The Viall Files - E299 The Bachelorette Recap With Wells Adams

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

Today we are recapping The Bachelorette with the one and only, Wells Adams. Nick and Wells’ experiences on this show, make the discussion about this incredibly dramatic episode ridiculously insightful from an insider perspective only they can serve up. Hometowns, family heroes, the Greg breakup, Katie’s reactions, predictions, and heartbreak, the guys cover it all. Nick also tries to press Wells for some inside information on Paradise, but the one thing we heard is that we should not make our personal picks for the next Bachelor until we are done watching Paradise. Thank You Wells.  “…so now she self identifies as The Bachelorette….” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  For merch please visit www.viallfiles.com today!   THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Huzzah:  http://www.drinkhuzzah.com  use code VIALL for 20% off.  Natural Habits: http://www.nhoils.com use code LOVE for 30% off and free shipping.    Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @wellsadams See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files I'm your host Nick and we have a very fantastic and special episode for you because, wow, what an episode. Lots to talk about, lots to break down, and we have the perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect guest to help us do that. Wells Adams is with us, and he has a lot to say. I'm really proud of you. I'm really proud of you because the more that you've done these podcasts the more

you're turning into wacky radio what's up everybody not at 2.9 the new sound of rebel radio it's nick vile and the vile files coming at you live don't forget to tip your waitress i have you to thank it happened you can't help it because once you once you like live in having cans on headphones on you then you start to realize how annoying your voice is and what it should sound like and then all of a sudden it kind of bleeds into this like you know this like cliche radio guy and i just loved hearing that intro it was beautiful my i definitely have developed of course a podcast voice for for sure it's a little lower and a little raspier yeah a little more more tension on the vocal chords yeah yeah i just let it rattle a little bit yeah i remember when i first got into radio

my my family would listen in to like my shows in college and then like out of college and they'd be like but that's not what you sound like and i'm like yeah i know i because i don't i think my voice is horrible and i think that i should sound like a certain way i i honestly think i it just naturally evolved it wasn't like i said i'm going to change it is that the same with you no no no i listened to it and i was like uh this is not what like ryan seacrest like. I really should work on that. Well, we have a great episode. Before we dive in and unpack this episode, a couple of housekeeping notes.

Episode 299 today. So congratulations. Thanks to everyone for listening to 298. It means a lot. We have episode 300 tomorrow with the wonderful Missy Pyle discussing and breaking down the show Sex Life on Netflix and really just talking about infidelity, marriage, and

all the wild and wacky things that come with being in relationships and fantasizing about, you know, 12-inch dongs. That may or may not be prosthetic. That may or or may not and we find out maybe if it is kind of either way um wait before we start can i ask some questions do you have a new tattoo uh i have a few yeah what i never knew you to be a tattoo

dude well i'm not really haven't really discussed him at all it's all right it's all right something i it's just something i've been planning on doing for a long time and uh they're just uh one for each family member oh i love that yeah all right cut that sorry guys do you like jeff i didn't see that one. That's the dog? Oh, man. You are in it, man. You're so deep in. I'm so in.

I've already mourned his potential death. Yeah, no, I was listening to the Ben and Jess engagement thing, and you were talking about that, and I was like, oh, man, he's in it. Yeah, I just like, I mean, anything can happen, and hopefully I'm around for a while, but I'm just like i'm gonna have to deal with losing him someday well yeah well here's the thing like my dog carl he has uh idiopathic epilepsy which is a very fancy way of saying i don't know what the is wrong with him but he has epilepsy and uh oh that's what the doctors say or the vets say and he is the most expensive thing in the world

and when i go and they're like he needs mitigation i'm like here's all my here's my bank account the last four of my social my mother's maiden name take it go fix it whatever you gotta do no i uh i've i've been a critic of of like certain dog owners and they're willing like i'm just like i love you you have a dog it's great but like not not your kid you know and i have so much empathy for those people now welcome to the party i was like i was so wrong the whole time uh it's uh yeah all right here we go sorry lots are you sorry for nothing i took you off on a tangent there that's okay we we'll get back into it yeah all right well let's just you know take about 10-15 minutes just to go through the whole episode leading up to the breakup because then there's a lot to discuss

about the breakup we have hometowns it opens up with uh blake's you know again props to props to the show in the art department right it's a great they do a great job i mean it's i was just kind of like you know what fuck it let's just get to the families but they man they brought out a mechanical moose where do you find a mechanical moose yeah well it's mechanical bull. Yeah, I think it's just a paper mache moose. Was that what it looked like? It looked like a moose. Either way, I was like, wow. They got Bullwinkle's head and they just slapped it on a mechanical moose.

My favorite part of that was like, yeah, in Canada, we don't have horses. And I'm sitting there being like, wait a second. I'm pretty sure like the Canadian Mounties. Yes. They're not on mooses. They're not on moose. They're not on moose. Moose? Is it moose?

Is the moose plural? Yeah, moose. Meese. Meese? No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. You're right. Yes.

Also like, Blake's a freak, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wait, does she know that like? No. And we say this lovingly, but like. Little weirdo. Blake has a freak flag, I think.

And he's just trying to just... I think he... I constantly see him being like, all right, I'm on ABC Disney. It's like, I can't really talk about it. But like, I'm into some weird shit. Like what? You think like foot guy or like...

I don't know what it is. Yeah, okay. But I think he has a variety of... Oh, total foot guy. think like foot guy or like i don't know what it is okay but i think he has a variety of foot guy definitely his pottery had to be blacked out and then his painting had to be blacked out like he likes to push and he's like i got syrup in the bedroom yeah he just wants you to know that he is i think he's just kind of down for anything. I think he's a very sexual man. Yeah. But syrup in the bedroom. I mean. He sold it.

I was like, dude. No. I almost believed him. That's like a yeast infection waiting to happen. Yeah. I mean, it's not a natural lubricant. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think he's such a freak that you almost have to hit the pause button. Not because it's just like, hey, Blake,ake that's i think doesn't it make sense he's

got a room no no i think he someday will have a room soon the room's coming my god if they put syrup in the fantasy have you ever seen the movie burn after reading yeah yeah it's a great movie by the way where george clooney character makes like this weird sex swing. Like I could picture Blake having a home project where like most guys like turn in their basement into a microbrewery or something. And Blake turns it into like arts and crafts sex toys and mechanical like sex swings with... Yeah, I could see that.

Yeah, maybe the fantasy suite will be like Fifty Shades. Like he's going to pull out a key and be like, I have a hobby and you should know about it. And then they open it up and it's just. Yeah, but I don't feel like it would. You know how Fifty Shades is like he's very. The character, correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't. Oh, I got you. But the character is very, he is highly tuned and well-versed in all this stuff.

And I feel like Blake is just like, I'm down for anything. Christian Grey is like having her sign like an NDA and all this stuff before she even sees the room. Like he has his contract down. He's like, here's your room. This is the key to this room. Blake is just like, cool. It's a dark alleyway. I feel like he's a rookie.

Yeah, he's still in exhibition mode. He's like, how can I use the NDA in a sexual way? Maybe a paper cut would be fun. He's like, two more guys left? Great, let's bring them on. Good stuff. But anyway, props to bring him on. Good stuff. But anyway, props to the art department. They have a nice little day.

Blake's mom finally gets to be on TV. I feel like she's been waiting for this moment for a while. There's like TV moms, and then there's like reluctant parents, like clearly Justin. That's his name got it wait no but hold on the mom yes great but the sister was chef's kiss the old like uh so uh this is the one now okay great yeah well done blake sister for you know speaking for bachelor nation and and she did a great job because she she sounded uh like aware but not like

mean like sometimes siblings will do that we're like i'm supposed to be the tough one and then they like overplay their hand a little bit and we're like well you just sound mean and i felt like blake's sister did a really good job of all right i'm gonna i'm not gonna be my mom and be all smiley and waiting for my moment but i'm gonna i'm gonna question you and i like that she questioned blake and not katie yeah i think that's fair katie's not really on trial here but the dude has been with now three different bachelorettes albeit two seasons do you think that this guy just has a thing for dating bachelorettes or do you think he's like fully pot committed on katie blake yeah i mean it's again i think it will get into the episode i think the world is intense that atmosphere is if you allow yourself if you go into that world and say

fuck it i'm to go for it. I like this person and I'm going to lean into whatever feelings I have. Then I think you can really get yourself caught up in the moment. Yeah. I think Blake does that with every person. His mom mentioned he loves hard, right? He falls fast. So I don't think it's disingenuous at all.

