we could have the conversation I hope to have?

Because like right now you guys are both strangers to each other. There's like no real rapport. Don't know what he's going to say. But I imagine it could be a more productive conversation if there was a world in which you guys slowly, you know, like is there a way you could see this? like, you know, what is, if you took him up on this and said, let's grab a coffee or something and just kind of come in without an expectation of just being like, who is, who is the man who's going to show up and what's he going to say? And you're kind of, you could, you could, you're in the driver's seat that way because he did reach out to you. And you could say, honestly, you know, I'm not sure if I should do this. I have a lot of reservations. But, you know, obviously you are my dad and I, I'm sad and I didn't have a relation with you. But I don't, I really didn't know what to expect from you in honestly, like, what you hope to get from this conversation.

And I'd be curious. I mean, I don't know. Are you curious what he would say if you presented it that way? Yeah, I am. And like, I totally agree with you guys. I don't, I wouldn't, like, walk in there and start saying, like, asking the heavy questions. I don't even need to address, like, every single detail, every single story. It's just the fact that, like, I don't think I've ever heard my dad say he's.

made a mistake ever in his life. Like he has never once taken, just even acknowledged of like things that he's done. And so I feel like that's kind of where I struggle is like I don't need him to be bringing up every single thing and talking about it all, but I just like need something to like address that he feels in some way like some remorse. That makes sense. But just, you know, remember that like that you were only 14. And most, and a lot of, there's not a lot of parents out there who are.

apologize you know i will say like i mean it rivers two and a half and and she she'll be like i'm sorry for she'll apologize for things she doesn't need to apologize and i'm like no that was my fault you know like i and i didn't really think about it but i want her to know that her parents can apologize that being said i don't think it's it's more common than not that parents are like it's my way or the highway about you in this world yeah um but that's why practicing some acceptance like that apology that accountability it might not ever happen like I think to not have an expectation with that is probably the easier way to go into it is to not have an expectation. So that way you're not automatically disappointed.

Just out of curiosity, is there anything, despite all your dad's mistakes that you feel it anyway to apologize to your dad for? Or that you could apologize your dad for? I don't know. I guess maybe also being very much an active part of the route, like why we didn't speak for 11 years. Like I initiated that and I kept it going just as much as he did. So I guess like if we could come to a mutual understanding, I would acknowledge that. That sometimes helps with people, you know, who are stubborn, you know. It can be a very humbling experience to have your kid teach you a lesson. Yeah. You know. So maybe, you know, there's a possibility there. I think this is like my biggest takeaway without having the experience that Jess has with this. Is that like, yeah, I agree with Jess. Like, you know, at the other day, if someone is hurting your overall well-being in mental health and you've given too many chances, there's no absolute in terms of keeping people around.

Yeah. But, you know, you only have one father. And it's one of those, you're basing a lot of your decisions on you being 14 and it ended up being 11 years. from now. So if nothing else, if you're if you're that curious and it sounds like you're not really, you know, he's going to keep checking in. Maybe this is an opportunity to just kind of like get new information now as an adult as this new person that you are compared to your 14. You may end up coming to the same decision, you know, but it will, you will probably be more confident about that decision, whatever that decision is. Yeah. And I, so we had kind of a bit of a back and forth

conversation a month ago when he texted me. And like that was the first text conversation we had in a long time. And it did end with me saying I was willing to meet with him. Okay. And then, to talk. And what was your response? I just, he said just, okay, let me know. Because my thing was, I'll meet with you, but I just need like a little bit more time just to like prepare myself. Okay. And he said, okay. no problem. So then I, that's just kind of where it left and that was about a month ago. So he did he ask to meet up? Yes. Okay. Does he live in the area? Like are, he does? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We live both in the same city. Have you ever, you know, and I, no, no, but I like, it can be awkward. And I feel like,

at times it would be nice almost to even just get to a point where we can be not necessarily have a relationship maybe like if even if that's where it goes and that's where it goes but even if we can just be cordial because there's been a lot of like avoiding on my part avoiding him which I guess is another thing I could acknowledge and maybe apologize for is that I've like actively avoided him and his family at like a lot of functions so what is what is his life do you know what his life looks like these days I don't um so I follow like a lot of my family members who are still in contact with him on social media and like sometimes I'll see like a little like a picture of him somewhere and he's like still very much an active part of my family and I don't see a lot of them a lot but I do see like

I sometimes will see like for example my grandma who's my dad's mom and she has always been very not supportive of me not talking to him so there's just a lot of I think people as well that are like outside factors that are influencing kind of my decision but I'm trying to not let but is your dad do you know if he's single still remarried does he have kids is it like what what is he hanging out of the bars like what's he you have any idea um so he's remarried okay he was remarried when i even like when i was 14 like i knew my stepmom and he's still married to her yeah and they like my stepmom had a uh son from a previous marriage as well so then that was my stepbrother. And so that's the only other child in their life as well. And from what I gather,

like he has a job, like another thing throughout his life, like he struggled with like work and having a career and stuff. But now I think he has a stable career. I don't really know what it is, but I think he does. That's definitely, I think, very useful information. Yeah. I mean, the picture you painted and the memory you have is a man who was obviously not great to your mom, but in addition to that, struggled with addiction problems, was kind of an unreliable, like, human in society. And it was, like, kind of a troubled young 20-something-year-old. You know?

How old is he now? He's 50. Okay. Yeah, I think it might be worth going and having... He's been remarried. He's married to the same person. Yeah, it's giving stability. I mean, so I assume he's not still in active addiction, as far as you know.

Um, as far as I know, no. Um, the thing was, is like, even when I was actively in contact with him, like, he was, he was stable. He had a stable life. He was working. He was married. So that, like, hasn't changed. And I do, I do give him the benefit of the doubt in the sense that he was a 21 year old boy when a lot of this went down, like, until like his mid-20s. And so people can change from when they're in their 20s to now 50. So most of his, most of your mom, mom's stories about his behavior was when he was in his early to mid-20s? The stories about their past and like when they were together. But the stories like went up all the way until like my whole life like because they always dealt with like legal issues, child. I guess I'm more speaking

about any of the stories that your mom told you were it was more like I can't, you know, like there's no like taking sides that was a, you know, you talked about physical and sexual abuse. So I don't, I don't I don't want to pry into things that you might not be comfortable sharing. Do you feel like your relationship with him or lack of has affected your relationships in adulthood? It definitely, like, I think just not having a good, like, male role model. I think that affected my dating life a little bit, but I do think I've grown past that. But other than that, I think I've done well with my relationships and my connections. And no doubt.

I don't doubt that. But would it be fair to say as well as you've dealt with it, you've had to deal with it? You know, and so it's just something that, you know, you've survived it and you probably have done very well, but I think maybe to Jess's question,

is it something that is, it does take some energy and it's something you do have to process and is there a world where, you know, there might be some healing from, that you don't even realize Right. Totally, yeah. I think in one of my texts to him, I even said, like, I'm kind of just tired of being angry. Like, I don't want to feel and, like, hold on to such emotions. It kind of has always just been this, like, little dark cloud in the back of my mind that's just kind of sat there. And so that's kind of where the closure part comes in. I, like I said, it would be kind of just nice to even address it and just get to a point where we're not, like, actively in conflict. Like, we're just kind of even just a new. So I think I'm I'm definitely open to going to talk to him, but I think like I kind of just don't know now how to go into it without like having any expectations or then I kind of start jumping to, okay, what happens after that?

Because then I worry about like other people like telling people about it or like. Why would that be a bad thing? People's expectations. Have you have you, have you, does your mom know anything about this? No, I haven't told her anything because I kind of just figured. there's nothing to tell yet. And that is a big element as well as I'm, I just know if I told her it would be a big thing.

And I would tell her if I had to. I'm not afraid. You don't think she would want you to have a relationship with him? No, she does not. Listen, I know people close to me who, some version of this, there's some parallels. So everything's different. So not surprising to hear that you're,

mom wouldn't want that and not to compare the people I know to what you're going through. No doubt there's going to be just some fear and anxiety that your mom has about you reconnecting and how that's going to affect your relationship. And I'm sure your mom is always going to be nervous about his side of the story. Not because she's not telling the truth. It's just like everyone knows there's another side of it. And then, you know, I imagine that would be scary. But I guess what I'm saying is, and I don't think this is going to happen to you, but if you do reconnect with your father, let's, if there's a world where he doesn't open up to you and you're sitting down with someone who really has maybe done some work and he seems like a new person and, but you

ask him some questions and he kind of like tells his truth. And, and let's say his truth makes you go, man, did I, you know, makes you question anything your mom said. I would let that shit go. I think there's that part of your mom that just is afraid of it affecting her relationship with you. And the people I know who have reconnected with their father years later, it just there, I think that person, there was, you know, again, like, I think it's just people who go through this, there's a lot of anger. And I don't think they know what to channel that anger. And maybe sometimes that anger is just the fact that, you know, their childhood wasn't maybe as like, you know, maybe similar to friends that they had. And I, in the people I know going through that, they ended up taking it out on the parent who was that, you know, who raised them and gave almost an unfair amount of grace.

Yeah. To the, to that other version because that person could come in and be like, you know, that was a different, you know, a different life. and it can get very messy and complicated. Yeah, I think the best way to go into it is to manage your own expectations and not be attached to any outcome. Like I wouldn't like get your hopes up that y'all are going to finally have this moment, but I also wouldn't go into it and be pessimistic. Like, oh my God, it's going to be the same BS as it always is.

He's just going to keep it surface level. Like I think doing your best to not get attached to an outcome. And above all else, like especially now that you're an adult, you can, put yourself in your feelings before everyone else's. I think children, like in your position, kind of being stuck in the middle of it, you are so overly conscious of everyone else's feelings that you forget, like, how to or that you even should prioritize yours, but that's a learned thing that you're going to have to start doing now. And that's the way I would go into it. We've got to do everything in the sense of like, is this best for you, even though it might not be best for

your mom because she has her own healing journey. She has her own, her own things she's got to deal with from the situation and your dad, too. I would just think about you and not be attached to all the what-ifs. Yeah, I 100% agree. That's exactly how I felt like it's always been everyone else's feelings I've been really conscious about. And I try not to like make waves and cause problems. But I feel like I'm always kind of considering other people's feelings. but I feel like it's subconscious that other people aren't considering mine.

Right. Because I do think I can go into this conversation, like, fairly neutral. I don't want to be accusatory. I don't want to, like, hash up all the past. I just kind of want to, yeah, like get a feel of where he is now. And like, kind of the real, like, I don't know. Yeah, just get to know him on a very, like, surface level. but I just kind of worry about, yeah, like the backlash of it all.

Don't. And it's even worth. What is the backlash outside of your mom? I guess it's not so much of a backlash, but like I know if I was to go have a conversation with my dad, I think that like my very intrusive grandma, who's my dad's mom, would just like make it a huge thing. I feel like she would, I feel like she would find out because he would probably tell her. And then she would make it a big thing. And then if I was to say choose not to have relationship after, I think it would just be like this big thing. And then so it would be like dealing with her, dealing with my mom.

And then how do you still deal with Rose Grandma? Like how does she have access to you? I go see her. It's very limited because I do set boundaries with her because she doesn't always respect my like what I have to say or my reasonings. So I'm like it wouldn't be like detrimental to my life, but it just would cause me a lot of anxiety and stress. So I'm just worried about that. And well, how how do you would you compare it to the anxiety and stress that you have on this topic, which seems to last? I think it's different.

It's like I think the what the way I feel about this situation with my dad, it's just kind of like simmered to like a very. very, I don't know, like a very low anxiety. And I've, I've dealt with it. It's, I can like move past it. And I've kind of like made peace with it. And versus I think just like if I was to take that next step, I just am worried. It would just, yeah, open the whole can of worms of not protecting my peace anymore and then having all these outside influences. And yeah, so it would just be like the easy route to just decide to not talk to him. But I don't know if I want to take easy road. Yeah.

Well, just a couple of things in response to that. As far as your mom goes, I feel like there's a good chance you're most likely in control of that relationship and you probably,

you know, if you want, you know, like, yeah, you're in control, right? Your mom,

your mom's frustration, fear and anxiety is, it's going to most likely come from a place of fear and then you're in the best position to reassure her that she has nothing to worry about and that you love her.

And I imagine, her fears will come from how is this going to change things or how is this going to change my relationship with her daughter? And if you reassure her and show her that it's not going to change anything, then she will learn to accept it, if nothing else. And then as far as grandma's concern, as far as grandma's concern, you know, I wouldn't not at least, again, get new information now that you're an adult,

you know, throwing away that opportunity if that's what you want. because grandma might be a little obnoxious for a bit. I think long term, you know, I wouldn't give grandma that much power. Right. Yeah, I agree. I think I just, I can, yeah, I can imagine exactly how it would go down with my mom. Like when she finds out about it. And it'll be like the same.

