The Viall Files - E25 Laughing In The Face of Rejection with Jackie Tohn

Episode Date: June 19, 2019

This week we are joined by the crazy-talented Jackie Tohn from Netflix’ GLOW to talk about persistence in the face of rejection. We discuss that frustrating Bachelorette episode that separated the woman from the boys, Jackie spills some GLOW tea, and we dive into the diagnosis of “malignant narcissism.” Then we take a call from a fan that really resonated with Jackie and Sug. Learn to say what you need, get deep if she wants to get deep, and break tiny shoulders. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode! Thanks to our sponsors: BETTERHELP: https://www.betterhelp.com/viall CODE: VIALL ROTHYS: https://rothys.com/viall LET’S BLOW JACKIE TOHN’S INSTAGRAM UP! https://www.instagram.com/jackietohn/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Well hello everyone welcome to another episode of vile files i'm your host nick we have shug here oh so excited to be here for usual i decided to take vacation rochelle what a mystery that one is uh so where is she not with us today we don't know where Rochelle is. She didn't tell us. She's out of town. I didn't ask where she was, but she is on vacation. She landed somewhere. Somewhere. She didn't say where.

Making sure that this ship is setting sail smoothly. So she's still with us spiritually. Yes. Emotionally. But not here today. We'll have to press on without her. Yes. But are we ever going to miss that voice and those opinions? But,

and especially with our guests today, because I feel like these two would banter, but we're going to have to handle it. Well, our, our, our guest is here today because of Rochelle. Rochelle booked our,

our lovely guest, Jackie Tone, which I'm realizing now that I like just, she's right here do people like saying your full name it's a you know how sometimes like a full name is better than the jackie tone jackie tone jackie tone you know jackie tone hi i'm jackie tone some people have full names that are just fun to say so you always i i i didn't grow up with him but a friend in milwaukee john marshall john marshall great jackie tom was always john marshall you know john john paul jones you know like names like that

john paul jones well when you have three first names jones sure paul john but some people have the the full names that are just you always want to say i don't have one you really don't no no i really avoid saying your last name. I'll be honest. Yeah, Viall. Nick, see, I want to say Viall, but that's not it. And then I want to say Viall, but is that it? Well, Ginger, when we had Ginger on, she changed her last name to Z.

It's Zgoo, something like that. And the whole time I'm listening to her book, I'm like, it's a little harder when you're a guy because there's this idea you're supposed to carry the family name. And I'm proud to come from the family I came from. But is it like a dick move to be like, listen, no one can say my name.

And it's not, it doesn't ring. So maybe we adjust it. I'm so curious what you would choose. Probably just V. Nicky Tone. Nicky Tone.. Probably just V. Nicky Tone. Nicky Tone. Nicky Tone. Nicky Tone.

Nicky Tone. I mean, I am very jealous of... My last name? I did. I did. I gave him your last name. Listen, we don't know what's going to happen on this show. You know?

How about we just start this little interview with Jackie? We were going to recap The Bachelor without Jackie because Jackie has not ever seen The Bachelor or The Bachelorette until this episode. She decided to watch it. Yes. She told us she has a lot to say. She did not told us. She burst through the door saying, oh, I am heated. I watched it.

I am ready. So we're going to talk to Jackie about a lot of things, but we're going to include Jackie in our quick Bachelorette recap of this episode, which we agree was fantastic. And as no surprise, Jackie has a lot to say, as we all do. I know. I mean, not only was this episode fantastic, but I was screaming excited for what's coming up. Oh, yeah.

There's a ring. There's yelling. Very exciting. Luke P. just's a ring. There's yelling. Very exciting. Luke P just keeps sounding worse. I know, but there really was a moment during the episode. I just can't. I just can't wait. Yes, I'll wait.

All right. Well, let's hurry it up. Let's get Jackie in here. Hi, welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me. So excited to have you here. First of all, before we get into The Bachelor stuff, I know we're all itching.

You're sweating already, just your hands. I can see it, the heat, the anger. Just as a woman who's had some, I'm not sweating. I look nice, I'm not sweating, and my hands are dry. My hands are dry as fuck. I was like, wow, how rude of you, Shug. And I'm saying this out of love, you look like a giant horse. But I'm saying that above you look like a giant horse, but I'm saying that to be cute.

Like, listen, I'm just trying to get the people to tune in on the YouTube so they can check if you're sweating. If I'm a horse, I'm sweating guys. Tune in. My hands are soaking.

I haven't decided if I want people to watch or just listen because I do care. iTunes is like people. It's like where, where people go to like judge you on the quality. Everything is where people go to judge you. That's true. But it is available on YouTube.

It is. And I want them to see the beautiful faces that are sitting here today. You can do the coffee stain. Okay. You know what? Turn on YouTube. But it was one of those things that if you didn't point it out, no one would have noticed. Right.

And now it's all I see. It's the story of my entire life. isn't my voice weird yeah it's out there but it is now it is now yeah i wouldn't have had to my whole life is pointing out things i shouldn't have 100 i'm very similar that way sometimes yeah anyways jackie thanks for coming thanks for having me jackie is a accomplished person in general. Huh? Just, yeah. Okay, sure.

Right? You're talented. Well, I mean, you are in a very successful, on, in. I guess you're in it. You're on it. You're on a very successful show. I'm inside glow. Yeah, you're deep inside glow.

She plays, is it? Melanie. Melanie. Melissa. That's okay. Whatever. On glow. But it's Melrose.

Melrose. Yeah, the character is just Melrose. Melanie Rose. Yeah. And then they it's Melrose Melrose yeah the character is just Melrose Melanie Rose yeah people often well actually was it written that way

or did you like I love that you're asking that because it's actually even one step better when I auditioned it was Melanie Rose but when I got it they changed it

to Melanie Rosen because you couldn't kick the Judaism out of your girl. They were like, oh, she's Judy. They're like, we can't ignore this. We can't. There's going to be a mezuzah on her hotel room door, and there is. And there's a scene where I hang it.

Wow. They were like, I went in, and I think initially she was sort of more of a Paris Hilton party girl, like Melrose, and she's just trying to fuck and do coke and have a good time, obviously covering up for all of the insecurities and how terrible she feels about herself. And they change it to Melanie Rosen.

And then you came in the room with your magic. They're like, oh, this girl will do anything, and this is a Rosen. And you truly, your character, you do a lot of stuff. I do a lot. You do a lot of stuff. The en a lot. You do a lot of stuff. The enema thing. The enema.

I know. The enema thing. And season three, coming out August 9th on Netflix. It's so exciting. Is, I just watched the first six. They send them to, I mean, Haya Kapada. Oh, please, can you give us any tidbits? No.

Nothing? You can't? Well, only that we're in Vegas. Oh, well. Yeah that we're in Vegas. Oh, well. Yeah, we're in Vegas. So season one was like getting this ragtag group of misfits together. Season two was the making of the show, the series, the first season. And season three, in season two, they get canceled.

And then in season three, they do a live show in Vegas. And it's sort of what happens to this group of crazy women when they have to do the same thing over and over. In the City of Sin, too. In the City of Sin. Ooh, that sounds exciting. It's really cool. I just, I mean, I don't write it so I can, I just think it's one of the best written shows on television. And I just can't believe I'm on it.

It's doing very well. And the reviews are spectacular. And people are talking about it, which has got to be exciting for you. That's crazy. For those of you who don't know Jackie, she was once on American Idol. I know you two with your reality show background. Which I have an affinity for in the sense that I'm out here. I've done some acting i'm hustling i'm

trying to but you've you've made that transition from now american is a little different because you come in with a talent as opposed to the bachelor where it's like you know these are people who are talentless and they're trying you know the but objectively attractive humans trying to do a thing yeah but you come in with an actual talent of singing but yet but you're right i mean reality to transition to a working actor on a hit show you are an inspiration to me hey thanks but i but i want to know is this something that you do you look back on your kind of career and with a sense of pride being like a lot of people have tried to do what i'm

doing with very little success i mean there have been some people in american idol with but like i should stop you because the trick up my sleeve is i've been acting since i was nine so this isn't like it is the actual opposite i did American Idol as a departure from what was already a 20-year acting career. So you were trying to get out. I wasn't even trying to get out. Imagine just me scraping at the horror movie walls. I wasn't trying to get out as much as I truly had. I was defeated.

I felt defeated. I wasn't like down and out but i really was like i mean i have friends who've been trying to act for four or five years and they're just like dude i don't know if i can do it anymore and it's just like i thought that after 20 years like i started when i was nine it's like my entire childhood i did a couple episodes of the nanny i was on sesame street like i was a true kid actor yeah and my character's name was evan so you want to talk about gender fluidity in 1990 something? God bless us all.

I'm going to go back and Google that. Yeah. It was me pogo sticking with Big Bird. It's fine. Snuffy was my homie. Guys, what I'm saying is I've been in the game for a hot minute. And so by the time, and I've always been making music. My dad's a musician.

So I was a singer, songwriter. And then I tried out for American Idol. And what's funny is i was like old for it like even then when you were 28 and it's like that's the oldest like now i'm watching the show and i'm watching this season late and these kids that are 16 years old yeah phenomenal prodigies all of them and they're all 16 and it's like the internet has made it so learning is so accessible without, you know, official lessons. And just it's crazy.

