The Viall Files - E1185 - Heather Dubrow, Lindsay Clancy Mistrial, and MAFS with BelleJolie & Marissa

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Heather Dubrow joins to get into all things RHOC. Are Emily and Gina using her for a storyline? Does she think any of it is justified? How does she pack for Paris? All that, and more. Later, BelleJolie and Marissa from Married At First Sight join to discuss the reunion, what they've been up to, and why Adam's hat is somehow the ickiest thing about him. Plus, the Lindsay Clancy verdict. You won't want to miss it! "Casting did their big one with this!" Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE? Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content? Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Zenni: That scratched up pair has done its job. Upgrade today with Zenni! Go to https://www.zenni.com/podcast and use code PODCAST15 for fifteen percent off your first order, plus free shipping on all US orders over sixty five dollars.  Betterhelp: Sign up and get 10% off at https://www.BetterHelp.com/viall  Clearstem: Try my favorite skincare routine from clearstem, because clear skin changes EVERYTHING. Go to http://www.clearstem.com/viall and use code VIALL at checkout for 15% off your entire order. Quince: Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to https://www.Quince.com/viall. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too.  Ollie: Get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed. Head to https://www.Ollie.com/viall, tell them all about your dog, and use code VIALL to get 70% off your Welcome Kit when you subscribe today! To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nataliejoy @heatherdubrow @sheis_bellejolie @marissameyer17 @susiecevans @jsotos1 @justinkaphillips @the_mare_bare @baybaeee

Peter Weber is having twins. Twins. Stop it. How crazy. How unoriginal. Stop having twins. Literally. I thought it was chic.

I thought it was rare. I thought it was cool. And now everyone... People already said Peter and I looked like each other. Now he's having twins. It's like, come on, Pete. Get your own thing. Invitation is the highest form of compliment, flattery, something like that.

All serious is congratulations, Peter. You're in for a trip. It's a wild ride. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Val Fowl's Rehers. reality recap edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my wife. We have Susie and Jimmy with us as well in a jam-packed episode lined up for you. We have the iconic queen herself, Heather the bro. And also Sierra will be joining us as well as this episode. It's truly jam-packed. And then we have

two wonderful ladies from married at first sight, Belle and Marissa with us to talk about their experience with some of the most, how'd you frame it, Jimmy? Different. Different men. And, uh, and It was a fun conversation with those ladies. So much to get into. We're sitting here recording a little early. Obviously, we have Labor Day weekend. Well, now that you're listening to this, Labor Day weekend has come and gone. We are recording this a little bit early so that everyone and our team can enjoy the holiday that is Labor Day.

And it was just announced that the Lindsay Clancy trial was declared a mistrial, which, you know, I'm sure a lot of information will have come out by the time you're listening to this. but what a mess of a whole trial. We're hearing reports that it was one holdout for declaring her not liable or criminally liable, I guess. I don't, you know, she was always going to be in some kind of facility. But I think that man's a hero. He's never going to have to buy a drink again. I don't know.

I just, I'm just floored that the discourse of this case and how, you know, again, awareness for postpartum super important. But the way that is, it's leaped that and the way it's almost normalizing violence against children, I'm sorry. I just, I can't subscribe to that. I just think it's crazy. And I think the discourse is damaging society. I said it before and I'll say it again. We, you know, we can have the, bring the awareness to postpartum depression, make it where women aren't afraid to talk about it.

And it's handled the way that it should be and it's talked about the way that it should be. but we can also give those three babies the justice that they deserve, and the person who took them to the basement and murdered them, like, should be locked away for life because that, I mean, those poor babies, I just, like, can't even. It makes me so sad to even think about, but. I think it's that word criminally. Like, I know what it's like to, like, I grew up around lawyers.

Like, they're so good at arguing language. So that word criminally responsible, like, yes, she's responsible for the murder of those children. But like, then you argue the ambiguity, the ambiguousness of the word criminally, like, whether it was warranted or she was under this postpartum psychosis. Like, that's that damn word. And lawyers are so good at arguing language. Yeah. I'm just like, again, you know, mental health is a real problem in this country and it's

something we should take seriously. But the way we have framed it to not be responsible for our actions, again, if you're, if you're committing murder, on some level, there's a mental health problem. And I am concerned at the level of opportunity people will have to claim they were suffering from some kind of mental health disorder to justify a heinous act. And also just never apologize for like thinking that those babies deserved more. You know, like I'll just never be the person who's like, yeah, three babies died. But it's like there is no but. Like these babies died and that like some, you got to be held accountable.

at the end of the day. Yeah. Well, like our wonderful booker Angela said, I mean, you know, listen, this case will come and go, but I do think it is important that we continue to have awareness for the seriousness that is postpartum. And hopefully that, you know, all the kind of ugly discourse that's going on this case does not lose sight of what the real important conversations are. That, you know, postpartum depression is a real thing.

It should be addressed. It should not be ignored. And hopefully it doesn't have to get to the level it had in this case for people to take it seriously. And hopefully that, that remains, that awareness. And once people move on to another, you know, spectacle, another case in the true crime genre. Moving on, the Alex Earle show is out.

And she's to... People love it. I mean, it seems like it's a really, I don't, we haven't had a chance to watch it yet. We'll definitely watch it by... But the text she sent Alex Cooper was... Eight. iconic.

It was direct. Act specific and classy all at the same time. So in the show, Alex Earle is talking about what, you know, went down, what happened with Alex Cooper. And then this had to have come right after Alex Cooper posted her TikTok being like, Alex, just say it. Just say what we did, you know, kind of calling out the elephant in the room. And she kind of is sitting there with her family. And she's like, I'm drafting up this text. The text says, I wanted to write you directly and let you know I don't like you.

I'm not going to fault. What a strong start. I mean, just like to the point. I don't like you. I'm not going to fall for your bait of getting into a back and forth online, and I don't think you want that either. You are manipulative and toxic. Go ahead and say it's just business all you want, but the way you approach business is disgusting.

You choose money over morals. You took advantage of me at a young age in a new industry I knew nothing about. You are full of false promises, and unwell was a continuation of that. We had a call where you threatened me to not go to war with you. because you know how sick and twisted you are. Go ahead, share this. Use it against me, but you will no longer scare or trap me. You're right.

I may be petty, but I'm not malicious. If there's one thing I learned from doing business with you, it's to never do business with anyone like you. Woo! Like chills. Yeah. That was supposed to be me making or dropping the mic. I know.

I was like, mic drop. I'm curious what the false promises are because I think that's the root of this for me. obviously you can disagree with how somebody runs a business or whatever like you can be like oh we don't align here and there but a false promise sounds like Alex Cooper sold Alex Earle on something that she never delivered and that to me is like I want to know that's why I'm like dying to watch this show I'm like what was it that she was told she was going to get that she never got well wasn't well wasn't it I mean Alex Earle was the first podcast on Unwilled Network wasn't it so it's kind of one of definitely one my my guess it falls under the category of protecting whatever Alex Earl didn't want to share or her piece or something like that. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and Alex not necessarily respecting that. Well, I'm guessing it has just something to do with that kind of general. In this scene, she also talks about how, you know, they, before they started recording, they're kind of drinking and, you know, then they start recording and she's asking her

these sexual questions about her in Braxton and she's uncomfortable and she doesn't really want to answer them, but she's like, but I had been drinking. So like, I am answering them. And I do think that is like, that is like, that is. is this mentally like a scary place to be in when you're in that position of like you're around someone that you want to impress you want to like feel like you can be in their world and you can I'm she even said like I you know I looked up to Alex Cooper she was like a mentor to me like I you know she was this huge successful I wanted to be like that I'm new in this industry and you have someone being like oh here let's have fun let's drink and then you get on a podcast where

they know how to run the show and they're asking you questions where you don't want to be rude and say like, oh, no, I don't want to answer that but you also are uncomfortable. I mean, it just, I can totally see where Alex Earl was like, I wish that I had just like never done this.

Yeah. Anyways, it was. But that text was chef's kiss. Yeah. It was. Yeah, I remind me not to pick a fight without girl, you know. Yeah. I know.

I got to say, I feel like I'm an Alex Earl Stan. I just like I think she's a good follow. Like I enjoy her content. I appreciate how she shows up online and like seemingly is very authentic with her audience. By being sad, I feel like there's a lot of Alex Cooper slander. And my hot take on this is that like I'm sure people love to see a downfall. And if she is a terrible person or, you know, treats people terribly, I'm sure it feels so good for those people to feel vindicated. But I also really support a woman trying to. new things and I just think it's okay to fail. I feel like I've seen discourse online of people

who like make fun of influencers or people who try to like start a clothing line or like, you know, a house decor line and then it ends up in like marshals or T.J. Max and people are like, oh, this is so embarrassing. And I'm like, actually it's so not. Like I think it's really cool that people try. Are you referring to her the show that got canned? The show that got canned and the drink, obviously closing down and people are like foaming at the mouth. And I'm like, that's actually, unless you have a personal vendetta against her, I'm like, it's actually so shitty to just like pray on the downfall of somebody who is like trying something because outside of the influencer industry, outside of the creator industry, business entrepreneurs all the time throw like a thousand things out to try it to start a business and they fail. And it literally takes like a thousand failures to have one major success. So I just personally, as a woman, as someone who is a previous business owner, I like have to give her her props.