And I don't think it's disingenuous at all and i don't think it's specific to bachelorettes i think he's just a guy who leans on his feelings and and and thinks of himself as a romantic guy and i think in that world it can really turn into this i think he's also good at uh compartmentalizing the process and like you see that when he talks to Greg. He's like, well, I'm just talking about, I'm going to go work out. And so it's easier for him to go through the situation than others. And it's such a fascinating discussion for your longtime Bachelor Nation fans is what is authentic?

You know, we always talk about right reasons we talk about is this person real are they here for tv etc etc etc and blake while being you know doing it all doing it perfectly is this like i've been here before so So like, just respect the beats. Hey, I can't get mad. You know, is that authentic where Blake is remarkably chill, given that he's having a conversation with someone who clearly is falling in love with the person he's falling in love with? And which one is more authentic? You know, it's and bachelor nation weirdly seems to align with the person who tends to play by the rules of the show yeah and it's this kind of i don't know it's fascinating well speaking of the rules of the show the one like takeaway that i got from this past episode and i kept on saying it was like has has greg never seen the show before? Did you not do a little bit of research about the show of which you were going on? Because it seems like he doesn't understand the very simple beats of how this show works.

We'll get into it down the line, but I want to preview that one theme. Because it's something that kind of bothered me as i watched there is that but i no one knows what they sign up for in the sense of they don't know how they're going to feel yeah and greg's never greg and again we will get into it later but at a certain point you want to make you want to validate what feels like real feelings. And you want to say, I don't care about, I don't care what I signed up for. Yeah.

And I think that's the discussion. Yeah. But, you know, I don't, yeah. I think a lot of Bachelor Nation fans will, there will be some, you knew what you signed up for reactions to, to Greg for sure. Yeah.

So anyways, Blake has his hometowns. Nothing, Danny, anything to really unpack it. Nice. They seem in love. I feel like Brendan was always the Canada man on the season.

You know, he was the one with the hair who like had no business really being there. He was Blake fluffer for canada yeah i wonder if he was doing that just like with his arm crossed like damn it that could have been me sarah calls him cockatoo head uh yeah a little yeah a little bouffant that's going on up there did did you know about the um the behind the scenes of the brendan and the blake of it all uh that apparently they're like best friends yeah so when i in life so when i was there doing the show i did like the date that you guys saw on tv but then they set up like this whole other thing that i was like i know you guys are going to cut this you're just doing this to be nice but they set up a bar and i gave everyone advice all of paradise and the big dialogue

was that brendan cockatoo head was angry that blake showed up because blake was the one who convinced him to go and then he oh yeah and so he was all bent out of shape about it and and it was like why did you tell me to come if you're gonna come like i don't want to go against my boy but they like squash it kind of like day of and i and i remember i was like you should be annoyed by this weird me out too man yeah yeah that that would have been some good tv i know they got chopped man that's why i feel like you didn't get a lot of bread multitask hard to do but when people make it easy for you you might as well take advantage and that's where huzzah comes in and that's right a refreshing probiotic seltzer with benefits. So it's a refreshing things

are heating up at summertime. You want to stay hydrated and you can do that while having delicious drinks and taking care of your gut health and gut health has so many graded benefits like added immune system. It's good for your skin. It helps with your digestive system. Overall, like people say your gut is like your second brain. And so making sure that you're taking care of it is important. And Huzzah helps you do that all while like just having tasty, delicious drinks. So many drinks out there are full of sugar and they're just bad for you. So now drink something that's delicious and good for you. All of their drinks are three grams of sugar or less.

Again, they have probiotics in them. Raspberry lemon is my favorite flavor. They also have delicious flavors like strawberry hibiscus, juicy pear. So get your Huzzah now. Get your cooler ready and stock up on Huzzah probiotic seltzer by using code V-I-A-L-L for 20% off your order at drinkhuzzah.com. That's code V-I-A-L-L for 20% off at drinkhuzzah.com. H-U-Z-Z-A-H.com. I've been using natural habits in my diffuser. Yeah? Yeah.

I do too. I love it. I love, I've been putting it there. I didn't even realize there's a little pocket where I can, or it's my humidifier is what it is. And I've been dropping it in and it's awesome. I've been telling people, Chrissy obviously talks about her headaches.

What? You know what I was wondering yesterday as I was looking? If you have a thing you can put it for car events. Yeah, you can buy a little car. You can get them on Amazon and put a couple drops of essential oil on it, and it will set your indoor car. You just stick it on your car vent vent and it will, great safe way. Again, better than those plugins

and things like that or car freshers. Yeah, because I was looking for that yesterday at the store and then I found a natural one. And then I was like, I wonder if Nick, if there's like a way to do it where you can just- Yeah, you can buy them on Amazon. We don't sell them, but you just put your essential oils on them.

Most importantly, they have some health benefits. Again, like fighting headaches, our center blend is great for that. You know, if you're, you know, it's really hard on your, it's hard on your gut and your heart and your body just to take ibuprofen all the time you get a headache. And sometimes that might be needed. But if you can avoid popping ibuprofen at Advil by just simply rubbing an essential oil on your body or breathing it in. It can really go a long way.

Natural Habits Essential Oils, nhoils.com. Code LOVE, L-O-V-E, for 30% off. It's free shipping. We sell the bundle with all our blends. You can get it in diffuser form or a roll-on, which is diluted with a whole oil, so it's easy to put right on your skin and you can carry it around with you anytime you get a headache. You just rub it right on the old temple. nhoils. code l-o-v-e for 30 off you won't regret it

uh you're welcome blake's getting and has gotten a remarkable edit and we're starting to find out why yes um yeah ever like the first couple episodes of tasha being like he's the greatest okay i'm not saying he's not but like yeah seems like a sweet guy yeah you also had the start of greg's breakdown on this date right because he was watching blake yeah so i want to know because i have i never got as far as you got on any of the shows. But do you think that they were like, we need Greg to see this, so we're going to have him come back from the gym at this one time so he sees it?

Or do you think it was an accident? Could be either. Yeah. I wonder if it was planned out for him to see it. So he, cause, cause I think the problem that we've got with Greg is that Greg is like, you know,

he's the, he's a human Labrador. Like he's just kind of there all the time. And it was like, we need some emotion from this kid. And so I wonder if it was a little bit of like, if he sees that, maybe we'll get some emotion.

And then afterwards they were like, man, I wish we hadn't done that. Cause I'm been spiraled out of control when uh on caitlin season i remember it was it was down to the final three and we were all staying on a golf resort in ireland yeah and so i had my fantasy suite and and then i had a day of like b-roll which is essentially you walk around and get some like shots of you sitting staring off and wondering and pining for the love of your life kind of thing yeah and while i was doing it a couple hundred yards away and they looked like little ants i saw caitlin and sean on their golf date and i felt like they were setting me up to

look like i was spying on their date and i got all mad at them and they're like hey and granted they were really fucking far away but i was like i don't know how good these cameras are you know like and it remains to be seen whether it never made air and so to their credit like maybe it was just a total coincidence and we are just on a golf resort um they're like here's some binoculars do some bird watching um and so who knows but yeah it i don't know if it was a setup or and you were there at this compound it was they don't have much room to work with yeah so greg's literally has to sit in a room all day um i'm sure he got some patio time in there to get some fresh air and yeah and saw

it but it wouldn't shock me if they also they could have had that shot without that actually what i was gonna say at first it was like is he even really looking at the date they never showed a two shot of them and the footage we saw greg staring off that way the whole time and so i think that greg saw them walking by at once so they had the confessional of him saying i saw them on their date and then they just used different footage of him staring off into the distance anxiously that's i think you're i think you're right yeah and it was like, I fucking saw them. And they were like, oh shit, you weren't supposed to see that.

