The Viall Files - E141 What’s Your Type? with Enneagram Guide Jill Moran

Episode Date: June 17, 2020

Have you ever taken an Enneagram Test and wanted some more insight about your results? Well, here ya go! This week we are joined by Jill Moran who is a certified Enneagram Guide. Throughout our conversation Jill explains the 9 personality types and how to use the results of the Enneagram to discover parts of yourself that you can expand on to grow and how to use that knowledge to improve your relationships by understanding each other’s core traits. “I want to be seen but I don’t want you to see me eat all.” Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: INTELLIWHITE: tryindiglow.com CODE: SHOW BETTER HELP: betterhelp.com/viall EACH & EVERY: eachandevery.com/viall Episode Socials: Viall Files @viallfiles Nick Viall @nickviall Krissy Lindquist @thekrissylindquist Jillian Moran @jullthehuman_ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What is going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Vile Files. I am your host, Nick, joined by my producer, Chrissy. Chrissy, how are you doing? I'm doing good. How are you? You're looking fresh. I'm fine. No, not really. I don't know. You look fresh over Zoom. Thanks. Thanks. Hey, we have a really great episode.

I know I mentioned to you guys last week that we were supposed to have Garrett and Becca on. I explained why Garrett and Becca are not on this episode on my last Nick episode on Monday's episode. So if you want an explanation there and you didn't hear it, go back and check out that great episode. And so we are dropping our episode with our Enneagram. Enneagram? Enneagram?

Enneagram? Enneagram. Enneagram. Enneagram. I learned how to say it today. Our expert, Jill Moran. And I got to say, I had a ton of fun talking with Jill and learning a lot

more about Enneagram. Uh, we talk a lot, obviously a lot about relationships on this podcast. We've talked about Enneagrams on this podcast. Uh, it's, it seems to be a fun topic that people recently have gotten into and like horoscopes or other personality tests, we seem to like take this quiz online, read about ourselves and go, yep, that's so me. And then we don't really know what to do with it. And we thought it'd be really helpful to have an expert on,

someone who's studied this type of stuff and give us a lot of insight into what it means to interpret and apply the information you might get from an Enneagram test. So yeah, she got you pretty good. It was a lot of fun. I hope you guys enjoy it. I know we've been very topical recently and talked about some things going on in the world.

And quite honestly, I'm committed to continue to do that. But we do want to mix it up and make sure we're still having some lighthearted, fun conversations. And so I think you guys will really enjoy this one. And yeah, if there's nothing else, Chrissy, I say we kick it off. I say we get to it. Yeah. Hey, Jill, how's it going? Hi, how's it going? I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, I mean, we've, we've talked a lot about, well, actually, no, we haven't talked a lot about Enneagrams on the show. We've talked a little bit about Enneagrams on this show. We talked about relationships a lot, different personalities, and we thought, wouldn't it be fun to get someone on who knows what the hell they're talking about when it comes to Enneagrams?

And so, yeah, Jill is, what are you, an Enneagram expert? How's this? Yeah, I guess I'm an expert. I'm a teacher. I'm a guide, which is really just a coach. But I don't like the coach thing because I just feel like I think about soccer practice when I think of coaches. Not necessarily. How does one become an expert in Enneagrams?

Am I even saying Enneagrams correctly? So it's Enneagram. Enneagram. There you go. It's close. It was good. Do most people say Enneagram? Enneagram.

So I'm just dumb. Okay. No, it's good. No, I was saying it the same way you were, Nick. So there you go. Yeah. Enneagram. How does one become an expert in Enneagrams?

Most of us experts kind of start in a place where we are seeking some sort of wisdom for ourself, for our like selfish gain. So that's how I started in the Enneagram. I started learning, I think the first time I had heard about the Enneagram was about seven years ago. And it's been around for a long time. It's been around in the united states since the 60s that's my i guess great place to start i feel like this is something that i feel like enneagrams like kale like kale's been around forever right right but we never heard of kale like i don't know how long how long has kale been mainstream maybe 10 years but before that it's like they invented kale 10 years ago and now we're always eating kale and Enneagram is like one day

everyone's like what's your Enneagram and I was like what the fuck is an Enneagram totally no yeah and I know and that makes a lot of sense I think a lot of it is social media there's like a lot of meme Enneagram accounts now. It's kind of turning into like astrology type knowledge in a sense where it's like everyone knows like the littlest bit. Like everyone knows they maybe took a test. They know what their number might be. Similar to astrology where I think there's actually a lot more information that astrologists are like hoping that one day we'll wake up to, but we, we don't, we just want the memes. So what is like an Enneagram? Like,

can you give us some history behind it in terms of, is it like astrology or is it more like a scientific, you know, a personality test? Like for example like Myers-Briggs you know how does it different than say something like that or the other personality tests that are out there yeah no that's a great question yeah so the enneagram is super super super old like centuries old it's actually this like nine pointed symbol it's like this witchy symbol i don't know if you guys have seen it i i actually i drew it out for you guys do you see that that's the enneagram that's that's the enneagram what is that based off of so there's like a lot of like weird rumor history about the enneagram but we know that this symbol showed up like pre-Buddhism, pre-Christianity. So it's a

very old system. And in the Greek, Enneagram just means nine-pointed system or symbol. So do we not even know who invented? No. So it's like an old oral tradition. So like a lot of, yes. So like a lot of oral traditions, it's passed down through centuries of teachers of like mystical religious people who like desert fathers and mothers, like way back in Egypt used the system to teach psychology. So talking about the Myers-Briggs, it is similar in the way where it's like a lot of therapists are now like at least aware of the Enneagram.

