The Viall Files - E1178 - Forensic Psychologist Dr. Shannon Curry Breaks Down Lindsay Clancy Trial, MAFS

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Dr. Shannon Curry joins us to talk through what the Lindsay Clancy case is actually about, the difference between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, and why so much misinformation has spread online. Plus, we get into Tracy Tutor joining RHOBH, possible new Housewives cities, and the latest Married at First Sight drama.   "This is not a case of whodunnit." Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe   HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/   Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter   To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Zenni: Go to https://zenni.com/podcast and use code PODCAST15 for fifteen percent off your first order, plus free shipping on all US orders over sixty five dollars. SmileSet: Listeners of our show get an additional 35 percent discount when they go to https://smileset.com/viall. With this discount, you can get the smile of your dreams for under 12 hundred bucks! TheRealReal: Get $25 off your first purchase when you go to https://therealreal.com/files   CarGurus: Buy or sell your next car today with CarGurus at https://cargurus.com   To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles    Episode Socials:  @viallfiles  @nickviall  @nataliejoy @currypsychgroup @ciaracrobinson @jsotos1 @justinkaphillips @the_mare_bare @baybaeee

on everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the va files reality recap edition i'm your host nick at some point i'll be joined by my wonderful wife natalie joy she's wearing her baby we're getting anything settled you know like things are hectic so we're running a little late uh we got a full household welcome back sierra how are you hi good how are you you know i'm i'm doing well ish i'm doing great it's all it's all great yeah happy to hear it and happy to be back well it's great well it's great to have you. Jimmy also, welcome back. Thanks for having me. Always happy to be here. Every time I talk to Jimmy, I want to be like, what did you do this weekend? Like, was it fun? This weekend was fun. Where did you travel? Who did you meet? I was in Denver for the Jay Cole

concert. Got to go backstage after. Jay Cole, what is, what are some of the songs? Love yours, uh, middle child. Play it, play it on your phone. I know we can't air it. I'm down. Play on your phone. I think he was. pivotal in mine and Nelly's No, Jay Cole's early in our relationship. Wet dreams? Come on that's a binger. No, that's not who I'm

First thing. First, rest of peace, Uncle Phil. No, we definitely didn't hook up to that. Hey, we got a good thing. Oh, he had me crying. Does he have a real, like, like a love song? Like a sexy song? Oh, yeah, love yours. Jay Cole can turn you up. He can put you in your

feels. He can make you get over, break up. Jay Cole is very versatile. I don't know. Okay. Well, we'll have to ask Natalie if I'm thinking of the right artist. But anyway, welcome to the show. Mary, Mary is also with us. Lots to get into. We have a very special guest very, very excited about. Dr. Shannon Carey, a clinical and forensic psychologist who has been covering this Lindsay Clancy case. And very excited to talk about her. We had a, I thought, a really great conversation with her Booker Angela and just kind of talked about postpartum and some of the struggles of the moms deal with and just the importance of

awareness around postpartum, but I'm really excited to have Dr. Shannon with us because I think there's just a lot of, just a lot of information floating around online about this case and a lot of misinformation. And I think she's going to bring a really objective point of view to this case. And if you guys are interested in objectivity when it comes to the case, I think you come to the right place. And really, I hope he learned a lot from Dr. Shannon. I'm really excited to have her odd. And that is going to be coming up shortly. But before we get to Dr. Shannon, Welcome to Natalie Joy. Oh my God.

Hey, girl. You came just in time. All right. See her. And Iris. Welcome, Iris, everyone. Iris is your first. Hi, Deba.

Your first feature. At the J. Cole concert, breast milk was offered to me. Period. Backstage or... In the suite. Babe. Is Jay Cole, who was part of our relationship early in our hooking up era? Jay Cole is who I was playing their album on the way to our date night.

His album and you were like, can you change? this and I was like oh okay so that's who that was and then he kept skipping the songs what album well it was just like j cole essential and he kept skipping the songs and he was like wait time in place time in place I understand on the way to date night might not be the I just it wasn't yeah who is the who's the artist that we we cautious clay that's cautious clay that's cautious clay that's cautious clay who is driving was it you Natalie I was driving you were driving but you were in control of the music Nick, I don't know if you were technically allowed to take over Oaks in that moment. Nick is never in charge of music.

That's true. That's true. I definitely, that's Natalie's go to. But if he is driving, he is in control of the skip button. Yeah. Well, speaking of music, Taylor Swift, actually, this is what I wanted to talk about. She revealed some, like, coping mechanism, mantras she repeats to herself. Because obviously she's Taylor Swift.

And things can get pretty big when you're, you know, the biggest start in the entire world. So this is what she says to herself in the mirror. Let's hear it. I'm excited to hear this. I've heard it, but it's awesome. You chose this. You chose this every day. You could have opted out of this any day

before it got unmanageably big. And I decided not to because I love it that much. That's just where it begins and where it ends. Everything that comes with this ultimately is worth it as long as I get to still make music, she said. This is her, she says that every day. That's a long, she says that's a long, sorry, I didn't know the whole thing. That's a long mantra.

Yeah. Outside of the, because it's music, you could apply this to a lot of very wonderful, rewarding things that also come with a lot of difficulty and hardship. Parenting could be one of them. I can do this. You chose this every day. I'm telling you to myself. Well, I definitely don't say it as eloquently as Taylor Swift, but like, you know, so much in life, I don't know a single thing in my life that I really value and appreciate that hasn't come with a lot of its, a lot of challenges. Like, you know, I don't find that it exists. Maybe other people feel differently.

Next Gen NYC cast. Yeah. I chose this every day. Wait, do you guys have mantras that you say to yourself? Like, what do you say to yourself in the mirror to, like, hype you up? Mine's really similar, actually. It's the same kind of, like, notion. But my mom always instilled this one in me.

It's life ain't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain. Oh. There's really good. Storm's always going to be there. Just make a party out of it. Hurricane party, that's what we used to do when I grew up. I just look in the mirror and say, lock it up.

Lock it up, lock it up. Lock the fucking, you are that guy. A couple slaps in there? Yeah. Lock it off. You say lock it up, not lock in. You got this. 3.m. in the morning, Nally is upstairs with River.

I'm by myself. I got two twin babies that's feeding time. I walk into the bathroom and turn the lights. Splash some cold water in my face. I'm just going to let's fucking go. Where are they when you're splashing water? I'm a tiger. Yeah.

I have questions. Mine is, mine is, nobody cares. But in a like a positive way. Like it's not that deep. Yeah, it's not that deep. Like, no one cares. You can live your life. River, she's unlocked a new cute era.

So we often like, well, you know, we read her nighttime story. The old routine was read the story and they would be like, again, and I'd be like one more time. And then we'd read it one more time. And then she'd give a book, a big hug and a big kiss. We'd go to bed. Now, I read the first time, or Natalie. and the second time, River reads to us. And her version of reading is, it's a lot,

it's from page to page, it's like, and then, and then you just step out. And she's like, and then? And it's really cute. And she has a book called The Little Brood Truck. Are you familiar with The Little Brutruck? I don't know how old it is.

No, I've never heard of the Little Rood Truck, but I'd love to hear how it's rude. I can't really memorize it, and Little Boot Chuck went, and Beep, beep, beep, beep, bah, uh, I kind of read it like that. Okay. There's a beat.

Yeah. And there's a line where the big dump truck got stuck. And because he wasn't nice, nobody heard or nobody cared is a line in the book. And the only line that River remembers from that whole book is, and nobody cared. And I'm like, period. Like, I love it. The one thing that she took away from that book is like, no one gives a fuck. It's not about you.

And the fact that my potentially my daughter is learning that at two and a half years old, I feel like it's a win. That's really good. Do you know who it is about, though, right now? And what I really, another thing I really want to tell you guys about. What's up? New Beverly Hills housewife, Tracy Tudor. I'm not familiar with Ms. Tudor.

All right. Well, here is what we know about. Is this official? Is this locked in? Is this a blog? This is, it's pretty locked in as far as I'm concerned. Okay. She posted about it and, like, made an official announcement.

So, yeah, so basically, she's already got beef with Doreet. So we're already cooking there. Okay. She's from a million dollar listing, so she's been on reality TV before, but million dollar listening on Paul since 2024. She, this is her statement she made on Instagram. Beverly Hills is home. I've raised my girls here, built my career here, and now apparently I've decided to let you

all in even further into my life. Excited? Very. Nervous? A little. Likely to get into some trouble? Absolutely. So what's left to say, but let's fucking go.

That's a very nick line. But last year, she went on Jeff Lewis and claimed DeReed didn't pay. her glam team's bills and also stalked her on social media. So Doreet is denying this and is basically like clocking her and saying she's, you know, attention seeking or whatever. So she writes it very gossip girl, XOXO. I love it. It's great.

Yeah. Nervous? Little. Scared? For sure. For sure. Excited? Totally.

But let's fucking go. Bravo's so messy. Are you familiar with Ms. Tudor, Sierra? I'm not because I didn't really watch a million dollar listing, but I have seen the clip circulating of Doreet on one. watch what happens live saying like that this girl is just like out to get her essentially. So it's like and the fact that this was years ago when this was brought up on a watch what

happens live episode that I'm like the idea that y'all brought her on this cast just to torment poor Doree. She's also friends with Crystal. Even better. Yeah. And also Doreet thinks everyone's out to get her. So welcome to the club. If Crystal comes back and Crystal gets like a little ally against Doreet, oh my God.

And then also the stuff with Kyle is happening still. That's what I'm saying. Beautiful gorgeous television. Is this the show? where they have like the intros where it's like I'm so and so and I put the fun in function or whatever like

okay my ex used to play like the compilation of their intro and she used to crack me up like the little sound bites I love them my favorite of all time is Maryam Cosmes if you come from me I will send Jesus after you like what? We need to find out someday which one

the producers come up with or which ones are the housewives because I bet it's about 50-50. I would love to you. to know the authorship of each of them. What's crazy is, like, you know, we were talking about the rumored cast last, yesterday, when was that? I don't know. All the days of the same.

The Dets and with the Stars cast? No, the Beverly Hills rumored housewives cast. That makes sense. And Candice Marino was one of them. And she is a dear friend of ours and also a facialist. And so when I texted her and was like, oh my gosh, is this true? She was like, I have no idea how that, like, I popped Zitz for a living. Like, I don't know how my name got in.

the mix. I don't know what's going on. They also used an AI photo of me. Like, I don't know why they just got my Instagram. It's probably one of the housewives submitting her so they can bully her into free facials and then and then get in a fight with her because like she's not being a good friend because she's not giving free facials. That's probably yes. That is a diabolical. I was like, I'm also thinking it's like some blogger that put their like fantasy cast together knowing maybe that Tracy was one of them because Morgan Stewart also went on her Instagram was like, I had no idea what happened yesterday, but I was never in the running. I've never had a conversation. I would never do this. She was, seeing how excited you guys are, maybe I should be a part of it. But like, yeah,

no, she had no idea why her day was in the running. She has nothing to gain and everything to lose. So I feel like that leaves Tracy Tudor and Rosanna Pinsino as like the two, right? Because it was like there's going to be two and these are the four. So I feel like we narrowed it down pretty quickly. I think Rosanna's legit. I think the streets were saying that maybe she's, this isn't the first Didn't Amanda take her spot last season maybe potentially? I heard from a reliable source that it was down between, yeah, those two. And Amanda, I don't know if she won or she's the only one accepted or I don't know if there was an actual offer. But I don't think it's as made up as the Morgan Stewart rumor.

