The Viall Files - E1187 - Conscious Parenting With Dr. Shefali, RHONY Premiere, RHOSLC Recast & Pumpkin Spice Lattes

Episode Date: September 10, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Clinical psychologist, and New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Shefali joins the show to discuss her books Raising Conscious Daughters and Raising Conscious Sons, as well as raising children in a modern age. Before that, we get into the RHONY premiere (good!), RHOSLC potential recasts (tea!), fall drinks (yum!), ethical non-monogamy (what even is that?), and more!  You won't want to miss it! "Pitch your brother to me…" Nick is on Substack! Subscribe here: https://nickviall.substack.com/subscribe  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: ASPCA: To explore coverage, visit https://aspcapetinsurance.com/viall  Helix: Go to https://helixsleep.com/viall for their 2026 Labor Day Sale of UP TO 30% OFF. Superhuman: Find out more at https://superhuman.com  Minky Couture: Head to https://minkycouture.com, use code VIALL at checkout for 50% off all full-priced items, and get into the BEST. BLANKET. EVER. Wayfair: Join Wayfair Rewards today and get five percent back on every purchase. Head to https://wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Timestamps: 0:00 - Intro 13:20 - Ultimate Girls Trip Recap 26:02 - RHONY Premiere Recap 39:45 - SLOMW 41:07 - Bachelorette Season Rumors 44:03 - Double Lives Of Suburban Wives Recap 1:01:33 - Doctor Shefali Joins 1:27:05 - Outro Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nataliejoy @doctorshefali @ciaracrobinson @susiecevans @justinkaphillips @the_mare_bare @baybaeee

What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Valfiles Reality Recap Edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my wonderful, caring, sensitive, great mom-wife. Thank you. I was just reading a text from Jess Fesel. That was so nice regarding our Harry Jowsey interview. It was. I got a text from Jess Fesel this morning, and I was just like, oh, shit, fuck.

I know. I felt that way when I saw that she commented on the sizzle and was like, Harrison, if you didn't keep this any laugh. And I was like, oh! Anyways, she was very gracious. And she said she enjoyed it and appreciated the conversation. So if you haven't listened to the Harry Jelze interview. Yeah, it was fun. It was fun.

It was, you know, I didn't think we'd ever see the day. Was it healing? I don't think anyone in that conversation cared all that much, which is what I think I think I think I appreciate it about the most. Because I think in the conversation of Harry's messiness, there was like a recognition in a conversation about like this is I don't know whatever this is that we do

and like we participate in it you know by covering the show obviously I've been in that world you know and it's you know it's it's by definition like a narcissistic kind of like we you know it's like we talk about ourselves and it can get messy

but like anyways I appreciate the realness about I also think him having his own podcast now really made him like realize that when we were covering him on these shows it was just us, like, doing our job. And I think he sees that now because he's doing that with other shows. But it is always nice to bury a hatchet, so to speak.

For sure. So often, especially in this world, it's just like sometimes you feel like, I think I'm fighting with someone. I don't even know why, you know? Yeah. Like, it's like we're just, like, trained to go from zero to one hundred right now. You, like, see that someone that you thought you were cool with likes a post that's, like, hating on you. And you're like, I guess I have to hate them.

I don't know. you're mad at me okay um and so often when we feel like people are mad at us what are what what's our response you know you mad back at it you know and it's just like and so when you have the opportunity and sometimes we see uh with our housewives uh shout out ultimate girls trip which i'm excited to talk about um yeah that's a it's it's like you know i had so many other things to care about i'm glad this is one less thing i have to like be bothered by but anyway it's a fun conversation And I think you get to probably, I don't know, like, I think it was a really honest point of view from Harry's, whether you agree or disagree with how he thinks and how he moves. I think he was pretty honest with his answers.

So yeah, it was fun. Check it out. My general question I would post to the audience as far as Harry Jousy and his dating future. I hope he, he's in a relationship. He's really happy. I hope it works out for him. But it's always the question at what point do you become responsible for, like, giving someone like Harry a chance, you know? And at what point are people around you?

I mean, obviously, your closest people, whoever your people are who is like, whatever decision you make, I guess I have to have your back. But outside of those people, how much are people supposed to care if you want to be the one to change them, so to speak? And it's an interesting question. That is.

I think my friends would be sick of my ass if I brought a hairy, jowsy home. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's the one where they're like, bitch, I can't hear it again. You know, like, you got to move on. They're like at this point, like, I'm, you're doing it to yourself.

So anything you need to complain about, find somewhere else. Find your therapist. You can't start any type of story with. You'll never believe because yes, we will. We will. Yeah. And we know. And on some level when we say to ourselves, listen, I just, I want to decide for myself

who they are by getting to know them. Right off the bat, you're being like, I'm special. Yeah. And, you know, like you just reckon that. You know, we live, we've all done it. I want to show you how stupid I am. So I am going to date this man. Not that we're calling anyone who's ever dated Harry Jaws.

We've been that person. But it's an interesting question. And Harry has given us the opportunity to pose that question. I struggle. Like as an empath, like I struggle because I genuinely at my core. I'm like, I want to believe and I do believe people change, people grow. And it makes for dating really hard because you give opportunities to some wild. the characters. Yeah, but the thing, you know, we talk about this a great deal on Plus, but the thing

about empathy, listen, I'm a better person for over the years learning how to be more empathetic to everyone around me, including my partner and my kids and, you know, like, I'm definitely better. But empathy is one of those things that is just so easily weaponized against us. It's also one of those things that's so easy us to be performative because it makes us feel good. Yeah. And we need our line. And like, you know, the Lindsay, Clancy of it. Like, we have lost the line. And at some point, like, I'm an empath. You know what I'm saying? Because I'm better for it. But like, at some point, where's our line of like just being like, nah, we got to hold that person accountable? Trying to find it. Whether it's the person, whether the person we date or, you know, these people in the news.

Anyways, check out the Harry Jousie interview if you haven't already. I think we talked about it last week. But can I, it's fall. We're up at the lake. The season. are changing. Spice pumpkin latte's or what are they called? Not it. Pumpkin spice. Spice. Spice lattes and also is it fall? The PSL. I thought fall is not to like September 22nd or something. 24th? I think it's end of September. No. Yeah, it's end to September.

Fall begins when Starbucks says begins as someone who used to work there. For me I'm like I guess it's when Halloween Horror Nights starts and it's now September. Or when CVS starts setting out those skeletons, mama. CBS is crazy. I was there yesterday. I had to pick up my medication. So true.

Question, mayor. There's a former barista at Starbucks. Oh, let's go. In adult life, only a couple years ago, isn't the difference between a latte and a cappuccino just the ratio of milk or like all the various? Well, it's a foam, right? So for a cappuccino, what you're doing is you're going to, like,

it's the way you're steaming the milk. well you're steaming the milk you're basically like foaming the milk so with a cappuccino it's I forget the exact ratio because it's been a while but I believe it's like 70% foam to 30% milk and then you have the same amount of espresso or you can have an extra dry cappuccino where it's like all like pretty much all foam but then a latte you only like basically what you're doing is you're steaming the milk and then you bring it out and it just gives you like a little bit of like that thing on top that's supposed to just do that's where you get your latte art I was trying to do your hand gestures so that they could see because you were

it was helpful for me to see the hand gestures but she's off cam it's basically like either your foaming milk or your steaming milk and if you foam it it's a cappuccino I don't know what I'm making for my wife for myself we have one of those wonderful brevel machines and it has all the settings but I do know how to fill up the beans stack them I do know how to brew that and I do know how to press the steam milk whatever button

and out comes hot milk with I mix with espresso and it's solid but we're up at the lake and for all the vanilla latte people out there do I have a drink for you we talked about this already but I think we need to repeat it we need to repeat it okay um it's super simple Natalie is a vanilla latte girl hot or cold

often cold and we didn't have vanilla syrup up here at the lake so instead you brew the espresso you brew the espresso it's hot you mix in I would say about a teaspoon a tablespoon a tablespoon excuse me of brown sugar And then you put a generous amount of honey and you mix that in the hot espresso. And then you put that in a glass.

You put some ice cubes on it if you're going to go cold. And then you pour the milk on it. And it's according to my wife. I even tried it. It's pretty good. And it's simple to make. And it doesn't have, you know, it's healthier ingredients. Honey.

Not a ton of additives. Have you ever made Natalie a shaken espresso? It's pretty easy. I think she would love that. Can you move to a shaken? Does he just need to put it in one of those drink shakers and shake it out? Yeah, you just need to put, if you have like any sort of martini shaker, it's what you do at Starbucks or like any sort of place. You just put, you'll put the espresso, whatever sort of like syrup or whatever in the shaker with ice, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, pour it.

And then you pour the, like, milk over it and it just looks really pretty and it tastes really good. It does look really pretty. This drinks would probably be good in the shaking. Yeah. Yeah. Because the honey, I think, kind of sometimes sits on the bottom a little bit. Mm-hmm. Up at the lake, we've really curated.

Like, my dream, like, it's kind of the middle of nowhere of this beautiful scenery. It's quiet. It's slow. It's great to entertain. But, like, in between, it's just a lot of great eating. And I love to cook. And we obviously invested in a nice kitchen. And my mom up here has perfected baking in a level that's.

