The Viall Files - E252 Discussing Cults- Inside the Sex Cult NXIVM With Sarah Edmondson & Nippy From The Vow

Episode Date: March 24, 2021

The Vow on HBO/max is a documentary that follows the stories of people who were intensely involved in the self-improvement organization, NXIVM. Identified as a sex cult, NXIVM is still dealing with charges of sex trafficking and racketeering while its founder, Keith Raniere, sits in jail and some of its highest members wait to be sentenced. Today we are joined by couple Sarah Edmondson and Nippy who met while in NXIVM and are considered to be two of the whistle blowers on the organization. Sarah found herself too deep in the cult - so deep that she was branded as part of a women’s group called DOS which was ultimately the group responsible for sex trafficking. Once she stopped drinking the “koolaid” she was not only able to save herself, but also those around her, and help bring those responsible to justice. Nick and his guests have an intense conversation trying to understand the mindset of someone who joins a cult, how to try to avoid organizations that use manipulation to exploit people, and the understanding of being ashamed of your choices once leaving. “He made the obvious sound profound with big words that really didn’t mean anything.” You can get Sarah’s book, Scarred? HERE  or on Amazon and you can follow the link below to listen to Sarah & Nippy’s podcast A Little Bit Culty   https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/a-little-bit-culty/id1553334816 Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Nuts.com  text FILES to 64-000 to get free shipping on your first order.  Better Help: http://www.betterhelp.com/VIALLFILES to get 10% off your first month.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @sarahedmondson @anthonyames11 @alittlebitculty See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome to another episode of the vile files my name's nick how you doing i wonder i have it i didn't need to be a cult leader sometimes i wonder do you think you could be a cult leader i could do it i think a lot of us could do it i don't know i don't know what your cult would be though i don't know like the cult for people who like keep tapping the doors open there you go and you ask why would i say something nutty? We'll get to nuts later in this episode. But we have a fantastic episode because if you are fascinated by cults, as I think most of us are,

or maybe we saw the documentary called The Vow on HBO, and the sex cult that was NXxium or is nexium we have two of the stars i guess you call it uh from uh the the show the vow sarah and her husband nippy who were uh very high up and part of nexium and and interacted and knew keith ranieri who is now in jail for, I think, life. And we get in talking about cults and their experience in NXIVM and what it's like to be in a cult, how we can avoid joining cults, what's the difference between being a little bit culty versus like a full-on cult, you know? Being a little bit culty. You know, because we, you know, cult, short for culture,

and every company organization likes to have a strong culture, right? A reason like why. And I think the lines get a little blurred, but we have a fascinating discussion with Sarah Nippy, and we were so thankful to have him on, and I think you guys will really enjoy this episode. So I'll stop talking about that and let's just get to the episode.

Well, before we do, support our cult and buy our merch. It's a little bit culty. I mean, like, you know. Yeah, walk around wearing our shirts. Tune into our episodes. Listen to me talk about how you should, like, control your relationships. I don't want anything in return other than your happiness.

It's probably something a cult leader would say. Anyway, it's a fascinating discussion. And so let's get to it. Sarah, Nippy, welcome. Thanks so much for coming on. We're very excited to have you guys on. Thanks for having us. I'm sure you've gotten this reaction a lot,

but it was mesmerizing watching you guys on The Vow. It was kind of a very eye-opening series it was it made you think it was a really kind of a deep like look at cults and and these groups and it really I like it seemed to be the big question about the vow was how does one find themselves in this group or a cult or and you know it was kind of from the point of view of you guys who have left the cult and I don't feel like we've been able to hear a lot of stories from people in your position before it's always like people outside the cults or you know the horror stories of you of when you had the Waco, Texas,

and then you go behind the scenes. So it was very interesting to hear you guys talk about it, and it started to bring up a lot of questions of like, well, how could anyone find themselves in this situation? And so I really appreciate you guys coming on. I thought it would be a great discussion to learn more about what a cult is. How does one get into a cult? What it's been like for you?

And how can we just kind of become more aware of these types of environments? Great questions. And I think largely you don't hear from people like us because when most people wake up from the fact that they've been in a cult, they're very embarrassed, which we were and have a lot of shame and they just want to you know move on with their lives or forget it ever happened so it's or deny it yeah it's it's a hard thing to admit that you've been conned or duped um and to see like how that happened and most people actually don't educate themselves but part of our healing and and and getting past all this is sharing our you know what our experience was with the world so other people don't a don't do it get into the same experience but also to have a little bit more compassion for other people who have and it's a education and and sharing our experience is

really why we're still talking even because if I'd had this template if I'd seen the vow on HBO I wouldn't have probably made it past my first day in my first training or signed up or signed up at all so maybe let's start there because how I know you talked a little bit about it on the vow but what was kind of those how did you guys get recruited so to speak i know you guys have used that word a lot and i even listened to your podcast a little bit culty like how did you guys get recruited what was that first couple days like and were there ever moments looking back where you thought this is a little weird but whatever i'm

gonna go along with it or was it completely just like, this is cool. Well, it's case by case. I think that's the most important thing. The distinction to make is it's case by case. In my scenario, I had run into an old high school girlfriend at a party and she had told me she was a part of it. And she had told me, this organization is great. It's all the things you talked about when we dated. Because I had books on leadership, John Kennedy. I played quarterback in college. I had every book on how to be the best quarterback.

I was always just digesting stuff to make me better at what I was doing. And she was right in that regard. I was interested in that. And everything I was doing was trying to become more successful in what I was pursuing the way she described it. I even said, I'm not going to do your fucking cult. Really? And she was sensitive to that and I was still interested in her and, you know, romantically. So there was a lot of things that, you know,

in hindsight, I think she may have leveraged to get me to come do it. I went and did it. I thought it was weird, and I was more interested in just kind of getting out of there. But there was also a goal-setting aspect to it, which was pretty interesting to me. Yeah, like having that sports background almost. Yeah, just like boom, boom, boom. And that's the kind of stuff I subscribe to. And there were some interesting people that were holding you accountable on certain assumptions and how you were going about

goal setting and and it's always good to have another set of eyes on you and um a lot of it was valuable um most i'd say it was about 50 50 but i never saw i thought there was stuff that was weird but nothing that was overtly offensive. The bowing sashes and Vanguard was like, I'm not going to fucking do that. And I was involved with the organization about a year and a half, two years before I, you know, I was deuces. I peaced out. I was like, there was nothing in it at that point in the organization when I left in around 2003 and I didn't leave under bad terms. I just was looking around and go, you know, the only place you could take the curriculum was in upstate

New York. I was in New York city. I was going up on weekends to, you know, check into my goals, take a class or two and go back to the city. There was a group of us doing it. And I just thought, is this too much time and energy to be doing that? And I left and it, it felt like a floundering organization with poor leadership. And I wasn't the one who's going to spearhead that brigade of bringing vanguard sashes and and all that stuff to new york city particularly when people in new york city were just like fuck this like you know um so i kind of felt you know good luck best of luck to you i think what you guys are doing is okay. And left under those circumstances. Cut to three, four years later, you know, I decided to relate to the organization.

When they have a new training, I'll take one here and there. And I decided to take one in, I think it was December, late December of 2005, January 2006. They kind of overlapped, I think. And the organization was drastically different in about three years. It had expanded to Mexico City, Monterey. It had gotten a lot of people in Los Angeles, a lot of people in acting and directing and film and television, people that were more credible to me.