Yeah. I wonder, I mean, sometimes people like just don't get picked for, you know, don't get cast for like really weird. and random reasons. We also have, apparently there's some rumors about the Bravo looking in cities like Nashville and is it Dallas? Chicago.

I don't know about Chicago. I think, well, one, lived in Chicago from the Midwest. I'm rooting for that. We know some people in Nashville. The streets are talking here. The streets are talking in Nashville. What are they saying?

What are the murmurs? Well, we know some of the key players in Nashville. You know, the type of people they might, you know, people might reach out to to say, do you want to be on a reality TV show? Can you spill anything? Trying to connect the dots here. No, I mean, I'm not going to, no, no, no, I mean, I can't, no, I don't know if they're comfortable with that.

If I guess, can you blink twice? I'll tell you when we get done. Okay. I don't think any names that, you know, like, it's, I don't think it's hard to figure out who might be considered. And Nashville is rich in reality TV personalities. So true. Chicago, different, a little different, you know, like, there's not, you know.

I have some people I have in mind. For the better part of a decade, like Nashville was like the East Coast. Like if you weren't going to move to New York, he moved to Nashville. I think it's still like that. For like my generation, I feel like everybody's moving to Nashville. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people are. Anyway, we're about to get to our guest, Dr. Shannon Curry, a clinical and forensic psychologist

to talk about the Lindsay Clancy case. And certainly there's a lot. Everyone's talking about it. There's so many layers to the discourse on this case. but there's also just a lot of misinformation and a lot of intense feelings around all the information that's out there. So we are bringing in Dr. Shannon

to help guide us through this conversation with a little bit more... We want to be as accurate as possible, so we're excited about having her on the show. When we come out of Dr. Shannon, we're going to talk married at first sight and we're also going to talk a little double lives of suburban wives.

And I'm excited to talk to you about why I think the term self-sabotage is wildly overused by both the dumper and the dumpy. And I'm over it. And we need to stop misusing the word. It's, it's, yeah, it's lost its meaning and now it's being abused or misused. I can't wait to say that and then have half the internet lose their mind. Anyways, Dr. Curry, she's up next.

Dr. Curry, welcome the show. Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. Well, we're so grateful to have you. Our dear friend Emily Baker recommended you. I've seen you on the internet, really admire what you're doing. And then we asked Emily to come on. She's like, I'm not really covering this case.

And she had her reasons why. But she reminded me of you. And we reached out and you were very gracious to come here. And I'm so excited to have you because not only do I have so many questions about the Lindsay Clancy case, but obviously as new parents, you know, I mean, you might have to bill us with some of the questions. I can be weird with new parents. I once approached a woman who is carrying a baby in the parking lot. and just ask, how are you doing? And, you know, part of me was thinking like, this is crazy, this is weird, she's going to tell me to F off.

And she was, she just started crying. And she was like, it's hard. And I said, look, I know, I get it. This is the hardest thing you're ever going to go through. And everybody's just blowing smoke up your ass and trying to convince you that this is all just fairy tales and rainbows. And it doesn't mean you didn't want your baby. It doesn't mean you don't love your baby. It just means this is legitimately one of the most.

difficult times of your life the first year. After you've had a child, it's going to be the hardest time of your marriage. The research shows that marriages are never worse than that first year. And then they gradually, you guys are going to gradually get a little bit happier with each other again. It's going to take about 18 years, though, for you to go back to normal. So just, I like to normalize this stuff so that you don't feel like you're alone in it and you don't feel like there's anything wrong. That's great to know, because I feel like, yeah, overall, you know, we definitely do fight more in the first year of our children's lives though that is true thank you in the middle of the night in the middle of now we're doing feedings and where i you know it's there's a

it's you know you're exhausted and look for people who don't have a lot of support i i just can't even imagine you're sleep deprived you're you have this entire role transformation you don't have the normal social support that you would have had before the whole baby thing really was meant to happen when we lived in little village tribes and had people constantly available to hold the baby. And so it's just, it's really tough. Let's start with the case itself because I think that's what the discourse has really taking on a life of its own. You know, I think this case, you know, started obviously in the true crime genre, but now it's become a mainstream conversation. A lot of has to do with the conversations that are even brought up around postpartum. But as far as the case

itself, I feel like there's, you know, a lot of, as always is the case with these, the internet is like a lot of misinformation and a lot of fan theories around true crime. And so I want to try to as much as possible deal with what, what are the actual facts? Anecdotally, I was, you know, I just over the weekend, I mentioned this story on our show yesterday. But I asked a friend. I'm like, oh, you find it. Oh, my God, of course. And then immediately they're like, oh, he did it. I was like, oh, okay. Now, at this point, I became more and more aware Nally has been followed. A lot of the information I received was from Nallie.

I was aware that there was a little bit of discourse around, like, theories around him. They were convinced that he did it. And they had been watching the case. And then gave me a bunch of lists. It was like the body temperate 82 degrees, his reaction to the 911 call and things like that. And again, as someone who watched the case, I was like, I wasn't really pushing back. I was, because I was like, hey, I didn't. And they're like, you need to watch the case.

and this person was like selling their opinion as like an as if they came up with it on their own in an individual informed opinion and then I go online and I'm looking and this person was just parroting like the the talking points of everyone who thinks he did it and it you know and it's all the same talking points right and then I'm looking online and I'm seeing other people being like you know people who actually listen to the 911 call telling a very different story and I'm just curious how are you seeing discourse online and what are the facts of the case? but I'm also just kind of interested in how do we get to a place where so many people are convinced? You know what I'm saying?

Like I wasn't about to argue with my friend because this is a very smart person who I respect their opinion and they were convinced he did it. And I was just a misinformed person who hadn't taken the time that they had taken to learn about the case. And how did we get here? Okay. So there's about a thousand questions in that question. But no, they're amazing questions. I mean, this is the stuff I literally think about at night and don't fall asleep.

So there is a general, when you see an increasing conspiracy theories in general, kind of a collective conspiracy theory tendency, usually there's a lot of public mistrust in institutions. I'm a psychologist. I'm not interested here in going into where I think that mistrust is deriving from currently. I think there are excellent arguments for educational system. I think there are very strong arguments in the psychics. psychological field for social media being a primary source of information these days. And entire generations who are now growing up from birth to adulthood with social media as their

primary source of daily information and interaction, that's their town square. So there is a different, I think, norm around where you get your information, who you listen to, the loud voices that anybody can be a loud voice on social media. I've seen it myself. I've seen people in forensic psychology. And, you know, it's just, it's wild out there. There's no real checks and balances on that platform or on any social media platform. So there's that. And then you have cultural components with mistrust and systems. You can have political influences. So that's one entire issue where you could bring in a specialist on that. What are the facts of the case? Separate, incredible question. So as a forensic psychologist, I have to know a little bit about the law. I have to have a general knowledge and understanding of the law because my work involves answering what we call, it's a term of art within the field, the psycho legal question.

And that is one part or several parts of a statute, an illegal statute where the psychology actually intersects. And we can provide information to the fact finder, which means the judge or the jury, to assist them in helping them make the old. ultimate decision that they have to make about that statute. It is not our job to assert their role and make that decision for them. We are just providing the psychological information that's relevant to that statute. So it's important to know what the statute is, because unlike a normal clinical

evaluation, we're not just bringing everything in. We understand that when we're conducting an evaluation for the courts, these are people's rights on the line. And we're not going to introduce prejudicial information or incriminating information unless it is specifically necessary for that statute or in that jurisdiction. So everything that comes in should be very tailored to the jurisdiction, to the legislation, to the statute. This is not a case of who done it. This is not a case where we're looking at evidence to see who the guilty party is. This is a case of criminal responsibility. So it means that the insanity defense has been raised or an insanity plea has been made where somebody is conceding that they committed the acts, but that they lack the mens rea, the guilty mind, or they lack in Massachusetts, there are two prongs, two components that would make them guilty of a crime. So you can only be charged with a crime if you have the guilty mind.

You're a criminal. If you were not in your right mind or you were unable to control your behavior, and the actual wording of not in your right mind means in Massachusetts, you were not able to appreciate the wrongfulness of your actions. And then you get a second prong. You also get the jury confined either or. Or you were not able to control your behavior because of a mental defect or a mental disorder. then you are deemed not criminally responsible. Now, that doesn't mean you go out into the world. And in some cases, frankly, which is worse, going to prison or for the rest of your life

or going to a mental institution for the rest of your life. The idea is that if you are found not guilty by reason of insanity or in Massachusetts, sorry, I wouldn't be accurate, not criminally responsible by reason of mental disease or defect, you don't just get released. The judge is likely going to remand you to a state mental hospital. And then the goal is treatment. So now it's not about punishment. You're not hospitalized for as long as you would have been incarcerated. It's a separate thing because, again, you're not guilty of that crime. You've been acquitted. But the goal is public safety and treatment of this illness. So even if you are no longer showing any symptoms and you have all your treating providers, on a panel. They do regular reviews of whether somebody is eligible for what we call conditional release. Even if everybody on that treatment team is saying she has been a model patient, she has been leading her mall classes, she helps with this, she worked in the recreational garden, et cetera, et cetera. She's gotten another master's degree. She has shown no symptoms. She's been

compliant with medication. Even so, the court would have to find her to not be a threat to society. of any reasonable risk of danger. And now I've seen cases working in, I used to work in mental hospitals. So on that end, I've done those evaluations within the hospital or testified about somebody I'm treating and still had the court to say, nope, we don't like it. And this, you know, this is a real, this is a real issue. There have been a lot of, there's a lot of case precedents behind this. This is a really interesting actual area of law and civil rights. So that's, facts of the case. There's that. I think one thing that scares me about conspiracy theories around a case like this. And I saw an attorney say this beautifully. He was like, I'm just worried when I'm

arguing a side of a case, whether or not people are following me and whether they think I'm being convincing, whether the evidence I'm preventing them is convincing them more than, in his case, he was saying, than the defense attorney was a prosecutor. And he was like, the last thing I am imagining happening is that you guys are thinking of some third scenario that neither of us are bringing that has no basis in even this this trial or legal phase he's like that scares me you guys scare me i'm going to scare you to death right now so i one of my specialty areas of evaluation it's it's evaluation to criminal responsibility like this case and then another specialty area of mine is evaluations of capital sentencing capital sentencing evaluations i'm usually brought in at the

mitigation phase. What's important about this is the mitigation phase comes after somebody has been found guilty for the offense. So guilt is no longer an issue. I go in assuming and using the appropriate language that this person did it. You guys have all found him guilty. I've got a jury of 12 there. And then the mitigation phase is kind of a beautiful constitutional Supreme Court precedent phase. It's really, death is different. So in capital cases, everything gets to come in to convince even just one jury that this person has less moral culpability than to deserve the harshest penalty that any nation can hand down. So he's or she is never getting out. They are going to be imprisoned for the rest of their life.