And I know, I mean, my therapist uses it in our personal sessions, or at least we can like talk the language of the Enneagram. But it is, it's psychology. And the difference between the Enneagram and the Myers-Briggs at a most basic level is Myers-Briggs is telling you so much more about your behavior. And that's why your Myers-Briggs can change over years where the Enneagram is referring to your motivations, to what's driving you and your internal landscape, your internal stories that you're telling yourself. And so it won't change. Your number never changes in the Enneagram. Never. No, no. Yeah. And it is super dynamic. There's a lot of different layers to the Enneagram. And

going back to that symbol, you see your number has two lines attached to it. So you have a number that you start to look like when you're in a place of growth, when you're growing as a human, you might start to take on characteristics of this other number. And when you're in stress, I start as an Enneagram four, I'm the individualist. I start looking like an Enneagram two. I take on the energy of the helper to get my needs met, if that makes sense. Sure. Yeah. Sorry. There there's so much i'm throwing stuff at you already this is this is great i mean i always find these like personality tests interesting um like you said like how you even got into it it's it's fun like whether it's even

horoscopes or myers-briggs or enne I mean, it's fun to learn about ourselves. And since we are all a bit narcissistic and vain, we, you know, like we love to, like, you know, it's fun to take tests and then, and then have a go. Yeah. Oh my God. So me, like I, this, this person sees me. But I think we, we do it like, yeah, I guess that's my question. Big question is how do we apply these quizzes and tests or the Enneagram or, you know, I don't, this is not a discussion about Myers-Briggs or even horoscopes. Like it's fun to take the test. It's fun to read the, Ooh, I'm an achiever. Oh, that sounds flattering. And then like then like oh and then you read some things you'll be like yep that's so me like it's totally me like what do you do with that from that point

other than feeling like someone actually sees you for who you are and it makes you feel like you know you go around be like just you know if you haven't heard I'm an achiever or I'm a helper or I'm a loyalist these are all these all. Like everyone, according to the Enneagram is a wonderful human being. So I'm wondering like, how do we go from like flattering ourselves to applying this information? No. And that, that's like a great question. And a lot of us Enneagram teachers are trying to allow the Enneagram to be a space where people start to actually ask that question. Like, how can I not just be this stereotypical box that this test has put me in, right? And I think like, I did hear one Enneagram teacher say one time that the Enneagram is like a palace. And knowing your Enneagram number is like the door. So people come to the door,

they know their number and then they stop. But there's like gardens and libraries and like beautiful things within the palace that you never get to because you're like just stoked on what your number is. But I actually know when people are really doing Enneagram work and really like doing like self work, self-reflection work when their Enneagram number becomes not so cool to them. Like they're not so stoked on it because they start to like dive into the shadow side, just like, which shadow side is like an Enneagram term, but like just the harder aspects of the things that are driving us. And when you're starting to pay attention to those and you see those patterns start happening in your life over and over and over again, that's when you either feel stuck or you start diving into like why those

patterns are there and where they started and how you can start to heal those patterns. So that's really what the Enneagram is for. We say in the Enneagram that you actually have all nine types inside of you. And our goal isn't to stick you in your type, but to have you grow to be able to love like all nine numbers, not just your like egocentric way of loving people, right? Like we want to grow to be able to love people in all different sorts of ways. So how do we do that? So we can start at like the test, right? So y'all both took the test, right? I took the test a while ago. I'm a three wing four. Yes. Okay. So the first thing is, is there's no Enneagram real,

there's no real Enneagram test. Oh, what do you mean by that? Cause yeah, I mean, I took something, uh, uh, it was like passed around by a friend. It seemed pretty expansive. Like it was, it took me, you know, not like forever, but like, it wasn't as if like, it was a five question test and like, this is who you are based off of five basic questions. Like mine took like 10 minutes. So there's a lot of Enneagram tests out there and what those are just tests that like creator, like Enneagram creators and like professionals have created,

but the Enneagram isn't supposed to be something that you find through a test. And actually the best teachers will tell you that tests are only 60% accurate. So hearing your types, I would say like that's a good first step to start to bring in some self-awareness to what you're hearing and how it's like fitting into your life. It's just the first step. And I actually tell people not to like start with a test, but to start with just like paying attention to what you pay attention to in like your thought center and your heart and like where your feelings are and like when you get triggered and all those things, those things will come up in the Enneagram if you have a level of self-awareness. So first step, learn about yourself, learn about what drives you, then start learning about the Enneagram.

Start reading a book, a podcast, get like a guide or a coach to help you to start to like see what's going on and what's underneath your behavior. So that's where you start. And then going to your question of like, how do we use this? Like, how do we use the shit to like actually become better people? I think there's, there's, the Enneagram is like a roadmap for you. So, so like I said, every number has a stress line and a growth line. That's really important data for me to start to understand where I can start to move to. And what is the medicine to like, what's the antidote to the harder, like heavier shit

in my personality and how can I balance it? So for me personally, I'll just like speak to it personally. I'm a four. I'm an individualist or the romantic and fours go to one when they're in health. So ones are the perfectionist and fours, especially when we're in unhealth, we get really trapped in our heart spaces. We're like the most emotional type in our head. So we start thinking about our feelings and feeling about our thinking. And I have trouble getting to a place where I actually start doing stuff.

Like putting myself out there to a place to like get out of like my internal like self-talk is really, really hard for me. But I know when I'm starting to actually like put my ideas into the world that I'm in a place of growth. So that's just like one example of how the Enneagram is useful for growth. All right. You guys know I drink a lot of coffee. If you have been watching this podcast at all. And my teeth have gotten a little stained. And quite honestly, up until this point, I've been resistant to teeth whitening stuff. As an influencer, it's like the running joke.

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not necessarily what they talked about, but just how much it's really helped them. And we appreciate you guys doing so. I want you to start living a happier life. So as a listener, you'll get 10% off your first month by going to betterhelp.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Join over 800,000 people taking charge of their mental health today. Again, that's betterhelp.com slash V-I-A-L-L. But you're saying to really apply it. I mean, these tests, I know you said they're kind of created by experts and there's no standard format. But like you said, the average person out there like firstly this will go to memes it's fun to talk about but

for example like using myself as an example i took some random test i don't know who created the test i just like oh okay here it is um and again according to the test, I'm a three wing four. Uh, and that was like neat. Okay. That sounds pretty accurate actually. Um, is there something I can like, is that just a fun exercise or is that, like you said, I know you recommend not starting there, but if someone was like, didn't like seek out an expert. Right. And I'm like, my question is, is like, are you saying,

um, this is, is this like a therapy method? Like for the person who's just like, again, just trying to have fun or, or maybe, you know, maybe they've had three or four relationships that didn't work out and they're kind of in this period in their life where they're just like, you know what, maybe I need to like take a step back and assess myself before I move on to my next relationship because I wonder if I'm being, I'm wondering if this is a me problem, you know, in relationships and maybe they're internalizing that.

