The Viall Files - E250 The Bachelor Recap With Zuri Hall

Episode Date: March 17, 2021

Access Hollywood’s Zuri Hall joins us today to recap the finale of The Bachelor and After The Final Rose. We begin with breaking down Matt’s decisions in making sure he was being his most authentic self and how his conversation with his Mom changed his perspective on the lifelong commitment he was about to make. Michelle asking for 2 minutes is another hot button topic today as well as Matt not showing up for a final date with Rachael. Zuri and Nick then move on to have a very real conversation about what was covered on AFR and have the bigger conversation around the controversies that have plagued Bachelor Nation this season.   You can also catch Zuri on her new iHeart Radio podcast: “Hot Happy Mess” which has new episodes every Monday http://hothappymess.com  “There is learning in that - sometimes you only understand once you see the pain it inflicts, once you know better you can do better.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Huzzah: http://www.drinkhuzzah.com use code VIALL for 20% off your order.  ShipStation: http://www.shipstation.com use promo code VIALL for a 60 day free trial.  FIGS: http://www.wearfigs.com use code VIALL15 for 15% off.    Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @zurihall See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files what a crazy week we're wrapping up the bachelor finale and we have a great show for you to recap all things Bachelor finale and AFR with the wonderful Zuri Hall is joining us today. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having me here, Nick. I'm so excited. It's so nice to be here. We have the team as well, Chrissy, Amanda, and Allie. have the team as well chrissy amanda and ally uh before we get into the recap uh just a quick reminder the uh the conversation really it's just breeze after the final rose and tell all because

she was you know cut out of both so we we got her it's a win for us so i don't i don't know um but uh brie was great and uh be sure to check that out as well as check out our Ask Nick episode if you're looking for some wonderful relationship advice and tragic stories about people's lives that we try to solve. Anything else before we get into the recap? Chrissy? Ellie? Amanda?

No. Well, let's do it. Zuri, before we get into the finale, what were your thoughts and feelings about the season itself, specifically the show? And then we'll talk about the outside of the show as well. There are two different things, right? I was excited for Matt.

Obviously, having someone who was new to the franchise entirely made it interesting to watch in a new way. It's like, okay, this person hasn't been, I don't want to say tainted by bad, like they're not in the cycle. They're not in the world yet. So I'm curious to know how this guy is going to react because he's not used to this. So

whatever I'm seeing on camera, on screen is, I'm going to assume, just totally genuine. You know, there's no ulterior motive at play. Sometimes that translated as awkward, but in a way that was also very endearing. And so I enjoyed it. If anything, my biggest sort of takeaway from this season,

outside of the obvious and all of the controversy that swirls around it, attachment theory. Do you know about attachment theory? Yeah, we've talked about it. We've had a few episodes talking about it i for whatever reason all i could think about particularly in moments of of last night's episode was avoidant dismissive behavior from matt and i say that with love as someone who is a recovering avoidant dismissive. So there were a couple moments there.

I was like, man, I feel for him. I can see that he knows he's not ready for this. And he's got some self-work to do in that area probably to get a little more comfortable with the idea of commitment. But then it's like, you got to give the guy a break because he got all the curveballs thrown at him. So at this point, just surviving the season was accomplishment enough. I totally agree with

that i've mentioned this before and and it's a nice segue to reiterate um i'm always like i am defensive of of my bachelor and bachelorette peers just about challenging it is to to lead that that franchise and for so many reasons matt was asked to deal with more than anyone before him. I mean, it's just being the first black bachelor. There's a pressure. I can't relate to an expectation that comes from everyone watching the show. And then you have to deal with the, uh, the controversy, uh, Rachel, uh, did what Chris Harrison said.

And then the pressure of matt to speak on that yeah and then from a production standpoint uh just the 35 women he was forced to meet like that's an insane amount forced to meet yeah yes oh my god what a hard life poor matt james and his 35 beautiful women don't it's no disrespect to the women. It doesn't even matter if they were the 35 most eligible. It's just like, how do you focus on anyone if you have to meet 35 people? And so, you know, we've talked about this with Bree. Like he spent more time just meeting people. Right.

Like, how do you do that? And I think in his position, you're just constantly like every day, Matt, it's like Matt was handed a grenade and asked to diffuse it and that's how it feels to be the bachelor sometimes okay that's that's obviously i can't understand that at all and when you put it like that it makes me all the more sure that i could never survive in this mansion um but i do again i have compassion for matt I really like him as a person. I'm just saying, if we're talking about relationship dynamics and some of the behavioral cues, like that's one thing that stood out to me because it resonated with me, right? Like I see it and I relate to it, but I like him and I know he had a tough task and more than one at the end and a lot of it, he didn't sign up for. So I don't envy him at all.

Yeah. He's been through a lot but i i agree with you you're like i think last night i think the overwhelming response from like a lot of people including myself is like you know we thought this before maybe but this isn't a guy who's ready to maybe get engaged or settle down or be in a serious relationship anytime soon. Forget about the show. Just, you know, if Matt stayed single for the next few years to, you know, figure out who, you know, he is or who he wants to be with, that wouldn't surprise me. And that's okay as well.

But it really shined a light on just maybe how unready Matt is for a relationship, which, you know, given that he was a bachelor, there's some irony there but yes and and I defer to you on this one I'm curious to know your thoughts because of that because watching you know last night's final episode I was like he doesn't seem ready at all but he was so in he he's as in love as he can understand love to be at this point because he's talked about the fact that he he doesn't think he's truly been in it before. And yet still suddenly, and this is before the controversy obviously blew up. He has these cold feet.

And so that's the only thing that made me wonder like, wait, is he at all ready for a commitment? Was he ready when he signed up? Was he kind of like, let's just see how this goes. I'm genuinely asking. That is not rhetorical.

I mean, just to be candid, I think why Matt was asked to be The Bachelor, whether he was ready for love or not, was on the bottom of the list of considerations, right? And that's always the case to some degree.

This is a TV show and they're going to pick their lead based off a lot of factors. Yeah. I think they prefer their leads to be ready for love sometimes. But if they're not. And if they're not, they'll work with what they have. You know, Matt was named The Bachelor during a time where social justice was talked about.

