The Viall Files - E260 A Topical Bachelor Conversation with Dave Holmes

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

Dave Holmes returns to The Viall Files today as we take a minute on this Bachelor break to sort through some of the recent topics surrounding Bachelor Nation.  Nick and Dave touch on a variety of topics from recent events including Colton Underwood coming out, what a new season without Chris Harrison may look like, and mental health and the show.    “You don’t want people to get to know you too well because they may notice something and bring it to your attention to make you uncomfortable, they may force a conversation with yourself that you are not ready to have.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: MVMT: http://www.mvmt.com/VIALL  Sunday: http://www.getsunday.com/VIALL to get $20 off your custom lawn plan at checkout!  Viall Files: http://www.viallfiles.com get 20% off with code VIALL  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody happy tuesday we are back on tuesday everybody we've taken some time off because fuck if they weren't making us work overtime. Amen. But we thought we would check in with Bachelor Nation. And there's been a lot of hot goss, as we have said in the past. Hot goss. And obviously nothing more kind of out in the media is with regards to veteran nation than Colton Underwood coming out and identifying as gay. And there are,

it's a complicated topic and story given the recent events of the restraining order against Colton, The recent events of the restraining order against Colton, his Netflix show that's coming out, you know, all these things. And, you know, it's I think it's an important topic to discuss. Obviously, you know, my sister is gay and her coming out process was a challenging one for her as it is, I think, for most people who come out. And Dave and I were texting about kind of the nuances of that process, and we all love Dave, and he was so great recapping. I asked him to come in and just kind of chat with me about all things Bachelor Nation, some of the news,

and we spent a lot of time focusing on just the climate of the the show we obviously cover a lot of things regarding Colton we dive into kind of the future of the show as specifically as it results to obviously Chris and and and all those other things we probably could talk for hours but it was a good conversation with Dave and hopefully you guys enjoy it we will certainly obviously be back on Tuesday soon and later for the better part of forever. And maybe it will probably drop another episode leading up to Katie's season, but we loved having Dave in.

It was a great conversation. I hope you guys enjoyed it. And I guess we'll just get right to Dave. Thank you for coming back, Dave. Um, my audience loves you. Great.

Truly. I love your audience. Loves, loves you. Great. And, um, I'm excited to have you back.

We, we haven't had a bachelor themed episode since the end of Matt James' season. And since then, there's been a lot of things going on. It's been explosive. Bachelor Nation. And Dave and I were texting when Colton's news broke. And I text Dave, like, I have a lot of thoughts and opinions, but I'm not sure how to discuss it.

And Dave mentioned, you know, he thought there was a conversation to have and a way to do it. Um, and I was like, why don't you come on in and we'll chitty chat. And then I figured we'll talk about all other things about going on in the bachelor nation and we'll just dive all into it. Yeah. We, we kind of processed it in real time. Yes.

As was like the initial announcement, then the reality show announcement. There was a lot. Yes. In that day. And. It was jam packed with Colton. I know Colton. I have.

Yeah. Kind of a relationship with Colton. Yeah. And then, you know, you are a gay man and you've, you talk about that. And then, you know, I have a lot of gay friends and I heard a lot of their opinions about the whole thing. And it was a very kind of complicated situation. It's messy. So I guess let's just start with that.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, it feels strange to talk about it because I don't know him at all. Like you do. I know him from TV. I'll be 100% honest. I watched his season with my phone in my hand. You know what I mean?

Like, I was half there, half not, waiting for the fence jump. Yeah, you were one of those people where it's like, is it this week? Come on, fuck it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They got you. Yeah, they know what they're doing.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I had any strong feelings about him one way or the other, other than I always, when somebody is very open about being a virgin, especially a man, it's always like, what's going on there? It always seems like it's more complicated

than they're maybe even aware themselves. Yes, and I feel like Bachelor Nation kind of thought the same thing. Yeah. It was, there's more to this yeah we don't know what it is a lot of theories were thrown out right certainly his sexuality was part of that theory but there was an abundant amount of theories but it was all kind of like we're not sure what's going on right and he didn't and he certainly led with that's the

interesting thing about colton he had no problem driving that conversation about I'm a virgin. Yeah. And let's talk about that. Did he really address, but he never really addressed why. He didn't necessarily address it, but he didn't,

he was happy to let the world know. Yeah. Sure. And that, but then also, and this is, you know, I defer to you on this,

how much of it was like, he mentioned it twice or three times and they just used all of those times fair question and that is a common credit like that's a common frustration for any lead is whether it's your story like for me i always thought my narrative was totally kind of made up or it's just like i was like a combination of this unlucky and love whore you know okay i Okay. I didn't think of you that way, Nick Vaughn. But, you know, that's kind of how I got thought of some people where it's just like I was sex positive.

You knew I kind of had sex because of things that were shown on the show. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so like my sexuality was highly talked about. And then because I was the runner up two times, it was like this guy can't find a girl. Right. And it was like I don't find either of those two to be accurate, but fuck it. Let's just go with it.

Sure. And, you know, fourth time's a charm. And that was, you know, that was highly, I was very sensitive to that. I had conversations with the producer. I know every lead, to your point, will get frustrated about like this one storyline that's pounded into the audience, and they do do that. I felt like with Colton, he was fine to talk about it as much as anyone. He brought it up.

Right. And I'm sure he got frustrated, but then he talked about it in his book. His title of his book was The First Time or something along those lines. Again, it was... so you know you know maybe he got frustrated but he's certainly at what i never got her like i don't want you know getting let's let's not lead with it i mean the title of his book was my first like the it was a reference

to his virginity i guess you got to go with you know if you're trying to monetize this experience which a little bit seems like he's down to do a lot yeah then you go with what gets you the most attention i guess his relationship with people in bachelor nation is also kind of a complicated one because colton's just a very nice guy like when you meet him you're just have nice there's no it's yeah, what a nice guy. But he never really got close to anyone. And a lot of us were like, we'll always reach out, you know, if you have any advice. And some people make friends with certain people. And he just never really connected, which is fine.

