The Viall Files - E119 Ben Higgins on Envy in Bachelor Nation

Episode Date: April 22, 2020

Newly engaged Ben Higgins joins Nick to talk about their relationship and how easy it is to fall into the trap of envying other people. Then Ben opens up about the struggles he is going through due to coronavirus. He also reveals his engagement plans pre-pandemic. Let’s get vulnerable! Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode! THANKS TO OUR SPONSOR: BETTERHELP: betterhelp.com/viall See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's up everybody happy wednesday welcome to another episode of the vile files i am here in the comfort of my home joined by rochelle who is also at home hello how you doing Rochelle I'm good how are you uh yeah I'm fine but you know keep on trucking but uh we'll just get right to the action uh great episode today uh my dear friend Ben Higgins uh joins me I've been meaning to have been on for some time uh was hoping to do it uh in the obviously la when we were we recorded live but obviously ben doesn't live in la and so it's been a challenge um scheduling wise scheduling wise so uh well most things are a struggle uh due to our isolation sometimes this has allowed us to uh get some guests on that uh are out of town like Jason before.

And so Ben joins us. I hope you guys really enjoyed it. I think it was great to talk to Ben. We talk about a lot of interesting things, obviously him and Jess and his new engagement and mine and Ben's relationship. Were you guys friends in Caitlin's season?

Yeah, I mean, it was one of those things where Ben was always very nice to me and Ben and I had some really great one-on-one conversations. Ben was also really close with sean i was just the outsider it was like it was almost like you know for jared and ben were very similar where they were very nice to me and they're just cool guys but it was almost like they felt like this loyalty to Sean. And therefore it was like, it just,

I just, I was the loner and they never like, they were very cool with me, but it was more like, it was pretty clear where their loyalties lied in that moment. Yeah. You know? And they,

and that was just more like they were in the 12 days that I wasn't there for filming, which is a lot in that world. They just were close with Sean. I mean, Ben lived with Sean. I mean, Ben was roommates with Sean. And therefore, I felt that the whole time. But I definitely had, like,

Ben and I had some great conversations. And it was definitely a foundation for our friendship that, you know, took off after the show. Were you, like like what were your feelings when he was named the bachelor uh i mean i was supportive of him because like i uh after caitlin season there was definitely some conversations of me being the bachelor mostly based off the fact that i was the two-time runner-up so i like i had the story but it was always Ben. And I was fully aware of that. It was like, if Ben gets hit by a bus,

we might make you The Bachelor. So you weren't heartbroken. I had no delusions that I was really seriously being considered. And so it wasn't a major disappointment when Ben was selected. So yeah, I was happy for for him i thought it was great um any envy i felt uh was more like on the obvious of like for me at that time i felt like i had gone through so much bullshit through the past two seasons and for me it felt like being named the bachelor would have been like some

sort of payoff like you deserve that's how i felt personally not that i deserved it but it was like god this all fucking sucked you know like this this was dog shit and like i didn't really do it especially for caitlin i did not go back to be the bachelor but after she broke up with me it was like well fuck it you know like i want something to come from this um And so there's a little bit of that, but not too much. If only you had known at the time you would have a hit podcast. Yeah, who would have thought?

But honestly, like Ben said, I'm glad that it happened when I did. I'm way more thankful that I became the Bachelor after Paradise rather than after Caitlin's season. I think that would have... But yeah, I had a great conversation with Ben. I hope you guys enjoy it.

As always, thank you for listening. Thanks for sending in your reviews. And thanks for sending your questions for our Ask Nick episodes at castmedia.com. Ask Nick at castmedia.com, cast with a K. If you are tuning in for the first time to check out your lovely Ben Higgins, don't forget to check us out on Mondays for our Ask Nick episodes. People seem to really enjoy it. I hope you guys do too. And either way, we appreciate you listening. So without further ado, Ben Higgins. It's such a fantastic tool and an application that our audience has really benefited from and a lot of my friends have. It's really fantastic.

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air is fresh, clean, and safe for your family. If you have ever wondered about essential oils, now is a perfect time to try it. They are perfect to, again, scent your indoor air with a diffuser. They're great for baths. You can roll them on if you're having a hard time sleeping, you're stressed about life. Essential oils are great for calming. They're great for headaches. Try us out we specialize in blends 100 usd organic uh use code natural for 30 off at nhoils.com that's code natural nhoils.com make it natural baby how's it going buddy i'm doing fantastic man it's going really well actually uh yeah you've uh life's life's i mean life should i guess i'm assuming is great for you right now obviously we're in we're in different times but uh how how's i mean give us an update

how are how are you doing yeah newly engaged congrats thank you do you want the honest update or do you want me to sugarcoat this at all i know, Ben, I don't like sugarcoating at all. You know me. Come on. I want the raw. Like if you're fighting already, I want to hear about it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, let me tell you everything.

Well, first off, I got to just give the quick disclaimer that I am recording this inside of Jessica's parents' house, and there is seven other people. So her parents, her two siblings. So listen to this. I'll answer your question, but here's the setup of my life right now, and it's been actually fantastic. So they live in Franklin, Tennessee. I started out in Warsaw, Indiana with my parents because that's where I flew home from the tour to. Jessica came and got me and we drove down here about three weeks ago. Her older brother and his wife are house hunting in Nashville. So they're living at her parents' house right now. Her other brother is a professional baseball player. And so they obviously had to get sent home. So he came back home and then Jessica and I are here. So literally there's seven of us in this house and it's been awesome, especially for the engagement piece. And so Jessica and I are doing fantastic. It is the coolest thing. It is the best thing my engagement is just super peaceful. Like that doesn't happen very much in my life. I don't feel a lot of like peace when it comes to most things. And so I'm

very peaceful, very excited, super happy, definitely happy that it happened. It was like months in the planning and then all the plans got changed last minute. And so I'm glad that is in a sense over with so we can like not have that looming over us anymore. Here's the bad part about my life right now is over the last three years, I've invested and bought three restaurants and two coffee shops. Those things are doing really bad right now. I know. We text a little bit and I am very sorry to hear that. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. We text a little bit and I am very sorry to hear that. Yeah. So the benefit of life for me is realizing that if I lose everything, I'm still okay. Meaning that my identity does not lie in what I have. The sad part of that is I've worked... I've tried to work hard and often so that I could do those things so that later on in life, I could have the freedom and the time to invest in my family and friends. That part is sad. I don't know what this looks like in six months for me when it comes to those investments. But with all that being said is then I have this engagement and this partner who looks at me and looks past all of those things, knowing that there's a lot of fear right now with what's happening. Uh, it just says like, well, we'll make it work no matter what. And so like all over overall good, but behind the scenes,

like it isn't uncommon for me to go, Holy crap, I might lose everything. Totally. I, so I mean, I am curious cause we have, you know, we text a little bit, but this is an interesting topic just because there's a lot of people dealing with this right now. Restaurants, bartenders, waiters, anyone in the kind of service industry are people who are hit very hard about this. What's the landscape look like in terms of, do you have the option to kind of put the pause button on and hope that when things get going, you can run your business and keep it going? And what's your biggest risk in terms of, let's say this goes on for four or five months, maybe you even have like a break-even date. But what's at risk in terms of a guarantee that, like, we'll just pick it up when things get back to normal? Is it just like the rent? Or how does that all work?

