The Viall Files - E1177 - Nat & Liv From The Girls Talk Getting Real, Lindsey Clancy Trial, DWTS Rumored Cast

Episode Date: August 25, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Nat and Liv from The Girls join to talk about their new show, why this group felt ready to return to reality TV together, life in the Kardashian orbit, WAG culture, and more! Later, we discuss the Lindsay Clancy case, specifically postpartum depression and anxiety, and how the internet can distort sensitive stories in real time. Plus, rumored Dancing with the Stars cast.   "A woman's intuition is best served with the algorithm." Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Spa Weekend: Book your escape and treat yourself to Spa Weekend. Only in theaters August 21st. Mint Mobile: To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to https://mintmobile.com/viall  FIGS: Use code FIGSRX for 15% off your first order at https://wearfigs.com  Wayfair: Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to https://wayfair.com to shop all things home. CashApp: New Cash App customers can earn $10 if they use code FAMILY10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Dose: Ready to give your liver the support it deserves? Head to https://dosedaily.co/viall or enter VIALL to get 35% off your first subscription. To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles  @nickviall  @nataliejoy @nataliehalcro @oliviapierson @susiecevans @justinkaphillips @the_mare_bare @baybaeee

everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Reality Recap Edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my sexy, gorgeous, wonderful, incredible hero mom wife, Natalie Joy. Wow. Hero mom. Hero mom. I love that one. Wow. Let's have examples.

Shout out to the hero moms out there. You know, we had a really great weekend with our family, including Nali's mom, and we had my sister drove up. Sister came in. Our friend Victoria Fuller. in the area. We got We got Gigi.

We got Gigi. You know, we got a village. Gigi, who's Gigi? It's crazy. We have nicknames for everyone. Wait, Genevieve's hanging. I love.

Genevieve came too. Listen, it really does, my mom was like, it really takes the village with twins. Anyways, lots of parenting conversations going on on this episode. The world has lost their mind with this

Lindsay Clancy case. And we are finally going to talk a little bit about it. And obviously, given the sensitivity of this case, we will try to do it with tact in ways that maybe some people on the internet aren't. We actually have a very unique guest. Our booker, Angela, is going to join us when we talk about the case, only because when we were talking about, you know, how do we want to have a conversation around this case and what potential guests should we have. Angela was very gracious talking about her own experience as a mother, who's someone who has dealt with severe postpartum. And she just talked so passionately from

her lived experience. And I felt like I learned a little bit from her just hearing her. So we invited her on because more than anything, I think there's just a lot of, a lot of discourse and as often the case, misinformation and confusion on certainly postpartum. Certainly there needs to be an awareness. I think that's one thing we can hopefully all agree on. Angela, our Booker, is going to join us to talk about this. And then obviously we'll get into, you know, some of the other things that are, you know, being talked about and some of the craziness that is going on as a result of this case. But before we do, we have some fun things to actually talk about. The Dancing with the Stars lineup is really taking shape.

When do they announce? September 2nd, right? All right, so September 2nd. So as often is the case with Dancing the Stars, they do a big kind of cast announcement via GMA. Obviously, the Disney affiliate for the Disney family. So shout out GMA. But unlike maybe other seasons, has this happened as much?

But it feels like they're really leaking names. It does seem like they're doing it. that, but honestly, it's just getting me more excited. I mean, should we go through who's confirmed and who's rumored? Yes. Because I'm itching. Okay, so confirmed, we've got Sierra Miller, Moora Higgins, Jackson Olson, and Guillermo Rodriguez. They've been confirmed by the actual show.

Yes, yes. They have been confirmed. But they have not been confirmed of who their partners are, just Guillermo. Just Guillermo. I believe just Guillermo. Okay. Yes. And then for the rumored cast, which this can be from like,

Rumor of rumor to they've been like spotted outside the building and people are throwing it in. These are just really fun names. Tyler Cameron. Connor Levitt. Sarah Jane Nader. Jenna Dewan. Julia Stiles and Tatian Ali. I feel like Sarah J.

Nader is confirmed because Brooks is like commenting on rumored posting like she copies everything I do. Yay. Yeah. I think so. Also with the love din Nader obviously again, part of the Disney family. it makes a lot of sense that they're using this to promote their own shows. And Brooks, I mean, that was a good season with Brooks and Gleb. Was that last season?

Yeah. Did they need a partner for Gleb? There's no way she would dance with Gleb. That would be crazy. Yeah. Oh, I actually heard there's a rumor that she's going to have a female partner. Yeah. Yep.

I heard that too. Yeah. Again, all rumored. All rumored. Who would be a good female partner for her, though? I'm like thinking height-wise, she's a model. So she's a little taller. I mean I feel like

I mean didn't wasn't Jenna With JoJo Jenna was with Jojo So maybe since she's got like practice Also dancing female female Maybe they'll use her again I don't know Aren't you like you don't I mean

It's got to be hard to switch it up yeah But the question is who leads So I think when Jojo dance Because that is part of dancing Yeah like someone's got to lead Why are you looking at me like what did you say? I wonder if there's There's like, I don't know, I feel like there's a dynamic where they're both kind of leading.

Yeah. You know, and both kind of following, that could be kind of fun. On Dancing with the Stars, but amongst the pros, there is often, I wouldn't say, not complaining. But the women pros would always tell me that like the men pros have the advantage because in the dance, they're leading the dance. For sure. So they can just like throw their partner around. And as long as you're just like, I trust you, you, you, they can kind of. to really lead the dance where like the male

celebrities, the stars, they're supposed to lead these dances and they don't know what the fuck they're doing. So it's just a lot more difficult. So that really meant like who is leading in the dance is matters. So I wonder, I imagine Jojo led when she was. Maybe some of her. But Jojo was also a professional dancer. That's true. Which continue on with the rumored cast. Julia Stiles.

Oh, I was going to go, I was going to go Ginode John Juan. Also professional dancer in the ilk of Jojo. Not necessarily ballroom dancing, but certainly, what does she on? Like, I think you can dance or something? She was in Step Up. Oh, she was in Step Up. Also famously married to Channing Tannum, also a great dancer.

Not that, like, who you're married to helps you dance. Are they still married? Oh, my God. No. Oh, okay. She's remarried. She's got, he's what he was dating. They're both remarried.

He was dating Zoe Kravitz for a while. Yeah. Yeah. She has a child. child with her new husband, who also is a very talented singer, performer, entertainer. But it is, it would be crazy if the rumors are true to have both Jenna Dewan and Julia Stiles in a season of Dancing with the Stars. You have step up and save the last dance.

Who did it better? That's huge. That's huge for a very specific group of girls that grew up with dance movies. Julia Stiles is a really incredible casting for Dancing with the Stars. It is a very interesting cast. People think Julia Stiles might be with Ezra. That's the rumor. Who they're paired with, I guess.

I'll more just kind of find out. Are people that excited about the pairings as much as? I think people are. I think people love the idea of like a romantic connection or some kind of a showman. A showman. People love that. Who are the, of the alleged celebrities, who are the single ones? I don't think any.

So maybe. No showman. No, showman. Well, Sierra, Sierra, Sierra, yeah. Is Mora single? I think Mora's single. Is Mora single?

I don't think so. I don't think so. I think he's... Something tells me that Mora and Sierra Miller won't want to have a, like... Showmants. I agree. I feel like that would take away

for their narrative of the season of Independence for sure. Yeah. I'll be curious. I think having both of them on the cast will be really interesting because I feel like they're... they have a similar vibe in the sense that they're both like really powerful, strong single women.

And I feel like you kind of each year there's like a casting for different people where it's like, okay, we have this person who represents this thing. And they're both, I feel like they're both kind of that person. Yeah. Continuing out with who's rumored, we have Tatyana Ali, who's, I believe, for Fresh Prince of Bel Air, correct? The old one or the new one? Both. Booked and busy.

OG sitcom star Which one is she in the which one What characters she play? Ashley Oh Okay love The youngest Okay

Yeah I saw Connor Leavitt is also rumored Which is Have they ever done that before Like a wife than a husband? I don't believe so That makes me wonder if there's a spinoff coming from Right

Oh a Whitney and Connor spin off Well with the whole you know with Sarah Jane Nader You know like again like ABC is going to use these these other shows, these popular shows to promote their own shows. And obviously Whitney did very well and she had a great fan base from this show and Connor was a very supportive partner.

Unless there are plans for Connor, you know, and Whitney, it would seem kind of like a random casting. But it makes me think there's maybe something in the works. I do feel like they've kind of teased that idea. Because didn't they launch like their own production company or something? Sure.

I do. Like they have their... Maybe that's part of their spin-off story. Yeah. I also think Connor, because of Whitney last season, like he has such like a wholesome, you know, quality to him, like especially within the community of Dancing with the Stars and the fan base. So I think he would be, like, for the fans who got to watch him last year, just like support his wife and then go see him dance.

Could be really fun. Usually that's not enough to get a casting. Usually it's because I think there's something in the works. Yeah, I just wonder if it's like in tandem. You know what I mean? Plus, we know that man loves a costume. Like, Zach Affleck would never get this opportunity. No, but I feel like people also like Connor more.

Totally. I'm saying there's got to be something. For them because I don't think it would happen for Zach. We have other couples that have done dancing with the stars, Carlos Pennevega and Alexa Penevega and then Nick Lichet, Vanessa Lichay. I'm not familiar with the Pena Vegas. Me either, but. We love to see a good for them.

Were they on the same season or different seasons? That is a great question. That would be kind of cool, like if they could compete against each other, yeah. And then we have Tyler Cameron, which I'm very excited about. I'd love to see it. We love to see it. He honestly, like, he should have had his moment years ago, but I'm glad that it finally I'm kind of surprised he took them this long to get cast on dancing with the stars.

He famously, for those of you, for Bachelor fans, came out dancing in his intro package on Hannah Brown season. and his hips did not lie. And it'll be really exciting, I think, at least for us, you know, Tyler is in a very different stage of life now, recently engaged. He's settling down, as they say, to a wonderful person, Tate. I think the challenge for Tyler will be.

He's so used to on a public stage to being the sexy heartthrob. I think he can still be that. Well, I think what's, you know, what's cool about getting to see Tyler in this, like, phase of his life is, I think it reminds you that, like, so many of these, like, celebrities we see on TV are just, just like us, just normal people. So, also, we didn't talk about the randomness of the casting. Do we not want to talk about that?

I think a lot of people are discussing the cast. Yeah, it is interesting at this point because it's, like, yeah, a lot of people are saying it's random, and they're influencers on it, but are, what's the difference between a star and an influencer at this point on a show like dancing with the stars? Yeah. I guess, I guess, like last year we had Alex Earle who of all influencers feels like she carries a lot of star power where I don't know that there's anybody who's quite an Alex Earl on the cast. Well, also I think people have to remember like how they cast this show. They're pulling from various like, you know, with Dancing with the Stars.

