The Viall Files - E1161 - The Most UNHINGED Ultimatum Reunion EVER with Killian, Jessica Grace and Edris

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  We're breaking down The Ultimatum reunion, the In The City reunion, and the latest Love Island breakups. Then Killian joins to address the backlash, his edit, the group chat, and what accountability looks like after the show. Plus, Jessica Grace and Edris stop by together to reveal where they stand now, unpack their reunion fight, therapy, reconciliation, and what comes next. "Nothing I say will make it any better…" Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE? Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content? Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Cash App: New Cash App customers can earn $10 if they use code FAMILY10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Chewy: Right now you can save $20 on your first order and get free shipping by going to https://chewpanions.chewy.com/viallfiles  Fatty15: You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to https://fatty15.com/viall and using code VIALL at checkout. Quo: Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://quo.com/viall  Wayfair: Ready to upgrade your home for way less? Head to https://wayfair.com right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less. To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 28:14 - In the City 45:40 - Killian Joins 01:10:01 - The Ultimatum 01:29:07 - Jessica Grace and Edris Join 02:04:24 - Outro Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @susiecevans @ciaracrobinson @jg_booker @escissorsman @thekilliangrondin @the_mare_bare @justinkaphillips @baybaeee

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I think I sound less sick, right? You sound less sick, yeah. Yeah, just a little gravelly. Just a little. It's like... It's vibey. Yeah, it's like when Phoebe got sick and did smelly cats. and it sounded cool.

So you don't sound like yourself in my headphones. I don't? Like in a good way. Oh. Yeah, for sure. Welcome back, Sierra. Welcome back. How was Sierra?

Sorry. Welcome to reality recap. I'm your host, Nick, joined by the lovely household. Sierra is back. Susie's here. Mary Justin, it's a full household. Natalie says hello. She is thriving at home with the babies and sends her love.

And I think she'll pop in soon, hopefully. We have a jam-packed episode. Lots to get into. Almost too much. We had the just absolutely bananas, Altamatum reunion. Oh my God. But it made like the finale almost like really pointless to watch.

Yeah. Yeah. Because like everyone got engaged, but it's like next episode, everyone's broken up. Nobody worked out. Not everyone. Congratulations to David and Casey.

David and Casey. Monica. And Luke. And Luke. The couples that I was like, yeah, they might work out. Did work out. And the ones that I was like, I can't believe you're getting engaged. You know, they got God on their side.

So like, you know, they seemed like they were. Yeah. They seemed like they were never. It's like they got to engage in her being out of this. Yeah. Yeah. I felt that at my core. And then I didn't while watching.

But, David, I feel like, listen, I love as a progressive man. Mm-hmm. I emphasize the word progress. And what I love is people who make fucking progress. Like, it's not interesting to be like, yeah, no, it's like, I had a great childhood. Like, David seems like he's really been through some stuff. And while he maybe showed some cracks throughout this season, as a reality TV stars do, like he seems like he's making progress.

And that I find to be uplifting. So, like, shout out to David. I never think these shows are actually made for, like, lasting relationships. Even for the couples who do last, I'm like, there's really nothing. In my opinion, I'm like, there's nothing you can get from this. But I will say the conversation that he had with Madison's dad, I actually think that probably benefited him and his relationship. And I'm like, wait, you're changing my mind a little bit

that this show actually might help people stay together. I think people on these shows, L'AlTamomatom, Love is Blind, age of attraction, Love Island, The Bachelor, like, you, I mean, it fucks you up in a way that, like, if you want to, like, you know, do something about it, you can definitely learn about yourself for sure. you can make some meaningful changes. It will certainly, like we talked about with Love Island, like movie night,

it will literally shine a mirror about like how you come across, you know, who you are. And if you are open to not blaming the edit and the producers for every little thing that you don't like, it is an opportunity for some growth. And I also think they kind of take out

a big struggle for a lot of people with just like the ring and getting to that place and figuring out the why and it's never the right time where I'm like, I do think those types of shows where it's like, hey, we're going to provide you a ring in an environment to, like, test the relationship, I guess, is the term of it. But, like, yeah, ordinarily, you're not going to be in a relationship where you get to go and date or have a trial marriage with a complete stranger that you happen to be attracted to and see what happens. Personally, not for me.

But, like, I do commend because you have to be a strong, little type of person or really need that test to be able to sign up for a show like this and then be like, okay, no harm, no foul. Yeah. Because I'd be like, what the fuck was that? It sounds like it ruined a lot of the relationships for that reason. It also sounds like there were some relationships that I wanted to know a lot more about during the show. Well, hopefully we'll get a chance to learn more about them. And again, we have a jam-packed episode. A lot is going on in the reality TV news.

We just found out Nick and Alandrio broke up. We have Trinity's alleged situation ship guy from her past is popping off in the comments. Like a lot of that's going on and we'll discuss that in the city reunion. I have a lot of thoughts. I've felt VO activated and we'll get into that as well. My biggest thought is, Lindsay, everyone else needs to step up more.

I couldn't agree more. Lindsay is like being required to pull the weight and now she is being forced to come across to trying to paint like come on. Like if Whitney's your villain in the city, you don't got a show. Yeah, that's so real. I have so much more to say and we'll get into that.

We do from the ultimatum have Killian with us. A lot is going on. I mean, we got some very serious allegations, which the ultimate, I'm sure the people, the good people at Netflix, it must be a challenge to how do they address that? Do they not address it? Because it was definitely something that was like, and he put me his hands on me. And then it was like, breezed over. Yeah. Right. In this type of situation, sometimes you can really learn a lot about yourself. And that's what the ultimate. Was that the exact transition? No, but. But it was like along those lines. It was along those lines. Where I'm like, it was so casually breezed over, and it was multiple people saying the same terminology, multiple women that were like, and you put your hands on me that night.

And it was just like, oh, and now we're just going to jump over to so-and-so. Haley and Ashley are with us next week for what I assume is going to be an explosive going deeper. They got a lot to unpack, and especially Haley, who clearly had more to say and things to share. The receipts. The receipts. Yeah. I think we'll get them. Yeah.

I've got a lot of questions. next week. Today we have Killian, who apparently is a dad. Yeah. Yeah, he popped off on Instagram and said, surprise. He dropped a video. Yeah, I'm a dad. I'm not entirely... Is this sound bad that I don't entirely believe him? And I, but only because it was like, is he trolling us? It was like, surprise him a dad is like a weird way to introduce your kid. Also, is he, is it a distraction from, honestly, like, I literally came in this morning not knowing he was a father and then you guys told me. And one of my biggest questions because, like, I'm not trying to have

Killianine just to throw fucking lasers at them. And I'm curious, I'm curious, this one of, but as a new dad myself of three young daughters, I am far more like, think about, like, I'm, you know, I'm worried for my daughter. Like, I'm worried for young men. I, when I watch these shows, it's just like, Jesus fucking Christ.

The pandemic really did a number. And I generally just, like, most of my questions for kill. are going to be just like, yo, like watching this back, you know, if how, you know, what would you say to your future partners and maybe their fathers who like, who might, you know, have some pause about the possibility of dating someone like you, but not to learn that he's a father. I am really curious what he is going to say. Am I crazy or in the show? Didn't they literally verbatim say what would, what would you say to your daughter? Remember the trial? It was with Ashley.

And Blake, Blake said that to Ashley about her relationship. And then didn't her dad bring it up as well and said something about it? Were they actually referencing his daughter? We'll have to find out. Why is there more lore to the season of the ultimatum than like an MCU movie? I'm so locked in after the show is. Well, if there's nothing else we do really great is pulling back all the meat on the bone. That is left.

I don't eat leftovers in real life, but like when it comes to like... You're giving Blake. He was doing all these metaphors the whole time. I love a good food. Metaphor? Yeah, analogy, that's what it is. Yeah, sometimes I feel like a little deformed raccoon just searching through the trash. And that's my transition.

Mary and Justin are in dying to talk about this raccoon. What's going on? Jimithy. Okay, so basically in Seattle, really quick, you guys, if you haven't heard about this, there's this raccoon in Seattle. He's like, his name is Jimothy, and he has a rare short spine disease. And he was roaming the streets, stealing food from trash cans, and just like freaking people up.

But look at him. Look at that puff ball. She is so cute. Also, the WNBA team, the Seattle Storm, when Natisha Heidman shot a three, they had a little graphic that went across the screen at the game that said, Jim a three. And it was Jimothy holding a little flag. Was this your way of bringing up the WMBA? No, that actually, I really just wanted to talk about Jimothy.

and the fact that there was a Jimithee WNBA crossover got me really excited as well. But in general, it's just like I, can we? To be honest, he walks like a little almost like a human. Yes. I know, look at him. It's a little unsettling and also very endearing. No, it's the most endearing thing on earth.

I'm more on the unsettling little like put it in a scary movie. No. Totally. It's like a skinwalker. That's like me when I come home. That's when I come home. It's like what I talk about him like rummaging. Yeah, the people in Seattle, he's kind of like becoming a local cryptid type.

There's CCTV footage of him like going through the trash and find Seattle, so maybe that's why. Exactly. It's like give them something. It's always so rainy. I mean, they didn't have the Super Bowl champion. I was going to say about a split-in, space needle, I Carly, Jimothy. He's a cute little nugget. Look at him.

Yeah. It's really giving like body positivity. He's running around Seattle. He's a little bit around. This is all paparazzi footage. Yeah. GMZ. They're tracking them?

Yeah, Jimothy watch Oh my God, look at those hands Jimmy, the raccoon! Wait, also, should we be concerned He's out during the day Nobody get near him, right? What do you mean? Why?

Ravis, raccoons don't murmurons in the day Coming across him. Can we verify that? Can we make our AI like a... That's not true, but it's not normal for a... Like a personality on a show, like a... Oh, Rabies isn't sure? It's not true that it's...

Oh, yeah. Like a Janet from the Good Place kind of thing? Yeah. Like an all-knowing just robot? Like Big Brother. I mean, that's eventually something that is going to be a thing. Let's lead the charge. Okay.

We could just talk to it on the show. And they'd be like, no, you guys are stupid. Not that you're stupid. But like, yeah. Yeah, if that said that to me, I'd be like, oh, okay, cool, cool. I quit. Every time you say something, that's er. I just like that we went from Jimithy, the Little Raccoon to, what if we had an AI?

What if we integrate an AI guest or host on the show? Not guest, but just like a fact finder. Yeah, I actually like that. By the way, Justin, the AI host found the fact within. two seconds. That's true. Don't know that you need to invent. Justin is our AI.

Don't want to replace the jobs. Anyway, I just wanted to talk about Jimithy really. You know who we could replace? Who? Kenny. Leave it at that. Yeah. Yes, it's been a big week for Love Island breakups.

I think Nick and Elandrio have a deep love and affinity and friendship. For sure. And if there was more than that into their relationship, they clearly didn't show it. And that is their relationship.

That is their prerogative. And this is no shade to them. I just like, you guys are carrying on this, like, reputation from being beloved on the show that I'm like, if things kind of fell apart or you guys were so busy and couldn't spend time together. It makes sense that I'm like, oh, we didn't really see them together a lot towards the end of their relationship, but kind of keeping the friendship alive. And then you announced it. And it's like, okay, no harm, no foul.

It's been a year. That's honestly kind of how I feel. I hate when people have conspiracy theories about, like, oh, there's a contract or whatever. but I low-key feel like I'm like, it is very suspicious timing to be almost exactly a year. Weird timing. Weird timing and I hate the conspiracy theory of it all, but

I'm very much on the no harm, no foul. I like both of y'all individually and I bet they have a lot of respect and love for each other. They have mutual love and understanding. Totally. Nick is a DJ, Anilandria is just like a business fashion. Exactly. When she got her new apartment where I'm like obviously like, you know,

you guys were dating for a year so you don't need to buy a place together, but I was just kind of like, interesting. You know what I mean? Like if you're like with your forever person, you're like, well, maybe I'll see how you fit in the equation. I also don't. I think with the two of them, what I really always loved about Nicodendria and Nicolandria was just their mutual support for each other. Right. Like it always seemed. So their friendship. Yeah. I mean, honestly, yeah, their friendship. Like, and I think it was a thing of regardless

of whether or not there was like a romantic aspect to that friendship or not, which after watching Love Island, there was something there. It wasn't like there was nothing between them. Really quickly before we move off, they issued why they broke up. They said the distance between them and their busy schedules made it challenging to maintain their connection. They still remain close friends at this point.

They share a deep love and respect for each other and will always support one another whenever possible. As a Nicholandria defender, I absolutely love them. I saw them very close. I don't know, I think we have different algorithms. Does this change anything? It changes nothing for me.

I think they were just, they just were not living in the same. I think, because I see them together all the time. also did too. Oh, wow. So I think maybe because, it's okay, maybe because I'm a Nicolandria fan and I think that they were a beautiful couple. But that'll just be, that'll just be me on my soapbox. I will always think they were real. Bailey, I love you. I love you as well. Thank you. But, you know, everyone can have their opinions and I think they do have a lot of love and respect for each other, clearly. I've always just thought that they looked hot together, so I didn't really care if it was real or not. No, I agree.

genuinely always been my take I'm just like beautiful give me more speaking of anniversaries now you have Kenny oh a year after the breakup he decided to do a podcast

is there a contractual is it a year after the breakup yeah because I'm like that so wait they broke up they also broke up they broke up a year after the show and this is a year after their breakup

is that like an astrology thing Is it in the stars? Well, if we're asking about the stars. I definitely don't think Kenny and Jeney had any type of relationship contract. Well. No, but what about a silencing contract of sorts? Does there a limit to that?