Well, to not bore the listeners, I'll go over a quick, because it is somewhat interesting to go behind the scenes a little bit. And so obviously the government, like PPP loans have helped. The idea that we can get small business loans to support our business and our payroll is helpful. The other side of this is I was on tour when we found out that there was going to be a shutdown. And the entertainment industry, like the crew setup and teardown industry is

very similar to the restaurant industry when it comes to your cooks and your people that are hostessing and waiters and waitresses. There is a side of this that I've been able to see on both sides. And it's been honestly really sad. I spent a lot life kind of trying to figure out how to combat poverty and crisis. And I had never seen it really in the U S quite honestly, I'd seen homelessness and stuff, but I'd never seen people's lives get rocked. And when you get told, Hey, you live in New York city in LA and your job that you have counted on is going to be gone and we can't pay you. Uh, and I mean that for both the entertainment industry and restaurants. It's really scary. And so then your mindset as an owner goes to, well, how are you going to support these people? Again, the loans help. Beyond all of that,

you had to get creative. So we are doing pickup and delivery. I do have three restaurants that I'm a part of, but there's 10 restaurants in total. We've consolidated all of our restaurants down to one building. And so we're doing pickup and delivery out of one building. So we're sharing resources and staff. And then we're using one of our other buildings right now. This is crazy. This will blow your mind. And I say all this because I think it's really interesting. And I can take no credit for this. We have had an incredible team of people that have led this effort. Three hospitality groups in Denver have now joined together, shared resources, shared staff, shared finances, and are feeding 5,000

people a day right now for $6 a piece meals out of one of our buildings to keep people who are hurting and unfortunately suffering with food. So I would say with all that being said, there's been new strategies in place to keep people fed, to keep them healthy, to keep them feeling supported because they are. The side of that from a business sense is we've built in levers now that I've never had to build in before. So say we were meeting 60% of estimated sales. Well, then there's a lever I pull and it says, I have to fire myself or I have to decrease funds by this much for myself. Or hey, a next lever is half that lay off the staff. And then the next lever is, hey, I've got to close down the buildings and the businesses and pretty much go out and start

hunting for either new capital to infuse into just to keep it open if people want to believe in me and believe in us, or I have to close the door. So I've pulled all three levers with different businesses so far. Some are going to be fine. I was talking to Jess earlier. I think one of my coffee shops is really going to have a hard time getting back and going again. But again, if you talk to some of the smartest minds out there like senators are meeting with us right now as a hospitality group going what kind of stuff can we put in place to help you all like nobody knows what's going to happen next like nobody knows how this shakes out and and that's the scary part and uh and we're just trying to figure out how to make it work so that's kind of how we've done it is there's just different levers at different times

well i appreciate you sharing with that I think it is interesting for our audience. And there's a lot of people impacted by this particular, you know, this industry. And there's a lot of people who listen who are bartenders and waiters and in the restaurant business. So it is very relatable. And I certainly wish you the best that the thing you're doing with getting people meals, is that something you can plug? Or restaurant business. So it is very relatable and I certainly wish you the best that, um, the, the thing you're doing with getting people meals, is that something you can plug or can you direct people who are in the Colorado area or Indiana where, where can people find this and benefit from it and how, how can people support it if, if they want to try to do that as well? Yeah, so definitely. So you can go to, uh, my Instagram and see a link for it, but it's the

Colorado restaurant rescue is the Rescue is the pop-up that happened from this. You can donate to that. I'll be honest right now with the help of the Boston Consulting Group because they're one of our partners and a few other. We've raised enough money to do this for about six weeks. And so I'm hoping at six weeks, the need is no longer there. If it is, I think we're going to have to even get more creative on what we're doing. Here's my call to action is all it took was three privileged businesses to go out and say, hey, we all are fighting this. We all know there's a need. We're better together than we are alone. Can we start doing this together and figure out how to help? And my call to action is you can do that in your own community. It doesn't take Denver. There are people right now that I know that you know are

struggling. Again, everybody's been affected. So start going to do something like that. It's crazy to think that people who six weeks ago who were working a really stable job, no longer have any income coming in. And that fear and that heaviness on their heart has to be helped. And we can only do it if we join together to do it. So yeah, you can help me out. That'd be awesome. I have a couple other things I can plug throughout the podcast I'm sure we'll talk about ways to help. But the biggest way right now is just going to do some stuff on your own too. Ben, how long have you been in philanthropy? You're always a very impressive person, even from the moment I met you. But you've been doing this for so long. I mean, what made you passionate about it? How'd you get into it?

You know, it's interesting, Nick. I think selfishly uh there was this like i always wanted to have a seat at the table meaning like i always wanted to be invited in to be a part of something and then selfishly i always wanted to feel like what i was doing mattered and so i think uh my philanthropy started in a selfish desire to feel like i was making a difference. And I feel like that's an okay place to start, especially before I was educated on what the true injustice that we see out there that we were fighting. And so I got into this when I was 15 years old. A quick story was I went to Honduras for the first time and I saw true poverty, like starvation, lack of water, lack of healthcare, no healthcare healthcare, no healthcare, really,

no education, no access to any city, no access to any air conditioning, no access to any necessities or any things that we enjoy and luxury in life. And I left that and my worldview was rocked. As a believer in Jesus and a God that loves and cares, I saw this and I said, no way these two things can relate. And it messed me up to the point where I needed to pursue either giving up all hope and all faith that there was something greater than ourselves or figuring out how those two things when it comes to extreme injustice and a God that loves how those two things align. when it comes to extreme injustice and a God that loves how those two things align.

