The Viall Files - E1167 - Trad Wife Hysteria, Married At First Sight w/ Dr. Lisa & Unpacking Bravo Relationships w/ Dr. Baker

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Dr. Lisa joins us to break down Married at First Sight, modern matchmaking, compatibility, why love isn't always enough, and what actually makes a relationship work long-term. Then Dr. Pamela Baker stops by to unpack Kyle and Amanda, intimacy, communication, couples therapy, and the relationship dynamics on The Valley. Plus, we get into Nara Smith, trad wife discourse, Alex Cooper's pregnancy announcement, and why the internet is so obsessed with putting women in boxes.   "We get so obsessed with labels…" Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/ Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: CashApp: New Cash App customers can earn $10 if they use code FAMILY10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Spa Weekend: Book your escape and treat yourself to SPA WEEKEND. Only in theaters August 21st. Bilt: Download the Bilt app and join the membership for where you live, at https://joinbilt.com/viall Figs Scrubs: Use code FIGSRX for 15% off your first order at https://wearfigs.com Ollie: This summer, treat your pup to better food and perfect poops. Head to https://ollie.com/viall, tell them all about your dog, and use code VIALL to get 70% off your Welcome Kit when you subscribe today! BetterHelp: See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit https://betterhelp.com/viall  Quince: Upgrade your everyday. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to https://quince.com/viall  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 34:29 - Dr. Pamela Baker Joins 1:20:05 - Dr. Lisa Paz Joins 1:44:25 - Married at First Sight 2:12:00 - Outro Episode Socials:  @viallfiles  @nickviall  @susiecevans     @ciaracrobinson @drlisapaz @the_mare_bare @justinkaphillips @baybaeee

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of The Vile Files. I'm your host, Nick, joined by the household. We got Sierra, Susie, Mary, Bailey, Justin are all in the room. How are you guys doing? Fantastic. I got so much to talk about so much on my mind. We do have a jam-packed episode for you.

We dove into Marriott at first sight. The Love Island show that we all watched, stopped. And then Peacock was like, here. Something else. Here's something else you might be interested. And boy, are we? I know we've been late to the married at first site hype. What a fun.

So there's 90-day fiancé and then there's married at first site, right? And I'm a huge 90-day fiancé now. And give me the biggest difference between the two? Like a couple that goes on a K-1 visa, one person's coming from a different country to get married within 90 days. But is like they've been. Is it always a different country? It's always, yeah. Like it's like 90-day fiancé is usually them coming to America.

Then you have the other way, which is somebody from America. going to live in their country. It's just... That is a big part of the show. It's the, like, the main part of the show. Really? And then we follow these couples. Some of these couples have been on the show for years, and there's so many spin-offs.

So it's just like how they've assimilated to life. Them having children. Like, they follow them. There's like after the first 90 days. Yeah. There's a lot of spinoffs and it's just like really interesting to see how couples assimilate. Have we been sleeping on that? I think so.

I've been campaigning for that for years. There are some characters. Not loud enough. I don't know what you're talking about. Sierra talks to me about 90-day theater. Sometimes I feel like I've seen it. Anyway, married at first sight, a show where people just like, episode one, get married.

Yeah. Like, married me. It feels like less of a hate watch. Like, you know how you're watching shows and you're just like so angry at the couples because you're like, this is so toxic? Like right now we're a couple, four episodes and five episodes in, and I'm like, oh, this could work. Well, first of the first time I have, this show weirdly is like,

I think it's because you see the matchmaking process. I can suspend my disbelief a little bit more where I would normally be a lot more judgmental and a love is blind situation. Well, Dr. Lisa, one of the experts on Married at First Site, it joins us. And we get to talk with her about the whole show, the premise, and that will be later this episode.

I think you all will really enjoy that conversation with Dr. Lisa. We also have Dr. Pamela Lee Baker. It's a full-on doctor expert relationship show this episode. We were talking about in the city, the reunion. We're talking about Kyle and Amanda's marriage

or lack thereof and they're like intimacy and what did I? We were, what was I saying? I was saying some shit. I think you, you were talking about sex

and then not having sex. Yeah. Was she hold, was Amanda holding out? Was that causing distress in the marriage? And then, love languages. Love languages.

And then we were making a bunch of theories and guesses and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

and, what led to this fallout between Amanda and Kyle. And then we were like, I don't know if there's an expert, listening. Chime in the comments.

Give us a comment. Help us out. Dr. Baker, she raised her hand. And so she will be joining us shortly to give an expert opinion. We love volunteers. On Kyle and Amanda's

relationship. And what might we be able to learn from these crazy kids on reality TV? And hopefully Dr. Baker can guide us through. You know, because that's what we really want to do on this show.

Have some fun. And maybe learn a little bit. Yeah. along the way. Over the weekend, I'm, I've been, guys, I'm obsessed with this trad wife conversation. I was hoping you were going to bring that up because I had a question about it. Last week, Norris Smith went and call her daddy. I, I knew who Narra Smith was. I'm more familiar with her husband, Lucky Blue. Is it Lucky Blue? Early in my like Bachelor reality TV days, I met a person who I think worked with him and like she made me, like, but he's like, you know how like Bryce, like,

male mouth of Calvin Klein and that's a big deal. But like Lucky is, he's like the Zooland, like he's Zoolander, IRL. Not, I'm not speaking to the caricature that is Zoolander. Just like famous model. But like literally the supermodel, I mean, he is massive. Like I just know that about him. Anyways, they're married. Nara is also a model, very successful model.

And her and Lucky have a family together. I kind of knew all this just from afar. I don't follow her. But apparently he went and call her daddy and the whole conversation about like Treadwife came up. She likes to make pies and food. it sounds, you know, for her family. It sounds like also her family has gone through some, from tragedy.

She has some autoimmune stuff. That's why she, I mean, but either way, she likes to cook. Have you never seen her videos? They're phenomenal. Yeah, I think I've seen them. I haven't like really studied them. It sounds like, it also appears that she also like sundresses. Yeah.

And she's aesthetically pleasing. She's wearing like scabore. Couture gowns in the kitchen. I only became aware of the. trad wife kind of moniker when we had a guest come on a comedian I think she was trying to tease me but like she was like oh you look like a guy who'd want a trad wife or something and which I thought was ironic since my wife was literally here at work with me but the point is it seems like my understanding of trad wife it's meant to be it's a divisive term term these days and here's and

I'm no expert so like you know I know for anyone this is but that this narra smith conversation went off the rails on the internet. And it makes no sense to me. So first, it seems like you have a group of people who identify as trad wives. They're like, I'm a trad wife. And apparently they're like, I guess it's very, traditional, like, their whole, their whole shtick is like,

I'm going to do all the traditional. I'm going to cook, clean, all things from my... Free van de camp from Desperate Housewives. Free van de camp from Desperate. I'm going to lean into the very old traditional ways of... Yeah, making us to Bucco. Starting in the morning for dinner. And I imagine some of these trad wives are aspiring trad wives and then actual people who are claiming to be, they have husbands.

They're their actual wives. Well, you can't be single and be a trad wife? Can't you be like an aspiring trad wife? Can't you like, hey, I make a girlfriend, I guess. I make pies and I wear sun like, can't you? At that point, Nick, you just open a bakery. Yeah. I'm like, what is the, are there no influences out there being like, hey, hey, tried wife here.

I think the difference between being like a food influence. and being a trad wife is truly a marriage certificate. Yeah, and like, are we making food for our family? Are we making, like, cute little recipes for you to try at home, even for one? Yeah. What was so fascinating about the Nara Smith conversation is that she went on Call Her Daddy and she was like, yo, like, I just like doing this stuff. Life happened.

I'm an influencer and I'm providing for my family. And what's so fascinating when I thought was fascinating about our culture is this like, everyone labeled her. and she basically came on in his podcast it was like, stop labeling me. I'm just like, I'm just here living my life. We get so obsessed with labels. Yeah.

You know, and then like, and I think for so many people, it meant, it means a lot of things. But I just find, like, first of all, if for the actual tradwives, the people who are like, hey, I'm a trad wife and they're online

and they're influencing. The irony about that is like, they're making money. And they're providing for their family. And it's just like, well, I think also it's important to acknowledge, like, I'm going to say right now, like, I don't know the origin or the tradition. Like, I want to be upfront that I don't have enough context of the conversation to, like, form an opinion that's so headstrong one way or the other.

But I think that the whole conversation in itself is like, if you're making millions of dollars online posting content like that, you really aren't a trad wife. What does that even mean trad wife? Traditional wife. Well, maybe you are a trad wife. But I mean, but it's more so like, is there a moral obligation to disclose, like, to people who are unaware of the industry and the amount of money people are making, like, who look up to these people and aspire to have this same lifestyle? It's like, okay, if you want to, I don't know. I don't know if there's a moral obligation to display that. There's so much of her life is unique, you know, like she is literally an incredibly successful model with an incredibly successful husband.

Career outside of this. She has a unique life, as we all do. I think what I find so fascinating about the tri-wife conversation is how just how online it is and how impractical in reality. I think it's such an example of just how much online discourse and how online like lifestyles don't reflect reality. It's not. The funny thing is, so I talk to my mom and was like every day when I'm driving home. And it's funny, Gurley is not online. Gurley hates the internet.

She is like anti-social media. so it's really funny that I do this for a living because she's always like, all right, she'll watch the show sometimes and she's like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but she, you know, is supportive. But it's really funny because sometimes they'll bring up stuff to her that we talk about in the show.

And she'll get so mad at me and she'll be like, that's so stupid that is not real life. And I'm like, well, one, like, and I think that's why. Like, there's an entire environment of online stuff that, like, people talk about. But that's why I'm so fascinated by this particular conversation because the more I learn about, the more like, like, it's just not real life in the sense,

because no doubt there is a spectrum of the way people, of relationships, how, like, the roles we all play in relationships, same sex marriages, like men and women relationships. And like, you just, like, I don't know, you, you have different roles. And then you have unfunded expectations about the things you're looking for. And then you, and then you, you get together with them. And often you realize that, you know, oh, you, you said you were one way. It turns out you're another way. And then they're that whole negotiated. And some people like there are, you opt out of relationships.

They get divorced and things like that. But it's just more like, no doubt, I am sure there are some highly traditional people out there that are really rigid in their expectations. And there's like, you know, misogynistic men who are like, demand certain types of things versus like, or more traditional women who, you know, but I think in reality, especially when it comes to like parents. you know or it's just like i don't know you're just in in in 2026 i mean it's more common than not to require some a two-income household or just to like have to just to be able to like afford to to have to afford life and even if you're lucky enough to not you know there's just so many responsibilities to make a house work and if you have kids and even if you're lucky enough to have help when it comes to parenting it's still a lot you know what i'm saying and and i just find

it to be so funny the conversation because in reality, I just think most people just have to like do what it takes to make a relationship work. When I think of Tradwife, I think of Mad Men and I think of like that lifestyle. A TV show. Like a T, well, a 60s, I think of like Norman Rockwell. I think of like dinner at home on the table. The American Dream dinner at Brie Vandacamp is a perfect example. Like I think of, I think Tradwife, the actual Trad Wife is probably, well, she's probably responding online, but she's not posting necessarily. She's not making money necessarily. She lives in Antucket and has an amazing hydrangea

Yeah, like the actual It's just really funny because it's like I don't, I think it's traditional feminine, it's people wanting to be like In a traditional feminine role and I guess it's like if you want it sure if you I think it's like if you want to do that period do whatever the fuck you want I think it's don't then don't do it The role part that I'm a little confused by

Because it's just more like you could be a guy, a single guy. I can be like, you know what? Someday I hope my wife makes me sandwiches for lunch. I mean, that could be a goal. But then you might meet someone. You might say something as crazy like, yeah, I just make me sandwiches.

And then you get married and at some point you'd be like, make your own fucking sandwich. I don't fucking, you know what I'm saying? At some point, life shows up and problems happen. And as a couple, whether you decide to have kids or not have kids or whatever, like, you just have to figure it out. And I just find it just like, in reality, I just find, I think most.

relationships and most couples aren't like even if even if that was a goal it's not reality it it's just the way that people are obsessed with this this title in these and and and I guess and can't can't can a progressive modern person woman or whatever still enjoy making pies or doing some of more say traditional things and still be considered themselves modern or progressive in other aspects of their life and I think they can and should one of my I have like a fantasy where I'm just sheffing it up for a beautiful woman. I don't think that makes me a trad way. That's what I'm saying

that makes me get a gay. And our internet culture, we want to label everyone. We just want to we want to put everyone in these buckets. It's just like people want to look at Nora Smith and look at her videos and they want to make a bunch of assumptions about who she is as a person, how

she raises her kids, maybe her belief system, her worldviews or whatever and it's just like I don't know maybe she's like making comments. I think it's just performative outrage, to be completely honest. Like, I'm just like, I think we live in a world where anybody can pull out a camera at any point, whether it's the highest of quality of content, whether it's from my car, selfie style, going on a rant.

And people, we have so many options nowadays to continue to scroll. This doesn't work for me. But instead, I guess it gives a little dopamine hit or something to leave a snarky comment or say you're doing something wrong or have some sort of big feelings about it when it really doesn't affect your day. If a girl wants to fucking make a piece of bread or gluten-free whatever and is telling you every organic ingredient she's going to put in

it dressed nicely, why does that bother you so bad? Also, it's satire. Their whole thing is satire. I feel like that's But people are so so ready to get upset. Yeah, and I think that's what's frustrating as somebody that does content. I'm like,

sometimes I think it would be easier and maybe better for my mental health to take on a persona and be like, you know what? I'm just going pretend to show up as this thing. Literally, my dream. Oh, my God, my dream. But like something like that where you're like, this actually removes me from the equation. So any projection you put on me, like actually has nothing to do with me. But then obviously, authenticity wins in the sense of like community. But I do look at what she does. And I'm like, if you don't see what she's doing as satire, then I'm like, you're kind of missing the point. Like she's in a, a couture gown in her kitchen

as if that would be a tradwife. And maybe she dresses like that when she's not filming content, but she also, maybe does it also in sweatpants sometimes. And when she's making content, maybe she dresses up. But isn't that what they said? She's making, she's making something. She's like creating. But I think that's like what people were upset about in the interview was that she like was like, that's not me every day. And it's just kind of like, well, no shit. I just think it's just crazy to think that like somebody is constantly pulling out a phone and recording every like moment of their life. You only see her making random dishes.