And then, so they used it and got some B-roll of him looking over the patio, which good for them because that still, I like that if that is the case because that is the authentic story of like, well, we have to shoot you doing this so it gives some perspective and makes it more real but yeah i don't think it happened with him on the patio i think he was

coming back from the gym that's my theory on it all so yeah but i wonder if was that the straw that broke the camel's back for him because it seemed like everything really kind of spiral no you don't okay well i mean this whole time you know a lot of our we're all spoiler free here but we had katie on and she said a lot of things on the interview with me what we've been like she mentioned there's a bigger villain than thomas and we're like oh wow she mentioned she had her heart broken like legit heartbroken so we're just like well when is this gonna happen yeah and now that we're down to three like i don't think justin's going to be breaking her heart and i don't see break that's his name yeah i don't see blake breaking her heart so like when is greg leaving was kind of like i've been we've been waiting for this right and up into the point

where greg leaves i'm just like maybe that maybe this is all just a great con and she's going to end up picking greg because other than that like yeah they set it up or they show greg having a a crack in the armor so to speak but then the rest of the episode his hometowns was i was like this is great going for it this is greg pouring his heart out and so yeah i don't i i think i think that's a hindsight. Or is it a storyline justification for him? Well, that's what I'm saying. I think they don't even air that moment if Greg doesn't leave.

Yeah. Right? But I don't think that was the catalyst for causing him to leave. It might have been the catalyst of having these doubts these doubts and of things like that but let's just let's just let's let's just get through justin's date so we can really dive into this because we're dying obviously to talk about it justin we love him he's great i feel for him uh in terms of i don't doubt that he has had you know there's these running jokes of who the fuck is Justin, obviously. He's now at a final three. Look, now that we know, he's final two. He is final two.

Do you think that he has a little bit of imposter syndrome? He's like, I don't even know if they know I'm still here. Do they think I work here? I feel for Justin because he's clearly had more time with Katie than we have been shown. They decided they had Michael's storyline they wanted to give a ton of airtime to. I think Andrew S.'s storyline because, you know, maybe some bachelor consideration for Andrew. So they got to give him, you know, more airtime.

And I think you got the Greg thing now. so they got to give him more air time. And I think you got the Greg thing now. And Justin is just a casualty of we have a great season. And Justin, while his facial expressions are great, he doesn't emote a lot. He's nice. He's unproblematic. And all these things are great for a great guy in life.

But in terms of airtime he's he's been kind of he's on the losing end of of justifying his relationship i feel bad for him if i'm being perfectly honest with the whole like his parents won't come like that's such a kod for his journey there like it's so important to meet the family and you know get that validation from the family um and it was you know like that phone call that he had with his mom you can tell like how angry he is and it's just yeah and it's just like a kid waiting to get picked up from school yeah exactly that kind of like like abandonment in that sense or like no disrespect because i get his parents are like i don't want to go on a show but for sure also there's there's a

there is the covet element maybe it's just like all things being equal if you guys wanted to show up here great but like no i can't take a week off of work and quarantine for four or five days and then i'm not yeah but you could zoom it like they did zoom it yeah um but I feel like if if like if I was adjusting shoes I don't think my family would go well this is an interesting conversation because when I went on the show I straight up told my family and was like this is probably not going to happen but there's a possibility that like you'll have to be on tv are you guys okay with that and then and I even like went out to exes and I was like I'm gonna do this and like our stories are gonna be told like are you guys cool with that

and so I won I mean obviously he didn't do that or if he did he was like well I probably won't get that far so it won't even matter did you have that conversation with your family because your family's gigantic it's the same thing you know I remember right before going on we got together at my sister's house and it was just a lot of like excitement of like, I can't believe you're doing this. Yeah. And then there was a lot of like, what if we got a hometown? And it was mostly around, wouldn't that be crazy? Because it probably won't happen.

Like just the odds, it won't. But I think my parents were just more deer in headlights like you know we'll support you like uh and i think they had a lot of anxiety i definitely didn't get a we're not gonna do it yeah um but yeah i mean i don't fault justin's parents at all like it's it's it's a lot to ask and it the show is ridiculous and that's okay if you know you're a little bit more cynical about uh this crazy process i don't you know what i maybe you want your privacy what i'm bummed about was okay so the vibe that i got was they didn't want to come because they don't support like this show and this journey and everything which is fine but now i'm upset because i want to see like

justin's parents be like this isn isn't real. I'm like, this is, you know, getting angry. Like, I feel like we were robbed of that. Yeah. And so I'm upset because I would have loved that hometown.

Cause all these other hometowns, like the moms were great. Like the, you know, so, but it, you can't not respect his parents for just another reason for getting cut out of the show.

You know? Yeah. They just didn't, they didn't want it. And his friends seem very nice, some nice conversations. It just, listen, unfortunately for Justin, they didn't do him the service of validating that relationship. So that whole day, it was just kind of like, eh.

Right, and then he said, I love you. And Katie was like, I'm proud of you. And I was like, oof, okay, that sums it up. And I'm sure Justin had real, thanks for saying that because as someone who's had that, like I'm falling for you, I love you speech, Justin's felt a little flat.

It didn't feel like, I remember saying it a couple times and I felt like Greg. I felt vulnerable. I felt like I was scared. I was like, this is crazy, but it was real And Justin was just like so like I gotta say it, huh? Why does it always happen right after the hometown before you get in the car?

It's like I feel like it's always right then because your family or your boys give you a pep talk about it So you feel obligated to do it. I know, but it's just a weird place to do it. Like, I'm opening a car door, but by the way, I love you, bye! And then throwing them out. Historically, it's hometowns you're falling in love, fantasy suites you're in love, or somewhere between fantasy suites and the final date.

Yeah. And a lot of that is because, you know, if you go to a producer and be like, I want to tell them, they'll be like, or you could wait. Yeah. Or you could wait. Do you think that the directive for Blake was to wait a bit?

Because he wanted to say, I love you or I'm falling in love with you and then throw her in the car. But he didn't. I mean, Blake is definitely a good little soldier. Yeah. Yeah, I think. Well, it's weird because Blake's in his hometown. He's just like you know i haven't said it yet and i'm still processing it but like i'm definitely gonna propose yeah so it's like

so you're not in love but you're definitely gonna propose so like he's just he's trying to sound um i've already put the down payment on the sex swing all right it's gonna happen guys yeah yeah so yeah blake blake is and i he's pot committed and i i respect like when blake showed up he was just like if she likes me i'm gonna get engaged to her he had blake decided he was gonna get engaged to katie before he showed up yeah yeah absolutely and i don't fault him at all like again it's a crazy world you kind of have to decide you have to decide to allow yourself to embrace the crazy world at the risk that you might look crazy a la greg yeah for sure before we get into the greg one last question about either of the other two guys, Justin or Blake. Do you think either of them have a shot?

Let's say they don't get engaged at the end of this thing of becoming the next bachelor. No. Okay. I don't. I think it's Michael, Andrew or Greg. Yeah.

Or someone from paradise coming to ABC, 8, 7 Central. You tell us. August 16th. You tell us. What if anyone comes from Paradise? Well, that's a great question. Do you think, without naming any specific names, that someone from Paradise this season has a chance of being the next Bachelor?

I think that everyone should wait for Paradise to air before we anoint anyone the next Bachelor. I mean, you remember how important it happened for you, right? I think that there is one particular person that everyone is going to want to be the Bachelor. And whether or not they are even available to be the Bachelor at the end of it so bachelor bachelor in paradise has a bachelor candidate i think so there's a big star in paradise this year um not this was the natalie noticed something on justin's date yeah that i i was like that's a really i didn't pick up on that but katie's talking to justin's friend and justin's friend says tell me about yourself and katie responds and says

well they asked me to date 30 guys so i said sure why not and i that was, it was a really weird response to someone saying, Hey, just tell me, tell me about you. And Katie gave a very, what scripted didn't, that had nothing to do with herself. And I only point that out as we get into this date of that.