They are no threat to society in prison. These are all facts. The only thing is, are you going to sentence him to death or not? Are you going to put him in prison the rest of his life? are you going to sentence him to death? And what I find incredibly terrifying, and I think this parallels what's happening here with this case, is that in surveys of jurors who have already sentenced somebody to death after that mitigation phase, large portions of them never realized that it was a totally separate phase, that he wouldn't just be released. They did not appreciate the difference

in the legal phase. And that's a fundamental disconnect from, I think, what's happening in the courtroom and a fundamental lack of understanding about the law. And the attorneys can try to explain those things to them. But if that's already happening, right, before. And I'm talking about trials that are not being televised. I'm talking about a sequestered jury. People who are living in that courtroom with us for months sometimes in these capital cases. And then you think about a case like this, and you've got all the social media and the conspiracy theories going on, too. And it is completely contradicting the law and what's already been conceded. I mean, that just scares me

to death. Cognitive bias is so powerful. People will not even, they cannot physically see. There's been studies on what people will physically see if they believe something different. And they will not physically see, for example, a gorilla beating its chest on camera if they thought that there was no gorilla in that. I mean, it's really wild. Cognitive bias shapes what we see, what we hear, what we perceive and those beliefs are so fixed and so strong that I have a lot of fear right now about our justice system if these sort of conspiracy theories and this hubris, this lack of humility, lack of appreciation for the knowledge and specialization and skill that people who have dedicated decades of their lives studying and specializing in can bring and offer.

There's just not an interest in learning. It seems like that said, that said, here's the positive. I feel. I have clients who I adore, who, and friends too, who have said to me, he did it. It's the first thing they'll say. Now, the beauty of being me is that they know I'm a forensic psychologist so I can just be like, no, he didn't. And then explain why. And they're going to, you know, these are people I love. I have a relationship with them. And I can come with receipts. But it's still exhausting. And I have a doctorate and postdoctoral training in this. And I'm still exhausted and like, and they might bring something up or the body temperature. I'm like, shoot, that's out of my scope. I better check it up. And then I look it up and I'm like, oh, this is nonsense. You're completely conflating something or misunderstanding something. But I still, they've got these, I mean, they are studying misinformation. No, it's really it is terrifying. I'm curious, like, thinking about the challenges with our legal system, obviously, at which there are many, but speaking about what you're talking about misinformation,

do you feel like the way that these court cases in the true kind space like again have commercialized court cases right and it almost seems like with the way that we've become so like therapy speak and we're you know therapy's great huge part of our you know my personal development our relationship it's great but like again people have taken these terms and like have kind of anointed themselves experts you know and that we all do it right to a certain extent are people able to weaponize these ideas you know um and and come up with defenses for their bad behavior in a way that will be very sellable to the the public and when in and the it almost seems like the public is becoming the actual jurors in a way that like who's going to be accountable for

anything in the future because there's it seems like there's always a way to explain nowadays bad behavior by like taking advantage to your point of these important terms but should be diagnosed by experts and yet, you know, as a society, we're just, we're all, you know, I had a woman, I don't think we released the episode and is an ethnic episode and she was just asking me my opinion about something. She's like, I'm autistic and I'm like, really? She's like, yeah, my mom told me yesterday. You know, it's like, have you been diagnosed? You know, but like she took it, it was just like, oh, okay, you know, someone on, and it was like, whoa, you know, and her willingness to believe someone in her community who just diagnosed her. It

I just don't feel like we would have done that five years ago. And here we are. It's happening really quickly, isn't it? Yeah. So I think, I think Nick, you and I are around the same age, so we're like equally jaded right now. But yeah, I do feel like I have noticed a rapid shift, even just in the last few years in people becoming armchair experts in certain. And there is so much information out there. And in some ways, it's fantastic because people are learning, When they are getting information from experts, that's so encouraging. One thing, though, that I tell a lot of my clients is I have a really hard time posting because I'm very busy. And so I think there's a reality where those of us who are actually very, very busy working and having those roles in the field, it is, I mean, my stuff is so low quality. I'm always forgetting to put a mic on. Sometimes I just put a Zoom recording on and throw it up there. I mean, it's bad. But that's the best I can do. And I still have so many more followers than other experts in my field. And so on the one hand, I feel this obligation to kind of go out there and

like bang on the drum of truth. But on the other hand, we're really busy. And so one thing I'll say to my patients is, yes, I know this doctor looks really awesome online. But I know so many excellent physicians with this specialty that I can refer you to who aren't online because they are way too busy to do this. And also, they can barely write a hand chart, you know, like they're not putting together their little curated videos. And they're not paying attention to like the algorithm or their or their hook in their first three seconds or how much you can monetize a viral video in a ways that the, you know, we've lost that objectivity. As far as the case itself, I want to ask you some specific questions that I've seen online, but again, I haven't verified. I don't know how

accurate they were, but one of the, it seems like one of the doctors, I think it was recently in the past two days, he was talking about when he evaluated Lindsay that, and correct me if I'm getting anything wrong here, but when he evaluated her, he thought it was, as he described, very unique and a little suspect, a suspect, that the voices, you know, that she had heard, she had only heard when she committed the act and those 18 minutes that took her commit the act and by her own admission has not heard those voices since. I even said this to my wife, Natalie, who was like, well, that's not true because also I feel like people are confusing her acknowledging to her husband, hey, I've had some dark thoughts about harming myself or harming my kids versus I've

heard actual voices telling me to harm my child. And this psychologist says that when I hear someone saying that the voices who told me to commit the act are only isolated to the act itself, I find that to be suspicious. Am I accurately A giving you this information? What am I missing? That was actually a great synopsis. Oh, thank you. But how can we understand what he is saying in layman's terms?

What I can say is that, yes, generally, you've described two separate symptoms. Command hallucinations, hallucinations, let me define that first, are any sort of sensory experience that you are perceiving as real as day that is not real. So that could be most commonly hearing voices. It could be seeing things that aren't there, seeing people that aren't there, phantoms, demons that aren't there. You feeling as though something is crawling on your skin, that bugs are inside of your skin. But again, it's the sensation. The delusion would be the certainty that there are bugs inside of your skin or that some bit of things have been implanted in you.

So the hallucination is a sensory sensation. And then we have in a psychotic episode, you can have just hallucination, you can have just illusions, you can have both. Let me define delusions too. Delusions are a strong, fixed belief that is not real, and it is not changeable. No matter what contradictory evidence you present to the person, they cannot be convinced that what they believe is not true, no matter how irrational it is. Now, you may have bizarre delusions like aliens. implanted something in my brain and I'm getting messages from them, or you may have non-bizarre delusions such as I invented a microchip, let's say you're in tech, and the government's after my idea.

That would be more of a paranoid theme. Depending on the content of your hallucinations and of your delusional beliefs, that can really shape your behavior as you were experiencing them. Now, postpartum psychosis, if somebody is experiencing postpartum psychosis, this, This is different than the psychotic behavior you might see with somebody who has schizophrenia and is experiencing an active psychotic state with florid psychosis. Those are a lot of big words that means that may be if you've seen a homeless person shouting out loud and you feel a little bit scared, it's very clear that they're not connected to

reality. That would be a state of florid psychosis. And what they're doing when they're shouting is they're responding to what we call internal stimuli, which is usually either they're seeing something that isn't there or hearing voices that aren't there and they're reacting to it. Now, with postpartum psychosis, there are periods of total lucidity during the day, even if somebody has an underlying delusional belief the whole time, let's say, let's say somebody has a delusional belief that there is some impending doom coming for them and their children, they can still, outside of that delusional belief,

have completely normal reasoning. So, they're just a little bit of that. So they're just a little bit of they can still want to call CVS, check on a prescription, text the husband and say something, they're relieved that the kid's test was normal. And then also, there could be different times of day where the symptoms kind of kick in, and they're more in a state of delirium, which is something that's kind of a textbook part of that postpartum psychosis, real delirious, kind of fatigued out of its state. And they may get more paranoid and more intense in their delusional, thinking it might become more ruminative, and they can experience hallucinations, especially if it's a paranoid-type theme, command hallucination that has to do with that paranoid. Now is your only chance

you must do it. What Heelburn's speaking to is the unusualness of somebody experiencing a command hallucination for just this one finite focal period of time and then never again, never before, and never again. And what Nick, I hear you also talking about is differentiating that very clear as day auditory hallucination, the command hallucination, you must do this now. It's your last chance. Versusive thoughts where you can have really powerful intrusive thoughts. Sometimes I have intrusive thoughts, especially if I've been working on a report for a while. I'll hear myself say like serendipitously in my head, like while I'm brushing my teeth. That's just weirdness, brainworms. tired, you're overwork. But also, let's say you are dealing with anxiety after having a baby.

Intrusive thoughts, negative thoughts are really common for everybody postpartum, not just people who even have the baby blues, even though that's super common as well. Everybody postpartum, including dads, will get intrusive thoughts. That's different. That's different. And your intrusive thoughts can be like, what if I kill the baby right now? Should I kill the baby? I want to kill the baby. No, I don't. And the reality is, do you actually want to? Is it a distressing ego-dustonic thought, right? So you can even think the words like, I want to kill the baby.

And if it is ego-dustonic, like it brings you horror and disgust, you don't want to kill the baby. Relax. Your brain's just ruining everything wonderful for you in that moment. But we all do this to an extent, right? Our brains are weird. And we do think of awful things sometimes and then think we're a pervert. No, our brains just do something. stuff. So that's something different. A lot of people playing this clip are suggesting his testimony

is suggesting some premeditation on her part, which is that, oh, if she only experienced this in the 18 minutes, kind of sounds like bullshit. And maybe she came up with it. Is that accurate? Or is that what he's trying to say? What is this testimony trying to say? And how should people be interpreting it. Psychology is not always aligned with the law. The law wants a bright line, a premeditation means she could appreciate, or if she could appreciate, you know, this, there's a bright line. She either could appreciate it or she couldn't.

She could control her behavior or she couldn't. We don't measure things in black and white like that in psychology. We are constantly recognizing a myriad of influences on behavior in every single moment of thoughts, of external environmental cues, of... command hallucinations or not, like our mood, how we're feeling in that moment, whether the kid just had a tantrum, whether we're sleep deprived, whether we have a preexisting diagnosis or undiagnosis, but preexisting bipolar disorder, whatever, there is a lot going on there. And then to say that somebody was like fully able to appreciate their behavior or not, that's a legal concept. So, I mean, there are sometimes where you can go there. You can be like, this person didn't even know his name. This person, you know, this person couldn't even say, coherent sentence and we have it on camera for three days and at the moment of the arrest. That's sometimes you can get closer to that bright line, but most of the time in forensic work, you can't. And your job is to educate and let that fact finder make the tough call.