They want to pull from popular niche audiences, right? So that's why they often will try to get like someone from the Bravo space, right? they'll try to get some you know a few people from uh just like generally like reality tv stars and now because of the rise of the rise of influencers you're going to have like ticotkers and just like your traditional influencers uh the pasting the casting of tyler i think is for anyone who it feels random because he hasn't been on the bachelor for a while i think that speaks to like the fact where bachelor nation is at obviously we had we didn't have our bachelorette season i don't think Taylor Frankie Paul is available to Dan's. There's no like obvious relatively new person from

from that franchise, but it's still like a legacy franchise that still has a very strong fan base. And I think that's why they go to someone like Tyler who still has like he's probably one of the still still the biggest names and most relevant names in Batchner Nation who has yet to compete. So like that, you know, that in itself makes sense. But yeah, they're they're building a roster. They're building a team and they're always going to pull from different pockets of popular niche audiences. Like, for example, the Savannah Banana guy, we talked about this on Plus. Like, they always find, like, on my season that we had like a bull rider who was like a model

slash bull rider. And in bull riding, it's a very popular space. It's very niche. And they wanted to, you know, they're pulling from these kind of parts of America that, you know, they want representation. So like with the Savannah Banana is taken off. Yeah, that's so wild. He's kind of filling that niche.

you know it's up and coming they're bringing them on you know so that's just like shows you the power of tic-tok because the savannah bananas for those of you don't know i'm from savannah so that was like a very it's we don't have any other how long they've been around a long time so it was like its own baseball team i think my dad like played for him or so it like wasn't a you know known thing but and then they started getting basically baseball players who couldn't make it to the triple a or major league or whatever they were very very very. good but not quite good enough. Very good, but not good enough. And they just started like this silly thing. And I feel like they were the first to do it. But it was the only thing you could really

do in Savannah was to go to these Savannah Bananas games. And it was just so family friendly. Like, they're just so silly. They interact with the crowd a lot. And so to see it take off the way it did, obviously it's because they were filming TikToks and doing all these TikTok dances and TikTok really blew them up. But now I see them literally everywhere. They are truly popping off. Like they are everywhere. I feel like they're in commercials now. It's just really wild to because it was such a small town thing. Well, I think it's going to be a fun season. I mean, Julia Stiles is a very fun casting. Jenna Dewan, also very fun casting in a mix of your more traditional celebrities and just kind of the, you know, this is what celebrity means today. But speaking of

celebrities and celebrities who are just like us, a lot of people are having fun watching the Umanskis take their daughter off to college. And you have Kyle and Maricio and the family, you know, posting like a vlog style of their, as a family, despite, you know, them being separated, not technically divorced, but, you know, no longer in their marriage, but still being very much a family when it comes to supporting their daughters. And a lot of people have enjoyed watching this very wholesome video of the Umanskys. And, you know, like with Kyle and the Beverly Hills housewives, there's always like this perception of unobtainable life and glitz and glamour and flying, you know, like you watch Beverly Hills housewives every time they travel, they're going to like this kind of very private, you know, staging area where you show up for the airline and they're flying first class.

But when the Umanskis are just being a family, they're going to Burbank Airport and they're flying Southwest and they're flying coach and they're just like us. They're ordering Taco Bell. They're ordering Taco Bell. Kyle Richards is getting a crunch rep supreme. And I want to know. It's like, I want to know Kyle Richards talk about order late night order yeah I feel like that should have been included in the blog like yeah a what did everyone get muck bang yeah they should circle back and and give us what the people want because I agree yeah I've said this before too like despite what's going on in and Kyle Marisa's marriage I think I give them so much credit and so much praise because of outside of the difficulties of making a marriage work which is we all know it can be a challenge

over the course of a lifetime but the way they prioritize their family outside of themselves. I think it's such a beautiful thing, honestly. And given how common divorce is and how difficult it is to make a marriage last, I think it says a lot about Kyle and Mauricio and how they've prioritized their family and that it's still possible. Like, it is still possible to... Like, they can put their problems to decide and just be there for their kids, which is something coming from a divorced parents. It's something that I, like, wanted my whole life. I remember the only time my parents were in the same room was like a high school graduation and that was they like fought about having to take be in the same and there was always drama yeah you know it was like you have to take a photo with me and

I need both of my parents and they were like oh no you know yeah right so I think it's just really beautiful like that they're able to do this and and and kind of demon you know and truly be influencers and when it comes to what it what it can look like uh with a family that you know you had your marriage problems but you can still be a family and I think I think I think I I I'm I really admire them as parents and what they do, and they are great role models. I certainly hope that Natalie and I will continue to work on our marriage and fight for our marriage and stay together. But I think there's so many, like, beautiful things that we can learn from the Umanskis of

how they've been able to prioritize their family. And I think it's just great. I love them for it. I think it's awesome. Well, speaking of family and housewives, we had Gina who, from Orange County, like, posting a Facebook review of her son who's, like, power washing. trash cans in their neighborhood. Is this right?

It was so wholesome. It was really cute. Yeah, basically he had been doing this little side hustle of like cleaning trash cans and someone was like, this young man if anybody wants their trash cans clean.

Go for this young man. Just like out of like without like Gina doing anything and she like this kid just like, you know, is good at his services and everyone wanted to prop him up. And he's taking pride in his work. And that also it feels like a niche enough job.

You know, it's like easy for kids to do. It's also niche. It's also no one else really wants to do it. Like clean your trash cans. Yuck. What is he charging? That's a great question. Does the Yelp have business information?

Does he have a card? See, Gina, these are the things you should be asking your son. After supporting him. He could have gotten so much more business had she included his business card. It's also like, are we a job? adjusting for inflation, you know? Like, I know what sanitation costs to my rent. I just hope he's getting, I hope this kid is making money.

I feel like he is. I feel like a neighborhood in Orange County. Like, it's not going to be cheap to get your, your trash can wash. But he is a teenager, so you're getting a discount. Oh my gosh, you're kidding. That's a deal. $10. $10.00.

That's a good price. That's a good price point. That's a good price point. I also love that Gina was just so, like, proud of him and wanted to reshare. it because I'm sure I mean I don't know I feel like as a kid like all you want to do is make your parents proud well if you're a good kid I guess but but I think that she's such a good mom and cares so much about her family and the family dynamic so I love that she was just so proud and like wanted to reshare no I love Gina and Gina also like I mean I'm making it a bit about money

just because my head is going of like like I would put myself as this kid being like all right how can we scam these Orange County women right love me um but Gina doesn't care about him making money and stuff. She's just proud of him like being, you know, like a good kid. Work ethic goes a long way. Yeah. How old is he? It's pretty cool. He's a teenage. He's 11. He's 11. He's 11.

That actually, I was thinking he was like 15. Me too. Oh my gosh. Smart. Business mind. Yeah, he's going to be, he's going to do great things. Yeah. Speaking of smart, you know what River did over the weekend? It blew my mind. I don't, honestly, it was shocking and terrifying all at the same time. It was crazy. Nali got, right now when River gets a boo-boo, she wants a band-aid. So she's covered in band-a-band-a-stands.

We're in a band-age. She, like, you know, it bumps something. She needs a band-aid. So Nally got her some character-themed band-aids, and she got her Frozen Band-Aids. Now, Frozen's one of the movies that we haven't really watched with River. I think we put it on, like, when we were just, like, kind of new to introducing Disney movies to River,

and we were kind of finding what we wanted her to watch, we've really leaned into some of the classics. So I think it was like at least over a year since we've turned on Frozen for River. And Natalie got the Frozen Band-Aids and she off the box looked at the box and it had Elsa, the two princesses. And immediately River started singing,

let it go, let it go. And I'm like, how does she know that song? Like we haven't played that movie for her. That's crazy. It's been like over a year. That's crazy. No, it's crazy. It's just part of pop culture, man.

Yeah, she's a pop girl. I guess, but I don't, I don't, she's a pop girlie. It's crazy how kids, like, yeah, it's crazy how, like, smart, like young kids are and, like, how much you will just, like, soak up pop culture. I found an old, like, home movie of me, like, the other week when I was, like, probably, like, four or five. It was an old video of me singing 50 cents in the club and the lion sleeps tonight.

Nice. How does your dad feel about it? you knowing the lyrics to in the club. Oh, he didn't care. Yeah, great. It was, it's a video of my mom and my sisters singing, going, Mary, sing, go shorty. Like, they were encouraging it. But it's just, like, really funny the way kids' brains will, like absorb everything. To this day, I associate those two songs together. River is the most curious child ever. I can't, like, be chewing something without her going, what you have in? And it'll be like a chocolate covered almond. And I'm like, nothing. I have nothing in my mouth. She's like, no, open your mouth. What do you have?

Haven. I'm like, she wants to know. Nothing. I love it. Are you guys going to encourage your children to have jobs at 11, 12 years old? Are they going to be? For sure. I remember like I was like there was a mom and pop gas station like right up the street from our house. And when I think went right up the street, it was actually like too far of a walk for us to be walking. But we were definitely walking there. And we'd walk up to the gas station and stock the shelves for them like stock the refrigerator. The drinks. the refrigerator section, the shelves, and he was giving us, like, cash under the table. Well, Natalie actually recently sent me this really, I don't know if it was a TikTok or real or whatever, but it talked about, like, the reason why it's important to give your kids responsibility and chores early in life. And part of it is just like making him feeling involved in the family, you know, just helping out. It gives them, it gives like kids purpose, you know, when, you know, like, when we're changing the twins diapers, Rivers, like, wants to be helpful.

You know, she's only two and a half, so she's limited and what she can do. But like, you can tell she feels involved, right? And so I think part of that is giving kids responsibilities early in life and chores. It's not like to teach them necessarily a work ethic, but it makes them feel purposeful and it makes them feel like they belong to the family. And the way like this clip that Natalie sent me like, you know, framed it. I thought was like it made a lot of sense.

I mean, we've always thought about doing that, but it kind of framed it in a more positive rather than like, I'm going to make my sure my kids work and things like that. But it also made me realize because I remember seeing, and people gave me so much advice on this when right before the twins were born. And it was like, what do you do? You know, how do you make River, your toddler, like not feel forgotten? And it was like, oh, have them like help with tasks.

And then a lot of people were like, no, don't make them do that because then they, like, they want to be a kid, like make them still feel like they're a kid and not like they have these jobs or something. And so I was really battling with what to do. And then now that we're in it and you see, like this morning. I had all three girls. Nick went back to sleep and I was breastfeeding both of them. River was sitting beside me. We had Hercules on. And I needed a burp cloth. And I was like, River, I need you to go get a burp cloth. It's in your sister's room on the dresser. And she was like, oh, my sister's room. On the dresser. And she was like, on the dresser. And I'm like, yeah, baby, on the dresser. And she's like, this one. And she comes out. She's like, this one. I'm like, yes, that one. She's like, okay. She's so proud of herself for like finding the right. thing. So I feel like definitely including your kids. Yeah, because at the time, they don't know that they don't know it's a chore or that it's work. Well, it also like, it doesn't have to be.

Like, Nick, I mean, you have like a bunch of siblings. Like I, like, growing up, I had like four older siblings and we were like a blended family. They're my half siblings. But they were like, you know, kids and teenagers when I was growing up. So they were like babysitting, taking care of me like all the time. And like that was never like that's just like part of the family dynamic. It's like not even a chore. It's just like you're spending time with your family. And on the cleaning stuff, I remember like, oh my God, I would get so mad when I had to like clean baseboards and stuff.

But also it was like I was hanging out with now looking back like everyone's an adult and everyone's moved on. And like we all have such different lives now. And I'm like, man, there were days when we were just like fighting over cleaning baseboards and like my like old house. I mean, shit back in the day, little house on the prairie style, you, you had kids to help the farm. You know, like you was like you literally. they were your workers, you know. I'm glad we progress as a society. Yeah, child labor, don't do that.

Don't do that. Yeah, but like there is something to be said about like giving your kids responsibility early in life. It's like you're taking care of your home, you know? It's less like it's less doing a chore and more just like, you know, making sure your space is nice. And being a kid isn't just about like, I don't know what it is to like,

it's not just about having fun. I mean, parenting is like from early stages. I really feel like my and Natalie's only job is parents is to prepare them for life, you know, to teach them various lessons so that when they're on their own, they can have a successful life on their own and we're not available to be there for them. And I don't think you can start too early to like teach them lessons and, you know, give them a sense of purpose and individual accomplishment. And that's more than just like playing on the playground, you know, and you can do both. Well, continuing on with talking about people

named Natalie, Dove, Iris, Nick. We've got Liv and Natalie from The Girls. I'm excited because I actually went to the, like, debut party at Nobu. I met Chloe. It was at Nobu. Of course. It was kind of iconic. And, yeah, I saw all the girls from the cast.

I didn't meet anyone except for Chloe, which, I mean, not a bad person to meet. No. Yeah. So it was really cool. I feel like the vibes were high, guys. Lovely. Yeah. What was Chloe's vibe?

I mean, she's so kind. She's really just like such a kind person. She took pictures with like literally anybody that asked her. Her body was insane. I will say the one person that really stood out from the cast was Natalie. She just exuded like kindness. I don't know how to describe it. Like I made eye contact with her a few times and she smiled at me like just and I didn't actually, this isn't to sound bad, but I showed up like not really knowing the cast. And I was like, wait, whoever that girl is is just so kind. Just like intentional. Yes, intentional. And like. like I'm a nobody. I'm just at her event, whatever. And she just like made really nice gestures like multiple times throughout the night where I was like, wait, I don't know who she is, but I'm going to root for her all season. Now I'm a fan, I'm a follower. You've got your girl.