She's got the bread, like, unmatched, right? And so she does, obviously, the sourdough. Last night, we had homemade pizza. And she did the dough. She also did cheesy crazy bread. Yep. What the? That was insane.

She's making homemade cinnamon rolls, homemade chocolate. You know how Nick got me the Rollericks for my birthday, right? So I was like, his birthday is right around the damn corner. And how do you follow up a roller? It's impossible. You know what I'm saying? I hate gifts in both directions. It just becomes a problem.

But Sierra, as you know, I make it so incredibly easy for Nick, right? Like he's got the wish list. He's got my friends. He's got so many people who are like, hey, get her this, get her that. Nick, nobody. Not to say that he doesn't have friends, but he doesn't have a list. And he's got nothing. And I have no idea how do you follow up a Rolex with like what, like a piece of luggage, like a suitcase?

You know, how do you do it? And so I thought. She offered to buy me a Rolex. I said no. No, I thought maybe this is the birthday that I steal some of his sweet mother's starter. and start making sourdough at home. Aw. Wow.

I think if that keeps on giving. I have concerns. The gesture is wonderful, but I don't want my gift to be something she has to do. Like a work every morning. Like, this damn birthday gift. I don't know.

I feel like there's an expert. I feel like. It's been 100 and full years. And then her next birthday will come around and I'll be in a bad mood. And then Victoria will be like, what are you getting Nally for her birthday? And I'll be like,

She's not even making me sourdough anymore. Literally. Literally. Because I don't want to like spend money on a gift. I'm not going to lie. I feel like the sourdough from Natalie would be like one and done for like that's enough. I feel like you can just make one loaf. We can go to a what do they call a farmer's market?

A bakery. No. No. No. No. No. No. One really nice, like thoughtful made with love loaf and a nice handwritten note.

I can score his initials in the top of it. Yeah. Yeah. Once enough. She can make it a Rolex of... Look at the whole past year. Yeah. I can score Rolls on top of it.

Yeah. She'll make it while... Well, maybe she won't make it while she's wearing her Rolex. But, you know... The Rolex of Loves. She'll serve it while wearing the Rolex. And then the starter can just sit in our fridge for some time. Forever until your mom comes.

Yeah. Starved. Yeah. Ball's here. Cute. So what do you want for your birthday, Nick? Yeah. Here we go.

I already told my wife she can't repeat it, no. I just want to relax. He said he wanted to be left alone. You guys know what? My mom used to always infuriate me. I did not say left alone. I would ask her.

My mom, I would always ask her what she went for Christmas, her birthday, and she would say what her mom would say, which was peace of mind. And that used to always infuriate me. But now that I'm older, I'm like, no, loki, I get it. Yeah.

I read this morning, not to get things dark, but like this, you know. Oh, boy. AI, interesting stuff. It's super helpful. But like, there is... I wish there was a camera in the bathroom when this conversation was happening.

By the way, with me, guys. I think I saw the same thing. I don't even know what you're going to say, but I'm pretty sure I started today off. I should probably just not. If my wife is any level of our audience. He's like, oh, the world's ending because of AI. And here I am doing my lip liner.

Right? I'm doing my lip liner in the mirror. And he's like got the shower door open trying to talk to me about how the world's ending. And I was like, you're fogging up the mirror. I cannot see my lips. You got to shut the door. And then after that, he just stayed silent.

And I was like, okay, that worked. Anyways. Yeah. Anyways, some serious people are worried about. Happy fall, y'all. And, you know, happy fall. Happy fall. Ultimate Girl Shrap, I was so enamored by this conversation.

What I thought I'm tuning in for just a nostalgic ride down memory lane. It was some really fascinating stuff. because the ladies of Salt Lake City were here. Mm-hmm. Were they ever? Messy. Really taking over. Obviously, Lisa has been, like, you know, on the ultimate girls' trip, but her peers showed up.

And it's so fascinating because, like, my first question watching was, who's producing this, right? Because you have all these different production companies producing different housewife franchises, different decision makers. It's chat media, the same producers of Salt Lake City. And the way that, like, it was so meta because, like, what has Heather's main criticism been, that she's a producer pet, right? that she is like driving conversations

and she has benefited from this by being shown in this positive light on the show. And her star has really risen. And then you hear you have like Lisa Barlow and like these group of women just chilling out, right? Like what's awesome about ultimate girls trip

is you're seeing these women as human beings more as humans and less as characters. You know, in a way that's just kind of like, okay, you know what? Like they are just, they are real people too. And that's been fun to watch. And then insert like the Salt Lake City Women who like the way they're shooting it, it looks like they're breaking the fourth wall.

It feels like they're breaking the fourth wall in a way that it feels like I'm watching them do a scene because then you have the other housewives who are like on like vacation, having fun, like observing the Salt Lake City Housewives because it's like a different universe but like kind of in the same multiverse or whatever the fuck you want to call it. And in a way that, like, it, it, it, it, it, it looks bad. And it looks, and it, it seems like shed media. Like, that's why I was like, oh, is it a different production company? Are they, like, taking the liberty?

And I'm always curious at what level are the decision makers at Bravo overseeing all these decisions? Or is this kind of happening on a case-by-case basis? Because it's this kind of, like, the thing that the fans criticize Heather Ford that we all wondered, in this episode, she, it looks like the network is like, exposing her as like someone who's this like dead set on like starting fights and throwing her peers under the bus and starting shit that does and you have the other housewives being like that shit's fucking mean what are you doing we're on fucking vacation and I was just like that's that was some wild that was I was not expecting that ride for ultimate girl's trip you have Teresa who's

literally called somebody a prostitution horror looking at Heather being like the stuff she's saying about her face is mean and it ruins lives. Well, yeah, and it's interesting coming from Tristan with somebody who's gone to jail. The false accusation of her having a facelift will ruin her life. No, but I'm like, I agree. I was like, Heather was doing the most.

And it's interesting because it kind of, as you said, where I'm like seeing all these housewives apparently feel like they're on vacation. And then, and even like Candace and Porsche, right? Like they clearly have real drama. But like, Porsche's like, I'm not doing a scene. I'm not on my franchise. This is not what's happening.

so goodbye. Whereas, Heather, I was like, this is your real life. Like, you know what I mean? Like, sometimes it's so easy as an audience member to be like, oh, they're doing a scene, they're putting it on. And whether they are, whether they're not, it's just like, this seems like Heather 24-7, like, where it's like, you're in this amazing place. If you're not sucking up to Luanne, then you're just ready to attack Lisa Barlow and create a scene in front of all of these housewives at a nice party. And it's like, we're not in Salt Lake City anymore. That's the interesting thing. You know, and again, kind of threading it back to the Harry. It's just like, I think some of these some of us some people who go on these shows are able to separate work in reality yeah and

some people aren't you know and it's just like we're up at the lake we had some we had friends up it was so much fun you know now obviously neli shared some moments but like you know when i get in my head and i think about like like you know the end of the world i'm just like we had this whole amazing weekend most of which we didn't like film and put on content that like no one will know about it won't you know what I'm saying as far as people who follow us and and and enjoy what we we share in post which we appreciate like they had no idea about this amazing connecting weekend we had with friends and we got the gossip about like what's going on in their neighborhood they had no idea that I can still do a backflip yeah um I did like no one knows about it and those are you know and those

are like that those are the memories that we have and it was just so like disconnected from like what we do for work and yada yada and it's I think some people in this universe can never turn it off. Right. You know, and that's kind of crazy. Well, they are casting for season eight already of Salt Lake City, even though season seven hasn't aired yet.

Like this came from... The blogs, I bet. Or was it an official post being like, we're casting? No, this is like an official casting post. I imagine the discourse created from it. It's just like, oh my God. No, it's like a casting. There's a casting.

account looking for people for Salt Lake actively. Yeah, but I imagine there's people online being, oh, who was so bad? Who are they replacing? You know, who's on, you know, it's fun to talk about that. I also imagine they cast every season. I think my knee-jerk reaction is more so like, was it so bad that people are quitting? You know, like I think that there's, I don't know, it's very tumultuous. And I think even seeing how this kind of played out on the girls trip where it's like,

Like this, like, some people can't get out of the loop. Like, even being on like a one-off show, like The Bachelor, like sometimes it affects your life for years. And I'm like, I can't imagine being wrapped up season after season. But maybe my thought is like, who did somebody quit? And then you're Heather DeBrow, who we had on Tuesday's episode. And she, you know, we talked about obviously her 10 years as a housewife. But she reminded us that she started like 15 years ago and took a four year break. And she made the joke, you know, I was never really out out. But like maybe, you know, if you're if you're like braw in, and your divorce goes through, no pre-na, by the way. And you're like, you know, you're good money-wise. And you did this housewife season for, what, three, it'll be a third or four season. And she's gotten that, you know, excitement, that buzz, that notoriety, that kind of individual identity. She's got money.

She, you know what I'm saying? Like, she could easily take a break, maybe decide to come back and be like, you know what? She can move off of that notarie on her own, you know, with her access to power and her, you know, she's got friends. Like, if you're Browen, it would make a lot of sense if you're just like, I don't need you. You know, like, it's too much.

