The Viall Files - E164 Identifying Blindspots with Pastor Miles McPherson

Episode Date: August 12, 2020

Pastor Miles McPherson is a Faith Leader, Author, and former NFL player that helps us continue the conversation around social narratives, racial reconciliation, and current global perspectives. On today’s episode Nick has another honest and enlightening conversation learning how to have a “race consultation, rather than a race conversation.” Pastor Miles' book The Third Option was written to break through the Us vs. Them culture that exists today and tries to explain how to bridge the divide we keep finding ourselves in. Lesson learned today? Honor what we have in common, and look at your blindspots. It’s that simple. This educational and motivating conversation may just have you thinking a little different by the time it is over.  “Don’t be color blind. Be color brave.”  Make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  BOMBAS: bombas.com/viall for 20% off your first purchase STITCHFIX: stitchfix.com/viall to get 25% off when you keep everything in your Fix! COASTAL: coastal.com/viall Get free shipping, 30 day risk free returns, and 50% off until 10/31/2020 Episode Socials:  Viall Files @viallfiles Nick Viall @nickviall Pastor Miles McPherson @milesmcpherson Check out all things Pastor Miles at Milesmcpherson.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy happy wednesday happy wednesday i like the shovel uh thanks uh how you guys doing i i hope well um i've had a pretty decent week so far yeah how about you i've had a good week it's gonna get better it's to get better. It's going to get better. Because we have an excellent guest today. Pastor Miles joins us. And I got to say, I just really enjoyed the conversation.

He is a very wonderful man with a great message and a great story. I'm really enjoying having conversations with people who uh who are able to have conversations that relate to all sides of of people and kind of in a non-judgmental way um knowing that not everyone agrees on things and there's going to be confusion and disagreements and frustrations when we kind of get in the meat of some sensitive topics but always nice to have conversations with people that um change your mind can help not even change your mind but just open you to the new perspective and just broadening your horizons and and and with from people who aren't perfect but have a good clear message and and are inspiring and pastor miles uh was that person for me and i i really

appreciate him taking the time and um i guess that's all all we'll say before we we get into this conversation i really i hope you guys enjoyed as much as i enjoyed having this conversation with him also like i just i'm in you know this uh i'm interested i i've been trying to get him on for a while now and um and uh also i think this conversation with pastor miles is also broader than just some of the immediate issues i think you can apply it to a lot of things in our lives and going forward and um i hope uh i guess i just hope you enjoy it yeah don't forget to rate us five stars on itunes uh i uh we always appreciate that and uh probably you're done listening to podcasts after this week just a friendly reminder that

uh i'm kicking ass on nick v um talks trash tv with a bunch of my exes from my season brought that up i'm so surprised surprised. I don't like it when people miss out on fun. I mean, I just feel bad because a bunch of us having a ton of fun listening to this

and I just, I'm looking out for you, the listener. Yeah, you are looking out. I know how many people listen to this podcast.

I know many people have signed up. I'm flattered for the people who are supporting it, but there's a lot of you missing out. Yeah. So.

It's really, you're doing like a public service. Come in, have some fun. I also am really enjoying, I will say, I can email all the people who have signed up. Yeah,

I get your emails. A lot of people think it's not me. But it's you. I think it's like a bot. And I'm just like, I'll send, I email it to the group and I'll just like tell them things.

Yeah. And sometimes I email people one off. Yeah. So. It's nice. It makes it more intimate. Yeah. So. It's nice. It makes it more intimate. It's me. It's you.

So come on. I was like, did I get another email from Nick? Oh no. Come on in. The water's warm. It's fun. It's fun.

We really appreciate you guys listening and hope you enjoy this. Pastor Miles, thanks so much for joining. Hey, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Like I told you, I saw you in a bunch of interviews right when a lot of the protests were going on. And there's so much information out there and so many people speaking out.

And there always seems to be, you know, and I understood, understandably so, a lot of confusion, anger even. And then you see it both sides of the aisle, if you will, whatever, you know, if you want to call it that. And I started watching, you know, your interviews and following you on social media, and you seem to be a really calming presence. And what I really appreciated most about just listening to you talk and some of your even shorter interviews is you seem to really want to try to bring people together and recognizing that we have these problems, we have these issues, but try to do it in a place that people might be able to listen almost.

And because nowadays when people talk, it seems to be the opposite. They turn off their, their, their willingness to listen and, and, and get information. And just really enjoyed hearing you. And I reached out to you and get information. And just really enjoyed hearing you. And I reached out to you and asked you to come on. So I do appreciate you taking the time. It was my pleasure.