Like my mom and I were very close and she's by no means perfect. but I obviously am very loyal and I love her. But when we do fight, which is not very often, it's very much like the classic mom who has temper tantrums and will say very hurtful things. Will ice me out for like a week and then come back and pretend like nothing ever happened and never apologize. Well, just remember, that person was married to your dad.

Nick, oh my God. Yes. Okay. I think above all else, you're not responsible for anyone's feelings. And that, like, is going to have to be something you need to work on. But I can have gathered from this whole situation that, like, your whole life, you've had to be overly conscious about the adult's feelings in your life. And, like, that you're still without even realizing it, doing that now. And like you said, how you have boundaries with your grandmother.

And I get it. Like, my daughter is my absolute best friend in the world. and I hope that she would say that I'm hers, but boundaries are okay. And you can tell, like, you can tell her, hey, I don't like that you treat me that way. I don't think we should communicate this way. I think that I want to have a relationship with my dad for me. And that has nothing to do with you, respectfully. And as a mom, I'm telling you, she, I'm sure she's not going to be happy about it because she had her own relationship with your dad.

But she should want that for you. So, yeah, I think you should work on prioritizing your, feelings above your family members and do what makes you feel good and what makes you happy. Yeah. And I have tried to work on that. Like there was a point in my life where I would never have set up to my mom. But in the past like couple years as I've gotten older and we've gotten into conflict, like I am able to very calmly like say, like just address the situation and try to like, you know, be kind when she's being uncomfortable. I just like, there was one time even when we had a conversation and it was a hypothetical conversation about if I was to ever talk to my dad again.

And she literally told me that she would not talk to me anymore. And she did later retract that. She said that it was a trigger response and that she got very angry right when she heard it and she didn't actually mean it. But I just know that that would kind of play out in real life. She would probably get over it long term. but like I said, it's just a lot of, it would be not protecting my piece in the short term, but I know that if I have to do it, I will. Well, that tells me a couple of things.

Well, the first, I was going to ask you a question. Have you ever in your life, specifically in your adult life, caught your mom trying to manipulate you? Yes. Yeah. That's information. No, and like I, like I said, I love my mom. I'm very loyal to her, but she's not a perfect person. she can be very difficult to be around and just in general in conflict scenarios.

Like I said, she kind of has a problem apologizing. Like she always does think she's right. And I do think she does have a tendency to exaggerate situations, which is why I have always been curious about my dad's side of the story. Not saying that she is lying about anything, I'm confident in that. But I just know that there may be some embellishments. Yeah, there's no perfect answer. I mean, again, the closest experience I have to your story is that my first girlfriend and, you know, my first toxic relationship of seven years was like, had like a front row seat to something that sounded

kind of familiar to what you're going through. And I, you know, as a new dad, I can never, I can never imagine what your father was willing to do, which was ultimately like, let his 14-year-old daughter set up in him, he just kind of be like, okay, well, I guess if, you know, you, you You set a boundary, and your dad's like, okay, I guess. Like, you know, other than the reaching out a couple times, it hasn't sounded like he really fought to have you in his life, which also must be a challenge to accept. But I just, like, I just remember my first girlfriend's,

like when she re-tected with her father. And again, not, I don't really understand his decision-making process, but it was some version of he kind of gave up. And I might have thought it was still cowardly or whatever, But like, dealing with her mom was so difficult and so toxic that it was like, you win. I give up. And I don't know if there's any version of that. I guess you don't really know the answer because you kind of like as you've gotten older,

you've gotten to know your mom a little bit more. You've seen there's a possibility that maybe like there's, you know, gaps or there's just another side of the story. And I guess my point is, like maybe it's just worth it at this point in your life to just, get the new information. You may, you may come to realize that mom was right, you know. I also think it's really interesting, whether it's bullshit or not, your mom willing to make that threat to you, oh, I would never talk to you. If nothing else tells me that she is not scared for you to have a relationship with him in the sense that she's not like, listen, I don't want you to stop having you

from a father, but he's a dangerous guy. He's going to do this. Everyone who comes in his path is worse for it. Like, that doesn't seem to be the case because if she was actually worried about that, I don't think she would threaten you with that. She's worried for her and she's worried for how it affects her, which is why she's trying to scare you into not doing that. And I think that's also information. Yeah.

And my mom has always kind of had a tendency to make things about her. And I kind of just, I don't know, let it happen. Like she's the kind of mom to like call you up and then just start talking. for like 40 minutes straight without actually like being like, oh, are you busy? Is your mom remarried? She was, but then they also got to board.

I think, I don't know what role stepmom is playing in it, but the fact that your dad is remarried and is married the same person and he's reaching out, either she's obviously, or most likely she knows about it

has encouraged him, or he's, you know, doing it without a permission. Each way, either one, it's kind of like, the fact that she's in the picture, it somehow matters to me or something. Like it wasn't like an easy, it's not like he hit rock bottom and he's like, you're the only one left to reach out. No. What do you think? Yeah.

I, oh my gosh. I just want to give you a hug because I'm like, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place because I feel like you, in a way, I have always felt like you had to choose and you need to like stand beside your mom because she's kind of. of like made you accustomed to feeling that way. But yeah, I think it's, oh my gosh, there's so much to unpack with your mom. Like there is, has your mom ever gone to therapy? I know therapy for some people's not the end all be all, but it sounds like her going through this hard time and this divorce and this whole thing with your dad, like you were like her rock, which is like, you know, that's a tough spot for a child to be in because then you never grow out of it. It's almost like you feel like more the maternal figure in y'all's relationship.

Oh yeah. I actually have said that many times where it feels like I'm the mom sometimes because I'm kind of the one who has to like deal with the conflict and like resolve it. And I'm always the one that has to go to her. And yeah, to answer your question, she has been in a lot of therapy in her life. She has dealt with a lot of mental health issues as well. And maybe one other thing that might help the context is that. So when my parents at 21 got together and got pregnant, it was with my older brother.

And he, when he was two years old, passed away. So after that happened, like their relationship was already really toxic to begin with. But after that happened, it really darkened both of them, obviously. And my mom for sure, but in my dad a much darker way. Like he got very much more into drugs and alcohol. abuse and then she probably saw that as him not being there for her and that that's her interpretation of the story is like he probably she probably feels like he turned his back on her when this was supposed to be the weight of something they were both supposed to carry yeah there's so

many is there any part of you that subconsciously worries that meeting up with your dad will shed a light on their relationship that will make you like you don't want to see your mom any differently or you don't want to find out like you know that like there's a other side of the story? I don't think so. I am very aware of who my mom is. I know she's not perfect, and I would be open and okay with hearing another version. That's like, yeah, like I've always been curious of that.

Yeah, so I would be, I would be okay with that. I'm not too concerned about kind of learning more about her, if that makes sense. Well, I think Jess had nailed it where she's, I think the path forward is to try if you can to not have any. expectations and maybe just go in as curious as possible and see it for what it is, which is simply just a second chance at having some kind, any kind of relationship with your dad. Yeah. And you're still pretty young. And your dad relatively is still pretty young.

And who knows how it's going to go. Right. But like, you know, you could have a whole life left of memories to build with your dad and your mom. And as you've heard, I'm sure me say on this show when it comes to talking about these parent-child dynamics is like, you're really in the driver's seat. You know, your parents now in life need you more than you need them. You can dictate the terms of those relationships. So, you know, take advantage of that situation. And to just this point, you know, life's short.

You just never. It sounds if nothing else, if you don't meet up with your. dad and take them up on this, it will be hard to imagine a world where you won't even, you won't at least wonder if you should have regrets as opposed to the willingness to find out some stuff and then make a decision as an adult woman about what kind of relationship you kind of want to have with both of your parents. Because a lot of your information is being based off the memory of a 14 year old girl. Yeah. And I agree. I do like my brain tells me that I have control of the situation and that I'm an adult and then I can, you know, set boundaries and do all that.

And I am in the driver's seat. But it's almost like this situation takes me back to like being that 14 year old. Like I feel more like I like, yeah, like I feel like I don't have the control, even though I know I do. So it's hard to kind of shift my brain to that. But I know I need to work on it. Are you in therapy? No, but I have been trying to look for one. I have been before.

Actually, it was right after I stopped talking to my dad. My mom put me in therapy. Okay. So it's been like 10 years, though, right? Yeah, it's been a long time. Yeah, give it a shot. Yeah. You know, it might be helpful while you go through this.

Especially just working through, like, you're feeling of, like, feeling responsible for their feelings. I think if you had some clarity and a better roadmap with that, it would help you navigate both relationships a little bit easier because you're still operating in the mindset of like the child that's in the middle of it and kids are so resilient like that's why they call it childhood trauma that we're dealing with now as adults because as children we're just like in survival mode and like don't know what's going on and then it comes back as adults and yeah like I said I know therapy is not the end all be all for everybody but I think it could help you with both relationships. It's something on the end of all but it is helpful.

Yeah. I would make sure, take your time finding the right therapist. You don't, you can, you can fire them. Remember that. I make sure they're apparent. Yeah, yeah. I definitely will. Like I said, I've been looking, haven't like secured one yet.

But I feel like, yeah, I have a lot of emotions. I have a lot of thoughts. Well, finding the therapist is a little bit like dating. Sometimes you just have to like go on the date, see how you feel when you're done, try it out, maybe go on a second date just for shits and giggles. We shall know. This might not be a forever relationship. But like, you are literally opening up and being incredibly vulnerable with someone.

They are a professional. You're paying the money. But like it's, you've got to feel comfortable. And it has to feel like some, you know, it has to, not every therapist is the same. Right. Not every perfect therapist is perfect for every person. But this will be something you're going to want to bounce off of someone. That's not your family.

Like, not a non-objective. Yeah. Like, I definitely want you to unpack after you go and have this lunch with your dad and definitely unpack again if you have the conversation with your mom about it, but like third party. Yeah. Like, not a family member. Okay. I will work on that.

I will secure one. I guess my next question is like, so I think I've come to terms with the fact that I will just go and have a conversation with him. What do you think, like, how do I go about starting that conversation? Like, what do you think I should focus more on talking about just in that first interaction? And should it be in person or over the phone? I think in person would be good. If you can handle it, I would always encourage the important ones are always better in person. Yeah, just to start by just catching up.

I mean, if you want, you could just read the room and follow his lead. But I would just start, I mean, you guys have a lot of ground to cover. And just like get to know each other at this phase in your life. He reached out so you can kind of be like, well, I'll be honest. I'm a little nervous. I don't know what to say. I didn't come in with expectations. So, you know, like I'm here.

Now what? What do you want to catch up on? Yeah. You know? I think the trick is to not like, like Jess said, not have expectations. And just it's like, you know, same like date analogy. It's kind of like just see how it goes. You are exploring a relationship to see if you want it to continue or if it's something it's worth investing in, which is in a lot of ways similar to dating.

I'm not trying to compare dating and romantic with your dad. Relationships are relationships. You're either investing in them or you're not. And the ones you're willing to invest in are the ones where people usually stick around. Yeah. So I think it's just more, yeah, if I'm you, I want to know who your dad is today. I would be somewhat curious as to like what made him want to reach out. Because it is a lot more important to man he is today than the man he was 20 years ago.

Right. Yeah. And I think one thing that kind of worries me is that he's always been like nice to me, like to my face. And the problem was always what he was doing not to me and to other people and like things that he kind of deflected. So I just like I have kind of, I think what would happen is I would go and it would be nice. and he would be nice. And yeah, but I just like, I don't want to just like acknowledge all the, oh, just like my mom and that's kind of

it, honestly, just like what he's done in the past. But yeah, yeah, I just, I don't want to like address all the heavy topics right off the bat, but I'm also like I feel like it would be a nice conversation. And then I don't know, I know if that's enough. Yeah, but it just feels like that's coming from a place of wanting, knowing that you're going to have to confront your mom about this and wanting, wanting to be able to tell her that you had her back. And I don't know if that's like the most important aspect of this conversation.

Like Jess, this is about you and your relationship with your dad. And that's kind of it. Yeah. And you and your mom are going to get through this. You have way more power with your mom than you realize. And not that you should take advantage of it, but like she needs you more than you need her.

I mean, you need each other. But like, she's not going. She's not going anywhere. I feel like I can safely say that. Not without a fight, that's for sure. And she might put up a little bit of a fight and a temper tantrum, but she's going to be okay. All you have to keep telling your mom is that you love her

and you're not going anywhere. You know, and you just have to reinforce that. And I don't think you need to defend your choices to your mom. No. I don't think you need to. But don't worry, I told me he was a piece of shit or I had your back or I don't think. I never do any of that.

Remember, you're not responsible for her feelings. And she's your mom. Right. She's going to instinctively love you. And like Nick said, she's not going anywhere. But if she starts doing the thing like you said that she does as far as like throwing a temper tantrum or trying to guilt trip you into anything, you can literally treat it like when a kid is throwing a tantrum and just like don't pay attention to it and be like, oh, well, this is not a productive conversation. I'll come back to it when you're not communicating with me like that. And she might be like, you know, that might be drawing to her.