And luckily for me, I guess now is those two things over a lot of wrestling have aligned in my life. And now that's why I do it because I believe it matters. I just believe now that there's a purpose to it, even if my intentions originally were wrong. And so really since I was 15, I've been on the path. And now that I, uh, it's now something I can actually do. And then you give up, you have a platform handed to you from a show and the impact is greater. I laugh often. I say, uh, you know, uh, I, I've really have been a part of this kind of stuff for a while. It's just funny that I have to go on a reality television show for people to want to listen. So like, um, that's true for me is now I have a platform handed to me and now people listen and now my impact can be great. And I, I don't take that lightly, but I really enjoy it. Yeah. You've always, uh, you've always been a great role model, even, even to me. Um, uh, and, uh, it has been fantastic. I mean, it's, uh, you've always been an inspiration and, uh, and I don't mean that lightly. I don't, I don't compliment, uh, easily, but, uh, you've always been, you've always been great that way. So I, I appreciate you, uh, putting that out there and

continue to be even a role model to me. And it's funny when you talk about the show and I know you and I have talked about this offline, but you know, it's like, even when we text back and forth and when we get together once in a while, we kind of always have these moments where we reflect back on kind of the pros and cons of the show, right? That have impacted our lives. The platform we've been given, right? And the opportunity to do the things that you just talked about but then we also kind of talk about like the mental anguish we've we've kind of endured both from you know just being on the show and our personalities and it's kind of funny because I know people look at you as kind of this very polished person and very put together and this charmed life. But you're an example of someone who, like everyone else,

has their own insecurities and struggles. And it's just always kind of funny when you, even for me, sometimes I will, you know, like I'll look at you when we talk. And like I sometimes will even be envious of you. I'll even have jealousy of you in terms of like comparing your time on the show or my time on the show. And it's just, it's always kind of like every time I talk to you, it's sometimes a great reminder, a humbling experience that everyone has their own problems. And I was wondering if you could just kind of share that with, you know, a little bit

in terms of, you know, some of the things that you talk about and struggle with. And despite all the things that you're doing, we all have our struggles. Yeah, you make a great point. And you have always been a unique outlet to talk about those things with. It takes comfort, safety, and a big person to be able to sit across the table and say, yeah, like I struggle, like that doesn't happen. I don't think very often in life. And typically in my life, it either happens with my therapist or like Jessica. Um, it, you know, it doesn't, it's not a common, um, conversation, but, uh, one of the things that, you know, we talk about often is the envy piece. Like, gosh, like it is, it is a weakness of mine. And I don't say weakness in

terms of like a, Oh, this is my week, like my problem. And I take it lightly. No, like it is, it is a weakness of mine. And I don't say weakness in terms of like a, oh, this is my weak, like my problem. And I take it lightly. No, like envy is a constant battle with me. Uh, I am envious all the time. I have to battle. Like I, my mind can go to some pretty dark places, especially when I'm living in the midst of envy. Like if I look on my Instagram and I see somebody thriving, I would hate for the world to see some of the thoughts that go through my head. It is ugly. It is disgusting. It is bad.

And the truth of it is I've acted on that envy at some points, and it never ends well. And so I think I've just learned from blessing. Do you remember an example? I think mostly dismissing people. I think mostly just seeing something on social media and dismissing them in a sense as a person or dismissing their happiness or saying, I wish they weren't happy. And then I meet them in person. I sit across the table from them and I hear their story and I'm like, no, no, no. Then how wrong you were to assume that everything was perfect? Or if it was perfect, how about you start celebrating the fact that for the first time in maybe years, they're happy and they're finding joy in life?

Like how cruel do you have to be? Specific examples, mostly, honestly, I probably try to block out because I'm embarrassed of them. But I think that is one thing. And I could go on and on and on about how envy has affected me. But from lessons learned in my life and how wrong I've been so often, I know that my first response to envy now is to try to find a way to get rid of it because acting on it or pursuing it has never been healthy or helpful for me. So the second thing is, for me. So the second thing is, and I don't know, I mean, it's better than the opposite, I would say, but I don't know the exact reasoning for why people assume like perfection in me. I mean, the show doesn't help me, right? The tagline was the perfect ben um that's great but it definitely sets you up it's better than it's better than fourth time's a charm ben oh yeah i mean i i'm not mad about it but it

is you know it is nick like this interesting thing where like i'm glad it's i'm glad that people like presume like polishedness i guess but i also struggle with that because like it's not who i am it's not who i want to be it's it's it's i'm it's it's hard on me to keep up with and if i try to keep up with it it feels fake because it's not it's not me it never has been how long how long do you feel like you were trying to keep up with it from when you were on caitlin season and most specifically you know when you were the bachelor um because i you know, the expectation, you know, Caitlin's season, it was just like, everyone loved you, you were great. And then they kind of gave you the expectation of being perfect.

And then, you know, it's, we all hear, you know, praise and criticism from fans and, and both I'm, I'm, I'm a big believer that the praise actually hurts you more in the long run than criticism. But do you feel like you, for a long time, were trying to live up to those expectations? I mean, I think yes. And I think I still do in a sense of, again, if we go back to what we started with here, it's assuming that every person's story matters. And so if I go into every conversation and every interaction with the curiosity of, hey, I just want to hear who you are and I want to respond to who you are, then people are going to leave that going, oh, wow, he's a nice guy. Or, hey, he cares.

Or whatever other words you want to throw to that. That's great. And I hope to always keep that up. And I hope to always have that desire. The second thing that is, I remember the moment where I said, screw it. I know what I want to be doing and I'm going to pursue it passionately. One of that is after a breakup, you throw everything out and you're like, screw it. I'm just going to do what I want to do now. And that's when, you know, generous coffee started. And it's, it's where I left my software job and I, uh, took some risks in life. And I said, I'm just going to go do this thing and see where it takes

me. I'm going to be a rebel without a cause. The second is I, when I posted, you like that? It's not how people define me. That's your rebel without a cause is opening a coffee shop. That's awesome. You like that? That's your rebel without a cause is opening a coffee shop. That's awesome. I was in Honduras, and I took a picture in a community, and we were raising money to develop a pig project. We were going to raise pigs, sell pigs for women to have jobs in this community.

