The Viall Files - E194 The Bachelorette Recap With Sharleen Joynt

Episode Date: November 6, 2020

On todays recap of The Bachelorette, fellow cast member of Clare’s from Juan Pablo’s season and friend of the show Sharleen Joynt joins us. Nick and Sharleen do not shy away from their analytical brains and take the time to really break down the moments of this Bachelor franchise first. The proposal, the mens reaction to Clare breaking up with them, the mens reaction to Tayshia, and did Neil Lane know about that proposal before Dale? Get ready to dive in as these two dissect this weeks whirlwind of events.  “Getting into the Dale and Clare of it all….” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Bright Cellars: http://www.brightcellars.com/viall for 50% off your first 6 bottle orders. Mejuri: http://www.mejuri.com/viall for 10% off your order. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @sharleenjoynt See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bright Cellars is the wine subscription service that helps you find wines you love while making wine more accessible to everyone. By taking their 30-second quiz, Bright Cellars will pair you with six unique and personalized wines that are delivered right to your doorstep. For VibeFile listeners only, we are giving 50% off your first six-month bottles from Bright Cellars by going to brightcellars.com slash V-I-A-L-L. That's brightcellars, C-E-L-L-A-R-S dot com slash V-I l l that's bright cellars c e l l a r s dot com slash v i a l l you can take their seven question quiz to get your wine matches and receive 50 off your first six bottle order happy thursday night friday what the fuck ah what is going on it's weak thrown off well we have a fun little bachelor recap for you my dear friend charlene joint is my guest today to help break down this episode uh charlene is a another very analytical person like myself with obviously experience in Bachelor Nation. Was on Claire's season with Juan Pablo season with Claire.

So she got to know Claire and I thought she'd be the perfect person to help break down this episode, which is quite frankly, a very unique one and we'll never see before. So I love Charlene. We like to get in the weeds. We like to dissect every little thing.

But the fun part, I will say, is like listening to this is, this is the stuff when Charlene and I do talk about The Bachelor, which we do sometimes because we can relate. This is how our conversations go. This is how you guys break it down? Yeah, because we like,

we have our different points of view and nothing in that world is black or white yeah we are also just guessing we're giving your best guesses to situations that we're familiar with but things can change that you can like draw on your own experience to try and figure it out it's it's fun to i think what what's fun with charlene is we don't know if we get it right but we probably have covered one of the scenarios that is possible got it i would definitely agree with that statement um and uh so we lay it all out there so i hope you guys enjoy it um charlene is always fun to talk to you we have some new merch i mean look at that shirt and chill a bunch of our sayings and a bunch of new t-shirts sweatshirts cute stuff some breakup books

and beanies tote bags check it all out get yourself some uh merch for yourself or some friends some christmas gifts vilefiles.com that's it charlene join everybody what's going on charlene hi nick how are you so good thank you for for taking this bachelor journey with us i thought it'd make sense to have one of my closest friends uh who also has her own experience on the franchise who knows claire who was on the show with claire uh to help break this uh episode down as it's an episode that, well, as Harrison said, has never and may never ever happen again.

And I think, uh, I thought it was pretty interesting, the episode itself. And, uh, Charlene has been kind enough to, to join us to,

to break it down. Um, let's do it. What were your, what were your overall thoughts on the episode uh my overriding thought was that i really wished i didn't know any spoilers because i feel like it would have been such an exciting episode had i not known more or less what happened and and you're just talking about just the fact that cla Claire was eventually going to leave the show.

Yeah. It's not that we didn't all see it coming in some way, but it was so exactly what was more or less spoiled by every outlet. And so there weren't a ton of surprises. The one thing I didn't see coming was the push for the proposal. I thought that was the most interesting thing about it. I mean, we can dive into that now. Do you want to go through chronologically? Let's go through chronologically.

So the show opens up with Chris coming in and talking to Claire. It seems like a really authentic conversation between the two. As Rob Mills mentioned last week week and i think that's what he was referring to claire literally swore on her her uh dead father's life that dale and and her stopped who weren't talking and i'm going to choose to believe that we all know that claire is a very earnest person and she values certain things and her life is sacred and i think her father is one of them and for her to without hesitation to say that it's that's all i needed to believe her absolutely i honestly didn't even think she needed

to swear on anything she's i don't think claire is really capable of lying to be honest yeah and that is one of the things that makes her fun to watch fun to watch uh and what's what gets her in trouble but i think it's also something that people and like you point out we we don't appreciate that as much as we should we always especially in bachelor world we were so quick to be like oh they're so nice and so charming and they're so well spoken i'm like well they're also so full of shit you know especially at the time yeah in that world um and i also want to point out even if like i said before if she was talking to dale i don't care you know it's like let's assume she was that's not a crime it's like she doesn't deserve to be crucified there's no penalty she needs to

pay who gives a shit we we you know what was it blake the blake the one guy who did cheat moines yeah yeah we'll get into him later um but yeah like it's who really cares um i mean i agree i think that people just sort of want that explanation but i agree i don't think it really makes a difference in the grand scheme of things yeah if the outcome is what it is yeah so like i don't really give a shit if she talked to claire but like chris comes in he asked her to the swear on it and i gotta say i'm really glad that this aired the way it did claire had a tough week last week we all know this uh it's gotten to the point where it's i've said this not only on this show but other podcasts batronation needs to chill

out uh we need to stop uh sending such vitriol and hatreds towards anyone on the show or to anybody uh but this was a really i think good moment for claire uh she looked calm sincere she just looked in love with dale and they they did a good job playing a nice little soundtrack it's amazing how much the music really helps or hurts someone uh but yeah you sort of well up for them it was uh it was a nice moment for claire did you feel the same way did you feel like i'm curious how i i mean we're recording this before the episode drops but i'm curious if if twitter or the bachelor nation will feel the same way in terms of being like you know what fuck it i'm happy for i'm happy for dale so yeah i'm curious how how bachelor nation responds

