The Viall Files - E1159 - Secretly Dating My Coworker | Ask Nick

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Ask Nick edition! Our first caller asks how to set boundaries with her toxic mother-in-law. Our second caller seeks advice on how to heal after a breakup and not fall back into the same cycle with her ex. Our third caller wonders if her wanting two kids and her boyfriend wanting one kid is a deal breaker. Subscribe for more dating advice, relationship drama, and unfiltered Ask Nick calls every week. "You've convinced yourself of this passionate love story..." Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe   ARE YOU A MESS BECAUSE OF YOUR SITUATIONSHIP? OR JUST IN GENERAL? Email [e-mail] with all your relationship questions and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content featuring updates from your favorite callers? Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + HERE: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/   Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter   To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Bilt: Download the Bilt app and join the membership at https://joinbilt.com/viall.   Nutrafol: For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you visit https://nutrafol.com and enter promo code VIALL. Upwork: Visit https://upwork.com right now and post your job for free. Minky Couture: Visit https://minkycouture.com and use code VIALL at checkout for 50% off all full priced blankets. Article: Visit https://article.com/viall for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. **To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles  Timestamps: 00:32 - Caller One 31:55 - Caller Two 1:06:47 - Caller Three Episode Socials:  @viallfiles  @nickviall @justinkaphillips @baybaeee

And I would love to just move on, but I can't. I'm not over him. Stop saying I can't get over. Replace it with I'm getting over him. I'm in the process. It's difficult, but I can. And it's up to me. It just takes some time.

But the thing that reduces the time it takes to get over someone is... Good. My name's Alexis. I'm 27 years old. And I'm having trouble setting boundaries with my toxic alcoholic future mother. law. Okay. It's quite a list. Tell me more. So my fiance and I have been together for about five years now. And his mom has always been pretty difficult to be around. But ever since we started wedding planning, it's been getting a lot more complicated. And I'm having trouble figuring out where exactly I

fit into this relationship and how I can set boundaries without overstepping. So in what areas are you trying to avoid overstepping? And when you say this relationship, what relationship are you speaking about? My relationship with her, my fiance is pretty good himself at setting boundaries. I kind of take the back seat and let him navigate that with her because she is such a difficult person to be around. So I've never really said anything confrontational to her, but I'm sort of trying to figure out, especially in the future where we plan to have children

where I belong in that and where I am, where I should speak up and where I should let him do the talking. What conversations have you had with your fiancé about this? Right now, we are kind of in an agreement that the best of boundaries will be set by him. But I don't know. Sometimes I do feel like she'll do something really crazy. And I kind of just will step back and let it happen.

Can you give me an example? So she left me a voicemail. It was around like in the afternoon. She left me a voicemail. She was drunk and she was basically just like venting about my fiance and how he always has to get off the fun. when I'm around and like that sort of thing. I kind of just didn't acknowledge it. She never apologized for it.

And I kind of just like moved on. So I'm not a very confrontational person and neither is he. It feels like I'm taking a very passive approach and it's been tricky. All right. So let's just like let's just focus on this situation and it's kind of like, I don't know, like play it out and like consider what our options are versus like what you did or what you could have done and maybe and see if there's a, was like a better way, you know, almost, right? And so I guess my first question is like when you got that voicemail or that phone call, like what did you do? Did you tell

your fiance about it? Yeah. I told my fiance and I guess we're in the process of wedding planning and she hasn't affected me the same what like before her behavior kind of, I would just kind of brush it off. But now that I have like all this stress of wedding planning. and like extra stressors of that, it kind of has been affecting me and bothering me a lot more than usual. It's just been getting to me a lot more. Okay, that makes sense.

So back to my question, though, on this, with this phone call, you talked to, you told your fiance, yeah? Yes. And now when you told him, was it you just kind of like, not necessarily gossiping, but just being like,

you'll never believe what happened. Your mom told me, and you were just kind of venting to him, or did you tell him with an expectation or hope that he would do something? Like, what were you hoping to get out of anything from that conversation with your fiancé, other than just like, you know,

boy, yeah, that was fucking crazy? Or was there something else to it? Hmm, that's a good question. I think I kind of just, for me, I guess it felt like communication, but I was a little bit of gossip too. Which is, yeah, normal. Yeah.

I was kind of like, yeah, this is crazy and just like shocking. So we can dive into it more, but my first, like my first thought, right, is, you know, you hear me say like control it, you can control. You can't, you know, there's, and sometimes we have to accept things we can't control, you know, yada, yada, yada. And I wonder if, you know, like you said, you've been dating your, your boyfriend, fiancee for five years now. You are engaged.

You are planning a wedding. You're soon to be married. correct me if I'm wrong about any of this stuff. But I imagine while you were in the first couple years of dating your boyfriend, he probably communicated to you who his mom was, what she was about, kind of gave you like a little warning. And it makes sense that he was kind of in the driver's seat of dealing with mom

when mom needed to be dealt with. And that worked for a long period of time. And now that you are engaged and now that you're planning a wedding and now like, you know, there's a difference between being dating, dating someone for a year and talking about having kids someday to being engaged to them, planning a wedding and being like, we're going to have kids someday. Now it's not just my boyfriend's mom, it's my future mother-in-law. And when you start thinking about, oh, I'm having kids with this person someday, my kids are going to be related to this person. And it's going to be their grandma.

And I'm guessing with that, you're probably there's some kind of desire to have some kind of relationship with with with grandma or you know our mom mother-in-law in ways that a year into your relationship with your boyfriend you're like i don't know it's like why she's not my mom you know um and you were just glad you didn't have to deal with her right am i wrong about any of this is this all yeah that sounds about right i guess what i'm trying to suggest is like it just sometimes is helpful to take a step back and try to just see the big picture situation that you're a part of in ways that i'm doing because I'm not personally affected by the situation, right? I'm not invested in it. It's like, you know, and sometimes it does us a good job to just take a pause and say,

just like look at the situation, like what makes sense and why do I, why do I maybe, why am I feeling this way? What's different about how I'm feeling? Because I guess what I'm saying is it's like, it's, I'm guessing you have little to no control over her alcoholism and her choices. I imagine that your fiancé doesn't have much more control. I imagine this is something that affects the family in ways that he's dealt with for a long time. And I get your desire to have like a relationship with her. But I guess the question is, is like what's realistic and what's not? And I think you should be making those decisions based off of what's realistic.

Rather than like, you know, listen, I imagine, you know, six years ago. I think everyone who's dates is like, yeah, I have no reason why I'm not going to get along with my in-laws, right? I'm, I'm normal-ish, you know, got my good days and bad days, but like, I want to get along with the parents or the person I end up marrying. And then all of a sudden you get into a relationship and you meet a great guy and you're excited and you're like, I want to spend the rest of my life as this person. And it turns out you don't have a good relationship with one of the, you know, which is completely outside of your control. And you find yourself in a situation you never imagined you would be in, you know. And that sucks. What I don't want you to do is make a difficult situation worse by like just thinking that I should have a better relation with my mother-in-law. And now that I'm engaged and now that we're planning a wedding, I guess I should I start saying stuff? Should I start speaking up? Like I guess, you know, you raised that question. I asked you gave me an example. What is the, like, what would you have maybe done differently that you've considered? Like if you were like say something or like what, what's, what's an alternative choice that you didn't make that you were thinking? You were thinking. What if I started doing that now?

As far as wedding planning goes, she kind of just freaks out whenever she doesn't get her own way. Like I'll just hear her screaming at my fiancé on the phone a lot. And like there were certain people she wanted invited to the wedding. And we were like, oh, well, we already made the list. Who's paying for the wedding? We are. Okay. And my parents.

She's not. No. Okay. How much does your fiancé listen to her? her like how much does he sit on the phone and allow her to be yelled at it's like tricky because she always has like a tone of yelling but he sometimes he like lets her get it out because she's always like upset about something sometimes he does sit there and just listen and get it out and then other times he's like mom like i need to go and then she like resorts to guilting him she says like

i'm going to be dead one day he usually can stop it and but sometimes he does just keep letting it go on and on. That makes sense and I empathize with his situation. It sounds difficult. That is something you potentially have some control over is sitting down with your fiancee slash husband empathizing with his situation first acknowledging like, listen, man, not man, I'm sorry, I doubt you call your fiance man. But just like to whatever degree, it's just like, I'm sorry you have to deal with this.

You know, it's not fair to you. And then, you know, check in, how can you be helpful? But at some point, you want to try to help him set healthier bonges with mom. I mean, if mom is saying to him, I'm going to be dead someday because, like, he's not inviting a certain friend to a wedding. If my mom, who I feel like I have a great relationship, said that to me, I would roll my eyes at her. And be like, okay, mom, yeah, we're all going to be dead someday.