Like, could there have been like a year thing of like, hey, keep your mouse shut for a year? Sees and desist? Astrologically speaking, there was just, we're getting out right now of this really intense Mercury retrograde and cancer, which... It seems like every, every... Is Mercury always in retrograde?

No, but this mercury... It goes in retrograde... quite frequently and it's always known to like mess up communication and like this one specifically was depending on your sign like it was really about communication and relationships and then like giving you clarity surrounding like whatever answers you like needed so a lot of people if you found yourself having these like really intense situations where you didn't know what was happening and you felt like a lot of like things just weren't landing and then you kind of like through this time the past month like realized what you needed to realize about it and kind of feel a little

bit more settled. I think that was the Mercury Retrograded. But it's been, at least in my experience, if you believe in astrology, awful. I heard it's a really good time for Leo's, and I'm a Leo. And they say, I'm about to pop the fuck off. Yes, because if you guys are ready. I'm feeling hot today. Sorry, you're all you retrograders.

Because it's been kicking my ass. Okay? I'm so sorry for you guys. I feel great. So, like, Kenny basically went on some podcast. Told a bunch of lies according to Jenae. And Cordell. And Cordell.

Yeah, Cordell popped in, basically. And Jinnay responded and she was like, my lawyers are going to take care of this far. He made some serious accusations. Yeah, verbal abuse said she put his hands on him. And then she turned around and claimed, actually, I was going to call the cops on you. Oh, my God. And I'm sorry, but I'm just like we're talking two years later. You sent her a cease and desist and then go on a podcast to talk about your relationship, sobbing.

And also, he did this really weird reality. TV show as well. That was kind of like a big brother thing. It's like a soap opera? It's like a soap opera reality TV show and he was like super exaggerative, super like erratic. I don't know. He's booked it busy. No, no. That was a reality TV show in another country. And it's just like. Can you that's not booked and busy? He should have left it at that. But what I'm saying is that I'm like this just seems like another thing where it's like didn't get the relevancy you wanted from that. So now two years later we're going to go on a podcast and try to expose. I mean, in the history of reality TV breakups,

there has never been someone more gracious than Jene Craig, especially given the context of what was out on the internet. And if you don't remember, like, it was basically discovered that, like, he was sending, a la like Killian almost, like sending some very nasty messages to his boys about Jeney that included, like, some pretty racist commentary and, like, just really horrific.

Racist, misogynistic, homophobic, all the things you don't want. Not the way like Lindsay was calling Kenny misogynistic at the reunion. Right. It's not an umbrella. It was just literally, it was point blank period.

Point blank period. And she just gave him a fucking hall pass. Like in a, like just, she chose peace. Yeah, she was so gracious. She took the high road and was like, she took the highest of roads. She took the highest of roads and let him off so easy.

She didn't do any, any interviews, nothing. She just let it fucking go and lived her life. And lived her life. And a year later, this motherfucker comes back. And tries to come for?

And sobbing as if, like, it happened yesterday. Like, I'm sorry. He's trash. Are you kidding me? Anyway. I still think Jenae is going easy. Protected Jenae Craig. Yeah.

I'm sure this is not fun for her. No. So. My favorite part about her post was she was like, I'm sure, like, the funds are low. And, like, now my lawyers are coming for you. So you're going to be negative. I hope it was worth it. Yeah.

I hope Janay's lawyers. Never been more pro lawyer. in the legal team of Jinn A. Craig. That's like Aaron Brockovich type shit for me. Get him. And I remember in the interview, like a clip that I saw was him being like, yeah, and then having these brands, you know, like making money about like poking jokes at. And I was like, honey, like they poke jokes at the situation.

Nobody mentioned you. Like I'm like, you did the crime. Do the time. Exactly. I saw like a clip. It was around that part where I was like, I could have been in France. I'm like, what the for you talking about? What do you mean?

Yeah. entitlement is what you're talking about. But I also just literally didn't know what he meant. I think he thinks instead of like the circumstances being based off of his actions, he's like, she took that away from me. Or like with this breakup and picking sides where it's like, no, it's everything that you did and how everything went about, which is why you lost the opportunities that you lost. It's not because you guys broke up.

People break up all the time and are still having opportunities to be in the public eye. When you're saying racist things about your fucking girlfriend, people don't really want to fuck with you, let alone hire you, sir. Nope. Yeah, and more. He said more. You know what I mean? And that's just like scratching the bare minimum of the surface of what is wrong

with this man and how he's going about his quote-unquote business. Yeah, sometimes men freak out when they realize their actions have consequences. You know what I mean? It's crazy. Do we care that Trinity's, I don't know, someone from her past is trying to claim their relationship? No, it's giving to me the Love Island, Love is Blind. Oh my God, I can't believe the man who ruined.

my life is and it's like, did you guys even date? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it sounds like she told him, if this is all true, that she told him she's going on a dating show and that... Just trying to be pretty upfront. Yeah. And if I meet somebody and I have a connection, it's going to be a no-go. But if not, maybe we can see if we can rekindle something later on. And guess what? She fucking won. She famously fell in love. I actually am so glad. I feel like the tides have turned a little bit. I think like five years ago, I was going to say, people would criticize you for having... a dating profile leading up to being on the show. You couldn't have been gone on a date while you were going through casting. Right. Because like the fucking...

The wolves would come. I mean that... I remember thinking... Like the Bachelor bloggers would make a fucking career out of like trying to like catch you in some sort of act of like communicating with the opposite sex while going through the casting process.

And castmates. Pilot Pete had to deal with this. It was like, oh, he like broke up with me. Yeah. Like to go on the show and then you find out that they like dated in December. Right. And it's like, but first of all, like, the first, like, casting meeting I ever had was in December.

Yeah, exactly. So, like, okay, like, maybe he broke up with you because he got the call and realized he didn't let you. Yeah. Like, yeah, so many exes will make their entire, like, you know, existence or brand around the fact that, like, the person they, like, once Matt, yeah.

Yeah. Like, then later on in life went on a reality TV show. And in their narrative is they broke up with me to go. Like I was the reason. And that's why I said congrats on the viral video. Right. You know what I mean? I hope you have more to offer after the fact.

Because I'm just like if your claim to fame is the fact that a guy that you dated that screwed you over one time is on a show dating somebody else. Like I'm like that's just life. They don't like anymore. Yeah. And they didn't begin with a god. Like the funniest thing is it's Trinity. And this guy and it's like Bryce, you know, like you watched her have the most beautiful love story and you're making this about you. You know what I mean.

I actually had this thought yesterday. You know how arranged marriages are famously, like, are more successful than the marriages that we choose for ourselves in America? Even if, let's say, Nick and Alandria, we're kind of like, yeah, you're my friend and I respect the hell out of you, and America wants us to date, so fuck it. Or like Bryce and Trinity, where it's just like they were a slowbird, you know, they kind of like, they were together because everyone else

matched up with everyone else. And then we're like, well, fuck it. Yeah, you're hot. I'm hot. We're friends. And maybe even if they're not like, you know, hot for each other, like in the way Melanie and sincere and a toxic way are. But, like, maybe, like, reality TV is like America's versions of an arranged marriage.

Because, like, the reality is, it's like, you can't deny that, like, Bryce and Trinity, like, they have millions are on the line. Like, to get, you know, Trinity's. they're going to be fine, but together, there is so much opportunity in front of them. And like, who would ever pass that up? So, like, if there is, like, this mutual respect and connection and, and love, you know, like, maybe it's like one of these, like,

almost, it's like an arranged relationship that truly can blossom and flourish and be as incredibly successful as any other relationship, like, like, you know, an arranged marriage where, you know, they, it's like, you know, we, you know, because the idea, when you've talked to people who have arranged marriages, I think there's something along the fact of like they just like, we were together. And then we focused on our bond, our connection rather than like making our whole relationship around like the meet cute of how we met and like, oh my God. And we're so obsessed and like, oh my God. Like I don't know.

Maybe it's like maybe it's like that. No, I agree with that because it's kind of like what Trinity's mom said when she came to visit where she was kind of like, you know, I'm proud of you for going out and trying some, you know, trying something different where I'm like just because it's not in the package that you thought it was going to come in. it's like, but really giving love a shot. And it's just like, again, to her point, she also said that she didn't think that she would have paired with Bryce originally. So it's like, yeah, I think with the encouragement and also the environment and it's just like you can't deny that connection, it just kind of, I think it just works. Yeah. But it's like it's because of the environment that you're in.

If you guys were at a bar together on a Friday night, you guys probably wouldn't have even spoken to each other. Yeah. And I think there's also something to having such a trauma bond isn't the right word. but just like this connection that they have with each other, that literally no one else is going to be able to understand. Yeah, the shared experience. I agree. I think that maybe they wouldn't have approached each other in public,

but I kind of love that. And honestly, I actually met a couple that was an arranged marriage on a plane once, and I was like, I was so intrigued. I was like, we'd have never, I asked them so many questions. And their thoughts on it were like, we love it. They were like, we, you know, it was weird at first and we first met each other. But then they were like, it honestly was a choice. And you make the decision every day to stay in it.

And we grew to love each other. And they're like, our relationship is so much healthier than most people that we know because we just decided, hey, we're going to do this together. And they made the choice every day. It really sucks if you find the other person ugly. Oh, I can't imagine. Yeah, that would be horrible. But Trinity and Bryce.

Yeah. I'm like, they're obviously beautiful. They maybe didn't, yeah, come in the package they perceived or they thought that they would. But I'm like, with the right encouragement, like you said, millions on the line. I mean like, why not give it a go? And I feel like it's kind of a nice little push to try something new, you know? I said, I think even with the arranged marriage of it all, I feel like it just takes out the superficial things that you tend to focus on where it's like,

oh, I don't like it that you chew with your mouth open or like, you know what I mean? Because when you meet somebody a lot of the times it's superficial, so it's like hot, hot, and then how do you build down? That's so true. You know, I think what makes my marriage with Natalie feel as strong as it is, is like, I invest all my energy into her in that relationship. And now we work together. We've built a family together.

Like our relationship, we don't like, every once in a while we reminisce how we met. But like it's based off of like what we've built together. Exactly. You know? And so as a couple when you like, you know, are with each other over a period of time and you make choices to just stay together

and you build things together, whatever it is, maybe it's a career, maybe it's a family, maybe it's a little bit of both, whatever it is. That is something that you have, you wake up every day with like this mutual, you know why you're waking up kind of thing. And you know why you are fighting for the relationship.

And when you have that disconnect, you know why you're like motivated. Yeah. To like get reconnected because you're not just in it for yourself. Like, you know, early in a relationship, it's just like, well, you know, I just like, I have the butterflies. And like, if I don't feel the butterflies,

then like, fuck it, you know? And then as soon as that person gives you the ick, you're like, eh. Yep. Yeah. You know. We were never compatible anyways. So, yeah, like when you have a shared purpose that's greater, that feels bigger than yourself, you know, and there's a goal to, like, work towards something, that is, that is, like a cheat code for a relationship, you know?

And on top of that, I think it's very obvious that they have so much chemistry. Like, I feel like Elander and Nick, I feel like, even by the end of Love Island on their season, they were kind of like, well, like, oh. Yeah. Oh, okay. They want us together And they kind of were like, okay I will never forget soul ties And they were hot They were hot for sure

But it's like it's Brinetti They feel more Like it was less forced Not forced But it was less pushed on them And more organic in my opinion So it was also so different Because Bryce and Trinity

We were together from the beginning That's true And then it's like I mean Bryce crying Bryce crying Come off after The moral The Morrigan of the villa

There's no way he's that good of an actor He's been in Hollywood too long, if he was that good with that phase, he would have been a working actor. Yeah, he would have been... He still should be. Someone put him in a movie. Yeah, like he would have been a teen star.

Also, little Vile Files, Laura, did we know that Leah from here was in acting class with Bryce? Yeah. No way. Yeah. We did love. I forgot about that. No.

No, but she just, like, she messaged me one day and was just like, tell me why I couldn't figure out why Bryce looked so familiar. And then she was, like, going through, like, text because I guess she still has them. He was her acting partner. Yeah. I wonder if he was a sweetheart.

She said he was and he was very sweet. All right. We got to get into In the City. In the City. All right. Reunion. Okay. What do I want to start?

First of all, did it not feel like Amanda's not even on the show in the city? It was almost as if they like brought her on. They invited her to the in the city reunion to get like a redo. The follow up. Right. Because she like, you know, obviously bombed. And then like, she's like, It's not on the show.

Amanda and Kyle. They were like the face of the show. Like they were supposed to be. And then obviously, even if the, even them breaking up. Okay, that's interesting. Okay, cool. Like now married couple breaks up. What is it like for those two people to date in the city?