I've got my girl. Well, I think there's this a huge fascination with obviously the Kardashians and the Jenners and that whole like group of friends. And this show, the girls, is centered around kind of like what it's like to be best friends with some of the most famous people in the world. And to your point, Susie, I didn't know what to expect when we had live. in that ear. I was, you know, quite honestly, a little intimidated, uh, wasn't sure like what they knew about us and, and, uh, were they too cool for us type of thing. But like to your point,

like, and you'll get to know them when you listen to this interview with Nat and Liv, but some of the most down to earth kind people, it was really just, um, which is like, I didn't, I didn't know what to expect, right? You kind of like, this is a show about people who have these very fantastical lives, a lot of privilege, a lot of access to celebrities, and just like, you know, just extraordinary lives and like what is it like to live in this world? And this is an opportunity, obviously, to get to know two of these women. And I really enjoyed the conversation that Justin and I had with them. It was a lot of fun.

Yeah. My favorite part from the show was, honestly, like, I really like Nicole. Nicole's been like just bringing a lot of fun stuff. And she had this part where she was talking about seeing something on like her. her man's phone and she called herself a find out ologist. Same. Yeah. It's just like...

I identify with that. You identify as a find outologist. Yeah. I think that if I have an inkling... I think all women are find outologist. Yeah. Exactly. I think you give me like...

We're the FBI. A little edible, a little glass of wine. I'm going to find out. You know what I mean? If I have a gut suspicion. For sure. Social media makes it... I wouldn't say so easy, but a lot easier.

They really? Because you'll be like talking about it with your girlfriends and you're like, oh my gosh like you know are they doing this are they doing that where are they and then the algorithm is like let me show you everything you want to see i'll show you the photos that he liked i'll show you people you may know yeah people you may know oh people you may this is what they said on threads if you were curious yeah it's an interesting tagged photo ah yeah a woman's intuition is best um is best served with the algorithm. Yes.

Would you say? Yeah. Well, these are a group of women. There are moms. They are friends. They are fascinating people and they are up next. And following our conversation with Nat and Liv, we are going to dive into the Lindsay Clancy case that is really kind of taken over in terms of the discourse. And if you weren't following a couple weeks ago, I think everyone has heard it from me.

They're following it themselves or heard it from a friend. A lot of fascinating. conversations, some dark conversations, but we are going to try to tackle those conversations following our conversation with Nat and Liv. And we have a very special guest. Our booker, Angela, actually, is going to join us because when we were talking about how we were going to, what guests we might book for this case, she was very gracious enough to open up about her own postpartum experiences, something that she dealt a lot with and has a very, like, very passionate and very direct take on this case

as someone who experienced postpartum depression and anxiety herself. So following a very light, fun conversation with Nat and Liv, we will get into this case that everyone is talking about. So stick with us. Up next, Nat and Liv. Live, Nat, welcome to the show. Thank you.

Thank you. You're nervous? Are you nervous? I'm a little nervous. Why are you nervous? You guys are like... Because this is the big time, though. You have a great show. No, but you do.

Well, I hope you. you're not nervous. We're just friends hanging out having a conversation. I got to start by watching the first episode. Yeah. Your name's Nat. My wife's name is Nat. You have a daughter named Dove. Yes. We recently have a daughter named Dove. Dove and Iris. Our twins were born six-ish week.

Oh, my God. And then you have an Iris on the show. There's a Nick somewhere. Your wife's middle name is Joy. And my middle name is Joy. So we were like Natalie Joy because we do Natalie. That's incredible. We were just And then our best friend's name is Nick. My best friends name is Nick, who's also on the show. And you and your wife filmed Age of Attraction in Van, no?

Yeah, in Vancouver. You guys. Small world. Okay. Why aren't we best friends? I don't know. We are now. Well, congratulations on the show.

It's very exciting. I know a lot of people are already talking about it. Like, how does it feel? Like, are you equally excited? Are you nervous? Like, you both have done reality TV before. So I'm just curious, compared to your previous experience on reality TV, what do you hope is different and what do you hope is the same about this experience? Yeah, I think one of the

main things that, because we've been doing press all week and stuff, that is different is the show we were on before called Weggs. We were kind of paired up with gals that we didn't know. Okay. So with this show, it's actually a group of six friends, like authentic friends. There's no like having to pin someone in who has never been around. Like we've all been around each other 10 plus years. So that in itself is different. And I think just reality TV has changed a bit since last time. Yeah, it really has. You know, we've not been on.

We had our own show after Wigs with their family. But that was probably 2018, 19. I also feel like there's just so much more reality TV. You know what I mean? I feel like back like 10 years ago there was like a few pocket shows. Maybe there was more than that. But like now it seems like there's like so much. Right.

Right. We're no long. I mean, the Kardashians have always been obviously a very different. Yeah. Read or element. Totally. And quite frankly, they've been the pioneers of taking the space. seriously where like you know I come from The Bachelor it was like right the butt of a lot of jokes

and still and still is sometimes but it is it is cool to just be a part of this space and yeah and that separate there was it used to be a clear distinction between like star and reality tv star yeah they didn't mix and they did not make it not mix and like B or D team with reality I thought it was very but now it's they're all the same it's yeah I love that that's why I feel like this time if anybody watches I feel really honored honestly because I'm like there's so much content you can watch it everywhere there's social media that's just like watching a show all day long anyways so if anyone actually cares to watch I'm like wow that's so nice yeah 100% we've been having fun doing like this time around which is different too is TikTok when we're on wags and our own relatively not

live show so late to the game I'm just starting there was not TikTok but we're hitting all these trends and we're like you know are we are trying you can dance well we haven't really done the dance ones, but like the fun, cute ones that are like cheeky where you're like mouthing something or wow, we sound so old. Well, interestingly enough, obviously you were on the wag show, which was really popular when it was on. But even the wag space is like really, like there's, like, there's taken off. There's a greater fascination.

Totally. Yeah. Again, with this space, call it reality TV, call it influencing, just like people being public figures and personas like lifestyles, right? And I think that's honestly what the Kardashians and the Jenner's ever. really like they started as like this kind of lifestyle, you know, aspirational. I think women, people look at you women and this group of friends and you, you guys are the pin of me of like, I want this life. Is there a lot of pressure around that or is there pressure on

authenticity? Like how do you find that balance between showing your true authentic self or do you have pressure to live a certain lifestyle and live a certain type of aspirational style knowing how fans see you women? think what's been nice with anyone, not even just in reality TV and stuff, but just with age, you get wisdom. And you kind of grow this don't give an F vibe, meaning this time around two, we were just like, this is who we are. We were so vulnerable. We were so open, maybe a little too open. We've all been joking. Like, you really feel like you're in like the girls group chat, which is sometimes vulgar, sometimes maybe low-key, even inappropriate. I don't know. But

I don't think I feel like so much pressure. I feel like in myself, like this is who I am. am, like confident in who I am. I hope people like it. I hope people enjoy. I think you're going to feel like you're one of the girls watching. But yeah, I don't particularly feel pressure. Yeah. And I think too, just from being on social media for so long, it come a bit like numb to the fact that like people are watching you. I don't know. It sounds terrible, but it's been so long. And I'm like, wait, what? Someone is paying attention, you know? It's like, but that's a real thing. And yeah, I don't feel pressure from it. And how did you ladies become friends with Chloe and and the whole family

because I think there's a lot of fascination behind that and I think there's just a lot of people like, how do I become part of this group? How do I get in there? When we first moved here to Beyond Weggs, we had to make a artist named Ariel living with us. He's so talented and he got the opportunity to do the Kardashians glam.

I think it was Kylie and Kim. And that was back in the day when like an aesthetic Instagram feed was like so cool and I was really about that life. and um kind of because there's no video yeah the videos really just like the one photo without the carousel yeah simpler time yeah it's also harder now sometimes with like the domes those are curated too I know absolutely there's so much work it's quadruple the work why are we doing this yeah that's how we found

yeah totally so I think at the time she was wanting to like make her page a bit more curated and ariel was like you should meet natalie like she's really good at that and he's like Kim, Kim's going to call you. Let's see if you like, just chat with you about it and stuff. And I was like, that's normal. Did it feel like an interview? I mean, no, she was so nice and normal instantly. And then we started working together.

And just because of that, we were texting, like, daily, naturally. And we just were, like, fast friends. Like, it felt like I was just talking to my friend from home. She was so nice and normal. And then very quickly, we all became really good friends. And then that, did you bring Liv into the picture? Well, it's just so natural because we were talking every single day. And then she'd invite me somewhere and then she's with me.

And it's just like, and then obviously they became fast friends because we're just honestly, like coming from Canada and being so like family oriented. People always like ask us. And it's like we felt like when we met them, we felt like we met like our people. We're like, oh, this is our tribe. They literally have the same values as us. They view family the same. They treat their siblings the same way we treat our family and siblings. There's just so much similarities that you just.

just couldn't even like dream it up. So it was just such a natural fit for us and we just became like really good friends. And you two are cousins. Yes. Yeah. Our moms are sisters. Okay. And have you always been close or is that a relationship that has evolved over the years. No. Always. We have. We have, we have, there's so many siblings and stuff that we're all like siblings. Everyone kind of has like a a partner or a pairing almost. Even our moms are like best friends. And then we're best friends. Our brothers are best friends. Our brothers are best friends. Our sisters are best friends. And then we're all best friends. How many siblings do you guys have?

There's a lot between all of us. I have four. Four is two. Yeah. And then we have other cousins, but that's the core. I'm curious, what is, like, maybe the biggest misconception about this friend group or being friends with the Kardashians and the Jenners that you feel like either is just untrue or you find frustrating?

I think kind of just to speak on what I was just, like, talking about was just, I think people I feel like I get the feeling that they just think there's something like unworld like they're out of this world or something and that they must be something and it's just like the biggest misconception that there isn't really a misconception they're so nice they're so normal they're so lovely family oriented and moving to LA they were the most lovely normal people we've met of a lot of people so it's just like we don't have our family here so for us we tell them all the time they're kind of like a home-based vibe for us which is like very special and needed because we miss our family. And I'm sure you ladies have, you know, L.A. is just a funny place. Wait, are you guys born and raised here? No. I'm from Southern California. So we're all implants as they say. Yeah.

Transpents. You know, you come here and there's a lot of wannabes and there's a lot of people pretending. Everyone's a manager or a publicist. And it turns out they're not. They want to know what you do. Yeah. They want to know what you do. So it makes a lot of sense that people like the Kardashians and the Jenner's, like they don't have to try to be anything.

They're not. Yeah. And they don't have to be deceiving and they don't have to overhype themselves. because like everyone has that LA story of like someone making themselves feel more important, getting you to trust them and then you realize you're being used. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

So it makes a lot of sense. We've been here for like a decade now, but it took us a long time to like be like, okay. Like we think we get our footing for sure. Because yeah, we just were taken back all the time by all the different personalities and we just were so innocent and like what? Very gentle. We're very like, oh, what you say is what you mean, right?

And we're like, nope. No, no, no. No, no. No, no. What was maybe your craziest welcome to L.A. story? This was like 11 years ago now, and we were still in our party phase. And her boyfriend at the time was like one of the kings of the city. Like he knew everyone, every restaurant, every club.

So we just plopped in drinking every day almost, filming wags. We're like, we're on a TV show. We're drinking and having fun. So we just hit the ground running. As far as a story, I'm sure we have some. What city did you guys move to specifically in L.A.? West Hollywood. Okay.

So party area. Definitely. We're like right on Los Egana basically. Croft Alley was the street. There's obviously a lot of ladies and women out there who I think it would be very exciting to meet a professional athlete and marry a professional athlete. What is one of the biggest misconceptions or things that people don't realize if, you know, if they're out there and like, oh, I hope this happens to me someday. What would you say or like words of advice for anyone who is like, I hope I meet someone who is in the space? I think is like glamorous as people might think it is.

You really are, if you're in a serious relationship with somebody that plays the professional sport, you are like really taking on their career. Like there's no way around it. Like if you want to spend time together, they are like very busy. And so you have to be kind of willing to like really double up with their guys. Yeah. Travel with them. Yeah, travel with them.

And or not. And then it's time away from them, which that's tough. Like, and then you have kids and maybe a team. You'd get traded, you move, you know, it's, yeah. What is like a post, a bad loss? Oh, my God. A game. Like, what is that?