Why didn't she give any kind of sincere answer about like well you know i'm from so and so i like you know pairs i don't know whatever yeah so now she self-identifies as a bachelorette it's just all about like it's her bachelorette story but she didn't give i don't feel like any sincere answers or responses at um the men tell all either all these guys were opening up and telling them what they've learned. And she was like, thank you so much. It's tough though, because like,

as I was watching this, I'm I've always, and will always be very protective and defensive of the leads because what they're asked to do is so incredibly hard. And it's so easy to criticize when they, they do have, they, since in my experience, they want to simultaneously fall in love all while they have a job to do. They do. They have a job to do, and that's

really hard to do. And so with the tell-all, what are you supposed to say to a bunch of people like pouring their heart out? you're right she came across as a little insincere and cold but when it comes to tell all it's it's tough yeah i just feel like maybe it's becoming more of a theme as the season goes on she's becoming a little more yes surface i am the bachelorette this is my title i totally agree yeah no she is i so i i was excited to come on your show just because i hadn't seen you actually in a little bit. I missed your face. But I was also excited to come on your show specifically for this episode because you have a very different viewpoint than anybody else really in the world of this situation.

Because you have been on The Bachelorette as a contestant that's gone very very far to hometowns and then you've also been the lead and had to carry the weight of the show and worrying about ratings and all that kind of stuff and making sure that like things don't like completely fuck up so you have to like end early a la colton or something like that yeah so i i imagine that because with the greg of it all i think it's very, very nuanced. I think there's a lot of things that probably aren't heard or said that could change people's perceptions either way. I totally agree. Yeah. Well, let's break it down.

Okay. But I'm so excited to hear your perspective because this is... I really tried to watch this as objective, like without a team, without... And I think Katie has overall been an excellent bachelorette i like katie i like greg you know and so now we're in the situation you feel like you know especially the show the show wants you to take a side that's that that's what makes it compelling is to take a side i tried to watch this through different lenses and and then i tried to like be critical of one while having one person's side and then switch that and to to because you're right it's absolutely very

nuanced so day greg's hometown starts you see his family and like it's clear that greg is well it's what's shown he's very a close with his family um he hit it and then then and then the his father the loss of his father is brought up again and we're kind of we're reminded of that like i'm not saying we forgot about that but clearly it was part of his early storyline he connected with katie and bonded with katie over that thankfully i don't know what it's like to lose a parent um or are thankfully i haven't really experienced any significant loss when it comes to to death um in terms of like where it was unexpected and i had to process and things like that but i can only guess that that would be a trauma you know trauma bonding we've heard of And so you can, you see that in a world designed to find any type of connection and then magnify that connection.

So you see this bond with, with Greg's family, you know, there's all, all these talks. It's, I even made a joke, right. On, on, I tweeted something I mentioned on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. And I said, said what if what if Greg is Thomas just better at it you know he's just I mentioned before I personally don't see the connection between Greg and Katie and then I was thinking about that this episode okay maybe I don't see it in the real world but thinking about the world like greg is clearly into katie like if this idea that he went to acting school and a lot of people are talking about that okay like find his acting coach because if this is all an act it's it's oscar worthy yeah it was

really good like i i'm not even mad. I'm just impressed. Like Bravo, truly magnificent performance. Also like just to let's just knock this out right now. This idea that like, whether, whether your team, Greg or team Katie here, if you are going to pick a side, if your team katie i don't see any objective world where you can criticize greg based off the idea this was all some sort of strategic plot coupled with the fact that he went to acting school and he's been planning this from the get to somehow get a bachelor edit that to me would be silly and insane think of yeah but you tweeted that out yeah i know i was fucking around and like yeah i was gassing up katie you know like whatever you know like i was you know and also i didn't have the benefit of seeing this episode either you know because up into this point we've seen a lot of like aloof greg just like whatever

i got hair i'm good looking katie likes me uh i don't know what i'm doing here but like we this episode again like either he's a meryl streep or or whatever actor you want to say, or he has real feelings for Katie. And those real feelings might be rooted in toxicity based off the environment or some trauma he experienced, but those emotions seemed incredibly real. Because think about it, for it to be a plan, that means Greg's game plan was to go on The Bachelorette, have Katie fall in love with him, and then right at the end flip the switch on Katie and accuse her of being insincere

and too worried about her Bachelorette role rather than in relationships. That would take some incredible moxie and execution to pull that off i mean you know what i'm saying it just would be an insane thing to pull that off well it's an almost an impossibility because you can't expect someone not to say i love you back yes that's a that's a huge gamble to make yeah thank you yeah which katie never did you know and yes greg was pouring his heart out greg's whole if if greg had a plan is your to your point his whole plan was based off the idea that katie would come across as cold uh when greg's pouring his heart out to katie talking about his dad and how you're the one and you're it and I'm scared. His whole plan was based off the idea that Katie would stare at him with a glazed look at his face.

And then when Greg asked, like, what are you thinking? Kind of asking for a response to what he just said, like any kind of validation or something, a handhold. She just goes, I just love looking at you yeah uh sarah said something pretty interesting about to go back to like kind of your the beginning point of like meeting the family that i thought was interesting and it could be completely wrong and it kind of hit home to me because i'm the youngest and so i thought it was a little bit of a jab at me but she was like it looks like he's just the youngest that he's gotten everything he's ever wanted um in his family and i wonder if he's like acting out because he's he's not getting the thing that

he wants now and i don't even know if he is the youngest but it looked like he was he looks like the favorite well he's amer was America's favorite up until... But even to your point of the family, like his mom loves him. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Again, Greg...

When I watched, I think Greg's weakest moments was he came close to like maybe being mean. He was certainly cold at the end. It wasn't your traditional goodbye, which is, is you know especially on the bachelorette where you know the the guys are like just be the gentleman just be you know um Mike you know a la Michael Michael to the max right uh I love you all right whatever I don't I don't know. But Greg was mad. Greg was hurt. Greg was angry.

Now we can debate whether it was justified. But yes, it was very unconventional relative to what we're used to seeing on The Bachelorette when a guy is leaving on his own. Yeah, I think it's a tale of two Gregs, though. tale of two gregs though and i think that what the audience is going to be upset with isn't the first conversation that they have after the hometown and in the dark and at the car it's the execution the second day when he goes and you know breaks up with her and it does seem and here's the problem and i was talking on another podcast about this. Here's the problem that we as the audience have is that we don't have the luxury of experiencing

what was said and done in real time. So much of what happens is left on the cutting room floor, a la every time I go on the show, I'm completely chopped out of it which is fine but i wonder because that that that breakup scene seems so abrupt and it's so fast that it's like what that was weird it was probably an hour long it was probably really really long it probably went on forever it was probably obviously it's probably boring for the camera guys i felt bad for them but. But like, so we don't have, you know, the advantage of knowing all that was said.

It was just like, well, the story was, the bullet points were that like he came over. They got upset. He walked out. She chased after him. He left. Well, let's break down the bullet points because it was a drastic turn leading up to like Greg talked to his family. Again, I'm just like, where does Katie get her heart broken when she claimed she gets her

heart broken so when does this happen and it's not blake it's not justin so when is greg leaving kind of is was my yeah my and i was like maybe he's not maybe you know because greg is pouring his heart out it was such a 180. and again greg greg's brothers is like i haven't talked to my brother about the death of his father i don't know what that's like i haven't talked to my brother about the death of his father i don't know what that's like i can only try to empathize what that is and so what i heard from greg is this is real to me i'm terrified i love you i i need some validation and again going back to like katie gave him a very surface level answer to to justin's friend in terms of getting to know him uh greg is at his most vulnerable maybe in

years maybe forever and maybe maybe greg has some growing up to do emotionally and maybe it is because i don't know like i'm not saying greg in any way is perfect with his response. And, and, and Greg and Blake might be Blake, you know, compared to Blake, right? Blake is this guy who's like, yeah, this fucking sucks.

It's not ideal, but like, Hey, Katie's in a tough spot. He's very empathetic to Katie. He's can, he's in control of his emotions. Maybe it's because of his confidence.