Like, and they're beautiful because little kids know how to do their makeup now. I mean, yeah, they're like, no, these little kids aren't little kids. And so when I did the show, I was like in the last, I think, last year you were able to do good. I got in the top 24, but it was like a weird season because oh no top 36 but then they sent 24 people home in one week so we made right it was the only season they ever did that yeah that's and so like the odds that you were gonna and I was primed to I think I don't know if you can relate to this but when I was on the show you have this feeling from the producers and the vibe and everybody's like

Paula Abdul like went on Leno and they're like who's your favorite contestant she's like I can't say but I love Jackie Tone and it was like oh I'm gonna she said this on J-Lo yeah I was like oh I'm gonna you're like that's it I'm going to the end no like I'm gonna be on this motherfucker yeah for sure but I and I made the top so I was like

in the New York auditions they there was a hundred and five000 people tried out that year and then in New York audition there was like 20,000 people and they showed three of the auditions one was me then in Hollywood week they showed every single one of my rounds and then I made it to the top 36 I was in like the obviously making it group with like Adam Lambert and people in that Adam Lambert was on your season yeah in that room where they're like okay this room is gonna make it this room's right we're all like looking around going like okay duh then i made it and then i got eliminated you quicker than you can say the word

immediately i was packing my bags and it was like ah such a gut punch even though i had dealt with so much rejection over the course of my life, having acted for 20 years prior, I was like, oh, this is a weird, this is a special beast. Yeah, you're like, I'm seeing all those little tiny signs of Paula saying that. And like, you're in with the right people. Enormous signs. Yeah. Like, you can't look past these.

My guess is that Paula, I mean, Paula saying that on Leno, that's not like a producer plan. No, no. That's a genuine thing. Like it erupted out of her, but she was like, oh, my favorite. That's great.

But Paula was a judge, not necessarily a producer, so that's not necessarily Paula's call as much as... But I just mean even like it's the producers making the show, and when they have 18,000 people to weed through,

and they show three, you're like, oh, okay. Cool, cool, cool. Then that continued and I was like, yeah, yeah. And as a person who'd been in this business for so long, I was already coming, I was in a place in my life where I came into experiences, and this is kind of shitty, but I came into experiences with a negative.

I was like, not gonna get it, it's not gonna happen because it was so disappointing every time it didn't happen that if i primed myself for the negativity if i got it i was like woohoo and then if i didn't get it i was like yeah i didn't think so anyway can't get me down are you glad though looking back kind of like oh everything i don't believe everything happens for a reason but like only being top 36 and now that you have the you're you're like i don't think it would but you're if you've gone farther your career could have gone very differently true like you may not be on glow right now because you're not necessarily no you're not trying to beat down the american idol like a lot of people don't probably know that about you right yeah i

totally agree and um also i've been a stand-up for a long time. And it's always really weird when a host will be like, from GLOW and American Idol. And then people are like, well, what's this about to be? So it's like, I don't, it's not like, I agree with you that to the level I got on the show, it's not a credit that helps me in any way. It's cool. I'm like like i'm proud of it i'm not like i don't i'm not like no i like i'm happy to talk about it and it was an awesome experience but it almost is distracting for people i

experienced that from the bachelor it's like yeah people love to talk about it it's certainly a conversation starter but like you almost i have to like all right let's yeah can we like what do you want to know let's get this out of the way so then we produced how much can i like you you know and and it can be again i've always said for me especially it's it's given me incredible access it hasn't given me any credibility the credibility has been something i've had to try to work on and earn around here but it has given me access and access is a big part of the, of the game. So it's just,

it's just kind of navigating. I feel that I didn't, I feel that glow was, was, is the access for me. Like that was how I, was there something that happened during the audition? Like that?

The access came up. No, no, no, no. Like, I think he's saying from what i understood that like um just access to do cool things and do cool press and go cool places and talk to people like having

access like it wasn't like idol that's making people be like oh that girl it's like oh she's on glow and that's a rad show maybe we see what she has to say or even stand up more than definitely more than i mean certainly at this point, idol was a hundred years ago. So it's. How long have you been doing standup? Well, I started when I was a teenager. I did stand up in New York,

like the cellar and Caroline's and got some in the nineties when I was a teenager, but I wasn't like pounding the pavement. I'm not painting this picture that I was like You were performing at the Cellar as a teenager? Well, it was like these curated things. It wasn't like I would show up at the Cellar and like Louie would be there and be like, what's up, motherfucker? Like I was a child. Still cool. I was like, you know, 14.

But then that led to like I would do a stand-up showcase like at Nickelodeon and then that led to a development deal do a stand-up showcase like at Nickelodeon and then that led to a development deal in Nickelodeon like made me a pilot and then I did and then I did a similar thing like I did my stand-up set um somewhere in New York and people from Warner Brothers came and that got me a development deal with Nell Scoville who created um Sabrina the Teenage Witch, all these things. Anyway, so I was this sort of really edgy, very out of control teenager who needed to put their energy somewhere.

And that was where I put it. And then moved out to LA and did more schtick and stand up and stuff. And one other deal, I just kept getting into development deals. That was a thing. It's funny, because I've been in some development deals myself. And you know, that feels so close. And so when those ones fall apart, oh, honey, I know it's true. And then by 29, when you're, you know, or 28, you're auditioning for

American Idol and like hearing about all of that success and you kind of being like, I'm just not gonna make it as an actor. I've had development deals which is so amazing but then you're like you know what fuck it i'm just i just can't it you know it's looking back a weird thing of like nobody had the amount of spot not spotlight but like industry like interest like it was like oh whoa this kid is gonna like it's like kid this kid stand up this is like an edgy this kid's gonna like do a thing and it over and over and over and over didn't happen and it was like it's fascinating because like when someone has no opportunities, that is devastating.

Yeah. Right. How awful. But when you have opportunities and they go down the drain every time, completely out of your control. I mean, I don't think one is worse than the other. I mean,

maybe not having them. You don't think one's worse than the other? I don't know. I mean, I mean, like look at cory feldman for example like he had all this opportunity but then like when it's ripped out from under you and then everyone's like you're bad no one cares now it's like that devastation might be less healthy for the human psyche than the person who like really wanted to do it but

like couldn't get opportunities that could be true i. I mean, but that's two different, I would say that's two different arguments in terms of how it affects someone, but it's all perspective, right? Because I mean, getting close. Yeah. Objectively having the opportunities is better, right? Because you're absolutely right. Because if like, yes, but like emotionally it can be detrimental. Someone who has something taken from them who doesn't you know the they've tasted the forbidden fruit so to speak and now you get it ripped from you and now you know what you lost you don't even taste it you're like yeah you make it it's here oh it's right there it's yeah they serve the food taste it they serve the food it's funny tv used to

this i'm this is a weird like comment and i don't know why it reminded me of this but like tv when i was a child used to bother me because like at sitcoms they would never eat food like on the bachelor sometimes and they'd always like these delicious dishes and always right before they would dig in they would just leave food there and i'm watching it and be like oh why is it there and now now tv they're they're really they're eating and talking but it's like yeah i totally get that but i think i just meant psychologically i didn't mean like objectively having opportunity is better than not that is like not an argument i would even attempt to make i'm i don't even i'm but you bring up an

interesting point though because i think a lot of people out there uh have that thought and even though objectively yes we all agree that having the opportunity is there a lot of people end up quitting or get discouraged everyone don't follow through everyone i know because it's so hard because it is for that reason it's so hard to get so close and it can be truly uh it can what's i mean it can just really well it's crushing it can crush you i think it's heartbreaking it's it's like it's it feels like you're being broken up with in such a very big dynamic way whereas if you don't have the date you never get broken it literally is like that because like for all the people who get cheated on or dumped or broken up with and you're like and they swear off men and women because it's just so, it's so defeating.

Yeah. But you gotta, I mean, I'm curious what made you, I mean, I can sit there and say all the things I think people should do to like, listen, it's all about what are the takeaways? What did you learn from it? What did you, like, what's, if you can just get back out there, what is some, like, did you meet someone? What are some things that you did that make you not totally give up couple things the answers are twofold one i just definitely think there's a piece of a persistent person's brain that's a little it's a little broken and a little kooky like it's definitely not it's definitely not the average route route

route route it's definitely not the average route to take to have to to be rejected real number that real number thousands of times and go like mama try again like it's actually competitive i mean with myself like i but so the two things are that like i can't explain persistence and perseverance all i can do is say like keep trying but i can't explain why I do. And the flip side, not the flip side, but the, the second thing is, um, getting close. Like the second thing is like, well,

I'm not batting my head against a wall. The guy that created Roseanne and mad about you is like, I'm going to make you a show. And I'm like, all right, that sounds fabulous. Then it won't go. But it's like that guy of all the people in the world said,

I'm going to make you a show. So I was like, it didn't feel like it was a delusion that I could like maybe do this thing, but it just, it wasn't for 25 years just kept not happening. Were you always, were you always persistent as a child? Oh yeah.

Yeah. And my acting as a child, I that was all me. Like I just like begged my parents and it wasn't like my parents were like, okay, let's give it, let's, let's make this child an actor.

It was just something I always wanted to do. I never, I have never not wanted to be a TV star. I have never not wanted to walk down the stairs and the nanny and just be the nanny. I've never just been like, Oh, I don't want,

like I look at Bette Midler and, you know, Sarah even. And I'm just like, that is just like, that's, that's what I, that is the goal forever.

I love that so much. That's really inspiring. Unwaveringly. Since I'm a baby. Wow. Were you, but you were just, but you're also just kind of persistent,

like with everything I'm guessing in life. I mean, I must be, but I don't know what else there is to be persistent. It could just be like, I mean, I ask these questions because it sounds familiar to my personality. In a way, my mom, ever since she could remember, my parents were just like, no matter what, it was just like I had in my brain, it just, there's always like, there's gotta be a way we can figure this out. Kind of like, even it was like,

can I go, can I go to Johnny's and do something? My parents like, no, blah, blah, blah, you're whatever.

And I'm like, well, listen, let's, let's figure this out. Let's just, let's, let's not make rastis shit with mom and dad.

Can we, let's just, we can, can we talk about this over a bowl of Lucky Charms, ma? Have a seat i was literally always dad you stand always like that and i would just literally keep asking and i would wear them down yeah and i just kind of always had that mentality and as i've gotten older

you know obviously there's a self-awareness of like yeah you should probably like chill out but there's always this kind of mentality of like, listen, I can, this is possible, hard, but possible. And I just got to figure out. It's like a game of like connect the dots or like you just, and for me, I do take pride in that because you get discouraged and I've always chosen to go after things that are challenging and a lot of people don't have success. I was in sales before I ever got into this,

which is literally like- Right, makes sense. Convincing people to get the thing that they want to get. I mean, a good day, when I got into sales, a good day was not making a sale and it wasn't making a meeting.