But, like, we don't, it's just a crazy thing to say. But like, again, we're talking maybe years of, of relationship and manipulation and, I don't know. But like, to unpack that, your, your fiance may want to, I don't know, has your therapy might be helpful. I don't know. Like, growing up with a alcoholic mother who uses, you know, manipulation tactics and things like that, I'm sure has had an effect on him in ways that maybe he doesn't fully realize. But I guess what I'm saying is your energy is better channeled. working with him about how he handles his, how he processes his emotions,

how he feels about his interactions with his mom, about the boundaries that you guys want to set together, you know, and things like that, as opposed to figuring out how you should start dealing with mom. Because that sounds like an uphill battle that your fiance hasn't figured out in an entire lifetime. And you're trying to figure out in the next few months before your wedding.

Yeah. And it's also like we want, it's tricky because like obviously she's kind of in a dark place and like we want to include her in things and like do what she asks basically, not do what she asks, but include her in what we're doing and like wedding planning and stuff. But then she doesn't necessarily respect us back and we'll kind of like cause drama during events and whatnot. So it's like we want to help her. but she is making it hard to build that and get there. Is his dad in the equation at all? They're divorced. Okay.

But does he have a relationship with his father? Yeah, he does. What conversations, if any, does he have with his dad about his mom? They went through a really messy divorce when he was a kid, where one parent would talk about the other parent, and that was kind of a mess. Okay. So he tries not to open that door. but sometimes the mom, his mom will reach out to his dad and just say also say crazy things and

like that will be communicated to him. It sounds like a lot of people in this family have really struggled with having a relationship with this person. So I would set your expectations low about your ability to do it any differently. So yeah, I guess I would like don't put any added pressure on yourself. But I think acknowledging that there's a challenge here, acknowledging that this person has obviously had an impact on your, on your fiancé and therefore an impact on you. And she is affecting your experience in the wedding planning, which is already

stressful enough. And I think you just want to make sure that you and your fiance are on the same page. Like, what's his comfort level of just, like, not listening to mom? Like, what do we have to include her in the wedding planning? So that's the thing is, like, she's not necessarily involved in, like, the details, but she's, like, invited to things. And sometimes we'll include her. Like she's going to be invited to the engagement party. And like just like any family event that has to do with the wedding, like she'll be there.

But she can't just like come like when we ask her to and like present how we ask her to. She like has to make it all difficult. And she also has a lot of siblings. So like my fiance's aunts and uncles might also be there. And like she's in conflict with them. So like that could cause added drama too. And like, yeah. So it's just kind of inevitable that she will contribute some sort of stress

and not listen to any requests that we ask of her. So what if you just didn't ask anything of her? Just let her show up as she is. She seems to do that anyways. Yeah. I mean, listen, it's a tough situation, right? Like you have two choices, right? You literally not invite mom.

That's not ideal. it's also it is an option and you are painting a picture of severity even in your guys's situation I do just want to stress that like this is your wedding all of it the engagements parties whatever you do to celebrate this whole

journey between your fiance is about you two and you definitely want to share it with friends and family but what's most important is how you guys are with each other and there is going to be drama at your wedding you know, it might be like crazy drama like mom does some crazy shit or it might be something else. But, you know, it's also part of the story. And as long as you don't focus on that and focus on your fiancé, you will have a good wedding. And I think that's the most important thing to focus on is where you put your focus on your wedding. And you can allow your wedding to be quote unquote ruined by the actions of others. But that only is possible if you,

make their behavior more important than what you and your fiance have going on between the two of you. And that is just something I would just really stress because I think it's super important. I think it's something people overlook. And it really is as simple as a choice. It's actually as a couple reminding you, you know, like I've said this story before, but like on our wedding weekend, you know, we're all, we're all in Savannah, Georgia and my family and her family and her family, family's there and it was the Thursday night going into the weekend and we had, you know, and Natalie was like, it was like, oh, what do we do? Do I go with your, my family? And I was like, no, we are like, we're not leaving each other side. And she was like kind of like, oh, yeah, we had a

conversation. It was kind of like, yeah, we made a choice together. And then, and that's what we focused on. And it ended up being a great wedding. And then we had drama, you know, there was definitely drama. But it's all, it's just part of the story. because what we remember from our wedding is our how how connected we were. And so more than anything, that's the part you can control, especially if you decide to include mom in the stuff. And that's why I'm saying, like, you know, why are you giving rules to someone that you know, if anything, is going to, like, rebel against those rules?

You're like literally giving, you're not giving her rules. You're giving her ideas, you know? Yeah. So, like, what's the point? Yeah, that's true. if you know she's not going to do it. And all you're doing in those situations is setting yourself up to be frustrated. I asked her to do this. And of course, mom's not doing it. Yeah. I know that's not the best situation, but like that is the situation you guys are presented with. And it might be the better

option than doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. So I guess like the difference between rules and boundaries are like where we're getting kind of mixed up. Because like to us, It's like, I guess that's not a boundary. It's more of. Yeah, it is the same thing, I guess, in this situation. But this is your, this is your fiance's mom, and this is a wedding celebration. That's why I'm like saying, like, it is an option not to invite her. I guess you could always show up and find out.

But, you know, that is an option. And that's really the only, if you're talking about in terms of boundaries, that would be a boundary you guys are forced to enforce. because mom's giving you no other options. And you're saying the boundary is mom, we've tried a million different ways to get you to be able to be around. And unfortunately we can't. So we can't come. That would be a boundary.

I think what you're confusing is the idea that just because you give a boundary, someone else is going to listen. You know, we set boundaries all the time that people don't listen to. We set boundaries with ourselves that we don't listen to. You know, I'm going to lay off sweet. That's a boundary. You know, we don't. You know, I'm gonna stop smoking or, you know, whatever.

I'm, you know, I guess in a way, that's a boundary, right? Usually a boundary in the way we talk about it in today's culture is to limit access of someone to, like, by limiting someone else's access to us. You know, you can't speak to me that way. I won't be treated that way, yada, yada, yada. Just because you stay at the boundary doesn't mean they listen. when they don't listen to the boundary, then we're forced with another choice of, okay, I try to set a boundary with this person. They chose not to listen.

What am I going to do next? And that's kind of where you're at. Yeah. I've been like definitely distancing myself from her and like not responding to her at all. It's become a very like separate or a very, I don't know, we're just growing distant from each other because I'm not responding to her. and I was feeling like pretty guilty about that. And I was also thinking in the future when we have kids, she's probably going to paint this picture that I'm keeping her grandchildren away from her.

But if that's, I guess, yeah, I guess you're right. If that's what it takes. Those are things that are outside of your control. Listen, I'm pretty confident. My mother-in-law says nice things about me. I don't know. I'm not there 100% of the time. you know when she talks to her you know people that's not really your business or your problem

what is your business is how you show up to how you how you how you how you try to have a relationship with her you know when you when you when you have a child like yeah i don't i think you'll have a lot of other things to worry about with and whether like what what what grandma's saying about you to her friends yeah i guess i just need to like let go of the idea that anything could change because I noticed like my fiance is constantly it was worse when we were younger but like he was always trying to like fix her and help her and change whatever about her situation and like I could see it objectively that that's not possible so now I just need to remind myself that like this relationship is what it is and I can't do much about it.

What I would focus your energy on is making sure that your fiance is okay and I would check in with him from time to time and try to be helpful to him because as frustrating as it is for you, I imagine it's that much more frustrating for him. He has to grapple with the decision of literally uninviting with his mom. He has to face the reality that his mom is a social liability in public spaces. And that, I'm sure, feels a certain way. And it's hard and challenging and probably it goes deeper than just like how he feels in that moment on that particular day. If I were you, I would try to make sure he's okay and offer grace and support for whatever help he wants to get so that this doesn't bleed into your marriage and in your life.

And that's where, like, that's what you can help with and just support him and not, you know, when he's feeling frustrated and discouraged, try to pick him up when this situation. I, you know, not that you are, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't make it about you. your relationship with her. Your relationship with her will most likely be dictated by his relationship with, with, uh, you know, with her. This is obviously an extreme situation, but like, yeah, I would imagine most in-law relationships are heavily influenced by the relationship the actual son or daughter has. Yeah, that makes sense. Like now he's always like, it's fine, can't do a whole lot about it's fine, but then he's still, like, answers the phone calls and gets, like, really anxious

about it and whatnot. So. Like, because it's his mom. It's his mom. He loves her. And it's probably hard. And, and. Yeah. I don't know. I don't love my mother-in-law like I love my parents. Yeah. You know, like, she created that man. You know, like, that's, it's his flesh and blood. It's, there's a bond there, you know, like, it's just, it will always be hard. God forbid you two someday don't work out. You know, and I'm not wishing that on you, and I don't think that's going to happen.