Do they have to really kind of do a deep dive or the tests are just, that's just a fun exercise? If you want to do it for fun, like do it for fun. Like that's, that's cool. And, and it, like you said, like tests are really fun. And I think like any sort of information that again, is going to like take you to a deeper level of like why you do what you do, like even the basic lot, like the basic first level of information will be helpful if you're looking for that. And like going back to what you said about people, like I watch your show. So I hear a lot of people asking like, why do I keep doing the same thing, right? Like the same thing keeps happening to me, or like I go after the same type of person over and over again. Why is that happening? And I think we're often looking for like behavior changes or like ways to fix how we act, but there are

specific things that are underneath why we're doing what we're doing that we can start to pay attention to. So like, yes, we can use the Enneagram for fun, but if we're going to start to dive into like what the Enneagram is for, which is for our deeper motivations, it will be helpful to start to figure out why you're actually doing the shit that you're doing and how we can start to like maybe change our inner dialogue instead of just like fixing our performance because underneath our performance we're still like have these messed up narratives that we're working with right for argument's sake let's assume that i'd been really diving in and i I'm in fact a three wing four,

even though I'm only basing this off a test. But since, how do I, like, let's just use me as an example. How do I use that to better understand myself? And like you said, I mean, like, I'm assuming when you say kind of the shadows, it's like I'm reading the achiever, the success oriented, pragmatic type, adaptive, excelling, driven, image conscious.

I'm like thinking that's all sounds pretty great. Image conscious sounds a little vain, but like whatever, not a big deal. I'm an amazing person. Three, you know, wing four, sensitive, withdrawn type, expressive, dramatic, self-absorbed, temperamental. Okay. That doesn't sound as complimentary, but like, I'll take it. But like, so what does that mean to be something and then a wing? And then if that, if that is in fact me, how do I take this information and start to better understand why I do what I do? That, that might be self-destructive. Uh-huh. That's, that's a great question. So if you are a three with, with a wing four, I, okay. So first of all, you're not supposed to type people. So like,

I, I'm going to give you my two cents about like what I see. Um, but like, don't take what I say as like the ultimate truth. Cause again, it goes back to motivation. You're going to say like not necessary for, based off. Yeah. Okay. Well, yes. So, so I, this is what you would do. This is what you would do if you were to talk to like anyone. Yes. I would, I would say, I am curious about a few numbers for you and, and what drives you.

And so we could start to have a conversation about what those things are. Three is one of them that I really do see in the little bit that I know about you. And it's actually, I see three numbers that are right next to each other for you, which is the three, the four, and the five. The four is the individualist and the five is the observer. The four is the individualist and the five is the observer. And I see all three of those in your behavior, at least. I don't know what's driving that behavior. But say you are a three with a four wing.

So we can start by just like talking about the basic fears of the three, the basic motivations of the three, and some of the stories that have created who the three is. So is that cool? Can we dive into some of that? Okay. So the basic fear of the Enneagram three is that at their core, they're worthless or don't hold value apart from what they do. So they start to attach their identity more to what comes to them and what they achieve to who they are inside. And because of this, the Enneagram threes very, very early on in their life became people that could walk into a room and they're like chameleons. They know who they need to be to impress the people around them, to achieve whatever this idea that the other people hold about them to get their needs met, to have the Enneagram threes needs met.

Interesting. I don't feel like I've done that. Okay. Yes. Okay. So this is where I'm more like the, I definitely relate to the idea of attaching my self-worth to achievement. Like that is something I very much relate to where it's just like, I, I attribute almost all of my personal self-worth to my accomplishments. So that I really, yeah. However, I've stubbornly been like, I walk into a room and I'm more like, this is who I am. Fuck it. Deal with it.

And I can be a chameleon if I want to, but I don't like being it. I'm resistant to it. Have you always been that way where it's more like, fuck it, like I want to be real I don't like being it. I'm resistant to it. Have you always been that way where it's more like, fuck it. Like I want to be real. Or is that something you've learned? No, I've always been that way. Okay. So those are more four qualities. And that's why I was wrestling with this for you is, and it's funny. Okay. So I'm a big bachelor guy. Like I'm a big bachelor person. I love the bachelor. So I'll like go a big bachelor guy. Like I'm a big bachelor person. I love the bachelor.

So I'll like go to some bachelor people. And I think I love the bachelor for the same reason I love the Enneagram. It's like about people. It's about why people, people are the way they are, you know? So, okay. Ben Higgins says he's a four. Okay. Ben, just for reference, I got the quiz from Ben.

Cool. That makes sense. Okay. So he, who knows if he'll ever listen to this, but he strikes me more as a three because threes have this awareness of who they need to be in a room for others. I would agree with that. I mean, I would agree in terms of Ben, he's very on.

So I think he says he's probably a four-wing three. So this is like, it really does come down to motivation. But for him, it seems like he is really good at relating to a room and being what people need, where I see more four tendencies in you to really value authenticity above performance. And those are very four qualities. Fours were like, I need you to be real with me right now. We're going to be able to tell if you're fake. We know what's going on underneath your fakeness anyway. So let's just all be who we are and be cool with that. That would be more me, yeah. Okay, so the motivation behind an Enneagram 4 is to have emotional authenticity,

to find meaning, and to find themselves. Which means? emotional authenticity to find meaning and to find themselves which means which which means okay well for me so I am an Enneagram for so in childhood and and we'll start to like talk about like childhood messages because they really do it that's kind of where this Enneagram model comes from is from the things that we hear in childhood and and a lot of people this is where I get a lot of pushback with the Enneagram because a lot of people will say like no I had great parents like they were awesome we had a great relationship everything was perfect and and I think that that can be true I loved I love my parents they're great well i mean great

parents still can fuck you up a little bit i don't mean fuck you up like in a way of like true like you know you're messed up but like what parents especially back in the day they would just like you know get married in their early 20s be like let's just have a kid and then they would figure it out and a kid and then they would figure it out and a lot of what they taught you was based off of what they again learned from their parents and i mean the 1950s was exactly like a a playbook of like great child rearing i mean you know like we all just kind of figured out and we've talked about some of the things that are going on in our country like not necessarily bad but like you, you know, you learn some shit

and you're just like, well, I'll be honest, it seems a little fucked up nowadays, you know? All well-intentioned, you know? And overall, I mean, I had an amazing, you know, I've said this over and over. I felt loved and cared for. It doesn't mean our parents got it right 100% of the time. So I get what you're saying.