There's a storyline. But yeah, it was like, what the fuck? You know, like it just felt like. They're not even a part of it. But I also said. Because they started the reunion. And we got Amanda's whole like, which is kind of what I said on Tuesday. It was like, I wasn't expecting much.

And we got the, I got a more like an uninterrupted version. And more lives. I was like when she was just like, well, I didn't take anything. No, I was on a Betabacher. I just shut down. I was like, girl, I've seen you shut down on this show that that was. I wrote down like this. Amanda continued stuff that was in here because it was only like the first maybe 10 minutes of the reunion.

Yeah. And then they just moved on and it was like they should have just asked Amanda to leave like they do on so many other reunions. I'm like, well, thanks for coming. Well, as Kenny said, that was the most like, what is it, best thing that you said this whole time sitting here or something? Like we needed her later on in the reunion too. Oh, yeah. What did she say? But all that was was her saying, like, confirming what Kenny was saying.

If we've learned anything that we all shouldn't speak over when someone's talking or whatever it was. Yeah, but that's, that's, that's like... Anyone could have said that. Yeah, that's like, that's commentary. That's not being a part of the cast of a reunion. And I've actually seen that take be had on Vanderpump rules. They'd be like, you all jump on the same person with the same mentality. Well, yeah, most likely people that are good friends think the same in the sense of like what's right and wrong of how to treat people.

My biggest takeaway is the rest of this cast needs to step the full. fuck up because like you're making Lindsay Hubbard work too hard. I'm sorry, like I said earlier, like Whitney, Whitney is not your villain. If Whitney is your villain on this show, you don't have a show. I also said, I'm like, I just wish that they would just have changed the show or the show would have been called Lindsay in the City. And then all of this would make more sense because she is the star of the show. She is the connection to everyone. And again, where it's like you're kind of baiting us with the Kyle and Amanda of it all is if we're going to get more answers where obviously you picked up cameras post reunion through something in the front, through something

at the end and it's just like but then these questions that we're getting at the reunion it's just like okay we're just recapping what we already knew at the reunion i mean couldn't you imagine if kenny wasn't on the show what what the fuck would they talk about and the whole like mean girl conversation it's just like okay that never goes well on reality yeah but to be honest to be honest though like what do you expect Whitney and Kenny to do when you show up and like he says a couple things in a conversation with a friend and maybe, you know, certainly some of the things he said didn't land and certainly are open for like questions, but they made the whole like narrative going after this relationship. And again, I don't know Whitney that much. Like she was on my

season of The Bachelor. Like what I know most about Whitney is that she's like very close slash best friends with Rachel Lindsay and the handful of times I've talked with Rachel over the years and Whitney's name comes up. She's only being described as like just the name. nice. She's like Minnesota nice. She's like the nicest person in the world. Yeah. I think Yvonne, it made sense when Yvonne talked about the mean girl comment where she was like, what I didn't like is that you

didn't give Whitney a chance to like be friends with us because you already gave her that bias of like, where the main girls. How is that like Kenny's responsibility? Like it's the boyfriend, it's the toxic massage. Well, he brought her. But you know, no, but like they played in the narrative because again, like this entire cast

decided to go after Whitney? and Kenny and like not clearly not go after each other like hey listen this is the fucking show we have Lindsay like just like out of nowhere just calling Kenny a gaslighter like I mean she's just like name calling him because like she has to work so goddamn hard because apparently no one's giving anything Georgina did kind of eat down on Lindsay said eat down in the sense of like she was going in for no reason no but I want them to go after listen it's not interesting knowing that they're all friends and knowing that Lindsay is obviously such a big personality

and kind of like the leader of this group. And so all of her friends that Kenny is accusing of being minions, I know that doesn't necessarily land, but it plays in that narrative because like all they're doing is just agreeing with Lindsay. And they're not willing to call each other out and like get into their. Lindsay ruined the wedding. Like come on. Like they made a bigger deal about like some shit between Whitney and Kenny than the fact

that Lindsay showed up at a wedding and just like decided to make that moment to try to save the marriage of Kyle and Amanda and scream and stand like come on well like the finale drama is literally over who got a room in an Airbnb yeah like when you really break it down where it's just like oh who said who and who is invited and who is entitled and it's this mom comment where I'm just like I too would probably be annoyed if it was like a group thing and you're trying to do something nice for someone else and then you guys are come back with like well we deserve it because and it's like not a conversation I'm also like this is the dumbest thing to be carrying on to be finale drama let alone reunion funnel.

Especially when Whitney's like, yo, I definitely shouldn't have said that. It came across the wrong way. I regret saying it that way because that she was wrong for saying it. Yeah, but then if you're Lindsay,

you can't necessarily let Whitney's apology be taken because to your point, you're the only one working here. And here's my question, what would the show be if Scamanda had not happened? You know what I mean?

It's like, I think the show has still been entertained. No, I think the shit. I would have watched it. I almost wonder if it would have been better because then Kyle and Amanda

would have been within the drama of the show rather than siphoned in their own. It's the season one. You know? I'm just saying they better fucking step it up. No, I heard that the show had to take a shift with editing because of Skimanda where it was like the actual storyline,

hence why Katie DeLuca was cut from so much, was that she was on as a supporting character for like all of the shit that Kyle was doing. So that was like a big storyline was like the reason as to why Instead of it just being like Amanda apartment hunting and isn't she going to live with him, that there was more to the story between the two of them. And then when all the scimanda stuff happened, they like reconfigured. They also reshot confessionals and put Amanda in. So that's where the timeline of the season is. Yeah. The season was just a little back and forth. Yeah. So I wonder if almost like season two of in the city, given they get a season two would actually feel way more normal because the show can actually be like what it is without having to complete.

re-edit it. I must have been watching a different show because I thought there was a lot of other drama in the show. I just think it was only, it was a limited series that was shorter, so I think they just had to condense. I guess I'm just basically off a reunion.

But do you think like they addressed it? I mean, there's a whole second part where like they're talking about like the wedding more, right? And then like other aspects like Danielle. So I think we just saw like this. Well, part one of two, which is half of the reunion was 10 minutes of cleanup of Scamanda and then essentially an attack of Whitney and Kenny.

And I'm also like, I have an issue with, I think, with these reality TV shows with how people apologize. I feel like I bring this up on different shows all the time. But it was also in the ultimatum. It's also in this show where I was like, I think we've just lost the art of how to apologize to each other because it's a lot of therapy speak. It's a lot of like, I'm sorry that if what I said made you feel that way, that wasn't the intention. And it's like, okay, but then you're now insinuating that I'm overreacting or that like because. Who's about apology or you're critiquing? Whitney and

She said No, but I agree with Sierra too Sheking Whitney and also Blake on the ultimatum. She said like, I'm sorry if what I said made you feel that way. It wasn't the intention. She did say I misspoke.

Yeah, and that's what I was saying. She took complete, but that's what I'm saying is like the same thing what Amanda said where it's like if you apologize, you have to be able to apologize without a butt and without having to defend yourself because then it just negates the actual apology.

And Blake was apologizing to Haley during the ultimatum And it was just like, but I poured into you. Or like all of these people using this like weird therapy talk as if it's like, well, I'm entitled to something from you because I've poured into you. Which by the way, that's what I thought about with. And I love Kenny and Whitney. But they had me sold on the sorry until it turned into him being like, Lindsay, you collect

apologies like you collect souls. And I'm like, now it got petty. And I'm like, you need to like leave the thing. That's a pretty good movie. It's such a sound bite. It's so funny. But it defeats the purpose of the sorry. And you don't know Lindsay well enough to say that.

But if you've watched Lindsay on TV for the last 10. years you feel justified to say something like that. Imagine what it was like to be there. Oh, true. I mean, highly edited. So I imagine they were just yelled at for a long period of time. At some point, you're just like, you know, fuck. And this is after an apology.

True. And then you get yelled at for an hour. Right. And it's just like, all right, cool. If I were in the cast, like hearing the minion comment, like, yeah, that's not a nice thing to say, but I'm like, it feels just kind of like a brush off thing that didn't have to be such a big deal. But if I were in the cast and I'm not Whitney.

I'm not like I don't know I think I would be annoyed as well I'm not saying that these people are her minions but I'm like they're all her close friends and it is kind of like you're the outsider you're the the odd ball out and I'm like she seems like a really nice girl I just don't really know how she could it's like okay she gives her apology but I feel like she's just wanting a little validation on her experience too where she's like okay but like this was kind of shitty I don't know I feel like she kind of had the right to stand up for herself with Whitney? Yeah. I just feel like... She did, by the way. They both did each other dirty, like both sides. Yeah. But I just feel

like in that moment, it's like everything got pushed on to Whitney and how, where you're at, like, like, what you're saying, if that's your villain, if that's what we spent so much of this reunion on, I'm like, that's pretty sad because I feel like overall the consensus is that she is a nice girl. And I think I would feel similarly coming into an environment and being like, if I stand up to Lindsay, then I'm going to, everyone's going to be at my throat. Yeah. Yeah. Or if I miss speak and say something kind of shitty, which people do all the time.

We put our foot in her mouth all the time. And I'm like, if I put my foot in my mouth and it's directed at her, then like I'm on the cutting board. That's what I think there's an, again, an art to an apology where I was like giving them the more leeway. I was like, Georgina was just like ready to jump in. And by all means, I get it, defend your friend. What did she say specifically?

Which was kind of harsh when she was like, I'd rather you say you were with him for reality TV than say that you were actually with it. But she was saying she doesn't support the relationship is what she was saying. I was thinking more on the, like double down. Who gives a fuck? Yeah. I agree.

I'm just like, but like I, you know, are Kenny and Whitney or like, I don't know, just, they clearly aren't like close friends. So why should they give a fuck

if they meet a bunch of strangers? Yeah. And these strangers who you're basically co-workers with don't support your relationship, but they also haven't really taken the time to get to know you. And then you say one thing

that like doesn't land and they fucking attack you for it. Yeah. Like, okay, great. I will say the real villain, by the way, of this season is Gavin. We're all arguing at each other because of something that he said or started between everybody. The wedding would never have erupted the way that it did unless it was just like, hey, I care about you guys' friends. So how's it going in your marriage?

And it's just like, why is this topic of conversation? The murky conversation. The mom conversation. Lindsay, like, he's literally there for everything. Yes, totally. And I will say about Gavin, I do think in the vein of nobody was really working this season, Gavin kind of was. No, no, no, Gavin got to be. I'm not saying he was doing a good...

I'm not saying he was doing a good job. His performance review, not great. But he was making an effort. You can't... Your effort, A. Yeah. But honestly, you can't cut it. He's the producer on the cast.

I was like, you can't stir shit up from the side, not actually actively being involved in any of the drama. You have to get in the mess. And you don't have a situation that any of us are focusing on. We know nothing about your dating life. We know nothing about your work life. We know nothing about you at all. But for some reason, you're in the middle of everyone else's personal shit.

bringing it up inopportune times. But I'm like, every show needs a villain. And to your point where I'm like, if Whitney or if Gavin is your villain, we're doing something wrong here. Because I'm like, even think of like Sky on the Valley Persian style. She's an amazing villain where it's like, because she's not actually intentionally a villain. She's just who she is, but the other people just don't fuck with her. But it's like even then in these group settings, it's like she shows the fuck up to work.

She says what she needs to say. And she doesn't really give a shit. And like, those are the people that I'm like, that makes a good villain. And Lindsay Hubbard was one for a few seasons of the show where she was like, I was isolated as the oldest person on the show. And it's like, yeah, because she stood up for herself. She didn't put up with shit. And then people would be like, oh, she's activated. Oh, she's this.

And she turned it into a fucking brand. And now she's Mother Hubbard. So I'm like, you can evolve and grow on these shows. And being the villain is probably the better place to start because then once you have that progression and that arc, we're like rooting for you and everything that you do. But I'm like to have these like weird pseudo villains that aren't really villains. and it's like, it just, it doesn't work. Yeah, because again, it plays into the mean girl narrative because, like, they're going after Whitney because they don't want to,

they don't want to go after each other. They don't, and they don't have the guts to go after Lindsay. That's what I think. So they pick the weakest fucking link? And that's not like a dig on Whitney. She's just very demure and very, like, just nice. And she's just not going to. If you pick the person that's not going to yell and scream back at you.

Like, low-key, I say this respectfully, but, like, I don't think she could hold her own in the sense that, like, That's a lot. She's not that person. She's not that person. Yeah. And I think that's a good quality to her as a human being. But like on a reality show, I'm like, yeah, to target her.

I'm like, that's kind of crazy. But also I think it was interesting that Lindsay brought up like, oh, these people all challenge me, like all of my friends. Like nobody, they all come at me. But I'm like, I don't know that they do in the same way that you guys are coming at Whitney right now. Like, sure, they might challenge your opinion or like call you out on something. Then why didn't we see it all fucking season? That's what I'm saying.

