The Viall Files - E226 Breaking Down Marriage 101 With Dr. Alexandra Solomon

Episode Date: January 20, 2021

Today we are joined but Dr. Alexandra Solomon. Over the last two decades, Dr. Alexandra H. Solomon has become one of today’s most trusted voices in the world of relationships. A professor, therapist, speaker, author, retreat leader, and media personality, Dr. Solomon is passionate about translating cutting-edge research and clinical wisdom into practical tools people can use to bring awareness, curiosity, and authenticity to their relationships. Her work on relational self-awareness has reached millions of people around the world. Dr. Solomon is a faculty member in the School of Education and Social Policy at Northwestern University and a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University. Nick and Dr. Solomon dive into a bunch of relationship topics including, how to handle a relationship in a “rut”, hook up culture, porn in a relationship, expectations of men in the bedroom, how to speak to your partner without judgement , and making sure you know your body so you can communicate to your partner what works for you sexually.  “ If there is one thing I have learned from 20 years of couples therapy, what matters so much to a man is how he looks in his partners eyes.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Headspace: http://www.headspace.com/VIALL for a free one month trial.  Upstart: http://www.upstart.com/VIALL to find out how you can lower your monthly payments.  HighKey: http://www.highkey.com/FILES to get 15% off you order  Article: http://www.article.com/VIALL for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @dr.alexandra.solomon See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What's going on everybody welcome to another episode of the vile files I am your host Nick I hope you guys are having just a wonderful day and a great week, you know, and thanks for tuning in. Chrissy, how are you doing today? I'm doing great. Sounds like it. Together here in Montana. We got a fantastic episode for you today. Dr. Alexandra Solomon, Sandra Solomon, who is a professor at Northwestern. Little props to Amanda, part of our social syndicate, took a class of hers at Northwestern, a very popular class, world-renowned class.

We're just ticking off the Northwestern stuff. That's our third one, third Northwestern. It's a good school. So, you know, yeah, I mean, it was fantastic talking to Dr. Sullivan. She is an expert in the field of relationships and sex. And like I said, teaches a very popular class at Northwestern. And we talk about all things, relationships, dating, hookup culture, kinks. We have a brief discussion. Ari Hammer stuff, porn, the role it plays in relationships. Is it good?

Is it bad? I don't know. You have to listen to find out. But I'm sure you guys will find this as interesting as I found it to have the conversation with Dr. Solomon. And it was a ton of fun. And so we always love having our experts really give us some expertise on the things that we like to talk about on the show so thanks for tuning in don't forget to send us your questions at

asknicocastme.com cast with a K send us your reviews we got some always fun and exciting merch at vilefiles.com I think that's it let's just get to Dr. Solomon and until then I hope you enjoy this episode. Dr. Solomon, thanks so much for joining.

It's so good to be with you. I'm very excited to have this chat with you. Obviously, we talk a lot about relationships, dating, and sex on this show. And it's so nice to finally have an actual expert. I mean, we've had experts before, but usually it's a lot, I just say a bunch of crap and stuff. And sometimes it's nice to check in with people who actually know what they're talking about. So thank you for joining. Absolutely. I was happy to get the invite. Obviously, we have people here. Amanda, who is a part of our team, has taken your class.

You teach a class that it sounds like it's incredibly popular. It's even gotten more popular outside the University of Northwestern. And that is Marriage 101, right? It's called Marriage 101? It is. It is. And how did that get started? How long have you been teaching it? What got to be so popular? I guess give us a little background on your class that you teach. The backstory is that back in the late 90s, I was a graduate student and two of my teachers and mentors had been practicing as couples therapists, you know, for many, many years.

And they were both feeling frustrated by the amount of just distress they were seeing among married couples. And they started to think about prevention. could we teach, you know, emerging adults like 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds, that would be helpful as they start to enter the world of love, sex, dating relationship. And so we built I was a grad student at the time we built from the ground up, like we scoured the relationship science, research, we interviewed couples therapists, and we built from the ground up this curriculum that we called Marriage 101, building loving and lasting relationships. And we built from the ground up this curriculum that we called Marriage 101, Building Loving and Lasting Relationships. And we launched it the first time in 2000. And as you said, Nick, like it has just grown over the years. It's been featured in media stories, you know, around the world. And it is wildly popular, both on campus and elsewhere. And it is

it's a course that basically does two things at once. It offers academic learning, right? So there's, there's papers and there's quizzes and they're reading research and they're reading clinical science. And, but then it's also experiential. So we have these small group discussions where they basically are interviewing their friends, interviewing their exes. One of their assignments that they need to go on a date, like ask somebody on a date, they interview their families, a lot of what we do, which I hope we'll get into is basically understanding the stories and the frameworks that we come into our relationships with. So it's just high quality sex and relationship education. And it is a huge source of like pride and passion for me. That's,. I mean, let's just start there, I guess.

I mean, what are some of the things you talk about, like understanding where we come from or understanding our family dynamic, our relationships with our parents, our sisters that plays a significant role in our own relationships? And what are some ways that people listening could, you know, tap into that without, you know, taking their class? Maybe they're just not going to Northwestern, or they just don't have the time, but what are some things that they could look into to better understand why they react in certain situations or their own relationships? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I mean, over the last, so in the, you know, 20 years since this class launched, I have become increasingly passionate about, okay,

how do we take this and export it to more and more and more audiences. And that now takes the form of, you know, books, conversations like this, I have an e course that we call marriage 101 for the grown and sexy. So now anybody anywhere on earth can sort of take marriage 101 in a more informal way, no quizzes. And the heart of it really is is I call relational self-awareness. And that is about understanding that we, every single one of us has, from the time we were little bitty young people, we have been students of relationships. We, when we're little, our family home really serves as our original love classroom, I call it. Because when we're little, we are watching

everything that goes on around us and making sense of it. We watch how the big people talk to each other. You know, we learn tons of lessons, these like quiet, implicit lessons around gender, around emotions, around differences, how differences get handled, how disappointment gets handled, how apologies get handled. So we are like taking all of this data in kind of at an unconscious level. And we also are learning based on how they're relating to us, right? Like what's our role in our family system, like the perfect child, the lost child, the scapegoat, there's sort of these roles that we take up on our families. And then we take all of that and we bring it all as all the luggage, all the baggage that we then bring into our dating lives. And so there's no way of getting around that. There's no,

there's no bypassing the fact that our past comes with us. But what we can do is we can learn about it and have language for it and have ways of thinking about it and feeling about it. So then we can be like, aha, I know what's happening right now. This is that old feeling I used to have from when I was five years old. And it's creeping up because it will creep up because love as you know, Nick, I mean, love is, it shakes up everything. It's like shaking a snow globe, and it is tumultuous and it's powerful and it's evocative and it holds the power to shift us in incredible ways. Is that why people are better at giving advice in situations they're not

personally affected by just because you, as you mentioned, like when they feel those feelings of love, it just kind of fucks them up a little bit. And you know, they, their decision-making skills almost kind of go out the window, so to speak. That's right. That's right. And it's really, I think it's important to have people around us. You know, I think sometimes I think we give advice. I didn't think that's as, as you know, better than just about anybody. We're all wildly fascinated by what attracts people to each other and what dynamics work and what dynamics don't work. We're all so voyeuristic about kind of understanding this complicated stuff.