Yeah. And she loves the extravagance of it. My kid wanted lucky charms. So, this morning, I pulled out. You know what I mean? Like it's a whole system that is just silly, but like she does end up making quality amazing things. I think it's because we're so obsessed with labels. I mean, another thing, part of that conversation I was kind of made aware of like Alex Cooper obviously hosts of Caller Daddy, very famous, very successful person recently announced and she was pregnant. And I turns out, I didn't realize this because I'm not like following her audience that closely. But people were pissed. People were pissed. What the F? It was crazy and it was like, Yeah.

And it was like apparently, and then there's like accusations on like, like, like, grifter accusations. Like, even with like, Nora Smith, oh, you, you, you, you are presenting one way, but you're not told, like, you're, is it. People need to understand what a grifter actually is. Of course. But it's just more like, what makes Alex Cooper so fascinating, I think, and hyper-success is how she's evolved as a person.

This was a, this was a woman who in her early 20s created this massive popular podcast that at the time in her life was a lot, she was this single, independent young woman who empowered other young women to feel good about talking about sex, talking about sex, or God forbid, participating in hookup culture without the shame that often comes with it. And she made a lot of young women feel good about that. Well, Alex Cooper got older, you know, and then, and then her show evolved. Her show has evolved with her, which I think, just from a business standpoint, I find to be incredibly impressive and cool and just most people aren't able to pivot the way Alex Cooper has in life.

And then she got into a relationship. And then she, you know, and I don't like, again, follow her that close. I've seen a couple interviews of Alex Cooper being like, I don't know, I'm not ready to have kids yet. You know, okay, cool. But she never said I don't want to have kids. But it turns out, it seemed like a lot of people

who follow Alex Cooper, like put this label on her. Is if that, like, if you want to talk about sex and women empowerment, then that means you have to like subscribe to this very specific lifestyle. and I guess for some people, that meant you can't have kids. And I guess if she decided to have kids, they accused her of like falsely representing some kind of, I don't know, specific lifestyle.

And it was like, wait, what, huh? Can't people evolve? Can't, like, can she be a 21, 20, young, 20-something-year-old person who at that time of our life wants different things for herself? And as she gets older, her opinions change, her decisions change. And now she's going to be a mom who, that will continue to evolve.

evolve. Or they never changed. And the way people are so mad at her for like just her evolving as a person is crazy. It's just the labels we put on each other. And I think it's possible that she never did change. Like that maybe she always knew she wanted children. But maybe she didn't talk about it because she was focused on her career, her guests, the people on her podcast.

Like I think it's possible that she's wanted that and knew that was probably in her future. But it reminds me also of Hannah Burner. And then I'm going to mess with last name because I've never said out loud. Drew Afa. Drew Afa. I've never said her last name out loud, but two, like, hysterical, funny queens who just, like, they talk some mad shit on men. And I love it. And they have the funniest clips out there. And they're two of the funniest, like, comedic women, I think that I follow. But they both have loving husbands. And they both talked about how people will literally go off on them and be like, oh, you talk this big game. But then you both are, or not both, but like, you are married. And they both are like, yeah, well, like, I love my husband. And they're. That doesn't mean I love yours.

That doesn't mean I love yours. Yeah. Like we're talking about these POS men who are treating all these people like X, Y, and Z. But they're like, but I love my man. And I love that. And I respect that. But it's like the, you said, the duality of like being human, but people like to put people in boxes. Yeah.

Also, it happens. Like, it happens on the gay internet all the time. It's, it'll basically be like, let's, for example, let's say God for a woman, a woman is bisexual publicly. Oh my God. If she, from like my side of the internet. it if she dates a man. One, it's like kind of funny.

But like... She's a traitor. Well, that's why, that's how it's like some parts of like... It'll be like, oh my God. Like, truly when Phoebe Bridgers, Paul Mescal got an excuse because he's hot. And then to like lesbians, when Phoebe Bridgers started dating Bo Burnham, it truly was like a very dramatic thing happening within like the gay internet. And it's because it's like, I think it's less of...

It's not actually about any. of these people. It's like it's our obsession with categories. Yeah. It's like when something's on your page and in your feed, it's for you. And then you know what category it's in and you kind of develop this ownership and this parissocial relationship with people. And then they don't give you what you want and you're like, what the fuck? I went to let's say like Phoebe Bridgers for my gay yearning and now she's not even though she still is. You know, it's like, it's not for me. But I'm going to go ahead and guess Nora Smith is never, maybe she's hashtag. Tadwife, I don't know, maybe she thought that would help the algorithm.

I don't know, but I'm going to go ahead and guess she wasn't like, this is the only way. No. You know, like, you have to do this. And if you don't, you're bad. Or, you know, like, I think she just was like doing things she loves. Yeah. And she made it really aesthetically pleasing for some people. It's not for everyone.

You know what they need? A not for you page. You know, if you find anything about this video triggering or upsetting to you, it's not, I guess it's not for you. Go back to the safe place. The for you page. But you should explore. You're not for you sometimes. Yeah.

You know, you should, like maybe you should have a not for you page to diversify the things we're watching online. You know, people get into these pigeonholes. But I just find it fascinating. These creators have to have to fight so hard to defend things

they never actually speak on or really lean into, but they will say one thing in the way people just throw on all these meanings and labels behind them or as if it means something. Even if you do lean into it like Nara did, I'm just like, it's a bit. And that is what the internet should be used for. Silly bits. And especially if you are a creator, you realize that when something hits and does well, I'm going to make another one and see how that goes. Oh, and this does well, now it's become a persona.

Let somebody have that. I just, I don't understand the need to. And where I'm like, by all means, don't like it. You don't have to. Keep scrolling. It's never been easier to ignore someone also. You would think, but I think it's. It's hard for people.

No, I mean, as far as like, let's say you don't like Narasmith, blocker. But even if you don't like Naras Smith, even if you don't like the idea of tradwives, like, okay. Block word trad wife on your phone. There you go. Like, I'm just like, I have a friend who's a creator as well. And it's just like, she's like any time if I do a baking video because it's not her consistent, um, content. But she's a pretty girl. And she dresses nice no matter what.

But it's like the second she does like a cooking content or something. People are like, oh, you're a trad wife. Oh, you're giving into. And it's just like. So somebody can't enjoy cooking as well as fashion and beauty and all other aspects of, I don't know what I like as a woman. Yeah. It's also just like we've, I think we've gone like completely full circle at times. I want to become a tri-life. I'm making bread. I made bread for the first time. Am I now a tradwife?

Oh my gosh. You guys, I cut up sausages and put it in my Trader Joe's pasta last night. Am I a chef? Am I a Bradwife? I got into sourdough like several months ago and I was so excited. I baked the most beautiful loaf of sourdough bread. And I made a video and I like opened it and it like had steam. It was so good. And literally that day when I was going to post it like this huge tradwife discussion came up about sourdough baking. And you're like, oh no. I was like, I can't post it. It's sitting. It is literally sitting in my drafts because I was like I don't, it's like the worst timing to post my sourdough bread. But it was so good. It's also like forgave. The fact that sourdows become triggering. Like forgive me for being in my 20s during the pandemic.

Sometimes you want to carve without all that other stuff. I wouldn't even know what to do if Natalie offered to make me a sandwich. First of all, I would probably decline. In the nicest way possible. Would you be scared? The truth is, like, I don't cook because it's like my job or whatever. It's mostly because I'm particular. Yeah, that's fair.

And I like to cook, but mostly because I probably wouldn't eat. And Natalie, I'm sure, is a fine cook. We're just never going to give her the opportunity. I'm just never getting a new opportunity. And it's not because I want to be this like loving helpful. I mean, obviously I do want to be a loving helpful partner. But I'm not cooking. The reason I cook is selfish.

It's selfish. It's when 100% selfish. You will eat what I eat, but I won't eat what you eat. So it makes sense. Well, it turns out I'm a really good cooking now. It loves my cooking. It just kind of works out in terms of how we came up with our roles and responsibility of our relationship was most a lot of it was like, all right.

So like, you're really good at that. You like that. I fucking hate that. right, great. We can conquer and divide. And then there's a million other things we just do together. And that's kind of what I find so fascinating about this conversation. Because in reality, if you're a conservative man, if you're a progressive man, especially if you guys decide to have a family and have kids, you just don't have the luxury of like, you know, really sticking your heels in the ground and being like, no, I'm no. I mean, I guess you can. And I'm sure some people do,

but there also is a reason why the divorce rate is high as it is. Because a lot of those times, those people are like, you know what? I tried. And this isn't for me. And I'm sure, yes, there are some situations where people feel stuck and they can't get out of relationships. Obviously, there's extreme examples

of every situation. And that's what I feel like. The internet is always this, like, referring to the most extreme version of the thing that it's like, that might happen. But in reality, I think most couples are just trying to survive and figure it the fuck out.

And there is a spectrum of the ways people go about making the relationships work. And yes, there is a spectrum of, privilege and help that we all have, but even if you are lucky enough to have help, and Natalie and I are very lucky with the resources we have to help us, like, parent and work, but we are, and nevertheless are still, like, often feel like underwater and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and this, let's, let's, it's, it needs

to get done, so we do it. And, like, this idea. And I also, I feel like, a lot of the people who are most engaged in this discourse are single people. Am I wrong there? I feel like it's a lot of people projecting what they want for themselves or don't want from themselves. I feel like I see that a lot, too, where it's just like a lot of the times people that are really triggered by certain elements, it doesn't actually pertain to them, but it's a fear of that could be their future. So it's like, if I'm more resistant to it now, it's like, but again, no one's forcing you. You don't, just because you become a wife doesn't mean your job is instantly in the kitchen. Just because somebody's a husband doesn't mean he goes to 9 to 5 with a briefcase and comes home and dinner's on the table.

Like, to your point, I think the whole like heteronormative roles of the 60s, not really a thing right now. It's like, hey, if the trash needs to go out, do you have free hands or do I? Like, I don't think it needs to be like, oh my God, I'm your wife. I will not touch that trash. My parents, like, and I'm so grateful because I learned like the idea of being a teammate through my parents. And they had 10 kids. And it was very blue collar. So my dad worked and my mom stayed home, but it was morally based off of like that was the hand they were dealt. And if I were to like sit there and go, okay, my mom did that, my dad did that,

I guess in a lot of ways they both kind of leaned into more traditional roles. But like my mom mowed the lawn, my dad made dinner, my dad cleaned. Like again, it was mostly based off of like who was available to do what it was. Who has the bandwidth? Who has the bandwidth? And it was like, and I just, it's just hysterical. Yeah. That this tradwife thing has become so big and so divisive.

And it's so unrealistic when it comes to practical relationships. And in this time and age, because I'm with you. Yesterday I said I was going to make pasta from scratch, went to the farmer's market, got like tomatoes and my little things. I ordered my bread flour. Like I was ready. And then the day, life happened. And come around 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock.

Connor was just like, hey, like, are you going to still be able to? able to do that. And I was like, honestly, it's doing my head in. And he was like, I got you. And then he went and made dinner. So I'll make dinner tonight. But it's just like, again, there's no like, well, you said you were going to. So you should get in there because I'm hungry. Like, you know what I mean? It's not that big of a deal. One of my best friends, I could, him and his wife, they could not be more progressive in I think everything they believe. They also, she also literally has like a pie making business. They went and bought a farm in Canada. They have a bunch of animals. Like in so much of their life from a from an outsider point of view if you were just to describe their life, you would you would probably call them all right.

You know, like literally. None of nothing. It's all just from a visual standpoint. But like when does when did it become like having kids and making food and living on a farm become a political identity? It's fucking crazy. People are living on communes in the 60s. Whether you're talking about modern dating or you're talking about trad wise. like if you have a trad wife or you're stuck in a situation ship like it doesn't matter just it's just like you

or just like try to like lead with love and be a kind person and treat your neighbors right zeus's law if you will I just saw the honesty no but it's true I'm just like I just think a lot of people are so focused on what everyone else is doing and I'm just like if it bothers you so much look away and it's that easily gone but it's like if you like to stay in a constant state of frustration and just being pissed that other people are living their lives in a way you don't agree with. I'm just like that just seems like a miserable existence. You know, I was getting kind of frustrated because I bleached my hair. We can tell.

Looks good. Thank you very much. I'm feeling good, feeling hot. And that's exactly. Like people were comparing me a lot of the times would be like, you look like my friend and they would show me a picture of a brunette lesbian. And I was like, I'm sick of this shit. And then I was like mad at people.

And I was like, this is my own thing of my own identity. I want to be blonde again And so I did it And I didn't make it other people's pot Like I think sometimes we like on the internet Kind of just like we want something And we don't just do it for ourselves Susie got to post that

You got to post that video Should I post the bread tonight guy Or when this comes out When this comes out And you should hashtag tradwife Okay I'm dead The lesson from this episode

Bleach your hair if you want to Be a tradwife if you want to Bake the bread I'm gonna mock the whole Tradwife You should bake some bread And post about it too You should do it all April Yeah just get cooking

wear an apron. Yeah, yeah, like a frilly one. But you just have to make a voiceover. What's the boy version of a trad wife outfit is my question? You should do a three-piece suit. Yeah, put your tomfored suit on. Yeah, three-piece suit. You got to dress up for it.