I got what I needed out of it, but I'm going to take a break. And then maybe come back. I just think I need Salt Lake City to have like a different type of shakeup where I'm like, I loved when Bronwyn was added. I loved when Brittany was added. But I'm just like, I think with the core group when it comes to like Whitney, Heather, Lisa, leave Meredith out of this. But like, just even the three of them, I'm just like the, and Angie.

the toxicity of how much they make each other's lives, each other's storylines, and it never ends where I'm like, we just got the reboot of New York. I thought it was a fantastic premiere. And I'm like, even the, uh,

sigh and Jessel of becoming best friends out of nowhere, that whole and everyone being like, how, how? I love that shit. I love that during time that the cameras were rolling and the last time I saw you from the time that you guys pick back up and I'm getting to see it,

life has happened. And like, you've forgiven and forgotten and moved on. And that's what I want to see. New storyline. Yeah, like three women hating the same woman for the last three years. It is important to note that the casting group did do this last season for Salt Lake. So this is not something new that's happening.

I think this is something casting does. They're always looking for someone great. But it's like they're still talking about the circle jerks. And it's like you've got, like to Sierra's point, like we've got to get some new material here. We can't keep like talking about the same stuff that y'all thought about. It has been the most popular franchise recently. So, you know. Listen, and I think it's great.

And I think the casting is great. But in like, there needs to be some form of shakeup because again, like Lisa Barlow being the talk of the town, whether it's, you know, blow jobs for jazzy's one season, the next second, her husband's, you know, doing things on text messages, whatever. Like, it's just like it's too much of a takedown constantly year after year on one or two people, Meredith as well, that it's just like I'm tired of it. I either need you guys to be able to talk about somebody else and bring that. into it or like have more things going on but just you know and even that Lisa did disappoint me

this episode of Ultimate Girls Trip who is uh before you get to that Sierra who of the Salt Lake City cast if you're doing a shakeup in your mind is untouchable oh untouchable I don't marry Mary I was gonna say like I don't know this is a thing I think Lisa Mary's been gone on the show for I think Lisa is I think Lisa is untouchable because she really does get reactions out of people but at the same time, I'm just like, again, I'm kind of just sick of her being everyone's storyline. So maybe even getting rid of Lisa for a year. I don't know. No. She's the son. She's like what everything, you know. Agreed. I'm just like, I don't know how you keep her as like the star of the show without

everybody being like here. This is what my storyline is. I could handle three seasons of Lisa the hero. I would love to see a turnaround. But then. Yeah. I actually would love to see it of redemption. I feel like Girlship is kind of that a little bit. It has been up to this point. but I would love to see. We were doing so well. We were doing so well. I feel like Tyra Banks. We're rooting for you Lisa.

We're all rooting for you. For her to show up late and have no remorse where I was just like, this is the type of things where the little things add up. And we've seen that with her cast where I'm like, it doesn't matter because it seems like the big stuff that they bring up about Lisa. You're like, it's too granderous.

We don't even know if there's any truth. It's lies. But then I'm like her being disrespectful to an entire cast and crew of people that are about to catch a flight. And when Giselle said it was 100. people that they have traveling with them. And she's like, I will apologize when I feel like it's sincere.

Girl, I would get on that fucking bus and be like, I am so sorry. I am so sorry. I call me a piece of shit. I know I did this. X-ways and she's like, I don't need to explain myself to anyone. Like crazy. Relax. It's a really good Lisa Barlow. That's pretty good Lisa Barlow. I don't need to explain myself.

Listen, you either want Lisa in your life or you don't. And you can't be like, I want Lisa to be my friend and men like, but you need to start showing up on time. I would just cease to put myself in a situation where her tardiness or her punctuality affects me. Yeah, but how can you control that? You can't? Just, I don't know. Why do they have to wait for?

Leave her behind. I think they do it on purpose. I think it would leave her behind. Yeah, because I was like they. That's part of the drama for the show, too. It's like someone being late. A lot of the times. Yeah.

That's true. And they always have like multiple cars, but then they make it seem as if it's like the one car. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't Lisa Kudrow bring up a van discrepancy in Beverly Hills? Beverly Hills with Erica and Kyle. I forgot who.

Oh, Doreet. Doreet leaves them, but it's like, no, there was a second van. Also, another moment I just have to bring up and give its flowers to. Queen Nini Weeks has left the network. I'm pretty positive. Soothed the network. Came back as not only the queen of Shiba being carried in, but that girl had multiple grand entrances.

And it was just like, this is the welcome back to Bravo. I love to see, but also like all of the women just loving her being back to. What people don't appreciate about this and what Nina Leaks represents. What's that? That reality TV stars have talent. Because at the end of the day, when it comes to entertainment, talent always wins. And you can kind of, you can sue your employer. And they'll be like, come on back.

You sure you don't want to come back? Because at the end of the day, like in this biz, talent always wins. Like, is there a world in which. she would come back to Atlanta. Do you think this was a test run? I think so. I think it was A to see how she gets on with the women. I also kind of loved that moment with one of her old cast members, Lisa, where she wasn't acknowledged as being an OG. And I just love that Nini was literally like, I'm not doing, I'm not doing these kinds of scenes. Like, I'm not sorry. I forgot you. Do you need me to explain it again? I forgot you. And I was like, that's the attitude I kind of miss on

my housewives where it's like, did I stutter? Like, and that is, you know what I mean? And that's like Nini where it's just like I don't play games. I don't like this. I'm direct about this versus like all of the talking behind people's backs and whatnot. I was like Nini is a legend in the sense of just like how to be a housewife, how to own it. And like also just like taking no shit. And so like I was really happy to see her come back. Thank you. Just like I was actually really happy to see New York Housewives coming back. So good. It was awesome. It was really good. I thought that was a great premiere. Being reminded that Claudia Oshery's internet bully was on this show.

Wait, which one is she? I remember hearing about this. Who chose to rollerblade in her opening scene. And they didn't even like, they just showed a rollerblade and they cut, and then they like cut away from it. They didn't get into a whole like intro package. They just showed her rollerblading. Wait, that's so funny. You guys, I forgot. I remember seeing that she was literally internet bullied.

I forgot about it until you just said that. And I, and I obviously watched last night. And I'm like, that's, it's actually even. better that it's her. Like, that's amazing. If you're Claudia, that must feel like awesome to have your internet boy show up on New York Housewives and just... And be able to drop that lore. Be their truest self in a way that is like, oh, for sure, you can say whatever you want about me. Of the new girls, what are our thoughts between... So we have Haley Glassman, obviously, who is roller skating through the streets. Apparently, the other woman in John

and Kate plus eight. She's married to a man, but she's allowed to date women. and she does do that, in fact. And then we got Daisy Toy, Martha Stewart's makeup artist, who showed up with a store-bought pie in front of Martha. Well, that was a great entrance. Like, we're at Daisy's apartment, and she opens the door and Martha Stewart works in. I was like, oh, yes, of course.

And then you have rollerblank. And I hate to shame the skaters out there because you know how much I love. I think if she was on four-wheels, if she was on quad, it'd be cooler. No personal bias there. More style points. You think she needs to go more 90s with it. No, but the juxtaposition between quads.

To bringing in Martha Stewart and is, um, you think the equivalent to Martha Stewart is quads. No, no. It was the polar opposite. It was, I think the producers had their favorite.

The intro too, where was it Carol narrating as, her gossip girl. Oh, it was giving sex in the city to me. It was an episode, Carrie Bradshaw, another day in New York with the music. I was like, this is giving movie. And then to start off,

with Martha Stewart as your entrance to housewives. I was like, girl, I don't care how much money you have. I don't care who your husband, who whatever. I don't care anything else. You are in. You are in. It's also real as hell that she was like, yeah, no, I accidentally didn't put away my store pie. Which now Martha Stewart is flaming me. When she was talking about Martha Stewart being in her popcorn ceiling apartment, I was just like, I love you. I felt better about myself. I was like, wait, you know what? We don't have to have everything together. Like, we can, we can be on the up and up. And you can still go on a camel with. Martha. Yeah. She had a snack. She ate some. It was a bagel. It was like, yeah. Immediately I was like, I wonder what she thinks of that. And she didn't give us a reaction. I was like, wait, that makes,

like, I'm like, I want just to rip off a piece of a bagel and just have it as a snack, but not the full bagel, you know, just like, I just want a bite of that bagel. That's all she wanted. It was like a little rip of it. It's kind of chic to only eat a rip of a bagel. It was really chic. I was like, I want to be that comfortable to just take a little rip of a bagel. Is it also chic to have a pediatric? I think that's so chic. And honestly, like, A, it kind of annoyed me because I was like, why does your husband not help you clean or do anything around the shared house? But I'm also kind of like, talk about protecting your peace. All right.

You want your peace of mind. Have your own little like French decorated, like gorgeous, like feminine space that like no voice allowed. For you to get like strapped down and your nose broken by a like kid? Question. Honestly, that to me is like, that's why he doesn't help clean. I'm like. How do you explain that entry? Yeah, exactly.

I'm like, that's her family. That's for her. And I love it. I think it's, yeah, I like it. Do you guys think Abe looks like, who's the actor married to Carrie Russell? Matthew Reese. Yeah. He does give a bit Matthew Reese.

I think if anyone was going to be in Widows Bay from this cast of Roney, it would be Abe. I kind of loved that conversation between Aaron and Jessel, where she's like, I don't talk about you literally ever. She's like, oh, you don't. What about when you called me this and this and this? She's like, well, who told you that? So actually, let's figure out who told you that first before I confirm. And then they play the voice note. Wait, no, she said something like, she goes, I feel that way.