You know, ever since I was a little kid, I grew up in New York. And when Martin Luther King was killed, I was eight years old. And I remember feeling how unfair it was and thinking, what can we do? And I grew up in an interracial family. I had a white grandmother, half Chinese black grandmother, two black grandfathers. And my neighborhood was black. I went to school in a white neighborhood and got harassed in the white neighborhood because it wasn't white. Got harassed in the black neighborhood because it wasn't black enough.

But found unity in my family and playing football. But when I was eight, Martin Luther King was killed. And I remember thinking, you know, what can we do? And that's kind of been burning in me all my life. And, you know, three or four years ago, I started writing this book, The Third Option. And so here we are. I appreciate having the effect that you just said. Yeah, absolutely. And you do have a very unique story. Why don't you, for the people who aren't familiar with you, you're a former NFL football player and you even have a unique story, kind of how that all happened and how you kind of found your path to what you're doing now. Yeah. You know, I went to University of New Haven in

Connecticut, division three school, no scholarship. My high school, actually, we had, I think, three games in my senior year, and then they canceled the season for a couple days because we had no money. And someone donated some money, and we just had a dilapidated program. And I went to Division III school, played four years, was drafted to the Los Angeles Rams, first player drafted from the University of New Haven, first football player to play in the NFL from that school. And my brother actually was a Heisman runner-up.

He went the opposite route. He was All-American in high school, All-American in college, Heisman runner-up. Don McPherson was a quarterback at Syracuse. But I got drafted to the NFL, got cut from the Rams, and played four years with the Chargers. And my first two years I was doing cocaine, chasing the ladies, smoking. We just lived a while. And I gave my life to Christ after my second year.

I was doing cocaine all night. One day it was 5 o'clock in the morning. I had done cocaine all night. I just said, Lord, I'm going to give my life to you and stop doing cocaine in one day. Played two more years, then became a youth pastor. And then 16 years after that, started the church. So we're talking a long time because that was 1984, 36 years ago. I've been married 36 years. I got married that same year. Matter of fact, my wife and I, we got back the day I

stopped doing cocaine, April 12th, 1984. My girlfriend and I got back together and we got married later that year. And now we have three kids and my grandson's six years old. And I have a son who's a police officer. My dad was a cop in New York City for 30 years. So I have police in my family, you know, a lot of diversity in my family, football in my family. My other brother was a pro boxer, eighth ranked in the world. So we have a lot of sports in our family, but race was always an issue. You know, you know, if you're a person of color in this country, you know, you, you've grown up with it, all your grandparents and parents and stories. And my dad and I were driving through in Manhattan.

He was a cop and he didn't have his. He was a detective at the time, but he we got profiled and followed by other detectives while he was driving somewhere. And he noticed them and he pulled his car over and jumped out and jammed them up before they can jam us up. So, you know, this is a very sensitive, real issue for us and our family. And so it's an honor to be able to have some solution for some people. Yeah. And so, interestingly enough, obviously, you said you booked the third option. It came out a couple years ago. Are you working on it for a few years? so you know not that it um your race relations and and uh you know black

lives matter that's it's not like this all started a few months ago but it really has obviously come to a head and you know what was it like for you um who has been talking about this for the past couple of years? And then things really obviously escalated with the killing of George Floyd. And I mean, I guess like how's that impacted your life? Do you feel like people are receiving your message now more than ever. And I guess for those people who aren't familiar, what are some of the things that you're kind of out there kind of preaching and sharing and trying to give people some perspective on this matter? Yeah. You know, we live in this us versus them culture. You feel like you either have to be for or against Black Lives Matter, for or against the police, defund the police or not defund the police, Republican, Democrat. It's all this division, for or against the police, defund the police or not defund the police, Republican, Democrat.

It's all this division for or against the Confederate flag and the monuments. And whenever you pick a side, you are inevitably the enemy of the other side. Yeah. And so we have this divided culture. And that's what it was like back when I was writing the book, now more so than ever, unfortunately. But the third option, which is the title of the book, the third option is that we honor what we have in common instead of it being me against you. It's what do we share? And it doesn't mean my uniqueness is not valuable. My uniqueness is actually more valuable because, you know, you like to eat dinner.

So do I. But tell me about your meal. Let's share that in common. You like you want to get married. You want to have a family. I did a wedding for a brother from Miami, a black guy from Miami, and his wife was from Ethiopia. And it was 1,000 people. They played in the NFL, 1,000 people there. And the people from Ethiopia, they do weddings a little different. And let me tell you something. It was insane.