And then you have to like go on and be like, top hat. So my wife, while catering to our two twins, asked me she was craving a sourdough sandwich. So I said, I've got you, babe. I've started with my flower and sifter. Like, you have to literally go through like every step in. a like phone operator voice. You should do a Narra Smith nod. But I do imagine there are self-identified tradwives who are very earnest about this lifestyle

and that's why some people find it like triggering. I'm just curious because I'm just like, you know how, I mean, I don't know. I just like I wonder if like somebody who actually identifies as a trad wife if they, if they personally identify as a trad wife. Does that make sense? Like where I'm like if I like just like the things like. Well, Nara would be a perfect example. She was like, she was like, yo, I just didn't think it was that serious.

And I, like, she's like, she's like, I work, I provide for my family. I'm doing these things. They're not online. Honestly, like, a real tradwife is subservient to her husband. I mean, that's what, like, that's what it is. That's what, like, the one, like, real. Sure. Like, the real sort of, like, traditional family values is you're respecting your version of

traditional family values. I can't say that I've watched a shit ton of trad wife videos, but is that the, theme that they're leaning into? I am not on that side. The subservient aspect, or is it more about sourdough? That's what I'm saying. The real ones are probably the subservient aspect. The ones that just like sourdough are baking sourdough.

I feel like a truly authentic. But it does seem like people are throwing a lot of these labels on people who are making sour sourdough and they're like, wait, I never said I was. That's what I'm saying. I don't think an actual traditional wife is going around calling herself a trad wife. I just think that that's like a part of like, hey, I wake up in the morning. I go collect eggs from the thing. I make my kids breakfast.

I set my pack my husband lunch. Like if that's what you do on a day to day basis, you just call that a day, a daily routine. It's not like, I'm like, oh my God, today as a trad wife, day one. Like, so that's what I'm saying where I'm like, I think the whole like as Nara being satire, it's like, again, it's a bit. It's a persona that she's playing into.

I know most women that are cooking and making videos on the internet about cleaning and all that stuff. It's whether it's relatable or whether it's just like, okay, this is what I did a day in my life. No one's like, day in a life of a child wife, 243. Like, it's just, no. We are obsessed with labeling people. I think it's more to make ourselves, I don't know, feel better about our choices.

I don't know. It's wild, but stop it. For happier existence just keeps sweating. Well, before we get to our first guest, don't forget the Valfaus Plus is available in ad-free for all of you sick. I'm just kidding. Okay, West Wilson. For all you awesome, like people with good taste.

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You'll be glad you did. Up next, Dr. Pamela Baker joins us to help us continue the conversation about Kyle and Amanda in their marriage. we had some thoughts, like we mentioned, talking about in the city reunion and had some opinions about what it meant about Kyle and Amanda not engaging in kind of sex and their marriage and why that might have happened and what it means. Dr. Baker chimed in the comments and was like, hey, I got some thoughts. And we were like, well, why don't you come on the show and share it? So she's up next. Dr. Baker, welcome the show.

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. We're very excited to have you. we were talking about in the city last week and and we were like if anyone's listening who's an expert who actually has an expert opinion on some of the things we're talking about, chime in and you so graciously raised your hand and engaged in the comments. So we were like, come on the show. To get started, can you just tell our audience a little bit about yourself, kind of your, you know, your expertise, your background and the qualifications you bring to this

interview? Sure. I'm happy to do that. My name is Dr. Pamela Baker. And I'm I'm a licensed psychologist in the state of Florida. So I received my undergraduate degree from the University of Miami. Go Keynes. Woo-hoo! And then I went on to receive my master's and doctoral degree from Nova Southeastern University, which is in Davy, Florida. And now I'm working in private practice.

I'm an expert in the field of anxiety disorders, depression, trauma-related issues. couples therapy, family counseling, things related to the LGBTQI aid community, the like. I'm a generalist. I do work with children, adolescents, and adults. So that's a little glimpse. Awesome. You seem perfectly qualified to have this conversation, and we're not qualified. We have it all the time.

So anyways, we were talking about Kyle and Amanda, and they, you know, I thought that was a really interesting conversation where they, you know, they kind of admitted that very early in their marriage, that physical intimacy played almost no part of that relationship. And we were kind of discussing and trying to debating, what does that mean, what does that look like? How does a couple end up in that situation? And we had some, like, you know, theories about, like, is this like a love language thing? Is this a compatibility thing?

I'm just curious, when you listened to that conversation between Kyle and Amanda, from an expert's point of view, what was your takeaway? And I guess what was your analysis of what they were bringing to that conversation? Okay, so if we're referring specifically to the second part of the reunion in the city, what I saw immediately was the lack of communication, the lack of connection. So what does intimacy mean to you might be different than what it means to me, different for Kyle, different from Amanda.

If you watch that clip again, you can see very clearly, she starts to explain the why, right? And what happens is immediately Kyle jumps in and instead of listening or reflecting what he heard her say or validating her opinion, her thoughts, her feelings, he immediately goes into a totally different subject of explaining, you know, going into his thoughts, his feeling. So immediately there's a disconnect. There's a lot going on there where she gets

interrupted, not only by him, but then Andy, and listen, I love Andy Cohen, so don't get it twisted. The man can do no wrong in my opinion. However, then she gets bulldozed and there's a problem there because she's not able to sort of advocate for herself in a really healthy, confident, self-aware manner. She lets it happen, and then people are laughing, and then the message gets lost. You know, and then we hear Kyle's side of things, which had nothing to do with her explanation, which is okay. His opinion is important, too.

But the laugh of connection and communication is the root of this, really, truly. What was her explanation? It's been a few weeks now since I've seen it. Was it the cheating, or I forget what it was, that she started to explain it. explain where she got caught off. Well, I mean, I'm sure you remember Dr. Baker. I just remember it as like, it was like a lack of, not in that foreplay, but there was like no romance.

He wanted to be courted. It was just like a lot of, you know. He would come home late and just want to hook up kind of a thing. Yeah, I would just. It's like, right? She kind of felt like there was more like this kind of expectation of sex as if it was like a responsibility she had in the marriage rather than something they as a couple enjoyed together. Yeah.

She starts to say, you know, I want to be courted. I asked for dates. I asked for time and speaking during the day. And instead of listening to any of that, then she, he interrupts her. And then she comments about, she was unhappy about his drinking, his parting. But that wasn't even the point. But then he latched onto it. And then he says immediately, well,

Of course, so now I'm an alcoholic and I'm a workaholic. So again, he misses his opportunity to connect and to hear her. And he goes into, you know, his kind of defense mode, which, you know, it's a human impulse to do that, of course, is very understandable. We all do that. But I can see in that one moment that that's the pattern of interaction and engagement, the dynamic that they've established together. I know we're seeing it at the end of the relationship, obviously, but that's problematic. Another thing that we kind of talked about was just like we almost tried to, I guess, I suppose, label their marriage after we learned that their seemingly was zero intimacy

for all these years. And we, I guess, tried to talk about, like, the authenticity of their relationship. We even suggested that maybe like, oh, well, man, they're not intimate at all. maybe is this like a showman's like are they to you know they talk so much about oh saving their fights for the show and clearly so much of the relationship is centered around this show i'm curious from your point of view when you heard about just the lack of any intimacy how did you see that relationship like is this something that's fairly common or not common and how can i can you have a successful marriage without any intimacy whatsoever and for

people who I guess are still staying together but not trying to close that gap or close that disconnection, how do you see that relationship? It really depends on the person. Again, we have to get into labeling and understanding what does intimacy mean to you? So if you really listen, it sounds like intimacy potentially. It starts emotion wise, even for men, even if they don't realize it, you actually said something smart when you were speaking about it, that men want to be respect And Kyle does, and that's totally fair. He keeps saying, he keeps sending the message that, I'm the man, I'm the red winner, I'm going out and really working hard and doing my best, and you're not understanding that.

So that to him seem really important. And to her, him being out and working all day and not communicating is him not connecting to her. And it's like a missed opportunity. So intimacy starts there. It's a seed, right? He needs to feel like you understand, I'm doing this for our family. I'm doing this for our future. And she wasn't seeing that.

She was kind of defining that as you're absent from our connection and our marriage. So that's a problem. And then same thing for her. You know, she doesn't feel that she's connecting to him that he's courting her. He's dating. He did it, da, da. So can you have a successful marriage without intimacy? No, no, because the physical part, especially for women,

is not going to happen oftentimes without that emotional connection first. Yeah. What do you make of the fact that they stuck in this relationship for so long without having any of this intimacy? And it kind of gave that they both kind of gave up on even trying to have the intimacy they both required. Like to your point, intimacy clearly meant two different things to each. other and they kind of seemingly always bulldozed over each other's you know

explanation of what it meant to them but yet they decided to maintain this relationship there clearly is like despite this all the things that they don't have in this relationship where they always used to they always and even now post relationship have the have a respect there is a there's clearly they care about each other they they do respect each other they they weirdly want what's best for each other despite all these disconnects in a relationship, which is just kind of fascinating.

And what do you make of that? Well, I think you nailed it in terms of the showman's. They admitted it, even in that reunion. They said that we're used to sort of going in to this season and putting things on the back burner and masking the presentation of like on her, what was it, his birthday or her birthday? I think it was his birthday. Where you remember that he was terrible to her the night before.

said very abusive things in the bathroom and all of that, like I called her names and she was able to flip the switch the next day. That was a perfect glimpse about what they do on a regular. Is it for the show? Yeah, maybe. But I also think it's a part of their personality. They like to present a certain way, but then they don't really get to the root of their issues.

They don't talk about what their boundaries are. you know, again, how to connect and what's not acceptable. So having watched the show from it's from the beginning, obviously there's clearly a disconnect that happens, whether it was the cheating and Amanda accepting him back into life and accepting the proposal and, you know, not breaking up after that. We're kind of talking about how, hey, it's really hard, obviously, to forgive somebody for some sort of indiscretion in such a way, let alone. to completely forget about it.

But at the same time, if you're going to choose to marry somebody and spend the rest of your life with them, we're seeing a constant where from in the city to the reunion that Amanda constantly is talking about a disconnect from when before they got married and that Kyle's talking about the disconnect post-marriage. With seeing those two things, I guess my question more so is that not that there's a fault to be had, but like, is it possible that these two people, right, have both the the downfall of their relationship at different stages. And maybe the therapy at the end of their marriage is like what maybe we're starting

to see the full picture. But I'm like, there's clearly been a disconnect throughout their relationship. There's clearly no communication. So was there ever a way for them to come back from where they're at or like from what they were experiencing or to get on the same page? Because I feel like even at the end of their marriage, that's kind of the main point is that they were never capable of getting on the same page. but if two people are hurt by different things throughout their relationship,

was it inevitable that they would end up being divorced? It's never inevitable. Of course, we never know. But it's kind of like when you enter into relationship, you should already work on building the skills. So establishing what's acceptable in your relationship, what the boundaries are. And what are the expectations?

Because going into their marriage, she likely thought that things would change when they got married, that's tricky. You have to really be communicating about that. And if you're not able to express that effectively, and I'm not blaming her, this is anybody, hypothetically speaking, you have to be comfortable, confident, strong to be able to advocate and say, you know what, if I'm entering into this marriage, I'm having the expectation than in a couple years, we're not really going to be drinking, or not going to really be parting,

or not going to be doing X, Y, Z. And if you're not clear about that, it's, you know, really not fair. They're seeing things totally different. Right. Kind of piggybacking out what Sierra was asking. I imagine, because it seems like Kyle and Amanda are whenever, like they got in a couple's therapy,

it seems like very late in the relationship, probably too late. I imagine you experience this a lot as a couple's therapist, but it seems like a lot of people when they enter in couples therapy, their goal isn't closing the gap or being more connected. Their goal is to find a referee to agree with them

and then tell their partner that, see, I was right. And it feels like that's very much Kyle and Amanda. I imagine you deal with that a lot in couples therapy. When you do, say a couple walks in and you get a sense that they were both looking for the referee and they're hoping

that you will be team them, how do you address that head on? And have you ever been or is it pretty impossible to try to change that mindset to realize, I don't agree with either of you. And if you don't change your expectations or what you want out of this, I really, I'm not going to be able to help you. How do you have that conversation with a couple that clearly comes in wanting to be right and looking for an advocate rather than looking for a therapist?

It's a very good question because that absolutely happens. most of the time. So I appeal to that and I say, listen, you can't go in expecting the other person to change. It's not going to happen. You have to go in owning your part and really taking pride in that. It's not even altruistic because I try to build the person up individually by you want to feel like your best self. you want to progress, you want to develop, you want to be emotionally mature and intelligent. And so I make it a positive thing that they, what does that mean, take accountability and

responsibility for what they're bringing to the table, them, not pointing the finger. So I make that a positive thing rather than I'm going to go in and be on the defense mode, and this makes me a bad person, and my ego can't handle that. And then I reinforce when they're able to do that. And then I use an analogy of look for the key what the person provides you. When they say something that upset them that you did, oh, instead of saying, oh, my God, I didn't do that, which is, you know, the normal reaction, right? Instead say, wow, that's a key.

They're literally offering me in my hand. What can I do about that? Do I feel comfortable doing that? Am I okay with what they're asking? is the behavior, the action that they're wanting me to do? Like one thing Kyle said that stuck out to me is, well, this is just me. Anybody can say that. But do you go to the gym and work out and be your best self, lift some weights?