And it's really important that then when it, when it comes to our own relationships, that the people who are with us as we're falling in love are able to kind of like hold space for us to understand what's going on rather than advising us, right? I think advice is highly overrated. What's more important is that we have people who can listen carefully to what we're saying and can like reflect us back to us. Can you elaborate on that in terms of like, what would be an example of, you know, having an issue and a conversation you would have with someone that would allow us to,

as you say, reflect the situation back on us. So let's say I'm dating somebody and I'm on date number three. This is clearly a fictional. I've been married to the same guy for 22 years who is a huge fan of The Bachelor and I basically have to lock the door to keep him out of here. Jump in and join us in this conversation. But if I'm, you know, like, let's say I'm in the early stages of dating somebody and you and I are friends and I say, Nick, you know, like, here's the thing. I really love these qualities about this person, but like,

look at this text, look at this text that they sent me. And what do you think of this text? And what do you think I should do? And I'm going to be basically like, hooking you in, right? That's pretty compelling. Like I'm asking you to weigh in and get in the trenches with me. But everything that you say to me is, is experienced through the lens of your experience and your belief and your perspective. So you may start giving me a ton of advice like no, no, that's a huge red flag. Like, don't do that. And that's not going to work. And you got to walk away and they're no good. You may come at me with a bunch of advice very quickly

because that's just sort of how we do it. What's going to be ultimately more helpful is for you to just ask me questions. Like at hold, which is what I'm saying is holding space. For you to hold space for me. It's a huge gift. So that would look like just asking me really open ended questions like, Alexandra, what did you like? How do you feel when that text came in? What do you what do you make of it? What does it say to you? What does it remind you of? And then if you just really, really

want to give me some advice, maybe then you would say, I have some thoughts if you're up for hearing them. Right. So kind of that asking first is so helpful. So you'd say to me, Hey, Alexandra, you know, I have some thoughts on this based on what I know of you based on what I know of your relationship history based on some of my experiences. Are you, would you want some of my thoughts or some of my opinions on this? So I love that idea of clarifying, right? If you're going to come, come in with some advice, can you clarify first and just ask if I'm ready, open and available to hear your perspective? Cause it may be too much because my most important work on date three of a brand

new relationship is figuring out how the hell I feel about it. Sure. Like whether you like the person or not, or a certain situation or just anything. Well, yeah. Whether, whether I like them, whether, whether I feel like this is sort of a troubling sign and I'm figuring out like, am I, you know, am I reacting because it's my issue that I'm bringing in? Or is this really this person has got some things that are problematic indicators? Because sometimes it's my stuff that's, you know, getting kicked up rather than the problem with the person themselves. Do you spend as much time like it sounds like you do, but focusing on, you know, you got like marriage 101. So obviously, we're talking about marriage, but it sounds like so much of the work can be done. Like, in like the early stages of life, or early adulthood, early dating before we are married before we're engaged, or before we're in serious relationships. Absolutely. Yeah, you know, the class, right. So even just the name is sort of

it's sort of an ironic name, right? Because by and large, you know, 20 and 21 year olds aren't thinking about marriage that can feel quite off in the distance. Although what's interesting is like when we first started the class in 2000, we would have, I don't know, a quarter of the class would be engaged. So it really highlights how in the last 20 years, the age of entry into marriage has just gone, has gotten older and older and older. But I do for sure. I think there's things that I want. I want people to be thinking about like when they're 16, 17, 18 years old, there's things that we can, we can learn about ourselves,

about our boundaries that, that can save us pain and help us make choices that end up feeling where, where our relationships leave us better than they find us. 2021 already stressing you out? Same. Well, there is a solution that can help. Headspace. Headspace is one of the only meditation apps advancing the field of mindfulness and meditation through clinically validated research. That's right. So whatever the situation, Headspace really can help you feel better. Overwhelmed? I know I am.

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and certain other information provided in your loan application. At Upstart, they believe that you are more than your credit score. What are some of the things that young people do? If for the people listening who, let's say they're in college and they're just they're in the early dating stages of life what are some of the the challenges or hurdles or mistakes that young people make and i don't want to say get them in trouble but just uh they put maybe a lot of value on things that they maybe they shouldn't or you know you know what i'm saying because i feel like a lot of times i know I watch your TED Talk and a lot of choices and things that we think about are things that we

learned or social stereotypes or just the way society views women and men. And then we make choices in our relationship based off these things that in reality aren't as helpful as we might think. I think that's a great question. I would be so curious to hear your thoughts on it too. Will you share your thoughts after? Yeah, feel free to ask any questions you want. Yeah. Well, I think that, I guess the first thing that comes to mind as you ask that question is some of the complicated stuff that happens around like hookup culture, right? How you, how you sort of pace or sequence emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy. And I think there's something so beautiful and freeing that we have come a long way around destigmatizing sex outside of marriage. And we have done, I think we've done a lot around

beginning to talk about not just like sex education being about safety, but sex education also being about like healthy communication and pleasure and all that kind of stuff. But there's, I do know that in that college students, young adults can feel a lot of pressure to be able to just kind of casually have sex and to have sex really early on in a relationship and have that be actually a way of assessing goodness of fit, right? Like how compatible are we is about how good the sex is. And I think that certainly can be a piece of it. But what it misses is that really good sex is oftentimes something that couples have to have to find their way into, right, they have to feel their way into each other's bodies and

understanding who each of them is. And there's a tremendous amount of emotional vulnerability that's required in order to have really good sex, like sex that feels really pleasurable sex, it feels really intimate sex that leaves us us feeling joyful rather than kind of like, oh gosh, like what was that and what does it mean? And so one of the things I worry about, and one of the, if we're talking about kind of mistakes or stumbling blocks, I think is that young adults very often feel pressured to be able to have casual sex without feelings, just no, you know, no catching feelings, just easy breezy, that it's sort of not a big deal. And I'm, and I don't ever come back, come at it from like, an ethical or moral standpoint, because I really don't care what

people are doing. What I care about is people unhooking sex from like their self awareness, their own understanding of what feels what feels good to me. And if I'm having sex with somebody because I feel like I should, or I have to, or there's a pressure on me, then I'm out of my own integrity, right? I'm not doing myself any good. And I'm actually not doing my partner any good

because I'm letting my boundaries be more expansive than they really ought to be. I've often said on this podcast or just with friends, the biggest liar we'll ever know is ourselves. And I feel like that goes along with the stuff. I mean, I put a lot of effort in my own self-awareness and things like that. put a lot of a lot of effort in my own self-awareness and and and things like that and you said uh i think somewhere i saw that there is no such thing as emotionless sex is that true and and kind of compounding on what you just said you know i will talk to a lot of people who will be like it just it didn't mean anything or it doesn't mean anything we're just having fun and like you i