because i i i hope that uh having watched it back that everyone feels it's like let's just be happy for claire she's finding yeah and i i honestly think they will hop fully on board with this if there's one thing i know about bachelor nation it's that you know one episode they might loathe a person and then the next episode they're like oh but they're not so bad i actually i love them after all yeah you know that we we do tend to swing like a pendulum depending on you know like the soundtrack and whatever we're shown we really do so claire i think she'll come out on top for sure based on this episode so claire chris offers her an opportunity she's just like she she yeah she's just like listen i just want to spend time with the guy it's who i want to be with

i hope that's not a crime chris is like you know what cool let's do it uh you know chris chris really making some extra money this episode yeah i know i gotta say he's really earning that paycheck he's really doing the extra time constantly keeping people on the edge uh they pulled dale out yeah that's good stuff um and so yeah this is where blake i mean i almost i feel bad for blake but at the same time can't stand him in this episode god yes i agree with you 100 like i feel bad from like knowing how that world works and i'm sure they're just using every soundbite but he is this guy where it's just like well first of all you called it never trust blake's intuition hey never trust blake's gut don't ask don't go to blake for advice because this guy has has a real real it does really seem like he's either not seen the

show a lot before or he just sort of let it get to him, or both. I mean. Because some of those sound bites, and you could see it coming out of his mouth from beginning to end. Like, it wasn't like it was Frankenbitten or anything. I agree. He was a little, like, righteous and was speaking with a little too much authority. Yeah. Given the fact that he didn't really know anything.

As someone who's been someone who got early attention from andy and caitlin right i've been very different situation but i've been on dale's side before right and the blake reminded me so much of i don't know if you remember on on caitlin season joshua who had the the gut intuition about me yeah he's just like i don't know just my guy intuition he his guy intuition he said and it is all jealousy it's just like these guys i know there's a lot of good guys here but dale isn't one of them based on what like what what well i so do you so is that do you think it is just jealousy yes i mean i i don't know dale no. I mean, I don't know Dale. No one knows Dale.

These guys don't know Dale. No one knows Dale. That thing we can agree on for sure. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know if Dale is a great guy or a bad guy as a human being in this world, right? But I know that these guys don't know either. You know what I'm saying? What they know is that he's gotten all of Claire's attention. He probably talks a little bit too much and gives himself gets himself

in trouble whether it's nervousness or like overconfidence and it becomes it comes across is unattractive to the other guys I get all that none of none of it says who he is as a person and certainly his compatibility for Claire Blake is just sitting here being like, there's so many good guys here that could be right for Claire. I just know it's not Dale. It's so insane that how he has no problem speaking for, for Dale, you know, you know,

Blake also reminds me of what I really had a problem with the way he talks about, like when, when he comes in and they're making the switch and he's just like, I, he, when he comes in and they're making the switch and he's just like, he makes this comment about how he even like looked up, you know, I think. Oh yeah, Alzheimer's.

Alzheimer's. Oh, and he bought like the books and did like the research and all that. That fucking drove me nuts. It reminded me of all the guys out there who think. There's a little pat on the back there. Not only that, but it's like a step further. Like your obsession or desire there who think pat on the back there not only that but it's like a step further like your

obsession or desire or your willingness to do things for someone does not mean they owe you anything in return like the way blake said it means that it came comes at a price i did this for claire and claire's mom and she doesn't like me back you know he's like well i did this for her i don't know she should like me so she should like like, well, I did this for her. I don't know. So she should like me. So she should like me. And he didn't do that. Yeah.

And Blake and Dale didn't do that. He didn't do that for her. Yeah. I had a real problem with that. As if there was this real undertone of Blake felt owed. And I felt really uncomfortable. I mean, I don't think it'll come as any surprise to you that i have a bit of a softer take on it but i mean i agree i don't love the uh insinuation that because he had done his research that she

owed him anything i i definitely felt the frustration was more that they all felt a little gypped you know and especially blake because he was the only other yeah you know front runner on the map i mean, Jason. A little bit. Yeah, Jason. Jason. Although I never really bought that one. And Kenny, the tattoo chest guy, he was super angry. Yeah, well, Kenny, who asked Claire to apologize.

It's like, again, these guys, you came on for a team. We didn't see that come out of his mouth, but yeah. Yeah, I know. I agree. It was a little much. It was kind of like, just let her be. And ultimately, she's going to end up with one person no matter what. I get it.

I think that their frustration was just sort of built up around everything. And there was so much just like heightened anxiety and just wondering what's next. And they kind of let it out on her but i agree i don't love how blake spoke so authoritatively like she doesn't you know she doesn't know him she's gonna get her heart broken this isn't gonna work out it's like oh okay no no yeah she she doesn't know any of that no or he doesn't know any of that yeah he doesn't know any of that and i gotta say i thought claire when when boy band dude uh demanded an apology um so you're saying like we didn't hear him we didn't see his lips moving when he uh i mean i watched the scene so many times i just found it so weird that we couldn't see him say these things, but we saw all the guys looking at him.

I have to dissect that a bit more. It doesn't, the audio sounds fine. It sounds like he said it in that moment. Well, he certainly looked like he did. So I'm not trying to. Yeah. Yeah. There was enough evidence to support the fact

that he probably said it. Also Claire's reaction to it too, right? Definitely. Her reaction added up. And I i gotta say i just found it really weird that we didn't see it i was just like oh maybe there just wasn't a camera on him at that moment i thought she handled that surprisingly i thought you know i love to dissect this i i thought claire handled it great right i was not i thought i thought she'd go off i thought she's gonna lose it yeah right and i thought she she listened she were you know she could tell she didn't like what he had to say

but you know but the previews made it seem like she was gonna lose her shit yeah and she didn't she was like i'm sorry i you're right i'll apologize for this i'll apologize for that but i'm not gonna apologize for having feelings for a guy nor should she no and i i mean i thought she handled it reasonably well, yeah. I thought she did really well. Well, listen, I put a new wine rack in my house

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by jewelry salespeople and then buy things you don't love. Go on there, do it yourself and buy things you are passionate about. Don't spend a ton of money, but get great jewelry. So getting into the Dale and Claire of it all, I did find this really, I was troubled by it. I felt I was uncomfortable with it. I was even surprised by it. I was surprised.

