The Viall Files - E271 Being Creative with Ben Folds

Episode Date: May 26, 2021

Today on The Viall Files we are joined by recording artist Ben Folds. Ben has a new podcast called Lightening Bugs which explores creativity, so Nick takes some time today to discuss all aspects of creativity and how each person can find artistry in whatever they do. They break down the difference between performative and creative actions especially in relation to social media. Nick and Ben also discuss the importance of empathy and how putting yourself in someone else’s shoes is an adult way to face adversity.  “It is a sad thing when the moment of being wrong is equal to being evil.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Usual Wines: http://www.usualwines.com use our discount code VIALL for $8 off your first order and try your first glass on us! Finding You: Make plans now to bring a friend, a family member, or even significant other to see ‘Finding You’, now in theaters everywhere. For more information or to find tickets to a theater near you, visit findingyouthemovie.com. Beachbody: Text Viall to 303030 to get a special FREE trial, no obligation membership. Each & Every : http://www.eachandevery.com/VIALL use promo code VIALL 30 for 30% off  Ritual: http://www.ritual.com/VIALL for 10% off your first three months  ReliefBand: http://www.reliefband.com use promo code VIALL you’ll receive 20% off plus free shipping and a no questions asked 30-day money back guarantee. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @actualbenfolds Listen to Ben's Podcast! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lightning-bugs-conversations-with-ben-folds/id1554519768 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Don't waste your wine, people, all my single serving friends out there that enjoy a nice heavy glass of wine, but don't want to waste the rest of the bottle. Usual Wines is the wine for you. Each bottle is 6.3 ounces of heavy pour, about a glass and a half, added bonus, zero grams of sugar. Usual has a red blend, a rosé, a sparkling white wine called Brut. So go check out their website at www.usualwines.com and use my discount code VIALL for $8 off your first order and try your first glass on us. What's going on, everybody?

Welcome to another episode of The Vile Files. I am your host, Nick, and we have the team in studio today. Well, most of us, because Chrissy is in Montana. That's cool. How's everyone doing? Good. How are you? How was your trip?

Great. Did you enjoy yourself? I did. Did you like putting Hawaiian music on your Instagram? No. You were going to say something, Amanda. I was going to say the person I'm currently seeing told me they had a nightmare that I said, you're a terrible man and I insist we get married.

So that's my big week update. Wow. I had a dream that Natalie kept telling her friend that she had to text her man. And I was like, what? And she was like, don't worry about it. And then I saw her off in the distance, taking selfies and butt shots and sending them to someone. And I kept being like, what are you doing? She's like, don't worry about it. It's a terrible dream. We have a great episode for you today. The one and only Ben Folds is with us. And I had such a fun time talking to Ben. Just, I mean, obviously a musical genius and an intellectual and just a really fascinating guy and just had a great time talking to him about life and his music career

and how things are different in the world today. And we just kind of go down some fun rabbit holes. And I think you guys will enjoy the conversation. I mean, if you enjoy the things that we talk about on this podcast, you will enjoy and love this episode. And I can't thank Ben enough for taking the time across the world in Australia

and chatting with me and sharing his stories with us. Don't forget to send in your questions at asknickatcastmedia.com, cast with a K, for our Ask Nick episodes. And be sure to check those out on Monday. And if there is nothing else, let's get to Ben.

Ben, thank you so much for joining us. It's a real pleasure to have you. Good to be here. So you are in Australia, yes? It's the morning there. I'm in Australia. Yeah, it's 10 a.m. Did you live there before or were you there when the pandemic happened and you just kind of stuck around or yeah yeah yeah um i've lived here before oh you have okay yeah yeah uh i mean my kids were born here and everything but um just happened to be here during during the beginning of the pandemic. And I was on tour with orchestras trying to see that tour out and didn't finish the tour, got canceled.

And yeah, I mean, we were thinking of coming back to the US, but there was a while when it was pretty crazy traveling back and one thing led to another and sort of here here here we are there you are what is uh what what's some things you miss about the state i've never been to australia and i've been dying to go so oh it's a great place are there things particularly that you'd miss or not so much? I'm curious as someone who's been there for a while. My life has been all traveling. And I used to live out over your left shoulder there in Santa Monica.

For those of you at home who don't have a camera, his back is to Santa Monica. I think the world is different enough and sort of uncertain enough that I haven't really stopped to think about, oh, you know, like I miss going to the Staples Center to see the basketball game or anything like that.

I mean, I was trying to think of something I missed so I could get all warm and fuzzy about it, but actually I'm just like, you know, I'm just hoping everybody's okay and okay with their business and life gets back to normal and stuff. And it really hasn't occurred to me. I think that's why I stay busy. So I don't miss stuff. That's a, that's a great way of going about it. You obviously, you, you've launched a podcast, so congratulations. It's great. And obviously, it's called Lightning Bugs.

And that's been such a big part kind of of your whole life, like a big inspiration for you. Like you wrote a book about it. You have a podcast about it. Like tell us a little bit about that and why that, was it a dream that you had? Yeah, and it's not so much the dream as this, you know, I'm a songwriter and I like a good metaphor. And that dream is a good metaphor for what an artist does and why, you know?

So the dream itself wasn't like some kind of earth shattering thing that I just can't seem to stop thinking about as much as my whole life, I've made stuff. You know, I'll see something and I'll go, oh, that's a phrase. Those are two notes and that's what I build. And I know other people that see spaces where there's no building. And they're like, oh, there could be a building and walls.

And so different people have different artistic urges, but, but, but mostly the, the, the dream links it together because the dream was about being, you know, when I was a kid, I probably had this dream when I was two or three years old about being, playing with some kids in the backyard and I could see the lightning bugs and the other kids couldn't see them. And I would be like, oh, yeah, I'm pretty cool. I can see the lightning bugs. I put them in a jar and pass them around.

And then the kids were like, whoa, look at that, a lightning bug. And that's really very simply what making art is all about. And one of the reasons, you know, like a good metaphor should stand up to, you know, like multiple perspectives and you should be able to shake it up a little bit and see it still works. I think about those other kids in the dream. They may have been noticing other things like, oh, one kid notices the stars. He becomes an astronomer. The kid notices the parents talking to each other. He becomes, you know, I don't know, writes movies or something. I think that the thing about the dream is even though I was very self-centered, and I still am, but when you're two years old, the whole world revolves around you.