Yeah, more like notable people. You're like, oh, well, they're joining. Like, I don't know, it can't be that bad so yeah in a lot of ways my um skepticism was kind of washing back up on my short i was i was eating my words a little bit i was like oh this did catch on yeah this did i was in a lot of ways i was like hmm i was wrong this this actually did you you know, gain some momentum. And I ended up going back to LA and around August of 2006, Mark Vicente, who's in the valve came out and said, listen, we have a film project. Keith mentioned you, he wants you to, you know, be in it.

And that was supposed to impress me and it didn, cause I wasn't enamored with Keith. I was enamored with what I felt like the organization was attempting to do. And, um, and I didn't believe the organization when I left was capable of doing it, but it now it was, it was kind of proving to me, Hey, this creating, gaining some traction here. It might be, you know, and if it's work and they're paying for me to come back they're paying to move me back they brought my they shipped my car they shipped everything back and they paid

for me to live in albany new york until filming so i didn't have any real reason to think this guy was full of shit full of shit you know when they were actually doing what they were promised at that time so you know you know i was i was handed a good hand and thinking i was playing in a fair game you know if i'm gonna use the metaphor of a card game um but they were setting me up to you know take my money i guess you know like a pool shark or something like that that's kind of keeps almost playing the long game so to speak yeah yeah he actually taught us about that there was a whole module he taught us about people who do this type of thing like sociopaths essentially and how they get the greatest pleasure of destroying you slowly over time actually

kristin keith the person who um had his first child says in the vow i believe she quotes him as saying keith always said the best sociopaths are the ones who are patient yeah i remember that quote yeah yeah so but you know hearing all that that's that to me is what you know in reconciling my delusion at the end of this that's pretty much when i went back and i looked at all the markers i was like that's when i got played yeah yeah and he also like our our situations how we got in are very different mark vicente invited me at a film festival and but the but the overlap is that we both trusted the person who invited us and that's how these things work same with a friend kind of yeah yeah it's like it's all through leveraged trust and and it's weird because it's like our friends are

a reflection of us you're like well if my in it, like they can't be crazy. Like they're not. I mean, sure, this is nutty, but like they wouldn't. I wouldn't be friends with someone who would join a cult kind of thing. Right. So that's a good point. Yeah. Well, cults are totally nuts.

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been better help that they are recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states. This podcast is sponsored by better help and vile files listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash vile files. You know, for me, my first few days of the intensive, I was very skeptical. I was very closed. I was very much like,

you know, this is cheesy. It's tacky. It's bullshit. And because, you know, I trusted Mark and Mark had good intentions. Like Mark didn't know all the bad shit either.

But he's like, wait it out. Wait it out till day three. See, you know, try to get your money's worth, you know,. Wait it out until day three. Try to get your money's worth. And that's after three days is how long it takes to get indoctrinated. Well, that's another good point. If you put down two grand, three grand for your growth and you're going and you're not getting anything out of it day one or day two, you're pissed. Yeah.

Yeah. So you want to go, well, let's see if I can get something out of this. So your psychology gets behind the fact of, okay, I made this investment. I can't really get it back. Whether you want to believe you do this or not, people do this. It's a cognitive dissonance thing. And also confirmation bias. You're looking for making it worthwhile. And so you become more open. Yeah. For the listeners out there, can you explain to them what a cognitive dissonance is and confirmation bias is? Okay. so I'll do cognitive dissidence. Cognitive dissidence is basically making a decision,

and then once you make the decision, it's going and finding intel and data to support making that decision. So basically the internet today. Yeah, yeah. No, I would think that's kind of along the same lines of conspiracy theorists as well. Yes, sure. Extremisms. Anyone who has extremes of belief

and you show them contrary intel and they totally deny it, then that's what you're dealing with. So you're dealing with a brain that's kind of in its own prison. So one of the things that, you know, there's a great podcast that I'm telling everyone about right now.

It's one with a screenwriter and novelist named Greg Hurwitz, and he was on Jordan Peterson's podcast, and it's called Building a Better Democrat. And this guy does a process of going through and challenging his own belief system in a way that was pretty remarkable. I highly recommend everyone give it a listen. But in essence, you have to really go in and find how you're wrong. And that just takes a lot of things because if you associate your belief system with your identity, your ego, your pride, and certain things, it's going to be hard. And that's a human thing. And you need to understand people that are trying to get you to think and believe a certain way, understand that's how human beings are wired. And billions and billions of dollars go into getting people to think a certain way. And developing a sensitivity to that is only in your best interest if you want to make decisions that are more aligned with what you believe or reality-based or something like that yeah it's really interesting you say that we talk a ton about relationships on this podcast and one of the things we discuss so

much or we hear from our listeners is they'll talk about the time they invested in a relationship is a reason they have a hard time leaving that relationship right and that's very relatable for everyone listening and you're essentially that's kind of what is going on in this these cults. It's like you're like, well, I've done this already. Like I've invested this. And we have a hard time to to look deep into that, to critique it, to question it would mean that you have to acknowledge what you've put in and wasted. And that's hard for ourselves to to do that 100 that's why people are still loyal there's a whole group of people who are still saying keith is

innocent that nippy and i and all the other whistleblowers are lying and it's whole smear campaign and the usual bullshit right and that's cognitive dissonance to a t because they they can't even reconcile what do you say nippy the mount everest of evidence to a T because they can't even reconcile. What do you say, Nippy? The Mount Everest of evidence against Keith because they're like, no, but he's good. He's good. He's good. And so that's the cognitive dissonance. And then confirmation bias, the process of looking for the data to prove that you've

made a good decision. Well, I mean, to your point, people do it with stocks. You invest in a stock and you don't want to get out because you've invested. It's everywhere. So if people can humanize that process in themselves and they can do it with other people, it becomes a more respectful process. Yeah. Another thing that was really interesting, and you guys covered it a lot, and it's something kind of goes against what are the common stereotypes and criticisms for people who join cults is,

it seems like it's more intelligent people who are joining cults rather than you're stupid or naive, right? And maybe it's a mix of both. I'm guessing it's probably overall just a mixed bag, but it was almost like, so, wow, you think that's fascinating. How does it happen?

And Mark talked about it, and maybe you and you, Nippy's it happen and mark talked about it and maybe you and you you nippy both you and mark talked about it but like mark like the sense of purpose it brought you like it's like everyone would want to join nexium because nexium was about change in the world there was almost this righteous endeavor uh and self-growth and it it takes an intelligent person to want to have some self-awareness, to look within. It was almost like that combination. And I don't know if you guys noticed that

or is it just more of a mixed bag? There's a lot of smart people in the world and I don't really, it depends how you define intelligence. We can get into all that and that's a whole other podcast. But there's a lot of intelligent, smart people in the world

operating on a false premise. But ultimately, I think groups like NXIVM can't just recruit people who are broken and have low self-esteem because the company wouldn't function. Really, just to back up for a second, I think anyone is susceptible, any human who is vulnerable, and by vulnerable, I mean going through you know, going through a breakup or having some sort of life change. And if in that moment where they're maybe looking for something or craving community or want to be part of something or change the world, whatever, and they meet the right person, like I heard you speak, Nick, and you're really, you know,

articulate, you give good advice and you're helping people. If I'd met you 10 years ago, I would be like, oh my God, Nick would be so great on Team Change the World. I would totally try to recruit you. So I'm so glad that we met now and not then. Well, I thought about that too. It was like, could I have joined a cult? And me now, I'm older, I've been there and my first response is, of course not. I'm a natural born skeptic. I'm a free thinker. But then I think to myself, yeah, but 24 year old me, I might have joined a cult. You know, I came up from a religious background. I was like, you know, I was going through a tough breakup. I could see where maybe, I don't know, like, you know, you don't.