And then you would kind of see things that you didn't know. You question the sincerity behind it because there was there seemed to be a very deliberate it was he was very like we're all brand conscience uh-huh but there was a level of he's really in tune to all all of this but like he never you never really got to know him on a personal level and that's fine but it was always like i don't really know this guy yeah well that i mean that's kind of the closet for you yeah you know and it seems to me that he was very invested in just not being gay you know what i mean like it really seemed like you know this last year and and again i'm like i've i've followed the news a tiny bit like i've read the headlines

and never the stories in the last few days i've read a few of the stories but i didn't know much about it as it was happening um i i think if he is invested enough in being straight you know six months ago um he's he is running an elaborate sort of con on himself yeah you know what i mean and like and and it's and having been through it myself and having you know being catholic myself and and all of stuff, it's like you don't want people to get to know you too well because they might notice something and bring it to your attention that makes you uncomfortable. They might force a conversation with yourself that you're not ready to have. That makes sense. You know? Yeah.

Which is sad. It's so sad the quote that kind of stuck out was when he said that um when he got picked to be the bachelor he said he was thankful that god he said god okay god is making me straight that's i felt that did you yeah yeah i mean i i don't think i ever had that conversation with myself but i like that level. You related to the mindset. Self-delusion, yeah. For me, it was, I chose a college that was very Catholic and very conservative and very homogeneous.

And I really did, this wasn't at the conscious level, but I was like, I mean, I knew, and I had told a few friends that I was not straight for sure. But I was like, maybe I'll just go to this place and normal will just wash over me. You know, it'll just, it'll just seep into me like tiger balm or whatever. And then I'll just graduate and be straight and normal

and everything will be fine. Like, I don't think I thought that, thought that, but that definitely deep down motivated the decision. And so, yeah, I don't think he was necessarily thinking, oh, God made me straight by putting me on The Bachelor. But I think I do get that that's like part of the subconscious, unconscious conversation. Were you out when you were on,

like when you were wanna be a VJ going through that? Yeah. Were you out of the closet then? I was, yeah. I came out like, you know, the process of like telling friends in late high school to like telling my family just before my senior year of college

was like, that was kind of my whole, that was my process, right? And I thought I was kind of rushing. To go from Girlfriend Files a Restraining Order in September of last year to coming out on ABC in April of this year is real fast, but that's another story. Anyway, I was-

Which we'll get into. We'll get into. Yeah, I was out to family and friends and all that, but at the time I hadn't, in 98 or 99, if you wanted to come out publicly, you needed to do what Colton just did. You needed to do an interview with somebody.

There was no social media or blogs or whatever to live your whole life on. And I kept, I wanted to say something on the air, but my bosses were always like, let's do a special around it. Let's do a National Coming Out Day special around it. And I was like, I don't know if that, I don't know if I want to throw myself a party necessarily.

So it's just like each year we would be like, should we do, do we do something? Do we have like Rufus Wainwright on and do a show or whatever? And we just kind of never did. Ultimately I came out in Out Magazine, like I was out, but I did the interview with Out Magazine in like 2001 or two

or something like that. And by then it was like everybody knew. But yeah, I hadn't had like the public nobody cared honestly is like is the thing like it's you know you you have to get somebody or had to back then get somebody to do an interview with you sure which meant you had to be the kind of person that a magazine would want to interview sure which i wasn't and am not so so that was kind of my thing by the time i you know had the conversation with the magazine I was you know I was in it and secure enough gotcha you know when we were texting you know a lot of the reactions kind of trying to dissect all this with Colton you mentioned and I've heard this from

my other gay friends it's like being in the closet can be a very dark kind of place to be in and very scary. And while not necessarily excuse for bad behavior, it can explain why bad behavior can happen. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because he's 29, 30? Late 20s. Late 20s. If you're in your late 20s, you know, and you're not out yet, you have heard decades of bad information about yourself. Like malicious, misinformed, destructive, bad information about yourself. And from people that you trust.

From teachers, from your family maybe. Not from people who are like monsters. Just from like, from people who don't know any better themselves and are maybe maybe their intentions are good whatever yeah but you've heard so much bad shit about yourself and about what will happen to you if you if you are out if you're gay or whatever um so it's it's difficult to navigate um and you have to do it alone because you can't if you tell anybody then the secret's out, you know? Telling somebody else is kind of as good as telling yourself

what you're trying not to do. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, totally. Well, because you're kind of breaking that seal of like, well, what if they, you all maybe live in fear of not being able to trust them

so you just don't. Exactly. And it's not like, and the bad information that you get, it's not, like I said, I'm Catholic also and we're not, you don't get the you're going to hell conversation. It's not like and the bad information that you get it's not you know i'm like i said i'm catholic also and we're not you don't get the the you're going to hell conversation it's not like

that would almost be easier because it's so that's so easy to shake off you because it's like it's a cartoon it's aggressive it's more like a well i guess it's your choice you know right passive aggressive shame yeah just yeah shaming it's just a low like it's not you're going to hell it's just that like what you are is kind of shameful you know which is worse i mean i had a grant my grandma i mean would when we were younger she got old but like i'm very catholic and so it's just a lot of yeah it's shade i'll pray for you is there anything worse thanks grandma yeah what a great time to tell the time and we're doing that with movement people uh one of my favorite watches that i have is this movement watch right here it works with everything that i'm i'm wearing uh they have a watch kind of for every situation and you

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Oh, no. What's Holy Hour? I thought it was a thing. Turns out every hour, she would just go to church and pray for her loved ones. Every hour? Every day. Wait. Once a day.

Oh, okay. Once a day for an hour. Okay, okay, okay. I thought you said once an hour she would go to hour? Every day. Wait. Once a day. Oh, okay. Once a day for an hour. Okay, okay, okay. I thought you said once an hour she would go to the church. No, once a day for an hour she would go and pray for all the sinners in her family. That's fair. I was like, thanks. That's fair.