I'm like, who gives a fuck? I mean, she started a show. She started a line. Like, it's kind of badass. I'm totally with you. I mean, I don't, we know Alex. I don't know her that well. I can't speak to any of this stuff.

Obviously, just watching it as a fan and a viewer from a side, it just like Alex Earle's like just message is like regardless of who it's to is she was cooking. Yeah. But I agree. But yeah. I mean, Alex Cooper is an incredible. incredibly successful business person, one of the most successful in the space, man or a woman. And, you know, maybe she's made mistakes.

Maybe she has some lessons to learn. Maybe she needs to move differently. I don't know. But yes, you can't, like, if you're criticized, if you're finding joy and projects she's had that don't work, you're just a fucking hater. And you just don't have a gut. Yeah.

I think House Cooper is, like, by definition, like a shark. And in some industries, that's, like, champion, like in the business world, that's like, that's what you need to be in order to make it. She's a serial entrepreneur and she's great at what she does. And to get to that level, you have to fail early and often. But sometimes it can get lost on you how you treat people outside of business. Yeah, you know, she comes from the bar stool kind of space, you know. And then the question is like, how much has she, how much were some of those moves influenced by that?

How much has she changed, you know, does she acknowledge, you know, whether it's to herself or to, you know, people in private that she has some regrets of how she's moved. I don't know. Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. Through Barstow, like, you learn that, like, people's vulnerabilities and, like, toxicity and, like, just baiting, it goes viral.

So, like, it makes sense why. I don't want to say she's weaponizing somebody else's, like, trauma or vulnerability or just, like, stories. But, like, you, I see why, like, she has a proof of concept that maybe she wanted Alex Earl to adhere to. And Alex is like, wait, I'm actually not. comfortable with this. And now they're both like stars in their own right and their, their gravity is almost combative now. And for the record, I feel like I'm on Alex Earle's side.

I just also have to give Alex Cooper her props. That's just how I feel. I love Alex Earl. I think she's so cute. I mean, well, in that message it suggests that they had a call and Alex was like, don't mess with me. You know how to, you know, like, I don't, you know, assuming that, you know, I mean, there's, I mean, how many, a lot of people, you know, have, and maybe it just take, you know, it's like the, when it rains the course. I think you can, I think you, I think you might be able to resonate with me on this. I think they need to play one-on-one to settle the beef. One-on-one basketball. Or one-on-one pickleball or a sport because everybody knows it's all beef and we hate each other.

And as soon as the game ends, the game, bro. You know, maybe, maybe this, yeah, maybe this is the beginning of a, uh, some kind of resolution. You know, like on WWE where, you know, you have two rivals and they come together. Or, and they fight it out. Or like tomorrow's episode where we have Mr. Harry Jousy on the show. And Harry and I squash our beef and obviously talk about his experience on Let's Marry Harry. It's a great episode. I wouldn't say we hash it out, but, you know, Harry showed up willing to have us address some of his,

some questions about his behavior on the show. at the same time, this wasn't like the trial of Harry Jousy. And we just had like an honest conversation about what it's like for him to, you know, he's truly made a career out of being like America's fuckboy. And on some level, being like someone who understands how the sausage is made in reality TV and how like, you know, sometimes it is annoying being on these shows and finding that balance between like making good TV and then having every decision you make, you know, your judge for that character.

Anyways, it's a fantastic episode. I think you'll really enjoy it. And we certainly, we hash it out. It's a fun episode. And maybe Alex Earle and Alex Cooper will one day have their Maya Copa. Is it Mayacopa?

Am I using that proper? What does Mayacopa mean? I think I used it wrong. As long as they're both in the content game, they will have that moment. Yeah. Mayacopas are formal admissions of fault, errors, or wrongdoings issued by a person

or organization. Nailed it. I love it when I try a big word. word and I landed. You love it. When you don't have to Mea culpa, you're Mayacopa. Mary, you said a word last time.

It sounded like taradactyl and I had to act like I knew what you said. I had no idea. Girl, probably me either. Peter Weber is having twins. Stop it. How crazy. How unoriginal.

Stop having twins. I thought it was chic. I thought it was rare. I thought it was cool. And now everyone... People already said Peter and I looked like each other. Now he's having twins. It's like, come on, Pete.

Get your own thing. Imitation is the highest form of compliment flattery, something like that. Well, congratulations. All seriousness, congratulations, Peter. You're in for a trip. It's a wild ride. Do we, did he also announce his relationship? At the same time, he had posted like a little silhouettey photo of, like, his birthday and she was in it.

No tag. How long have they been together? I don't know. I think he'd also, I think they had shared pictures together before as well. Okay. I think. Maybe not. Honestly, I've got to say, well, I don't, I think she's a lot younger than me, but as somebody in their 30s, I'm like, twins would be my dream. Like, because then for me it'd be one and done. I'd be down after that. I hope you have a nervous system built out of steel. Oh, yeah, or like a ton of money. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just like not even like the slightest bit of an anxious person. If there anything like cats, I'll be fine for all the non-parents wanting to be parents out there.

I will say parenting is 90% confidence. Ooh, good to know. You know, because honestly, it's so scary and you don't know what you're doing and you're just kind of figuring out as you go, but you really have to have this like, I got this attitude and I'm good at this and my baby needs me because like it's, it's incredible how little babies a few weeks old can like feel anxiousness and respond. And like when we, you know, we have a large family and support system and a lot of help. And you can just, you know, when when people who are a little anxious holding the babies, it's, it's crazy how they react.

They smell fear. They're like horses. You know, like horses are the same way. They can like, if you're on top of a horse, they always say this to like be very calm because they can feel your like energy. And if you are just like scared and tight and all this stuff, then like the horses, respond to that. And it's the same way. Babies, if you just like pick up a crying baby and you're like, listen, it's all good. Not a big of a deal. Like, I'm going to call me down and you're going to stop crying. And that's your vibe. They'll stop crying. No, it's crazy. Yeah. It's, it's really,

it's so, it's like 90% confidence. What's the last 10%? Because I might be ready then. Being adaptable. Adaptable. No, Jimmy, you're going to be a great. You're going to be, you, you're, you're going to be a great dad. You know, you're, uh, hope so. You're, you're, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a doer, you know, like you're, you're, you're a grinder, you know, that parenting's all grinding. It's just, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's not worrying about the next challenge. It's when it comes, you're just like, it's just being like, we'll figure the fuck out. I don't know. We'll keep it one foot in front of the other. Yeah. It's all, it's, you know, it's showing up, honestly, especially for the dads, right? Because some dads out there

have a way of, of not. And, uh, yeah, showing up and having that confidence. Uh, speaking of showing up, Bethany Frankel has showed up to Burning Man and, um, She's vlogging. She's making some great content. I'm here for the content. Have you been? Is this Burning Man? Anyone?

I want to go to it's so bad. You do? I have no interest. So bad. I just love festivals and raving. I just love it. It's such like an immersive experience. Like you really just find this like quirky community of people that you just let loose.

And I remember the first time I like actually allowed myself to submit to the experience and just like let go. And it was so fucking. fucking fun. Yes, like electric force. Everybody's dressed like goblins and fairies and wizards. It was awesome. Is this the thing where you hold hands and you put? It's called Molly.

Is this the thing? Is this the thing? It's awesome. Is this the thing where you hold hands and then you put the bracelet onto their bracelet by not breaking hands? Plur. Pleur. Peace, love, unity, responsibility.

I respect. I've met a couple of people who have gone to Burning Man and said they had a religious experience. And after talking to them, I'm like, I don't want to have that. I don't know. I don't want to have that same experience. I just want to go and party and hang out with some oddballs and nobody's going to judge me for dancing weird and shit. Like, it's just fun.

You can come to my house if you want that. You know what I mean? Down. Down. No, I do. I will say, Nallie is not, you know, we are, you know, we're, we have a lot of similarities. But when it comes to music, I will admit that I can,

I can jam to some techno and some, um, some club music. Hey, Lala Ploosin next year. Let's run it. Have you, you've seen friends and neighbors? that meme of John Hamm at the club? Yeah. Like that, like I want that for me someday.

Someday I'm going to be at a club. I don't know what age. And I'm going to be like, I'm back, baby. And I'm not even, I was never a big club guy, but like I do like, listen,

parenting, being at home, it's, you know, there's a grind. There's a little mundaneness to it. And there's a part of me that just wants to be like free,

you know, just like, John Hamm. Like that, that meme, it's like, I think that's why that meme's so popular because like there's,

I think there's so many parents and dads out there who just like want to want to want to be on drugs at a club and just like let loose one day we need a nick and jimmy yeah it doesn't say y'all need to go to chicago nick do do you like dinosaurs oh by the way jimmy happy birthday it's jimmy's birthday today thank you yeah that will be me at the club tonight yeah yes i need a we need a we need a jimmy takes nick out to chicago can you wear like a like a like a body cam so we can get the footage and we can play it on the next episode. We're doing the whole.

We're doing a hole. We're spending my birthday with me. Yeah, we're going on a yacht, pulling up to dinner on the boat, going to the club. Chicago Bay? Yeah. Yeah, we're taking it on the river. What's the girl the guy ratio you'll be hanging out with this weekend? I believe it's me and my three homies and filling a boat with friends. Filling a boat.