In the right moment. In the right moment, you feel vulnerable enough, you know. And the right person. And the right person. But yet, to back up to your question, the right person, you have to have someone that you trust, but also like the overall thing that I really see is that these people are idealistic. I'm idealistic. Nippy's idealistic. We have hope for the future. I do meet some people who I'm like,

even in my, in my recruiting days, I never told about it because I'm like, they wouldn't be open. Like I have a family member who's like, I'm just, I am who I am. I mean, there's nothing you can do to change it. I'm not going to invite him to a five day because he doesn't believe he can change. You know, I believed that I could change and I wanted to change and evolve and grow and something that I totally over as a concept, by the way, like, you know, just chill with who I am. If there's a paradigm for the guy, like I would never fall for that. I was this guy in my first training. Yeah. Arms folded. And listen, I'll tell you, that's the person that's most susceptible to it because if you don't think it

can happen to you in a lot of ways, it makes you a candidate for it. Right. So cause you don't know what it looks like or sounds like. And often it, you know, it comes in the form of a friend or someone you're interested in romantically and they might recognize that and go hey check this out and you do it for them and then it's like huh this is kind of interesting and it's benign and it felt benign at first i mean these people were they were homely you know i was like oh cool all right all right whatever and then it grew into this thing that it grew into the monster that we ended up having to take down yeah sarah you a lot about in the

vow you were it seemed like one of the first or main recruiters or you were really good at recruiting even you know we've been talking in this podcast when you first started recruiting again we kind of going back to the question i asked Nippy, it's like, when did you realize or were you as reluctant as Nippy when you first joined or was your experience different? I mean, I was reluctant for the first couple of days. By the end of my five days, like I said, you can be fully indoctrinated into a belief system after three days, which I learned about. Really? I call it recovery. That seems wild.

I know. It's totally wild. If you're sitting, keep in mind, these are like 12 to 14 hour days where you're sitting, focused, listening, repeating certain things, diving into your psyche. There's a whole process I've actually learned about through a book called Combating Cult Mind Control, which explains very specifically how you get indoctrinated. We don't have to get into that. But in three days, if you're focused and you're open and you're willing, it can totally, basically your authentic self gets overridden by what they call like the cult identity. And that cult identity kind of takes over, but your authentic self is still in there. And that's what eventually came out. Like you see it in the vow where I'm like, oh my God, where, who's this

person? I need to get back to that. But I was very skeptical. But by the end of my five-day, I had such profound shifts that I left being like, oh my God, I want all my friends to take this. Truly, from the depths of my soul, I felt like I'd found everything that was so good in the world and I wanted to share it, which is why I was a good recruiter. I just shared. I just shared and anyone who would listen, I would tell. And hey, I burned a lot of bridges, still repairing those bridges because I was annoying. I was zealot. I was just going to say, do you find that yourself, is it a lot of people that tend to be searching for something for themselves, somebody who's trying to do the work for themselves or somebody who had like a crazy breakup and wants to change their life or

something like that. And like, those are the kind of people who are trying to change themselves in some way that kind of like come across these programs to be like, okay, this is going to make me better. I mean, it was both at any time, pretty much anytime I met anybody, my first filter was like, who are they? What do they they want what's missing in their life and can we provide it that's what i would think yeah i and and and in the best possible of intentions you know like i thought i had this amazing curriculum and and truthfully there were really wonderful things about it on the outside that's how people get lured in well people don't join yeah that's what's fascinating because like you said, you felt

and still believe because it was true is that like in the beginning, you felt like tangible benefits from it. Like you felt good, you felt inspired, you felt happier. Yeah. And those were real feelings, right? Those were real feelings, yeah. And that can't be wrong, right? And so that's kind of a fascinating, it's almost terrifying when you think about that was kind of the blueprint or the setup to find yourself in this environment. Yeah, well, I've also since learned

from another cult expert, Janja Lalic, is that the programs like this set it up for you to have this high. And it's kind of like from that point on, you're chasing the dragon. You know, I felt so good. And that's why I like certain, I haven't done Tony Robbins, but like there's that sort of rah, rah, rah concert. Like, oh, you're the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of pump you up. From that point on, you want that feeling again. And I think also like my mom's a therapist, my dad's a

counselor. I've done a lot of personal development and growth. And what I liked about it is that it was so efficient. And I felt like I went through years of therapy in five days. And I'm like, I have like, I've never been diagnosed with it, but self-diagnosed ADD, like I can't sit still. I want to get shit done. I don't want to like talk about it. I want to do it. And so for me that that was a real motivator. And I really do think I did all those things were legitimate. It was just that he took all these methodologies and package it together in such a compact way. Um, that was the only thing that he created that was unique. It's just he repackaged a bunch of personal development. So yeah, I'm sorry, I tangented. What did you ask?

No, I mean, like you said, it sounds like he knew what he was doing, obviously, and deliberately set it up so you could get these euphoric feelings. And it was a bit of, you know, manipulation is a real thing we all manipulate to certain degrees with people in our lives and it's probably an art form that you could master and learn some people are more gifted than others but there's certainly tactics right like yeah you could teach someone how to manipulate someone we actually learned that manipulation is just communication that's what we were told There's good manipulation and bad manipulation. It's bad when there's a lie,

but we're always manipulating. If I smile and you smile back, I just manipulated you. Yeah. Right? You know, what's funny is, you watch the vow, what he was really good at is,

yeah, kind of reverse engineering things and just kind of get it simpler and simpler. So like, well, if all this, like you said, if all this really is, is that, and if that's not bad, then how can manipulation be bad? You just have to like use it responsibly. Yeah, he made the obvious sound profound.

Yeah. With big words, but really didn't say much. And it got to the point where it got a little stale, but because Sarah and I were leaders in the organization, Sarah more so than me, I was a little more vocal about, can we do something a little bit more here? This is a lot of lip service, a lot of meetings. I was disenfranchised and had been for a while about how shit just wasn't getting done. It was a lot of talk and a lot of meetings. A lot of virtual work. Yeah. So morale was low amongst leadership. And I think that was kind of one of the things that made, once you saw something that you didn't align with, leaving very easy and then taking it down was something we were somewhat forced into doing. They seem to think that we went on this campaign, but it turned into an arms race

because Claire Bronfman got on a plane and was trying to get my wife arrested. So... We just skipped to the end. Yeah. Which one's Claire again? Claire's the Bronfman, the one that was like the heiress.

Gotcha, yes. They ran out of bullets. Well, they didn't really have any. One thing I want to ask is that, like, was it deliberate? As the organization grew, you had Keith at the top and then Allison Mack. I mean, I remember the first time hearing about this, and it wasn't because of Keith. It was because it was, you know, Allison Mack, former actress of Smallville, arrested for sex trafficking. You're like, what?