Is that a, what, how do you guys handle, like, a bad loss with your partner? I think, like, you would have to be prepared to be, I mean, it depends what the guy wants, right? Some guys maybe, like, shut off and don't share that part with their partner. But in the relationships I've been and I usually found myself in the seat of being, like, sports psychologist most times. I mean, I played really competitive sports growing up. What did you play? So, I played soccer. Oh, right?

So I felt like I was just. naturally always talking about that with them and then they obviously wanted to debrief and it just depends but it's really like you have to let them have their space and time to work through it but yeah it's definitely is like all about that like there's no just like games over

and you last let's go yeah maybe and as far as the girl show do you are you playing personal like do you guys come in being like all right this is kind of the persona I want to have or like storylines like what can people expect by watching the show?

forgot about all that. It was like we had like a meeting at the beginning like with our producers stuff like I'll talk like storyline stuff and you're like wait what oh my god I forgot about all well not even storyline just like what do you have going on. That's what I mean. Yeah for people that aren't on TV really TV that's what that means. You have to have a little prep of like hey what do you have coming up just don't have a birthday just I'm going to have a travel plans you know but no we kind of just go in being ourselves. It also happens so fast. That's the difference of this show we'll say too is such a quick turnaround. It was like a six weeks. week filming, which at least where we come from, that is like not normal. Usually you have at least

a couple months. Like eight months. Yeah. Sometimes wags was like eight months. It's crazy. But it was super fast for us. And even the crew to shoot, like we had two different crews. So it was a different way of filming for us even as well. But no, we kind of like, you know, we like to at least give our all. Like we're not the type we're going to sit. We know cameras are there. We're not going to sit in a bump and a log. But no, we kind of just are. That was what's going on in our life at real time. Has it ever, like, whether it's filming this show or WAGs,

has the drama on the show, like, how have you guys worked? I mean, I'm assuming it's, like, you know, real drama, right? So, like, how do you balance between what we see on camera and what happens on camera versus, like, when the cameras are off? Yeah. Like, has you, have you had to, like, mend in fixed relationships? And have you, ladies, have ever, like, got into it where it was almost like, I don't know, I need to, like, I need a break?

For us, I think just because we are such like sister vibes, it's like, whatever, like love you. We might bigger, but it's like sisters where you can say F off and then go watch me be together. It's never like that deep. But I feel like this environment and this friend group, like any friend group, I feel like being in the pressure cooker environment of filming and just spending way more time together that you normally would never spend together. Just like obviously breeds like conflict naturally unintentionally. And getting to know people on a new level, right? Totally. Yeah, so good. Yeah, like obviously we're best friends and family

and then our other girlfriend, Nicole. Naturally, we were on wags with her. We've been friends with her for 15 years. Whereas some of the other gals, we've been friends for 10 years, but maybe not on that deep of a level. So then come together, us six in that pressure cooker. And like you said, even if it's close as us,

like you usually don't spend that much time together in days and consecutive and traveling. So you find out people's quirks and how they do things, how they work. how they fly, how they travel, you know. So it did have in real time a lot of things popping up where we are all kind of like, oh, oh, oh. And like, as far as working through it, like, I have to say it's still work in progress.

Yeah. We'll leave that there. I mean, honestly, that's my favorite part of, like, the girls. Because, like, I think a lot of people are fans with the Kardashians, as they should be. But my favorite part was always, like, the twins or, like, the supporting family members, I would say, like, friends that have become family. Yeah. You guys got that and got to stand on your own.

Was there a little bit of pressure of like, how do we do this without the Kardashians? Which I think you guys probably know you could do it anyways. So for us, you know, being on Weggs and having your own show however long ago, we kind of decided during COVID I just had my daughter. We were like, let's just like, we're both deathly introverted. You both are? Yes. So we needed to like hibernate for a long time to like get our like energy back. And we just thought maybe reality TV isn't for us.

And a lot of people like production companies had approached us. And we just were like, like just didn't feel good, feel right. And then during the fires last year, we were staying with our friend Nicole. And the wags rewens were on Hulu. And we were like, you know what? Like all our fans really want us to go back. Like should we? We're just like, toying with it.

We're all like, we should. Maybe we should. But we were like, do we do it alone? Like, what do we do? And then we were at Tatum's birthday party at Chloe. last year. And we saw Iris and Lake and Kedesha there and like a light bulb went off. Like, hey, do you guys want to do this with us? You know, we had kind of some creative ideas. We had for how we wanted it shot and what cameras we wanted to use and stuff. They're like, we love this.

Like amazing. And they had other stuff going on to that they were possibly going to do. But I think just kind of like us, it felt right to do it together. And then when everyone was like, yes, I just went over to Chloe and was like, hey. So. You want to produce this? And she was like, hell yeah. And she was like, hell yeah. So the idea was born from you guys. Yeah. And then she was like, I love this. And then she's just amazing.

And then before you knew it, we were on a call with Hulu and the vision was just like coming to life. So yeah, it was just really exciting and really kind of in alignment because it happened. I also love that. It's kind of like gossip girl vibes. Yeah. Like Chloe's like not necessarily there, but she's narrating. Yeah. So we were thinking originally we had like sex in the city like as our inspiration.

So it's really fun because we wanted that and we shot it that way. for the sizzle. And then somehow we started doing interviews again. And we were like, wait, what? We didn't want the interviews in there. And then they ended up taking them out later. So it ended up being how we wanted it to. But we don't know how that's going to read.

But I think people might like it. It's a good change. I loved it. I was upset. Did you? Okay. Does Chloe have a lot of decision-making power in terms of like what we get to see or not see?

Or is that more like network? I think Chloe's the queen. So I think, I mean, I don't know. I don't know either. I'm sure if she could imagine if Chloe wants something, probably could be done. Has she should? I think so, too. It would seem like.

I would think, but I don't know. I have been like pride to be like, hey, so can you get whatever you want? But I think so. I'd imagine she has a good relationship with everyone at Hulu and, you know. Yeah. Obviously when it comes to being a public figure influencer, there's a whole kind of debate and conversation around including kids and things like that. It's something like Nellie and I, you know, we don't, I just like, we don't fucking know. Like, every day is like, should we should.

I know, the shame and then not. The shame. Okay, don't even give me started a mom shaming. I know. I know. So it's like just moms are being shamed. Totally. Just.

Yeah, a bunch of non-moms. Yeah. And then you get shamed if you don't talk about it because now are you even a mom? Like, are you ignoring your kids? No, it's crazy because like being a new dad, like the thing I'm the most passionate about is like being a dad and like supporting my partner. And it's a topic that like every time I want to talk about, I'm always like trying to thread a needle. And it's like I don't want to offend anymore.

Yeah. I know. And I want to talk about. out this, how this worked for me. Like literally over the weekend, now I got PTSD. Oh no. Because like she, you know, I don't know. Right.

Yeah. Fans are, like, trolls are trolls. Yeah. And she posted this video. It was like, we had the nan, we have the nanette. Yeah. Shout out. Oh, yeah.

And she just like, she, it's, she loves going watching moments because like, there's just so many special moments when you're lying in bed with your, yeah, right? I guess we didn't sleep train. I don't really know what that even means. So she was like, yeah. And she was like. Like she just wanted to talk about how she's really enjoyed these moments of like going to bed with River. And then she turned.

It turned into a whole like apparently she's mom shaming the sleep trainers. It was a whole thing. She just wanted to talk about her experience. And it's just like why can't parents just talk openly about what's worked for them? What's not worked for them? Because as you ladies know, being a parent is like there's always best practices. And it's super helpful to hear. But like every kid's different, every situation is different.

Totally. Doesn't apply to every kid for sure. And it's just like, every parent just wants to be like, I could use all the help I could get. We're just doing the best they can, obviously. How do you guys like come up with those decisions? And, you know, like with being as, you know, prominent and, you know, as popular as you are, then, you know, the more fans you have, the more critics you have, how do you manage that aspect? Because I'm sure you ladies have had to deal with that in, like, times 10. For me, I, it's hard to say, but like, I've only had really kind of pictures of my daughter online and I've really toyed with that because there's like a whole group of people that are like, oh my God, there's so many perverts out there. Like you shouldn't have pictures of a little girl online. And then I totally like, I understand that. I agree with that. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I shouldn't. But then I'm like, this is also my life and I'm so proud of her. And like, my life is her. So then I was like, it feels maybe not authentic, not sharing her. And then like, we're living in a world where we're living in a world where you're.

can't share a sweet photo with your daughter because there's, you know what I mean? No, I know. I also don't want to live in that. Every day we take a picture and it's like we kind of at this point we have, we, we, the first year we just shared whatever. Right.

The twins were kind of the same thing. Yeah. And then we kind of are like, we don't want to show reverse phase. And then we take a, there's all these great moments that we want to share, but we feel like we made this decision. So if we go back on that decision. We don't know if it's the right decision.

Like we don't fucking know. I know. And then it's just like, you know, Nally, she, funny enough. like a month ago she accidentally posted like in her stories and she got really upset about it and I was like almost glad that it happened

because it made me almost realize like why we are doing what we're doing in terms of not posting and it's not about not sharing because kind of to your point like if people want to see what our kids look like sadly I know like they're gonna figure

there's cameras everywhere but it's more like I guess we just decided like we're fine with our fans having a relationship with us. It just gets weird when people come up to you and go, I reckon, oh, is that river? And that's kind of a little.

And they mean well, but it's like, that gets a little uncomfortable. Sometimes we get recognized like through my daughter first. And I'm like, oh. And that's like, oh. That's a little weird. She's a celebrity now. Yeah. So, yeah, it is, it is tricky.

And I feel like my opinion on it changes kind of regularly. But even approaching the show, it happens so fast for us. I didn't really have time to really. think through or decide like exactly how I felt about it. So you see me like in real time, especially episode one, kind of finding my footing with that. But yeah, she's on the show. She's not in storylines, you know, but she's there because it's weird because I'm trying to be authentic and my whole life is with her. Like every spare moment I have, she's with us like all the time. So it'd be weird to film a show and have not have her on it. And a lot of the other girls

have their kids on it. So I didn't want her to be left out. But yeah. She's just not like in story. Have you gotten any advice from like Chloe or Cam about that in terms of how to handle that? Because obviously they have to deal with that as well. I mean, I think for them it's like inevitable. Their life is just so public. I don't know how much if they tried to not. Like it's like, okay, it's just happening anyways.

So I'm just, I'm still learning that. Challenge. And that's the thing. There's no right answer. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's just important to say no one should shame anybody else for their parenting decisions or choices. Totally. Because that's just. You wish that would be obvious. being a bad parent for doing that. That's crazy. It's always just like the next. Well, and I was saying because like we travel a lot and real life is, that's not real life.

Real life is, you know, if Natalie saw you, you would be like, you got this. It's always support. It's always moms like validating each other, picking each other up. You never, you never see that in real life. You only see it online. Yeah. And I always wonder like, who are the people that just like, are they just alone in bed and just like? You don't even like, what do you do?

You can't fathom. like typing a mean comment. I can't fathom. I just can't. Well, it's such a low vibration thing to do. So you have to remember that when you're reading it, like when it's coming to yourself. You've got to remember that came from such a low vibration. Low vibration is exactly what it is.

You know what I mean? So like why let it into your space? Yeah. If it makes you feel bad, it came from a bad spot. I forget. What's your relationship status? Are you both in relationship? We're both single.

We're both single. And is that going to be a big part of this of the season of you guys navigating and dating life? It is a little bit of dabbling. You have to say, boys, there is a little bit. There is. I haven't dated literally since my daughter was born. Is that like an active choice or it is an active choice? Yeah, active choice. I've realized which I talk with us on the show and it might be boring for some people, but I did discover like I create the same pattern in relationships. I'm old enough to like spot my patterns and I definitely am an avoidant. So like after a period of time, I tend to turn off and relationships.

The one year. The one year ick? Yes. Yeah. I think she's one year. Why a year? Why is it taking me? I mean, it doesn't always take a year for me.

Trust me, it can happen a lot faster than that. It's been a little before and a little after. What is your most ridiculous ick? I mean, I don't know. Something just like biologically happens in me and the poor soul could do like the most average thing. It's not a specific thing. No.

I have learned that the average egg, at least with my wife, is a general clumsiness. But she still loves you. For sure. You know what I mean? That's different. She tells the story that we were driving one time, and I hit a bump. And I didn't even realize this, but like I... Levitated.