I don't know what's causing it. It's also old hat for him. He's done this before, but all I'm saying is right or wrong his greg's what seems to be his authentic response is one of extraordinary vulnerability right and in an environment that strips down all your guards and just makes you so vulnerable a guy who's recently i don't know when he lost his father It seems like he has yet to unpack some of these emotions. And so he sits down with Katie and just says, fuck it.

I'm terrified. You're it. I love you, whatever. And Katie's response is surface level. And again, I wouldn't have reacted that way. You know what I'm saying? I wouldn't have reacted that way. But you know what I'm saying? I wouldn't have done what Greg did. But I'm just trying to empathize and put myself in Greg's shoes to understand like what his logic was.

And then Katie, once again, for like the fourth time this season is just like, you don't seem happy. And I'm just like, he just talked about his father and he's crying. I'm just like, what? Well, fuck. Like she, she's talked about his father and he's crying. And I'm just like, what? Well, fuck. Like she, she's, yeah, it didn't add up. I didn't understand Katie's response like at all. And while I wouldn't have handled myself like Greg, I can get why he's just like, I can't fucking do it. Like, I felt like Greg was just like, I can't. I'm so fragile right now and so vulnerable that I can't get done on one knee and propose and not know it's me.

And I know he signed up for the Bachelorette, but I'm just saying that's to me how it flipped. And I understand why. Yeah, going back to my original point of what annoyed me about greg was that like he didn't understand how the show worked and i actually kind of like i blame ben higgins for this because he all of a sudden changed the script on everyone and like was just telling people willy-nilly that he loves them and like that just screws up everything because then we don't have the normal beats of the show um and then it gives it it makes it so you can end the show early and that's happened most recently and so i liked liked Katie's rule of like,

hey, listen, guys, I'm just not going to tell you that I love you back. Like, you just need to know that. Now, I don't know if she told everyone that. I assume she did, or I assume production told Greg, hey, just so you know, she has this rule because it's out of respect for everybody else. No, production's not going to say that.

Well, when Greg's saying I'm i'm gonna fucking leave you best believe megan firestone walked in there and said just so you know don't leave there's this i you know and you know producers they they're their hands they're the puppet masters i get all that but they also just let things play out when things are playing out. You know, Katie told everyone we've heard for the past couple of weeks. Katie's is like, I'm not. She's told Blake's mom. She's she's telling the guys she doesn't need the producers to speak for her. She's speaking for herself.

But that's what I'm saying is that like he should know that the norm of the show is that like you don't get that response. He has this huge blow up and I understand that he's pouring his heart out to her about like this, like very, very painful experience and this hole he has in his heart and that she feels it but he has to know like he has to understand that she can't say it back to him because she's made this rule totally but also greg said i i get there's other guys here so let me like just around the room do you feel like yes or no and i'll ask the room did kate whether the rules the show or not or whether greg should have known

do you feel like katie gave a surfle surface level response to greg in that moment yes or no? I think collectively, Katie gave a lot of positive affirmation to Greg, more so than anybody else thus far on the show. And he, if for all of his faults in all of this, he should have given her a little bit more grace in the whole situation. Okay. I think it's hard to assess because we don't know their language i think we got an insight into their language of like the way that she was reassuring him it was so evident that she's done that on every group date they've been on of like this like hang in there i know it will be worth it in the end that feels like language that they have developed as an affirmation and so i think it's unfair in that moment did i I really want her to say, I love you to Greg? Of course.

But I think she could have potentially based on what their shared communication, like she could have said something that would have been the maximum she was allowed to do in her position. And he could have not allowed it. You're right about that. I mean, I don't know if it was their language, but it's often a language the lead will use.

I said this to Vanessa all the time. Just trust me. I would look at her and then like i try to like with my eyes be like you know like you know so i get that uh what about you ellie it just like seemed it seemed or at least it presented itself to me as less like i'm in love with you if you leave i'll destroyed. It read to me as like, well, shit, I was planning on picking you. So if you leave, like this throws off my entire plan

and like my entire journey. And like, I just can't handle that right now. So you just need to stay here because it's going to be you. And I just like, can't handle a change in plans. But isn't that saying what he wants to hear? No, not really. Cause it's like, it has nothing to do with- Katie's in like, it felt like Greg was just like,

I don't know what I signed up for, but I need this to be real. And it doesn't look real. It doesn't feel real to you. It feels like you're going to pick me. But you like that you're, you know, more into your... Hold on. I want to, Chrissy, hold on. I want to hear Chrissy's answer.

Well, I'm coming from a place of like, you keep saying like, you know, I haven't lost a parent. I have. I've lost my father. Right. So, and I'm only a year and a half into it and it's still like fucks my head up every day. Right.

So if I'm sitting down in someone, and we've talked about this with Jason Ritter before, you're sitting down with somebody and you're in this special club with them kind of like you have this like emotional attachment to them for someone to respond in that way when you're like I've been so vulnerable to you and you and I are supposed to have this shared experience so how can you not understand this place of vulnerability that I'm coming from and come at me with this like plain Jane face it's like extra gut wrenching because it's like the worst thing that'll happen to you. We share that.

I just like, and you're just like shutting down in front of me. How do you not understand what's going on? Yeah. I just couldn't imagine pouring my heart out if I were that vulnerable to your point, Chrissy and have, and having the person I was speaking to have a glazed look on their face. You know, for example, when I remember being on Andy's season and the first time I actually told Andy I loved her, we were in the ocean. We actually had to do it again.

So what you saw was like us reenacting the I love you, which was still very meaningful. So I was like saying I love her for the second time to, you know. But in the ocean, it just felt real. And I remember, I'll never forget it. Like we were just like, you know, you're wrapped in each other's arms, like in wading water and beautiful ocean looking at each other. And I said it to her. And in that moment, I was so tuned in to like every her, what she said to me, her body language, what she was looking at, how she was looking at me.

I was, oh, man, I've never been so present in my life than when I was on The Bachelor or Bachelorette, rather. And so when Greg is saying this and Katie's just like, oh, I'm sorry. I just love looking at you. Like it's, and again, like that with what chrissy is saying it's just like this is a guy who's like is bonding over this loss of the parent and he's just like what the fuck well and she even said at one point to like try and like make him feel better she's like well i told your family that you have a rose you're staying till next week and he was like it's not about the rose and then she's like well you've always been my top pick he's like i it's not about being the top pick he's like this

isn't about the competition aspect this is like seeing if we're gonna have a life together i mean katie's we all know katie's been and has been a huge fan of the show she's watched the season forever she is an expert if you will i mean we had her on the podcast been talking about thomas and you know like we all know thomas comes across as insensitive or disingenuous and all those things but she was hard on thomas right and it's you know katie talked a lot about that episode and when it was coming out she was tweeting about it telling people to coming out, she was tweeting about it, telling people to watch. I think she was excited about it. And it felt like to me watching it back when it happened that Katie thought it was her Hannah Brown moment

where you had a season of the pedestal. You had a season long of this Luke Parker guy being just terrible. Hannah being in love with this Luke Parker guy. And finally waking up to what bachelor nation saw the whole time yeah and that was just not what thomas was it was like yeah he might suck and he might be disingenuous but like you know when she did that with thomas it was like i mean i guess send him home but i don't this okay and I guess my I only bring that up because again I think she is this

very hyper aware of her role as the bachelorette and I don't fault her for it because I I do so empathize with Katie of how hard it is to be in her position but I think in these situations it's catching up with her and it's it's hurting her wow so i feel like i'm in a room that's like completely team greg on this no no i'm with you else because i was gonna say like to your point hold on don't say you're with me i say i don't know if you know my stance on it so i don't okay but but i ali amanda is is uh well i don't know that i have i don't think i'm a team i think i think there's like mutual hurt and i don't think that like hurt always means someone did something wrong but to wells's point about saying like greg didn't like does greg not know

the show i think it's that i think i view this as greg thinking that he was above the rules i think and i think katie helped him feel that way by giving him the first impression rose and then a one-on-one right away and then by clearly reassuring him throughout this entire time i think greg has felt separate from this show in a way that katie has allowed him to feel but that is ultimately causing him to judge her with unfair standards because she is still at the center of this and has obligations you're probably right and every almost every winner and sometimes the runner-up feels that way It's the only way the show works. You know, when the person going through it is this like watches the other, these other guys and girls go on dates. You're just like, they don't have what we have. They can't,