Any other men need not apply, you know. Yeah, no, we're good. We're good on numbers. Wow. Living the dream. Jimmy, living the dream. It's going to be a fun time. But I was saying, Nick, if you like dinosaurs,

there is a festival in Ohio called Lostlands that is a rave that I've yet to check off my bucket list. If you like dinosaurs, are they there? I don't dislike dinosaurs. Yes, they're huge. They're like literal dinosaurs. Imagine being at a rave, you know, under the influence of whatever, you decide.

And you just see a giant stegosaurus while listening to techno. That to me sounds like my hell. Yeah. Yeah. My imagination gets away from me when I dabble. You know what I mean? Fair. All right.

Well, it's time to get to our guest. Our first one, the queen, Heather Debrough. It's always great to have Heather in the studio. And she's a breath of fresh air and just truly. And when they say I kind of housewife, she is that and more. She is up next. And then we have the ladies, Bell and Marissa from married at first side. But before we get to our guest, don't forget the Valfaus Plus is available and ad free for all you subscribers out there.

Jimmy has now recently joined us on Vowfow's. plus and it's been a lot of fun to have him. We have some great conversations about, well, we really dived in Lindsay Clancy of it all in an upcoming episode. We have a reality recap deep dives where you dive deep in all your favorite shows that we don't always get to talk about on reality recap, plus your pop extra episodes and your update specials, all your favorite updates from your favorite Ask Nick Calls.

So if that is something you want to enjoy, and I think that you should. Just go to vauffiles.com to sign up and you will be glad that you did. All right, it's time to get to Heather the bro. And here she is. I like your new studio. Thank you, Heather. Welcome back.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. Heather, I think about you often because of our dinner with Crystal where we picked out our diamond rings and you told me that you're wearing it. Wow. Of course. You told me that you were in a phase of no earrings. And I was like, God, she's so chic. And so I haven't been wearing earrings either.

And I've been saying it's because of you. But really, just because I have. That's so funny. Well, can I tell you something? Full disclosure, I've been wearing earrings again. That era has ended. However, one of my earrings, the backing, like, fell out in my car. So I'm like a pediddle right now. I'm only wearing one. Listen, fashion leads. It doesn't follow, you know. So we're just trying to keep up. There you go. So I'm in my one earring thing. Okay, great. Follow that, Natalie. It's so good to have you back. How are you in life? How are you doing? How's Terry? You know how much of a fan I am of his?

Yeah. He loves you. you and we're great. We're having fun. We're going to Paris next week. Love. We're going to Celine Dion's opening night. I'm a big fan. How did the bros decide to go to Paris? Is it just like, you know what? We haven't been to Paris in a while. Is it an event that brings you there? How do you guys choose to live and do exciting things? It depends. Like, we didn't really have a lot of plans for the summer and fall because our kids were going in 12 different directions. So, you know, the twins just graduated college. Nikki is doing 12 jobs. Max just started law school. Katarina just went back for her sophomore year of Yale. Ace just started a sophomore year of high school. But they were all, like,

very involved this summer. But like, I saw there was a Dior pop up at the Chippriani Hotel in Venice. And I looked at Terry and I'm like, I would like to go to that. And he said, I would like to go with you. And I said, that's great. So we did that. And then when Celine Dion announced, she was doing this residency in Paris, and Paris is like just our happy place. We love Paris. And I got tickets and we're going. Wow. What are you going to wear? I don't know yet. I am just now concepting my outfits. I have some question marks. Would you go empty handed and go shopping in Paris? Are you always coming prepared? Or do you bring something prepared to but still go shopping in case you find something better.

Have we just met? I'm always prepared. I am the kind of packer. Yes. So I take pictures in all the outfits. I lay them on the floor and take pictures with all the bag, the shoes, the accessories. And then I pack in tissue paper and plastic.

So everything is perfect and is not creased. And I have an outfit for each occasion, maybe one just in case outfit. And then I, yes, I will be shopping while I'm there. but I will not shop with the intention of wearing it while there. You're such an inspiration. I don't think Terry would agree with you just so you know. Is Terry a good gift giver?

Is that part of his love language or is he struggle with like I do? Terry doesn't have love languages. Okay. How convenient. I'm only sort of kidding. No, he, when he wants to, he's a fantastic gift giver. Like, he's got beautiful taste, truly. And when he's in the mood, but he does not like Hallmark holidays.

So, like, if you say, this is a moment where you must get a gift. Like, it's Valentine. He doesn't like that he has to give a gift on Valentine's Day or something like that. But when he sees something and the mood hits him, he'll just buy it. I'll take a just-because gift any day over a holiday gift, yeah. You know what he does do that is really fantastic? He always buys me a rap gift at the end of the season. Oh, jewelry.

Okay, I was like at the end of every season, like summer and fall, you just could have present to celebrate nature? Yeah, winter, spring. Sorry, I'm stupid. I'm stupid. No, but at the end of when we're done filming the season, it started a few years ago. And we went out to dinner and he had a gift for me. And he was like, I just want to tell you, I've really admired the way you have handled the season and, you know, handled the family and me and everything. You just gave me this beautiful speech and handed me, you know, a box that was green, which was awesome.

Okay, supportive husband for the win. A green box. Natalie's like, what's green? We know. We know. A little Rolex. Oh, no. Lighter color green.

Botega? Oh. Van Cleef. Oh. We don't know. We don't know. We haven't graduated yet. I also want a green box.

Yes. Let's call it. Crystal, maybe she'll have another party. Truly. We're always out of town for so many of Crystal's parties. Wasn't there just one? Yeah, Rob had a birthday party. Yes.

By the way, you guys missed a good one. I know. That was fun. You missed Crystal singing. Rob's singing, performing. Wasn't he good? He was so good. Yeah.

Do they have a Beatles cover band? Well, they performed eight years ago. Oh, my God. That's so good. That was incredible. Sorry, guys. No, thanks for. We deserve it.

We deserve it. Well, Sierra and I had a great time, and I think that's really the important part. Heather, congratulations on 10 seasons. I'm like 10. You know what? It is my 10th. But you know what's so funny? I started 15 years ago.

Because no, no, no, no. I started in season seven and I was on for five seasons and then I left for four. And then I came back for five. So what's weird is, even though I was gone for a few seasons, I started the show when my youngest child was nine months old and he is going to be 16 in December and just got his permit. And so for me, even though I was gone for four seasons, I just think of it as like this 15 year journey because even when you're out, you're not out. You're still in.

Yeah, a bit. Are you really feeling the love as Bravo kind of celebrates this kind of 20 seasons of housewives? Or is it just kind of like, you know, just another season. you keep on, keep on, keep it on. Well, I mean, I'm certainly cognizant to the fact that it's, you know, a moment, you know, the 20th season of Real Housewives is huge.

And to be a part of this piece of pop culture, that's not lost on me. And I'm really, I am very grateful for it. It hasn't always been easy. But when you look at the bigger picture of what it's done for me, for my family, for Terry, like all of us, I am so. grateful. This season in particular, you know, I think we're feeling the nostalgia of all of it.

And, you know, reflecting on my tenure here, look, there's definitely been ups and downs. I think it's so cute to see my kids when they were little. I mean, the kids were 7, 7, 4, and 9 months old when we started. And they're now 22, 22, 19, and 15. So, yeah, it's cute to see them grow up. It's amazing, you know, where we've come, yeah, just everything we've done all through these years. Crazy. I do have regrets, though. Any ones that stand out? Lots of them.

I mean, look, you know, having your life, you know, having your life filmed is not easy. And we all make mistakes. We all say stupid things. We all trip and misstep. And then to see it on television and have everyone opine about it constantly is. You know, it's hard. Are there any of that, like, stick out in a way where you feel like you still get asked about it or still have to address it in a way that's like, you're like, I really regret that

because I've had to, it doesn't fucking go away. I don't have a ton of that from people. People usually want to talk to me about my kids or my marriage or they want to, like, talk about breaking the bow off the kid, like, funny things that I've said over the years. but I was just with Shannon for the last hour and she's still very upset that I asked her to leave my house and that I said she was having a psychotic break and should we call an ambulance her first season

and I definitely regret both of those things and I feel bad and I'm very sorry Shannon she's not letting it go. Shannon. It happens. But look, if you met Shannon for the first time, you might have questions. She's her own type.

She's great. And we love her for it. She's great. How are you feeling about this season and in some of the drama you've been a part of? Were you going to say caused? No. No. No.

Have you watched? You don't have to say yes, but have you watched it? Yeah. It's maybe my favorite housewife. Really? Do you think they're all on my case? Yes. I was going to ask, why do you think they're all on your case?

I mean, they really don't even show a lot of what happened. I was going to say somebody that watches consistently. It kind of feels like there's always kind of been a little since you've been back, like a little case on you. And then this season in particular, it just kind of feels like we're grasping at anything and everything. It reminds me of season 17 because that happened that season. And it was even worse, I think, season 17.

But it's like, I look at it like this. When you like someone, you sort of forgive their foibles and their things. And when you don't like someone or you're looking for problems, you can certainly find them behind every corner. What's frustrating for me is that Vicky will come on and say something outrageous or come late, leave her, whatever she does. And everyone goes, that's just Vicki. And that behavior is all just excused. I mean, you don't, Vicky, as far as I'm concerned, mom shamed. Carmela when we were in Las Vegas, and you don't see that dragging on for three episodes.