And I was like, yeah, I see the lightning bugs. I'm the man. I'm a badass. When I think of it as an adult, I think, well, you know, all these kids are seeing different things. And so the job of an artist is to see the thing that interests you, the thing that blinks, flickers. Now, I like the flicker because it flickers and goes away,

and that is the way it is when you're making something. The inspiration is a flash. It's a flicker. And you're like, God, why did I even start on this? You know, like a song, like I'm a couple of weeks into just tearing my hair out over a second verse. And I'm thinking, why did it even start? I hate this fucking song. And then, and then I remember, oh, I remember the little, little spark. Remember the, the, the flicker. So that, that's, that's why. And, you know, that comes around to realizing in my travels and my work and artistry and just growing up that almost everybody is creative and creatively frustrated in some way. And I feel it's helpful to, you know, let them in on the secrets of the trade.

I mean, if you're not in an artistic, specifically artistic career that does involve creativity, you can look to artists for how they get out of slumps or how they get past writer's block or all the various frustrations you might have as an artist do apply to someone who's putting the business together. They may not be inspired. It might be nice to talk to an artist and say, when I'm not inspired, I do this and this and this, and you might look at these things. And that's why in the podcast, I try to get everyone's recommendations for an exercise for that week of things that get them out of slumps. I, as a kid, I had this dream. I mean, my dream, I mean, like what I wanted to be when I grow up was a cartoonist for Disney. Oh, right on.

Yeah, I always, I was, and then I got away from it. I was also into sports. And as a rebellious high school kid, my art teacher told me to quit sports and focus on art. And I quit the art program and focused on sports. And I got away from that creative side for most of my teenage years and my 20s. And then life kind of happened and I took some risks. And I've really been more kind of in a creative space, you know, with podcasting and entertainment.

And that's been kind of really like the most exhilarating thing that I've been able to experience in my life is kind of go back to that, you know, creative, you know, creative side. Right. And I never thought I would tap into that. And it's, it does get frustrating because, you know because when you start trying to be creative again, you have all those moments and you get stuck and you get frustrated. You think you have this great idea. And I don't know how you feel. I don't know how to write songs or anything like that. And

sometimes it's just an idea. Maybe it's something on social media. Maybe it's a podcast idea. And I'll have this idea. And then you described it perfectly. It'll seem great in my head. And as soon as I sit down and try to apply it, I almost don't even know, like it gets almost scary and frustrating because you don't know where to go from there. And then you kind of like, you put the pieces together and I try, I don't know how you, but I try not to think about the end anymore. And I just keep, you know, like I always say, shavings make a pile, right and I just keep you know like I always say shavings make a pile right I just try to get the one next step done and then I don't even try to look at the whole picture I almost like try to look at it on a micro level right and and then just get to that next step and then all

of a sudden you pull back a little bit and it it's really satisfying when it almost sometimes looks like the idea you had in the first place, that spark, as you said. No, I think that's really interesting. I mean, you know, part of the challenge of art is that it involves technique, craft, and work. And those are very, if someone wants to think in terms of left and right brain, I don't know, maybe that works. But just as another metaphor, if you say, well, I'm a left brain,

I'm using my left brain for, because your left brain is more for pragmatism and tasks and stuff. And as soon as you feel, as soon as you start to use that, you cut off the other side of your brain or you're in opposition to that side, your right side, which is supposed to be more creative. And the two have to work together. So like you say, I mean, I think it's putting your head down and saying, I love that shavings make a pile. I hadn't heard that. That's awesome. It's like, it is very one step. You know, one of my favorite comments on making things was something I heard Philip Glass say in a documentary. Philip Glass, the composer. And he said he sits in his mind. He sits and he looks out at like a foggy, misty ocean, and he waits for the

tip of the ship to come through. And he just sees the point of it. He doesn't see the rest of the ship, but he's got something now. And he starts to work on that and wait for it to pull through. While a lot of people get very aggressive about it, you know, and they want to really, really A lot of people get very aggressive about it, you know, and they want to really, really have it done yesterday. And he waits for it because that's the way he sees it. And moving out at some point and you see the big picture is very hard to do when you've been inside. And it's very hard to be inside when you've been the helicopter view. So those things, it makes it really, really, it's very hard to be inside when you've been the helicopter view. So those things, it makes it really, really, it's tough. And the other thing you said that piqued my interest,

and I would wonder if maybe it's your perception might not be dead on about yourself as you went more towards sports and some other other things you felt you left creativity but there's loads of creativity in the way you do everything in life including sports i mean i used to love watching basketball when i was uh living in la i would see either i would see either team i didn't give a shit i just loved it and it seemed so it was so collaborative so creative it's like ballet i think i i yeah so i i think that there's uh you might have been more creative that makes a lot of sense too right i mean and in my uh adult life in a like i was i was i was in sales right and so for as a salesperson you you had i didn't think of it as art right but from you had to be creative i was always just the you know like a problem solver right you you have a problem And then I would try to reverse engineer, like, well,

how do I solve that problem? And there was a part of persistence I had where there's gotta be a way to figure it out. You know, I always, I always liked, you know, like sometimes it was silly things like with video games when I was a kid, right? There was a, you'd have like this, I remember this memory card we used to have in the PlayStation and sometimes it would have like a loading error, right? And you would have like a whole season on it and then like you wouldn't load it.

So I remember thinking to myself, there's got to be a way to figure it out. And I would, you know, get multiple memory cards and copy. And there was, you know, sometimes that wouldn't work out, but there always seemed to be some sort of solution. I just wasn't thinking of it yet. And I guess in a way that was always, I never thought of it that way in the moment as, you know, creativity or art or anything.

But I guess when you say it like that, those are kind of muscles that I was exercising without realizing it. Hot Girl Summer is here, baby. That's right. And whether you're hot or a girl or just want to be your best self and feel great, Beach Body is here to help you meet your fitness goals. With over 1,500 at-home workouts plus nutrition plans, Beach Body will get you the workout you want and have fun doing it. The popular workouts

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nutrition information, and support absolutely free. Just text V- 30 30 30 just got back from hawaii and uh a compliment that i got from natalie's cousin who we stayed with is how well i smelled and i was like well that's each and every that you're smelling on my body and the good news is it is natural without all the chemicals and crap that come in regular deodorants. He was like, we talked about it. And he's a new each and every customer because I was like, dude, do you know what you're using with the crap deodorants that you have? And he was like, what?