Yeah. Same thing emotionally. It's not just you. If you want to grow as a person and then grow as a couple, you have to have that. Yeah. I always think that the kiss of death in a relationship is talking poorly about your partner, especially when they're not present. And I feel like that was a constant theme we've seen,

especially in the last four seasons, once things kind of started to get bad between the two of them. And like what would advice, what would advice that you would give to a couple knowing that that's how they behave about each other in public? Respect. So again, that's something that could be communicated in therapy. Like how can we respect each other

if that means when we're out in a public situation, especially if you're on a reality show, God, help us, you know. We're just not, we're just not going to do that. You know, we're going to speak to each other, you know, that even if you table it. And if you say, okay, that really upset me, but honey, let's, you know, talk about it later. I even say like a code word so that you know you're saying to your partner, this is okay. But we'll talk about it behind closed doors because we just don't throw each other.

under the bus. And we don't take pleasure in that, like gathering people to be on our side. We're supposed to be on each other's side, right? Yeah. That's why I find it to be so, like, shocking. Because to your point, I just don't know how, especially in the Bravo world, how couples are able to survive. Because, like, how do you agree to go on as a couple? Agree to be interesting. maintain that level of respect that you hope you have coming in to a merit and to this like show and then know that you will be you know specifically asked to talk about your partner

like the whole like every professional is basically so who are you willing to talk shit about you know and if you're made and if your major storyline is your relationship then you're going to be asked to do that and I can't it's whatever whoever couples I don't know if you watch obviously a lot of Are there couples in reality TV that stand out to you as I don't know how they do it, but they seem to do it right knowing that they have so much pressure to talk shit and to complain

and to nitpick and just kind of be vulnerable at the risk of throwing their partners under the bus. That's really sad that I can't think of so. I have one. I have one. Oh, wait, I'm ready. I want to hear. Heather and Terry Dubrow.

Right? Meredith and Seth Marks. Yeah, that's what like, because there was that scene, I think it was last season, where they were at a doctor's officer or whatever, and Terry got snippy, and Heather was like, we don't do this, like, you know, and people wanted to come for them being like,

you're fake, you're hiding aspects of your life, your marriage isn't perfect. But I do think that you do have a responsibility to your relationship when you are showcasing something on reality television for millions to have an opinion on, that I'm like, you have to protect something and keep something secret.

So if it's like, hey, we'll get involved in other people's mess, but we're not bringing our mess directly to the table. And we're definitely not going to nitpick each other to give everybody some fodder to go off of. Yeah. Which is what I think Heather and Terry did.

The authenticity is the fact that they don't do that. Exactly. You know, it's just like, hey, yeah, no, we like everyone else fight and we know each other and we get on each other's nerves. But what we won't do is give you the audience to throw each other on the bus. so you feel that I'm authentic as an individual.

Right. But I think that brings so much scrutiny from the audience. Like people hate it. People are like truly calling people fake. Even like Nia and Danny. Like obviously there's a lot of things that they need to work on in their relationship. But like she really doesn't air her stuff out with him. And she stands up for him like time and time again.

Whether you agree with their relationship or not, like she she's not going to bring their drama to the show. And they're even stepping away because they're like this is. is actually not good for our family dynamic. Yeah. Have you been watching the Valley at all? Of course I have. I know exactly what you're talking about. First of all, the Heather and Terry thing, I totally agree.

You know, Heather obviously is, you know, she's an actress, and they're both very poised, very professional and very smart. And I actually respect them too for doing that. I really do. And I do believe that it is not let go behind closed doors because she's a strong woman. She's going to bring it up. It's not going to be like, I love that. And with the Nia situation, also, she's a pageant, you know, she's in the pageant world.

She also knows how to present herself very well. And that's important to her. And that's okay. It's beautiful. Not everybody likes that, but I don't really care. As long as it works for the couple, you know, is it more exciting when it's dramatic for the audience? Yeah, of course. Right.

But it's not healthy. I was going to say, as a couple's therapist watching the valley, Is that one of the harder ones for you to watch? Because you're like, I wish we could sit down and talk about this? Or is it like there's just so many different examples of relationship dynamics, maybe not on the more positive side? Interesting. Loaded question.

I don't know. Are you asking about, like, in general, all of them? Or would I want to specifically sit down with one of them? Because I think it could be oafful or interesting. Just in general. Like, it's somebody that's like, why? because like I obviously am not a couple's therapist and I have a lot of opinions on what I'm seeing because it's just it's almost a different level of I don't want to just say fully toxicity but it is

it's almost like I just see so many different degrees of things where I'm like oh this could probably be dealt with if they would just sit down and talk about this instead of talking about it with them or whatever but I'm just like I don't think I've seen so many couples dynamics that I'm just kind of like what's the word I'm looking for like where it's like it's almost like they're all just like passing around a hot potato, but like no one's actually dealing with their stuff. So I couldn't imagine being a couple's therapist wanting to weigh in on that. Like is it a hard watch? Yeah. Well, yeah. Of course I want to sit all of them down. But do they ever do that? I'm not sure. Obviously, we just get a slice of their life, which is exciting. And potentially they do have some of

those skills. I don't want to, you know, assume that they don't. But when watching the Valley, which couple do you think has the healthiest dynamic? Ooh. Good question. Lala. With her babies. Yeah. I was going to say there's not really a lot.

Well, I guess there are a lot of couples, but I'm like, which couple do you think is the worst dynamic? Oh, I would never say that. First of all, I would label it as which couple has the most room for broke? Yes, there we go. That's what we wanted to ask. Yes. Yeah.

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Actually, I lied. I lied, though. I thought about it for a second. There we go.

I think that they have just so much to handle in terms of so many children and the recent move. That's a lot. Then I was thinking the Kristen situation is really difficult, that relationship. What part? Well, obviously, it sounds like she's experiencing potentially some postpartum stuff, which is very normal. common of course reasonable but it sounds like there's obviously a disconnect there in terms of his again expectations he could never know what it's going to be like when you have children and how those

you know everyday things are going to change their connection is going to change but they are definitely not on the same page and i hope i hope the therapy helps i'm proud of them for pursuing it and trying to work on it but it's it's hard I mean, I'm curious, if a Kristen and Luke type of a couple came into your office, what do you say to the looks? And I only say this because maybe it's a product of me growing up a lot of sisters, I don't fucking know, or having a lot of women friends. But Natalie just gave birth to twins. We have a daughter. There's a lot going on right now.

It just like didn't need to be, I just feel like the explanation is like, yo, dude, chill out. I don't like what do you, I just feel like how do you get a guy who maybe has what feels like these unreasonable expectations of how their woman partner are supposed to show up postpartum in the bedroom. And I, I feel like the explanation is, hey, you just need to understand better. There's not a lot of nuance to like telling the guy that like right now, now's not the time to prioritize your physical intimacy. Like, but how, as a therapist, I'm sure you're more nuanced than, you know, a friend would be.

How do you have that conversation knowing that you're trying to have him hear you? But do you also feel ever compelled to just be like, chill the fuck out, dude? Like, just like telling him, you know, you know what I'm saying? Because like, I just, why do we need to walk? I just feel like this is, this is common. college, you know, like, but yet, wait, I love this though. I love this. I had a patient years ago that used to say to me, he was talking to me about his wife situation, he would say to me, Dr. Beeger, it's common sense. And I would say to him, I hear you, but common sense is even a term

that's subjective. What your common sense is, is different than and he's like, no. It does not make sense absolutely not and i want to tell you first of all congratulations uh i did see that and i love something you said the other day i do listen to your podcast and you're like see you in six months yeah i mean you know it's like and it's cool it's fine and again to your point there's also it's just a zillion other ways to demonstrate intimacy and and if nothing else like what would nali and i try to do is contain to let the other person know that we look forward to

whenever that day is that allows us to get back to like what feels maybe more normal when it comes to the physical intimacy for what normal is for us at least and there are times where we are good at that and there are times where we're not you know and when we're not we we check in

you know it's like are you still you know you're still hot for me type of thing but like you you know it's just I'm I am blown away that it seems to not land with so many men out there. And I am just curious, a professional like you, how do you get through to men who are more traditional, I suppose, or just a little bit more dense when it comes to, or maybe they just didn't have a mom or a girlfriend to let them know, like, yo, you might have to, you might have to chill out a little bit.

Yeah, how do you have that conversation? Great question. I would go back to what I said earlier. It sounds so simple, but when I say find the key, if you go into the conversation like, listen, I need to have sex, this has been too long, I'm dying, you suck, I cannot handle this. And if she's going, and I cannot have sex, you're not understanding me. I'm going through so much stuff everywhere. No. If you go in, it's okay, nothing is going to be solved. If you go in saying, how can I find the key to connect. So what does that mean? It's compromised potentially, but it's like, listen, if he goes and saying, I really need some kind of physical connection, it's really hard. I feel outside of things. And honestly, that happens a lot with men when the woman has a baby. The attention and focus changes.

It does. The dynamic, the energy changes. And that's hard for some men. It really is. But then he needs to be honest and talk about it's okay for him to feel that it's always okay for you to think and feel anything but then you can't push it how can we you know meet in the middle somehow is there something that he can ask for that she is comfortable okay honey so i know you can't have sex like vaginal sex meaty is there other like connections that we can do that you are are okay that's the key thing if you focus on just what you want you're going to it's you're going to it's you're you're done. Question.

And I just thought of this when you mentioned this. Yeah. That some men feel like, you know, the attention drifts a little bit from them. Uh-huh. Do you find that the men who feel that way more often than not are not, are maybe leaning into traditional roles and are not as maybe is hands on in terms of helping around the house? I only ask that because, like, I'm a really, like, Nail and I, as much as

we can share the responsibilities of everything that happens in our household. And again, I'm only speaking to my personal experience, but like, I have not felt that lack of attention or lack of prioritization in my direction, but I think it's because we're just, we're doing everything together. So I just don't, you know, like, that connection comes from us doing things together. And I feel like that way. I've never, I just have never felt like, the kids are getting more attention than me. And I think it's just because we're just sharing so much of the responsibilities where I wonder if a guy who is just like, well, I guess, you know, I don't know, I don't do diapers and I don't

do this or yada, yada, yada, yada. Do you, does that make sense? Am I making sense? Is that or is that not the case? No, I would say a couple variables come into play, though. So some things I know about you specifically, I think that you grew up in a very big family. Is that accurate? Correct.

Yeah. Okay. Had a lot of siblings. Yeah. So those things play a huge role. Also, you mentioned that you had sisters. My brother is the most amazing man ever and he's wonderful with women, like very kind, very thoughtful, very sensitive, but also like a masculine guy. He has three sisters.

And he was very close to his mom. Those variables are really important in terms of those dynamics. You had to share. You had to understand that your... opinion, your, what you were interested, what you wanted was not always the priority. It had to be divided with siblings. It had to be understood in a bigger context. So it's just there are so many variables that come into, it's a nature versus nurture kind

of idea, but somebody maybe that grew up with like one brother and they're like, I mean, I'm, you know, being stereotyping. Sure, oversimplifying, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I imagine that of having a sister or women friends is a green flag for a lot of you. Whenever a guy has multiple sisters, I've always said they show up different in relationships. There's so much sweeter and more empathetic to my experience as a woman. That's how I've felt.

You know, it's fun. I mean, I have two brothers, right? And one of my brother, like my oldest brother is 13 years older than me. So like it was less with that. But when my closest brother in age to me, who's eight years older than me, started dating his like now wife, it was just so funny to see him be like that guy kind of that like me, my mom and my sisters had been like kind of forcing him to be. And just watching him react completely different to her than to us is like the sweetest thing. Like to watch like the guy like I will be. He is the person I may be meanest to in the entire world.

But no one else could be. And like, for sure. I love that. Like, I have, I can do that. And then, like, to, and then he'll be awful back to me, but it's like, fine. And then to watch him, like, to know that it actually works. You know what I mean? You've been training him.

Yeah. To know that, like, you know, the training works. I suppose some guys who don't have sisters or grow up with women friends when they get into a relationship. Clueless. And, yeah, they just have. have a complete lack of everything seems stupid to them or I don't know what it like it's fascinating or you see them in the real like there'll be other times where you'll see like someone who grew up with sisters like do that thing that pisses you off and it's been really also awesome to get to be the

sister to be like hey don't let them talk to you like that and she's like I know yeah well dr. Baker this has been really interesting I appreciate you taking the time always always great to have someone with your expertise giving us some takes and all the shows that we love to watch. Absolutely. It was such a pleasure. Again, congratulations. And I hope that you and your wife and the kiddos are doing well. And I'm happy to contribute any time. I'm here. I'm watching it all. Keep popping off in the comments. We appreciate your takes and always love the discourse. Dr. Baker, where can people find you, follow you if that's something you're interested in? Yeah, you can follow me. I'm Pammy Lee, P-A-M-M-M-Y-L-E.

A-I-I-G-H on Instagram. I don't really do TikTok, although I do watch them all. And yeah, my email is Dr. Pamela Lee Baker at g-mail.com, and you can catch me there. All right. Well, thanks for taking the time, Dr. Baker.

I appreciate you. Enjoy it. It had so much fun. All right. Take care. All right. Take care. Bye-bye.

Look getting professional. Love that. I feel like I just had a session. Yeah, right. Professional perspectives on the shows that I watch thinking. I am a psychologist. Analyzing, yeah.

Because I also have theory. I like to share. I'm just watching The Valley and why I don't think it's doing very well or why I think it's a hard watch for a lot of people. I kind of feel like, and maybe tell me if you agree, disagree, but I was like, I think it's just, I'm watching a group of people, right, in their late 30s, early 40s, that don't really seem like they have a lot going on outside of being involved in each other's relationships,

which really presents this. toxic, constant need to be talking about each other. But like, we have nothing really to root for with these couples. They're too, their job is being on TV. Yeah. And they're like too invested in each other's stories, but it doesn't feel like these people like hang out in a way that it comes from a place of concern. It feels like everything is a pitch for a storyline.

