The Viall Files - E122 Slut Bot with Shan Boodram

Episode Date: April 29, 2020

Too Hot to Handle’s Certified Intimacy Educator, Shan Boodram, joins Nick to talk about sex and dating. They rank quarantine situations, Shan shares her dating philosophy of “don’t just be yourself,” and they talk about how to do well on a date when you really like the other person.   “When life gives you lemons, have Facetime sex.” Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: WARBY PARKER: warbyparker.com/viall NOOM: noom.com/VIALL MAGIC SPOON: magicspoon.com/VIALL See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome to another episode of the vile files i'm your host nick joined by rochelle how you doing rochelle not that great i'll be honest why what's going on i don't know i'm just like just like, this is getting hard. It's getting kind of hard. I know. Yeah, I would agree. I thought I was thriving for a while. You really were.

You were. I'm like, I'm alone. I'm fine, to be honest. It's not much different than the norm. I'm not having a commute. But yeah, there have been periods where it's just like, yeah, feeling kind of lonely. commute but yeah there have been periods uh where it's just like yeah feeling kind of lonely uh this is i'm like i'm a creature of habit and now it's it's like magnified because you just get in this like very kind of isolated routine and it's just like i've had tacos four times this week and the

when i wasn't eating tacos i ate pizza like it's just, and it, you know, like it's, you're running out of things to watch, but yeah, it's, uh, it can get draining. Um, and I think, I think that's okay. And I think sometimes, um, it's good to put out there. Um, like everything else, there's good balance, you know, it's good to acknowledge the good time, but not to be afraid to just be like, it got to me today. it's hard like in cal in la it's just there's so many people around i don't feel like i can like go outside and i'm like oh you're not going you gotta get out i'm going on walks but i can't really go anywhere else because there's just people everywhere and yeah no i'm the same and i live in venice and like there's

definitely people on the boardwalk but not enough where you can't like be six feet apart and i take like i work out outside and then i take at least two walks for like 30 45 minutes just to i'm actually my tan's incredible i'm just like really my tan is fantastic but like yeah that only does so much and you know i'm still facetiming friends and talking to people but it's it's it's gotten really fucking redundant yeah and that i think that's part of the thing that's getting to people it's just the adjustment is there's just not enough variety right in our in our lives but other than that i'm still thankful we have the the and things, I guess, at least, you know, for a lot of people could be worse. And so I do want to give thanks to the things we do have. And obviously, for the people out there on the front lines, as always, we appreciate them doing what they're doing. or you're the mailman or you are stocking the shelves at the grocery stores or delivering Grubhub orders or Amazon orders. Those are all very important tasks out there and we appreciate

you. So thanks for doing that. We have an incredible guest today. I think something that is very relatable. Shan Boodram is our guest who is a bunch of things, but a sexology expert, a dating relationship expert, a dating coach. She's been on a ton of shows. She's on the new Netflix show, Too Hot to Handle. She has a new dating show on Quibi. And she's everywhere in the dating world. She has a YouTube channel. And a very sex positive person, sex coach, talking about alternative kind of ways of thinking. We talked about a ton of different things. We probably could have talked a lot more. Times are different in terms of like, we have a new norm when it comes to meeting people, talking to people, connecting with people.

But our desire to connect with people hasn't changed. And it's great to hear Shan's perspective on this and relationships. And it was just a lot of fun for me to talk with her about this stuff. And I think you guys will find it very interesting and relatable and exciting and hopefully fascinating, but really enjoyed the conversation with Shan. And I think you will too. So anything else to add, Rochelle? No. Well, let's get to Shan. But before we do, don't forget to send in your questions at asknick at castme.com, cast with a K for our Ask Nick episodes.

And as always, please send in your reviews, your iTunes reviews. We appreciate those. We certainly love those five stars, and it means a lot to us to get that feedback. So if we have nothing else shan budram shan thanks for uh joining us today appreciate you thank you for having me um thank you so much i'm so overjoyed to see a human face a lovely human face at that and i'm really excited to talk to you nick um yeah that being said, what's your quarantine situation? It's always fun to get updates from everyone. Are you totally alone? Are you with someone or a group of people? How's that going? So I have a quarantine, which is like, you know, it's a bay that you're

quarantining with. So me and my husband are just, it's just the two of us all the time together. It's been all right. I haven't been mad at it. Definitely miss the outside world, miss human contact for sure, and miss other people. But we take some breaks from each other. We're not on top of each other constantly.

So I think it's worked out okay. What's your situation? I'm utterly alone. It's actually fine. I've been trying to figure out like if you could rank quarantine situations, like what's the best one? Like I would almost argue that dating but just having met them and you don't live with them. Number one, right? You have like, you have, you have someone you're excited about. Uh, you, you know, you miss them, you want them, but you're FaceTiming and you're, you're talking to them and you know what? Maybe,

maybe you will happen to be quarantined with them. You don't live with them, but the situation like allowed you to like, you're like, fuck it. Let's just, let's just stay in the same room. But you have this whole excitement. And if that's the case, then you're like, you're like you're like fuck it let's just let's just stay in the same room but you have this all this excitement and if that's the case then you're like you're having a ton of sex you know you're in the honeymoon phase it's great i say number two potentially being single because it's just like i don't know you correct me you're married so you're living with your husband i feel like married or in a relationship no kids kids, number three. And then like on the bottom of that list, married with kids, like is the, what seems to be the toughest situation for people

because it's just like, this is probably really hard on kids. Kids don't understand what's going on. They're restless. Like you can only watch Frozen 2 so many times. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? And it sounds like it's been pretty good with you and your husband. Yeah, my ranking system is different. I think

what would have made my quarantine better is if my mom and dad were here, because you need somebody to bake. You need somebody who's making the shits all the time and who's in the kitchen, creating your favorites, who's bored, who wants to try new recipes. So I've watched my parents like just make these incredible dishes and my husband's not doing that. Neither am I. You don't cook? You know, here's the thing, Nick. When I first started dating my husband, I cooked a lot, but I was also making $15,000 that year.

I cooked a lot, but I was also making $15,000 that year. So as time changed and you get busier, you lose some elements, you lose some things, you gain some, you lose some. And so I think that this quarantine has forced me to start cooking a bit more, but like, no, it had completely dropped off my arsenal of like wifely skillsets. So no, I definitely, I miss my mom and dad

and I wish they were here baking fresh bread and brownies. So that'd be number one. Number two would probably be your situation. The one that you had described about just meeting somebody, it being exciting or meeting somebody through the quarantine, like feeling like you met your soulmate, but you can't see each other. And it's your own little blockbuster movie now happening. Like the world's keeping you apart, but your hearts want to be together and you're having cyber sex constantly and you can't wait for that sweet day that sounds kind of cool and then number number three would just honestly being single would be fine it'd be fine yeah i mean i'll tell you what you got your incense going in the background you look very

chill your plant looks happy i can tell that you're in good spirits well rochelle i couldn't hope but noticing how great your face looks thank you I'm wearing my Warby Parkers Warby Parkers I love Warby Parker you know before quarantine I they have a cute little store on Abbott Kinney in Los

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Try five pairs of glasses at home for free at warbyparker.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Noom. Well, my friends at Noom have never been more important than right now. We are stuck at home. We are getting into routines. We're getting into new routines as a result of the quarantine.

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Well, hopefully weight. Visit Noom dot com slash V-I-A-L-L. What do you have to lose? Well, hopefully wait. Visit Noom dot com slash V-I-A-L-L to start your trial today. That's N-O-O-M dot com slash V-I-A-L-L. I tell you what, my sexting game has been strong lately. I got to say, I definitely, I'm noticing people are getting antsy out there. So that's a win. You know what? There's actually a tool I want to suggest for sexting it's called slutbot and it's an ai robot that you can practice sexting with what yes and it responds back to you and if you don't know how to sext or what to say the only thing i'll say

about slutbot is slutbot is a bugaboo like you're not if i'm not texting slut bot for a while it will chime in and i'm like if i if i didn't have you saved what walk me through this so if i get on what is it slut box slut slut bot yeah but slut bot saved so if i go on slut bot and i'm like i'm feeling it you know i'm in a little romantic time for myself and i want some dirty talk and i have no one to dirty talk with i'm just like uh where do you want it baby and then slut bot will be like on my stomach what would it like how's that work it doesn't necessarily like respond you it's the other way around slut bot you respond to slut bot so here we go i'll give you some Slutbot examples. So I don't know if you can see.