But just if you did, this woman, like, if you broke up in five years, in six years, she wouldn't even be a part of your life, period. You wouldn't even wonder what she's doing. She will always be his mom. Yeah. With all the girlfriends ever had, I always had some kind of relationship with their parents. and since we're not together, right? I don't even know if half of them are alive. I don't know what they're doing.

Support your husband, make sure he's your, your fiance, make sure he's okay. That's where you should channel your energy. And I would just really back him up with whatever these tough decisions are that you guys make together. And if he wants to invite mom, which would be a normal thing to the wedding, then you guys, together as a couple, have to figure out how you guys get through that. and it sounds like maybe the only way to get through it is to just not let mob's actions dictate your feelings on the situation. Just assume that she's going to go fucking crazy. You guys have experienced that before.

You've survived that. Either you can make it a thing or you can not make it a thing. Just kind of brush it off if it does happen. I mean, what's the harm in doing that? Yeah, that makes sense. If all that happened is you guys got married and you, you had overall a pretty great wedding and you felt really connected to your fiance and then husband.

And most of your memories surrounding that weekend were how you felt in your dress, his vows that made you feel a certain way, the moment of you walking down the aisle, blah, blah, blah. But in that, it included a 30-minute scene where his mom went fucking crazy. Did it ruin the wedding? Or does it make, you know, it's a little embarrassing that the drama was his mom. I would feel for him. But other than that, you know, does it stop you from having a great wedding?

Does it stop it from being a good memory? Would you throw away all your wedding pictures because mom lost her shit? Yeah, that makes sense. So just kind of let her do her thing. Stop trying to control it so much. Certainly unprofessional advice when it comes to dealing with someone who struggles with alcoholism. There are certainly like support groups like Al-Anon, I believe it is, for people who have loved ones who are alcoholics and things like that. And they certainly can offer like best practices and probably more specific advice to how to deal with people like your mother-in-law and probably some access to therapy to help like, you know, that might be something that your fiance might want to look into.

Outside of that, I would definitely just, you can't control something that is. Like, you know, there's a lot of history there. There's, who knows, you know. And her actions shouldn't dictate the success of your marriage. Yeah, I think what I got really stuck on for a while was, like, how much I want her to be around our kids and, like, figuring that out with him because, like, he's going to want her to have a good relationship with our kids. But I don't know if that's realistic. And I guess. Listen, I'm sorry you're going through this.

I know it's difficult. But like, listen, you guys, at the end of the day, you can allow this to bring you two closer together because however you deal with it, you deal with it together and as a team. And he feels like he has support in ways he never felt like he had support from his mom. And you feel like you've been helpful. If I'm you, I would find ways, like, I'm sure it's very frustrating for you to have a mother, a mother-in-law like her. but to whatever degree you cannot add to his pain by by needing him to validate your frustrations about her will be very helpful to him because he knows he's been dealing with this his whole life you know so i would find other people to vent to about her than to him and when it comes to him i would be as supportive as you can possibly be yeah And I would try to get through this together with him. And I think that will bring you closer together.

Yeah, that makes sense. I think sometimes he gets like, because I do lean on my friends a little bit, and he gets like kind of embarrassed. And he's like, what if my mom gets better one day and all these people know all these bad things? I don't know. It's only like my close friends, but still I think it kind of embarrasses him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would be very careful about that, especially if these are friends that he also has access.

too. Yeah, it's like my two close friends usually and sometimes my mom. I'd be careful about that. I'd be careful about that. Because again, you know, you're about to get married. So, you know, he should be the most important relationship in your life. And I would be careful about gossiping about his life to other people. I know it's affecting you, but I would just be really careful about that. Should I just have like, you think one safe person or do you think I shouldn't talk to anybody about it? I mean, listen, you have the right to vent. I mean, I don't know. A therapist is probably more productive.

I mean, listen, I'm not telling you to not talk to your mom about the things that are going on your life, but I would want to make sure your mom is, you know, also not a gossip or your friends aren't also gossip. Everyone always tells someone, you know. Are you gossiping with mom or are you going to mom for advice? or counsel, like there is a difference. And I would make sure, I would, I would, I would, I would, I would, I would nip the gossiping in the, in the bud, so to speak. And, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you'd know, you'd know, I would invent to your husband. Because obviously that's going to add frustration. But yeah, I would just be careful about whatever gossiping you're, you're doing. I think it starts as like confiding and then it might turn into gossip once it gets started.

But I usually do it when I'm frustrated about something that she's done. And then some, yeah, I think I probably could tone that down. Listen, it makes sense. It's only human. You're not going to be perfect. But as long as you can recognize that's something that maybe you could tone down or not do, especially if you're able to recognize it's a little gossipy at the end of the day. But yeah, that's just like bonus, you know, it's like, I don't think it's going to help you long term.

As tough as it is as a situation it is and frustrating is for you, it's got to be 10 times that at least for him. And you have a real opportunity to bond over this in a weird way. Because like, you're either going to make his life easier or harder with how you choose to deal with his mom. because it's his mom. And whether he speaks to her every day or cuts her off, he will always have some kind of relationship with his mom, even if he doesn't have a relationship because it's his mom. Yeah.

And your ability to make his life easier in this situation will go so far. Yeah, that's helpful. Definitely is a, oh yeah, I've heard you talk about this before. but like hearing it be directed towards my situation is super helpful. I'm glad it was a little helpful, but when's the big day? We still have a year, so it's next June. Okay. Well, good luck.

And just like I said, this is about you two and no one else. And I think that's, you have to actually have that conversation with each other and have it not be to something that people say. You're like, oh, yeah, it sounds cool. We should do that. No, but you literally should have a conversation. about where you guys focus your energy and efforts as it relates to planning this wedding, showing up for your wedding, and just being a couple because that will, I think, be the biggest

difference. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Sounds good. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for the call. Good luck.

And I think you're going to be all right. But certainly give us an update if there's updates to give, which I imagine there would be. Well, do. If everything explodes, I'll let you guys. know. It won't. It won't. I mean, as long as you two are good, it won't, everything can explode. They're just, it's just a little drama. Yeah. You can either focus your attention on that drama, or you could just let it pass. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. All right. Take care. Thanks. What's up, everybody? Don't forget that all Vile Files Plus content is ad free.

Plus, for all you ask Nick listeners out there, your update specials are ready and waiting for you. I know you are very interested on the follow-up calls. What has happened to these people after they heard my advice? It had help them. Did it hurt them? Has their life changed? Well, you can find out on Update Plus, and you can get Update Plus behind Viow Files Plus. So go to VialFiles.com to sign up.

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Hello, I am Julia. I am 27 and I made the very hard decision to leave the man that I love. because I had to. And I'm wondering how to heal fully and not fall back into the same cycle, either with him or in the future. Why did you leave? So we dated for two and a half years. About a year in, I had found him being not loyal to me. It was never physical, but I was, you know, I just had the inkling to go on his phone and it was there. It was multiple. multiple women. It was all people from his past and it was super hurtful. And we tried, you know, after that because obviously that was a year in. But then it would happen again. Yeah, he would, you know, lie to me and he's older than me. So he's 35. There was a lot of just like not taking me seriously. I think he initially thought he could date someone younger and then I would be okay with not being taken as seriously, but that was always an issue. And then anytime he would essentially cheat on me, it would be with someone, his age or older.

So that was a big, you know, that really hurt. So what are you struggling with the most? Your boyfriend and girlfriend engaged, married, what was your status? We were dating,

we were just boyfriend, girlfriend. A big part of this, we were not public the entire time. Why weren't you public? Because it's not allowed. A work?

Yes. All right. Yeah. Your work frowned upon it, and you guys chose to keep it secretive. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's really difficult.

And now we're broken up and I see him every day. So you still work together? Yes, and we will for a while until I leave. I will say that I'm going to be gone for a while, but I will come back eventually. So it's going to give me, that's going to be a good time for me, you know, to be alone. So you're going to be relocated temporarily for work.

Mm-hmm. Well, that's a good thing. yeah like what he's strongly with the most like why are you I mean I know the like how long ago did this happen like how fresh is this two half months about I mean I'm still so in love with him and he's so in love with me and yeah I'm okay let's you're not you're not I know right like logically I want to say that but it's true if I went to him right now and said let's

get back together we would sure well but what does that mean to you. To me, it just means that those feelings are still there for both of us. And I'm really having to, like, I initiated it. You initiated the relationship? No, I initiated the breakup. No, he initiated the breakup. Okay.