agree it's just like if you have like a friends with benefit, no judgment, it's fine. But don't lie to yourself about how meaningless you want to believe it is. Cause I I've, I've never really talked to anyone who has no feelings about the situation. And yet so many of us try to think that we have, we're completely indifferent and it's literally just like another, it's, it's, it's like masturbation with a human, you know, or they, they treat it like a very objectifying and it's, it's just not true. And then we get ourselves in these traps by convincing ourselves we have no feelings and then wonder why we feel a certain way about the, our partner saying or doing something that we don't like. That's right. Exactly. Well, and, and I think I like how sad, how sad is it that the goal

would be to feel nothing right around love and sex. I want us to, I want us to be wide open to feeling all of the things, right. That's in sex is this incredible realm of like experiencing not just intimacy with another person, but intimacy within ourselves. Like there's there can be things that are so healing about feeling deeply connected to somebody else while being deeply connected to ourselves. And so if the idea is I'm doing it right when I feel nothing, then there's a way in which we're abandoning, I think we're abandoning ourselves. And not being I love me, that's like, I'm gonna chew on that one for days, Nick, this idea that like, the biggest liar is ourselves that we lie to ourselves. And I think that we do oftentimes feel like we need, I think that we, I think we know more than we think we do, right? We I think we cut ourselves off from deep awareness that that our bodies will feel right. So that if we're really tracking, we're really tracking what's happening inside of our bodies, like I'm a I'm a hell, yes,

that I'm ready for sexual intimacy with you. That's one thing, but I may be saying hell, yes, but inside my body, if I were to listen to my body, my body may be telling me something different. And so if I'm overriding that in order to please you, um, do it because it's, you know, it's date three and date three, I should be ready for it. Like whenever there's a should, that's an indicator that we're leaving our own deep wisdom, which we all have deep wisdom, but stuff in life can take us out of listening to and honoring our deep wisdom. You were talking about something, and I found this really fascinating in terms of, you were talking about orgasms and then the rate in which couples orgasm, depending on the sex, the, the sexuality of the couple,

like a heterosexual couple, a man and a woman seems to have a lower rate of like the couple people orgasming in the relationship rather than like two women having sex or two men having sex. And I found that really fascinating. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more to that because it's, you know, the, the orgasm obviously is something that even in 2021, we're still we discuss as of like this great mystery and men and women seem to have a lot of misconceptions on, you know, what's normal, what's okay, expectations and things like that. Yeah, the research is fascinating. So when you look at a heterosexual couple having first time hookup sex, her chance of having an orgasm is in the single digits. And his actually isn't his actually isn't sky high, but hookup sex versus relationship sex for straight or gay hookup sex, sorry, straight hookup sex is the place where we see the orgasm gap most significant.

So the chances of a woman who's having sex with a man in the context of a hookup, the chances of her having an orgasm are really, really, really single digits, single digits, like four. So for all the guys listening, you're not that guys listening you're not that great you're not that great but not because you not because you suck i mean maybe because you but but the way in which the way the way in which a guy would suck is if it is it's a reminder that um the messages we give men around this stuff are so problematic right because what we teach men is like you're in the bedroom, you've got to be the leader. You've got to be in charge.

You got to know what you're doing. How the hell are you supposed to know what you're doing? You have never met this vulva before. This is your first experience with this particular vulva. You do not know shit and you shouldn't know shit, right? So a deep, what makes, especially in a heterosexual context, what makes a man an amazing lover is deep, deep, deep curiosity. Right? So asking, like, what, asking what, you know, what makes you feel good?

How can I make you calm? Like, what do you love? What do you want? What's inbounds? What's out of bounds? Talking about it. And none of us, I mean, I can guarantee our sex education. The second book I just wrote

is about sex. And so I like did a deep dive into like American sex education. It's just pathetic. The few skills that we how little we learn in American sex ed. So you know that none of us have learned our young men, our men in general haven't learned how to be deeply curious about a woman's pleasure and, and things like mainstream porn, all that kind of stuff reinforces the idea that in a man's head, that what being a good lover means is that I am totally in charge and I don't ask questions. And that's exactly the opposite. A good lover is a lover who asks questions, who really wants to understand, like, how does your body, I don't,

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of $100 or more. And I feel like both men and women are just as guilty of not creating an environment where questions are viewed as positive. Because, you know, guys, I've had friends or even myself where, you know, when you're younger, you ask a question and the response is like, well, why do you want to know that you get very defensive? Are you uncomfortable? Because it is awkward. There's an uncomfortable, you know, my family, like we, we didn't talk about sex at all other than the

fact that I definitely should not have it until I get married. Short of that, that was very clear. And so just the idea of just talking about it so openly and so positively was, is very taboo. So then, you know know forget about talking about sex what about talking about like what you like that you're worried if someone might judge you for you know an interest that you have and vice versa and then we have a way of you know well i don't want you to think i'm weird so i'm going to say it's weird like i think young couples use the word weird a little too liberally when they're having communication about sex with each other. And it's, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, but it's something I feel like I've noticed with friends

or just in my life or just talking to people and things like that. I completely agree. And I'm so glad you brought it up because it is the other part of the equation, right? So if we're sticking with a heterosexual example here, if he says, if he comes to that experience with a deep sense of curiosity, but I want you to feel good, I want us to do things that feel really good to both of us, talk to me about your sexuality. She may legit be like, listen, I have no idea. And that's because, you know, we have like there's a ton of stigma around female sexuality and female empowerment. So there is a research study where they showed a diagram of like the external female genitalia, like where you would see clitoris and vulva and labia. And they asked college students to name the parts.

One quarter of men could do it and only a half of women can do it. So only a half of college age women can name the parts of their own body. So that how could I, you know, how can I possibly talk to you about what feels good in my body if I have no idea what the parts of my own body are even called. So we're talking about like a very basic, like reclamation process that needs to happen between a woman and her own body. And so that is, you know, even though I'm a relationship therapist, and I, you know, work with couples in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, I am very often talking about like encouraging women to masturbate, right? How could you possibly have a partner please you if you have no idea how to notice and follow a sensation in your own body? So understanding kind of owning your own pleasure has to come before any expectation that your partner can bring you pleasure. What are some things that are conversations or questions that men and women should be

encouraging in a relationship that would, you know, encourage women to kind of take their own power back or, or not be not act in a more kind of traditional stereotypical way where they're just the follower, I guess, so to speak, in a sexual situation where, you know, like you said, like traditionally, it's just like men don't ask questions. They seem to be the instigators or, you know, the guy leads kind of stereotype. What are some things that kind of even the playing field in a relationship that young couples should pay attention to or any couples? Because I'm assuming there's probably a lot of people listening to this who might be married for 20 years and still making the same mistakes or just this is the way they've always