It was, those franchises were under a lot of pressure for being more diverse they got themselves in this position by having 24 seasons of the bachelor before them and never casting a black lead and so i think they and then you have the pandemic right you have they casted matt for claire season uh then the pandemic hit then that got pushed right and and so it wasn't just that i think they ideally wanted matt to go on the on the bachelorette and right right the world just kind of blew up the perfect storm or imperfect storm and so you know i think they had peg matt right i was talking about this with brie off, just kind of, you know, she had questions. My guess is when they casted Matt on Claire season, they had in their, like, this could be our next lead. But I think the show's not as planned out as people sometimes like to believe, right?

Because things can change. If they thought Michelle was going to be as wonderful as we all have come to realize Michelle is and now she's the one of the next bachelorettes they would not have had her sit in a hotel for two weeks for four episodes while we watched a bunch of unfold yeah I think Michelle surprised the producers as much as anyone right and so that's kind of my point is but they had Matt pegged as a potential candidate and then with the pandemic and all these things happening, they named Matt the bachelor. And I don't think there was a lot of discussions about what's your dating life? How ready are you?

Let's walk through it. They named him the bachelor, then got to know their bachelor and found out this is a guy who has a kind of an avoidant tendency when it comes to relationships. So I guess let's have that be our main theme. Yeah. Yeah. And I was going to say, I appreciated how that played out through the season, right? As someone who's like, wow, I feel like it's me with no hair in like, you know, like my mid twenties maybe before I got over it. And so I've actually appreciated him being open and candid about that. And I really respected the sit down that he had with Chris Harrison towards the end and said, look, I don't know where I stand.

I don't know how I feel right now. And I'm not going to move forward with a commitment that I can't fully invest in. And then the part with the ring where he's kind of it was a little on the nose, but it tugged at my heartstrings. It really did. Because, you know, when he brought up his father and, you know, what the ring represents and how seriously he takes it, you've got to respect someone who can take it seriously enough to just not do it.

Happy ending be damned if he can't follow through. So I respected that. Yeah. And what about his mom? The conversation with his mom, that obviously had the huge effect of unlike what it's like her basically telling him love doesn't last played out on the show. At least like it had the biggest turnaround of where he was to what he ended up being. Totally. And I guess going back to Zuri's point first, it's,

it is interesting. I don't know if, how the show is evolving or if it's the show gets any credit or they're just going with what Matt's giving them. But, you know, it's weird. This is a show about love. This is a show about getting engaged and all these things. But to your point, like love these days is not what it used to be

and dating is not what it used to be. And we're learning about, you know, things like attachment theory. what it used to be and we're learning about you know things like attachment theory and and and we very few of us come from these idealistic families and and upbringings and and we all families are kind of weird and we all have our bullshit and we're all dealing with it and things like fuck boys and ghosting and all these things are out there and and that that's dating today yeah right and so uh is it the new norm to not like i kind of wonder if engagements uh as long as the show keeps going yeah and we'll you know they you know there's always talks with all the controversy but now we're having even another bat trip season so got double whammies back to back. Is engagement going to be

as much of an expectation as it used to be? I don't think it will. And I'm glad about that. I mean, it doesn't take away that much from the story, from immersing yourself in these women and these men and their lives.

At the end of the day, so many of the engagements end without a wedding anyway. I don't know that any of us are really expecting that everyone who gets engaged follows through with the wedding. And I don't think it takes away from enjoying the show that much, you know? So I kind of appreciate that the pressure's off for that. I don't mind just watching and seeing who they choose. Honestly, suspending reality when I was watching Rachel and Matt's final moments you know you had the oh no he's

not gonna propose moment and then the oh wait but they're still together and so for like five very fleeting seconds I was able to be like you know good for them you know they're still oh wait never mind never mind stand down um but I think that's something that could continue without really doing much harm to the franchise I agree all right I think it's just the show adjusting now with that said back to chrissy's point um it makes like that's what's interesting right is that here's matt being realistic his mom just saying i don't care what these producers are telling you man like hey like you don't have to do this at the same time you couldn't help but listen to his mom you've heard the story and wonder despite all the the level-headedness that came from his mom you know was it his mom projecting you know some of the things that she's had her experiences the

hurt she's had to experience and then then how much, you know, our parents projecting things that happened to them onto us and we carry that weight with us. Yeah. How much did that play a role in his decision? Despite, again, you know, the juxtaposition of like that's, that was his mom, what she said was very grounded, very realistic and all normal. Right. And, but, but was it also just about Matt or was it a projection it was kind of a fascinating you know I think a little bit of both right I think what she said whether it was projection or or not reaffirms the stories that he's been telling himself about himself and

who he is and how he is when it comes to love for most of his adult life probably. And obviously his parents shaped that and her kind of being like, love's not enough. You can peace out if you want to. I don't really know if you're sure about this. For someone who already is on the fence when it comes to commitment sometimes, that's all you need to deactivate like 100%. So if you're already looking for a way out, or you're already starting to feel the walls closing in, and maybe you could move forward with this commitment, or maybe not. But someone gives you an out, and it's someone

you love so much and clearly are so protective over. And clearly, you don't want to repeat the past mistakes that you feel your parents or specifically your father made. Oh, that's all the deactivation strategy I need. I'm out. Like I'd be out if I was in his situation. Because it was such a, you know, with Matt, it was him being new to this experience. You kind of, and I think every person who goes on the show, it happens where there's this kind of conscious choice to just say, you know what?

I want to let this bubble kind of consume me. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to just go for it, you know? And so you saw Matt just like, Hey, I'm,

I'm looking for a wife. I'm looking for a fiance, whatever. Yeah. I'll go for it. Yeah. And, and,

and I believe there was an earnestness and sincerity on Matt's part until he's in this bubble, he's isolated, he's alone. All these people are new to him. He doesn't have any relationships with his producers prior to coming in. Right. Like someone before who might have been on The Bachelorette.