Like, reading that headline was like no that's not that's not possible we don't human traffic certainly not someone like you know it was just like this is wild and then you watch the volume you're like oh shit I remember this story you know and like you're and what was fascinating is somebody who's been in Hollywood and and in the entertainment business is a grind you certainly you guys can relate to that experience and then you thought of someone like you know there's nothing worse in entertainment business is a grind. And you certainly, you guys can relate to that experience. And then you thought of someone like, you know, there's nothing worse in this city is a small taste of success, right? And then that can be pulled away. But yet, Alison Mack, what at least it was, you know, shown in the vow is she became even bigger celebrity within NXIVM,

it seemed like. And it felt like, you know, you're at Keith, who's godlike, and then you have these other leaders. It seemed like they almost got off on being the stars. Was that deliberate, or was that real, or am I just, you know, seeing it differently? Because it seemed like almost like a deliberate tactic for them. Like, it made Allison feel like, well, I don't have, you know, I'm not in smallville anymore

but i am a rock star here uh well you go first i have my take on that you go first okay i'll say great observation and i think in general keith dangled whatever he thought the person wanted and used that to his like as a carrot and you know like inviting nippy out to be this lead in the film and by the way he didn't mention they flew him on a helicopter from albany to new york to get fitted for suits like okay this is this film's happening right um for me i wasn't hitting it in the way that i wanted to as an actor and they gave me this like i basically got the starring role in this new job like they they made me feel special they made me feel good about myself i built my self-esteem all that shit so i think with allison i mean she chose to put aside her

career so she could move to albany to study with keith to deepen her craft you know and she thought that she was going to become a very serious meaningful actress because of keith and that's total obviously bullshit he's not an actor he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about excuse my language but i think that he he he offered people what that he thought they wanted that would hook them um and certainly she did become a leader and they used her as a like you said at the beginning credibility for other actors and actresses he she was basically a lure for other women to go, oh, I want – Allison's got a charisma about her that some people, and a lot of especially women, are really drawn to.

They feel close to her. She's very touchy-feely. You feel like you're her best friend when you're with her. And I think that she was then used to bring in more young women because I think ultimately that's what Keith wanted. That's what I think. What about you, Nippy? I think she was put in a domain where she had a certain kind of earned authority and

that's how she was used. She didn't have an earned authority with me. I didn't really, I mean, I used to give a shit. I mean, yeah, but one of the things i liked about her is is i would kind of i don't know how do i put this like i didn't really when she opened her mouth i kind of tuned out you know when she was in front of a room or something like that i just kind of felt you know what are we listening to um but i always felt one of the things I did like about her is whenever I'd tease or whatever, she was always game. And she was never too big to be teased and too big for her britches.

And she'd always play along and stuff like that. And I think her story, while she's been conditioned to fall on the sword and she's been piled on in this whole thing, she got fucked with. She got fucked with in a big way. And a lot of people are going to say, oh, fuck that. She did these things. And she did. But it's hard for people to gain perspective on how bad the abuse was to her. Yeah.

Well, that was my next question. You kind of answered it. But it was like, do you see Allison Mack as more of a victim or more of a predator, so to speak? Keith worked on her and enrolled her into these faux principles that he felt like he was doing. And in a do it, she had to do these behaviors. And if not, it meant she wasn't on the growth path or whatever. Now, why and how she didn't have the wherewithal to make those distinctions on her own, I think is why Keith was able to abuse her in that way. Most of us have a certain integrity to us that we go, fuck that, I'm not doing that.

I don't think Allison had enough people around her to get her to check herself. I think actually the people around her were, if she did give pause to anything, I think she was manipulated into going, no, this is Keith. Don't you understand? I think because it was Keith asking, she had given her thought processes over to Keith in her decision-making, whereas some people just weren't going to do that and they weren't going to be in his inner circle yeah yeah because she she and others would question things but they'd go to the leadership to help them with their concerns so anytime anyone had a question about leaving or is this good or bad or maybe i shouldn't try to recruit somebody

into this thing or whatever you would go upline you'd go to somebody who'd give you an em and basically head fuck you back into the belief system. When you say EM, what do you mean by that? You said it a few times in the book. So an EM is called an exploration of meaning. And it's kind of like you go to your coach with something and you'd say, I'm having trouble with this. And it's actually, I was thinking about it with the podcast

that you sent me where you're giving advice to somebody and you're giving advice to this woman who is in a relationship. Do you remember the one that you sent me where she's like talking about this addict that she can't, right? I mean, if I EM'd her, it would be like, you know, what's the downside to letting this go? Like there's clearly something that she has with her ego to not admit that there's like, she's saving him and can't, like you asked, basically you EM'd her. You EM'd her without even knowing how to do it. So is EM like a cult term or something that Keith made up? Yeah, he made it up. It's called an exploration of meaning. It's basically a session with a

EMP, an exploration of meaning practitioner, where they would help you evolve an issue. And it could just be like something you're struggling with, but usually it was a stimulus response. So for her, that person you were giving advice to, it might be like, every time he comes back into my life, even though I know it's bad for me, I let him back in, you know, or whatever. So like something, a pattern, like what's the pattern. And the goal of an EM was to break the pattern permanently. And a good EM could be done in like half an hour where you could break a pattern you've been doing your whole life. This is why I love DSP so much. It was so efficient.

You know, you could have an issue that you were always doing your whole life and in half an hour, the pattern's done. But an EM is like a, is a tool. So if I have a manipulate, you know, a goal to manipulate you and I use that tool to my benefit, that's when it becomes a problem. I didn't want to get the brand, but I was EM'd into thinking it was a good idea. You were manipulated. I was manipulated. I mean, truthfully, I don't think EM's work because there wasn't a consistent modality to it. I think

sometimes you could go in and someone could ask you a question that you go, oh, that made me more aware of something. And then, oh, it worked. But you sat down with another EM practitioner with the same issue and they take you down a totally different path. It didn't work in that it wasn't laid out scientifically enough to make it duplicatable. Which is what it claimed to do. Which is what it claimed. It's supposed to be duplicatable. To me, I stopped getting them just because I felt like, you know, unless someone was going to ask me a question that really was for my growth and not for what they wanted me to do. It just, it had that feel to it. And I stopped getting them. Well, it's interesting you say that because like you mentioned on the podcast, it's like I kind of joke when we do our Ask Nick episodes where it's just like, I'm not an expert.

I'm not a therapist. I'm a guy with an opinion. You might find it helpful. You might not. You I, when we do our ethnic episodes where it's just like, I'm not an expert and I'm a therapist. I'm a guy with an opinion. You might find it helpful. You might not, you know, here we go. And that's kind of the point where it's like, it sounds like they were trying to make it like this.

They gave it a name and there was a science behind it and it was going to do this. And a lot of people who call up in the podcast will admit later, like they don't take the advice right away or they may never take it or, you know, it's just like they call in.'s certainly entertaining some of them thank me for it that some of them have come back on and said that i took that advice but six months later you know after i didn't listen to you and and and to nippy's point like they might come on my podcast and then for the 20 minutes they're talking to me like oh that's you're right you're right you

totally read me and then like they still don't want to do what i told them to do so they go talk to their girlfriend and says like fuck that like go get me. And then they still don't want to do what I told them to do, so they go talk to their girlfriend and say, fuck that, go get yours, girl. And then they're like, yeah, okay, I'll listen to my friend because confirmation bias. I texted you this. I thought you gave really, really good advice. That's exactly the advice that I would give.