As I'm sure you know, his testimony was interrupted and right now they're on break. So who knows what will get continued with his testimony. But is it possible for someone to be experiencing a postpartum psychosis and still know right from wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And it just depends. I feel like a lot of people hear that word psychosis and immediately go completely absolved from any in all activity. Right. And this is what, you know, a psychologist might personally feel like, yeah, they're not themselves. And right, if they're well, can we apply the standard to them? Would she have done this if she was well, right? Or if she was even, even if I just want to throw out a let's say she didn't have postpartum psychosis.

Okay. I'm not saying either way. But even if it was a psychologist, if she were so suicidal that a woman who had loved her children and lived for them and then thought this was a reasonable out, even if she were sleep deprived and made this call, is somebody truly thinking with all of their wits about them is that the decision she would have made if she had been rested and well. Who knows? Now, the law, again, looks at things with a bright line. But even if she has psychosis or anybody has postpartum psychosis, their reasoning is only impaired as it gets restricted to that delusion or it's constrained to that delusion. And then also if they have postpartum psychosis and they're delirious and generally kind of paranoid and sleep deprived, of course that's going to affect their reasoning. But the main deficit in their reasoning is going to be because the direct influence of the delusions and the hallucinations.

So any voices if they were there. have a question from our booker that we had on who had discussed this. When you're in that kind of state, like how fast does the delusion, like, on average, usually kick in? Like, is it a quick, like, thing that happens? It's abrupt. So this is one of the things that really differentiates postpartum psychosis from major depressive disorder with peripartum onset, which is actually the diagnosis that we typically call postpartum depression. Okay. So postpartum depression, gradual onset usually starts anytime during pregnancy, although the DSM says it ends in four weeks. It can go on. Clinically, we generally understand that it can go on for up to a year about. And that's what the research

supports as well. Postpartum psychosis is different. It comes on extremely abruptly, usually about two to three days postpartum. And you're in it. You're in it. Now, again, there can be periods of lucidity, but you are, that delusion is full tilt. But it's not gradual, it just like hits. It hits. That's terrifying for the people around that person.

Yeah. And there may be concealment. So if you are paranoid and, you know, let's say that you have this paranoia, that you can't trust anybody, that you have this. special mission that you have to carry it out. You know that the mission is against the law and so people try to stop you, but you know it's the only thing that could save you and your children. And again, I am not saying that that's what happened in this case. I am just giving a scenario, okay? You might choose to conceal your beliefs because you can even reason that people will

try to stop you, but you know in your heart of hearts because the delusions are so powerful that you have to carry out this mission or your children will be damned or whatever the horrible fear is. It's a terrifying place to be. That's a possibility. Oh, and so much there. I want to shift to intrusive thoughts because yesterday when we had Angela and we were talking about intrusive thoughts and I honestly was getting a little confused and maybe it's a large umbrella and they all are inclusive but I wonder if also there's a difference. And so when Angela and my wife And what I'm also seeing a lot of women talking about intrusive thoughts online, they're describing what I'm understanding is,

which also to your point, I as a father have had, when you're like, you're holding your baby or you're playing with your kid and like this horrible, like something bad could happen. Like something could fall, a branch could fall on my kid.

And I have this like vision of like something falling and killing my child. And it's just like, oh my God, like what? that's yeah and a lot of the intrusive thoughts i'm being hearing described by my wife or angela is in that vein where it's like thinking that something bad could happen and you're constant in this state of anxiety about like oh my god i don't know you know it's crippling it can be crippling because you're just so afraid of something bad happening to this child and then there also seems to be

and i feel like that's also being like connected to the intrusive thoughts and maybe again it's one large umbrella of I want to harm my child or that, you know, your baby's crying, you know, and boy, you know, it's just like, it's, you know, I've never, I've never gone that far, but you're just like, you know, it's like it's like a, it's like a drill bit to your head. These are important things to say out loud because they are really common. And some of when we pretend that that is not happening and that people are not driven to that level of exhaustion, that's when we run a risk because that's even more isolating, right? So I hear you, correct me if I'm wrong.

So the question I'm hearing is, is there a difference between the actual negative thoughts and the intrusive worry thoughts? Are those one and the same? I don't think so. What you've described is a normative reaction to frustration, sleep deprivation, not having a life, listening to a high-pitch screaming cry that is actually physiologically activating because the baby needs help and your entire nervous system is in fight or flight mode trying to save the baby's life, but you are spent, okay?

Those are no more normal thoughts. That's why it's so important that we have support when we are bringing children in this world because it's hard and it's going to push you to the brink. Okay, that's a normal thought to have. Also, good thing about saying it out loud is that that's really the antidote. We need to say this stuff out loud. It gives it less power. The other thing are true intrusive thoughts.

The intrusive thoughts are more of like the gross worry thoughts that are so, you're like, why did I even just think that? I don't want to imagine this in my head. And sometimes those can even get weirder. But again, the key is, is it ego dystonic? Is it something that gives me no pleasure whatsoever to think about? That's ego dystonic. It just does not fit what you actually want.

And then now actually the differentiation becomes what's a normal weird mom or dad thought from a new baby. Like, you guys remember in sex and this? who's at my age where Miranda's just dying. I think she's going to go to the Jersey Shore or something with Carrie. And Steve comes over to get Brady or to babysit Brady and he's like, I don't know. I can't do this. I can't do this. And she's like, Steve, we're all afraid we're going to kill the baby. That's, I mean, that's what I think of when I think of the normative experience parents have. Now, if it is getting to the point where it is significantly impairing your functioning, and those thoughts are actually taking time up during the day, and if you're starting to have

to carry out rituals that do nothing but give you a sense of some sort of superstitious sense of if I do this, then that won't happen. Then we might be getting into some obsessive compulsive disorder territory, where instead of it being about like compulsive hand washing or stuff, we're starting to do some other compulsions that are tied to trying to reduce the intrusive anxiety caused by these thoughts. And there is, I mean, if you're experiencing OCD, you kind of can't mistake it for just a little intrusive thought you have now and again. It is incessant and it is exhausting. I've had clients who are up all night wanting to go to bed, exhausted, but they have to keep doing the ritual because they didn't get it quite right on this side or whatever it might be.

So I don't want to instill fear in all of America and get them thinking they all have OCD. I want to qualify that this is something if you, if it is intruding on your daily functioning, if it is taking up a significant amount of time and it is causing you serious distress, not just temporary disturbance because you had an ego-dustonic thought, then we might need to make a call to your mental health provider. Question for myself, who is currently postpartum, I had a pretty rough for me first couple weeks. Mm-hmm. Normal.

And now I feel like I'm pretty good. Is it could come back in? So about 50 to 80 percent of new mothers will actually experience baby blues. This is considered a normative, a normative experience to the precipitous drop. in hormones that happens about 48 hours post-delivery. That's usually like right when it starts to peak. And then it usually ends in about two weeks. Do you feel like that was around the time it resolved for you? Absolutely. Okay. And during that time, here's what kind of characterizes it. Tearfulness, feelings of overwhelm, but you're also still able to enjoy moments with the baby, right? So it's

not constant loss of interest. You're not feeling like you're not connecting to the baby at all. It's just that at times, totally overwhelmed, tearful, not feeling like yourself, having a lot of mom guilt or stress. And then it just kind of tapers off and gets better around that two-week mark. And then the good news is if you're in that sort of criteria window, you shouldn't have any expectation of it coming back. Question for the partners and what best practice is to support your partner or postpartum. Thankfully, overall, you know, despite some baby blues, you know, we're really grateful that we haven't had to experience some of this stuff, you know, obviously Natalie grateful as her partner grateful. But I'll never forget the first, you know, day we came home with River and there was,

there was some crying. And, you know, her doctor pulled me aside. Her mom pulled me aside. We're like, you know, just heads up, you know, this could happen. And it happened. And again, overall, totally fine got through it. But even that little moment was scary. You know, it's kind of like, you, for a moment, your partner, you're just like, I don't know. I don't think anything I say or do is going to have an effect. And I don't know what, and I feel like it's all going to be wrong. And then obviously for the partners who, you know, the women who are experiencing postpartum depression and real intrusive thoughts, I'm just, you know, because there's so much discourse around Patrick about like a lot of people having opinions at how he's supposed to move

and what he should have done and what is normalized. And I also can imagine living with someone who's experiencing this is crazy. It sounds like you can almost like, because you're describing highs and knows, good days and bad days. How can you discern the difference between like, are you supposed to not trust your partner to the mom? You know, like there's a little moment where, you know, she seems a little disconnected because she's sad. Are you supposed to not trust your partner and the mother of your children around your baby? Like how do you balance that out? And it seems like it would be very scary and very confusing. And I guess what are some best practices for supportive partners? I mean, Nick, you're going to have to rein me in here because you just triggered like three

different answers I want to give. So you're, I'm going to be going like 20 minutes. Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to indulge myself, give myself my favorite answer. My first, okay, let me just get into it. So you were saying, how do we know whether or not to leave your wife with the kids because she seems normal? Right. And you brought in Patrick. Let me just start there. So hindsight bias is alive and well in this case in some of the collective blame I've seen toward the family in general.

it would have been completely irrational for anybody to anticipate that Lindsay Clancy was going to kill her children. One in a thousand mothers has postpartum psychosis. And out of that one and a thousand, it's about a four percent rate of only those, of only those who don't seek treatment. And I'm sorry that I don't have that percentage right now who would ever harm their children. Okay, so math is not my strong suit unless I've got charts in front of me. So if anybody here is able to do that calculation of what 4% of some smaller percentage of the one out of a thousand is, that's the likelihood. You would be a pretty paranoid person, not a good parent paranoid. I mean, a really paranoid, kind of a jerk to imagine that your partner who you have known and loved and who loves her children and is labor and deletions.

nurse and loves kids is going to off the kids. I think that could have been seen, you know, if we rewind history, and let's imagine this never happened, and you hear of some husband who brought CPS in and made sure like she couldn't come close. You think also she wasn't going to let herself be around her kids and she's screaming and distressed and the kids are screaming and crying. Like, would that have been a reasonable step for him to take? No, I think by all accounts, we had a person who was lucid a lot of the time and a loving parent and they were all in very close communication with the family, the extended family, and there were decisions that were continually made and reassessed about what's best, what's that kind of support do you need right now?

Do we all think it's best support was offered, then discussed and declined? It's the hindsight bias where the unthinkable, the unthinkable has happened and suddenly it's like, I'm never going in the ocean again because there are sharks, right? This is just, it's so rare. Now, what can husbands do to support their wives? Number one, do not assume that the blues, one of my biggest fears is that this case is being viewed in such extremes, these black and white, right? So either you were wrong to every letter around the kids or she wasn't supported enough. Here's what I think is important.