I see your point. I see your point there. So, you know, you don't want this. No, I don't. You know, but, but, you. You are choosing, you know, as I say yourself and you're, and how long you've been dating for? Two and a half years. Yeah.

So, you know, he's made some choices. You gave him a second chance. And how convinced are you that you're done? That's a really good question. I think every time I see him, I think twice about it. And I see him every day, you know. But I don't want to go back to him because of just the complications around. everything and I know I deserve more. He knows I deserve more. And truthfully, the reason I even

started initiating to actually be broken up was because I started to find interest in someone else. And I was honest with him about it. I told him immediately. And it was just insane to me, like the things that this other person was showing me who had no obligation to me. So what was the nature of that relationship? Like how, what was he showing you? And I guess how did you guys, what, what are we talking here? Like, you saw someone, you're like, he's cute and you were surprised that you even thought they were cute. But like, did you cross some boundaries maybe a little bit?

I think I crossed boundaries in my own head because before all of this had happened, that would have never been. Whatever the reason. Never had crushed on someone. Let's forget it for a second about justifying your choices. I just want to know what your choices were. Like, did you, in your mind, cross any boundaries? I think I gave him the attention that he was giving me and my crush. And I also told him I had a crush on him.

Okay. Would you want your partner doing that with someone that you were in a relationship with, that you did with your crush? No. Okay. No. All right. So, okay, we crossed some boundaries. Okay.

Listen, I only ask that because, again, like right now, I feel like you're really wearing this breakup on your sleeves, as they say. You know, it's really, and I'm getting the sense you're making a very difficult situation, which it is, so much worse. Probably. And I think it's just really important to just be honest with yourself about this situation. One, you're still pretty young. You got excited about someone.

You invested in this person. the you guys not tell anyone because of work and maybe there's some layers there you can peel back but I don't know big picture why that should affect how you heal you know I imagine it makes you feel a certain way like you made some sac you know like usually when we have breakups especially when they come at a surprise

and especially when the result of us feeling shortchanged or like where the other person didn't live up some of the promises they made to us, we have a tendency to hyper fixate on ways that we were wrong. And I did this and I did that and blah, blah, boom. So, you know, it feels like maybe you weren't comfortable with the secrecy of your relationship and you did it anyways.

And now that it hasn't worked out, it's hard not to feel weird about that or like that it's a thing or something. something, am I on any type of right track? Maybe, I mean... Because I only ask in the grand scheme of things, objectively speaking, what does it really have to do with anything? What is what I have to do?

The secrecy? Yeah. Assuming that you're not together, you don't get back together. Like, what is that... What... I guess my question, in the terms of you moving forward, right? And you just simply thinking about that. just like, you know, I'm a friend.

You and I as friends are talking about this painful experience that you went through, right? And early on, and it's a thing that you kind of brought up about like, and we didn't fucking, like we were keeping it a secret. And it's like it annoys you. And I am just wondering, objectively speaking, going forward, why does that matter anymore? I don't think it matters anymore. Okay. All right, cool.

So, like, it's just, I think my only point to bring that up is, like, that's the little shit, right? Like, when you're, if your goal of this call is to try to figure out is to, A, acknowledge that, like, despite however you're feeling and your feelings are probably very confused right now, that you don't think he's right for you and that you should move on and move forward and find love somewhere else. If that's the ultimate goal, then it's about how to navigate all these feelings that you're having that make you feel stuck or make you take you to, consider things that deep down you know aren't healthy, like taking him back, then it's really just, it's really important to not waste your energy worrying about things that don't matter anymore. Because that's when these very painful experiences like heartbreak and being cheated on are harder to get over than they need to be because we just make it worse. And we have, you know, and sometimes we want it to mean something. And when we're get cheated on, it has a way of

implying that like what I thought we had, which was meaningful, wasn't all that meaningful. So then we decided to punish ourselves and torture ourselves. Yeah, it's like a form of penance, you know, and that way so that you can tell yourself it was meaningful. Like you, to make the suffering of the breakup harder than it needs to be, that way your subconscious will know that it was worth something. I definitely agree. I make myself suffer for sure. But that's something to be aware of asking yourself those questions of like what what is what is this matter when they popping your head right yeah i think for me it's more just like this space is going to be really good for me and i know like the obvious choice right now is take my time being alone focused on

healing i don't even know how i don't even know what to focus on to be honest but i think moving forward, I always find myself in super passionate relationships. Dating's never been an issue. If I'm interested in someone, I usually end up dating them for a few years. So I've had like three long-term boyfriends. And in between, I date, you know, and then those always are too passionate. And I'm like, no, this isn't what I want. I need to be alone right now. I'm trying to, I always try and take time for myself and then end up in another relationship for a few years. So I guess how do I sort of focus on me? How do I break out of that? I am. I am. I definitely want a new therapist. Okay. Maybe I've asked that same question. What have you what have they said to you?

Nothing's super helpful. You know, make a list. Don't get into another relationship with those things are obvious to me. But have they helped you understand why you have a hard time? No, because I honestly, when I go to therapy, I have so many, like, more family issues that I deal with. It's like, this is the last thing I talk about every time. And I try and make a mental note when I go in. I'm like, okay, like, I want to send it that time to talk about this, but then we end up talking about something else for too long. So, again, I'm not a therapist, so like, I can, you know, there's some, you know, listen, you have, you know, obviously some kind of discomfort with being alone. You know, there are elements of a relationship, even if it's playing house that you're drawn to.

Is it like an unprofessional gas and a therapist, the right therapist, a good therapist could help you understand. But ultimately, like, you know, yeah, make a little, but like you're, you're going to have to get through the discomfort. That's the short answer. like that's the unprofessional none like that's just the layman's term to kind of answer you know and like yeah make a list that probably feels like okay what does a list do i don't know but you know you shouldn't get back together with him and you and i both don't know if you will and the other day it's not therapy not therapy you know you just have a choice to make and you're going to either make the choice that deep down you know is the right choice for you, but difficult

in the short term because it will make you sad. It will take away from what you want. What you want is simply just to pretend it didn't happen, to hear how he's sorry, and to just get back to whatever moments of comfort that you had with them. That's what you want right now. And you're either you're going to decide to do what you think is best for you long term or you're going to not. Now again, like, I don't fault, listen, you gave him a second chance. It's not crazy. You know, maybe, like, listen, you made you feel loved. Maybe he felt like he was really sorry.

People work through infidelity. But there's a difference between like someone really making mistake and feeling like he, like, what did he do after the first time you caught him to actually feel like he made. some meaningful changes. Did he explore why he is so comfortable lying to you? Did he get therapy? Did you understand why he made these choices? Or was it just like him saying how sorry it was and how you'll never do it again? Yeah, he was sorry, he would never do it again. He deleted his socially. All of those other things came within the month I was contemplating, breaking up with him, because I was always open with him. Like, hey, I have this crush. I'm strongly,

thinking about ending this. I don't want to, but like I'm realizing so many things right now about how I'm dissatisfied with how you treat me. And then it was he finally got therapy. Doing things I forgot I had asked him to do for so long that I just accepted that I wasn't going to get. And then it was all of a sudden so easy to do in that last month or so. When did the crush enter the equation? like two and a half months ago like three months ago around that time frame

like right before you broke up yeah it was all kind of stretched out like I developed the crush I told him maybe a week later well no I told him maybe like a couple months later because I thought it was just like innocent and then it was becoming more

than that I was wanting to talk to him all the time and I was like this is wrong of me even though nothing was happening It felt like I was emotionally cheating, so I told him. And then we were trying to work through it that he started, you know, stepping it up, stepping it up for the next two, three weeks. And then I crossed the boundary by telling my crush. I told my dead boyfriend that I did that. And then, I mean, even then he was still willing to work through it because it wasn't.

Your boyfriend? I don't know. I don't know. When did you find out about him? Yeah. doing more shit so year in is when I first found out he had been basically doing it all year

but then you forgave him couldn't get over it was really trying I forgave him I was really trying to get over it and then maybe four five months later is when he started doing it again but I didn't find out

until maybe eight months later so like that four month time frame between when he started and when I found out like is how long he was doing it for but then you didn't break up No, no, I gave it more than two chances. So what caused the breakup?

I just, you know, and I was, I had talked to one of my cousins about this. I was like, you know, I decided this at a time where everything was really good. It was the best it had ever been. And she stopped me and was like, it was the best it had ever been because it was never good. The catalyst was this crush that I had. So you broke up with them for the crush? in layman's terms sure but what are you doing anything with the crush these days we see each other but i mean he knows i'm going to be gone for a while like he fully accepts and i tell him honestly

earnestly you know i'm still not over what has happened i cannot miss in you i need time to be alone i mean he's really really into me and i would love to just be into him and move on but i can't like i'm still i'm not over him you know Okay. Because, yeah, your timeline's a little different than I thought it was. What's different? Well, I thought you broke out with him because you caught him again. No.