I get that that is a little controversial for some. I don't, but I posted about this and the response was incredibly negative. Why? I mean, because people didn't like the idea that pigs were going to be sold for slaughter. And people didn't understand the depravity and the poverty that existed within Honduras and how crucial this kind of work is to keep them fed

and to keep them having any job at all. And I remember at that time being really pissed off because I was like, you have like wanting to yell at everybody that was commenting, like you have no idea what you're talking about because they really did it and they still didn't. And the second is,

hey, I have prayed through this, meditated through this. I know that jobs for women in these communities is right. And I know this is one of the only options to provide that. We've weighed the pros and the cons. And I believe this is the right thing. And so I'm going to stop worrying so much about maybe getting everybody on my team for the common good and saying, I'm going to try my best, even though I know I'm going to mess up, to pursue the right thing the best I know how.

And so that's when I gave up really worrying about the public opinion. It's still a lens that I process things through. If somebody calls me boring and. Like I get it. I get why you're saying that. I understand that about myself. I'll process that. But it's not going to affect me maybe like it used to. Does that, I mean, it's funny. So, and we've talked about this. When people will comment, oh, Ben's boring.

Does that, that bothers you? Oh, I mean, yes. It still bothers me today. Like, especially if it's somebody that I love and care about and that knows me like they, you know, sometimes you have a friend that says something that they don't even know they're saying. You have friends say this to you? Yeah, you definitely like some of the hardest things have been when friends say things to you about your show or about you as a person, or maybe you did an interview or,

you know, maybe for example, I've been in LA and not Denver for too long. And I come back and a friend throws a jab at me about that. Like how I've been gone and how it's finally catching up with me. Like that stuff hurts. Oh, that's, oh, it's just like, oh, you're different. You know? Yeah. That's, yeah. It takes a certain person to say that to you, but you're right. There are certain people you're like, I get very defensive about stuff like that. Definitely. And it stings. The initial blow hurts. And I'm trying to develop the skill set to process it through a lens and take a deep breath. And obviously having Jessica in my life helps because then I can call her and be like, this person said this. Is it true? Is it not? Or I can call my parents and process it through them. People that I know have my best interests. And typically, we come out on the other side just

fine. But yeah, it does hurt, still hurts. It has not stopped hurting. I mean, you're a multiple business owner. You're in Honduras. You're on tour. I don't see how that's boring, but I guess that's just me. Very non-boring life. We all have our scars. It was funny. I remember being in Vegas with you, and this person, it was back to back. It was nice to see it happen to you because like I get like we talked about envy. Like I have gotten I mean, I get envious of you all the time.

I mean, I have multiple times been on a phone with a Bachelor producer and, you know, who knows what the context is or what the conversation is. But I've said multiple times, it's just like, I know I'm not fucking Ben Higgins, but like, what the fuck? You know, like I'll be like bitching about something. higgins but like what the fuck you know like i'll be like bitching about something and like usually it's out of context but there's often this like jealousy or envy and it's usually in my own head because i have a great relationship with them about like this you know how everyone loves bet you know and like when i'm at my weakest or i'm at my most vulnerable like i'll like you're like this like i love you but sometimes you're my own demons punching back for being like, well, I know I can't, like, I know I'm not bad. Like what the, you know, and I do it, I do it

all the time. Isn't it weird how that happens though? Because it's not like you and I have had a disagreement or a contentious moment in our friendship. And it's not like there hasn't been space for the both of us, but let's use you and I as an example, and then also expand that to that still happens today with people that are on the show, or maybe not even on the show, but maybe they've gotten a gig that I've wanted or something like that. And when I'm at my weakest or I'm hurt, that is a response that I have. And if you break it all down, come from like the view looking up top it's like well why like what is what are we trying to do there like ultimately

nick i don't want to see you suffer i know you don't want to see me suffer we want to see each other do well but yet there is that pull to like also have a lot of envy and saying why can't it be me or why can't i be that yeah no totally and't I be that? Yeah, no, totally. And it's, I don't know why. I wish it was easier to explain. It's ego. I mean, we're all victims of our own ego. And I think it's nice to hear you being open about it just because of how people do perceive you, right? And in a positive way. But, you know, we have these moments of weaknesses and again it was i remember being in vegas and it was like and it'll happen to me and like what will happen is like when a fan comes up to me and for whatever reason when they try to relate to me it's like

they want me to know that they're a fan and the way they do this is by like and they don't mean to by criticizing me but they'll be like i never hated you i know a lot of people hate you but i like you and then i i witnessed like moments later some fan going up to you and saying i never thought you were boring like i've always thought you were great and that was like it's like you like and then like you you i saw the look on your face that it was like the same feeling I have. It was like, why do you got to say that to me? Because all I'm thinking about is, wait, I didn't think people still hated me.

Or you're like, I didn't think people thought I was boring yet. And it's just funny how it scratches at the scab or the scar or whatever. It really does. You're not wrong, Nick. like the scab or the scar or whatever, but it's... It really does. Yeah. You're not wrong, Nick. I mean, that is a common... That is not an unfamiliar feeling. If you want to hurt me, I've always told everybody, it's pretty easy. Like, I'm not superhuman.

You could hurt me pretty easy, pretty good. And because of this experience, I've allowed a lot of people, millions of people, the ability to hurt me with just a few words if they wanted. But with that, I've also gained some strength and some callous and confidence that it's not going to crush me. But, hey, for anybody out there listening, you can still hurt me if that is what you're wanting to do during this time. That's what you want to do. Yeah, but I think it's just more important just more, more important to remember that, like, that's, that's kind of everybody, right? Like, you know, even your best friends or your spouse

or whatever, or, and, and I think that's when we struggle with the most is when we are honest with ourselves and having these feelings about people. You're like, why do I feel this way? You know? Cause like you said, that's not that you don't have an animosity towards this person. You love this person. You like them. You wish them success. And sometimes our own egos or selfishness or insecurities will bring up kind of the worst, as you say, desires that makes us like almost feel dirty inside for even thinking about it, let alone saying it. Yeah, no, you're right. And to finish your point there is one of the things that as I talked about, like lessons in life when I've envied, oftentimes when say, Nick, you would land a gig that I really wish I would have had

that I was up for and they give it to you. And I sit at home and I'm mad and I'm angry and I'm sad and I'm coming up with a thousand excuses. And then you get the gig and I see either, one, how well it fit you and how bad it would have fit me. And I say this as an example of kind of life. No, same. I mean, and it works both ways with you. What kind of things did he get that you wanted? I mean, you know, Nick is out there often. I told him this last time I saw him,

I was like, man, I texted him every once in a while. I was like, it feels like you're thriving. And here, you know, there's moments like I texted him at one point I was on a tour bus driving through like, you know, some God forsaken town that nobody ever visits. And I'm, you know, performing to an audience of people that'll never see again. And it's like, man, it feels like you're thriving and I'm living on a tour bus and I haven't slept in two weeks. So that is a thing. Or the other side of that is you maybe see how your life was better because you didn't get the gig.