That's not how you typically handle it. But you can't communicate with somebody like that. So yeah. But again, we're worried about so many things that haven't happened yet. So again, not being attached to an outcome and trying to manage the expectations a little bit, I think is going to be your best friend here. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I know that deep down.

It just, yeah, makes me a little nervous. definitely to actually. Yeah, definitely explore therapy. And encourage yourself to not just work on it because, you know, whether it's better help, I mean, you could be talking about therapist tomorrow or you find it in a different way. But like, just be intentional about it because it's really easy to put off. And I just think like, you know, like all of us, it's also a bit of a trope these days when childhood trauma and things like that. But there is a lot of truth to the things that happen to us as kids.

really play out to us as an adult in ways that we don't even comprehend or realize. And it might be just super helpful to understand how you show up in all your relationships and how much your childhood is affecting you in ways that you don't even realize. And that in no way takes away from how resilient you have been and how you've been able to do what you've done on your own, but it doesn't mean you couldn't be better with a little bit of help. no I agree so sorry

when do you think at what point do you think I should tell my mom about this if I'm you and I don't think listen I don't think it really matters and I don't think that's the key my advice would be like

just take advantage of the power you have and like you know I don't it's like you know I don't know if you're watching Love Island but I am and and last night you know since here may not with the girl and then he was she was like you know and he chose the kind of like the you know like I'll I'll

tell her if she asks kind of like cowardly response I love island reference is sending me I would I would take control of the situation I would just tell her even before you go I'm going to go do this mama you know no I disagree I disagree because that's going to give you way more anxiety about it that's that's taking making an already kind of difficult situation even more difficult because you never know, like, she could, like, throw a Hail Mary and plant a bunch of crazy seeds in your head that aren't already there just to prevent you from going. I definitely would not tell her beforehand. I think that. Yeah, I feel like I was kind of on that bow.

Like, I think I didn't really want to tell her until there was something to tell. And I don't think that going to, like, just have an initial conversation. Conversation is like something to tell. No, I think definitely don't tell her beforehand. And then after the, after you go and have the conversation with your dad, I think I don't know, just read the room. And next time you go and I would tell your mom in person if you do decide to tell her. Definitely don't make it an over the phone or like over text kind of thing.

Like, oh my gosh, guess what I just did today? I think while you guys are having a girl's day or something, be like, listen, this already happened. There's nothing we can do about it. And yeah, I met up with my dad and this is how it went. And if it starts going left, be like, listen, I feel good about it. Or if you didn't feel good about it, then you can be like, hey, I gave it a chance. and I don't like him.

I'm never going to see him again. I don't know. Just tell her before it feels like you're hiding it from her. Yeah. Okay, that's good. I can agree with that. You know? Yeah.

Okay, that makes sense. Like you're going out of your way to like lie. You have to like lie to not tell her in a weird way. Do it before that. Okay. Yeah. Because there's no good. Unless she calls you while you're on the way there.

And she's like, hey, girl, what are you doing? Still don't tell her then before you go. Because I feel like then you're not going to. I definitely agree with Jess in the sense that if you think she could stop you, don't do it. I don't think she could stop me. I just, yeah, I do think, though, that, like, Jess has a point.

I think she would just say a lot of things that would get in my head. I think Jess makes a really great point. Just do it before you have to, before it feels like you're hiding it from her. Because you don't have to apologize for this choice. You're not doing anything wrong. And I just don't want you to feel, like, you know what I'm saying? It's like the, it's like you don't tell someone because I know you're going to be mad at me. So I told you the lie and because, like, the thing.

And it's just like. I have a really good feeling about it, though. I think you're going to be really glad that you went. I think that one way or another, something good is going to come from it. Even if you and your dad don't like blossom into this relationship you've always wanted to have with him. I think something good to come up. Yeah. You could be three years out from something like that.

Just give it a chance. No expectations. This is step one of who knows. Yeah, I agree. I think that if I go, it'll be for me and it'll be to kind of confront this little, yeah, storm cloud that's always been. in my brain and just like kind of yeah and hopefully yeah it'll give you one less what if because I feel like that's all of the other clouds in your head are all these what ifs about with him with your mom about the relationship with them together like this will be just one less what

what if that's that's the positive thing you can take into it it's like hey I've wondered about it I tried it and that's it yeah no I agree well good luck let us know thank you guys yeah Well, our pleasure. Yeah, thank you for sharing. I'm dying for an update whenever you decide. Me too. And just remember, there's no good time to deliver bad news, you know? It's not going to be bad.

No, but just for mom, it's going to be bad news. Yeah. When you're trying to figure out after you meet up with that, when I should tell her, just remember, there's just no good time to deliver bad news. And that will be before the time where it feels like you're hiding it from her. Somewhere in between them. Yeah. There's a lot of moments in my life where I think there's no way I'm the only person dealing with this, thinking this.

Does anyone relate to me? Well, thank God there's Reddit because there's always drama. You guys know I'm a TV junkie, and when I'm not watching reality TV, I watch a lot of scripted TV as kind of my wind down. And sometimes I know you guys like to go on Reddit for all your reality TV friendships and conversations. When I'm just enjoying myself, I like to talk about what's going on with White Lotus. Friends and Neighbors, Discourse, Sign me up. I go to art slash television where I get all the conversations I can possibly want and more. Reddit is a real cross-section of options instead of a single narrative.

So it always feels authentic and something to go back to. There's always a great perspective, an Easter egg observation or just a fun fan theory that you can have a great conversation with people with similar interest to your favorite shows on Reddit. Whatever question you're dealing with, whatever problem you're stuck on, Reddit already has the answers. Download the Reddit app and get answers on R slash television. Download the Reddit app today. The hardest part of exercising is figuring out what you want to do and how to progress.

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Thank you so much. Okay, good luck. All right, bye-bye. How's it going? Hi, my name is Macy, and I am 30 years old, and I am here to kind of break down a situation that I'm having with my mom on whether she is dating my brother's best friend. Okay. Oh.

It's a fun one. Yeah. Well, for us, maybe not for you. Give us the lay of the land. Well, first of all is your brother. Yeah. So this is where it gets festive. So my brother just turned 26 and his friend is 20.

Oh, my God. Even crazier. Because that was like, you know, maybe it was like, you know, maybe it was a lot. like, oh, my older brother from a different parent. Oh, wow. So your younger brother's friend who's younger than your brother is dating your mom. Yeah. So I can't say that 100% that is what's happening. I can't get her to, I hate to say, like, admit, but basically admit to it. Kind of to preface a lot of this. My father passed away in 2024. And so he had a farm that he basically had a farm hand. And so essentially my brother had him become the friend, become the farm hand at this location.

And so when my father had his cancer, he was his, my dad's assistant. So he would drive him to all of his cancer treatments and everything. And after he passed away, he, essentially just kind of worked his way in and was a remake of my dad for my mom. And so they seemed to have this really close connection that I couldn't really like pick up. And I also didn't want to be like the daughter that have like, you know, extreme red flags on the situation and make judgment calls on something that was too early because it was about like six months after my dad passed away. I tried to like ask my brother about it. He's like, no, they're trauma bonded. It's fine. but I'm pretty good on reading people.

And at that time, I was like, yeah, something's happening. And so over time, I tried to, like, confront my mom about a situation and that involved the farmhand best friend guy. And he, like, yeah, it's very confusing. It's a too long process, two-year process of everything kind of being broken down. Ultimately, my mom has decided that she is wanting to buy it. piece of property with the best friend. And I am not supposed to know about it, but she told my brother about it. And so that's kind of where it started to get a little weird for me.

So I couldn't figure out how I want to like move forward with my mom after this process. So that's kind of what I'm here for. What are you specifically hoping we can help you out with? Yeah. So I'm trying to figure out how to move forward with my mom because I feel like I've tried. to talk to her about this problem multiple times. My mom is very young. She's 55. I'm not naive to the fact that she could find someone else. She's a beautiful woman.

Like she could find someone else and fall in love again. But I feel like she's lied about this process time and time again of just whatever relationship that she's having and she's hiding it quite a bit. And so it seems like she's wanting to choose spending. time with him over spending time with her kids. And so that's where it becomes difficult for me. Okay. Would you be willing to accept your mom's choices, whatever they are, so that you guys can

have the relationship that you want with her? Yeah. I mean, I think that if anyone would have been in her corner with the situation, it would have been me. I understand that love kind of comes in weird ways. So I just, like I said, I know that she could have fallen in love and they could move forward with each other. But the guy that she's with seems to kind of have a little bit more of like a malintent than a good intent. And so that is what is making it hard for me to say that I like trust the situation and her decisions within. minute. What do you think she's at risk? What's at risk for your mom? I mean, everything.

To be honest. My dad had a business. And so she has gone through the transfer process for my brother for him to receive the business. He's driving my dad's truck. He is taking over like everything. And we also have to mention our family. So it wouldn't surprise me if I At some point, he essentially would just transfer everything to his name once she starts forgetting everything just to get what he wants. So your mom's only 55, but like, but there's no sign that your mom has or is going to get dementia other than it runs in the family. I mean, after my dad passed away, I wouldn't say that she didn't show signs of forgetting things, but I tried to give her a little bit of a grace period considering that, you know, my dad passed away. way pretty tragically in a short amount of time. So yeah, I mean, my my grandmother started having signs at like 65. And what conversations have you had with moms so far? How have you approached it?

After my dad passed away, I went over to the house around Valentine's Day to like try and just be nice and give her a gift and whatnot. And so I watched through the house and I heard the shower running and them talking. Luckily, it was only talking, but I did hear them in the shower together. And I was like, hey, so I went by the house the other day and this happened, you know, what's going on with your relationship with him? And she essentially said that she wasn't there. She said that she must have been in the basement. She's like, are you sure my car was there? Like, 100%, there was no hiding it. Like, they were together in the shower talking. And so she just has continued to lie about it. So after that, my brother talked to her about the situation for whatever relationship she's having

and that he doesn't want to be involved with him anymore. And she denied it and said that he's been really special to her and that he has just continued to be there for her where we haven't been. But she kind of pushed us all away in the middle of that too. Any other? So later on in that situation, I tried to like just move forward. And then she basically blamed me for the reason for why we haven't had a conversation is because I was forcing my brother to have a conversation when he wasn't ready. So again, her just pushing it off, not wanting to have a conversation about who he is.

He's living at the house with her. She is pretty much hiding that all under wraps. She won't even bring him up around us, but we all know that he's there. I mean, she's, I don't know. Like, she's obviously still grieving. Like, everybody grieves differently. Like, I can't imagine, like, my daughter, confronting me about something like this.

I don't even know how I would hand. I would probably... Yeah, you'd probably lie. I would probably lie. Yeah, because, I mean, it's... Like, I totally get your concern on so many levels. Like, number one, like, you're also grieving your dad and, like, you feel like your mom should be going about it completely differently.

And this is, like, your brother's friend and he's, like, technically younger than your brother. Like, I totally hear you and agree with you on everything. But, like, as a mom in the situation, like, like, as a mom in the situation, like, Like, I don't know if I would be handling it any differently. Yeah, that's why I asked, like, what's at risk your mom? And I hate that you, I mean, answer to everything. Maybe it's not everything. I know you obviously, sounds like you don't trust this guy and you're worried about,

it sounds like you're worried about his ability to steal from your family and your mom. I wonder how, like, how realistic is that from happening anytime soon? And I guess, but to that point, like, like Jess said, I mean, it was just like she was definitely going to lie. It must be very awkward to talk to any of your kids about this. She probably feels foolish or embarrassed. And she's also probably not lying that he's been special to her and he's helped her grieve and yada, yada, yada. It's just I wonder if right now getting your mom to admit the truth is not the goal because like she doesn't want to tell you the truth. But like, it doesn't help any of you by allowing your mom through her embarrassment of her choices to

distance herself from you guys. It is such a messy situation. in the short term, I would just choose peace. And I would not even peace. I would choose to like make to fight to stay close with your mom. And if that means not getting to the bottom of it right away, maybe that's better in the long run. Yeah, no, I 100% agree. I think that for me I tried really hard to to do exactly what you just said.

Just like trying to continue to have a relationship with my mom and wanting to be there for her in case something happens. That was actually like a huge drive for a really long time because my brother was feeling very opposite to me. He was wanting to essentially cut off ties and not really do anything, but everything for him is a little bit more of a stronger stake issue for the business and whatnot. Where for me, like, I don't really have anything to lose. It's either I have a relationship with her or I don't have a relationship with her.