You have a big family. Probably take the whole hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't. My family was not like once a day churchgoers, but certainly, you know. I mean, we were, but grandma. Sure. Okay. But yeah, it's a tough place to be and it's, and everybody has to do it alone, which is

really hard. And yeah, I don't, I mean, it's a difficult thing because i feel for him on one hand but on the other hand you you know you you can't make other people feel unsafe you know i have a sister who came out as gay um is gay and without getting into too much detail that she there was a scary part of her life a catholic family and my parents accepted it really well but she didn't know that that they would yeah and so there was a lot of fear that she had and and there was thoughts of self-harm and and and a really dark you know it's and you realize this and you I've you're like oh my god why did you ever worry about this but you know it makes you realize for all the young people who are

you know growing up and have these thoughts and wonder am I gay or you know, it makes you realize for all the young people who are, you know, growing up and have these thoughts and wonder, am I gay? Or, you know, or they question their sexuality. It's a real problem out there. It's still a problem. It is, you know, obviously you hear the horror stories of the past. And so you want to give it a space where you want to have like a graciousness and understanding and empathy to the darkness that can can happen right and and so like yeah i mean i i messaged colton and dm to him it's like i'm just listen congratulations yeah i'm i i hope you found your happiness and i i'm really happy for you right at the same time there is this kind of all the decisions he's made leading up to this

that you're you're still grappling with for me i grapple with it even more because you know i talked to cassie after all that news broke really and i'm not going to share the things that she shared with me specifically but what i, what I can share is that, you know, the information that's out there is all like what happened. Right. But when you hear that person who was affected by it, tell that story. Right.

And you hear it from them. It completely changes your perspective from, Oh, that's kind of creeping weird too. That was a scary, that's a scary situation to, to to to hear that person tell a story and know that when that stuff was happening she had legitimate fear yeah that's yeah and that's that's a dark sad thing and it was news when that came out but it wasn't it wasn't the national news that it was news when that came out, but it wasn't, it wasn't the national news that it was for Colton to come out.

And for a lot of people, it felt like what happened to Cassie and her being a victim. Right. Was almost kind of brushed under the rug. You know, it wasn't, it was okay. All of a sudden.

Yeah. It, for some people it was like, it was like, it had a, not as much, but like a, an inkling of the, like when Kevin Spacey got accused of all those tragic things.

And all of a sudden he tweeted, by the way, I'm gay. Kevin Spacey. As if like somehow there was, oh, well then nobody, you know. You don't get to do that. It wasn't, yeah, yeah. And so there was a lot of people kind of, I'm trying, I want to, I'm so happy for Colton. Right. Wow.

And I can't imagine the pain you must feel. However, what is, how do we process what happened here? Yeah, it's a complicated story. And like, the media is not good at complicated stories. You know, especially when they get into issues of people's, like freedom and liberation. Like it's still, you know, equality for queer people

is still pretty new culturally, right? So it's hard, I think, for them to tell the story that includes the fact that queer people can also like have moments where they're the villain of the story. That makes it very complicated, you know? But there is, when when you're in that dark place there's almost no way you won't create some kind of collateral damage i did for sure i don't know anyone who didn't really um you know this is an extreme case um which makes it that much weirder that like this stuff so this stuff happened like september of last year right yeah yeah so that's

like late last year it is not yet mid this year so to go from being that that desperate to not be gay to go to to like be going on television and saying i'm gay and then on top of it yeah and then on top of it i'm i have a reality show about it coming up complicates it it makes it really complicated because he's got a lot of work to do uh for sure it like it's he doesn't strike me as somebody who knows himself super well and there's a lot of work in that department that needs to get done and tv is not the place to do it yeah and i think that's where some of the his peers who, well, maybe they don't know him know him, have known him.

First we started hearing, "'Hey, Colin's on GMA tomorrow with Robin Roberts." And the first thought was, "'I think he might be coming out.'" I hope, great. And then immediately we started hearing rumors about this Netflix documentary. The thought was that tracks.

Yeah. Okay. Like that wasn't a shock to anyone. Okay. So then you think about the process, right? I mean, so Colton clearly had to go to GMA and say, hey, I want to come out. Are you guys interested? Yeah.

He clearly had to go to Netflix and say, hey, I'm coming out. Are you guys interested? Yeah. Like he sold his story to Netflix. Before he did GMA. Before he did GMA. Yeah.

And pitching stuff takes a long time, you know. It does. Yes. I'm in the process. I've been in the process before. It's a lot of work and a lot of process, a lot of meetings. And that's when people are in the office. Yeah.

So who knows when the pitch deck for because that gma interview is going to be part of that documentary yeah 100 yeah does that change your pers i mean that's where you start questioning like does it matter do i does it change anything did you question his sincerity i don't know i don't know either and i don't um i just don't think it's the healthiest choice for him right now so all that aside you're just like if i were his guide yeah yeah if i were gus kenworthy somehow you might say um you might say let's just not do it let's let's stick a pin in this and do it in a year yeah um or let's at least wait a week before we announce it to have the interview come out and then people are still sort of processing it and whatever.

And then the variety story comes out that there's going to be a reality show. Technically, they didn't leak it. I mean, who knows where it comes, you know. Right. But it wasn't like he didn't announce it. Right. They didn't comment but

you can you can leak that stuff without being yeah i don't know who knows but it did come out coincidentally right or uncoincidentally the same day yeah and and it's just like it watching people react to it and watching this thing happen you you understand how little people understand what coming out what coming out is. And it's not just being like, I'm gay and now I'm on the other side of this door and now my life is different and everything's cool and better

and I'm happy and I'm healthy and all that. It is a process. Like you have to deprogram yourself. You have to like, you know, take a moment and identify all of the bad messages that kept you so desperate last year to be straight. And like, you got to start to identify that shit and like, and, and tell yourself a different and better story. And that that is not just you don't do that with an interview with

Robin Roberts. And you don't do that with a reality show. You do that with like time, and, you know, good friends and a good therapist and mistakes and all that kind of thing. It is a long process. So I don't... Anything that's like, let us explain the gay world, my hackles go all the way up because there isn't one you know there there are many many and um and there's no one way to like live your life there's no like the idea of a gay guide is crazy um the idea of that gay guide being someone else who is equally like hot and wealthy and famous is like what the fuck are you going to tell me in this story you know well i think there's a lot of questions that we even with my gay friends too or straight friends like what is this documentary going to be right it like we

don't there's a lot we don't know right we just heard gay guide so then there's this kind of like is it like it's it almost comes across as if it's like 1990 yeah yeah and and being gay isn't as widely accepted as it is now it's more you know and we're gonna see colton go to the gay bar for the first time i've been to so many gay bars i mean straight people go to gay bars all the time now at least in you know la or new york it's not like i don't i i've gay friends they're like we're going to the bar i'm like okay it's not a thing it's not like am i gonna be okay i just go to a bar it's a bar but you know that was a thing for him you know he never did sure i'm i don't know that but i know yeah hey guys merch we got merch out there some really great hoodies breakup books sweats mugs great sayings like hey uh sorry i'm right or he's toxic

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I guess my question to you is, knowing that this doc does exist, how would you like to see it done where you can watch and think, this was a positive thing. This did a lot of good for the gay community, specifically for young men and women who are struggling with, with coming out.