I mean, like i'm not surprised because it's the show and it's the bachelor and they're constantly um throwing engagement at us but i what i was surprised by there didn't even seem like we talk about editing things like there didn't even seem to be an attempt on the part of the show to make it seem like they weren't pressuring dale and cla Claire to get engaged. Yeah. Oh, I know. They were just leaning in.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it clearly came from Chris. He brought it up to, he was like, well, I guess the next step is proposal, right? And then he brought it up to Dale. I was like, so I guess you're going to propose. You know what I'm saying? Like, you would think those would be conversations they're gonna have offline and like and i believe that claire and dale like i don't think they had to force anyone

to do it there was definitely a part where chris harrison said it to dale and you could almost see his thought process like oh shit huh i forgot there was like a sense it was like yeah i want to so wait no i have to do like and keep in mind they've they've been hanging out for maybe two weeks they're so they're expecting these two to get engaged and i was uncomfortable trust me i yeah i agree i find it interesting that they couldn't even find a way to edit it to make it seem like it was anyone else's idea that's what i'm saying they like they like no yeah i guess this was the best thing that they could give us and it was clear whose idea it was i guess i guess i give them fully credit for just owning

that they definitely forced those two into engagement and then i'm not saying that claire or dale didn't want to get engaged or they put a gun to their head but i and i don't know if we'll ever get an answer but would those two have got engaged there in that moment if it weren't for like the show being like if hey if you want to do this this is like you got to really do it it seems unlikely the setup moment that sorry i was just gonna say the setup for that though was that conversation about their parents right so the setup was that their parents both got engaged super quick, super fast within like days. So that was kind of the setup. Which is great.

I see that. That's conversations that happened before. I think I mentioned that on Andy's season. My parents knew each other for nine months and got engaged. And you hear those stories and anytime that happens, they like. I am a living proof of one of those stories and anytime that happens yeah they like i am a living yeah i'm living proof of one of those stories so i i totally buy that and the show itself you know if it was a normal show it's like a nine-week process which is insanely fast you

know yeah this is a two-week process and all of a sudden you know we've had these other seasons colton not get engaged peter's whole season was a mess now he's with kelly they're not engaged you know etc etc and it was i just found it really interesting that the yeah i'm really curious again like i'm curious what the the audience thinks not having to you know talking about this before reading audience reaction is that the show made no attempt to hide the fact that they clearly pressured those two into getting engaged. Yeah, the moment that really bothered me, I guess the engagement didn't surprise me,

but the moment that bothered me was when Claire really was showing doubts about it and how she didn't, you know, this was this precious thing to her. And she said, he means everything to me. I don't want to ruin it by putting too much pressure on like she knew the you know the damage it could cause and i didn't love how then it became about well like well trust yourself trust your instincts it's like if you trust your instincts then that should be to just let this play out you do not need to get engaged tonight so i didn't love that language it really just felt like she was getting i didn't there was no question they were fully fully pressuring yeah i didn't like it either

and i again i well i think what i'm most fascinated by is that there's that if the show is like if we hear from harrison or whatever and he's just like well no that was totally their decision then it's just like why did you it was aired as if it wasn't you know what i'm saying so i'm fascinated oh did he say that it was their decision no i mean i have we haven't like you know i'm sure chris will do oh i guess he will come out and just knowing the show like chris harrison oh that'll be so funny chris harrison's playing host like chris is the host and he's doing his job and you know it's there's a lot of a lot of people who are part of the production of it all i just think it would be kind of funny because whatever is the

truth how it is aired looks like chris harrison uh more or less forced them to do it yes and no matter what that's the best what we saw is the best package they could present to us. The one that made it seem the least like they pressured them into it. Yeah. So imagine how much they actually did. Well, that's the assumption, but it'd be kind of, yeah. It's a reasonable assumption. Sure.

But I'm just, you know, I, yeah, I'm really curious what comes out. I am curious about, I suspect that Claire and Dale will own it right because ultimately it was their decision right like there is no gun to their head they could have said no but it was definitely hung over their head and particularly uh Dale's I feel well We'll get to that. It's fine. We can talk about that. What's so fascinating about all that is that Dale was the last to know. Yeah.

He really was. He's the one who's asking. Bill Lane knew before Dale knew. At least that's how it appeared. Yes. It looked as if that everyone was talking about Claire and Dale getting engaged and Dale had no plans and no idea to propose that day. Now, he may have had plans to get engaged to Claire.

He might have absolutely thought Claire is going to be my wife. I can see it. But everyone... So, question. What? Do you feel that if he had been feeling that way that they would have aired it or do you think they would have intentionally not

in order to make it seem like he might not requite her feelings i guess that's what i find so because that was clearly that's what i find so fascinating about it right is that if if there was a a scene where dale's like hey chris is it nuts can i propose to claire can i call neil you know there's so many ways they could have done it but the way they aired it i find it fascinating that they made themselves look like everyone was talking about this engagement and dale was the last to know yeah and that to me is just mind-blowing as someone who's been a part of that world it also lined up with the rest of the sort of dale edit though you know we don't he's already a bit poker face like he's not super emotive to begin with but seems to have the best of intentions but we never get his point of view on almost anything so this is what do you mean? I guess I never picked up on that.

Could you elaborate? Oh, I just mean, you know, certainly in the first three episodes, it just sort of felt like Dale was, you know, Dale through Claire's eyes. But in terms of ITMs of his and just sort of his thoughts, his feelings, his reflections,

especially since everyone else, including the men, all seem to have a very strong opinion of him. There didn't seem to be a ton. I think the most we ever saw him speak was when he was saying he was the best suited to have comforted her during that Yosef debacle. So I feel like this was really just them driving that home. I just really feel like we didn't get a ton of his perspective until finally he did share

his parents' meeting story. And he did at that proposal open up. And I get that it was all for the suspense. But I guess what bothers me about it is that considering this is a love story, it doesn't really do their love story justice. if he does love her as much as he seems to in those little fleeting moments, it kind of just makes her like, look like she's wondering if he loves her back the whole time when it just would have been more.