It was three days. And they do weddings. We do weddings. And instead of saying my wedding is better than your wedding or my culture is better than your culture, which is somewhat what we see in culture now is that my way is better than your way. What if we understand that we both do weddings and let's see how we can benefit? So the book talks about how can we honor or give value to the things that we have in common? We all want to get along. Well, how can we do that? We all want to have a family. How can we do that? And so I give tools in the book on how we can get along, how we can understand the blind spots that we have.

We all have gaps in the intent of what we try to do and the impact of what we try to do. The things that we don't even know, we don't even know. Like a lot of people will say, I don't see color. And usually they'll say that with the intent of building a bridge, but the impact is often insult because you're telling me that my brown color, which has history to it and pain and joy related to it, you don't see it. So you just ignored it. It's like dismissive almost. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I remember the first time someone told me that I thought they had an eye stigmatism and I was like, man, that's jacked up. You don't see color. They said, no, no, we, we see colors. We just don't see, I just don't see your color. And I say, so

am I white like you? I mean, so tell me how that works. And, and, and so, you know, we should not be color blind, but be color brave and say, look, I see how God made you. You're beautiful just like me. And I want to know about you. And one of the things I talk about is having race consultations instead of a race conversation. Race conversation. Every time you talk to somebody, you have a race conversation. Even two white guys are talking because we see color, we see hair, we hear accent. Chrissy says, you heard my accent and my New York accent. She's laughing. It's like, hey, I've been in California for 38 years. I'm holding on to my New York accent because I'm a New Yorker, right? And I'm going to stay in water

and car and tournament all my life. But you hear that, you see hair, you see. And so every time you have a conversation with anybody, you're having a race conversation and what you see and what you think about the type of person you're looking at is either going to be reinforced or it's going to be expanded. In other words, if you see a guy, I was at their golf course and it was a white guy, he was 25 years old, you know, young, good looking guy like you. I mean, just, you know,

and he was from Iowa, right? So I'm not saying you're good looking. I'm just saying, you're on the bachelor's, so I got to get your props, right? So I said, you know, he's from Iowa, 25 years old, kind of, you know, and I said, what's your name? Now, in my mind, I'm thinking Jimmy. I'm thinking Nick. I'm thinking John. His name was DeAndre. Right. And I didn't connect DeAndre to a white dude from Iowa because I had a perception. So when you talk to somebody, you're always having a race conversation, but you need to have a race consultation and allow people to self-disclose to you who they are, what they are, and learn about people instead of imposing our assumptions on them. Yeah. I mean, it makes a lot of sense, but we obviously struggle with that. And, you know, I don't know, it's, you know, everyone,

we all like to be heard. We all get frustrated. You talked about blind spots a few minutes ago. Could you elaborate that? And what do you mean by that for like someone who, who, who doesn't know what you mean? And, and then the tools you speak to, like some of the things that they could do to try to overcome that? Because I feel like we understand the divisiveness that we have. We see it out there and we get frustrated and it makes us want to almost yell out louder, but we almost burn ourselves out, right? And then we get discouraged and then shut down and shut it out. Exactly, exactly. And I'll tell you blind spots, give me a definition. Social narrative is a story that shapes how you see the world. So all of us have a family, friends, neighborhood that gives us information about us and them. And in this culture, there's us and them.

And so what you've heard all your life growing up is about us, whoever you are, and people like you, whether it be ethnically or socioeconomic or whoever's in your zip code. And then you also heard about them. And what you heard about was who was safe, who wasn't safe, who was smart, who wasn't smart, who works hard, who doesn't work hard, et cetera. Well, the problem is, is that what you've heard is very limited to your group and it creates a blind spot. And so you're only hearing a limited view

or one perspective. And it's ignorant to think that your perspective is the perspective globally especially globally and i mean if you really want to learn and and see and learn about how ignorant we are as americans not that americans are ignorant but how narrow-minded we can be is just go out of sight of america i mean i listen i personally like that you say the word ignorant i've i use word ignorant pretty often, even with myself at times. I think we associate the word ignorant a little too strongly with words like racist and racism. But you're right. There's a lot of things I think now that I didn't think in the past. And like you said, blind spots, I didn't call it that, but you, you, you just don't know you. And then you, you go about thinking the world's a certain way, you know, because of your surroundings and there is some ignorance there. And I think