It was getting one person not to hang up on you out of a hundred. It was like one person being like, yeah, I mean, I guess we could meet. Really? know like that was like that was a win right but that meant like that kind of mentality of like measuring like it was all it was kind of measuring how to measure success you would measure it very differently so kind of like you wouldn't measure it by booking the show it was getting a call back getting a call back when you're starting yeah yeah when you're starting getting a a callback is like, Oh, my God, I'm going to get to meet this casting director again. This is huge. And then, you know, as you, you know, garner more success,

it's, you know, it's much different. It's like, Oh, can I meet a director? Can I? What am I going to do after glow? And what are you know, you're you're planning a really, I think a really different life. But it is. It it is true i think what's funny about what you were saying is i was sort of the opposite like i was i was a really like i was a i'm super neurotic and so i just was such a rule follower as a kid and like i wouldn't same oh really dare made sense to me 100 when i was in dare what is dare oh the drug i'm canadian so i'll forget some of these things oh sure i was i was we're like the same age so like when when uh dare was like from what i understand like the first year of dare i was introduced to my class yeah i remember this and officer hunter came in and had the briefcase with all the drugs in it

yeah he had the signs of and uh he was you know kids don't don't do drugs and they would show the face of the kid turning green and i'm just sitting there and be like yeah of course i wouldn't i will never do this and literally in like the seventh grade when my friends decided to like try beer and smoke a little weed i'm thinking guys don't you remember what they said in dare like you're gonna turn no guys this is this is madness as a grown-up did you turn into a bit of a drug doer i i i will dabble like i mean i i've never been a big drinker I don't do many drugs but I like I appreciate marijuana from time to time it's a more chill I don't like to drink

but yeah but I've never been big into it but I'm just laughing because a in Canada we didn't have dare we had Smokey the Bear who came and taught us about like wilderness protection oh you do? great did you have the elephant safety elephant yeah yeah he's great did you have the safetyphant safety elephant? Only you can prevent Forest fires

Oh yeah he's great Did you have the Safety elephant? No No that sounds terrible We had dare Yeah we didn't have Somebody come in

And teach us about drugs So I just Safety elephant is so funny Oh he's very great You have to be safe first And then you know I feel like they just Encourage smoking weed

Forever in Canada You know Just get out there Do some weed But as the rule follower I don't I'm curious what you yeah but there have been moments in my life where I kind of defiantly I stayed the lane and then all of a sudden it was like man why don't I try this like 100% a little early

it just I was a little too buttoned up and a little too tightly wound in that regard where I could have been like hey i'm an adult so as long as i i don't like fall off the wagon like see what everybody's talking about sure yeah and do it responsibly kind of thing yeah but i was very similar that way but it's weird because like in my career i was very much like no let's let's do this like let's let's go where with other things in my life I think I thought of it because you were like well were you that way in all aspects of your life and I think I'm very much one way in my persistence and belief in myself in my career but in like relationships I can tend to like allow myself to be in someone's shadow, which

you'd, I don't know, by meeting me, I feel you wouldn't think I would ever do that. No, never. I can tend to take up some space in a room, but in a relationship I can, maybe I feel like I take up a lot of space in a room. So in a relationship I try and go like, oh, well, I definitely don't want to do that here. So let me be. Do you consciously think about that? No,

no, but I look, but I look back, but I'm looking at it because you were saying like, am I that way in all aspects of my life? And I was like, I don't think I am. Are you in a relationship now?

Um, I don't know if it's not, I'm not in a relationship. I'm dating somebody. Cool. Cool. Yeah. He's cool. now um i don't know if it's not i'm not in a relationship i'm dating somebody cool cool yeah he's cool we've been dating for a few months only so it's it's new we haven't defined it though we have not defined it which is actually is that kind of nice at this point well you know what it is um i um i found out there's so much fascinating shit is going on right now it is kind of nice

not to define it but it's also yeah i get it's it's like i i don't wonder about him where i'm like oh do we need to say the words were exclusive like i don't think he's dating anyone else. I'm not dating anyone else. But that's also not my move. What is your move? No, my move is like when I meet someone I like, I'm going to try it. I'm not going to be like, oh, let me go and hang out with like three other dudes and figure it out. Like, that's too muddily for me. I've never been a person, even before like me and whatever dude will have an exclusive talk.

I'm already like, I don't, it's too confusing for me. I can't be. And I'm so debating. Yeah, it's just a crazy time because I recently found out that the dude I dated before him, who I didn't trust at all, and I broke up with him because I didn't trust him. who I didn't trust at all. And I broke up with him because I didn't trust him. I recently found out that he was totally hanging out with all the other people I thought he was.

Really? He confirmed your distrust. Well, he didn't. Other people did. I've since found out. Not he confirmed it, but his action. It's been confirmed that you were. And it's kind of, it's fascinating.

Aren't you kind of like, oh, my instincts. I know them them they're right i broke a tiny shoulder yes you're welcome it i really do feel like it gave me this like put my shoulders back like yeah i fucking saw you and i was right oh i'll tell you oh my god it's so good so he it's it's crazy so well just to say that the dude I'm dating now, I don't feel any of those things toward. I don't feel like, that's not true. What do you think the difference is?

Why are you? Communication? No, I think one of them, I'm going to tell you, but I think one of them is a good man. Yeah. And I think one of them, I'm very careful to use this word um um but from what i've learned about him this word is appropriate and come straight from my shrink sounds like a psychopath yeah that word like floating around lately. But this stuff is crazy.

Yikes. It's crazy. And he was never my boyfriend. And we dated for a few months. And I got out because I was like, hey, look, I don't know what if this is me and what if this is you. But I can't. I can't do this. This is crazy.

Give me one thing he did at the time. Okay. It didn't make sense. It didn't feel right in your gut. But like he had an excuse and he had a reason. Well, a couple things without giving too many details, but a couple things like that were very weird is like he would never charge his phone at my house.

Like when he would sleep over, the charger was on my side of the bed. So his phone would have to be near me. And it was like his phone would always die. And it was like, his phone would always die. And I was like, what a weird thing to go out. And you're like, hey, do you want to charge your phone? 100%. And he'd be like, no, I use it before I go to bed and just pass out and charge it in the morning.

I'm like, okay, just, you know. But what's funny is when you have a thought like that, you're like, am I going crazy? But I mean, honestly, my phone dies all the time. But if it was me and you were like, oh, she opens doors for people and she's nice and she smiles and you could see all of the other like, no, it's like what you said about him being a good man. It's him not taking the like you offered to charge it.

Yeah, we all have our phone die. He was like, true. I, I would rather it die be dead than be near you then be yeah yeah but the other thing seemed like a weird like that yeah it's so subtle but what is but then this other thing yeah right it's like a little thing yeah but it's not but this other thing is a big thing and this is a little crazy he would we'd be on the couch together or whatever and then he'd look at his phone and his face would get lascivious i don't even know what that word it means like fuck face like sexual give me your phone like we'd be chatting and talking and then he'd go like

his face would get he couldn't help him his face would get like fuckish like like there was something going on there that was like slight and then i would get like fuckish like like there was something going on there that was like slight and then i would be like and then you know i would you never want to be a girl that's like oh who was that but he'd be like oh i'm on like a group chat with my buddies and it's like do you want to fuck them all yeah do you want to fuck them all did your dick get hard from all your friends just now because i see it yeah i see it so i don't but you don't want to be the then again what's so crazy is like I feel like men really only call women crazy when they're caught and so it's like

hey what no like it's not true fair but I just mean like not only but often when in like in these moments I've never in the past one time and I'm in like two three year long relationships probably eight ten of them at this point like that math doesn't add up but um I'm a hundred no I just mean like I've been in a lot of like you know long-term one two-year relationships and that was never it's now I've never been like questiony or always dated comics they'll go to Montreal and like sleep in a hotel room with like a girl opener and like maybe at the time I should have been like,

hey, I have boundaries. She's weird. That's not great. But I trusted them and I don't think and it was their homegirl and I knew her and everything was fine.

I didn't really have any questions about it. And in this instance, he'd be like, I was at Gelson's and I'd be like, you weren't at Gelson's. You just weren't

at fucking Gelson's. And I just felt this the whole time and I ultimately just said, I don't know what if this is me and what if this is you and I got to get out. But now you, it was validated. So do you feel like now you do a better job of standing up for your gut, so to speak? Well, it's interesting because I did a really good job before, I think. And this was like a weird lapse of.

But like listening to yourself because like the subtle things you're just like well i don't know i guess whatever he doesn't care oh he doesn't need to be on his phone how great you know like you almost make excuses for like the weird thing and i don't really 100 and i i don't really want to go too much into it but there's there were a million of those and you know um know, a therapist said to me once that, like, I mean, I think she said 2% and that does feel crazy, but that only 2% of communication is verbal. And it's true. It's like, I just see you. You feel a situation. When you walk in, you instantly feel a certain way. No one has to say anything. A person either makes you feel safe

or they don't make you feel safe. I mean, it's pretty simple. And I think not that anyone's asking for advice, but if you don't feel safe in a thing and you don't know if it's you or the other person, it's not even relevant. I love that so much. Totally true. Great advice. You know who might not be doing that? Hannah on The Bachelor at segue.edu I just gotta segue it because we're talking about so many things that apply giving up you know Hannah's trying to give up and they're like do you or do you want to be persistent and find love

and she's not an option to give up I know that's what I was thinking you don't have to be the bachelorette you gotta pick one of these people they always like they always tease the possibility of well can you keep going? They did this on my season. Colton, certainly.