Or maybe you didn't get the opportunity and how it opened up you for new opportunities. And so I just say all this to say life makes sense over time. And if we step in every time we feel envious thinking we know best, we're going to quickly be wrong. And I'm starting to try to get better at that. Yeah, that's a great point in terms of the cliche line of unanswered prayers or things like that um letting things the way letting things work themselves out but you're right i mean and that and you're right like they're even um even the the the bachelor live show for example like there was definitely

some envy i mean the truth is i don't know if i would have wanted it or liked it but what bothered me is like i wasn't even asked or can you know, like, you know, you get to ask, but it was just like, you want to be wanted. It's just, it's so petty that we have these feelings sometimes. And, and you're right. Like then you realize like, no, that does make sense. He's really good at that. Like he thrives in that atmosphere.

And then it's, you know, the grass is always greener. It's sometimes nice to talk about it and share it and put it out there. It's sometimes nice to talk about it and share it and put it out there, I think, just because everyone has these feelings. And it's, I will say, like, I don't know, let me ask you this. Like, when you hear something from me saying, oh, man, like, that really bothered me. Like, when you are vulnerable with me and you tell me that you are struggling, I feel bad, but it makes me feel better because it makes me feel like I'm not alone. No, that's it. You just said it. I think when vulnerability exists, I'm believing in the last year that our true connection point as people is shared pains. We've all had a pain or a disappointment. So when you share a pain with me, I believe I can connect with you and enjoy you more than if you just continue to brag to me about how many great things you're doing in

life. Because one, I'll probably believe that you're thriving and I'll be like, look at my own life and be like, I mean, I feel like I'm doing all right. I feel like I'm good. I'm engaged. I'm super happy about that. Life is full of so much joy. I'm unemployed. The tour that I was doing no longer exists. You still have a podcast. I still have a podcast. But yeah, when we share our vulnerabilities and pains and insecurities, I almost think it might be impossible if you're a decent human to look across the table and not say, I feel a little bit better because I've just realized how wrong I was. And now there's freedom in knowing that I'm not alone. And there's freedom in knowing that we're all in this together. And there's freedom in knowing that I'm not missing the mark by not feeling completely at peace or completely on top all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're right. Thank you for, thank you for sharing about that. Have you talked much about what you were going to do with Jess from a proposal standpoint? I don't want to be too redundant, but have you, like, how did you have to pivot and what was the plan that you were going to do? Dude, it's wild. I've talked a little bit about it, not much, and she doesn't know all of it. And so there's some secrets because I do want to recreate it at some point in our life. Fair enough. Did you think about just proposing it? I mean, just postponing it and doing it later? Kind of.

But here's the truth of it is how long are we going to be in isolation for? And so I had asked her father's blessing in December, just did know that. She knew that I was doing that. And then I stopped all intentional conversations with her on purpose from December until whenever the proposal was, because I wanted her to be surprised. I wanted her to be a little thrown off and shocked. until whenever the proposal was because I wanted her to be surprised. I wanted her to be a little thrown off and shocked. Well, it was getting long enough that I think she was like, I'm supposed to be moving to Denver at some point this year. I don't know when. My lease is up in my house. I'm moving in with my parents now for an indefinite amount of time. Ben hasn't talked to me about

what our future looks like in three to four months. I'm now confused about that. And so I knew that I was not doing her any favors by keeping it going. Like it was, it was starting to feel almost like I was manipulating my partner who like that. And like, that wasn't a fun feeling, especially when you love them. Um, so I, in March 21st was going to propose to her when we were in New York city for the tour, I had a big thing planned. It was going to be really beautiful. Her family is off in the East coast. Uh, so her cousins and her grandmother were going to be, uh, be around in the next few days. Um, and then obviously the tour got canceled. And so right away I called her mom and I called my mom and I said, Hey, we're obviously gonna have to pivot. Uh, what do you think? And, um, it just so happens to be that her family lives in a beautiful house here in Franklin, Tennessee, we're obviously going to have to pivot. What do you think? And it just so happens

to be that her family lives in a beautiful house here in Franklin, Tennessee, and it has a pond in the backyard. And her mom's like, well, let's just decorate it with sunflowers. It's going to be isolated. There's not going to be people around. We can have a safe environment. Let's just do it there. So quite frankly, it ended up better because her brothers were able to be there, which they weren't going to be there in New York City. And she loves her brothers dearly and her sister-in-law. So the original plan was New York City. That's about as far as I've talked.

It was two months of planning this proposal, just to let you know of what kind of detail went into this. Yeah, it was going to be a big deal. And instead, we just did it in the backyard, and that's even better i kind of i mean this is me i like that i mean i'm not a planner at all so the fact that you spent two months planning something both gives me anxiety and envy that you can do that but i love the simplicity of of of a being you know with the family and spur of the moment. And certainly, I'm guessing, doesn't take away from the excitement that I'm sure you both shared. It definitely didn't.

If anything, it added to it. Because we walked right inside afterwards, and her brother is a great chef, and he cooked a huge dinner. And we opened up bottles of wine, and we celebrated, and we laughed with family, and we opened up bottles of wine and we celebrated and we laughed with family and we shared old like pictures of, of Jess. And, um, it took, if anything, it added to it. Like it, we went to bed that night and I said, this was as good as anything I could have

ever planned. Oh, what's, um, I, I mean, uh, obviously with, uh, the current times, again, there's still a lot of unknown, certainly when it comes to weddings and get togethers. But despite that, do you guys expect to have a longer engagement? Are you guys anxious to tie the knot? Where are you guys with that? It's funny. The only other person that really asked me this is Harrison.

And I can't remember if we did it like on one of his little chats or if he just did it as a friend. But I was like, I want to be clear here. This is not a bachelor engagement. We are engaged to pursue marriage and start planning a wedding immediately. So that's the- We'll get married in a decade. Yeah. Let's be clear there.