sometimes I wish we would just be more willing and less defensive about that recognition of the word ignorant, because you're right. We, that's, we get so defensive about the possibility that we have a narrowed, narrowed point of view on a lot of things. Yeah. And it's having a, and so because you have this perspectives, there's things you don't even know, you don't even know. That's the blind spot. You're blind to it. Now it doesn't make you bad. It doesn't make you a racist. It doesn't make you evil. It just makes you ignorant. And I don't say, again, I want to be careful because there is a negative term to ignorant. You have a blind spot. And it's so important to understand that that blind spot will create a bias. And by the way, and that's

another word people think, I'm not biased. You can't not be biased unless you have everybody's perspective. Now, being intentionally against somebody is not necessarily having a bias. Having a bias is this is what I've learned. I have a bias towards football. That's what I grew up on. Baseball is not bad. I just prefer football. Now, do I think it's the best sport in the world? Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of reasons I could back that up with evidence. But that's just my bias.

But it doesn't mean I hate football. I think I'm baseball, baseball players. We all have bias. You know what is amazing? Being able to see things. That, but also things that cost $9 or at least start at nine dollars because that's at this let's let's be honest in this day and age that's basically free that is basically free that's a cup of coffee well it's a really that's like an entire meal actually if you like

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have. One of the ways you can find out is ask. And I always tell guys this and girls get this right away. And watch Chrissy laugh when I say this. She's already laughing. I haven't said it yet. Of all the guys watching this, we'll go up to the ladies in your life and ask them if they think you're creepy. All ladies know creepy dudes. Now, dudes a lot of times don't know creepy dudes because we're all creepy, right? And we just think it's normal. But if you ask a woman to say, tell me the creepy dudes in your life, they'll just go, him, him, him. They'll just tell you. But we don't even see it. And so a blind spot racially is ask your friends who are, whether they look like you or not, but especially the ones who don't look like you, is there anything I say that's racially offensive? You can be racially

offensive and not necessarily be a racist. Just because you offend somebody racially offensive. You can be racially offensive and not necessarily be a racist. Just because you offend somebody racially doesn't necessarily make you a racist. Now, if they tell you it was offensive and you keep doing it, well, then that's a different story. But people get too defensive. And I'll say this about white people, because white people aren't accustomed to the race conversation, it's less comfortable for them. Black people, people of color, we've talked about race all the time because we've always been subjected by it. But so we have a conversation we talk about more freely and we want to get to solutions. And I'll tell you one of the frustrations to people of color is it's hard to get to.

It's hard to get white people to talk about it without being very defensive. 100%, yeah. So I created this e-course based on the third option called the Third Option Similarity e-course, which is designed to get people in groups and actually have discussions about blind spots, have discussions about labels that we use on people, have discussions about having conversations and, and brothers keeper. And so people can get together and actually understand how to do this. And they can find that the e-course at model and fearsome.com and, and, but you can get in a group, you can do it by yourself. It's better in a group. And then you can have discussions and it has role plays in it where you actually can start to act this stuff out and see the impact of the things that we're learning.

Yeah, I mean, it's really great that you're doing that. And it's something I just hope to keep the conversation going around because you're right, it's also just easy for us to kind of to check out. You know, like I talked to, I told you, I grew up in Wisconsin, which is a pretty segregated state in terms of even in the city of Milwaukee, it's a segregated city. And it's easy to avoid people who are different than you. You don't even have to try to avoid. You have to go out of your way to be inclusive. And sometimes we just have to try to seek that out because um the world is you know with the internet it's getting harder and harder in a good way to avoid not having these conversations and it's nice to be able to just try to talk and be inclusive that way as opposed to letting it

as we've seen now like things boil up and and and come to a head where you understand the anger and you understand the frustration that people have. But how do we get to a place where we're having these conversations and trying to get some real progress and real solutions? Yeah, one of the things you asked me about blind spots. Yeah. One of the things you asked me about blind spots. One of the blind spots is I ask often to people who's right-handed and most people are right-handed and the world was made. right-handed people by right-handed people. The desk at school was on the right side. And you know, as lefties, we have to be out here in space trying to write where you're right-handed. You could put your elbow and write and talk to the girl next to you at the same time because your hand was braced. If you're right-handed, you can get a golf club at any golf shop.

You get a golf, a nightmare. Nightmare. We can't do that. But if you're right-handed, you don't even know that you just think everything is made for, you know, everything comes to you easier because you're right-handed. Now that's called right privilege, right? Right. Right-handed people don't even know the advantage that they have because that was just how it's always been. And privilege is not necessarily that you had more money. It's just when everything's equal, you have an advantage. And one of the things you just said was when you have to go out of your way to find diversity. That's because you're white.