Hannah, a little bit. But there's a lot of money at play if the lead literally just said, you know what? I'm good. I'm just not going to do this. Certainly, the lead always wants to give up, especially in this situation. She really, truly felt like she is struggling. And I would, too. I situation. She really, truly felt like she is struggling, and I would too. I was like, oh God, if I could

march in there and yell at those boys. There's so many people left halfway through. There's so many people to go. They start dropping like flies. Yeah, because I noticed three went home. I mean, I'm learning. It was the first episode I'd ever seen. So how did you do? What did you feel? How did it go for you? It just didn't get past me that Luke P's name sounds like Loopy

and he's Loopy, and I was like, is everybody before i knew what was going on i was like why is everybody calling the one guy loopy but then everybody else has a name then when i realized it was a first name and a last initial i was like are we in kindergarten well like it's because of course there's two i understand why we i understand why we use a last initial but i was like we're in that segue period with him because you didn't know this, but the previous episode, Luke S. Just went home. So now we just are good with Luke.

So now, and when at the end of the episode, she called Luke's name and said, Luke, now he will forever just be Luke. But we were in the transitional period. And we're in the Luke S. Luke P. of it all. Yeah. And so that's why. I mean, he is a monster, huh?

Well, just so you know, he opened up this season. I've been very critical of Luke. How could you not? I mean. Well, she's tried to defend him, but he opened up. His big welcome to America, Luke P., was, listen, I know I'm a good looking guy. And when in college, he's like listen and chicks dig me and i basically fucked a lot of people in college but then i had an encounter with god in the shower

and he do you know that cartoon birds just flew down and sewed my pussy clothes yeah this was this is what he said i know that i'm super hot and chicks want to fuck me but also didn't he almost cry last night when he found out that Hannah's fucked? That was wild. In the previous... No, wait, wait, go on. So tell me. So he had an encounter. So he had...

Apparently God visited him in the shower and said, you need to stop doing this. And I immediately was just like... I don't know where to like go hide. Hold on. I just, I don't want to...

That was literal. But it came up for me again. These feelings came up again where he feels completely ignorant. Like he's never been in love before. He is completely ignorant. Like he truly kind of feels what he's feeling and he doesn't know that he's lying. And he lied because like he feels like he genuinely feels these things.

Ignorance is just not. Not an excuse. No. He's not 16. He's 24. I agree with that. I don't like Jews because I never met one. No. He's not 16. He's 24. I don't like Jews because I never met one. Yeah, well then meet one and then decide. Shut me up.

But that's what ignorance is. I guess, but I'm Jewish by the way. Do we teach the ignorant or do we call them fuckheads and just throw them off a bridge? Do you think a malignant narcissist is teachable? Yes. No, no, actually psychologically they're not. For a malignant narcissist to be... you think a malignant narcissist is teachable yes no no actually psychologically they're not for a malignant narcissist is he a malignant narcissist i watched one episode he is

obviously a malignant narcissist but for one what do you mean by malignant but i'm also gonna just gonna agree they only see their point of view they are incapable of empathy seeing your point of view and when it looks like they're being empathetic they're doing it sure for themselves so when he's like hannah please hannah that is for him that is for his ego i know this i when he it sounds like he's admitting something yes it's not because he doesn't really believe he did anything wrong i to me when i'm watching that when he came back and tried to get hannah to keep him around i didn't believe that he believed that he did something wrong i believe that he knew he was

supposed to say that in that moment to just say you're right i'm sorry he doesn't even know what he's apologizing for when he apologizes and a narcissist only apologizes when they're cornered or when they're caught so they're they'll say no no no no and he's literally about to go home and then you open the door and they're fucking someone else and they go but but you said we weren't exclusive and i wasn't sleeping with her just looked like it we were just i was just rubbing my dick and it doesn't mean anything like they just come up with a right turn to take and there's there's there's no helping this well here's why it's not fixable according to therapy um is it's not that it's not fixable but in order to even get through to a malignant narcissist um uh i'm trying to think who said this john comment anyway some therapy medical

professional it's like three sessions of therapy a week for like 15 years like it's a crazy number because you can't get in are you born like that get them to see themselves is that nature or nurture i don't know i mean i'm not a doctor but i've learned enough about it because of um relationships actually but um oh i dated some really i can pick up me too i'm like no he's fine underneath right yeah like can we teach him oh that is really funny yeah well i mean that's a lot i mean hannah's literally going through this she's we had her on a couple weeks ago and she kind of owned up to the fact that she i think she's not the only one we all believe that we can change people and fix people and we see the good in people right if we feel good about

ourselves because like oh like i he said nice things i believe in you and i'm a good person for believing we all do this. But some of these people, I mean, we could debate all day long whether Luke has a chance. I would agree with you a little bit more than Suge in the sense that, is it possible it could change? Sure, but this is not an overnight experience.

And maybe I agree that this being on the bachelorette and being ridiculed by America, maybe we'll humble them and might be at the start. Probably not. No, no, no, no, no. Fueling the fire. The wronger everyone thinks he is, the righter he gets, right? The more of a victim he is, the more no one understands me i'm totally misunderstood i everybody hates me and now he's this victim yeah yeah so it's really yeah i i just something about the whole thing just i just don't want to give up on the world i think a little bit

through this and and i i am hopeful i am too i don't want to give up on the world but it's just like it's kind of like if you're, I think, yeah. And I think that that's where I kind of maybe need to unblur the line. Now, I do think on this particular episode that the rest of the guys almost made Luke momentarily sympathetic when they were being children. But that's what happens. That's what happens with that's what happens if you don't like a person and that person and everybody's against a person people come up in defense of that person right so it's like with luke everyone's attacking him and you're like oh god like poor guy there's like

15 grown men talking to him about what a piece of shit he is like that must suck but he made his bed but here these are decisions he made here was the problem when almost momentarily helped luke p out is and again and haven't watched this it was a bunch of guys other than garrett who i think is a player and he's gonna have some he's gonna go far the rest of the guys mouthing off were a bunch of guys one of them went home we're a bunch of nobodies who are like just mouthing it happens every year it's just a bunch of guys who have no connection with the lead no connection with hannah they don't they're part of like they're part of the in group right now all they're like chill and like i kind of hated there was that moment where the two guys like hugged each other like they're like well what'd you say

about yeah i'm like these mother waspy motherfuckers but i was also thinking like it's so funny that they're all sitting there acting like friends. And I wonder what this was like for you, though I'm sure you've answered this before. We're like, you're all going to go home. And it's all going to be about one of you. But then again, I guess on Idol, everyone was like, oh, you guys were really friends. You really cried when someone went home. And it was like, yeah, actually, those are the only people you have in your life for that amount of time so you do become friends the reality is this is only a handful of

people less than five and we're usually like three to two who have a sincere connection with the lead and everyone else is like biding their time oh you know like there's only you're gonna say with each other like people that you'd even want to sit next to in a room and talk to most of the guys there have real they've formed real bonds with each other because they've spent all this time with each other and half of these guys have spent very little to no time with hannah they barely know the girl they're all in the shit together they yeah they sense that she they don't have a connection there and they're just like waiting to get sent home honestly so like when something like this comes up they're like getting into it because they they have nothing invested and some of these other guys um who have like something like they're just kind of like staying out of it because it's like

and so yeah it was kind of annoying i give i think hannah was awesome she she really killed it for her to come up i think it's very difficult in her situation to, the way she just kind of like told all the, I mean, it's, Hannah's young. She's mature for her age. How old is she? She's only 24.

Oh, whoa. Right? So naturally you have a younger. People are still 24. You have a younger cast. But to me, this episode is very much reminiscent of a young woman who's mature.

And she looked like she was on a, like the age of the men really came through this season, this episode for me, where they, they looked like a bunch of boys just kind of like whining about each other. You know, what's crazy. I mean,

the, it's a Petri dish for creating a bunch of boys who whine to each other. Like, how do you not look like that every single episode, every single time? I mean, there's 14 people fighting for one person., how do you not look like that every single episode, every single time? I mean, there's 14 people fighting for one person. Sure.

And in a situation like that, whether you like the person or not, you're there to fight for them. So just do it or you're, it's going to be bad television. And that's what you signed up for. So the whole thing to me is a bit. Totally.

I mean, then that is the show and that's what makes it great. But like, even the, I was almost like in defense of Lukeke p when garrett's like well honestly like luke p doesn't owe garrett anything so this whole idea that he needs to like weird garrett's just like oh i told you not to do this it's like if i'm luke p like honestly dude like yeah and and he like hannah was was left having to defend Luke P

because all the other guys were worrying about all the wrong and the way she said it was so great. I loved how she was like, stay in your lane, focus on me. She was really great this episode. She was good. My trick always is stay in your lane. Stay in your lane.

But just the way she owned it and owned the room and told these guys to like, I thought it was Well, what i also thought was interesting is that when she came to the cocktail party at first she said exactly how she wanted them to behave that night she said hello tonight we're gonna get deep i want you to tell me about you and for me to tell you about me and then garrett takes the first date and he's like but first let's talk about luke p it's like men the women will often tell you what they want and if you just listen and provide like how far like if pete came in there and

was like how are you tell me your deep shit she would have been like i will fuck you later and here's all my deep shit like it was a very easy play for the boys and garrett took the shit off the rails so yeah i also loved how she was like you guys don't know anything about me i couldn't help but feel a sense of pride of the show and we're like well i just tune into vile files because we asked hannah a ton of questions and she really opened up about some personal shit and it was fantastic yeah um but yeah it was just kind of fascinating to watch hannah just say that i thought. I thought that was great. I thought that was great. Are you going to watch the rest of the season now? I don't think I'm going to watch the rest of the season.

I mean, I may. I can't say. I don't know. Just videos. Yes. No, I don't know. I mean, it was, I have to say like. It's upsetting a little bit.