I came off. And she can. How unmanly of you. And I... That was it. Thank God we were in a good place in our relationship. It's so real, though. Like, I see what she's saying.

We were on our honeymoon. Girls get the craziest. We were on her honeymoon. And this is after I became aware of what would ichter. And I attempted to hop out of the pool. Oh, no. slipped. Oh no. Nick I can see you at now. I know.

I was, I'm sorry. Immediately I was like, I'm like, now. You should just went to the bottom and now I do things and I'm like I'm like, bottom of the pool. Like I know. I've become self-o. That helps. So if you call the ick-o, that just helps. It eases the ick blow for sure. I feel like, babe, don't, I just know that. Just forget you didn't see that.

Anything demure. Yeah. You did bring up the example if you can throw a ball better than him. Absolutely. Kind of makes sense. If you could run faster than him? We played sports growing up so, and I have three other brothers. She has an older brother. She has an older brother, our dad's played sports, that makes sense. If I can throw a baseball and he can't, I'm sorry. I mean, everybody's different, right?

But we do tend to be attracted to, like, an alpha, like, masculine male. That's just our preference. Okay. That's our preference. So in that genre of men that we like, yeah, if I can run faster than you, I can throw a ball better than you and you throw it like Tom Cruise and that can be in top. gun.

I don't know my dad always made this reference because oh, he throws like a girl I'm in a really well it's no it's hilarious watching actors

plays far as because you can really tell. You can tell the ones who did or didn't yeah. Right. So yeah

it's just all those things like I'm not going oh damn daddy like you're so hot but I just you know I don't know I don't want to be you in our wrestle.

Everyone has their preference I think that's a real one we don't need to What are your green flags? Green flags Family person Family person someone you could see

being a good dad just Straight up kind. You know, I don't like people that are rude to like a server or Uber driver. Especially in LA too. Yeah, I just, I peep all those because those are the things that like matter. People think you don't see and like, I don't like that at all. I'm sorry, that's an ick.

Someone that has a healthy relationship with their parents, especially their mom as a man, like a healthy one. Emotionally mature. It's nice. No, it's funny. I have a guess I call him a friend. He's a friend. I often tell me he's a horrible person. He would, you know, he was, did your club promoter kind of like, you know, guy and just always had a different girl.

Not settling down type. And one time we were out and he was just talking so much shit about his mom. Yeah, no. And I was like, this all makes a lot of sense. You know, like you should unpack that. I was literally like you need to get therapy. Totally. Yeah.

You shouldn't talk about your mom that way. Totally. Any type of like self development or therapy is definitely a green flag. Like the fact they've done that on their own without a woman like initiating it for them, that's like, wow. And being a single mom, you know, obviously there's a lot of women out there who are moms who, you know, have a lot of insecurities about feeling desired or are they going to find someone who's going to accept the fact that they are moms. Is that something you also have felt? No. No.

No. And what advice would you have then for the moms out there who have that kind of? of internalizing security. How can they get to a place like you where you're just proud. I'm a mom. I'm owning it. I don't know. I feel like that kind of plays in, to be honest, of the avoidant in me, like in a way to start. And I think that's why often I get in the situations I'm in. I do have a really good self-concept. And I think that's from like my dad growing up. Like I just have never questioned my self-worth. So for me, which I'm very thankful. I know that's not a common thing. But for me having this like amazing daughter, my life is so much fuller and more beautiful.

It just doesn't even enter like my brain, that that would be a or an ex-advantage. Just dove like her name. She loves it. It's a good name. It is a good name, right? Yeah, I think just when you go out there dating no matter what you're, you know, whether you have a kid or don't have a kid, it's just not, it's not about thinking about what someone else would want. You know what I mean? Like, why would you care?

Oh, someone's going to care that I have a kid. it just should be like how you feel about yourself and just be confident. I know it's so much easier to say. Being as high profile as you ladies are, is it difficult to meet people? Like how do you meet people? Do you need to get set up? I don't know. I haven't tried actively.

Yeah, I mean, I'm somewhat dabbling because I would like to have children. So I got to meet someone to do that. And yeah, it's true. I know. There's ways. But I, for me, I would love to do it with partner. Yeah. I'm very like old school traditional.

My dad's pastor growing up. Like I have this like vision in my mind of, but yeah, I think it's a little tough. But I am the girl who's like, I'm not going to put down, you know, you hear women go,

it's so hard to date in L.A. Or like it's so hard to this or that or put down men. I'm very optimistic. I feel like I can meet him in a DM. I can meet him in your office out there. I can meet him on a plane. Like I can meet him in Vegas.

You can meet him in a club when people are like, you know what I meet him in a club? I could because I'm there. I don't go often, like at all. but I went that night. Maybe he went that night because a buddy's in town or something.

So I'm optimistic. It's not really going right now. But. Hey, listen, it's tough. It's tough anywhere. The toughest part about dating, right? And I didn't find my person until late in life. Right.

You know, is having high standards and then also being patient. Yeah, that's it. Because, like, those two don't go together. They do not. That's it. It's like, you know, I talk to somebody to people about dating.

It's like, I've been on like, 15 dates and I didn't like any of them. I'm like, great. You're not supposed to. How often you walk into a place and go, there's one in every bar? No, they're a gem for a reason. They're just.

I just feel like I'd rather be single for the rest of my life than be with somebody that is not like a good fit. Like I just, ugh, forget it. Like I just, and that's the other thing. Like you just said, nail on the head is like, of course I could have by now, I'm sure, do that. But I would feel like I would be settling.

It wasn't the right fit. And I do feel like I'm doing so much self work on myself as of late, like more than ever, that I'm just preparing myself to be the best version of me. When I meet him, I honestly, it sounds psycho. But I know when I meet him, it's going to be like, yep, done. Okay. Yep. Kids, merit. Yeah.

Let's do this. Yeah. Well, that's how honestly my heart feels. The universe will bring you the right. Totally. So I'm not really like tripping. I spent a couple of years being like, oh, you know, because my friends are having kids and I want them. I'm, yeah.

Panic vibes. and I feel like I maybe was even giving off that energy. And I've really just settled in. Like I'm focused on my work, my family, myself, my health. And I think he's just going to show up sooner than later. You made a comment about his like, there's a lot obviously discourse on the internet about like, it's just fun to hate on men these days.

Yeah. And certainly men deserve a lot of criticism that comes their way. Maybe I'm biased because I'm a guy. I just, it feels like that discourse has like gotten to a point where it's not helpful to anyone. Because again, like when it comes to relationship, you're just one half of the equation and everyone has flaws. Like, how have you been able to maintain a, let's almost like a weird question. How have you been able to maintain a positive opinion on men, given that it's like it's so easy to like your man fucks up and you're like, you're a gaslighting narcissist piece of shit.

You're like them all. And it's just as opposed to like, you know, maybe fucked up. I think I know what you're going to say. Well, I just feel like when that like era started on social media, it was, I'm like the. worst person for it because I already get the ex so fast and it really kind of fueled my like yeah like I don't need one forget it like they suck and like who needs them kind of not actually but do you know what I mean I like resonated a little bit with it and then I feel like now I'm in the place where I'm like hold on I need to like reevaluate the values that I'm like looking for and like look at my parents

are still together they've married god I don't know 40 50 almost 50 years 40 48 48 almost 50 sorry mom and dad but I'm just now starting to like really look into like why and how my dad was such a good dad and just I was going to say as you get older you like value different things and I just think I appreciate different things in men now that I'm older and when I look for a partner now I'm looking for different things you know and I think um I say that I just say that more so in like humanizing like the male like it's ridiculous women oftentimes have have this pedestal thing or a thing they've always dreamed of or whatever it is. And then you live enough life and you're like, they're never going to live up to that because it's in your own brain, right? But like I just feel like for me, I'm now humanizing. Like, man, that sounds terrible. But like, you know what I mean? Like I'm like, wow, they're just, like you said, a really big upswing of this like man hater vibes. And there are good men out there. And we have good men in our family, our dads, our brothers, or cousins and in our friends. Like, come on. I get it sometimes,

like you said. If someone's cheating and. Well, not. Being great, but I'm not going to go out there and have this negativity towards men. I want to meet a great man and a great partner, and I don't think that's the best way to go about it being like, I hate men. If I were to ask your dad for advice, being a dad of three young girls, what would you tell me? Oh my gosh, he'd be like. We call him Chief Helcro. He was a chief at the firehouse, and he is the man. My Uncle Jim is the best.

Oh, I don't even know. What would he say? Oh, my God. He is the most patient person you'll ever meet. He's very protective. Yeah, like, I've had boyfriends vanish from my life in high school. Really vanished. And I was like, so, like, why aren't you telling me back?

Like, what's happening? And then I found out, like, months later that they had a visit from my dad. Justified when you were, no? Oh, yeah, they were total losers. He was the guardian angel. Totally. I think, like you said, he did a really good job at self-concept. Both of our dads did, but yeah.

I mean, that makes a lot of sense because I think about, like, all I really want to teach my daughters is to believe in themselves. That comes from you 100%. And they're capable of anything. And I don't know what their hopes and dreams are going to be. I just want them to believe that they can accomplish them. And their first relationship with a man will be with you, remember? Yeah.

Yeah, I'm big on that. And then like, you know, it's just like you want to have, it's like you want to be have boundaries and be strict, but not like too strict, right? Like, I want them to be able to choose for themselves and just kind of no consequences, you know, like, and be able to own those mistakes. and learn from them. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's been fun so far. Yeah.

It's early, but it's a lot of fun. I think you and that will do great. I think you guys will do great. Your partnership, what I've seen online. You guys look like a great team. That's a thing.

It's a team. The fact that you've been like just trying and you care like that's such a huge like head start in a race that we all like don't really like understand that a lot of, that's like a big head start. Just. I am. It is surprised. caring and how invested I can tell already that you are and the questions that you're asking

It's fun you know like it's fun to you know this morning like we we've chosen not to do the night nurse thing Maybe we're psychos but like it's been a great memory but like I woke up at five now I wasn't feeling the best she was sleeping with river So I just fed the twins moment I let her sleep but like it's rewarding like it's not like oh I'm a hero it's more like I do it I get personal satisfaction from it so it's like a selfish thing but you know if not mostly women listen to the show, but like I wish more men would embrace how it can make them feel by just kind of showing up for their people in a way that it does seem like some men

don't fully embrace. Yeah, we say like even if my sister who's here, like we, women love the masculine energy. We want to feel taken care of. We do want to feel that the man's got it. At least us,

we do. I'm speaking for me. But like I feel like as the generations are going on, There's not as much like masculine, like, do you know, masculine energy out there? It's, it's... But I feel like, too, like what he's saying, like doing things that maybe traditionally were more like a feminine role, like helping with the kids or whatever.

No, but I'm viewing that as masculine. Me too. That's what I was saying. Because he's taking control. And my dad was always like that. Like taking care of your family just means taking care of your family. It doesn't necessarily mean like, like, my dad cooked growing up. Yeah.

Still to this day, grocery shops for my mom. Like, it's like... It's just like all hands on deck. That's a man. That a man's got it is more or less what I mean. Yeah, there's nothing more rewarding as a father or husband to say, I got it. I got it. No matter what it is.

And women love that. I love it. Yeah. So you're doing good. Are we going to be able to see any fun dates or dating stories in this season, some messy drama? The speed dating in general was. Or not, it's blind date. Yeah.

Did you get to see the episode? We saw the first episode. Okay. Yeah. I don't really know what's in it. Who was it? Like they hooked them up with the RIS's X. Yes.

I was like, oh my God, I don't know if you could tell because I haven't seen it yet, but I was the same stuff. By the way, yeah. By the way, as an introverted person did not seem introverted. Okay, so I say, every introvert knows. I think it's weird. It's just exhausting. Exhausting. Yes.

I think it's called ammever. We're like introverted as F, but when you're out, I'm the top of the party. Yeah. So like being on a date, I can, and I'm such a good flirt, I think. I'm just like, I'm a Leo, I'm flirting. I can turn it on. And I enjoy it. And he was so fun to be with on the date.

But I was just, like, shocked at who it was. But yeah, I can turn it on. Like, you're just exhausted, like you said, at the end of it. You're like, you know they were watching you in wigs? No. And my eyes are bad. Like, I didn't have context. Blurred vision.