But God forbid, someone doesn't like the way I pronounce Sangria. And there is like, you know, federal offense. You know what it is? What is the saying heavy is the crown, so to speak? Yes. You know, like we hold you to a higher standard, you know? Well, then they should know that I'm pronouncing it. And I will absolutely take your word for it because, like, you're Heather fucking Debrose.

You know, like why you've always been one of my favorites is because obviously what it means to be a housewife. We've talked about this, I think, the first time you're on the show. That has evolved and changed over the years. And that's cool because it's great TV and we get to see different families and different lifestyles. But like the essence of a housewife is this obtainable, like aspirational lifestyle, excuse me, not obtainable, quite frankly. And in elegance, in a way that you've always carried and you've been consistent and you bring a level of aspiration. that, at least quite frankly, for me, it's just like, I love watching these people and I want to be them. And when Vicky does it, it's like, you know, I don't think you want us to be like, well, that's

Heather being Heather, you know, because now, usually it's like, what is Heather DeBro doing, you know? And it's like, we hold you to a higher standard, I guess. Well, I appreciate that, but can you imagine how difficult it is? Yes. To be existing. Having to be better than everybody. No, yes. Well, it's easy. I don't have to work at that, Nick. All I'm saying is, can you imagine, Imagine just living your life and then anything you do, like someone's just waiting. Yeah. For you to say something wrong or do something wrong. And it's like, my gosh, I've never said that I'm perfect or I know everything or, you know,

like you're holding me to a standard that I'm not holding myself to. Yeah, we kind of project that onto you, right? Yes. Yeah. But with the girls, it's difficult. gold. Yeah. But I was also going to say even the poker table situation where it was like you were defending Carmela, you somehow ended up getting the brunt of that whole situation versus Vicky, who was actually saying the terrible things that everyone agreed was terrible. But then they were

like, oh, you defended her after you said you didn't like her, which I'm also kind of like, why are you not allowed to change your mind about Carmela? First of all, why are you not allowed to change your mind about someone you are? And that you'll see that on tonight's episode. I don't know when this is airing, but the current episode. you'll see sort of what happens with that. But you're absolutely right. Vicky is so wrong and inappropriate and mom shames. Carmela, I don't care if I don't like you.

If someone is mom shaming you, I am going to go stand up for you. It is not appropriate on the show. It's not appropriate in real life. It's not appropriate anywhere. And that is a hard and fast rule for me. But you're right. No one went after Vicky for HashBiff. And what was really interesting was at the time,

and this wasn't shown, but everyone was sort of angry at me for taking Vicky to task. And then I noticed in everyone's confessionals, they were like, oh, Vicky was so wrong. Well, isn't that convenient to have that thought months later at the green screen? In real time, were you realizing that they were coming for you? Or is this something that like just added up after the fact? At this particular thing we're talking about, it wasn't to everyone. It was one or two people in particular. But in general, I did notice that people were coming at me.

And I'm telling you, there was even more that wasn't shown. I mean, we only have 42 minutes an episode. But I did notice it. And that's why at Carmel's pool party, I was about to take a sip of champagne. And Emily started it with me. And I went, one second. And I put my glass down because I was like, okay, go ahead. Like, let me prepare myself for what's to come.

Were you surprised by Emily this season? Yes. Coming at you because it feels like you guys have been fine. It's so bizarre to me. And it's very mercurial. And to me, it's, I don't understand it. Housewives are famous for not apologizing all that well. And I thought you, did you get credit for your apology to Carmela?

Because you were very gracious. So I also, at the end of that conversation, I said to Carmela, I go, listen, I think I know you well enough now to, to know that you might like marinate on this and be upset again and have more questions. And if you want to sit down with me and talk about this, totally happy to. And you also notice I didn't bring anyone else in our group into that conversation. Right. It was true and I felt terrible. And I really did think.

And it also makes it sound like I was having, like I said that she was trashy multiple times. It was a one-time conversation I had with Gina off camera that was repeated. to Emily off camera that was repeated to Jen off camera that they brought on camera. So there, you know. Has there ever been a headline about you where you felt you've been judged by someone unfairly where, you know, they had to like realize the truth or, you know, where you felt like how Carmela felt? I mean, probably. I don't know if I can pull something off the top of my head. But I do remember there was, I think it was season 17, the one we were talking about where the girls were.

making a big deal that Heather is telling Shannon's personal information all around town. And I'm like, I'm not. She told me a bunch of things in confidence. I literally never repeated. And I didn't understand until later, it was Shannon giving out her personal information. Because she would like, you know, drink a little and tell people and not remember she told people, whatever. And I remember seeing Emily in one of her confessionals saying something that I'm keeping in the fault that is terrible that I wouldn't repeat. And Emily knew too. So then I realized, oh, okay, she's telling everyone and they all know, but they want me to be the fall guy for this. I'm like, all right. That was difficult. You and Gina, but best friends, as far as I know, still on good terms,

right? I love Gina. I just, I'm surprised. We have the reunion coming up, so I have to, like, be a little bit careful here. And Gina and I have been through our ups and downs. But Gina and Emily, not just in this season, but after the season and in the press, I'm surprised by some of the conversations and comments. Okay, because I'm watch what happens live a couple weeks ago. She was like very adamant that she loves you so much and that you guys are on good terms. I was confused watching seeing this whole real estate situation and how it seems to be such a big issue for her, but she didn't say anything to you about it in the sense of,

was there a anything behind you? to work with Carmela over Gina? And do you feel like you should have said something to Gina? To me, Carmela is a real estate agent in San Diego County. And she has kids similarly age to mine. So she would know, like, where a law student, you know, would want to live. Because, you know, my kid's not a partier. She wouldn't want to live in Pacific Beach, like, for example.

Like, she knows the, I figured she'd know the pockets and the places and whatever. And by the way, I mean, not for nothing. There's no money to be made. Like, I don't know if they thought I was buying my kid a mansion. But it's like a rental apartment. Have you tried a white monster yet? No. Will you?

You know, I'm not good with caffeine. Okay. I don't even drink coffee. You don't? The only caffeine I get are espresso martine is, and it's bad. Because then I'm, like, three in the morning, I'm going, Terry, are you at? And then I like the neuromints. Okay, yeah.

I was going to say, I think you're sponsored by them, but I am not yet. Well, maybe after this. They're wonderful. They are good. Anytime I have an opportunity to interview a housewife. I have such empathy for all of you in just the world that you guys have to navigate. And just like, you're feeling this season. You're always worried about what's going to happen.

Post show, everyone, you know, the press tours. You know, it's just like you wake up, TMZ, so-and-so said so. and like I'm on the vial files as a headline. Yeah, it must be challenging. I'm just curious, does Terry ever get like activated in a way where he's like, you're chill and he's like, I can't believe fucking Gina said this? Or is he just kind of out there doing his own thing and never really gets that involved? He has never cared until Vicky started with this inherited money thing.

It's the only reason I brought it up with Vicky because he was so pissed about it. It's not true. I forget what's the story. Oh, so Vicky basically said that we inherited our money. And he's not one of the most notable surgeons and you're not one of the most iconic housewives or... She's like, plastic surgeons don't live in $50 million homes. They don't this and that, whatever. I mean, it's been an ongoing thing.

Mr. Terry DeBrow. Yes. Don't talk about his guy like that. I mean, listen, I don't need to give everyone our financial picture. sure, but we're just fine. And I would love it if someone left us money. That would be great. As it turns out, the opposite is true.

And we really take care of a lot of people, which we're happy to do. But the point is, that activated him. He doesn't care. They say he's gay. They say we have a lavender marriage. They say he cheats on me. Like, whatever it is. There's always like something.

He could care less. He thinks it's so funny. We even did like an Instagram post where he talked about it. He's like, if I was gay, I'd be gay. We put like ABBA music on top of it. He's such a good sport. He's the best, best guy ever. We've been together in December.

It will be 30 years. Oh, congrats. I fucking love my husband. We have so much fun together. And he's never been activated until that. That struck a thing with him. He grew up in Van Nuys and had nothing and was the, you know, out of this plumber stepped it, mean stepdad.

and he dug himself out and we've done okay. He doesn't work your asses off. Yeah. He doesn't want, he didn't like that. Why do you feel like y'all have made it 30 years? What has worked for real's marriage? Well, separate bathrooms is very important. I mean, honestly, I think you have good days and bad days,

good years and bad years, and it's all about how you get through it. Because like, you guys have now three kids under three. We have been there. It is exhausting. and you have to make sure, and I think we talked about this when we all had dinner,

but like, you know, you got to make sure you're having date night. You're having sex. People, you know, are watching those kids for you so you can have, or you, Natalie, like,

alone time. And I'm sure you're super involved too, Nick. Like, you have to make sure you each have alone time. You have couple time and you have family time. And you must be on top of that. And we've been really good at that.

That's awesome. How is it having your mom? Is she in L.A.? Or is she in Orange County? Yes. Yes. My mother is now in Los Angeles. She's also on the show this year.

That was interesting. Love it. How is she enjoying it? Oh, she loves it. She is very excited about her newfound fame. She really, she feels like she's in her element. We shot some content the other day. Oh, my God.

Oh, yeah. Is it TikTok? There's some TikToks coming your way. I'll bet your mom made it before Tamara. She looks great. I never would have guessed. She's your mom. Right?