This is a reality TV show about your friendships. Why did we see that element about your relationship? So for the contradiction of that, though, where I was like, it is Danielle for me, where I was like I wasn't the most excited to see Danielle back. I'm so sorry, girl. Also didn't need her opinion on its commander. I like her. But it was also kind of like I feel like we needed her too because if she wasn't on the show,

what the fuck else would have happened? Yeah. But with Danielle, it was like, it was interesting when they brought up the whole thing about Lindsay and not having friends that stand up to her and all that stuff. She's like, all of my friends do. and in different ways. But I was like, well, every time Danielle speaks hard truth to you, you just stop talking to her.

So it's just like, again, where I'm like, Kenny made a point to where it's just like you don't really take constructive criticism. You take it as like a dig at you and how your life is going or people having strong opinions that you didn't ask for, but you're allowed to have opinions on everybody else's situation. Yeah. I mean, he was literally trying to answer the question. And then she started calling him a gaslighting

narcissics, mas. She just did the whole list of, like, internet name, what do you call a man that you want to, like, discredit? Well, I was like, I feel like that's, like, the biggest thing I always see at reunions is that it's like, the person who's constantly interrupting is the person

that's like, you won't let me finish, let me finish my sentence, and it's like, you cut off everybody else. Yeah. Like, and I don't fall, Lindsay, because I got, she truly is trying to, like, she is trying to make this show work. She is bust in her ass and, like, but everyone else sees the stuff.

up more. Yeah, I'm like, I need somebody that you guys actually don't get along with or I need like, you know what I mean? I need the like west side story of it all. They need a heavy hitter who has a power dynamic that can can be like head to head with Lindsay because she's so powerful. And I say that like in a badass way. But like people respect her. They're a little scared of her maybe on the cast to approach her and call her out. But they need somebody who is like equally likable and favored and respected, but also, like, going to be a badass and go head to head. Because I think, yeah, totally. Oh my God, that would be amazing. That's exactly who they need. But they need a female that can go against her or can rise up to her occasion because the whole thing where they've messed up

with me was making it Kenny. Totally. It's just like, well, if Kenny had a fighting chance of being likable on this show, I already don't like him because you enjoy arguing with women too much. You know what I mean? It's just a bad luck. That was an iconic line. All right. Up next, But we do have part two. So maybe they will redeem themselves, and we will all just be like, oh, well, maybe just give us a second half all at once. Up next, we have Killian from Altamamam,

and boy, do we have questions for that guy. He's up next. Well, before we get to Killian, don't forget that Wi-Fi Plus is available and ad-free for all of you listeners out there. In addition to ad-free content, you get some amazing Bowden's content, like our reality recap Deutis,

where we dive deep into these shows that you love, and we get into the nitty-gritty. Also in Justin and Mary this week Justin and I talked about if we've ever had sex with ghosts So tune in Absolutely Can you send me the link to that? Yeah thanks

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You know, I'm taking the heat if I can, you know, not going to lie. We certainly have a lot of questions for you. Yep. And sometimes maybe these shows you can feel misrepresented. I guess starting with the first question is you were like, hey, I'm a dad. Is that, were you being serious? I honestly couldn't tell us. No, I was just trolling.

Oh. So I was right. You had us all fooled. Okay. Are you trying to get cover from all the. all the heat that you're getting? Like, oh, don't pick on me. I'm a dad. No, not, no. If I had, I mean, that kid is like four years old. So that means I would have already had to have the kid, you know, before Ashley. Yeah, the timeline seemed to be off.

I just figured, you know, people believe whatever. So I just wanted to go a little bit. Okay. Well, let me ask you this. What would you like to address first? I mean, we have a bunch of questions for you. But are there things that you want to address about the things that we got to see or the criticisms you've been receiving? Where would you like to start. If you don't, we can start, but I figured I'd give you the floor. Not necessarily. I mean, the only thing that I kind of didn't like about the edit was like obviously how they made it seem like I was, or I felt like they made it seem like I was the only insecure one. And also that they didn't really show like me being there, being nice for Ashley or for Haley. Um,

because I spent a lot of damn time being there for Ashley. like there was one scene where when Ashley was leaving Blake's apartment, you know, this was probably like five days or so before the season was ending or the filming was ending. They made it seem like it was very calm that she just closed her suitcase, left, and that was it. Well, but really what happened was like she was running through the courtyard of the apartment, screaming, having anxiety attack. And I accidentally saw her while I was on the balcony.

and you know like I'm you know holding her trying to help her through it breathe through it everything it's just like obviously that that probably doesn't really align with the story that they need to tell which is fine but yeah I mean listen I I don't think anyone like watched you and didn't think that you had like no redeeming qualities as a partner obviously you two like had a very long relationship so clearly there's a lot of good there I think you know when we watch these shows as you know like it, you know, obviously it's, you know, we know it's edited, but it's hyper condensed. Yeah. But we're trying to obviously, like, we're very interested in the most like, I guess, like intense moments.

And so like, I mean, I say this in relationships all the time too. Like, you know, the good doesn't make up for the bad, especially when the bad is really bad. Of course. You know. So no doubt that you've had, you've been there for her. You've had redeeming moments. But I think it's just more, I think a lot of fans or the audience was kind of caught off guard by some of your worst moments, so to speak. Yeah.

Yeah. Of course. And in particular, I guess maybe we could just start with like, well, to me, there's like the two different things. Like obviously there was like the freak out, which on one end I think I is, you know, listen, this whole experience is crazy. I don't know how any of you do it. So I can imagine how it can be very triggering and very hard to deal with like your emotions

and it can be scary. So there was that and kind of how you handled that. But then there was kind of like, you know, I think it was you saying shut the fuck up to your partner, obviously there was the whole text story with your boys. What would you say to any of those things? Let's start with the whole text message with the boys. What do you have to say about that? Or do you have an explanation or an apology or an excuse or, yeah, what is your version of that event? No, I don't really have an excuse about it. I don't really think there's an excuse to have for it. I mean, obviously, I mean, they didn't really show it on the show, but I've apologized to Haley

multiple times. I don't think that an apology is really going to fix too much, right? No matter how I worded or say it, it happened. So I just have to take accountability for it. How would you say you've done that? What change, if any, did that situation bring into your life? I think just being more aware of the way things are said and trying to take them more properly, I guess. like I shouldn't have really just let it be such a joke because that's not really something to joke about right and especially with the text messages about the boobs and you know comparing boob sizes and stuff obviously no one wants to be body shamed right like I don't want to or anyone else so yeah I mean I just should have spoken up more at the end of the day you know for me

like they're my they were my friends so now it's like you know I said hey like uh that's wild right like for them they know what I meant by that and then further down in the text messages after I said that's wild it said you know yeah that's a little bit too far that's that's my bad right which doesn't fix it it's still said you're saying you did at least push back a little bit maybe not to the degree that I did it yeah I did it in my way right which should have been better though okay I could have definitely made that more clear they knew that that's why the text message after it came. As a woman, like, hearing that sometimes guys are in these group chats where women are spoken about in this way. Like, I do, I guess regardless of, like, the way you

kind of push back on it, what would you say about, like, how you feel having friends that speak about women that way? I mean, we're not friends anymore. Okay. So, um, is it because of that situation? I just, I think, I think there's like, obviously a, there's a difference between, like, there's a difference between a group chat with guys and kind of boys being boys, locker room, talk, whatever you want to call it. I think there's a little bit of a difference between, you know, I don't know, saying, like, I guess, like, that girl has a fat ass or something like that, right? Compared to what was said, like, specifically in those text messages. Yeah, I mean, listen, I think we're all familiar with locker room talk, and certainly it exists with the boys, so to speak. I guess for my point of view, it was more like in the context of which this was delivered, a show that's being recorded. I'm just like, it's, it seemed like, boy, if you got, if they're so comfortable talking about it in this situation, I wonder what your actual locker room talk looks like when there's the perceived privacy.

and I understand you guys probably never thought that this would be aired but I mean like obviously they didn't they didn't sure they didn't know anything was going to be shown either so in a way it like it wouldn't be getting worse or anything of that sort obviously like you know Haley wanted to film my phone she was probably thinking she was going to catch me text nationally you know and try and use that against Ashley and I while we were mad at each other or whatnot but yeah I mean there's just no experience use for at the end of the day. Are you not friends with them today because of that situation? Yeah. Okay. We're not, we're not speaking anymore. Well, I know you're not a dad after, thanks for that. I am. I'm recently, I've, I've three daughters under three. And so, uh, I, you know, now when I watch these shows, it's hard not to think about the men, uh, they potentially might date if they end up dating men. Yeah. I am curious though, but like, you know listen the all we can do is learn from our actions and mistakes but like i guess what would you say you know like the show's done i don't know what your dating situation is these days and if

maybe you if you have a partner or you know but i imagine that future fathers like future partners and future partners and their fathers um might watch this and and have and have some like red flags or the or women you might date might watch this and be concerned what have you learned about yourself and what would yeah what do you plan on saying to them to alleviate some of their fears about how you might move in a relationship um i mean i've just been doing self growth and self reflection since the show stopped you know i also broke both my legs that put me in a crazy situation um and made me just realize like how grateful i am for for like this life and yeah that's just not the way that i want to betray myself or the person i want to be um

and I know like how much greatness I have to be able to give and how much love I have to be able to give. What? It's just something that, you know, I've just trying to be cognitive and learn. What have you learned and what have you reflected on? Well, I've definitely learned that I opened my mouth too fast sometimes. Like, for example, with the shut up up thing. I mean, I'm not going to lie. Everyone yells or is at some point or says things like that, you know, Ash.

I mean, you know, Ashley said way worse to me than that. But like, yeah, I could have kind of, you know, taking a chill pill, take a breather, and then answered differently. Are you better at that now? I don't know. The only way to learn is just to keep going and then, you know, do better. No, that's, that is true. But I guess, like, let's say if I'm like a dad, you know, you're dating my daughter and I watch that.

And I guess my question is like, you know, what would you say to a father? to make him feel, because you're right, like, everyone can lose their cool, everyone has a temper, I being the big difference between, like, adults who don't do that, and adults who do is, like, they have done the work, they are able to regulate their emotions, they don't let their buttons being pushed, be the reason they cross a line and do something inappropriate. And I guess if, what would, what would you say to me if you were like dating my daughter where it's just like, because you're right, like, you can't control you not being upset in the future. Like you are going to be upset.

The next person you date is going to push your buttons. You are going to be in a situation where you like, you're really upset. So like how, what would you say to them to say, you know what? What work have you done to say even when I am pushed and when I get the most mad? And regardless of what they might even say or do to me, I can assure you I will never treat your daughter that way. I mean, I really, I don't know how to answer that question, to be honest with you. other than just over time working on the anger part.

All right. Well, I appreciate that honesty. And working on myself. I mean, I really don't know. Because, like, I also don't feel like anything I would say would probably make it any better. I mean, I don't know. I guess, yeah, I guess it would just have to be, do you think right now, are you think you're, are you dating right now?

No, I don't think it's fair to put anyone in that situation and like watch, you know, you or like watch me tell someone that I love them and get engaged. And I wouldn't want to be in that situation. So, um, so no. Do you feel like you have more work to doing yourself before you're... Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. I also don't believe that like there's ever a time that you stop working on yourself.

That's just like part of life, you know, um, every day. No, I agree with that. I just mean more like our, to be in a position to be the type of partner you think you should be to someone. I definitely still think there needs to be time for that. I definitely think there's still more to work on. It's not like how I flip switch at times whenever I get upset or defensive. I don't think that's fully gone, to be honest with you. And yeah, I think also maybe like being with someone different,

the reactions might also turn out differently, or we might handle things differently based on the person. that I'm with. Yeah, yeah, but again, like, you know. If that makes sense, you know. No, it does make sense, but we can't control sometimes other people, but we can control ourselves. And I would feel uncomfortable knowing that, like, my daughter's safety has more to do with her ability to never lose herself rather than knowing that she's with someone who, regardless, if she's having a bad moment or a bad day or, you know, whatever, that she never has to worry about someone saying, well, I only did that because you did this to me, you know, and that would...

Right, right. I hear you. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm the only thing, I mean, I've been, I mean, I guess you guys know, but Netflix gives me the therapy sessions after the show. Good for you. I've started good at those. I went to two of them.

Yeah, I don't, it's just a constant thing now I've got to work on. What thing did you learn about yourself that you appreciate and what thing did you learn about yourself that you want to, you know, change? Something I don't know if this really meant. Something I learned was that even if I have good intentions when I'm going to speak to people, sometimes it's just not my place to say anything. And it puts me in, sometimes puts me in worse places than what I was trying to do. Like, for example, I would try and go talk to Blake at the gym and tell him how Haley was

feeling and for him to text her back because she was, you know, freaking out that she's texted him 50 times and he hasn't replied. And I've wanted them to be in a good place and not worried about things. And instead, that comes back to me, you know, that, oh, you know, you're messaging everyone and you're, you know, causing drama and stuff. And I think staying in your lane is a big thing that I've learned. Um, you know, worry about yourself, just try and do the best you can and kind of let everyone else do their own thing. That's probably the safer route. I definitely, like, I mean, obviously, it's really weird to see yourself raise your voice on TV, you know?