But, like, it was weird. Like, she was like, I stand behind what I said. But who told you that I said that? But I need to know. I just like, Aaron, what? Also, Jessel kind of becoming my favorite on the show. Just saying. Yeah.

I disagree. I love Jessel and I like Sye. Like their new friendship. So do you buy, okay. Who in the room buys Sye and Jessel's friendship? Why wouldn't I? I think they just needed, I think they just needed Bryn to leave. Like, that's what was getting in their way.

And I think it made sense to me in the sense where I'm like, okay, you're so bothered by somebody else's relationship because you're projecting your own marriage issues that it's like, oh, you guys aren't connected. Because I was like, to be honest, I don't really see Cy and her husband being very connected. I see it with Povett and Jusel, even though. Ah, Povet. I think part of adulthood is growing up and realizing a lot of people. you don't like throughout life, especially your initial reaction or people who remind you of you.

Mirror. And when you get older, you can learn about some of your shortcomings and then if you are able to like break that like disconnect and learn how to like, I guess love yourself, you can have some really great friendships with people you used to be adversaries worth.

So yeah, I totally buy it. Have you guys ever had that happen where you like really didn't like somebody and then you become close friends with them, not just cool with them. I really did not like Victoria Fuller. Really? Isn't that crazy? And now we're like sisters.

I mean, it's... She didn't. Well, before she really met her. Before I met her. Yeah, I had never met her before. I just knew her because Nick and I were talking at this time. And she like went on his podcast and then they like went out to get lunch afterwards and paparazzi got him.

And I saw all these photos. And it was like, oh, Nick and Victoria dating. And I was like sitting at home. my apartment in Georgia being like this motherfucker. And then he like took her to restoration hardware to help pick out furniture for his house that I was like supposedly going to be moving into. I'm like, what the fuck this bitch? And then the second that we lock eyes.

I was like, you're going to love your, because I was like, I don't know, she's just a frat. You know, like, but you know, from her perspective, it was just a girl from Bachelor Nation. And I was like, yeah, I'm sure you'll meet her. You guys are going to get along great. We met at Govball in New York City. And the second we locked eyes with each other. I was like, oh my God, this is my bitch. Like, that's crazy, you know?

And it's just, that's so valid, though. Like, I think most women would feel the same way. Right? Like, I kind of, and Nick also was really playing in my face back then. Like, remember the, he posted the picture with Kelly Flanagan and was like really leaning into like him and Kelly dating. Like, you really were playing in my face. Wow.

Wow. As Harry Jaze would say, I had work to do. Literally. The man was clocked in. Yeah. Shout out Harry. And then Natalie said, I've got a date tonight and Nick's like, oh, no, no, no.

Thank you. Let me lock that down. It all worked out. Back to, you know, what I want for my birthday. Oh, wow. Thank God. Circling back. Okay.

Unbated breath. A couple mornings ago, I was making breakfast. And River, she's a singer. Right now she's been singing, um, dough. A dear, a female, dare, ray. I drop a golden son. She's got that part down. And then she's got me a name.

And then she gets that sometimes okay. The other morning. she was sitting on the counter I was making breakfast and she was singing one of her songs I forget which one it was and I started singing back to her

and we locked eyes like we were singing a duet and she goes aw daddy I love you and if I have another moment like that on my birthday I'll have a great birthday I'll try to get her to recreate that with you

she can do it she is in her singing era which is like she's so on tune she kind of has a good voice no lie And she, like, memorizes the songs, which I feel like is kind of... I don't know.

I don't know if she's a genius or just a precocious two-year-old. We do this all the time. Guys, we're always like, she's a genius or she's just a normal two-year-old. We don't know. And we certainly have a lot of questions as parents. And our guest, this episode, who's coming up later, Dr. Schafali, she is a well-respected psychologist. Oprah. She's in the Oprah Club.

She's in the Oprah Club. And so she's got a big following. And we'll continue to have experts on our show. but she has these two new books, one for boys, one for girls, talking about conscious parenting, which I had a lot of questions about. One thing I think we can all agree on when it comes to parents is like, there's a million ways to do it and there's not one perfect way. And I am fascinated with all these kind of different, like, more modern, you know,

gentle parenting, conscious parenting. And what is useful from that and what is, I don't know, you know, what is not for everyone? Anyways, we had a fascinating conversation with Dr. Safali, and that's coming up next. But I had a lot of questions, and she said a lot of interesting things. So I'm sure a lot of parents, you will find this interesting and maybe learn something. Maybe it's not for you. But it's a very interesting conversation because as River gets older, I'm just trying to figure out how our brain works. And it's fascinating.

Going back to the Salt Lake City, I just want to add a hot take really quick. And it's not really a hot take because, obviously, if you've been listening to me on this show ever, talking about Salt Lake City, you know how I feel. If I could get rid of one housewife on the show, I think it would be Heather Gay. Wow, really. So I just wanted to state that. Okay. I just really felt like where I was like, because I don't want to bench Lisa. I don't want a season without Lisa. But I was like, I'm just tired of everybody making her the storyline. But like honestly, I just think I'm tired of like Heather's version of self-producing. We saw it with the Monica season, receipts, whatever epic, iconic, great. The following season and the finale

in Italy or wherever we were. It was just like we're doing too much. And then I think seeing this ultimate girls trip situation where it's like she clearly just drinks a lot and then just yells at people. And I'm just over it. Does it feel like Heather is like someone who like for a long period of time in their life

didn't have power? And now they have power and you don't like what they're doing with that power? She's drunk on it. Like that's literally like how it feels like you're drunk on power and you're just like and you know that there's always going to be a band of at least two or three of the women who have your sides, who you have numbers,

and therefore they're not going to cross you. I don't know if she's a producer pet. I don't know if she's a favorite. I don't know. She could just be another, you know, the same way that people are like, Kyle Cook has so much power on Summerhouse when he really didn't. So I'm just kind of like, I don't know what her positioning is on the show, but I'm just saying from season one where she was like this likable, like you're kind of like almost

like rooting for her kind of sad. Because it's like her and Jen Shaw, and it's like you're watching her going back to this relationship and then she did it with Lisa and then it's like she gets drunk on the fact that it's like after season after Bermuda she gives Brutus energy you know what I mean yes to Brutus like she literally is like let's stab Caesar and then she's like well who who's next and like that's where I'm just like tired of it I'm just tired I need her to take like a back seat or like at least like I would be happy if she was on pause for a season and I will stand on that well we not only have Salt Lake City, but people are kind of saying that they're getting like overwhelmed with the amount

of TV that we have coming up, which I feel like is kind of a crazy thing to say, because when there's no TV, we obviously are the exact. Yeah, we're like, where is it? Where's all the good TV? I agree with you, but I also, I don't know if it's with getting older where I'm just like, I understand being in school and then summer and you're outside or whatever. But I'm like, I don't know, as you get older, like seasons, holidays, they kind of all blend into, like, weekends. I'm working on the weekend. Sometimes I'm off on a Monday. Like, these things aren't, you know, set in stone. So I'm kind of like, I don't know why you break up where I'm like, we could have a great summer lineup and then also have a great fall lineup. Why do we have to have like this

skimpy summer, like sifting through? Like, maybe I have two days of television to watch. And then come fall where I'm working, I'm inside. I have shit to do. You're like, what about 15 added hours of television today. What about Real Housewives of New York? You live in L.A. Sierra, and like, you know, the first thing I noticed and experienced transitioning from like a Midwest environment to L.A. is like literally not knowing what month it was,

you know. Yeah. Yeah. We work. Because you don't have seasons. But like, for me, for us, I think for so many people, like there's nothing better than a rainy, cozy day. And a little, a little free time on your calendar and a good show that you have looking forward to watch, right? But I guess that's what

people are saying is that there's like 500 shows to watch and how are we watching all of them? Well, everyone's competing, you know. But sometimes, also, equally as nice, on an blistering 105 degree Los Angeles Day when I'm sitting inside on my air conditioning because it's too hot to go outside. I have nothing to watch for the week. Thank God

for 90-day fiancé and ultimate girls' trip. But like outside of that, I got nothing. Well, L.A. is still in a heat wave and here are the shows that we have coming out right now. we have the real housewives of New York. The real house was with Salt Lake City. Real house was of Orange County. Real housewives of Potomac.

Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Dancing with the Stars. Traders, New Blood. And then rapping currently, we got Ultimate Girls Trip and Double Lives of Suburban Lives, which does seem a bit excessive. And you're only on like, you're also on one network.

This is just reality TV. Are we looking forward to season five of Mormon Wives? Are we just all trying to like get through it? Because I think the expectation is that it's brief and it's heavy. And it's a lot. I'm looking forward to it because I do think we've never experienced anything quite like this. Well, I'm sure we have. I'm new to the Bravo world.

So I think actually the Housewives get some crazy stuff. So I'm new to that. But this to me feels kind of like monumental or like pivotal in reality TV where we've reality TV too close to the sun. And it's like this got out of control. So I'm kind of curious how they're going to, I don't know what they're going to present to us. Because I'm like, are they cutting people from scenes? are they just going to put out what they have? Like I really don't know what to expect.