Slutbot just texts. You don't see any blue in there, right? Yeah, yeah. It's been a while since I've engaged. There we go. But it keeps going. All right. So today I was thinking about that time we had sex in the shower.

I remember feeling your skin getting slippery beneath my hands. How did it feel when I pressed you against the tiles i said cold and hot and then slutbot said 100 100 i'm getting hard thinking about how you sucked on my fingers while i lift you did you like how i circled my tongue over your i don't know how x-ray the show is but this is an no we're fine you can say whatever you want service uh's AI? It's a robot? It knows how to do that? Yes. That's a little scary to think that all the catfishing that's possible to go out there.

Are you even talking to a human nowadays? Well, this time you know you're not. You're just practicing. So if anybody, one, is bored and doesn't have as many sexting partners as you, or number two, is not the pro that you are, that's just a resource to utilize. Well, I'm not suggesting I'm a pro. I'm just out there swinging. You said you were good. I just said it's been amplified.

Like women are more willing to do it now, right? That's what you're saying, Nick? I'm suggesting that I've noticed an uptick and uh fuck it um are you a are you a photo sexter um it just depends like um you know if i'm talking to a girl and usually like there's a level of trust right like i you know if there's you know i always kind of talk about my dating life i I'm, I always play up the utterly alone single. I mean, I've mentioned this. I'm not like, I have an active dating life, right? So I might be talking to someone for a period of time.

I don't, I don't bring it up. I don't talk about it. I don't make it public, but like, you know, I have relationships. And so if there's like a, you know, if I'm in a, like a communication with a woman, like sometimes, yeah, there's a, you know, FaceTim'm in a, like a communication with a woman, like sometimes, yeah, there's a, you know, FaceTiming is always fun. The old FaceTime sexting date can be fun. No, I don't, no permanent photos are ever sent, you know, like these are ones that go away and there's a level of trust of like screenshotting and things like that. I'm not too worried. I don't like, you know,

it is what it is. But yeah, I mean, why not mix it up? You're dick-sgoogle-able, more or less. I don't think so. Not that I'm aware of. Everything else is. Yeah, everything else is. But yeah, I don't know.

I mean, it's, you know, when life gives you lemons, you, you know, have FaceTime sex. There you go. But yeah, I mean, I, I'm glad you were, I thought it was appropriate to have you on just because of your expertise and the times that we're in. Everything's changing. But as we always say, like relationships never stop. The desire to connect with people, the desire to be intimate with people, that's still going on despite your

situation. And, you know, you obviously have been very active out there the past few years, talking about sex education, you know, sex positivity, women empowerment, you're doing a lot. You've been on a ton of different shows you have a new show on quibi coming out uh sexology with uh sham jam um and uh i actually found i actually first discovered discovered you uh was a couple years on the facebook show uh what was it called uh makeup or breakup yeah i watched like a handful of episodes of those that was uh that was kind of funny but yeah like i guess let me tell me like how'd you get your Makeup or Breakup. Yeah, I watched like a handful of episodes of those. That was kind of funny.

But yeah, I guess tell me, how did you get your start? Is this something you always wanted to do? I know you're a certified – is it a certified specific to sex or just relationship expert? I'm a sexologist, yes. Okay. What is that and how'd you get into that? And, you know, being, you know, a young, beautiful woman, like, how does that affect, you know, how people react to you? And when you're giving advice? And do you find that to be helpful? Yeah, I know, to your point, in a very weird way.

I think that we think people think of purpose as this thing that you have to discover, you got to find your purpose, and you have to go towards it. But a lot of times your purpose is innately in you. It's what you were naturally drawn to. And when I think about it, like even at five years old, I was really fascinated by the human body. By the time I was like six or seven, my Barbies were banned from being naked because they just never had clothes on.

I was very fascinated by touch, by intimacy in general, but I also grew up in a Catholic school system and my parents were not like super conservative, but enough to send me to a Catholic school. So a lot of those natural instincts that I had that the body was a healthy, good thing. And that human sexuality was a normal part of life. We're definitely not celebrated by those around me. So by the time I was like, you know, 14 years old and hormones started to kick in, all that natural interest you have plus hormones equals, I got to find something. So I ended up watching, I remember a ton of porn growing up, reading a ton of fiction novels, just trying to digest any information I could, because there was no resources for me.

Now, fast forward to when I was 16 or so and ready to be sexually active, all that training didn't set me up for success. And I had a really shitty teen sex life. And so at the age of 19, I came to this crossroad where I was like, all right, either my parents and the nuns and everybody was right. It's this really dangerous thing that's going to destroy your life and make you go to hell and make you go half blind. Or I just don't have enough information. So I decided to try my hand at that. I got a library card. I spent the entire summer just reading every scholastic book on sex. And the through line to me was like, there's really great information out there that people need to know about, but it's packaged in the most fucking boring way. Like sex sells,

but sex ed does not. So I just saw a niche for myself to make sex ed sexy, to make it approachable, to make it the kind of content that I would have been drawn to when I was really curious at that time and beyond. And that was 19 and now I'm 35. So it's been some time. Um, and I put out two books and I've always wanted to be a public educator. It's always the way that I've envisioned my work going. I wanted to make content that was as accessible as the books and the porn that I was reading. And so that's why I try to show up wherever I can. Hence being here. Yeah, I appreciate you coming. Your book, what five surprising secrets to Dating with Dominance.

Yes. Tell me about that. I'm assuming that's specific to women, right? Like, is that specific? Yes. Well, it's called The Game of Desire. Did you ever read the game? You know what?

I started reading the game because when I moved to Chicago, I was in my early 30s. And I was out at the bars. And the truth of the matter is I worked with this guy. And I'll never forget him. But we were at a Blackhawks. We were at a bar watching the Blackhawks in a Chicago bar. And so everyone's really excited. And I was having success because I was getting hit on by women. And this was the type of guy.'s a pretty good looking guy but I after I got to know him super insecure or whatever and it really

pissed him off that I was getting hit on by these like these women and like I was I was like my first time like I was I was on the job for like a week so I'm meeting all these new people he had been there for a while and he's just like comes to me he's like hey man have you ever read the game you know it changed my life and i'm just like okay and anyways like he kept talking about it so out of curiosity like i got it so i started reading it i didn't finish it because i was quite honestly a bit turned off by the premise of like gaming the system and after i got to know this guy it was like that, that's like, it just seems so disingenuous. And this idea of like manipulating women into getting to like you, it seems so insincere and douchey. But yes, I am. That's how I became, I remember, I'll never forget it. He was

just like, man, you got to read it. It changed my life. And it was such a condescending remark. Yeah, give you advice. And when you're the one who was out here what i realized but what i realized what he was trying to do he was trying to take notes from the book itself and he was trying to nag me and he was trying to like poke and like get under my skin and use some of those tactics of manipulation that he learned from the book on me um but anyways yeah so i i am familiar with it it I've read three quarters of it okay well that's that's sufficient so yes I wanted to make a women's response to the game and then also to your point do what the book I think failed to do and then but also take what