And then he meets his mom and his brother for the first time in weeks. And his mom's just like, snap out of it. Wait. So do you think from your perspective, was that a good thing? Was it good to snap him out of this bubble?

Because life wouldn't be happening for him and whoever he chose in that bubble. So is it better that he saved or that, excuse me, that his mother saved two people the heartbreak? It's hard to say with Matt. Probiotic. Your digestive health is a key to great health in general.

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That's ShipStation.com. Enter code VIAL. Make shipstation.com click on the microphone at the top of the page type in v-i-a-l that's shipstation.com enter code v-i-a-l make ship happen he he's clearly very close with his mother yeah right and his mom said in an interview she's like you know i forget the exact wording but she's like i'm gonna meet these women and then i'm gonna let matt make his own decision after i tell him my opinion and then you know it was like i'll let matt make his own decision after i tell him what i think but he's gonna know what i think then he can decide after i sure it's just like so is matt gets to make his own show you clearly his you know there's a love there between him and his mom and everyone, you know, like it just depends.

You know, when I was the bachelor, I was a little older than Matt and my relation with my parents was different. I have a lot of siblings. And so like I've my my relation with my parents became more of a friendship, you know, in my adult life. So by the time I was a bachelor, I was like, yeah, I'm kind of, I'm curious what you guys think, but I'm making my own decision. You know, like when I met my parents and introduced them to Vanessa and Raven, I wasn't looking to help them, have them help me make a decision it was like I hope you like these women yeah and I hope you like who I'm gonna pick however I'm not really interested

in your take to be totally honest you know because it was that was you know and that is a level of immaturity when it comes to not to imply that he's immature in some way but that is at a certain point you grow out of you know needing parental approval for certain things and it seems like well i i will say it's understandable that matt hasn't had that yet because if you've never really been in love with someone and really been like i'm fighting for you regardless world be damned you haven't had that uncomfortable moment with a parent where it's like thank you for your opinion but i'll be doing this anyway and for matt to already be on the fence about how he's feeling i just don't think he was committed enough emotionally to either lady yeah to say it's worth you know cutting the

cord yeah you really saw matt struggle throughout the season of trying to kind of you know really get in the pocket so to speak to really it's almost like he was convincing himself which is tough to watch though because a part of you is like you don't have to do this you don't have to choose anyone if you don't want to which is why in the end i'm glad with how it played out i am i mean obviously after the final rose is kind of its own conversation um but self-contained to that episode i'm glad with how it played out because i feel like he was true to his convictions i think his mom certainly moved the needle but i think deep down he wasn't ready i would agree you know uh that and i don't know matt that well but yeah i think his mom almost kind of gave him permission to kind of question

the bubble that he was in and if Matt thought he was really ready for an engagement he probably would have anyways but in that world you're just like that's that's what in that it's not like all of a sudden you know people are on The Bachelor being being more realistic. It's just times have changed. I have spoken this before. There was a time when The Bachelor, if he didn't get engaged or pick a woman, he was crucified by Bachelor Nation as being ungrateful.

And how could you say no to all these amazing women? So it was like, I'm not doing that. I am picking somebody. Be damned. We'll figure it out. Go get this like, I'm not, I'm not doing that. You know, like I am picking somebody be damned of like, you know, we'll figure it out. And so I'm, I'm glad that, you know,

not only the, like just are the fans are, are thinking this is nuts. Like it's okay. Yes. Let's date. That makes sense. And,

and that way Matt, they know Matt and Rachel are not together. And I can say this personally, it's like my relationship with Vanessa was very real, but I don't really think of her in my heart as my ex-fiance. That wouldn't surprise me though, honestly, in relation to the to the production but but why specifically for you is that the case do you feel like post engagement it didn't feel engaging

enough for lack of a better phrase i'd be curious what my peers have thought yeah i'm pretty sure having had some sort of conversation with them that you know i you know vanessa and i had this conversation early on that like we got engaged for the show even vanessa had these like her and i had conversations she's like you know i said this to andy when i was i was like hey i really like you yeah but like if you don't want to get engaged i'm cool with that you know and at the time she was like i don't want to be the first bachelorette to not be asked to get engaged i was like okay okay fine yeah yeah but so afterwards it's like you know vanessa and i had this like

i love you i you know the feelings they're genuine real but we don't know each other and if this works out i picture myself reproposing, you know? And I know, I think like Jordan Rogers has said that about Jojo. Yeah. Because like, yeah,

it's, you want to like, there's a show element. And it's like, if in a year I'm like, you know what? Let's, because it's always like,

it's every time someone gets engaged, they do the press tour. And it's always like, have you planned a date? I don't know this man's middle name. I am the press. I am press. No one's ever in the history of the show.

No one's ever been like, actually, yeah, December 12th. Invites in the mail, baby. Everyone's like, no, not really. We'll see. We're taking it one day at a time. Two years later, still getting home yeah you know yeah and um so that's why i don't and again that's not a criticism to vanessa i don't i think i'm assuming she feels the exact same way about me but you know maybe that's silly i mean no i hate to say this for neil lane because who

knows maybe there won't be like a neil Lane moment going forward because maybe engagements won't be as important to the show's success as before yeah well that's okay because now he could be a therapist what that's okay because now he's a love therapist Dr. Lane Neil's the greatest he's I always enjoyed my time with you now he's got these like extended like beats where he's like tell me tell me about your love let's just think you're gonna engage tell me everything well my guess is that whole conversation was like hey man um i know you don't want to get engaged but we have a contract with neil so we could just what i'm gonna need you to do just take the pear shape just use the pear shape tough sell the pear shape let's

break down the episode a little bit before we get in the AFR I mean you know what more can we say about Michelle other than she really is America's sweetheart every time she really is on the screen you're just like god you're endearing gosh she's the sandra bullock of bachelor nation really yeah

that's great i like the title yeah she was just so open and emotional in a very genuine way she's stunning and just so smart and i'm just like god you just want her to win you just really root for her and i was surprised wait we're not doing afr that yet though right i'm trying to stay it's fine whatever is it if you're like you already messed up the start of my podcast it's uh we bounce around a lot okay okay cool i'm a jim and i so there's gonna be a lot of all over the place um in the afr uh, I was surprised when she said that she just asked for a couple of minutes to speak with Matt for closure and that he denied that request. That was news, man. That was news.