People of color are surrounded by diversity every single day. We can't hardly get away from it. And I'll say it's bad, but it's a privilege to be able to choose whether you want to be around people who are different than you. And that is a privilege. And I say privilege, advantage. It's a choice you have. It's a choice I don't have. Now, I'm fine with it. I've been around diversity all my life. However, when you have a choice to have to deal with these things, it must be nice that you don't have to deal with racism. That's their problem. Now, does that make you bad? No, but it is a different experience when you're living in a right-handed world and you're right-handed and don't even understand the difficulties of being left-handed. And those privileges or advantages are systemic in all parts of our culture. But if you're right-handed, I was talking to a lady. I was on a vacation last year, and she's a white lady. She had two kids from Africa she adopted.

And I said to her, how's that working out? You know, we're at the pool in Hawaii. I said, how's that working out? She's like, her eyes has got this big. She said, you know, when I, and I write about this very similar story in this book about this very exact same thing. She said, when I went to adopt my kids, I thought, you know, I'm going to give them the life that my kids have, blah, blah, blah. I never realized the racism in my family, in my neighborhood.

And the reason is because she and her family were right-handed like her neighborhood. And so she thought that's how everybody is. And so a lot of people think if I'm not experiencing it, it doesn't exist. And in my book, I was telling about the same story where this lady, this black couple went up to this white couple and said, listen, are you ready for what's going to happen when you adopt these kids? And they said, it's going to be fine they didn't understand because they lived in it and they they were around people like them the whole time now when they brought their black kids into their family they had a they had a whole different set of rules on how they parent these

kids because of how their family and neighborhood treated them and so a lot of people think well if i'm not experiencing it, it doesn't exist. That's a blind spot. Chrissy, I got to tell you, I really think you're looking hot today. Why, thank you, Nicholas. Mostly because of your outfit. I mean, you look hot every day, but there is... I walked in and I thought, wow, what is Chrissy wearing?

She looks... Because I got my Stitch Fix style box. Well, Stitch Fix dressedrissy today yeah and the best part i'm assuming you had to put no work in it because you got your stitch fix i got the box and they're just basically said put this on we styled it for you here i even got a purse that goes with it yeah so i could walk in here just being like a fashionista yeah then you have to try wouldn't you dear listeners love if every clothes store you shopped at already understood your love hates in the total no-go

zones that you have well there is a company focus on making that happen stitch fix people it is a personalized styling company that brings you the world of fashion and style it's a completely different and fun way to find clothes that you will love. That's all about you. Actually, it's really fun. To get started, go to stitchfix.com slash V-I-A-L-L to set up your profile and they'll deliver great looks personalized just for you in clothes, styles, and in your budget. Get started at stitchfix.com slash V-I-A-L-L and you'll get 25% off when you get everything in your fix. That's stitchfix.com slash V-I-A-L-L for 25% off when you keep everything in your fix. Stitchfix.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Yeah, it's one of those things that you, yeah, you're right.

It's easy to ignore or have the blind spot. I was traveling not too long ago and I don't know if I would have picked up on it. And I don't know for sure, but I was, I was boarding a plane and I'm in group nine. I'm in the last group. Right. And here I am, I'm about to get on. And it's like, they were in group six and I was like, you know what? Screw it. I'm just, I'm just going to get on the plane. And I don't, if they want to stop me, they'll just tell me no. And i get in line to board the plane and the woman in front of me black woman she had a sling on her arm broken arm like so she already

just looks like she needs to get on the plane and the woman in front of me the the flight attendant person was um she's she goes oh you're in group nine, to the woman in front of me. And I'm like, oh, shoot, she's calling us out. And, you know, this girl has a broken arm. And then she's like, well, you can't go. And I just, I don't say anything. And I just, I'm not even thinking. I'm just kind of like, let's get on a plane. I give her, I'm in group nine too. I give her my ticket, doesn't say a word to me, lets me on the plane. And I turn around and I look at the woman and, and I look at the girl with the broken R and then the, the flight, the, the airline person looks at her and goes, Oh, well,

did you want to go on? Cause you have a broken arm. Cause I just kind of like stopped and look at her like, and I honestly, I don't think I would have thought anything of it four months ago. I would have just kind of been in my own world. Just kind of thought I got lucky. And I don't know. I don't know this woman's intentions, but it's just, you become more in tune to like, well, how the hell did I get on and she didn't? And I was right behind her. We're both in group nine. You know, it was wild. Well, we have seen that every day of our lives yeah all our lives exactly

yeah and it's just these little things that we conveniently don't dismiss me when i say we the white guy who's just like yeah cool i got on and by the way that i don't know the flight attendant yeah i can't speak to a heart. But when people talk about systemic racism, that's a symptom of that, where it's, this is just what we do. And, you know, imagine all the different scenarios where two people come up with this, when all things are equal. And by the way, if you think equal, she had a broken arm. So you would think she would get a little more sympathy.

