The Viall Files - E315 Bachelor In Paradise Recap With Ali Barthwell

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

We're breaking down all the BIP drama with Ali Barthwell, comedian, staff writer for Last Week Tonight with John Oliver and Vulture! Ali brings the hottest of takes and has a lot to say...per usual. ���Here it is like the tinder is walking amongst you …” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  For merch please visit www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: ShipStation- http://www.shipstation.com enter code VIALL to get aa 60 day free trial  Obe Fitness- http://www.obefitness.com use code VIALL for a FREE one-month trial.  Rothys- http://www.rothys.com/VIALL to find your new warm weather favorites today Wondery - Even The Rich: Mariah Carey: Listen to Even the Rich on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or you can listen ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @wtflanksteak See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome back to another episode of the Vile Files Bachelor in Paradise Recap Edition. Hope you are enjoying your day, whatever day it is that you decided to tune in and listen to the best hot takes in Bachelor Nation. We have a fantastic episode for you. The wonderful Allie Barthwell is with us today to help us break down these two episodes. I discovered Allie on Twitter. She has been recapping Bachelor episodes for Vulture for some time now. She is an incredibly accomplished writer and I'll let Allie say hi and kind of break down what she's all about as well but uh we have an absolute fantastic episode for you today because one there's a lot of talk about and two ali is with us with uh some wonderful hot takes uh she everything she puts out there uh i've what i love about it because ali is not a part of bachelor

nation in the sense that she hasn't been in it and yet yet, as someone who has, I really respect the people who can be critical and objective and have some great takes. And Allie is one of those people. So Allie, welcome. Thanks for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. Oh, what an intro. You're great. So high expectations. So high expectations. Okay. Wow. Really got to live up to it now. Thank you so much. I'm not worried at all. Before we break down the episode, just a couple housekeeping notes. We do have an absolute dynamite episode for you tomorrow. The one and only Michael A. is with us.

Michael, as you know him from Katie's season. Just a really great discussion with Michael. He is just truly an incredible guy, having met with him and sat down with him. There's so much more to Michael, as we often realize, than what you saw on the show. And he talks a lot about his future, the prospects of him being the next Bachelor, more detail about life before the show. So you definitely don't want to miss that. And if nothing else, make sure to check out our Ask Nick episodes

on every Monday. Send in your questions at asknickatcastmedia.com, cast with a K if you're interested in interesting, heartfelt relationship stories and advice. If you're into that sort of thing, you definitely will not want to miss those episodes. Anything else I'm missing, Chrissy? Nope, I think you got it.

All right, well, Allie, let's get to it. Oh boy the villain the villainy the rapscallionry the roguery that is going on on this beach is it's incredible it's like at a level that we haven't seen in a long time and it's so blatant and like barefaced that i think is the the issue for me yeah yeah there's there's there really is so much to discuss and peel back so let's try to keep on track you know obviously the the the piper and brendan is the biggest thing to discuss and even that i want to almost talk about like their plan and their crime and how poorly executed and then we'll get into you know some of the more triggering topics of just how it's like it's one thing to go and be on the tv show and lean into that but like

how they or their lack of empathy towards natasha is a whole nother discussion and so we will get in into that as well but a lot of it was fascinating like you said because it was almost just even for myself like shocking their lack of self-awareness or just the fact it's like it's like hey we're it's a tv show but then they forgot it was a tv show yeah it's like you are mic'd there are cameras everywhere like they got night vision cameras in the bang room like what do you why do you think you're you're hiding anything yeah it it made no sense but let's let's try to keep on track let's start where the episode on monday picks off and it's with these two episodes.

It's like almost like, oh, my God, Kendall and Joe. We forgot they're even on the beach. But yet the episode kicks off with Kendall coming down, as we saw last week, and Kendall and Joe talking. We all love Joe. You know, Kendall, I've met her. She's nice. I guess long story short, there's a lot of discussions in

these past couple weeks and especially these two episodes uh and it's what kicks off what i kind of call like triangle week like there's all the triangulation of all these various relationships really came to a head and it starts with joe kendall and then you have serena and i guess long story short i just really didn't I didn't think anything Kendall said ultimately made sense because for all the people who could have dealt with their stuff outside of the beach no one more than Kendall because that was a legitimate relationship they had dated for two years that was real substantive stuff and it seemed like you know for all the what what was stopping kendall from doing what she did and it

seemed like clearly it was because she needed joe to go on tv for her to step up to the plate so to speak and then when she did I would have been totally fine if she's like, listen, yeah, say what you want. I shouldn't have, like it took, but the TV aspect freaked me out. Why didn't she just come with like an actual like actionable plan?

Like I don't, I get you don't want to move for a man, but then like, don't like, that's a real non-negotiable. Yeah, this was a conversation that should have been handled at a strip mall panera over coffee and like a sad salad like this doesn't this is something that you handle right after the breakup and it seems like there is a little bit of kendall almost wanting to rewrite exactly what happened after the breakup rather than saying like, oh, I'm we did something wrong. There was some fight that we didn't resolve. It sounds like it all was resolved.