She's 84. She hates what I say that. But she's never had any plastic surgery. Like she just looks horrific. I mean, we're, I think that's why Terry married me because he looked at my mom. And he was like, oh, she's going to age well. I think this is probably good.

But she's great. I mean, it's challenging having her on the show. Mm. Because she has her own version of things. things that have happened. And so I think some of my friends on the show thought I was worried that she was going to like tell something that I didn't want her to tell. Like I don't care. I have Diary of the Bath. I will talk about anything and I, there's nothing off limits. And so I'm not worried that she's going to like divulge something about me. I'm worried she's going to

say something that's not true. She's like the perfect housewife. Yes. I mean, did you hear her? We were walking in. We were having lunch with Shannon and Vicki and we're walking in. I can't believe they show this. They break the fourth wall all the time. It's so funny. We're walking in and she starts going, I'm saying nothing. We're just walking. Just like walk in, right? We're walking and she goes, really? You don't say. And I go, what are you doing? I go, are you acting? She goes, I saw somewhere that you look better on film if you're laughing. So as we're, were walking in, she just wanted to be pretending to have a conversation and laughing without telling me that this is what we were doing. That's so brilliant. I was like, oh my. Yeah. No, that's so true. And as someone who has an unpleasant resting gaze, uh, I wish someone would have told me that, you know, just smile more. Well, now you know. You know, don't look so grumpy. Now you know, at any time you're seeing that paparazzi, start laughing and talking to Natalie. It's funny, but I will tell you that my parents were

on the show years ago. And, you know, and Then my mom was on the show once and it didn't go well. And so she did not want to be on the show again. And pulling her in this season was tricky. Like, I really didn't talk about my dad until after he passed away because I am, you know, I'm on the show. They're not. And I don't think it's fair for me to put their lives on TV.

But after he passed away, I was like, eh, it's a free for all now. We can talk about it. That's fine. But my mother is very much alive and kicking. and I would never, you know, intentionally do something to hurt her or make her uncomfortable. So it was a little bit tricky. You'll see later in the season we do have a very heartfelt conversation that doesn't go exactly as I hoped that it would go because I love her. And in some ways we're similar.

But emotionally, we're not. Thank you for teasing that. But everything's okay with mom. Yeah, she's great. She's taking Pilates. At 85? It's really 84. And yes, she has immersed herself into the L.A. culture.

I mean, in five seconds, she'll be on a GLP1. Your whole family is an inspiration, Heather. Heather, it's always a pleasure to have you. Thank you for coming on. Always great to see you. Tell Terry we said hi. Can we please have dinner again when we're back in town? We'd love to.

And next time, why don't Terry and I come on together? Please. Please. Love that. Love that. You guys have come on with. ever. Okay, great. Heather Debrough, everybody.

What a queen. Truly. If y'all see me with one earring just now, Heather Dubrow. Like Michael Jordan. No, I'm not kidding. Jimmy is like my little brother kind of like I kind of want to be Jimmy's mentor to whatever he wants and I want Mr. Terry Debrough

to be my mentor. I'm obsessed with Terry. I just I think he's a cool guy and a great dad and a successful businessman. He's so cool. And then Heather, you know, what a, I have such a crush on him. I just want to emulate that family. Their goals. They really are. Anyway. Well, I have a crush on Beljoli and Marissa from married at first sight, and they are up next. Bella Jolie and Marissa, welcome to the show. It's great to be with you.

Thank you guys. Thank you. Hello. How are you ladies feeling now that everything is, you know, wrapped, so to speak, relieved, sad, anxious. How are you all feeling? Relieved. Yeah, same. Definitely relieved. And anxious, always.

Okay. Resting state of anxious. Are you pretty overall happy with how you ladies, your individual and personal experience on the show, outside of all the drama that you guys had to deal with, do you guys feel pretty good about how you showed up? I mean, I think. For me, I know that I showed up as myself, like I am very loving and caring and things like that.

But being that all of that was a year ago and having to watch myself a year ago back, that is the hard part for me because I've done so much self-growth since then. And so that's the hard part because I do have a couple of regrets. I'm still working on the don't have any regrets thing. There are a couple that I have. but yeah so I think I wish I could have showed up more as myself you know what I'm saying I think people only got one tiny little layer of like who I am altogether so can you share a couple of those regrets I regret that I said yes I regret that I did not stand up for myself in moments that I should have

multiple times that I should have but there are a lot of things in my head of why I didn't when these crazy comments are being made. It's just like, for one, I'm just like, I don't want to give, like, I think there was a pride sense of like not wanting to give him or anybody the satisfaction of knowing they got a reaction out of me because then they'll be like, got her. You know what I'm saying? But it really didn't matter because he got me either way it went. So I wish I would have just stood on business in that moment because it really didn't matter what I did, you know? So I'm happy that I never regret giving anybody genuine love, though. So I don't really. regret that part. I think you can never never go wrong and giving someone love, but I wish I could

have been how I am now on that show because I did, again, a lot of work with myself and just my self-confidence and just everything. So that's the part that's just kind of like, dang, it's kind of like the big sister watching Little Sister on TV. Like, girl, come on, what are you doing? Like, so, yeah. So you think you gave too much grace? Absolutely. Way, way, way too much. But I kind of was like, you know what's so crazy? Like at first, when the show first came out, it was easy for me to read comments because I kind of, the comments didn't bother me. I'm like, I'm kind of enjoying seeing other people's perspective. Like, I didn't think about it that way. But then when it started getting crazy, I'm like, all right, now I'm done reading comments. But one thing that I think people got misconstrued is they thought I was desperate for love and desperate for his love. And it had nothing to do with that. As bad as it sounds, I was dedicated to showing him real love. I was dedicated to showing him real love. I wanted to give him a safe space. I wasn't thinking about me at all. And that's where I went wrong.

Like, I wanted him to feel love. It had nothing to do with me. So I think just the way I went about that was not good. And it kind of comes with immaturity as well because, I mean, all of my relationships were kind of like that. I kind of have to take stuff on the chin from guys before they actually, you know, kind of like beating through that hard shell. And I know there's a teddy bear under there.

But I shouldn't have to do all that work. So, yeah, definitely gave too much grace. but I think it just because I was thinking about everything he's went through. And I know eventually, you know, they usually always come around eventually, but it just got worse and worse. So it's just not a good idea to do at all. Can I almost respectfully disagree? I was going to say the same thing.

Really? I only say this because I think the fact that you gave him grace showed that kind of empathetic soft side. And you gave him chances to make mistakes. and it didn't feel to me just watching you just as a viewer that because the internet can be cruel, right? Like they're reactive. But like I felt like in relationships you have to show up and be, you know, and give people a chance to make mistakes. And I felt like you really did that.

And it just as a viewer, it seemed like the way you moved allowed you to not have any regrets. Like in a sense like, yeah, it's easy to go back and be like, well, now that I know the truth, I probably could have, you know, stood on business a little sooner. but I feel like hindsight's 2020 and I don't know. I feel like it takes a lot of strength to give grace. And I don't think you're getting credit for that online, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Okay, yeah, I totally agree.

I think that's why I had to stop reading the comments after a while because it's like it doesn't matter what you do. You could do everything right. They're still going to find something. So like after a while I learned my lesson with that. Again, I do not regret giving him love and grace and care and all of that. I will never regret that. I'll do it a hundred times again.

I think it's just the boundary aspect. I don't think I had boundaries enough for myself. And I think that's more so what I'm saying. Like I'm glad that I gave him grace. I don't regret any of that. But I think there's not a limit necessarily, but just a certain way to go about it. I think I was neglecting myself in a way as well.

You know what I'm saying? I wasn't really thinking about me. And it ended up being like the whole show became about Mecca and like his trauma and everything he's been through unless catered to Mecca. And I played a part in that. You know, it was nothing really, I mean, a lot of people didn't really know a lot about me because he was kind of surrounded about him.

But I also played a part in making it about him. So that's why I say I wish I would have considered myself a little more than I did. Still giving the same love and grace, but just, you know, considering myself a little more, having some more, like, healthy boundaries for myself. Well, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that's a challenge in a relationship when you have, you know, someone who, you know, is comfortable with bringing up their needs a lot. like Mecca or just like leading with their flaws. Yeah, it is a hard balance to strike.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. How about you, Marissa? Yeah, I have a bunch of regrets from watching it back. Thank you for asking. No, it was a hard watch. I wanted to shake me. And, you know, knowing what I know now, it's just, I'm embarrassed to see how I behaved.