I loved about the game what I like about pickup artistry in general is really straightforward advice it's really straightforward well-researched clear advice the objective of the game, what I like about pickup artistry in general is really straightforward advice. It's really straightforward, well-researched, clear advice. The objective of the game is one that nobody wins. And that's ultimately, if you read Neil Strauss's follow-up book, The Truth, you learn that. If you don't love yourself, like yourself, put the work in, it doesn't matter how charming you are or how many skills you have. You're just drawing people in to somebody who ultimately thinks that they're a loser. And you can't sustain that long you have. You're just drawing people into somebody who ultimately thinks that they're a loser. Um, and you can't sustain that longterm and you don't know that there's no skills for sustaining it. So if you're a salesperson and you've got all these nice tricks,

but you're selling a lemon car, your business is not going to be longstanding. So essentially though, what I saw though, the flaws in books for women about love and dating and romance and seduction, they're very vague. They're very vague, or they were outdated where it was like the rules, like be the bitch, be this, be that. And like, nah, what about be charming, be funny, be cool, be outgoing. And dating with dominance. I know it sounds like I'm telling people to be like, can I buy you a drink? Like, I'm not suggesting that women start like strong arming men and stuff and, you know, challenging them to arm wrestling contests. Dating with dominance essentially means like be in the

driver's seat. This is a big part of your life. And why would you want to be a passenger at that? Your career is really important to you. So you apply for the jobs that you want. You put yourself in the position to be the kind of person who gets the opportunities that you want. But a lot of only one in 10 women make the first move. So dominance really means stop waiting for the person to discover you stop waiting for the right person to find you stop taking that advice of just be yourself. If you're not getting the results that you want, it's time to start getting really intentional about it. And the book is a five phase process to help people do that. Interesting. I mean, I actually quite like the title. And like you said, specific to women, because this podcast is heavy relationship-based. Our audience is

primarily women, right? And what we've talked about a lot on this show, especially with our Ask Nick episodes, is the amount of women out there who take a passive approach to their dating life. They're constantly, they spend most of their energy worried about, if he likes me, what should I do to make him happy, etc., etc. Well, why doesn't he call me? And it's just like, well, what do you want like what are what are your standards you know what like you spend so much time on on fixating on what what he wants you haven't spent any energy on what you want and so i yeah right i like i like that it's out your books it's definitely makes sense that it's a bestseller and there's definitely a market out there for

for women to like feel feel more empowered about having their own expectations. I like that. One question you mentioned when you're talking about that is, I would love you to clarify when you said people telling you just be yourself and how that might be bad advice. What do you mean by that? If you're not achieving results at anything, right? Whether that be, I come to you because if I'm buying a book about dating that insinuates that my dating life

isn't going that well, and that's okay. This is a, again, it's a big part of people's lives. Even for me, I'm constantly buying relationship books because there's new things that I want to learn. So I'm admitting that there's something that I'm lacking and thus I'm picking this up to pick up new traits. But a lot of people don't buy relationship books, don't buy dating books, don't invest in this stuff, don't invest in therapy because we live in this world that tells you that the right person will just find you. It's just supposed to happen. One day you'll just wake up and you'll know like all these really passive, you know, homages to what love is supposed to be like kind of that Cupid sentiment. But if you're not getting the results that you want in cooking,

and you came to me, you're like, I keep burning the rice, like, what should I do? I wouldn't say like, just keep doing what you're doing. It'll work out eventually. I'd be like, you're doing some shit wrong. Like there's something wrong in your process. If you're consistently getting burnt rice, we have to troubleshoot and that troubleshooting starts with you. And there's something wrong in your process. If you're consistently getting burnt rice, we have to troubleshoot. And that troubleshooting starts with you. And that's the good news. Because I think a lot of people, when I first started researching from the book, I put out a tweet and I just said, dating is fill in the blank. And the amount of negative responses I got back, right? Because it's so easy to be like, dating is trash. Dating is a waste of time. Dating is manipulative. Dating is a bunch of people just trying to have sex. Dating is nothing but a game that you're

going to lose at. And then you're like, well, how are you as a dater? Like, that's the question you're actually never answering in all of this. And that is the question that the book really challenged. And so one of the chapters of the book is called Don't Just Be Yourself. And I think that that's really positive advice. I think that being told to just be yourself, like why? If I'm alive, I want to strive. I want to improve. I want to do better. I never want to just be.

I want to become. So that's what that's really rooted in. And I just, I hate that advice so much when people say that. Yeah, I like that you articulated that because I think sometimes people can be confused by that because I totally agree in terms of self-improvement. I'm still doing things in my life to just get better, ask questions, admit fault in the sense of like, I'm not good at that. I want to get better, right? And you're right. Too many people get too comfortable with who they are. And just not only do they ask other people, including their partners, to accept it, but they ask themselves to accept it. It's just like, well, this is this is this is who I am. I'm just I'm just going to be this person.

And, you know, but that being said, you know, when you if you are self-improving, would you agree that like, you know, do the work to make yourself the best version that you want to be? But if you, once you're in that relationship or you're on that date, do you, would you agree that it's still important to like, not compromise the things that you want out of that relationship or that conversation, as opposed to like on on that date, acting differently than you normally would, that's kind of feels out of body just to please the person across the table from you. Yeah. And the operative word there is acting. Most of y'all ain't good actors. There's a reason why one person a year wins actor of the year, you know, for a movie.

There's not a lot of you out there who are incredible actors. It was in the book, The Game of Desire, I worked with six women. And so it's like half story, half self-help. And a lot of them would say things like, you know, I'm really quiet just because on the inside, I'm secretly really nervous and afraid people are going to judge me. But I never, no, no, people don't usually know that. I was like, it's written all over your face. You're not a good actor. So please don't ever try to pretend. Please don't ever try to force yourself to be something that you're not. You know, you can't go into a basketball game and pretend to be a dunker. You can or you can't. And if you're not putting in the work beforehand, when you get to the game, you got to just be who you are in that moment. So I do agree with that. Like your authentic expression has to come through. And if it doesn't, it's just not going to play off very well. And if you are an incredible actor, that's probably a pretty scary person to date if they're, that's almost the game type person, right? They've learned all the lines, they've learned the things to say, but it's not actually an authentic expression of who they are. point, you want to put the work in and be constantly working on yourself and always analyzing, always striving to be better so that when you do engage with somebody, being yourself is effortless. It's a natural extension of exactly who you want to be. And it brings the best out of

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our podcast. If someone is on a date and this nervous person, let's just say first date, do you have tips for that person who just gets in their head on the date? They're really excited about this person. People always say, it's just like, I'm totally fine with guys or girls until I really like them and I'm a total mess. I can't be myself. You know, uh, what are some tips do you have for people who are just like trying to get out of their own way, uh, trying to get out of their head and just try to come across as their most true self? Because sometimes people just go, it's so damn nervous. They're just fucking weird. Um, and then like the date ends, you're just like, that's not who I am. Like, what tips do you have for those people, if any? You know, I think too, is we tend to really isolate dating and love in its own separate compartment, right?

We think that the skills necessary to master that are so different. Why is it any different from anything else, right? If you're not usually making turkey, it's going to be a challenge to do that for Thanksgiving dinner. So you're going to be nervous about the results of what you're putting in if it's a high stakes environment and you don't usually make turkey. So I think that if you find yourself being really nervous on dates and unable to be your authentic self, just start flirting more with the average person.

Number two, go out on more dates so you familiarize yourself and get comfortable with it. And if you're in the moment and you're looking for some quick fix tips, that's where dating with dominance comes into play in a way. Talk about shit that you know that you're good at talking about. Bring up topics or if anything, I don't know if you read Art of Seduction, but the go-to is to be the idea lover. If you don't really feel like you're really hitting it, focus on the other person. you know, get to know them, ask questions and be present with that individual. Like that in itself, I always say, is like the secret ingredient to dating,

especially in like our Mimi culture. If you could actually ask somebody a question and ask a follow-up question that proves you were listening, that's gonna set you apart. So I think ultimately date more, flirt more, let that be a part of your routine. And so when the stakes are high, you already have the muscle memory to do that. But if you're in the moment, one, try to talk about things you know, or two, talk with the other person. I promise you it's your favorite topic.

Yeah, totally. That is great advice. I've also also like if i find myself on a date with someone and i sense they're they're nervous um like i'll ask them a question and i can tell like they're kind of holding back you know especially if it's you know when you get past the layers of like oh what do you do for work you know like what do you think of the weather today and all of a sudden you start asking them about themselves and they seem reluctant i'll, I'll offer it up like on my end, you know, and I'll like try to tell a vulnerable story, you know, like, you know, they'll give me an answer, right? And so, but I can tell it's like maybe surface level, right? They're a little shy, they're a little afraid of opening up and I'll be like, well, yeah, for me, you know, and I'll just

like really go there and I'll just tell them a real, potentially, nothing crazy, but just a vulnerable story. And that always seems to really loosen up the conversation of just being like, well, hey, this is who I am. I suck. And it makes people a little... It puts their guard down. And they seem to be more...