So I'm excited. I don't know if I should say excited. I'm curious to watch it. And I'm curious to see if they can reel it in and like actually have just some fun reality TV for us. Or is this going to be like a dark season of life that we're like, let's just get through this. I hope they can end it on a positive note somehow. I hope so too. I also think that I'm like, it's been so long without Secret Lives and Mormon Wives that I'm like,

it's interesting when the show is going. that it's like you cannot get away from the headlines. And even though there's been, you know, like the Jesse Draper stuff and all that, like, I just feel like it doesn't have as much weight as once the show is on. And I feel like once the show is on, we're back into the phenomenon of it all. You know what I mean? It's going to be like a new headline all the time. And also what is happening with the Taylor, Frankie, Paul Bachelorette?

Is it airing or is it not? I think we got to give it up. I think it's not happening. I think there was a window. I mean, I was one who said it was a guarantee that it was going to happen. Everyone I talked to. I just think there was never a long enough period of time or it felt like. like, you know, and I think still things are ongoing.

So it's, yeah, I, I would be shocked at this point. Are they going to film a new season? My understanding is they are locked in for the next Bachelor. Like, it's not, I don't know if they announced it, but like I think behind the scenes, everyone I talk to, it's like happening. How are they going to find that person? You can't, I just like, it's. I have an idea.

They should go do what they did for Dancing with the Stars Next Pro and they should take it to the streets. Yeah. My friend Dylan, he actually came up with this idea. And I'm like, I think that's actually so smart. Like, go across America, interview people, have people nominate worthy men and let the people vote. I 100% agree. That's so obvious.

Why wouldn't they do that? You know what I mean? Then you get all of that stuff out before, like all of the stuff about these guys would be out before they even became the Bachelor. Yeah. So then you avoid. Exactly. It could be a really awesome Game of Thrones type of show. Yeah.

That, yeah, that's a genius idea. Or maybe you flip the script. Maybe the next season of The Bachelor is the women decide who the Bachelor would be. Like they start out with the 30 women and then they bring in 30 guys. And then the 30 women eliminate guys to get to one guy. And then that guy eliminates them. No, no, no, no. America gets to pick.

America gets to pick. It's a whole show. Maybe you bring back previous alumni. I don't know. Yeah. If they need a host, I'm happy to do. do it. He's like, while we're pitching, I'm going to throw myself in the rain. While we're pitching, I would be more than happy. If Jesse's busy, it's football season, so, you know. So true.

It'd be crazy. You could have ex-girlfriends coming forward. It would be a whole thing. It would be a thrill. Yeah, you stop in their city and it's like, if you think he might be coming out for the show, now's your time to speak up. Oh, my God. They have to. I think it's a great idea. I mean, I can already start thinking about some of the problems it could cause, but it's a great idea. I've thought about putting a casting call out for myself and just asking like sisters of nice guys to like come forward. I'm like I want to put out of yeah pitch their brother to me like that's been my my vision for myself but I'm like if the show, Susie stop sharing this genius idea and let's make a reality TV show. Oh I've got a great a bunch of great ideas but like oh cut it. No I love it like marry my

brother. Let's wait let's do it kind of cute kind of cute. I've been thinking. I've been thinking I'm like, I should put that out. Can I be the interrogator? Yeah. I would trust you. I got someone I can text the idea to. Okay. I got a list of questions.

Speaking of all of the above, we have double lives of suburban wives, which is just the questions that are coming out of this show are limitless. I think they are exposing real life marriages more than people realize. I mean, it was like, you know, catch up with some married friends who live in a neighborhood every once in a while. Stories are wild. the yeah the relationship Brie and Phillips relationship them talking about them being what was it what was the

label in an ethically non monogamous which is basically open right you're open yeah with some boundaries yeah but like with conversations yes and boundaries they loved that word boundaries yeah you can't when you know open without any boundaries like I guess you can just fuck everyone you're just

you're like I don't want to know about it yeah you're just and then ethical non-mogamy is like a conversation and you're picking people together. You're watching. You're exploring kinks. You're exploring like, you know. Cucking.

Yeah, a lot of cooking. Guys, the word is aggressive. That's such a... It is. I'm with you, dude. I don't know. I don't like the word, but that's what it is. I don't like it with an O.

I don't like it with you. It's smacking your face when you say. Keep it away from me. I don't like it with any vowels, babes. Yeah. That TK is just... Yeah. A.W. I don't like it.

It sounds like Philip just plain old cheated. Well, that was before their boundaries. So that's what I was also kind of confused about too, because she was upset because they have an open relationship. They don't consider it cheating. He did. She said that he broke my trust, which means that he made a plan. They can call it whatever they want. I was confused by this as well because I think we kind of were chatting about this where somebody said, okay, like he broke.

She has said I broke, he broke my trust. But then in the room earlier we were saying, well, that was before they set boundaries. but in the show they are presenting it as cheating. So I'm kind of confused because to me I'm like it sounds like you guys did have some kind of boundary. Maybe it wasn't a firm boundary, but it sounds like. Or it sounded like there was some form of communication that wasn't expressed because the whole, the idea that these two are also simultaneously fighting based off of the fact that he's upset that he doesn't feel attracted or that she's not attracted to him.

So therefore they're not having sex. Yeah. When their job, like the whole thing was just like, this is so interesting to me because it is like a relationship dynamic based off of trust, but then it's like you would think because of what their jobs entail that you're like, you guys wouldn't fight about something like this, but like. Also it kind of reminded me of like when your hobby becomes your job, like as a photographer and then becoming a photographer, I'm like, it's no longer fun.

It's like sex work when you're like, this used to be really fun. And now this is my job. I have to show up and like. Now have to pay bills. I have to pay my bills. And you want me to have fun with you? Yeah. I know.

It's an interesting dynamic. but I don't know. I think that there's something about ethical non-monogamy. I've had friends try. It never ends well. I even think with boundaries, it's really hard. With your friends, Susie, who have tried it? Yeah.

How does it start? Is it starting in a period of like disconnect? Or are they like, we're into this? Like we know some people who explored on some level. They seem to be crushing life. I don't think it's like, I don't think it's their whole relationship identity. I think it's something they've tried. But it's something they've done together.

But it didn't start in a place of, I think I want to have sex with other people. What do you think? I don't even know the context of why this started for this particular couple. They're a married couple and they got married really young. And so I don't know if that plays into it where there's like an element of like, oh, we never got to explore. I feel like that's going to end poorly. Yeah, it didn't go well. These aren't close friends of mine, by the way, but they're...

You know, like, I don't really know that well. And a lot of, like, specifically, like, gay male relationships, like, ethical non-monogamy is, like, very common. Yeah? So, I think it just depends on... So it's not all negative, but I do wonder if, like, in a... In your more, like, traditional relationship heterosexual sense, like, it... just because of like all of the pressures outside of it. If it's just harder to maintain or like there's a different relationship with sex with like.

But it feels like you can't be like a jealous person like that already where I'm just kind of like, I don't know. My feelings would be so hurt no matter which way this conversation would have come up just like me personally that I'm like if my partner looked at me and was like, how do you feel about or would you be open to? Because at the end of the day that means that you're open to it or that you want to. And I feel like at the end of the day, it's hard for me as a person where I'm like, I solely believe in monogamy that I'm kind of like, I don't see how we could have that closeness, that connection if knowing that you want to be intimate with other people. I think part of the reason why it doesn't work with a lot of people, like what Mary just talked about, why it works in some spaces, particularly with men exclusively having sex with men, is that like men often respond differently to sex than with women. and you're trying to navigate that emotional response and couples where it's a man and a woman.

And that's like couples, men and women have a hard time communicating about fucking dinner. Right. And so I think that's a challenge where like, you know, me and my guy friends, like call it, well, locker room talk, call it like women having conversations with women. When you women talk about sex,

like you guys are relating about your experiences in ways that like, you know, we don't. And guys do too. And I think if you're participating in that, I would imagine be easy to like, you know, have sex with a guy and be like, yeah, that, you know, I feel the exact same way, you know. It's kind of like, I don't know who here has been cheated on, but for me, I feel like when I went through a relationship where somebody cheated on me physically, I, to that person,

they're like, it doesn't mean anything. And to me, I'm like, how can it not mean anything? Like, that to me, it was such a disconnect for me. me where I couldn't understand how they didn't have like, I don't know, I couldn't like connect the dots in my brain of somebody being like, oh yeah, this doesn't, it means nothing to me where I feel like to a woman, I'm like, if I were having sex with somebody, like it would mean something to me to an extent, I guess. But I feel like, yeah, maybe that kind of opens up like the conversation that you were saying, Nick, where it's like, well, how did the, how did this conversation start?

Was it, oh, we're not having sex or there's a disconnect between us? Or is it just like, hey, we like to explore our sexuality? Because those are like two completely different things. So somebody's just exploring. Well, talking about the people we know, again, we don't know like in the weeds. But my general understanding is it started because they had a mutual interest in this thing. And they both got the same thing out of it. And it wasn't about the other person.

It was about like what they were sharing in this relationship as opposed to say like a really young couple who's like, man, we've only had sex with each other. And can we be honest with each other? You know, are you ever curious about what it's like to fuck other people? And then they both, like, give each other grace because they both are empathizing with the, you know, the same things. And then they just realize that like, yeah, there's a lot of people out there and they can love other people and they, you know, and then they disconnect.