And so when Matt said that, when Rachel, I'm sorry, when Michelle said that, my first reaction was, did that really happen right and what i mean by that really happened i i wondered if for i i had i i believed michelle's point of view but it's entirely possible and i love my producer friends it's entirely possible she asked the producers can i talk to matt and and they told her uh matt doesn't want to and maybe maybe they didn't present to the matt now i'm convinced they did because he apologized he apologized they aired that that wasn't live i can't imagine the show would put themselves on blast if it was not true yeah so but in that world those things you know because it was such a like yeah damn you said no right right because i've been in matt's position and i that didn't i was surprised i i

feel like i would have been like yeah sure i feel like a toll like i'm not gonna lie it felt a little off brand for the matt we know and love that's nicely put nicely put. Because Matt has been so considerate and gracious. And like, I'm going to just let you. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, exactly. Just hit me with a thank you for sharing. I want you to share. So just keep sharing.

And he didn't want Michelle to share anymore. Yeah, yeah. It made me wonder. I have no idea. This is purely speculative. But if it was one of those things where he just needed to compartmentalize and that was already difficult and he didn't want to go back there because he had to focus on this Rachel thing or if,

yeah, I guess that's really it. I mean, I don't think there's an or. Couple reasons why you should get fixed. What? We have essential workers that have always been essential and specifically our health co-workers

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from the stress I endeared from the final two weeks of being the bachelor. It's a miserable time, so I don't doubt that Matt was just an emotional, physical mess. But still, it's like, wow, you said. Two minutes, bro. I'm good. It hurts. It hurts. Yeah.

And yeah, we didn't get much of an answer from Matt other than, and I guess maybe sometimes what can you say other than, you're right. I'm sorry. I'm wrong. I was sorry. I'm wrong. I was sorry. It's hard for Matt to, you know, he couldn't go on AFR and be like, you don't know what it's like to be the bachelor. And I was so stressed out because no one has sympathy for you in that moment. Right.

And maybe it wasn't a valid excuse because I think we're all like, I mean, couldn't you just have talked to her? Yeah. Like, I mean, couldn't you just have talked to her? Yeah, maybe he felt like because he did say in his apology during AFR, you know, if I'd known that you were this upset about it or, you know, going through what I now realize you were going through, I would have taken it in a minute. So maybe he felt like we've had the conversation. It was awkward. It hurt. But let's rip the bandaid off. I'm trying to see a world in which he's doing it

because he thinks it's for the best. You know, you break up with someone off camera in everyday life. You have the speech. It is what it is. People say what they need to say or so you assume. Once you walk out of there, if I'm trying to walk out of there and into my future, whatever that is, I don't know if I really want to revisit the combo. And if he didn't realize that she was so emotional and so hurt after. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hear you,

but in real life we tend to, at least in our, in a granted, like it's hard to compare like for Michelle in that world. I know it felt in that moment, probably like a guy she'd been dating for a couple years kind of thing right for the intensity of it right right and usually in those real life relationships there is a couple like breakup conversations no doubt because listen i have had a few michelle moments

in my life where i'm like hold on i just need you to run that back real quick we need to break this down i need you to just i need you to sit there and listen to me say it all because i need to get it out yeah and that's the hardest part about that show is that when those relationships end that's it you're just like it's over wow and michelle's just like wait huh i just gave you a fucking gift right matching jerseys and now you're leaving the jerseys in my room as you walk away and i have to stare at them keep it all brutal let's just walk through the day from michelle's point of view day starts out she just met matt's parents matt mom's cries because of this beautiful conversation and when you make a mom cry

you're thinking you're in there i'm you're in mrs james reporting for duty i am good i made her cry you know i made mom's i made andy's mom cry. I thought I was like, I'm kidding. This is it. Done. She goes, what do you call it? Spadunking off of a wall. What is she?

Repelling. Not spadunking, sir. I don't know. Matt is asking for kisses yeah everything's fine great i loved it good you know it didn't seem like there wasn't any of those like matt's being weird i don't know why moments she goes into the night she's got two gifts for matt one's a jersey for her she has all these like teammate and we team name yeah it was like a speech before the big game like you guys and it sucks is this like you know and that's that's

that's what sucks about this show is it's unrealistic it's bizarre it's fast paced and the playbook on the show has always been you know it, it's how the bachelor or the bachelorette gets out of these awkward conversations. And it's kind of bullshit because it doesn't happen in real life like they pretend. It's like, well, now I realize because you said you love me

or because you gave me a gift or that you were so open. Hearing that, I now realize we can't be together. And I just... It's tough. When does that ever happen where all of a sudden a light goes off? Right. It's like if I were to go home and Natalie would be like,

hey, you know, just so you know, like, I love you. And you're the greatest. I'm like, hearing that, I hate you. Yeah, I'm out. I mean, I guess it has happened in the past but not to the degree it seems that happened for everyone who's ever been the bachelorette and that's kind of the

out that you get and it's so fucked up in reality and especially for someone in Michelle's position it's such a like a punch in the face literally I mean it quite literally feels like that no figuratively literally it's not I get a punch in the face literally i mean it quite literally feels like that no figure literally it's not i get i know the difference figuratively it feels like a punch

in the face and to michelle's point she's like she probably didn't even like it probably felt to her like what just happened yeah you could see it on her face is it the guilt guilt for what for like as the bachelor is there a guilt there that you're like this person i know i don't want of course there's a guilt and i am like gonna tear them apart of course there's a guilt you feel sick i mean that's where the stress comes from like you and they're like i love you you're like go i do because the guilt is to save yourself i don't know the answer i can't confirm this from anyone and certainly matt but i would bet a large sum of money that matt knew that whole day he was going to break up with michelle i would agree you know i would agree he didn't just get a