Because like you said, I think people like talking about themselves. And for the people who can be shy, they're nervous because they're just afraid if they show who they really are, the other person across the table is going to judge them and not like them. So I always kind of give the opportunity for someone I'm on a date to judge me,

knowing that I know they probably won't. And know, and they'll probably even find a charm. Do you have an example story? You know, maybe it might be like insecurities about like even just my dating life, or obviously a lot of times people know me from The Bachelor, right? And so I'll, to a certain degree degree depending on who i'm on a date with i'll be pretty like i'll pick and choose things i talk about and um i just do it in a way that shows like yeah i'm really insecure about this you know uh it just kind of you know it bothers me that people think this you know and and as opposed to this nick what what's the this, Nick? What? What's the this? Well, I mean, I've talked about this before,

but it can just be like I get annoyed about this idea of like unlucky in love or whatever like that. You know, like when people ask, oh, why are you single? As if like I'm single quite honestly because I choose to be single. And that's really what it comes down to. It doesn't mean everyone I've liked has liked me back and I just didn't want to. But like, the point is,

if I truly just wanted to have a girlfriend, I could have a girlfriend right now. I just, I've decided to have a certain level of expectation that whether that's whether I'm right in terms of what I'm looking for, that remains to be seen. But, uh, ultimately I've, I've been kind of holding out for, for that type of relationship. And then with that comes like this idea that I'm, you know, my relationship is always in the spotlight, so to speak, you know, like, the only time people really care about me is if they, they know I might be dating someone. Um, so it's like, Hey,

what projects are you working? Uh, that's how I feel sometimes dating someone. So it's like, yeah, what projects are you working? That's how I feel sometimes for sure. Yeah. But people care about your perspective and your opinion. And sure. Yeah. I mean, I think with this show, I've built an audience,

but again, if there's an insecurity, it's just like people really only care about my relationship life. They don't really care about anything else I'm doing. And again, that may be that there might be some truth to that, but most of it is probably maybe an insecurity that I have. But like, you know, I might not offer like, I guess what I'm saying is I'll offer that up or something similar or just something relatable, or maybe I'll talk about a bad habit I have, you know, or something, um, just something to, to let the other person know across

the table that it's okay to just like, you know, totally be yourself in a sense that like whoever you are, like to your point, hopefully everyone's working on themselves and trying to be the best version. But once you go on a date, that's just who you are in that moment. So you might as well just, you might as well just tell me what's up, you know, and let's just see if, if there's a common ground. So I try to do that. And sometimes, sometimes it works. And that's great. I think that, have you ever heard of 36 questions to fall in love? I have, I haven't done that. Have you done that? I have done it.

But it sounded like what you, I did it as an experiment. And so the other person wasn't aware that I was doing it. And I was just rapid firing asking the question because I had memorized them. And at the end of the date, I kid you not, I don't think this person knew what my first name was. There was, it was literally just talking to them because they'd ask, I'd't think this person knew what my first name was. There was, it was literally just talking to them because they'd ask, I'd ask a question like, oh, what's the famous person you would love to go to dinner with dead or alive? And they would answer you, you ask a follow-up, then you would spin it to a different question. They just talked for an hour. And at the end, they were like, I've never felt so close to anyone in my life. And that just really signified to me, like all people

need to do is talk about themselves. Like that is like the secret ingredient. If they felt like they got to unload and be authentic about who they are and share interesting parts of themselves, like that's enough to create a connection, not long-term, but in the moment, I think that's like the recipe for a great first date. Yeah. What you just did reminded me of 36 questions, because you're supposed to ask questions that get more and more vulnerable until in the end you feel like you know things that the person's best friend doesn't know about them mind you like you just said your podcast and your whole audience knows that about you but i feel like we just had a moment so i'm in love there we go all right exciting tell your husband um you know what's so funny is i used to buy like dating this is

so embarrassing i've never told anyone but I used to buy dating books. And they're all written by men, you know, mostly. Why is it embarrassing though? It's like, it seems like something you should know how to do. Why? You know what I mean? Yeah, I agree with Shant. That perception out there.

Yeah. Is what's hurting people but go ahead rachel totally but like so i would date guys and i could never get them to like be that we would always break up before we would become boyfriend and girlfriend so i was trying to figure it out and like from a lot of them were written from a man's perspective and it was basically like just put up with everything and be as cool as you can and hide your crazy until they commit and it never worked like none of the advice didn't you see gone girl that's exactly what happened in that movie and she had to murder him in the end so that's it's not long-term withstanding advice yeah um it's great to read this book those kind

of books. Honestly, I think, again, that's sort of the educational flaw that we're under. We're two thirds of, one of my favorite sociologists is David Brooks, who writes for New York Times,

but he has this book called Social Animal. And he says the two thirds of people's happiness is accounted by the quality and quantity of their relationships. And anything you read about happiness talks about people's quality and quantity of their relationships. And anything you read about happiness talks about people's quality and quantity of their relationships. And yet this

is the one area we're encouraged to do nothing about. We're encouraged not to take an active interest in and we're supposed to just figure it out. Um, so I think it's just a really crazy thing. If you want to be great at literally anything, there's a really clear, again, what I was saying, like we tend to isolate dating and love in its own category. But if you want to get great at cooking, there's a systematic approach to it. If you want to get great at mathematics, you want to get great at interior design, it's all a systematic approach to learning and mastery. The same applies for love and dating. So buy your damn books, Rochelle. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean mean it's one of those things too where

buy the books learn about it uh but you do have to be good at uh figuring out what's right for you it's it's no different than um all you know like listen there's a bazillion i don't even know if bazillions are real number but there's a lot of fucking workout videos out there right like and the end of the day most of them will get you in shape if you do some of it right uh's a lot of fucking workout videos out there, right? Like, at the end of the day, most of them will get you in shape if you do some of it, right? And a lot of them, there's a million different overlaps and everyone has their own, like, special trick. But, like, just fucking move. Move around, right?

Do some exercises, right? And I think when it comes to dating and relationships, it is similar, right? You're going to get a bunch of different opinions. There's a lot of common themes though. And so find something that grabs your attention, that you relate to, and just maybe just get a good takeaway. It's like maybe you buy this whole workout video and all you really take away from it is that you were doing pushups wrong. Well, great. Now you're going to start doing pushups right for the rest of your life and like get a better workout. And I think doing it that way is a great way to become, to be, to get improvement because otherwise, yeah, you might get bogged down and, you know,

think, oh, I was doing it totally wrong before. Now I found this book and no, then I was doing that wrong and something new. But there's, you know, working out and relationships. Those are two things that have been around forever, you know, and we're always improving and we're always getting notes. And the idea is like kind of you said, Shan, is just, you know, it's exercising that muscle, right? It's just staying sharp and nothing else like having the confidence to like have these conversations and the confidence to mess up on a date, right? There's no like, ask a question and maybe that person's like, nah, you know, like, okay, moving on. No big deal. You know, it's fine.

So I agree with you. I think it's fine uh so i i agree with you i think it's great to just stay sharp and educate yourself and and be date positive and sex positive uh and i like that you mentioned about like just having more positivity around dating right because you're absolutely right people like dating is you're like you're always always negative. It's hard. It sucks. I hate it. Blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, I don't know. It can be kind of fun, you know? It's so fun. And just like, if you really boil down to its bare bones is two or more people who are raising their hand to say, I'm looking to make a connection with a person that I don't know in hopes that I'll get to know them in a way that I've never gotten to know anybody else. And that's, if you're sitting across from somebody at a bar, they're putting aside time to be like, you're a stranger. And I'm wondering if you're who's

missing in my life. It's really fucking beautiful. Uh, it really at the heart of it is, it's a really cool thing to do. And when I turned 30, um, I moved to LA at like 28, 29. And I was in a long distance relationship, which was not that great. But 30 is when I was like, I want this area of my life to change. So I started to get really intentional. I read a bunch of books just about everything from influence to self defense, to seduction, to conversation starters. The thing about dating and learning to get better at dating though too is that it just benefits every area of your life because you're just learning about people

and you're learning how to be a version of yourself that's interested in others, but also interesting. Like you've got things to talk about and you know what you love talking about and you can offer perspective. So at 30, I started to get really intentional about dating and I had an amazing time. I was on a lot of dating apps. And even though I never ended up long-term dating anybody there, these are all

people I probably still talk to to this day. They were all great, really cool individuals. I spent, I took a lot of time in vetting to make sure if I went on a date with somebody, it's somebody that I would have enjoyed spending 40 minutes with. And even if they weren't like the one, it was still somebody who I was like, I'm really glad to have met them. So I think if you kind of just switch the energy to this is draining and exhausting to, I get to learn about a whole new brand human being who's had 20 plus years in this like planet and all this experience to bring and this unique perspective. And I get to pick their brain for 30 minutes or 30 years, whatever it ends up being, like that's what the heart of dating is. And if you hold on to that, I think you won't feel as exhausted and overwhelmed by it.