The second is, I think ideally we would have had a short engagement. I think it is unwise of us. And we're kind of discussing this right now. Like today, I'm supposed to come to the table with my pros and my, or my, my must haves for the wedding, like things I need and desire. And she's going to do the same. We're also supposed to come to the table with our guest list today. I have a feeling it's going to be a longer engagement and here's why. One, as you mentioned, we don't know what this virus is going to affect. It could be here another two months, two and a half months. At that point, weddings are going to be pushed back, venues are going to be booked, and I don't want to add stress

to a really fun and joyful time knowing that this is the real deal. The second is, as I mentioned before, her brother plays professional baseball. So there's a very short season of freedom that he isn't playing that we can get married. So it's kind of managing and navigating, well, when does his season start up? If it starts up end of August and it goes into the end of the year, year well then is it a spring wedding well what if we're back on tour at that time like i don't know we don't know yet but we're trying to figure it out but it's almost impossible to figure it out when we're being told hey it might be locked down till june like could you imagine could you imagine yourselves um kind of

eloping at least with like yeah your parents her family her brothers um and just like get married and then have the celebration with friends and the big ceremony later just because it's like hey i don't like i want to marry you now or whenever you guys are actually ready uh yeah what are your thoughts on that yeah well it's why we're coming to that was part of our conversation and so we kept going in circles about this because we both were like, yeah, we could definitely see it. But what are we giving up to do that? And so that's why we said, okay, let's separate, write down our must-haves for a wedding and

see if an elopement or whatever you call it could work. I could see that. And then having a big celebration with everybody later. That could be fun and exciting and a lot less stress. But then again, like at the end of all of this, this is Jess's day. Like this is our day as a couple. But like I want to make sure that she has the wedding she's always dreamed of and that she feels celebrated. The hard part about being engaged during isolation is that she hasn't seen any of her friends. So I don't know this, but it feels almost like, hey, we got engaged. And I don't know if my fiance feels as celebrated as I know people feel for her because she hasn't had any human contact with anybody. And Zoom's great, but it's a little bit of a disconnect. And so, yes, I could see it being a possibility.

I don't know if that would be the case. I wouldn't be shocked, but I also wouldn't assume that that will happen. Sure. I mean, I don't know Jess that well. I've only hung out with her over a weekend. She's lovely. But she doesn't strike me as someone who would put all that much emphasis on those things especially since they're out of her control you know in terms of like feeling engaged would probably mostly become come from

uh the proposal that she got from you because that's let's be honest there's a lot of people who are like that we're like the feeling of an engagement has a lot to do with people's excitement or response to you being engaged or the size of the ring or the size of the like all these material things that kind of go into and quite frankly a lot of people uh get caught up in that whole kind of ceremony and process and then all of a sudden when you're married and that's all over it's almost like filming a reality tv show where like the hype and the drama like that all goes away and now you're just like well now you're together and it's all over and i think sometimes when people get caught too much up in the theatrics of the engagement the proposal the ring the ceremony etc etc it

it it uh it loses a little bit of a spunk when it's all said and done. And yeah, I mean, I get that it's enjoyable, but just doesn't strike me as someone who would get caught up in all that. She doesn't. No, she's, I mean, it's not affected her negatively at all. I just really want her when it comes to the wedding to be able to have her wedding. Like if she dreamed of looking out and seeing all 56 of her cousins, which is something she has there.

She has 56 cousins? She's an Italian. No. So our Christmas this year that I went to, I think, had 56 or 60 total people. And they were all first cousins. It's wild, dude. I mean, I don't have any brothers or sisters. And my family is super small. So

if she desires that and wants that in her life, I want to be able to give that to her. And then it's like, okay, how do we get there? I will tell you this. Here's a really good way is I know people right now. I just have a friend that had to cancel their wedding and it was a $50,000 wedding and they got nothing back from it. So not a dime. I know more people that are having to pause and push back their weddings than ever before. I don't think this is a time to add extra stress to a really great thing. And it feels like it is.

thing um and it feels like it is yeah and i just want to say i appreciated the wedding announcement because it's like something fun and normal everything else feels awful that it's like nice to have these like little celebrations of good stuff yeah i and i was uh i was really happy when you sent me you got i got a text from bed in the morning and you know what? I didn't feel any envy. That's healthy. I felt good about that. It was a little bit of like, fuck, man, really? God, it's just like there was comfort in you being single for a while. And again, it's mostly because I don't have a problem with me being single.

I really don't. I'd like to meet someone. Like when you get annoyed about the boredom comments, it's like, I do feel this pressure to be in a relationship and what it looks like, this perception of being single. I've talked about this before. Like, I'm not as single as I look. I just don't, you know, give day-by-day like descriptions of like my love life, right? It's not like I'm roaming life, like haven of like my love life right it's not like i'm roaming life like haven't like had any communications with women it's just i haven't you know found my person yet but uh yeah there was like i wasn't there wasn't a lot of envy and i honestly thought to myself

there would be just because there's a connection that you and i have as former leads and the expectations of being in a relationship, it's kind of nuts that way. But I was very happy to hear that you guys got that. And it was a delightful text that I woke up to. Well, and you have a lot of listeners to this podcast. I'm sure there's somebody out there right now that's probably like a therapist or a counselor that are going, Ben and Nick, here's your problem. It's very clear. Like, you know, you both have been a part of a shared thing. You both have very similar interests.

You both are trying your best to make the most of an opportunity that had been handed to you. This is why, you know, there is that feeling of like, gosh, dang it, I'm not as good or doing as well as the other person. The truth is, is like, we both have really great things going and we both are, you know, romantically, we're both maybe in different seasons, but at the same time, like there's positives to being single and there's really, I hope, positives to being engaged and married. I don't know that yet, but I'm assuming that. That's why I'm making this choice and walking into this. And if we start looking at it from more of the side of like hey you know again i don't want to see nick like fall off like that would be terrible we've had that

happen to our friends that we know from the show that we've probably felt envy for at some moment and all of a sudden like they've fallen off and and we it crushes like I mean it crushes the soul like it's not ever fulfilling when we see somebody else struggle so I mean I yeah I get it like I don't think you're you're off like I feel that same way um but I'm starting to believe there's room for all of us yeah totally what's some uh what's one thing that you and Jess are not necessarily fight about but where your personalities don't mesh as much as you would like to and and something that you feel like you guys are going to have to be conscious of as you move into a more committed relationship especially as

you know the pressures of like having kids or dealing with financial struggles or just anything like in terms of conflict that you guys have had to face yeah the first one that comes to mind is that she her hair sheds so much um it's ridiculous like i have shared a shower with her uh right now um she is has a bedroom upstairs at her parents house i'm in the back downstairs but there's a big bathroom downstairs so she uses it and like her drain is constantly clogged um that's a big struggle. I got to figure that out. I came to the solution there. It's two separate bathrooms. The real like heavy thing, the meaningful thing is we recognize this in each other right away. So we both confidently based on our experiences in life, believe in Jesus and believe that Jesus exists and is real and is active.