they can't possibly have what we have. And it's usually just one and sometimes two, right? Like Blake on, on Becca season. Like I really empathize with Blake because like, you know, I've I related to Blake when he was the runner up because like that was a runner up that like was like, what? Huh? You know, and I get all that. But and again, I don't I can't relate to Greg. I'm just trying to we're getting some perspective from Chrissy and like I think we're kind of dismissing what their whole relationship was based off at least from an edit standpoint was this connection of this mutual loss of their fathers and we are reminded this episode of just how how unsettled and unresolved these emotions are for Greg. And so while I get Katie's role as a bachelorette and while she was stuck between a rock and a hard place when Greg was, when first reacted, the most Katie gave Greg when he was like,

nah, I'm done was,'m going to leave if you leave. So like, you're right. Greg forced her hand and maybe that's unfair. It's unfair from a show standpoint for Greg to force Katie's hand because she has a job to do. I feel for Katie there. But we are talking about real feelings and real people. And for all the doubts people have about like whether this show is real or not, you saw Greg having real feelings and real people and for all the doubts people have about like whether this

show is real or not you saw greg having real feelings and why didn't katie just say fuck it i love you and it's okay if she doesn't well so you just said like they're these are real people with real feelings and i think that like what's being lost in translation here is there's now two other guys that are being like just thrown out into the wake of this whole thing and so i think that katie is trying to be conscient conscientious of those people sure and the problem is is that they're watching this back i don't know what happens with katie and who she picks or if she picks anybody but if she's having to watch this back with with someone that she picks whether it's justin or blake or i don't know maybe michael comes back i don't know how that happened. Maybe Thomas makes researches, whatever. This is to be the worst

thing in the world for their relationships, like full stop period. And I think that she maybe is so much of a fan of the show that she knew that this is an issue and she didn't want, she was thinking about that going you know, going forward. I kind of applaud her for trying to have the foresight of not wanting to hurt a bunch of other people. As the lead of the show, 100%, you are totally right. I mean, I joke, I still have neck problems from the stress that I had when I was down to my final three. Yeah. And I knew I was going to pick Vanessa.

But I was, I felt a real close bond, real close, and so much respect for Rachel and Raven. I was so empathetic, especially Raven. I mean, I was a two-time runner-up. I got crushed. And I said this over and over. I related more with Raven than I did Vanessa. Like, I'm about to do to Raven what I thought,

like, I just couldn't, you know, I was so angry at the time with Andy and Caitlin. So like, I had such empathy for Raven that I was so in my head about like, just being so from a, being the bachelorette, I totally, you're absolutely right with Katie. That, but that, that, that solidifies Greg's point of view. And all Greg is saying is like, I just don't care about the show right or wrong. Come at me for saying I should have known what I signed up for. But if Katie in that moment, because I will tell you, minus all the empathy I wanted to have for Raven and Vanessa, if Raven pulled a Greg. Right. And forced my hand. Right? Or I'm sorry, Vanessa, if Vanessa forced my hand, I would have been like, fuck it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

This is my life. I love her. I'm not letting her leave. I love you. I don't care. Sue me. If, if I literally would have done whatever I had to do to get Vanessa to stay. And we can criticize Greg for not playing by the rules and fucking up the show and maybe being selfish and all these things. 100% are throwing a temper tantrum. But it's also proving his point that like Katie is strong as Greg feels for Katie. Katie doesn't feel the same way to Greg. And that was ultimately Greg's point is she, I know she doesn't feel the same way to Greg and that was ultimately Greg's point is she I know she doesn't feel the same way I feel about her well I also wonder if

the way that he reacted to the whole thing changed the way she felt about him because it does come it does come off a little like a kid having a tantrum and it's like well that's not very sexy dude like buckle in boys and why katie could have said that she hasn't said that i mean maybe not yet yeah she i feel like she gave him a lot more positive affirmation than any other bachelorette that i've seen in a very long time colton cassie quote that we can throw that one out i don't even remember that season but like colt but that's i mean you talked about changing ben pagans fucked it up so to speak yeah you say what you want colton and cassie these days or all that but in that moment colton showed you and was well revered like loved for it that he

prioritized what mattered most to him over the show and And he showed us, we've seen, Chris Harrison has given multiple interviews in the past where they've always teased, well, do you, can you think you, do you want to quit the show? And Chris has been like, if you want to quit, we can quit. And Chris has always said that in the past and Batchelor Nation is like, yeah, okay, whatever.

You're not going to end the show. But no, like they'll adjust. They'll figure it out. And Colton proved that by saying, fuck no i don't care sorry taisha sarah hannah g like i i'm sorry if this makes you feel left out or dismissive and i didn't mean to bring you this far i'm sorry i'm sorry but like i i this is my life and katie could have done that and she didn't and that's fine because maybe she's not in love with greg maybe she's still torn between greg and blake and you can criticize greg for being a little petulant and and maybe dismissive and mean but greg seemed to be

incredibly vulnerable and exposed and i mean that's you and that's what you saw that's what i felt like i just feel bad for both of them i mean like my sympathies go to both of them like obviously you're right like all we ever want from people on this show is for them to be their authentic self i think that greg was that uh regardless of like what people want to say about him i think he's he's being pretty genuine about his feelings and everything him i think he's he's being pretty genuine about his feelings and everything and i think that katie's put in a tough place i think that she knows in her mind that greg's the guy and this is happening and she is like freaking out because she's trying to carry the show because she's the lead and she doesn't know how to go about it and i

think they're just both put in really bad positions. And I think that they obviously don't have an amazing communication love language or whatever. And that's the big disconnect. Like a lot of this is just being lost in translation for them. So I feel bad for both of them. I don't know. I totally agree. And I like that you said that because we're not picking sides. We're just breaking it down.

Ultimately, what this tells me is like they're not they shouldn't be together like there's clearly a connection there maybe there's a physical attraction there i don't know what the maybe it is trauma bonding but they don't seem like they're necessarily compatible but you brought a thing you mentioned though is greg's original point is that he doesn't want to win. He wants to fall in love. Yeah, but those are relative terms, though. Sure, I get it. And we are debating it on a show about having a winner.

I'm just saying, like, how can we fault a guy for trying to make what is often criticized as a not real experience real? But he left. And I understand that in that moment, he must have felt really, really underserved by Katie's reaction. He was being so vulnerable and she let him down. But how does that sort of contextualize his confession of love if he's going to walk away after one moment of feeling let down? i can only guess by if i was in completely in love and felt vulnerable and stripped down of all my walls and the person i was saying this to made me feel like they were playing a role and prioritizing being the bachelorette over their

relationship i would be like i get the fuck out of here she like what am i doing why did i just do that why did i just she doesn't give a shit yeah but she wants to win there are real world implications for that though if the first if you get out of this show and the first time you get a fight and you're like fuck it i'm out like what we did this whole thing and all of a sudden when we get one fight and it's over like dude come on yeah no i i get that but this is a this is you know greg's is like i'm i'm expected to ask you to marry me in six days i mean it's not you know so it's it's so hyperbolic the whole the world you know and also like i wonder because like it's still unclear we don't know again we

don't know is katie gonna quit the show is she gonna you know rebound a la uh desert ray you know when when uh brooks left and she's she's literally still with um the guy she ended up with and they have a kid together and a beautiful relationship but like what happened we we still don't know and all i'm saying is like clearly they're they shouldn't be together which kind of makes chris she's with chris which which makes kind of greg's point and he's just like i don't want to win because what's interesting going back to desiree's season brooks would have won if if greg doesn't leave greg we can all agree we are gonna guess greg would win greg doesn't want to win yeah so if katie is now happy with someone let's say she

does pick blake like i mean she's not gonna pick justin let's and she comes out at afr and just like i'm so happy we're in love everything happens for a reason blah blah blah blah blah like then greg was right the whole time he was just like you're gonna pick me and i don't want you to pick me i want you to fall in love with me and katie said by not saying anything uh your semantics though like what do women always say like i want you to choose me well i'm choosing you you're gonna be the guy at the end like you're just playing you know i have the benefit of hindsight yes for sure but okay so you used your colton analogy and so i'm going to use another analogy for the other side uh okay when peter basically was like, Maddie, it's you, and then Maddie bailed, then he had to go and be like, Hannah Ann?