done it. Boy, it's such a really good and thoughtful question. I think part of it is for women to notice when they're saying yes yes but they really like to kind of track resentment I think very often women in relationship will allow resentment to kind of simmer um in the background and they'll keep saying yes or they'll keep agreeing to situations where they where they know darn well that they're going to become more resentful. And so resentment may be a feeling that lives inside of me, but it really is a relationship problem, right? If I'm feeling resentful about our relationship, what it means is there's a piece of my truth that I'm not bringing to you, right? And I may be doing that because I learned in my

family to not rock the boat, and I was the perfect kid. And I was I had no needs of my own. And I learned to people, please. And so I will just keep saying yes to whatever you want, because I think that's what you want from me. I think it's how what a good woman does in a relationship. But the side effect is that I'm growing resentful. And if I'm not letting you know that, it's going to create a rift between us. So I want to be able to come to you and say, hey, Nick, I'm feeling resentful. It's a feeling that lives inside of me, but it's a relationship problem. It means that I'm not being truthful enough with you. There are things that I need to be sharing with you in a deeper way because my resentment doesn't do either of us any good. So that's one part of it. And I think so much of what I experienced, like with when I'm working with men and in my therapy practice, so much of it is for men to take feedback, like when when their partner has feedback for them, first of all, the feedback needs to be offered in a gentle way and in a thoughtful way. But when she's giving you feedback to really view

the feedback as something to lean into rather than block and resist and defend and explain away. That's such a common pattern is male sort of like- Well, I only did this because,, you know, things like that. Yes. This is why I'm justifying. It's interesting that you said that, like how we communicate, because when you say the word resentful, I feel like the word resentful is kind of a trigger word for a lot of people. If it, because like, and you're almost speaking on a granular level, like these little bitty interactions that we have that we almost take for granted in relationships and whether it's, you know, traditionally it seems like more women do this than men.

But if we just kind of go along with things that deep down, we just feel like we're not into that, there's, there's a small resentment there, even though like we might not resent our partner overall, because I feel like a lot of people might be listening to be like, well, I don't resent my partner. I love my partner. And yet we might be over time just saying yes to a bunch of things that we never really liked, you know, and like, it's almost sounds like you're saying that we become subconsciously resentful before we even realize we're resentful. I think it's yes. And so to be conscious of it, I'm thinking about an example from my own marriage. If I've had, you know, a day or a week where I feel like I'm, I'm doing the bulk of the

emotional labor or domestic labor at home, we've got two teenagers and, you know, busy two careers. And so if I feel like I'm carrying the bulk of that and I'm feeling that resentment coming up, like the little, like, you know, pee under the mattress, like the princess and the pea, like I can feel that just kind of grain of resentment creeping up. I'll say to Todd, like, listen, I would love for you to just kind of validate and witness that you can that you see and you appreciate the stuff I've been doing around here. And so I'll just kind of set like, I'll just ask for what I need. And very often 10 times out of 10, all I need is validation. Just I just need to know that he sees what I'm doing.

That idea of validating each other, witnessing each other is like for people to know how to do that cuts relationship distress down by so, so, so much. And so if I'm asking Todd to validate me, can he take that as an opportunity to be a great partner rather than somehow a sign of whatever I'm, I don't know, nagging him or I'm being demanding. Cause really all I'm asking is like, you haven't, he's done nothing wrong. This is just the state of our relationship. I don't, it's just that him witnessing it and validating it is like the medicine that I need to kind of cure and neutralize that resentment. How do you go about doing that in terms of like addressing a situation that's not necessarily anyone's fault? Like, how do you address it without getting anyone defensive?

Because like, the way it's just like, hey, there's a problem. I'm upset. I'm like, how do we say it in a way that doesn't immediately make our partner? Yeah. Because I feel like that happens a lot, even myself. It's just like, especially guys have this like innate, like tendency to try to fix a problem. It's like, oh, you're a problem. Like, okay, what do I do? How do I fix it? I'm result oriented. So like, I just feel like that might be happen a lot. Yes, a lot, a lot, a lot. It's like basically how I spend my whole week with, with the couples that I do therapy with is, is this exact dynamic because it's so much about how we condition men in our culture is that, is that to be a good man is to identify and fix a problem that is

in a relationship there's there's you know research there's a researcher named john gotman his his research team looked at kind of conflict a full 69 of the things that couples fight about are are things that cannot be fixed there's's no solution. It's just reality. It's just personality difference. It's just the dynamic. So most often when there's a problem, it's not that there's a solution that anyone needs to come up with. It's just that someone needs their feelings heard and validated. So for, especially for a man to develop that skill of being able to say, what I'm hearing you say is X. Am I getting that right? And, and in order to be able to do that, which is like medicine for the soul, he has to manage his defensiveness, which shows up as just

the things you're saying, explaining it, rationalizing it, fixing it, minimizing it, saying it wasn't a big deal, saying, yeah, but you did the same thing last week, saying, yeah, but look at all the things I did do. All of that may very well be true, but it's the wrong medicine. The medicine is, here's what I'm hearing you say. Do I have that right? I think it's such a powerful shift for especially a man to make because we're saying not that I mean, women get defensive too. But there is something about how we socialize men around exactly what you're saying around the problem solving that that may work very well in the boardroom or on the, you know, playing field. But when it comes to intimate

partnership, it just doesn't work. Explaining, rationalizing, defending, minimizing, they just don't work in an intimate relationship. What are some of the things that women might be, say, more guilty than men? We have probably more women listening to this than men, but where can we bridge the gap of understanding in terms of ways we can help make our partners more successful? I think we already talked about one of them, which is like people being pleasing rather than being truthful. I think that's a big one. And I think that the other one is I feel like women very often miss how profoundly sensitive

and emotional men are. It's like another, it's the other kind of like rotten side effect of how we socialize men is that men themselves struggle to feel their feelings and then women miss men's feelings. And so women, I think, will say things far more sharply, far more cruelly than they ever ought to,

because of this idea that men don't have feelings or men don't feel things as deeply. And so I feel like that's the female part of it is really being thoughtful and mindful about how you speak to your male partner, if what you want is more intimacy and more emotional availability, then come to him with gentleness, with care and consideration. And imagine I've had women who take a picture of their male partner, like a picture of their male partner as a little boy. And they take that little boy picture and they stick it to their fridge. So they can remember like, inside of my big, strong, tough male partner is this little boy, like this tender, vulnerable, emotional little boy. And he deserves me to speak to him with care and to give him the

benefit of the doubt. Yeah. When you say that, I think of all the girlfriends I've had, and it, it seems to be more socially acceptable for a girlfriend to tell her male partner, more socially acceptable for a girlfriend to tell her male partner, you're an asshole, you're a dick. Um, you know, things like the words like that, where,

uh, and then it's just kind of socially acceptable. And it's just, you know, it's talked about, even the guy will laugh it off and things like that. And yet, you know,