Now, here's the thing. I do not think she's going to follow it because you didn't get to the, which you can't but this is an esp terms like if i was an esp watching you do that i'd be like you didn't get to the thing underneath her this is probably from childhood with her where she feels like there's something missing in her that if she can save everybody then everything will be okay and she'll feel good about herself and she wanted that guy to choose her over his addiction. It's not going to happen. That's when I tell him to go talk to a therapist.

Right, right. I'm not a doctor. This is what I think. You're not a doctor. The advice was perfect. I just don't think she's going to take it because it's more important for her to be the savior and feel validated by his, you know, she wants him to choose. We don't have to go into that. That's the responsible thing to do.

Tell her to go see a therapist. The point is that most people don't take advice because they have some deep-seated issue and unless they go see a therapist, they're just going to repeat their patterns over and over and over again. All that said, Nick, you sit down with a volume of people over 10 to 12 years

and they sit down with you with something going on, you figure out relatively quickly that human beings aren't that mysterious as we think. Exactly. Yeah. We're all very similar. You've probably seen that. Yeah. And, and I can sit down with someone and I could hear them start talking about what was going on. I go, Oh, I got this. You know, just because the volume of people that I had to sit down with and talk to, and there's one particular, and you can take logic classes in any college,

but there's one module that we had that really shifted my thinking. It was called Assumptions and Presuppositions. And I got very, very good at hearing people's assumptions and presuppositions about when they opened their mouths. So I could hear it so i would hear it and that's all i need to hear i didn't need to hear their story so i'd let them you know run out of gas when they tell a story and i go back and ask a question that addressed their assumption they go how'd you know to ask that and i would be like oh shit now they

think i'm some mystical seer and i and i felt really really fucking uncomfortable like how'd you do that? I'm like, dude, well, and I would go, look. It looked like magic. If someone was good at it, it looked like- All you had to do is connect with and hear their assumptions about what they were saying and just get them to think about it differently, which they had never done. So for you to go in with a direct question on their assumptions about what they were

doing, they felt, oh, but that's what I recognized was being done to me after a while. And I recognized- Nancy and Lauren were good at that. This is what I recognized. This isn't rocket science. This is just figure out the assumptions or presupposition that are running this person's life. I need this thing thing and be like, well, what if you didn't need that? They go, how'd you know to ask that? Well, you told me when you sat down in the first 30 seconds and then you talked, you know, everything was based on that assumption. Oh, that's all I had to catch.

Can you give an example of that? Sorry. Well, I mean, I don't know. Like, um, you know, they come in and they go, well, I'll give you an example of how it worked in goals lab. The goals lab is what I love to run. And when someone would sit down, sit down, they go, I'd say, you know, it'd be like a five year, one year, three year, three month goal. And they go something to the effect of, well, what do you want to be in five?

Well, I kind of want to be like, and when they said kinda, I would just, I knew I had them. Right. Cause kinda to me or sorta or words like that were portals into their belief system and their psychology about themselves and how they go after their goals. They kinda sorta go after their goals. So to me, that was just like what I was helping them become aware of. And if they could own that and I would check in with them weekly, that's what I was working with them on. So it wasn't rocket science, but to someone who doesn't know that, that's very, very helpful.

And someone who's like, I can be that for someone who's coming to me weekly and I can go, look, you said this last week and I remember, and I actually wanted people to go out and make this program work for them. You're bringing an outside awareness. Sorry, go ahead. No, I was going to say, what's interesting about that, because everything we just talked about could be a positive thing. It's a tool. Like Nebi said, these are resources and tactics that have been studied and proven.

It's in books. Yes, it's in books. And then it's like Keith knew this and then said, this is how I kind of almost get people to trust me. Or like you said, almost feel like feel like oh he sees my soul like he really understands me and then that's almost like and then if you have bad intentions yes uh then you can take that and then you know get them to do what you want it sounds like and i i get i got the weebie jeezies when people would feel like oh how'd you i'm like no look look look just go learn it but that's also why people are still invested they're like but the tech the tools

are so good and like they're out there saying get them from a fucking youtube video so what do you feel like so it next time is like known as a sex cult is that how you guys see it what was keith's all i mean it's not keith's probably goals ultimately power i guess and money and sex and i know that's one thing you had, his name escapes me, but on your podcast, he talked about ultimately, yeah, like any narcissist, that ultimately what they want is money, sex, and power. But like, what was he trying to get NXIVM to be other than like having sex with some of the women? Was there a goal in terms of what he even, without acknowledging it being a cult, like what was NXIVM's goal to make money? What was the business operated on?

Can I get this one, Nick? Yeah, sure. No, go for it. Well, we had to all come to terms with the fact there's what we thought it was and then what it actually was, right? And we thought it was a personal development program designed to help people have more self-awareness, make better decisions, be the best version of themselves, all those cliches. And then what we came to realize is actually a criminal enterprise. So the sex cult term is shitty in a lot of ways because 99% of the people who were in NXIVM weren't part of that. I met my husband. That was the depth of the sex cult part of it for us. But the closer that you

get to Keith and the inner circle and the harem, that's where the deviant stuff was happening. Now, sex in and of itself isn't a problem, right? I think we can all agree on that. But when we, at least when I joined, I was told he was celibate. He was an redentia, didn't take any money from the program. He lived like a monk, very. And, you know, I guess one of the reasons why I was so mad when I left is because I was out there vouching for this guy and he was back in Albany having threesomes with all of the, you know, inner circle. And that's why he was late for meetings, by the way, because he was, that's what he was doing. And it was like, if you want to do that, if you want to have a polyamorous lifestyle and teach personal development, then put that on your website, you know,

but don't say you're one thing and do another. And that's, that's the deception. That's the lie. So in many ways, the sex cult thing was good in that it shone a light on it through the media, because you know, who doesn't like to talk about a sex cult, but it was also really bad for people on the outside who were like, but I'm just part of this goals program. And now I'm part of a sex cult, but it was also really bad for people on the outside who were like, but I'm just part of this goals program. And now I'm part of a sex cult. Like, you know, that's really upsetting for people. So, you know, I always, I've been saying recently, like, okay, it was a sex cult and it wasn't a sex cult. It was both. But ultimately we found out it was a sex cult from the beginning. So I think, and we've learned that Keith had a polyamorous lifestyle since before NXIVM and he kind of kept it on the DL so that he could grow this thing, and eventually brought

more and more people into it, and his little harem grew, but they were all kept, they basically agreed to be quiet about it. Well, also, the people around him, the women around him, we underestimated their capacity to lie about who Keith was. And they were also pimping for him. Yeah. He rarely pursued women. He got the women around him to get the women to come to him.

Which, this is all stuff we found out when the general public found out. In the trial mostly. As well. So that to me was to find out you were aligned with something in addition with the embarrassment and shame of being conned, which I don't think we spent too much time there because we were pretty much in a dogfight for six months after we left. But to find out the stuff whenever it was a year or two later after and to find out some of the women that were around him that Sarah and I would see when we come to town that were, they were being abused. And these are, these are little girls, Nick, like these are, these are like underage. Well, some of them were and had been abused since they were underage. Yeah. That's what came out in the trial.