And if we could, if we grab onto this, then this is what we're going to be following. But I'm just like, I'm like, Britney has a podcast. Who does it on that cast? It's like, you know, Nia's going off to the beauty pageant things. I'm like, why are we not following these people while they're doing other things outside of just fighting with each other? Because then maybe it would make them be a little bit more aspirational, maybe a little something that like... Well, rounded. Yeah, like, makes you want to root for these people.

Well, Michelle and Jesse, you know, they are in real estate. But, like, I think, and I know that I know that they would, they talked about real estate more than it was shown. Yeah. So maybe that's a producer choice. I do think, like... But is it? Isn't the Valley by default kind of about these relationships, though? So that would make sense if that's what they're framing it for, I guess, with their intention, regardless of it.

But it's too much. I agree with Sierra. It's almost like, well, one, it's a cast that predominantly has been on TV for a very long time. Yeah. And that is primarily their, like, their job is being on TV. Also, since they were, like, dating and younger, too. It's, like, kind of all they know, right? Yeah, yeah.

And then, like, yeah, a lot of them have podcasts, but that's kind of an extension of their influencing type of life. But yeah, I think what's made like say housewives so fascinating is that many of them, like we are interested in their lives and they do seem to be willing to talk about their life outside of these relationships. Yes, the relationships are things that we care most about and the friendship dynamics. But to your point, yeah, it just, it feels very forced and almost too toxic and there's just no, there's no like positive. There's nothing that you're like rooting for these, not even just as couples, but as individuals. You know what I mean?

Like where it's like, I want to see you thrive. I want to see you doing well. And then it's like, oh, I like that I have to bring myself down to this level to have this fight at someone's birthday party or whatever. And a great example of that in comparison would be Summerhouse. You watched Paige start off as an influencer to where she's ended up now. You've watched Carl go from a complete fuckboy to, you know, a business owner, an entrepreneur. And it's just like, so even if we're seeing bad or toxic traits or whatever and seeing people

work through them to get on the other side, I think, is also a part of the thing that makes you fall in love with a cast of reality television and to grow with them. Yeah. But like, we're three seasons in and I'm like, like, Kristen has a full on clothing company. I'm like, if Luke and farming and whatever he does with his family, like, I'm just like, I just feel like there's so many other elements that could make these people and their couples, a couple dynamics so much more interesting. And instead, we're so focused on them hating each other and like destroying each other's relationships. that it's demonizing it. Like, Leon Denning is a perfect example.

It's just like clearly, like most relationships, they have some flaws as a relationship, they have some flaws as individuals, but the way they are just demonized and again labeled and like they're, they don't even talk about other aspects of the relationship. How did these two people love each other enough to start a family, have four kids under four,

and up until recently, seemingly make it work? Yeah. You know? And that requires so many healthy decisions and so much. But the way they are highlighted is so. Every couple, it's like pigeonholed to their darkest moments. Yeah, it is. And it's just like, it's just not enjoyable to watch without, you need the duality.

You need the light to counteract the darkness. And that show has just become so dark that it's like, and I mean this like in the nicest way, but it's like the fact that like Jesse and Michelle seem like the healthiest relationship. relationship dynamics on that show after we watch It's inauthentic. You know what I mean? If we watched the worst season they could possibly have had and the worst divorce and all of that to like where we're at now and it's just like I again I just I feel like you need something to root for

if we're going to talk about the breakdowns of relationships or friendships. And I talk about this a lot on just Bravo in general. It's just like I don't know. I mean like Chris and Luke are friends very careful. I mean I don't know them that well. So I haven't talked to them about this. But for all I know and it wouldn't shock. me is if like for storyline, Luke has had to lean in to this postpartum issue that they've had

and he's not as dense as he's coming across about, you know, or he's not as unempathetic to Kristen's needs as he's coming across because like that's the storyline. Because we need something. And to another comparison from what you were saying earlier, it was like think of Vanderpump rules, for example, right? The restaurant is the location. the place that brings all these people together. It's the explanation as to how these people are in each other's lives.

But then it's like, oh, we followed Jackson Stasi. We follow Kristen and Tom, Tom and Katie. And then you have the girls' friendships in between that. And then it's like the drama that comes in with the Shinas or what I mean, where it's like the way that you introduce more characters. And it's, you kind of want to see. But then you've got Shina wanting to be a pop star. It's just like a multi-level, like, nuanced, layered show that you want to watch.

And I wonder like, well, no. No, no, no, no. Well, Vanderpump was in the Valley, obviously, as an extension of Vanderpump, kind of lost that main sort. They lost Sir. What do you do? Like, they don't work at the restaurant anymore. What are they doing? But they got famous from working at a restaurant, and now they are too famous to work at a restaurant. But that was the thing is, think about them working at a restaurant or trying to be famous. It was the fact that they were all aspiring actors, models, musicians. So it's like in between seeing them at their shifts and going through the normal drama. You got Santaval doing the worst short film you've ever seen. Yeah, like your friends.

recording sessions, you've got aspiring DJs, you've got club nights for things for drama to come down. Like, you know what I mean? Where I'm like there's in... The valley, they're not doing anything anymore. It just feels like you guys are just sitting on your couch is talking to your significant other about how much worse another couple is than you. Because of being 30 and having a

family was just about talking shit about your friends. And that's just not real life. I could understand how anybody in their 20s watching the valley is like, fuck, is this what I have to look forward to? Can I be really honest with you guys? The reason I have a hard time watching the Valley is because like I am so terrified that's what my life would turn into one day like

I can't watch it like it literally like makes me want to bomb dot com like it's not an accurate depiction I think of like friend groups of friend groups of what it's just stop hanging out with those people 100% I wouldn't be around them yeah I mean most of the adult life your your friend group does get smaller and as your life gets busier and busier it's just sometimes you want to hang out with friends but you know if if if if you and your friends decided to have kids or whatever that sometimes just makes it difficult to like all get together on a Thursday night like you used to but like for the ones who are lucky enough to still be able to do that you only do that because it's fun and enjoyable and it's just like you get to mix things up and as if like yeah these people like only get together to just right ruin each other's lives

is like even the scene with nia coming over to talk to Kristen and whatnot like they both just had babies. Like you would think that you would pose this under like a baby play date or something like cutesy and fun. It just felt like Mia walked in with her baby on for them to be like, hey, this is what people are saying about your husband. And she's like, well, this is too much for me. I'm going to go. Yeah. And it's just like, you know what I mean? There's no intention there. There's no like when I have my friends over, I don't have my friends over to sit them down and be like, hey, this is what everyone's saying about you. It's like, you come over. I probably have food set out for you. We're going to have drinks. We're going to go sit on the balcony.

We're going to go walk to a restaurant. Whatever we're going to go do. It's like there's a plan, and not just like, hey, now that you're here, how do you feel about Michelle? Right. You know, I'm just like... No, it's like you're getting a margarita. And then 45 minutes of that conversation, you're going to be talking about nothing. And then you're like, oh, by the way, can we just like, quick thing on Michelle? Thank you.

Like, that's that... And then you move on. Exactly. Like, I wonder sometimes about the valley if it's... You know, kind of when you tell your friends about your relationship, you'll tell them about the stuff that's stressing you out because you want to talk to people about it. And you maybe kind of tell them too much about that and not enough about the right stuff. and then they'll be like, well, that sounds really bad. Leave him.

No, no, no, no, no. Like, I just told you the shitty parts. Is that just the valley in a show? Like, if I'm just showing the bad parts of these relationships and we don't get to see any of the normal good stuff? Or like any gross. Or the friendships. That's what I feel like, too. Again, to give credit to Michelle and Jesse, where I'm like even then, still rocky, still messy.

I'm just like, you just really don't have an obviously I love Kristen, so I'm not including her in this. But I'm just like, it is where I'm like, you're not really. watching a range of any growth whatsoever. It's just another year and another of the same, oh, you don't like Janet again. Okay. So here we go. Like Janet, yes, she may not be palatable for most people. She's giving you something to talk about on this show. So I'm just, you know what I mean? Like, at least she's showing up for work. So I'm just kind of like, I don't know, I'm just kind of over it. And then I'm sorry if I'm just going to bring up the one thing on the finale with Danny where I'm just like, I'm sorry, these people aren't your friends, right? If they talk to you

this way, they make you feel this way, they make you feel like you have to hide your drinking. If I have to film one last hurrah with these people at a Halloween party, you know what I'm probably not going to do? Get blackout wasted to the point where I can't put together a sentence and then be surprised that somebody threw a drink at me or that something escalated. And then to make your statement weeks before that you're not coming back to the show because the show's the problem with your relationship. And then it's like to see that, hey, you have an entire group of people that cannot wait for a camera to turn on to talk about what a mess you are of drinking. And then you give them exactly that for the finale. like I too would walk away. Huh?

That's crazy. He did that. Yeah, he literally is like blackout drunk, can't put together a sentence. But you know that they filmed that post, damn it? No, they put, they, they've released a statement saying that they weren't coming back to the show a few weeks ago. But I think that they said that because they like obviously seeing the trajectory of where the show was going with their dynamic. They were like, no, like we're putting a stop to it where I was like, maybe your decision to walk away. But I'm like, I would have walked away regardless knowing that this was.

the finale. Well, it does seem like, to your point, maybe he does, in fact, have some kind of problem. That's what I'm saying. If I knew that I would be under ridiculed based off of my drinking, I definitely would not, the last time that I'm filming with this group of people can blackout wasted to prove their point. Yeah, that's what I mean. He probably does, in fact, have a problem.

But to the other point, they're more than just this problem. Exactly. But it only gets taught. I mean, it's just. But the bigger point is like, yeah, it's unbelievable. It's not believable that these people are. actually friends. Exactly. It just looks like they all got casted to be on a show. Yeah.

To cause drama. And that's just not, it doesn't work if that's the, no friend group would exist in such a manner, let alone that I'm like, I just, I know the paycheck is worth it, but I'm just like at this point, it's just, it's not believable. Yeah, they need to be more well-rounded. Well, a show we are watching and enjoying is married at first

site. And we have Dr. Lisa with us to talk about the show in in general, the kind of fascinating aspect of how people just agree to show up and get married and figure it the fuck out afterwards. It is a captivating show. We are super into it. And we have Dr. Lisa up next to talk all about it. Dr. Lisa, welcome the show.

Nick, I am so excited to talk to you. Oh, my God. Likewise. Likewise. Likewise. I'm loving this show. I can't believe I slept on married at first sight for so long. I can't believe you slept on it either.

I need a little foreplay, though. I want to, like, warm up with you because you and I have stuff in common before, I mean, we can go right in. No, please, I need the foreplay. I don't get the sleep I need, so I need to wake me up. It's early, yeah. Watch how unsexy my foreplay is. I too have twins. Do you? That's awesome. How old are yours? How old are yours? So I have, I heard you and I have like a big parallel. I'm going to stack it up so I can blow your mind. I also have an age difference in my marriage. I have one older son.

And then we have twins right after. So mine are all boys, but I have the older and then the twins. Mine are also teenagers now. Oh, wow. But you have the all boy thing and I have the all girl thing. And you have the older thing and then the two twins after. Yeah. Wow.

How are you holding up? That's what I really want to know. How are you doing? Objectively great. Yeah. Like great. But like on a daily basis. Pretty good.

Yeah. Like Rivers, like River. She said be honest. River is like, it's like the best age. she's two and a half and like she's so cute and like and obviously now like really bonding both with me and Natalie she's always bonded with Natalie but now I'm definitely been like at the beneficiary of like her feeling totally you know but she's also only two and a half and I do you have any expertise in child psychology I mean I am a classically trained clinician so I can I can meet you

wherever you need to be well she's like only two and a half and it's my understanding that at her age, her brain's a little like, you know, it's new. It's, it's underdeveloped. And she's like, feel like she's in this kind of weird gray area where she's, she's pretty sharp. So she's learning things pretty quickly. And so as parents, it's like, you know, but she knows how to not listen. And she's kind of, you, she's becoming more self-aware. And, and I think we're just very confused on like, is she too young to punish? Like, she like likes to talk back. And she's just, she's turning into a real, you know. Sassy. And it's, yeah, there's some challenges with, you know, because it's like, we obviously wanted to start listening, but it's like, is it, is she too young? Like, are we, are we wasting her time with these lessons yet? I don't know. No. And it's also like really cute. And that's, you know. Right. You'll strike the balance. Yeah. And then the twins, the crying. It's, it's. They're so cute. But it's like, oh my God. Really? And they're crying twice.

There's two. Oh, my God. But anyways, they're all lovely. And it kills a relationship. I mean, yeah, you're a family, but sexy, it's not for now. We're doing okay on that department. We both have the can't wait mentality. So there's that.

So the fire is still cooking, so to speak. All right. We haven't heated anything up lately. No, I was not thinking you had, but my condolences until that time comes again. It will be so good, though. Yeah, no, yeah, I can't wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it.

That was my foreplay. I was like, we have connection. I mean, it's a landed. I love it. I love it. We'll have to, uh, hopefully, maybe, maybe this will be part one of an ongoing friendship and relationship between the vibe. I have a feeling. I have a feeling.

Again, just like, I can't believe I slept on married at first sight. What a fascinating show. I'm kind of convinced this was maybe the future of love and dating, Dr. Lisa. What do you think? It's kind of amazing, right? So I think it's maybe the future and also a throwback to big tradition. So if you think about that it's kind of like modern matchmaking that goes in other more traditional cultures, right? Like arranged marriage is not a new concept.