uh, if we hear about a partner and the, and a girl's like, my husband calls me a bitch all the time we're like break up with that toxic asshole and yet it though that it's the same thing it's two people doing the same thing to each other and yet we we allow that kind of behavior to be more socially acceptable from women because yeah it doesn't bother me i'm a guy and things like that but yeah those words over time you're just like i don't i would really love for you to not call me an asshole every day just

because you're mad. That's right. I, I could not agree more because then it's sort of like, if it's, if it's par for the course for me to call you an asshole, then how can I fault you when you respond to me defensively? Right. Yeah. Cause the first thing I want to just, the first thing I want to defend is that I'm not an asshole. I'm not worried about what you're upset about now. I just want to point out that I'm not an asshole. That's the only thing I'm thinking about. I've immediately stopped thinking about what I did to make you upset. I'm defending the accusation of being a dick or an asshole or a jerk or whatever. The thing I hear over and over again is that women crave for their male partners to be

emotionally available. And if that's something that women want, and I want women to want that, then they need to be responsible for the ways in which they are cultivating an atmosphere of emotional availability. And that's by all the things that we're saying, by just sort of giving a male, like just the biggest thing here is distinguishing the behavior from the person right so rather than saying you know you're an asshole it's when you did this in this situation i felt really dismissed i felt really disrespected i felt

really sad i felt really unseen that's very different than saying you're an asshole, right? When you did this behavior in this situation, I felt really hurt. If I frame it like that, I am much more likely to get you to get the thing I want from you, which is your empathy, your validation, your apology, your witnessing, I'm much more likely to get it from you. You know, you're obviously so much about what you talk about and teach is sex positivity and going against shame and things like that. Obviously, in the news recently, Ari Hammer has been a big talking point. I don't know if you follow that story at all. And I don't know too much about it, but a lot of it seems to be this discussion around his sexual preferences and they seem to be extreme. But at the same time, I'm just like, like kinks, kinks that we all have. And where do,

you know, how do couples have open discussions around, I guess, for lack of a better word, their kinks? And then how do we, you know, a lot of this, you know, Ari Hammer story is just like, where do we draw the lines? You know, what happens if a partner we're dating has a kink that we're not into, you know, and let's take out the cannibalism out of it, you know, in terms of what he's, but just like, that's, that's aggressive. But how do we, let's say we were dating someone who seems to be very sexual and likes talking about things, where do we draw the line without and knowing maybe this isn't for us and we're moving ourselves from our environment versus, you know, hearing something that our partner's into, never having heard that before. And maybe it sounds weird at first just because it's new, but not being afraid

to explore. You know what I'm saying? Kind of the nuance of talking about different kinks and interests that we have in relationships. This is a huge topic. And I'm so glad that you brought it up. And I think that the, that example in the recent with Arnie Hammer, I think there is a very, I think what's so beautiful about sex positivity is we are making more and more space within ourselves, within our relationship, within the larger cultural conversation, we're making more space for the incredible diversity and imagination that all of our sexualities have. So there's something so beautiful and freeing and healing about that. And we have to be mindful that it's, that it doesn't mean that anything goes right. It doesn't mean anything goes. And we have to be mindful that it's that it doesn't mean that anything goes, right? It doesn't mean anything goes. And there are actual, you know, paraphilia, like there are actual, like sexual,

problematic sexual behaviors that are that are clinical in nature, right? And so there are shades of gray and nuance there. And of course, everything has to be on a, you know, obviously a profound understanding of like consent, right? Consent and agreement. And I think it's the, I think it's a reminder of how important, like when we talk about kinks, you know, a kink is something that just merely is transgressive or edgy. And so what, what may in my own, in my own sexuality, what made to me feel like a kink may feel to you quite ordinary. So there's also, you know, different ways that we define sort of what are the outer edges of our comfort. And there can be something incredibly enlivening about playing with the outer edge of our own comfort because it keeps us sort of present. And it feels like ways that we're honoring like our imagination. But it's so complicated, then for two people to come together and navigate similarity and difference, there are going to be differences. And I think especially if what

we're talking about is like a very casual first time situation, it's entirely too much to expect a brand new relationship, or a casual relationship to be able to handle something as vulnerable as a kink, and a deep understanding of where does that kink come from for you? What does it mean to you? How can I meet it in a way that helps us both feel safe. And so I think that in a solid relationship, there are ways that couples over time can start to open those doors. And it requires conversation and requires safe words. And it requires boundaries and parameters. And it requires both people to be able to say, I love you. And I'm a really clear no on that. And you can tell me how you feel about that. We can talk about it. But that's not, you know, my no on that one particular behavior. It's not the sum total

of our relationship. So I validate that this is a kink for you. I stand clear in my no. And I invite us to look at this full menu of options that we have. Let's focus on what we do have on the table for us to enjoy, rather than getting hyper focused on this one. No, because much of adulthood is tolerating no's, right? There just are lots of things that when we commit to a relationship, you know, they just become no's, they're just off the table. And so part of it is just being able to sometimes tolerate a no. And sometimes it's about stretching from a maybe to a yes. So it's just all about communication, conversation, and figuring out what is our leading edge as a couple.

But what are your – okay, go. What are your thoughts? I just went on and on about that. No, I mean, you're the expert. I think – I mean, my interest in having you on, maybe it's my own vanity, is like a lot of the things that you talk about and say, I'm like, totally agree with. And I feel like it makes a lot of sense and topics I like to learn more about. I'm actually curious, without putting you on the spot, it's fine if there's no, we can move on. Do you have any thoughts or

opinions on how much you know about that Ari Hammer story, just because it seems to be captivating pop culture and everyone's talking about it. I mean, there is the just the scandalous nature of it. But I in these types of situations, I always like thinking, what's the takeaway? What can we learn from it? Like what is, you know, things like that. So I was just wondering, are there any thoughts you have on this? And how much have you followed the story, just being someone in your field? So I have expertise around love and sex. I don't have expertise around kink and paraphilias. That's a particular kind of expertise. So I don't want to say a whole lot. I know what my body felt like as I read the screenshots. I know that I worry tremendously. as I read the screen, the screenshots. I know. Yeah.

I know that I worry tremendously. I think it's part of the responsibility of being somebody who is, you know, I think about the kind of factors that come together, the fact that he's a man, the fact that he is a celebrity. There's a tremendous amount of power in that positionality. And when we are the one in the relationship with more power, it is our responsibility to make sure that we are deeply attuned to our partner, right? So deeply attuned to saying like, hey, how is this for you? Like when I say this, how does it land for you?