She would, yeah. All things are equal. It's like, no, you get it and she doesn't. Well, why? And it was a woman. I mean, you think, you know, you, you were the woman all for a guy, but that that's a perfect example of, uh, the, the subtle things that you might, like you said, four months ago, you wouldn't have thought about it. And by the way, you wouldn't have to. And that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the privilege. So it's a good thing that you stood up for him. Yeah, it's been an interesting time. And I guess to that point, I am thankful that even my friends who are people of color who have, like I said, shared with me their more and more perspective.

And even from this podcast. And you realize just how much you don't. I still don't know. And just having that kind of awareness to be in tuned. It's that, that was a kind of a fascinating moment for me, kind of talk about the systemicness of it all, because it's such a little, a little subtle thing. And again, I don't know what was in her heart or what her intentions were, but it's, it was this kind of a wild experience that really made me think throughout the entire flight of like jesus like that what what an interesting thing and not in a good way you mentioned obviously you have a father

who's a was a police officer is your father still serve as a police officer oh no he passed away he passed away i'm sorry about that um And your son, who is a police officer. I have a brother who's a police officer. Doing what you're doing and sharing your message, you must get a lot of people asking you questions about this. All the questions about defund the police, Blue Lives Matter, and some of these things that you hear out there. matter and some of these things that you hear out there. And it's crazy even on my social media when my audience, even them, you feel like you're on two people fighting and not listening. What are your thoughts on kind of the things that are going on within the police force? I know I've had some tough conversations with my brother who just feels a lot of pressure and a lot of feel like people are misjudging him when he's at work.

Have you had conversations with your son? And what are some things we can do, again, as a community to try to understand, you know, each other's perspectives to get to a point where we can have some, you know, positive interactions? Well, when people say defund the police, I don't know if everybody, if there's any consensus on what even what that means. Yeah. And so I would say this, my dad was a cop 30 years, part of what he did. And I think the longest stretch of his career, he, he investigated police. Every police department has internal affairs. Police are people. And just like actors and athletes and parents, there's some good ones and some bad ones, and they have a tough job. So it's difficult and risky when you start categorizing a stereotype in a whole group of

people. Now, the system, like the airline stewardess, the system and culture is one thing. And sometimes the system lends itself to unfair behavior towards certain people. Do we need better police? And do we all want great police? 100%. I think everybody you would poll if they said, would you like to have great police? Everybody would say yes. That's what we have in common. So what can we do to help them be better police so we can all be safe? Because when I call 911, I don't want to get a voicemail. I want the police to come and I want someone to come with a gun, right? And I want someone to come who's trained, who's going to protect me. I don't want someone to be on the phone saying, I'm praying for you, you know what I'm saying?

And I believe in God, right? I want the cops to come with the pole pole in my house. And so, but we want good police. So, and even my relationship here in San Diego, I mean, I am very close to our police department, our sheriff, our police chief, D.A. I'm doing training for them, speak to them all the time. So they're people. And so we have to see how can we support them and how can we help people get along? My son and I do talk about I pray for him all the time, going ride-alongs with him. And so we just got to be able to support them and not be so, we'll defund the police. What does that mean? And now, if it means there are some jobs the police shouldn't do or we don't want them doing, well, that's different. But we definitely want the

police that are going to walk the street, drive our neighborhoods to be trained, compassionate, and not do what that lady did with you at the airport, give bias and discriminatory treatment. Yeah, I totally agree. What are some things you would like to see or what are the things that you're doing and then working with the police that you think could be helpful? You know, actually, my training that I was telling you about, the e-course and similarity training, is I just did a session for the DA's office, part of which is going to be used for de-escalation training for the police. And it's really helping them think about what to think about when they encounter people. Now, they asked me a couple of questions. I said, look, I'm not a police officer, so I don't want to claim to tell you how to do

your job. But one of the things I talk about in the book is, you know, the greatest commandment is to love God with your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. If I call you something less than neighbor, if I dehumanize you and call you a thug or white this or black this or whatever, immigrant, however I want to call you, then I don't have to love you because you're not on my level. Matter of fact, racism by definition, there's many definitions, but one definition is when I see you as less than human or less than me because of your color, your accent, your tribe you're in, if you're in Africa or the caste system. Racism is not unique to America.