And that's a completely different setup. Like in suburban wine specifically, I do think it's like important to like remember that it's like they are already making content and like doing sex work. So it's like in that vein. like sex is already something that is like not just connection not just connection but also like another thing so I do wonder if it's like different like a lot of sex workers are are obviously non monogamous because you're doing yeah I don't know but like there's adult film stars who get married yeah and it's a it's a

separate I mean I don't know too much about it but I imagine it's like there's a separate I would imagine there's a separation between like the sex you're having for work and then like the non-monogamy you have in your own relationship, but also at the same time, you've already experienced sex with a different person. So I would imagine maybe ethical non-monogamy could be a little bit easier for like, or just make more sense for a couple like that in general. That's like if the ethical part of it is based off of that you're doing it for work, then like I understand that. But I feel like it's not, I feel like it's, I can see how it's a complicated dynamic between the two of them because if also you're allowed to have

other scene partners and do all of this for work. And then to also include that into your personal relationship, too, then I'm just kind of Yeah. You know, and you don't, I mean, in the, in the sex work community, obviously it's like, there's no sort of, it's just physical intimacy. You're not, like, experiencing any sort of, like, emotional connection or, like, intentions, which is probably a lot of, like, ethical non-monogamy, I would assume. I mean, at the end of the day, you can't, you can't tell someone how to feel about your actions,

right? Like, you can disagree with how your actions. make them feel. But when it comes to marriage or like a romantic relationship, that's like the only relationship where you really, like for all the conversations to the world about your feelings, do they matter or they don't matter? Well, when it comes to a romantic relationship, that's the thing that matters most is how you make your partner feel. And if you guys are either going to work that out or you're not going to work that out, if you are adult film stars who choose to get married and your jobs to have sex with other people, that still could be very different than thinking your partner

or had sex with someone else because they wanted to because they wanted to feel something with that person. And like it all comes down to the boundaries and the communication and it doesn't really matter like what we think about it or what other people think about it. It just really matters how you made your partner feel. And if they feel like you connected or you did something wrong or you stepped out on the relationship or the agreement you had,

then you fucked up. Also, I mean, this just made me think of even outside of adult content creation, But even people who are actors, like I feel like it's so common in Hollywood that people fall in love with their co-star. It's just, I think that that would be just a really hard pill to swallow if you're the other partner. No matter what your partner's performing in, whether it's like a sex, maybe it's easier with sex. I don't know because maybe there's not this like, you know, quality time spent where I feel like co-stars in a TV show or a film, they're spending so much quality time together. and they're building connection on screen. Like, I don't know.

It's really in off camera. Yeah. It's like a really interesting conversation. But I think that that would be, it would add a lot of complications to I think most relationships. If it's not something you talked about. Also, that's the whole thing too. If it's not something you talked about before starting the marriage. Like I think that these jobs probably bring up a lot of tough conversations.

Like how do we feel about having sex on camera with other people? because that's not a conversation I've ever had with, you know, a partner. So I feel like that's, I don't know. It doesn't just come up. Yeah, it doesn't just come up. And there's one of the husbands worried about when their parents find out if they will basically think their entire life was a waste, which is heavy. Very heavy.

That is heavy. I think as a parent, I have one job at the end of the day. I mean, is to prepare my daughters for life whenever I am not able to take care of them or when they're adults and they have to write to be like, I don't want your help anymore to prepare them for like all the things that fucking the scary world brings them. Which I feel like is kind of why we like parent the way that we do where we're not this like super gentle parenting because the world is not gentle and I think we've both experienced how cruel the role can be.

And so it's like, you know, they're not going to gentle parent you when you get out there and you're all on your own. Maybe you're used to this for me. It's going to be like a shell shock when you get into the real world and you don't have, you know, then me to hold your hand through it. River was talking back to my dad and he, you know, we put River in a time out. It's not, you know, I don't know how effective it is. But my dad was like punishing River and you could tell my dad looked over like, I was like, no, please, thank you, you know, because, you know, my parents are very respectful, but like, there's one thing I know I had that I appreciated an adult life was my parents teaching me to respect elders and allowing other people in our community,

whether it be coaches or teachers or other parents, discipline us if we need to discipline and I feel like there's that, I feel like that's less common these days where there's a lot of like, don't tell my kid what to do. I'm the only one who can do that. And, you know, I don't know. I was, no, I was like, please, like she needs to, she's too reliant. We can see her when she doesn't get her away, she'll turn to someone else. She'd be like, well, I'm a ass. No, I'm not going to get the answer from you. Let's go to someone else. I sent this. Oh, I used to do that all the time as a kid. And it never worked out in my favor.

I sent this to Nick and it's old school manners kids aren't learning in 2026. Standing up to greet someone. A firm handshake eye contact and standing up to elders show respect and honor. Two, using yes ma'am and no sir. It's not outdated. It's just respectful, especially when addressing adults and leaders. Maintaining eye contact during conversations. Screens have taught kids to look down, teach them to look up when someone speaks. Four, holding the door open for others. Not just for boys. Kindness, awareness, and service are genderless virtues. Five, waiting your turn to speak, not interrupting. Sorry. It's Chris. What we say isn't more important than others. This is what sets maturity apart. Six, handwriting thank

you notes. T.H.X. Thanks. Isn't enough. Gratitude deserves thought and effort. Seven, offering a seat to elders or moms with kids. Chivalry isn't dead. It's fading. Raised kids who notice others' needs. Eight, honoring others' personal space. Nine, keeping phones off the table during meals. But this, like, it reminds me of something I've taught River and I watched it in real time

the other day where it's like, it's one of those kind of things where, like, no one's invisible. Like, you see, you know, you say hello to people who come into a room, you look at them, you stand, whatever it is. Like, you don't just act like someone didn't. to her room. You don't act like someone's not standing near you. And the other day, like, the landscapers were mowing the grass. And she, like, went out and she waved to them and they waved back. And it was a cute little moment. And I was trying to get her in the car. And I was kind of, like, rushing. And she was like, mom, say hello. And I was like, you're right. Like, hello. How are you

doing today? But it's like, it is so interesting that a lot of those are kind of, you know. I think the thing I struggle with the most with the information out there. And I our next guest, Dr. Safali, is very qualified and an expert in this stuff. And she has some very interesting points of view. You know, and she talks a lot about just to preface the interview, like gentle, a conscious parenting is kind of challenging parents to look within a lot of childhood trauma stuff in terms of like how much are we projecting, you know, our lived experience onto our children. Which I think this, you know, it's a very interesting stuff to reflect.

But my question is, at what point for parents? Because, listen, we're not going to get everything right. You know, it's like, you know, we joke about like, I don't know what we're going to do, but I guarantee my kids, like, I complain about it at some point. In 20 years, what we thought was right today, we're going to realize, you know, was wrong. You know, it happens a lot.

But I feel good about knowing that, like, you know, my parents might have made mistakes. And, like, you know, Natalie's had a much childhood, tougher childhood than I had. But to whatever degree, we survived it and we were here, there were a lot of valuable lessons learned. And at some point, how do parents not try to, you know, massage parenting so much that their kid doesn't experience any, you know, like any challenge,

even if it's the challenges that we bring him as parents because we fuck it up, you know, we get it wrong. We, we project whatever it is. Like, so, you know, like, the world is going to be a much harsher place. And I think I struggle with, there's so much information about parents and how to be better parents and how to like not do, you know, not fuck up your kids that like, you know, we're spending so much time thinking about, I don't know, it's what, you know, and I think that's the thing I struggle with the most and I asked Dr. Chafali about. So I'm curious what all the parents and non-parents and just people in general think about what she has to say. It was very, very interesting. Well, before we get to Dr. Chivalalli, we, just a reminder, the Val Fals Plus is

available in ad-free. And we have some fun conversation. Jimmy Sotos has been joining ValfaS Plus lately. I've been getting into the weeds. Obviously with things like the Lindsay Clancy case and all the, you know, we wax a little bit more poetic about life and, and Natalie doesn't yell at me for fogging up the shower, and we go deep. But in addition to that, we also have our pop extra episodes where we talk about your favorite pop culture headlines in the news. We also have your Vial Files Plus episodes, your favorite VALS calls.

So if you were interested in signing up for VALFiles Plus, just go to VALFALS.com to sign up, and you will be glad that you did. All right. Up next, Dr. Chafali, a very respected psychologist, has two new books out, both one for boys, one for girls, talking about conscious parenting. It's a fascinating conversation, and she is up next.

Dr. Sheffali, welcome to this show. I'm so excited to be here. Very excited to have you. Now I and I are talking more and more, obviously, about parenting. We're the parents of three young daughters, 3 under three, as they say. We have twins at home or eight weeks old. We obviously really enjoy the whole parenting experience. I think we think we're pretty decent at it, you know.