One of the women was 15 when she, he started. These were good people, you know know still are good people but like we were around them and didn't know this was going on like i like they seem some of the oftentimes they seem miserable but we didn't know why we thought we we just thought that they were working through stuff whenever they also feel like did they also feel like they had like this secret like they were keeping a secret for him so they had this power and that made them feel special. I think so. I think some of them, I can see that with Alison and some of the other women,

some of the women that are still in that they felt like, yeah. I don't think the ones, the ones that were underage necessarily felt that, I mean, there's an arrested development. I think that goes on. If you've been, if that's the only person you've been with since 15 or 16 or we don't know. I mean, a lot of the women that are, that he got,

he got when they were late teens, early twenties. Like I joined when I was 27, turning 28. And I think that's one of the things that saved me in the end is that somewhere intuitively I kept him at arm's length. That's nuts. I was doing some more research and I actually recently, there was this interview in this article by Danielle Roberts, Dr. Danielle Roberts.

Do you guys know her? Oh, yeah. She did my branding. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, then, yeah. I guess you do. She recently gave an interview it sounds like she's still a believer or in it or maybe that's not true but

at least still defending the act of branding as if like correct you they all wanted to do that in the moment it was and that to me like watching interviews seem to be the scariest part yeah of it all because it's i mean i don't know if nuance is the right word because it's like you could see that she believed everything that she was saying. Yeah. Like that she wasn't lying, that she was like, she believed that like, yeah, maybe you were laughing or someone else was laughing or maybe you did agree to it. But like there was no recognition of like what you had to say and everything that led up to that moment of getting like you to a goal along with it that kind of manipulation and training and and where do you come to terms

with that or how what is that like or how can people become more aware of it because it was crazy watching oh god can i answer that one nippy and then you can yeah i have my diet i know i know what i just just to say because i first of all have to say like it's incredibly sad to me that she's still drinking the Kool-Aid, by the way. I don't know if you saw my shirt. It says, beware of the Kool-Aid. Yeah. It's my cult shirt. She has to believe that what she did was good because she's a doctor.

I believe at her core she's a good person. She wants to help people. She got led astray by a very manipulative man. And so she has to stick to the story in response to the, they wanted it. That's like saying, like a rapist saying she wanted it. Would you think I, a married woman, would want Keith's initials on my body? Fuck no. That was kept from me. The women at the top, the eight line, the top line women under Keith and in the women's sorority were all in love with Keith. They want to get Keith's initials on their body.

You know, weird, but all the power to them if that's what they want. For the other women, we did not want that. They they lied to us. I said they were getting a tattoo. They said it was going to be the symbol for the elements. Nobody would have agreed to it had they been honest said okay listen we're doing this women's group but because keith started it we're gonna put your his initials on your body as a tribute like and they didn't tell you no no no no so she she says that we wanted was i laughing

in the room i cried i was i was in horror did i laugh at some points during that five-hour procedure with all the other women? Yes. We all have awkward laugh all the time. Awkward laugh. I totally laugh. And I even talk about this in my book. I had to gaslight myself to stay there, to not. Because, I mean, obviously, if I knew what I knew now and I saw that, I'd be like,

are you kidding? I'm not doing that. I'm not putting that on my body. There's no way. saw that i'd be like are you not doing that i'm not putting that on my body there's no way you know but i had in my head keith's words the indoctrination of this is why women need a woman this empowerment group because we don't stick stay to our word we we break secrets we're we're indulgent we we can't stand through pain like men do we have to like which is also total bullshit because we make a birth and that's the

most pain you can ever imagine anyway my point being danielle that interview with danielle was last week it's been actually a pretty heavy duty nexium week because that came out and her and like eight other women from the dossier project came out with their statement basically saying that this whole thing he's in jail jail because of Sarah Edmondson's false narrative. And to which I would respond, even if this was a totally false narrative on my part, like what about all the other women, all the other victims that came forward and did testimony in the trial? They have to deny so many people's perspective and truth to say to hold on to their perspective so it's it's it's a it's been a heavy week i'll tell you that right now are they still recruiting

i think so yeah i don't you know into what like i don't i don't know what is next year what is next him now if anything i mean does it exist there's just a group of people who believe that keith is innocent i mean they're not doing anything other than trying to defend him. Yeah, they've just doubled down on their narrative. And it's an interesting thing because if I could press a button and have those people go back to their lives and live fruitful lives, I'd press it. Right? lives, I'd press it. And I think anytime you come out with something that's contrary to the negative, they become more emboldened to dig their heels in

and fight. Sarah, for some reason, has emerged as the figurehead to fight in this. Probably because I've been most vocal. More than Mark? Because I feel like you and Mark were kind of like, it seemed like, watching The Vow, the two people leading the charge against uh nixon yeah definitely both

of us but right now they seem to be wanting to disprove my narrative or whatever or just i think it's personally i think it's revenge i mean revenge masquerading as nobility and to double down on their narrative um is an insult to so many people's intelligence. You know, they issued the judge an affidavit about the corruption in the case. It's just, you know, if they understood the scope of how things work, they'd recognize that they're throwing rocks at tanks and they're not really going to get far. This thing was going to end one way or the other

once my wife came home with a brand in her pubic area. And I told Sarah if she had come back with as much a mark on her arm, I would have been in there with a baseball bat. So it wasn't like, you know... Say what you said today about Danielle, like even if we did... Oh, that's the other thing is that she said we wanted it.

There's a videotape of Keith saying to Allison, set up the branding so that the women ask to be branded so it looks consensual. So, yeah, they have to ignore it. That's cognitive dissonance. She can't take that in. She can't take it in. Where are Nancy, Lauren, I know Allison's up for sentencing Danielle. Like, where are they now? Who's going to jail?

Who's not going to jail? And where did they draw the line between people who were victimized by the cult and people who were part of this leadership? It's a good question. It's a good question. I don't think they're done drawing it. leadership? It's a good question. It's a good question. I don't think they're done drawing it. I know Nancy, Lauren, and Kathy Russell, and Allison Mack pled guilty. And they're awaiting sentencing. They're awaiting sentencing.

And what they'll get sentenced, I don't know, because it depends. This judge really came down hard. And I think he came down hard on Keith for obvious reasons, but he came down hard on Claire Bronfen because Claire Bronfen was doubling down on, she didn't think Keith was bad. Yeah. She pled guilty, but she said, but he's a good man and I wouldn't change anything and wasn't willing to denounce him. And he just said, listen, you don't get it. Spend six years to think about it.

Eight years. Almost eight years. Yeah. In counting. Yeah. We thought she was going to get it. Spend six years to think about it. Eight years. Almost eight years. Yeah. In counting. Yeah. We thought she was going to get two. So I think that's going to send a message to how Nancy, Lauren, and Kathy show up to court. Because isn't Allison up?

She could face up to 40. I think it was. I mean, whether she gets it or not, but that could be the max. I don't think she will. Yeah. I don't think she will. Because I think she's had a long – we'll see. I mean, she's had a long time to be away from him

and hopefully have her family and other people come in and kind of talk sense into her. We've heard that she's woken up, actually. Yeah. Well, that's good. Because you're either drinking the Kool-Aid or you're not. And once you wake up, you can't go back. You really can't.

Because you're either drinking the Kool-Aid or you're not. And once you wake up, you can't go back. You really can't. I want to close things out in terms of big picture on a macro level. You talked a little bit about Tony Robbins. Obviously, people have questions between cults, religion. A lot of things, when I watched The Vow, I thought of one of the companies I worked for, U.S. Cellular.