If somebody is showing signs of postpartum psychosis, that's an emergency. It's not a get her away from the kids. It's a get her help immediately. my partner needs help and that is defined by being out of touch with reality. Obviously, as I said earlier, there can be some concealment of the delusions, but if somebody is telling you that they're hearing voices or that they're even having intrusive thoughts that are getting to that point of more than just mom worry, and if she's not herself, and again, it has not subsided at all, she needs help. She needs help. And then that's a whole other. That's the

The system and the help is a whole other thing. I don't even know if I can address it. It's just too depressing. Now, husbands. The number one issue I see with new parents is that the husbands do not realize how important they are and how necessary they are for the baby. We have ages of this idea that the mother knows best and that there's this maternal magic and there is maternal magic.

But also, fathers are so important. And babies respond so incredibly to their father's voice and face. And it's really cool when you see the research on this. Like if I've, you know, since undergrad, I've been watching these videos in my courses with the dad looking at the baby and the baby cooing. And if you wait 20 seconds, that's about how long it takes the baby to register the information and mimic the dad's face. So it's just a beautiful thing. Most dads feel out of place. When River was born.

Yeah. They brought River over to, they check her heartbeat, you know, and all the things they do. I quickly went over and, like, grabbed her finger and, like, kind of was talking to her. And she went from crying to immediate calm. It was like a really cool moment. I don't know if it was a coincidence or, but it felt. No. It felt like it wasn't.

I'm so glad you had that. Yeah. I'm so glad you had that. And it was so early, right? Do you feel like that changed your approach with River through the rest of raising this little infant? I wouldn't say it changed. I mean, like, I had a great role model in my father. I have 10 brothers and sisters.

So, you know, I was raised by. So you've been raising babies. Yeah, I was raised around kids and I was raised by parents who like, you know, they had no choice but to be a team. Mm-hmm. And so I had a great role model on my father. And so, like, being a father is something I've always really enjoyed. And, and, but that it didn't hurt, you know, it, like, it was a, you know,

it made you appreciate those moments because, yeah, like, parenting is so hard and stressful and, like, it changes your life. And, you know, it's just like. Going to the grocery store is vacation for, you know. Yeah. We'll be like, I'll be like, I'll go. You know, I'll go fill up the car with gas. Like that's, that's a break, you know.

But in between the challenges, like, you know, there are those moments you share with your child and especially as a father now that we have twins. The connecting that I'm having with River has been amplified, you know, and it's just, it's awesome, right? And then she really, yeah, she really connects with you. You know, it's, it's been awesome. So it's finding those wins in between the, in the challenges. But yeah, I think what really helped there is like, you know, like when Natalie found out she was

pregnant, I could see an immediate connection between her and her baby where I was like, the best analogy I have is when I was announced as the bachelor. And like, this is this crazy moment. And everyone's like, for a moment, everyone's like, oh, my God, congrats. And then you don't start filming for two months. And then, like, bizarrely, you're just, you're, you know, nothing's really changed. But, like, you know they're going to do this thing. And it's going to change your life.

But, like, right now, it's like, whatever. And they're also coming online for, like, the first couple weeks. My friend's just had a baby. It's the closest thing I've ever, like, I am in this. And I have been there. The whole pregnancy was really excited. But then I came to the house as soon as she arrives and I was like, oh, so we just, she's just going to sleep.

You know, it was so anti-examines. climatic, but then they really come online and it's really special. And even though it sounds like Natalie, you had the immediate bonding moment, if that's true, I want to also normalize to anybody listening that it's okay if you don't instantly feel that. These are okay things for us to talk about. It comes. It usually comes. Now, if you have that prolonged sense of detachment and not being able to bond, there might be, you know, depressive episode with peripartum on separate thing. But there are so many normative experiences that just aren't what we expect. And I think that's why we need to broaden what we expect. So we don't unnecessarily beat ourselves up. And realize that dads, you guys have such an

important role in raising that kiddo. Talk about what little things you can be doing like right off the bat in terms of warming the bottle, feeding with the bottle, doing this nap time. So you can feel effective at it. The typical scenario that happens is dad thinks, okay, I got to be hands off. I can't handle this. I'm going to go make all the money so that we are stable for this family. Mom feels resentful to be left alone with the baby and exhausted. But then dad comes home, mom's resentful and he feels even more hands off because he just doesn't want to F anything up. And it becomes this vicious cycle.

So then he just works harder to do his duty. It's not that anybody's wrong here. It's just that we need to understand these tendencies more and have some conversations that are proactive and make sure dad gets involved early on and knows what to do, not just be more involved, but let's discuss specific steps that you feel like you do well and want to take over and get in there. Yeah. Like own part of the whatever the responsibilities of child care to like to not always go to

mom and be like, like. Exactly. How do you do it out? You know? Don't put the onus on her to tell you. Yeah. Like read me the instructions. Like, yeah, just owning the process.

Yeah. Yeah. For the single mothers out there, is there any sort of practices or things that they can do to just, like, feel better in this all alone? Yeah. Crickets. It's hard out there for a single mom. I mean, as you're saying that, my brain was just downloading every scenario and what are their resources? And do they have a community?

Do they have a social support group? Our society, depending on what state you're in, America is a very individualized culture and country. We don't have a lot of collective supports in place for people. And child rearing is one of those things that is about as ancient as it gets. That's when we need community. And so my silence is because it reflects that we have a real dearth of resources for mothers. For mothers in general, for anybody really needing mental health services who cannot afford therapy out-of-pocket. Our insurance companies are not reimbursing mental health services adequately.

The providers who are contracting with Medicare are accepting really bottom of the barrel rates. And then so they're churning patients and then they don't have time to do the necessary best practices, collaborating care, sharing records, etc. It's a mess. And this is going to be expensive. We need to put money into it to change the system to get child care, to get supportive community to the new little lives that are coming up and going to be our future. Speaking of the kind of aspects of mental health access, I know a lot of stuff in this like case specifically within Lindsay Clancy was the different types of medication she was on and the switch and what that like can do to you. So I was just wondering, I mean, honestly, as someone who's like on like SSRIs and like, well, occasionally, you know, just because of health care reasons, like, you know, sometimes like you switch. You have to take breaks. You find different things. You get different providers. Like what's kind of like the ways that people can just make sure that they're staying like okay during those like falloffs and stuff like that? That's a really great question. And it's complicated. Before I respond to it, I do want to give a couple of caveats here because the Clancy case is very complex. complicated around this issue. And I don't know the full record. So I don't want to presume that

any effects were specifically just from medication changes. When you're a psychologist, you're teasing apart so many different factors. Was this a shift in her symptoms as that time that got misattributed to medication? And the medication shift happened around that time because we were trying to respond to symptoms. And then it's very common for patients who have higher rates, levels of anxiety. especially if they're experiencing paranoia, or have limited insight into their mental illness to misattribute their own symptoms to medications or even to believe that or over appraise certain side effects. And it's not about discounting the patient.

It's about there are certain mental illnesses where this is actually a hallmark. This is a symptom. And agnosia, so the lack of awareness of the mental illness itself is hallmark of schizophrenia. And it's why you see a lot of medication resistance. there's so many, that's just one piece that I would be considering if I were looking at these records, and I haven't looked at the records. It could also be that somebody has too many different providers and those providers aren't collaborating. That's certainly part of it.

Or that the person continues to seek care for multiple different providers against providers's recommendations. And then you also have the fault of the providers for not checking on that and seeing which prescriptions are filled. I don't know. I haven't seen the record. That alone could be an entire case review. I know very little bit about this space. All I know is, and maybe I'm wrong, it just seems like SSRs, it sounds like they've been very helpful for millions of people.

It also seems like a lot can go wrong fast, and it also feels like there's a lot of loopholes and possibilities that you just outlaid of how people, whether unintentionally, can put themselves in very dangerous situations because these, regardless of how helpful they are, are very powerful drugs and literally change our mental wiring. So is that accurate? Is this like a, is this a, a topic that hasn't been discussed enough? And is it affecting our culture and society in more ways than we realize? Or am I getting into the weeds? Your questions are so good. But I'm like, let me send you every report I've written this year. So I mean, so you were saying powerful drugs. So some of them are what, you know, how are we going to quantify powerful? So again, I, I, I am

Going off her memory from just some testimony I've seen, I've not reviewed the full case file. Do not come for me if I say the wrong medication. But my understanding from what I recall at the top of my head was that she was prescribed different types of medications, different classes. There were some antipsychotics. Sarah Quill, for instance, is an antipsychotic medication. These have a sedating effect. And obviously from the name antipsychotic, the purpose of those is to treat those symptoms like the delusional thinking, the agitation, the hallucinations at present. And Syracwell also can really help sleep because of that sedating quality.

But then you have your standard SSRIs. These are serotonin selective re-uptake inhibitors. These are for depression. But most SSRIs are extremely safe. They are commonly prescribed and people have excellent responses to them. And they can be really helpful for people who have depression, which is common. About 50% of the population is going to experience a full clinical major depressive episode at some point. their life. Yeah, and some SSRIs are even considered safe with breastfeeding. So there are some,

you know, it's not that quantifying powerful, but one thing I will say, here's one thing that I will say that has been a topic of discussion in the case, and I think one that has a real clinical foundation. Postpartum psychosis is generally conceptualized right now in the research as a bipolar disorder manifestation. Women with bipolar disorder are most vulnerable for a relapse or an episode after delivering, after giving birth. So postpartum psychosis is generally, it's believed to be actually a mood episode associated with bipolar disorder. Now, if somebody presents as depressed initially where the primary symptoms they are describing

are consistent with depression, low mood, suicidal ideation, and they are prescribed an antidepressant or a serotonin selective re-uptake inhibitor, And SSRI, it can trigger a manic episode for somebody with bipolar disorder. And so if you have a patient who is suddenly responding with increased agitation to the extent that they are feeling restless, like they're going to jump out of their skin a little bit, then somnia is a big piece you're looking for. That is an indication that you were going to stop that SSRI and go with something else that's mood stabilizing. And it's also a good diagnostic indicator of potential bipolar disorder if it wasn't previously diagnosed. I also want to just say here, as I realize I'm going on and on about meds, that as a psychologist, I cannot legally prescribe in the state of California. Anything I'm saying here is based on general psychological knowledge.