I get it. It's suspense. It's TV. I get it. That's the show. I mean, when I was the basher, it was,

I know, but from a love story, I know. Yeah. Well, like they, you know, it was aired in a way where,

um, was I going gonna get rejected at the altar again so to speak even though like okay you know what i'm saying because i took second twice as if like i was so unlucky in love that like yeah yeah i was super fucking annoyed and irritated and it was just like okay whatever um that's just what I mean, no one knows better than you. They create the suspense. Yeah, but I still, nonetheless... It bothered me, I guess, considering the whole empowered woman narrative around Claire

and just how this last episode just really felt like it was her so desperately wanting to be loved and not sure if he felt that way about her. It was just frustrating. I get frustrated, too. In defense of the show, so desperately wanting to be loved and not sure if he felt that way about her. It was just frustrating. I get frustrated too. In defense of the show, sometimes I do forget that, like your ego, right? For me, like no one wants to get broken up with in life, right?

And then when you go on a TV show, you feel like this humiliation, right? When it happens, I'm going to look like an idiot. I'm a fool uh i'm afraid of rejection and i think as cast people we forget how relatable heartbreak is again when claire's just like i always show up and they never do right as a friend to claire is so like you're like uh but so many people and i'm getting curious it's like that is the relatable moment and what the show is you know what I'm saying? That balance, right?

I was super fucking irritated when the show was doing that to me. And I sometimes forget that, again, every time people get broken up with on that show, it's always their best moment. But Claire showing that vulnerability and that relatability of that fear is something I'm assuming a lot of people, men and women, can relate to of fear of rejection, of fear of loneliness, of fear of this, oh, shit, it's happening again. It's literally the reason why most bachelors and bachelorettes become the lead. Yeah, right. And that's why the show has been so successful is that

it never works out mentality. And so, yes, like looking at it at a micro level i i i relate and agree with your irritation but on a macro level like i also like i get why they do it it's yes yeah it's like okay no i totally agree i guess for me just i'm used to it but particularly with claire and the in you know we had an entire goat season of you know being reminded of how empowered she is it just sort of i i understand and completely agree that that those were actually some of her finest moments in terms of relatability and your heart breaks for her and you just want her to find it so badly but if he did feel the same way about her it would just serve that empowered like i know what i want i i trust my gut i knew the second i saw him narrative better if we had gotten to hear that from him

throughout yeah no and i would yeah i agree on the macro level yeah and you know here's the thing i always say like this their their story has yet to be told um yes i i mentioned this to claire on the phone it's like listen i i didn't ask her because i didn't want to know and i was like listen if you're still with dale um and i don't have an answer and i was like like, don't answer. That's all that's going to matter, right? You know, like as far as what people react right now, how they reacted last week, people ultimately love the love story, right? And so their story really has yet to be told, you know? And so Ari and Lauren are the best example

of the instant reaction to Ari and Lauren was like no one wanted anything to do with that couple. They were just like, oh, this is awkward. He proposed to Lauren like right after, like the next day after they aired this like- Yeah, oh, they're not gonna last. You know, cringeworthy breakup. And honestly, people were completely disinterested

in that proposal. And yet, you know, I don't really follow, but I think they're doing quite well. You know, they're doing their thing. I think they're one of the best couples. They have a kid and now the show is promoting them as a success, a love story, and a lot of people love following their relationship. And, you know, I don't know them that well or at all.

But, yeah, they have a nice love story and they seem happy and doing their thing and you know it's time heals all wounds there so like if claire and dale are still together if they do well none of this bullshit will matter and if they do break up then they break up and people will just move on quickly i do hope that people sort of mind their manners a bit with suggesting that it won't work out automatically. Well, you know you're going to hear their opinions. I still will do that, but...

Yeah, I'm sure. What do you think? I mean, objectively, I know it's like I'm asking you the question, but what do you think? I don't need an answer whether they will or they won't, but I guess maybe what are some reasons why you think they will work and maybe some reasons why they might not? Well, I mean, obviously the skeptic in me is like,

okay, well, they don't know each other that well. They haven't known each other that long. They went on one date and then he proposed, that kind of thing. I don't think that I'm crazy for thinking that. Sure. But I actually think the best indicator that maybe he is what she thinks he is and that he truly does reciprocate what she feels for him beyond what he could express in words and this is tying back into what i said earlier about the proposal was the fact that he did

propose because to me him proposing whether or not he fully felt ready to do it was him saving face for her because he certainly knew what that would do to her in this position to not validate the feelings she had had for him and by proposing he was in my eyes protecting her the way she really sought to be protected does that make any sense yeah no it totally does what do you guys in your sense to it it's like whether he was the it was the grand gesture beyond just oh i want to marry you him proposing in that setting under that pressure with that little, with having known her for two weeks, yes, I assume he also feels that way about her,

but still, a lot of men who still feel that way would be like, oh, proposal, that's a little extreme. I really felt like that was him, to use her words, showing up in the way that she thought he would for her. Well, I think what you say, and now hearing you talk about that what it really it's um and the engagement on that show is a symbol right it like you know what i'm saying

it's not even like i don't want to say it's not a real engagement but in a lot of ways it's not a real engagement i think a lot of people who almost a lot of people go on that show it's real but it's not and what i mean by not is like and you've heard it from other people i think jordan mentioned this with jojo i certainly how i felt with vanessa was like this is real but if we make it work if i end up getting married i picture myself reproposing to like hey yeah we got engaged in this very crazy environment that was structured and it had an expectation of engagement. It was like a schedule. Yeah.

So, and that, I don't know if that does or doesn't take anything away from that moment. But if we do work out, I want you to know that I'm choosing and I'm asking without any outside pressure when it's just you and I, and I don't have any reason to do this other than I want to do it for you is like a, a renewal of vows, if you will. Right. And I think a lot of people feel that way. And so, yeah, I think you're right. Like I can see how Dale's like, you know what? Fuck it. Like, I know I'm crazy about you. This is nuts. Like, I'm not going to pretend this isn't nuts. And you know what?

I can do this again. I can revalidate my love for you in the future. And if it doesn't work out, fuck it. Like, I don't doubt my feelings for you in this moment. What about when she pushed him back down? And she was like, no, get back down. She's like, this is my moment or something, right? Like, he hadn't put the ring on yet.