I think it would have to be something not sexy, you know, like he's, he's obviously gorgeous and, and will be accepted with open arms anywhere he wants to go which is not the experience of 99 of the world um so that show i i can see where that show would be like fun and kicky and sexy and all that kind of thing but not helpful for anyone i i do think it's like, I want to spend time like honestly talking to somebody who was that committed

to like denying himself his actual identity. Like what is that? Where does that come from? How do you get over that? Like an in-treatment. Like with a therapist or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which he wouldn't agree to do because who

would agree to do it it would be horrifying to do that kind of thing publicly but it would be helpful yeah um i yeah i hope it's more about the process and less about colton and i'm not so sure it's going to be yeah i don't i don't know here's the thing if they were speaking with his family right yeah the relationship with his dad yeah yeah yeah i mean there's there's obviously there's a ton to get into and i and i built you know i don't i don't know him i know his family even less but i have you know i'm sure that they're loving and and nice and kind and mine certainly are but it's but they got a bunch of bad information and they passed a lot of bad information on to me and that made the process difficult and there's there are just a lot of real issues to get into. And TV doesn't do those kinds of things well.

Guy Branum, who's a comic who's gay, said, I'm going to butcher this. But he was like, Hollywood doesn't know what to do with gay men if they don't have abs or a hot comb. If you're anything but gorgeous or Jonathan Van Ness, i i don't i don't know where to put you and and i can speak to that because like after coming out going out for like hosting jobs um if if there if it was like if there was a gay element to it uh the casting directors would always be like get up a little bit which like if you want to see me snap, tell me to get up a little bit. Like, I for sure burned some bridges in some conference rooms. I can only imagine. Yeah, because that's fucked up.

Fucked up. That's real fucked up. And that's not that long ago. That's not that long ago. So, yeah, so I don't think that we're going to get the emotional, you know, psychological deep dive into Colton that could be helpful because I don't know that he's done it yet. And like if you are if you have been in the kind of pain that he clearly has been in for a long time and then you come out and you're and you look like Colton Underwood, I think it would be very easy to just slide right into the part of the gay world that's just partying your ass off. You know what I mean?

And I've seen a lot of people do it, where it's just like it took them a long time to come out, and then they did, and then it's just like you couldn't get a shirt on them for 10 years after that. They were just from one circuit party to another, and it's just like you couldn't get a shirt on them for 10 years after that you know uh they were just you know from one circuit party to another and it's just it's like and i'm sure that's a lot of fun and you do have to do that you know you kind of have to like it can be destructive it can be destructive it can be over correcting a little bit um and and i feel like he will get an invitation into that into that world that is not the most healthy. Another question too is, like you said,

like the timeline, right? Like six months ago, this thing with Cassie happened. Yeah. And yes, we can understand why being in the closet can lead to this trauma and having collateral damage, which is an excuse, but it does help explain it. And if he hasn't really done the work, and if he still, which is an excuse, but does help explain it. And if he hasn't really done the work and if he still doesn't do the work, is he potentially at risk of continuing

to hurt people around them? For sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. If you never examine this stuff, then you never get to fix it. If you never really take an honest look at the parts of the story where you're the bad guy, then you can't ever start to fix it. And he might not, he might not ever. It really might swing in that direction so far that he's just kinda having fun for the rest of his life and never really looking.

It's an interesting way to put it. Look at the story in which you're the villain of the story. Hard to do. It is, but we all have to. We all have to. We all have to. It can't, you know, the torture of the closet is a very bad thing.

But on some level, you know, you have to be responsible for your own actions and the way that they affect other people. So I don't know. I think he will, like 10 years ago, I had a friend, one of my first LA friends was this guy who was like tall and blonde and gorgeous and, you know, shoulders and cheekbones

and just, you know, whatever. And always like a little, you know, like diffident around women. I never connected the dots but whatever just like women would throw themselves at him and he was just kind of whatever um and then he was like uh he was like a part-time model and that became a full-time thing and then he came back from a modeling trip and he was like oh by the way i'm i'm gay now and i was like oh okay which i hadn't thought of right and uh and he was like you know he had the revelation had hit him like a month before. And I was like, okay,

well, that's interesting. And I was like, well, you know, I'm here for you. If you, if you want to go out, you know, and I'll take you around West Hollywood next weekend. And he, it wasn't this, but it was basically like, oh, I'm on a, I'm going to be on David Geffen's yacht for the month of August. So I'm not going to be able to make it. Or like, you know, Barry Diller's taking me to Corfu or whatever. Like within a month became so much better connected in the gay world than I will ever be if I live a thousand lifetimes because he was like, because he looked like Colton Underwood. So it's like, you can kind of get like, I feel like his gay experience is going to be

not one that's going to be super relatable if that makes any sense no it does yeah and and gus kenworthy's even less also we don't know the extent of his involvement right like it just said like he would make an appearance as as his gay guy or whatever so that could be i heard what i heard it was like legit like he was offered a hosting opportunity oh and took the work okay all right so to what extent yeah he's gonna be involved i i don't know yeah but yeah i there's a lot of us hey netflix there's a bunch of us out here there's a ton of i we may not have that signature gus kenworthy sense of humor but there are a lot of us out here who could show Cole Underwood around. I don't mean to.