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And I'm thankful that like my parents have grown enough in their own life that they can look back and be like, yeah, we did fuck up in these ways. And like, those are super healing conversations to have with your family if they're willing to have those conversations. But also I'm assuming like dynamic too. if they're willing to have those conversations. But also I'm assuming like dynamic too, like I have 10 siblings and like I'm assuming myself or even my siblings have an Enneagram

based off of that childhood in terms of my parents, again, talking about always being focused on giving everyone attention. But I know for a fact that all of my siblings don't have the same perspective of the attention they did or didn't receive as a kid. Yeah, same with me and my siblings. We're all very different.

There's four of us, and we had four different upbringings. But my sister and I are two and a half years apart, and we paid attention to very different things that our parents did and didn't do, which is a really interesting, like, and that's like a nurture versus nature conversation about like where your Enneagram type comes from. But anyway, so like the Enneagram four in childhood, whether this is like my parents' fault or just like the way I'm wired, I was deeply desiring my parents to understand me on an emotional level. Like it was really important that they had conversations with me about what I was feeling. I didn't know that at the time and I

didn't realize that it was missing. But what I did know is I felt a level of being misunderstood and unseen in my childhood. And because of that, that kind of creates this internal dialogue unconsciously because most of our Enneagram behavior is unconscious, where I started to feel like maybe I didn't have an identity and, and maybe like I was like unwanted or like didn't have significance just because I was really seeking like a different level of significance with my parents. And so that drives a life for looking for my significance, finding

meaning in everyone else around me, but like looking to myself and being like, who the heck am I inside, you know? And how do I bring that out into the world? So I don't know if you relate to that. That part, not as much. Okay. I mean, I'm a heady person. So,'ve always been, like, I joke with my family that I'm an only child with 10 siblings. What do you mean by that? sister and then it's me and then I have two sisters. So in my very early childhood, I was the only boy. I was the first boy. I was the only boy. And so I never lacked attention. I was really big into athletics and I excelled in athletics at an early age. And so I, again, I just, and I always, I never lacked attention and therefore like interactions like I was never a tattler like my sisters would constantly tattle on me and I just didn't give a shit like what they

did like I was just thinking like if you're I don't I don't care what you're doing it's not my problem like I was and you I was just focused on me uh and as a result I've never felt like uh even my childhood I never felt that way now throughout my life I've never felt like, even in my childhood, I never felt that way. Now, throughout my life, I've always felt misunderstood, especially by people on the peripheral, like not necessarily by people who get to know me, but I'm often told I'm hard to read, which I think I can be. And sometimes that's fun because I like to be mysterious. But at the same time, like people will then like to make a lot of assumptions about me based off of

like, well, I mean, I don't know how to read you, but I'm going to go ahead and guess. And then therefore they do that. And then I'm annoyed, if that makes sense. No, that makes complete sense. And I think that it sounds like there's some four in there for sure. I mean. Oh, yeah. When you say four, like I definitely relate to it. But I'm saying like this as a kid, I never felt I don't ever I don't have a memory of feeling like a feeling my parents didn't understand me. Yeah. Yeah. Just do you remember feeling misunderstood by the world? I know you said you were like... I mean, yes. In high school, yeah, for sure. I've always kind of been this enigma my whole life where I...

It's high school, so I don't know how you... I was big into sports, but I liked art and I liked fashion and I liked to dance in high school. And again, when you're in high school, people like say the bachelor, they like to, you know, place you in these buckets, right. And identify like labels and things to you, especially growing up in, you know, the Midwest and, um, and in the early 2000s, like, you know, we weren't as progressive now as we were then in general. And again, as a result of being tall and aloof, people can also just like want to make certain assumptions. So again, like, I that's where I feel like I was misunderstood, especially from high school, is that people would be quick. People want to feel comfortable in a room with you. They want to be able to understand who these people are

that you're dealing with. And I'm often closed off. It's a me problem. That's where it's irritating for me. I sometimes get off on the fact that I'm hard to read and then annoyed that I misunderstood, which is like a total like contradiction. And totally. So, so the Enneagram, so we talk about Enneagram fours. We, we say that like, because of this like misunderstanding feeling that we have, that I have, maybe you have, there's like this push and pull in relationships where we like really want to be seen, but we also don't want to be seen at all. And I really relate to that. And similar to you, I mean, I don't know what your high school experience was per se, but like, I really worked hard to win the attention of like

those around me, you know, like I, I ended up on the homecoming court and like all of those things and I worked really hard for it. But the whole time I felt like I was, I was an outsider. Like even on the inside, I had this feeling of being an outsider. And they say for Enneagram fours, we like, it's like we have, we're watching a party and we're like watching through the window and our nose is pressed against the glass. And we're like, please invite me inside. Like, just invite me to this party. Like, I really want to be a part of who you are. And then we get invited inside and we like, feel like we don't belong. So there's this push and pull of like, we're in, but we also don't want to be in. You just want to be wanted. Just want to be wanted. And there's like a deeper level of wanting to be seen there, right? Like,

I want to be seen for who I really am, not because I'm like, I belong to this whatever group. not because I'm like, I belong to this whatever group. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, yeah, yeah. I relate to that. Just, yeah, you do. Just tell me I'm great, but I don't want to hang out with you. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, I mean, you could be a four, you could be a three and like, what you said five though, investigator. Yeah. So, so five is the investigator. Yeah. So five is the investigator. So what's interesting about the Enneagram, just for like some background on this, there's three centers of intelligence within the Enneagram. So there's a head center, a heart center, and a body center. And there's three numbers that are in all three of those categories. So like we all use our head, our heart and our gut to know things, but all of us have a core, a core way that we choose to like view the world through.