jersey and be like now i know you know and so he you know was playing the role oh that's the the really hard part of and that's not fun and and you're you're really torn up because you have the pressure and this is the show and there's these rules and you're trying to be you know a good employee literally and you're also trying you're trying to be as nice as possible and you're trying to like oh you know and there is something like there's also some truth to the fact that well it hurts in the moment i go back to when when caitlin broke up with me so mad so mad i wanted to push her in the pool i'm so mad i was just like how could you do this you knew how like you you you fucking knew like i asked you not to do this but if it weren't for her allowing me to do that say what i it was my best moment i had i'm not sitting here today if caitlin doesn't

allow me to like be my vulnerable self and let america sympathize with me and all we do is love michelle more yeah for and that i don't know if people like want to accept that, that is a reality. And so that is something that those are conversations you have as a lead and it's a hard to accept it in the, in the moment, but you kind of take one for the team and, and, and Matt is going to get criticized and, and, and, and Caitlin got criticized. That's the hard part. I don't think people realize is that like you do that and you, and you, you know,

you're hurting him in the, in the short term, you know, you're hurting them, but it is true that there is a payoff for some, sometimes. And it's, it's,

it's such a fucked up. Yeah. And it's really, it's a real challenge. I hope no one's crucifying Matt for that though. At the end of the day, someone has to go home, right?

Someone's heart will be broken if the theory is, you know, we're both in love with you and he only picks one. I don't, there's no space

that's reasonable to me where he is crucified. I mean, maybe you should have picked her and not Rachel. And again, this is purely

in the context of the finale, not everything going on outside. But I mean, he's a good guy. He seems sweet enough. He seems like he's trying to make the best out of a very difficult situation. I feel super bad for Michelle, but also super excited now because you're right.

The payoff is hello to our next bachelorette. She so deserves it. I'm happy for her. Totally. And so that is just the really tough part of that situation and just kind of just trying to shed some light on the mindset of where matt is but i totally empathize with michelle in that moment and why why she feels so blindsided why she wanted to go to matt and i love that she said i wasn't trying to change your mind right i accepted your decision i just wanted

to like i actually you could tell from michelle she's like i actually wanted to have the breakup conversation that i didn't feel like i had because i truly didn't know what the hell was going on in that moment you know i was like honestly the more i think about it now damn that was kind of fucked up because this whole day i'm just thinking about how the day went, right? And if there had been warning signs, maybe the repelling wasn't quite the heart to heart that it kind of felt like it was.

So truly in the moment where he was like, yeah, I can't do this. That felt like the first moment that she was getting, I can't do this energy. And two minutes later he was gone. So when I put myself in that situation and in her shoes, that is a gut punch.

Yeah. Oh man, that's, yeah. I've never doubted my mind that Michelle got back to her hotel room and didn't know what happened. Yeah. And you're just sitting with that. And when you're blindsided by anything,

whatever you said, you're just like, that's not how I felt. That's not what I wanted to say. You start, you start, your blood pressure goes down, you start calming down and then you start thinking about what you would have said.

Had you like been in the right head space. And I think that's, I mean, I don't know for certain, but my guess is, I mean, very, very confidently.

That's why Michelle wanted that time just to just get it off her chest just to express so that she could move on right and um and i yeah i wish you know i wish michelle would have would have gotten that and you know usually that stuff doesn't happen off camera though you know so it had michelle gotten that it would have been filmed i don't know whether we would have seen it or not and and maybe that's why Matt didn't feel like Michelle was going to get that authentic moment anyways. I don't know. That's just a guess.

Yeah, yeah. I defer to you, former Bachelor, on this one because I'm just like, I don't know what hurts for me. But I do feel for them. But Matt, before we get into AFR, it's always like when Chris comes to Rachel's door, what a mind fuck for Rachel because she has no idea Michelle's not there. Chris comes up, he's literally leaning on the door.

As one does. It's a really weird pose. It's like, hey, Rachel. Super cashier. Hey. I feel like he noticed it too because he like quickly like moved down it's like wait what am i yeah what am i doing yeah um sometimes you go in with an idea about something's gonna translate physically yeah hey you're really relaxed here bro like everything's fine uh chris tells rachel that matt doesn't want to go a date

with her if you're rachel you're like i'm going home he's in love with michelle yeah i thought it was a particularly weird ending to i mean for so many reasons but this just looking at the episode yeah no final date no so like all right uh rachel matt wants to see you now by the way put this gown on yeah yeah it was very sudden i mean by then i was like cool so no one's getting engaged there there will be no proposal matt is going to gently let her down in the engagement department and then they'll be in a relationship. Yeah. You could really see Rachel's brain working where she's like, did I win?

What's happening here? What? I don't know. Did you get the ring? No. Who was Michelle? Has anyone talked to Michelle? It was so unclear.

Yeah. And you could tell she was like, I't i don't know like and then finally he's like yeah i want to keep doing this yeah she's like okay it was a very bizarre ending yes yeah so that was that was super weird um but let's get into afR, which it was overall a tough watch for many reasons. One, you know, because there was, I mean,

what's new is there's no, you know, with the pandemic, there's no studio audience. Right. Which I don't think people appreciate just how it was already going to be an uncomfortable conversation, a tough watch, given the context of the conversation.

Yeah. But when you don't have a studio audience no one to cut away to there was an eeriness a very you know they and it made sense why they added like a soundtrack at moment in moments but even that made it feel really i didn't love that but i i get why they did that because the the soundtrack added a level of in of it not being authentic because it just reminded you of the TV show that you knew was edited. Right, right, right. That's just.

Yeah. No, I would agree. I think. But I get it. You know, otherwise it's just quiet. You needed something. Otherwise it's just so quiet. It's still TV at the end of the day and just watching two to three people talk in otherwise

dead silence for as long as the episode went, I just think from a production standpoint, probably wasn't ideal. But yeah, not having an audience definitely made it harder to watch. So, I mean, what were your thoughts? I mean, I guess I want to start by what were your thoughts going into the AFR and what were your expectations as a woman of color? Did you look at it in a different lens? Like what, did you have expectations going in and then what were your thoughts about the episode itself? I didn't have any expectations,

but I certainly had hopes of what would happen. I'll be honest. One of those hopes was maybe I even slightly expected it. I thought maybe it would happen, but that Chris would pop up, right? That there might be an uncomfortable conversation with a black man, you know, pun intended, and Emmanuel and Chris would sit down

maybe at the end of the episode or somewhere and just kind of navigate, begin a public conversation about a controversy that in Chris's situation started publicly. I just felt like that would be a really great opportunity to kind of build on the GMA interview, you know, where he went on and apologized and kind of talk about it. What's the work we're doing here? What am I learning?