I love that. I think that's really great advice. And so much of what we do or how we feel about things is our perspective on it. And I think, like you said, that certainly goes for dating as well. Give us a little insight on your new show on Quibi, Sexology with Shambu Dram and what it's all about. I read something. I haven't seen it yet. I just haven't been on Quibi that much. But Quibi is new. It's out there. There's a ton of great content, including your show. Quibi is new. It's out there. There's a ton of great content, including your show. And I saw something about advice for dating apps and things like that. And I wondered if you have... Give us a little insight on your show, but also I'd love to hear about, especially the times that we're in with people being quarantined. I know that people are on dating apps now more than ever.

People are bored and just wanting to connect with people. What are some tips in terms of like dating profiles? What should people put on there? And et cetera. Yes, I'm hyped for this one. And I really studied this because I wanted to make sure that if I was going to talk about this, it wouldn't be the same old generic shit. But sexology, just to give the quick bite of what it is, quick bite is what Quibi stands for, in case you didn't know. But essentially, it hundred plus episodes of sex love dating relationship and intimacy and so every episode we cover a different topic so you have a hundred already yeah we've we've we you know the whole coronavirus thing kind of you know put a wrench in our production plans but we already finished 70 by the time that that's amazing stopped down yeah so we did

squirting anal sex prostate orgasms dating app techniques sexting cyber sex sex dolls asexuality every episode covers a different like insular topic around sex and dating and love and then we have real guests and real people who are experiencing that or have a unique perspective to share on it. And so within those six minutes, you get to learn about the topic, hear from somebody who's experienced, get my takeaway on it. It's always fun and lighthearted. The whole point of it, again, is to go back to my original purpose coming into this. How do I make sex ed sexy? So if squirting would have been a chapter in a book that you wouldn't have gotten through, even though the topic is enticing, how do I make that into a six minutes that you're

going to enjoy without you actually getting the splash on the screen at the end? So it's, you know, as far as we can go without actually hitting you with any bodily fluids, but some dating app, um, tips when people say yes, the most on the weekends. So if you want to like spend time, you should spend Saturday and Sunday. People are more likely to swipe right on the weekends. People are most on dating apps at 8 PM on Sunday. Um, you should, for your brain sake, get two matches and then stop with the app. Like if you want to continue to have like from a psychological perspective, a positive experience, you're swiping and you stop with the app. Like if you want to continue to have, like from a psychological perspective, a positive experience,

you're swiping and you match with two people, stop, switch to messaging and then stop for the day. And then regulate your times that you're on there. So just two. I think that's excellent advice. Yeah. Yeah. Abundant.

Yeah. We have paralysis of choice when it comes to dating apps. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the newer dating apps now, like even the League, the League only gives you five choices because psychologically, the human brain can only really handle between five to seven choices. So if you're giving somebody 50, you're losing some quality matches along the way. And you're not even valuing the ones that you're getting because you're just like constantly

looking for the next. So it's just like putting yourself in a position where you know you can win. constantly looking for the next. So it's just like putting yourself in a position where you know you can win. Pictures, I would say like, this is an obvious one to me, but first picture, go to a magazine stand. What's the commonality of every single magazine, despite if it's for men's health or if it's for video games or for pornography or it's for women's beauty, they're all three quarter inch eye contact, straightforward, well lit. So why you have a picture of you in a field where you're two thirds of the picture is beyond my ass, right? So I think like, borrow from the principles that already work. Think about it in terms of marketing, you know, the pictures that you put out there are the images, what kind

of quality person is going to bring in the best first line for a dating app. I always say is make it easy for the other person. If you're about me has nothing else. Think what is it that I uniquely know about that makes me somebody worth talking to in LA from a general person to person standpoint. So my first line would probably be like, ask me where to take the most incredible photos on Mount on mountain hikes. Cause I hike all the time. Ask me where to get the best tequila in East LA. Whatever your thing is, build it in for the other person. And that's kind of a part of dating with dominance. Ask me where to get the best vegan donuts. So I'm revealing a little bit about me. I'm making it clear for you how to engage with me. And then also too, I'm making it pretty obvious if somebody writes me and they just say, hey, or something else, I'm aware it's a copy and

paste message. So I think it's just an easy weed out method. It makes it easier for people to engage with you. You're steering the boat where you want it to go and hopefully getting better quality matches as a result. What I do like about that is putting out questions they can ask you. like about that is putting out questions they can ask you again just changing the narrative so many people will in their bios put things that they don't want to be asked or they what they're not looking for uh if you just want to fuck me keep keep moving on like if you're this and that and like i get that you don't want someone like that but that only just sets the tone that you have your wall up or your guard up or that you're just kind of a pain in the yeah you know um it's just not inviting and so even if you

are a guy who's like actually i just want to meet a nice person you're just like oh god you seem like a lot you know so and the guy who just wants to fuck you isn't reading he's not reading you're about me and going to paragraph six like he's seeing that one hot photo and saying i'm a sender of dick pics so yeah to your point you're actually discouraging the quality of candidates that you are looking for who would read your bio so it also make the argument the guy who's just trying to fuck you is going to swipe right and be like i can still do this. You know, a challenge accepted. Yeah. It's your friend who read the game.

Yeah, totally. Right. I mean, and also like, I couldn't agree with you more on the picture bio, like you're, especially your first picture, not the time to try to be ironic or different, or like, I don't want to be like everyone else. Like, no, this is your thirst trap opportunity. like i don't want to be like everyone else like no this is your thirst trap opportunity like you don't have to take your shirt off or or or look promiscuous but like they should know who you are like there's nothing worse than being like this is me and my girlfriend i'm like well who the which what who the fuck is i don't know which one you are like and boy i mean dude then there's nothing worse on a dating app than seeing two girls and thinking one's cuter than the other, only to find out this one's the less attractive friend.

Like, I don't like, what were you thinking? Like, I don't understand. Like, it's bizarre. I've actually had some- Well, they're almost thinking that people are spending time, right? Like, if they're putting an ironic photo or a vague photo, it's like they're thinking that everybody's spending the time looking at the day spent.

People are spending decimal two seconds. And so if you don't catch me before I even realize that you were in that picture, I've already swiped left. Totally. Yeah, that's great advice. What are some things on your new show, like you talked about the squirting, the anal, what are some topics around dating that you find are misunderstood topics or the biggest surprise that you've learned from perception about this topic versus reality? I think a big one is

the looks factor. We've had two, you know, that people who are good looking have an easier time. We had this stunning blonde come in whom was like, I never get to the second date. And I'm pretty convinced that guys only want sex. And you're looking at her and you're like, oh, like you, why would you have a problem? And then you start the conversation and you're like, Oh, I'm a hundred percent clear what's happening here. So I think that there's this conception that beautiful people have an easier time in dating or that it's better for them. Anybody who's not putting the work in, who is not explored. And, you know, by and large, one of my favorite philosophers, Elaine de Botton says this, that people don't really know what their isms are.