So which, which ones are which? Yeah. So the twos, threes and fours are the heart center. The fives, the sixes and the sevens are the head center and that's why i'm starting to bring this into the conversation because we're moving into a different center and then the uh eights nines and ones are the body center they're like gut people they feel things instinctually they're people that say like go with your gut a say like, go with your gut a lot. I say go with my gut a lot, but I say it, but like, I don't know. I'm very instinctual, more with other people than myself. How does that matter when like, I'm good at reading people. I'm good at reading situations. I don't know if that has anything to do with myself or my Enneagram number. That's a three quality.

That's a three quality. Okay. Yeah. It's part of that chameleon thing because like, you know what those people need in a sense. So you're saying as if I am a three, three ring, four, four, four ring, three, I can't even talk. four, four, four, ring, three, I can't even talk. You're saying that I have the ability to be the chameleon, but my four is stopping me from actually doing it.

Which comes back to your motivation, which is why I would say it's so important when we're talking about the Enneagram to pay more attention to the motivation than to what you do, because you could be a chameleon, but you're choosing not to for some like core motivation reasons. And I think that that's the important thing. There's a part of me when you, when I say that, right? Like at my, I relate to that at my core. I'm just like, I can't do it. I can't live with myself knowing that I walk into a room and I'm even the slightest bit inauthentic just to make someone else happy. Yeah. Why is that? Well, a couple reasons. One, it feels inauthentic to myself. I don't know how else to say this without like, I don't know how else to say this without like, I feel even in relationships, sometimes I don't want to have too much power.

What I mean by that is I don't want to feel like I'm manipulating you. I know I can be manipulative. I know I have the ability to do that. I know I can read people. I know I can say what they want to hear. And I feel uncomfortable, especially in relationships that matter to me, if I feel like I'm doing that. Because it feels, it doesn't feel authentic. Well, it feels toxic in a sense. Like if I were in a relationship that's meaningful,

like let's say romantic. And I was just like, I felt like I could read their emotions and I could read what they want I knew what they wanted me to say but I didn't totally feel that way but they wanted it like I would be resistant to doing it because therefore I would think that that's not a relationship that's a I don't know what that is but it's not something I want and I think that's quite honestly been what some of my biggest challenges because I'm often, I feel like I'm in those situations. And so where you feel manipulative in relationships, not, I feel like I could be, or, and you know, I mean, if we're really getting in the weeds, then like, then the other person, like every relationship I'm not manipulative, like, but every relationship

you want to have that feeling. And so I've ended up dating people that will do their version of pushing back and like, but then that just turns into a fight because I'm just like, I don't know. But yes, I feel that like, that's something I struggle with. From my perspective, what it sounds like you're struggling with is like desiring a meaningful relationship where you really see each other. And, and I really relate to that, um, in, in my relationship as well. And, and I can also be emotionally manipulative, I think to a certain degree, I, I'm a four with a three wing. to a certain degree. I'm a four with a three wing. And the way that comes out for me a lot of the time, I'm married. And especially early on, like Enneagram stuff was super important

for our relationship because we, I mean, our relationship started off so, so intense. And we didn't honestly... Like in a good way, honeymoon phase way, or like you were fighting immediately? Fighting immediately. Yeah. I got married when I was 22. Okay. I don't know. We just like, I came from, I like graduated from a Bible school in Michigan. And then two weeks later, I got married to my husband. So I had never lived alone. I was in this small Michigan community of people that looked like me and thought like me and all the things. And then my husband and I, we got married super young and then moved to Chicago.

I was completely isolated. I didn't know how to interact well with my husband. I didn't know who he was. We didn't know how to interact well with my husband. I didn't know who he was. We didn't know who each other were. And, and it, it really set us up in a lot of ways for failure. Um, and the Enneagram was super helpful because like, I saw those patterns come out in me in ways that like, I really needed to start to understand myself and I needed to understand my husband and like for me like the the manipulation piece comes out when I feel unloved or like misunderstood or unseen I'll start to like push and create like I don't know, I guess like a narrative. Yeah, absolutely. Push until I get my needs met,

like continue to emotionally push to figure out a way for him to give me what I want, which is codependency at its best, right? Like we all do that in relationships. I've struggled with that on the flip side. Like again, being someone who can read situations, struggle with that on the flip side like again being someone who can read situations there's nothing that irritates me more than if i feel like i'm being when i feel like someone's trying to manipulate me and i again not like in a like like conscious way conscious or unconsciously if i feel like their actions are inauthentic to what they were really trying to accomplish, I get so fucking irritated. I'm just like, you don't really mean that. And you're just saying it to get a reaction. And knowing that you're doing that makes me annoyed.

Yeah, totally. No, no, that makes complete sense. Yeah. And so my husband, he's a five on the Enneagram, which is the observer, which is what we were going to talk about, but it's okay. We're going full circle. But the Enneagram five, they felt in childhood, they were super overwhelmed by the world. They're super sensitive, but Enneagram fives kind of get this bad rep of not seeming very emotional, actually seeming more robotic, more logical. very emotional, actually seeming like more robotic, more logical. And that's because like the world was so overwhelming to them that they kind of started to hide up in their heads. What do you mean by the world was so overwhelming to them? Because that sounds like, well, that sounds like a big statement. So what, I mean, because when you say analytical, but sensitive, I can relate to that, but I never felt like the world was too much for me to handle.