Well, you know what was actually good about it? Most of the TV I watch. God, this is going to sound so rude. most of the tv i watch requires my attention and i think that's why shows like this and how like they don't like i was i got rid of more clothes while watching this than i have in years i went through my closet like i was cleaning i was cooking i did laundry i was like i got more shit done while the bachelor was on in the background on my computer that's why a lot of people like it for the i mean i'm similar to you like i generally don't watch reality tv right uh for that reason but a lot of people seem to like the mindlessness of it all and it's it's a very relatable because there's

always something where you're just like it reminds you of the guy you dated or a situation you've been in or or what you would or wouldn't do in these situations like i was really proud of hannah speaking to what you're saying like reminding i was like hey i gotta do that like here's this young girl who's on a reality show but i she was like here's what i need yeah and if you're not gonna to give me that, that's okay. But these are the things I need. And I'm learning in my 30s now how to even say like what boundaries look like and to say like, okay, cool. You don't have to change and you're not inherently a person who wants to go out of their way and be emotional or make me like then okay that's okay you're you're a wonderful person yeah but i at least have to tell you what my needs are and i don't think i've like in all my past relationships i don't think i ever did that i think i was always just like so obsessed with being

kind of funny and cool and what they need rowdy but easygoing like whatever you need like it's fine you need to like go and have a female roommate on your tour like that makes sense fine i mean i hope she doesn't suck your dick but like it's fine you know and you know not obsessively checking in like it's that's just never been my move i've had my kind of own shit going on and And I prided myself on that. And I think looking back, there probably could have been a lot more pride in boundaries and articulating needs

and being a person really, I just love that she was like, we're gonna go deep. I've never sat on a couch with a man in my life and been like, tell me what, like, of course I ask questions. And of course I want to know about your family and where you're from and what kind of stuff made you who you are. And I do ask those questions. But it's not like, it's just, she was so obvious about it.

Yeah. Yeah. You've never like, you've never like tried to get a guy to like own up to like really being himself around you in a sense of like holding him accountable for like what what do you want to share with me just with me about yourself never no and i'm getting like a little like i'm jittering my hands i'm just like no look i i've definitely i don't see you're not you're not the you're not the in the minority i know it's wild we we talk about this like what i've learned by doing this show or some of these relationship questions i've is the overwhelming theme that people but i see it more with women they do they they seem to expect less

about what they want out of a relationship and they seem to be more fixed on making sure they're liked by whoever it is they have an interest in and and they spend very little time on figuring out what they want and what they deserve it's it's wild fascinating story or not uh probably should never preface anything with that if you want anybody to think what you said is cool but it'd be fascinating well it's going to be terrible and boring you You're both sleeping. Oh my God. Um, years ago I went through a breakup and I went to therapy and I was telling my therapist that it was so frustrating because I was sitting on the couch with my boyfriend at the time when we were holding hands and we were just like sitting there and it felt like just a really cute moment. I was more of a meditator at the time, which I definitely got to get back into.

And so was he. And feel free to make fun of me or comment in the comment section. We were meditating together. It was beautiful. And then afterward, we're sitting on the couch and he was just like, when are we going to get a chance to connect? And I was like, my jaw dropped. I was like, I truly, I don't know if I'd ever.

And you were feeling connected. Connected, I don't think I ever felt more connected to any human being in my life. We literally meditated holding hands. Is there anything that could be more connected than if we did that with his dick and me? Like it was the most. Ooh, that's a nice idea.

That's actually a really good idea. Wouldn't be very nice. Be very hard to concentrate on your mantra. So then we're sitting there and he says this and i'm like what there was no it just got right to my gut i was like i don't okay and then it occurred to me the phrase being in a relationship with you is like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it like if this is how connected we are and you don't feel connected, this can't, there is no universe where this can work. I'm like putting in.

I mean, you're on wildly different pages. I'm pouring love into this thing and it's leaking out of a hole. Do you think he meant it? Or do you think he thought it was a cool thing to say? He meant it. And the conversation continued. And he was like,

yeah, I just don't feel, I just didn't feel connected. Now he's the adult child of an alcoholic he's got all his he raised his drug addicted sisters he when he was 12 like he's been through the shit and now learning about what it is to be the adult child of an alcoholic and all the things he went through i understand where he was coming from and at the time i didn't have the emotional intelligence to be like wait explain to me when was the last time you did feel connected right all of those things all of that is to say fuck i lost my train of thought um oh i was telling my shrink this story and he was telling me all about his needs and i think i was like rubbing his arm or something and

he was like you know i just need more physical touch and i'm going like oh whoa we're not on the same page like i'm i think I'm touching you to a point that would like maybe even annoy someone else. Like cheeks and neck and ear. And just, I'm a very like squeezy touchy. And he still wasn't enough. No, and he wasn't, not only wasn't it enough, he wasn't, it wasn't experiencing it.

It was like, I would go like this and he'd be like, what if you'd ever touched my arm? And it was like, I don't experiencing it. It was like, I would go like this. And he'd be like, what if you'd ever touched my arm? And it was like, I don't even know. Anyway, all this to say the long, this is the long winded version, unfortunately, that I sit down at the shrink and I say to her like, and he was telling me all his needs. And I feel like I was meeting his needs. And they weren't being met. And I just didn't know what to do and blah, blah, blah. And all she heard during this entire thing, she didn't focus on any of that, she said, and in those moments, you know,

what did you say were your needs? And I started gag weeping, because it occurred to me, and this was when I was maybe 34, I had never one time, and your eyes are getting welly. I know. I had never at one time

meant to call you out with love, not with judgment. No. Oh my gosh. I was like, oh, loser. Bitch, you're crying. No, you're touching my heart. I was like, I never sat across from a man and was like, I just want to feel enveloped. I want to feel taken care of.

I want to feel seen, heard, and understood. I want to be a team with you. I want to never, never, never, never one time. It's a common theme with our audience. And I'm watching Hannah, and I'm like, yes, bitch, go, you tell me what you need. No, she's really killing it. Well, I feel like we can keep talking about shit forever,

so maybe we'll have you back but are you down for taking some questions with some fans and trying to solve their problems of course i'll be terrible at it let's do it who's ready to get their love lives ruined let's do it marissa how are you welcome to the show thanks questions Marissa, how are you? Welcome to the show. Hi, I'm good. How are you? I am great. Does everyone just want to introduce themselves? I'm Nick.

Hi, I'm Jackie. Hi, I'm Shug. And we together are going to attempt to solve your problems. Okay. Oh, we're going to solve them. Yeah. How can we help you? you okay so there's kind of two parts to this um situation um it's more of a heavy topic i feel like but um okay i'll try to word it best um i just moved from a small midwestern town And the only person I knew out here was someone from my high school.

Where do you live? Where is it? I will be pretty vague, but it's one of the states that Nick has lived in. Okay, great. Where you live now? What? Where you live now. I'm in an East Coast city.

Okay, you're in a big city. Great. Yes, in a big city. Great. Yes, in a big city. So moving from knowing only a small town to a big city, it was nice to know someone out here, even not knowing them all that well. And this person, he welcomed me very much into his friend group, and he's been very great. And he's become a very good friend of mine.

But he kind of hid his sexuality because he was a son of a very prominent man in our community. And because of that, I think that he's always been someone that he's not and been a person that other people think he needs to be. And since, because of that, he's been struggling a lot of depression issues so you know this guy from back home? From high school okay missed that and

him coming out was not a shock to anyone something we always knew so he has come out to you and some of his closest friends he came out when he went to college so that was college. So that was a while ago. That was years ago now. Okay. But his, his family, some of them have not accepted it. And it's been very hard on him. But because we are each other's only point of contact from back home,

I've had to absorb a lot of that burden or not burden. I've been that point of contact and I've had to deal with a lot of heavy events because of that. And I'm very, very happy to be there for him, but he's not kind of willing to change or help himself. When you say change, what do you mean? When you say change, what do you mean? And it's starting to affect me. When you say change, what do you mean? Like, what is he not doing that you wish he would do?

There's some alcohol issues that are what bring up the depression. And when that depression hits, it gets pretty serious. Do you think he's an alcoholic? Yes, I, I, I believe so. He, he knows he is, but he has not. Oh, he knows he is. That's it. That's an important distinction. Okay. Yeah. So he, he has not attempted to make those changes. He's thought about it. How old is he? Um, uh, mid twenties. changes he's thought about it how old is he um uh mid-20s yeah um so that that's kind of issue number one and then eventually that'll lead into number two well should we maybe that's

well i guess i just want to hear the whole i guess the whole thing oh okay yeah i mean if there's another issue let's just get it all and then we'll try to dissect it. Right. So I am more than happy to help him. He's been so great to me and I want to be there for him, but it's becoming a weekly problem of kind of checking in on him, having family members, friends check in on him through me. through me, a lot of scary moments. And it's starting to take a toll on me personally. And that's a hard thing to say and admit because you want to be there for that person. But the second part to it is he's also kind of hidden behind this sexuality. And it's come to a point where he believes that he can say things and it's okay for him to say things because of his sexuality like what that may be um i just don't

know what you mean sorry i'm not trying to put you on the spot no no you're totally fine um and i'm kind of being vague you're being super vague so i'm trying to trying to you may have to be more specific for us to be able to yeah like is Is he saying he's going to, just because remember this is anonymous, so this is a good place for you to get this out. So is he, you know, is it to the point where he's saying he's going to kill himself? Is he drinking too much at that point? Does he, you know? Yes. And that's hard for you, I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet that that's puts a lot of weight on your shoulders. I think a lot of I have I've had people in this exact same situation who, you know, haven't come out yet in their 20s. They're exact. Yeah. And their families back home don't know, you know, myself

and maybe some other people that are in the circle do know you're watching them breathe on the ground, maybe drunk on drugs, whatever it is, so depressed that they're ready to kill themselves. And you're the one that's taking that weight on your shoulders. And there's no way I imagine that you can fathom being like, yo, I can't handle this much. I can't handle this much of your pain right now. And what I always found it helped was to be like, A, always the truth. I get it. Your your family might leave you but that's kind of what it's gonna have to be and b you need to see a professional and talk to a professional because as your friend i can't solve your alcoholism or whatever it is like everything

you said 100 and for me what i've learned as i've gotten older is it's boundaries. You're not a bad friend to say to your friend, I'm actually at my critical mass of the amount of what's happening in your life has now become my life, right? We now have, it's also kind of codependent, right? So it's like your lives have become one life. You have to be checking on him. Is he drinking too much? Is he going to kill himself? Has he come up with what's happening over there? And it's so much weight on your shoulders. I had this exact experience in my late teens, early 20s. I had a best friend who was gay and she, but she was more than an alcoholic and a drug addict. She was a sex addict and she was sleeping with men and she was gay, but she didn't know and she wouldn't admit it. And then it sort of,