So even I had no idea. I was shocked. I was like, you mother. He is a very good catch, by the way. He's a very good dad. He's so handsome. He's so kind. He's so nice.

I like him a lot. I'm ready to watch. Never know. Well, I thought we'd play out just, not even a game, but a little round robin before you ladies go. I love a round robin. What's one word to describe your relationship with your castmates?

Malika. Oh my God. Nick? Complicated? Complicated? Codisia. Cool. Yeah, cool.

Fun. Iris. Well, me and Iris is a little bit different than you guys. So, yeah. Me and Iris, I guess it's a bit heated. Oh. By association, he did. Because we're family.

Nicole. Bestie. Family. And then Chloe. Family. Family. I mean, obviously she's like the matriarch of the show. Do you, if you were mad at Chloe.

Yeah. How would it, would you feel as comfortable communicating your frustrations with Chloe as you would say. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I might trust to Kim about it first. But. Yeah.

She's like us, though. She's introvert queen. We're exactly the same. So we of us are very similar that way. We have like an understanding that we don't even need to say something sometimes. But when we do, we talk very well with each other and hash it out. Yeah. She's great.

She's the best. Oh, wait. I heard you guys, you're like your fans of some Maryland TV. Did you watch the ultimatum? Yes. Do we know anybody on that? I don't think we know anyone, but we are fans of it. That'd be weird.

And we watched your guys in the show that you hosted. You guys did so good. That was a great. That was really good. I love the concept. When we turned it on, we're like, wait a sec. I think that's Van or Whistler. And then we found out it was.

But you guys did great. All that to say in Canada, like years ago before it was like trending on social media or anything, we were like two lunatics, like living in our farm town. And we were like, we're going to be on reality to be on E. And we were like waitressing at the time. And everyone's like, yeah, cute story. And we're like, no, really we are. We like cut our heads and put them on celebrities and put an E symbol on the middle of board.

We put American money because we're Canadian. We put everything. And we just told our parents like saw us doing it. And they're like, oh, yeah, go for your dreams, girls. And we were at our restaurant thought we're nuts because we were just verbally be like, oh, yeah, we're having a show one day. Yeah, we're going to be on eat. And they're like, sure, girls.

Because at that time it was kind of like, woohoo. Yeah, it really was. Because it was before Instagram was stuff too. That stuff matters. More than anything, I think I feel like menostation is just like following through with your dreams. And a blind faith. I think most people that don't have the guts

Or the delusion You gotta just be delusional You do like a little like Well we did sound nuts For sure they probably It's so specific though You just have to yeah You have to fight through it

And figure it out And fail a few times Oh yeah Totally totally Totally So yeah when the call They were like Oh yeah there's gonna show on E

Like do you guys want to be a part of it It was like oh we already knew Like yeah we were waiting for this call Yeah And they're like Oh we don't know it's just a pilot We're like oh no It's getting picked up

Yeah And they're like What? In full seasons. Every show we've done like a pilot for we have a knowing. And even with this one, we're like, oh, no, we're good. And it's been good. So far.

Yeah. What are you manifesting now? What's on the board? Season two, but I also feel like we kind of have it with that blind faith. But season two would be great because we enjoyed it. Totally. I feel like we have so much more to, like, say and show. And then our hair extension company, Harlock Hair, we're in the process of moving it to the U.S.,

but with tariffs and stuff, it's a bit of a doozy. but we just are manifesting that goes well and excels and we enjoy it and we're really passionate about that. And then I'm low-key always manifesting my hubby, you know. Yeah, I'm manifesting healing for myself so I'm not in a void in anymore so I can grow my family in a healthy way. Is it hard not to compete with each other as friends, you know, being as successful and as high profile as you all are? No. I don't compete. I've always been since like high school. Like if I sniff compete. I'm like, I don't like that. I don't like that energy. And again, same with like Kim and Chloe and all of them. When we met them, it was just like so refreshing that there is no ego.

And that's just like, oh my gosh. And me personally, I'm a really big like meditator. And I feel like I've had a lot of ego deaths over the last like decade especially. And that's even why I didn't even want to necessarily go back into this space. It's just like I don't really like need it, care for it, whatever. So I feel like I'm entering it in a different. spirit and like headspace. So yeah, it is interesting to see everyone navigate. Navigate the cameras going up and, yeah. Some things were shocking, some things. Yes, it's been a lot. Like I said, it's been a lot to digest.

I'm excited to keep watching. Still, we're glad to do that. It's a great show. It's on Hulu for anyone who wants to find it. It's out now. So check it out. I don't think I need to tell people to watch it. I think I feel like.

Do you feel? Okay. Because do you actually watch a lot of reality TV? I watch it all. You do? Probably with your wife. She probably drags in. They're a worse jobs.

Yeah. I know. You know? I know. Feeding some twins. You have it on. Yeah. It's true.

Okay. So after watching, you feel like what you saw of ours, you're like, locked in? I feel like the Kardashians and Chloe know what they're doing. I feel like, I mean, everyone loves aspirational. Yeah. Like, obviously, your group of friends and you women are, it's just, it's a fastening life. There are so many elements of you women, just the, just the, friendships you have, you know, the interesting people you day, your successful business

women. There's something for everyone in terms of aspiring to be. And it's, you know, everyone likes seeing a group of friends have fun and have a little drama. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit tea spilled. Yeah. Well, thanks for happiness. Yeah. Thanks guys. This is great. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. All right. All right. Thank you. Angela, welcome to the show. Thank you. I bet when we, when you came on to the team, you never I thought you'd be sitting on this couch and the... Never. Is this your first podcast?

No, I've been on podcasts, but only to discuss my career and to help other people, you know, get into the industry, but never to talk about my personal experiences in life. Well, we very much appreciate you coming on because I know, obviously, this is personal for you and obviously a very sensitive topic. I was telling the audience that when we were... as a team discussing like how we want to talk about this case, you were very gracious to talk about your own personal experiences with postpartum. So, uh, and, and I think you shed some very interesting light on it as someone who, you know, Natalie and I obviously in the postpartum phase of,

of the twins right now, but thankfully Natalie's experience and our experience has been different than, you know, what so many moms and families have to deal with when it comes to postpartum. But before we jump into that, uh, I do want to just like, this case has really taking on a life of its own. And it's created so many just conversations that are affecting like families, couples are breaking up. It's really, I mean, it's kind of scary just how I guess the internet not too shockingly will kind of warp what is the actual stories of this case. Our friend, Emily Baker, who actually we asked to come on, but she's like, she doesn't do two things. She doesn't like to talk about ongoing cases. And she obviously doesn't like to talk about cases that involve

children, which is what's going on here. I remember when Emily and I were just started working together, I was just asking her questions about the true crime space and just, you know, what does it like to cover it? You know, pros and cons, things to look out for. And I remember her telling me how, you know, one of the things about true crime that can get real messy and real dark, real fast, is that when cases that are ongoing, like this one, we're watching the court, the trial in real time is that 100% of the time when these cases go on in the true time space is that there's always a group of people that will advocate for the innocence of whoever's on trial, regardless of what the case is.

You know, there's just always these fan theories, and they really take on a life of its own. And sadly, what always happens is that people connected to these families and connected to these cases, they're the ones who start being accused of the crime. And regardless of what happens at the trial, like, no matter what, when it's a true crime and it becomes like popular and it's on the court TV and you have Nancy Grace or whoever it is talking about it, you're always having a large group of people online, making just random accusations, you know, to people who are deeply affected by these horrific acts. And it's just like one of those things I think we just always have to be mindful of. And

clearly that's going out in this case because, you know, you have a lot of people accusing the husband of potentially being guilty of this crime. I think it's important to mention, as far as a trial, like the husband's not on trial. He's not being investigated by the police. And even Lindsay's own defense is not arguing whether she actually committed this act or not. What they are arguing is whether she is capable of being held responsible. Does she go to jail or does she go to a mental health facility? But they're not debating whether she did it or not. But when you ask the average person following this. It's amazing how many different versions and scenarios and theories that exist out there. It is really, it is quite scary. It is. It's very scary. I think it just,

it points to how the internet can just take something and run with it in a thousand different directions. Like you said, they're not arguing whether she did it or not, but there's so many theories. And honestly, even as a consumer, like consuming TikToks and stuff, I'm like, I find myself falling into the trap of like, Oh, wow. Wait, there's actually some. What we have to remember, especially with these, again, these trials that are ongoing and then, you know, we have the ability in some of these cases to watch the trial happen is that it's her legal team. It's her legal team's job to create doubt, to create reasonable doubt, to advocate for her. It's literally, you know, even if a lawyer doesn't believe their client's innocence,

it's literally their job to find that. And to your point, Mary, you have people online and, you know, true-kind detectives and fans, like taking this information and kind of metastasizing it and turning into something, it's absolutely not. I mean, I was talking to a friend who's following this case, and I was like, what do you think about this? And they were convinced the husband did it. And they watched the case. They were like, I've watched the case, you know, and you haven't watched the case. So I know more than you. And they were just absolutely convinced that the husband has done it. So you have one pocket of people who thinks that that she didn't do it at all, that she should be exonerated because apparently the husband or someone else did it. And then you have another group of people

who acknowledged that she did it and yet are, it seems like they're going a bridge too far for advocating for, for Lindsay and supporting her, thinking it's like they're supporting the awareness of, of postpartum. And it's just like, where do we draw the line? I mean, at some point, maybe the system failed, Lindsay. Maybe society failed Lindsay, but we still as a society have to hold people accountable for these evil acts. I mean, the war hero who comes home and murders her his family. And that, I mean, that, I think that happened this year. He might suffer from PTSD. And, and maybe we have an awareness of how we shouldn't leave our heroes behind and maybe we need to do more for our vets. But that doesn't mean that these people shouldn't face accountability for

their heinous acts. Absolutely. And it seems like people are just like, you know, not threading that needle in a way that's kind of scary. You have, anyways, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of crazy. I have a question for the moms. I know there's a difference between postpartum depression and then postpartum psychosis, which is what is going on in the trial. When you're experiencing postpartum depression, are you aware? And I'm sure it's different for everybody, but maybe in your experience, like, are you aware that that's what's happening? Or are you just feeling? like an overwhelming sense of. Yeah. So it's a great question. Okay. Yeah. So in my case, I mean, I can't speak for every woman, obviously.

But in my case, I had my daughter when I was 29 years old. So a fairly young age. And my whole life, all I wanted to do was be a mom. Like that, I carried around a baby doll, played house. You know, that was my goal in life. had a super supportive family and husband, and I had this baby. And right after I had her, I would cry a lot. And my mom said, oh, these are the baby blues. Yeah. So that felt normal, right? Everybody was saying you're going to experience this sadness sometimes, which doesn't make sense because the happiest thing in your life just

happened, right? Like, you have this beautiful, healthy baby. And I think what happened with me, me is it progressed over a period of six months. Oh, wow. And so after a while, you know, I recognize like this is no longer just baby blues. The hormones are out of my system. Something's really wrong. I would talk to friends about this and friends didn't necessarily understand what I was going through because some of them didn't have babies, right? Other ones didn't experience this. Yeah. And I, this was 2008.

So it wasn't like it is now where there's just an influx of information at your fingertips. And so I finally went to the doctor and I said, look, I'm having these intrusive thoughts about dropping my baby and her bleeding and I'm horrified by it. And I'm, you know, squeezing her tight and I can't sleep and I'm checking her pulse. and if she's breathing every night and I can't eat. And I just feel suffocated. And my doctor said, yeah, you have postpartum depression and anxiety, which is, you know, scary to hear as a new mom because I had never been diagnosed with anything like that before

and didn't understand what was wrong with me and why that would happen to me. But one of the most important questions I asked, which is really interesting, like hearing about this case, is how do I know that I'm not going to hurt this baby? You know, like what's the difference between me and the mom that does end up hurting their baby? It does drop them or does do these awful things. And she said the difference is that you understand it's wrong and you don't want to do it. You know, even though you're having these thoughts, you know they're wrong. Yeah. And with psychosis, you actually think if you hurt your baby, if you kill your baby, everything will be better.