No, so we had tried, so I found out August last year that he just kept doing it. For all you know, he stopped? For all I know, yeah. Between August and when we broke up. What do you believe? How are you also so sure that it wasn't physical? Because she doesn't live here. I mean, he could have been doing things with other people, right?

But, I mean, part of the problem, too, was that he didn't go anywhere. He just stayed home and did his hobbies at home. Like, he was always home. He was all on his phone. So what do you think your biggest issue is? Right now, I think I'm just, I'm not over it, and I don't know how to focus on myself. Like, I'm at a point in my life where I need to, and I don't know how. Well, I would stop telling yourself if you're not over it.

Okay. That's step one. It may be true, but like, you know, at the end of, you know, we can control our thoughts and feelings and what we say to each other and out loud. It plays a big role. And so if your hope is to get over it, I would say I'm getting over it because that's also true. You're not there yet. But I can't get over it. It tells you that you can't.

And then that gives you a permission structure to like obsess over him and think about him and miss him. And at the end of the day, like, yeah, I guess, like, you know, maybe find a different therapist, better therapist, whatever if you don't feel like it's working for you. But you just have to trust your gut, you know, your gut tells you that this isn't the guy for you. And like you said, maybe the crush was the catalyst, but it doesn't sound like it really was the reason why you broke up with them because as soon as you broke up with your boyfriend, you were like, I don't know if I could actually, you know, I don't know, I'm just not ready yet for this guy. And take advantage of the fact that you do, work is sending you away and you are going to be away from him and you just have to like

the narrative you have to tell yourself is not i can't get over him which is is well all the things that you like that you don't want that he possesses as a boyfriend or as a partner and then slowly over time you'll actually see him that way right now most of your feelings are based off of empty promises or like missing them and and things like that and you've just convinced yourself that this is some sort of passionate love story where you guys couldn't just find each other and that's just not true the truth is is like i don't know he just he did some things my guess is you probably broke up with your boyfriend because you never really got over what he did and in the meantime you use that as obviously his excuse to get a crush on someone else

but maybe subconsciously it was just a reason for you to justify breaking up with your boyfriend and the person you couldn't quite get over what he did to you. And that's what the truth is. And it was a difficult decision, you know, because like, had he not done that, you know, he probably possesses a lot of things that you like in a relationship. But you made an adult decision

and now you just have to see it through. And you're going to be presented with a lot of moments where it would just be easier to call him or text him or check in. And you're just going to have to tell yourself no. You're just going to have that discipline. That's what it is. I mean, that's how you get that discipline. plan, you know, you might have to figure it out through friends and books and therapy and

whatever. But you can, like, anytime you make a decision in life, you can just ask yourself, why am I making this decision? And you can be honest with that. What's the most honest, hard to hear version of why I might make the, like literally have that conversation with yourself. Just be wrong honest. If I'm being my most critical self, why am I making this decision? What would Nick say? And ask yourself, do you like that answer? And usually that answer is some kind of version of which one is, you know, is the long-term solution? Is the long-term reason, but, you know, or is it a short-term reason?

Usually the long-term reason, like if we know, if it's what's better than the long-term, usually the better one, because, well, we know that today is going to end. And there's always going to be a tomorrow. and we want tomorrow to be better than today. And we don't want to gamble our future by just having something today that we know will end. I definitely agree. I mean, I was never over it. And I would tell him that a lot.

I thought about it all the time. When we were together, like I thought about it all the time. As much as I didn't want to, but just like ruin everything every day. I would somehow in some way see something that would remind me of it. And I would tell him, I'm like, I'm thinking about this right now.

And he's like, things take time to get over. You know, it was always like, we will get through this and over this and rebuild our foundation. It got to a point I had to stop listening to the ask nick. Because people would come in with stories and I'm like, this is like telling me what I need to do. And I had to stop. Eventually, I didn't start listening again because I love it. But it was. You mean like it felt it, are you saying like?

it suggested you knew you needed to end the relationship but didn't want to kind of thing? Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, outside of not listening to the show, which is fine. I went back and listen to the mall. But that is what I'm talking about, right? Like, in that moment, you chose the short-term solution, not the long-term. You heard something that inside told you what you needed to do, and then you chose to ignore it because you didn't want to face it.

And if you're asking me, like, how do I get over it? It is having the guts to face it and not ignore it and not avoid it and not stop listening to the thing that calls us out. Don't ignore the friend who gives you the tough love. Don't ignore your inner voice that says, you're going to regret this. And then having the discipline and the strength to see it through. even though in the short term, you might be sad and lonely and whatever, and knowing that he's a phone call away from like temporary immediate happiness. If you, you know, because you can, you can forget anything for 24 hours, you know.

It's like you can pretend something that happened for a short period of time. But, you know, it sounds like you just know. And listen, the truth is like you probably don't know the full truth. I think about that a lot. I express that to him a lot. And that's probably the part. I don't believe you never told me the truth. And that's the part you probably can't get over. If you knew definitively what he did and it was something that you could accept,

but you knew that was it, it would probably change how you moved in your decision. But take advantage of the fact that you are leaving. And I would just be very mindful of the things you tell yourself. Again, I would start with by stop saying, I can't get over. And I would replace it with, getting over him. I'm in the process. It's difficult, but I can. And it's up to me. It's, it's this time, it just takes some time. But the thing that reduces the time it takes to get over someone is your ability or inability to control your thoughts. And what you decide to think about,

are you allowing yourself to reminisce about unproductive things that remind you of the happy times that allow you to go back into that relationship mentally even though that relationship is over? Or do you allow yourself to think about why you reinforce why you ended the relationship? He's someone I couldn't trust. Acknowledge that you're sad and lonely but knowing that like remind yourself that you are in fact investing in yourself. And go on a date here or there when you feel. ready and stuff like that, but like it's just all part of the process and then slowly but surely you will just start to heal and forget.

You're right. There is a part of you that doesn't want to let go. And so you're choosing to stay emotionally in this relationship, which is kind of like torture, because especially because it's your decision. So you're kind of torturing yourself by emotionally staying in the relationship, but technically breaking up of them. Yep. So, you know, do the little things.

I don't know. Do you have memorabilia? Get rid of it. Do the things that make it real and finite and over. I have gone rid of a lot of stuff. And when you say, and when people say things, well,

I'm not ready yet. That is you acknowledging that like you're, then don't say I can't get over it. It's saying I'm choosing not to. Yeah. I just found like when I would spend time with, the new guy, it would sometimes

just make it worse. Like all I'm thinking about is like this moment I'm having right now like what it was like with him and how it was different. Well so much as

it's like I cycle through all those. Yeah, but the crush, you know, like you said, the crush sounds like it was more or less a response to what he did.

That's why the crush seems less appealing now that you don't have the boyfriend in the equation because it was, he was like a catalyst to break up. It wasn't about

the potential of him. He gave you something that your boyfriend couldn't in the time but now that you don't have either it's probably that's why it's less appealing. Yeah.

So. And it's not that I don't, I don't like him, I do, I like him. It's just. You're too busy obsessing over the ex. Yeah.

And I tell him too, I'm like, because I wear my emotion. I can't, like, hide it. And he's like, I know what you're thinking about right now. And I'm like, yeah.

And he knows, And he knows that's what he signed up for. He understands that, which is helpful because I feel like I don't have anybody to talk about it. I think you should drop them both. And the reason I think you should drop the crush is because the crush is almost reminds you of the boyfriend. They're too intertwined. You're literally talking to the crush about the boyfriend. It's this whole dramatic story that you have created.

And if you really want to get over this, if this call you. is about you moving forward and moving on. Then I think you just got to stop doing these little things that are allowing you to stay stuck. It might be hard, you know. I'm not saying it'll be easy. You know, it's like, it's like what's addicts, right? If they try to quit and go cold turkey, there's like a, you know, those first few days

are really, you know, you're detoxing your body from these poisons that have, that your body's gotten comfortable with. And honestly, getting over a pain. breakup has a very like similar probably effect you know in terms of you almost have to cleanse your body of all these these emotions and memories that your body is so used to processing when it comes to them and to deny yourself you just ruminating about this relationship feels like withdrawal and that's why it's so painful early on but you know it just it does get easier every day little by little.