I hope it's a positive show, and I hope it's more about, like, again, as someone who has a gay sister and friends, and you've heard the struggles, and it can be a really positive thing. And I want this all to be, like, just look back and be like, there was some hurt there was some damage but overall very net positive and i and i think there's still an opportunity there and i hope it is and i and i hope it's less about yeah you know i guess the question i think people raise sometimes is if the stuff with cassie never came, do we know that Colton's gay today? Interesting.

Interesting. Wow. Okay. Huh. So what do you mean? Do you? Well, I have gay friends who know Colton. And when the stuff with Cassie came out, there were thoughts of the only way he fixes this for himself. Is to Kevin Spacey it himself is if he comes out.

And that was just a conversation, a private conversation. And I've had a handful of gay friends who say that to me. And these are people who knew him? They met him or they knew him or some of them didn't know him. Okay. But there have been thoughts and opinions, again, because of the whole intense conversations about his virginity, and he didn't offer any answers. So when you offer, like, I'm a virgin, and I don't know why,

people aren't going to speculate. Sure. So there have been, you know, in his book, he talked about whether he was gay or not. Yeah. You know, and so there were just questions about like you know if he yeah if so that's the i don't know so their their theory is that he was already out to some degree i don't know if he was i don't i don't know i don't know if they have a theory but okay did

you know it's just like he after the cassie, he disappeared, turned off his Instagram. We never saw him. And he popped up a little bit, disappeared again. And now he is on GMA, has a Netflix special. So it might have sped the process up a little bit. I don't know. And does that matter? I don't know.

Yeah, it matters, I guess. God, I don't know. This. And does that matter? And does that, do we, I don't know. Yeah, it matters, I guess. God, I don't know. This is complicated. Also, what- So complicated. It really is. I also don't know, like, post his season of The Bachelor, like, what his life is. It was a lot of-

Is it just appearances or? From all I know, he spent all his time with Cassie and her family. Okay. And, you know, I ran into him a couple times, all nice, you know, and... Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how many... Yeah, I think he did the handful of appearances.

Okay. I don't know the details, but he spent a lot of time with her family. I gotcha. Okay, yeah, i don't know so yeah so their theory is that he was sort of trying to take back like the good guy it's less of a theory rather than just a question speculation of how like would we know by he coming out does that mean does that negate any of the stuff that he did to cassie and does that make it okay that he did those things not even okay but like does it take away this and see like do would he still be trying to live the lie if he wasn't forced like because you know after when you get accused of stalking a woman

right and you were the bachelor and your whole audience is women yeah it's over yeah and now great and now well clearly it's not over he's got a netflix show about it so what would his what would his career be if if he hadn't come there's no career right right yeah well even if the cast hadn't come out what would his career be well i mean it's a challenging world for all of us yeah right yeah who are you know we you know the matt james out and and hanging out with snap you know the tiktokers and and it's a listen i it's a we've talked about this in the show it's a very it it's a dark world in the sense that like you are treated like this kind of b plus a minus celebrity for six months you get this incredible access it's fun and exciting and it's a drug yeah

and then it stops and you're kind of left on an island to fend for yourself right and there's a lot of expectations you have built in for yourself and other people around you you get a shit ton bad advice you know on you know very different than but yeah you get a bunch of bad advice for people who aren't invested you have this complicated relationship with the show right you have a lot of frustration with the show yeah uh you have a anger with the show but they're not all you know like i you have like they do have your best interest in mind but like they're telling your story and so you get mad at some of the things that you don't love about your story you take it very personal it's a very sensitive issue a lot of people will get mad

at the show they'll say fuck them discourage them sometimes that's based off of the bad advice they get from other people around them and the advice that i will give to people and they often don't take it is like listen i'm not telling you not to be mad with the show be mad i've been mad talk to them vent let them know that you're mad but like if if you you know break your contract or you go out on a limb and just you know publicly say fuck you warner brothers or abc again i'm not telling you what to do but if you're getting that advice from someone else just know doesn't affect them at all yeah doesn't cost them anything yeah but it costs potentially you a lot just because you're you're a little sensitive and frustrated about the

situation and again i'm not telling you don't have a right to be but there's a way to express your frustration and there's a way to maybe work with the people. And maybe you might also be a little bit sensitive about something that you will download six months later. Almost even see how it was a positive thing. I use that example, like when Caitlin broke up with me the second time, I was like, how could you do that to me? How could the show do that? How could they let me propose to this? How could they do this to me?

Best moment of my tv career on the show it opened up so many things i look back and watch it and i'm proud of how i handled that situation yeah but in that moment i did not feel that way and i felt very wronged and i felt very jaded and yeah um so it can be very complicated yeah uh and and so colton or colton's no different than you know anyone else before him of like trying to make something of this experience and feeling that pressure and saying less yes to things that maybe you shouldn't say yes to yeah uh burning bridges because you're frustrated because you're getting bad advice from other other people it's a very challenging and arduous complicated thing.

While all while competing with your peers. Sure, God, yeah. Yeah, that is not a perspective that I've heard before. And you, like you grind. Yeah. I don't get, I don't know that he necessarily grinds. Like you have been very smart about like choosing projects and i and i yeah i yeah i think everyone tries to grind how they grind

and the decisions they make and the advice they take um differs is is the reality show with warner brothers no it's with netflix that has nothing to do with nothing which which i mean we'll just kind of cover this question like the idea that uh abc the the i've heard rumor the producers are considering making colton the first gay bachelor well first of all like that relationship is already complicated and probably damaged she's got a show with netflix that's not warner brothers it's so it's network. Again, like, so if they had a gay bachelor, not going to be Colton is my guess. Also, I don't, I still like, it's a different show. Like it works on Paradise.

But the bachelor show is about isolating people and withholding love from one person that you're attracted to and straight men and women fall in love with each other based off the isolation of not having time with anyone else. Yeah. So if it was a house full of people attracted to each other, they would forget who the lead is.

Absolutely. Immediately. They would be like, I don't know who. They would not forget who the lead is. They would not forget who the first cocktail party. I mean, I'm all for having a gay bachelor but i just it's not that show it's a different show it's 100 a different show that's what they've been trying to do it forever but but it always like it just has to involve like trickery yeah it's just be yeah didn't lance didn't lance host one maybe yeah and all the guys, there's many relationships and that's just a different show.