And it wasn't until she decided that she wanted. wanted to buy this piece of property and wanted to close on the piece of property before telling me about it and then telling my brother that I needed to not know this information is where it started to feel a little unsettling for me. My mom could buy whatever piece of property that she wanted. This is all very driven by the guy that she's with. And then I also received a letter from him last week as well, essentially apologizing for hurting me, but he didn't really apologize for anything specific. So it's a little sketch to also add in he was previously married. And so we are close with the ex-wife. And I reached out to her to see if she received a letter because

I felt like, okay, if he sent a letter to my brother and I and the ex-wife, maybe he is really trying to turn things around. And she did not receive a letter. She said that this was very much his M-O, that he would essentially write letters to apologize for X, Y, and Z. He's like just very manipulating. So this isn't out of his character of attempting to write a letter and then not change anything either. I think with your mom for now as hard as it might be, you might just have to meet her where she is. I feel like this is going to pass. I mean, she's a 55-year-old woman and she's lived a lot of life. I think as she continues to work through the grieving process or maybe when she starts to maybe kind of see the situation for what it is, I think that she'll move on from it. But I think that this is like, unfortunately, like a form of grieving for her. Has she like, I keep asking, like, has she gone to therapy? Like, what other ways has she been grieving that you have seen? Yeah, so that's a really good question.

So she has been going to therapy since my dad passed. Now, whether she is talking about any of this is a separate situation. So that's about it. She doesn't talk about my dad other than getting rid of that. his stains, which I think is a normal process, by the way. But I just think that she, I actually don't think that she's grieved at all. Like, I think her grieving is avoidance. That's what I was thinking. But if she's in therapy, I think maybe like, like Nick said, now is probably not the time to confront and maybe try and get an explanation or try and talk her out of it, because especially because

you gave the context about his letter. Like, he didn't apologize because I don't think that he or her thinks that they're doing anything wrong right now. Like, he probably does have some ulterior motives, but I don't think you're going to be the one that's going to be able to show them that. Maybe ask if, like, you can go to one of her therapy sessions with her and, like, not make it like an intervention type thing, but just be like, hey, I just had some things I wanted to talk about.

And having, like, the third party neutral person with you guys there might really be helpful. And she can lead you guys into, she could probably lead your mom into like maybe starting a healthier way of grieving. Because I think this is her form of grieving and she doesn't realize it's kind of like, not detrimental, but like it's, it's not, it's not giving her like the healing and like the grief journey that she thinks that it is. I don't know. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. I'm just thinking of like, wonder how a mom would receive that. It made me want to ask a question. What was the last interaction you had with your mom?

I think that every interaction with my mom is fake. But what was the last interaction you had with your mom? I saw her on Sunday for her birthday, and she is just very much so. I just think she's faking her happiness in front of us. Was he there, the other guy? Oh, no, no. I don't, if I'm around him,

I don't make eye contact with him. I don't look at him. Like, I, it's, I'm the only one that will occasionally be around him. Um, but I'm not like having full on interactions with him at all. And my brother won't, my brother hasn't seen him in two years. Wait, so this has been, how long has it been going on for? This is what I'm going on for two years. You said six months after your dad passed is when you guys found out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I agree with not confront. her about it because I too would I tried to like you know say something and she shut it down and I tried to like make my peace with her about just like look I just want to be there for you and I just want to be supportive like I I know that you can find someone in the future like I just want to know how I can be there for you um ironically at the time when I was talking to her about this she

was sick and like actually couldn't speak um and so she was like I just want to to talk about this at a time that I can talk. And I was like, 100% never came back to the conversation for it. And since then, I just decided that it wasn't worthy of bringing back up, because she obviously didn't want to talk about it. Right. So I agree. I think that confronting her about it over and over again isn't going to get me anywhere, which is why I think the question continues to come back on, but what type of relationship am I wanting with my mom? Because because she's wanting to choose him over being with me or even like my children instead of, like, it just seems like he's the answer for her, but we aren't, which is confusing.

I think he's more of a distraction for her, especially since you feel like she's kind of avoided the whole grieving process. He's, I mean, he's a 25-year-old guy. So I mean, like, He's, I feel like probably a distraction for her right now. And I'm sure she's not looking at it as an either or situation. Like she loves her children and her grandchildren. I just think that she's just kind of living in an alternate reality right now. What's this property they're buying together? So he likes to hunt.

And it's a completely wooded property that has about like a two acre spot that's available for them to build. The way that my brother explained it all to me is that her selling point was that it's very secluded and private and no one can see. That was the way that it was sold to him. And how does your brother know about it? Because my mom decided to tell him about it due to the, we're from a very small area. So with people who like the realtors and everything, she was concerned that someone was going to tell him. And so she told him before me. So I still don't even know about it.

How did she tell him? What did she tell him? Well, just that I guess she has decided that she wanted to buy this piece of property, that it's a good deal, that, again, it's the secluded location. She wanted a new start, which is fine. But the part that she's buying it with this other guy. And like, is his name on it? Is he contributing money?

Like, do you know any of that? That's beyond us, unfortunately. Because if your mom is just like buying a piece of property, quote unquote with him, but like legally she's buying it and she's just graciously allowing him to enjoy it while they date, then it's less of a concern. If like he is somehow his name is on it, if he's like half the owner. Yeah, what does he do for a living?

Works for your mom. Oh, is he still the. Well, that was that was a problem. for a really long time. It's like a Jerry Seinfeld episode where he's like paying his housekeeper, then he starts dating his housekeeper and he's just like, what did I pay for? Essentially, yeah. I mean, so once my brother started to go through the process of working within the business, more and more people were starting to question, you know, what are we paying him for? No, he's not here anymore. We don't see him. Like he would float around to the different

locations. So the more that people questioned, the more that it was kind of encouraged that he should put his two weeks in. So he is actually going to school to become a nurse. And so that's what he's doing. That is his new path is the nursing degree. So he doesn't have a job? Like, no. Well, that to me is that that's a big unknown like this. Because if he if she is making a financial decision in like this, and giving him half this property, that's a bigger like, oh, fuck, do we need to do some about it? If it's, if that's not the case,

then, then hopefully it's just like, then she does have like a fresh started a new space. Maybe that's something if you choose to like, maybe go to therapy with her or if you're seeing a therapist, invite her to come with you.

I think bringing things like that up in a more neutral environment, like you are more likely to get like a more productive outcome and be like, and it's your life. We don't have to talk about your relationship with him. But how do you think your mom would receive you asking to go to therapy with her?

Yeah, I don't know. I've actually contemplated that quite a bit because I feel like any time that like whatever connection she has with this guy is brought up that she kind of shuts down. So I felt like, again, having kind of a third party person there would maybe help her. sounds awful, but like force her to actually listen. I think that she doesn't want to hear any of our opinions in regards to it. And I think that she thinks that our relationships are totally fine, but they're not. We're struggling with this.

I think that we all realized that my dad was kind of the linchpin for us, that he was the one that would literally just show everything that he could to show his love for us. and now we don't have that. So my mom is not very strong at expressing love or like getting in touch with us or like I haven't heard my mom say that she loves me and probably every bit of a year. So that's also a secondary problem for me is like if I have to look at family and as I'm raising my own, I'm going, what does that mean to me? And does this person fit in this family that I would like to create for myself. And to be brutally honest, she doesn't. Like, she isn't showing the type of love that I want. She's not there for me. Like, if it wasn't for the fact that this is kind of like our birthday

month, like we wouldn't be hearing. So she's just not there. I would be careful about like, like using love as like a negotiating tool or tactic. I mean, you have your family. It's your family. you obviously are a control of who has access to your family. Our extended family, our parents, our sisters, or brothers, they kind of show up in different ways or at different times. But I would be careful of being like, mom's not moving the way I want, so I want to, like, you know, exclude her or whatever.

I think, you know, to Jess's point, your mom's is kind of clearly going through something and she's struggling. I mean, you obviously don't like the situation. But is there a way, if you haven't already, to communicate to your mom, listen, I don't even, I really don't care, but I do know you and Eric are a thing. And I don't care.

I just, what I want is a relationship with you and I don't want you to feel like you have to hide it. Because your mom just doesn't want to be judged, which is why she doesn't want to talk about it and why she doesn't want her opinion because she just knows you're going to say something she doesn't want to hear. So how do you communicate to your mom in the short term that like, listen, like, do what you're an adult. Do what you want. I don't have to like your choices for you to do what you want. And try to like have that conversation first so that your mom can maybe let you in. Now that might might open up the door for your mom to tell you stories that you're not interested in hearing. Because like, oh, she's cool with it now.

But that might be a door or a window for you to be like, you can date them all you want. But like just don't do things you wouldn't want me to do with like. someone you know and that like these big financial decisions or whatever or giving him yeah i think that's worth talking about like in a non-attacking non-confrontational way like nick said approach it hey this is your life i don't have to agree with it but your financial decisions and how you're setting up your life for your future and how it could affect like my brother and I kind of is my business. So.

It's tricky. I don't. Because you don't want your mom to, you have to be so careful with your words because like the idea that you're going to tell your mom that he's using you is going to make her feel less than. Yeah. Because it's obvious she's already dealing with some like shame and guilt and embarrassment, which is why she kind of shuts you guys out. It's not because she doesn't love you.

That's not at all why she's doing the things that she is. Legally does who has like this family business is your mom? Was she the sole inheritor of that? Yeah, so it all went to her after my dad passed. And then now that my brother is practicing, he is having a three-year process of it transferring over to him. Okay. So is there anything that could come in the way of stopping that? I guess her not signing it because they have to.

re-sign a contract every year for that to continue to be moved over. Is your brother worried that like she's going to give it to the other guy? I, it can't because he's not, it can't because he can't practice in this field. It's very specific. But on the flip side, she could just totally not continue the transfer to him at all. So it just would stop. So essentially he just would keep working in the. location that he's in, but then just wouldn't transfer over to him as being the

Well, I don't. Yeah, then I mean, I mean, God, if nothing else for self-preservation, you have your brother just, just, you know, not that your mom's your enemy, but like, you know, keep your enemies close type of thing. I just like, yeah, your mom's struggling with something. Keep her. I think you just need to keep keep her close. And in the short run, I, you know, it's like you always hear me to say, do you want to be ready? Do you want to be happy? I mean, I don't know if it does totally applies here, but I don't know if you need immediate in immediate answers right now. If I'm hearing you correctly,

you just need your mom. You want your relationship better with your mom, but like practically speaking, there's this fear or thought that maybe this guy has moving in a nefarious way that he could stop this like transfer of the kind of family legacy and money or whatever from your brother.

We don't want that to happen. So until that happens, let's just like try to keep the peace, keep mom, you know, and you guys connected. She can do it. whatever the fuck she wants with this guy. I think it'll pass, truly.

I do. I think once she starts the actual grieving process, then he will probably phase out. And what you don't want to do is isolate her with him. Yeah. He wants that, right? Like, I don't want to say he's like some evil gaslighting narcissist. But that is the playbook of someone who first tries to get the,

you know, break them away from their support system and their family. And then he will have total control. Don't let that happen. So keep the peace, you know, as embarrassing as it might be for you and your brother, now's not the time to be like, well, if you don't talk to him, I'm not conking to you. I don't know if that's going to get you guys what you want. You know, your mom's birthday party, you don't need to like play a therapist and be like,

well, she's acting happy if I don't. She's probably not happy. You know, like you don't have to be right right now. You can just let your mom live in this delusion for the time being. Because I feel like, yeah, we're playing the long game. Yeah, we're definitely playing the long game. And I definitely recommend and encourage, like, having those conversations with a third party because they can look at both perspectives and help you guys meet in the middle and navigate

the conversation to a place where it's productive and maybe help you even change your approach. Not that anything you're saying is wrong. Like, I totally agree with everything you're feeling. I just think it's hard for her to like face and acknowledge right now. So yeah, maybe try and figure out how you can have that third party help you guys with some of these conversations. Maybe when you say it, it's more like, hey, mom, crazy idea. But I've been struggling with like obviously the loss of what I don't know how you want to say it. But I make her feel like she's going for you with you rather than you're like, can I come and shadow you on your therapy?

Yeah. Like try to make her feel like she's going for you with you. feel like you're like this is an idea that you have and you're hoping that she can do it with you because like you know what I'm saying like some kind of version of that like could you do that yeah where she doesn't feel like she's being ambushed yeah yeah I mean I definitely think that that's something that she would struggle with for sure in feeling like it would be for other reasons because she's got to know that she's just been hiding this for such a long time I mean it's been over a year that any of this has been brought up.

So, like, I know that she feels like she's hiding something. So it definitely is tricky to approach her about the therapy stuff, only because I do think she would immediately kind of start questioning a lot of why. Maybe step one is to try to reconnect with your mom on a more casual friend level and get to the point where you make it a safe place for your mom. to acknowledge the truth in a place where you don't immediately judge. Yeah. And you're just like, you know what, Mom?