Like a person who meets you for the first five minutes might have more insight into some of your character flaws than you might have. Like your family and friends aren't going to tell you, you've probably become blind to them or you see yourself in duality. So you see yourself as vulgar and bold, but you also kind of see that as ironic and funny. You're not looking at it from the perspective of somebody who doesn't know your backstory. Anything about you is just experiencing you as is for the first time. So I think that there's, yeah, this idea that bad daters or people who are unlucky in love have a certain archetypal look to them. That's just a massive myth that gets disproven time and time again. The notion that dating is shittier now. A book that I really like, it's called The Psychology of Love, and Helen Fisher is in it, and she does this thing every year called Singles in America.

And what she was finding is that even though people are waiting longer and it feels like people are hooking up more and having more casual sex, those are actually all positive indicators that we're going to have more long-lasting relationships and we do settle down. And it's a concept called slow love. So people are in a rush to get to the end result or in a rush to find their person where all these experiences you're having along the way are actually meaningful. It's not all like a leapfrog to get to that person. These are all building block experiences that if you play them right and you actually gain something from them, they are setting you up for success in the long run later on down the line. So even the notion that dating is trash

right now, I think is like a lack of perspective. Interesting. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you saying that. I feel like you just validated me and my dating life and the slow burn that I'm going through. And all jokes aside, people always ask me, am, uh, the slow burn that I'm going through. And, you know, you know, all jokes aside, you know, like people always ask me like, am I asked Nick or questions with Nick? And when I'm getting dating advice, it's like, how can you be getting into this dating advice? Or I really like your advice, but like you're single. It's just like, well, it's because I've been like active. Like I've had these experiences, like I fucked up plenty of times. I had to learn from it. Like a lot of the shit I'm telling you not to do. I've fucking done. Um, you know,. You know, it's stuff like that. Or just having, you know, a lot of the advice I

give sometimes is just the perception of how you're looking at a situation. And a lot of that has to do with, in my 20s, I saw things very differently. I was, I got caught up in my own bullshit. I reacted to my own ego. And I was, that was a driving force in my, how I was perceiving a situation. And I couldn't get out of my own way. And I couldn't get out of my head. And those are all things like once I finally got over that situation, or I grew up, I was able to look at that situation for what it was and not what I thought it was in the moment. And a lot to a lot is gained from that situation. And the idea, I think, for people out there is like, like you said, like, the one like, dating can be great for all the failed stuff. Being cheated on sucks in the moment. It's a great learning experience. Failed relationships suck. But like

you learn so much if you are open to it, right? Like if you just want to be like, oh, well, they fucking sucked. And like, oh my God, everyone else sucks. And I'm just, you know, I'm a prince or princess is waiting to be won by the right person. You might not get something from it. But if you look back and be like, oh, well, you know, I probably could have done that differently that you can hopefully learn a lot from it. Yeah. And you know, there's, there's two kinds of learning experiences, right? There's learning experiences that you, you probably didn't have to go through to realize that that's not the wave. You know, like when you see somebody who gets their feet melted off because they step in fire, you're like, I don't actually have to do

that. I got the lesson. Don't step on, don't step on those coals. Um, so I think that a lot of people try to like rationalize, like not all dating learning experiences are valuable. If you feel like you're coming out of relationships or connections, and instead of feeling inspired to move forward or stronger to move forward, you feel like you have to go back and try to reclaim yourself and find parts of you that got lost in that connection. Like those aren't the kinds of learning relationships that we're looking at. And that's probably for you to stop and think, I got to really press pause because even if I'm not meeting my person, I have to at least discover myself along the way and invite people in that facilitate that process.

And I had that experience, I think with an ex of mine where I left and I'm like, I'm not a better person for this. I didn't gain anything. And I actually lost a lot and going forward, no matter what with somebody, I have to make sure that I like who I am in the relationship. I have to make sure that I like who I'm becoming. Cause if not, when I leave, I've got nothing, I don't have a partner and I don't even have myself anymore. So I would just be really mindful. Like the thing is, if you're, it's like a job, you're like, if you're, you're ultimately moving towards your dream job, but if every job you have gives you new skills, new contacts, makes you feel more sure about your purpose, gives you clarity in what your skillset is, even when that job is over, it's still a great experience. It's still an awesome,

big part of your life. And it probably will become a part of your story, even though it's not the ending chapter of your story. So I would just think about that. All right, maybe I'm a serial dater, but is every experience bringing me closer to the quality of experience that I ultimately want to have for myself? It sounds like you made that switch in your 20s and 30s, where now every relationship that you have serves a purpose for you. Yeah, definitely. It was, you know, the relationship. I had like three serious relationships in my 20s and especially like the first two when they ended and i think a lot of younger people feel this way you you know it's just like oh well i dated him for x number of years you know it feels

like such a waste uh and it was just kind of flipping the script on the perception of that experience and i didn't you know it's just not seeing it as a waste but And it was just kind of flipping the script on the perception of that experience. And I didn't, you know, it was just not seeing it as a waste, but seeing it as like, wow, wow, I learned a lot, you know, like, I'm glad I won't have to re hopefully not have to redo these arguments and conversations and all the silly fights you have. A lot of it has to do with like, you don't know any better. You're kind of when you fight in a young relationship, you're kind of figuring things out together, like, you don't know any better. You're kind of, when you fight in a young relationship, you're kind of figuring things out together.

Like, you know, your basis of what you were taught versus what you saw on TV or what they said. And you're just kind of like talking it out. Right. And a lot of that is just kind of learning about that. And then, like I said, like that takes an investment. It takes time. And I think your analogy about a job is fantastic, you know, where it's just like, yeah, sure.

You know, if you end up finding your dream job, would it have been cool to like figure out what that dream job was at 18 and have always done that? Great. But that's just not realistic. And it doesn't happen very often. But chances are, you wouldn't have had that dream job. And if you didn't like, you know, work in the mailroom, whatever, whatever it was that like you had to grind it out and pay your dues.

And sometimes you have to pay your dues in relationships. I really love that analogy. I think too, I think my husband, I don't know if I would have picked him at 22. I got married at 33 years old. So I'm a later marriage person. But I don't know if I would have picked him at 22, 24 years old. I think it was through those experiences and trial and error and finding out what environments I thrive the best in was I like, no, I need the nice guy. I need that genuinely nice person who

asks me how I'm doing. And underneath that is somebody who really wants to hear that answer. So sometimes it is those experiences that, you know, maybe they're not, there's a difference between like abusively bad and ones that are just like, oh, that was kind of rough on on my ego. But through that, you're like, I now know going forward what's going to suit me. And again, I don't know if I would have ended up in the relationship that I'm in right now if I didn't spend so many years dating. But again, like I said, like, honestly, if I would have dated the way that I dated at 30, I could have kept going for like two decades. I was having the time of my life. Well, that's that's great.

What made you finally settle down, as they say? Was it just finding the right person? Yeah, I mean, like this is the thing. We started out as friends with benefits, myself and my husband. Then we were in an open relationship. Then it just like naturally, you know, healthy intimacy is making a small advancement

with somebody, stopping and being like, are you cool? Am I cool? Are we comfortable here? Do we feel good? Are we in our zone? Should we go backwards? Should I leave you here and go forwards? And we just kept doing that really slowly until eventually we were married. So it almost in a way feels like there's nothing about it was planned or purposeful. It was just continuing to grow in trust and intimacy. And I like being with you. I like hanging with you. I like experiencing life with you. And I like who I get to be with you. And my partner puts like very few, puts no restrictions on me. So I just, I didn't feel like I was losing anything in this. I thought that I was gaining a partner and I was helping the world understand what our partnership meant. So it just, it felt

like a natural progression. So as the friends of benefits to open relationship, did that stop? Or did you like, how were you able to draw those lines? Or are you guys still in somewhat of an open relationship in your marriage? It's kind of somewhat still open, I would say. I mean, I don't, no one's ever said you can't do anything. We've gotten to a lot of heat online about, you know, because we really were open about our open relationship in the beginning. And it just kind of naturally became, it's just the truth of the matter is, even if you're single, you're not constantly meeting people that you want to engage with. So it's just not, I haven't met anybody in a while that I've wanted to flirt with or hang with or go on a date with.