So, like, maybe at the times, and maybe even in the past when I've done it, maybe I didn't even really think that I was getting that upset or, like, yelling like that, you know? And, like, seeing it actually happening in front of you, especially in your voice, is definitely strange. and I think it definitely sinks in a little bit more of like, yeah, that's definitely something I could work on. And even if I didn't mean it isn't like tearing you down or anything, it's still definitely coming off like that. From your point of view, why did you and Ashley not work out? There were a lot of things.

I mean, from the jump, you know, her dad always had an issue with everything. I mean, everything. And that was mainly, basically mainly because she was in Florida and she couldn't be around her family. You know, we tried to move to, I moved to Houston for her, for her dad's job to try and like put her in a better position because she wasn't making money with real estate down here. You know, so I got my license down there. There's just no appreciation of me, you know, picking up my whole life and a snap of a finger, getting a license down there, etc. and there was just always an issue with with anything um you know um you know he told me he sat me down he was like um you know uh i'm telling you i need uh you need to force ashley to stay in texas or

i won't approve of you and stuff it's like i'm not forcing her to stay in texas when that's not what she wants to do um like i'm sorry but like i'm at this time like i'm like i'm trying to make your daughter happy and she she wants to move back to miami like you know that's what we're going to do so do you think it was mostly her dad's fault you guys broke up no it wasn't just her dad's fault obviously there was parts where like with you know my let's say like when i would yell or say something like the shut the fuck up thing and ashley's pretty um you know not soft but like she doesn't like that yeah yeah like she she would get really upset and i think me yelling reminded her of her her dad yelling at her in the past and yeah that was part of it Ashley thought that was going out

too much drinking yeah I mean we never even had a like real closure over everything what what what do you mean because she she would she would she would tell me like things like like like like after she had moved out she would tell me things like um we're just not made for each other you know like I told you for a year that you uh that I wanted a coffee table and you just let it slide. I'm like, we're talking about coffee tables. She's like, you just don't like to design the house and make it a home the way I do. And I'm like, what does that have to do with closure? That was her closure, like saying little things like that and that I thought there needed to be a lot more closure than that. Like what? But just like give me like real, real valid reasons of like

why you're leaving, you know? Because she, the way she left too, she left by, you know, turning off her location, supposedly going to gym. She went to the, um, to like different leasing offices down here in Miami to go look for a rental. She came back. I could tell obviously things were weird or whatnot. I asked her, you know, what's going on? Are we going to talk? She didn't want to talk to the next night or something. Um, and then she was like, I'm just letting you know now. Um, I'm, I'm signing a lease right now as we're talking on my computer and I'm going to, and I'm going to pack up. But like, I imagine. Imagine, like, her getting upset about, like, say, your reaction to things or your temper was a theme in the relationship?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, that's what I'm saying. That definitely has a big part to play to it, for sure. Maybe she just kind of got fed up. The thing is, like, in which I understand. And, like, right? Like, that's something I need to work on. And that's not something someone should deal with.

But let's also not sit here and act. Like, I'm the only one that reacts to things. she she yells a lot you know i took names all the time and everything and i don't know i mean i guess i handle things differently with with that nor it doesn't bother me as much so well what was alarming for me as a woman watching was the part where um a phone situation came up and she said that you smashed her phone and that's why her parents needed to come down and i'm just and you said that context was necessary to add on to the story and i'm just kind of wondering in what situation would it ever be okay for you to smash somebody's phone let alone that like is this

where your relationship arguments are escalating to well first again actually is making it seem like she's never broken any of myself um second on that situation yeah what what happened was that she decided to go out with friends while i was in the wheelchair left me at that house um lied about where she was going and then ended up staying out until, I think, like, 10 a.m. I called her friend. This was probably at, like, 2 a.m. or so, because she was ignoring the calls and stuff. At 2 a.m. or he was like, oh, yeah, I'm going to watch, or I'm watching her, I'm sorry, I'm going to watch her and everything. And then around 2 a.m., I call him, and I'm like, hey, so she's sleeping over there? What's going on right now? Like, you guys can hang out, but what is happening with her not picking up

the phone and everything, just trying to make sure where she's at? oh let me go to find where she's at he didn't he didn't keep track of her and she was gone from the apartment no one knew where she was none of her friends knew where she was or anything so i'm like starting to you know trip out i'm like okay like what is going on is she's safe she drove and everything um or she drove there so i'm going up and down my condo trying to uh go ask the front desk at my wheelchair you know have you seen ashley is her car here like has valet taken the car or anything no no no we haven't seen Nashville hours later um you know I'm starting to really worry I call her mom I'm like hey Tracy you know I can't find Ashley anywhere and stuff and I'm like I've asked all the

friends she's with um and she's like well do you want me to come down and I'm like I guess I give it a few more hours or so and we'll see and sure enough I go back down to valet they're like oh yeah we just picked up her car she threw up in the car uh so we're going to clean the car for you and stuff and I'm like well that's weird she's still not upstairs so we must have like accidentally missed each other either going up and down the elevator and then she went and decided to hide in the closet behind her clothes in the master closet I guess thinking or knowing that I couldn't reach that area because I was in the wheelchair um and then while I'm on the phone still she was trying to hide from you yeah and while trying to find the or while still trying to you know call her mom say like

do you want me to call the police and stuff? I don't know what's going on. And she was in there the whole time listening to me doing that and never decided to come out and, you know, say, well, I'm at least home, which I'm assuming she, I'm assuming she probably was wanting to do that because she was like, well, he's going to yell at me or something. And then that's where that came to.

And she thought she was doing nothing wrong or whatever. And I grabbed her phone and I threw it. and yeah, the phone broke. So, yeah, which that day obviously was a lot. But, yeah, and that's not the first time. Things like that have happened, but. Well, listen, man, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your side of things.

But maybe hopefully the biggest takeaway is, I hope you're like, you know, I hope you watch this show back. And I think the tough part of being on these shows is like, you know, because there can be a lot of, you know, obviously nasty remarks and people saying things and criticizing, but it sounds like hopefully for you, this could maybe be a real turning point in your life, hopefully, or a learning opportunity because regardless of what your ex did or has done, it seems like there's some like, you know,

problematic themes in how you move in relationships and more importantly, like how you deal with your anger and frustration. And there's only, you know, the only guarantee I know in relationships is that, you know, two people who love each other will often hurt each other. They'll upset each other.

They'll say things. And that can't be the basis for feeling safe. Is, is to not have ever upset your partner. Yeah. And I want to say, like, this hasn't,

this is not something that's happened before in the past with any other relationship. But yeah, like, I still, I'm not proud that I went on the show, but I'm still happy that I went on the show because of everything that has came from it. Even if I am getting all the heat and stuff from what was said with the group chats,

I still appreciate that I went on the show because of everything that is teaching me in the long run. Yeah, I hope you're willing to receive the criticisms, at least the constructive ones. I know sometimes that's harder to find online. But yeah, yeah, as a father who has some young daughters out there, it's, you know, I worry. about their options. So I hope that you want to be a better option for women out there. Yeah, 100%. That really comes. It has nothing to do with the people you date or their actions. It really has to do with you. Yeah. No, I hear you.

Kelly, I appreciate taking the time, man. Best of luck. Keep doing the work, man. And hopefully, yeah, like I said, it's don't just do the therapy speak or say you're doing the work, you know, actually, actually do it. So hopefully you are. And best of luck to you in the future, man. Take care of yourself. Yeah, for sure. All right, bye-bye. All right, guys. See you. That was so hard for me. Yeah. I was like, I try not to, like, come on with my own personal bias. So that's why it's like I try to stay quiet in the sense of if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. And I just, again, I asked a, I think, pretty simple question in the sense of why would you, why would there ever be a situation of

escalation that needs to result in you smashing somebody's phone? tidbits in that story. But as I said to give me the whole runaround of everything. Why is she hiding from you? Of why something is wrong with her. Yeah. And it's like that she's the problem. But I'm like, you're two legs busted in a wheelchair.

And she still feels the need to hide. And she's still hiding from you in a closet. Yeah. That raises some questions. But I think when people continue to like justify actions, at the end of the day, it's not right for either person to smash a phone, to throw property, break property. But when you're asked a direct question like that and that person continues to deflect, it just shows that they're not ready to take accountability for how they contribute to it because they're continuing to justify based on whatever somebody else has done. Right.

And that to me, like, I really, I say this so sincerely. Like, I really do hope that he, you know, takes the feedback. I know there's criticism that is, like, above and beyond and people say crazy things in your DMs. So we're not talking about any of that. But, like, truly invest in therapy, not just the 10 sessions you get from Netflix. Like, it's when he was like, I've done one or two. Well, have you done one or have you done two? Yeah.

Maybe let's not rely on the aftercare that Netflix gives you. It kind of goes back to what Sierra was saying within the city where it's like the art of apology or like just like accountability. Like there's a time in place. Like you can acknowledge whatever other perspective you want to. But like in the moment we're trying to acknowledge something specific. But again, accountability is about you and yourself. So therefore you don't need to point out what other people have done because we've seen it.

we get it. And even then it should be irrelevant into your story of how you've taken accountability. It's I see what I've done. I've seen how my actions affect other people and I want to be responsible for that. I don't need to give 20 lists of why somebody else that is equally needs to be held accountable. It is interesting here not in a way of defending him that he cut off the group. It is good that you got up the I'm glad that he cut off the group. I don't know if I entirely believe. I don't either. I was going to say and also the bars in hell if that's like the pat on the back we're giving. But I mean, if he did good, I mean, I guess, listen, I want to believe that he's willing and open to being a better version of himself.

But there were definitely some things in the interview that, you know, make me doubt that it was, you know, because it was like talking about the therapy speak, what we said about in the city. It's the, I'm doing. I think I was wrong. But it's like, so what are you doing? A lot of things. And no, like, it's people talk about doing the work as if it's like, they just have to say they're doing the work. Or self-reflecting. the work. But we don't need to answer what we're reflecting on. Yeah, we're reflecting. I'm reflecting. And I'm

looking back at everything from the last year and just really thinking about it a lot. And then what are you reflecting about how it wasn't just me? Yeah. And then everybody's yelled. I didn't understand the closure part. No. It's like, it was reflective of Amanda Batula being like, oh wait, so nobody else has ever been in this type of situation. Nobody's saying that. No one said that no one's ever yelled or lost their temper or has acted poorly in a in a moment of conflict. She finally, it sounds like, And again, I know very little about this relationship. But from the context clues that we've learned from these conversations, it sounds like she finally got the guts to leave.

Yeah. Turning your location off to go to a leasing office. And just like. Yeah. And he still doesn't get it. No. And he was expecting the whole like closure conversation. I think closure happens when you smash my phone, my guy.

I think closure is something that people earn. And I don't think judging by what I've, what that interview just showed me or the entire show showed me he earned it yeah i need to just hear from like both haley and ashley because what i what stood out to me was the fact that like haley was saying but even in the reunion she was like you don't let me talk i can't talk and then literally for the 20 minutes after that was crazy still talking that was crazy and it was like i was like i was like i was like that i was like that has to be editing but i don't think it was i mean yeah right you would think so but it's almost like who's controlling the narrative here you know no that's where that's literally what it was is like she was about to tell

this story about this. What happened? It sounds like there was some potential, some physical violence. And then she was trying to tell her version of the story and he just was like, no, I'll call it. Oh my God. And then he just moved

on. Speaking of hearing from Haley and Ashley, you will and we will next Wednesday. They will be here. Yeah. Anyway, we woke up today and we wanted to have Jessica on because that was a wild and wacky ending.

Wild and wacky. Wild and wacky. Humiliation rituals. Crazy. I felt so empowered by her. Yeah. And so we were like, let's, you know, because I honestly did not go into this reunion thinking I would care.

No. About that couple that left six episodes ago. Right. And then I go happily engaged. And then they showed up to the reunion, not together. And then she said a bunch of things. Wild things. Don't piss on me and tell me it's not raining.

I want that. I want that. I can't. explain how I watched that scene. She's like, I'm not going to explain myself, but the explanation is disgusting. Yeah. Humiliation rituals.

And I believe her. And then we were like, oh, cool. And we were like, hey, like, is Jessica available today? Can we get her on? They were like, yeah, for sure. But she requested that we bring him on. Which we don't have the context. We don't have the context, but we will be having Jess and Etris on momentarily.

Oh, my God. Jebben. He invited the cast to go play golf in Puerto Rico. In his Tom Brown. He was decked out. He was blinged out. For sure. And then we learned early in the season that he's, I don't know, lives at home.

It's certainly to make more sense. I think his parents, maybe he is. I don't know. Maybe he's a crypto kid. I don't know. Maybe he's a crypto kid. He's a hedge fund guy, right? Things are making more sense.

that I think his somewhere somewhere in his family maybe he is coming he comes from money or he stumbled upon it or he stumbled upon in crypto in crypto but that

what a unique man I think Jebben is going to kill on perfect match one day no I don't want him on perfect match Jebben was not the worst somehow Jebben not the worst man on this season

I would maybe feel safer with him than most of them again the bar is in hell the bar is in hell the bar is like below Dante's Inferno yeah the Blake of it all. Oh my God. I'm still unsettled. When he was like when he was when he what he was bringing up

sports he's like this is JV this is JV. This is JV. We're going to bring in varsity with these receipts of what is so hard to believe that like I understand you have this sign affidavit but what is so hard to believe that in a moment of you know I mean I don't know what it's like obviously to be on on Haley's side of things but I've heard enough of stories and know enough of women in my life where there's again, talk about real trauma bonding. That's real trauma bonding. When you bond with the person who brings trauma into your life and these relationships complicated, you care about them.