What are these epiphanies? So I just thought that would have been nice to see. And I thought that maybe they would have done that. So I was surprised, honestly, when I didn't see him at all. I agree. I asked a couple of producers, like, did you guys ever think about that? Because it seems like, to your point, kind of obvious. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Emmanuel, his whole brand having uncomfortable conversations. Here is Chris, who's, you know, made this mistake. He, you know, he has apologized, but has talked about the work and, you know, in these situations and rightfully so, a lot of people want to say, okay, you apologized.

You're learning. What have you learned? Like we want to hear it and we want to hear it in a conversation. You know, there are a lot of, you know, the GMA interview, it was what it was. I think I'm surprised, you know, even like publicists, like these short form interviews that are highly edited and cut up is, is, is, is that the way to get your message across anymore? I think a lot of people thought the interview fell very flat i mean yeah

and i i looked at it just like i mean what what what could chris have said for us to be like you know what we believe him we believe him yeah i just don't know if he could have in that no god no you know and so to your point it would have i would have loved to see him sit down with Emmanuel and have Emmanuel ask him some very pointed questions that he asked Rachel, that he had asked Matt and see what Chris had to say. And ultimately, I don't know if that was presented to Chris or not. It didn't happen. Now, whether that's AFR or maybe we see it in a different platform, maybe that's on Emmanuel's show. But you would think that would be the move for Chris. Right, right. And you know, while I would love if he maybe sat

down on a manual show, it just kind of is a bummer because it's a part of this conversation, right? It's a part of Bachelor Nation and the Bachelor audience. And so I would have loved for the franchise to bring that conversation to the audience to hear that and understand that as opposed to the reverse where Chris goes on a manual show and maybe has, you know, a sit down on his YouTube series. I think that would be great. I definitely think now he should do it. But then it's it's a it's almost like the uh the the heavy lifting the conversation the self-work is being outsourced to emmanuel's platform yeah we've done what we are gonna do in the franchise when it comes to this if y'all want to do deeper you know work go talk about it over there i'm just saying optically that's what it might be. I'm not implying that that's what they feel. No, I agree. I mean, it's...

It was an opportunity. They didn't take it. It seems like a missed opportunity. It's unfortunate. Because there are still a lot of conversations and more debates. And unfortunately, the Chris Harrison situation, I guess we can...

That's what we call it. It's created an even greater divide. It feels political it and um to your point if that chris coming out and having this conversation with emmanuel could have been almost a healing opportunity and chris reinforcing to his supporters, you can support me without feeling like you're against anyone else, especially like Rachel, Rachel Lindsay. And I think that's a really important message that needs to be reinforced over

and over because, you know, I've, I've seen it on the internet. I see it in my DMS that it doesn't seem to be getting through to people. And I think it's because, you know, yeah, we're not bringing these parties together as much.

And so I agree. I wish, I think that was a big missed opportunity. Yeah, same, same, same. Getting into what we did see at AFR. Well, how did you feel like Emmanuel did? I thought Emmanuel did well. I mean, they're big shoes to fill, right? And the entire nation is watching How did you feel like Emmanuel did? I thought Emmanuel did well. I mean, there are big shoes to fill, right?

And the entire nation is watching and the entire nation has an opinion. And it's a very polarizing time, you know, for a show that traditionally had not been particularly polarizing. So for him to step into these shoes and some people think that he shouldn't be there because Chris should still be there. Right. And then other people are just curious to see how this guy is going to go. And also he's new to the franchise in this sense. He's not a familiar face to Bachelor Nation. It's just an intimidating job. So I think he did the best he could with what he had to work with. I do. I wish the conversations had gone a little deeper. And I know that Emmanuel has the capacity and the depth for that. We've seen those conversations in his series. I don't know if that was a production thing.

We've only got this much time thing. We might need these questions to be a little more softball because like, how deep are we really going to dive right now? I don't know. So I would have loved for the conversation to have gone a little deeper, particularly with Emmanuel and Rachel. When he asked her, you know, you know, people are going to ask, are you doing the work? Have you grown? What's happening here?

And then her response was, you know, I could say that I'm reading these books and doing it, but I've just got to do the work. I was like, no, wait, wait, wait. Just could say that i'm reading these books and doing it but i've just got to do the work i was like no wait wait wait just literally say that like please tell me that i would love to hear a book title like this podcast what are we talking about here so that part like i was i was trying to rock with her really like i am i'm not a fan of cancel culture i believe that when people make mistakes if they can own them and learn from them, that forgiveness is possible and should be encouraged in most situations. And this is one of those. If it really felt like she was doing the work, I felt like in that answer, I started to become more cynical and start to wonder if anything was actually happening behind the scenes. And I

don't want to imply I do not know what she is or isn't doing. She may feel that she's just not ready to speak publicly about it because it's a lot to process and it's a lot to fully understand. But it did feel a little bit like a band-aid. Her answer felt like I could say all of that stuff, but I just need to do it. I would have appreciated hearing what she's in the middle of learning how to do. appreciated hearing what she's in the middle of learning how to do. I'm not looking for, you know, her to be able to write a dissertation on, you know, the old South and all of its implications and, you know, what happened before 1865 and after. It's more about the black

experience, right? The fact that she didn't understand why it caused that much hurt or how deep those roots are. The fact that she is in love with a black man who clearly was very hurt up on that stage, even still, you know, the fact that he wouldn't even embrace her at the end when Emmanuel kind of suggested or prompted one final hug goodbye shows that he was hurt. And Rachel acknowledged that.