Yeah. And if you ask an Enneagram 5 about that, they'll be like, oh, no, the world was too much. Like I couldn't handle it. They're typically like people who are super, super introverted, people that don't want to be controlled by the environment around them people that feel like they don't have a lot of energy like inside of them so they retreat a lot of the time these these are people who retreat so you can guess in my marriage as I would like continue to desire to be seen and heard like my husband would just like feel emotionally overwhelmed and start to like back up and back up and back up. And that turned into like our cycle in so many ways. But the Enneagram was super helpful because I then could realize like, oh, when he's retreating, like that's not about me. Like that's space that he needs to process and feel

less overwhelmed. And if I can give him that space, then he will be able to come back and, like, connect with me better. No, that's really helpful. I mean, again, if you're talking about understanding Enneagram as a way or as a tool to like either help yourself, whether you're single, if you're in a relationship, me again, it's, it's fun to take a test and be like, Oh, that's so me. Um, ha ha ha. Like I'm an achiever. Um, but yes, like we're often in relationships and any relationship, co-working relationship, romantic relationship, where we feel the disconnect. And you talk about compatibility.

I recently had a conversation with someone that I was dating, and the question was like, well, what if we're not compatible about this thing? And I was like, we're not compatible about that thing? And I was like, we're not compatible about that thing. But I don't know what that means about everything else. I mean, you can't, you know, it's like voting in a two party system. Like if you're honest about each individual topic that you might vote upon, like, you're never going to find a candidate that, you know, meets all those needs. So therefore, like, then how do you take these

things that you're incompatible about, right? Like, here you are as the individualist who, like, it sounds like the way you described it was almost in direct contradiction to what might be compatible with investigators. So instead of saying, well, fuck it, we're not compatible, let's break up or get divorced. You're like, All right, well, how do I understand the point of view they're coming from? So that when we get to that situation, you know, again, it's like building, you know, you know, you're not going to expect the other person to jump across the river, you build a bridge, you meet in the middle, like, how do you and so I'm assuming, yeah, that's good for it to hear is that you're these enneagrams and like diving deep, ideally would help you see the point of view of your partner.

And not only that, but see how you guys can, again, bridge the gap. Totally. Yeah, no. And people always ask like which Enneagram numbers go best together or like which ones don't work out. And speaking to your point, like I say, work out. And speaking to your point, like I say, no, like all nine Enneagram numbers are going to trigger you in different ways. Like that's just true about all of us. Like there are things inside every type of Enneagram number, especially if people are like not in a place of health where

I can start to see how those specific traits are really affecting me. And similarly, on the other side, like we all have gifts, right? Like we all have beautiful things that we bring to a relationship. So if we can like work with those, as you say, and really come to a place of like, again, not like looking at behavior, but understanding why those things are the way they are and like have compassion and empathy for our partners and use it as a tool to like get to know them in a deeper way, which I hope that we're all doing with our partners for our whole entire life that we have a partner. Like, I think that's, that's much more beautiful

than just like being compatible. Like you said, like to a certain degree, yeah, maybe some people work in, in a way where it seems easier than others, but there's such a beautiful aspect of like my marriage where we've really had to work to get to know who the other person is at a heart level. And I, I wouldn't trade that just because it's hard. Like I would rather have that. So let's, let's run down the list of some of the other ones since we've been talking about ourselves. So, so six, six, six is the, uh, the loyalist. And if someone's primarily a six, what does that mean to be the loyalist? Yeah, so the loyalists are like the most fearful number on the Enneagram.

So people in the head triad, five, sixes, and sevens, they're solving for safety and security. That's kind of like their main objective. And they struggle mostly with fear. People in the heart triad are struggling mostly with shame and are seeking attention and validation. People in the gut triad are focused on autonomy and respect and struggle with anger to a certain degree. So the sixes, their struggle with fear, they often in relationships see protection and love in the same category because they deeply want to be affirmed, protected, guided, supported. So these are people that are constantly kind of like checking you, like, are we good? Are we good? We're friends, right? Like, we love each other, right? And there are also people that have learned to really protect themselves through solving everything around them. worst worst case scenario thinkers um they're they've got a solution for all the worst case

things that could happen in the world to us that feels like pessimism but to them it just feels like being real and honest so um yeah i think like when it comes back to the bachelor world i again i like i don't, please don't think like, I'm going to get policed by the Enneagram police to like not do this. It's really not allowed. I mean, it's, it's, it's like, you know, like if you're doing this off a show, you can only like gain, gain so much knowledge. Ben, how like Ben, like Ben has a podcast.

I have a podcast. We've, we've put ourselves out there in ways that I guess if you wanted to like still it's not like knowing us but i get what you're well yeah and and like again when i'm watching the bachelor like i'm i'm kind of seeing it through an enneagram lens i'm like trying to figure out why they're doing what so we'll put out the disclaimer that you're not disclaimer yeah but who's the six i think jared falls into the jared haven yeah yeah yeah he falls into the six category from what i understand he constantly is trying to oh yes he's fearful of what may happen so he's going through all the scenarios that could happen he's he's insanely risk averse and yes he he likes his comfort and he does check in. Yeah. I also think that Vanessa, to a certain degree, could have also been a six or is a six.

I don't know her as well. I mean, her and Jared are very different. See, and that's why it's so important to pay attention to motivation. Can you have different? Yeah, there's a question. Like, could two people be sixes? Yes. And seem like completely different people on the surface. Absolutely. So like we can, we'll talk, we'll talk about all of them, but like Enneagram ones, they're the perfectionist. So they're like people

that are constantly trying to do the right thing, say the right words. Like they're really aware of like good and evil, but you could be a democratic Enneagram one, or you could be a Republican one. And, and you might start to hear like similar types of arguments and language, but they have completely opposing views because what their morality is based on is different from each other. So it is interesting.

Well, I mean like you get political stuff. It's like all strongly based on our childhood and our religious beliefs and our communities and what we're told. But yes, our ability to defend those beliefs and apply them like has nothing really to do with how we might vote. You know, we're just. Absolutely. Yeah. And there's even like deeper levels to this that we don't have to get into, but there's like three subtypes within every enneagram type so you can be like a one-to-one sexual for you can be a social for or you can be a self-preservation for so there's another level

and we don't have to talk about that because there's like books that are like giant on that. So, but there's, there's a reason why you can look very different from each other and still be the same number. So. Gotcha. Anyway, so should we just go around? Yeah. You know, that's, yeah, let's move on to seven. Sevens are the enthusiast. Okay. Yeah. So, so you got seven on the test and then you got two, right? Yes.