And I said throughout the show, I was like, that's how the 23-year-old. me would act and I'm like, well, I'm still doing it at 30. So it was hard to watch me do repeat behavior in this relationship and like not stand up for myself and ask for what I wanted. Did it feel like Adam was, because like similar to Mecca, right? They different but similar. Like they, it seemed like both those guys were very good at just stating how they thought things should be or what they wanted in a way that was almost, you know, it kind of took the oxygen out of the room almost. Yeah, they had a lot of requirements. Yes, a lot of requirements. Non-negotiables. Non-negotiables. And they're very unique. I have to say, though, I feel like

just personally, I think relationships take flexibility and both of you showed up so flexible. And it's so cheesy to say, but it's like that phrase that's like, like, if you can love the wrong person this much, imagine how it would be with the right person. And so I think the way y'all showed up in these relationships, although at the time you probably look back like you're saying and you're like, oh, I regret or I didn't stand up for myself. Obviously, you can take that and learn. But the way you showed up actually, I believe is very healthy. It just wasn't reciprocated on the other side of things. Do you guys feel like you've always kind of brought that energy to relationships where you're flexible and you're like, oh, I'm down to be a team player and make sacrifices and it just hasn't been reciprocated? Or maybe do you feel like

you attract partners that are super rigid in their ways? Yes, and like they'll take advantage and like we'll give them an inch and they'll take a mile, which is, you know, that's tough to come back from. I think Adam, at least from a viewer's perspective, I felt like he mistook your flexibility for malleability. Like he felt like he could mold you into this type of partner that he needs in his eyes. Yes. Whereas you were trying to compromise and be flexible, but he saw it as like almost like a project. Yes, exactly. And like I think he's made comments before.

He's like, oh, yeah, like don't worry if like you're not. into raves. Like I had an ex-girlfriend and I showed her raves and like she was so into it. And like he just, he just wants to change everyone into like his strong hobbies. Like no matter what you want to do. He's like, pickleball. Don't worry. You'll love it. Pickleball. Jetsky. He keeps talking about this ex-girlfriend throughout that. Go back and get her. That's what I'm saying. You guys, she reached out to me. Oh, I want to hear. Tell us. She reached out to me. I know. And like the pickleball stuff, none of that even came up because like it's all just so. It's so much deeper than that.

And like, she didn't watch the show. She just watched Decision Day and Reunion. And then so she finally knew what my decision was because she wasn't watching. We don't know each other. She's very low key. And so she needed to wait to like find out my decision before she reached out to me. Because I was trying to find her, but I only knew her first name. But like, it was really validating talking to her and she's so sweet.

And we have, we swapped notes and it's all the same. So what about the new girl? Oh, the new girl. Girl, yeah, haven't reached out to her. She hasn't reached out to me either. I have a feeling you'll be getting reached out to eventually. Yes. I'm like, girl, I'll be here when it's time.

Yeah, when it's time. You know where to party. It was kind of random to bring your girlfriend of three months to a taping of married at first sight was kind of... Yeah. Why do you think he brought her? I hate to say it, but I think it was his, like, master plan the whole time to, like, he was in a race to find someone to be able to bring them to the reunion because he knew he was, like, going to need somebody to, like, sit in the audience to vouch for him. And so he just found someone perfect timing, brought him and did not give her all the information.

And then yelled at Courtney. He yelled at Courtney. He took out his rage on me at Courtney. Can you please for us rank your icks with Adam? Oh, my God. And if you need help, I can remind you, maybe these aren't icks, but starting with the hats. The hats, the fits, the swim socks, the jet skis, the pickleball. The hat, I feel like is, like, number one for me right now because all I'm picturing is

him at the reunion, like, screaming, like, in his little hat. And I'm just like. And his sling. There's no coming back from that for me. And his sling. And so, no, he looked like he was like a grandma about to go garden or something. And I just, like, can't come back from that. And he's got osteoporosis and, like, broke his elbow.

See, hot take, Adam's new girlfriend already kind of hates him Because no one who loves another person would let him show up wearing that hat Like I know my wife loves me when I when I want to try something and she's like absolutely not And she said no, go on national television with that I can't say anything I did wear booty shorts as my hero shot so I'll sit this one out We'll forgive you for that one Yeah, we make bad decisions you know but like someone who loves you wouldn't let you do that

Yeah, I hope at least. Okay, so the hats is number one. Okay, so hats. And then, I think the jet ski was like the second one because it's like, what is this obsession? Like, shut up about the jet ski. Like, he brought it up at the wedding. And I'm like, oh, that's so cute. He doesn't know what to like talk to me about.

Like, he's so nervous. He has to talk about his jet ski. Or I forgot about the piano too. Oh, yeah. I was not to ask you about the piano. Was that as awkward as they made it seem? Yes. Okay, so they did a good job editing.

Yeah. Two one more. Have you seen friends? Are you guys, did you guys anyone here? Are my too old where Ross is like, they're like, come on, come on like play. He's like, no, no, no. He's like, all right, fine. You know, he's like, he just wants people to beg him to play.

It was like, it was so coded. Does the spamming of vibes make the top five? No. And yeah, this, the spamming of vibes does. And I like said to him, I was like, you have to explain like what vibes means because people have been asking you like, what do you mean by vibes? And then Sean, like, did the thing at dinner where he was just like, what do you mean by vibes? And I was like, thank you.

But, like, also use a different word. Did his vocabulary, like, kind of annoy the fuck out of you? Because I find myself getting annoyed at myself when I say period too much. And I'm like, be an adult. Like speak in actual not jinsey TikTok terms. Period. Period. No.

And it does. It did annoy me to an extent. But, like, I also did think it was funny for a while. But then when I watched it back, I was like, okay, this is not funny. I'm trying to figure out where does pickleball fall in this top five? Because I thought that would have been number one. At least it was for me. I wouldn't even describe pickleball as an ick.

I would just describe it as like a rage. Like I just. Yeah, the amount he talked about it, I think. It's honestly a lot to go through. It's a lot, like, literally and like metaphorically. But like. Like I signed up to be, you know, married and work on. a relationship and then I was thrown pickleball jets.

I was like, what is, what actually matters here? Sox got to be number one. Did he ever try to get you to wear swim socks? Did he ever try to get you to like, yo, this is why, this is what science says, like, you should be protecting your toes? No, because I know why he wore the swim socks. And so I just like let him go. And I was like, you're just drawing more attention to it.

Like don't wear the socks. Just don't do it. And he like wouldn't listen to me. Like I tried. Does he have like a fungal issue? He got bunions? No, it's not like a fungal thing, but like he skis a lot. So his ski boots like messed up his toenails and like they're all like, you know,

some are black and blue and shorter. It gets not that big of a deal. So I'm just like stop drawing attention to it. He got Hooper Feet. His wiki feet score isn't, it's not high. No. My initial thought was like, oh, he could paint his toenails. And then I'm like, wait, Mecca was out here painting his nails, which I know like it's kind

of trendy kind of a vibe, but did it catch you off guard the first time you saw it? Yeah, that was very interesting. When I first saw it, like, I've never dated a guy who painted their nails. So it was new for me. But in my mind, when I seen it, I was just like, okay, like, this can go a few ways with this. And I'm, he's giving me like maybe he's just like a centric and like a free spirit rock star type of vibe. So that's what I was getting from it. Like in the beginning, like that was my first impression. Like, again, I'm still going to, I'm going to accept them because I mean, I don't know. You know, you don't. You know, you don't. know what that means and I wanted to give it a chance. It was new. It definitely was new for me and it did catch me off guard. It was definitely a statement on his part. Bell, watching it back, what were your thoughts on hearing everything his dad had to say on wedding day? Absolutely insane. Absolutely insane. I was not expecting because like the impression I got at his dad was like, okay, he's like a, he likes the attention and the, you know, he likes he's overly like animated and all of this stuff because that conversation we had sitting down at the table, like, and we were just

talking, that was like the time that I could get a real like feel for his dad. I did. Had I known all of the comments beforehand, I think I definitely would have looked at him differently because it just was inappropriate and like just weird and weird to talk with your son like that. But I don't know the type of relationship that have, maybe that's your relationship. But to talk about a woman who you don't know in that manner was just like, wow, like it really started from wedding day with this whole little, just the, I don't know, just weird talk. Like, it started at wedding day. So it just, it let me see like, this makes a lot of sense. Like, this makes a lot of sense. I was about to say, it definitely showed like the apple didn't fall far from the tree when

yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, when we started hearing Mecca. talk about your appearance and your body. I mean, it's just like this. All of that. Clearly, you were taught that this is normal and this is okay to do with women. Exactly. And I think, too, like, he really cherishes his dad and what his dad says. And his dad, a lot of times says some BS.

So it just, it doesn't help. So, yeah, I think, I think his dad played a big, a huge part in how he operated throughout this whole season, honestly. When we walk to these reality TV shows, it's. it's as a man I don't know how you feel Jimmy but it's just like man it's just like where where's our representation who would have thought and maybe you women feel differently but like nick the reality TV star seemed to be the most normal and grounded male in your cast and who would have thought that going in you would have thought you know oh it's he's a reality tv guy he's going to be the goofiest

and most eccentric and here for the drama and he seemed to be the most normal man yeah yeah in the cast. Yes. Yes. Like I think, I mean, he's had, not only just experience, but I think his experience plays a big part in that as well. But I agree. Like, yeah, he was the most normal.

And I never saw Nick's other shows, but I don't know. I mean, I think he was like relatively normal to be on those shows. And then, you know, they're like, you're good for a marriage show. So it's like, that really is who he is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. But casting did their big one on this. They did.

It must be obviously just like agreeing to do the show scary. And like, you know, Mecca and Adam, you know, by their own right, they're handsome guys, right? So like I imagine, you know, obviously so much about this show is to like not to look past physical attraction. But, you know, physical attraction does matter. What were your initial just reactions about like how Adam and Mecca, you know, was there like, oh, wow, like, okay, you know, we're working with something here. Like, what was, how were you in feeling it on wedding day? I was like, thank God. And then I was like, okay, check.