And she was like, no. And she, like, pushed him down to, like, make sure he put the ring on yet and she was like no and she like pushed him down to like make sure he put the ring on she said i've been waiting a lot of yeah but to put the ring on before he could stand up i mean i hate to point it out just because like claire's had a hard time but when she said that all i thought about was winter games which a lot of people are having an issue with of uh her her benoit engagement that you know people are like the show seems to be trying to forget happened. I actually never saw winter. I didn't either, but she got engaged in winter games and they made her think of it.

And it was part of the show. And if you watched winter games, it does come across as like, not only like, I don't have a problem with Claire being engaged before. It doesn't take anything away from her, but it's, it's because it was a part of the show. It just not it's it's just being ignored which i don't really

have a problem with but in that moment when claire said i've been waiting a lot for this the cynic in me was like i mean you've been waiting but like well if we're gonna get i was just like oh she made him go back down. Okay. Yeah, I can definitely picture people having an issue with that. I think it was a very Claire moment. That's what I was going to say. It was kind of endearing. Yeah, it's a Claire moment. Yeah, it's kind of endearing in its imperfectness.

And, you know, it's not quite as gracious as you imagine. But at the same time, that's part of the charm. Yeah, Claire is an acquired taste and she is but she is authentic yes i and people i i hope appreciate that um more right i think they will after this episode for sure she got her i mean there were a lot of shitty things that happened in episode three where i don't think the show did her any favors and certainly i think she made her mistakes but that's what i'm saying i don't i don't know if claire did herself any favors either but because people and that's i have such a hard time with that and i've gotten a harder heart and i've spoken at the heart it's just like you want to be able to watch a show and critique people's choices because

if you are going to go on the show and you're going to make choices, it's fair to be critiqued. Right. And now it's kind of the point where if you criticize, you hate them. If you don't, because some people who do criticize are so just nasty. They're very passionate.

And I don't want to be able to like, you know, I, I don't want to blame like, oh, because Claire looked the way she did, it's all the show's fault. Or like, listen, I'm sure maybe the show didn't maybe not have helped her.

But Claire does have to own some of her decisions she's making in that world. And it's- It's a team effort. And Claire, you know, did some things that didn't read as likable. That doesn't mean, yeah, fine. So what?

But to your point, yes. I think it really, she was very charming and very sincere and very relatable for anyone who just really wants to find love and values what that means to them and has had some bad luck, whether it's by their own mistakes or through people, not, you know, mistakes or through people um not you know other people's mistakes you know and did i have that moment with i i just i really related that i thought it was a really sweet moment for claire and i and i hope that uh people i i hope people are rooting for claire and dale i yes and like i said to me the fact that he did propose was actually the, and I don't just mean because he proposed to marry her, but that he proposed under those circumstances to me was the biggest like, oh, wow, maybe this really does. This is some, you know, this has something that none of us can understand because it showed him in a way, in a roundabout way, coming to her, her rescue in a way in a roundabout way coming to her her rescue in a way he knew how it would look on her if he didn't do it and he did it to protect her yeah because and i'm sure because

he also wants to marry her but he could have easily been like i really like her i even love her but like let's slow a lot between love and a proposal. Right? And I feel like you're right. He could have said that. And the fact that he didn't, he just, he does have a very, one thing has been clear about Dale. He seems to want to protect Claire or respect, you know, he does seem to have, and he's spoken about it with his mom and his sister. He seems to have a great respect for women.

He seems to have a great respect for the people who the women he cares about i think that's great i think that's charming i think people should appreciate that about him um and to your point he seems to like want to go up out of his way to make that happen for the for the women he cares about yes and that's what yeah what his proposal looked like to me in a wonderful way, like a very touching. I'm really curious if us saying this and pointing this out will make people see that, or if people will see it when they watch it. That's interesting that you say that, because when I first watched the episode, I didn't think that. And then after I slept on it, I was like wow you know him proposing was not just him

reciprocating it was in a way him you know it was it was that gesture that that did validate what she thought he was yeah um so what are your thoughts now that claire and dale are are engaged uh give me some thoughts on taisha coming in uh as well as some of the guys they're not bringing in new guys are they no there's 16 of them left they're gonna use the same guys and they do bring in do they i heard rumors that they do well maybe they'll show it next episode yeah i guess but those 16 guys should be interesting because you could tell these guys are like brothers it's really cute it's like nick walking in they're all gonna give you the death we've been through yeah starting and now chrissy it's so

true i feel like and this season more than anything because they have like, all they've had is each other because it's been Claire and Dale. We've been bonded because we got trashed on. Yeah. I do like watching their friendships like when they were,

when Ben made fun of... I don't get that. I don't... A lot of people do. But to me, I just, I see it as so... You know what I find?

You know why I don't appreciate it as much? Because having been in that world, I think it's so in I don't appreciate as much because having been in that world I think it's so inauthentic the friendships yeah because I know that a year from now so many of these guys will no longer be friends some of these guys will be friends with guys they never thought to be friends with many of these guys are going to go on paradise and form different friendships because of the different dynamic. Everything about this environment is so forced and it's so warped and they're bonding over this frustration with Claire and Dale. And I do, I find it, I don't think they're deliberately being disingenuous, but I just know that it is disingenuous by design. Oh, I don't see it that way.

But granted, you know, both of your seasons, you proposed like that. Like you really had a different experience than someone like me who... Think about your season. The friendships.