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use promo code v-i-a-l-l-30 at each and every.com slash v-i-a-l-l especially older cats in the music business i've known, like Elliot Shiner is a producer, engineer, one of, I think one of the best living old, he wouldn't want to hear me call him old, producers, you know, was telling me that what was so creative about the 60s and 70s recording was, it was all about problem solving. And you just mentioned problem solving and reverse engineering. And those things are creative. And my first podcast episode, I talked to Augustine Fuentes, who is a primatologist, anthropologist who wrote a book called The Creative Spark about creativity and the human species,

our evolution and survival depended on it completely. The difference between, I mean, there is some creativity and some other animals that you see now and then, but people's ideas is what got us from the middle of the food chain. We were getting eaten as regularly as we were eating. And anyone that might have a dead animal over their television set on the wall, it could be your face on the wall. And now human beings are like, we're on the top of the chain. And that's because we can solve problems creatively. the chain and that's because we can solve problems creatively. And to underestimate

the importance of creativity because you lump it in with little arts and crafts and just having fun when you get home from work is a mistake. The species needs to invest in it and education, the way we think and everything. and just reminding someone that they're creative is big yeah it was fun my uh my girlfriend a couple you know we've been dating you know for i don't know the actual months or whatever i don't know we don't have a anniversary you can edit that in because you might want to do that but she she was like i i'm not creative uh i asked her a question and i am like kind of to your point i was like of course yes you are i've seen you be creative i you know she she in that moment compared herself to me of the things that i was good at or the way i was creative right and i didn't like how she judged herself and i was like i i just gave

her all these examples of like i i don't know how to do that that was very creative and you know she has such a like you know she basically had all the ideas of like decorating the house right and i'm like that's so creative like i i you had so much input but it's weird how some people will limit themselves whether it's a and creatively because they you know they're not they don't think of themselves as artistic they don't paint or or you know write songs or you know whatever that you know more traditional like forms of artistry might be considered and um yeah that's got interesting you said that because it it i remembered her saying that and i was just like well that's well you know why why do we sometimes sell ourselves short uh when it comes

to certain things like creativity or what you know and maybe it's just an insecurity like any other insecurity that we have well it's you know some of it may be that that we're uh you know we're a society a civilization that uh is reliant upon people being experts at some things. And so the artists are then become experts at creativity. And somehow that takes the license. So then they're doing this. The artists are over here. They're the creative people.

All these other other people like you know i had a scientist um say the same thing to me that your girlfriend was saying he was lamenting i was after a show and i was doing a reading of my book and uh the the the conversation steered towards creativity and when it was over he stood in his line line to sign the book and he said man i'm so bummed it's just i used to be creative and now my job just i'm not creative like what's your job he's like i'm a scientist i mean that's that's creative i mean it's incredibly creative now it's another thing to to to argue about what is art sure yeah i mean i i and and that's a fun you know sophomore argument to have and everyone can, can get, get on with that. You know, like art is made by artists or art is something that, you know,

tells the future. Who knows what, what, what it does. I feel uncomfortable sometimes in pop music, hearing all these musicians and songwriters spoken of as artists, something kicks in when I think about art history and, you know, Matisse and Van Gogh or something. And I'm like, really? I mean, Cardi B sings her ass off. That's great. But is that, I don't know. I mean, maybe it is. Smokey Robinson. Yeah, totally. that's great but but is that i don't know maybe it is smoky robinson yeah totally yeah i mean

obviously and it's interesting enough a lot of people will have a lot of opinions on that and what is the right answer it's all all subjective circling back to what we were talking about before i was curious because i've always thought of myself as a where i've been told even by my parents i'm determined i'm persistent that serves me well at times it's been a even by my parents, I'm determined, I'm persistent. That serves me well at times. It's been a negative in my life when I was younger because you don't know when to quit or stop. As an artist and as a creative person, is there a time when you are working on a project or you have an idea and you realized that this wasn't working the way you thought it might and you just stopped or altered? Or do you always try to finish when you get that initial spark? That's a good question because it really, to me, comes down to how quickly you get to work, bottling your idea. And generally, the slower the process, the slower the process, the slower the process until it just dies. So I would say I have a lot of ideas during the day of all kinds. Anything from, oh, I got an

idea for an app, to I know what I could put in the living room that would look better than that IKEA thing to a song. And I'd say probably for me, maybe 75% of those ideas are just abandoned folly, something that entertains my brain for a moment. So I think it's probably healthier for me to view the creative spigot as sort of abundant, endless, just keeps going. That way I don't get scared that, oh man, this is my last idea. I had better put everything into it. There's an interesting phenomena that's happened on all my records, and I've noticed it happens on other people's records too, where

you spend most of your time on the song that doesn't make the album. Ritual now has an amazing protein powder. Here's the thing about protein powder. We all can use protein. It's not just for your muscle-building fanatics out there. No, no, no. It's not just for your muscle building fanatics

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free shipping and a no-questions-asked 30-day-L-L. You will receive 20% off plus free shipping and a no questions asked 30-day money back guarantee. So head to R-E-L-I-E-F-B-A-N-D.com and use promo code V-I-A-L-L for 20% off and free shipping. I was actually thinking about that. I was listening to some of your music today and I was wondering, I had that thought, I wonder if some of the songs that he might be most proud of are the ones that might be the least listened to or least popular. And I guess you answered that question. Well, there's that. And there's also that sometimes you work so hard

to try to realize an idea that you weren't able to admit that the idea wasn't really going to work. There was a song by the Beatles that you can hear on all of these bootlegs. And it's something about she's making something spaghetti you know that groovy spaghetti yeah it's the dumbest thing in the world they all sang it they did it in all these different styles they tried to make it work on three albums in a row they spent all this time on it maxwell silver hammer was like apparently took up nine tenths of the time and budget on the album that that it's on i don't know i'm not a huge beatles i love the beatles but i don't really know all

their albums and stuff um whatever album that's on probably has some john lennon classic that he wrote in a day and i guess uh yeah so so i i i think sometimes it's like there are some ideas that you have to be okay with letting go, like entertain yourself. Go, wow, that was a neat idea. Too bad that'll never happen, but that entertained me. Now let's go on. Because any idea you have, you are one of the two collaborators. You're half of the picture. The other half is your mistakes, other people around you, what the air quality is, or what time of day you had, all kinds of things

that are life will be your collaborator. And they will cut your idea down to size. Or they will, you know, for instance, I might come up with a piano piece in my head and realize it takes six hands to play it. You know, I hear it in my head. I'm like, oh, that's cool. But then when I sit down, I'm like, I can't play it. You know, like, and if I want this to be a solo piano piece, I'm going to have to collaborate with the reality that I have two hands and not six. And those things, or I just can't play something, or maybe you think of a flute part and you realize, oh, that flute part is actually out of the range of the instrument. So reality will cut even the simplest music piece down.