It's just not a common concept in our culture. So this is kind of like arranged marriage, except it's not your parents arranging you. It's matchmakers and clinics. You know? Well, I just kind of find it fascinating. and I'm curious your perspective as someone obviously who works with couples. You're an expert in this field. But I'm sure you've noticed

that what we've noticed just following relationships on a more casual, like, kind of podcasty type of approach is that people are just can't, like, they don't know how to lock in, they don't know how to commit. You know, it's paralysis of choice out there in terms of like dating, you know, all these like labels of like, we're exclusive

or boyfriend and girlfriend. It's all very confusing. You like, you watch Love Island and you're just like, how do you ever get into a committed relationship? What I've learned having some relationships, and the one I have with Natalie. At the end of the day, especially when it comes in marriage, it's just like you either both decide to make it work or you don't. Okay.

You know, I think obviously that's an overly simplified thing to say, but there is so much so much truth. You're just like, you're just, you either decide you're in this thing and you're just going to do what it takes to make it work. And obviously it requires reciprocity from your partner. You can't just be one person deciding to do that while the other person's like, I will see, which I'm sure happens in a lot of relationships. But you watch this and you're like, you know, if two people are just like, fuck it,

I'm committed this thing. They have a fighting shot. Yeah. Listen, I've worked with couples for almost 21 years now and you're hitting the nail on the I actually don't think you're oversimplifying it. It really requires work. Like my skin crawls when people come in and they're like, we knew it was over when it stopped being easy.

And I'm like, what do you have? What do you value in your life that comes easy? Like, for real. Really, like your cute body, your nice car, your degree, your podcast, like anything you value, look, your daughter and her behavior, anything you value requires thought, work, intentionality, great relationship, great sex too, but great relationships are no different. And so I think we've gotten into such like a, oh, if it doesn't feel good in the moment, let's keep it moving. And so you're 100% right. That decision to be like, I'm going to dig in and

commit is one of the critical features. I mean, listen. You know, you got to have the attraction. There has to be compatibility. But that willingness to not just cut and run at the first little bit of either a downturn or an attraction plateau, that's the ticket. I'm curious with the matchmaking aspect of this show, what are some of the things that you make, like compatibility, physical attraction, some of these things that like, you know, anyone who's dating is like, that's what, you know, that's kind of the things that we're looking for early on on a date. Which ones are more of the of the vibe killers with these couples?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let me come at it this way. I'm going to give you like a long winding answer. It's a really more intensive process than I think people realize because at high level, we all say the same shit. Watch this.

I want trust. I want to be attracted to someone. I want someone that's fit. I want someone that I can travel with or watch a sunset, right? We all have sort of the same like headlines. You really have to peel back, and this is, I think, the critical thing. What that means for you, right? Like, get into

the specifics because I don't think the headlines mean much. I think we really need to find out, like, what does it mean for you? How do you want to live your life next to someone? Do you like them? So we're looking for compatibility, but not compatibility on those sort of, you know, I want to be we all want to be attractive. I want to laugh. I want to laugh too. What makes you laugh, right? It's that. Everyone says, oh, I want to laugh. I want to have a good time. I hate roller coasters. If you love roller coasters, we both say we want a good time. We're not going to have a same good time, right? So really peeling back, like, what does life look like for you? And how do you want to live this life with someone? I think is one of the things I'm always looking for. And actually, what research

shows is really a great predictor of relational satisfaction. I think I understand what you're saying, and I've ever since I met my wife can kind of been echoing this, which is, like my relationship with Natalie is like the first relationship I had where I never felt like we we were competing with things and making simple decisions on a daily basis was simple like what do we want to eat for dinner like what do we want to do for fun right like what shows or movies we want to watch and is as is and I and that was something early in my relationship life I took for granted because I was like no no no I don't have to worry about that stuff because love is enough and I was like some kind of high level spiritual like thing yeah that I thought

And then, you know, and it turns out it's not because you're like after day four of negotiating lunch. You're just like, you know what, eat whatever the fuck you want. I don't give a shit. I agree. And I hate you. I hate you. You, I think you said something that I echo so deeply. And most people are like heartbroken when I say love is not enough.

And the way I talk about it with people is think about family members. We have family members that we love that you would you would die for. You would do a lot for. But that you don't actually want to be in the same room with for long. than 10 minutes. Oh my God. I would never have dinner with some of my siblings alone. That.

And yet. I'm not going to say who. I love you all. Right. Right. But actually wanting to move through life with them for longer than 10 or 20 minutes, no. So we rest on this very romanticized idea of like, again, do they make me laugh or whatever,

whatever the headline is? And will love be enough? No. You have to like them. I'm always looking for likeability. And in matchmaking, that's one of the things, is their likability factor. because love, love comes also with time. Listen, I've seen many, many couples in my practice who have family and they end up divorce and blah, blah, blah. They still love each other. They wish well for each

other, but they no longer like each other, which is no longer a good match. So it's that likability, that compatibility, that do you have the same metrics of how you want to move through life? I couldn't agree more because I always say that where I was like, I think that I've been in a relationship for nine years. And I'm like, the biggest thing is that liking each other. Because I was like, I could love somebody and hate them. at the same time. But I'm like, when we love each other

and we like each other, we're the best of friends. But like when you're pissing me off or whatever, it's like that love is still there. But I'm like, it's just so important to hold on to that like, that best friend factor in a relationship.

Totally. So that's one of the things I'm always looking for. Exactly what you just said, that likability, that compatibility, because the love is a steady, hopefully, but it's not actually the savior

that people think it is. So it's the, it's that do I like you? Do I want to hang with you? Dr. Lisa, I'm curious. This is a TV show, and so I'm just curious when you guys are casting it and not, because I know how much casting, actual casting you're doing. Yeah.

I guess more just like, what is a common theme with all the people who show up willing to do this? Are there kind of character traits that you notice or is it a wide spectrum of the type of people who are willing to be like, yeah, no, I'll, I will marry whoever you tell me to. No, no, no, this is a great question. It is a massive spectrum. I think what people don't realize is we go through hundreds of humans. beings that are looking for love. So it is like a very, very comprehensive dive. And not just people that are like, well, I want to be on TV, so I'll do what you want, right? No, no. And one of the things that I have been so joyfully surprised at and seems to be a common thread with everyone that is

coming on is that there are all these like really smart, beautiful, good people who are saying a similar thing, which is like, I'm just hitting a wall. I figured I'd try something crazy. Or I'm just hitting a wall, I figured I'd give it a go to do something different. I was always the black sheep in my family. I'm going to do something outside of the box. But the common thread truthfully is that they're all like, I really, I want love and it's not working. The apps aren't working. The, you know, everyone wants to be like, oh, I want to be introduced by a friend. Yeah, but everyone's friend group is only so big, right? So the concentric circles are only so big and they hit a wall there. And then the apps are only so happy and so they hit a wall there. And they're like, I really am looking for something.

That's been one of the common threads is that like true, genuine desire to see does something wild and crazy actually pan out if I rely on experts? Because what I've been doing so far has not worked. I mean, they're there because what they're doing in the wild isn't working, you know? Yeah. So the theme is desperation and frustration. I'm coming up close on it, guys. Yeah. I like the We have the two chairs that are nice. I want to touch on that because I totally see how that can be a thought. I'm going to come in and it's going to sound like a little fuzzy. But I actually think the theme is hope.

Like I always, they believe in it. I'm a cynic. Yeah, sure. But they believe in it. I mean, they believe in love. I don't think it's that they're desperate. I think they're like, let's give it. I still fucking believe that someone's out there for it.

Well, also maybe you could even argue that there's a little bit of, I call it humility. or just, but I think what it is is I think there's an acknowledgement that we've all kind of gotten fucked up a little bit and our pickers are so off. And the things that, like, an acknowledgement of like, you know, honestly the stuff I've learned about relationships online or on podcasts or the apps is like, you know, it's like, there's so much advice out there. You don't even know what to discern or what to take. And by the time you get into a relationship, we're all just kind of messed up and we're

little like dated and it's just like a mess and so you're like you know putting putting ourselves in the hands of people like you it's like you know what what i have is i want to make a marriage work and if you have that and i can trust someone to have my best interest in mind maybe have a better shot than like what i've been doing for myself lately you said something earlier when we first started uh talking about decision fatigue and i think that you're like dovetailing into it which is there's also something about being like, I am exhausted, do it for me. Like, by the way, if you've ever looked into how much it costs to employ a matchmaker, it is tens of thousands of dollars, right? So I think also there's an opportunity here that's like, wait, someone is going to deep dive into getting to know

everything about me, everything I'm looking for, everything that I've been through, and then try and find compatibility, likeability, et cetera, and I don't have to decide like it's done for me. I think there's something attractive or appealing about that process too. For that reason you said earlier, that like how many filters and boxes can people check on an app and how many little one-liners that make you sound, you know, interesting and witty, that they're just like, do you do it for me? I think it sounds great for a lot of people. I have a question about what I feel like might be one of the hardest parts for you guys

and maybe the people who are signing up for this as well, or just in general, like if I were to let somebody match, make truly something like that for me. How can you possibly know how somebody actually handles conflict? That to me is like the biggest thing because I'm like, yeah, sure, we get along great. We have all these compatibilities. But if somebody's like a total dick in my first big fight, I'm sorry. I'm like, I'm not trying to deal with this. Like I do not like, like the way people handle conflict is so important to me.

But it takes a couple months to see how that really looks. But you guys can't possibly know because I'm sure people come in and they're like, I'm very communicative. I try to validate and like all the therapy talk that we've all learned. But then when you have to practice it, I feel like we've already started seeing it on the show. I'm like, oh my gosh, like these people know the right thing to say, but I'm starting to see a little bit of that, you know. Listen, we all know the right thing to say until we're triggered. You're asking a great question. So I want to speak to like the goal of the matchmaking, but also the conflict piece. You assess for conflict style, right? And it's a deep dive into some people or conflict avoidance.

And some people, and interestingly, research shows that it's okay to fight or disagree in a relationship so long as you have similar styles. So we're always assessing for, like, I would never put a high conflict avoidant person with a high conflict person who loves it. Right. We know that that is not going to be healthy. But so it's compatibility of conflict style and conflict resolution style. Do you get a guarantee that once someone is totally triggered that we're the best version of our conflict style? I don't, I'm not. Have you ever gotten in a fight with your significant, right?

Like best version of ourselves go out of the window. So we can't control all the way. But here's the thing. I don't actually look to make the perfect, like, oh my God, I'm guaranteeing that they are going to love well, fight well, like well. Yeah. Are they going to have the best opportunity, right? We're looking for like similar to you give your, for Nick, who's the dad, right?

You give your kid every opportunity in the world. you don't get a guarantee that they're going to be like killer successes. You're going to lay out everything you can for them to say like, I'm going to set you up with every tool, every opportunity, everything that seems like a good fit for you and hope you can do it in the world. And so like that's sort of how I go into the matchmaking process, right? It's like we will deep dive into every, every facet of your style, your attraction style, your intimacy style, your conflict resolution,

your family of origin, how you want to move through life. And then there's the pieces that are like, and then it's up to them, right? So we get them as close as we can. And to your point, you know, there's the X factor that I'm not even trying to account for. That's the piece that makes this human, right? Is that like they're not robots. You're saying so much, I feel like I could talk with you for hours about this stuff, especially the conflict kind of spectrum.

Anyways, I want to ask you a couple of questions about specifically your cast. Adam and Nick. Yeah. Adam I find interesting because Adam comes across as this like he's intense, you know, like, and very rigid, you know, and like in some ways I could see, I, you know, like, I guess with all these people, you always see parts of yourself in them. But like he is, yes, I could see how he could be very, he, he likes what he likes and he's very like, you know, with someone like that who has a very specific personality and very intense personality, how do you go about matching someone like, like, like, like, at. Adam because I imagine that like it you know kind of the Susie's point I'm not even specific about how he might fight but it's all good and as long as Adam feels yeah like it's going Adam's way because like he just strikes me as a guy who's like kind of been very successfully independent and like been able to do his thing like so many yep I think like 30 something's out there who are single and you realize you know I was single for a long time of my 30s and I at least was grateful I had the self-awareness been like I must be getting really selfish because I've only answer to myself for the past eight years. And I'm curious, yes, someone like him, is there more, you know, if someone who has a very, like, successful, very rigid lifestyle, are they harder to match? And then, Nick, I'm curious, is the person who also went out a bunch of reality TV shows,

what was your just general opinion about matching him and, and were you nervous about his, his kind of genuineness about coming on the show? Yeah, who do you want first? Let's start with Adam. Adam is rigid. Adam is a person who is in pursuit. of excellence though, right? And that's just the truth. And I recognize that Reeds is rigid and he is rigid, but he's rigid because he strives for excellence. And so, I mean, that's first and foremost. And I think that, listen, if you're going to match people, you got to love them, right? You got to be able to get behind them for who they are at their best and not be like, oh, this is, this is person's massive flaw, right? I don't actually see Adam's rigidness as his fly. I do think it's a

pursuit of excellence. With someone like Adam, someone, who is equally as stern as him, I think you would see a clash of heads. I think with someone like Adam, you're looking for who is also excellent in their own right, but who has just enough softness and fluidity that, you know,

you don't have two pieces of steel that won't bend, right? And so, again, do you get a guarantee of what that means? I don't know, but I look for where there's going to be something that looks like this, right? We are both excellent in our own right.

but one might be able to bend. Imagine two people that live so loud on 10. It's Clash of Titans, you know? What are all the sayings? You can't have too many cooks in the kitchen type of thing. But Adam is excellent. He pursues and he holds himself to that and he demands people around him to raise up, you know?