The same way, you know, it would for someone who is, you know, detoxing from some kind of chemical they've been putting in the body. So, I mean, I guess, you know, I hope that you feel more empowered, you know, like it is a choice. But unlike an addiction, you're not addicted to him in that sense. I mean, I'm sure to a little bit. And you're familiar with him, you're used to him, you're comfortable with him. You're probably addicted to the drama that it has brought in your life.

but I don't think you need to go to some sort of rehabilitation center in order to get over with this guy. No, I don't. It is really hard, like, having to have them there every day. Sure, and no doubt, but when are you leaving? Super soon. So, you know, fine. There's a party that doesn't want to take my advice. You don't want to get over it.

You like thinking about it, even if it hurts. It's something to do. So I think that's really important to acknowledge. And then when you do leave, take advantage of the fact that, like, you don't have access to him. He doesn't have access to you. And it'll be a lot easier to get him out of your mind. And you will meet new people. You'll have new interactions.

And then if you're asking yourself, how do I stop myself from jumping into another relationship? Well, it's just a little bit of discipline. I mean, at the day, like, yeah, I'm sure a therapist can, you know, explain to you why you do what you do. you and maybe give you some tools like list building, you know, but you know, sometimes the only day the answer is just a little discipline. It is getting through the discomfort that a lot of people aren't willing to do. And then, you know, when you're, when you wake up one day and you realize I haven't thought about the X, then maybe it's safe to date someone else. But in between now and then, you realize that it will mostly be a response and then therefore you're going to start things out

in kind of a toxic way. What do you mean? Well, you know, just same way you're crush was. You know, if, let's say you, you move, you know, you travel for work and you get relocated and you meet a guy that you're crushing on, but you say that this crush, hey, I'm just not ready. I'm just still thinking about my ex and yada yada. And then the, even if that crush is like, okay, well, like, like, just like this crush, you know, just like this guy, the way he is making you feel wanted and valid and, you know, desired. And you're like, oh, he's really into me. It makes you feel chaste and it's dramatic and there's something to do

and it keeps you preoccupied. Like that's the part that's a you problem that you need to deal with. Is to like you get something out of this drama you know, as opposed to may, you know, just, hey, you seem really attractive and I do like you and maybe we can spend some time together, but like right now

and, you know, if you still need to, you know, I'm still getting over a relationship, you know, and I need some space, you know, assuming that's true. don't use it as the storyline. And just check in with you. How am I feeling? Did I bring them up today?

Is this helpful? Definitely helpful, yeah. I think you're right about discipline. I value that a lot. I just never thought about it emotionally. I always think about it physically, like having the physical discipline to do hard things. Because it's a mind game.

I never thought about pushing through the hard emotions with discipline. Yeah, it's just not giving it. At the end of the day, it's just you're still making choices. You spend more energy with your emotions than you do whatever you do at work. Yeah. I can only imagine how much energy

you've spent on this relationship and breakup. I just said I just want to leave. Like I've just been dying to go. Well, it's soon. In the meantime, don't waste, you know, I'm sure you have some friends here that you're going to miss outside of him. And that's the stuff that helps you get over.

it is just getting out of your own bullshit, getting out of your head, and saying, well, before I go, as much as I want to leave, because a little space from him is going to help, I have some people I should say goodbye to. I have some people I want to hang out with before I leave for a long period of time. And I'm not going to waste their time with my relationship problems when we go and grab a drink or a beer. I'm going to focus on them. I'm going to ask them what their lives are like. I'm going to get out of my head. I am not going to make my last moments here all about him with every conversation that I have and everything that I do. That is your default. I mean, I don't talk about it because nobody knows. That's, I'm just stewing in my brain.

You have no one to talk about it with? I have one person and I don't tell her everything. Okay. That's good. I mean, honestly, that's a good thing, you know. It is, yeah, it's, it is a good thing. Unless you're just talking, unless you're talking to yourself constantly. I mean, yeah, I'm in my head all the time. Which is normal, but like you just have to check yourself every now and then. All right. Well, good luck.

Hopefully this is helpful. You're going to be all right. It's not as bad as it feels. And you have a lot of control to make it better. You're right. The thing you don't have control over is the time aspect, but even that, you can either increase it or decrease it. But, you know, you just have to allow a little time. to pass. But the amount of time you have to allow to pass is mostly dictated on how you move from

here on out. And do you allow yourself to keep thinking about him when that's your natural default, or do you get better at better at catching yourself and then stopping yourself? Do you do the little things? Do you throw out the memorabilia? Do you stop yourself from scoping out of social media block them if you have to if that's the thing that stops you. Do you catch yourself thinking about them and just say, I got to think about something else? Do you change the nerve in your head from, I can't get over him to, you know, I'm getting over him. It's all those little things. Again, the amount of time it takes is mostly based off of your ability to practice discipline with those little things and those boring things we do to stop thinking about and getting new routines

and new patterns and going from, we used to always do this on a Sunday together to doing something else for a few Sundays where that becomes the new normal. But living in the life that you used to have and then missing it, it keeps you stuck. But again, you relocating for a long period of time is a huge help.

Good luck on it. Thank you. I really, really appreciate it. Love the show. I did go back and listen to all the ones I had to skip. Well, thanks for that. I wouldn't take it. Listen, you love, you love, listen, I'm glad, I'm glad you're a fan.

You always see, you know, like me, like you love the relationship drama. And, you know, when it's your drama, it's, it's, it's tough to let go. But that is the path forward. Thank you. All right. Take care. Huge fan. Congratulations on, you know, good ones.

Thank you. And good luck with you. You're going to be okay. Thank you. All right. All right. All right. Bye-bye.

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That's Upwork, UP-W-R-K.com. How's it going? Good. Thank you. How are you? Good. What's your name? My name is Julia.

And I'm 31. And my question is he wants one kid and I've always wanted two. So is this a deal breaker? Are you guys married? Not sure. possibility my goal is marriage oh but you're not married now no no sorry okay you're dating yeah okay how long you been together uh since February and he wants one and you want more than one yeah if I honestly I felt kind of silly when this happened because we've

been talking and things have been going so well and then I I I usually when I'm because I'm dating on dating apps and usually what I do is I just like go right for something like that and ask like, do you want kids right off the hop? I don't want to waste anyone's time. And I'm trying to be intentional with my dating. And my last relationship ended abruptly after four years when you said he didn't want kids, even though I wanted them. So it's something that I typically lead with. And I don't know why I didn't with this one. But I did. And he said that he's never wanted kids. And then recently he changed his mind and he wants one. But that's a hard stop. And I've always been like two, three, four. So I'm kind of kind of. kind of like thrown off by that also very close with my siblings. So it's kind of like,

but then I start thinking about the economy and trying to provide for a kid that I want to give them a life that's full. You have one life. Right? You were born in 95. That's, that's, that's your life, you know? And what's ever going on in how many years you live, that will be your life, right? If you want to have kids, this idea that you can't have kids, because you were born in 95 or you shouldn't have kids because you were born in 95? Because like the economy isn't awesome right now. And I, you know, like the economy might change. I don't know.

You can't predict the future. So you're going to just, you're going to determine that, you know, that's this, that's not a way to make a decision about your life. I think it's just very interesting how complicated my brain makes something. And then you say it's so simple. And it's like, what a dumb thing for me to try and negotiate. after I hear it. Yeah.

Well, it's not dumb. I mean, you know, listen, like there's a lot of people. Like, there's just like women who want to invest in themselves, invest in their careers and got a sense of pride and accomplishment for chasing their dreams the same way men were encouraged to chase their dreams for generations. Like my mom, my mom had five brothers.

She was the second youngest of six. And she grew up in a very traditional old school household where like all of her brothers were encouraged to go to college and most of them did. and she never had a chance. She was Cinderella. She was literally raised as a housewife. That's not fair. It's like it's wrong.

It's kind of fucked up, you know? She had dreams too, but she was never given that possibility to chase those dreams. And, you know, obviously we have evolved as a society and rightfully so. We have changed the way we think about that.

And now there's so many women who do get to chase their dreams are encouraged to chase their dreams. The same way I'm going to encourage my daughters to chase their dreams. And even if they're not to encourage, and even if their dreams are to invest in their professional lives, et cetera,

et cetera. But that doesn't mean that like dreams change, you know, life changes, it evolves. And I think sometimes people are so worried to acknowledge that maybe, you know, sometimes,

you know, like I went to school to be an accountant. Yeah. You know, we, it's hard for us to like make real investments in things and then realize that maybe we don't want to do that anymore. And I think sometimes we often project our,

our shit onto other people, which is like why anyone would just like listen I'm not here to tell people to have kids or not have kids and when I talk to people like you who have an interest in having kids and are just asking about my personal experience of having kids in my life I'm I'm pretty passionate about that if you were to say like listen I'm not interested in having kids I'm not interested in trying to convince you why you should yeah you know because I think there's a lot of people out there who like if you don't want to be a parent like you're probably not going to be a good one yeah and it does it is a lot of work and it's a huge sacrifice and it's a lot it's also like one of the most it's the

most of the most of the people I know many of which are are professionals and and have lives outside of just like wanting you know yeah no the people I know and specifically the women I know didn't go from like high school to like mom or college to mom they their their their plan wasn't to be just a mom right but But the working women that I know and the people I know, I don't know a single one who hasn't agreed with me about the impact it's had on their overall sense of happiness and personal pride and purpose in this world.