she came out and it sounds like it's different from your friend because she came out and her family was sort of like, yeah, duh. And it's such an important time in their lives. And I'll say that because coming out as gay is truly one of the bravest things that you can do. So a lot of people that are in that situation are struggling so much. And I think as you know, the supportive community, it's, it's a wonderful gift to be the ones that they do turn to to help them through it. But it is a heavy, it can be a heavy bag. And it's an interesting time because we are so much more tolerant of homosexuality in 2019 than we ever were. But there are still millions of kids who can't come out to their parents

because they'll be disowned. So there's this weird, like 20 years ago, it would have been like, yeah, of course you can't come out to your parents. Now there's this like, yeah, just come out. Everybody comes out. There's gays on TV, there's drag shows. And it's like, no, this still can't happen

for me and my family. And I think like, no, this still can't happen for me and my family. And I think, I mean, as a hetero person, I'll never understand the weight of that. But I think as a separate issue, this is sort of taking over your life. And we're here to help you. And there's a difference between being there for your friend

and it taking over your life. And I think it's okay. And it doesn't make you a shitty friend to create a boundary. In fact, it might help your friend if you create a boundary and you say like, hey, I'm at a point, like even in relationships, I just learned from a friend, a husband and wife, a husband can say, honey, I love you so much. I actually can't hear any more about this. I've given you all I can on this. I love you so much. I actually can't hear any more about this. I've given you all I can on this. I love you so much. I'm there for you. I've literally given you every ounce I can on this and I don't have any more advice. I'm tapped out. You do need to talk to a professional. Like how fascinating that in a relationship you can do that.

And it's actually one of the tricks to helping people out of depression is to, because they go into internal spins about themselves, about their problems and about all of the rest of it. And then if somebody that they love who they're trusting with this information turns around and says, hi, I actually need something. I need help because this is a lot for me. I think you'll find that he'll turn around and be like, oh, my God, honey. You know, i didn't realize i was saying honey because he's gay um well you know i don't know maybe maybe okay i mean i jumped into character i say i say honey no but she's a hetero woman i just mean like okay anyway you don't know what i am um anyway um yes nick i know that you have like a burning you're biting your

lip over there oh no I just bite my lip. I think you guys said it great. I mean, the only thing I would just kind of echo what Jackie and Suge said in that sometimes, you know, there's definitely a time and a place for tough love. I think boundaries is a good place to set. I do think we talked a little bit about this last week. It's just, listen, I, you know, whether being in a minority feeling outcasted all these things that you know fortunately for the most part of my life I haven't had to deal with so you know it's easy

for me to sometimes you know dismiss some of the pain and suffering people sometimes experience but at the same time I think sometimes when you do feel down, it's really easy for you to compound and make it worse on yourself and feel self-pity. And then for the people who are close to you, like yourself, to really kind of dump that shit onto your friends because you know you can. And because you've been such a good friend and kind and you're willing to listen, I think subconsciously, it's very easy for that friend to do that and really pour it on. And even sometimes say things they don't maybe even really mean, not to dismiss sometimes these unveiled threats of suicide or things like that, because how do you know what's

serious and not serious? But I think sometimes people have a tendency of doing that with the people we feel most comfortable with. It happens all the times in any kind of relationship. So I would agree that I absolutely recommend them to get some professional help. And if it gets to the point, again, don't like just echoing what Jackie and Suge said, set those boundaries and don't be afraid to just say, listen, I love you and I will always be there for you, but enough's enough. And I have to like, you got to stop this or you're gonna you're gonna put like almost say fine if this is the situation you're laying out for me then i have to start taking more like severe actions and really like i don't know what that means but you know listening to you cry and make

threats i'm gonna i'm gonna have to do something about the things you're saying to me and make them kind of be like oh well i'm just you know i don't know but like you can't just this this like circle calling the police exactly the circle of like you have to you have to take it out of your hands what we think we're all saying i'm so sorry you have to take it off your shoulders this is hugely weighing on you and this entire this person's entire life has become your problem and that's different from friendship. Yeah. I think we feel often like, well, now I'm not being there for my friend. I'm letting him down.

What if he does do something terrible? I mean, how, Jesus Christ, you know, he's told you he might, and now that's on you and you could have done more to stop it. The truth is you're, sounds like you're doing everything you can. You're being there for him incredibly. And it's time for someone else to help him. And he needs to want to help himself. He needs to hit his,

his wellbeing is it's, it's, it's on him the most and other people like yourself can be there, but he needs to, he needs to want to help himself and he needs to fit, you know, and again, all you can do is encourage him to,

to see the right people and be there as a friend, but you're not as therapist and you're not, you're not going to save him, you know, and you can't get him to want to change things in his life. So I think you need to like almost sometimes stop enabling them, even though you're not necessarily trying to. You are indirectly doing that. Well, that's what boundaries are. When you go like, I'm telling you, and I'm only repeating this because it shocked me.

My best friends who are married, the most incredible couple I've ever seen in my life. And one time I was at their house and she was bitching about something or he was bitching about something. And she just said, I love you so much. I've done everything I can for you regarding this one thing. I'll always be there for you. I'll never judge you. I'll hear everything you ever have to say.

I can know it's now out of my power and control to continue to help you. I don't have anything left to help you with. I love you. I'm here for you. I can't help you with this anymore. And it's like, I think that's literally,

I would say, I would go back and listen to this episode and say exactly that. I would add one thing onto it. I would add one thing onto it, which would be to not dismiss the severity of what he's going through and say, I see how big this is. And I can I understand what, you know, pain you must be in. And that's why your next step has got to be to help yourself and see a professional.

And, you know. I only would add one thing too. We're writing you a full script. I would only add one thing too, is that if, and I know you were being vague, but if he is, when he's making these kind of veiled threats about himself and dumping this stuff on you,

I don't think it's wrong for you to express to him what he's doing to himself and saying to you makes you feel. Like, I think you as a friend need to let him know, like, hey, listen, fine, I know you're suffering, but like, again, go get help and I will go with you. But like you dumping this on me, like, I know I'm not trying to make, I'm not making this about me,

but like you have to, do you love me? Ask him if he loves you as a friend and ask if he cares about you because you're, you're breaking down watching him destroy himself. And I think it's okay for him to let them know that because right now he's, he's pouring it on a little bit and he's feeling a little, he's, he's in a negative feedback loop of,

and he kind of needs to get smacked across the face, whether it's physically or metaphorically, but he needs a kick in the ass. Just to be shaken out of, I mean, I think a lot of the time, I know I get depressed and I do need to be shaken out of the darkness. Like it's, you know, but people jumping in with me and rubbing my back for four days, in my experience anyway, that's not. Yeah, there's not a lot of result there.

And it's a severe problem. He needs to see someone and he needs to get help. It's pretty much that straightforward. All right, well, we have to get going. I hope this was helpful. Good luck. I know it's really tough and you're obviously a great friend

who loves your friend very much and so be strong but sometimes strength requires you to push back a little bit and just let him know you love him and that's all you can really do

that you're there for him but he needs to step up too. Boundaries. Right. Thank you. All right. Take care. Best of luck.

What's your name? Nori. Hi Nori. I'm Nick. Hi. I'm Jackie jackie hi shag's here too hi hi how can we help you nori um well so last night kind of changed the turn of events with the question i had for you guys but what was the question still kind of okay so i've been dating this guy for three years on and off but um mainly on for the most part and um i had moved to los angeles to be with him and we lived together for about a year and then i moved out and got my own place and long story short we're back together and things are

looking pretty good with us but there's still like some substantial issues that need to be sorted out with like him not opening up and like I guess like being more emotional and letting me express my emotions and I'm having an issue with that and I'm trying to get us to like get to a place where we can move back in together and like rebuild this relationship so I'm trying to figure out like I know you can't change someone but is there like I'm only laughing because I'm good so it's resonating go on uh so like is there like a way to i don't want to like give someone a deadline or like force them into a situation let me try to can i ask you a question i already understand the question yeah can i ask you a question? What do you think? Because just in your question,

you've kind of articulated things that you're hoping for and you're trying to and you're prioritizing. What would you say he's doing to prioritize your relationship with him? Do you feel like he is prioritizing it? What are the things you think he's doing to go out of his way to make this relationship work? Well, I think over the last year, I've seen... I'm 31 and he's 28. And I think this is such a growing time in both of our lives emotionally and finding ourselves and really trying to find that comfortable point with who we are as people. And I've watched him really acknowledge issues and start to grow. and really trying to find that comfortable point with who we are as people.

And I've watched him really acknowledge issues and start to grow and understand me a little bit better, but I feel like there's still a wall that he's hitting where I don't know if it's him being a little childish or that's just who he is as a person. What do you mean by the wall? What wall is he hitting? He'll start to open up. He is my best friend.