And that is your collaborator. I mean, you don't have to pay the reality royalties or anything like that, but you have to pay respect and realize that some of your ideas, you may just not be able to, like you said, reverse engineer how to get there. You just may not win that one. And you may have another idea that's incredibly achievable. you may have another idea that's incredibly achievable. And maybe sometimes go to that one because you get tired of shaving those, those piles like you're talking about. And you just kind of like want to want to do an easy one. And that's really good for the soul.

Sometimes do you get from an inspiration standpoint, like where do you usually get your inspiration? Is it in your own thoughts? How much like does the world around you play a role like for example obviously this world has been the world's been a little nutty the past 12 or 13 months in so many respects right yeah do you get a lot of inspiration with that and as a creator as an artist um do you ever try do you feel a responsibility maybe not responsible is the wrong word to you know bring people together

something like even this podcast like i always try to discuss ideas you know in a divisive world where you know i want to have a strong opinion and i want people to to react to my opinions but i don't want it to i don't want to conduct it in a way that people will stop listening right and i always i'll get very careful about my words because sometimes I will see the discussions that people have in this world. And I realized that as soon as someone started off a sentence in a certain way, anyone listening who disagreed stopped, right? And they just waited to listen. And as an artist, you think about that in terms of how your artwork is digest is digested or do you just this is my art this is what i want to do and people will take it however

they want but i won't i won't think about that when i'm creating it well what's kind of you know what's really nice about music is that the cliche that is you know, the international language, you can just play notes, you know, a big part of the communication of a musician. And, you know, you might be on the completely opposite political spectrum, social spectrum, cultural spectrum, the other opposing side of a musician and at that moment while the music is being played you've got something in common and uh now then when you start to add lyrics to it then we're then then we're like kind of in the uh minefield that you are talking about. But, you know, even like the most right, right wing as they come people, they feel something when they hear Stevie Wonder. If they sat down to talk to him about Black Lives Matter, something that it may be all

over. But then as soon as he started playing, isn't she lovely? Then they can't help it. I mean, it's Stevie Wonder. So it's persuasive, but it's also meaningful. The guy is actually saying something beyond below the words. It's just the music itself captures the wonder, the Stevie Wonder, of childbirth. And that's something that the left and right can all agree on, lyrics or no lyrics. So a musician has that advantage.

Where musicians find ourselves flummoxed is when it comes to words, like you're talking about. And the fact that most artists and people in your position and my position, one, you'd like to make your endeavor, your creation successful, and that requires approval. And on the other hand, an artist is supposed to, and kind of some artist handbook is not supposed to be as as dependent upon approval you're supposed to be like i make my art because i make my art you know but the truth is is that all creators of anything would be bummed if someone said you know 50 of your audience just flipped you off and turned your music off yeah Yeah. That's, that's not a great feeling, you know, especially if you think

it's for something that's not a legitimate reason, you know? So I guess it's a very long winded way of saying, I think, you know, the musicians have an advantage. And I think that advantage comes with a lot of responsibility. And the responsibility is kind of like this. If I'm playing a show, and one of the things that's been wonderful about my audience and concerts over my career is they can sing three-part harmonies. Absolutely stunning. Like just three parts, it sounds like the Mormon tabernacle choir or something, hundreds of people singing in harmony. If I tell them to sing three parts, we're all in the same room, we're all good. They're going to nail it. Two-part harmony, maybe that's a better metaphor.

But as soon as I started talking about anything political, or if now, you know, everything is political, if it was cultural at all, anything that separates and divides people through those triggers of culture or political, they wouldn't sing harmony together. So I've expressed my opinion and I've done my job as a human, which you're saying, like you want to express your opinion because that's, you're a person that has an opinion and it's, you're a person that has an opinion and it's informed and everyone should listen to everyone's perspective. However, if I say those things, they're going to cut off. So what am I supposed to do? Like on one hand, I'm thinking, well, you know, fuck them all. That's my opinion. I just said my

opinion. I'm entitled to that. And on the other hand, I've just deprived these people of the experience of singing two-part harmony together. So what was my job at that moment? Some people would say, oh, you're kowtowing and you're being a politician. You're not saying your real opinion. And the other people would say, shut up and sing. And then others would be like, I came here to sing harmony. I didn't care the guy right next to me had a red baseball hat on. I was

ready to, he sings good tenor. I was going to sing with this cat and now Foles just fucked it all up. And that's just the land, the landmine that's out there that we have to, um, that we have to deal with as artists. We have to make a decision, um, um in any given moment if we're okay with half the people tuning out and it's not just that they tune out they get upset their blood pressure goes up you know you don't want to be responsible for that i don't want to play a show and feel like i made 1 000 people like upset and bummed out that just not doesn't make you happy husband and wife are fighting on the way home and trigger to. Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

But it's interesting. Kellyanne and George Conway were at my show and I split them up. On the flip side, it must make you feel really good if you're ever informed or you see people coming together. You know, you play at a show and there's

thousands of people, right? And sheer numbers, you know that there at a show and there's thousands of people right and sheer numbers you know that there are different cultures different people ethnic ethnicities races ages uh you can assume a political affiliations and yet when everyone's enjoying and singing these two-part melodies and holding up their lighters and that must be a source of inspiration or and feel good uh and especially you get to see it i mean some of my coolest moments right uh like on a tv show like if i ever had to be on stage with like just a small audience of like a couple hundred people you hear that you feel that energy yeah that was always i i always wondered what it would be like to be in your position to be a rock star to be uh and and that must be such a euphoric feeling and so rewarding i it's such

i saw i i felt it on such a small level and to see you know you know some of your concerts and things like that i'm like wow that must have been just just such a wild moment. Have something that you wrote sung back to you, words that you wrote down connect in a way with somebody that it comes back to you in that moment. I think the one that was the most, I hate to say you do become numb to some of those things. And I think the reason is because to the extent that you lap up the approval, you have to also lap up the criticism.