They're these feelings of love and you don't even, you know. And so it's not that hard to believe that in a moment of whatever, she was willing to sign something that she later on regretted signing. Only, you know, like that's not hard to believe. People do that all the time. And so the way he was just trying to completely diminish and invalidate what she was trying to say by like hold like he is crazy even though like I'm sorry but it's like the just manipulation talkative of being like I love you da da da da and she was like no you don't get to talk to me like that we're not together anymore and I was like this poor girl has been traumatized by this man because you know that he said that shit to try to get out of trouble and I'm sorry if I'm wrong or AI or whatever but I'm pretty positive I've seen a mugshot so therefore I'm like don't act like that you have never been in trouble based off of the accusation. that she's claiming.

So I think he was very quick to deflect and say that that never happened. It would be one thing if he was like, listen, there was a situation in my past or whatever. I'm like, it's literally circulating right now, my guy. Also, the only thing he didn't argue was the claim that he was blackout drunk. Right. And yet prior to the blackout drunk accusation of which he did not rebuttal, he tried to tell his version of accounts of that night. And I don't know about you. But anyone I know who is blackout drunk doesn't remember.

remember fucking shit from that night. Like, it's called blackout drunk for a reason. You're blacked out. So you don't fucking remember. So the best version of his story is he did it all, but doesn't remember. But the fact that he tried to make up a version in what seemed like almost great detail, knowing that he's lying because he was blackout drunk. And he's not even arguing that.

She was like, we didn't go there with anyone. And then I went to the bathroom and you came back and you were taking shots with girls. They're wilds. On their honeymoon trip or whatever. Yeah. But I'm just like in a vacation that they're taking to celebrate each other and their relationship, this is how you treat her. He sounds like a guy who gets blackout drunk. Yeah.

And when he is, is a very bad drunk and potentially violent and very toxic. And outside of his drinking, which he hasn't dealt with, he probably feels guilt and whatever and probably dives into therapy and tries to therapies himself and in an attempt to feel better about his actions, but doesn't deal with the actual problem, which is like he gets blackout fucking drunk. And you have anger issues. And he has anger issues. Both of them, him and Julian. And a willingness to like cross lines that should never be crossed with women.

Him also being so analytical too in the show and talking about his emotions. And the way he, it's like he's trying to figure out how to feel like a person. And then I, and then if you get blackout drunk like that, it's like then all of these emotions you don't actually know how to process are just going to come out. You know, not that's not an excuse, by the way. It's also interesting to me that the two girls, Haley and Ashley, ended up kind of with different versions of their partners because they both suffer from the same kind of issues in the sense of like anger management drinking issues. Remember when Blake like made it an impersonal mission to like talk down to. Ashley about how she needs to like Expect more for herself in relationships and talking down to Killian.

And lo and behold, he's doing the exact same thing in his relationship. It was like the way he was telling on himself. Cognitive dissonance. It's a real fucking. But he asked chat GPT. What was I forget? What was that all about? I've had many conversations with chat GPT about it.

Or he said, I don't know. And he had just said, I've had many long discussions with chat GPT about this. What was it about? Something with Haley, I think. That's not how you use AI guys. No. That is not your friend. That is certainly not a tool.

It's not your therapist. Would you guys use a therapy chatbot? If it was specifically made? No. But I'm fully going to say I mean, it all depends on. Like what if it was like FDA approved? I don't know. I don't know what that means anymore.

How can you trust something to give advice on the human experience? I was thinking about that because I need to care about it. I'm just curious. It's just going to regurgitate your own feelings surrounding the situation. and either encourage you into delusion or break you down because whatever like subconsciously you want.

But what if it's FDA proven they don't? It's like... What is FDA? I don't trust them. I'm just thinking out loud guys. I'm just thinking out loud of you. Is there a world in which that's what happens? And then it can actually help people

because if people are trusting their phones but they're not going to therapy. I don't think big therapy would let that happen. Big therapy. Listen, I'm pro therapy. It's been a huge in my life and my marriage and it's awesome. but now there's more and more therapists out there more you know it's become like we're talking about

therapy speak you know there's always the pendulum always kind of swiss swings too far and i saw this article in the wall street journal about how studies have shown that like that there's a negative you know you could be over-therapized and things like that and how like you know with when it comes to family dynamics about you know therapists are sometimes recommending you know people distancing themselves from families in a ways that maybe isn't having a positive effect. Anyway, as someone who often gives relationship advice on this show and as someone who's often highly criticized for just being a normie,

sharing my opinion about, you know, relationships, where it's just like, oh, you're not an expert or a therapist. And it's just like, I honestly am really uncomfortable when it comes to, like, people who say, oh, Nick thinks he's a relationship expert or people even calling me that. Because, like, I'm, the only thing I'm really, really good at, when it comes to relationships and what I think I have a PhD in

is like how to get myself emotionally unstuck because in my life whether it was before reality TV and like I have had multiple situations where I would just like stuck on someone or something and I couldn't get over myself and I had all these friends and reasons in my head where I was right

the other person was wrong or why I like you know and I spent years just in my head in therapy trying to like just get over things, right? And when people call them to ask Nick, that's the thing that honestly, well, that's to me what I think therapy is about, right? Like, it's being stuck on something.

Getting unstuck. And having someone just, yeah, just reverse engineer it, try to see a different, so you can move forward, you know? Like the reason they call them scars, right? Because like they don't, you know, you still see them, they still exist, they're healed, you know, but they're still there. They're with you.

They don't go away. But how do you go from like, continue to scratch that thing so it bleeds forever versus it just heals, right? And so, like, that's the thing when it comes to therapy that I think what, if you're going to therapy, that what you should be focused on is, like, trying to get unstuck. It's not being validated.

It's not, it's not ruminating over the same topic for 30 sessions in a row. Anyways, to answer your question about, like, AI, I just don't think, like, a computer is going to have the lived experience to try to, like, get you unstuck. I think it will. It'll only make you more stuff. It'll, yeah, I think it does the opposite. It will validate you.

It will just kind of give you all the scientific reasons and diagnosis as a why your feelings are. It's not about your feelings being valid. And I think the downside of therapy today is there's too many people out there thinking therapy is this all about validating your feelings and not working through why, right or wrong, why it's just time to move forward. See, I would argue that the therapy talk that we hear so much, whether it's like on reality TV or in real life when you're just like, oh my God. okay we get it you've been to therapy you're using therapy talk i would argue that's coming more from the internet like i would say it's so much less likely that these people are actually in therapy working with professionals to work through their issues and more so they're watching like an expert or a guru who's like blasting these things that's where i think a lot of the therapy talk comes from and obviously

there's therapists that aren't good at their job or like or there's therapy sessions where people become stuck but i'm like i kind of think that the therapy talk that we're hearing isn't from actual therapy It's from like buzzwords online. I think it's just the whole culture. The culture of it. I don't think it's the therapist doing that. No, totally. But I also think it's like a manipulation tactic where it's like, okay, instead of like us

being able to communicate with each other and correctly identify a feeling or how that made us feel, instead now we're like in this weird like trying to be politically correct, trying to like not say the wrong thing or be accusatory. So it's like, I've poured into you and you're not pouring back into me. and therefore it's a it's it's it's gaslighting and all of these things where it's just like instead of being like hey when you said x y z and it hurt my feelings and it made me feel like this which is with the tools that they actually teach you in therapy yeah they don't say hey go to your boyfriend and call him a narcissist they say hey instead of going you did this and it made me feel this way

be like hey when this happened this you know what i mean they give you the tools as to how to communicate not what words to say to invalidate somebody else's argument or somebody else's opinion of that same situation. And that's why I said when I'm like watching this therapy talk on reunions and Netflix dating shows and whatnot where I'm just like, it's just kind of bizarre to me because you're not having an actual conversation. No, you're having a conversation about communication.

Who was the couple on the show? I think it was Killian and Ashley. But it was. Haley? They were like, that is a manipulation tactic was the response. It was Haley. What was the thing they said was a manipulation? Was it when she was.

Haley and Blake? who's crying. Yeah, that it was like when she has tears. No, not that. By the way, it all started from Ashley taking the word and saying that I think Haley is manipulating the situation by like texting you stuff.

No, no, but there was a specific thing someone said. When they walked away. And the response was that is a mean, that's a manipulation phrase. And it was basically someone disagreeing. It's like you were allowed, like it's gone, like you were allowed to disagree with people. Well, it's also they had an.

entire, like the four of them had an entire argument about the word manipulation. And I just, like, I have always believed and I was always raised that if you start arguing about semantics, then you need to just like, at that point, it doesn't matter. It's so true. Because it's like, once you get to that point,

it's just, what do you, what do you, either recalibrate or stop arguing. Your point, Susie, like the internet has, like, again, there'll be like, four reasons you know you're being gaslit. You know, it's just like, and I swipe every time. I'm like, tell me why. validate my experience

yesterday last week but it's just like they invalidate your experience so it's just like so that turned into anyone being like well I don't agree well I don't I don't remember it that way

immediately turns into well you're invalidating my experience like whoa it's like no sometimes we just process things differently it's also it's the whole kind of thing of like what people everybody has their side and the truth is always somewhere in the middle

it's like the reality of these relationships is like I don't know what goes on every day. People say shitty things to each other all the time and don't mean it and fuck up and you either forgive them or you don't. And it's just like it's not everyone is everyone is dealing with their own shit

and it's not always about you. All right. Up next Jessica Grace and Idris are they together? Are they not? We'll find out. Is this the most wild recoupling? Wild recoupling in reality TV history. We'll find out. They're up next. As pet parents, you're

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Jessica Grace and Adrease. Welcome to the show. Hi. I woke up this morning not expecting that we would be interviewing the two of you together. You know, you guys really brought the ringing home. If you liked drama and messiness, you guys brought that. But yet here you are together. I assume you guys are together, correct, as a couple?

Yes. Yeah. Okay. I mean, we're working towards that. I think it's acknowledgement that, like, that's what we want. Okay. So we're not together. Oh, and I mean, we're together.

It's like three weeks. Yeah. Like three or four weeks. It's been, yeah, it's been a short amount of time. It's been the week after the reunion filmed. And we got after Charlotte. Can I ask what prompted the reconciliation? I hadn't seen Jessica in like, what, 10 or 10 months or so.

And honestly, like, my intentions going into it was I was like going to therapy. I was like, I don't want to do anything like harmful or say anything harmful. and I did like the complete opposite but but still like we had never spoken so I didn't realize at the time like how much pain she was in and so um that the person that I saw across from me is you know the way what I saw was someone who's in pain and and just a lot of fear and then I know I yeah and angry and I noticed like I was in a lot of pain and fear um or I mean I ignored it for a long time but you know she definitely brought it back in me um and I'm and I know I'm And so that day, you know, I was, I was extremely sad. I mean, I was, like, crying in my sleeve. It was pretty, it was pretty rough. And so, you know, to be honest, like, my intentions is, like, I reached out to Jessica probably, like, a few days after, you know, I kind of like, my family's from L.A.,

and so I just kind of hung out with them and talked to some friends. And, again, I was, like, devastated. But essentially, like, you know, I reached out to her when I got back to her. to Charlotte and I wanted to talk and like my intentions for talking were were one you know some of the you know as you guys know some of the things that were said there were pretty big statements and I was curious about like what she was implying about a lot of that and then secondly um if she really believed that there was any value for us to take this you know public or like you know whatever our dispute was like this back and forth you know we started to get talking I eventually like I

I started backwards. I looked at like the end of the relationship, like how I pushed her away, like how I literally blocked her out because, you know, every time we tried to break up, like we would always reconcile. We could never be friends. It would either be friends or I had to like completely shut her out. And that's kind of what I was trying to get at with the things I was saying at the end. It just came out completely wrong. Then I kind of just kept on going back and back and like, you know, again, like my intentions were not to change her mind, not for her to like me, not for her to even like, you know, like a lot of friends and family don't trust me right now. And that, you know, they have every right to not trust me because it, like, from the outside, it essentially

looks like it's a cover up, right? I'm trying to get Jessica to cover up on my behalf. But, but honestly, like, you know, I was, I, I give her every free right to do or say whatever she wants. And, and what I was like, you know, pretty much saying in that time is, like, I'm not going to hurt you, like, moving forward. Like, if I could just not hurt her, like, you know, fess up to the men's like I was inconsiderate like I was very selfish like towards the end of the relationship there was like a lot of you know shit I did like you know I have a you know tendency to stone wall and you know now I've learned in therapy like just communicate that you need time to like you know space to like you know be quiet and just like settle down and as you can see like I like blow up

and so I need to settle down but yeah I mean then like you know we just started from that basis of not hurting each other and we just kept talking and talking there was a lot of crying like Like, you know, it was mostly. Yeah, okay. I'm just kidding. It was a... Y'all, he's a Pisces. He's a total waterhead, so he's definitely going to cry.