Okay? And then we dealt with all the rest of it. And he started talking, yeah. Yeah, I think for me, what's so funny is, like, when I got to the owl, like, for one, I had a whole, like, panic attack before I came out. Like, and it was, it was really, really bad. So my nerves were just shot. So when I got to that aisle, I'm like, oh, and I'm making all these noises because, like, I was ridiculously nervous.

So when I saw him, I'm like, yeah, he's cute. Like, he was cute to me, so I'm not taking that from me. He was cute to me. But I think the way I reacted made it just like, oh, he is just the finest. And let me tell you all something. I'm coming from Georgia. I have seen several fine men. Okay, so I was just like, oh, my gosh.

Like, no, I was dead nervous. Like, nerves were shot. But just, like, first impression, like, he was cute. He was cute to me. cute. He was a cuteie. But was he cute enough for you? I know. Get into it. Great with that one, Marissa. Yeah, I mean, because that's just like a crazy comment to even think to answer that. Like, was he

cute enough for me? Like, I don't know. He was cute. He was cute to me. I'll say that. He was cute. You and Adam said no on Decision Day, but then continued to kind of see each other afterwards. How close do you feel like you got to trying again? Oof. It was like three days. Okay. it was done. Because, I mean, he was shooting off DMs while he was standing there

after we, like, said the words divorce. And so I was like, go off, can't get back to the streets. Like, you're divorced, but then don't try to, like, see me afterwards, please. Like, just cut me loose. How did you notice that he was in the DMs already? So I had gone to, like, a pregame for a Halloween party. And the first girl that I'm talking to at the first party

that I'm at after this crazy experience has DMs from him. and I'm like, okay, this is, one, the universe looking out, and it's two, that's just surely how many girls he's hitting up. Had the show been out? Like, how did she know you were with him? I was just talking to her about, you know, I was, you know, just got off the show and blah, blah, blah. And she's like, wait, what's his last name? And I'm like, oh, here we go. So she like, pulls up the DMs. She said, hey, girlie. Yes, she said, hey girlie. she like let me screenshot all the messages and like just blow it up yeah did he slide in with one of his that was it pickleball was it jet ski was it what like i need to know yeah so they had been talking

before the show a little bit and his his first messages to her were hey will you actually come over to my house so that you can drive my jet ski and pull me so i can wakeboard the craziest thing no are you serious bro what what is so i can wakeboard yeah Yo, he's just trying to find a chauffeur. He's not trying to find a wife. Yeah, exactly. I was about to say, he wants a buddy, not a wife. Does he own that house or does he rent it?

He rents it. He rented that house and he was thinking, I'm going to get laid. I mean, he bought that house his like hookup pad. Chick Magnet. And he was just like, I got a lake house. And there's like ice picks in the roof. And I'm like, you're bringing girls back here in the middle of the night with ice picks in the roof to this, like, cabin. I was like, how is this working? Did you ever stay the night

there? No, I never did. Yeah, too spooky. Mecca apologized to you at the reunion bell, and it came off to me very much like he had rehearsed and practiced this script. Did it feel genuine to you in the moment? No, I think, and I think, and sometimes it does take people time, you know, to get there, but just I was, I wasn't. shocked that he played defense almost the whole reunion for the most part. I kind of knew it was going to go one or two ways. Either he's going to wave his white flag immediately or he's going to play defense. And I was disappointed to see that you're still deflecting and playing defense. And then you have to apologize. And it was the same pattern of like what I dealt with the whole season. So no,

I don't think it was genuine. And I think the reason and I don't think it was genuine is because of the patterns. I think I wanted to give it a chance to like, like, Let me see because maybe he really means it. And you know what I'm saying? But it's just kind of hard to gauge at this point because I don't trust him at all. So I don't think anything that comes out of his mouth, it just goes in one ear out the other. Like I don't even, I don't take it in or take it to heart anymore. Like so it just was like, that's why I kind of gave.

I paid the apology dust. Well, when you and Mecca were in the hot tub and you addressed his comments. And I honestly thought in that moment, it was like, okay, he seems to, it's like he's, He's processing it. He was that denial. I didn't say that. Then he kind of owned it. I was like,

all right, good for you, Mecca. Yes. And then there's this scene following it where he's with the boys. And he's kind of owning what he said. And then they had this whole conversation about like,

what's your physical body type? What did you women make of that conversation? And how did you? No, I wanted to freak out. It's actually because it was Adam asking the question. This is tight. I'm watching and be like,

oh, no. Oh, no. This is going to be bad. So everyone was, like, giving Adam props for, like, grilling Mecca. And I was like, what? How dare Adam try to suggest that somebody go under the knife, put their life at risk so that mecca can, like, be attracted to you? Like, that's insane.

Are we serious right now? Like, what are we talking about? I was pissed. Yeah. Like, yeah, it was, it was an insane comment. I think it was very childish. Like, it was so immature. sure, even be having a conversation like that because that was the crazy part that was getting

me about that whole conversation, you do no two can play that game, right? Like, if I were had to do that same thing, it would not, it would not have been good, which is why I was constantly staring Mecca because I see how sensitive he is behind closed doors. I've already seen how Mecca reacts to me, you know, getting on him and stuff. So I told myself, you know what, I would hate for somebody to make me feel that way. So let me make sure I talk to Mecca a certain type of way to get through to him because he's very sensitive. But then for you to be that sensitive and to go and talk like that was just like, it was beyond me because two can really play that game if I wanted to, but I think that's childish

to sit here and list off all of the things that I don't like about you. Like, we're trying to work towards something. I'm trying to focus on the good things and you're not helping. Like, you're not helping here. Yeah, it was disappointed how easy it was for. For him, no, like immediately. For him to, like, engage in that conversation. Like, bro, you just apologize.

You should have been like, no. Like, I'm not, it's, it was crazy. We just told people at the dinner table that we were saying yes, at Decision Day. Like, what are we doing right now? Like, this was so crazy. It was just, it was mind blowing. And I think that's when, like, everything started hitting me, like, was at that retreat of, like, okay, Bill. Like, what are we doing here?

Because this is just, like, one too many at this point. And that's what I mean by, like, boundaries on my part. Like, it just was just crazy. And I don't think I've ever, and dare I say it, I hate to say this, but going into this experience, like, I didn't realize that I was kind of getting, because like the, not even just the dating scene of where I live, like in Seattle, Portland area, not even just the dating scene, but just people in general, they're a lot different than how they are in Georgia of, like, what I'm used to.

So, like, my self-confidence was already getting tapped on a little bit, and I didn't realize it. It was, like, subconscious. So then to go into this and this happened, like, dare I say it, like, Mecca was definitely tapping into, like, my self-confidence and, like, my self-esteem. And it's kind of like this mind game of where you really do think, like, this is as good as it gets, you know? And it was like a manipulation thing for me.

You know what I'm saying? So I, yeah, it was there. Did you feel like in the moment when Adam asked, do you think she can get to that physique? And he said, not here, not here. Do you think that was him being, like, so. aware of the cameras and like not wanting to say it on camera? It was like yes, but no, it's almost like I really don't know what his thought process was of doing that because I don't know if he didn't think he was going to get caught, but dude,

it's on camera. Like it's on camera. Like you could have just said like physically she's not my type, you know, in certain, you know, and not even in certain errors. Like you do not have to specify. So again, I just, I've seen all of his dad in that. moment. It just was like, this is, this is definitely your dad, because it's just ridiculous. But my thing is just like, you're giving me two different versions of you. Like, you're,

talking like that. And don't get me wrong, he's made crazy comments to my face. But behind closed doors, like, he's so loving and making my bath water and doing all this. So now I have to question it's all of that performative. Like, you're performing to me behind closed doors as well. Because what is, what is this? And it's like, the person I was with in the show was my biggest op. That's the crazy thing. He was my biggest op. You said Tuka play that game, but there's also another game that he was

fake playing with Devin's girl. And you kind of brought it up at the reunion that if you want to, we could play that game too. You said Devin, come, come. Devin come. And I meant every word of that. Because in that moment,

in that moment, like, a lot of that stuff I did not see. So I didn't know that they went outside and had a whole I didn't even know that happened. I don't know where I was. Me and Marissa were probably somewhere taking shots. Who knows? I don't know.

I know. But I don't remember either. Yes, I was not there for that. The only thing that I seen with my own eyes, because even the kiss in the hand, like, I wish I would have brought that up at reunion because I don't know where my antennas were, but me and Caitlin were, like, having a conversation in the midst of that happening. So I didn't even see that. The only thing that I seen was the chain going around the neck. So to watch it back. Yeah, it was crazy.

And to watch it back, it was just like, wow. Like, and again, it took me a while. Me and Marissa talk about this all the time of how, like, we wish all of the girls could have been closer throughout this season. And it took me a while to really get to a place where I could, like, feel like I can be comfortable with the girls and trust the girls. So then to watch that, it just was like, bro, what is, what is this? Like, what is this? And I really met that because Devin, like, throughout the whole, me and Devin are friends, by the way.