And it was terrible. And you don't think that's in this poor girl's mind of like, if I just go like fully pot committed on you and you bail, then I can't do the Hannah Ann thing to either Justin or Blake. I get it. But the best example you gave was a guy who then broke up with Hannah Ann, went back to Maddie, and then started dating Kelly. Okay. Well, I could throw holes in your example as well. Yeah.

It's an imperfect world. I get it. Here's the thing. You were just talking about like going on the after the final rose and so this is where like i do i'm still like i'm sorry if i'm gonna keep on beating this dead horse i feel really bad for these other guys like every and i'm sure these other guys are like i'm so fucking sick of the greg show like can we please not have like justin must be so fed up with the Greg show already.

And so here's what's going to happen. One of two things are going to happen. We're going to go on AFR and you're going to do what she said, which you're going to do what you said, which is she's going to be like either Blake or Justin or whoever, like we're totally in love. And it's like, whatever, like water on the bridge. I'm curious what I, I'm actually curious. I, I, I.

Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Go ahead, please. So that happens and it's like, okay, whatever. I guess everything works out the way it's going to,

but just from watching Katie this season, I don't think this girl is going to take any shit. Now, the problem that is going to arise is that if she gets mad at Greg for this, it's going to perception is, is reality in this world. It's going to look bad like very bad and then i feel really bad once again for the other two guys whoever it is because they're gonna be like motherfucker it's the greg show again and i don't even know if this relationship's

real it's a yeah and as a tv that's the thing i let's i'm glad you brought that up what i i think she's gonna pick blake i don't think because she has a great connection with blake it's still a lot there and i go back to when she was crying in the bathroom and the first thing she said to caitlin and yeah you say it's semantics but i think the devil is in the details when we you know people call up and ask the relationship question a lot of like giving them answers is like, what do they say first? What do they prioritize? Katie said, I feel blindsided. Then she said, I feel heartbroken. And I think that matters when you say like, when you, when we feel blindsided in life,

our egos have a tendency of taking over. We feel vulnerable. Katie said to Greg's mom, everyone gets hurt except one guy katie's not expecting to get hurt she's not she didn't go into this get heartbroken you know and so i think she's blindsided by a guy who's definitely her favorite but she might be selling her relationship with blake short again desiree and chris are married with a kid and she was going to pick Brooks. It's an imperfect world and we can be, you know, you know, lead with our physical, you know, I've said this before, like you, most people go in and physical attraction really plays a role because it's the only thing you can trust. I trust my eyes. I don't know these people. I haven't had any real conversations. I don't know

how we fight together, but I know I'm attracted to them. Right. And, and there's a lot we have to find out when the show's over, if it's real or not. I don't think Desiree and Brooks would be together today if, you know, if, if she would have picked Brooks. So it's an imperfect world, right? Peter, his best relationship with that show was Kelly, who he sent before hometowns, right? And so definitely an imperfect world. I'm worried for Katie at AFR because you're right. I want Katie, if she's with Blake, to just be happy because, and I'm worried that she's going to go after Greg. I think she's going to feel scorned and I think it's going to backfire.

And I think it will leave a bad taste in Bachelor Nation's mouth about her relationship with Blake. And I think it will validate Greg even more. And I hope I'm wrong. I don't think I will be. But she called, well, she essentially called Greg a bigger villain than Thomas on our podcast. We asked her, is there a bigger villain than Thomas?omas she said yes obviously she didn't say name name names but based off what we what has played out you know i think it's greg yeah right and so she's obviously hurt by him and we in in a lot of ways maybe justifiably so time has passed and yeah i'm afraid that i hope katie doesn't i hope she's just like hey after

watching it back and again let's assume she picks blake she's had all these months to focus on her relationship with blake and build it and she can watch this back and say you know what you're right i i was caught up our our we could be bonded over parents, but I realize now you probably, I didn't realize this in the time, but you were right about us. And it got a little ugly because we cared about each other, because feelings were involved, but you like, thanks, because now I'm so happy and I have Blake and oh my God, I can't wait to start my life with blake i hope she does that and i'm afraid she's gonna forget about that go after greg and i think it's gonna completely backfire don't you think that her response to michael at the men tell all kind of lead to that what do you mean well because

michael basically offered himself up at the men tell all and was like hey look if it didn't work out like i'm still here i'm still in love with you like whatever she talked a lot about you and she was like it happened for a reason i'm very happy in the way i am right now she's suggesting she's with someone yeah yeah and that she's happy doing whatever because if she's not if if if greg left and she's like i don't know what to do i'm gonna quit the show which maybe would give her a little bit more it would make more sense for her to go after greg at afr then yeah she you know she doesn't have to like that's the thing is sometimes in katie's defense like michael maybe she could have left the show and realized like michael's it's not my guy she has the right to not want to be with michael just

because michael wants to be with her greg has the right to leave too right you know the bachelorette is supposed to break up with the people but that's not how it always works and so but you're right chrissy i think minus all what could be it suggests that she is very much in a relationship and quote unquote happy i have a question for the ladies in the room. I want to know how you, not the first conversation that Greg and Katie had, which was like after the hometown and in the dark and in front of the car. When he comes to visit her the next day and like how that all plays out,

I want to know how you guys felt in that interaction okay i felt like he was stonewalling her and i think chrissy's point about like i don't know what it's like to lose a parent so i think it's important in saying like whatever my judgments are on him i lack the life experience to understand what he's going through with that said i thought he was stonewalling her i thought that i thought he was just what do you mean and when you say it's still like i thought he was shut downing her. I thought he was just- What do you mean? And when you say stonewalling, what do you mean? Like I thought he was shut down. Yeah.

And when she was like, are you leaving? And he's like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. And then he left her sitting. He left her on the floor after she chased after him. She is like on her knees, like literally saying, I'm so confused what happened. And he gets up and for the second time leaves without saying goodbye, leaving her sitting there on the floor. And I don't think that's how you treat the woman you're about to propose to well he's not anymore right but but he less than 24 hours ago i i totally agree it's completely

drastic i just and again i wouldn't have handled myself like g. I just, I'm just, if, if you've decided that the person you are so in love with and just said, fuck it, I'm going for it. And you decided that person was more concerned about being the bachelorette than their relationship with you, what would you do? I mean, yeah, his reaction was harsh. It was abrupt. It was definitive. But like, what would you do? I also, there was like such a weird similarity when she ran after him to like go see him by the pool

or wherever that outdoor was. She goes up to him and she goes, I just wanted to give you a hug. I'm like, that's exactly what you said to Andrew S. That was fucking weird. Let's run after people and say, I just wanted to give you a hug. I just like looking at you. I just, like, no. That's a good point.

It was the exact same phrase she gave Andrew S. But then with Andrew S. it was like, would you want to stay if you could? And then like with this, she's like, I don't't know what to tell you I've been like so nice to you I don't know what to say I've been so honest and upfront with you blah blah blah like I was just like okay well you're not solving any of the problems he's brought to light you're not convincing him of anything you're not convincing America of anything so I hope you enjoyed your hug bye-bye well as you brought up, cause there's things we don't get to see,

right? Yeah. Probably went on for a while, but like every time. So Greg left abruptly. Right. And then we see Katie just kind of sitting there and then she gets up. Greg leaves abruptly again.

She sits there and then abruptly gets up and says, I'm quitting. And there's an edit, edit right for the sake of time it just it felt like she was like someone in the background was like maybe you should go after him and chase him like you know what i'm saying why isn't she 100 why it's always uh wait wait wait wait then she reacts and we don't know if that was someone saying something to her or not, but there was never in the moment, like, where are you going? I would have been like, again, if Vanessa was like, I would like, what?