And I suspect that he has no ability or interest in doing that. Right. And really checking in a, in a deeply emotional way and an attuned way, checking in and saying, how, how do you feel as I say that? I don't think he's doing that. I love how you talk about power. Right. And I feel like it's something that couples don't discuss a lot. Right. You know, how do we, how do you handle a relationship situation where, you know, talk about like alpha and beta and things like that. But, you know, if you're dating someone who identifies himself as an alpha,

is that okay to just always assume that person has the power to navigate a relationship? And how, as a couple, do you, as you, I'm assuming you just say, just communicate, just constantly check in, being self-aware that you might have this power. And if you do, how do you as you i'm assuming you just say just communicate just constantly check in being self-aware that you might have this power and if you do how do you allow your partner to have more power and how do you shift it and how do you you know do things like that where it's just like because i've been in those situations too where it's just like i feel like i don't want

you know for me i i don't like having all the power in a relationship. You know, I, I, it just makes me feel uncomfortable. Um, but not, I don't think everyone feels that way. Well, I think, I think we'd be, I think we'd be hard pressed to find a situation where across the board in every domain, this person is always the alpha and this one's always the beta. I, I suspect that that's impossible. There are too many nuances and too many intersections, right? So when, so if we just

think about sort of like identity variables that like, let's think about if there is, if we're talking about like a same sex male couple and one is black and one is white. So they, so they both occupy positions of, you know, marginality around sexuality. They both are part of a sexual minority. And the black man occupies a marginalized identity around race. And the white man occupies, you know, he has more power because he's white, right? That's the dynamic. But let's say the black man has his PhD, and the white man, you know, has his GED. Okay, now the black man is more powerful around matters of education.

And let's say, you can just kind of take it right down to the bone. Let's say the white man is more extroverted and so he has more power around their social lives. And so there's just too many domains where it's cultural power, it's whatever you and I decide as power, it's personality-based power. It's whatever you and I decide is power. It's personality-based power.

It's too complicated to ever say, listen, what I want is for you always to be the alpha and I'm always the beta. It just isn't going to happen. And power isn't bad. It's not a bad thing to be more powerful. It just is in a moment when I am aware that my power is in the driver's seat, it's, as I said before, it's my responsibility to just be attuned to you and check in with you. And, and that I would want the same in response. And it's, it's why I have learned so much from learning from people who are

deeply invested in the kink community and the BDSM community, because in those communities, conversations about power exchange, being really conscious about who's in power. And when I'm in power, here's how I'm going to check in with you. And here's the words we're going to use. Like, I love, I love learning from those communities where there has been so much intentionality around power and it applies to even couples who aren't practicing kink and even outside of the bedroom right down to who am i going to move to your town are you moving to my town am i um you know are we ordering uh asian food tonight are we ordering pizza tonight you know like all those ways like

power comes up over and over and over again. Totally. It's interesting you say that because, you know, we've on this show, we've talked about open relationships and kinks and things like that. And it's sometimes it's, there seems to be like this norm with people who are in these communities that you just talked about, right? You know, there's almost a surprising level of communication and honesty and healthiness in the relationship. You're like, wait, you would think that would be the opposite. But for the people who are more

into, say, traditional relationships of monogamy, how can we take from these communities who have this very high sense of communication and checking in and focus on power dynamics, but they just want a normal monogamous relationship and yet pull from some of these things that these communities are doing. Great point. I think it's exactly why it's so important that we have representation. So I love that on your podcast, you have people who are coming in and talking about that because as they tell their stories about how they navigate power dynamics and boundaries, there are there are really rich nuggets for people to take into even a sexually monogamous heterosexual relationship, I want every single couple to be talking explicitly, right off the bat about who are we

to each other, right? This is, we were talking before about like mistakes that young couples make, or people early in relationship make. Another one, I think, is not defining the boundary around who we are, right? Because then it may be that I cross a line. But I didn't even know there was a line there, because we didn't talk about it. So I think there's gonna be a lot of hesitation about like that define the relationship conversation, right? Like it's so heavy and I don't want to bring it up and I just want to be chill and play it cool. But when we allow there to be a lack of clarity or no conscious boundaries, we set ourselves up to be hurt or to hurt somebody else. So I think one of the things that we can take away from the open

community or the kink community is just being very explicit about what our ground rules are. And those conversations don't have, I mean, I think they are, I was going to say they don't have to be heavy, but I think they can be heavy and intimacy promoting, right? So heavy conversations, honest conversations, courageous conversations create the conditions for intimacy. So it's not like it's, I think people like feel like, if we have to talk about, you know, are you in touch with your ex? And how do I feel about that? We have to have those conversations, somehow, we must not be right for each other. I disagree with that 100%. It's those conversations that create the safety and the agreements that fuel intimacy, that fuel trust, that fuel play and pleasure and vulnerability, all the things that relationships need in order to feel really, really good to both

people. I'm curious, do you, in like a hookup culture and just knowing that such a low percentage of couples the first time they hook up don't climax, do you have an opinion on like one night stands or hooking up on the first date? Is that something that you advise against? Or is it more like, hey, if you do that fine, but just know the situation you're, you know, limit your expectations almost. I would want the person who's

going into a one night stand to check in with themselves first. Why am I doing this? And if the, why, and there are, there may be times where a one night stand is just what the doctor ordered, may be times where a one night stand is just what the doctor ordered, right? It may be like I'm coming out of a relationship, or I, I have this like sense of adventure. And so if, if, if I can guarantee if I can be safe, like, like physically, you know, safe, and, and sober enough to be noticing that the other thing I worry about with one night stands is if it's a one night stand that's paired with a lot of alcohol, I worry a ton about consent and communication and safety. But I think there are situations where a one night stand is can feel really healing for somebody like you can feel like a reclamation, perhaps. But again, it's hard to imagine it going well, until and unless the two

people have talked about like, what are we imagining? What are we envisioning? And again, like, I think we have this romantic idea that good sex is just two people falling in bed together. And there's no need to communicate because it's just like in a place so far beyond words. And that's a romanticized idea. Good sex is actually that two people have a really clear understanding of, not like at minute one, here's what we're doing in minute five, not like that,

but just a shared foundation of what the playground is, you know, how big the playground is, what's in it, what's not in it. And that's having that basic safety is what allows the good good stuff to come which is the spontaneity the play and the expression yeah it almost sounds like there's two different um things we should think about in a in a hookup is like why are we doing this like you said like what what why are we choosing to do this are we like maybe it's liberating and we just got out

of a breakup or are we doing it because we want that person to like us and we're afraid if we don't hook up, they won't. And then the other thing is like, what are our expectations of the situations? What do we hope to get out of it? Like, if it's just a liberating feeling, maybe that's all we want to hope to get out of it. If it's getting the best orgasm of our life, maybe we should set our expectations more realistically. of our life, maybe we should set our expectations more realistically. Exactly. Right. I also, you know, I've heard from so many men that, um, that hookup sex is really challenging for them too, around getting and maintaining erections during hookup sex, which makes a hundred percent sense. I have a friend of mine who said it took me a bunch of really crappy hookups to realize that there was a direct line from my penis to my heart.