I just want you happy. And if this is you happy, whatever. Like, you know, but you can tell me. It's totally cool. And like, and then create that safe environment so that down the road maybe, you know. Because again, I think if you're thinking in the time, like we're playing the long game here, all we really care about is ultimately your mom and your relationship and her making some poor finance. Like, you don't, you don't want her making decisions.

get a real stuck that really affect her relationship with you and your brother in a way that she can't take back yeah you know yeah i guess that's where it's toughest because i feel like she already has like done that like she can't take back a lot of the things like what i just feel like she has just continuously lied about so many different things i mean it's hurtful and i'm not i'm just saying what i mean is like literally allowing this guy to somehow affect the transfer. You know what I'm saying? I mean shit like that. Yeah. I'm not saying it's not okay that your mom lies. I'm just saying like you can give anyone grace and we can try to understand where they're coming from. And maybe there's like, you know, if you get your mom to go to therapy,

there's, there's definitely a conversation that your mom could say to you that would make you make it easier to forgive. And I'm just saying like there's definitely a path forward. And I think in the short term, try to let go of all those millions of conversations. where you felt like your mom didn't show up the way you expected her to. And you don't have to forgive her right now. But if you're thinking in terms of like long term, now, like we're not right now we're not trying to figure out resolution. Right now it's almost like how do we just.

How do we meet her where she is? How do we table this for a time being without making things worse before they can get better? Yeah. Because her getting more and more isolated, I think is going to make things keep getting worse. Well, and so then that kind of goes into a second. secondary question is like what do I do with this letter? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. No, because I think he just probably did that to make her feel good. Well, since your mom isn't acknowledging this existence of this relationship, maybe you could gently use it as a way to be like, mom, I got a letter. And

honestly, I don't care. But like, I know there's something going on. I just like, how do you, again, I'm thinking, how do you get your mom to just slowly start telling you the truth and stop hiding this thing that she's embarrassed of and you're embarrassed and everyone's embarrassed of it existing? How do we, how do we, that's step one is to try to make your mom not feel so guarded and judged by her kids. Because whether you're right or wrong, like that's definitely how she feels. And that's only going to make her be more isolated. But I don't know.

Yeah, but I don't want her looking at the guy because. Because if she doesn't know that he wrote the letter, I don't want her looking at him like he's a hero for doing that. Like she obviously is talking to him. She's got to know. Yeah. She's got to know it exists. Well, for him to write it and say that he apologizes for upsetting you,

like he only knows that because she's talked to him about your feelings about the situation. So. Well, that's a good sign maybe. I just don't trust him to save my life. I don't either. You don't have to trust him. I don't think you need to like talk to him. Again, I'm just saying step one, if I'm hearing you right, your mom is still pretending she's not dating him, right?

Yeah. And so like before you can have any real conversations about anything, you need to deal with reality. And your mom doesn't want to deal with reality. But it makes sense why your mom doesn't want to deal with reality because like she just feels judged and embarrassed. So all I'm saying is step one is to get everyone at least dealing with reality. Yeah. And then get your mom feeling like you don't have to like it. You don't have to prove it.

You're not saying, mom, I want to hear everything about your dating life. But all I'm saying, mom, is like, if you're happy, I'm happy. And that's all we need to talk about it right now. And that's just trying to get yourself in. Yeah. Okay. All right. I might agree with that a little bit.

What do you think she would say if you sat down with her with the letter? I don't even know. I don't even know if you have to center the letter. And again, I'm just spitballing here. But I just knowing that if you think she must know. about this letter. You could just use that, like, hey, mom, I want us to have a closer relationship. I know I've asked you about this before. And I, listen, I honestly don't care. I just want you to be happy. But I don't want you to feel like you have to hide stuff from me. And like, I got a letter

from him. And honestly, whatever. But like, I assume you know. But like, also can we just, I just want you, I just want you to tell me. And I will, I have no real opinion. I just, my only opinion is that you can talk to me, you know, and I may not want to know everything, but let's try to just try to, I don't know, like what would you say to your child, I guess, in a way? You know, like, well, how would you, if you, it's not going to be similar, but if you had a difficult situation where you know your, you know, your kid's a teenager and all you want is them to not run away, you know, like, what would you say to your kid, you know, kind of It's almost you have to bring that kind of energy to that conversation because the goal isn't

to be right. The goal isn't to make them see. It's literally just to deal in reality because right now you don't feel like you're dealing in reality. You show up to your mom and she's in la la land and she's pretending this life that she's building doesn't exist and you're just like, I don't even do what the fuck to do with this. And I think that's step one. Yeah.

Yeah. I just, yeah, I think part of the problem that I'm experiencing is like, I just have, I hold a lot of anger towards this guy. Because I just, I think that he had two years to plan this. Like, I think that he, from the time that my dad knew that he had his cancer, I think that he just was slowly starting to work his way in to find out everything that my mom likes and they're like doing everything that my dad would have done. So I definitely have a ton of anger towards him about the situation. Understandable makes a lot of sense. You could be definitely right. But if you are right, then you got to beat him at his own game. If this motherfucker is patient and calculating, then you're going to have to be patient and calculating.

I don't think being reactive and and calling him out. No, because he's going to be like, well, I just care. Like he's not going to, you're not going to be able to call a space. to spade in him be like, oh, you got me. You know? Yeah. I think you have to play the long game. I hate that. It's so long. I feel like I've been doing this for like 10 years. It's only been two. No, I know. But in the meantime, as hard as it might be, try not to in between the interaction with the mom, your mom's going to do what you. There's a little bit out. There's a lot outside of your control. So you do have other more important things going on in your life. Yeah. I think fake it till you make it

in a sense of like Nick said when you approach her, be like, listen, I know this is going on. I don't care. We know that you hear. You very much care. But I think the more comfortable she feels with you and the more support system she feels like she has outside of this guy, the closer she's going to lean into it and move farther away from him. I think he really is a phase and it'll pass. Yeah, I had that same thought when a lot of them started and just trying to approach it that way too. And whenever, if and when, your mom is ever even thinking about moving on or thinking about being honest with herself and acknowledging that maybe this was just a phase, you don't want to make her resistant to facing that truth because she feels isolated and alone. And she doesn't want to like be able to go to her kids and specifically her daughter, which I imagine would be easier to go to you than her son because she doesn't know what to say to you guys. and she doesn't want to hear the I told you so stuff and things like that.

So like, again, that's why it's really important right now to mend those fences so that she feels still close with you. And there's still a relationship there. And you make it easy for her to not think that you're going to say, I told you so. And that you're not coming in with any judgment so that when she is ready to maybe see things for what they are, she doesn't like, she's not resistant to that. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. think that she, I'm just worried that any decisions that she makes are going to be like

detrimental. And I think that a lot of it is going to be whatever he wants for his life, not what she wants. So that's why it's hard for me to like kind of continue to play that game as I kind of have been for the last year especially just because I'm concerned about her future. But maybe true, but like it's really important for you to deal in facts as much as you can. right like so there's this property right you don't know the logistics you know that she's buying it with him but what is with him mean is she just buying it and letting him have access to it or is she literally buying it with him those are two different very answer right the different answers but you probably can get to the bottom of that right so like get get the information and worry what what you can

worry what you have to worry about what you're kind of doing is potentially catastrophizing an uncomfortable situation and almost trying to convince yourself that you have to care now and it needs resolution immediately. And that may be the truth. It also may not be the truth. And I just don't want you to make a bad situation worse by pushing your mom away and then causing and giving him more access

and control to your mom and almost creating the scenario that you're afraid it could happen. But you don't really have that answer, right? You know, it might just be, I'm getting some good yet sex and she's feeling good about herself and it's really awkward and uncomfortable.

And also feels like a fuck you, of the memory of your dad. And there's all those layers. And that's obviously just upsetting to you. And rightfully so. And then like you feel a certain way, which is all valid. But that doesn't necessarily mean that your mom's in danger or that the family legacy is ultimately in danger.

It's possible. But like let's not catastrophize something that's not actually the case. And if there's a possibility to find out, get the information. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks for the call. A loud story. Please give us updated.

Yeah. You really got to play the long game here. And right now, step one is getting back in with mom and forgetting about if much as you can, try to be your mom's friend. Yeah. Not the daughter in a weird way. I know that's weird to say. It's probably not what you want. But that's step one.

Yep. I agree. Well, I think she's already doing that to me anyway, but not closely. Like my mom doesn't have any friends. so she doesn't have anyone to talk to, which is why I felt like I needed to play the long game as well. But I just think that the more that she kind of continues to choose him over us, that's where it starts to get dicey for me. Because I feel like I'm the kid that is like at the bus stop waiting for my parent to come pick me up. And like they just aren't ever showing up.

So like that's just the continuous game that I've been playing for such a long time that it's like, well, how long? am I going to continue to wait for her to show up before I'm like, I need to put like my children first, you know? There you go. I mean, like, don't get. So put, just put your, that's the, put your children first. Yeah. There's no, there's no scenario which you should be putting your mom first. Right.

100%. It was just, yeah, just an example. But I just, I hate to continue to just like wait for her to just never come in. And I think that she will. I really do. I think she will. You've, unfortunately, like, the roles are kind of reversed and you're taking on, like, a more maternal role right now. 100%.

But that's just this season you guys are in. And, like, one of you is going to have to take the initiative to, like, keep the relationship. And right now that might just have to be you. And there will come a time where you guys can unpack all of this. And I know that she will care to hear it when she has the capacity. But I think right now she's, she's, She's got to start her grieving process first, and she's got to find her place and how she can still be your mom and have this relationship with you while she's got this crazy situation going on with this guy. And for her, she probably feels like she can't have both because she feels so judged and isolated. 100%. I agree. So it's about just and it sucks to feel like you have to be strategic with your mom. But right now it's just about finding a strategic way back in. And then one day you guys are going to be sitting around laughing and you're going to be like,

Hey, do you remember when I told you I didn't really care that you were dating that guy? Yeah, I did. I hated him. And that was the worst thing ever. And you guys will be able to talk about it and unpack it. But you got to start somewhere. Yeah. If I'm hearing you right, we just don't want anything to complicate this transfer to your brother.

Yeah. That's what my husband's been pushing for for a long time is that. Yeah, that's the only thing that really is the big concern right now. I know you would hate this. and it's not ideal, but if your mom decides to keep dating this guy, and if she wants to, like, spend her money on him, that's her choice. It's, like, not yours. As long as your brother gets what's his and things like that.

But, you know, again, not ideal. I'm not saying that's going to happen, but, like, you know, you can't, you know, that's, it's her life, you know, and ultimately she, she's allowed to live it. And I don't want you get so wrapped up on, on your mom's choices for her life that you forget about your own. Yeah, and that's been our argument is like my husband and I and even my brother will sit here and we'll have conversations about the same thing for hours and hours and hours. And it's like, well, how long are we going to continue to do this? Like she doesn't even want to be with us. She's just wanting to continue on having this relationship, which is what she's allowed to do.

But it's just not continuing to have a relationship with us. And we just kind of thought that we would all be grieving together. Instead, she is kind of having this continuance of the avoidance around it. So it's assuming that she even will grieve at a certain point because I think that her moving on to a different location and building out there is going to be a time for her to just move forward and not even think about it is what I think it's going to have. I'm no expert in this stuff, but I feel like eventually things catch up with you. They do. Yeah. One can only help.

In the meantime, play the long game. Yeah. Preserve your energy. I think be mindful of the conversations you, your brother and your husband are having. And I think these are valid questions is how much time should we be king, like why are we arguing with each other?

And play the long game and just try to create a safer place for your mom to open up to you. Because again, she does right now, you're worried about her like, when is she ever going to grieve? Right now, it's she she is building a world where it's making her difficult and difficult to do and you're not necessarily helping i'm not saying and i get why you're frustrated and your mom is making it very

difficult for you to help nevertheless like you know i'm sure your mom feels your resentment and feels your judgment and feels your anger and and you know it's pushing her probably further away yeah i i I feel like I kind of got a pushback from her about it a long time ago, so I just don't even bring it up anymore. All of our transactions with each other are pretty like friendship-wise. It's nothing super crazy, like, if that makes sense. I don't feel like I'm bringing it up constantly with her. Because I don't even feel like I can talk about my dad with her. So it really is just kind of the, hey, how are you? with a tech situation. Maybe that's how you get mom to go to therapy. So you want to talk more, maybe it's focused on your dad. I'm having a hard time. Could you help me, mom?

Improving the relationship. Yeah. Because I think she thinks that it's fine. Who knows? I mean, death is a very difficult thing to process. And I don't think there's a perfect way. And I think everyone does it differently. So.

Yeah. But she is your mom. And if you ask for help to grieve the loss of your father, maybe that's a world where she could step up. I don't really know if she knows how to be a mom only because her mom also isn't very present. So I think a lot of this is stemming from how she was growing up. So we'll see. Well, I'm sorry going through this.

I'll be very, very, very difficult. But yeah, hopefully this was helpful. It's such a tricky situation. This is not like a black and white like move on, have my answer. It's all good. It's just, it's very complicated. Just try not to make a bad situation worse because this is one of those things where, like, you, you have logic and reason on your side and that can be dangerous. Yeah.