But for some reason, I say you are less than. And as a police officer, one of the ways that can happen is that you see bad people all the time. All you do is get crap day in and day out. When I go on ride-alongs with my son, kids getting out of school, just giving him the finger. They don't know him. They just see him a cop. And so when you deal with that all day, you get jaded. And you start to label people with negative labels.

And so I was talking about putting an honorable label on everybody you see, no matter how they treat you, no matter what they say, no matter what they've just done. They're a human being made in the image of God, no matter who they are, what they believe, and how much they hate you. And if you could start there, and trust me, this is a challenge. I mean, I get it. But if it starts there and you see people through a lens of honor and you, and you give them an honoring label, if I look at you and call you, you know, a white trash, if that's my label on you, how am I going to treat you? Everything I think about white trash, I'm going to put on you. If I call you ugly, everything I think about ugly, I'm going to put on you. I can't even treat you above that label. But if I say, Hey, that's my

brother, different story. That's why football and sports in general, but football is family. That's a quote we say and we believe that. And football players, we have a special bond. And if I meet a kid who's eight years old and he says he plays football, you guys don't mess with my man because we're in his family right away. I talk to football teams with little girls on them. It's like, oh, we family, right? So as soon as you put an honoring label on someone, everything that's honorable about that label you put on them. Now, when you treat them, it's going to be completely different. And so that's one of the things I was talking to them about.

It's also in my book and in my training, the e-course that I was talking about. There's a whole session on labels. And if you give people, if you just, as a matter of fact, if you listen to the media, the media will give you labels. And if you're not smart enough, you will take labels. As soon as the media called those people thugs or those people never Trumpers or whatever, all these labels that get placed on individuals, if you buy that hook, line, and sinker, you will start to categorize people and limit how well you can love them. And therefore, the division is already set.

Yeah, that's actually fascinating that you say that because we associate with labels in a very negative way. And rightfully so, the way you're saying, what we see in the media. But to hear you talk about, it's how we're using the labels, it's not so much labels in general, that taking the time to go out of our way to associate positive labels to people. And if we're ever going to generalize and paint broad brushes, we often do that in a critical way with people. We should maybe start doing it in a more positive and open way. And then, yeah, I always kind of love things that sound so simple, yet we never think about or never acknowledge. It's so profound.

Oh, okay. Wow. Could have been doing that my whole life. If I call you brother, then I'm going to treat you better than if I call you idiot, right? Yeah. And so I'm going to treat you as my brother. And so we can use labels to our advantage. Yeah, that's great. I mean, it's definitely a great lesson, even in your head, like as we go out and interact with people um and we always thought you know talk about humanizing people and and even with

our thoughts and getting in an elevator with a stranger and and taking the time to have a positive thought towards someone can probably go a long way even for ourselves and kind of the energy we're we're feeling um is uh is a kind of a fascinating thought i don't know um you know before i before i let you go um are any other kind of things that uh you know you're seeing out there um that uh you just kind of want to remind people as we you know try, try to, you know, like anything else, it was a crazy time. Everyone's talking about it, things have died down a little bit with the conversations that people are having, like, how can we continue to keep having conversations for positive change without feeling like we're exhausting each other or yelling at each other and just creating unnecessary noise? I think that it's important that we

understand the goal. And the goal is to live in loving relationships. I mean, that's the goal. It's not to not be racist. It's to be loving. It's not even to be tolerant. It's to be loving. And so the big question is, how well do you love people that don't agree with you? Because if you could only love people that agree with you, then what is that? That's not love. to practice being patient, forgiving, loving, graceful with people who don't agree with us. And instead of trying to win an argument, try to win a friend. Because if you say, look, I think kneeling on Sunday, if you don't kneel, you're a racist. Well, that's your opinion. There's no book that says that that's true. I could stand up and still be very about equality and do a lot in my community. Matter of fact, I could stand at the national anthem and do more than you when you're kneeling. So who's to say?

Now, do I think the guys kneeling are wrong? No. Do I think the guys standing are wrong? It's really what's in your heart. But I don't need to win that argument with you. I just need to understand maybe what you're thinking. If I listen, learn, and love, I listen to you, learn about you, and love you, and then say, cool.