Okay. So one of the common... That sounds about right. Not that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. So you had done something that is like very common for people in the Enneagram to do, which is to think that your second test result means that that's your wing, but your wings are actually the number on each side of your Enneagram number. So you actually can't be a seven wing two.

You would have to be a seven with your wings would be eight and six, or you might be a two. So that's something to look into. And that's a common misconception. So that's probably good that we can address that. Wait, so some tests you took, Chrissy, said seven two? Yeah. Well, that's a common misconception. So that's probably good that we can address that. Wait. So some tests you took, Chrissy, said seven, two? Yeah. Well, that's a bullshit test.

It said seven, two, and then one. Tests, man. That's what I'm saying. But my three wing four at least sounded accurate. So wait. So you're saying, accurate. So wait, so you're saying, because if you see three, four and five, then if there's five in me, then I have to be a four with, with, with, with, with hints of three and five. It's like, it's like tasting a wine. Yes, totally. Yeah. And some people really like their wing number and their core number are so close that it's hard to know so i don't know again it takes time but anyway so the enneagram sevens they're called the enthusiasts it's interesting because like enneagram sevens don't feel like they struggle with fear at all they're

like the peter pans of the enneagram they're like super stoked on their pan tattoo on my back shoulder. Well, that makes so much sense. I'm so messed up. Yeah, Enneagram 7s are like super joy-filled, energy-filled people who are constantly looking for the newest and latest experience to bring them life. So the undercurrent of this, I guess you could say, is that Enneagram 7s have a really hard time feeling negative emotions. They have a hard time dealing with the anxiety that's inside of them. So they're using experiences and they're using new things, new and exciting things to cover up their sense of anxiety. Do you resonate with that? Yep.

A hundred percent. Yeah. That's me. That's awesome. Yeah. So sevens, as they grow, they learn to sit with their pain. They learn to be people that can sit with the low emotions as much as the high emotions. And if they don't do that, I mean, I've had Enneagram sevens that if they don't do

their work, they can really hurt the people around them because if you bring something that is hurt, like hard for you, they can't even sit with it because they are like running from it in themselves that they have a hard time sitting with it in other people as well. So yeah, but they're beautiful people. They're so fun. It's always important to have a seven around for sure. So those are sevens. Enneagram eights are called the challengers or the leaders. Enneagram eights are really focused on control. So they're going to try to control their way out of their anger. And there's this sense in an Enneagram eight that they really need to protect themselves and others, especially the weak. They're really worried about justice.

They're people that concern themselves with the lives of others and constantly want to do things to make the world better. So a lot of Enneagram 8s in childhood felt like they had to grow up too fast. And so the underside of the eight is that they didn't really ever get to be a kid. They didn't get to experience their vulnerability to a certain degree. So as eights grow, they become more vulnerable. In Bachelor Nation, I think Rachel Lindsay is an eight. I think, what's her name? On Ari's season, the villain on Ari's season. The villain on Ari's season. Oh, Coach Crystal.

I think that Demi could be an eight as well. Kind of this like tough exterior. Yeah, I could see that for Demi first. Yeah. Yeah, I could see that for Demi first. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I think Rachel, I don't know if she knows the Enneagram. I would be interested to hear if she did and find out what her number is.

But so Enneagram nines are called the peacemaker. Enneagram nines are concerned with putting their needs at a lower level than the people around them to continue to have connection with others. They're really worried about like losing the connection and the relationships around them. So they focus more on what you want than what they want because they don't want to stir the pot. These are people that really don't want conflict. They're very conflict averse. And they will kind of do anything to keep this peace.

They have this layer, we call it, like this spongy layer that kind of keeps the outside out there and their internal worlds like inside and pressed down. But the thing about Enneagram 9s is they're constantly feeling everything that's around them because they've put everyone else's needs at such a high place. So they really, really have a level of empathy that they carry with them that is super super beautiful and and if they can learn to have that same compassion for themselves as they do for others they become really really beautiful leaders um so so the enneagram ones um oh i think we've we've covered one have we not no yeah a little bit. They're the perfectionist. They're also in the anger triad, but because anger is not like good,

it's not like a good thing for people to have. They've kind of turned their anger inward towards themselves. And they have this internal critic that's constantly telling them to do better. Like do better, be better. This isn't enough. Like those are voices that ones are constantly hearing. Um, but one ones are people that will walk into a room and see what needs to be different, see what needs to be better. And, um, there are people that are going to focus on like the right words, the right way to appear good. And then twos would be the last one.

So twos are the helper. These are people who need to be needed. They have a fear that they might be unlovable at their core. So they desire to get love through meeting the needs of people around them. These are people that are like super outwardly heart led. So like their emotions are written on their face. They like cry easy. They're like really fun and loving and just like they're the people that in high school like they gave us all a ride home and we told them we would give them gas money and then we never did.

I can see that Ben's a three with wings four and two. Yeah. Yeah, I could see that too. Again, like only Ben can say, but I see that. I would love to hear what he thinks about that. You talked about kind of the shadow element of this. element of this and as you were going through this list you you describe it in a way that assumes everyone is inherently good but the reality is that's not true well i mean i'm an optimist i think people the majority of people are inherently good but there are some like

there are some misguided people shitty people um people have lost their way so to speak and we've all been in moments in our in our lives where we're not our best selves like how can we like how does this how do you apply the enneagram to like assess those people who you know the toxic partner in our lives are are there people are people, are there like the Enneagram numbers? Can anyone just be toxic just because of their, you know, childhood or who they've become as adults? Or are certain numbers more likely to be toxic people in relationships? Or does it have to do with the match? I truly believe that every one of these numbers could become a toxic person or partner. I think like if you go to the Enneagram Institute, I don't know if that's where you are