Just to like, feeling right and knowing you're right can be very dangerous because people don't care. And sometimes being right isn't going to help with the reason, you know, you know what I'm saying? So like timing is kind of everything when it comes to like that. So play long again. Yeah. A quick message from today's sponsor, the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. Well, you know that you love your pets. And the thing about pets is you want to make sure they are taking care of just like any member of your family.

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Bye. Thanks. Have a good one. You too. How's it going? Hi. My name is Nora. I'm 27 years old and I want to know how I can preserve a relationship with my stepdaughter

when I don't have contact with her and she hasn't met her brother yet. Walk me through the relationship dynamic. Okay. So I ended up in a relationship with her father a few years back. was a bit of an age gap. Her mom and my partner were going through a divorce at the time. And I was really close with the daughter of said marriage. And we would do like homework together. I would go to all of her games. It was a really positive relationship. But as soon as the divorce got serious, to be clear, I was friends with the father before the divorce started.

Once the divorce got serious, I started to end up having a relationship with a dad that was more than just friends. Of course, as one could expect, the mom ended up getting not so happy about that and then started getting the daughter involved in saying horrible things about her father, myself, to make sure that she could just hurt him, essentially. The mom was never really present in her life up to that point. As soon as she found out that he was dating other people, then she started basically coaching her in alien. alienating her from us. And as of this point, her mom has successfully kept her away from us for a year and a half because she is in the legal system and knows how to work it. How old is your stepdaughter? She's 12. And you guys now have a kid together? Yeah. So about a year ago, I had given birth to my first child. She was an only child. So she was really excited. to have a sibling, like the most excited. And since it was during the midst of their messy divorce,

she was really excited to have something to look forward to. But as soon as the mom found out, she went and had her daughter say things that weren't true to the court to get her way. And now she hasn't even had a relationship with her father since. And it's been really heartbreaking, especially since he was the primary caregiver. Your husband has no, like no parental rights right now? So he has what they call like decision-making custody, but just no visitation rights.

He literally doesn't have a record of any sort. I don't even know how else to say it. The judge literally said that it's emotional abuse to bring in a new child into a child's life. I wish I was making that up. What? Yeah, they don't see him as safe to be around her because she's been saying. Do you feel comfortable? It's totally fun if you don't sharing what, whatever the accusation.

was it allowed the courts to decide what they decided? There was a lot. Like there's literally a list that her mom writes down and has her say. The one that really got her when the fires were happening in L.A., she said that he threatened her by saying the next time I see you, good luck, essentially. There was also accusations of saying that, like, he stole her clothes, stole her earrings. His daughters or his ex-wives? his daughters saying all of that.

Why would he steal his daughter's gold? She accused him of stealing her earrings that were gold and then said that he gave them to me. And I'm allergic to gold. So that was interesting. I sent images over of like my relationship with this girl and proof like from the court. Because I feel like it's unbelievable, unless you see it, because it is, pretty insane, but the fact that she's able to get away with this is really frustrating. The drama between them is really between them. She can attack me all she wants. She's tried to physically attack me

at like public events. She will do anything to keep me away from her. My biggest concern is the fact that I had a really close relationship with this girl. And the last time I saw her, she told us that her mom was going to file for sole physical custody or whatever and that she loved me and that she was going to miss me and that she was really sad because she wasn't going to be able to meet her brother. And I'm sad because I don't know if her mom has brainwashed her enough to think that like I don't love her, that I don't care, that she's turned her against me, which I'm more than willing to do whatever it takes to wait and like have a relationship with her, even if she does hate me now, I would go through a million, like, therapists to make, to make our relationship whole again.

But the fact that I can't even, like, talk to her or even let her have a relationship with her younger brother is really frustrating and heartbreaking. And the fact that the court allows that to happen, like separate families is more frustrating. What about the relationship with her and her, and Dan? That's the most heartbreaking. I'm trying to be, I really don't want to get, I'm trying to respect everyone in this situation, including the ex-wife. But She only gets to speak to him for five minutes, three times a week. The mom isn't supposed to be in the room, but she is, and she records everything. She tells her what to say.

They have therapy once a month, and the mom makes her lie to the therapist, and the therapist is supposed to encourage a relationship between the two of them, but she thinks it's harmful. And I sent this over because I feel like I have to prove it. Like I sent over like documentation of that these are the words that they use that it is emotionally abusive to bring a sibling that a child didn't want or something like that. That's crazy. How is that? I also want to know how to be a good partner to my partner to during this time because it's been really hard.

Seeing him go through this. Like his ex was awarded to a move away request to move. his daughter away from where he lives. And because of that, now he has no physical contact with her. Every time he talks to her is through FaceTime or through remote sessions. And even the therapist has seen her mom in the room, but she doesn't care.

Is it your suspicion that this is a court appointed therapist that somehow your mom knows? Like, I know there's a lot of bad therapists out there, but how, why do you feel like this therapist, like, is in on it from your perspective? I don't know if she's in on it. I feel partly responsible because they gave him, the court gave him the choice to pick three therapists that the other side, the other side would get to choose from. And I was looking for the best fit for them.

And I thought this person would be a good fit for them. And unfortunately, after the mom started having the daughter say a lot of things, like basically making it look like we had an affair, making it look like that. I, like, vandalized her property because that was one of the other things. She would break things in her house and, like, blame it on me saying I did that, even though we had video proof. She would have her daughter say that to the therapist. And I think, you know, everyone's human. They have their own, like, beliefs and morals. And I think that it tainted her image of her dad as, like, a cheater, essentially and, like, as a bad person.

So she's letting that get in the way of her clinical judgment. But that's your opinion, I'm assuming, right? That's my opinion. Like I said, I can't say for sure. I've spoken to multiple professionals. My partner and I were also in family counseling. And our therapist has tried to reach out to this therapist, but she refuses to communicate with anyone other than the child's therapist. Yeah, do you not have access to your stepdaughter's therapist? Like has your husband tried to? explain his side to that therapist? This is a frustrating part. She says she doesn't believe in looking at evidence. She doesn't need to see photos.

She doesn't need to see proof. All she cares about is what the child says. And I feel like that is not the way it's supposed to go. It's so strange because it feels like the situation is being handled like your partner has no parental rights. I feel like he's being treated like his parental rights have completely been terminated. I remember hearing how like California actually shockingly is like they're more progressive in terms of father's rights versus. Well, I mean, that's what I was going to say. North Carolina is like that too.

And it's like if there's a father who is just showing up and saying he wants to be involved, it's almost automatically awarded that he like 50, 50 custody. Like the mom will usually get primary, which is technically like who the decision. decision makers. And I'm speaking in terms of like, because my daughter's dad and I are not together. So I know a little bit about the legalities of it. And how you're explaining this situation, I've just never heard anything like it unless, if you don't mind me asking, unless there was something egregious that happened that your partner was involved in that they were able to prove that his daughter was in harm's way or being neglected or something like that. No, the only thing that they say was putting in harm to his is that he got into a relationship to. soon. Because in California, people are cheating all the time. Well, I should add another layer. Normally, this doesn't happen.

I've heard you talk on this show a bit about, like, family court systems. Like, so Guardian ad litemes, that's basically the child's appointed a lawyer voice of the child. Yeah, yeah. Emily Baker brought that up when we were talking about the Taylor Frankie Paul stuff. Yeah. So she has one of those. And her mom paid her. And she's her mom's friend.

Well, they're unpaid. So that's no, no, she hired her and the court approved it. And so anything. Either way, there's a connection. That's also strange because it's usually like an unbiased. I mean, I guess what she's saying is that without giving way too much detail is mom is somehow connected. I think that. And, you know, not to be the conspiracy theory guy, but I do think access to power is quite powerful.

Yeah, but I mean, still, I feel like, did your, did your partner have an attorney? He did. They maxed out all of his funds, essentially. He was desperate and hired the first attorney he could get during the holidays because he came home one day and his ex-wife had left with the daughter and she said she wasn't coming back with her. So he was trying to get her back home. So he hired the first attorney he could get, but the attorney wasn't very good. No, that's what I'm thinking. Is the ex-wife, does she have more financial means than your husband?

Yeah, she was the primary income earner. He actually took time off work to take care of the daughter. When I first met him, I thought he was a single parent. I had no idea that there was even like a mom in the picture because I just never saw her. And I would go to like all of her games and stuff and I'd never see her. And were they separated or you guys were just friends? And so he and I were just friends. They separated eventually, but we didn't start dating or even getting romantic until after the divorce was filed.

I saw him as genuinely just a good friend and I saw his daughter kind of like I saw a little bit of myself in her. Like we had just a really strong bond and I felt like I could understand her and she understood me in a way that was very special. Well, listen, I mean, it sounds, I mean, all this legal stuff, Asai, which certainly were knowing. experts and yeah i mean all i can do is acknowledge what you're tellings agree that it sounds very bizarre and um and and and difficult if mom is really lying to her you know i don't know if there's a short-term solution unfortunately right um but i do think you know kids are smarter than you realize and and if mom's really lying and she's you know um and the story you've told about about like, you know, I'm sad. I'm not going to be able to see my brother. You know, she's still,

she's definitely old enough to remember this moment. She's going to have some questions. And this sounds probably crazy. Like, you know, she's only six years away from being an adult. I've been counting five years and five months away. Right. You know, and I think all you can do right now is to not make a bad situation worse. Eventually, she's going to want to know the truth, you know. And eventually she's going to start answering. She's going to, going to start asking questions. And she's, things are going to start like not adding up to her. So my daughter is 13 and her dad and I haven't been together since she was about 15 months. And she's, you know, she's got a couple years before she's able to like make her own decisions for herself.

But she is at the age where she's able to share like what her preference is and where she wants to be. And even though you guys aren't in contact with her and I'm so sorry about that. Like that is horrible. Like Nick said, she's only a couple years away from kind of being able to make those decisions for herself. And I promise you, she's observing everything. And even if there has been a little bit of brainwashing, there's some things about this whole situation that just don't add up. And she's going to look for her own answers and her own solutions to things. And I think that's the only thing you can find peace in knowing right now. Also, I think the best thing you can can do like in the position you're in is continue to just be a good supportive partner because

at the end of the day like unfortunately as much as you love her like you don't have any parental rights so it it can't be like your battle to fight I think maybe just support your partner and however he can pursue this with his daughter because that's that's going to be his place to take the initiative because there's like nothing that you can do as the step parent, unfortunately. Yeah. And I understand that. I've come to terms of that. It's pretty much the main topic of my therapy sessions. But I think one thing, there is a disconnect and understanding. So it's not that her mom is lying to her. She's making her daughter lie. And she knows their lies. Like she's making her say all these accusations that are just physically not possible. How do you know that's true? Because she told us when she

when we were still able to see her in person, she would tell us, oh yeah, my mom threatened this if I didn't say this to the guardian ad litem. And if I didn't tell the court this, then she threatened, like, she threatened me with this.

Too bad you weren't recording that. No, I did, and they wouldn't admit it. They wouldn't. Yeah, you can't. Because you can't record a minor?

Being able to submit things. Even though her mom does that all the time, and they let her admit all of her stuff. I mean, she literally. Is she a lawyer or something? Her mom's a lawyer. She, even I'm a bugged the house and was recording every conversation that her partner and I had when I was visiting, every move that we had.

There's like weeks and weeks of footage there and they're able to use those audio recordings. I think that your partner should explore. I mean, there's like family attorneys that will help with cases like this for sometimes little. to no cost, especially if, like, it sounds like there's some mental and emotional abuse going on with his daughter. I think he should continue to explore his options. Like, if his parental rights have not been terminated, like, there is a lot he can do. If she's, you know, an attorney, then she does have a lot more knowledge and, I guess, resources than you guys have. But, like, he's not powerless. Yeah, I mean, if what you're saying, because I'm not believing you, it does seem like a crazy story.

but if what you're saying is all true, then it sounds like there's some real, like, bad shit going on and an abuse of power, both as hurt from a legal profession and as a mother. And imagine it must be very scary to go up against that. But yeah, to Jess's point, it's like, man, the situation seems dark. And I get the whole logic of like,

no, no, no, don't apologize. They're preaching the call. I get this whole situation. Like, you know, I get it. It makes sense, like, why you can't submit something. recording a minor, but like, if there is literally evidence of a child saying, I'm being told to lie. Yeah.

And like how, like how the move was approved and how like their conversations even have to be monitored, I don't understand. They don't have to be. They said that it's supposed to be. They were saying that I'm a, they said dad is supposed to be able to have like, un like monitored calls with the daughter. He's not a threat. Like can he like,

Does she play sports? Yes, but is he allowed to go? He had to fight for that to go because the mom was saying, oh, she's uncomfortable with you being there. She's not, she's mad at you for having a sibling she didn't want. She wants nothing to do with you. She doesn't want to see her partner. I said cannot grab, grasp how, how. No, I feel like they're treating him like he's.