I do hold a postdoctoral master of science and clinical psychopharmacology. So I am speaking about some of this from an educational standpoint from that degree, but I am not a prescribrile. so I highly recommend that anybody who is listening to this and actually thinking of applying anything to themselves, do not until you speak with your prescribing provider. Kind of getting into this case and how people are digesting it. I don't know if this is a question for Dr. Curry or if this is this like a human question for Shannon. On one end, again, this horrible thing happened where these children lost their lives and a lot of people want accountability and on the flip side, there's, you know, this necessary.

awareness of what we're, you know, spent a lot of time talking about. And again, so grateful for the information you're providing us around just an awareness of postpartum. And while this tragedy happened, it's like, what can we learn from this? And how, you know, you talk about hindsight blindness. How can we avoid that maybe in the future? And it seems like there's, on one end, a lot of people who want to have this kind of empathy for all the suffering, you know, moms out there. And then other people, couples are breaking up because, like, you know, you have, you know, someone's like, I stand with Lindsay. And then other people will be like, how can you stand with this person who murdered their child?

And as, you know, from a society standpoint, from, I guess from a doctor's point of view, how can we find common ground here for people to, you know, feel like there's, you know, assuming we acknowledge that the husband and do that. And we, you know, if you think that, then, you know, we're not here to change your mind. But for the people who recognize that this happened, how can people find common ground? because I you know it's just like the world has gotten scarier online because it just seems like things that as a society we could rally behind and recognize that this was wrong and what can we do about it like that's becoming harder and harder as the collective for us to everything's come you know so

politicized and things like that but I'm curious as maybe this is a doctor question for dr. curry but like yeah like it just it just seems as a father with young daughters I am worried about the future and and and and the discourse around these topics that I thought in the past there was kind of common ground and now there seems to be no common ground. I think it's really important that before we cast judgment and anything, we're exposed to so much happening in media and there's this dehumanization that automatically occurs when we're viewing somebody through a screen and we see them as almost less than human. Now, we may not tell ourselves we see them that way.

It's certainly not intentional. But there's something that even when we get in our car, our blood pressure spikes, our pupils dilate, we're willing to flick somebody off. And then if we are standing next to that person in a supermarket, a little old lady who's pushing her cart slowly, we're not walking up next to her and giving her the bird. Like, it's a different thing. So the analogy of being in your car and giving the little old lady the bird, hopefully before you realize it was a little old lady.

But that analogy, that's what's happening when we're viewing a trial and people's lives on TV like that. And I think a really good practice is to put yourselves in the shoes. Well, just imagine looking that person in the eye, sitting down with them. And if that's hard for you, I can tell you that I have sat in rooms with these types of people. I have interviewed family members. I have interviewed perpetrators. I have interviewed defendants.

I have interviewed claimants. Everybody's suffering. All of us are suffering. We're all suffering right now. everybody in this room is suffering. I think the one thing that really connects us is when we realize we're all suffering. You see this when there's a mass tragedy and people fan together and you feel that love, that humanity.

When we start to dehumanize, whether it's because we get too accustomed to looking at people through a distant lens on social media and giving our opinions about their lives and their crimes or whatnot, I think it hurts us. It fills us with reactivity and anger and it separates us from that really good feeling that we have when we look someone in the eye or that really good feeling we have even in times of crisis or tragedy when people come together. We're humans and we are incredibly social beings. So we need that connection. I understand the compelling kind of urge to indulge in that reactivity and blame and that activated feeling on social media. It really is fascinating how

addictive it feels with the brain. I've even noticed it recently. I'll post and then my whole identity that week is social media. It's like I am late to stuff just like, it's really powerful, but I don't feel good when I'm checking it every day. Do you think the whole notion of like everybody being miserable plays a component in the discourse just like it feels good to weigh in on somebody else's life to make me feel better about my own or just forget about my own? Yeah, I mean, I generally, I generally do find when when I'm working with couples, if I have a partner that is really mean, Like no matter how far long we've been working together, no matter how many skills we've gone over, no matter in the empathy is there, the rapport is good. And I just can't get that partner to stop being mean. Sometimes I'll just be like right after they throw a zinger at their partner, I'm like, where did you learn to talk this way to yourself? Like, you must really be mean to yourself. And they'll collapse, right? I generally find that the people that are the meanest, the most judgy are usually talking themselves that way. They may not be aware of it. though, there's usually a lack of insight.

So it's not like you're necessarily going to turn things around on social media for them when a therapist is going to have years ahead to get them to go there. But yeah, imagine looking people in the eye or just look them in the eye more often and get off social media. That's well said, but it's so true. And I'm sure, Jimmy, you can relate to this feeling. And I don't, you know, working in the kind of Internet space, I mean, you know, I'm grateful for this space because I've made a whole business around it.

But yeah, I think if, I don't know how to say this. but it's like, you know, if you go on a reality TV show and you post something and you have your, everyone remembers their first, like big, like, oh my God, like 50,000 people like this. A million people saw it. It's like this, it's a moment, right?

How do I get the next one to 60,000? There's that. Well, yeah, there's that. And it feels like this crazy moment you can't even comprehend. But it's, it is also equally empty. There's nothing there, right? Because it's, there's this false sense of, you know,

dangerous. Yeah. I used to work for Salesforce in this previous life. I sold software. And this Salesforce and Software company, I remember the CEO, Mark Benioff talked about a connected world. You know, all social media, it's all about connectivity. Let's all connect, you know, connect with the person in France. And ironically, it just seems like all really has created this huge disconnect because instead of connecting with our village and connecting with our community and connecting with the people at the grocery store and looking people in the eye, it just really feels like we we feel like we're connecting you know it's like why are you know it's like moms for example have all this there's all this mom content you know everyone's posting about it but

why do we all subsequently still feel alone you know and i think it's because there's this false sense of what social media brings us when we can like have that dopamine hit of views impressions likes comments and and still put their phone down and we only feel alone and if anything we feel like again, that agitated of like, how do you get that hit again? What does this mean? It's a drug. Yeah. And then, you know, we will and then we'll so quickly ignore all that positive information because that one negative comment comes and ruins it all. And I will say I'm at least fortunate enough to have experienced that. You've been gone to therapy as a result of it and tried to come on the other side to try to diminish my emotional response to being online. But I just, a few people

get to have such a high and a low where they don't realize this impact because it doesn't matter if you have a million followers or 50 friends online. It's the same hit, you know, because it's all just, it's all perspective. Anyway, I'm just kind of rambling here. Well said. Well said. I think that goes back to the community thing about takes a village to raise a child, like having a actual community outside of your social media, like where to actually derive validation and like work through like your loved ones. And love, literally. Companionship. Yeah. Well, yeah, because we're, Or, you know, here, you know, with this case, everyone's just online talking about it, arguing about it.

It is in one way connecting the world. But the solution or the remedy is, again, just like, instead of arguing about the case with your friend or neighbor, it's just like finding that common ground. And, you know, if you know a mother or, you know, reaching out, checking in, you know. And doing that two weeks after the case is over. Because my fear and what I think history shows us is that this is going to be absolutely forgotten in two weeks. I posted about Lindsay Clancy about a year ago. And it was like, who's, you know, it just wasn't relevant. It wasn't on TV.

And nobody was talking about maternal mental health, except for some small groups and communities that actually do that work because of the case. But they've been doing that work forever. And now it is the topic du jour as if it just arrived as an issue. And my fear is, and my prediction is, it will disappear just as quickly. So the sustained attention that we actually need to create the kinds of changes in the system that this has brought some awareness to will vanish. And instead we're just sort of spewing vitriol all over each other. Can I ask a question that's like kind of big picture?

Like, because I know like post-pandemic, like there was a lot of distrust in like the system as far as like, you know, science. Yeah. And clearly it's affecting the justice system too. Is there a way to like get the pendulum to swing back? Or is it just like because of social media because of the distrust with all the systems? I don't know. I don't know. I, for that kind of a thing,

there are experts that dedicate their entire life to talking about these types of societal shifts. Yeah. And that's outside my scope. I think they were cooked like. Yeah, trust me, I feel it. Well, my big conspiracy theory, and I don't even think it's a conspiracy

is the entities driving discourse online. And it's not just coming from us or our neighbors or the influencers, but it's, it's a business. I just think, again, to your point, Dr. Greer, it's not, there's no policing around it. And it's so easy to create bots and comments. And unfortunately, people have some dark motives in this world. Dr. Curry, I just, again, want to thank you. This has been such a fascinating conversation, insightful.

I learned a lot. I hope everyone listening to as well. This was fun. I'm also just grateful that we found you. I hope you come back. I loved it. This was so much fun. Where can people find you, follow you, enjoy all the information you're putting out there and

continue to learn from you. At Curry Psych is my handle of social media. And then you can go to my website, Puriysicology.com. I wish you could stick around because I want to talk about how, for my audience, when Dr. Curry leaves, I'm so tired of the way people misuse words in terms. And the, I'm a self-saboture. I'm over it. And I'm going to talk about it after Dr. Currie leaves.

She probably should stay around because I'm sure we can learn a lot. I might hang out. Might sound, might be the salve to my soul. Well, we'll talk about marriage at first sight and, and also talk about some double lives. So stick around.

Thank you again, Dr. Curry. Thanks so much. All right. Bye-bye. Thanks, guys. She was amazing. What an incredible guest. Wow.

I hope she comes back for more. She also just has a great podcast voice. Shout out, Dr. Curry. I'm glad we found her because she obviously brings a lot of expertise and information. It was just great to have someone is, experience as Dr. Curry. So shout out Dr. Curry. I really appreciate your time. Tailing off on the Clancy case, the only thing I found fascinating, and I'll be honest, I'm very grateful for it because his team recently relates to statement, basically saying

they're fighting back. And because I think he's getting tired of obviously the online discourse accusing him of being complicit in this, in this terrible tragedy. I am glad he's doing it. And partly because, I think, again, as Dr. Curry was talking about, the internet's just like the wild west. It basically, the issue to state. been like, you know, whether you're a celebrity or a micro influencer, because there's a lot of people out there are just like creating, they're not just coming up with opinions, they're making accusations about him. And again, because the internet's written in ink, they're putting it out there. And potentially, like, you have lawyers out there, like literally going, okay, this is liable,

hire me because we can make a lot of easy money here. I don't think he's probably reaching out to those online attorneys, but I think his team is like, hey, we have some cases here. And honestly, I'm glad. And if his team is looking for people, I got some ideas. But for the rage baiters out there, you know, the rate, the people out there online making a business out of coming up with like bullshit headlines and in theories and essentially rage bait, right? On unchecked rumors that, you know, for the most time when it happens with you, it's just like, you know, it's like, oh, you could sue. But it's like, is it, you know, the whole process. You know, it's costly and things like that. So you just get most of the time, you deal with it, right?

It's just like it's not worth it. But when you're being accused by the internet of murdering your children, that might compel you to actually fight back. And I honestly hope that he does go after some people of note. I honestly hope that this becomes a larger case in terms of how people can be liable for making up false rumors and accusations online that can ultimately ruin people's lives. And I am for one glad that he is choosing to fight back. Yeah, it's almost like

how anything that's got AI on it nowadays has to be labeled as like AI content like there could be a way to be like misinformation. Yeah. Just like I don't know how you ran all. Yeah, I don't know how you police it and yeah, how the social media companies can go about it and there's all, you know,

the lack of accountability is. Yeah. Yeah. But if you're going to say some shit online and you're going to put it out there and you're going to monetize it and you're going to make money and you're going to make a business out of it,

usually it's just not worth the energy and effort but like, you know, someday you're going to say, See you in court. Can I be devil's advocate on this for a second? You can try. Just I'm locked and loaded. Let's say that misinformation on the internet is the purpose of getting clicks, right?