No, fuck it. I just wouldn't have reacted. And Katie, you're right. Katie has the right to not react the way I react. Everyone's different for how they process crazy, stressful situations. But there seems to be a pattern of her holding back. And maybe it's, again, all Greg is saying is you care more about your role. And I empathize with Katie because it is so hard.

I mean, I really empathize with the positions he's stuck in so it's yeah I feel for both of them and I guess all I'm saying is maybe they're just not supposed to be together and this is how they broke up yeah like I said I think it's super nuanced

I think it's a lot more complex than we any of us can really understand um and to go back to your point of like if i feel like you know there was someone might have been like hey maybe you should go after him but then you're giving the benefit of the doubt uh to greg and not to her like the same could be said for him and all of the decisions that he's made at the end of the day like what did he want all he wanted her to say was, I'm in love with you too, right? Like, is that the baseline? Is that what we understand? I also recognize his feelings. She didn't even say, I'm sorry that you, she never once said,

I'm sorry that I made you like, that you feel that way. I'm sorry I didn't give you this kind of like vulnerability. I'm sorry if I made you like that you feel that way. I'm sorry I didn't give you this kind of like vulnerability. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the communication. Like she never says like, I'm sorry. I thought in her point when she was saying, I'm like, I'm sorry, I was trying to listen and process it. Yeah, she was like, I was trying to listen, but it wasn't what he was looking for.

She was looking for him saying, I understand where you're coming from. She came around. But she can't understand where he's coming from. But he believes that she can't because they share this bond that only the two of them can understand. Right. So he's coming at it from that place. Yeah.

I mean, if you bonded over the, I don't know. Yeah. And also to answer your question, Greg was very clear about like, I get what the world I'm in. greg was very clear about like i i get what the world i'm in i think after they're all unpacked that's what would it that's what it would have taken for greg to stay by her saying i don't care i love you i can't imagine a world without you you can feel safe loving me back i think that's what it would have taken but i don't think that's what he needed when he said that. I think he needed some acknowledgement. I think he needed more than a glazed look and a response of, I just love looking at you.

Flip the role. Bachelor, objectively beautiful bachelorette suitor girl who's vulnerable and scared and she pours her heart out and the bachelor's just like i just love looking at you i mean you know we often will criticize a guy leading with his penis and being physically attracted and i'm not saying that's what katie meant and it can be awkward just like what it might feel like to be vulnerable and then have someone say something what feels superficial. It's just such a hard thing. Like the show aside,

and you can answer this question. How the fuck do you respond to somebody that tells them, tells you that they love you and you don't want to say it back? You can't say it back. Is there any right way of saying it back to them or saying something back to them?

I could try. You know? Like, Nick, I'm just in love with you. Really, Vanessa? You know, like, I could just be like... Am I in love? Are we role-playing me saying I'm in love with you? Or am I going back to being The Bachelor?

So I am Greg, and you can't say I love you back. I'm in love with you. I would say something like, you know, obviously, first of all, I would immediately acknowledge what you're saying, and then I would remind you there's things I can't say, but you've never made me feel more safe and connected, and thank you so much for sharing. There's so much I wish I could say.

When I was in the ocean with Andy, you know what her response was? I wish so badly I could say something back. Now, she didn't pick me anyways, but in that moment, I felt like I got a valid response from her. I felt like she heard me. I just don't feel like there's no right answer

because you're still not getting the thing that you want. I'm not trying to shit on Katie here. me. I just don't feel like there's no right answer because you're still not getting the thing that you want, you know? I'm not trying to shit on Katie here. You're right. To your point, it's awkward, it's difficult, and just because Katie said I love looking at you, maybe it was just some confusion coming out. I'm just saying, from Greg's

point of view, I can see how it just, everything changed. And you're right. I can see how it just everything changed. And you're right. I don't think Katie did anything wrong. I don't think Greg did anything wrong. I think my conclusion is these are just two people who shouldn't be together because maybe they bonded over things that really aren't going to bring a love and a connection with a lifetime. And I guess my hope is that's why I hope Katie is happy. I hope she picks Blake.

I hope she le Blake I hope she leans in at the relationship that looks like it there's a real there's a lot of goodness there and I hope come AFR she is over this loss yeah me too and and that's what I hope I have a question which is how did what did you guys make of the the giving up narrative of her saying I feel like in that moment you know when they're in the dark room and they're talking and she's like wait i feel like this is the first time that you're giving up on us and then for him to then say that in their second conversation is like how could you say this to me yeah i guess can i ask ask you guys a question i bet i'm i think that's what you're getting at but if even in the whether it's the bachelorette or in this world,

if you keep trying your best and maybe you're not good at opening up or whatever and because that person likes you the most is doubting you at every turn, it feels like you don't want to be here. It feels like Katie don't want to be here. It feels like, you know, Katie constantly doubts Greg. There's just a lot of not connecting and miscommunication going on. And I don't know, again, that there's no right or wrong. You know, it's just two people who aren't getting through to one another. felt like Greg made his decision based off of like this. When I pour my heart out to someone, this is not the response I want to get. And I think we all have a right to have expectations of how we receive love when we want to give it.

And Greg has a right to be mad and maybe come across as a little stone wally and done and guarded and and all those things but like i can't what would it be like for katie has been doubting greg all season long and doesn't that have an effect on someone when you're like it would can you imagine like it would bug the shit out of me every time i was like nally i love you so much she's like i don't know do you i'm i just wonder if you really do it's gonna be stressful trying to make someone feel loved who'd never you know it that that's a thing in relationships people constantly not feeling like they can make someone feel loved didn't though didn't katie say I'm falling for you first and then he didn't respond to it?

Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, again, I. That's what I say is so nuanced and there's so much that we don't really understand. I just want to be clear. I am not team Greg over team Katie. I feel for both of them.

Yeah. I think what this shows is that they shouldn't be together and breakups are messy and they're vulnerable and there's some legitimate hurt on both sides i just go back to like what you brought up earlier i think what this matters at this point now is how is this going to be handled going forward how is katie going to approach this whole thing will she rebound will she be able to process these emotions is she going to hold on to this narrative in her head that greg's a bigger villain than thomas is she going to go after greg at afr or is she going to lean into her happiness i mean a lot is left to be unpacked here um and that's that's what

i'm confident of and i just i i wish them both the best as far as their their breakup but i don't think either of them necessarily i don't think anyone all i know is this is greg is not too good that good of an actor and there's no that there's no good acting coach out there that could be like you know what here here's some here's some exercises go in and you know like i think everyone's being authentically who they are yeah to be honest well i think we covered it um wells it's so good to have you uh good to see you buddy we uh we really unpacked that yeah um other than we have a bachelor possibility on paradise anything else you can share with us or tease uh what can we look forward to yeah there's um there's always like the cliche bachelor in paradise things that happen you know people get in relationships before the show

um people try to scheme behind the scenes and you're like come on guys you should be smarter than this it's like kind of all those things are happening uh but something does happen this season that uh has never happened before that absolutely blows my mind i can't i can't believe it happened if not for like crazy circumstances, this would never happen in bachelor nation. And I think people are just going to be like, just jaws on the floor blown away by it. So it's going to be good. Does it have a happy ending or is it have a sad ending?

Semantics again, I guess you got to wait and see it's it's not it's not great nice yeah it's not great good tv it's gonna be good great tv yeah well thank you so much always good to see you buddy uh make sure you follow wells adams on instagram and twitter and all that can you do it in your fun radio voice? Wells Adams! The first time I've done radio voice was trying to impersonate you. Me, yeah, yeah. You have obviously, Wells has a lot, Wells has a lot of things

going on. Check out all his crazy and wonder-wacky things. Thanks for listening, guys. It's been 299 episodes. Tomorrow is 300. I couldn't be 300 Jesus you are in our hearts you're 300

number one in the field number 299 you were perfect for this episode it required another well versed bachelor alum to guide us through this very nuanced breakup and i feel really good about

it yeah it'll be good um so thank you so much yeah buddy and thank you guys for listening we'll see you back tomorrow for number 300 bye Bye.