It's a regional cell phone character back in the day. And their CEO at the time, they talked a lot about culture. Culture was big to them. And a lot of times we were like, hey, you're drinking the Kool-Aid of U.S. Cellular because it was very much about, a lot of people would get up at these mediums and talk about how U.S. Cellular changed their life.

It wasn't a job. It was a purpose, et cetera, et cetera. And so where are the distinctions between these self-help groups and this euphoric feeling people get from like a Tony Robbins seminar or religion and things like that? Because Keith, for example,

sometimes the criticism could be, you see Keith, he took these practical things that you read in books and these manipulation texts, some of which could be used in a good way, and he turned it and used it against people, you could say the same things about the Bible, religion. Religion is weaponized all the time. And so where do we draw the line between what is a religious and it's good versus a cult versus a self-help group versus a cult, et cetera, et cetera. That's a really good question. It's actually why we decided to start our podcast a little

bit culty because we acknowledged that we were in a cult back in the day, but we thought it was a thriving group of happy, successful people wanting to support each other. And we were even taught that a cult is something where there's a deception where there's a lie and we just couldn't see what that was we couldn't see what was the bad thing so you know we now know that there's a there's like a continuum um from being like very healthy a group where you can leave it will or you can you know if you have a doubt you can question it without being gaslit where you understand them you know the mechanisms you have a doubt, you can question it without being gaslit, where you understand the, you know, the mechanisms of how the company works, the group works, and it's all transparent to, you know, on the far other end of the continuum, where it's a, it's a, like a totalitarian

dictatorship, where there's usually one person, often a man, a very charismatic leader, and you can't question, you can't, without being punished or, you you know hurt in some way and and everything in between and there's you know various red flags that that we've been talking about and that we've learned that would say hey this is now it's gone from personal development to a cult and often there's things like you're you know you're dependent like you can't you you you can't function without the group um and also like one thing that we, the red flag that we always tell people is like, is there any allegations against the group? You know, are there any, anything against the leader? And if there is, how does the leadership respond to that? If they say, well, that's just a

bunch of craziness or that's just a smear campaign. Like that's not, that's not enough of an answer where there's smoke, there's fire is generally the, the route. But I would also say to people, Where there's smoke, there's fire is generally the route. But I would also say to people, if it feels off, it probably is off. And that's how we were kind of messed with is that they said, if you're feeling the desire to leave, which I did in my first few days, it just means that you're hitting up against an issue and you came here to work through your issues. So stick it out. Yeah, that manipulation was crazy, especially uh you guys were talking about it was that the collateral or giving uh

these these what'd you guys call them like gifts or sacrifices collateral collateral to to make sure you kept quiet and kept your word but that's not what they called it but that's what it was right well what it was is blackmail but they did call it collateral they did call it collateral yeah but collateral had been but had had been part of the culture of nexium for a while people put down collateral like i'm gonna put down 500 dollars and if i nag my husband one more time i'm giving it to charity that would probably work for us hey babe but it's interesting they make it a good thing first and all of a sudden it turns into like this like send me a nude yeah exactly yeah which is yeah and that's all that's that just really just to finish that real quick anyone listening going like what you gave a nude photo i get it it sounds fucked up how could you get to that point that's why we decided to do the vow why i wrote my book so people could

understand how i got from i'm taking a personal development program to giving a nude to my best friend to him you know like it happens in stages it doesn't happen overnight 12 years to get to that point talking about long game you know Keith long game I wouldn't have I would never have agreed to any of this if I knew where it was going so but like even then on the show they were talking about like whether it was Lauren who she pushed back by saying, you're just, it's control for you. You have to let go.

Like they were trying to like, it was like the seminar about letting go. So like to let go, you need to like do this crazy shit because like, it was just like, well, I guess, you know, well,

when you don't ask any questions. Yeah. I, I committed to working my issues. So that means I can't ask any questions and just go along with it because that will help me with my control issues. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a, yeah. Add a little to it. It's like, there's destructive cults and then there's just like the chess club, you know? I mean, the chess club can be,

you know, can be a little culty to it. Um, but if you listen to, I think it's in Stephen Hassan's, anything that addresses control over your behavior, information, thought, or intellectual, over your behavior, information, thought, or intellectual domain. Emotions. Emotions. Yeah, sorry. Emotions is normally designed to get you

to control you. And one of the things too is, we're bringing experts on, but I think, you know, one of the things that, and thank you for having us on here is, you know, Sarah can just kick the tires a little bit on something and then move on, which is, I wish I had done, you know, and I'd had something like the vow or a podcast, you know, back 2001 when I first did my first training. Before podcasts even existed. Podcasts are going to save people's lives, I think, for a lot of things. Well, also collectively, collectively, this kind, these kinds of behaviors, I think, for a lot of things. Well, also, collectively, these kinds of behaviors

are being brought to a collective consciousness and being outed in a lot of domains. Less acceptable, no. The more you can articulate, the more you can talk about it, the better. For sure. Yeah, because you mentioned in that one podcast I listened to, just the rise of conspiracy theories have kind of a cult-like following to them and the same type of messaging. And so this stuff is out there and it's prevalent.

And whether you think you're going to join a cult, I think it's good to be kind of mindful of these manipulation tactics that can be used by anyone, right? Whether you're in a cult or not. We often want to be better and we have a sense of purpose and righteousness about us. And we have to be, unfortunately, we live in a world where people try to take advantage of that. And that can be pretty scary. Any final thoughts before we let you go? This has been really fascinating and I really appreciate you guys taking the time. I can only imagine how vulnerable it is for you guys to to relive this back and talk about it and uh it's certainly brave of you guys to just be so open and honest about it because i think like

you said a lot of people just like pretend i'm assuming never happened you mentioned a lot of people who will leave cults don't do the work you know they might have but then because it's like well fuck it to do the work it has to i have to say i was in a cult and that yeah no one wants to say that you know you have to swallow your pride especially a sex cult you know yeah it's gotta be tough like you know like i have a hard time being like i don't know like why i went on this crazy reality tv show it's a little weird it's culty stuff to that, but whatever. It's fine. It wasn't a cult. Just so you know, what you just said is exactly how I felt when I was agreeing to DOS.

I didn't think that Lauren was actually my master. I was like, this is something I'm agreeing to as a sort of thing that we're all on the same page. Right? Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, even when Nippy was like, oh, I first went to my meeting and his hands crossed, I literally thought back to my first couple days on set. We're like, alright,

I'm here for this fucking show. Let's see where it goes. I'll give it a shot. And the next scene, I'm like, I love you! You know? So it's like, oh, weird. Marry me! Marry me! I can't live without you! We have way more in common than I ever would have thought.

And we also both love pimples, which I learned from your last episode. Love potching popping pimples. So gross. B has not had a good one recently, and I'm very disappointed. It's such a gratifying thing. Oh, it's disgusting. Popping. I just wanted to wrap up on a light note.

It's as offensive as that drawer being open. I'm with Chrissy. No, I think in any relationship, you have to have one pipple popper and one person who's not a fan. Anyways, you were saying, Sarah. No, it's just as nice to wrap up on a- It's on my back.