My sister don't want me born. Right. That's what I'm saying. They're treating him like something egregious happened. I've never heard I've never heard of anything like this and people cheat I mean like what how many like it's like not great not you know but like that I don't see how that is used against people when it comes to custody of people I think it's fairly common for lawyers to take advantage of the legal system when they're the ones who know the law and they're going up against someone who doesn't and then all their friends are lawyers and all the lawyers know all the judges and it's like it can for sure and she and her lawyers are great like I mean from a third part of party. Like, they didn't really know how to argue. They make his and I's relationship sound awful. Yeah. I got it. I'm just, that's like, that's just, they're good at their jobs. I guess, but like, it's also, I thought it was literally not a crime. Unfortunately, it may be like, it may be like taboo. It may be like your church might not be down to fuck with it, but like legally, like. I don't know. I've just never heard of that affecting a custody situation unless the child actually is.

in danger. But good lawyers, I guess are good lawyers. I don't know. Yeah, but there's got to be, if there's someone listening to this that's involved in family law, there's got to be someone that can help. If his parental rights have not been completely terminated, there's a lot he can do. They still have 50-50 say on what she does and whatnot. He just doesn't have, say, he just can't see her.

That's crazy. No, it's crazy. There's got to be someone that can help him. I would encourage you to encourage him to keep exploring his. And if you're listening and you know anything about family law. please that all being said to jess's point into our point like what you called in for i this you really probably you really have to be i guess careful one uh and how you like move but you do like you i took a risk even coming on here but you have your son um like i guess focus on what's in front of you

and i got i mean like listen if you told me i had to wait six years to talk to my daughter i would not be like an acceptable. Oh no. Situation. Not happening. But yeah, just don't make a bad situation. Like give her every reason to wonder why I don't have a relation with my father. You know? Yeah, find peace of knowing.

Make it very difficult for her to, like even if you like now you know as a 12 year old, she knows their lies. But who knows? She's only 12. And like how she remembers things growing up, it could change. You know, if he's allowed to show up to the baseball games, I think you should show up to the baseball games. Yeah, 100%. If he just kind of like tucks his tail between his life,

that's not going to look good. Even if he's off to the distance, you know, but like just no, you know, like, it's like finding that balance to not be aggressive and confrontational with her and not being like an agitator. Yeah. He's hanging out in the parking lot on the outfield,

but like as long as she like knows he's there because maybe she slips and almost admits it to her daughter or just like maybe she cleanses it. But like he kept showing up and he kept trying to have this relationship. any non-aggressive, non-kind of agitating way that makes him, you know, lets her know that he didn't quit because, and we, I mean, our first call different, but similar. And it made me, like, remind me of my first girlfriend who had a very complicated relationship with her father and

her mom would kind of plant some seeds of doubt. But like, what you don't want is for your husband to give up in some way and emit defeat. And then it allows mom to plant more narratives of, like, He, you know, he didn't care and blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. He needs to continue to pursue that relationship however he can. Yeah. And it's obviously very hard and she's making it harder, it sounds like, but he needs to do whatever he can to not just tuck his tail between his legs. And yeah.

Oh, he's not that kind of a person. He will do whatever. He takes every chance he gets. Like, he even, like, finds excuses being like, oh, I got some new clothes for her that, you know, or like got some new clothes that from my family. I would love to just drop these off to like just to see her. Like, you know, on the whole like going to the baseball games and that he was dropping off some gear for her. And my son and I were also in the area. We were just hanging out at like the playground.

And the mom actually ended up coming to approach us and started taking pictures of us and yelling at us in front of the entire team saying that like we're not welcome here. everyone knows that he has no custody, that he has no rights. She's been very vocal with everybody about. But that sounds insane. How do the people around respond to that? They're just in shock most of the time. But she's that kind of a person. I think they know her to be like that.

I don't know. It's pretty crazy. No, I know. But at least I guess maybe you have that going for you because she sounds crazy. and if she's really acting this way I mean again like in California like I forget out California and nowadays

divorce is common co-parenting is common most people are dealing with it and not dealing with it it's obviously very messy but people get remarried even if there was an affair people have kids and here you are

with your kid showing up to a game and she's out there yelling at you and making all these accusations and it just sounds unhinged and let her just keep acting unhinged. Well, like, you know, just you can't, I don't know. I don't know if that's like helpful, but it just sounds, it sounds so crazy. Yeah. No, I mean, she literally like came up to us and was, she's like, I know all about you and your

fucked up family and all this stuff to me like that didn't even really make any sense. And I was trying to de-escalate it because obviously at the time, my child wasn't even a year. And I was like, there's no restraining order. Can you please not make this about? you. Can you please like this is not about you? This is not about me. Can you please not make this about you? Because I don't want conflict and I also don't want to be an example to my son that like I engage in that kind of banter. I could just see see the daughter just like wanting to hide.

Like it was it was really heartbreaking and she does that. And then they have a co-parenting counselor that was made aware of the situation. And then the mom didn't even deny it. She like on email like didn't deny it. She said she was like, yeah, well I'm going to. She's like, she's like, like I would rather die than have my daughter have a relationship with that family, with her father, with her brother. She wrote that down? She said that in person and then we wrote that down, like saying that this is the transcripts about what she said.

And she didn't deny that to the therapist. Like, how was that not? Like, a parent admitting they would rather like choose literal violence potentially than be reasonable. And I mean, that's why they got divorced too, because she has a history of being aggressive. Well, listen, I'm sorry we don't have more answers for you when it comes to like the whole legal aspect.

But again, if someone's listening and wants to reach out, maybe we can, I don't know, give you some advice. But it does seem like you guys are resource deprived and outgunned, so to speak, and outmuscled when you're dealing with someone who apparently has a lot of access to legal information knowledge and lawyers and judges. And to whatever degree that happens out there is,

it's a real shame but in the meantime do what you can and i and i and i probably say that without with when it sounds like really helpless but you're only five and a half years away and i know that sounds like eternity right now but let's you know to whatever degree you can make sure it's it's it's five and a half years and and not and not 10 you know um and and make it easy for for the child to like, you know, want to, want to reach back out whenever she can make her own choices. Because even when she is 18, she's going to still have the manipulative controlling mother that she is. And, you know, there'll obviously be some damage there. And it won't be easy.

It won't be just as easy to be like, I'm 18. I'm calling dad. That's what I told him, too. I actually really wanted him to be on this call. And unfortunately, he couldn't make it. But I agree. Yeah, it's going to take time. Am I crazy for like taking videos of like my son's milestones and being like mentioning her name being like, hey, look. Yeah, you shouldn't do that. You should do that.

Oh, wait. Wait, who are you doing that too? Like you're not putting that post in that public. Right. No, no, no. I'm just keeping them in my files like for later. So that way eventually when they do like, we do reconnect. I can be like, hey, see, like I was thinking about you and like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think yeah. Yeah, of course, right. I mean. Yeah, whatever you, whatever helps you cope, I think is fine. I would never post anything about her. I mean, my, I don't even post my partner online because I just don't really like the drama of it. But like, you know, when she goes in a, she sounds like she's in middle school, but high school, like, as much as he legally can, show up.

Yeah. You know, be at the school plays. Be at the soccer games. Be, again, keep his distance. Don't be an agitator. you know, but just be around. So she will never have a narrative that dad wasn't there. And it will look like he tried on some version.

And the older she gets, the more, you know, when you get older, then she'll have friends who have parents and other people who have divorces. And she will be like, my situation doesn't look like anyone else's, you know. And make it easy for her, the child, to ask questions when she's capable of asking. asking these questions if that makes any sense? It does. I just, I feel like you said earlier, like powerless is definitely the word I would use. What's hard to is that my partner wants to also have her have a relationship with us.

Like he wants us all to be a big family and everything. And he doesn't care if it has to take time to get to that point. But I think it's also frustrating. No, no, no. He wants his daughter to be able to have a relationship with me, my son. Yeah. And him, like, and he'll ask, like, hey, if I can go to this, can I bring them with? She doesn't have to say hi to them or anything like that.

And when that was approved, then that whole encounter happened. And so that since then, we haven't felt safe enough to go. Yeah, I mean, baby steps. Yeah, I mean, what's weird to is that in the, like, in the written order, it says that he basically has to keep us separate, like me and her brother. her separate from each other. Like there shouldn't be any contact with us, which I don't agree with. Yeah, that, that, that sounds crazy. It's like you're making him choose between us, which I think is wrong.

Yeah, no, totally. But I think, I do think right now the most important relationship that you have at least a little bit of control access to is your husband and her, his daughter. you know that's the bond that matters the most you're going to have to be a little bit more patient and the good news is is you know kids don't remember much at one two or three years old I thought you were talking like if you're you know

if your son has to wait till he's six to have you know you know what I'm saying it's again this none of this is ideal and I'm not I'm trying to paint up yeah like if you have to sacrifice a little bit and your son has to sacrifice a little bit so that your husband has a clearer path to have some kind of civility so that he can have some kind of relationship with his daughter, then I think that would matter most. And that I'm sure will be painful for you and no doubt be sad. But again, if we're thinking about long term in the long

game, his ability to stay in the picture, have some kind of presence in his daughter life, his daughter's life, even if you have to take a backseat that won't feel fair, it won't be fair. But it might be the best for you guys in the long term because then, again, when she's 18, you know, then at least you have options. Or 20 or 30, depending on when she's able to actually break free. Sure. But the best, better relationship she has with dad, the more, you know, she's going to, like, listen, as an 18-year-old girl, she's going to want to look for reasons to have a relationship

with her daughter. And maybe mom will lie. Maybe mom will tell some crazy lies. but he just has to go out of his way to make it so hard to believe and show up so that it isn't 20 or 30, you know. But I've seen situations not like, not exactly like this, but we're, mom, it's so impossible to have a relationship. Dad gives up. Dad leaves the picture. Mom plants a bunch of seeds of doubt and, and it makes it easier for the kid to believe the lies. I mean, that's why I'm in love with him. He's the kind of dad that does the non-traditional thing of like just leave. when things get hard. I mean, he literally like blew up all of his finances just to keep going to

court just to fight for her, even for just a five-minute phone call, even just for a FaceTime call. Like, he'll do anything to have her in his life no matter what. I mean, like I said, they were like a unit, like the primary, like they were best friends. And it's just so hard to see how things ended up where they are right now. I think another thing, too, is that I did want to also bring up is that I am having some feelings of guilt, and I hate to say this, but like, the lawyers and the therapists have made it sound like I was selfish for having another child or that like it was not fair to the daughter to have another child. And I'm like, how can that, how can a child be like not a blessing, you know? I mean, yeah, it's crazy. I don't, I don't, I don't, I can't make sense of

something that makes no sense. So I don't try to make sense of it. It's crazy. I mean, but I'm also having it. So we're expecting another one too and I'm terrified of it. Remember last time when she found out I was pregnant, that's when she filed for sole physical custody. Before that, she already had had him legally kicked out of the house because of her vandalizing the property saying that he did that. And he only got to see her like every other weekend.

But then even that was taken away at the moment she found out that he was having another kid. And I'm worried now that he basically has nothing other than, oh, she gets to do this extracurricular activity or like go to this tutor or have this school or whatever. And like I've seen things go from bad to worse to worse and worse even if you don't think it could get worse. And I'm worried that like I want to celebrate this baby that is coming. And I don't want to feel like it's a negative thing. But like how do I protect that?

And also how do I? I don't want to feel ashamed like my family to feel ashamed of like having like this big secret. Like I've, do you get what I'm saying? I'm sorry if I'm going to go. No, I totally do. I mean, listen, I don't have a good answer. Other than the fact that, like, it's obviously a blessing and congratulations. It's a beautiful thing that you what you guys have.

I can't make sense of the court's ruling. So, like, I don't. And you can't control whatever narrative she's going to tell. I think you just have to find peace in knowing, like, your stepdaughter is going to form her own opinion. And for all you know, she already has one. And she's going to find her way back. to you guys if your partner keeps the door and those lines of communication open. And you're right.

Your son and your baby you guys are about to have is nothing short of a blessing. And you shouldn't feel ashamed of it. And if for some reason you being pregnant again takes things from bad to worse, there's nothing that you can do about that. Like I think your partner should, maybe not have gotten pregnant in the first place, which is ridiculous. No, that's not. See, that's what you can't do. You can't do that. It's obviously, again, it's a blessing.

You're growing your family. Your child needs you. Both of your child needs you. And that's what you can control to just this point. It's like you can show up as a mom to your kids. And it must, I don't doubt the guilt you and your husband have, you know, not being able to be there for his daughter and your stepdaughter. But like, and again, I say this without knowing what I would do in your shoes. So, you know, God bless you.

Because I'm sure it must just. be a nightmare. But and also like, I don't know, you're right. That's a very powerful quote that you're like, you know, for things to get worse when you don't think they can get worse is a very scary feeling. So I don't want to tell you not to worry because clearly you tried that before. And it got worse. But I don't know.