But we obviously, as our kids get older, specifically our daughter River, It's a little different when they're just little beans, you know, little potatoes. You wrap them up. You got to make sure you feed them and change them. But now that River's two and a half, she's becoming, you know, she's speaking. She's becoming more precocious. She's, you know, acting out, all while being very charming. And I think it's as our kids get older, we realize, obviously, there's a lot of things we don't

understand about the way our child's brains work. And so we wanted to use this show to bring on people like you to maybe learn a little about our children and parenting from the experts like yourself so that hopefully we can learn and maybe any parents and anyone interested in learning about these topics can learn as well. So thank you for coming. We're excited to have you. Of course. Such a pleasure. You know, what I teach in conscious parenting is that you will not only learn about your child, but really you learn about the child inside you and how your brain needs to develop and how we need to regulate as parents. I mean, that is just the most profound shift, I think, we can make as parents, because we're so invested

in kind of creating this perfect being on the outside. But then what I teach in conscious parenting is that this is your most profound invitation to hone the individual on the inside, the parents in ourself. And this journey becomes this amazing opportunity to go deep within yourself and see yourself through their eyes, right? Now you have this opportunity to look in the mirror. So parenting becomes this very deep invitation to beckon yourself back home to yourself. That's very interesting. I mean, you know, Nali and I, we both participate in therapy, both as individuals, and we've done couples therapy. We find it be very helpful for our personal lives. And certainly those are things we've learned in therapy, certainly childhood traumas, things like that,

is fairly common these days, people kind of discovering, you know, their childhood trauma. It's almost so much so that it's like trending online. But how does that, how is that different than what you mean by conscious parenting? Yeah. So it's not only the trauma that is unheeled within you. That, that's the basic and the fundamental premise that we need to heal that. Otherwise, it passes down. What I also teach are some more layers. And let me just get a into two of those layers, at least. One of them is that in order to be conscious, you need to be aware of the conditioning

that you have inherited from culture, from your family of origin. So your belief systems, your ideations around sexuality, around how love is expressed, what does money mean to you? What is culture? Do I follow culture's prescriptions?

and most of us have inherited such deep brainwashing, really, around these cultural prescriptions that we don't even think to deconstruct them before we pass them down. So my work in conscious parenting really challenges parents. No, let's examine what your belief systems are around success, around happiness, around what connection should look like and it shouldn't, around belonging. So deep introspection and reflection around what we've inherited so that what we do pass down

is after some real reflection. I think our children are owed, our deconditioning and our deconstruction around what culture just will blindly throw you into the vortex with. And sometimes we don't deconstruct that. You know, trauma makes sense. But then what about the rest of the belief systems around marriage, around love, or on monogamy, on sexuality, around money, around success, around achievement. Let's go deeper into that as well.

And then the other layer I talk about, which is just about mindfulness and presence, and do you practice mindfulness in your life? Are you able to really deeply connect with yourself? Because the more whole and connected a parent is to their own inner space and their own inner being, that's how they will project that wholeness onto their children. but if they're constantly fixing themselves, they're going to constantly fix their child. Sorry I spoke for so long.

No, no, no, that's okay. I appreciate you sharing all that. I'm curious about the deconstruction because it makes a lot of sense, but like I guess what I'm curious, like how you mentioned going really deep, right? So how do you draw the line between deconstructing, you know, everything we've learned, our cultures, you know, whatever religion, political beliefs, you know,

thoughts on all the things you mentioned versus this, you know, I guess a core belief system or maybe for the people who are devout in a religion? Are people supposed to examine their faith as well? Like, how deep are we getting here with everything that we think and feel? Well, you know, it really depends on the individual. And do they want to be a deep spiritual seeker where they upturn everything that culture has put on them and be really curious and talk about how the self gets identified by things on the outside?

It depends on how deep one wants to go. And typically, most people don't want to go deep. They want to stay in the confines of what their family or culture has placed on them. And that's fine. That is absolutely fine. The rubber meets the road when you meet others or your children who don't want to subscribe to your belief systems. You see, that's when you begin to really, you know, stick to the rigidity and the fundamentalism of your belief systems. And it's really not fair because if you want to raise children who are given the space,

to at least explore who they wish to be. You've got to give them that room. And if you come down with a high, rigid belief system, then they, out of wanting your approval, will just wear that costume, but it will always feel like a disguise. And children will do anything for the love of their parents. And it's not fair then, because that's conditional love.

I hear what you're saying. It makes a lot of sense in a lot of spaces. When you describe this kind of situation, I actually think about my own family that I grew up, and I have 10 brothers and sisters, and just telling you that, probably can make a couple of guesses about like just how I was raised. We raised very Catholic. You know, my parents were very devout Catholic. And growing up as a young child, obviously that

was very ingrained in us, right? You know, I have Catholic guilt, as they say, and religious shame. And that's something I've processed over the years. I've this vivid memory, for example, as a young man, not even a young man, like a teenager. And my parents talking about like what marriage meant to them in the eyes of God. And essentially, they were basically telling me, if we didn't get married by a Catholic police, that we wouldn't be married in the eyes of God. Like that stuck me with his young child. And obviously, again, the shame, pressure,

all those things you talked about. But my parents, you know, now I have, I don't know how many of my siblings are married. I can't keep track. But none of us have been married by a Catholic priest. My parents' beliefs have evolved because their children went out into the world, felt the love of our parents.

And not that my parents ever said, you know, you have our permission. to choose your own life, but essentially the love that we felt from our parents, I guess essentially gave us permission. And now I have a family that is across the political spectrum. I have many siblings, part of the LGBTQ community. It is a broad spectrum. And yet we are still a family. Every family has, you know, we have our own drama. But I guess how, what is the difference between how my parents ended up on that path, who I doubt they've read your book or learned about conscious parenting. And so you know what I'm saying? What's the difference? Well, it really depends on

what else is there in the context, right? So if you only remember that one memory and then that is the way you were raised with a lot of like shoulds and finger pointing and a very narrow lane, then that child will have two choices to comply or to rebel. And we don't want to give children two choices only. And it seems like your parents had a very strong belief system. And, that they did pass down, and so you had to deal with the repercussion of guilt and shame, but they also had enough flexibility and enough space there for every child to kind of discover who it is they are. So parents have to toggle a fine line, you know, and let me tell you, when there are rigid belief systems in a family, quite typically you'll see one of the two extremes

of compliance and civility and blind repetition, or you see wild, outright, feral rebellion. And you want to fall somewhere in between. You know, ideally for me, you want to have more space than rigidity, but parents can play that line well. But there will be a price to pay. And you too, despite your freedom to evolve in your own way, you did have to deal with the shadows of that rigid belief system, correct? You'd still have to contend with what that brought up in you.

For sure, yeah. I mean, I guess, but I'm curious how, and then when it comes to this type, of philosophy, I mean, where do you, I guess part of me thinks like in today's kind of, like, you know, it's been really interesting and helpful for me to understand my past, unimpact my past, you know, everything we just talked about. I also take it as like, it's really helped me, again, understand myself, learn about, it's helped me, you know, participate in society better. It's prepared me for the world. It's brought challenges in my life and challenges I've had to overcome and work through.

And I guess how do you draw the line between, I guess, because it feel like conscious parenting. I don't know if it's obviously very difficult than gentle parenting and stuff like that, but these, I guess, themes that have a very specific kind of method to it, I feel like a lot of parents have a hard time, you know, implementing them without going almost too far, right? Like where do you draw the line between, I want to be a gentle parent versus like, you know, You know, sometimes your kid just misbehaves and you're just like, hey, we're going to punish you. And I don't know. Maybe I'm projecting.

Maybe I'm doing this because my dad did it. I don't know. But like, we're just going to punish our kid. How does that all work? Well, punishment has now been exposed as kind of just being lazy and unconscious. There are many other things you can do versus punish your kids. So before you think in that instinctive kind of knee-jerk way, let me just say, punishment doesn't even have to be on the table. So don't worry.

Like it's been exposed as shame-based, fear-based, and it's really not even necessary. We don't need to teach our children through punishment ever. We can teach them through negotiation, through consequences, through reflection. There are many things we can do now instead of just going, you are punished for the bad behavior. Because when we tell a child they're punished, it means that we are telling them that their behavior was so bad and that they were intentionally creating that bad behavior. And now science has shown that children are not even aware of the cause and effects of their intention versus behavior. So we are here to teach them, to reflect back to them, to help them regulate enough so that then later in life they can begin to see that causal chain between intention and behavior.

Young children, because of the lack of prefrontal cortex functioning, are not able to see the cause and effect between intention and behavior. So punishment assumes that there was intention behind the behavior. Or it assumes that behavior when punished will take out the intention. And neither of them really are true. Punishment really just creates shame. What is the difference between consequences and punishment? Yes, right my mind. Yeah.

So punishment. So for example, give me an example, if your child hits the babysitter. Okay, so the child hits the babysitter. And what would be a punishment for that? Usually we, right now, we have her going to time out, which is like not very long. And we stand next to her in a corner and just give her a break. And that's the just right now. And it's kind of helpful, but kind of not. For sure. For sure. That's what we do. Yes, yes. I hear you. And so you're wondering, how is that different from just a consequence? Well, the difference isn't the intention of

the parent. If the parent is understanding that this hitting behavior has a occurred because the child is, quote, and quote, bad in some way or acting bad, then you will be coming from the premise of let's punish it. If the parent is with the intention that, ah, my child is dysregulated, my child doesn't have the skills, my child is just confused, she's overwhelmed.