Like, we are friends, but throughout the whole experience. he would stand up for me, like every time with Mecca. He would always tell Mecca like, you're tripping, y'allah. Like, we created a friendship. So that's what made me even more comfortable to say that. And I probably would have said even if I didn't know Devin like that or we didn't talk like that, I still would have said that at reunion because honestly and truthfully, I think that's what I wanted people to understand, like, as in Caitlin and Mecca,

like, if I wanted to play that game, I could have. I'm intentionally choosing not to play that game. It's not, this is not an accident. Like, if I wanted to take it there, I could have. And I chose not to because it's not really my character to be like that. But if we're going to play a game, like, just let me know what game we're playing. So I can play too. I love that.

Where do you and Caitlin stand today? I will always have love for Caitlin. I think I love Caitlin. I think, you know, just that when it comes to me in friendships, I hold those very dearly and I cherish those. it did trample with the trust a little bit. And me and Caitlin have talked about that. Like, I don't know. I mean, I love her and I love all of the girls because of this experience we all went through.

It's very special to us. And we're the only ones that went through this experience in that way. So again, the love for Caitlin will always be there, which is why I meant when I said, when I said I love her at reunion. But just as far as like how close me and her would be, yeah, I don't know. to be honest, I don't know because I just, I don't, I don't, I'm not close with friends who, who move like that. And I don't even know what your intentions were of, of doing that. You know what I'm saying? Even though it was a year ago, and it's not about holding a grudge. It's just, once you show me,

you know, something, it's just like, I don't know. I don't know what to do at this point, you know, but I love her. I love her to piece. So it's nothing to talk, not bashing her at all. I love her. And yeah, that's all I can say. I know why I said that Nick seemed like, the only, like, decent guy. But Devin seemed like a... Devin seemed all right, right? Like, he seemed like a, you know... And I wouldn't have guessed that initially, you know,

kind of has this kind of interesting look. He's like, kind of, you know, he's what is, like a... Rugby player. Like rugby player. I don't understand the sunglasses on his head, on his wedding day, and at reunion. But he didn't make it his own personal brand. He said he forgot.

On his wedding day or at reunion? Or both? Oh, yeah, right. Probably both. wedding day he forgot. I think reunion was a statement. A callback. Yes, a call back. It seems like you both were on the receiving end of guys who maybe perceive themselves differently than they actually are. I think when they met with the matchmakers, they probably said, well, I value this, but it's not the most important thing. Come to find out they weren't honest about what they really needed in a relationship,

which are some pretty bizarre asks. Do you guys feel like, if you were to do this again, do you feel like you were honest when you met with the matchmakers about your non-negotiables or did this teach you things where you're like, no, actually I need somebody who's X, Y, and Z? And would you change the way you approach that conversation? Good question. I was extremely strict in my, you know, questionnaire of like what I was giving, because I was like, I'm not walking down the aisle in a white dress to, and like, I'm not going to be set up. So I'm like, I'm like not going on this show if it's, if I'm not being 100% honest. And so, you know, they add them on paper does look good.

So it was, you know, it was interesting to learn. So I think I need to be a little bit more specific in my emotional intelligence requirements. I feel like I went in there with the pretty strict. I ran a pretty strict program when it came to what I wanted. I think when I talked to the experts, I don't think I have any regrets in that area. I think I was, yeah, I don't have any regrets. grades in that area. Well, follow up to that, would you let the experts match you again? I would give them one more chance. Yeah, I think I would give them one more chance. Are we sick in the

head for that? I know. Are we? Like, I don't know. I just feel like now it has to be up from here. It's an imperfect science, you know? The bar has been set pretty low. You guys can only do better now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why I said, I feel like now that the experts kind of got an idea of how the first time went, maybe that, okay, so we know Marissa, we know Bell, we can, you know, it might be a little better than next time, who knows, but I don't plan on another season of Meredith Forsyth, so who knows? We had an opportunity to interview Sean. It was a trip. What was it like to experience Sean in real life? And do you feel like he had an accurate edit? This one's tough because we, the cast did not hang out that much outside of group dinners.

And so when we saw everyone in a group. Jenner's, you know, it's hard to gauge everyone because it's, we don't know who's being performative, who's doing, you know, like what's, what is happening? Who are these people? And so, you know, when I saw the edit back, I was like, that's crazy. And so I think, yeah, I didn't get a good gauge of him during filming. Were you as blown away by the mutual masturbation ask? That was. My jaw was on the floor for like 20 minutes. I like had to stop watching. I was like, oh my God. What did I? just here. Seriously, jaw was on the floor, and I was, where was I, like, in an office or something

when I seen that part of my phone? I'm like, no way. Like, there's no way he said that. Oh, are we being serious? So, yeah, I was, but if I'm being honest, I was shocked that he, that's something like that came out of his mouth. I think as time went on, I started getting a feel for Sean. Like, even though we didn't, we didn't hang out as much outside of dinners, the more

more he talked and the more you sit back and kind of just observe and allow someone to keep talking, you can kind of just be like, something just wasn't right with him. Something wasn't right. So that, I wasn't shocked. I was, but I wasn't at the same time. What's next for you, ladies? So I'm launching a professional matchmaking app like next week. Oh, fun.

Because I was shown my ex-husband as most compassionate. on a dating app after Hickey dinner. And I was like, what are these apps? No, like, we have the technology. There's no way this has to keep happening. So, yeah, I kind of turned this into my passion project this year to single-handedly fix what's going on. Are you able to give the name or what can you share?

Yeah, it's called parallel name to be determined, but that's what I'm launching it as. And so, yeah, it's, you know, a longer questionnaire and really matches you well. So you know what you're getting into with matches. And there's not so many matches. So it's not like frying your brain and like, oh, I can, you know, just keep swiping endlessly. So it's really, I'm really excited to launch it. And I hope it goes well. That's awesome.

Congratulations. That's really cool. I might get back on apps now. Hold on now. Yeah. Well, only one app. Just get this one. on the app.

Sean was working on a secret tell-all. He couldn't tell any people about it, which I was like, bro. Are you talking about the book? I don't know. He came on. He's like, well, I'm doing a tell-all. I can't really tell. I'm like, bro, you're like, just.

What's he going to tell? How about you, Belle? For me, I'm going to be doing what I was doing before the season, continuing to work on music. I have some more dropping on my birthday. Actually, October 3rd, I'll be dropping a single. And I promise it's not going to sound as bad as that. studio session did because my voice is gone, so don't hold that against me. But I will be dropping

that as well as I'm going to do, I was trying to keep this, but I'll talk about it because it's already in the work. So I'm going to drop like basically a beauty line. Okay. But it's going to be a beauty line for men and women. So it'll be all types of like makeup and skincare and everything you can think of out, you know, under the sun when it comes to like hygiene and stuff like that. So I'll be dropping that as well and honestly just continuing with the modeling and the you know the dancing. I just like to say I'm an artist. Like I try to just sum that all up by continuing my career as an artist on top of like launching that as well. So yeah. These men will forever have to realize how much they fumbled, you two ladies. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's really quite remarkable how

much they mess it up. Oh, can we talk about the Hickey Quick before we let you go? Yeah, love it. It's my favorite story to tell. Just from your perspective, what, give us the, what was that whole experience like? I just like, it was probably the worst experience of my life with a guy. And I, my soul, like, did truly leave my body when, because I'm like, eye to eye with this hickie because our heights are just like that. And I'm standing there. Like, there's no way he is standing there with a hickie right now, like taking me to dinner. And. I was like, fight or flight, what do I do I do? Do I stay or do I go? And so I just stayed because I was like, this is the last time I'm going to see this guy. And I said my piece. We like, you know, it was not a fun dinner. It was very just like tumultuous. And I call him on it at the end of dinner. And he just immediately starts to gaslight. And he's like, what? And I'm like, how do you even know what side it's on? Like, exactly. You know it's there. And it's the middle of winter. He's wearing a crew neck. Didn't he try to say it was from pickleball? Yeah, he's like, I'm just covered in bruises all the time. And I'm like, it's from a pickleball.

It's from a pickleball. That's what he should have said, honestly. Hickies and bruises look nothing alike. Nothing alike. And then he proceeded to show me a picture of the girl who gave him the hikki. He did? That's crazy. Yes.

He's so different, yo. He's so different. That's what leads me to believe, like, he's just so insecure. And he's like, yeah, I can get girls and like, whatever. And I'm just like, whatever. Wait, how did he come to show you the photo? Was he like, all right, fine. Like, and this is who did it?

You know what, actually? You caught me. Check her out, though. This is who bruised me. Right, like what? Insanity. Like, he is dressed on a different level. And he showed me actually multiple girls.

And they were all just like, blonde and skinny. And I was like, great, that looks nothing like me. So. Jimmy, can I say he's so different is like the nicest dig. It's so good. You know, it's like, he's so. He's so different. He's a different lad.

What a classy way. I don't get him. I'm summing him up. Ladies, thanks so much for coming. Sorry that you had to experience this, but you ladies cared yourself remarkably, and I'm glad you all survived this experience, and it seems like you're better for it.

Congrats on the things that you ladies are working on, and I hope it brings you much success. But, yeah, it was fun to watch. Thanks for the great TV. Sorry you had to do what you dealt with. You ladies really handled yourself well. And just from a viewer standpoint, you guys, you crushed it. You should have no regrets.

I hope you feel that way. Thank you so much. We appreciate you guys. Thank you. Thank you for having us on. This was fun. Yes. Thank you so much, you guys.

Bye, y'all. Take care. Bye. Bye. All right, bye-bye.