I don't, you know. Yeah. And that's why it works in Paradise. I hope they have different ways of incorporating, you know, bisexual gay people in Paradise, whether it's, you know, we had Demi and, you know,

I don't, there's this whole like, you know, traditional bachelor nation. It's like, well, if you don't go on the bachelor bachelorette, you can't go on Paradise. It's like, well, who gives a shit? well if you don't go on the bachelor bachelorette you can't go on paradise it's like who gives a shit like i don't know but there's these rule followers and so there's i hope they keep introducing gay relationships on paradise i just don't know how you're gonna do it on the bachelor with a lead yeah no that would be a disaster everyone everybody would be fucking the first night i'm sorry but i mean it would just be a house full of like 26 beautiful men that would just be a disaster i'd watch it but it would be

do you have a i've had people criticize like any problem like criticize producers for casting colton as if they that is another thing that i've seen a lot on Twitter. What are your thoughts on that? Which is that like, like he was being deceptive the whole time. Like he knew and whatever. That is not the way the closet works. Yeah. Like you, you know,

on some level, you know, but the, the amount of like the mental jujitsu that you're doing on yourself for years is so strong that it's like, it's not, it, you're not thinking clearly.

You're not thinking, you're not thinking clearly. You're not operating at the rational level. Plus he thought God made him straight. Yeah. Do you have any, do you like criticize production for casting him as a Bachelor? Okay. No, how could they have known?

I don't either. I will offer a criticism that I've said to some of them when it comes to casting overall, specifically with The Bachelor. It's interesting because I think becoming The Bachelor is becoming less and less of an attractive role. I think it's becoming harder and harder to get through it and seem likable or like, oh, that was a good bachelor and i do think it ages better over time you know um but one criticism i have is their old playbook doesn't seem to work anymore not at

all because their old playbook ironically you think of the bachelor and you think of super eligible guy what is that whatever eligible means to you but in reality what they especially the past three seasons are perfect examples of their playbook colton underwood peter matt james all great guys in their own right you know but like what they are and we well we didn't know colton was gay and you know but like what they are is obviously and they knew this is kind of in different reasons emotionally immature stunted men colton was the virgin didn't know why questions about his you know a lot of questions peter lived at home had this kind of very dominant mother yeah matt james by his own admission never been in love like so the they're casting the

bachelor who has this very limited emotional sexual history right but he's ready for love yeah and that used to work with like sean low right i think it used to work with kind of a more traditional because that's not the first time they've done this, where these kind of guys were more like, you know, I've never really, but hey, I'm ready. Yeah. And we got to watch this person fall in love and experience all these things for the first time. And I wonder, being in 2021 and being more sex positive

and being more kind of progressive when it comes to dating and having real-world, real world experiences, is it becoming less and less relatable to watch these guys who by their own admission for different reasons, have some growing up to do some Peter Pan syndrome, if you will. For sure. If you, I put it this way in my book, party of one available, wherever books are sold. I put it this way in my book, Party of One, available wherever books are sold.

If you have that kind of like delayed adolescence a little bit, like if you don't fully let yourself like be in love with somebody for a long time, like a lot of people do it when they're 13 and 14 and have that really embarrassing first relationship

where they throw themselves into it. But they're 13 and that's to be expected when you're 13. Or 18 or 19. Or 18 or 19 or 19 or whatever but when you do it like i was you know my first boyfriend i was 22 um and you know colton's going through this you know chaos now and whatever the other two guys have like kind of pushed that a few years off that gives like your heart is like a beer can bouncing around the trunk of a car for a long time it's just there and it's echoing and it's like it's in isolation and it's just you know you're frustrated because you see your peers enjoying themselves and you

can't get there and the first person to like go in and pop the top off, it will be a mess. Their clothing will be ruined because it's just hot and jostled and it's just going to be a fucking mess. And I think that is a little bit what's happened. Yeah. And it can, what you described, that sounds like something people would enjoy watching on TV

and it makes reality television. But I feel like we want our bachelors to overall be generally likable and relatable um you know when they you casted me like like i was an outlier in terms of the type of bachelor they would cast someone who like clearly has had dating experience and and and you know ari too and you know ari I had his shit and you know people criticize me for uh I I broke up with the most women outside of a rose ceremony and everyone breaks up with the same amount of women but I did it in a one-on-one situation I thought I was like being real and sincere and genuine and giving them their space and not just not giving them a

rose yeah but to some people kind of came across as dickish or not grateful you know and that's the problem sometimes with the show is like yeah like you know chris harrison would always come out and say hey you got 30 great men and women depending on the season you're you're lucky to be here but chris has never been like we have 30 people who are compatible for you there's no mention of compatibility in that show true it's solely based off of like they're alive they're generally good looking and they're here they're available you're lucky yeah and then there's this pressure of the lead to like and especially for the men right because you have women audience and like you have to be grateful and that's why while colton was the bachelor quite well liked because he was the most broken

up with bachelor in terms of women leaving on their own and there was a lot of sympathy for colton being like you know what poor fucking guy and that's how and and people watching it, it was kind of likable to see him experience that. You look at Peter and Matt James, it seems like the audience has been frustrated with this lack of experience. And Peter, and I like Peter, I consider him a friend, but he just came across as someone who was just like, I'm in love with everybody.

You know, and Matt kind of had his own like i don't know you know like yeah well there was a lot going on yeah and you know there's a lot going on a season and you had the race element too and that was obviously challenging for matt but there's no denying that like if should we be casting people who by their own admission have been like i have almost no experience when it comes to dating yeah that's what whatever happened to that uh like 60 and up bachelor season i think they still want to get it done but okay that's the that's the i can't wait yeah i think they still want to do it i mean there there's no signs that they're slowing down from a you know we got two bachelorettes uh it's it's cheap to make and highly watched and I think they're only going to keep making

more action content. Especially now that everyone's like under house arrest at a chateau or whatever. Yeah. They're going to have to jet set all around the world. What are your thoughts

on episode one without Chris Harrison? So, okay. Are you looking forward to it? Are you anticipating it? He is, what is his status on the show? Unknown.