And people are pretty free with it. Your subject, and both of our jobs, subject to pretty irresponsible, harsh, and mean criticism. Constructive is fine with me. Like that song has problems or you're slipping on this. That's all fine. But someone reminding me every single day about my toxic masculinity or something is really just not helpful for me. It says nothing about my artist masculinity or something is really just not helpful for me. It doesn't,

doesn't, doesn't, says nothing about my artistry at all. You know, what I figure is I wrote a really good character and, and awesome. They don't realize I wrote a good character. They, they think that's me. And, and, and so I take that as, as good if I'm going to take it, but at the same time, if, if, if I'm like, yeah, I'm the shit. shit i love this the crowd loves what i do this is awesome it does feel good but then you also have to carry with it all of the um all of the uh all of the negative stuff as well so i think you kind of try to protect yourself from both so you don't get yeah i guess it's it while listening to you say that your social media has blown up the past few years i've been heavily involved and you know having a platform on that

and and then you experience comments and likes and i've always said to you know some of my peers who might come to me for advice and i always warn them uh the positive affirmation you read about yourself can be just as damaging as the criticism because the only thing that's consistent between both of those negative and positive comments is none of those people actually know who you are they never met you in person they don't know your character and if you're going to believe and validate the positive comments, then automatically your subconscious is going to validate the negative. And so that's why as soon as you see one negative, it will really affect you. And hearing you talk- Because the door's open.

Yeah, the door's open. So to hear you talk about kind of protecting and having perspective from the audience, it sounds a lot like that. It's kind of fascinating. And that's the thing about creativity and art. It's full of contradictions. Everything has contradiction. It's like, oh, I'm inspired. Okay, it's time to get technical.

Oh, that messes up my inspiration. You know, so there's that. And then there's like, oh, it's a great, this is a great communication. I'm expressing, people are expressing back. Then suddenly it's like, oh, I got to take the good and the bad with that. And I have to care what they think, or I have to not care what they think and yet make something that communicates. And all those things fight against each other. And the, and the real, the word that always will come back and back and back is balance. It's just that balance, balance between looking at the pile of shavings, as opposed to seeing it from a helicopter and just realizing it's this little pile of shavings. If you go far enough back and you realize that

nothing lasts, nothing matters. It's time to get back in the spaceship and come back to earth. It's crazy stuff. But I do feel it's a really sad thing that at the moment being wrong is equal to being evil. And it makes it very difficult to communicate, to create a perspective, an idea, to have someone put themselves in someone else's shoes, because art, creativity is all about empathy and exchanging being in someone else's shoes. So the job of musical artists right now is really as much as possible, try to to trigger everyone's trigger happy go motherfucking nuts uh way of thinking and at the same time give a perspective a real perspective stand in these shoes for a minute stand in the shoes of some you know someone who's like a single

parent and got seven kids and happens to believe this thing. Yeah. It's hard. It's great, but it is a very important key to life, right? Because, and that's something I've learned in my life or when people ask about relationships and I always just try to like, well, just if you can, as hard as it might be, how would you feel if you were on their side? Just put it all, just reverse the whole thing. And I mean, that's helped me just, especially when I'm most mad, you know, and you get really mad about someone. You're just like, how could they possibly do this? how could they possibly do this?

And you just, sometimes it's, there's a difference between, you know, people I think are afraid to do that because they don't want to validate that other person or what, you know, it, it just helps you understand the empathy.

It might not give them the excuse. They still might be in the wrong, right? That person could still be in the wrong by your, by your standards, but at least you will understand what's going on and you might feel a lot less anger by doing so. Like maybe there's still a, they can be wrong, but that might help or lead to a resolution

if you can empathize and just understand their perspective because they're probably not evil. They're probably not a bad person. They just have a point of view that's different than yours. And maybe so many days and months of things that happened to them led up to this moment that they reacted that way. And then we sometimes forget that and then we'll get into our own thoughts and anger. Do you think that cancel culture is making art harder? I've had an allergy to the word the phrase cancel culture um i think because

it's it's emphasis on the on the wrong thing we've always had the right to not purchase or tune in to something based on any kind of feeling you know know, it's like that's been going on since commercial anything happens. Like you're perfectly, you know, look, if you can't separate someone's behavior or their alleged behavior from their art and that's going to mess you up, listen to someone else. Now, what I think makes it difficult, my personal opinion on this stuff is that more empathy, period. That's it. Just remember there are two sides to any and everything, everything. And when you see someone you don't agree with, like you said, you put yourself in their position. That's what a mature adult should do.

A lot of people that I don't agree with, and this is, I think, a problem with the word cancel culture. I think it's used mostly by people I don't agree with. And so I kind of don't want to give it too much credence. I feel like social change is difficult. There's always going to be ruffled feathers and probably some collateral damage. And we'll look at it from the helicopter in a hundred years and go, that was a rough time, but it's a really good thing we did that. Now there's a whole swath of people in culture that are more recognized part of things. It was a good thing, but boy, was it painful getting there. But what I don't like is, I think what is dangerous is

people cutting off from any kind of discussion at all. Look, it's okay to be wrong. It's fine to be wrong. Be wrong. Be wrong as hell. That's awesome. Then sit the fuck back and let someone kindly explain to you why you were wrong. I'm down for that.

Totally. But I haven't found that in the discourse these days. The thing that worries me there is because if someone has a question, they're going to seek an answer, right? And if they don't feel comfortable seeking out that answer with someone who might disagree with them, who might enlighten them about a different point of view, they'll still have that question. And then they'll go to what they think is a safe place. And that's where I think people can get radicalized on both left and right. And then that's where those conversations go underground. I'm tired of having conversations with people in person and they say, I would never ask this or say this in public, but this is how I think, or this is how I feel. And it's frustrating. But I empathize.

I understand. I have the same. I'm guilty of that too, where it's so tragic and it's frustrating right but i empathize i understand i have to say oh yeah me too i'm guilty of that too or it's just like i want to talk about this but i don't know how to do it in a way that will i can just because i'm still ignorant about so many things or you go you know you you you hear one discussion but you have questions and what does that say about me that i think that because we we get to a place, like you say, like I agree with you. A lot of the things that I agree with, I will see people out there sometimes do it in a way where I think, how is this productive? What did we accomplish? Did you, were you heard and are you right?