We're super comfortable with each other. We can tell each other everything, but there's still this weird... I'm talking about the future where he kind of just shuts down. Okay. We did everything backwards. We moved in together after three

months which is insane and living together was fine but we had some outside issues which is why i moved out in the first place so i'm just trying to figure out like is he ever i guess you guys can't really like read his mind but like is a person able to get back to that place or do we already hit that and move on i mean i think every relationship's different i mean the honeymoon phase or whatever you're referring to is it's never going to be this the same as it was when you first met nor should it be i mean like that's you can't replicate the first time you meet someone in the first few months of hanging out in the magic and things like that. I mean,

that, that's not, not that part, but like the fact like of getting back, moving back in together and like, can you go backwards? Sure. I mean,

people get back together. I mean, it's, I don't necessarily usually recommend it, but every situation is different. you know, and I don't know a lot of the details of why he might have moved out. But I think, you know, and I've said this with other callers, I think it's

really important in this situation without knowing too much detail to try not to make something, to try not to force something that isn't there or try to fix something that's broken. And I don't know if that's the case here but you know the answer your question like can people change sure but they never change for anything other than themselves um ever right like he you don't want him to change for you because that's just that means it's temporary that means he's pretending to change and put a bandit in something that's he's not really fixing he actually has to want to do it for himself and you should want to do it for himself because that's the only way it will remain permanent um right so you know like i i think again the whole cliche of if you love something

let it go you know kind of thing it it sounds like and that's why i asked that question is what is he's doing because clearly you're very dedicated about making this relationship work and you're, you know, and we, we thank you for calling and asking this question, but I'd be really curious about what his, what conversations he is having with his friends and how much of this

relationship he's prioritizing and trying to make work other than just conversations he's having with you when you want to have them. Like, does he bring it up? I mean, I just don't think he's having those you when you want to have them like does he bring it up i mean i just don't think he's having those conversations like i just don't yeah does he ever bring it up does he ever bring you guys up to you or is it always you bringing it up what like it's not an awkward like me and him are so comfortable it's never like are we together are we not together kind of conversation i don't mean that i mean like does he ever come to you and say hey i want to talk about us or where are does he i'm assuming

it's always like that yeah well he isn't like that he always is like i love you he's always like we see we spend every weekend together we hang out during the week we're very it's loving but there's this like weird wall of like are you together like i mean are you committed to each other in a sense that you do you know that you're only seeing each other yeah yeah you are okay you're yeah um you because you like i'm i'm ready to move back in together and like read and like have this relationship kind of back where we left off, like where we had, well, it's never really been left off, but like, I want to be back living together and moving towards the future. And he's always like, give it a few months, give it a few months.

And it's like, how many months do I get? Well, here, I'll, without knowing too much, I'll sum up what I think you should do. And my general thought on this is that you've been with this guy long enough and you are together. You shouldn't be this confused about a relationship that you're in. And so whatever it is you want, you should feel confident and expressing what you want. And if he doesn't give you the answer that you want, you need to like react to that because what's happening here is like, you're kind of saying what you want. And

he's like just saying things to appease you and delay the inevitable. And you're going to, and you're continuing to be okay with not getting the answer you want, because like, he keeps not necessarily, he's like, oh, well maybe we'll just, he keeps delaying it. Right. It's not the answer you want, but it's not necessarily the answer you're afraid of getting. So like your second option right now is to remain in limbo. And you, at this point, it's on you to decide how long are you okay with living in limbo? And how, at what point is your breaking point to say, listen, whatever you want is fine. I'm going to respect that.

But this is what I want out of the relationship. This is what I need. And I'm not okay with continuing to live in this kind of situation because you shouldn't be this confused in a relationship that you're in. You have to, again, I've said this over and over, you have to be okay with getting an answer you don't want. And right now you're not, and you're hoping for the best. And you're just like taking the second best option in your mind, which is it's not no, but it's not yes, it's a maybe. And right now in your mind, maybe is better than no.

And I would argue that it's not. It's not. It's not. And my suspish is that if you do say like, hey, I'm not giving you like an ultimatum or anything, but we need to figure this out. And he still says, give me a month, give me a month. And you go, give me a month give me a month and you go give me a month

yeah i actually i actually i'm gonna i'm gonna go to um let's see what's going on in santa barbara in the next couple weekends but i'll call you when i figure out what i how i feel i guarantee he's on your doorstep with fucking two suitcases yeah so or not and if he's not then that tells you your answer too that then yeah you know it's sort of like he has all the power right well yep we got we got and that doesn't feel good by the way having all the power yeah what was the breaking point last night and i told him i was like leave me alone this weekend i'm going and staying in marina del rey for the weekend at the rest and you just leave me alone uh Yeah. And I said that you got to believe that and you got to follow through and you can't say it as a...

Right. Because the thing is, he knows you'll be back. He can't say it as a threat. I think you really... And again, this is very similar to what we had last week. You have to, again, set expectations for what you want and deserve in a relationship. You have to really follow through with that. That should be a priority over this relationship.

Your needs and your wants in a relationship should be a bigger priority than this relationship. Because if your needs and your wants are met, then you will be in the relationship that you deserve. You know what I'm saying? That will be the type of relationship that you should give it its priority. But right now, you're in a relationship that you're very confused about. That's not okay. Yeah. And it's, this hasn't been going on for two months.

I mean, three years is an inordinate amount. And I've been there. That's why when you were saying it earlier, I was like, I was in a relationship. And what Nick said, I mean,

nail in the fucking head, really proud of you, dude. Like that for real. That was amazing. This idea of like, wait a minute. I've been in this way too long to be confused yeah this isn't

three months in and we just met and i'm like oh we're still learning each other this is like your fucking person and if it's not get sorry but bye yeah yeah that's like exactly where i'm at with everything it's just like i guess it's just like the letting go and kind of being like, you take the reins. And if you want to do this, then fine. It's like, it's kind of scary to like, let the horse ride. You know what I mean? It's definitely scary. And we've all been there. And I've in different parts of my life, definitely have been in a relationship that was in limbo. But again, things like thinking about how much time you've been together, he's your best friend,

how much you've already invested are all things that we do to continue to down this kind of circular path. And none of those are actual valid reasons to keep doing what you're doing. All that really matters is the present and the future. And the past is fairly insignificant. I wouldn't argue. I mean, it sounds nice and it's great to reminisce, but it doesn't do you anything in the moment. And not to be gross.

Sorry, I kind of broke up just there. And not to be gross. Well, not that it's gross, but, well, you're beautiful. But what I was going to say is you have an incredible shaped mouth. Sorry, I can't hear you. Well, you'll hear it on the podcast and you'll be flattered. But you have a really good shaped mouth. Oh, thank you.

You're welcome. Best of luck. Again, really, you got to reset and really value what you want. But I say this to a lot of people. You're going to be fine. That I can guarantee you. But that's entirely up to you. You have a lot more power than you are acting on.

Well, thank you. I really appreciate it, and I needed that. All right. Take care. Thanks, guys. Have a good weekend. You too. Nick, you are good at this.

Isn't he good? I don't want to say something that might be offensive, but also might be complimentary. I'm surprised. Not that you couldn't be, but I just think I'm here for it. I know. I'm surprised. Not like that you couldn't be, but I just think like, I'm here for it. I know. I'm telling you,

it blows me away, the gems. Because he's blunt and straightforward and very clear. He's really helping people. I'm really proud of you guys. People,

they're calling for advice, but they're like, I don't really want to air it and I don't really want to throw this person under the bus and I got to be super vague. And it's like, hey, if you need help, not that we're professionals, but if you need help, and you're calling it, you need to be like, here's what he said, here's what he's doing. Here's how I feel. And it's very hard for people to say those things. But again, that's just another example of them not really taking the

full 100% of what they need. like you take the step to call into the show lay it out there let us you know air it so that they're all still defending the people they're helping isn't it fascinating fascinating i know it's not i i would argue that they're not well they are but they're also defending their choices sure you know in the sense that because if deep down our subconscious knows if we are with it doesn't sound like this guy's a shithead or whatever but if we're with someone that maybe deep down we our gut is questioning do i deserve but more and yet they decide to and when the guy is the girl that we're in a relationship with blows us off her flakes or

it just keeps doing things and making us feel like, I don't deserve this. I don't know why I'm doing this. We know that we're choosing to keep doing this. And so I often think that when we're doing, when people, when we all do this, we are also defending our choices. We're defending our choice to stay in a relationship that, you know, when they, how many times do we, people say like, all my friends hate them or my friend know I deserve better and blah, blah, blah. And that's a, that's a theme with people. We've all been there. And so there's a part of it as defending our choices,

because we know that we are, are putting up with things that we don't want to do. And you also might think like, oh, I'm wrong. I'm wrong here because he's, he's fine. Like he's, he's saying he wants to stay for a little bit longer. And so I'm just going to wait. I think that you also, you're having trouble saying what you need or standing up for yourself because you're like, am I wrong? Am I asking too much? I also just think with women who were raised to wonder if it's just harder to climb. And even in a relationship, it's like, I think we're primed. I mean,

this is like, look, I mean, the 1950s weren't a long time ago and it was weird for a woman to have a job. Like it was just, it was like kind of gross. And a woman who like wanted things for herself was looked at as like

masculine and bad and gross and unmarriable. And that's not a long time ago. So that's what we're sort of, as women in relationships, fighting against. Like when we want things or need things, it's like, well, shouldn't I just be like making kids and being out? Like that's all weirdly still in there.

That's not a long time ago. Yeah, it happens. Although it does happen with guys too. I mean, like it's, I've been in it. I know growing up, I had a couple guys who, guy friends who, you know, were dating this girl and this girl was like super hot and they were just so into them,

but they never like, they just kept getting toyed along. Right. And so I think women in the dating world seem to, with callers, allow that to happen more often than men. But sometimes it'll flip. And it's always a power dynamic. In any relationship, almost rarely is power equal.

That's great if you can get there. But especially in the early stages of dating, no one has... Someone has a little bit more power. Wait, what do you mean by power in a relationship? Sorry to dissect this. Early on in a relationship, early on in a relationship, there's someone is a little bit more confident, whether it's the reality or just their own delusion

of where they stand in the relationship. And the other person has a little bit less power and their choices choices and that can change drastically in a day you know sometimes power constantly shifts early in a relationship when like you realize like in your 20s he may be it's got the upper hand you mean this isn't the upper hand so it's like you know the guy the guy's like you know doesn't call you for a day so you go out with your guy friends that night and you're not really doing it on purpose but you're going out with your guy friends and then he's like oh shit she has whatever a life or she's going out with her people and all you want to do is hang out with them and

they seem to be okay with not hanging out with you even though you're pretty sure they like you but like yeah it's just even that little thing or you, like if there's an age difference, right? Maybe it's a slightly older guy with a girl. And at first he might have the power because he's just like, well, you know, he can be like a little condescending, even accidentally says, I've been there or whatever. And then all of a sudden, but they start dating, right? And fast forward a year and he's like ready to settle down. And he's just like, I really, yeah. And she's like, whoa, buddy. And that power then'm yeah and she's like whoa buddy and that power then often changes where she's like well i don't know if i want that meanwhile she

spent six months just trying to rein them in and then she so like that happens all the time it's also there's a little bit of like love addiction love avoidance stuff in there like i was in a relationship in my early 20s where i was there is no other way to describe it than to say i was obsessed with the studio he was a musician and he was on the road. And I just was, I just loved him so much. I didn't even know what to do with myself. And looking back, I don't, I mean, I think it was love, but it was more like just, oh my God. And he's on the stage and he's my, it just was the whole thing. And I was a kid and I loved him so much. And then he would always sort of like be doing his own thing. And then I would go like, okay, he's not calling.