Now the intention changes your energy and then changes the approach. And the second one is about teaching her natural consequences. But the first consequence she needs to learn is that she's hitting because of the consequence of her being overwhelmed, not because she's bad. It's because she doesn't know. So we can tell her, oh, you're confused right now or you're having a hard time right now. I'm here to help you. Let's go co-regulate together. And mom or dad is going to help you. I'm coming with the approach of I'm helping you versus I'm coming from the approach

of I'm stopping you. It's the intention and the energy of the parent. Yeah. The follow up to that. There's obviously a lot of discourse right now about parenting and just quite frankly the pressures that parents and specifically moms have to face. And by pressure, just like the challenges, right? Now, we for one are like, we recognize those challenges. We're also very grateful to be parents and like, you know, we kind of have a like we're grateful to do this, you know, even when it gets hard. That being said, it can be really hard. And I imagine some parents listening to this and some moms might be like, I don't, this all sounds great, but I don't have the time every time my kid acts up to sit

down and take the time as opposed to like putting them in, you know, giving them a time out. And it's a little more abrupt. And it, there's not the explanation. And it's not like you're bad or you know, it's, it's, it's, you're taking a time out. What would you say to those parents? Listen, it, I cannot even imagine being a parent today. I mean, when I started teaching conscious parenting in 2010, my daughter was three. And oh my goodness, I couldn't even focus, uh, on the kid. I couldn't do my job and focus. And I did not. have a phone in my pocket. So now with all the over-stimulation and over-exposure and the constant distractability, I cannot even imagine. So I just want to say this in no way is some preachy kind of

sermon. You need to be conscious. Consciousness is about being aware. About being aware, oh my God, I'm fatigued, I'm overwhelmed, I'm exhausted. How do I help this situation? The difference, though, is understanding that putting a kid in time out and quote-unquote punishing them is simply going to create worse problems. I tell parents, listen, I get it. I have yelled at my kid, I've thrown my kid into the room. But because of my own cause and effect and seeing how the next moment is worse

and the next day my kid is acting out even worse, either they're more despondent and anxious of me or they're more rebellious of me. I have learned through the pain of my own parenting that it's better to take that time in the moment to co-regulate and to teach them through compassion and our own reflection of steadiness than to deal with the after effects

of more anxiety tomorrow, more fear, and therefore more rebellion. So I'm just telling parents, okay, I know you're exhausted, I know you're tired, but let me tell you, if you don't do the work right now for the first three, four years,

the hell is coming at a torrential level later. So out of love for the mother and the busy father, I'm like, please let's do it right, as right and consciously as possible because you're creating this foundation that you will deal with the tsunami effects of later. I mean, I'm sure we could talk for hours

and I'm sure there's a lot to unpack here. It's fascinating stuff. But you talked about obviously, like, our cultures and just our brainwashing. You mentioned in terms of, which I acknowledge is definitely a reality of all the things that's been passed down. But there's also a lot of brainwashing going on

today online. And it almost feels actually more intense and more severe and at a faster pace than the brainwashing of our society over years of, you know, whatever. And for someone who's going through a deconstruction focusing on their past is in your book, do you talk about also like because I feel like a lot of people aren't aware. I mean, I'm sure I'm not even aware of how I've changed my points of view as a result of like the algorithm in that and that stuff. And but yet the discourse, you know, like, you know, even in my therapy is more just understanding my past, but no one's really talking about being aware of what's going on today. How would you address that to parents? I'm so glad you brought that up because really this is the reason I'm writing,

and these two books are coming out now, because people are not realizing how the algorithm is abducting us from our essence, our connection, our humanity. And I call it the algorithmic abduction of childhood. And that's why I wrote these two books for parents to wake them up and to give them a blueprint at the same time, to give them hope, confidence, empowerment, not just make them anxious and feel blamed. But let me tell you, I mean, I use severe imagery with parents and I'll tell them, the stranger is in your child's bedroom. They are at the foot of your child's bed. I mean, I have to say give them these really profoundly stark and visual imagery to think about, because parents are not realizing how insidious the algorithm is

in influencing their children. And then parents will tell me, but my kid doesn't have social media. My kid is not on YouTube. It doesn't matter. But the kid he's playing with on the playground, that kid is on YouTube or his brother is on YouTube. So it is everywhere.

And this doesn't mean you have to become paranoid and hypervigilant, but you definitely need to get your head out of the sand and do things differently. I mean, I wrote a book for boys. and a book for girls. And people ask me, why didn't you write them together? Because there was so much to say, because the algorithm pierces the boy differently

than it pierces the girl. The algorithm is so smart that it understands testosterone and dopamine versus estrogen and oxytocin so well that it is manipulating and exploiting you and your children without your awareness. Yeah, no, it's scary stuff. Obviously, if people are very interested in this,

you should buy your books. in our limited time, what are some practical things parents can do to practice what you're teaching? Well, just very quickly, but it may feel a lot what I'm about to say. So boys are going through a crisis of masculinity. They do not have a blueprint for conscious masculinity. So as parents raising a boy, we need to understand that the Matrix is sending them very confusing messages. You know, be like a girl, be empathic and vulnerable and expressive. Use your words.

And then on the other hand, they're getting these messages from the manisphere, which is be hyper-masculine and be, you know, don't care about what people say and kind of be dominant and exploitative. And that's masculinity. Oh, this is masculinity. So we need to understand what it is for a boy. And in my book, I talk about conscious masculinity, being about purpose. You know, people say, well, what is the opposite of vulnerability or what is the opposite of toxic masculinity?

And the opposite of both is allowing your boys to feel competent, purposeful, like they're contributing. We're taking friction out of boyhood and we're taking purpose out of manhood. And that's why our young men are flailing. So I give practical tips to families, you know, allow your son to feel his body. Boys express themselves through the body, not through the words, not through imagery like girls do. So don't force him to use his words.

Allow him to express himself through the body. Extreme physicality, sweating, embodiment, using his muscles, using his eye hand coordination. That's how a boy gets integrated into his masculinity. When he's turning 9 and 10 and 11, begin talking to him about his sexuality, about his erections, about his adult content use down the line. Bring it into the open because it's coming whether you like it or not. and then do rights of passage when he's 14 and 15 to initiate him into manhood, bring in the elder cousins and brothers and uncles, and consciously allow the boy to feel like he is entering a brotherhood,

a manhood that is a tribe. Boys are missing that today. So these are some of the things I talk about and how to do them in the book. And for girls, I talk about how girls are going through a crisis of selfhood. You know, women understand what this is because we've always been in a crisis of selfhood where we felt that we have to put on a persona and a performance in order to be, quote, unquote, validated in the so-called man's world. Well, now times that by a thousand.

She is getting inundated by messages on how she should be. And she looks really good on the outside. The modern girl is looking fantastic on the outside. She does her son salutation. She'll drink her matcha tea. She will do her morning skincare routine. and she'll make her bed. But on the inside, she's collapsing

because she's taking it all in and she's wondering, who should I be today? She's living in what I call a perception prison. So I teach parents how to deal with the girls and what they're going through specifically in the book Raising Conscious Daughters, teaching them how to not fall into the overwhelm

of comparison pressure of perfectionism, how to deal with body objectification and not fall into the, this, oh, I can be hypersexual, and that's liberation, because actually that's just another trap of falling into it for the masculine validation. So deep issues here now are up here for parents to contend with. It is not meager and it is not mild. You know, it was hard enough for a girl to grow up when I was growing up, but I can just tell you the pressure that girls face today, even though they look so competent and they're getting degrees up the wazoo and their

boss babes and they're really looking like they're crushing it, but it's a lot of pressure for them to keep up. So we need to be empathic and attuned as parents. That was really great stuff. Very interesting, yeah. Both, you know, I think about that a lot, obviously, as a father of three daughters, and, you know, we don't have any boys yet.

And we don't know if we'll be lucky enough to have one, but I do think about... But she would deal with the boys. Exactly. Like, whether we have sons or not, I spent a lot of time thinking about if my daughter's date, man, what type of men will be available to date. And what kind of boys and what they're thinking.

So you, and rightly so, well, and therefore we have to educate our daughters about what the male gaze looks like and what male sexuality is and what that'll do to her self-esteem. And, you know, she needs to be aware because our boys are being educated now by the manosphere so extremely that they're coming ready, armed with, you know, their belief systems about how girls should be treated. So we need to prepare our girls. This is what they're thinking, you know? Yeah.

Fantastic stuff. I'm sure we could talk longer. I know you have to get going. Dr. Shafali, I really appreciate taking the time. Please let us know the two books that you read. Give us the titles. Let people know where they can find them, buy them, purchase them, listen to them.

So this one is called Raising Conscious Daughters. If you are a daughter, if you have a daughter from 3 to 30, this book will give you a blueprint. It may open your eyes. It may shock you. but I think if you love your daughters, then you just have to educate yourself, become aware, and implement what's here.

And this book, Raising Conscious Sons, to me is my most daring book because I talk about things that people don't want to talk about too much, especially male sexuality and how it starts in puberty and how we need to prepare our young boys from the age of seven to be the men we want to protect our girls in the future.

So both these books come out together, and I hope you read both. Thank you so much for having me and to your audience for listening. Thank you, Dr. Schafali. I really appreciate it. Fascinating stuff. Oh, you're so sweet.

Thank you so much for having me. Well, thank you for listening, guys, and thank you to our guest, Dr. Schafali. We will see you back next week. If you haven't listened to the Harry Jowzi episode, it is a good one. Be sure to check it out. Until then, bye-bye.