So that, to your point when you said you see yourself in him, I think we all see traits of ourselves in these people. And you either are like, that's awesome or you're put off by it. But well, you just got, yeah, I think as you get older, you just recognize some of your more intense parts of your personality. And you realize it's like about, it's a strength and a weakness. It depends on who you're in the room with.

And you know what I always say is I think the goal is never to shut it off. Like we're cooked. We are who we are, right? The take is big. It's raising or lowering the volume, right? So can we find people that help us sort of raise the volume on the parts of ourselves that are awesome and lower the parts of, lower the volume on the parts of ourselves that are not, right? Like, I'm always going to be a neurotic

person. I'm less neurotic when my husband's in the room, right? He makes me a little better. I'm never not going to be that, though, you know? And what about, what about Nick? You know, it's funny, you said, was I nervous to match him? Not Nick is a great guy. I don't know. Would I be nervous to match a gynecologist because he looks at vaginas all day and someone might be intimidated? No, you know what I mean? Like, you know, these are the people they are. They're real people, and this is, if that's his history, then that's what we're working with, right? I don't know, not at all. I really, like I said, to do it and do it well and put your heart into it and to feel like these people are trusting you, you, I wasn't coming from a cynical lens of like, oh, you can't and do a good job, you know?

So, no, that's his, that's his story. That's his history. It had been on reality TV shows. Okay. That's awesome. Dr. Lisa, thank you for taking the time. I know you have to get going. You have to come back.

We have more questions. I would love to come back. You guys are great. In the meantime, I'm, you know what we didn't talk about too. I'm in an older. You have an age split in your marriage, too. Well, that was my last question is your husband's 20 years older than you. So, and my wife is 18 years younger than me.

How long you guys have been married for? 20. We've been together 24 years married. It'll be 20 this April. So as your husband, I have so many questions. But my biggest question is, is like, as he's gotten older, how have you guys kept the fire alive? Because, like, I'm just, I'm more afraid than my wife. Like, I'm just more like, you know, at some point, am I just going to be fucking old to her?

Because, like, now, you can't tell if I'm old. But, like, at some point. I mean, yes, you're going to be older. Listen, if we thread the needle of this conversation all the way through, it's choice and intentionality, right? Like that's it. He's also my, like, he's older and he's hot and he's hot, you know. He's hot. Okay. And he does. He makes it nice. He makes it nice. I think it. He does. He makes it nice. Does he have like an age expert? Does he do any of the age? Like, does he have like a guy? He's in excellent shape. I mean, he takes great care of himself and he's young at heart. I mean, right? Like all the things that you're going to be. He's energetic and he's dialed in and all the things. But people grow together or they grow apart. Age is one metric.

It could be someone who, like, takes off in their career and then the housewife that stays home. Those couples grow apart even if they're the same age, right? Potentially, not always. So that's going to be the thing that you'll have to take care of in your marriage, right? Is that you guys stay relevant to each other. This could show up in a million different ways if you were the same age. I know. We're off on a different tangent.

I could talk about this for years. Thank you so much. This is so much fun. Oh, my God. You all are great. Please come back. We appreciate taking the time. We know you have to get going.

Congrats on Married at First Night. Such a fun show. Thank you. We'll continue to talk about it. And again, really appreciate you taking the time, Dr. Lisa. Thank you. Good luck with the girls. And it was so nice to meet everyone on the couch.

Thank you for having. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. She's Fab. She's so interesting. I loved her a lot. I'm like, wait, where are she based out of? Like, can I get a contact?

Miami? Hey. Do we do long distance therapy? I might lie and switch back my residence. The only thing I didn't. We didn't have time to ask her because I am curious about like the pairing of Nikki and Sean. I was thinking that too.

That was like, that was the only question that I had in my mind is the idea of like, like, were you, when you see the reaction? Was that like a TV casting thing? Well, I was just wondering

if it was more so like, because seeing her reaction to seeing him and you see all these great reactions of like, okay, this is going to be my husband. I'm just like, is there ever like a little ping of just like, dang? Or like, is it like, you just wait and let it simmer?

Like you know something they don't know when they meet each other kind of thing? Yeah, I assume if we got a chance to ask there would have been a method to her madness of pairing them. But Nikki just seems like someone who, good for her, and it would be the same for me, physical attraction matters. You know, like, you know, and I feel like a handful of questions about that physical attraction would have gotten, they could have eliminated John.

You know, it's just like he's a, you know what I mean? I'm curious if she's more, if she's more optimistic, I find my, I find this in myself sometimes where I'm like, I really don't care so much about looks. And I think that I don't. But then sometimes I'm like, oh, I guess I do a little, you know? Where I feel like if somebody were asking me for matchmaking, I'm like, I would be super open-minded if everything else was there. And I do believe that. But I wonder if that's how she went into her conversations.

Like, I'm ambitious. I want somebody who makes this much money. Like, these are my top priorities. She talked about that more. Yeah. I wonder. I wonder if that's what did it. Yeah, I wonder if there's like a world.

I wish we could have asked her this of like if there are certain things that you value. like let's say maybe there was information about Sean and Nikki that like were just so compatible and so perfect for each other that they saw that they were like just let him cook because I think that'll you know what I mean like maybe it just like outweighed well he's a he's got a spicy personality yeah he's got like a great deal of confidence charisma he's got the he reminds me of one of my best friends he's now married with kids but when I met him, it was like during my reality TV days.

He's shorter. He's very just like unassuming. And he's also from the South and he has a drawl. A lot of women when meeting him thought he might be gay. And he just like, but he just has the most confidence. And he's one of the most charismatic people I've ever met. And this,

the way he would pull women was incredible. Yeah. And the Sean reminds me of this guy where at, look, at first glance at a party, like, he just, he was so self-aware because he knew that, like, when he would show up, he wouldn't, like, be checked out in a way, say, another guy would. But, and he knew that he could kind of, he knew he was like a safe space. Like, and. Walls go down. It's like, oh. He comes in.

Like, it's like, you know, she's making out with a girl on dance floor. For sure. I thought you were gay. You're right now, you know? No, and I'm taking you home tonight. Yeah. Just because he's a shorter guy. He had like just kind of,

just his mannerisms were like more just a little, you know, flamboyant. And he just, that's who he is, you know. And he didn't, he didn't check himself and he just was comfortable in his skin. And that ultimately is this very charismatic guy. That's hot. Yeah. I imagine that's why like, I see a lot of Sean and him where it's just like, I am who I am. And you may think a lot of me, but what I am at the end of day is like, kind of.

I'm a doctor. I'm super charismatic. Right. And like, you know. And Sean seems like a guy who's knows what it's like to be overlooked. Yeah. Or, you know, and I think he's proved a lot of people wrong throughout his life. And so I, that's why I don't think Sean is even uncomfortable in the situation with Nikki.

I think he's spent his whole life proving people around. He knows he can pull. I will say, yeah. I will say, he seemed a little. shocked when she was like, oh, you know, I need the physical side to build. And he was like, oh, this is the first time I'm hearing that you weren't immediately attracted to me. And she was like, but did you not see that from? Yeah, right. That's where I was kind of like, oh, I'm surprised he didn't like pick up on that and that he had to verbally hear that. Because even similar to love is blind,

a lot of the people say when you first meet that person, you aren't attracted to them. They're like, and it's not even that they aren't attractive. It's just that you're, it's the first time seeing somebody an attraction usually builds with time and understanding someone's mannerisms and like that kind of comes naturally it's just more jarring i couldn't like the whole whether it's the love is blind reveal yeah or this one where it's like your wedding day just to your point just the how your brain can't process all the things that you're trying to like they first of all they look they dress their smell their voice it's all just got to be so the little twitch they do We're just like, yeah.

No, I think love is blind might actually be harder to wrap my brain around. Me too. And you've had all these conversations with somebody and started to like make up what this person looks like. So then it's like if it's the polar opposite, it's like I have to get over that shock and mourn of somebody I've never met where I'm like at least married at first sight. It's like, all right. Here's a couple things about their personality as a gift. It either touches you or it doesn't. And then it's like, this is it.

But this cast is hot. Oh, yeah. Beautiful people. I was going to say like everybody has like legitimate jobs too. Yeah. I mean like that's what that was my first takeaway is like, you know, you, this show premise without watching it. You're just like, all right, we like to make fun of our country. You know, people like to make fun of the people in this country.

It's a thing. Americans? There's a lot of people this country. And if you want to feel better about yourself, you can pull from your, you know, and try to make fun of people in America. Sure. Yeah. And you would think this premise would, if you would, it would, it would pull from the depths of America that you like to make fun of. Yeah.

You know what? Arranged marriages, I'm pretty sure every other country has a long-stained, like, but for like us to make a show concept around it, like I totally agree. Oh yeah. It's just like, I couldn't get into it at first just because I was like, I don't know, the premise is so ridiculous. It feels like a premise that didn't start. But I don't think it is. I don't think it is. I don't think it is a future. No, I'm like, but that's, I was a slow burn with the show. and as I'm watching it, the more so I'm kind of like believing what I'm seeing.

Yeah. It's giving me like a 90-day fiance feel. You just, I mean, honestly, you're just going to pick someone. It originated in Denmark, by the way. Exactly. It sounded like something like someone Swedish and European would come. Not dead. Whatever.

You know, blondes. I went out on a date with a guy from a matchmaking service. He hired the matchmaker and I was approached on Instagram, took the call and I was like, I'm open-minded to this. But I think what I realized is that the matchmaker, in this case, was looking out for the guy. You know what I mean? She was like, you're like, yeah, you fit all his boxes. And sure, like, I didn't interview and, like, my non-negotiables were technically there or whatever.

But I'm like, when it's matchmaking one-sided, they're prioritizing their client rather than both. You weren't the paying client. No, no, no. I was, like, recruited to go on a date with somebody who was a paying client. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was this a TV show or a legitimate matchmaking? Just legitimate matchmaking. I, like, went on a date with a guy.

I imagine that's how like the industry works, right? You have people and they have to find, you have to. Basically like hiring a job recruiter. Yeah. That's so sad. But you have to find a pool of people to be like. But you would think it would be like an agency or something that you would submit being like I, you know, if you find somebody to match me with and I happen to still be single. Well, how do you get that pool, right?

I mean, ideally, it's an imperfect system. Ideally, you'd probably imagine once someone is dedicated and passionate and willing to spend the thousands of dollars it takes. but that would incredibly limit your pool. And if the matchmaking service can pull on friends or the internet or whatever, and then they say they do their due diligence or whatever. But to your point, yeah, it makes sense that like they were probably like, oh. A catch. She's attractive.

She seems nice. Like, what's not the like? She's got a career, yeah. Can I ask a question? Is it not like, maybe I'm wrong. Is it not like sad? I don't, like, there's like a lack of romance it seems in dating now. And it's just like...

What do you mean? Of course. Like the matchmaking aspect of it? Not even the matchmaking aspect. Just like everything. Like all these conversations we have and everyone has. It's just like we're trying to figure it out and we're trying to like... I would, you know what?

Like, I think there's too much romance. What? Hear me out. In the sense. If I'm pulling from the premise... Good for you, Natalie. Yeah. I don't mean...

Must be nice. I don't mean like I don't mean I give my wife too many flowers. I mean we're hyper. obsessed with the romance aspect of relationships so much and again I think when it comes to dating like we're just that's not really what I'm asking well that's maybe it was what you made me think about anyway I just think like think about it was just like there's just the dating dating has become just like a sport you know that's what I mean you just you got you have to you have to engage but it's like you're but it's we're focusing on like batting averages almost versus like actual connection I think

I think that's what's that. Yeah. Romance in general. I don't, like, I don't know how to date somebody. I just mean, like, you have to, I think people are, I guess to answer, I meant like there people are hyper focused on, I mean, you want, obviously you want romance in a relationship, but it, I really mean it, like, when, like, you watch, like, being in a marriage, and again, a relatively new relationship, but I'm just saying, like, I know you've been in a

relationship for a long time, like, again, you just have to, you have to wake up and be like, I want to be in this relationship. And then you just have to do things every day where you're like, I would, I would, if I were alone, I would do it differently, you know? And every day, there's a million decisions that is required to, and then you have to put a good face on and you have to have a good attitude. And then you have to be like, you know what? I'm, I'm going to actually try to like, and then there's days where you like, you, you,

you still don't want to do it, you know? And then you, you know, like, that's a relationship. And it requires so many, a million decisions like that every day. And I think that's the part of relationships that is lost on people who are dating these days. And it was lost on me and when I was single for a long time because we're just hyper focused on, it's like now dating is I'm going to go to therapy and I'm going to do this work on myself. I'm going to learn about my attachment style. I'm going to learn about all the things I like.

And then I have to find someone who like fits all these like fucking boxes and does all these things. And like, none of that really matters. And unless you have to find someone as like, are you going to like. Do you like me? Not even do you like, like, well, sure, the like part is aspect, but like, are you going to, are you going to quit on me? Are you going to like, do you want to do you want to be in a relationship? Like, you know what I'm saying? Do you want to be in a marriage?