And that was a really big moment for me. Fortunately, I hate to say, but like it does make you feel a little bit better in that like, yeah, no, I don't think anything's going to be better, you know. I just need help. Yeah. And I was so fortunate to have access to some of the best medical care and family members and the most supportive husband ever. But, you know, sometimes things, I think other people don't and or like they slip through the cracks. Yeah. You know, it's such like, it's a complicated thing to talk about because it's like, it's obviously not, it's not like an easy thing to like admit those feelings.

You know what I mean? I felt like a complete failure. Yeah. Angela, I'm curious as someone who's obviously experienced this, and I think you kind of discerning the difference between, as hard as it is to talk about that question you asked, I think it's an important one because you're seeing right now, there seems to be too many people not separating what Lindsay did to her children and the acknowledgement that maybe we need more awareness around postpartum depression. You have moms like making montages of these very difficult moments. of being a parent and then trying to relate to Lindsay. And for a lot of people, that's a bridge too far. Right. And it's almost as like a theme that I've seen is, if nothing else, there's just a lot of loneliness.

I mean, there's a lot of loneliness in this world today, but there's just a lot of loneliness with moms who, you know, feel very alone. You know, their husbands are working out of necessity. They don't maybe have the family in town, you know. We just have a different kind of culture where it's just become less of a village. Why do you think there are, there is a list level of people trying to attach. It's like what I don't get is Lindsay shouldn't be a symbol, right? You know what I'm saying?

Like she did an evil thing. And I think we have to be very careful attaching Lindsay is the symbol of postpartum depression because to your point, there are millions of moms out there who suffer from this. And yet they don't do this evil thing, right? And they hopefully sometimes get the help. They work through it. But they don't actually do this evil thing. And yet you have so many moms out there trying to relate to Lindsay in a way that I don't even think that they're at that level that she was.

No, they're not most likely, right? And I think they're trying to state something that we all need to be aware of, which is there is a huge crisis amongst moms. out there right now in motherhood and the pressures that we feel. And I mean, especially now, like I can't even imagine raising kids like you and Natalie are now with the way that the internet is. I mean, I was not aware of all of these Pinterest things that you're supposed to do as a mom. And I felt so much pressure. Now it's like if your kid's lunchbox is in a work of art, an awful parent. And it's, it's, there's so much pressure on us as a society to raise these perfect kids and to be a perfect parent and this and that, that I think these parents are really

latching on to this, not because they're excusing what she did or they're saying like, you know, we all have felt like we, her, because that's an extreme. But that beginning of what she was feeling that that postpartum depression, that loneliness that you said, is such a worldwide problem, mostly in our country, because our culture is not the same as some others like in China, where they have the sitting month, where the mother is supposed to sit for a full month and take care of their baby while their mother comes in and takes care of them. You know, and they're supposed, like, there's these cultures out there. Even in Italian culture, like, you move back in with your family when you get married in Italy.

That's what my cousins did. I thought it was kind of strange because obviously I did not want to move in with my family. In America, we all have kind of like moved away from the village, right? Because we move away from our families. We have access to go across the country. And then you have this baby and you have no village to help. you take care of it and you're feeling the pressures. Not only that, but you're exhausted. And that, you know, makes everything worse when you're tired. And you just feel alone. And so I think

they're trying to attach themselves to something that isn't really what they are experiencing, but they're just grasping at something to raise awareness. I remember after River and I experienced postpartum anxiety with both pregnancies. I experienced it a little bit more with the twins just because it was double the hormone drop. But with River, I remember having those same thoughts, Angela, of like we'd be in the car and I'd be like, oh, my God, I'm going to go through this red light and an 18 wheeler's going to drive by and hit the car on her side. You know, like the playground, like you just have all these intrusive thoughts. And I remember I was talking to Sharna Burgess about these and just. randomly we were at an event together and she was like, how are you doing? And I think I just like,

you know, it all just spilled out of me. But she gave me the best piece of advice that honestly saved me and then saved me with this postpartum as well. And it was to thank the thoughts for coming in because it's making me more observant and it's making me like, you know, be more aware of what's going on and to like when I am going through this red light to make sure that I go a little bit slower to look and see if any cars are coming or to hold River's hand extra tight as she's going up the stairs on the playground because I had the thought of her tripping and falling and hitting her head, you know, just to like thank those thoughts. And I think that like saved me. Yeah. I mean, it's really scary too because I'll never forget when River was born.

And again, like overall, we're very grateful for our overall experience, you know, because you hear all these stories of the challenges families have. But when River was born, you know, Nallie, it was the day she came home for the hospital and it was like pouring ring in L.A. I'll never forget it. Our doctor was like, you know, pulled me aside. She was like, you know, Nally's going to be emotional. And Nallie's mom kind of said the same thing about the baby's baby blues. I left her pillow at the hospital. And then she came home and like we lost the pillow and Nallie just started just bawling and crying and in a way that like was different than I was used to, you know, not that I'm used to seeing Nali cry a lot, but this

was different. And overall, all like everything was fine, but even then there's this like, as her partner was like, I don't know what to do, right? You, you know, like, you just try to support, you'd be okay, but like, you just can tell there's a bit of a disconnect, you know, that Nally was feeling. It just, it didn't feel like the Nally I knew, right? It was a different version of her. And thankfully, it was temporary and thankfully we got through it. This is all to say, even that scenario that, in itself wasn't that heavy of a moment. It wasn't that scary.

But it still was like, oh my God, I wouldn't know what to do. Back to all the fan theories with the husband. Another thing that's just like so uncomfortable to see is the amount of people online. It says, like, listen, if something this horrific happened, how does anyone know how would, I don't, all bets are off if someone were to kill my kids.

You know what I'm saying? And how do you know how you would handle something this horrific happened? I literally couldn't imagine how I would process such a horrifying event. And yet you have all these people online being like, well, I would have done, I would, this is how I think he should handle it. This is how I think he should process this pain. And as a result of them, you know, not seeing, not being able to relate to his experience because who honestly can relate to this, they are making accusations towards this father

who's suffering, who lost his children. And, you know, as if there's a perfect way to respond to such a horrific act. Like maybe hidden dealing with it was to find another partner to help him through it, you know. I think to be completely honest, as I followed this case, like, to me as like, and I'm just a person following this case. So this really means absolutely nothing. But to me, like, it seems like there is enough question within the way this original, like the original day of. of this event was handled, that like there could potentially be a retrial as far as like just like the way the case was handled, right? And so I think like there's information about

that that just seems unclear. And maybe it's the nature of the fact that like the defense is trying to like put like her motivation into into question that's like allowing this. And maybe they're just really good at their jobs in that way. But I do, I do wonder if there's just like more to the story of their relationship than people understand that at the same time does not excuse anything that happened. I guess I don't follow what you're saying, Mary.

It seems like there are some holes in his side of the story, essentially. But these holes are being created by fans on TikTok. It's being insinuated by the defense in order to raise, like, just raise thoughts about where Lindsay would have been in that moment.

So it's not completely generated from online theory, but people are taking it and running with it to kind of like make a narrative. For example, the friend I was talked to about this case, they were telling me about this 911 call, right? And their version of this 911 call was that the husband did not have the appropriate empathetic response and she did. Apparently in the court, like, while this is a case that we all get to watch, when it comes to the 911 call, that is not something that was aired publicly for everyone to listen to, right? Because it was such a sensitive and devastating call that the jurors, the people in the court and the reporters,

and now the reporters who are covering this case is a pretty broad spectrum from like, you're kind of independent journalists to people who work for like accredited, you know, magazines and, you know, news organizations. And I came across one of the reporters who was like, there's a lot of misinformation about this 911 call. I am someone who listened to this 911 call. Let me tell you what was actually on the call. She gave some perspective about, like, her background, how she is someone who, like, she in her previous life,

worked very closely with the AIDS community. And so she was been around a lot of, like, very devastating, like, you know, telling parents that their child had died. And so she had experienced a lot of what it was like to, you know, watch a parent react to their child passing and just, you know, the horrifying reactions that some of these parents had. So she had some perspective.

And she was saying how like the husband's scream was something that she will never forget for the rest of her life. And yet because it's not being aired to the public to consume and all these reporters now get to report on their perspective of the call, you're, you know, that is turning into all these theories that, again, from my friend who is from their perspective is clearly watching this case, their interpretation of this call was the literally, literally opposite from this person who listen to this call, who was reporting this call. And it's this night and day difference. I mean, that's, that's the scariest part to me about the media right now is that

we literally have this woman who is admitting guilt. I mean, she's like, I will live with this pain of killing my children for the rest of my life. That in and of itself is a prison and a horrible. Like, I can't even think about it. And we're still questioning whether or not she did it because we've got TikToks and people's perspectives that have no business giving their perspective. I mean, my friend called me and said, oh, my gosh, can you believe that the husband framed the wife? And I was like, what case are you talking about?

This is not anywhere by the legitimate news. You know, this is not the first case that has taken over kind of like monoculture. Right. What is the difference between, I know the answer is that just people are like anyone has an opinion online now. But like the difference between like you seeing something online about this case specifically versus like back in the 90s talking to your like uncle that has no idea what he's talking about about O.J. Simpson. You know what I mean? Like people have been theorizing on these kinds of cases for forever. I just, I wonder if the difference now is this like, everybody has a claim to authority that just doesn't exist.

Right. And I think we act as if when we see things on TikTok or whatever, that's like that person is saying that as if they're right when they could also just be like making a video and not necessarily thinking about it as much. And I just wonder if that's created such like a big problem in true crime and like how that's affecting cases and people's thoughts on it. We could spend hours talking about why it's gotten to the way it has. But yeah, I think fan theories have taken on its life of its own. You have creators who, again, like, are incentivized to come up with the most fantastical theories because those are the ones that get engaged with the most, right? And then there's just no sense of, like, responsibility.

Right. Yes, that's such a good point. And it's also they're good to watch. I just think it's scary because it's like the propaganda can reach so many more people and create this swarm of, you know, en masses. of people that believe in this false narrative. And that's the scary part. Like when your uncle was talking to you and the villagers and the people in town,

it was just reaching that small group. But now the message is going out to the entire world. Yeah. And then you're creating a huge group of people that are behind something that is not true. Yeah. And that's scary, you know, especially in something like, this. And it takes away from like what what could be the important conversations too because it really does take a village. Like over the weekend we had Natalie's mom here. We had our sister here. Our friend Victoria

was also also here. And everyone was helping and like, you know, we're very involved parents. But like, and it's not even just the help, right? Like, you know, it is very easy for, I watch my wife just like be an all-star mom. And it is so easy to just, you know, I've seen a lot of like moms out there talking about, I feel like trapped in four walls, right? And, and I, you know, not that I can relate to that experience as a mom, because I'm not a mom, but I have watched my wife. She gives her whole body. She's pumping. She's breastfeeding. She's, you know, she's, again, the go-to parent for, like, River. You know, it's just like, again, mom's always like the first person the babies want. And it really can make you feel like you have no other purpose outside of being a mom, right? Oh, absolutely. They were all

like joking this weekend. You know, they were my sisters holding Iris. My mom's holding Dove and, you know, I've got River. And then Dove would start crying and she's trying to console her. She's trying to console her and she won't. And then they're like, oh, she's just got to smell Natalie. Just give her to Natalie. She's got to smell her. And then I would take Dove and then she'd stop crying immediately. And then River would be like, Mom, put Dovee down. Put Dovee down. And then it's like, Iris starts crying. Like she's got a smell Natalie and then I've got both of them. And then Rivers like put them down. So it is,

it's a very all consuming. But like the thing I try to do, I literally was like talking to Victoria. And I was like, hey, I need your help. You know, like take Natalie out, make her feel like a girl.

Like if Natalie wants to like her feel like herself again. Whatever she wants to do. If it's a yoga class, if it's getting coffee, if it's whatever, just have her go feel like a girl. Like just have her go feel like.

A woman. Bitch I'm a woman. A woman, you know. But just have some fun, right? Because, again, I think that's the thing that we can forget about when it comes to the moms out there, that like that they have this job to do. And like, again, you know, Nali is so grateful of being a mom. It is like the focal point of her life. But that doesn't mean she doesn't want to do other things.

And it is, it's, and it can happen so fast, right? You know, you can feel real good one day. And then a couple days later, it's just like, I need my wife to get out and have some fun. And then there's pressure, right? Like, then she feels the pressure. But then the internet is, you know, I am scared to share when I'm not with my kids because the internet is so quick to be like, well, then who's with your kids? What are you doing?