Like, let's say a social media, let's say like your social media company. Yeah, your social media company responds with, I don't care. It's profitable for our business model to get, I don't care what information it is. That's not my job. It's like the user's job to differentiate. Let's say for devil's advocate purposes, that's the argument. That's an argument? I mean, I guess.

Yeah, but like I guess the lawyer would say, great. Well, if you say something that you're liable, it might cost you. And then like, yeah, business can weigh the cost versus, you know, the money they've already made versus like what they might have to pay in legal fees. I mean, I agree with you. And sadly, I think as a society, we have to now be discerning. You can't just go and believe anything online.

You actually have to like. check your sources in spaces, even when it comes to the news, you have to check your sources. But obviously people, you know, people think they're checking their sources. Well, you know, as Dr. Curry mentioned, just are so like zeroed in on their opinion and their biases and they're already convinced of what they see and what they think and feel. It's like it doesn't, you know, like checking your sources is verifying your priors. I guess I just, the argument I'm posing is what do you do in the situation where that goes? Let's say this, all of this happens and there are conversations and there are court cases about disinformation online

what happens when you go to let's say like TikTok or whatever and they're like we don't care i don't understand what you're saying like in the in the vein of like we're not going to like do anything like the app itself the yeah like the social media companies themselves i mean listen that's a larger like engagement over that's a larger conversation about like how, like, I mean, we can get in the weeds about how much our government should be involved and the responsibility of these companies. Beside all of that, I am just simply saying is that right now, there is, there are no rules. And as users of these products, like, we have to decide for herself how we're going to move. And we all make mistakes. And sometimes we can

say things that like maybe aren't accurate or whatever, but there are people out there making, you know, having, you know, creators, small businesses making, you know, making money off of deliberately rage baiting people. And maybe at this point, they believe. leave their own bullshit. But they are deliberately putting out information in rage bait to go viral, to make money, not thinking about the consequences of things they're saying. And they're just like, you know, hey, it's just like, it's a valid question. Other people are saying it. But like as these people grow followings, as they grow an audience, as they have more and more of these videos go viral, they are having true influence on the discourse that is happening in these public spaces.

and they may end up saying something about someone who's actually willing to fight back and defend the things being said about them. And this case being as high profile as it is might be that very case where some people actually might be held accountable for the bullshit they put out there deliberately online. But it's a larger, you know, as far as a social media companies, that's a conversation for a later day. All right, we got to talk about marriage at first night before we wrap things up. And I already tease this. but like the whole like self-sabotage thing, I'm, I'm over it as a term.

It is valid. I obviously people do it. People experience it. I just, yeah, welcome back Natalie. I'm over it. I'm over the, I'm a self-saboture. The conversation with Mecca and Bell, when they're in the pool and obviously the topic about him talking about how he, he said she wasn't pretty enough.

I thought that conversation was so fascinating to begin with because I appreciate how he handled it. Maybe I'm projecting, but I saw myself in Mecca. He clearly seems to be a man, a young man, and maybe has a lot to learn, but he says some things out of pocket. He says some rude things sometimes. And when she calls him out, he first is like, I didn't say that, but quickly, like, acknowledges that maybe I did. And then finally acknowledges that, you know, and then you see the embarrassment on his face of like, you know, and I recognize it like the, I did it again. I said, I'm stupid shit. I didn't realize what I was saying. Maybe I was trying to be little snarky, little snappy, a little funny, whatever.

And he's recognizing this and she's calling him out. And she's like, maybe he just needs to grow up, maybe he needs to be mature, all of the above is possible. And he's sitting across from the producer. And the producer's like, well, do you think maybe it's just you self-sabotage? And he's like, you know what? Yeah. Yeah, that sounds much better.

And I just feel like the term self-sabotage, of all the self-owns, of all the terms we're throwing out about relationships and things like that and the things that happen in relationship, I feel like the term self-sabotage. I feel like the term self-sabotage is like, it's a little too chic. And both for the person who's allegedly self-sabotaging and for the person who is on the receiving of the self-sabotaging, because finally there's a, you know what, it isn't me, you know, and what I saw is a, you know, and the self-sabotage label is so vague that there's nothing really to do, you know, there's not necessarily, there's no like,

well, let's dig deeper. What is causing the self-sabotaging? It's like a deflection of responsibility. Well, in Mecca's case, I think, quite frankly, it's just like, as someone who maybe recognizes himself in a younger Mecca, is that like maybe he just like says some shit. He needs to learn his surroundings. He needs to maybe learn some manner. You need to maybe humble himself, you know, all of the above. Maybe there's some personality flaws that he has that have shown up in relationships.

And now, instead of addressing this flaw that she, it seemed like she was kind of getting the bottom of and he was willing to recognize it. And then you have a producer being like, well, maybe you're self-satisfying. sabotaging. And he's like, yeah, yeah, you know what? I'm not seeing rude things. I'm not being offensive. I'm just self-sabotaging. And it's just like, it's such a bullshit that people are now, there's throwing out there is like this convenient label to label themselves or when you don't want to deal that maybe they're leaving you and they don't like you anymore because you're the rude one and they're self-sabotaging. He's definitely not self-sabotaging because then that next conversation

with him with all the guys talking about like his type and and he's like do you think she could get their physical do you think she could get to that physique him saying he likes thicker girls and he literally looks like at the camera and he's like not here so he's like aware that he doesn't want to have this conversation on camera because he knows he's going to look like shit because he's his preference is wild and then we have cam that was crazy they're like so he's like it's basically like you You know, when your mom says, do I look fat in this dress and you say, no, I'm sorry. If I'm his mom, I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah.

Like, so I did look fat all those times. I just never, never, never in my life. Well, I understand the need to be like, yeah, you do look bad. You know what I mean when someone asks you? Like, in general. I've said it to my homies. I mean, if it's really true and they like got something on their face, If there's something they can fix.

Like gang, you need a haircut. Like, I've always felt if someone's fixable, if they have an eyelash, if their tag sticking out, if their necklace is messed up. Like that kind of stuff, you're like, hey, let me fix that for you. If it's a fixable thing. But if it's just like you look ugly in that, what is that supposed to accomplish? Your teeth are gross. Yo, yeah. I think you could get to that physique.

Girl! Shut the hell up. I think you could get to a sense of self, but I'm not saying that. You also don't say it after someone's like, oh, do you like my tattoo? I just got it. Like, I love it. It's on you permanently for the rest of your life. So I love it.

I'm obsessed with this best thing I've ever seen. Yeah. Not like, so what were you thinking when you got that? Yeah. Yeah. Time in place. But like,

you know, a lot of, a lot of people out there have to learn those life skills. I mean, I'm one of, you know, it's just, I'm still learning,

you know, they're, you know, it's just like, fuck, you know, I'm sure, Jimmy, you have said some shit that your partner,

well, a girlfriend or a friend was like, what? And like, you know, and they, kind of like, Because you said it, like, they never let that shit go.

And nor should they, because it sticks with you. And that's not you self-sabotaging. Like, maybe you're just a little bit of a dick. And maybe you have to learn how to not be a dick. You know? And I think every young man, there's a little bit of like, especially when it comes to their partners of learning, you know, to your point, because like speaking your boy is very different.

Exactly. Exactly. There's like certain, like, douchebag tendencies. Question to that. Why? What? Why is speaking to your boy is so different? I feel you can just be like brutally honest with your boys.

Mm-hmm. Sometimes. I think, yeah. I think men in relationships are different. I think women, you know, like women, when women give each other shit, you know, and I think it comes from a different place and less judgment and a more relatability. Yeah, I definitely feel like I can say to like my closest friends like, bitch, don't wear that shirt. Yeah. Or just like even in the girls, the Hulu show, like when Iris and and what was it, Olivia, like, they were like arguing and they were getting into it the way they were trying to call each other out.

like the way two dudes would go about that, it was just so, like the way they communicate is so different. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good point. I could not get over. This was like,

like episode 16 or something. The whole like Devin and Caitlin thing, where Caitlin was like trying to get him to make a move. I've turned, I've turned a new leaf on them. Yeah, I don't like Caitlin. I think she's a mean.

Okay. My thing on that is like I get his frustration, but also like was Devin, Devin just like couldn't close. and then he was making that her problem. I don't think so. You don't think so? I was like,

Caitlin has been very particular about how she... But she doesn't like him also. She doesn't like him? She does, but she doesn't. And that's the thing where I'm like a normal... Like, in any type of relationship with mutual attraction, it doesn't have to be spoken about in such a way. Even look at Nikki and Sean,

where I didn't think that we'd be seeing him coming home from a business trip and her being like, oh, kisses at the door. Yeah. But I'm like, you grow into that chemistry. Like, you don't have to be like, hey, I touched your knee and patted your shoulder. You didn't know that was the sign to come. And if that used- Like, you should have been feeling that inside.

Like, that's not giving romantic interest. That's giving, like, well, I did the bare minimum. Why didn't you pick up on that? I guess. I don't like the way she invalidated the way Devin felt about, like, her doing some little cute shit with Mecca and how that made him feel. And she kind of just started deflecting. And then she turned it on him. I ain't like that.

And that's what led them to, like, break it up. And she started crying. I feel like she was crying because she realized that, like. She doesn't like him. She don't like him. Or like, maybe a good thing might have actually gone away because she's like, being like he does give me everything I want in a partner. And maybe that's part of her trauma too, that she can't appreciate what somebody else is bringing to the table until they're gone.

I just don't buy Devin's whole thing of like, you need to let me talk. He do too much. I mean, I said it when we made the video. I think there is some, you know, like we, I was watching yesterday when Tori and Felipe were arguing. And I, you know, listen, I think she just doesn't like him. I think she has a lot of valid reasons why she's out into him and he demonstrates a lot of red flags. but I can appreciate from his standpoint where it probably at this point feels

like he can't win with her, right? And anyways, there was a scene where they were fighting and I was tending to, you know, the kids or whatever and it was on the background. So I wasn't really like hearing the discourse of the fight, but I just saw Felipe being agitated

and Felipe looks like a pretty big guy especially compared to her and just his like, his presence was large, right? And he's agitated and he's kind of yelling, and I'm not really hearing the context. But so from my interpretation was like he was the bad guy for sure because here is this large, very angry man talking to,

and she's crying. You know, she's just crying. And I think when we watch these shows, sometimes we see that. And I think sometimes in these cases where these, I think it becomes difficult for men to express their emotion. And rightfully so, because of the optics. but like it is hard for them to get frustrated and agitated on camera in a situation where there are feelings.