But, you know, everyone has different than experiences. I do think as far as this particular thing that you're calling about, it is interesting that you ended a four-year relationship. And then I think it's a red flag for this new guy to go from, I didn't want to have kids, now I just want to have one. I guess it's, I would double click on that. Like, how did he go from none to one?

I think it's easier to go from one to two than none to one mentally. Yeah. And for me, the biggest hurdle is like that right there. It's like, how do you go from none to one? Because I know without a doubt I want to be a mom at some point. If I had it my way, I would have been a mom years ago, but just didn't meet the right person. So I've been careful with that.

And so for me, it's like, that's like, that's like, a non-negotiable like I want children if I'm able and capable to have it and I'd go so far if I don't meet a person then I would find other ways what's his reasons for not wanting to have kids he said that he is really enjoying his life of where he's at right now it feels full to him in his career his ability to travel his ability to how old is he have nice things do nice things he's 37 and he like he really would love to have a one wife and he's okay with having a child. He said, he specifically said, which I found interesting, that he wants to be a girl mom. I don't, for me, it's like, if I'm a mom, I'm a mom, like, I don't

really care, but I get it. People have preferences. That's fine. But he said that he would love to have a wife and a kid, but maintain his own identity and like his partner's identity and have them be like the, I guess the center. But he's like, and the kid comes along and joins them in their life. That he's like, his point of view is the second you add like a second or a third or a fourth, your life now revolves around the child and what you get to do with your own time changes. And he's very much like I need my own personal time. And I did talk about this with my sisters. I'm very close with both of them. And my one sister, she said to me, like he's in fire, like wildfire. So his job is super stressful. So his downtime is very much. He needs it.

Your boyfriend, you're the guy you're dating. Yeah. And I come from the world of first responders. So I understand the importance of downtime and time to yourself and not taking it personally. My sister said, what does that look like if you have a job and he has a job and then you have a child? And he doesn't like, is he going to be able to because you don't necessarily get downtime just because you want it when you have a kid. So there's just like so many moving parts to it. And the other than that, the two of us are great. It's just that one thing around the one kid and the two kids and how you go from none to one. And I do not want to change anyone's mind.

It's not. For me, it's like, do you actually want one? Or are you just saying that because I want two? And then, like, I don't know. That's the part that's hard. When did he change his mind? He said he changed his mind with his. He's been single for a couple years now.

And he changed his mind with his ex. who wanted kids and basically made it a non-negotiable where she wanted kids and he didn't want any. And then he was like, okay, I don't want to lose you type of situation and was willing to have one. That's where he switched. And then he said over time it's become like his friends have started having kids. And so over time it kind of grew into, oh, I could see myself being a dad someday, but he would only want one. My life is a little bit busy and chaotic. I'm living in two different, I'm from Canada, I'm living in two different provinces and I'm back and forth.

So like we, and we live four hours apart. So there's like, we see each other and we'll see each other for like three days and we talk a lot and have deep conversation and we face time and talk on the phone all the time. But like it's very different being in person and building a relationship and having conversation that can go on for a long time versus doing it over the phone. And then when I'm not in the same province as him, there's any, like we haven't seen each other for five weeks and all over. discussions have been over the phone. I don't like having this kind of conversation over the phone because for me, I'm a body language reader. You can tell a lot through body language. So I'd rather have a conversation around kids in person. So there's gaps that happen in between conversations, like serious conversations that we have too, which I think adds a layer to things right now.

Yeah, definitely makes more difficult. I mean, listen, I don't really agree with his logic. I mean, I need to be alone. I'm like I have that introverted aspect to my person. I mean, I don't understand, you know, the first responder aspect, I guess maybe I can't relate to. But listen, I don't know. Like, again, like this, we just went from, for most people, having kids being a part of life that you chose to do. Because it obviously, you know, or added value. Oh, maybe some people just did it because that's what they thought they're supposed to do. But and then we figured it out.

That's what our parents did. You know, that's what generations before us did. They just figured it out. Now we're like, I don't know. You know, it's like you're old enough to know that life just happens and we can plan a life that you think you want and then, you know, life will fuck you up that way. And yet we're still like so dead set on carving out this life. You know, listen, like obviously some people can't have kids. Some people choose not to have kids and it's not the end all be all to a happy life.

But I think part of the reason why people invest in families and, and, and, you know, that's, you know, and, you know, and life partners or choose to have children is because there is a bond there that you can't replicate. And I have some friends that I've had since high school, you know, they're still in my life. But, you know, as we get older, you know, friendships are harder to maintain. Yeah.

And it's just kind of one of those things where like who are going to be your people when you're 45 and 50. You'll have his buddies, but his buddies who all have kids, like their lives are only going to get busier and they're going to be like, sorry, man, I got my kid's soccer game to go to.

I'm not saying you should have kids just because you don't want to be lonely when you're 50, but all I'm saying is the part of him that's like, I think I need this, and I know what I'm going to need my whole life, and I want this for myself, and I don't know how a kid fits into that.

I'm just more like, you don't know how anything's going to fit into anything 15, 20 years from now. But if you do choose to invest in intimate relationships, like a life partner, and if you choose to have kids together, there is no doubt like a bond there. A lot of people fuck up that bond and certainly families can be torn apart and there's no guarantee. But, you know, the chances of you having something meaningful to invest in are probably greater than, hoping that you have three or four friends that also choose the same lifestyle that you chose and that you guys will always be there to hang out with. Who are your people going to be? I think that's part of like I see that myself. I worked with older adults. It was very interesting working with older adults that have children and working with older adults that don't. And when

they do reach old age, the complications of being older without having children. That's not like the only reason why I want kids, but there's a lot to that. And so I do hear what you're saying and that. Yeah. And the people who do have kids, they either appreciate the time they invest in their kids or they regret the time they didn't. And there's no in between. Yeah. But I think it just comes down to like, I don't want to convince him. So like I'm like, I'm like very like, is this just like a done deal then? Like I don't know how to have the conversation because I don't want to like, like to say what you say. I agree with everything you're saying wholeheartedly. But if I have that conversation with him, I feel like I'm trying to convince him in.

to something that maybe he really doesn't want. And if that's the case, then I don't want to try and, like, persuade him into something he doesn't want. And then there'd be, like, a resentment or he changes his opinion. Well, there's, you know, ultimately, and he's entitled to it, and he's not wrong. Like, I'm not, you know, it's just like, but his description of why he doesn't want to be a parent or only a parent to one is there are selfish, it's, there's a selfishness to it, which is fine.

Like, it's a sense, he is focusing on himself. that is selfish. And I know that might be triggering for some people who, like, we're listening, who have decided not. It says this is the definite, you know, he wants to focus on what he wants. The reality. That is the reality.

And that's fine. Yeah. He's entitled to that. Yeah. But, like, that is something for you to consider that his life and what he thinks he needs to have a happy life is to prioritize himself. Himself.

Yeah. Actually, now that you say that, that's very interesting because I've had other issues with him that I have thought about that piece of it. It's another pattern that shows up in our dynamic where... He's probably very comfortable at setting his boundaries and doing what he wants to do when he wants to do and not doing what you want to do. And he's probably more comfortable compromising less than you are.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And that's like also, too, I think for me because I hate calling myself a people pleaser. It's not a good thing. If you're a true people pleaser, it's not a good quality to have, but I am. And so I want to be very careful that I'm not doing that. that with him either. So I'm just kind of like, I don't know, I don't have to tell you, preaching to the choir here, dating when you're 31 on dating apps is not fun. So it's, uh, yeah,

it's like there's a, like, there's a layer of just not knowing who this person is at all. So you have to be very careful with it. But I tried to not let my other relationships get in the way. Well, knowing you are a people pleaser and, and knowing that you are dating someone who's pretty good at enforcing his boundaries and prioritizing himself. That is a red flag you should be aware of. And then you should challenge yourself at working through the discomfort of stating what you want at the risk of not getting what you want and then having to make a tough decision. I think that's probably very true. And I would say early in this, outside of the kids' conversation, I would practice asking yourself, what in this relationship am I maybe not getting?

and what in this relationship do I feel like I'm being a it's not necessarily equal and start expecting more quality in your relationship and see if he's willing to get there because if not maybe that's also your answer outside of kids yeah you know maybe the attraction for both of you is he's dating someone

who's good at compromising because he's good at setting boundaries and you're good and you're dating someone because you have a people pleasing quality and you have an opportunity to please him a lot by giving him what he wants and says he needs, which, you know, you're drawn to that. I am.