So our relationship is monogamous presenting, but the option is still there. So I guess it's just a free relationship where I trust him and he trusts me and we just are honest with each other. But it looks like monogamy right now and I'm cool with that. But I'd be cool if he came to me tomorrow and wanted to explore something with somebody. Yeah, I mean, we've talked a lot about this. I mean, we've talked a little bit about open relationships on this show and I find it to be fascinating. I think my audience is fascinated by it because, you know, what was something five, even five years ago, certainly 10 years ago, that was like kind of a non-starter conversation of what was like socially acceptable. Like more

and more people are kind of like, it feels wrong, but like I want to learn more. And for the people, I know I've had some, I have some friends who are married and I've said this before, who kind of like similar to you, it's like they don't like put a label on it, but there's some freedom there of some non non-traditional conversations i'll just say and i gotta say like

there's just the one thing the one theme i've noticed with these relationship is that the communication in those relationships and the trust factor in those relationships are second to none because you're just not afraid to bring up feelings that a lot of every relationship has. The most monogamous relationships, it's like, oh, I had a dream about my ex-boyfriend. I'm attracted to my coworker. And then there's these feelings that you bottle up and people talk about emotional cheating. And again, I'm not saying that you don't have a right in a monogamous relationship to not want your partner to do that, but at least to have the freedom to talk about it with

your partner. I mean, even if you are in a monogamous relationship, to accept the reality that as humans, as red blooded humans, that we have thoughts and desires, and we talk about having our partners be our best friends that we can tell them anything. And it makes it really hard when we can tell them anything except for some of the crazy thoughts that we have without the fear of judgment and playing on their insecurities. And I have found that people in these quasi open relationships, open relationships, whatever you want to call it, that trust in the communication is so strong. And I have found that people in these, you know, quasi open relationships, open relationships, whatever you want to call it, that that trust in the communication is so strong.

And I will say one thing I do want to have in my relationship is that kind of openness to like be able to talk whether we're like in an open relationship or not. I just want to have that trust and communication. Yeah, I think that that's the goal for all relationships. But for some people, their authentic expression that they don't have to try to quell that they genuinely don't have eyes for anybody else Yeah, and that is what I like about Non-monogamy becoming to your point more mainstream now

It just gives people more options and less opportunities to be shitty liars and manipulators in relationships Because if I know I am a non-monogamous person, but the only option for coupling up with somebody, which is a basic human instinct, is to subscribe to monogamy, I'm going to try to force myself into that box. And when I do, maybe I get away with it for six months or six years, but eventually the fact that I am attracted to others, that I get energized by being attracted or flirting with others, that's going to come up and I'm going to end up cheating or betraying my partner. So I like the fact now that we're giving people the option to say, you ain't got to lie. If you

know for a fact that you can't do monogamy well, don't sign up for that. And that's okay because that person can find somebody else. And my channel and the work that I do is, you know, pretty sex positive, or I w I don't know what direction if it's left or right, but it's not like, you know, the average mainstream person is a little out there. And I have a quiz on my website. That's called the commitment quiz. And in it, I have nine different relationship structures. So serial non monogamous dating, or it is casual daters, moonlighters, conventional monogamy, traditional monogamy, open relationships. And through this quiz, over 300,000 people have taken it. And 70% are monogamous or traditional monogamous. So even then, like, don't feel like

the non monogamous people are taking away everybody or destroying love. Monogamy still is the way that most people want to connect. And there's something so, so beautiful about that. But the prevalence now or the conversation around non-monogamy is giving more people options. And hopefully that gives less people an opportunity to force themselves into a relationship that they're going to end up betraying or hurting somebody else in.

Totally. I think that's, I totally agree. And it's interesting you say that, the 70%, because you're right, 70% is a big number. Certainly the majority, that's definitely a vast majority of the people prefer that. 30% is also a big number in terms of just recognizing that three out of 10 people

have some sort of interest or fascination with non-monogamy. And so you're not necessarily thinking about that percentage when you're out there on dating apps expecting to have that implied monogamy. And as a society, that's what we're taught. I always say, don't let shame be your motivator. I think sometimes shame is in there. When we have a feeling, and it goes against the grain of what we're taught, we have a way of judging ourselves and feeling shame, and then we project that. And like I said, I'm not here necessarily promoting open relationships. I think it's just about the communication part. Because I just think even if you have two people,

I'd be willing to bet the 70% of the people who prefer monogamy have still in relationships have had thoughts or eyes for someone else at a moment, right? Doesn't mean they want to act on it. You know, there's a, you know, cheating, you know, like you could, we have thoughts, like the difference between having thoughts and, and,, cheating, you know, like you could, we have thoughts, like the difference between having thoughts and, and, and crossing the line is just like how we, what we do with those thoughts. And it's sometimes just be able to get it out there can make a relationship stronger, you know, without the fear of judgment.

And I think sometimes it's that, that shame of fearing of, is it wrong that I thought this way? It can be a really powerful in a negative way, kind of a thought to like have to hold that in and that guilt and shame. And so I think it's just good that people are talking about it and hopefully can feel that connection with their partner to just have those conversations about, yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like I think this way sometimes. And it, man, it's, I gotta tell you, when I've had these conversations with women

about like thoughts and that person's like, yeah, me too. What a bonding experience to say. Oh, I know, yeah. You know, wow, I feel so much closer to you having told you that I find this other person attractive. Right? And then, and that,

sometimes that's all you really, really need. I don't know. I'm just rambling. I read this book. It's called The Course of Love. And in it, the husband and wife, they do a lot of fantasy role play. And in the fantasy role play one time, the husband brought up a character they both know, like somebody who worked at a coffee shop or something.

And even though the wife found it erotic, she felt like she was supposed to get angry and so it she completely shut him down and you know lectured him and shamed him and got really angry at him and really you know cut that part of the communication off but in truth she actually enjoyed it as well too so that shame kind of works both ways totally you don't it's okay if your partner finds others attractive like you don't feel like you have to get mad at that. If you authentically think that's okay, or you're fascinated by that part of your partner, like that's all right. And it's not a slippery slope. Sometimes all people want to do is fantasize. And that's where the puck stops. Sometimes all people want to do is watch porn. It's not like, oh, that's a gateway drug to prostitution and sex work. Like, you know,

we're adults. Um, you should know people better than that. And if you're with a partner where you can't trust them to give them an inch without them sliding five extra miles, that's when you have to really question if you chose the right person for you. Totally. A couple of things before I let you go.

I just have one question that I don't know the answer to. And then we're gonna play a fun little game called Do You Know Me? But what is BDSM? And I'm reading this thing of, are you and your partner ready for BDSM? I don't know. What is that? You've never heard of it? Oh, bondage, discipline, sadism, and masochism. You never heard of BDSM, Rochelle's saying?

No, no. That's pretty wild. So maybe I'm just not familiar with the acronym. Well, Fifty Shades of Grey? I'm familiar with the movie and the book. I've never seen it. Oh, that's what it is? Okay, gotcha.

Yes, S&M. Oh, yeah, okay, S&M, I guess. Okay, yeah, yeah. I didn't know what that was, sorry. Yeah, so we took out the BD. You know the S&M. So yeah, it's just all that. It's power play.