Or did anyone who disagreed with you or who was on the fence learn something or did people who agreed with you just patted you on the back like and i'm not i'm not sure the former is happening as much as it should you know well i think what you just said about going underground with your idea or your your point of view is like a macro version of bottling it up. That's what happens when someone can't express and they just bottle it up. They get pissed off. They have internal conversations and they don't learn anything. And I do think, I mean, I think the most radical thing I'm willing to say is that I do think that it's childish and that the childishness perhaps could be explained by looking at the venue inside which we communicate

and how beholden that venue is to pure youth and nothing but youth because youth is wonderful it's idealistic it's uh energetic it's creative you gotta have youth but just by itself you know what it is it's childish yeah and our venue out there for discussing all this including the channel that we're on right now is policed by children who don't know history yeah and. And, and that's, that's all it's. And, and so, so you will get someone, they'll, they'll pull one thing and they'll say, all you need to know about so-and-so is this. All you need to know fits in a tweet. No, come on.

It just doesn't work like that. And, and people that I like and respect and care about tweet shit like that all the time. All you need to know about so-and-so is that all you need to know about Britney Spears is this. All you need to know about anybody. Really? Yeah.

That's all you need to know. And it's funny. Cause I, and I wonder if they do it on purpose cause they just know that it will get a reaction because you're right. Because, of course, all they need to know. And then someone on the other side will say they will point out all the fallacies in that statement. And then another person will point out all the fallacies in the other statement because they either overgeneralize and or make these wild statements that have.

And it's. Yeah. And we're on the same page. It gets frustrating because it's yeah and i we're on the same page it gets frustrating because they're being creative well you know well they're being performative thank you yes it's yeah well what is that what is the difference in your mind between performative and creative because on social media it feels like everything by definition is performative because your main goal seems to be engagement, traction, going viral, right? And is something creative, is it validated because it goes viral? Or

I don't think so, but it seems to be the new norm these days. Performance is in the toolkit for a creative idea. And I was waxing about left and right brain. I would call that then the pragmatic side, the craft side. A performance is a skill and a craft and a way to create a vessel to have an idea. It doesn't mean you have an idea. You might be a great performer and you're just performing an empty, you've shot a blank. And most of that stuff is, you can be an amazing performer and get all kinds of eyeballs. If there's something more to to it i think it lasts if it's positive that's always a good thing but you're right i mean people have learned the craft and the skill of getting the attention but in that in and of itself again is childish you know uh uh when we're children we don't have to think about the long term

as much and i mean it's not like children versus older people i know more older i know more older people that are just fucking idiots who didn't learn in their 70 years as much as some people i know that are 15 you know uh but it's a way of thinking you know so yeah i don't i think performance is is well i think you mentioned time i think time is such a good indicator of of the artistry behind it because it stands the test of time and it you know a viral tweet you know might be popular for a day and a week later we look back and go oh you know those tweets that say oh this this aged poorly or this aged well right and and that can really be a way to gauge just how like pure or sincere it was right because it won't it won't hold up over time if if it uh truly was performative i feel like if someone

is performing and then you can see yourself in that person and then you can see their story in that and it sticks with you and a seed has been planted and you uh and and you understand that that's what that was what was so great about so much of the 60s uh music is it just really it's lasted for a long time because you you know, over time it has aged well. You know, songs that spoke out against the Vietnam War aged pretty damn well. You know, at the time they were like a stick in the eye, you know, but you begin to think about, God, those poor 19-year-old dudes, and they just learned to drive a couple minutes ago, and they're running around the jungle with a rifle getting shot at.

Makes you think about someone else's perspective. You said earlier, and just kind of rifting about maybe nothing matters when you take the helicopter and you look back and you see that pile. And do you sometimes feel that way? I mean, I know I do sometimes. And interestingly enough, I find that to be a freeing thought in a sense, because, well, if, you know, whether it does or doesn't, what I do know is I'm here and I'm doing to make the most of it right and if it you know i was i was talking to a guy over the weekend who was going through a hard breakup and he was crushed and and i was talking to him and it was just like he was hurting and i'm like if it's one

thing i think about life these days is that my whole life has been about any feeling i felt right i look back and it's when I think about my memories, I think about whatever I felt in that moment. And even as I look back in my youth, the painful moments, I now look back and smile or anxiety. Yeah. And you right now, you're feeling a lot of pain, but i promise you that someday if you get through this and you will if you want to uh you will look back and you will smile in this moment because you're going to learn something and that's to me that's all that really matters like whatever we feel like you know and and um yeah it was just one of those things where so to embrace kind of how we

feel like regardless of why we're here or the meaning of life, just these feelings that we experienced through life. Because like when we, when we get old and we look back, some of those, those hardest moments we felt were the ones we will remember. And we will have felt a lot. And to me,

I think that's, that's, that's helped me get through things that were hard. And, and I don't know if it helped him at the time, but he was, he was really struggling. And don't know if it helped him at the time but he was he was really struggling and uh you know it will at some point those are kind of like it's like tossing a grenade it hits and goes clink a little later he's gonna have it's gonna have to lay on the floor for a little while after going clink because he's he's not he's

bumming yeah he's bumming right now but But, you know, I've always wondered. I always have seen it like these things happen in your life, and they were struggles. They didn't feel good. They were tough. And then you turn around one day, and it's like someone snuck into your files, took those files, and filed it under good times. It's like, how did you do that?

Like when did that happen? That like that horrible bout with pneumonia is now filed under good times. Yeah. But somehow you with perspective, I think is what you're saying. You, you, you, you, you come to to embrace that you lived and, and, and like you say, you can have too much. There's a funny line and spinal tap where one of the musicians is being really super deep and he's like, too much bloody perspective. Sometimes you can have too much where you do go out into the universe and you go, there's no pile. There's no human race.

There's no earth. There's nothing there. But you got to spend time and all those perspectives. And it's just like, I think that's kind of the theme. If we're to find a theme of the conversation, which is perspectives, putting yourself in various shoes, various positions above stuff. It's helpful just to even just realize everyone's going to die. I mean, sometimes when you see conversations, which are really not helpful, making life hard on everyone around, and you want to say, look look i know you hate that guy because he

doesn't like whatever it is that you're like but you know does it make you feel better he's gonna fucking die and you too like maybe just like go wow you know we're both facing tough stuff in life you know and amazing stuff why not just kind of chill out for a second? All you need to know is you're both going to die. Yeah. I don't know. Totally. Maybe that's the only thing that fits in the tweet. What if you found out tomorrow?