Oh my gosh. Do you want to know me? Do you want me to be a part of your everyday? Or do you like the idea of having somebody by your side? But like, until the second that it's not perfect. And I think dating has become too much of finding. this like twin flame soul made like perfect match and it's like versus finding someone who wants to be in a relationship and and wants to like figure it the

fuck out with you every day that's that to me has been what is most frustrating like I was just having this conversation with one of my girlfriends recently where it's like there is truly somebody for everybody there are women that don't really want or need a serious relationship label they just want to have a little fun whatever but so I personally have found so many guys say they want a relationship. And I don't know if they actually believe that they do or if they're just saying that to get you to date them for a little bit. But it's like, you don't have to lie to me because I would maybe be down to go out and have a little fun for a couple of weeks until somebody who is ready for a relationship. But when you tell somebody like, I really

am looking for X, Y, and Z, I want a relationship, but they actually don't. They are, they're not ready they want. They're not ready to hang up the tweets. Nobody knows what, I just don't think anybody actually knows what they want at an early stage of dating and I don't get why that's just not okay to say sometimes. You know what I mean? Like be honest. And it's okay to like, the other thing is I'm like, yeah, but I think there's not knowing what you want and I think there's a difference between your point. I think I'm like, probably if I'm wrong, I'm assuming you're dating men old enough to should know the difference of they want to make it work in a relationship or they just want to like, I don't know, like go on a couple dates and maybe have some sex and we'll see and we'll see.

Yeah, we'll see. And I'm curious is like what are, what are, how? What does that relationship cycle look like for you? Like what are some things that you notice in the men that you've dated who ultimately demonstrate that like they're not looking for what they claim they're looking for? You know, it's funny because I feel like you always kind of clock it at the beginning. There's something. There's like whether it's how they speak about their past relationship or even watching this show, how some people are just like over-therapies where they like have these words.

and I'm like, you have this cognitive ability to understand and recognize things, but you've obviously not been able to make it work, but you know the right things to say. And it's almost, I feel like you can kind of clock it at the beginning, but you want to, you want to see it through. And you're like, okay, well, I mean, you didn't say anything wrong. But it's like this, I feel like there's this intuition where I have learned I just need to like listen to that because it's like, even if they're saying the right things, it's, it's different for everybody, I guess.

but I don't know. I feel like... Do you feel like when you're dating, you've had opportunities or opportunities show up kind of organically where you both have to, or specific in your case, the men have to show a willingness to compromise,

like, or do something, you know what I'm saying? Where it's just like, he's doing this because I want to do this and I feel that. And like, you know what I'm saying? As opposed to, you know? That's been, I am so like, I'm so flexible.

Like I'm like, I'll do whatever. Like for the most part, I'm like, I'm down for whatever. But when I have a say, it is really hurtful to me when I'm with somebody and I'm like, oh, no, I actually really want sushi tonight. I'm like, it's so rare that I like really want something passionately that when somebody won't have flexibility, it like is truly hurtful to me because I'm like, I will give you whatever you want five, six days of the week. If I want sushi one night, like I would love for you to want me to have.

what I want too, but I find that people who are rigid are attracted to me because I am very flexible and fluid like that. So I find myself in situations a lot because I am pretty go with the flow and I'm like, well, I don't care. Like I enjoy most things. I'm pretty laid back, whatever. But then I find myself in these situations, but I find it like irks me. I'm like I want somebody to be selfless. I want somebody who wants me to have what I want. But I find myself so often. And maybe I'm attracted to that too. Like I don't know if that's something on my end. I get that as someone that's like a chiller.

Yeah, I'm chilling. We're pretty, yeah. But chill or chill or whatever. Yeah, I think it's like sometimes like, I want somebody that's going to be like, no, you're going to do that. And sometimes I'm like, okay. Yes, I love a leader.

I love like that. Yeah, but then I think there's a mutual. There's also a mutual. Yeah. You got to be able to switch it up. But it takes a minute to, I think for me, it takes a minute to get to the point in a relationship where I'm actually,

like, I'll be chilling for a long time. But then I'm like, hey, like I actually want this. And when I, it takes a minute to realize, oh, you don't reciprocate the respect or the, what was the way you say to like the compromise? People don't want to always compromise back. And I'm like, that fucking sucks. I think the thing I've, and I'm curious, I'm assuming you've experiencing your relationship

with Connor. But like there's, obviously Natalie and I have a lot of differences. And there's things that like I'm just particular about. There's things that she's, I'm more particular. She's period than she is. Yeah. But she has her preferences or whatever. You know, we show up in so many different ways.

but it's just knowing that like, I know that Nally is willing to do things for me and for us. And like we're willing to do different things, but there is a desire to make each other happy. Or there's a desire to make the other person feel good or when the other person is stressed or down or whatever, there is a, you feel that, are you okay? You know, that in a way that like I think a lot of people

aren't, right? I've struggled to find that. And that's the thing. It's like this kind of very, it's not a, it's just that feeling you just know they give a fuck. Yeah. You know? I think it's kind of scary because I'm thinking about what you were saying about

these men kind of showing up with the right things to say, but then when it comes down to having to put it into action, that it's almost a polar opposite. Yeah. And it's giving this like pseudo self-awareness because it's like I can talk about myself in a way, but when it actually comes to implementing it, then that's when I feel threatened or it feels like you've changed or something and that's when

they get triggered or whatever. And I think even to your point where I'm like, I feel like, especially with you and Adelaie, but like I think with I think when I met Connor, like I was getting out of a long term relationship, had been single for a few months and was just kind of like, I don't want a relationship. So I showed up as the most authentic version of myself. Same with him. Yeah. So it's like because we both kind of didn't think it was going to last as long as it did, to be completely honest. We were just like, okay, I'm meeting you where you're at, you're meeting me where I'm at, where I'm like, I think a lot of people getting into dating situations, they try to put their

best foot forward, whatever that means to them. And it's usually a mask. It's not real. And so I used to always say I give a relationship dating three months. About three months is when the mask starts to fall off. You can't keep the facade up anymore. And you start seeing the real versions of themselves. Get into a year.

You're going to see even more unpack. And then by like two, three years, I think that's when it's like, Okay. I know what I'm dealing with here. So I'm just like, I don't know. I just feel like where if people are showing up as their most authentic self, then it's very easy to ask for the things that you need. When you're trying to show up as a person that has it all together, that's perfect, that can go with any flow that you, that you bring at me because I don't like to cause conflict. I'm like, then you get yourself in these situations to where it's like you feel almost awkward or bad or guilty for like admitting the fact that you don't like something or you don't want to do something or you don't fuck with that. And I'm like, I think that's what gets a lot of people are like, why this whole like dating situation is so fucked is because in like a dating profiles, you're just putting a resume out there of all of your best features, best qualities, best pictures. I love dogs. I go fishing with my friends. I'm so active. I hike. I do all these things where maybe throughout the week, that's not every day. Yeah. But then all of a sudden it's like this like act to have to keep up where I just think that when you meet somebody where

you're at and when they're willing to be authentic with you, that's where like the magic happens, in my opinion. I don't even know if I'm answering this question correctly. But I'm like, I do think that a lot of people put on an act to try to present themselves as this perfect person. Yeah. And then that's when it's like, oh, you don't want to do this anymore. Like now I'm triggered. Now you're not the person you said you were. And it's like, okay, well, I can be that.

I can do that, but that's not who I am. Yeah. You know what I think, I just had a thought listening to you guys talk, the, like the, almost like, not the secret sauce, but like something you, you want to see early in a relationship. And I think is the willingness and the ability to adjust. And I think. And I was just thinking about me and Natalie, and I wonder if we were, where our age gap helped us. Because I think we were, well, I know I was.

I think in our own right, we both were, we were aware of our age gap. And we are aware that like, this might not work out, you know? And everyone told us about that. And I think as a result early on, I think we were both willing to be like aware that things could pop up and aware of adjusting to each other. And that willingness to adjust, you know, not like, lose ourselves, not like become a different person, not like, not have the agency to speak up when I'm saying, you know, but just to be like, okay, like, I like it this way, I do it this way, but you do it this way. How do we adjust as a couple? And our ability to constantly adjust with

each other and then become more of like a unit rather than two individuals, I think has been a key to our relationship. But I think in a key to any relationship, that a willingness to like, you all have your preferences, you have your likes and dislikes, but like, I don't know. And then when you see someone you're dating or in a relationship adjust for you, it just gives you such a, oh, yeah. Thanks. You know, like, you know, like a. And it's just like a. And it makes you want to do it more for them to be honest. Yeah. And then there's that, and then you build that reciprocity that like, you know, yeah. When you, because you can talk a big game early on and you can do all these things. But if you're not willing to show that you're, you can tweak

how you show up in situations or a personality trait or whatever. for the relationship, you know, then what do you got? I think that compromises what makes mutual respect. You know what I mean? Where I'm like, if you're willing to bend for me or show up for me in ways that maybe even make you uncomfortable and vice versa, then it's like, okay, I know that no matter what and that's when your partner does become your best friend. It's because it's like, yeah, that relationship is like no matter what goes on in my life.

Like you've got my back and you know how I'm feeling. Nothing's better than being in a relationship with somebody where they can see you from across the table, see you're uncomfortable or struggling and be the first person to be like, hey, you good or like, should we go? Like, you know what I mean? Because it's like that person knows you and they took the time to understand you where I feel like a lot of people are very about me and my needs being met, that they don't have the time or the ability to open up and be like, well, what are your needs and how can I cater to that?

And I think the problem with that is that that's a lot of modern, it's what you see online. It's what, and it's also like I've been going to, I kind of, I started going to therapy, like not, like a couple months ago. And it's, I kind of felt like, not bad about it. Like I feel like I'm so happy. I started doing it, blah, blah, blah. And like, I've been figuring a lot of things out about myself. Like that first time you, like this is like the first time you've done therapy?

No, no. But the first time I've like stuck with it for a long time because I had some other, another therapist. I didn't like, anyway. Yeah. And I've found myself just like in situations now because I have a little bit more awareness of certain aspects of myself, prioritizing, my own feelings. And I've been watching the way that in like romantic situations or in just real

life, it's just I've watched the way that like almost like centering myself sometimes have like the way other people react to that. And it's not always great. Yeah. And I don't and I guess like I don't know. I can't tell if that's just because I'm trusting my gut or if I'm being selfish. And I think that's a weird thing that like the internet and modern dating gets really confused like i get really confused by like you're realizing like in a like i'm the problem type of thing or you i can't tell no it'll be like oh i figured out like for example part of my like kind of like suzy was saying like i have an issue where like i just want like i'm a pisci's mercury i just want peace i want everyone to get along i don't want to cause a big thing like someone if someone else is hurt to me that's like way more important than me

Yeah. Like I'm like, okay, let me fix that. And I'm like, okay, maybe that's a little much. I don't need to do that. And maybe like, if I'm actually like kind of hurt by something, I can say that. Right? And then sometimes you start saying that and then people are like, okay. Well, I think what? And like in family or whatever and you're just like, well, what am I supposed to do now? Yeah. And in dating and stuff, I think that's like can be a really scary thing where I think because of the way internet, like the internet, like the internet. kind of therapy speak that you see on TikTok or whatever, you'll see that and you'll react to that and you'll be like, oh, I am supposed to be prioritizing myself. So now everybody is kind of doing that to each other, I guess. And then there's no real like communication. Room for compromise. So that's what I wonder. We have learned the language like, yeah. The non-negotiables have become like there's, we're never going to negotiate. Yeah. It's just like, yeah, we've just learned how just center our feelings before others. Yeah.

And then we've learned how to have been like, well, I'm dating an anxious attack. And like we've learned how to diagnose our partners and learn how to prioritize our feelings. Yeah. You can diagnose somebody and then understand yourself. Yeah. And I think that doesn't do anything. Like what do you, what the fuck are you supposed to do with that? Like, I don't know.

I don't know. I thought really that really worked. And that's why it's just like, you know, it's just like it's, I think the whole attachment style thing is interesting. but the way people are going way to it gives you an excuse for like act in a fool sometimes i think yeah or to write people off oh my god you're an anxious attachment i don't know then maybe like or make excuses for your partner who is like oh try to not do that they act this you know

that's how people make excuses for their partner sometimes it's like well they only do this because they're yeah right it was like well maybe so but they haven't stopped doing it yeah a while and like they haven't really done anything about it and the diagnosis is the first part this is also two of two close friends of mine just went through like their first

big adult breakups and talk to me about it all week yeah so I'm like bro I don't think love is real that was your feedback not to them internally hopefully they're not listening when like the two people two of the people you have in your life that you're like ah you made a relationship

work don't then you And you're the single one. You're like, ah, well. Tart out there, man. I think as you get older and you kind of, you kind of like said this, but also contradicted it, not actually. But you said earlier something about as you got older, you're like, oh, I realize how selfish I must be getting because you're getting really comfortable with your lifestyle

alone. I think dating in my 30s and dating guys that are significantly older within, you know, a 10-year range or whatever, it can go both ways. It's either that they recognize, oh, I need to. let go of some things and be selfless and have what we were just talking about, this like willingness and desire to be flexible and compromise, or they become way too self-centered. And they're like, I got a good thing going. You can either fit into this or, you know, see you later because somebody will. And surely, somebody will fit into it. There will be somebody who is like,

yeah, I'm down. Yeah, exactly. But it's, I think it goes one way or the other. And I kind of, I've found more so, it's people get comfortable with their life alone. And they just want somebody to fit into what that looks like. Yeah, I think that's pretty common. Money doesn't buy, like, that's the one thing. I've had the opportunity to date some really wealthy people. And I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to just do what you want to do. I don't want to just, your money's not going to buy me my happiness.

You didn't want to be a treadway. All right. Well, we will continue to watch and talk about Merritt at first sight. We have like, we're halfway done with the episodes. There's 20 episodes. Oh, my gosh. There's nine out. We'll continue to dissect and talk about these couples.

Fascinating show. And hopefully, when it's all sit and done, we'll get a chance to talk to some of these couples. They are unavailable at the moment. I'm going to get through the season. But we are excited to keep watching. And we appreciate you guys. Thank you to our doctors. It's been really relationship-focused.

Dr. Pamela Baker and Dr. Lisa for joining us. And thank you for listening. We'll see you back on. Thursday.