Yeah. And then I love how Joe was just like, hey, you're leaving out a big part. And, you know, then we get into the he said, she said. said and i guess to me none of all that really matters because as we know when we break up and especially when conversations happen a while back you know so easily we forget but it was more what she said to joan it was like she literally is like i don't know even what i want or what i'm saying i just want you in my life at some capacity and it's just like well what is what is that? And what is someone like Joe who like we, what they both agree about is that there are still real feelings there. And you know what? That happens all the time in life. You can have real feelings for someone

and for whatever reason say, we can't make this work. And for all the conversations about relationships between your pet peeves and your non-negotiables, long distance is a legit non-negotiable. When you have two people who are like, listen, I don't like say what you want. My family's here and my family's, that's fine. And yeah, it is heartbreaking and sad, but it's still justified. But yet Kendall comes down with this like, I'm not willing to move. I know you're not going to move. Like, let's be best.

Like, what is that? Let's be best. I don't understand. She's saying that Joe's non-negotiable shouldn't count as a reason why the relationship didn't work. So she wants to find another reason why the relationship didn't work.

And it doesn't seem like there is one. And, you know, you can't make if someone says I have this non-negotiable, whether, you know, my mom always jokes, it's like kids, money and religion are like the three biggest non-negotiables in a relationship. You got to handle those three things the same way. And it sounds like this came down to kids. Where do we want to raise our kids? Where do we want to start a family? And you can't tell someone that their non-negotiable isn't a good enough reason to end the relationship.

That's why it's a non-negotiable. That was so well said that. Yeah. Yeah. Kendall was trying to come up with a new reason why the relationship didn't work. That was so good. And I think it's also like this romanticization of our breakups that for each relationship, we have to have like learned the lesson and gathered some wisdom. And now we hold a piece of this person's heart in our heart. And it's like, sometimes you don't want to live in the same place. And sometimes his friends fucking suck.

And sometimes his mom is weird to you. And that just is it. And there's nothing to learn or discover about yourself. It just doesn't work. And I think Kendall wants it to be this bigger, you know, narrative that something about them didn't work or didn't click or there's something in her and Joe that. And it's like you just didn't she didn't want to move to Chicago, which like as a person in Chicago, it's a great city, in my opinion, better than L.A.

It's way cheaper, at least. It's like that is that's a perfectly fine reason. uh it's like that is that's a perfectly fine reason you and you don't learn anything from that other than hey if this is a non-negotiable if this if me not moving is it going to be an issue i should know that up front yeah relationship next time she meets a guy who lives in chicago she should just be like i i know how this plays out and that's fine so yeah and then either of you think that her narrative is is part of the reason why she went there just to make sure like joe wasn't like only saying one side of the one side of the relationship no i don't think it was that i think she just didn't like that joe was on tv and i think she it was triggering for her and that's i think that's the part that is again for all the talk about you didn't need to do this

on the beach you're here for tv I just don't see how we can look at it any other way that Kendall you know kind of came for tv or to stop Joe from creating a new story on tv it was the TV of it all because she's had two years, like you said, to go to Panera and order a salad and not eat it and have a weird conversation that goes nowhere. And then she's weirdly staying.

It felt more of a like, well, if you're going to do this, I get to do this too. And not in a malicious way, but just sort of like, oh, I didn't know this was an option. But if you get to do this, I get to do this. It's like, OK, I guess, girlfriend. Like, are you going to have fun? Yeah. Probably not.

This was a week where many of the men really, really tapped into their fuck boy side by not like even Kenny up until this week was being pretty upfront, being direct, uh, just owning his, their decisions. And now we get into the week where like the guys just settled, talked a lot and said absolutely nothing. And here's my thing. If you go be a fuck boy be good at it that's the thing is none of these men are good at it because it's they're not i wonder if they're not used to having to like come up with these stories or keep their story straight or like you know if you're string and we'll get to the brendan and piper and the like even like looking ahead like the chris and jac just any of it all.

It's like if you're going to string a woman along so you can just stay there till somebody else comes. It's like don't convince her you're in love with her. Don't convince her that you're having this romantic moment with her. Just do the bare minimum. The fuck boy has discovered the art of doing the bare minimum. And all of these men were doing way too much. We talk a lot about meeting your health and wellness goals and we have another great digital fitness platform for you and we have Obey here for you to help you meet your goals. Obey