What if you both found out that you're going to die tomorrow or next week? Would it change how you see each other? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. You might be like, you know what? Let's not talk about this. Let's go enjoy a game or let's not talk about this. Let's

go enjoy a game or let's go listen to a song. And I don't really care about anything else because we have about 40 hours. Perspective. Yeah. You mentioned looking down at audience and knowing that you drew different kinds of people. I believe that that is also suffering in this era. I think for the last almost decade, I have watched mine and other audiences look increasingly like the person on stage, which is natural to a degree. think I don't think that it is a looking at a more politically and racially much less politically and racially diverse audience and some of that could be you know I have to look at myself maybe that's me maybe it's the things I'm saying or maybe it's the fact that people get older and they start being attracted just kind of go into the one little room with each other's natural for the career whatever I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't proclaim it's all universal, but I have seen it happening to other artists

and other shows too. And I think if you took a snapshot and took a survey of audiences and say 2003 or something, and then you did it now, you'd see a much more homogenous audience. And why would we be surprised at that, given the tone, the timbre of the childish discussions that we have? Yeah. And hopefully they can gain some perspective and become a little less childish. I mean, you do a lot. I mean, I've learned a lot from podcasting so far and having so many conversations. And do you feel like your constant conversations with other people have made you more open-minded or have they tugged at your inner, let's fight? No, 100% more the former.

I grew up in a very conservative household. I have 10 siblings. We were Catholic. And I tease my parents now, and I've mentioned this. I'm very grateful for their willingness to allow their kids to make them more open-minded. They started having kids in their early 20s, and so much of what they— And must have. Yeah, I was one of their oldest.

And so much of what I taught them, they were was one of their oldest and so like so much of what i taught them that you know they were still figuring out life yeah you know and um and yes i mean this this podcast i'm so grateful for for for that just because i like having different perspectives and talking to different people and i and i have grown so much uh in, in that space, but I do find myself in the same time wanting to challenge even the things I learn, right? Oh, that's wonderful. That's amazing. And when I, for me, sometimes I might be following certain things

on social media or watching certain documentaries or whatever and learning something. And I feel my perspective going one side, you know, left, let's's call it left or right and i don't mean in a political sense right and when i feel that i will naturally try to digest the alternative point of view just to try to even myself out right that's smart um just because i i want to still be able to ask those questions but podcasting has been such a gift in that sense, just because I mean, I feel like I've learned so much in the past two years than my,

my entire life. It's been really just kind of a college course and, and, um, and just whether it's, you know, our, our audience members have called in and asked questions and,

and I've learned about things of how i handle relationships with myself my own relationships or and and people i've met so it's really just been a gift and a blessing to um to have these conversations and kind of bringing it back home to our original point you know happy like it's that's why i encourage people to try to have these conversations as much as they can and and not just with people you agree with because I didn't always think the way I did you know it was people who were gracious enough with their time and empathetic to who I was or where I came from and all I all I brought the table was a willingness to learn and then they were gracious with the gift of just explaining to me and allowing sometimes some ignorant questions that I might have. Yeah, and God, how important is that?

Yeah, totally. It's such a gift to just allow someone's ignorant question. It's not evil. That's great. Totally, and so that's, you know, I've also, you know, my audience will know that, like, I talk about ignorance in a way that sometimes I feel like we've labeled ignorance in a very negative light because no one wants to be ignorant, right? But sometimes we confuse ignorance with things like racist or whatever. And there is a difference.

And if we can't recognize our ignorance, then I don't know how we can grow or change or see our shortcomings. And sometimes we'll be too resistant to even acknowledge our ignorance because we can't imagine being called ignorant or being labeled as such. And therefore there is no growth. And I think we need to ease off

the pointing of a finger of you're ignorant and that means you're evil. Like you said, and, or maybe you just haven't been educated. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to point your finger, someone say they're ignorant,

it, it is in your power at that point to educate them. Yeah. You know? So, so you can, you can call them names or you can say, why don't we just trade some information right now?

I want to know why you think that. And I'm going to tell you a couple of facts that you might not know. And now you're not ignorant anymore. High fives. And I think to put a more positive spin on where we are, look, in all the craziness, human nature and creativity has gotten us out. That's what's wonderful about talking to a primatologist who looks back tens and tens of thousands of years to see the evolution and how creativity has gotten us out. And just, I mean, I would say to point in some small way to the conversations you're having, you had an idea. I think I'll go in this direction. I'm going to have a podcast now. I'm going to have these discussions. I mean, all the problem solving you've done to get yourself where you are.

And it's resulting in conversations, despite all the static out there. And you and some other people are learning. And it's all because of your creative ideas. And, you know, it's easy. And I think one of the reasons I taught myself in circles, especially when someone, you know, brings up cancel culture, and I started to go, okay, well, let me see how I can, how I can nuance this. I talked for an hour about it. But really, at the end of the day, about it but really at at at the at the end of the day a long conversation and an idea about a platform to have it and all the human nature of that podcast these are all positive things yeah they're leaving somewhere absolutely ben this has been a ton of fun before i let you go are you down to play a quick game we like to play with our guests it's called do you know me i'm chris dude i don't play games okay all right well never mind no no

i'm fine with that yeah i just like to say that yeah i love when people say they don't play games i actually don't play games well let's go fuck myself all right it's called do you know me uh i would ask some questions does ben this has been ever done that etc etc don't answer right away chrissy and i will guess our audience will guess along with us and then answer the question uh if if you have a i think i understand the rules an anecdotal story you're welcome to share or a simple yes or no will suffice so do you know me with ben folds question number one does ben prefer cake or cookies does ben prefer cake or cookies well we don't even know if he likes sweets we don't know uh am i supposed to we'll see that's a binary choice again i'm gonna say cookies I feel like Ben doesn't like sweets all that much,

but if he does, I'm going to say cookies. If it's got sugar in it, I'll just, I'll just didn't need a box of sugar. Oh really? Okay. I was way off.

I'm just like, I can't, I can't, whatever, which is closest. I'll inhale either. It's awful. All right.