But just to piggyback off of that, I mean, what you saw were two people who were very much unreconsiled, very much hurting, and just angry. And not to say that people have fights like that all the time, but like we just happen to have ours filmed on national TV. And that sucks. Because one of this most shocking things is... Idris has never spoken to me like that because he has a tendency to Stonewall.

And so when he said that, I was like, oh, are you talking about the we fucked in the busting and nut stuff? There was no nut stuff. I'm allergic to nuts. I'm kidding. I'm glad you guys have a sense of humor. When you were speaking about Idris, it was both vague, but also

like it was like, you were saying a lot of like potentially like, oh shit, what does she mean? Without like saying it. You even had Vanessa kind of being like, whoa, what is it? you know, some of those reaction shots. But I guess what were you speaking to or, yeah, I guess can you explain what you were trying to say

and what, if anything, was true behind that? Can you just give some context to the audience? Yeah, for sure. I think they were just left very confused about what you were trying to say. And then obviously with you guys being back together, I'm sure you hope that people, not that our opinion matters, but like that at least your people welcome you guys as a relationship. and if you guys want to do the work and see this through,

that you, I imagine you hope you have people's support. That's understandably challenging because, I mean, to speak to the vagueness, that was kind of purposeful. Like, when I think about the fact that for the past 10 months, we've gone absolutely no contact except for when I moved myself into my own condo. And in those 10 months, you kind of develop a narrative about what happened that you yourself can live with. And I'm developing this narrative absent of him.

So, of course, it's going to be favorable to me. And I recognize that some of the hurt, like, it felt good to kind of exacerbate it because it kind of absolved me from having to deal with my issues, right? So having been in therapy myself, you know, I was just, there was also like a cognitive dissonance, right? Like, in my mind, I could not paint it. as a total monster because I do realize, like, one, no one's perfect, but also, like, I know him to be an amazing man, which is why we went on the ultimatum to begin with. And I used to always say, like, I felt like I was dating my hero, you know, like just he's a man of principle. He,

like, anybody that can pull themselves out of, you know, the trenches with the alcoholism and the drug use, like, and then be successful at this scale. is just extremely impressive to me. And he's got a really cute butt. No, so going into the reunion, like, you know it's a total pressure cooker of emotion. You know, you guys know the process, how reality TV is filmed, and you watch the footage back before to inform your statements. And at that point in time, because we hadn't spoken in 10 months,

and I had really convinced myself that Idris hated my guts, that's the bedtime story I needed to tell myself to be able to sleep. at night, like, I was okay with being a little reckless with my words, you know, at his expense. I was okay with being just vague enough to make sure that, like, you know, people knew, like, that people would side with me. So you were kind of admittedly trying to vilify him in a way to kind of win the breakup online, so to speak. That causes me a lot of shame because I consider myself a really respectful and respectable

person and to to use that very pointed language in a way that would peak people's curiosity in my favor and turn them against him, like, is not something that you do as a partner, as a friend or just like a normal human being doesn't do that. And so like to the extent that I did that, right, I hope it's reflective of the pain that I was feeling and that was unresolved because, you know, I never wanted to break up with him. I never, I wanted, you know, all the things. So it was not a shining moment, even though the dress ate down. You looked absolutely gorgeous and stunning.

Your eye shadow was so good. Thank you. Beautiful. Going back to like, obviously there was the engagement that we got to see. And before we got into kind of the vagueness, you guys were trying to address like what happened post engagement. And could you guys just re-explain that to us with a little bit more context in terms of what happened post-engagement that it seemed to abruptly end the relationship? We broke up on May 16th. It was a Friday.

And up until that, like, we were going to couples counseling every Tuesday. We got some really good tools to learn how to communicate because one of the biggest things that we were dealing with is, like, I would break his boundary. I wouldn't understand why or how because I'm just like being myself and also appreciating it because Idris does not break my boundary in the same way. Can you give an example of like what that one of those boundaries look like? The energy that you give to the opposite sex in spaces where it's not necessary. So yeah, timeline wise, like we were we were trying to do the work. And then it just got to a point where, you know, it just wasn't. working. And then, you know, here I am yet again. He broke up with me formally. And then here I am

yet again, like, pushing the envelope and not taking no for an answer and just like, I don't want to say begging, but like, you know, just wanting to find if find out if we can reconcile. And so we got into like this really unhealthy loop where unbeknownst to me, he's like pushing me away because he's recognizing all of the toxicity. And he's recognizing. And he's recognizing. recognizing all the healing that can't be done between us. And I'm just thinking, like, I can love him hard enough to where I can heal the resentment from the past two years. You can't, as it turns out. And so I think that this time apart has given us an opportunity to work on the things that we needed to. Me, personally, I'm going to speak for myself. Like, I have a really hard time with self-reflection

because I'm really obsessed with this notion that I'm a good person and good people don't do bad things. But Idris has taught me that, like, you can do bad things and you can make mistakes and still be a good person. Sure. Yeah. I'm curious because, like, you know, you guys are a very relatable tale in the sense that, like, so many of us have been in relationships and broke up many times. Right. And try to get back together. In my experience, you know, I wasn't able to make those types of relationships work. You guys are obviously attempting to do that. I imagine a big part of that is the ability to let shit go and not continue to relitigate, you know, because clearly you guys have hurt each other so many times. And if you're trying to keep score, I imagine it's pretty hard to keep score on how many times each of you guys have hurt each other.

How are you guys, now that you are attempting this kind of another attempt at the relationship, how are you guys going to be able to really let shit go? You know, in the future, you guys will fight again. Something's going to happen. A boundary will be crossed. There will be a disconnect. How are you guys planning on addressing that without bringing up so much of the past? Well, first of all, I just want to thank her for like what she said so far.

I mean, I had a large part of some of the things that were said in the reunion too. I mean, I didn't own up to how inconsiderated. I was about hitting on Alex. And even though like, you know, I was single, it was still, you know, shitty move for me. And then, and so, like, you know, I didn't acknowledge that at all. And that's just, that's just really bad of me to not, to not do that. And then going back to, like, sort of the breakup. And then, like, you know, we did break up officially, which I did good at the time.

But then, you know, we got into this. Into the loop, yeah. Yeah, we can, how about we just date? And then, like, but all the baggage was still there. There was still these, like, score cards. You know, I was still holding this stuff, you know, against her. Essentially, like, this time around, again, my major defect is, like, I get defensive. And, like, when I get defensive, I'll start attacking character,

and rather than just, like, staying to the whatever the thing is, you know, whatever the moment is. And so recently, like, most of our conversations are just, what is the thing that makes me feel, like, unsafe and scared? And, like, some of the times, like, you know, as a man, I think it, I always wanted to see, like seemed like I handled things like well. And like now I'm like, you know what? At this point like like I got nothing to lose. And so like when I came to her like at the beginning, I was like, yeah, every time you talk to like some dude that we don't know that obviously looks like he's hidden on you.

Like that shit scares me. Like because I, you know, one I love you and like I don't want anything bad happening to this. And like, but I would think that if I say it scares me like, oh, I'm insecure and everyone's going to say this stuff. But like, but like that's, I guess now it's like that's the vulnerability. you know, it's like, I'm scared that shit like freaks me out and like, you know, and she knows now. Like, I think. Well, I know because I've seen it on the other side where I had an insecurity that I wasn't even recognizing, which is, you know, seeing you, having women approach you. And I'm just like, oh, that doesn't feel good.

Oh, this is what you're talking about. This is why you get defensive. And so going back to like, how do we keep, you know, like a tabla rasa, like you just, I mean, one, we have. have a prayer life. And so like God is really involved in, I know, it's hard to believe with our potty mouth. Like, you know, I'm pretty much. I'm convinced God's prayers, you know. Yeah. But it's just, I think, you know, we're swiping tables and stuff. But I think it's one of those things, too, where I feel, especially in conflict, like he shows up as this completely different person that isn't immediately defensive. It feels like we're on the same team. And yeah, there's just a lot of

room for that vulnerability because, you know, you kind of set that precedent. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I feel like I always used to do this, but like nowadays, I mean, my main thing is, like, I'm just trying to understand because I think for the longest time, I was just trying to, like, be understood and, like, you got to know my side of this. And at some point, it's like, I just kind of gave up on all of it. Yeah. And I would get defensive when he would call me on my shit because I thought my shit didn't

sync and because I'm working so hard to be a good person. And so, yeah, I can understand how that resentment grows. And so we've kind of had to let that go truly while still hold space for like the residuals of the pain, especially now that the reunion is out. And like that is also extremely painful. You know, watching it early on, you know, as many of us watch reality TV, you're paying attention and you have something going on and you're kind of like watching in the background. I was convinced that Jessica Grace had cheated on you and that you were trying to get over her cheating on you and like you had this like

and only to find out that that actually didn't happen but you had like all this anger about like again like I you know it's such a interesting conversation about how we interact with the opposite sex and how we kind of receive that but it was it was obviously affecting you so much that like it seemed like you you had this passion for Jessica Grace, but also this, like, hatred. You know, and they often say, like,

the opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference. You're certainly not indifferent about her, but, like, it seemed like you couldn't just, I don't know, like, you couldn't quit her, but you, you had, it seemed like you had an unhealthy amount of anger towards her. Have you been able to work through that and process it? And how, how are you able to do that? I mean, I don't know if it was anger. It was, it was more so, because, like, the core of anger is, like, fear. And so a lot of like why do I why am I afraid around Jessica Jessica is because like our trust or at least my trust with her started to erode and so I started to feel like that like that safety that was kind of eroding in the relationship there would be times where like would like would like fall asleep on my on my chest and like I'd be

breathing and I'd be like fine you know we'd be like you know synced at some point towards the end the relationship like I just like I was like I was like crawling out of my skin and so like I mean I'm more of an emotional dude when I describe things, but essentially like, yeah, there was a lot of fear. I had a lot of fear. I mean, does that show up in anger? Yeah, I could have let her go. I started acting in a ways like instead of just saying, hey, like we're done, you know, I would just be upset about things like quickly and I just dragged it out. So that's on me for sure. And so now, what do I do? That's changed. It's, you know, I just speak to whatever the emotion is. Because again like I was always in my head trying to figure it out and now it's like if something's going on

I just I just like even before we had this conversation like I'm like I'm pretty scared dude like straight up and we haven't slept like we woke up at 3 a.m. to watch it on the east coast and we're just like holy crap so we haven't slept yeah can I ask um how long after you guys breaking up was it until you hit up Alex this will break up because we broke up again later yeah I guess so like Yeah, I'm just curious, like, how much time there was in between, like, you guys deciding you weren't together and then deciding to try to pursue that. What do you think? May 16th to July, it was a Tuesday. I want to say July 20th.

Sorry, I, like, rain man with dates. No, okay. So it'd have been a few months. So, yeah, a couple months. Okay. So there, I guess I was just curious, like, was there genuine interest in Alex for you or was it more so, like, I guess there's a two-part thing where it's like this could be hurtful to Jessica Grace or... Yeah, it was your motivation.

Yeah, motivation. Yeah, motivation. To get a reaction from Jessica Grace. I think one of the things that was sort of left out in the show was my interactions with Alex. And so one of the things I kind of wanted to speak to is that with Alex, like, so I had gone on dates with Haley and Alex in the end. And essentially, by the time I got to the cocktail party, I knew I was going to pick Alex. And so, you know, before we went into choice, no idea that thing was going to happen with Jebben. So Alex was gone.

And, like, part of me was like, okay, like what happens now? And so, you know, I'm trying to speak to this very carefully. But we went through the entire process. Everyone kind of spoke about who they went on dates with. I actually spoke about who I went on dates with too. Alex was gone. I spoke about Haley. and then it was kind of like everyone had picked and chose like their person.

Towards the end of the whole thing, Nick and Vanessa was like, this has never happened in the history of the ultimatum. And what happened was that a couple didn't get picked. So Jessica and I did not get picked. And so while that felt like very rejecting in the moment I was like, okay, they're just going to ask us to leave. But like, and again, I take full of responsibility. for this is that like one of the few last words that came out of like Vanessa's mouth was like,

she asked like Jessica, like this was after eight hours of filming and I'm tired and like, you know, it's been a long day. Like I feel like, you know, I felt rejected, whatever, you know, like whatever. It's a small pool of people, you know, whatever. It's like it doesn't mean that everybody in the world hates us. But essentially what happened was Vanessa was like, hey, Jessica, like, what are you planning on doing? Like, are you planning on leaving without Idris?

and like to me in the back of my mind I was been a long day I was like is she prompting the ultimatum and so then she looked at me and she's like what are you gonna do Idris and like in the back of my mind like I thought the two decisions I thought I had was either to get engaged with Jessica in there

and like make sure she has her moment or to essentially reject Jessica because I thought those were my own I didn't know I could have just been like you know what like we're gonna just leave. We're just going to walk out and leave. And so that's why in the reunion, you kind of hear me say, oh, I felt forced. But that again, that's, that's on me. Like I, I, I, I want to represent like that. I totally misinterpreted that last moment. I got engaged. Do I regret the engagement?