How many women were you friendly with on your season and really bonded with and how many of those people, and I'm not saying none, but how many of those people you're no longer friends with now or you no longer talk to no see no it's the kind of thing where you'll

text here and there you might dm each other you'll sort of engage with each other friendly but i'm talking about friends right i'm not like i would say there's two from my season where we like hang you know if they're in new york we're hanging out that's the thing it's like logistics get in the way life gets in the way i think that actually the things you're talking about the bizarre otherworldly experience it that bonds them is precisely what sort of fast tracks of friendship and and yes you could argue that it might not have the legs to stand and carry on in real life i don't think i don't look at it and go, oh, look, these guys are bonding,

and look, this budding friendship's going to form. And thus, some friendships have come from it. I have some great friends from the show, but I know a lot of these, what we're seeing, it's because of the frustration about Claire. I don't know who are these guys going to be. Yeah, but all friendships,

not all friendships, but many friendships are born from commiseration. Totally. I don't know which of these guys are actually going to be friends you know what i'm saying it's fair but nonetheless i'm going to be the uh i i i think the friendships are endearing i think it's just cute when ben makes fun of easy's like heartbeat yeah the sofa you know it's just kind of cute i love you so like that i'm all i'm saying is when i watch it in real time i'm not like putting you know it's more like not that i care in general but that's the stuff that will like you know you'll see like becca and jojo are still really good friends and they were friends on the show like that that's you know one

you know what i'm saying it's just you'll fight you'll see that on social media or whatever like and things like that but i just i don't watch a show and and be like oh well at least they're getting along and i mean i know what you mean to the extent where it's like you know there's a reason why you only post photos with bachelor friends is because if you post photos with friends that you might be closer with in real life, people aren't going to like that photo as much, and maybe you care about the engagement on your social media. So I totally understand that. But we all have varying degrees of friendships.

I don't know why I'm really picking this battle, but I think that the friendships are endearing. And I will argue that this season will be extra interesting to watch in that regard because the men are so bonded. And when they inevitably do develop feelings for Tayshia, that will be a lot more interesting to watch. Well, that, I think, yeah, I agree. I think that's where the potential next drama is going to come from

is with a different lead, there'll be different guys interested, there'll be different guys getting attention. Yeah, different frontrunners. And that will completely change the dynamic. And, you know, oh, I thought, like, this guy was easy to like when we both weren't getting time with Claire. Yes.

Yes, hands down. Does any of that change? And I am really curious about that. What are your thoughts on Tayshia in general? I mean, I've always been a Tayshia fan. I think she's very well-spoken. You could even tell when she came out and was just sort of joking about how, you know, now she knows she's not being punked.

There's a sort of off-the-cuff cleverness to Tayshia that I've always enjoyed. She's very polished in a way that I know some people don't love, but I just think she's such a lady. I love her. She's just elegant and and oh my god she looked amazing i thought she looked so hot you look good i'm curious yes what do you do you think uh i mean she's definitely has a disadvantage in terms of making any of these relationships work i mean you know absolutely she has less time and she didn't even narrow she didn't

whittle down the selection of men herself i am curious too just like how the show is going to evolve and with this season is there a pressure on taisha to to find the same type of love you know the show like this episode oh again i feel like she will be yes reality versus the show looked like they pressured claire Dale to get engaged, right? So the show doesn't seem to have much sympathy for like, you get less time. And so I'm curious if America will have the same sympathy, how that plays out, what happens with Tayshia, how will people react if she's not feeling it because i do think taisha she is uh again she's a lot more pragmatic and will think things through a lot more and that will on the flip side like you know cause her to maybe overthink question if she has these feelings and it might be a challenge for her to like land on a guy

with like two thirds of the normal time which is already very limited. Yeah. So I'm really curious how that plays out. Yeah. No, it'll be very and she does have just such a different personality than Claire.

So I agree. It'll be interesting to see how she handles it. And you do have to sort of wonder if she under the same circumstances as Claire, if she also would have, you know, been like, yeah, yeah, I do want to get engaged after this much time, you know, or if she will sort of put her foot down and say it doesn't matter. I don't know. That will be interesting. I'm not really sure. I suspect that next week, Batch Nation,

it's going to be a lot of, oh, what a breath of fresh air. I love Tayshia. Because she's so opposite of Claire. It'll just be calm. It'll be... So question, do you not think that that was part of the...

I know Claire absolutely needs to take responsibility for the reasons why maybe people didn't respond to her but do you think that that was sort of the edit was part of that in us feeling a sense of like oh thank god i really don't i mean i i i agree i don't either i i like i know cla Claire well enough to be like, that's Claire. I don't feel like, even when I talked to Claire, I was like, well, did you fall for Dale this hard? And she was like, yeah. I'm like, well, that's what I'm seeing. And I'm seeing Claire, someone who is very earnest,

who's very passionate, who's been through a lot, and reacts very quickly and very emotionally to things that she feels passionate about. That's what I saw. And in these small doses, sometimes that reads as authentic and charming, and sometimes that reads as a little crazy. So I didn't feel like I saw a different claire from the claire that i know no i agree with that on the whole for sure and i think we you and i always talk about this about how edits like yeah there's little things here and there but overall what you see on tv is more

or less what you get like most people especially the more you see of them right and we've seen a lot of claire 100 yeah right so is this like a drastic claire than we've seen in these other shows that she's no no but i still maintain that i felt episode three and i don't get me wrong like i said i do think claire made her mistakes but i did feel like there were some subtle little things that we didn't need to be shown that it felt like we were being shown to sort of you know if claire were already grading on you then it would have just sort of you know if Claire were already grading on you then it would have just sort of you know are you referring to like the engagement line or the fiance line oh no I'm not I'm more so you know when when they caught her sort of off camera and I don't know whether that audio belonged in that moment but where she said can we rush the rest along like I don't want to

she's made it sound like she didn't really want to spend time with the other men i mean i found that interesting sorry no go ahead please i mean you're the lead in the room so or the former lead in the room so i i just have a hard time believing that no other lead has ever said anything along every every single lead has rachel lindsey exactly rachel but that hasn't been shown that hasn't right now again that's an interest that's a fair debate is it fair for the show to like it definitely didn't help claire out no and again i would totally i would be and to that end i'd be super fucking mad at the show if they did that to me and and if you're looking at it just from that lane they definitely did her dirty 100 no argument there however claire is the only lead to have done what she's done and that is to

like she canceled that group date right because she didn't like the date all right fine that's super authentic you can make the argument that i wouldn't you know there's a lot of shit i didn't want to do as the bachelor and they you know so they claire put the show that's another sorry but even that that's another example it turns out she canceled that group date because of the strip group date and she felt like this was you know it also had like sexual undertones she didn't want to make the guys uncomfortable whatever it is like if you yeah but they didn't air her saying that it was just oh i decided to cancel the group date it just felt flippant and dismissive but if we knew that was the reason the intent