We don't know. Unknown. I will say what I think is going to happen but i'll let you tell me what you think in terms of a audience member what you think like are you looking forward to it are you have are you curious of what it's going to be like it's uh it's two women hosting right yeah yeah tasha and caitlin oh god they'll kill it. They'll do great. I think, you know, Chris Harrison is awesome. He's great at the job. You obviously have a different experience with him than I do.

But he's a pro and everything, but he's also been at it for 20 years. And it'll be interesting to see new people. But with everybody claiming that they're a victim of cancel culture now, letting him go permanently would be not the world's best look either. I think it's another complicated thing. Yeah.

I consider Chris a friend, right? I think it's another complicated thing. It's very complicated. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I consider Chris a friend, right? And that doesn't mean that I haven't been mad at him in the past. I've gotten closer with Chris since being The Bachelor, right? But again, you're all very sensitive, right? So, and I believe in him. I believe in his ability to learn. I think he's a good person.

I would go to Chris for advice, right? At the same time, I recognize what he did was wrong. I also recognize as the host of the show, there's a unique amount of privilege that comes with it, and sometimes when you have an amazing opportunity, the room for mistake is small. So I can understand if there's a lot of people questioning if it's right for him to come back.

You know, that's I guess I'm all I'm saying is I can understand now talking about what I think is going to happen. I think, you know, obviously you have a lot of Chris supporters, you know, anti-cancel culture who just think this is a bigger issue will be frustrated. But I think most people are going to watch with anticipation, either out of curiosity or to see it. They, you know, people watch things because they want to see it fail. And then they want to say, I told you so. Right. But I think how many people you think watch the bachelor for chris harrison very few yeah but i do think he has his supporters and i think forget minus that the it's gotten politicized right but i think what's going to happen is your people will watch it at

anticipation and i think you will see taisha and caitlin do very well yeah and we just haven't watched a show without chris so we don't know what it's going to like so when you think about it you're like ah how does that work but i think what you will you will see it happen and and you'll see him do well and chris is a rock star host of so many things that i think people under appreciate what he's good at however as someone who's been in that world sometimes cast has gotten frustrated within leads have gotten frustrated with them is that i think where you were where you will see caitlin and tasia excel where chris didn't is the con like that's why they said they're gonna caitlin and tasia are there you know whatever we call it fine but whatever abc called it they they not hosting they were there in a supportive role to katie which is what you often saw chris do right throughout the season.

And I think you're going to see Katie and Tasha very much excel where Chris didn't because while you have women supporting women, you have two women who have been through that experience. Chris might be the host of the show, but he hasn't been through the, he never been through it. And sometimes he would frustrate cast like myself for talking to us. Like he knew what he was going through and saying things and talk about things that didn't happen.

We'd be like, what are you doing? You know, and you get frustrated. And so I think you will see a level of sincerity between those two that this is going to be easier for them. And I think the audience will like that. And I think it will actually come across very well. What they do with AFR and some of the more traditional hosting things that chris had to do remains to be seen you can always outsource that you can give it to a manual again or whatever but i think if they pull it off yeah i which i i i at

this point if you had to ask me what i think will happen i don't know if Chris will ever be back huh okay I think because I think Kate Tasha and and and Caitlin will pull it off right I think Paradise doesn't necessarily really Paradise needs a host less than any other formats right can you bring Chris Harrison back on Michelle season for the first time a woman of color oh yeah is that story going to be about Michelle the woman of color or is it going to be about chris coming back right i don't know if those optics like so when does he come back or is it does he just do the bachelor at that point if they've pulled off this because you could bring back male alumni to do the same thing or you could bring back caitlin and tation

to you know they still it's women talking to men yeah and supportive but it's still a shared mutual experience yeah if it if they don't pull it off if the ratings drop then i but if i think if they pull it off regardless of what i think should happen i think i i wonder if chris will be back i don't think like chris hiring lawyers i think it made it stickier i think it made it more you know complicated i mean there are the you know you hired a high-powered lawyer, and I think there's lawyers involved, and I don't know what that looks like

or what's going on there. Yeah, he's like a comforting part of the experience, but I don't think that the show suffers necessarily without him. And you're right. Having a female energy and having an alumni energy could make it much more interesting. Yeah, there'll be parts i'm sure where you're like you miss chris's kind of professionalism and traditional kind of hosting experience where it looks a little sloppy yeah but maybe people will enjoy that authenticity i don't

know right to your like to your and chrissy's point does it really stop the show from being enjoyable no i don't think so Except that he is a stone professional. Like I've worked with him a couple of times and he is like- No wasted words. Yeah, no, he's so good. So good. Yeah.

And I think they will be too, but that is, you know, I mean, it's a muscle that you have to kind of- I mean, well, the fact that we're going through a pandemic and they can't do live shows. has a like say what you like emmanuel did a great job with afr that was a taped thing they recorded for seven hours and condensed it into one hour oh my god

yeah what a nightmare yeah but like afr live yeah i don't think people appreciate and chris has been on this podcast to talk about it. Like the skill involved and how, how good Chris is at that. Yeah. And how much people, if they get back to live AFRs and if Chris isn't hosting that, it may not be as pretty.

Yeah. Yeah. It live TV is very tough. It's so much fun, but it's really, really tough. And especially for network. God.

And it's interesting. I mean, I, without getting into too much detail with there, I see articles out there and you know, all the reasons why Chris did this or Kristen did this or Chris supported, you know, signs that Chris has been problematic in the past,

but like Chris is the host of the show. And I know he has a producer credit but he isn't casting he isn't picking dates he's not he's not doing those if you want to maybe you can blame that if you want to criticize the show sort of thing fine but like chris isn't producing those things he's not deciding he's not you know he's not bringing anyone forward because they think they're great tv he's he's the host of the show and he's just keeping the he has bosses who have producers and and he's just guiding it on so like some of those things i think aren't you know aren't all on chris if you if there's things you want to criticize also i don't think some of the

criticism that the show gets is accurate. Right. There was talk after Chris got divorced of him being The Bachelor. Yeah, I remember that. Would that ever happen? Is that a way to tie it up? Well, I don't think back then.