And so we'll go to church together. And I think our, like the, the minute and smaller details of kind of how we enjoy worship and, and how we connect with God. And then in addition to that kind of, you know, just typical like denominational differences,

like I'll get out of a church service and I'll start talking about it right away and she needs to process it. And then it becomes an argument just like, well, church has for years with people because maybe we've disagree on like the smallest of things and we turn it into a bigger issue. And so we've learned if it's important to both of us

to talk about our faith and talk about how we process our relationship with Jesus, then we have to be very wise in how we do it so that it is a fun conversation and not one that the church has struggled with for years, which becomes contentious and ugly. Yeah, that can be a big challenge. It's definitely good that you guys are aware of that now because I think when it comes to stuff like that, there's an expectation of not having a fight about something that's perceived as a really good thing. And then you do, and then you have the added pressure of being like, well, if we're fighting about this,

this must be a big problem. And then you want to force your perspective on the other person. And, and, and then you added so much pressure. So that can be really tough. You know, when things, especially religion, it's like, it's such a challenge when, when you're, when your beliefs are pretty closely aligned, but then there's some different, like, that's actually harder than when people are on two opposite ends of the spectrum, because you're aware of those differences and you're like, you understand them. But sometimes there's a built-in expectation of, well, wait, I thought we thought exactly the same thing. And when you don't, that can be,

that can be a challenge. It can be disappointing. So it's good that you guys know that. Yeah. And I mean, a lot of our relationship has been working from a distance and so convert like communication has been key like we haven't been ever ever in the same city living together so um you know a lot of our conversation like a lot of our time is spent on the phone and conversing about our needs and desires and our wants and figuring out how that looks. And I would never do it any other way because it's helped us get to this point, but it has needed transparent, clear conversations about some really tough things to get us to a point now where I can confidently look her in the eyes and say, hey, we've been stuck in a house together for two weeks and I'm

having a blast. It's been great. What are some things, I i mean we get a lot of people asking about long distance relationships and uh usually i tell people like the only way to get through a long distance relationship is to try to make it not one over time but as you've just said you've you've met a woman fallen in love with a woman and got engaged to a woman all via long distance and eventually obviously she's going to move you said, but you've been able to create this love and this engagement all based off a distance. What's some things that have worked for you guys? And what are some struggles that you guys have had to overcome? You know, my best piece of advice is one that I think most people like get confused by when I say it is we've never communicated our sadness, not in terms of life

or not in terms of variables outside of our relationship. But when we leave each other or when we're missing each other, we have chosen not to communicate that unless it's in a healthy, uplifting way. Because if every time I dropped Jessica off at the airport and I was like, I'm so sad, or she was like, I'm so sad. And we, or maybe like three days before she even leaves, we start saying, it's going to be so sad when you leave. It's going to just carry this heaviness over our relationship. That's no fun. And we knew that we're going to have to be apart. Like that's, we're not stopping that. That's part of our lives. It's part of the commitment we're making. And it's what you get for dating me. And it's what I get for dating Jessica. So that was one thing and it's helped us a ton because our communication is typically positive

and uplifting. The second is we've never left each other without having a plan on when to see each other again. So I always know that when I drop her off at the airport or when I say goodbye to her, I always know the next time I'm seeing her and she knows the same thing. That's helped us a ridiculous amount. Even more than like communication during the day or any of that, those two variables have helped us stay very healthy, happy, and confident in our relationship because there has been very little left unsaid because we've wanted to talk to each other and we want to see each other and we know when we see each other again. That's fantastic advice.

Yeah, I can see why that can have an impact and it's really smart of you guys. I did not think of that, Ben. So thanks for sharing that. I think a lot of people in the audience will appreciate. Before we let you go. Can I ask one question before we play? Yeah.

I just really want to hear about the tour because it sounds insane to me, like sleeping on that bus. And I heard there's like, I don't know, like I couldn't do it. I don't think being around people all the time and like, what's it been like? Rochelle, it was wild.

We're going to get back in January, it seems like, with our next dates. When Nick kind of said it earlier, when I was first asked, there's very little that I knew about it. Yeah. So here is an overview of what it was. It had its moments of being really hard. You're on a tour bus traveling down a road sometimes for 15 hours at a time and you're in a little bedroom in the back and like i had it lucky like my bedroom was pretty nice people were staying in bunks uh then you pull up to a theater and you get to use everything a

theater offers theaters that are like hundreds of years old sometimes and all of them are beautiful but not a lot of them are very nice per se. You're around, you know, we had 2,500 people pretty much a night at these shows, huge audiences that love Bachelor Nation, but it's tiring. I mean, you aren't getting a lot of sleep. Dinner typically was served at like 11 o'clock at night after the show because you can't really,

you don't really have time to eat beforehand. So you're eating and drinking at like 11 o'clock, going to bed at one, and then I still work. I was still doing generous. And so I had meetings at eight that I'd have to be up and ready for. But overall, it was an incredibly unique experience. Is it what I want to be doing in 10 years? I don't know. But for the time being it was really fun really crazy unlike anything i expected uh and bachelor nation is everywhere that's the that's the biggest takeaway is like like cheyenne wyoming great following um yeah kennewick washington great Great crowd. Yeah. And that part was cool to see people from all over. But, you know, honestly, we were doing it for about a month and a half when it stopped.

And it's been kind of nice taking a break. And then we'll get back and going again. And I'll be refreshed and ready to go. You like working with Becca? I do a lot. Yeah, she's really good. She's really talented. It took us some time.

Not like we had issues with each other, but it took us some time to feel out how to co-host together. Again, Nick, if you go back to the envy, my ego would get in the way and hey, Becca, that should be my joke or hey, Becca, this is my moment to talk and I would have those feelings

and then I just realized that it was so transparent to see and it was really hurting our ability to have any type of cohesiveness on stage. It's wild. Once I gave that up and I told her, hey, I'm giving this up. You've probably seen it and felt it. I'm releasing this. I want to just see us do well together. How good we became together. Once I gave up my envy and my ego how much better we became as a team i don't know that could be the lesson learned here but uh that took me a bit and now uh and now i feel like we've done really well that's awesome um well before we let me go we are going to play a little

game called do you know me uh it's real simple ben Ben. I'm going to ask you some questions. Rochelle, select these questions. Probably, it seems like based off the idea that maybe Ben is or is not perfect. I don't know if that was a theme in Rochelle's selecting of these questions, but it's real simple, Ben. I'm going to ask these questions.