He said he's coming into town on a Friday. He'd call me on Sunday and be like, I'm leaving tomorrow. And I'm like, well, you were here for three days. Like, I'm your girl. I was always feeling small and shitty. And then finally I just said, I won't do this. You know, I can't do this anymore. And the second I turned around, he was at my back.

But he and I both were love addicted, love avoidant. And it's like a combo. I need to learn more about it, me and my therapy. But I'm learning about it in therapy right now, that when you're super into somebody, it could be like, whoa, dude, take it easy. And then the second you're like, okay, dude, I'm out then. They're like, wait, wait, come back. It's a trick.

Yeah, and it's 100% one way and 100% the other way. Right. Yeah. And there's obviously that middle ground, but none of it is really, you're never really it's it's yeah and it's a hundred percent one way and a hundred percent the other way right yeah and there's obviously that middle ground but you know none of it is really you're never really settled and comfortable until you're in the thing and you're nobody's doing that and you can just come home and enjoy each other it comes down to respect because even in a power shift sometimes again like with with nori i mean i don't want to say he doesn't respect her uh consciously but he doesn't respect her subconsciously in a sense that we and we do that a lot and i think in a healthy relationship even though power can be somewhat adjusting that if two people truly respect each

other's time and value that that that will be on the same page but so much in relationships it there's it's hard to admit the person doesn't respect you because it makes you feel small. I think that's like a, I agree with what you're saying and maybe I'm just bucking it because I don't want to feel small.

But I don't, like I'm not sure if it's like a, like I guess you're right. Maybe it is that. It's unconscious. Think about it. And it's inconsiderate on a lot of levels that's what i'm saying consider it as a sign of disrespect yeah i'm not saying this person right i don't not going to their friends be like yeah i'm hanging out with this

person i don't really respect them but like your actions are more often actions speak a lot than words type of thing like if you respected me you wouldn't do this if you you truly subconsciously or consciously know that i will be there waiting you know me you wouldn't do this if you you truly subconsciously or consciously know that i will be there waiting you know that you can like convince me or like right machiavellian way like manipulate you know make me feel like again how often relationships does a person who has the power and control will somehow do a really great job of always making it seem like it's the other person's fault oh yeah you know like that happens all the time um and we it's it's a rabbit hole i i like the idea of bringing the idea of respect back up again and where that respect lies and and allowing it to be the simplicity of like

yo like you're not being considerate of my time or or what i'm going through it's like empathy respect all of those things i think need to be considered much heavily generally one of those tricky things that people have a really hard time admitting it's like even when you get cheated on a lot of people have a hard time admitting to other people they got cheated on because they feel embarrassed yet coincidentally the people who do have the ability to admit that feel empowered by saying well this is not my fault and they feel stronger when they can admit it to people just like it's easier like when you get over the hump of like admitting you to saying to your partner, you don't respect me. And they're like, no, no, you know, you don't. And that's fine. But I realize now that you don't respect me. And when someone's able to admit that not

only to themselves, but their partner, they feel immediately empowered and stronger. And yet it's so hard for people to get there because they fear that if they do say that, they like start judging themselves. It's this weird dynamic that I would encourage everyone to just try to look in the mirror. Guys, we are like fucking scientists up in here. We are good at this. Listen to this.

What's happening? We're magical wizards. But I think to what you're saying, Nick, like standing in your power and it's such like, I get real eye rolly with these like facebook terms now that's like stand in your power i've never heard of that but the more um the more i think about it i start i try to imagine myself lately as like this woman who's like i know you could be emotional and vulnerable you could still be vulnerable without like coming

from an emotional place all the time. And as a perfect example, she's just like, fuck you guys. Stop up. It's great. And being a powerful woman person,

like the, this like imagery of just like standing with a sword in the ground and just like saying the thing you need. And it's not frantic and it's not frenetic and it's not crazy. And it's not like, well, all these guys are here and I don't know. It's just like, Hey, no, not okay.

Not what I'll stand for. Not what I'm here for. Not what I need. And it feels so like when I'm talking about it with you guys, it feels so easy. But boy, I got trouble with it when I'm looking at someone's face that I like. Oh, boy. That's the hard thing because you're afraid that if you say what you want and need, that you're not, again, you're not going gonna get the answer that you want and you're afraid of the answer and people tell themselves all the time that maybe is better than no but there's also this sense of like hey look friend of mine pointed it out to me this was a couple relationships ago but like even if you word it in a way of like, hey, I hope this doesn't make,

it's sort of disarming, but like, hey, what I'm about to say might be the end of this. I hope it's not. That's not why I'm saying this, but here are the things I need. And if those aren't things that you're comfortable giving, then we're at an impasse.

And that's actually so respectful too to say that to the other person because then you're giving them the tools immediately you like you more well but you're also giving them the tools to know how to love you you can't do this to me anymore it's hot uh-huh you're giving them the tools to know how to love you and then if they don't so that's all you can do right is go like here's what i need and if a person doesn't meet those needs they're not a bad person that's just what that's just who you are and you need to honor that and if this and if nori needs this guy to show up for her more than he is he might be rad and he might be her best friend and he might be all those things. But if he's not showing up for her, which I mean, we spoke to her for two minutes, but he's clearly not.

Yeah. And the truth of the fact is, and she's going to find this out if she listens and really does take these steps, is that the only way to feel full and to stand with that sword in the ground is to take what you need for yourself. And you'll always feel better at the end of the day when you stand up for yourself and do those things. And I think a big mistake a lot of people make, certainly a mistake I made in the past was just being like, well, certainly I didn't know my, as we discussed, I didn't know my needs. But even once I did, just being like, nah, people don't change. This person is not for me. I need X and z and look at them they'll never they'll never do that and that's not fair either no because then it's like you have to bring it up but i think when i tell people like hey these are the um let's say in like the past like okay these

are the things i need but this person doesn't really seem like that kind of person in my brain it would always be like well then let's just call it. Like, this is clearly not compatible, but- You didn't give him an opportunity. That's not fucking fair. Exactly. Wow, guys. You're so small. I can't believe you're real. Your eyelashes are so long and beautiful.

Thanks. I use mascara. It's made by MAC. Oh, my God. Could you see me? I was looking deep at you for a second, and I was like,

God damn it. Anyway. We're friends. Well, I feel like we could just keep talking. I know. I'm here for it. Jackie, thanks so much. What a goddamn delight. Have fun, huh? Well I feel like we could just keep talking I know I'm here for it Jackie

Thanks so much What a goddamn delight Have fun Huh Don't forget to buy Natural Habits People NHOils.com 20% off your first time customer

It's my essential oil business Jackie Really I brought you some You did I love essential oils Follow me on Instagram His are amazing

You made a promise I did promise Jackie If she comes on Instagram. His are amazing. You made a promise. I did promise Jackie if she comes on this podcast that we will blow her Instagram up. Well, he just said, what do you want to plug? And I said, Glow Season 3.

And my Instagram. And my goddamn Instagram. Wait, what's your handle? It's at Jackie Tone. J-A-C-K-I-E-T-O-H-N. Okay, let's set a goal here. How many do you need by the end of this podcast?

75K. 75? Oh Oh you need 75k additional No that's the goal How many more do you need 100,000 So we just need 20,000 people who listen to this podcast To follow Jackie That seems like a simple ask It does not seem like a tough ask

I feel like And there's real shenanigans It's content rich I checked it out She is starring I can say starring in the hit TV show Netflix Season 3

Season 1 or 2 are already on Netflix If you haven't seen it, check it out A quick shout out also to Alice Simbree who I love so much and know very well and she's an angel and a half and I'm so happy

that you get to be around her often I do bring her on so much bring her back she's fabulous but thank you so much this has been fun

thank you for having me a lot of great conversations if you guys enjoy this obviously rate us on iTunes five stars and comment if you want and only if you have something nice to say about us

because we just honestly stopped listening to the negative my only comment that I'm going to leave in the comment section is that I'm terrified about how honest I was today isn't that lovely

oh Christ congratulations this is a big step forward were you that I mean you were great Nick's like bro to be honest I checked out every time you talked

You were great but I didn't feel like You were like Saying anything like offensive or No I don't think honesty necessarily is offensive But in my own life I think too as like A comic I'm just like you know I feel I feel privileged

That you were willing to open up I think It's wonderful you're doing great You were that was honestly I feel privileged that you were willing to open up. I think. It's wonderful. You're doing great. That was honestly so beautiful. So well said. And like I was saying earlier, just so emotionally awake and aware.

And what a gift it is to everybody listening. Jackie. I think that's how we bring it home. Just a tiny mouse. Well, next week. I don't know. Maybe Rochelle will be back. Who knows where that woman is. I, next week, I don't know, maybe Rochelle will be back from wherever she is. Who knows where that woman is?

I don't know. I don't know where she is. She's in contact. We have heard from her, so she's doing well somewhere in the world. This Rochelle vagary is weird.

Well, I got to know Rochelle when we started this podcast. Rochelle has an interesting life that we're peeling back the layers full bat yeah she's crazy i love it it's great i'm just getting to know her and i'm in love already all right well thanks for listening guys don't forget to follow jackie on instagram all that really matters this is the whole point of the i love a desperate plea it makes it good no just say please please What's wrong with it?

Again, it's content-rich. We're so proud. Go get it. There's so much happiness. Do yourself a favor. Yeah. For Jackie. Yeah.

How about it? Have a great week, guys. Bye. Thanks, Liz.