getting your information from, but they have a list of like what Enneagram fives look like at their best and what they look like at their very worst. Gotcha. And so I think it all comes out different ways. And to a certain degree, I do believe that all of those things are coming from these core needs that we all need and are good things, right? Everyone always says, that wasn't my intention. I had good intentions. And I truly, to a degree, believe that that's true about almost all people. I believe that they believe it. Yeah, right. Okay. Well, think about when someone says

it's well-intentioned, we've talked about Garrett and his comments he's made. I believe that he believes he had the best intentions. That doesn't mean he is right or wrong. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, and you know, they say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions because like you can mask anything you do by saying, well, I meant well, but if you're closed off to how your actions and intentions affect people outside of your peripheral, then, you know,

as especially adults, you know, that can be harmful to people if you're closed off. A good thing to go back to is just like what I was saying about my relationship, like being emotionally like overbearing towards my partner because I don't feel loved and I don't feel understood. Like those are fine motivations, but that doesn't mean that those are good things to do to my partner. And I think it's the same thing. And I think the more we don't understand those core motivations, the more we end up trying to get them places that aren't healthy and continue to try to like spiral from our good core motivations. So like coming back to like the shadow side of all numbers,

like there's this thing called the vice of every number. Like every number has a core vice, like a core trap that they fall into. And every number has a virtue, like a thing that you can work on to like be the medicine to your vice. So if I just go down the list, like the perfectionist struggles with resentment, the helper struggles with pride, the achiever struggles with deceit, the enneagram four, the individualist struggles with envy, the observer, the five struggles with avarice, which kind of means greed. And that's a little bit confusing, but it's more like hoarding time, hoarding energy,

wanting to be alone. The Loyalist struggles with fear and anxiety. The Enthusiast, they struggle with gluttony. They want to consume and consume and consume more. The Challenger struggles with lust. And that's more of like, like power lust, like they're, they're constantly like on this need for power and, and strength. And then the peacemaker struggles with sloth. So like, dude, like, I know, I know we're kind of like, keep going back to our

own numbers, but like, obviously I can only speak for myself and like Envy in my life. I, I can see that working in my life every single day. And, and I don't know about you, but like Envy for me is like, someone can be a karate instructor, like a black belt karate instructor who like goes around the world. And like, maybe I've never cared about karate my whole entire life. But all of of a sudden as I hear that they're like this awesome karate instructor that teaches people and like gets to go to cool places I'm like oh I wish I was a karate instructor like I see the meaning in that and I want I can do that a little bit I will say when it comes to envy and jealousy, I feel like I'm really good at applying that in a positive way. Like, you know, I have a sales background. So like and people in sales, a lot of salespeople, especially when you see people or even in sports, right?

Sales and sports. sales people, especially when you see people or even in sports, right? Sales and sports, there's a lot of parallels in terms of when you see other people have success around you, a lot of people will immediately try to think of why that person was lucky. Why they, you know, why that they try to make excuses for the success that people have around them as opposed to, and I've been good at like not doing that but i still get i still want what they want you know i i get that i'm just then i'm just like well how can i do that you know um so i and i do feel like that's why i'm like kind of good at a lot of different things uh like i'm not i'm not like a master at anything, but I, you know, like why I can

randomly paint in roller skate and just like, there's these little things. I'm just like, I want to get good at that. So I, I, I, I appreciate that as the individual and envy. Yeah. And you see the meaning in those things. You're like, I want to do these things because I think they're cool and have meaning and want to experience that. Yeah. Well, this has all been very interesting. We probably could talk a lot more about it, but we're running out of time. But for those people who want to get more information, because I'm assuming they can, there's just all these little things that we kind of referenced, but didn't dive into. Where can people find you? And where are some just kind of resources on the old internet or wherever where they can maybe get

some more information and apply this type of thinking? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So there's like so many podcasts, so many books, like years and years and years of knowledge and really recycled information. Like all us Enneagram teachers are just like reciting old Enneagram teachers talking. But yeah, if you want like individualized, like one-on-one, like a deeper dive and look at like who you are and why you are the way you are, I do a one-on-one masterclass that you can, you can look into. You can go to my website, which is jillthehuman.com. I'm Jill the human because my brother, my brother had a dog named Jill for a little while and we lived together.

And so I started to be Jill the human and then there was Jill the dog to figure out who peed on the couch that day. Yeah. So, so you can go to go to Jill the human. And then I also just do like individual guidance to like dive deeper into those patterns and like into the experiences that you're having and how we can like create a roadmap for you within like your specific type and relationships and experiences. And then I have an Instagram. I'm JillTheHuman underscore as well on Instagram. But that's more personal. So that's me. And there's

some teachers, like new teachers that I love, Abby Robbins. They're the conscious Enneagram, I think, on Instagram. And then Annie diamond, she is Enneagram for wholeness. Um, they're like some of my favorite new teachers. Well, this has been a lot of fun, Joe. I appreciate you taking the time and I hope that the people listening found this to be as interesting and as fun as I did. Um, yeah, it's really useful. It's, uh, it's one thing to kind of talk about these things that we hear so much about, but to get a little bit more information, um, it's a lot of fun and again, you know, hopefully useful in our lives. I mean, there's, um, I'm definitely a big believer, especially in relationships and in our own lives to,

you know, like you said, I like how you mentioned the motivations, like understanding our motivations and the people around those motivations is a great way of, you know, like you said, I like how you mentioned the motivations, like understanding our motivations and the people around us motivations is a great way of, you know, understanding people's point of view, especially in the time that we're living right now. So very easy for us to see the world through our eyes and our lens and, and assume that everyone's motivations is identical to ours. And that the reason why they see things or do things or perceive things is based off those, again, our motivations and that knowing that that's very different. And it sounds obvious, but I think we sometimes forget that even in relationships is that you don't always want the same things or need the same things. And that's okay. But just figuring out how to do that and bridge that gap can be very helpful.

So I really appreciate you taking the time. Yeah, thank you for having me. No, thank you. Thanks for listening, guys. As always, we really appreciate it. Don't forget to send your questions at asknickatcastme.com for our Ask Nick episodes. If we don't have anything else,

then we will just say goodbye to you and see you on Monday.