And that when I'm in a hookup, my penis is not particularly cooperative because it's connected to my heart and I don't feel emotionally safe. There's definitely, I mean, we've talked about a little bit on the show, but the stereotypes that men, well, there's a lot of stereotypes, obviously, as we already talked about, but the stereotype of guys, it's easy to climax. They always get off. They always want it. If a guy doesn't climax, there's a perception that women seem to have is,

it's my fault. What did I do wrong? He's just not into me, et cetera, et cetera. And that's just, in my experience, not the case. I mean, there's, like like you said in a hookup situation a lot of guys are thinking about a million things too like should i be doing this are we using a condom i don't know like all like is this safe does she like me uh am i doing it right you know is she is she faking it you know like wow this she seems to be having a good time i've thought

about that it's just like there's no way you know like i remember having sex one time in an early dating situation and within minutes she was saying how she was coming and i'm like there's it's not possible i'm not that great you know like i just knew she was faking it you know and it was just like i i i couldn't i couldn't like my head was just in a weird headspace from that point on, right? There was no way I was going to climax because like, all I could think about is how I didn't believe her. And yet, you know, so often I think there's a lot of young couples who fight because he didn't finish or, or he he's masturbating and why isn't he having sex with me instead, et cetera, et cetera. A hundred percent. I think that our, I think our stereotypes about male sexuality

suck and they, I think create a ton of heartbreak for men that then the sad thing is, is that men, I mean, I think some men are able to turn to their friends and say, Oh my God, you would not believe this experience I had last night and share a vulnerable, raw, tender story. But I think that, you know, a lot of men don't feel like they can talk about those experiences that may feel a bit shameful, a bit embarrassing, a bit tender. They don't, they don't feel like anybody can hear those stories. And that makes me feel really sad. I, um, yeah, it's just always, always, we blame it on whiskey. Uh, it's, it's the alcohol. I can't, you know, because it's just like, I don't know, I'm stressed out. You know, I'm, I have anxiety. I mean, I've had sex with

anxiety before, you know, and it's usually with people who I don't have a connection with, you know, or I'm, I'm just wondering, you know, yeah, I'm just not present, I guess is the most common thing. Well, and I can imagine how much pressure it feels as you're saying, because, because when I'm, if, and when a man loses his erection, he has his own feelings about, about that, you know, fear, embarrassment, sadness, whatever. And then he knows darn well that she's having feelings about it. And so there's a lot of feelings in the room about one part of his body. So I oftentimes will say that it's so sad to me when we reduce male sexuality to just what's happening with the penis.

But heterosexual sex is basically like a narrative arc. It's a sequence of events that tracks along with what's happening with his penis, which is so silly because a man's entire body is a source of pleasure and a receiver of pleasure. So it's so silly and tragic that everybody in the room, you know, is paying attention to what's happening with his dick when there's so much more, you know, his whole body can be a source of pleasure. And in fact, if you want to go to the science, penetrative sex for women or vulva body people, penetrative sex is the least orgasm producing kind of sex anyway. So his penis is not super important if we're talking about what's going to get her off. And so how liberating would it be? It's probably so hard for men to hear that. Yeah. But if he could just let his penis do whatever the hell it wants.

Your dick is just not that important. It's not that important. It's lovely. It is lovely, but it's just not, it doesn't need to be the sum total of everything. I just really have to process that revelation. I'm just kidding. What are some things, it's a common question,

and I'm sure I'll always be asking it forever, but in long-term relationships or marriage that I guess feel stale or boring, how do couples keep things fresh, spicy, whether it's in the bedroom, that's a very common one. But I also feel like just the regularity of relationships in general will play a role in how sex is, you know, things inside the bedroom. And if you feel like you're in a rut with your partner, how are some ways to get out of it? I think the first thing is to not panic. You know, I think because oftentimes what happens is when things feel stale, the story I tell myself about the staleness is either something's

wrong with you, or something's wrong with me, or something's wrong with us. And now it's all downhill from here. So the first thing I have to do is just not panic, which is why it's a really important message that I give all the time, which is that, that, that romance, we have a very romanticized idea that love is always exciting, always fresh. We always have butterflies in our tummies and to really normalize that that isn't the case. And that, and that relationships have chapters and they have ebbs and flows and that's really normal. And so when you are in what'd you call it? A dry spell? A rut. When we're in a rut, to really meet that as a relationship challenge, rather than an indicator that anything's wrong with anybody. And to say to a partner, like, oh my gosh, what, are you feeling a little bit,

you know, flat? I'm feeling kind of flat. Like we're a little bit flat these days. Like just to really normalize it and to just name it, rather than making it anybody's fault, it's nobody's fault. And then can either one take the lead on what might be a bit creative, or playful, or imaginative, which doesn't have to be, you know, it might be something kink, that might be kind of fun to play. But it might just be that we do something different. We, you know, whatever, read a book together, take a class together, take, it's really hard during this time of COVID, which I think does, there is something about all of the days sort of running together and there being very limits in what we can do. can do. But what we always have is our imagination. And so what are the ways in which we could play with our imaginations and our creativity to keep things fresh and to just stay engaged with each other? Because that's, that's a part of it, too, like just to stay curious about our partners, like to take as a premise that we will never ever fully know our partner because we can't and because they keep

changing and so if we bring that beginner's mind to the relationship and just stay really curious about them then you don't have to get bored you know you don't have to there's always a question you can ask there's always um a conversation you haven't had yet there's always something you haven't experienced together. So to just kind of keep that attitude, I think is important. Yeah. I like that idea that you're always need to be mindful that we have to keep getting to know our partners no matter how long we've been dating. Because I think also it just, for me, I'm just thinking out loud, but just to have a partner acknowledge that I'm evolving sounds refreshing because no one likes to be minimized, be like,

I know you so well, of course you do this. It always feels like, you know, people don't like, even with their partners to be minimized as predictable or ordinary or regular. And so just the idea that you're checking in on, you know, that they might be into something new or you're just, you ask them a question and it makes, I think it makes people feel interesting. And I think everyone likes to feel interesting rather than predictable.

I love that. You're right. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I, we are always evolving. And I think the other thing that happens is when is in a relationship, the evolution can feel scary, right? Well, you're different now. Like you didn't used to do that.