No way. But, like, we still needed to work through things. We went to, like, you know, therapy and, like, we were just trying to make that thing work out in the end. I don't know if I answered your original question about Alex. Like, oh, did I, did I, oh, yeah, did I like? Was there like a genuine interest or was it more so like, oh, this might be something to get back on, yeah, lashing out. Part of me was, I mean, it's not a good look for me for sure, but part of me got close to Alex, like during the, during the ultimatum. And so there was something I thought would potentially be there. And I feel like, I felt like I respectfully reached out to her in regards to that.

she definitely like denied it at that point and like I just accepted the denial and I felt like it wasn't out of disrespect I wasn't trying to get back at Jessica at all and like even though like I think Alex stated that she was friends with Jessica like I didn't know to what degree but again like that's misjudgment on my part there's there's there's that I should have never done that I mean I should you know it was a bad move on part my part and like I regret doing that all together so well I you know listen, I appreciate you guys coming. It can't be easy to come on here and answer some of these very tough questions and address some of the behavior that we saw. But I commend you guys for the accountability you're trying to take. I'm curious, specifically you, Adrease, but obviously

opened to you, Jessica Gray's. Some of the other men on the season were even harder to watch. So props to you, Adrease there, that you weren't the most toxic man on the show. Like, what do you think about specifically like the actions of killian and blake on this season and we had a chance to talk to killian earlier this episode he talked about accountability and reflection is more of a an idea uh but really didn't get into the specifics but so i commend you guys for seemingly trying to do the work but what is your takeaway on some of the these men on the show and and um yeah what do you think about how they've chosen to move so We have had conversations as a unit, like more recently with both Killian and Blake.

And I just, you know, Idris' advice as a man is always like super solid and I enjoy hearing you counsel them. And so it's just, it's very apparent to me that there is still a lot of pain and fear there. Like they are afraid to be vulnerable enough to like drop their arms like and take that accountability first because they don't know that the people that they're making amends with. They don't know if they're going to also reciprocate that. Yeah. Do you want to speak to? No, I think that was spot on. Like that's what we've been trying to like because we know, we're friends with everyone on both sides and it's hard to take sides. But like any, my advice for anybody when I speak to them, I'm always like telling them to take responsibility for their own stuff.

I try to make sure they don't focus on other people because it's so easy to blame other people. But it's like really difficult to kind of take that ownership. And so like that's what when I talk to Killen, he knows, I'm going to tell, I'm going to point the finger back at him. Same with Blake. You know, have they been calling me that much anymore? Probably not because they don't want to hear that. But still like, you know, I try to make the attempt. One of the reasons why we're here together is because when Idris asked for that call, he did lead with accountability.

you know, he was going to kind of speak to the things that he, where he knew that the impact on me was painful. And when he did that, like, you see how on guard I am and how, like, in your face I am at the reunion. But once he did that, which I totally wasn't expecting, right? I thought he hated my guts. I never thought we were going to make amends. So that's why I was like, I don't care what I say. But once he did that, it really opened an avenue for further communication and that amend. And so that's what we're telling Killian. It's like, you know, when you do that, like, Ashley's not like a stone cold, like, unreasonable person. So I really believe. And I'm very close to Ashley. It starts with that accountability with no expectation. And then you kind of give space and hold space for that person. And if they get there, awesome.

But sometimes they don't. Oh, Jessica, I wanted to ask, we didn't touch on who you were going to pick, right? Yeah. Did you have a decision? So what you see in the, in the show, like I would have chosen Luke. He reminds me so much of one of my best friends here in Charlotte, one of my best guy friends. And like, I knew that there wasn't going to be like any kind of like we were going to go to church. We were going to go to the gym. But also because of the way that things shaked out before Jebben left, like me and Casey like we're talking and we're just like, like, can you imagine like me doing a trial marriage with Jebben?

I think that that would have made phenomenal TV. I mean, no, I could watch we got to see it. I could watch him on Loop. Like, yeah. Honestly. What a character. Yeah.

He's a cartoon character. I think you guys would have been, you guys would have been great. Yeah. I just think it would have just been amazing. But yeah, Luke was who I was most connecting with. Me and Killian,

since the show have like become friends because we have the All-Star connection. Blake, they don't show it, but Blake and I got into it at the cocktails because he hit me with some dumb shit. And I called him out on it. And I was like, what was the dumb shit? He was being too presumptive about who I was. And I'm the oldest girl in the show. So it's like, you're not going to talk to me any kind of crazy way because I don't know you like that, Blake Boy.

We spent the least amount of time together on the show. I told Haley, you know, I let her know. I was like, just so you know, I'm planning to sit him down. And so it was very much like, you're operating by the golden rule, but you don't know me. You need to operate by the platinum rules. You need to treat me the way I want to be treated. And I don't appreciate being called out over things that like problems with me and Eidre's relationship that was probably shared with you in confidence. Don't do that again. And so now, I mean, now we're good, I guess. As can be like right now. like with every all the fraught emotion um but yeah i the the boys in dating week see like i could have gone with anybody that would have i mean it i would have made it work i'm a very people person i'm a yapper it's uh it's interesting jesska gris to hear that you've become close or friends with with killian uh i i asked him if he felt like he was in a position to be you know safe to date so to speak or you know um capable of of of being the type of a respectful partner that anyone deserves.

Do you feel like he's in that place today? And if not, what work do you think he needs to do to be that person? So I need you understand, too. Like, I became friends with Killian in tandem with Ashley as they were sunsetting their relationship. Sure. You know, we'd both FaceTime me. And they would both check on me because by that time, you know, me and Edrice had separated.

I do think, I mean, we all have work to do, right? I think that Killian has to get to a point where, like, he's got to let go of the resentment that he has towards Ashley and to how things shook out. You know, it is unfortunate and it didn't bring out the best in them. I think that, like, Killian's not a bad guy, but he's made some major mistakes. One of the things that we talked about, it's like, Ashley doesn't trust you in a relationship because you're hanging out with dudes. that do stuff that Ashley doesn't want you to do. So change that. I think that as he turns that external energy towards himself,

it's going to work so much better for him because the only person that he can have expectations of is himself. And he's the only person that can let himself down. So I think that that's the work that he needs to do. It's just, it's hard. Everything's happening in a vacuum. I don't want to excuse the way that he's, treat it and shown up for Ashley because I think that he means very, very well, but there's just a

disconnect between what she needs and what he's able to give and he's resentful about harboring that resentment as it relates to them breaking up. So, you know, I think being able to let go of that and really focus his energy inward so that way he can do the healing because he's not, you know, I've also, I also know of times where he's been incredibly devoted as a partner. So I think that as you can see when you are harboring pain and not addressing it in the right way and not healing from it, you do get toxic. You do get into positions where you are hurting each other further. So, yeah. Well, I mean, listen, and I hope you don't take my, uh, you being friends as a critique. Quite frankly, I'm glad he has, um, friendships with women, um, to help guide him and how to be a

better partner to women because too many times you see guys who at least seemingly move like Killian who like maybe the biggest problem is they don't have positive women relationships, you know, to be a guide. So I'm glad he has someone like yourself who's willing to be a friend, whether he deserves it or not. What's a future look like for you guys or like what do you guys hope that you guys can do going forward? I think we've been taking a day by day, but first and foremost is getting through these next few weeks, I believe. It's just, you know, I feel like, uh, I, Some of this is very deserving, so I will take it. There's a lot more I need to do.

It's not over. There's family members. There's friends I need to like, you know, face and apologize too. I think when we get on, like, when I get to that point and I like speak to, you know, her parents, like she, you know, she talks to my parents and we kind of push through the other end. Yeah, I think, you know, there's a long future for us. And in the meantime, like, I'm just trying our hardest. It's just be as vulnerable as possible. Just be present with her.

Like, we, like, it's crazy because we don't argue now. It's just like, we just, like, talk for a long time. And I, you know, you guys see me on the show. Like, you know, I don't talk that much. And so this is like, you know, I got to do it. And it's uncomfortable. But, like, you know, it's building trust. It's building, like, these bonds that, like, I didn't have before.

I felt like, you know, sometimes there was some vulnerability. She was leaving, like, behind two. And so, like, the fact that, that I'm like pushing into it. And so she's pushing more. And so I feel like we're getting closer. And, you know, we're slowly building that trust. And, and, you know, I told her, like, for all that everything, like, you know, us getting back to reality.

I was like, you know, you have every right to, like, walk away, especially with, you know, the potential backlash you can get, you know, for hanging around with me. Who says some, like, off the, like, outlandish stuff. And, and she, you know, she loves me enough to do that. So, you know, it's something, you know, I've. totally admiring her to like take that risk and like you know take a hit and and you know and for the sake of love so so that's huge for me well we're wishing guys the best of luck and i definitely definitely a deal with the like the family stuff and then definitely stay offline um i if i can give you any advice you don't need to address the critics so to speak i mean your family members

obviously parents and people who you care about that are affected by the the the things that you guys said on TV certainly matters, but yeah, try to try not to bring the internet into your relationship. That's a winless battle. Yeah. But wishing you guys the best of luck. And thanks for coming on and, you know, explaining the reunion, but certainly a fascinating turn of events. So can I say one thing? Yeah, please. So I really don't think that we would have ever spoken again if it had not been for the reunion and it going so terribly and you feeling the need to reach out to me. So like in a weird kind of like paradoxical way, our worst moment is what brought us back together again. Because I mean, I wasn't looking at yourself.

I had you blocked. Like I was trying to make sure I avoided you at all costs. So it's just it's we're kind of leaning into, you know, the serendipity of it all. And just, you know, being grateful. I got it. I would love to leave you guys with. Obviously, I'm like hoping the best and healthy relationship for you guys going forward. Your scene in that reunion was some of the best TV, like reality TV.

I've seen it. And obviously, like, it's such a hard and like painful thing. So I understand. But just a viewer standpoint. To be have five minutes of air time. Yeah. throughout the season, and only to really bring the reunion home is quite the... You guys are stars.

Truly. We wish there was more of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait for the time. But all jokes aside, I appreciate you guys willing to face the critics, do the work, and actually try to, you know, people use the word accountability like it's fucking candy.

You guys are actually trying to actually walk to walk. So I commend you guys for doing, at least in making the attempt and wishing you guys nothing but the best going forward and hopefully a happy ending to you both. Yeah, we'll keep you guys close in. I appreciate that. We appreciate that. Take care, guys. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thank you. Wild. Wild stuff. I love reality TV. I am pleasantly surprised. Pleasantly surprised. Me too. The most well-adjusted couple. Well, I mean, they got some work to do. Yeah, yeah, obviously. But they could actually, like,

The words they were saying made sense and seemed like they knew what they were saying and believed them. Because we should have meant so much and rightfully so. It seems like, you know, he is trying to be a better person. It's at least nice to see. An attempt. That was an example of going to therapy and taking the tools and applying them versus using therapy talk to excuse one's actions and never actually address anything. They both were like, fuck, maybe we were the problem. You know, and they both were the problem and they both were acknowledging it.

Jessica Griss, the idea of wanting to believe you're a good person is stopping you from acknowledging that you fuck up. I related to that. No, I think it's one of the most relatable things for all of us. I was like, I've been there in a relationship where we're like, we know I'm a good person, but my actions, that was fucked up. Also, her owning up to like, yeah, when you're at a reality TV reunion and you say things, like, sometimes you do leave stuff intentional and you are kind of giving a bit of a performance. She's like, oh, I ate.

Fuck. I know. She's like, I knew exactly what I was doing. And it's like, honestly, have you guys ever seen, um, I believe it's you've got mail.

Love that movie. You know when you've got mail. It's better than sleepless in Seattle. Agree. And you've got mail when Meg Ryan is having a conversation with Tom Hanks and she's like, you always just like know the exact perfect thing to say in that moment and to say something to someone that will like hurt them and just say the perfect thing.

And then one time she does it to him and then feels so bad. And I always think about that with like reality TV and stuff of just like, damn, sometimes it's like you do like it's so easy. It's right there. Yeah. And you just like have to not. If this works and they persevere and they go the distance, they must really, really love each other because I was sitting there when he made the comment like, oh, I have to address some of our family members. And she was like, my dad. And I was like, wow, I think if I were them, I would have just wipe my hands.

Clean and been like, hey, love you a lot, but I don't want to actually face any of your family members after what I said on TV. No, that's true. And I'm going to go start a refresh. He has a gauntlet in front of him. He has to go to her dad after he said. He's willing to do this.

Busted. Yeah. And even more after that interview, I love Jessica Grace. I think she's a star. I think she's a star. I, like, again, rooting for her relationship. Yeah.

And peace, she, GERLY has a way with words that not many do. Well, it's time for us to go. We appreciate you guys listening. Thank you to all our guests, Jessica Grace, Adrease, and Killian for taking the time and talking about their experience in an ultimatum. Thank you guys for listening. Don't forget to subscribe to Vial Files Plus. You'll be glad that you did.

We'll see you back on Monday for another jam-packed week and more ultimatum to unpack Wednesday. I feel like we'll be explosive. We'll see you on Monday. Bye-bye.