She said, you know, as I sat with this, I realized just how bad it had to be because of how much it hurt you. So there's learning in that, right? And I'm in an interracial relationship. These are conversations that are had in different capacities, in different ways. But sometimes you only understand once you see the pain it inflicts. And so I will never, I wouldn't knock her for that because when you know better, you can do better, but until you know better, you can't. And so I can extend grace in that situation. She didn't know until she knew. I think it's more about, okay, if you take dating this black man seriously, if you take being in this interracial relationship

in America seriously, you might want to start doing some heavy lifting and reading those books. Not about, you know, the antebellum South, about being black in America. Watch the documentaries, you know, learn about mass incarceration and what it does to black men and black families. And, you know, I won't get into the specifics of Matt and his parents, but there's work to be done around understanding the black experience so that you can move into new interactions and new experiences with more compassion and understanding. And so it's less about the photo and like beating a dead horse and more about what work are you doing so that moving forward, you don't find yourself in different situations like that

because you're really starting to empathize and have compassion for someone whose experience and upbringing and history is so unlike yours. Yeah, totally. And I mean, that's things that even in the past year, people have asked me like, what have you learned, right? Because even I'll like hey i'm just i'm just trying to learn yeah yeah and one i think

more than anything what i've learned is how much racism still exists in our country more than i think most people wanted to acknowledge and admit i think you know growing up in wisconsin you're just like and you watch movies like the help or or our time to kill or higher learning you're like you know what that stuff doesn't happen anymore like how could it and then you're just like yeah it doesn't happen you know and and we watch the news and we go on the internet and and and with the times that we're in you're just like and and kind of the point where it didn't just start happening again i mean racism i think is on the rise for a lot of reasons but it's also been going on and i think that's something that a lot of white people and people like myself who grew up in kind of these isolated communities just

kind of i don't know conveniently ignored or or didn't pay attention to and I think that's eye-opening and you know you watch like you talk the 13th on Netflix yeah I watched that this summer and completely changed you sit there and think about what I thought as a young man growing up and as a teenager and why you know black men were in jail you know because you're just like oh well you know when you're younger what'd you do if you're in jail you must have deserved it i i don't know i'm not in jail i didn't do anything wrong and and and you watch that and you're just like you feel a lot of guilt you feel shame you feel defensive and and very eye-opening and I think those are the things that I think as a society we're we're still right grappling with we certainly are like I'm from Ohio and I

you know I went to an all-white school really I was the only black girl for the last I think about five or six years of that experience from seventh grade through twelfth grade and you know I have black friends I have white friends obviously I'm black and grew up in an all black family. So I grew up sort of bouncing between two worlds culturally. And I very much was a black young woman in an all white space a lot of times. And a lot of times it was just pure ignorance. And I say that to say a lot of my white friends just didn't know better until there was a me in their life for them to realize, oh, wait, you've gone through what? Your parents did what? Your mom, when she was born, they literally kicked your grandmother out of the

hospital as soon as your mom was born and sent her across the street to a drafty room because she wasn't supposed to be born at the white hospital. But she came a little. My mom is like 60 something. That is not that long ago. But until you hear your black friends or your black acquaintances or black colleagues telling their stories and assuming you're open to listening, you don't really realize because it hasn't been your experience. And it's OK that it wasn't your experience. because it hasn't been your experience. And it's okay that it wasn't your experience. We wish that we could say the same. It's just about extending grace and having compassion when you understand it. And it's about asking questions and having those tough conversations. And 2020, particularly as difficult as it was to be Black period, but last year, I was encouraged by a lot

of the conversations that I was having with, you know, my white friends, people from school having conversations with me and not being like, teach me everything. Tell me what to do, because that's the last thing that a black person was. Y'all were tired. We're tired. I don't I don't have the energy. Right. Like, oh, my God, Google it. I don't know. I'm tired. But when they would come to me and be like, you know what, I read this book or I saw When They See Us, I couldn't believe that when I was watching those kids stories play out, you know, and now the exonerated five and what that was like, it blew my mind that that could even happen. No one told them about it. And our history books don't reflect accurately the black experience. And so where would you learn this stuff if you've only ever grown up

around the white people who you've only ever grown up around? So people are starting to understand and that's encouraging. And I hope the conversations continue. But yeah, it's definitely a difficult time, but it's a necessary time for all of us. Yeah. And to your point about which I thought is a good one and really important to know, you know, I think sometimes white people are like, oh, my God, I don't want to get it wrong or I want to speak out. But I'm afraid that when I speak out because cancel culture is real, if I speak out the wrong way, it'll it'll do the reverse. And, you know, there's a quote that I'll butcher because I always butcher quotes that I attempt to say. But essentially, you know, speak even if your voice shakes, right? Like,

even if you're scared, even if you're unsure, speak, right? And last summer, particularly at peak Black Lives Matter and all of the social unrest, what broke my heart more than anything was just certain people staying silent. Like, I don't care what you say, try to find some words in this moment. And that's just the start. I'm not saying that that's enough, but that's the start. And so I would just encourage people on both sides of the line, black, white, whatever, to just extend grace to one another. Because if we all feel like we can't have a conversation and disagree and find common ground, we're not going to get anywhere. And it really scares me how polarizing the world is now and how it's like the loudest people get the most attention. And I feel like there's such a spectrum and you have extremes on both sides. And those are the

people who are the loudest. So that's what we hear. And that's what we assume is a reflection of our nation and the general sentiment. And it's just, it's not true. It's not true. At least for me, when I talk to people on the ground, black, white, you know, and other, other races and ethnicities who are, you know, experiencing this, but the loudest are the ones who, who get the play. And very often it makes it feel like a very polarizing situation where I feel like a lot of people do want to understand they just want to be able to have those conversations I totally agree and I think the one thing that worries me sometimes is talk about cancel culture people the canceling of conversations you know where you're I, I think sometimes these conversations are happening, not in public.