Don't answer it right away. Rochelle and I, you're going to guess the answer to these questions, and then you'll reveal who knows you the best. Are you ready? Yeah. Do You Know Me with Benjamin Higgins. Question number one.

Has Ben ever peed in a bottle? Has Ben Higgins ever peed in a bottle? I don't know why I can just pick. I can say yes. I know ben has a very small bladder i was gonna say something else i was like dang it nick not now yeah his cock won't fit in a bottle um no like on caitlin season he had to pee all the time constantly oh really um yes high maintenance ben uh i can tell you why there's a reason i'm gonna but i'm gonna say

yeah no so uh i have like a little bit of social anxiety and so when i get I taught myself as a kid that, uh, to like, when I start feeling anxious or unhealthy, uh, the quickest escape was to go to the bathroom to like splash water in my face and like take a deep breath. So I, and I, and I just had to use the restroom. Like, honestly, I, I, I try to drink a lot of water. Um, but it is my escape, like a five minute bathroom break and quiet and like peacefulness is like what I can do to get back and be a better version of myself. So, yes. And have I peed in a bottle? Of course so.

A lot of long road trips. Yeah. Many times. He's not too good for that. I always go to the bathroom at parties. I'm like, I feel awkward. I'll just go to the bathroom. And then I'm like, okay.

Yeah, definitely. I definitely use the bathroom to just get away from people. Yeah. Question number two. Has Ben ever failed a class? I'm going to say no. He's never gotten an F on a class. I think he has.

Something happened and he couldn't do it. Like something happened in his life and he failed. They had to retake it. He might have dropped a class in college, but he's never failed. Dropped accounts is failing. Okay. Not if you drop,

not if you drop like in the first month or something, you'd be like, I don't like this class and I'm going to change it. I'm counting it. I have never failed, but I have dropped. Okay.

So I don't know how you're taking that, but I've dropped classes. One class was called Earthquakes and Volcanoes. I thought it was going to be a fun elective. It was so hard. I'll never forget it. I thought geology was going to be rocks for jocks. It was like the hardest class I've ever taken. And I had to drop it.

I couldn't do it. But yeah. The five-year-old was like the hardest class I've ever taken. And I had to drop it. I couldn't do it. But yeah. Okay. The five-year-old was like, yeah, this class is awesome. Blow shit up. Volcanoes. No. Not at all.

All right. Question number three. Has Ben Higgins ever gone to class intoxicated, whether being high, under the influence of any kind? I'm going to say yes i will say in college if you had even if you not not if you like i had a beer before but you felt you showed up for class and you're just like wow i don't think nick i mean i don't think ben smokes so i'm saying no i don't like it well yeah, yeah, but I'm expanding to influence of any kind.

Yeah. So 100% I have, and I have a good story for this. Indiana University has a week called Little 500. It's a big party week there. And one of the cool things to do was to day drink. And I thought it was more responsible for me to day drink and go to class than to day drink and not go to class. And so I'll never forget this. I had a class that I honestly, and this is not an exaggeration,

I still have, I don't know if you guys have this, but I still have reoccurring dreams every once in a while of this moment in my life where you've missed a test or you've missed a class and you wake up in the middle of the night panicked. Well, mine was I went to class, must have been a lot more intoxicated than I expected. I woke up from the professor waking me up at the end of class with my head on my desk. So I had been not something I'm proud of, but I had woken up at the end of it and he says, you should not come to class in this state. Now, was I the only one doing this? No, this is a campus-wide event, but I still have a reoccurring dream of the guilt and shame that I felt from waking up being like, yeah, man,

I'm sorry, not smart. I have a reoccurring dream similar. There's different variations, but it all is around the idea that i find myself in a situation i'm not prepared for like i've had it where it's just i'm back in high school or i'm back in college and i've uh i have this class that's like it's like the last week of class and i haven't showed up for any class and i've like become fully aware that like i'm gonna like fail this class and i've never showed up for or like when i used to play sports or track like i have the like the biggest meat and i haven't worked out like i'm in the shape i am now but i feel at at the starting line of a uh of a race

or something and it's like this recurring dream i'll have from time to time and it gives me great anxiety. Yeah, that happens to me all the time. Question number four. Does Ben sleep with a stuffed animal? No. I think maybe... Wait, do you sleep in the same bed as Jess or are you guys separate

beds until you're married? Separate. Whoa! Even when she visits you uh sometimes we do like i mean the tour bus is hard too so like yeah i mean but when she comes to colorado right now oh no yeah right now we are but like if she comes yeah you're out of paris yeah so like there's like it's like a respect level and also just like how like what the logistics of it is Just like how, like what the logistics of it is. Sure.

I think she has a stuffed animal. I'm just going to say that. She might, but I don't think Ben does. Yeah, but if he's sleeping in the same bed as her, then there's a stuffed animal. What's the answer? No, not even close. Never happened.

My closest thing is a body pillow. Yeah, I put a pillow between my legs. Last question, Ben. And I don't know. Has Ben had sex in the past week? In his full house of his soon-to-be parents-in-laws and brothers-in-laws, have you and Jess been fornicating? But I don't think they are at all, right? Yeah, you're right.

You're right, Michelle. Sneak one in. No, but are you guys waiting until you get married? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. So definitely not this week and not in the last year and a half. Yeah. Woo!

Did I win? I don't know probably not i don't know you want you won that one but not not the game all right we'll let you all right ben i uh i really appreciate you taking the time this has been a lot of fun yeah i always enjoy conversations with you and uh it's uh really appreciate you being open and um you know the takeaway obviously is uh you know envy and jealousy and it's a it's a funny thing that we feel everyone experiences it and it's uh always a good reminder not to judge yourself for having it but also just be cognizant that when you have those feelings in that moment that there's a good chance you're not alone so you should probably just stop if you can. You're right, man.

Well, hey, I love you. Rochelle, nice to meet you. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for chatting today. And let's do it again. This is fun. All right. Congrats.

Tell Jess I said hi, and I'll talk to you soon, buddy. All right. See you guys. And thanks for listening, guys. And don't forget to send in your questions at AskNickAtCastMe.com for our ask nick episodes on monday and if you haven't heard them yet be sure to check them out we always appreciate you guys listening and we will see you guys next time