And so it can, sometimes I think my investment in telling you that you're predictable, maybe in part, my desire to have you be predictable because I'm scared of, I'm scared of losing you, right? If you do evolve, what if you evolve away from me? So can I meet your evolution with curiosity? And can I like step into it, rather than being scared of it, or diminishing it or minimizing it, you are in your evolution might stir something up in me, right? It may be whatever you now have a different kind of fitness plan and you're eating differently and it may create in me an anxiety of like are you judging me and should i be doing something different so there's all these layers that um that it may actually be safer just to say oh you're just the same i know you so well you're so predictable because if we

start to look at evolution it can be a bit scary. What are your thoughts on, on pornography in a relationship? And are there degrees in which it could be incorporated in an art or are there degrees in which it can be harmful? Yes. The answer is yes. You know, we as a field, like I can go to one mental health conference and go to a talk about how dangerous and awful porn is, and then go to another talk about how wonderful porn is. So we as a field of mental health practitioners, couples therapists, we don't have agreement. So how the hell can we expect couples to have agreement? And the truth is that it's a topic that's far too complicated to fit neatly into a box of porn is good or porn is bad, which is so often, you know, so often we want to have a shortcut or like a binary answer and we just can't. And so it's another topic that I want couples to know how to have conversations. Well, yeah, that's what I was going to say. So just like a scenario where husband and wife, wife notices or catches her husband

watching a lot of porn to the point where she feels like he enjoys masturbating, watching porn more than he enjoys having sex with her. What's the maybe ideas or things for her to approach that situation where she can get some answers and he doesn't immediately feel defensive where they could have a productive conversation around this situation? Because I feel like a lot of times it goes right to the, this is bad. This is wrong. People say it's hard. You know, there there's a communication style that seems to get, again, as we've talked about so much in other topics, gets people defensive right away,

rather than having a productive conversation. You're right. And it's a, it's a basically a hundred percent guarantee that if she comes to him and says, you're a pervert, you are wrong. You know, everyone says porn is bad for a relationship. Stop it. It's a guarantee that he's going to be defensive because what's being triggered is shame. I think the thing that, the thing that I am learning is that I think especially for men, although certainly it's the case for people of all genders, I think for men, there is something really,

there can be something very, very old for them about their relationship with pornography that precedes and predates their dating life. And so that porn may have entered their realm at a time when it was originally used as a mechanism for self-soothing more than anything else. Especially nowadays, right? I mean, because now it's so readily available. Like, even when I was younger younger you couldn't find porn that easily but now i mean if i was 18 now fuck i can't imagine you know like it would guys are must be all horned up like crazy these days it's just too easy to find well i think what's happening is that is that guys are merging self-soothing with masturbation so that they're only have one self-soothing tool and it's masturbation with porn i'm so stressed i'm so stressed and so

and so then when she so so she and that's in this scenario we're playing out she feels incredibly confronted and she feels hurt and she feels like it's a rejection of her. And what she's missing is, it is so much bigger and older than her. And so two things have to be held at once her pain and his relationship with porn. And that's a really that's I think it's a it's a question I love for couples to bring to a couples therapist. Because both those things need to be held, you need a third person in the room who can hold on to both those pieces, because it's. You need a third person in the room who can hold on to both those pieces because it's really hard because it's so tender, because it's so emotional. It's easy for the couple, as you're saying, to get into this attack-defend cycle.

And so it's incumbent upon her to approach him with curiosity and to own her pain as her own. Like the story I tell myself when I know you're jacking off to porn is that you don't like my body. It's because I've gained a bit of pandemic weight. It's because I don't look like a porn star. It's because I don't sound like a porn star. Those are the stories I tell myself and that he can say, Oh my God, honey, I do not want you to feel that way. I love our lovemaking.

It is wholly different. Here's what my porn use is about for me. So porn gets in the way when it is a replacement for sex, right? In your situation, it does sound like it's problematic because in your imagined situation, you're saying he's not sexually engaged with her. Well, I don't even know, because like sometimes I feel like, you know, in some situations, like just doing it, watching porn once, let's say he gets caught a couple of times. The woman in the scenario kind of goes down the path you just described like it's they create this like fear like this

oh my god it must mean this it must mean that like there are these kind of extreme thoughts right and and like you said especially and i'm just thinking like if it is a soothing thing he's just stressed out he's just like maybe it's just like literally like a way that he deals with anxiety uh because like sometimes again for guys this what's i don't think is often appreciated that sex as is can be stressful for guys too especially for guys who want to be you know good lovers and they want to you know guys who give a shit you know guys who like take pride in like i want my my girlfriend to orgasm. I want to ask her questions. I want her to get off. And yet maybe sometimes she doesn't sometimes, or, or because you feel stressed out,

stress can be very stressful for guys, which is sometimes why they're just like, I'm just gonna jerk off. It's just like, I'm done in five minutes. I it's less tiring. I don't think about anyone but myself and that's why I'm doing it. Um, yeah. Dr. Anneke Vandenbroek Yes. I think in the healthiest relationship, there's space for all of that. There's a way in which she can say, of course, you sometimes need that. Of course, there's a part of your sexuality that I don't have to be involved with. Of course, you have a private life that isn't a threat to our relationship. And I think that's where I want couples to get. And I think it requires exactly what you're saying,

Dick, which I think is so important, which is for a man to be able to be honest about, listen, when I'm with you, I'm with you and I love it and it's meaningful. It also, I put a ton of pressure on myself to be exactly who you need me to be. And I'm really scared of letting you down. And if there's one thing I've learned from 20 years of couples therapy, what matters so much to a man is how he looks in his partner's eyes, right? How she sees him, how she perceives him. I have experienced again and again, men who are so deeply afraid of being a disappointment

to their partner. And if that's what sex has become, then of course, jerking off to porn is going to feel hella easier because you don't even have to confront that fear of being a disappointment, which is acutely painful. And that's the conversation right there, right? And that conversation is a gold mine. And it's about eight layers deeper than a conversation about, you know, porn is bad or porn is good. I do think I will say I do think that a lot of mainstream free streaming porn right now is pretty toxic around what it shows about gender dynamics. So I really do encourage all of us of all genders to be thoughtful about what we consume and to, you know, make sure we're choosing ethical porn and

feminist porn and porn that's behind a paywall, where we know that the performers have been paid well and treated well. And when there's some care, and there are like the new book I published has like a resource guide in the back where my team and I researched really great high quality ethical feminist porn sites. So I do think there's something about like just the way that we are thoughtful about, you know, making sure we have grass fed ground beef when we can or like we're thoughtful about all the things we consume to be thoughtful about the erotica that we consume, I think makes good sense. You know, that makes a ton of sense. I can't thank you enough for joining us. It's such an interesting conversation and fun to get your wisdom on something that you've been studying for so long. Where can our listeners find you if they want to learn more information

or even take your online courses? The easiest place is my website, which is dralexandrasolomon.com. Awesome. And I'm active on social media. I'm on Instagram just about every day, is dralexandrasolomon.com. Awesome. And I'm active on social media. I'm on Instagram just about every day, dr.alexandra.solomon. It's a great place as well. Yeah, we didn't even get a chance to talk about apologizing, which I know you've had some cool posts on your social about the differences in apologizing and what we're really saying versus what maybe the person's hearing when we're apologizing. But be sure to check out our Instagram for some more great information.

Can't thank you enough, Dr. Solomon, for taking the time to speak with us today. It's been a ton of fun. It was so good to be with you. Thanks, Nick. Awesome. Thanks so much. And thanks, guys, for tuning in. As always, don't forget to send your questions at asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K. We appreciate, obviously, your reviews and your five stars. We only appreciate five stars. So if you want me to appreciate you, I'm telling you what to do. Anywho, can't thank you enough.

We'll be back on Monday. And until then, have a great day. you