No, on a lighter note, because I think ultimately the last thing I'd want to say is that if anyone's listening who has been in a cult or an abusive relationship, because it's the same process, is that there's hope. There's stuff you can do to heal and that there's light at the end of the tunnel. And I'd say that what we went through was probably the worst experience of my entire life, but we're both way stronger for it. And, um, I believe that turning, we believe turning trauma into purpose or into a roadmap for, you know, recovery is,

is the only way out. Otherwise, you know, it can be quite a dark place to live in. And I just hope to be that light for other people. Well, that's a, it's a great note to end on.

What's next. Is there going to, is there a, a definitely a season two of the vow? Yeah. Season two. Cause where are you left off is where Keith gets arrested, right? Well, yeah.

It literally ended with Keith being like, what do you want to talk about? All right. Yeah. So there's the whole trial. Let's do this again. Yeah, let's do it again. We're not in it that much, though.

We don't know. You were pregnant. I was pregnant. not in it that much though we don't know because you were pregnant and i went to the i went to like three to five days of the trial and was filmed there but then i but i think that they have a lot of the back they have people that they didn't get season one like a lot of the mexican contingent i know they have interviews with like um like the more of the inner circle i think it'll be really interesting i mean keep in mind when we watchedow, we were spectators to a lot of things that we'd never seen before either. So, I mean, I'm sure it'll, you know, how we have to be careful. We have to be on our toes. And sometimes with our own kind of righteous endeavors, we can get

ourselves in trouble. But one thing I wanted to say, it was really interesting that you guys mentioned on your podcast in terms of if you do find yourself interacting with someone you think might be subject to environment that could be toxic or cult-like in terms of instead of instead of convincing them that they're in a cult get them to convince you uh why they're in something good or not a cult i thought was a really interesting way to start addressing those situations because i think, you know, I always get asked questions like, what do you do if you, you mentioned even Sarah's toxic relationships. If my girlfriend's dating someone who's terrible, how do I get her to see it? You know, and we, I think that happens a lot in friendships and relationships and just getting them to justify what is good about it,

it seems to be a much healthier approach. And the way you guys articulated that was very helpful. Oh, good. Yeah, definitely don't attack people and make them feel like shit. That doesn't help. So many people were, yeah. I mean, the seeds that were planted for me to wake up

were people that just asked me questions. Wild stuff. Thanks so much, guys. Where can people find you so they can digest more of the stuff that you are putting out there? I'm at Sarah Edmondson for Instagram and Nippy is at AnthonyAims11 on Instagram. And our website is a little bit culty.com, same Instagram handle.

And that drops every Monday. And I wrote a book, which is on Amazon and Audible and all those places, called Scarred. And the vow, we don't know when the vow comes up, right, babe? No, we don't know. It's a mystery at this point. Well, I mean, a lot of it's dependent on the court. Yeah, it'll depend on when people get sentenced.

Yeah. Is that might happen sooner than later? We hope so. I don't know what's taking so long covid oh yeah covid and also maybe you know that pandemic that's been going on it almost sounds like it correct me if i'm wrong it almost sounds like there are when it comes to sentencing you guys clearly and i get why are invested in and what those outcomes are and is it would it be accurate to say that there are some people like do you want them all to go to jail for the max or some people you're rooting for some leniency and others you're hoping they get the max or is it somewhere in between i think the people that got the stiffest sentence got them already okay i think that i

think that's why they were the first two gosh um um the others it depends where they are if they double down on being like you know keith was whatever i think the judge is gonna go dude this guy you know you're not fit so what do you guys think in terms of do you have an opinion i don't i don't know what the legal like i i don't have it really depends like nippy said if they wake up and and can admit that that they they did wrong, it was bad to lie, and that Keith is a sociopath or whatever, they need to figure out to wake up. A little bit of jail time, I think, would be good, but I don't think they need the max. I don't have the legal wherewithal to say what they deserve. I don't have the references for that, but not 40 years.

I don't think Kathy Russell should go to jail. I think she just got caught in the middle of something. She's peripheral. Lauren and Nancy, I think you run the red light, you pay the fine. Yeah. That's kind of how I feel. The whole I didn't know thing doesn't really hold water for me. When you do the behaviors that they did.

Yeah. I think Allison Mack has been piled on disproportionately. doesn't really hold water for me. When you do those behaviors, the behaviors that they did. Yeah. I think Allison Mack has been piled on disproportionately. Sure. She's the most notable person. So that's going to happen. So she certainly doesn't need. I trust the judge.

I really do. I think he's got a good pulse on it. Yeah. So I'm not rooting for anyone to go through more pain, I guess, is another thing too. I'm rooting for people to wake up, including Danielle. It is obviously very personal for you guys. So once again, thank you. Thank you guys for sharing your story and taking the time.

We really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the great questions and the thoughtful questions. Yeah, they were great. Those are some of the best questions you've had. Yeah, really good questions. I loved listening to your advice column. I think you give great advice and you would make a great EMP one day.

Yeah. Great. I'll just. There's a t-shirt. There's a t-shirt for you, Nick. I could make a cult if I wanted to, you know? Yeah, I think you probably could. But that's, you know yeah i think you probably could um but that's you know it's funny i have a friend actually what a former bachelor producer who has keith vibes uh and i was

like hey how many people have told you that you could have done what keith done it if he wanted to he's like a lot and he's also the type of person who like knows he can start a cult and he's really he is really smart but he also is a good guy and but he's he but type of person who like knows he can start a cult and he's really he is really smart but he also is a good guy and but he's he but he like he knows he could do it and it's uh he knows he can start a cult but he's just like yeah i'm too good a person for that i mean it's like no oh and and honestly there might have been a time where he was like fuck it i'll start a cult but uh he's older now and he's humbled himself and he's also not a sociopath or a narcissist but he could definitely do it.

That's a key ingredient. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. You would have to grow your hair out. He has the beard. He's got the hair. I don't. I don't have the hair for a cult leader.

By the way, did you see Nick Jonas playing Keith Raniere in Saturday Night Live last week? Oh my God. That made my day. Made my day. I feel like really good about that, especially because his outfit is made famous by a photo that I think,

I don't know for sure, but I took of him in 2005, that blue shirt with the volleyball outfit. That's like, I was there when that happened 15 years ago. So now it's legitimized. I think that's the closest I'm ever going to get to Saturday Night Live as an actor. So I feel like i just have to relish in this well same they did a

they did a parody of me once i was the bearded hunk oh were you oh wow sounds like that's that's cool you know some of the closest i'll ever get you know like they're they weren't really making fun of me but like they weren't not. It was, you know. I think it's a real tribute to what you've created. Yeah. So anyways, thank you guys. Well, we can't thank Sarah Nippy enough for taking the time out of their day to talk about

obviously something that's very personal, very vulnerable to their lives. And as fascinating as this is, I think it is an important conversation to have because the cults exist. They are out there. There are people who want to take advantage of us, our money, our well-being. And it's great to feel like we belong to something. And it's great to feel like we have a culture and we longed a passionate community. But how do we make sure that we protect ourselves from getting into cults? Because I think one thing we learned about this is that it can happen to anyone. So I hope you guys enjoy this episode.

Don't forget to send your reviews. Only if they're five stars, honestly. We really don't have time for your critical feedback. But we thank you for listening. Either way, love you guys. We will see you back on Monday for a kick-ass episode of Ask Nick. Tell your friends. We love you.

Bye.