behind that is so different than her just sort of like oh yeah it's getting dark you know there's no explanation it doesn't make her look good i would so i just feel like these subtle little things make you just sort of more annoyed with her than you actually would have been. You're right. I mean, if clearly the show's only goal wasn't to say, let's make the Clara look the best as possible. Which is often the case for leads. Not always, but often. I think always the show's number one goal

is to make the most compelling TV show possible. I agree with that. And they like to mutually, and often is the case, simultaneously make their leads more or less likable. And because they usually have a whole season, there are always moments where every lead pisses off America or does something slightly unlikable but the shows knows that like listen bachelor nation will get over nick bouncing in a jump

bouncy capo with bouncy castle with corinne because it's episode three and in five weeks in three weeks no one's going to remember it right such an iconic moment nick so i'm just saying like you're it's usually you know they usually work hand in hand and in this case what i'm saying is it wasn't their number one goal and because claire did what they did it did provide context and that's what i mean like what the for me i i didn't personally have a problem with it because just because people reacted the way they did to Claire doesn't mean that the show... Like, they still... What Claire did, her dismissiveness towards the guy, calling the fiance, in no way does

that justify... Like, there's no crime was committed, right? All she did was what everyone would do. She liked a guy more than other people. And in the world, in the the real world if you like a guy you don't want to talk to a bunch of people you don't like that's a relatable thing in bachelor world scene is like not the rules and we lose our shit over it and so i think what they provided context right around why chris harrison in this episode had to come in and say, this isn't working, right?

Yes, but I maintain that some of those little scenes that we were shown, you know, you talk about how, yes, we'll see these sort of questionable actions of the lead that make you kind of like, eh, not fully be on their side in a specific scenario. But I would argue that Claire had just as many as any other lead, but they were all crammed into like three episodes or two episodes. Sure. Well, one, because they had to make, they had to cram it in because they're bringing in Tayshia. No question.

I, I, all I'm saying is like, I think we're sort of agreeing on this, but I do think that it's that these subtle little things, even subliminally just make us want Claire to endale this leaf. Do you know what I mean? Like, and we want, there's a sense of like, Oh, Tisha, fresh up. Because like, as a viewer,

we have to want to be excited about Tisha for that reason. Absolutely. Right? No, I'm not, but I'm not disagreeing with, I'm not disagreeing with that in the least, but I do maintain that it's not, I don't think the show had no part in us feeling that way. Listen, it's fun to talk about.

It's fun to like, especially with Charlene and I, we definitely like to... I know this is so one of our normal conversations. Yeah, the subtleties of like, well, I see it this way. We're like, but they showed this one thing. Yeah. I have a question for you guys. What?

Do you guys think that when Tasia walks in the door, the guys are going to know who she is? Good question. Yes, some some for sure yeah i think like 75 that high 50 i think this season's unique because i thought i think they brought in a handful of guys who are older and maybe not have been fans of the shows like you know i think when it was peter season everyone knew all those girls watched Peter season, and they all knew. And they were all, like, fans of the show.

That's what I'm wondering. If, like, guys are, like, fans of the show, and they, like, know who these people are. I honestly think there's a handful of guys who have no fucking clue who most of the people in Bachelor Nation were before them. And I think there will definitely be half the guys. It wouldn't surprise me if half the guys have no clue. Yeah, I agree with that. I still think 75, but I agree with you that I wouldn't be surprised if half the guys have no clue. Yeah, I agree with that. I still think 75, but I agree with you that I wouldn't be surprised if only half of them. It's so awkward.

She walks in and they're like, hey, you. Honestly, I think they're just so glad that they're not being sent home and they're getting a real shot to be on TV. And this idea of them going after Claire claire and blaming claire for waste and they're and like they're just mad they didn't get a fair shake at being on tv they didn't get the real experience and that's fine they could be disappointed it's not whatever but yeah so i just think they're thrilled i don't think they care who walks in i think they'll be thrilled when it's taisha i mean she's beautiful she's nice and like i think they're gonna be thrilled yeah yeah i think you look so hot you're

so cool you you person i'm just i can't i just really hope i hope uh blake gets a lot of early i want to see blake talk to taisha and i really hope that blake falls just in love with taisha as he did Claire oh no I don't know if he didn't get a book on her so who knows I don't know if I see it either but that's what I hope happens you know what I'm saying like I want I want to see that awkwardness I want to know what it is

I can't see Tayshia being into Blake either cannot and maybe yeah maybe we'll be really wrong about that but that's just I can't see she was into John Paul Jones I mean mean, yeah. He was silly, though. Yeah, but they don't have that. They're not the same.

But I'm just saying that was a surprise, too. That was fair. Fair. I want easy confessionals the whole time. That's the most entertaining thing to me is easy. Yeah. He does have good commentary. Yeah.

Well, okay. And so as we let you go, from are you like from the little bit we know about the guys? And I'm truly, this is what I find. I'm totally spoiler free from here on out. Same. I couldn't even begin to guess who her top four would be. Yeah. Without, I don't know if they bring in new guys.

Do you have guesses? I have my eye on Ivan and I have since the beginning. I just feel like we always see him. We don't really hear a lot from him. I think he... On night one, I was just like,

this guy's really special. I really like Ivan, yeah. Yeah. And I feel like the reason we've sort of just seen his reactions to things, but he hasn't been that involved. I feel like the reason we've sort of just seen his reactions to things, but he hasn't been that involved. I feel like that will finally get him his time to shine coming up.