Why do you get to go out? And who's, you know, and it is very pressurized. Yeah, that's interesting. I just remember when I first met Nick and I don't know if you remember this, Nick, but I kept on going, well, if you need anyone to hold your babies at any point, I will come over. And you were probably like, who is this weirdo? I just hired. But I think part of it was because I remember that experience of just being like, can someone

else hold this baby for a minute? Like, can I shower? Can I just grab a glass of wine? And by the way, like, I barely drink, but I just need to feel like a human again. And it's so important to have a partner like you and a mom like Natalie has and a sister. And I think that's what this case, like, if we can take away things. from this case that can better, you know, our society and better, you know, make a better life for moms, is that, like, we need to be aware of the needs of our neighbors and the fellow moms in our community.

And even if they say they don't need help, just drop off breakfast on their porch or just, you know, write them a little note of encouragement or whatever you can do to help lighten their load because. It's a large one. Or just call, right? Because like now in today's, you know, age, like everyone's starting a family at different stages of life, right? It's not the norm where you're like in your early 20s, everyone your age, it becomes a mom, right?

Or a parent. Like, it's happening at different stages. So a lot of times you will become a parent when your friends aren't and they're single, right? And I think there's this kind of like, oh, well, they're busy being parents. You know, they don't have time for me. There's a lot of like, well, you don't call. No one, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I'm saying?

I remember also like when I, the few, you know, the first few weeks of River and in the twins, even just being alone, being home with the kids. I remember I would find any moment I could to FaceTime or to call a girlfriend because it was like, I need to talk to another adult. Like I have to have an adult conversation. I've only been like playing and being silly and talking about snacks and what, you know, it's like I need to have a real conversation with someone. Can I ask the moms in the room a question? Yeah. Okay, so I'm talking to my sister yesterday, right? And we're catching up, and my sister has like, like my niece recently, or I guess in November, she'll be a year old.

But it's the cutest girl in the world. And I just noticed, like, after I was talking to my sister, we were on the phone for like an hour, just like gabbing. And I was like, I'm barely asked about my niece. Should I feel bad? And now I'm hearing you guys when I'm like, am I actually maybe like, do? doing the right thing by just calling and chit-chatting with her. Because I feel bad sometimes, but I also like, it's not that I don't love deeply and, like, respect my sister as, like, a mom and, like, getting to, like, learn about my niece and

watching her grow up and stuff. But, like, I'm still just kind of gab with my big sister. No, that's great. It's great to be seen as yourself. Yeah, because parents will bring up their kids if they want to talk about their kids. Yeah, because it's like, my sister has a kid. I have a niece. My sister's still my sister.

It's like the same thing when she got married. I'm like, that relationship is like, she literally scheduled me an appointment for an OBGYN while I was asking her how she's doing. She's an OBGYN. But like she's, you know what I mean? It's just like, you want to keep those relationships. I think it's great to be seen as yourself because I read something when I was reading about this case about a mom who said, you know, no one sees me anymore. They just see my kids. So it's almost like I'm this invisible person, even to my own parents.

You know, they call and they ask, how's the baby? and, you know, when your friends come over, they want the baby, they want to hang out with the kid, and you kind of feel invisible. So I think that's actually wonderful that you still see your sister as your sister, not just a mom. You know, it's like she is a mom, but she's still who she's always been. I don't know. And a mom. Yeah, like when my sister got here this past weekend, she, you know, we had been like tracking her location, whatever.

We're like, oh my gosh, she's about pulling the driveway. So we all kind of go out and I'm holding a baby. My mom's holding a baby and then Rivers out there with us. And my sister, you know, of course, goes straight to River first. And then she goes to the twins. And then my mom's like, and then I'm like, oh, hey. And she's like, hey. My mom goes, I always forget about the adults.

And I'm like, yep. Like you do. You just get forgotten about. You know, people are talking about this case as if like, okay, well, we need to like make some changes, right? But like, I think we just have to remember that yelling into the void of the internet is not going to invoke change. It just creates this noise. It creates division and miscommunication. But like to your point, Angela, like, who's going to change this? It has to be us, right? It's not going to be our representatives. I don't think we want to require laws to make changes of how we see mothers more. It really is going to take our community. It's going to take your village. It's going to take you, you mentioned your neighbor, whatever it is. But like, it really does take a village, right? And the village is more than just helping with child care. It is just making you. you feel like less alone. Like you still have a life and you still get out there and you have, you do have people help. And when, when you do have help to give those moms permission to go,

enjoy themselves, you know, not just to sit by and watch you hold their kid, but just to get out and have some fun. But it really is going to create us as a society. You know, people are talking about, oh, like this, what this says about society. If it says anything, it means that we need to get off our phones a little bit, we need to stop yelling at each other through the internet and actually like reach out to the moms in our lives and just like check in, see how they're doing. I think what's scary is differentiating between what they're going through and this postpartum psychosis because so many, it's kind of common for women to go through postpartum depression or anxiety like you guys are talking about. It's one in eight women. Postpartum psychosis is not the same.

It's like one in a thousand women. And when people with postpartum depression or anxiety, like you guys are don't get sleep. They have, you know, depression, mood swings. But someone with psychosis has literal psychosis and breakdowns and can harm other people. Right. Like they disconnect from reality. Right. So it's great that it's causing awareness for all postpartum, but because they're so different, I think it is really dangerous to just compare yourself to someone who has murdered their children. Right. Exactly. Exactly. It's just, yeah. Prophing her up as some sort of a symbol or hero. That's just a huge mistake that we are making. Because again, you can recognize this as something that didn't need to have.

happen. And as a society, we can say, what could we have done differently? What can we do better? And at the same time, not give the person who killed their kids, like sympathy for what she did and recognize that this was an evil act. And it didn't need to happen and maybe we can do better. But like propping her up as a symbol, I think is a bridge too far. It's hard to say for me an evil act because yes, it is horrible. horrible, but she was mentally ill and had broken from her own reality. And also considering like the issues with medication and the issues with her treatment, it's like there's so many things that like failed her. The thing is like, I think so like this case to me is like it's so upsetting because you're

watching someone who like was a victim do a horrible thing that you can't come back from. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I just, I'm just a little uncomfortable with the victim label. I mean, it's uncomfortable. I mean, but not, just because someone is a victim doesn't mean that they did something good. Would you describe this, the, the war hero who came back from war? Yeah, I would. I mean, it's the same sort of like that doesn't, someone being a victim in a, in a situation does not, does not negate them doing a heinous act.

As far. Like, it's just two things that exist and are uncomfortable next to each other, unfortunately. I think that's, I hear you. I guess I hear what you're saying. I guess I'm just like, I think I'm just like, I think I'm just. less quick to use the word victim? Because, again, I think that it blurs the lines a little bit too much. I'm not sure that she's a victim.

I think she suffered from a mental illness and disease in the same way that PTSD affects our soldiers. And there are, I mean, my uncle, who I'm so proud of, who unfortunately passed away this year, spent his entire life after almost dying in Vietnam advocating with our, governor in New York and with President Clinton to form these programs for soldiers and veterans that will come home and were severely ill mentally and physically from, you know, what they had seen. And I think that we have to talk about that for our mothers, too. Like, what is out there?

What are the resources? What can we do if we see someone struggling? Yeah. You know, should she have been left alone at any point? Right. You know, I'm not sure that, and I'm not blaming anyone, but. Preemptive strategies to make sure these things don't happen. We take care of our people.

Yeah. And make sure they're okay. The village is for everybody. Yeah. There are people you don't like in the village that you have to like, you know. As a society, we need a line. And I guess what I'm saying is, like, society can't always be the thing we blame. And I think something terrible can happen.

and we can have empathy and we can say maybe it didn't need to happen but sometimes someone goes too far where we still can't like maybe society failed them but they still need to be held accountable and I think sometimes

I think that's why it is uncomfortable because there's so many conversations happening there's the conversation of the sensationalizing it online people you know going so far to defend her or blame the husband or different, like, all these different things that are happening, which is like a completely separate issue from, like,

from what I understand, which I don't know all the details, but also I just have to say, like, one in one thousand is kind of a lot. Yeah, it feels like a lot more than a lot. Like, that's kind of a lot for psychosis, but, you know, to disclose, like I have had a friend who had thoughts like this and was like my family would be better off. And that's like the, and for her, she's like, that's really hard to admit because, I understand like my friends, my family, like that's, it's a jarring conversation. And it's like really hard to admit out loud. But I guess if that's the definition of like believing that your family would be better off.

Yeah. Like then maybe it is a lot more common than we think. But I think in this trial like she's made it or it's become very clear that she was institutionalized at one point. She said multiple times to multiple doctors. They messed up her medication. They went against like, that's scary. Multiple times where they switched medication, like, so quickly that can, like, adjust things like, in your brain that are, like, have nothing to do with even your own chemistry and your brain or biology in your brain. Like, there's just so much happening that it is just like a very uncomfortable thing that

I think she was a victim of like, or she was a, she experienced a failed system, but also did a horrible thing where there's no. Right. There is, and that's why the trial is. Like, no one's condoning what she did, but. were also looking at it as like there was a failed system here or something went drastically wrong because I know for me if you miss a day of your SSRI for two days like the things that can happen to your brain are so frightening.

Yeah. And so you think about this woman who was already experiencing a lack of sleep, you know, depression, anxiety, all of these. things and then just being thrown medicine and none of it working and messing or like also like who knows what was going on like my have like a moderate experience like I've taken like I tried well butrin and I'm on like and I've tried Zoloft and it's like when you when there is a medication like an SSRI that doesn't work for you like I broke out I had like panic attacks and like broke out yeah I can have the adverse well butrin like and then Zoloft great but even if like if I if you run out

And then it's like you experience this hangover of like, oh my God, it all just comes rushing back in. And then to imagine like experiencing postpart. And like I'm just 25 and figuring out my life like experiencing anxiety depression. To imagine being like a mother with three kids experiencing like postpartum psychosis with the added medication stuff. I don't know. It's just so sad. It's really sad. It's definitely sad.

I also think it's important to point out that even for the, you know, well, postpartum psychosis is more rare than postpartum depression and anxiety, but not every mother who experiences postpartum psychosis actually murders their kids, right? Even that's even as much smaller numbers, of course, of course. But yeah, listen, like it's, there's just a lot of scary, sad things that going on in this world, but like, you know, we just need to be careful trying to bring awareness to something that needs awareness and not associating too much sympathy for the people who are actually committing these acts of. Because at the same time, like, we need the awareness around all of this stuff, but like those babies also need justice and like they need someone fighting for them.

Right. And that's like where it gets. It seems, yeah. The line is getting a little lost. Angela, I just want to thank you for being a part of this. Like, you know, and just sharing your perspective because it's, and honestly, it's his stories. It's moms telling their stories and people willing to listen because again, like, you know, I just there's so much parenting discourse out there that is, you know, a lot of it is helpful. a lot of it is not helpful.

I still think parenting is one of the best blessings and most beautiful things out there. And I think we need to be able to speak about how great it is. I think we can recognize the difficulties of parenting without condemning, without condemning children and how difficult they can be. I laugh so hard because of River this weekend. I'm not an easy laugh, but she also just drove me nuts.

You know, she also just like, when your babies are crying in the middle of the night and you're on no sleep, it does feel like someone's like taking a drill bit into your brain. You know, like Natalie and I get very irritated. at each other in the middle of the night. It's hard, you know, but they also bring so much joy into your life. And I just think I'd love to see more of the positivity around parenting and, and, and let's talk about the challenges, but sometimes these cases have a way of taking on a life

of their own. We'll certainly continue to talk about it as the case unfolds and maybe bring on some very qualified experts to help us guys through these conversations. But Angela, again, I just want to thank you for being so vulnerable, sharing your experiences, and thanks for being a part of our team. We love you. Oh, of course. Thank you for having me. All right. Well, that will do it for today's episode. Thank you to our guest, Nat and Live from the Girls. And thank you to our very special guest, Angela R. Booker, for sharing her experiences on what it does like to deal with postpartum.

Let's be kind to each other. Let's be careful about what we post online and just like, you know, support our moms, reach out to your moms, reach out to your people. We need to be less alone as a society. But the only people who are actually going to change that is us. So let's just remember that. We are back tomorrow for another great episode of reality recaps who don't miss that. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.