You know, and instead of having to feel like I have to prove my point and convince you you're wrong, that's where we get in problems. But if we just want to learn from people and listen to people and love them and not feel like we have to win an argument, I think we're going to win more friends and be able to live in disagreement.

Listen, I've been married 38, 36 years. My wife and I don't agree on everything, but we sleep in the same bed every night. I mean, we love each other. So why is disagreement so bad? Why do we have to cancel people out? They say something that we don't like. Listen, people say bad things. We just need to correct them.

You know, we need to love them through it, encourage them through it. I thank God that, you know, God forgave me of all the junk I did and do and didn't throw me to the curve because we would all be done if God wasn't graceful to us. So we need to send that, express that same grace to everybody else. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How do you go, like when you say correct them, I feel like a lot of people, that's what they think they're doing sometimes. I know I've made that mistake too.

I hear someone say something I disagree with and I wanna quote unquote correct them or share with them, but yet then I'll just come across as condescending or critical or biased or things like that. Do you have any tools in terms of communicating with even your parishioners or just people or cops or people on the street that you're interacting with that would be a more effective tool to communicate them while trying to correct them, but not make them feel defensive? You know what I'm saying? Like that's where I struggle, right? Like I know I struggle. I feel like a lot of people do too.

Well, let me help you with the struggle. Don't try to correct them. Okay. I mean, I'm not trying to be sarcastic. No. Yeah.

It's because what we're trying to do is correct people based on what we think is right. Well, you may be wrong. You know, if I was, if I was laying in the street, I,

I've had this discussion with people who talk about kneeling at the national anthem. And they say, well, it's wrong. You should respect the flag. I say, okay, I'm not saying that's wrong, but where did you get that? And they say, well, that's what my family taught me. That's what your family taught you. And they'll say, well, my father fought in the war. I said, well, my father fought in the war too.

When my father was in the war, he had to sleep in the second-hand barracks because he was black. And then when he came back to America, he wasn't a hero like he was then. So they had a different experience. So my experience is different than your experience. And if I was laying in the street and you were driving down the street, I would hope that instead of telling me to get up, that you would ask me why. Now, am I arguing for or against kneeling? Here's what I'm arguing for. Let's talk so we can understand each other why we do what we do. And so the tool is listen to the other person. Learn about what they're even saying. Because someone says something you don't like, you've already made up your mind, they're wrong. Well, you don't even know why they're saying that.

You have an assumption, but they may be saying, they may be arguing and have a reason that you never heard. And so number two, listen, learn, because learning is a posture of humility. And it's also an admission, I don't know everything. And then level. They disagree with you saying, you know what? Hey, I think something different, but let's be, let's go get some pizza. I mean, it doesn't make you evil because you disagree with me because I'm not all knowing. And so I want to learn more from you. So I think, I think we don't, we don't give people enough credit because we think people are, well, there's a lot of reasons why we think we're right, they're wrong. While we're better, they're worse. We're superior, they're inferior. There's a lot of reasons why we can think that they're just wrong and that's it.

And some of it's pride about who, why I'm better than you. And so I think it's more important to learn about us and what we know, what we don't know, how, why we're seeing things the way we do versus saying, I'm going to prove that person wrong. But that that comes from a place of pride. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know you're a busy guy and you're doing great things out there. Can you just remind people out there where they can find you or where they can get your book and join your seminars. Well, you can get this at Amazon, obviously, but also the e-course on this book you can get

at milesoffearson.com. It's called the Third Option Training. Go to milesoffearson.com and order it. You can get it for an individual, for a group, and then get the third option. order it. You can get it for an individual, for a group, and then get the third option. But I would say get this book and do it. I mean, the training e-course is going to be great, especially if you have a group of people, best if it's a group of people who are diverse, and have a conversation. It's based on principles, not necessarily race, but the principles will absolutely get to the heart of all the stuff we're talking about. But the reason I use principles is to make it safe for people to feel that they can participate in all the different exercises that have to do with bias

without it being racial, but it will actually get to the race issue. That's great. Well, thanks for doing all the things that you're doing. Thank you for taking the time. And I really appreciate it. God bless you. All right. And people can follow me at Mylon Pearson, obviously. Awesome.

Well, everyone, I do appreciate you taking the time to tune in as always. Thank you for listening. Hopefully you found this as enjoyable as I did don't forget to send your questions at asknickcastme.com for our Ask Nick episodes give us a five star review on iTunes if you have the time and until next time

have a great week