And that's good because we shouldn't always put it on the internet. It doesn't have to always, and we have to just have these conversations in spaces where it feels safe, where we can say, Hey, listen, I want to ask why. And I'm really afraid I'm going to sound ignorant by just not knowing. But I want to understand because I don't want to just be ignorant. And that can be scary sometimes. But on a public platform, I hope these conversations can happen because, you know, when people have these platforms, it's, it seems to be like, to your point, only the extremes are willing to go out there and say their piece because either they don't care or aren't worried about, you know, upsetting their opposing point of view and maybe they're embracing it. And maybe there's a performative aspect to saying something they know will

stir the pot. And then you just have people, you know, disagreeing and agreeing. And, and that's, you know, that's why I said the Chris Harrison thing.

Like there's a conversation here. I agree. Like it would have been, you know, hearing Chris out, hearing Emmanuel, not hearing Chris out out but like having a discussion between emmanuel and like what what i think is important i think brie said it yesterday

really well uh she hopes chris can be a catalyst for change right i i hope that too i don't know what's going to happen with ch going forward. It remains unclear. I mean, it was kind of weird last night to have Chris in his voiceover introduce Emmanuel. I don't know if anyone picked up on that. And so it is unclear. And I think while you have this uncertainty, we have people just fighting over, it's either fire Chris Harrison or no chris has been our host no matter what

the show doesn't like they're chris did nothing wrong yeah it says no chris totally did something wrong and people do things wrong and they learn and they apologize and if they do the work and they can grow so be it particularly in this case you know and i don't think it is one or the other you're right there's some space in the middle where chris doesn't have to be cancelled and never touch the bachelor franchise again in my opinion um and yet still there can be a reckoning there yeah but i also i i i also recognize um you know chris has this you know as the host of the bachelor it's a huge platform it's a huge microphone we're's a big responsibility. We're in a time where social justice is happening like never before in great ways.

And whoever is in that role needs to be able to speak on it in a way that has positive actions and reinforcement. And so there's a fair criticism of if Chris is still that person appropriately for that job. And I'm not saying I have no answer for it, but you have to be able to ask that question. Oh, absolutely. That criticism is fair and accurate and definitely something I agree with. To add to that, the missed opportunity with after the final rose is what makes me feel like um the there's a gulf that is becoming wider between oh chris can kind of get back into this ecosystem sooner than later um because that was a big missed opportunity and when we think about the fact that you know uh taisha and caitlin are going to be hosting the next two seasons i guess you would say separate

seasons of the bachelorette it's unclear is that unclear now okay i think it's unclear i think people have to pay attention to what was said and and the first of all was the news dump of all news dumps at like 11 p.m eastern on a friday yeah when they posted that uh they specifically stated chris it won't be hosting this season yeah yeah and then they said that taisha and caitlin will be supporting the next bachelorette and a supportive role they didn't say yeah they did not label them hosts they did not label them hosts i know those words were specifically chosen for sure um and then you have chris doing the voiceover. So it remains unclear.

Wait, I'm picking up what you're putting down. Are you implying that Tayshia and Caitlin will be supporting and that we might still see Chris in some capacity? I don't think we'll see Chris at all on Katie's season. Oh, never mind. I'm putting down what you never put down. But what I'm saying is I think there will be a difference in what you see Chris has done in the role he has performed. And Caitlin and Tayshia.

Got it. I think you'll see a lot of heart to heart with Katie. And quite frankly, again, sometimes when Chris sits and talks to the Bachelorettes and the Bachelor, it doesn't seem like there's a connect there. Maybe Caitlin and Tayshia, that'll seem more natural. Yeah, exactly. Because they've been through this experience and can relate in a totally different way.

I'll be interested. I'm interested to watch that. My guess is the franchise will take this season to, this will be the first time without Chris. Yeah. What is it like? Let's see how it goes. Let's see how it goes.

I think decisions haven't been made is my guess, but I think they were very careful how they made that statement and left the door open for them to have options totally agree um anything else before we we let zuri go that we want to speak on before we we let you go i really appreciate you taking the time yeah no of course glad to be here thanks are we excited about michelle and katie i'm excited i i am i'm a big katie fan because i just love to see her stand up um against bullying in the house and uh leave that charge i thought it was brave and she just seems like a really sweet girl like she has a great

personality uh michelle i'm super excited about for more excited about honestly just because my heart goes out to her and obviously we saw her heart break you know in that final episode so i'm excited for her to find love yeah i'm excited for both i think to that end they'll both be great bachelorettes because you you you want someone who has no problem speaking her truth and they'll do it differently but they'll both do it well yeah yeah i am curious how a season will be without chris and i i think i think it's an opportunity to see if change is in the works or not but it will certainly be um something to watch out and yeah i guess continue to discuss

more things we shall see uh zuri i can't thank you enough for taking the time and having these conversations. Of course, thank you for having me. I'm always appreciative of those conversations just because, like I said, I'm still trying to learn and understand. And to your point, all my friends, black friends, people of color,

I know it's always like, how many people like me have called you up and asked you a question? But here's the thing. If you're my friend, especially, I'd rather you pick up the phone and ask the question than sit in silence and, and let that divide stay, you know, let that, let that ignorance exist or sit. Well, go to your patient black friend, y'all don't go to the oness you know you gotta pick the the friend wisely because everybody doesn't have time for that i can't thank you enough uh tell people about your podcast yeah yeah i've got a podcast on i heart radio in

partnership with the black effect network uh from charlamagne the god and it's called hot happy mess super excited um it's for millennial women who still want side parts and skinny jeans in their lives okay uh gen z is welcome too all are welcome and we're really just about you know celebrating our our magic in the middle of life's messes embracing the hot the happy the mess of our lives all at the same time so we're talking love relationships dating i have experts on therapists i have my real life best friends um some uncomfortable conversations a lot of really fun just wacky ones and then some insight too so we're spoon feeding you the veggies uh with a lot of chocolate and wine and dessert awesome well it sounds like something my audience

would certainly love so be sure to check that out guys and zuri again thanks so much for you're welcome back anytime all right uh thanks guys for listening we appreciate it subscribe review all that fun stuff i hope you guys enjoyed this breakdown go check out uh brie's interview if you haven't and until then we'll see you on monday