I really like Brendan, but I don't know if it's just because I think he's really cute. Which one's he? But I don't know. I have no idea. He's got like light blue eyes. At the last roast, when he's about to meet Tayshia, he has like a turtleneck with a suit. Curly hair. Yeah, curly hair. Yeah, he's about to meet taisha he's like a turtleneck with a suit curly hair he's the yeah yeah he's got nice yeah yeah yeah um yeah it is hard to imagine that

jason doesn't have more of a role to play it's i just don't really picture that not going anywhere just because he is so oh i can i can picture him going home much sooner than people expect for that reason like again it's a different season right it's not it's not like this gradual like evolution no it's a good point he was the guy who let it we know him yeah he opened like jason he got a lot of airtime because he was literally the only other person who got a legit one-on-one with claire yeah the only person the only person one-on-one with Claire. He was the only person who got a legit one-on-one with Claire. And that's why we saw it. And it was a pretty good one-on-one. It was a guy opening up, and

he had a story to tell. We got to see that, but it has no bearing on whether Tayshia likes Jason at all. What about Bennett? I see your point, but I do think that Jason is probably the most John Paul Jones-ish. I think Bennett is. No, Bennett's the most. I think Bennett is. Bennett's the most John Paul Jones. Bennett would surprise me if you askedish. I think Bennett is. No, Bennett's the most. I think Bennett is. Bennett's the most John Paul Jones.

Bennett would surprise me if you asked me. I think Bennett is there for comic relief and he's just a caricature on the show. Yeah. And he's not a real love interest. I definitely can see Bennett lasting for a while, for sure. But I can see him, yeah. Paradise is different.

I think in that world, he doesn't have a shot with Tayshia. But I could be wrong. Because to me i agree with you he seems like the most juan paul john paul jones who's like this weirdly earnest but goofy like like he'd come out in a smoking jacket with like a drink and some slip like just be like this is how i do my life yeah like john paul jones was like this guy this goofy surfer dude you thought was great and all out of nowhere became this almost like really earnest romantic lead yeah i wouldn't go so far but like kind of borderline crazy and earnest and like loses shit when he doesn't get the girl he likes and like takes himself like john paul jones went from a guy who didn't take

himself serious at all to a guy who took himself way too serious when it came to Tasha. See, the feeling about Bennett is I can't see him ever taking himself too seriously in this setting. Well, can you remember? I remember thinking that about John Paul Jones. And then it happened. So I agree with you. To be honest. Yeah, no, I see see the point what happens if tasha walks in and bennett is just like this is you know john paul jones looked at tasha i was like she is amazing she is incredible she is the i can't believe this girl's going on a date with me and he like got to taste the forbidden fruit and there's someone like that for everyone and if Tasha is like that for Bennett I can see that same shift maybe you're right I still have a hard time picturing

it but maybe I will you'll be getting a great I told you so in a month and a half we'll see alright so but it sounds like we both agree that we really we're all kind of just guessing yes and I love being spoiler free from here on out like i feel like

now i'm finally watching this show you know like i get to watch it with fresh eyes from here on out yeah i uh do you want them to bring someone else in other men yeah do you think that'd be great or do you hope they just i i like on a logical level, I'm like, yeah, it would be nice if Tasha had the same sort of selection that Claire had to begin with. But at the same time, I know that like half an episode is going to be wrapped up in the guys

having an issue with these other guys coming in and them not getting along. And I just sort of don't want to watch that rigmarole. I don't want to watch them giving those guys the looks that you got going into Caitlin's season. I just sort of skip to the part where they're friends. I do. And I think everyone wants to. to you're like i had to go through it everyone else i i think it's just more i think for one episode the transition from taisha from claire to taisha will be appreciated and needed but calmness gets, we'd like the drama.

This is why we're watching it. Like one episode's fine, but like we want drama somehow, whether it's from Tayshia, whether it's from the guys, you know what I'm saying? Like. No, I agree.

I think that I would rather watch the drama that sort of unfolds from these really like solid friendships and how they kind of like crack when they do start developing feelings. I don't. It's more so that I don't want to watch forced drama because we have new people. We're being bored listening to this.

If they all are like, I don't know if I can get past Claire, I'm going to be so upset. I don't suspect we're going to get a ton of drama, natural drama from Tayshia. She's, I don't think, a dramatic person. No. So I think it's going to have to come from the guys.

I agree with that. And yeah. Yes, as it usually does oh well it usually does yeah come from the for the bachelorette no it usually comes from don't not agree claire uh hannah hannah brown well drama hannah brown was a part of the drama in a good way right oh yeah fantastic yeah hannah brown is to this day one of my all-time favorite caitlin was a part of the drama right you know i'm not saying she created it but she didn't run away from it she wasn't resistant to it caitlin was very much part of the drama yes i would say some of her actions became became part of the that's what i'm saying like caitlin just went up

yeah we're agreeing yeah but i but then you know you look at a becca or you look at a rachel and it's that's not the sense you get from them i don't think that every lead is none of them yeah i don't think i don't think becca was dramatic at all no at all no she wasn't part of any drama no she was not i would just yeah i'm just i think it's gonna be more like becca yeah i agreed i can totally see that i can see them being like having a similar vibe smart but not needing it yeah well charlene this is a ton of fun as always uh you have a new podcast out there with your husband and my dear friend, Andy. Would you like to tell people a little bit about it? Oh, yeah. You're so sweet. Yeah. I have a relationship podcast now with my husband.

And people call in, they ask questions, and we just sort of give them our honest, brutally honest takes. And you know Andy well, so you know that he doesn't mince words. Yeah. Obviously, my listeners are very familiar with that model. And these are two people who brutally honest takes and you know andy well so you know that he doesn't mince words yeah um obviously my listeners are very familiar with that that model and these are two people whose i will go to at times for my own shit so i mean you're you are one of our favorite people ever to talk about relationships with and so it does seem fitting that we would be discussing it even here right now so yeah we both, we both get it. We love talking about relationships,

you and I, and it's, yeah, it's been a fun venture for sure. Awesome. We'll make sure to check that out. Other than that, we have a very,

very fun and awesome episode. Well, no, yeah. Monday. Ask Nick. And then, well,

it's such a weird schedule. I'm like, I'm so. What is today? Friday for people? It's going to be Thursday. It's going to be Thursday, it's such a weird schedule. I'm like, I'm so. Monday. What is today? Friday for people? It's going to be Thursday. It's going to be Thursday. No, it's drop ting on Thursday.

So this is, they're listening. Okay. Friday night. They're listening to this Thursday night or Friday morning. I don't know. Check us out next week. Ask Nick. Bachelor recap.

Kaylin Allen. Kaylin Allen. Very fun episode. And other than that, we will see you on monday