I think Felipe just doesn't know how to have a conversation. I'm not talking about what he talked about. I'm just recognizing that I was just seeing this guy just being agitated. And maybe he was also that he's totally wrong. But I just saw an asshole because I saw her crying and I saw this larger man just getting very animated. And he just, it looked like he was the bad guy. In that moment, was he not kind of the bad guy for not being able to like recognize that?

I feel like, like a lot of the times, like, if I'm in an argument with a man, when he starts getting like very, very heated and like looming and physical, I'm like, you need to fucking watch yourself because like you should know what this looks like. So maybe stop being that emotional about your argument and just like have a conversation. Yeah, but you know. He was very much giving like weak-ass stuff. bitch in that moment. He was giving like, well, yeah, it's Felipe. I mean, in general, not Felipe. Like, just tell me what you don't tell me what you want me to do. It was very crybaby. It was very like, like, doesn't know how to have a conversation. Yeah. Outside of that, I don't necessarily agree with his point of view. But I can empathize why he doesn't understand why, why, you know,

because he think these are just like his worldviews that are probably just really immature. And she's just tired of a dating a child. Yeah. I mean, this is a guy who went, fully like zero to 100 on his decision if he wanted to stay married to her. I mean, she was like, no, no, no, no. And then all of a sudden. She was like, well, now you can go back

to your single life. And he was like, okay. And got up out of the bed and was like, stay later. Like, there was no, I don't want the single life. He like, sulked in the kitchen too. And then, yeah, he came down all step. Like, what? Dust shoulders off. Yeah.

Do we think Sean and Nikki are going to make it? No, no shot. They dig into this repeated cycle of like, we're going to argue. Oh, then we get over our argument. Maybe we actually can. Let bag off be bygons and move forward. And then again, they can't answer another argument. Yeah, but that could just be good storytelling and editing, you know.

No. It could be. I guess you're right. The Seattle 10, New York 7 conversation, I was just kind of like, I don't know, shitty thing to say, but I'm like, not that, I don't think it was that deep. And then to see the conversation about it. And he was like, no, I said that to you because you jostled my tummy fat and made me. And that's why this was warranted.

Yeah. And it was just like, no, no, no. These two people cannot. Yeah, no. It's going to keep butt in his. 100%. Guys don't like each other. She gets under his skin. He gets under her skin.

You're not sexually attracted to him. He is making that your problem. 100%. And it's just like, no. My hot take with Sean and Nikki is just like, Sean literally felt like from the moment he met Nikki that Nikki wasn't that into him. And then since then has been like making that Nikki's problem. And every single time he, like, says something.

It's just a way to, like, bring her down to, like, the level he thinks that she thinks he's on. And then it's just an insecurity thing. And then also at the same time, you have, like, the way he communicates with her stresses me the hell out. Because one second, he's like, yes, Diva. Oh, my God. Like, let's do that, which that's not you. And then you have, like, the insecure part that's popping out. And it's like, that's not completely either you either because that's your insecurity leaving.

And then you have the therapy speech. which is a different thing that he communicates to her like as a robot not a person and I'm like I just want him to be able to be himself around her and not monitoring himself She's saying that she's changed how she is Yeah for him to be nicer to her where I'm just like again so these are not two people meeting authentically as they are and accepting each other Yeah Two people changing drastic things about themselves to be palatable to another person who doesn't like you anyways They're putting each other like into a box to in order to like maintain this sort of couple thing and I I just don't vibe that they would want, that they would want to do that outside of a situation

where they had to get married at first. Maybe it depends on what they're looking for, right? I think, again, who knows, right? But, like, we have to acknowledge that these people, like, were intrude. They were strangers in a marriage. And intense situations often bring out our biggest weaknesses because it's, like, it's fight or flight, right? It's, we're more reactive than we are thoughtful in these situations.

And this is, like, a highly intense situation. But also, maybe depends on what they're looking for in a marriage. Like, Nikki and Sean both seem to be incredibly like polished, put together. They have high opinions of themselves and expectations of the people they date. I think you can say the same about both of them. How they show up in that space is obviously the nuance of this relationship. But as two people who expect a lot from their partners, it would not shock me that in the early stages of a relationship, they're bumping heads about how they show up.

And I think sometimes when we pick our partners, right, like, I think a lot of people out there. I want someone who makes me laugh and yada, yada. There's a lot of people out there who have married the man who makes them laugh who's a lazy piece of shit and not the best co-parent or partner, you know. But they're funny. Everyone loves them. They're very kind. You know, they're generous. But like sometimes they're, they're not the best partners when you're in it in a marriage. And sometimes with people like Sean, I think Sean has some personality traits that are not very appealing to a lot of people. I don't think you can turn a lot of people off. But he does seem like a guy who holds himself

accountable and is willing to show up in relationships. And I wonder if Nikki and Sean can work through some of their, you know, both of their kind of rougher edges when it comes to their personalities. But at the end of the day, they both appreciate the fact that they can expect a lot from their other person. And that person who expects a lot of themselves and recognizes that they, if they're going to expect a lot from their partner, they have to also show up, that they can't find common ground because while they, and they disacknowled in a relationship, they're both going to get on each other's nerves from time to time because they both have annoying qualities. Marriage is imperfect and relationships are imperfect and compatibility is imperfect and sometimes you just have to,

what do you prioritize the most in a relationship? Because again, like I think a lot of people have married the funny, funny guy and that didn't work out. I just don't see the compatibility anywhere, though. Outside of maybe like having good careers. Yeah, like there's no affection. They don't make each other laugh for real. They get along well when they're keying about the other couples. I don't think they're performing when they show up and kiss each other at this day. I think they're actively trying to find that common ground. I think they're trying, but it's not like a spark. The show is going to obviously highlight the drama.

We know we're getting 4% of this relationship, you know. Right, but I also think you have two people that like don't want to lose. And like I feel like there's a if we keep trying, they're going to go till the end no matter what. We're seeing couples dropping left and right because they're realizing this isn't going to work. Yeah. I'm like, I think these two people are very, you know, headstrong. I think that they want to believe that it could work. But I think when it comes down to it,

I think they're just so vastly different in their communication, the things that they want. And I'm just like, I just don't see somebody getting there without calling that settling. The only hope I hope for them is that like they've already gone through so much together that like, at least from what we've seen, that like calling it quits and then starting with somebody new,

just like the thought of that sucks. Because I feel like inevitably these two, no matter who their partner is, there is going to be some budding heads because they do expect a certain thing from their partner. Yeah, and I'm just saying big picture wise, I would, you know, I think it's easy to say the wrong thing,

show up in a way that is received are you being rude or dismissive and maybe you don't even intend it, and then learn how your partner receives information, adjust, humble yourself, learn how to communicate. But like the things that you value in a relation, in terms of like every day deciding to show up,

in a relationship, every day being like, this is something I got to work on, you know, because it's fragile. And that just takes consistent energy and effort. And I think there's a lot of people who are like very charming in early stages of dating who lack that drive to show up in a relationship. And if there's one thing that Sean and Nikki, I think, have, is a willingness to do that.

Now, a lot of people like then still get it wrong. I'm just saying like there, there's something there that I think is underappreciated when it comes to making a lifelong relationship and a marriage work? My question is that obviously, like, we talk about relationships a lot, and specifically with a show like married at first sight, obviously they're already married.

So they already just have to make it work. That's the premise of the show, right? But I think it's like when we talk about relationships and kind of like serious committed relationships, I'm saying this as someone who hasn't been in one. And so I think about it a lot. But to me, it's like, yeah, that's great. that I'm meeting someone else who also has the same intentionality as me and who has the same

like things that they want and want to work on and like drive to like for lack of a better term like win and have a successful relationship that means absolutely nothing to me if I don't like if I'm not like feeling you enjoy dinner enjoying dinner wanting to hang out with you like to me it's like if I don't have like if I'm not yearning for you like what the fuck is the point like if I'm not like oh my God like I wish this person who's shared like I wish I tell you about this like i wish i could just hang out and like do something on a random day with you like why would you try to make a relationship work with someone you don't want to do that with is well because what you're describing is like often like the spark that people refer to which is

often very fleeting and and and sometimes that spark that yearning for someone it can simply just come from a shared experience like going on reality tv uh you know you know being part of the same church, you know, whatever, you know, thinking each other are hot, whatever, you know, thinking you can't get this person and they give you a little bit of hope. And sometimes because like, you know, outside of the show, you know, there are arranged marriages. And that is something that can be developed. You know, we debate and discuss whether can you grow to be physically attracted to someone. Maybe you can. Maybe you can. But you can certainly grow an emotional connection. You can find ways that you connect with people on intellectual levels, emotional levels,

shared experiences and bonding, and that will make you yearn for someone. That will make you more connected. And when you have, when that grows and then you lose that, I'm just saying like that, what you described is something that if one thing I've learned in relationships is someone who's, you know, has not had a lot and finally feels like, you know, I've got a pretty decent one. Is that, you know, those things matter and those things are things you grow. I totally get that.

And I don't mean to equate like, honestly, like the feeling of having a lot. crush on someone with like what like a mature relationship and love would look like. I think those are two different things. I guess my question is just like I think both of the things are important in a relationship. And I wonder if it's more important sometimes to like focus on building like the romance and the fun versus like those like kind of like the big adult adulting things about relationships. I think I'm wrong. But I feel like the specific situation with them is less about like the yearning and more about the fact. that they just are constantly walking on eggshells

with one another. They just like, don't really like each other. Yeah, I just feel like, it's oversimplifying. I think they're perfectionists. I think they both are a little rough around the edges. I think they both have, I mean, the stronger the personality you have, the less appealing you are to the masses, you know?

And I think they both have strong personalities. And I think you're, you know, when two strong personalities get in the room together, almost one or two things happen. There's either instant chemistry. There's like, bam, we get each other. Or there's instant friction. And I see with them, you're seeing instant friction.

And I think that's what the show, because it's a show, and we will love the drama. And we want to see the friction. That's what we're going to see. And if I'm a producer, and I don't know what's going to happen, maybe they're just, like maybe they hate each other now. I don't know. Like, who knows, right? But if I'm a producer and I'm an editor, and if they ended up together, this is how I'd tell their story.

period. Well, that's going to wrap up for today's show. We still have yet to talk about the double lives of suburban wives. But thank God we have another reality recap episode tomorrow. Tune in tomorrow. It's going to be another great, fun episode. We want to, again, thank our very special guest, Dr. Curry, for taking the time to educate us on some very important topics.

Obviously, we're very fascinated with this case, this Lindsay, Lindsay Clancy case. But we really appreciate Dr. Curry for guiding us through what is true, what is untrue about this case and most importantly, making us more aware of the challenges that mom's face and help us understand a little bit more about postpartum depression and the things that we can do to make this world a better place. Thank you again, Dr. Curry. Always great to have you, Sierra and Jimmy. Thanks everyone for listening. We'll see you back tomorrow. Bye-bye.