Like, and again, I'm trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. Like, well, if the court blames, you know, that's why they took some away of his rights, but does it take his rights to make decisions for his daughter? Because you guys, I don't know. It doesn't make any sense. No, I mean, like, how can you give someone like 50% like decision making rulings? And then, but oh, you can't see her. But who is saying that?

If he was granted 50, if he had a 50-50 custody agreement, then there's no way he should be getting like bulldozed like he is. It just doesn't. He should seek and do some research on, like, family advocacy. And even if he can't afford another attorney, I know that there are resources for people who don't have resources to pay for them that can at the very least educate him on what his rights are. Because I think that's another thing is he doesn't have a very good understanding of, like, how much power and say he actually does have. and maybe he just avoids doing more just to kind of like not rock the boat with the mom. I'm sure she's very scary. Yeah, it sounds like that.

Like, well, she will always say like in the court, like I have unlimited resources. She can't control herself. She will like, she like swears in court at the judge. But she gets, it's literally bizarre. Like she gets away with it. And I think what's hard for me too is like this is a whole other thing. But like you were saying to like look out for advocacy groups for him. him. He spends every time he can to like just get like into these support groups and like learn all

this stuff and then they give him hope and then he'll file something and then it goes against him. It's like the law isn't working the way it's supposed to. And like I said, I'm not a, I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, but like I also know the reality of who this woman is and the influence she has. Like I'm not blind to that. But like anybody who like reads like, the order that they have for their divorce. It's like pretty obvious. It's like, wow, mom is clearly making the daughter say all this stuff and keeping her away from dad that shouldn't be happening. It's also like why give them 50-50 in terms of like making decisions, but like he can't see her.

Oh, he's not a threat. He has no criminal record. Oh, but he shouldn't see her. I can't believe he had another child. I can't believe he got into a new relationship. Like, what? Yeah, no, it sounds, you know, sounds terrible. But you can't, I guess to answer your last question before we let you go is like the idea that you're going to like, you know, feel shame or guilt about your current pregnancy or, or just like at some point you're just going to have to choose to be the best parents you can be to your kids that you are able to parent.

And as is impossible it is to be forced to make this decision, there's a light at the end of the tunnel and that. is five and a half years from now if if nothing better happens and he will keep fighting and it doesn't mean you stop trying and maybe there's a different advocacy group or whatever but what you can't what you don't want us to do is let this current situation deteriorate your your family that you do have um and let this become such a toxic situation that you guys can't show up for each other you can't show up for the kids that you do have it creates resentment and frustration and your family because you just got to survive in the next five and a half years

and do what you can and put all your love and your kids and again he's got to do what he can for his daughter and show up in ways that allow her to see the truth in the long run and not be a threat and not be an agitator

and let mom keep being crazy I think there's a lot of daughters who have challenging relationships their mom grow up to like see a clear picture of how mom was. Yeah. And make that really easy for her to see when she's old enough to see it. How would you recommend I show up as a partner to my partner? Because I feel like I want to be also like he's the one he's really going through it too. Like yeah, I'm heartbroken. I feel completely powerless. But sometimes I think I'm being helpful. But like there's I feel like there's also like nothing I can do. But I want to do something to like.

make him feel better. Like he's the love of my life and seeing that this like destroy him is really hard. Give him hope. Give him encouragement, you know? Like I would, you know, not that you're doing it, try not to center your feelings and sadness, validate his, encourage him, you know. Same things I'm kind of saying to you. Just do what you can.

We'll get through this, you know. I know, don't try to invalidate his experience by like obviously saying like, you know, it's just it's a lot of that and remind him why you did fall in love with them and remind him of how he shows up for your guys' kids and, you know, keep giving him hope, be a cheerleader and remind him that there's light at the end of the tunnel, you know, and he's going to get his patience through you, you know, what you don't want to do, and I'm not, you know, is to let him know how sad you are about, you know, like you can be sad without making him feel. like he has to take care of you during the situation. Like this is something... I know, that's what my therapist is for. Yeah. He doesn't need to carry that.

So there you go. So it sounds like you're doing whatever you can, you know. But I think you just, you have to accept that this is going to maybe be a long battle. And maybe there are just going to be days where you have to... I'm sure there's an element, especially for your husband and you, that not worrying about it and not stressing about it almost feels like you're giving up and abandoning hope and abandoning her. You nailed it, yeah.

You have to acknowledge that that's not the case and that you're only going to hurt yourself. And if you can't control your literal ability to see her, again, as crazy as it sounds, you almost have to start planning for the future, planning for five years from now, and just make sure that you guys are there at the finish line when she's able to,

show up there too. Yeah. And even though it feels like there's like a lot of time that might be lost, there's going to be even more time that there is for you guys to have time to make up for it and make new memories. And it seems like it's far away, but you've got more life ahead of you guys than you do behind you in this situation. It's just not fair to her or to anyone in the situation. No, I know. But that those, that's a thought that. That's a thought that. unfortunately as valid as it is isn't helpful you know because when you think about fairness it's it's crippling yeah well yeah i mean clearly it's fair to take away any right to see another parent for no reason but i'm sorry it sounds like a nightmare um yeah and i know this isn't like your usual

um a type of my wheel is but i appreciate you for hearing me out honestly just even being able to say it out loud because I feel like I've been, I don't share this with literally anyone. Like, this is a part of my life that I keep, like, free private. Like I, like I said, like no one on social media even knows that my partner exists. Nobody really knows about her because I want to respect everyone's privacy. It's also, I don't want, if I can avoid evolving any child and any kind of drama I can, I will. It means a lot for me to be actually able to say something to share because I feel like I've been silenced this whole time. And I don't have a lot of like parent friends my age that can relate to this kind of stuff,

especially because I have an age gap relationship, you could say. So it's not easy. Yeah, no. I mean, listen, also, I don't know how many people can relate to this. This is the same's literally crazy. The only thing it reminds me of is that dirty John thing where he was a lawyer. And having that power was something that he really took advantage of. I've never seen that, but I'll take your word for it.

Yeah. I wouldn't watch it. It's not helpful. Yeah. Well, I am sorry you're going through this, but congratulations on your pregnancy. And listen, yeah, like stress obviously is something right now you really need to try to avoid. And so as much as you can, I think there is some kind of level of acceptance about the current situation that you have to find. And that doesn't mean you're giving up.

you kind of have to try to almost set it down for a second, uh, rather than like, be something that just like, where's the fuck out of you and, and, and, and literally affect your children's life.

So like, you got to, you got to put that first right now and that's not you guys giving up. One last thing, because this is a new pregnancy and a new child, what would you say is the best way for her father to tell her or for it to get out there? Because I don't want it to be treated like a secret, like I said.

It's some negative thing, given the parameters he has. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I hate to say it, but right now, I think he should follow whatever rules are in place, which is as crazy as they sound? I don't, I don't know. Yeah, but like, do you think it would be better to do it in therapy with that posted therapist or do it over FaceTime when the mom's in the room? Like, those are the options. Because I'd also don't want her to find out after the baby's born and be like, oh,

I didn't even know that this was happening, you know? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I've ever heard you say. I don't know. I know what I don't know. And I don't know the answers to that stuff. Maybe.

Sorry to put you guys in that kind of position. No. Well, when you frame it, like the evil therapist or the evil stuff. I mean, it really sounds like a bad Disney movie. I don't think she's an interesting person. And I don't think she has much experience. I think she's like in her third. I don't know how long she's been practicing, but she's young.

Yeah, lesson learned. I mean, listen, everyone has to start somewhere, but there seems to be an abundance of young and inexperienced therapist without life, you know, who are giving advice without any lived experiences. Right. And they're giving advice based out of like some fucking almost crazy, I don't know, who not. Because like that doesn't make any. Like they're raised off soap operas.

It doesn't make sense to just say, I don't care about the truth. only care about the child like huh kids literally pretend that's you know like river just sort of watching land before time and she's she's she's on her way to the great valley and I'm glad she has an imagination but like sometimes you just have to I don't know I've heard like child therapists say that like the child is their main priority not necessarily that they don't care about the truth but like parent in a situation like this like both parents are kind of like spewing all different types of things the therapist job is supposed to be like, listen, my job is to prioritize the child.

But that's different than validating the truth. But she was appointed to be both their therapist to reunify them, though, not just be the child's therapist. Also, she even admitted that she's like, yeah, the daughter has a lying problem. But you have to validate those lies and apologize for those things even if they didn't happen. So she doesn't make any sense. I think as far as telling the daughter. I don't think you need to tell the mom. Yeah. Yeah, I just want to know about the pregnancy announcement kind of thing. It sounds like there's no hope for mom. And maybe the therapist is that you're not fully aligned with, you know, I would guess I would go. Yeah, I would go to the therapist.

I mean. Because like, I guess when you're telling the therapist, I would go to the therapist before even tell the daughter and be like, here's our situation. We don't really understand always your perspective, but we do want to receive. the fact that you are her therapist and here, here's our concern. We don't, it doesn't even make sense to us, but like we are growing her family. Hope that's okay. And we do want to be open with her. I mean, depending on. I just feel like I have to ask permission to like extend our lives. And the courts put us in that position. Well, you don't have to have experience to expand your, expand your life. But unfortunately, you do have to like get permission to communicate

to your stepdaughter, which. Well, when next time he's on the phone with her, maybe I think he should tell her directly, like the daughter, even though the mom's going to be in the room. Again, that's like a contributing factor. We can't do anything about it. But I'm thinking of everything with his daughter in mind. Like, she's going to remember all of this. She's going to remember no matter which way you guys tell her, she's going to remember how you told her she was having another sibling. So I think he should tell her directly and just keep it positive and be like, we're expecting another baby.

if you, maybe you know the gender, if you feel comfortable telling her, like, oh my gosh, you're going to be a big sister again. And maybe treat it like all of this chaos around isn't happening and let him try and have that moment with his daughter and say, hey, like, you're going to have another sibling. Like, this is so exciting. And, you know, we're excited for all the memories we're eventually going to make. And we can't wait for you to meet him or her. And if her mom decides to act crazy in the background, then that's her choice. you know yeah i mean she'll probably do what she normally does and text him on she she uses her her daughter's phone to text her text him saying that like it's her talking pretending to be the daughter so

likely after that he'll get a text saying i can't believe you told me about this or blah blah blah blah blah like how could you do this to me yeah i mean so so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so sorry you're comfortable giving us any updates. We would certainly appreciate it. But if we do hear from anything from our audience, we'll pass it along to you. Yeah. Thank you guys for listening. Thank you for taking the time to go through this kind of a situation, even though it's not normally what you guys get called about. Yeah. I'm sorry if it wasn't as helpful as it could be. Usually I have some ability to like relate on some level, but this really seems like a very challenging and difficult situation. and I couldn't really, I couldn't imagine.

So I'm sorry you guys are going through it. Well, either way, just say, you know, hearing from a perspective of another father, like, who has a daughter, it is actually the most helpful. And also hearing from just parents in general, especially one who's been through a divorce and has a daughter around the same age, like, this was incredibly helpful. I feel, I feel more empowered to just move forward, I guess. And it's also good to know that even like, us not letting it stress us out is not us giving up because I feel like that there's a

thin line between those two. Yes. I think that's really important to just, yeah, you got to give you guys yourself a little bit of grace because wearing yourself down and stressing you out on a day-to-day basis knowing there's not much you can do in the, it only hurts you. So it's, you're just kind of torturing yourself. And I, you know, and we all, we all do that, right? Like when we don't, when we don't have control in situations other than just to feel

bad, we do that. And that's almost like a way of penance, you know, because we have that kind of guilt because there's nothing we can do. So we almost like punish ourselves. So like try not to do that, especially you right now. Seriously, thank you guys so much. And thank you for the time. I really appreciate this. I hope you guys have a great day. And congratulations to you and Natalie. I'm wishing her a very smooth recovery and smooth birth. Thank you. Well, take care of that baby too. And try your best to, you know, play the long game. Thank you. I will. Take care. All right, bye. Bye. Well, Jess, it's been fun. So fun.

Did you have a good time? I did. It was like therapy. Some atypical calls. We got some wild ones today. I didn't know what to expect. I don't come in knowing the calls. I was expecting a lot of like relationship questions.

Yeah, I guess we got some different ones today. I loved the family questions. That was good. Well, where can people find you? All that fun stuff? My Instagram handle is Jess Vess. I like sharing advice. This was fun.

Well, come back. I'm, you know, I knew you'd be good, but. I was, I was, I liked this better than I think giving relationship advice because I feel like, I don't know if I have the experience to give. Sure, you do. Yeah. You know, you've made mistakes. You've learned from them.

Yeah. Okay, true. Okay, positivity. There you go. Well, thank you guys for listening. Thank you, Jess, for being, uh, my partner in crime and my contributor. And, uh, don't forget to send them those questions. Ask Nick at the Outfiles.com.

We'll see you next Monday. Bye-bye. Bye.