I remember reading that article and Chris was like, that's never gonna happen. No one wants to see me on TV. And I think Chris is more like, I would never put myself through that. Sure, right. Also, yeah, I thinkris knows too much it would hard for him to sincerely go through the process you really have to you have to decide to be a little delusional to make it

work yeah if that makes sense it does but keep talking yeah uh, yeah, you have to be like, I'm going to deliberately not think about, is this normal? You know, Chris knows too much. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. All right.

That's all. And so I don't question. I don't, I, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's complicated. And I, I, as a friend of Chris, all I can say is I believe in his ability to learn from his mistakes. And I think he has a good heart. And I believe, yeah, I believe people can learn.

Right. You know? But then also, I mean, you know, this has been not a great year for the whole franchise because of a lot of different reasons. And now, now there's the Colton thing. So like ultimately, you know, what is your feeling about the future of the franchise franchise because of a lot of different reasons and now now there's the colton thing so like ultimately you know what what is your feeling about the future of the franchise right now

april 2021 i it's i i think so much about this stuff yeah um i don't think it's going anywhere i mean any talk of like oh let's just get rid of the show. Well, they were like, they answered that by adding another season. So yeah, if that answers your question, I, as someone who's had plenty of frustrations with them and they get a lot of things wrong, I don't think, you know, people talk about casting on the show. I know that their casting process is, they spend way more money and have a way more attention,

way more intense screening process than any other reality TV show out there. Right. I know that people who have tried to get on The Bachelor and were denied based off of their social media for whatever reason, have ended up on shows. Wow. People that they wanted to cast. Yeah. People they were like, and were denied based off of their social media for whatever reason have ended up on shows people

that they wanted to cast yeah people they're like this guy's or this girl star yeah and they're like we can't do it because but bachelor nation is intense you know people take that for granted like there are not an infinite a number of podcasts about temptation island like there are the bachelor how many bachelor podcasts are there truly i don't know you can count an infinite number of podcasts about Temptation Island like there are The Bachelor. How many Bachelor podcasts are there? Truly. I don't know you can count. No, you can't.

I bet over a hundred. Oh, yeah, of course. Not many. Oh, I mean, I'm talking like, yeah, niche fan, like, yes. I'm not talking mainstream, but like it's a passionate and dedicated fan base,

which is great. Right. But they are paying attention to everything. Right. I mean, you know, I don't think this is, you know,

the, and I feel like this is not going to be the last time they have a controversy. Despite all that, they will cast someone that is revealed to be problematic through whatever actions they had in the past you look at the rachel k situation i mean some of her problems some of her problematic situations didn't come from her social it came from someone else's social yeah and someone else's social might

be i don't know if this is the case but like people have private accounts how do you screen that but once someone goes on and someone's like oh this this person's famous now i mean the girl who created the tiktok about rachel k her tiktok went viral and then she created more tiktok pardon me i don't know i think it came from tiktok and then she created a handful of other tiktoks to like double down and when people make viral tiktoks what do they always do they they try to duplicate the success that they had right so i just wonder if people you know and the bachelor keeps putting out the the reason why they started like releasing the names of these contestants wasn't to do with

anything other than saying hey bachelor nation we've done our best to try to screen weed these people out but if there's things you find let us know this is so that's the only reason why they do it wow okay but my question is is are people going to do that or are they going to hold on to it wait for episode one to drop and then make a tiktok when did this person make hers after episode one really yeah it doesn't in any way make what rachel did okay right but i'm just i'm confident that there will be another problematic casting in the future and it's not because they are deliberately doing it i mean they there are potentially have lost their beloved host they have a lot like i you know it's a i i'm friends with some of these people not all these people but it's been emotionally like that you know do they want to work there and you know it's like it's a lot very quick question what kind of mental health care is there for people who've been

on this show show could do better about that sounds that way um something i've said to them a ton of times but at what point they need to do a better job they need to do a better job of prepping their cast before the show it's a different world than it was seven years ago social media is a different beast it's happened faster than we all expected right yeah And that's another thing with casting. Like, how can they monitor all these abundant platforms? Yeah. But they need to do a better job.

I don't have an answer to that, but I do think they could prep their cast. The show needs to do better, though. Okay. And I don't know. I think they could do a better job, and I think they are trying, but you can always do better with this stuff. They can always do better trying to cast the right people and non-problematic people yeah and they should do better and they should want to do better but i don't know if like what i do know

is that when they're not deliberately trying yeah to do it um and and but overall i think i don't think it's going anywhere because we're still talking about it. Yeah. I'll watch. And I just hope that, I hope we just try to learn from it, I guess. You know, I think there are OER learning opportunities everywhere. And I think if our goal is to try to learn from it and be better for it, then I think

we're in a better place rather than taking people down. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. Dave, I feel like we could do this forever. I mean, I'm here. We have a season coming up. We have many seasons coming up. The Bachelor is going to be on every Monday

and sometimes Tuesday for the next year. Please come back and recap. Oh my God. Anytime. Can't wait. Anytime. We thank you so much. Thank you for being my first studio thing in 15 months.

Beep. On April 23rd. Friday. This Friday. I will be a guest on Dave show Friday 40. The Friday 40. Yeah. I can't wait

it's gonna be so much fun check that out I'll put a link up on my Instagram appreciate it yeah you can watch from wherever you are

it's a buy a ticket you get a YouTube link it's a it's a comedy it's a comedy game show it's gonna be a ball Dave's book

Party of One Party of One wherever books are sold and you also have a podcast I do yeah Homophilia with my friend Matt McConkie where we get into

these sort of LGBTQ plus issues with awesome queer people and yeah listen to that one

I have a bunch of podcasts awesome but that's the relevant one we can't thank you enough thanks so much for listening guys I hope you enjoyed it we'll be back tomorrow

with a very exciting episode to talk about being an introvert and an extrovert, the history behind it. It might explain a lot of things to a lot of you people, the history behind it. With Susan Cain, she's like the foremost expert, the author of the book Quiet, who has studied this stuff for a long time. We have a great episode with her. Be sure to check that out. And and if nothing else we will see you tomorrow