It's so funny. When I talk to you or listen to your podcasts, I'm always like, I know what I need to do and I know the confidence that I need to step into. And then a second I'm like getting a connection with another guy, it's like that people pleasing thing just comes crawling out. And I don't realize until I'm away from the situation and talking to other people,

how much I'm actually compromising myself. but when you're in it, it's like there's like a fog or a goggle on when you're in it. It's so like mind-boggling to me. But I've been talking a lot with some of my other friends that also listen to your podcast. And it's just so interesting as a woman when you do step into like that confidence and that power and stating what you want, how intimidating it is for other men. And that has led like me to say no to so many guys that I think I could have ended up in bad situations from it. So it is helpful to really like state what you want, what you need. and see if they can fulfill that.

And if they can't, that's fine. They're just maybe not your person. Yeah, it's a hard thing to do in action. It's really, but the reminders are important. I released a subset today. You should go read it. It's called I Am the Problem. It talks a lot about people pleasing or not.

It's just like different personality types. Yeah. It's free. You can check that one out. Maybe you'll find it helpful. I don't know. Okay. It's just kind of about like you have a baseline,

like a personality type. And then, but like that, but you can't. evolve and find the balance. Definitely. You know, knowing that you're more prone to the people pleasing personality,

you can, that'll always be something you have to work on. Yeah. But it is something you can evolve from and find the balance to get the type of relationships you want out of people.

Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't, yeah, it sounds like this is something you shouldn't ignore. His answer is already confusing. Do you really even want one or did you say that last time and now you're just saying that now

because you kind of already submitted or. And if you want one, like, what do you, what, like, why? Why do you want to be a dad? You know, what are your, like, I don't know. Like, if, if he reluctantly has a kid to appease you, then it doesn't sound like he's planning on and showing up much as a father, maybe. That would definitely be a risk. Definitely has to be more conversation around it.

I thought it was interesting because when it happened, it was like a three hour, like, it was, not a blow up, it was emotional. I was really upset when it happened. I was like instantly like, oh God, this is done. And I was at his house for the night and yeah, a long story. But it was a long thing. And then we just never talked about it again. So, and it's probably been like a month since the incident. So yeah, definitely needs another conversation. And I think you said something early about the pattern around not willing to compromise and being good at boundaries and being selfish. all patterns that yeah talking it out is bringing to my attention so definitely with more

conversation I did have another question around some of this stuff though is that when I am dating on dating apps I tend to like right off the hop want to ask all the hard questions like I can't handle the fun banter that goes on for too long and then you like skip over the values and do you want children where do you see yourself in five years that stuff but then it's hard because to balance it with not sounding like an interview, you're like, you know, I'm sure lots of people have this issue, but I just don't want to waste people's time or mine.

It's a balance. I mean, listen, you might, I guess the balance is you might have to go in a couple dates to get all the answers you need. And maybe on the first date, you don't have to interrogate them about kids and if they smoke or some other non-negotiables you might have. Like, you know, first you just want to see if you vibe.

If it comes up, I'm not saying it can't come up, but like, you know, it might be a second or third date question. And I don't think that's the end of the world of investing a few dates only to find out that they don't have a quality that you need. You know, and so maybe it's just spreading it out over the course of a couple dates because most likely, you know, most first dates you go on,

you probably don't want a second date, or at least you shouldn't, you know? Yeah. Like, you can't possibly value with that many people. And then it's just the discipline to not get so excited just because you had one good first date to tell yourself, oh my God, I think I found the one. And it's just more like, yeah, it was a good. There's a lot of potential there.

I vibe with them. You know, maybe need I ask, you know, maybe it's a good second date question. But got to ask, great first date. Do you want kids? But like, you know, you're 31. You're at the stage of life. It makes a lot of sense. You should be dating people who are okay with that question.

Yeah. That's true. You're not in your early 20s anymore. And assuming you're not dating men in their early 20s where it might be like, hey, you might not be ready for this yet. But I don't think it's that big, you know. Yeah. Also, like the kids question, that could be literally a,

if you're on the dating apps, honestly, like that could be a dating app question. That's true. Yeah. I don't, hopefully this was helpful. I don't know. No, it was. I think sometimes just like,

so silly, but hearing it from somebody else that you don't know at all, like, just like kind of almost like affirms and reiterates my thoughts. In general, I, I am alarmed by culture and how popular the position of not having kids is. Yeah, me too. It's, I don't think, I don't think it's for the good. I don't think it's for the good. No. I don't.

And I think it's valid in a lot of cases. And again, if you don't really want to have kids, don't have kids. I am sad for the people who are convinced not to have kids for silly reasons. Yeah, I don't know where it's coming from because some of the silly reasons, I almost feel like they're excuses for something else, but I don't really know either. I mean, I've always wanted children and I've always known that, but I like I come from a really small town.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Like, yeah, maybe they're excuses, but also like if you don't know what it's like to have kids and you haven't, maybe you don't have a like necessarily like a good, you know, maybe come from a broken home or whatever. and then the world is telling you how terrible it is and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I do think a lot of people are using the economy like myself, and this other guy has an excuse not to have children. I think that's part of it, but I don't know, that's just a guess.

But my sister said the same thing. She's got one child, the first in our family, and she's such a blessing, and they want another. When she first thought about having kids, she was always like, I don't know if I can do it. And I was like the fact that you have that mindset of like I don't want to mess anybody up. Like she didn't want to screw her kids up or anything like that. I'm like you obviously are meant to be a mom. You'll be fine. Don't worry about it.

And like that's the advice that I'm giving her. And then she's talking about finances. And it's like you can do it. You'll be fine. And so yeah. I mean, I grew up on hammy downs and yeah. I don't know. Like you just figure it out.

Yeah. Also, I've never understood the argument of like thinking. for your unborn child who doesn't exist and deciding on their existence for them because like they might have what money something like a tight budget that's like huh yeah we're we're contemplating the existence of a life because you don't because they might have to deal with a little adversity like it sounds like a silly reason yeah and I mean some of my best friends did not were not raised in households with money and they're doing amazing and they have lots of siblings

and they're doing well for themselves. So, yeah, it's not always the factor. You figure it out, you make it work. Your family's clearly living proof of that. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, I'm not even a people person, but it is the people in our lives that bring us to value.

Yeah. You know, those are the memories we have that, you know. And I wrote about this, like, even if a moment is about you, if you can't share it with anyone, what's the fucking point? You know, if you are celebrated by yourself with yourself in the middle of an empty forest, what's the fucking point? It's like, are you really being celebrated if you have no one to celebrate it with?

You know? What's the fucking point of a life? If you have nothing to share memories and moments with. And I also think just like the siblings too, like my kids, I can imagine like, I mean, it's a thing that I think about if something ever happened to me and my partner. now that kids like an orphan with no family. So it's always like I want them to have somebody else if they can. And there's no promise that their relationship will be like mine and my sisters. But it's just that fact that there's somebody else out there for them that has always been like my mindset around at least two children.

Sure. But to be honest, I think there's much better reasons to have kids than to plan for catastrophe. Totally. That's true. My mind does that a lot. That's, yeah. I mean, I think that's the way our just. generate other these generations it's just like I don't know fuck man shit's gonna happen it will happen not it's not a matter if it's when it will it bad things will happen so you don't are you suggesting no one should live their life because adversity might show up at your door one day and like that usually is the center of conversations around this topic and I find it to be

bizarre yeah that's a very good point I did not think about that at all but that is very true Well, I hope this was helpful. It was. Sounds like you have to have a conversation with your boyfriend. And maybe he's not your guy. Yeah. That's funny. My sister said, this is what you were going to say.

But listen, maybe he is your guy. But what you have to do is show up confident about what you want for yourself in your relationship and not apologize for it and give him permission and not make him apologize for his choices either. Because, again, you don't want to convince him. and that won't be the time to like suggest that he's selfish. You know, like it's, that's not going to be productive.

Yeah. He will only get defensive. No. You know. But if he is explaining a life that he wants that to you feels more selfish than the life that you want, then that should be your answer. Yeah. It's very true.

I just have to be high level about it and not get stuck in the weeds of everything. It's easy to play mental gymnastics about it all. But when you think about it just from that standpoint right there that you just mentioned, it's very clear as day. All righty. Awesome. Thanks for the call. Thank you so very much. All right.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye.