The Viall Files - E1165 - How To Get Cast On Reality TV And Dancing With The Stars Tea W/ Stephani Sosa

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Jazzy Collins joins us to pull back the curtain on reality TV casting, from Love Island and The Bachelor to The Traitors, what makes someone castable, spotting clout chasers, and why villains don't know they're villains. Plus, Stephani Sosa from Dancing with the Stars: The Next Pro stops by to talk the competition, Ezra, dream dance partners, and that viral accidental injury moment. We also get into the In The City reunion, Kyle and Amanda, Nicolandria, and bring on TikTok's Kayda impersonator for a very unserious villa meditation. "Kayda, what do you think could end all world suffering?" Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com   THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Helix Sleep: Go to https://helixsleep.com/viall for 27% off sitewide, exclusive for listeners of The Viall Files. Spa Weekend: Book your escape and treat yourself to SPA WEEKEND. Only in theaters August 21st. David Protein: Head to Walmart today to stock up on 4CTs of your favorite flavors, like Blueberry Pie and Salted Peanut Butter. Check out https://walmart.com to find a store near you! Figs Scrubs: Use code FIGSRX for 15% off your first order at https://wearfigs.com ASPCA: To explore coverage, visit https://aspcapetinsurance.com/viall  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles  

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Only in theaters, August 21st. Jimmy Sotos is, like, if I'm going to have a type and a guy, it would be Jimmy Sotos. You let that man bounce you around like a ball. Oh. Yeah. And honestly, if I had to picture you with a guy, it would be a Jimmy Sotos. Like, you and him next to each other. I will say that video of like, teach me how to Duggy that he did during Love is Blind.

When it comes up on my feed, I don't not stop watching it. I do watch it on loop three times. Yeah. Yeah. How did he do that? Justin and I kind of think that because we've been watching so much straight reality TV, we're becoming straighter. We are. Wow.

Because we both like have been attracted to. Because I had a crush on Kaylee I'm becoming gayer Exactly I think I'm constantly becoming gay We're talking about like Netflix Because Kaylee's the one that I was like

Oh she's so hot Like I couldn't Wait Kaylee from from Thumbition She was like unreally beautiful Yeah It was like crazy Justin's hetero crush

From this job is Like a really sweet beautiful woman And mine's Jimmy Sotos Can we get a clap? What's going on it? Oh my God I don't know.

What's good? This reminded me of my, what's going on, everybody? How's it going? Welcome to the Vile Falls. How do you feel about spitting in public? Non-sexual. Not the non-sexual. Spitting in public, just like,

ha, tour. Well, the other day, I'm getting over a cold. Oh. And you know how, like, it's just that, that last, you know, like, a cold that, like, a cold that, like, lingers for a while. And then there's, like, you're better. You're like, you're not sick. but there's like that post nasal yeah like the like fallout you know like the you know

like a nuclear winter still hanging out yeah in your head and then you're you're you're talk a lot and you're like a lot of that stuff yeah yeah great for podcasting yeah i was driving into work and i did one of those and i had a big old lugy in my mouth and i was driving and i rolled down the window and i spit and then i was this like foul yeah it was like is that socially okay am i Should I have been arrested? I feel like I don't. What else were you supposed to do in that situation in your car? I don't know.

I have a take on this. If I'm with somebody, a dude and he's a regular, like he's a regular offender. Ew. Yep. I'm out. Like constantly spitting?

Yeah. Like if he's just like somebody who doesn't care. You've dated one of those? No, no, no, no. I've been around like dudes who are just like you're walking and they'll just hawk a loogie and there's no like,

oh, I'm so sorry. It's normal to them. I'm like, you've been around boys way too much. Yes. Like you need a little, you know, socialization with women. But if it's like this, you're getting over a cold,

I have the ability to be like, you know what? He's getting over cold. It happens, you know. Got to do what you got to do. Yeah, I definitely think it's a time and place type of thing. Like, if you're in your car, what else it, like, I'm not spit on my car floor. Have you ever rolled down the window, spit and have it fly back in your face? Oh, my God.

No, but I actually have like a worse version. I do too. Which was, um, there was a brief period. So I have a long time ago. I do not do this anymore. But there was a brief period of time, which I do. did have a pack of cigarettes and I would have a cigarette in my car on the way home every day, like years ago.

And one time I did like throw it out and then it literally like came back in. Ouch. And it smelled so bad. During COVID when I was living in Venice, I was roller skating because when else was there to do. Period. I did that this weekend. And I had to spit and I did. And then I was like, I thought I was going to get canceled.

Yeah, like somebody recorded this. No, I was like someone definitely recorded it. And I was like, I don't think you're allowed to spit. I don't, you know, I didn't, granted, I was outside in the breezy, as we now know, very safe atmosphere of being outside. But that was during a time when, you know, apparently being 100 feet away from someone outside was, anyway, that was a scary moment. I was like, oh my God, it's over.

It's like my career, right in that moment, just out the window. So it turns out everything was fine. You just told on yourself. Turns out you're just a little grody for spitting in public. Yeah. Well, we have a great episode lined up for you. It's as usual jam packed. We have Kada light.

Not really. We haven't had a chance to talk with Kada from Love Island. So we found the next best thing. A gay man who sounds just like her. He's really good too. You love an impression. I love an impression. Who doesn't love an impression?

I can listen to people do impressions all day long. It's also just so silly. And so this man on TikTok, his friends or followers, I mean, he had, you know, a couple. He doesn't even have like a large following, but large enough that people are like, yo, you sound just like Kada. And he did a little bit of a Kada impression. Our Queen Kada, I saw it and apparently stamped her approval on it. Ooh, love.

Is he going to do the interview in his Kada voice the whole time? I don't, you know, we were just like, hey, do you want to come on and talk like Kada? we haven't had a chance to talk with her yet. So we're just like, maybe we can all close her eyes and imagine what it would be like to. Yeah, have her here. Talk to Heda. So he is joining us.

We also have Stephanie Sosa from the new hit Hulu show, Dancing with the Stars, the Next Pro. Everyone's talking about, everyone's enjoying it. Obviously, it's dancing with the Stars is in its, like, real. It's in its Golden Era. Prime. It is. It's Prime Golden Era.

And they are looking for their next pro. And we are privileged to have, one of its contestants who may or may not have a violent side to her. It's, it's, it's, accidental violence. You guys aren't watching it. Someone left with a

concussion because they got hit by our guest. Dance is no joke. I mean, we're kind of joking. I think it was an accident. It was an accident. It looked like an accident. It's a contact sport. It is. At the end of the day. Have you guys ever gotten concussed? No. No. Not that I know of. Knock on wood. Do I look like I play contact

sports? Oh, I like, I I fully got a concussion one time from literally getting a basketball thrown in my head when I was in, like, third grade. Dang. Anyway. That reminded me of a time in eighth grade where I, it's one of the funniest moments, but I probably wouldn't. I was at the YMCA playing basketball with some of my friends. And there was this guy who was just, you know, wasn't very good at basketball. It was just really big hair.

He constantly wanted the ball. And he was just calling for the ball, calling for the ball, but he wasn't looking. and then I like quarterback through it and he wasn't looking to hit him in the face and his hair flew back. That's kind of what happened to me. But it wasn't a grown man. No, it was like, it was also like

a 10-year-old girl. We also have, I think you guys are really going to enjoy this conversation. Jazzy Collins, who is a casting director in this in Tinseltown, Hollywood. She's casted shows like Love Island, The Bachelor,

T. Traders and many others. So she is here to give us the inside baseball of how do you get cast on these shows? What are casting directors looked for? Some fascinating stories and insight from Jazzy. I think you all will really enjoy that conversation. Tinseltone BTS. Do you want to give Susie back her iPad?

Yeah. Sorry, I'm a little tired, guys. Thank you. Fatherhood. How's it been going? This is great, yeah. Yeah. I think I said this.

I'm kind of over. now it's kind of mad at me for I'm kind of over the newborn stage. Yeah. When my friend had her baby she was kind of like the same thing she's like I'm excited for the next stage

past potato. Yeah, potato's it. But like when it's your first you don't know anything else so you're like oh this is great and they do smell. Wonderful.

Wonderful. Yeah. But when there's two of them it's like you. It's overwhelming. When they're both crying oh my God and then you get one settled and then the other ones are

and it's the Natalie posted a pretty impressive photo of you with one of the twins in your arms. You had one of the twins on your legs and you had River right next to you. And I'm like, I'm a great dad. You are a great dad. Let's give you credit where credit is due. I'm good at that.

But like, did you know that your entire body could just like double a double hammock for children? Yeah, it's a new skull set. Also, like, I'm going to impress by myself. I'm just picturing other people listening to this show who have mixed feelings about me who just threw up their breakfast in their car you know because newborns are like so fragile and yet like there's just a level of comfort you get

with newborns and holding them when you're kids and like there's this I don't know I'm just kind of the way I feel comfortable holding one with one hand and just kind of walking around and doing things it's like I feel like I should I'm probably a little bit more reckless I, everything's fine. Those were that I was agreeing with you because I had another friend that had a baby because

clearly I have not. And I remember she wanted me to come over to hold her baby. And I don't like holding babies under once they're able to hold their heads up. Then I'm fair game. I totally understand that. Yeah, I'm like when they're so fragile and they're not mine, I'm just like, I don't know, I'm whatever arm I'm holding them in, it's gushing sweat. I'm trying to act cool.

But I have so much anxiety because I'm just like intrusive thoughts. I don't even have a kid. And I'm like, what happens if my arm gets tired? Is it too soon to ask if they want him back? Like even now, after being a dad, I'm like, if I'm around someone as a newborn, like, you want to hold him? No. Yeah. Yeah.

That makes me feel a lot better to hear it from, like, a parent. You know what I mean? Because I'm like, yeah, because I also don't want to hold your newborn. Yeah. I just, it does. It stresses me out. I'm like, in what world, why are you giving me your baby? Even like dogs.

It's like, I love my dog. I'm obsessed with my dogs, but like, you know, cool. Oh, I love everyone's dog. That on the other hand. I disagree. That's me. Babies, I'm like, all right, you give me a dog. I'm like, oh, yes, this is the best day in my life.

So this friend was changing her baby, but I just remember her doing the one-armed thing where it was just like I likened it to tossing a pizza almost because it was just like the way that she could just be like, all right, do this and then put the baby back down. And I was like, yeah. That thing's bones are made of jello. What are you doing? You know what I mean? But I think that's just like a parent thing.

If you're watching football, if you're watching football, if you're watching football, and sometimes, like, the running back is getting a little careless with the football. And it's just like, whoa, tuck that, tuck it in. Hold it in, yeah. Yeah. I think that a lot when I watch football. Yeah, all the time.

When I'm watching football, I'm always like, protect that ball. Oh, my mom's favorite thing to yell at the screen when we're watching football because she knows the Steelers can hear her is. Holon zubo! Horon zubo! And it always makes me laugh. And sometimes they listen. Sometimes they do.

Well, it's time to get into the show. We have Kata Light up and waiting. Up next. Kada, Michael. Michael. Michael Kada. Can't wait. It's going to be fun. Mikey, welcome to the show.

Or should I say Kata, Light. Okay. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Well, we appreciate you joining us. We were kind of joking before. We haven't had the opportunity to speak with Katie yet. and then we came across your TikTok

of where you did this brilliant Kada impression. It's my understanding that, hey, you're not necessarily, you didn't watch Love Island. You were kind of made aware by the internet that you had this shockingly similar cadence

and voice to Kada, the star of Love Island. A Kada. A Kada. Oh, Kada. The cadence. Yeah, no, that is true. I was just kind of like playing around

on TikTok going off of that one ever viral moment was going. People are like, you sound like Katie, you sound like Kate. And truth be told, I've watched about like five episodes of Love Island. And one of them, I was like coming back. I was like, divas, who is this, Katie? You're talking about. Is this like a slang term? Like, girl, she's from Love Island. So then I looked into it. And I was like, all right, we do sound alike. And then did a video and then the rest is history. Did you have to practice the video? Or did it come out so naturally, like it almost felt like you and her were the same person. Like, do you feel connected with her spiritually, knowing that you have the same voice?

A little bit now. I will. At first, I was like, oh, my gosh, I think this is going to be an absolute flop. I was like, I had, you know, my 15 seconds of fame. I had one video go pretty big. And then I was like, I don't think it's going to be that good. And then once people are like, I think Kate is in the room with us, I was like, okay, we, I'm her. So if you see me on Love Island next season, don't be surprised.

Period. Period. And how are you and Zach doing? We're doing well. You know, the long distance is a little tough, but a lot of face times. And, you know, hopefully when his visa gets fixed, he can come over to New Hampshire this summer. You guys, like, close my eyes while he said that. And it's Keda.

Yeah, I was wondering, Kada, what's your favorite thing about New Hampshire? You know what? I got to admit the summers. It's a nice coastal time. So it is, this time of year is the best to be. So I'm glad to be back after filming for. Oh, my God. Amazing.

Yeah. Amazing. I love it. I also heard, you know, I've just been like really stressed out lately with all of this Love Island discourse. It seems to get so toxic. And I heard that like you have a guided meditation. That I do.

I, you know, picked it up at while on the villa. Wow. Okay. I didn't know. Is it something you did with the whole villa to like calm everyone's nerves in between, you know, all the intense scenes? Yeah. When they were, you know, when it was intense.

And stakes were high and pressure was up. I was like, okay, guys, I have this little calming meditation that we do back old in New Hampshire. It's kind of a tradition. Okay. Yeah. We'd love to hear it. And bring us into the villa, if you could. Okay.

Let's do it. I'm going to play a little bit of music. Okay, guys. Shut the fuck up and close your eyes. Nick, close your eyes and take a slow, deep breath in. And just like, let it out. Imagine yourself standing at the edge of a peaceful metal. The air is cool and the sun is warm.

You notice a baby lamb approach you. You didn't choose this baby lamb. This baby lamb chose you. Hug your baby lamb. Feel it soft, supple wool brushing against your bossom. No, bissom. New Hampshire education is not the best. Rewind.

Rewind. Feel it soft, supple wool brushing a against your bosom. You are enough, says the baby lamb. You are strong. You are beautiful. Podcasting is a real job. As you hug the baby lamb transformed before you.

The baby lamb is now Zach. Zach? You say, Zach, what are you doing here? Zach, this is my meadow. No, I'm actually mad at you right now. But as Zach looks back at you, all your fears melt into his eyes. You know, deep down, that you are perfect in every single way. Now we're going to say our mantra,

I'm the baddest bitch in the villa. I'm the baddest bitch in the villa. No bombshell can destroy me. No bombshell can destroy me. Casa Amor cannot destroy me. Casa Amor cannot destroy me. I am the epitome. I am the epitome.

Negativity is ass. Negativity is ass. Positivity is standing on business. Positiveity is standing on business. Now take your knuckles and beat them into your opposite hand. Like I'm a bad bitch. Zach, make me avocado toast tomorrow. Are we repeating that?

Are you guys? No, sorry. After positivity is standing on business, you don't have to repeat me. Sorry, you should have clarified. Wow. Thank you, Kato. I feel like the baddest bitch in the villa. I do feel like the baddest bitch in the villa.

Therapy works. And that's the goal. Yeah. It does. Yeah. If I had that voice, I think I would also carry that energy with me. Yeah. You know what?

ever since it went up, I absolutely have. I'm like, I'm fucking Kada. Yeah. Well, I'm allowed to curse. Mikey, didn't Kada comment on your TikTok as well? Yes. You got the stamp of approval. And she was like, okay, you ate that up. And I tried

to tag her in it, but she like has her setting set that she could. So, however it came across her page, I was like, wow, this was a huge moment. And they have a new Love Island fan because I know what I'm doing next summer. Can we get a? I'm fucking. pissed.

I'm fucking pissed. So good. What is your and Jack's dream vacation? I think it's spending a little two-week vacation in a nice villa

over in Europe, preferably Sicily. Nice. Kianna, I was just wondering what, like, you think could end all world suffering. For Zach to shut the fuck. Yeah.

We love Z. We love that. But sometimes they just need to. Okay. They do. Oh, are you going to watch the reunion? Oh, absolutely. She's all the reunion.

Oh, you'll be there. You'll be there. I'm sorry. I'll be there. What are you looking forward to address most at the reunion, Kato? I think I want to address to America about how they didn't believe in me and Zach's relationship. And they called us a situation.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Standing on business. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking the time out of your very. busy popular schedule these days to guide us to that meditation. It really felt like we were in the villa.

This has been a lot of fun, Mikey. I appreciate you taking the time, man. And yeah, hopefully this is a thriving business for you. I really want you two to meet someday, you and Kato. I really hope we could. So if you ever have that kind of pull or somehow can get her out to L.A., just tell me I'll be on the next flight out. Love it.

Thanks so much for taking the time, Mikey, or should I say, Cato, this was a lot of fun. man. Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me. This was so much fun. All right. Take you. Bye. Bye. Bye. What is it about impressions that make it so fun? It's so fun. I think it's just because like there's so much going on in the world. And when it's just someone doing a silly voice that sounds like a voice you like, it's just so pure.

But even when the world is fine, regardless, it's just fun. Yeah. But it's also that when he's speaking normally, he also still sounds like Keda. What is it? Is it a raspy voice? It's like a bit of a fry. I don't know. It's a bit of a fry.

And then there's like peaks and valleys. Yeah. What the fuck? Yeah. I'm actually fucking pissed right now. Yeah. Yeah, but it's not the same. It's not the same.

No. No. It's almost disrespectful. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Kada. I'm sorry, Mikey. There's a fine line between impersonation and mocking. You know, I just want to take a moment.

And that was celebrating Keda. Yeah. And we want to make sure our audience knows a difference. No, it's like the coolest voice. It's like that one friend. you're just like you're she's obviously smoke show hot but I'm like your voice just makes you like she has a hot girl voice hot girl voice hot girl voice it's cool when someone does an impression of me that it just sound like they have a stuff he knows and mumble like not as fun we need to get a nick

impersonator on next or maybe I'm just self-concounter I mean I do you think do you think kata like is self-conscious about her voice or do you think she's been able to embrace no I think that there is so much, like, true negativity that comes to these people that anyone who's, like, jokey and funny with it, I think they love. I think they're, like, thanks for being nice about it, you guys. Yeah, and she's just cool. It's just like, it's cool. Her voice is awesome.

There is a very specific hot girl voice, and it's like she has that hot girl voice, but with just some mth to it. Yeah. And it's so great. And I saw Corbin loves all the impressions in the chat. That's fun. Melanie. So I think they're all leaning in.

They love that. Yeah. Just a smoothie. Oh, oh, ho, ho, ho, ho. All right. Here's the thing about lifelong friendships. They can survive careers, marriages, kids, but can they survive a girl's weekend away?

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You know? Silly. Silly goofy. It's like, God forbid we have a laugh. Maybe someday we'll actually get to the talk to the real queen, Keda. But that was great. That was. We also, to later this episode, the reunion part two of In the City, which I, you know, I had mixed feelings on going into this episode.

I've had like Kyle and Amanda fatigue. In what way? It's just like, okay. Yeah. Just kind of over it. It's over. it. I'm over it. It's like it felt like they kept squeezing, trying to squeeze more like juice out of the lemon. But turns out there was more juice to squeeze. The whole like marriage, no sex for four years conversation.

Brutal. Blue my mind. No sex for four years, but maybe three times. Yeah. I kind of assumed when they said no sex for four years, I assume they meant like maybe 15. Like to be honest. I was like, oh, they're like not having sex. I'm like, but I was like maybe 15 times. The exaggeration of that. In that conversation. I went through like periods. It was like whiplash of being like, you know, because when it was like, oh, you know, Kyle may have cheated on Amanda. Like she recently heard that like in their marriage,

he had sex with someone else. And then it was this like, this thought of like, man, man, man, how is Kyle? Like avoiding. Like the scandal being so big in the direction of Amanda being like the villain that it's truly amazing how like, how Kyle's been absolved from literally anything. Like he could do no wrong.

And I'm thinking, wait, how is he able to kind of get away with this? Then Kyle's like, well, we've literally never had sex ever. And not that I'm saying if you don't have sex with your partner that gives. But like that there's a, that was a level of, I don't know, like, I honestly would be curious to talk to an expert on this topic of like almost the emotional trauma of getting married and have your partner completely like push you aside. And then Amanda's explanation of like why they didn't have sex didn't quite land with me. I don't, you know. It kind of bothered me to be honest, just in the sense that it's like it almost felt like we villainized, not we,

but like she was trying to like villainize Kyle because he was more focused on trying to set them up for their future where I was like the entire time in the show she's talking about wanting to settle down in New Jersey, get a house, have kids, the whole. thing as if Kyle and Kyle is like working towards that. And I'm not saying that Kyle was any type of angel in that relationship. He obviously has some sort of anger management issues and whatnot. And I kind of feel like they kind of scathed over the like how often do your arguments result in you calling each other names and whatnot. And then you saw Kyle trying to be like, well, Amanda, like I don't just start calling you names out of nowhere. That's a weird line.

You know, well, he was saying that like you almost hit me for something. And I was like there was an episode of Summerhouse that also resurfaced where it was like he was eating bonbon but drunk late at night and she came out and just smacked the shit out of him said you can't have those it's for tomorrow she literally hit him she literally hit him she's smashed his shit on the ground for not answering her phone calls so i'm just kind of like again and i'm not saying that there's a side to be on or whatever i'm just like i think it's very easy and it's very annoying how amanda wants to point out the two things that she harps over with kyle but then it's also kind of like with holding sex and intimacy in your relationship while somebody's trying to pave away for your

future and is doing your taxes, cleaning your room, doing everything else taking care of you. And then it's like, well, you wouldn't stop drinking and going out. And it's just like, I don't know, I feel like I sound crazy saying it out loud because it's almost like I'm saying Kyle can do no wrong. And I don't agree with that. But I'm just saying that any relationship there's compromise. Kyle has been consistently who he's been since day one. Amanda was, oh, I'm going to be out party.

Maybe we'll meet up. I'll come over at 2 a.m. and Skinny Dip and the whole thing. Then you guys get married and it's like he needs to calm down. No, it was like it was this weird. Yeah, I'm with you like this. Amanda's explanation at first was like, well, first it almost seemed like they were just kind of like debating love languages where it's just like Kyle's like, hey, I'm an access

service guy. I do all these things. And I understand that that's not how relationships work. You have to kind of understand both each other's like love languages and yada, yada, but like the way Amanda was describing it, I just kind of sound like she was deliberately like withholding intimacy because Kyle wasn't like doing things perfectly the way he wanted to. And it's like, again, I get it.

I understand that like from the lady's point of view, like, yeah, it makes a lot of sense when a guy is just like there's no romance and there's no like kind of foreplay and things like that totally valid. But like the way it was like an all or nothing. Usually it's just like, yeah, we were like, you know, our sex life wasn't great and I realized that like maybe there was no, you know, but like the way she was describing it's just like it was like an all or nothing thing, you know, where it's just like, well, when did, there was no sex period. It was just like, and in a marriage, again, physical intimacy is important. Understand it. Obviously, you know, you still need everyone consent and things. You know, it's a weird conversation because you don't owe anyone anything. in terms of sex, but when it comes to the health of a marriage, you need physical intimacy. And like, it just, the way Amanda was describing it, it was like she was just like at every turn, like putting Kyle, like almost pushing Kyle to just be like, am I even married?

Am I in a relationship? And again, it doesn't make his actions okay. But like the way she was describing it, you're just like, man, you push someone to the limits. And I'm like, he's made it clear throughout their arguments that this was an issue where I'm just kind of like, And I totally have empathy for her in the sense of like, okay, you're gone all day, you're working, and you're stressed out. And then you come into bed after not seeing you all day and expect me to just give it up to you so you can go to bed or you can go out and DJ or whatever. I can completely understand that. For sure.

But I'm like at the same time, it's hard when watching her in the city versus the last season of Summerhouse talking about how she's trying to save this marriage, how she put her all in. And we watched Summer House and it was like, where? You didn't even want to write down with the man, let alone put him down. every dinner, every opportunity that you got, and then claiming that like, oh, I'm trying to keep our marriage together by separating and then signing a one-year lease. It's like you're saying all of these things that makes sense, but then your actions are saying something completely different. Yeah, but that's the thing because it does go both ways, right? Like you, you know, my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is the ladies love the like the courting, as Amanda said,

the foreplay, the intimacy, the building dates. And Kyle said all he doesn't play names. That's very important in like a physical relationship in any partnership. But on the flip side, like men want to feel like respected and valued and like everybody wants to feel wanted in a relationship. And Amanda just to demonstrate it like she never acted like she respected Kyle.

And that makes a person feel a certain way. Like there was no foreplay on hit her on both sides. On both sides. I think I feel a little different from you guys though. And it's it is me being like devil's advocate a bit for Amanda, which it's weird because like I watching it I'm like I am not particularly like drawn to this person Amanda like I'm really not and that's why it's kind of weird that I just feel something for her that's different from what you guys are saying because I'm like he said at some point in the reunion he was like yeah I do regret it because I never got the trust back like I broke the trust at the beginning and then I never got it back and so how I feel was like Amanda should have left yeah because I understand not being able to give that back to something. somebody, no matter what they do, no matter how much they're trying to provide or whatever,

like, if you don't respect or if you don't trust, it's like you're never going to build on top of it because the foundation is just already broken. And so a part of me, like, empathizes when she talks about depression and all that stuff. I'm like, I think she was just maybe in such a bad place. And they've, yeah, I think so. I mean, it sounds like it. That's what she's describing. I mean, I'm like, well, listen, if she was like clinically depressed.

That's what it sounds like she's describing. Does it not? It does. It sounds like that's what she's trying to describe. But I guess we also had four years of watching her on TV. And obviously, I'm no expert. So I don't know what that looks like. But I guess it's just, I don't know.

I think it would also be hard even like, as I said, where I'm like, because I see where you're coming from and up. But I completely agree with you on the sense that like, listen, when we saw all of their marriage issues and whatnot coming up in the last two shows, last two seasons, it's been like, oh, well, you. cheated on me before we got married where Kyle's like, well, you're not intimate with me. I don't feel close to you post marriage.

And I'm like, it's a really interesting factor because at the end of the day, yes, she should have left. But you made the decision saying that you could move on from his indiscretion before you guys were seriously committed or making, you know, starting a life together. So to then hold that against him four years later, it's just like. But didn't he cheat in their marriage too? He made out with somebody at the beginning of their marriage. It's all very vague.

That's what like again like to me I'm like if that happened like if you cheated on somebody and then you forgive them before you get married and then you get you decide to wipe it clean you get married and then you and then they they rewound that wound that's like okay I forgave you for that shit but then if you're making out with somebody you're reopening something that makes sense on it's like on the surface level but the way it's described it's almost as if like she never really forgave him she said she. she was forgiving him. And then in this relationship, it sounds like she, like, acted out in a way that was like punishing him for his behavior, which from a human standpoint makes a lot of sense, but I don't know who made the point. But yeah, listen, infidelity, sadly,

is a thing that happens in relationships. It often ends relationships. It, in a lot of cases, doesn't. And people work through it and forgive each other. And yeah, like, if you are choosing, to forgive your partner and, you know, it's, it can be very messy and whatever and you get therapy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But at some point, if you are going to forgive that person, it's kind of like your responsibility to like, you choose to be in this relationship. And you have to choose to like, you know, on some level let things go.

Because otherwise, it's just like weaponizing your, you know, what happened to you is a way to like get back at the person who hurt you, which again, as a human response. But it's like, how is that like healthy? You're kind of hurting each other. It's just a cycle. And then you, I feel like it's a cycle. Well, I want to just present a little bit of clarity just because in the city, the couple's therapy that they had was that she was upset about him cheating before they got married.

In the reunion that we just watched is when she said she just found out in the last week or so that he cheated in their marriage. But didn't she know he like, that was like sex? But she knew he like made out with somebody. and she was like the dance floor thing, right? Okay. So like that was because to me I'm like, it doesn't matter if it's sex or if it's making out with somebody on the dance floor. If you cheated on me,

I forgave you. And that will always be a pain point probably. But if we move forward, my expectation is that your behavior changes. So if you're like dancing with somebody on a dance floor, I just know me personally. If I forgive somebody move on, literally get married to them.

And then they're making out with somebody on the dance floor. I know I would be like, oh, everything that, like, Like, I literally married you. I moved past that shit. And now you're bringing me back into it. Like, that would be really hard for me. But I would leave.

That would make total sense if all of what you described happened within like a, like a three-month window or something. But did it not? Like, wasn't it right after they got married? He was on the dance floor. Was it right after? I don't know the time. Because my understanding of this relationship is everything we just talked about, they got

married. And prior to Amanda's like talking about. the lack of intimacy or Kyle and Amanda talking about like no sex that like these various rumors again like what we what seems like we all know and then Kyle's acknowledged is that throughout this marriage there were always Amanda had a deal with rumors and women DMing him and saying Kyle's doing this and Kyle's doing that which to your point makes a lot of sense but over the span of four years and the way Kyle was is like we got married and like never like we did we didn't even consummate the marriage yeah and it was like so if you get

married and then all of a sudden your partner doesn't want you to touch them for months. I mean, how long does it take for you to act out? Not making it what Kyle did okay. But again, this whole relationship sounds like it was just a fucking mess. Honestly, a lot of this marriage kind of sounds like it was convenience and I'm not trying to like downplay their relationship. It's giving showmands. That's what I'm saying is that I'm like, I think that there is too much for Amanda to

lose in the sense of walking away from Kyle that like if we get married and maybe a everything will change and it didn't. And so then it's like, because even Kyle has said that they wouldn't really interact with each other off camera. And then it was like they used the time and summer house to discuss their marriage issues and almost as therapy working through it with the public, which is insane. But I'm like, okay, so if you're talking about seven months out of the year that you're barely communicating with your partner, your partner's not intimate with you, your partner's not asking how your day is, how work is going, anything, isn't even willing to help you with work or pay bills or clean their house or whatever.

And then it's like you get on this show and then it's like let's just air out all of our dirty laundry to go back and not talk again. I'm like, that is just a miserable existence. And so it's crazy to me that both of them seem to have been protecting the other about how bad this relationship actually was because, yeah, if I was getting constant DMs about my fiance or my husband, no marriage. Yeah. I was just, I wouldn't have.

of their relationship seems to be how they've decided to treat each other post-relationship. We seem like really great friends. We've had like, you know, Kenny, you know, has been here a couple times in the past week. And I think the first time he talked about how, like, you know, how fascinating it is to like how Kyle's been able, even Amanda, this kind of mutual respect and consideration, which now that we have all this information makes a lot of sense. And honestly, makes it seem like their relationship was like a showmance. It was never really that real.

It was mostly a business partnership. Nicolandria. Outside of this. Literally, outside of this relationship, it was like that's why they are so, it's kind of easy for them to still be amicable because like at the end of the day. The passion wasn't there. Yeah, they never really were married married. Can I ask you guys a question?

This is, and honestly, this really, it's kind of using Amanda and Kyle as a jumping off point because their relationship is obviously so complicated. But like, I don't know. I've never been in a long-term relationship, right? And I guess I'm just like, there's always been part of me that's been, like, scared of the, of kind of like that happening. They're like, not like no sex, but I guess just like that point in a relationship. Be disconnected from your partner. Yeah.

Because I guess I've only like, yeah, I guess I've only gotten to the point of relationships where like when my relationships have ended, it's ended like still within that period of like. Sure. You know, you're figuring each other out. I mean, also, just to be clear, it's not always, it's not just about the sex. Oh, yeah, that's what I mean. You know, Natalie just had twins. I don't, you know, like, you know, when you're, when your partner's pregnant, there's, not there. Dynamics change.

Well, obviously. Yeah. But like, early on, pretty easy to have things not change all that much. There's a certain point, especially with twins where you're both kind of like, well, you know, I'll see in six months or so. But again, there's still a lot, without having sex, you know, there's still a ton of intimacy, even if it's holding hands or caressing or whatever. Like, you know, for outside of maybe the men on the valley, which, you know, while we would bowl my mind, how is this like, man, like chill the fuck out, man. She's just like she's eating a sandwich. She grew your child.

And then she birthed your child. And now she's like, Ray, can you chill the fuck out? She's a person. It has not been difficult for me, despite, like, loving and being obsessed with my wife and enjoying the physical relationship that we have. It, like, is not, it has not been difficult to just be like, you know, that's not going to happen for a while. Like, that's cool. Like, you know, it's just, it's part of a relationship. Again, there's other, there's a lot of other important things in a relationship that go into making sure you still feel connected and you still feel like there's that physical intimacy, even though, like, the act of, like, sex isn't happening.

I don't know if that answers your question It's really about staying connected I'm really I guess like You know I guess I've just been watching a lot of reality TV for this job And I think sometimes it like messes with my brain On just like long term relationships in general Yeah And I'm like and I was just wondering like your guys's point of view on that

As like two people that were in it And then someone who's like in a very nice long term relationship You know I'm like I think the biggest Like falsehood when it comes to relationships in general is that it's supposed to be easy. I'm like, I think that it's a lot of work and, you know, you go through tough periods. When you're with somebody for a long period of time, there are years that you kind of wish you could forget about. And there are years that are like, oh, my God,

if I could go back and relive that again. So I'm like, there's been moments where I've been disconnected from my partner and, you know, having to get back on the same page. It's, it's uncomfortable. It's, you know, waking up and being like, I don't feel like I recognize you and then trying to get back to a place where we're not being performative, but we're actually listening to each and understanding and implementing what the other person needs that wasn't being given. And a lot of the times it's hard to hear that shit when somebody that you love so much looks at you and is like, I just wish that you could hear me more or when this happens and you're just like, I do everything I can't, you know what I mean?

Because it's very easy to take things personally. But I'm like, I think the bravest thing that anybody can do in a relationship is be honest about what you need from somebody else. And it's not in a sense of shortcomings. It's not like, oh, you can't, you don't. You refuse. And making it a fight. It's just like, hey, like, this is what I need.

And when that person rises to that occasion, it's amazing. And sometimes you might have to fight about it one, two, three more times. But being on the other side of nine years, I will say that I'm like, yeah, I don't regret any argument we've ever had. I don't regret any hard time that we ever had because, like, I wouldn't be where I'm at right now if I would have given up. But it's like Kyle and Amanda never really had a day of being feeling married. Yeah, I guess that's like. Yeah. I think they didn't really want to understand each other. You know what I mean? Like where I'm just like, I think. That's the thing. They didn't want it. I think that's the, that is literally the thing. And that's literally what you're asking about, I think, too, is like at a certain point in a relationship, so many people, I think most people that we see that are older and it's like the romance is all gone. And they're just like roommates at the end of the day. And they argue, they bicker all the time. And it's like, if you don't want to understand your partner, if you don't, if you don't, if you're. you're not on the same team and like facing things. Like I do think you just grow apart. I feel like that

happens all the time. And I think probably when people are ready for relationships, this is my guess because somebody who's trying to figure it out myself. But it's like once you realize like, it's honestly the question that you say all the time, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? And it's like being able to really be like, okay, I just want to be happy with my partner. Like how can we be on the same page? How can we hear each other? And I think you're right. The most vulnerable thing you can do is like say what you need. And I think. think that's how you stay connected. But that's what I'm always fascinated with Bravo because that is the reality TV world in which

I don't have actual experience. Like, you know, we've had the benefit of interviewing so many people and, you know, we get into the weeds and we have a pretty clear understanding of how things work. But it's very different than like the Love Island and Bachelor world, right? Where you are in a very, you're in a controlled environment. You're in this bizarre world. And then after it, you're like, you're just kind of part of the real world kind of decompressing from this thing.

but even back to like in the reunion today the episode where they were talking about was it Gavin where they're basically like you did it for the cameras that whole conversation and I thought that was really fascinating because like they they neither of them heard each other where it was like they were saying the same thing and they were both like acting as if like their point made sense like well no we were doing it for the cameras like well

I thought their explanation was kind of bullshit but what's fascinating about it is like the more Bravo people I talk to, it's like what's so fascinating, especially the ones that have been on it for years. It's like they don't know the difference between what is on camera or outside of the camera, you know, and like in that world.

It's like the Truman. I've watched the, yeah, I rewatched Truman Show recently just because I was like, you know, I haven't watched this since I've, you know, worked on a podcast. And I was just like thinking about it

and watching Kyle and Amanda it's like, yeah, there is, and I don't, and I don't mean in the way that, like, they seem that they have, like, a relationship that's inauthentic or any sort of way, but it is, like, it's a mind fuck. It kind of looks inauthentic. But it's, like, on accident. I don't think it was on purpose. On one level, they have this mindset in Bravo is, like, you know, save it for the show, you know, like, hey, there's this pressure that clearly Lindsay feels because, like, she's been carrying this whole season on her own to really, like, amp things up. So like if you have, again, like Kyle's Amanda, who holds a relationship was based off the show that they would like,

it sounds like they literally would save their arguments in fights for the show, which on one end makes them like kind of good at their job. And, but on the other end, that's so. That's going to ruin your. And authentic where it's like, when do you, when does your life actually exist outside of the show or is it, is your life the show?

And it's so fascinating with Bravo. And then you have new cast members who come, who don't really know this world are like watching the Kyle's and amend of it all like how they roll and it may I think it makes them act very disingenuous early on because it seems like Gavin the only times he open every time Gavin speaks and I said this with Kenny it's like I can hear I can see him here in his head someone say action yeah where like no one's actually saying action in these in these environments but like you can tell that Gavin is this like all right are we rolling all right and then he performed.

And that's not what we want. Do you think that Kyle and Amanda staying together, it does feel like, okay, they save their arguments for when they shoot Summerhouse or whatever? Do you think that has more to do with, like, financially being like, okay, we got to, this is our cash cow. We got to show up. We got to make our money. Or do you think it's more so like that they believe that this show is their life and that they are like, okay, well, this is what we have to do because we have a show to film? Like, does that make sense?

Like, you think it's more about the money or more about, like, we need to show up and, like, we want to be known. Yeah, yeah, optics. Honestly. I think it's more about the money. More about the money. Well, you've heard Lindsay say and acknowledge, like, listen, I'm trying to feed my family. I'm trying to make this show in the city is like the future is like their new, you know, like summer house, like Lindsay and Kyle, they're kind of still on it. They're always the speculation if they're going to continue on it.

Sounds like for now they are. But, like, what does it look like a few years from now? I know, despite what Wes Wilson said and Lindsay feeling about it, like, eventually, like, partying the Hamptons is, you know, eventually I just stopped going to clubs, you know, it's just like it's not being fun for me, you know, like I, you know, like my life was a little different. And regardless of being the show you on, so I think Lindsay and Kyle and them, like, in the city is their, is their future opportunity. And there's a lot of pressure. And if you, if most of what you, if most of your income is not only from the show itself, but then the, the, the benefits and campaigns and all the partnerships that are all centered around the show and what happens with that if that goes away look at the cast of vanderpump i mean they're you know like outside the people who have been able to transition to the valley like it's a scary thing you know like it's kind of like you hear it all the time with like professional athletes like when they retire oh they retire and they're 30 years old you know and they have the rest of their life and maybe

some of them are lucky enough to make millions but like even the people who make millions they were spending millions too. And then all of a sudden, like, their entire life changes were like what they were making and what they were spending. And they have to change their spending because what they're, it's, it's, it's, it's, and honestly, I mean, it's a very serious thing that a lot of people in that space truly struggle with. And like in a reality TV world where those opportunities are not normal and they're disproportionate to like what most people make in their jobs. And when that, and that can abruptly end. You know, it's, such a, what have you done for me lately business in Hollywood? And the pressure is very real. And

yeah, it's, it's fascinating. I was watching this interview with, like, Sue Bird one time, who's like a basketball player. And she was like, yeah, she had retired. And she was like, athletes died twice. You have like the death, your first death, which is when you retire. And then when you die. Also, like, she had a relationship with like another athlete. And when, and they both had retired. And they ended up breaking up. They're amicable. good terms and stuff, but like they talked a lot about of just like in retirement when you're in such a high pressure environment with each other of just going when you leave that and then you have this whole other aspect of this relationship and also your identity that you then have to

rediscover. I imagine that's like a really similar to Kyle and Amanda. Yeah. Maybe our reality TV stars just professional athletes in a different font. I'm asking you too. Honestly, kind of like. Like the idea of retiring, retiring, you know. There are similarities between like the life cycle. Yeah. What if you're both? Like a West Wilson, perhaps. Is he a professional athlete?

He was a football player for a minute there. In college. Does that not count? Well, no, it's literally not professional. Professional athletes. I'm sorry, they do make really good reality. I'm just saying, like, by the definition of the N-C-A-A, you know, you, I'm just saying. I'm just trying to transition here.

Well, you know, we're getting into weeds because now college can make, you. Yeah, this is pre. Pre. Yeah, that's fair. What is it called the? He was also D3. Okay. My apologies.

I gave you too much credit, West Wilson. Yeah. Let's not pretend that West Wilson was getting drafted. But the reason why this brought this, I brought this up is because speaking of somebody who didn't make it in football and also obviously didn't make it on the next season of Summerhouse, he's trying very hard to get his name still talked about. So it would appear because it was Jesse Solomon. sold out New York show last week.

And on the exact same night that they're filming, Summer House and his show. It was at the Bowery. At the Bowery something. In New York City, West Wilson decides to post for the first time in God knows how long on his Instagram a carousel. An inside carousel is a photo of West and Jesse sitting on his couch, obviously, after like a night out or whatever, just keying it up. And the internet went wild. They were like, how could you? How could you forget?

how could you be friends with, so much so that it caused Jesse to comment on West Post and say that this was an old photo before the statement. Oh my gosh. And then allegedly, I don't know if it was West,

I doubt it was Jesse, but the comment got deleted. Okay. Well, who deleted the comet is such a big part. I just don't know. If Jesse felt the need to post it, I don't know why he would

and know that people are going to see it and that traction happened, I don't know that he was like, you know what, now that there's articles about it, let me delete this. I can, that actually seems more believable. Then West being like, this is embarrassing. Let me delete this comment.

Yeah. Yeah. Huh. I'm not saying that's what happened. Okay. But it's more believable because I think male relationships, they are, are, they tend to move on quicker. Sometimes they just kind of can let things go. You guys don't harp on a friend breakup?

Yeah. I mean, like, you know. And I think it's a little savage of the way West posted that, but it would be more believable that West posted that and the internet reacted the way it did. And then Jesse felt a certain way and a little maybe scared about like reactions and went to the comments quickly and felt a little silly because I think we all know.

And Jesse's essentially said this, that Jesse plans on being friends with West whenever the internet allows it. Like he wants to, I think secretly they're probably closer than he leads on. He did make a follow-up TikTok. That said, we're all tired of talking about it. Yeah, he's tired of talking about it. He's not tired of, he's not tired of, he's not tired of, he didn't say I'm done with Jesse. And every, like, even in the city reunion, people who are like, don't even aren't, it's like when they ask Danielle, like, have you seen West Wilson?

I will never talk. It's like, everyone's so quick to be like, I will never talk to this man ever. Like, you know. Yeah, you will. Well, I don't even know if some of them are friends. But like, I think Jesse has every intention of being friends. And he probably is friends with West right now. he's just not talking about it.

Oh, I hope not. It would be real savage for West to delete Jesse's comment because Jesse, because West wants to think that's, and plus the gig's already up. It's like if West deleted the comment, like he's not deleting the fact that people saw the comment. So what's the purpose of West deleting that comment? If he did, that would be real dirty because that makes it seem like he deliberately wanted people to think that Jesse and West were hanging out when maybe they weren't yet.

Yeah, but that makes sense. Because he posted it. And also, if you want to talk about deleting and reposting, West also posted for Amanda's birthday with a really face-apped photo. I guess it's an inside joke, whatever. But the first post- It's a bad inside joke. Literally. The first post said HBD Homegirl at Amanda Batula, which he deleted and then reposted with HBD twin at Amanda Batula. And if then he posted what the meaning of twin is, which is together, we ignore negativity.

If I had blown up my entire life for a man to get into a man to get into a relationship with him, and the best he could give me was maybe Ily and HBD twin, I'm taking myself out back. I don't know. I think they can do no right right now. It's like, whatever. Yeah, here's my. To that point. I just posting FaceTune photos of each other where you objectively look much hotter. in those is a choice.

I don't know. Choice. It's like lying about your height on a dating app. Or accepting the bare minimum after you expected the world out of a marriage. It's just like the mentality

I just don't understand. I don't think Amanda understands her choices. I don't think she does. But Wes can literally get away with doing absolutely nothing. There's more rumors about him than there were about Kyle

and the longevity of their marriage. And yet you're upset with Kyle for drinking and going out of the time. West is going out all the time. Apparently there's rumors of cheating and friends that he can't talk to anymore. And then for, your birthday after all of this

bullshit, you get HBD Homegirl, scratch that HBD twin. I'm going to put myself out there and say that I think Jesse deleted that comment and I think someday we will find out the truth. I don't think we're going to find out any time soon, but someday Andy will continue to do his job and at the right time, this

question will be asked. I'm going to go to call she in bed right now. That it was Jesse who deleted it, not West. My theory is because West has said things about him being on pause essentially where people are like, we don't want you back. That I think that he intentionally

posted that in his carousel to make it look like they're hanging out because he wanted while they're filming Summerhouse that night at Jesse's show to be a topic of conversation. Because I think he wants their name to be coming up as much as possible during this season of Summerhouse to prove that you need them

to come back for the next season. But the thing is that's just... It's an interesting theory. I don't... We'll find out someday. Yeah. Finally. Nick of Nickelandria Former Nickelandria No longer follows the evil David David and by evil

That's not like literally disgusting evil Horrendous Do you feel We talked about this on Tuesday's episode Are you, do you feel safe enough To acknowledge that maybe you didn't really believe In that relationship? Do I feel safe enough to acknowledge? Because before it was like there was like a secret club of people

Like in by a secret club I mean like most of the world Who was afraid to say anything Because of the Nickelandria stands coming for their throat Oh, no, I don't think I was ever scared. I was just kind of like, in my head, I just think it makes sense. It was like, if you stay together for a year, keep it low-key, show up at a couple events, like, it's good for business. So I'm like, I don't really have a strong opinion either way.

I'm like, whether you guys were really together and loved each other or it became a business decision, by all means, get your bag. Well, it's time to talk a little dancing because right now we are looking for our next Dancing with the Stars pro, and we have Stephanie Sosa, the sister of Ezra Sosa, who is already a pro, and one of the newer pros and one of the more popular pros, and his sister is competing for her opportunity to join her brother on next season of Dancing with the Stars. And we have heard to talk about her recent shenanigans. Is it Fight Club, or is it competing with a chance of Dancing with the Stars?

We'll find out next with Stephanie Sosa. Stephanie, welcome to the show. Aye, thank you for having me. We're so excited to have you. So many things to talk about. But what a fun show. We love that Dancing with the Stars has really found it's like, I'm jealous as someone who a long time ago was on Dancing with the Stars. I wish.

You're a part of the Golden Era? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good time to be a part of it. It's like a little looser now. It's a little more modern, you know, like the, you know, the TikToks and things. It's like, you're incorporating more like modern dancing back in the day. It was just like fucking just ballroom.

And then, like, you know, a little stuffy. Oh. You know, I'm envious. But we're very excited to have you. I'm really curious if, I know you can't tell us if you, if you want at all. But we're reading for you though. I knew you were going to try to get out of me. Like, prepare.

Stay strong. Your brother, obviously, famously, is a part of the show. And he's a very popular part of the show. Yes. Did you feel like you had any advantages? And more importantly, did you feel like your peers that you were competing against almost felt like, you know, were acting as if, like, like, oh, maybe you had an unfair advantage

because of who your brother was? Or, like, how did that affect how you kind of felt welcomed or how you interacted with your peers? Yeah, going to the competition, I really want to just prove myself, you know, because I know I was my brother and I just wanted to go and show them, like,

who I was as a dancer and a person. I did feel like there was sort of an advantage because, you know, I was as a sister, but also, like, I really wanted to prove myself. And just from my experience on Troop Prior, I kind of knew what the show was looking for. So I think in that way, I had an advantage. But I also didn't know what challenges we were going to do.

I didn't know that Shirley Ballas was going to be a judge. Like, that's terrifying because she's like the queen of Latin. So definitely went in just like ready to prove myself if anything. I just really wanted to earn a spot on the show. And is the troop, do they have like their own little world in messing with the stars? Like is there like drama within the troop that the fans aren't often made aware of or? You're such a muscle. You're trying to get all the tea.

No, honestly, I had the best time when I was on troop. Like, we had a little squad going, and I don't know about this season's troop, but I definitely had the best time. I was just, like, dancing on TV and just, like, living my best life. When did you start dancing? I started when I was seven. Oh, wow. Okay.

And then did you and your brother, like, start together, or did he get into it and then you followed him his footsteps? So basically, we were, like, like, this growing up. And whatever I did, he had to do. So I started doing ballet and he saw me in ballet class and was like, I want to do that. And then ever since then we just been like, we stuck to it together. So, yeah. Were you a little envious or jealous of Ezra?

Yeah, when he obviously took off or was it just more inspiration? No, I was so proud of him because like we grew up in like a really hard situation. Just being able to see him thrive and be authentically himself. He never had that growing up. Like he never felt safe enough to do that. So seeing him do that was just so inspiring for me. And yeah, I feel like our careers help each other as well. Like, you know, I give him advice on things like vice versa.

And yeah, I'm like proud of him. And you were you were dancing on Broadway that year, right? When he went to Dancing with the Stars as a pro. Is that right? Yeah, I was we didn't, I didn't off Broadway show. Well, it wasn't off Broadway. It was like pre-Broadway. It was like a little run.

And yeah, it was really fun. Yeah. So I feel like great things were happening for both of you at the same time, just differently. Yeah. I'm always fascinated by it from from the dancer standpoint because not only do you guys have to dance as well as you do, the choreography is I'm always fascinated with in terms of like how each week you guys have to come up with the choreography that the stars do. Like do you find that enjoyable or do what is more difficult for you like the performance of the dances or coming up with the choreography for the dances? Honestly, I will say coming up with the choreography can be a little scary sometimes because you are going to. going to be in front of TV and it's very different than choreographing on stage.

But yeah, I sometimes feel like I get a little look at when I perform because I'm like, oh my gosh, like this is crazy. Like we're on television. But yeah, choreography can be a little hard. I will say the nails are on fleek though. Like they are so cute, but that would be a lot to have coming into an eyeball. I mean, really the whole storyline of this obviously accident that happened, I think really leans into an amazing way, like almost like as if this competition.

has gotten really, really, like physically violent. But so like, let's just start with what actually happened, uh, with terms of this accident where, you know, because of your left hook. Oh my God. Um, you,

you, you, you basically got someone sent home because they had a concussion. That was really hard for me. I mean, I grew up, like I know Natalie personally, we came from the same dance studio and it just broke my heart that she left

the competition early, you know, and it, I definitely, like it was really hard week for me because I just felt like horrible and she's such a beautiful dancer in person so it was really it was really hard for me but what was that conversation like with Natalie when you found out that she couldn't no longer compete because she had like an honest serious injury and concussion like what I mean that must be very difficult to for a friendship to

to get through it because I imagine just like you you really hope to win this I mean to be a part of a pro on dancing with the stars, it must be a very exciting and very cool opportunity. And regardless of it being an accident, like she no longer was able to compete. So how did you guys as friends work through that challenge? I did go up to her and chuck on her. And honestly, I just was like crying to her

and I was just telling her how sorry I was because I felt so bad. Like I know how hard she's worked to be there. You know, we all worked really hard. So I was just, yeah, I broke my heart. And I'm just like sending her so much love. And you guys are still cool? Yeah.

Oh, that's good. We actually worked together before the show. Okay. Yeah, she's like a little sis. That's awesome. So cute. What would it mean to you to become a pro? Wow.

That would mean like everything to me. You know, growing up, my family sacrificed a lot for us to dance. And all of the sacrifices that my parents made and like we went through so much and it just be a dream come true. I mean, as you're always dreamed of like being on dancing with stars together. We used to like sit down as a family and watch it. And then we'd be like, Ma and Azra, like, that's going to be us. That's going to be us doing it.

That's crazy. So it's like so crazy that like we did get to live out a little bit of that dream like with me on Troop and him as like first year being a pro. Like that year was like so surreal for me and my family. And yeah. Wow. If you were to become a pro, do you have a celebrity in mind that would be like your dream partner? Wait, do we know the next, we know the next cast, right?

No, we only know a few. I think we know a few, right? Not everybody. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My dream would be Ryan Gosling. That's a great. That's a great.

No, because he like was amazing in La La La Land. And I know he has such great charisma. And I feel like he'd be so fun to work with. And we would just create magic. And like, we just are very opposite. And I'm like, oh, that would be a dream. And I love actors. So I'm like, they take direction.

Is there a reality TV personality that may have a better chance of ending up on dancing with the stars? They've been on before. Really? I don't know. Perhaps me. Honestly, I would. No, that's not where I was going. He's just saying from our universe.

They're not having you finished in the middle of the pack competition. All-Star. All-Star Light. You should come back. Dance with Ezra and come back. I would love to. I would dance with anyone. Mostly because, like, and I've said this before, like, I would have more fun.

It was just so nerve-wracking. It's so stressful when you're in that environment. And I had one side, I went far enough that once I got eliminated, they, they kept bringing me back because towards obviously the end of the season, they kind of have to fill out a whole show. And then they had me redo some of my better dances. And those were like way more fun because there was no pressure. And my performance was way better. And I wish I brought, I wish I had the confidence and the kind of carefree attitude once I was eliminated. That would be fun to redo. But sadly, my star has. I need to go back and see your your dances. It was okay. I did okay. I did fine. I didn't embarrass myself. She's like, yeah. Is that the season where you brought other people on, like from the Bachelor world? Or was that Joe? Didn't Joe do, were you on with Joe? I did dance with Joe. Okay, but he was on it, right? Yeah. Okay.

They brought me, that's right. So you've been on a couple times. Fair enough. Okay. I thought maybe that was your season. I didn't watch that. No, that was Joe. Okay, cool. They did not. It, again, it wasn't quite. as dynamic back then. It was pretty straightforward. Yeah, I feel like it's very popular now. Yeah. Yeah.

But going back to Nick's original question, do you have a reality TV star you would like to be paired with? That's such a good question. I have my favorites that I would like to see other people paired with. Ooh, okay. I love Kenzie. I think she would be perfect for the show. She'd be good.

She's going to have to wait at least a year. She'd be doing those splits every dance. She does be love it. I would support that. Because honestly, even her dance in the villa was kind of tea. Her opening. Yeah. And her voice.

I was like, oh, she's a singer. You know, every now and then, dance with the stars, loves the cast of villain. Um, they love to bring maybe someone who's,

you know, trying to bounce back. Uh, are you familiar with the name West Wilson? No. Oh. If you, I don't really,

like, I'm not in the loop with the love shows. I need to be more in the loop with that. What about Ace from Love Island? Did you watch that season? Oh, yeah. You know, whoever it is,

but if you got cast it with someone and they were like, and then all of the same, you went online, like, yo, do you know who this is? And they're like, everyone hates them. You know,

and, you know, how would, how do you think you would, would you enjoy that challenge to try to like get the, you know, because everyone has, you know, in reality TV, no one's as bad or as good as they come across. They're all just humans. So like, would that, would you enjoy that challenge to try to make the world see this person in a better light through your choreography?

Or would that be nerve-wracking to feel that pressure of, you know, the person you're dancing with has, has an army of haters. online. You know, I feel like dance is beautiful because it does bring out the best in people. And I would love to have one of the boys from this past season because they did get a lot of heat like Casey. I would love to dance with him and just like, I don't know, be able to see a side, like bring out a side of him that's like, you know, that's like truly authentically himself,

you know? I would, I feel like that would be like fun to do. Okay. Well, maybe Nick. So Nick could do it. I was thinking Tom Sandal. He's never done it. He's never done it. I don't think so. Oh, that rihanna did it. Guys, I don't know these people. That's okay. That's okay. We're like picturing them with you. No.

I'm like, I love it. I don't know. I need to get a better hobby. Your mental health must be great. I watched the season because it was really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Benji and Selena recently have had some feelings about. Oh, Nina.

Yeah. What has it been like for you to be working with her? Yeah, it's funny because actually she was one of the girls I was closest to in the house. We were roommates. And yeah, I definitely felt like it was hard to. to see all of that happen. Like, my experience with her was very different. She definitely had my back a lot of the time.

And I don't know, can't speak to, like, how she was with other people. But with me, she was really sweet. So I love that. So filming the show, I mean, you've got competitions. You've got partner group work, the whole thing. But what, and obviously living together, what is the most difficult part of that process for you? That's so hard.

I'd probably not getting in my head. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's just like the stakes are so high. I've done all of like the work to get to this point So I think just not getting in my head was really hard I'm gonna say as a dancer I feel like you guys are so

You know obviously in your body But also it's like there's so much rigorous work And I feel like perfectionism and whatnot in Competition I'm just like how do you guys stay friendly with each other And how do you not compare and and you know what I mean Like take things personally in such a competitive state Yeah it's hard because dance is very competitive and the stakes were very high.

But I think just like remembering that all of us had something unique that we were bringing to the table. And it's just a matter of the judges being like, okay, who is it that we see as a pro? And we were there to grow and learn and really like prove that we could handle the stress, handle all these challenges because that's like what it's like on the show as a pro. Like that stress, all of that, like is part of it. And you grew up in Salt Lake City, right? Yes.

And I feel like dance culture is huge there. And there's so many people on Dancing with the Stars that are from. Some Salt Lake, right? Majority of the pros are from my dance studio, Center Stage Performing Arts in Utah. Wow. It must be intense there. Yeah, like it was intense, but in the best way.

Like, it made me the dancer. Are there, like, pictures of, like, dancing with the stars' performances, like hanging on the walls? Yeah. There's, like, baby Jenna on the wall. Baby Whitney, like Lindsay, Riley. I grew up dancing with Riley and Brindley Arnold, like, another one of her sisters and Jensen.

So it's just crazy. We're all connected. We all grew up in the same place and like wanting the same things. Right. God forbid you don't win. Will you still want to be a part of the troop or will it be a little difficult to, you know, show up to dancing with the stars and not be the pro that you wanted to be? Or will you just kind of be like, you know what? Just in another step and maybe a longer process to fulfill your dream.

Yeah. If I don't win, I would love to still be a part of the show in any way. It's like my dream to be on that show. And when I did troop, it was like the biggest dream come true for me. And I do feel like me and Ezra just like meant to work together. Like we just grew up doing this together. And, you know, and if they, you know, God forbid I'm not a part of any of it, then like just continuing my journey and growing.

Because like I grew so much from last year. Even like doing next pro, I just felt like even the past two weeks I've grown, I grew so much as a person, as a dancer. And I just want to see how far I can go. And like whatever's meant to happen. for me will, you know, be my path. That's awesome. What advice has your brother giving you?

And then how has he helped you throughout this competition? You know, he's giving me like, you know, choreographic advice, like all that stuff. But like at the end of the day, he's like, just please be yourself. Because like you, he's always like, you're such a beautiful person. And he just wants me to shine and not to get in my head because I like tend to get in my head a lot. Yeah. I was just going to say to back up as for there, it's like your energy is so beautiful.

And I honestly think whatever opportunities are coming for you, it's going to be amazing. So, yeah. And you're a beautiful dam. answer. So thank you. It'll all work out. Thank you. Totally. Speaking of opportunities, I just was curious how it was to dance with bad bunny at the Super Bowl halftime. Oh my gosh. Yes. Wow. That was like, okay, dance for bad bunny was a dream come true, especially being Latina and just being a part of something so monumental, part of history. And yeah, I remember when I got the call for that, I just like cried for like

an hour because I was like, sorry, it was like my dream job to like be a part of something so special representing my community. And like I never thought it would have a the opportunity growing up. So like, it just was really cool for me to like be a part of that. That's amazing. Half-time show. Yeah. I was iconic.

Iconic. By the way. Do you play it every day? I would. No, honestly, sometimes when I'm feeling down, I'll play bad bunny. I love that. I was like I did that. Don't get your hands up.

But yeah. Wow. That's amazing. Well, we're excited to see how the season ends up and definitely rooting for you. Thank you. I think it would very cool to have a brother and sister Have we had a brother and sister? I know we've had sisters and we've had brothers.

We've had Derek and Julian. Derek and Julia. They're so iconic. They're so cool. Sorry you too. I forgot about you, Derek. Yeah. The Huffel Puffs.

Oh, I'm not. No. Well, good luck the rest of the way. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming and give us a chance to get a little insight on this very fun new show that I think everyone's really enjoying. And if nothing else, like, that is so cool to be a part of a new hit show on Hulu. And it sounds like Hulu's really fun, something really exciting.

And I think it's really cool that dancing with the stars community is kind of building this universe that I think is going to make the show Dancing with the Stars. And obviously, your new show be around for a long time. And that's really fun to see. So congratulations on just all your success so far. And I imagine you have a lot more success coming your way. regardless of what happens with this competition, but it's really cool to see

and congratulations on everything. Thank you so much, guys. Congratulations. Thank you for coming. Yay. Well, I hope she wins. Me too. Me too.

She seems awesome. She's so sweet. They're not going to let her win because of Ezra. Of Ezra. But, I mean, I feel like this goes against like a lot of the arguments people have about Nepo babies.

Like, she's putting in, you know, I'm pro-Nepo baby. But she's not really a Nepo baby. She's not. It's just like she's also talented. And it happens to be related. Yeah. She just comes from a talented family.

And she's already, I thought that when they cast her on the show is like she's already been in the troupe, which I feel like is an advantage. But I'm like, it would be so unfair to not give her the chance to do the show because she earned her spot in the troop. And that in itself, like they work so hard. It's crazy. Win or lose? I feel like she's got a future as a pro.

I have a theory. Actually, I have a theory. I have like a fan fiction theory for myself. I want her to get cast in a musical the same way like footloose happened. and have her become a breakout star and then she comes back on Dancing with the Stars as a star, not a pro, and dances with Ezra. That's my dream for her.

Except that... She would win so easily. No, she wouldn't, though. She wouldn't. I guess the audience votes America. Well, only because so much about Dancing with the Stars, people want to see... She would go really far because she's so good,

but eventually they do love a... An underdog. And it was, like, crazy and fun to see Joey be... so good and get better and better throughout like, you know, or in Dylan and the people you're like, oh my God. Yeah. True. I'm just kind of like, she already was on the troop.

She did the show. Just give her the, give her the slot. You know what I mean? Like she's, she's for next season. No, but what it could be more like, it could be more, if she doesn't win, it could be, then she gets casted in some show or video or whatever. And almost like Jennifer Hudson, right? famously didn't win

American Idol. Still mad at you, Simon Cowell. But then went on to like win an Oscar and I think she went to all of them. Has she like got on Igott or something? She's close to it. If not. So close.

Yeah. So she could like go not if she doesn't win and then come back as a pro even more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then she'd have even more.

Or she wins. Which wouldn't also. Correct the record. By the way, she did. She does have an egot. Exactly. doesn't have any guy. Exactly.

Isn't that I'm wondering? Wasn't she like the third runner up or something for American Idol? She was sixth place. Yeah. Sixth place? Famously Simon Cowell was stupid. He lost to Fantasia who, you know. Who?

Exactly. Fantasia. Yeah. I love Fantasia. I love her. This is no. She was tallies. Six place and she, oh my God.

But it's just like Jayhud, you know. How do you say no to Jayhud? That's just star quality. It's better when you don't win on some of those shows. Like for their careers. Yeah. So maybe this will be, maybe this will be the same. Well, it's a really fun show, and if you're not watching it, and you should be.

It's light, it's fun. They're telling a dancing with the star story. They're really creating a universe in the best possible way. Everyone's so talented. You get to see the behind the scenes of what it takes to be a pro, how competitive the dance world is. And there's fighting. Yeah. Which is great.

All right, well, up next, we have Jazzy Collins. She is a casting director in this business of reality TV. and like we said before the show, she has experienced casting the Traders, Love Island, The Bachelor, A Circle, and some other shows, but she is with us to talk all the inside baseball of what it's like to be a casting director,

what it takes to be casted on these types of shows, all the intricacies of casting and what they're looking for. She also has a fun opinion on Nicolandria, which I love. Up next, Jazzy Collins. Our pets have a way of keeping life interesting, with unexpected vet visits.

Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. The ASPCA takes some financial stress out of eligible vet care. The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program offers customizable accident and illness plans that fit your budget, your lifestyle, and even your pet's particular quarks. Because let's be honest, vet bills can add up fast. The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance has been around for almost 30 years and that's covered over one million pets. And when it's time to submit a claim, it's easy.

Just use the app and receive reimbursement for eligible vet bills directly. into your bank account. So you can get back to focusing on what really matters your pet. We discovered the ASPCA after both Jeff and Steve got into some food that they shouldn't have and that required us to take them in a very late night to the pet emergency hospital. And the only thing that was scarier than worrying about their health in that moment was getting the vet bill. And that's what prompted us to check out the ASPCA. And boy, are we glad that we did? To explore coverage for you in your family, visit ASPCA pet insurance.com slash VIAL. That's ASPCA pet insurance.com. slash V-I-AL. Again, that's ASPCA, petinsurance.com slash VI-A-L. This is a paid advertisement.

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Thank you. Very excited to have you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. You reminded me that we met briefly at an event, but our paths have, it's almost shockingly that we never really met met, met until this moment. But for those of you, and we obviously introduced Jazzy already, but you're like a reality TV casting extraordinaire. Thank you. Can you tell our audience a little bit about your resume?

It's a long resume. For all of their favorite reality TV shows that you have worked on are a better part of. Yes, I've worked on Love Island Season 2. I've done Bachelor and Bachelorette. I started with Rachel Lindsay season, ended up until Peter's season. And then I also worked on The Circle. I've worked on Traders. I worked on Family or Fiance for Oprah Winfrey Network.

I'm doing probably all of the shows that you enjoyed to watch at some point, whether you're sitting on the couch, drinking some wine, or the folks that are just, like, looking from a distance. And, like, maybe I'll watch that show. I probably worked on it. And, like, some could say that you are one of the most sought-after gatekeepers because, like, being a reality TV star has really shot up the list in terms of, like, dream jobs out there.

We were talking last episode about how influencing is now a college degree, which is a another topic in itself. But, you know, the only reason I am even considered an influencer, which is like just a weird, weird bucket to put myself in, but it's solely based off of my time on reality TV. And it is the easiest path in terms of getting an influencing career. And so I'm sure there's a lot of people listening, even just with great interest of like,

hopefully you can give them some tips and tricks and how to get on their favorite reality TV show. But obviously, we would love to ask. ask you some BTS and about like what what kind of goes in the mindset of casting and I guess how you know how involved is casting throughout you know where does casting start and stop in terms of the production of it all I mean there's so many questions but where do we want to start I get I guess my first question would be like what do you look at someone for and think oh my god they're going to make great TV just the way they carry themselves you can see that when you walk

into a Whole Foods or a restaurant and they just have like that, that spark that shine. And you're like, who is this person? I want to know a little bit more about them. And then from there, you can usually ask them questions or talking to them and you realize you're like, oh, this person would probably be great for television. And you kind of go from there. But every show is different. You've got to treat it almost like, you know, a different beast every time, whether it's a competition show, you're going to looking for those competitor types, looking for people that are like in it to win it. Or if you're, you're going to be a different beast every time, whether it's a competition show, you're going to looking for like a dating show, those people that are like,

ready to put themselves out there and like be excited about it. And also good looking. That's important. Well, let's start and focus on the dating shows, which is obviously something Susie and I know a lot about. I am curious because with Love Island being kind of the hot show right now and the most popular love competition show out there, and it used to be The Bachelor.

And we come from kind of the Bachelor world, and yet we also are just huge Love Island fans. I'm curious from someone who's worked on both shows, what are the differences and similarities between how you guys go about casting those two respective shows? That is a very good question. Bachelor, there was just so many people that were applying for that show. So the beauty of it, it was almost just like going through submissions and then realizing what are we missing?

What holes do we need to fill? and then it's based on obviously diversity or, you know, just background, jobs, are they actually going to be compatible with this bachelor or bachelor's at? That's where we usually were looking for on that side. But in terms of Love Island,

a lot of it you have to actually like find these people. A lot of people will apply. I worked on season two, but season two, no one was really interested in that show. So we were actually on social media, on Instagram, scrolling through people and seeing if they would be a, fit based on like obviously what they looked like but then I would talk to them and have conversations

with them and are they actually looking to find love and put themselves out there for a summer. Also, the time commitments for both shows are very long. So we lose people because of that. Like if you are like, hey, can you give up four to six weeks of your life, you know, especially for Love Island. Some people don't even make the show because they're just being held to be a hopefully a bombshell or something and they might sit there for like three weeks. and not end up on the show. And you're like, oh, well, so sorry. So sorry.

But also are you open to doing that and trying that? And Bachelor, you already know. Like, once you get out that limo, you're on the show, right? So it's a very, very different beast for both. But at the same time, you want those similar types. You still want people that are excited to be on TV and excited to date on television. But also, are you ready for marriage? Probably Bachelor.

Are you not ready for marriage? Love Island. So we had an appeal on who wrote a really cool book about the kind of the oral history of Love Island. And she talked about even though Love Island is successful, it is now. And it sounds like they're getting the applications. That Bachelor was so used to getting. But even despite so many applications, they're still, when it comes to casting, the majority of their casting, you know, still comes from you going online. looking at Instagrams is that

still yes and is the reason for that because obviously is it like some of the people who apply never really had a chance to begin with or what is that? No, I wouldn't say that. I think there's plenty of people that have applied for a show and they'll actually make the show. It's just they might not have the right look. They might not have the availability. They end up in a relationship while you're casting it. So it could be just a multitude of reasons why. So I remember, you know, when I was cast on The Bachelor, I remember, and it's a story that me and producers will joke and reflect on. But my understanding of kind of my casting kind of journey was casting really advocated for me.

And then like one of the producers, she just happened to be the one in charge, really liked me. But like the rest of the producers were not fucking with me. Really? Do you knew that or they told you that after? Tell me that after. Okay. Yeah. And their logic was at the time I was in my early 30s, I had like a job job.

And they're just like this guy's going to be, he's kind of like too old and probably too safe. And he's just not going to be as messy as, you know, a 24-year-old bartender who's like not worried about what his employer is going to, you know, think when he, we get him to do some crazy shit. Right. And then after, you know, talking to people in production, you know, especially on Bachelor,

it was just like, I mean, there's like 30, 40 producers. So many people. And like everyone has an opinion. So I'm curious for you, the question to you is who are maybe a couple people that you had to advocate for them

against maybe the opinions of some producers who are like, I don't know, I'm not seeing it. And you ended up being correct. Yes. A really good example of that was Lee for the circle. I don't know if you watched the circle.

I think that was season two, I believe. Which one was Lee? Lee was the older gentleman that was on the circle. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. The show skews millennial Gen Z, very young, fresh, excitable energy. And I interviewed Lee and I loved him. I was like something about him feels like a warm hug. And I really want to see him on this show.

And it's nice to see older people on a show. I think we always are like, we need someone that's hot in 20 to 28, but I was like, there's a whole demographic that you were missing. And then you could also start getting them to watch because if they see someone that looks like them, they're more likely to watch. Lee was that person. And then literally ever since then, they started having more older types onto the show.

Do you think that sometimes, obviously we're watching reality TV, especially these love competition shows a lot of the times for hot people? Yeah. Do you think that there's a part of that that almost keeps reality TV from being like as quote unquote real as it could be from having me not like ugly people more just like normal people like you know every day I was going to say. Well maybe like I'm curiously you know what I mean. You know what I mean. I think that's why there's like love is blind now.

I think that feels before that year. Are you saying there are only on Love's One? Whoa. No. Well, it's not Love Island. You know what I'm not? There's very different types of people that go on the show. 70s hot versus C.W.

There's also age of attraction now, right? Where you have, you know, older folks that are on the show and they're dating and then you also have the younger. You get the mix. I think people are realizing that, like, dating can go beyond the hot 20-year-olds. And people all, you know, We'll get invested and be excited about it. So why not have those and explore those journeys? So there's just different shows for that.

Love Island is not going to be the show where we're going to watch 40-year-old singles, unfortunately. It could be. I don't need to see them pitting Sardis. What was it? We need to see people now. Sunset Island or something? Yeah, we were like, oh, that's cute. Yeah, we were like, give us a little like golden era of Love Island.

Pickybacking off of Mary's question, I guess, in Kempacking. casting, how do you find the balance between real and aspirational, right? Because, you know, you with reality TV, we want it to feel authentic and real, but at the same time, you want it to feel aspirational. You want, you want people, that's why we love, you know, what makes these shows popular, especially like a Love Island, like these, you know, it's a whole parissocial, you know, like these people have become Sims, you know, they're, there are these entities that we watch and these fans will literally see themselves or attach some kind of like connective tissue, which is what makes them so passionate about these people.

It also helps that they're watching them like five days a week, right? More than any other show out there where, I mean, besides like Big Brother is probably the closest where you get to see people and you can actually watch them live on, you know, have those live cams. But yeah, to answer your question, I think people are. are open to, I would say a lot of people are really interested in seeing folks that look like themselves, folks that are, you know, from your hometown. So when you're casting, it's really, really important to not just pick from the stereotypical Florida, Miami types, the New York,

the L.A. It's like get those Midwest, get the Southern folks that are also watching this show. and when you're talking to them, you know if they are actually in it to do it and not just doing it to be a content creator. It's so easy to spot it. It's the way they talk. It's the specific sound bites that they're giving you and they're saying,

I just want to be the villain. I want to be this. You know that they're just trying to be on TV to get 100,000 followers. You could spot it and every single casting director can spot it. From now, especially now, It's even worse. Like, people are like, you, I want to make sure that you hear what's coming from my mouth and know that I want to be on TV.

And people have watched videos on it. They have watched, you know, interviews like myself that are doing it. Oh, they really want to see this type of person. I'm going to be that person. Yeah. No, we can see right through it. We know who you are instantly. Do you have, like, I always thought the power dynamic of both casting directors and producers is so interesting.

I don't think that I would have it in me to know that somebody is a little piece of shit and be like, I'm going to put you on TV and make you famous. But like that is a big part of what you do. You have to recognize this person sucks. They are the worst. They're so annoying. They rub me the wrong way. I'm going to get, I'm going to platform them.

Put them on a show and they're going to be a great villain or they're going to be iconic TV. But like, to me, I'm like, I would not have it in me to be like, oh, yeah, like this person drives me nuts. Let's put him on a show. Do you ever feel like dissonance with that for yourself or you're like, this sucks. I got to put this girl on. But she is damn good. I mean, there's a balance there. I wouldn't say like I look at someone.

I'm like, I can't stand them. They can't be on TV. I look at it as like a big puzzle. I'm like, okay, based on this person's personality, I think this person would be good or this person would rub them the wrong way. And if I don't frame it that way, absolutely I would go crazy. Yeah. Interesting. When you're when you're kind of doing that puzzle, are you looking for someone like a villain archetype? Like are you casting for a villain necessarily? I never cast for a villain. No. They always just come. I guess are you seeing that in the interview then? I see it the way, but it's not like to the point where it's like, I'm going to be the villain. It's just the way they respond to their answers. Villains don't know their villains. Villains don't know their. Crystal, I did not know if she was.

going to be a villain on The Bachelor at all for Ari's season. She, yes, a lot of people, when she came into her interview, she told me this very, very upsetting story about her family and, you know, who she wants to be and why love is so important to her. And it was so sweet. But I knew immediately that she was a character because the way she came into the interview. But wouldn't you, I mean, you would acknowledge that when it comes to, especially like the Bachelor or Love Island, like the definition of a villain is not, like, it's, you can make a villain out of essentially anyone

and all you have to do is have a little bit of sarcastic humor I guess and a big mouth big mouth and a willingness to react honestly and not necessarily conform

to the vibe of the house or the group and that's really all it that's true yeah it's the outsider yeah I mean because usually like a confident outsider yeah because I would think most times especially in bachelor those are your villains

right they're actually some of my favorite people are the villains because outside of the show they're they they're the same person yeah you're like oh you know they're not the person who's like even like even the genuine ones are they're all safe it's like they're safe yeah they're like all the things with what the producers thought i was going to be when they didn't want to cast me which is like risk adverse and just like you know what i don't i'll just keep that to myself uh very rarely do you get someone like I'm curious do you remember when you guys casted Luke Parker for Hannah Brown season oh my god no I don't think I was in the office that day okay because that man he was a kid after that one would you have cast Luke Parker because he was truly an

exceptional villain because there is an element of like he doesn't know he's the villain he doesn't know yeah he was like kind of a he was too short to realize that he was a villain but his villain is yeah why do you got to pick a pick him a short kid Leave the short king. His problem was not as hype. He was so like he was close. Some of the greatest men are short. That's true.

Just because also like some of the most evil men are tall. Yeah. We don't know. We don't know. Is this true? You have, was there anyone on Bachelor of Love Island that you were wrong about where you were like maybe not super, you weren't necessarily in their corner and they ended up popping? Oh, that's a good question. Hmm.

I mean, I'm pretty good about figuring it out. But you know what? Actually, one person I didn't know would make it so far was Eric Bigger on Rachel's season. I really liked him. He felt very different. He had that Baltimore accent. He was one of those types that walked through the door. His suit was too big.

Just kind of like uncomfortable, didn't really know. He's very earnest. Yeah, very earnest. And I was like, hmm, I don't know. But something about him I like, but I did not think he would make it all the way basically to the end. Wow. I thought he would probably get eliminated maybe like second rose ceremony. I have a question.

What kind of questions do you ask them in the interviews, like specifically? For Bachelor or just Love Island, just in general? Maybe just, is there a difference between the two? Yeah, I think all of the questions for Bachelor skew a little bit more like, marriage? Like, are you actually open, excited to possibly find the love of your life and put a ring on it at the end of the whole situation? But yeah, I would say for like Love Island, we're asking like previous relationships. What was that like for you? What's a red flag? What's a green flag for you? What's something that you're excited about? What's your type? I always ask that question. Some people are like, they're bad at answering the question. They're like, I'm kind of open to anything. I'm like, no, that's not true. What do you gravitate towards is then I follow up with of like, what type of men do you usually gravitate? What type of women do you gravitate towards? What's something that is a big pet peeve of yours? And all of these, this information I end up,

you know, kind of putting in my back pocket of like, okay, so I know this person really dislikes people that pick their nails. And then I'm talking to someone else and they're like, oh man, I have such a nervous tick. I, like, bite my nails all the time. And those are the things that you're like, okay, that might rub that person the wrong way, which could possibly cause conflict in the future. But also, they might not be a match. So it's always great.

But a lot of the times people will say one thing of, like, I'm really into tall, dark, and handsome, and then they find the complete opposite on the show, and they don't actually date that type. When you're casting for the Bachelor of the Bachelorette, how important is it that you guys are like, okay, we actually see compatibility with how, like, what is the number of contestants where you, like, we really see like five or six people that could actually work with this person

because I'm sure outside of that, there's people where you're like, they're definitely not going to work, but she's a great personality or whatever the vibe is. Like, how many people are your core people where you're like, we got to have at least this many people for it to kind of work. Yeah, because, yeah, you probably know the answer to this. Because when I was on it, I didn't know who The Bachelor of The Bachelor of Was when you

start casting that show. Interesting. So we were just cast in a wide net of people. And then like the last three weeks of casting, they were like, okay, so the bachelor is going to be this or the bachelor's going to be this. I think the one time where we had a bigger heads up, it was Rachel's season. And that was it. That was the only time where we were like. And that was specific and deliberate.

And they literally spoiled the season to make sure. Oh, really? Yeah, they spoiled. They spoiled, sorry. Oh, wow. Okay. Make sure that they had good casting. Yeah.

With the first black bachelor's up, they wanted to make sure that they were. Yeah. You're casting like, you're casting people because, you know, unfortunately in America, we have, you know, pretty racist people.

So like, we got to make sure that people are comfortable being on camera with the first black lead for a show that's predominantly white. Wow. That's wild. It's giving me chills. I was told that number is four.

Four? Yeah. Four real contenders. I was told from a very high up person that when they, because I think it's very typical that when they're casting for the show, they don't know who their lead is. They might have a couple ideas.

They might, you know, like, it really depends on the season. I think, like, for example, like, you kind of knew Ben Higgins was going to be the Bachelor. It wasn't a guarantee. Ries was a surprise. You know, mine was definitely a surprise at the time when it happened. They thought it was going to be a different person and, you know, they made it change last minute.

But I was told that they, if they can get the lead to really be into four, they're thrilled. Okay It's wild I didn't have that conversation We just did our best I guess I might move into

I just I just gonna do my best I think it's I think it's usually not more than two I feel like Okay I honestly wish

For my season Clayton liked us all You know I was more of a Clayton thing He loved us all Oh my gosh Working on Colton season Was very interesting

I forgot I worked on his season I think I blacked that What was interesting about it Just I think after the aftermath with the women having conversations with me

they were like I don't think he was ever into us and I was like hmm I'm actually curious from your perspective when you went on the show did you know

immediately who you were into yeah like week night one night one yeah yeah I feel like every every person that is on that show is the same thing I think night one

most leads narrow it down to three you know So then just holding on to people. I was actually thinking about this over the weekend. And it's crazy as it sounds, but like, you know, I knew, I knew how I was going to pick. Well, she, her first 101 was week three. Mm-hmm.

So that's like a weekend. Yeah. And I was just basically at that point just like, you know, I was nervous after night one. I was like, you know, again, it's like, and I'm sure most people are because there's one thing. It's like, imagine on a Friday night going to a bar and then a. a group of people are saying well in eight weeks you're expected to propose to one of these people

it's crazy I know it's like oh they all seem nice and lovely but I you know so you're so as a lead you go in hoping that after the limo you're what comes out are just a bunch of people you're like oh my you know and like

that's the premise of the show but the reality is it's like oh there's like a bunch of lovely nice people that I don't know like marriage It's a pressure cooker So like I made my decision Based off the fact that I was like you know There was a physical attraction

And then I was like she spoke two languages And I guess pretty cool And and she had an You know she seemed like classy Seemed I don't know You know and I was like Yeah I think that's it I'll do this yeah

That's so funny Your season was like the first season I ever watched Because before The Bachelor I never never watched that show before I worked there and yeah so I was like oh I wonder how this is yours but it's it is

it is crazy how that that works but yeah because you know they know that the environment is so intense and you're just going to develop feelings for if for the who's around you know so it's if you don't have a phone you don't have access

to the outside world and you only have these people around of course you're going to develop some sort of attraction or relationship. I always thought it was a miss by The Bachelor to not involve the lead and casting in a way. I agree with you. And for the very reason why if the goal was four, which seems like a crazy low number,

knowing that in reality they typically didn't get more than two. And usually it was only one. I think most cases the lead is like honestly just like there's one person where they're like, I think there's a thing here and it just grow. And then the whole season is them trying to explore that. But what happens, like, from the psychology standpoint, is the lead has so much pressure on knowing that this,

they kind of have to get engaged. Because, like, the one person who didn't was crucified by America. You know, so you're just like, no one's actually pressuring you. No one's telling you you have to do it, but you just feel the pressure. So you feel that pressure. you have one, like, there's one maybe kind of spark there. And then so, and then you're like, yeah, sure, I guess this is it.

And you kind of convince yourself that there's these, and then you spend the rest of the season trying to survive that relationship while also getting to know these other people and then making sure that they're also having a good time and trying to, you know, and it's like, it's a nightmare. Yeah. But the reason why I think it was a mistake is because the seasons that you, like Ben Higgins, for example. What do we remember most about that season? Clayton, you know, he was in love with two women. He was genuinely torn towards the end and those make for the really good finale. And if you just

allowed the lead to be a little bit more involved where you were actually being more actually deliberate and intentional about casting the people that they were, because if you had a lead be torn between three, imagine the drama. Right. Oh, it's so true. I'm actually surprised, I mean, I haven't worked on the show in so long, so who knows, but I'm actually surprised that they haven't. Like, at this point, you have a general idea of who's going to be the lead prior to, because now they're not really using that the formula anymore of like someone that was on a previous season is going to be the next bachelor or bachelorette, but we also want to wait for the ratings to come out and then see whether or not we actually want to move forward with them. Then we have to ask them and then see if they say yes or no, right? So if they're casting outside, and let's say Taylor Frankie Paul, right, you should involve Taylor and say, hey, Taylor, what do you like? What are you into? What haven't you had a chance to date? Because maybe in Utah, you don't get that type of person that you would love to. And having those conversations can help the casting team really narrow down to find those types, but then also sprinkle in some folks that, like, maybe you didn't think of. Yeah. I think that should go as far as letting him almost see.

them and actually... Oh, no, no. No, no, you shouldn't be able to see them. I do. What about like a casting, like a pre- curated?

Whatever it takes to make sure that that lead is like seriously. You want them to be surprised when they get out of the limo because if they already know what these people look like, you're not going to get that genuine reaction. Maybe not all of them,

but I think I think if you're weighing the surprise of the lead, I don't think that is as important as the lead being sincerely confused and torn because so often especially on The Bachelor by the time you get to like hometowns you're you're just trying to survive yeah you are not you're checked out and it's just a survival game and you're not actually torn and all the all the all the all the all the

it becomes acting and all the like I went into last night still not know you it's just like okay but when in the seasons where you actually that it does happen those are always incredibly compelling. I want to talk to you about background checks. Yes. Okay. That is obviously something that... Oh, a lot of people love to talk about this. Yeah.

I have taken the position of, of, I guess, empathy towards your position because I just, I don't think people, my take is I just think people don't realize how hard it is to catch these things. I mean, it's one thing to do a background check. It's another thing to have access to every phone in the world and know like what showed up like what what photographs are being buried in people's

phones and as we've kind of are seeing now with love island love island being a relatively younger cast people who are like in some cases three or four years removed from high school uh and then they get casted and announced on the biggest re-i-tiv show in the world and then everyone who went to high school with these people are like holy shit did you hear like monitor you know like like so-and-so got casted, and they're like, oh, I used to be friends of that person. Yeah. And then they go through their phone, they're like, oh, shit. And then it gets released.

I mean, I assume that's the big challenge of casting people is to like, there's only so much you can background check. There's only so much. And I think a lot of people don't realize how much we do. We have outside vendors, it's not the casting team that's doing it. It's vendors that we then hire through, you know, obviously approval of the production company and the network. And we're doing a social media background check where we're going through every single thing. We are doing a background check where we're actually looking at DUIs and all of that stuff, the criminal. And then, you know, we're doing psych exams as well to make sure that they can actually be on a show and be okay.

The social media aspect of it, especially now with the younger generation, it's going to be in. impossible to get everything because you have Snapchats that disappear. If someone screenshots that, we don't have access to that. There's no way, right? Text messages, private text messages. We can't go through someone's phone and actually ask them, hey, who have you ever texted?

Have you sent anything that was lewd? We can ask, but we can't actually ever get that, right? So anything that we have access to is already on social media. If there's something that is released after the first, fact that you sent your best friend 15 years ago, there's no way I'm going to have access to that. So it's impossible to find everything.

So, you know, we do our best. Is it the best way we can do? You know? Does it ever get discouraging, you know, as a casting person, like almost every season now? And then, like, the common responses is if you guys aren't doing your job. It hurts every time.

And I'm like, we are doing our jobs so well. There's so many eyes on everything that we do. And so when someone's like, oh, they didn't pass back or all, why this person on this show? And saying all these negative things were like, these teams are combing through. Before I even reach out to people, I comb through their social media to see if there's anything before I even reach out now. Interesting. Because it's just like, I don't want to get all the way down the line. We spend money on these background checks.

And if it doesn't pass, you know, goes out the door. I think nowadays with Rai-TV, there's like mixed opinions even in casting in terms of, Is there a benefit to casting someone with an actual following versus like an undiscovered person? Do you have a personal opinion on that? It doesn't, I mean, to me, I don't have, I don't really care anymore. I think at this point, everyone almost has like at least a couple thousand followers. It's very rare to find someone that has like 200. But I'm saying like in terms of like big social followings, sometimes it's great.

Sometimes it brings in a new audience that we wouldn't have access to. But sometimes they are just so trained for camera and it comes off inauthentic. Yeah. So, but you know that during the audition process because you're going to interview them and talk to them and then they feel like, oh, like they're doing a YouTube video that's probably not going to work for this show. The people that you've interviewed that do, that do have big platforms and that I'm guessing have come across as authentic because you probably wouldn't have casted them or whatever. Like when you're interviewing them, what's the difference between somebody like that versus somebody who, you're asking. who either wants a big following or has a big following. And like, how do you spot the difference between those two people?

Yeah. I think it's a lot of it is like just how they answer questions is like, I want to be on this show because I'm excited to possibly have a journey and meet someone new, but also possibly have a career after it. People will say it. People will say. Is that actually at this point? I mean, it's, I understand why it's a great career option.

afterwards. Well, I guess the reason I, I'm curious why you think it's bad, because especially nowadays, right? Like in 2014, when I got casted, the opportunity wasn't as obvious. Certainly, your friends and family would all be like, oh my God, you're going to go to Hollywood. And you're just like, I don't think that's... Sounds very American Idol. I don't think that's... I don't think that's... I don't think that's what happening, but like, I was a housewoman, too. Right, you know, and, but, like, quickly after was social media and, and influencing it. you know, and we've talked about that at great length of this show, that I can't, how do you, how do you fault someone at this stage of the game? Because like, the reality is, is this like,

people ask me, like, why'd you go on? I went on because I was hoping for a free trip to Europe. I like that. I mean, like, and then I've just thought it would be like a really, like, unique life experience. Right. Right. That's a great answer. And that was ultimately my reason. Cast. Yeah. You're in. You're in. You're in. You're in. You're in. You're going to be. And then like once I got on the show, I remember being like, well, I'm here. So I guess I'm going to just participate in this thing I signed up for. Mm-hmm. And I think that's honestly the best you can do because I also think it would be literally crazy for

someone to earnestly be like, I'm here to find love. And this is like why. Really? You don't think people want to find love on TV? I think if you're open to the idea that you can go on the show and you might meet someone great. If you sincerely are like, the apps haven't worked for me. No, I'm with, I'm kind of with you on this.

I can't find love. And I need this to find. I think that's crazy. I think that's, I mean, it's. As a casting director, would you hear that and be like, yeah, they may make a great. I think that's interesting. I think there's plenty of people. There's hundreds of thousands of people that actually have that story, including my sister.

She has been on the app. She's dated around. And she can't find anyone. And she was like, maybe I need to go on love is blind. I've considered. I would say love is blind is one of the. the few where I actually think like, okay, like, that is like, that one. That seems like the real.

Correct. So I kind of get that. But I'm kind of with you where like when I went on, my friends were huge fans of the show. And they were like, you should do this. It's sick. You're going to get to travel. It's going to be fun. And I was like, I'm not one to turn down an adventure.

And I was at a point where I was like, and I want, I do want love. But I was like, if I just make it halfway, I'll be stoked. Like, I just honestly had that mentality where I was like, he's not going to pick me. Like, I'm down to try. like I'm down to go have a fun time, but it was so far-fetched that it would work out even on from that perspective of like the person picking me. And then it's like, hopefully I like them,

but like most people are picky for good reason. So it's like I was like, I'm not going to like stay if I don't like him. Well, that's why I think casting for you guys, it seems so hard now because I guess that's my point. It's just like, how do you, I think 10 years ago, it was just more like, oh, this is a cool experience. And like, yeah, I mean, I haven't found love yet. Like maybe, I'm sure if that happens, great.

But how do you fault the person who signs up for Love Island and have them not hope that they have a career afterwards? They have a career. Yeah. That they become a, I mean, how do you fault that person? And like to be able to be that person and give an answer. Yeah. So that someone in casting like yourself, it reads as like, okay, you know, like not like,

I just want to be your villain or someone who's just like here to perform. Right? Because I think that's a video because like you've been like there are times on the my you know, whether it was Bachelor Paradise, Bachelorette or The Bachelor, where no one ever says action in reality TV. You know, it is, it is. But I have been on these shows and it felt like someone heard the word action in their head and I was like, turn it on. And you're like, whoa. Like it is immediately it be, you know, I've experienced that many times. And that I think is a kind of. And that I think is a common occurrence. And I feel like a more casting stamp, but you're trying to avoid that. Yeah, we're trying to people that, like, they actually feel authentic when they turn the cameras on

and turn the cameras off. That's what we're really trying to. And I know it's going to be impossible now, especially. Love Island, these people are going in to maybe, they have like a thousand followers on their Instagram. And then they're leaving with millions. Crazy. So they know going into it that they are going to probably have some sort of, of social media career after this. And I think that's fine. I think that's okay and that's going to be expected, especially now of this generation, because it's an actual career. But, you know, obviously I started casting, you know, almost 15 years ago is like, we weren't looking for that. That wasn't a job. That wasn't something. And I try to keep that on the back of my mind of like,

who are these people that, you know, are actually in here to be genuine and try something new, have this adventure, and then also be authentic about it. And you can read people so quickly of just how they react and how they move and talk to you. It's second nature for us that we like know that they're just doing this to do this and not actually trying to actually be a part of what they like to call an experiment. Because at the end of the day, all these reality shows are experiments. We are putting people in a fishbowl and people are watching the aquarium go by and see whether or not that they would be a good fit for this show.

And then eventually these goldfish jump out and then they have to do something about it. Yeah, I agree. Traders, another show that you worked on. How is, I mean, obviously Traders is very different format than the Love Competition shows we've been discussing. But from a casting standpoint, what is the secret sauce for casting for traders?

Oh, man, you need people that are manipulative, but also you need people that are. gullible. So having that fun balance of it all and game players, like people that are just in it and like will do anything to win money, whether it's, you know, knocking someone down or just lying to their face. Like you need to find that interesting balance. But I love the gullible types. Those are my favorite to find. Did you cast the season that Gabby Wendy was on? No, I only did season one. Okay. Well, I think she's one of the most brilliant castings for traders. I 100% I think she's truly one of the most intelligent women I've ever met in my life.

She's so smart, so strategic, like really just, like, brilliant. But she is so comfortable with people thinking whatever they want about her, where she's like, I know who I am. I know what's working in here, but you guys can totally think I'm a dumb girl. Yeah. And I'm going to let you. That's a showler. And then I'm going to pull one over on you. Like, she is so brilliant.

But I was curious if you saw that when casting. Yeah. No, I didn't work on her season, but fantastic addition to that cast. so, so good. And like, that's why we like Parvety, right? Like, I think a lot of people, not anymore, but they used to underestimate her because of just the way she looked and how she carried herself. But that woman can play a game. I love that. I love it. And same was Surrey. Surrey, you look at her and she's like, kind of your auntie. You just want to hang out with her. You like trust her. She feels very calm. But man, she's a game player. Yeah.

What's the difference, I guess? So the season of Traders you worked on. That was still when It was like normie. Yeah. So it was half civilians and half celebrities. Yeah. I guess is there, what was it like trying to cast for that? Because you're also having these like civilians going up against these names. So what was that kind of?

Yes. So it's very interesting because we didn't know we were going to have celebrities when we were casting. We were casting a full season of just only civilians. And that was it. And then it was like a couple weeks until we were about to rap. And they were like, hey, actually, we're going to have celebrities in this season. And I was like, huh, some of these people are just not going to measure up to a lot of these game players. When, I mean, I was a huge Big Brother fan and I watched Rachel Riley's season.

And I was like, who's going to be able to compete with like someone like Rachel Riley and like Surrey? And like, how is that even fair? Yeah. So it was a really interesting. We didn't really get to navigate it because it was just kind of like forced upon us. And we were like, all right, well, we'll just do it. Yeah. We'll see how it goes.

Is casting pre-established figures, how, what's the difference kind of in that versus casting civilians? Yes. Okay. So it's very different because, you know, a lot of them don't have to do audition process. Some do, depending on the show, like got to get out for Hulu we worked on. And that had, like, Demi, who was, yeah. I watched that season.

Yeah. So she didn't interview. She went through the whole. casting process, but there's some that are just like, it's an offer only situation where it's like, I reach out to your reps and say, hey, do you want to do this show? Traders is pretty offer early at this point. Yeah. It's like, yeah, and it's like, do you want to do the show? And they say yes or no, and then you move on, but you also still have to do the puzzle pieces of whether or not they're actually

going to fit with the cast. But civilians, because you don't know these people, you don't know idea how they're going to play the game. They have to go through the full casting process, like every single reality star before. They hop on a phone call. Do they do tests for like gameplay? Yeah. So yeah, during our casting finals, we will actually give them like scenarios and like how would you react in this situation? What would you do? How would you play this game? I wish I could watch. Even casting that would be so fun to watch. It's so much fun. And even like like like the circle and that stuff too, we were like actually giving them like the game to play because you how else are you going to find out how these people play besides just talking to them.

Wow, fascinating, fascinating stuff. Before we let you go, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about your opinion about Nicolandre. As someone who's in casting, a topic that there is no unpassionate people about this topic. How can you not? How can not be unpassioned about it? Well, you know, like, I think most the, you know, I was, we were talking Tuesday's episode where like, I think a lot of, the.

this point, the average fan is even upset because reality TV and love competition show exists for no other reason than for fans to question the authenticity of these relationships that are that are formed in these hyper manipulated and controlled environments. And there have been great love stories that come out of it. And that's why we follow and support them. And then you had this relationship that literally started clearly based off of like people encouraging them to explore this connection that other people saw in them. And then when people wanted to question it, they were character assassinated by this fan base that just was so passionate about these two.

And then for the most part, the relationship seemed like, I don't know, who knows? Like, you know, maybe they're together, maybe they're not. But as I said, they didn't stick the landing, like, at all, you know, and any good performance, it comes down to, you know, stick in the landing. And I'm curious as someone who is an expert in reading people's authenticity and also understands the pressure these people are all under. I mean, it is all relationships with reality TV. It is a gauntlet to make it work, even if you truly have some deep love and chemistry and compatibility. And even then, the odds are stacked against you.

I am curious from someone in the seat that you're sitting, wordy land. I have such a hot take on all of this from the beginning of Nick and O'Landria. I thought that the producers saw how well received both of them were because remember they were basically getting eliminated and then they were brought back. Kind of unprecedented. I immediately was like, hmm, something's up here. And I thought from the beginning that it was a pretty manufactured relationship

because both sides, everyone loved both of them. Then they got together and everyone saw that. And I think a lot of people, especially in this environment of what we are in the political sphere of like, we just want to see black women win, especially darker-skinned black women win and also seeing a relationship with a white man. They're also like, oh, wow, like anything can happen on reality TV. We're seeing something new. And I thought that was a beautiful love story.

I have nothing against that. But once I saw that after they left the island and every single one of them were just like posting so many, there were so many campaigns. I was like, unless they're actually in like a real relationship, there is no way that this is going to last because I saw how O'Landria was already moving in the space. She was trying to make a name for herself as an individual. She was not doing a Nick in O'Landria. She was doing an Alandria. And then Nick was very much like, I am attached to Alandria. And any sort of interview that you did, what was he always talking about?

Her and she was talking. It was mainly about herself. And then every once in a while I mentioned Nick. So I saw those pretty instantly. And I said, I don't know how real this relationship is. And I think they're going to get their coin. They're going to do what they need to do. And I said this actually to my sister last year in December.

I said they're going to go through the holidays. They have to get the holiday coin. And then after that, I bet you maybe around like next season of Love Island, things are going to fizzle out. When they see when people start it, they get their new couples to love. Like Mary's theory. I know. Similar to me.

I think they actually do truly like have love. for each other and care for each other. I am not negating that at all. They're literally when they broke up, they're like, nothing's changed. Nothing's changed. Yeah, exactly, because they were never. Yeah. You know, I don't think that, I think they loved each other, but not we're in love with

each other. Yeah. And do you, I mean, listen, good for them. Yes. Get your back. It's also a young love. No harm of that. But that being said, is someone in casting, what you care about is authenticity.

Yes. You want to, like, you want to believe in that there are, there are. are real couples that come from it. And real couples are constantly criticized and questioned. Right. So is there an element of like, you know, at the end of the day, whatever, who cares? But like, does it hurt the kind of ecosystem? I don't think it's going to ever hurt the ecosystem.

Because I think people are always going to be tuned in and they're going to want, everyone's going to root for love no matter what. And that's the beauty of every dating show. We want these people to win and people will tune in because of it. whether or not it's a manufacturer, you know, dating experience and these people actually aren't real couples. At the end of the day, it's just like watching characters, like, play out on screen and they'll always have people like Nick and O'Landrio or we'll have, you know. All right. Well, Jazzy Collins, thanks for coming by.

Thanks for much fun. Fun conversation. Where can people follow, find you, and all that fun stuff? They can find me on Instagram at Jazzy casting. Nice and simple. Right. That's off. Thank you. Thank you. That was so fun. Yes. That will do it for today's episode. Sadly, we have not yet have time to really get into Real Housewives of O.C. But it's, you know, it's a slow...

It's a slow... You know, they're more like set in the stage. There's not really anything to break down. It's fun. It's light. It's enjoyable. We have three episodes and not a lot of happen. I mean, listen, it takes time for water to boil. But once it gets there... We also wanted to eventually talk about the...

toxic love story at Netflix. Maybe we'll get into that. Twist and turns, my dude. I was sat. I got to watch it. I was like, oh, not another one of these. The biggest thing is it's like, you know, when you date, you know, and like, you know, it's just like the, you know, it's a scary world out there. You know, you never feel like you're going to meet a monster.

And yet there's people who truly meet, like, do you imagine meeting someone who fakes cancer? Well, I just, my ex did that, you guys. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Is he in jail? No. bro. How did you find out? He confessed, but I was like trying to break up with him and he was like, he had been lying about things. I kept catching him in lies and he finally was like, the reason why I've been lying is because I have cancer and I've been getting treatment and I didn't want you to worry about me. And so I went home for the, I was in college. I went home for the summer and like told my family he came to visit. And then my parents asked him about it. He lied to my parents. Like we all and my mom was like, what type of? He said he had melanoma. And my mom was like, I knew.

that he was lying but and I was like mom I felt the same but how do you call somebody out for lying about cancer how did your mom know she was like I could just she was like I could just tell like we would they would ask him questions and he would get nervous about the topic of it and he was like don't tell my mom because they were my our moms were Facebook friends and he was like I don't wanted to worry about me and my mom was like why would you not tell your mom that you have like yeah that's like you do in the first grade remind me in the first grade I read this vivid memory of me and Shane Peterson deciding where are you today, Shane?

I don't know. Deciding to tell our first grade teacher that we were long-lost brothers and we were from New Mexico. That's a fun one. That's fine. I still do that. I still do that.

I still do that. We're brothers. Not quite the same. I know what you mean, though. Yeah. But it's like so based off of nothing. Yeah. And just pure delusion.

But like, I remember in the first grade being like, what am I doing? Living a lot. And as a first grader, I had the emotional kind of matured to be like, this is wrong. This is wrong. And that's what I was going to say.

I think it's so funny. What was so crazy about that documentary was just the idea that people could so subtly lie about something so big and keep it going. You know what I mean? While destroying lives. 100% and like having no guilt factor, no need to like back down until put into a corner and it's just kind of like it is terrifying. Because you know what I mean?

Like most of the time when people are lying to you just kind of feel like you can just sense it or you're just like that didn't add up or that didn't feel right. but I couldn't imagine lying about serious things over a longevity of a relationship. But, no, that documentary was insane. So I would love to talk about it. Pick your friends carefully, people. Well, that will daylight for today's episode.

Be sure to check out our Going Deeper with Haley and Ashley from Ultimatum. An important conversation that I think everyone should listen to. A little disturbing to see some of the discourse and the people are so quick to discredit these people's stories. But nevertheless, I think it's an important episode and I hope you all get a chance to listen to it. And thank you to all our guests.

Jazzy Collins, Stephanie Sosa, and Kada, also, aka Mikey. We appreciate them all, and we appreciate you listening. We'll see you back on Monday. Bye-bye.