Question number two, Zerk cart behind him. I just think it's really cool that I put off the vibe that, I mean, I'm kind of proud of that, that I would look like somehow. I don't even know why I thought that. Super healthy. You know, yeah, I have a sweet tooth too. I feel like you're a smart person.

Everyone knows sugar's bad for you. And I don't know. Question number two. Has Ben ever been in a fist fight? Has Ben ever been in a fist fight has ben ever been in a fist fight and i'm not gonna answer that right i let's let uh no no i don't think he has i think he's thought his way out of i feel like i've never been in a fist fight and p i've i've my my girlfriend asked me it was almost a surprise, and I thought about that.

And I was just like, I guess in a traditional sense, having a fistfight when you're younger is a way of like a peacock or a way to prove yourself. And I've just always found other ways of doing that to express myself. And I'd never been in,

like if I had to, I've also never been in a situation where my safety or the safety of my loved ones around me required me to like throw up my duke so to speak and so like I would I feel like that was very convincing yeah you're you're you're you're you're duke position yeah I feel like I have a dangerous side but I just haven't it's never been been triggered so I haven't and I feel like Ben has been able to express himself in other ways,

and him too have never been put in a position where it required him to beat someone up. I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say there's some awesome, fun, touring, random, ridiculous story where they had to defend themselves. Well, the short answer is yes. In fact, one such case was the reason I did not finish. I lost my scholarship at University of Miami,

which was a full tuition music scholarship that I lost in the first semester. Getting in a fight, broke my hand, got stitches in my face, and went in the next day to take my, uh, my juries, which are, are the performance, uh, tests. That was because some goofball from another floor on our dorm came in with a fire extinguisher and was taunting my roommate. fire extinguisher and was taunting my roommate. And I grew up, you know, we just, you know, where in my childhood, we all seemed to love wrestling, loved wrestling. Wrestling led to like neighborhood boxing, where we would, we all had boxing gloves that we'd bought at a yard sale. Some old guy had sold a bunch of boxing gloves. Um, and I loved it. I loved watching boxing.

The thing you learn when you become big enough and old enough that it hurts is it hurts. You end up in the hospital. So I think for me, the whole thing was I took what was a game when I was a kid and was just like, like a game, like basketball or anything like that. It was fun. Boxing is absolutely incredible sport. It's great. Great workout too. Fascinating. It hurts. And within the, if you, any normal dude goes out for one round and you're, you can't pick your arms up anymore. Like it's exhausting. Anyway, yeah, I mean, I wasn't an angry person that got in fights all the time, but it did culminate in a really horrible

expulsion from school. And yet here we are. And it ends up being a good memory. You didn't need that scholarship. Thanks. Well, you know what? It is my lifetime of advocacy for the arts and work at the Kennedy Center and Americans for the Arts, along with that story, which is in my book, has oddly led to an honorary doctorate from the University of Miami. There you go. That's great. So kids, don't listen to anyone. Get in that fist fight. Someday they'll still give you a degree.

Yeah, I mean, what are we supposed to learn? Question number three. Does Ben like to cook? That's a trick question. Is that like a trick question? Does Ben like to microwave or to actually cook? Is Ben sitting with his hungry man dinner? or to actually he likes well it's been sitting with his hungry man

dinner I think liking to do something and being good at it or actually doing it so you like to cook but you're not very good

I'd say I am fascinated by it I haven't hasn't been part of my lifestyle and I'm not very good at it but the times I've been kind of locked in and for whatever reason I've had to, to be creative and to make a thing, such fun. So interesting. So interesting. Cooking is so creative.

And the creativity that goes into cooking is truly fascinating. Just the, that's where I struggle with. The chocolate is so good. Yeah. I like to cook and I could be more creative, but my eating habits are a bit rigid. And so that limits my creativity because I'm usually cooking for me. That's the thing with creativity, though. It's always limited, like we were saying, by reality. Yeah.

It always gets cut down. That's what makes art beautiful and really difficult what have i got well i've got sugar and well i guess i'm gonna have to make cookies yeah all right last question does ben have a go-to karaoke song another trick question that assumes i've ever done karaoke yeah i i feel like you would never i don't know like it's it would just you're it's who wants to that's like asking an accountant to do like someone's taxes on a night out i don't know like is it that is that how it is totally yeah um although well and and like you know the monitoring system is not good uh and the song's in the wrong key yeah you know uh the mix is a little fucked up

i had i did a karaoke once and it was the karaoke to end all karaoke's it was in tokyo in this cool little place like remote upstairs and some crazy little crazy little like hidden and i went with my kids and they were 15 at the time and they were on tour with me and there was one other dude there and he was this guy who's like you know he was a lawyer he was maybe about 60 years old he used to come in there all by himself apparently every night and just do karaoke and we came in and he and my son hit it off so well and they were doing all these karaoke songs and he loved um i can't remember what the musical artist he loved the most anyway they made me do one so i picked welcome to the jungle there we go that's

great uh ben this has been a ton of fun i feel like uh i could talk with you forever about all sorts of different things. So thank you for being so gracious with your time. Oh, no, thank you. And especially being across the world and waking up and chatting with us. Can you let the people know where they can follow you, all the projects you're working on? Obviously, you have your podcast, The Dream About Lightning Bugs.

You can listen to that wherever you listen to podcasts. Obviously, if you are listening to this podcast, you are so close to listening to Ben's. Just go. Just move sideways. Yeah, just move sideways and it's there. And anything else you want to share before we let you go? No, I've just been taking notes on how to conduct a podcast interview from a master. Oh, holy.

That was very nice. I think you're a great listener and, and, and it's yeah, it's, it's, it's good for me. The difference is, is when mine are over, I have to create a song out of the podcast using my guests material from that podcast. And that takes me a long time. So when you sign off of this and you just kind of go on to the next thing, weep for me, Because every time I do this, I've got like two weeks of work and mixing and performing all the instruments. Wow, I'm about to go have soup dumplings at Din Tai Fung. Make a song out of this.

It's so cool how you do that. If there's one skill I don't have that I wish I could have, it's being a musician. You can. You can do it. I know, but I'm not like you. And creatively, I have a hard time being creative with things I don't have confidence in. And that's a barrier I have. It takes a lifetime to learn the skills to do what we do.

Ben, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send in your questions at AskNickcastmedia.com cast with a k and if there's nothing else we will see you back on monday