It's power dynamics in the bedroom. It's mixing pain with pleasure. Um, it's restraints. Uh, it's essentially formed in, in consent, but it's like power play is the basis of it. Somebody who gives pain, somebody who receives pain, but like pain is also like a theoretical word. Cause you don't have necessarily hurt somebody. It could even just be the danger of being tied up with some bunny hand cuffs. But if you want to do that, I think anything else in life, you just got to go slow, go slow and let that person be successful at it. When you try to go too hard, too quickly, it's embarrassing. It gets awkward and you shut down and never want to try it again. So start with something really easy. House household products, use pantyhose as restraints or as blindfolds, get like a little adrenaline spike wheel you can massage your partner with, try those little stuff. And when that works well,

you get really turned on, you know, keep growing and going. That's Christian Gray didn't end up with a red room day one, he had to build his way up to that. Gotcha. What are your thoughts on kind of these non-traditional things, BDSM, porn, choking, slapping, whatever, all these things, and the concept of it being kind of a slippery slope of jumping the shark in bed, so to speak, constantly need to find new exciting things. Like, do you believe in that? Do you think it's negative? Like, what are your just thoughts on that general thought? I don't think it's, I mean, I went to school for sexology. And so there was a certain time when in our studies that I felt this constant pressure to be like trying everything

and knowing everything. And then like midway through, I'm like, I'm just good with vanilla and missionary. Like, I'm going to be honest with myself. Like I don't have a desire to do these things and life is long. I can view them and appreciate them and see why somebody would like it. But life is long. Sex is long. And the brain doesn't actually need a lot to feel like a brand new experience. You don't have to bring in a 70 foot dildo to give that extra oomph a dopamine spike. You could just change the lighting in your bedroom to blue for the night and that would make it feel fresh and different. So it's not a slippery slope. You probably will try something once, want to do it a few more times, maybe put it back in

underneath the bed in that box for six more months, bring it back out. And if it is a slippery slope, it's probably indicating that your partner has a fetish in this area and they really do enjoy it. And now they're starting to discover a part of their sexuality that brings them pleasure. And that's great. You're a part of that discovery. And as long as you like it and you're comfortable with it and you're also finding enjoyment in it, slip on. Like that sounds pretty bomb to me. Yeah, I'm all for it. Well, I really appreciate you sharing this stuff. I feel like we could talk for for hours more. And if you are willing, we'd love to have you back for one of our Ask Nick episodes and you know, actually take some person maybe Yeah, even in person when this ends. But

before we let you go, we always like to play Do You Know Me, a fun game trying to get to know our guests a little bit more. It's real simple how you play. I'm going to ask you a question, and don't say it right away. Rochelle and I are going to guess the answer, and we'll see who knows you better. There's, what, six questions here. Rochelle has selected some of the more sexual ones,

but fitting, you know? I feel like me and Rochelle should play for you. Oh, I don't know. I feel like I know you pretty well. I know him pretty well. Yeah, you definitely would win. We need to find, but you didn't know that he didn't know about BDSM.

That's true. That's true. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if she, I don't, she, well, I don't know. You don't know about BDSM. That's true. That's true. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if she, I don't, she, well,

I don't know. You don't think I know you? Wow. I think, I think you probably know me a lot. And then there's probably some inaccuracies or perceptions, partly because I, I don't share some things.

But, you know, anyways, but that could be fun. Maybe, maybe another time, but right now it's about you, Shan know, anyways. But that could be fun. Maybe another time. But right now it's about you, Shan. All right.

Do you know me with Shan Boudram? Has Shan ever thrown up in a cab? This is not sexual. Shan's a lady. No, I think she... Shan strikes me as someone who likes control uh she's able to give up control but it's almost one of those things where she's in control of her releasing her control and therefore yeah she hasn't she she wouldn't let herself go that far but doesn't mean

she doesn't know how to party she just hasn't thrown up in a cab. I think she's thrown up in a cab. I can see it. I can see it. In college, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm a teetotaler, so I've never thrown up in a cab. And I'm actually not that much of a thrower-upper.

Sometimes I wish I was because throwing up is such sweet release. So when you're not feeling well, it would be a wonderful thing to do. But I don't really have that reflex and I don't drink. So yeah. You don't drink? I don't. Wow. You never have drank?

She's in control. Oh. Still know how to party. Still know how to party. I'm not saying you don't, but I'm saying you do. What's behind that decision? You know what? It was just, uh, it was mainly about wanting to feel like I could make a choice for myself. And I didn't drink for a long time.

I drank in like, you know, high school and I drank cause I didn't like myself. You know, I drank to try to like change my personality or alter my experience or be more relaxed when I knew I wasn't relaxed. And sometimes even doing that puts you in unsafe search situations because you like dulled your own instincts. So when I got to my twenties, I was like, ah, I don't want to do this anymore. When I turned 30, I started drinking a bit and I found that I just couldn't like concentrate. Like people will be talking to me. I just couldn't lean in close enough to like catch what they were saying. And I was like, I don't need this need this it just it doesn't enhance my experience but i also like the taste but all right question number two has shan ever had sex in public and i'm gonna clarify by like i'm not talking about like sex on a balcony at a

resort where no one can see you i mean like you knew someone was watching um i'm gonna say yes oh yeah 100 yes 100 she 100 you guys are both ding ding ding on that one yeah exhibitionist i would honestly like it would be a fantasy of mine to be watched by tons of people. One of my fantasies is having a, I love it. Like I'll sometimes fantasize my exes being in the room while I'm having sex and they're watching me get owned by my man and they can't engage in the thing. And it's the hottest thing to me. Same, same, totally. I'm on board.

I've never done it, but definitely a fantasy. Has Shan ever been injured during sex? What do we define injury? We're not talking like scratching on the back or like a burn from Canada wax. I'm like talking about like a pulled muscle. Or have you injured someone else? Because I feel like guys are more easily injured. Something that like required some sort of medical attention.

Sure. Yes. guys have are more easily injured something that like required some sort of medical attention uh sure yeah yes yes both ways i've heard somebody else and i've oh my gosh what happened to you i tried to do the splits you know i was in a vibe and i thought that i was someone that i this goes back to our earlier thing you got to be true who do you are in the moment you know i was in a vibe and i thought that i was someone that i this goes back to our earlier thing you got to be true who do you are in the moment you know i mean if you didn't practice the splits before during sex is not the time so i ended up like really hurting my leg and having to be on crutches for a bit oh my gosh all right uh does shan know the brand of underwear she is wearing uh sure yeah attention to detail say yes she does Shan know the brand of underwear she is wearing? Sure, yeah. Attention to detail.

Say yes, she does. She got kids, busy time. I'm going to go ahead and say no, no. I do know. These are amazing guys. I feel so loved and known right now. Do you have kids, Shan? No, no, I don't have children. Oh, you don't have kids.

I don't know why i thought that um giving off that motherly vibe okay yeah i'm like can you adopt me my future and shit uh has shan posted on social media in the last hour uh well she's been on this show for the past hour so we'll have has shan posted this morning uh no i don't know the answer yeah i feel like it's part of her like daily ritual she does something in the morning you know a story you're probably right you're probably right i'm gonna still say no let's see oh it's it's a no yeah i'm not a multitasker and so if i'm i was five minutes late for this call so that should be indicative if i was posting on social media i'd not a multitasker and so if i'm i was five minutes late for this call so that should

be indicative if i was posting on social media i'd be a bad person no this is what i was doing this morning uh well all right well um looks like we got to you know shan a little bit better uh thanks for playing shan that's a hundred percent on that yeah we are i'm pretty good at this game shan okay i like reading people i like i like you know i spend an hour listening to their answers and i'm just like i feel like i have them all figured out um yeah that's excellent um but uh i had such a great time chatting with you uh can you before we let you go let people know where they can find you on all your platforms, shows that you're doing, where they can read your stuff, et cetera, et cetera. Yes. So I'm Shan Booty online and booty is spelt with a D.

It is a play on my last name, not my anatomy. So S-H-A-N-B-O-O-D-Y. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate it. You'll have to definitely come back for our Ask Nick episodes. It's been a ton of fun. And it's always great to hear, you know, people in your profession, especially from a woman's point of view, you know, talking about sex, making sex positive, whether you agree or disagree, just kind of opening up the conversations for alternative points of views and, you know, just not, uh, not having you shame yourself or question any question, you know, any thoughts and desires you have, um, you know, are probably fine as long as you are able to address them. So I love that. I love what you're all about. I think it's, it's, it's awesome. And, uh,

congrats on all your success and, uh, excited to see all the things that you are going to be doing. Thank you. That was a beautiful goodbye. Thank you so much, Nick. Thanks, Rachelle. You're welcome. Nice to meet you. All right. Well, take care. And thanks, everyone, obviously, for listening. As always, make sure to send in your questions at asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K. And we always appreciate you listening. Don't forget to send in your reviews. We haven't plugged that in a while. We need to get some reviews up people.

We need, you know, and only five stars. We don't, we don't want your twos, threes, and we're not really interested in critical feedback. We just want,

we want pats on the back really. Anyways, thanks for listening guys. Have a great week. We will see you on Monday.