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Get your Rothy's. Except the bare minimum with being honest because up into this point brendan was his goal was to do in fact the bare minimum and yet when and when forced to just be up front or lie at the risk of going home he always opted for the lie and he justified it in his mind by saying i haven't really done anything with natasha like he kept justifying by to himself by like what's really the crime you could tell like that's what he was thinking and or or i'm doing her a favor because she gets to stay another week without, without realizing, you know, if you go back and look, he is actually convincing her to stay,

convincing her to stay with him. She's having, she has moments where she's like, I could maybe pursue other people or what is happening between us. And he doesn't say like, well, this is a friendship rose or, you know, you shouldn't feel beholden to me he has those moments where he kind of gets right on that edge of being like he never fully lets her go and you know we're obviously going to bunce around there was a part where joe was talking i'm sorry where brenna was talking to tasha and he said in tasha

when i gave you that rose i said you deserve love even if it's not with me now that wasn't aired and so when when Brennan first said that I'm thinking oh well okay and then I thought to myself wait a second that was week one that was when the guys had the roses you went a whole nother week of needing Natasha to give you a rose. So whatever you said to Natasha, when you gave her that rose was completely negated by you making sure you got Natasha's rose to get to Piper. So like, it doesn't, it doesn't matter what happened. Yeah. This is an audio medium, but I am nodding. I'm nodding vigorously. Yeah. So it was just like, he's like, he almost had me. I was like, Oh, well, if like oh if you said that okay maybe it's edited but you didn't get to see it but I was

like well wait a second like no that was all that was that was a whole week earlier so she gave she gave you a full shirt off massage sir like established the boundaries earlier yes and and yeah so okay we'll we'll dive more into that so then we can't we get into oh just props i guess i just want to acknowledge that maybe joe was the original chin grabber because in the weird kendall and joe montage we we saw the play out of riley's playbook i i've never seen so much chin grabbing for the makeout and apparently it's a thing so you know riley and joe can debate who was the originator of the chin grab so now we kick off like mari is now you know deciding she still likes kenny you know that the mari kenny demi ended up being a mess. Definitely Demi, I really, even as my friend,

really hated how she approached the rejection of it all. She definitely didn't rise above. And ultimately, I just don't think Kenny likes Demi at all. No. Mari was a classic case for any guy or girl. I don't care. But when you break up with someone because either you want more options or you are unsure about your relationship, whatever Mari says, she ultimately

tried to fuck boy Kenny or break up with Kenny by saying, I don't know. I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to commit to this right now. And as a result of what is either a combination of greed, it's like the greed and boredom of it all in dating you know you date someone early on and you're just like oh you're nice but like i don't know i got like 14 other matches on on tinder and i kind of like them and then so you get greedy but then those don't pan out and you get a little bit bored and now mari's bored so she swerves back to to Kenny and it's just like, okay, that's fine. But we've seen this in life all the time where people, you know, we always talk about

like going back to your ex. It's like, yeah, maybe it'll work out. Probably not. But just know they lost the patience that they thought they had when it came to finding something better. And now they're just bored enough to tell you that they've learned their lesson and they truly love you. And that's essentially what Mari's doing. Yeah. And I don't think that is so bad because like, again, as like sort of a viewer of this is a very rich text about dating is it's not a bad thing to be like, we're dating casually, like nobody has any expectations of the other person. But I think the structure of the show forces these people into exclusivity way too early. And everything that both of them were saying are completely acceptable.

If you were like out in the real world, it's like I've gone on two dates with this guy. I kind of like him. We're already making plans, but I got these other dates lined up. So I'm going to two dates with this guy. I kind of like him. We're already making plans, but I got these other dates lined up. So I'm gonna go on my other dates. And in real life, he just wouldn't know you were going on other dates. Like he just wouldn't have access to your phone here.

It's like the phone is in front of you. The Tinder is walking amongst you. So you, she, I don't think what she, what she said was to me, it was like, fine.

He took it as this like amazing, complete rejection, went and ran off with Mari and then or with Demi and did a date with Tia. And it's like, sir, she's saying, hey, I actually do still want to pursue you. And rather than looking at like we're going back and we have to go, you know, we're we're continuing this thing. It's like just say we're starting back at day one. Like this is our new day one. From this point, we're going to decide how we want to date each other. And let's go forward. Yeah, that's a good point.

And I didn't have a problem with Mari saying that. It was more Mari's reaction to Kenny's reaction. And you're right. You make a good, excellent point that it's like casually dating online and having everyone's and having access to everyone's inbox that you're casually dating. Right. And like, what a nightmare. What a true disaster. True nightmare.

And to your point, you're right. They are all forced to like it's all it's all the world's hyperbolic. It's truly comical the strongest couple takes uh like so i thought you were the strongest couple if someone tells you that you're the strongest couple watch like that's that is a that's a heads up warning that you need to be very careful with how you manage your relationships that's checkoffs rose like it's exploding at some point in the future like you don't you don't bring it up in act one if it ain't going off in act three yeah it's uh it's a lot of everyone's you know the

strongest couple or whatever so finally you know piper piper shows up. Piper, it's so like Piper, you know, I'm here for Brendan. Bam. That's it. You know, that's been done before for sure. How they chose to air it. Clearly the show is going to lean into they've been set. Like we've seen this has been set up for some literally since episode one of this drama. So the show leans into Piper just saying,

I'm here for Brendan. Piper comes in. She asked Brendan out immediately. I know a lot of people made a big deal about the fact that she asked Brendan out. That's really a show element. That's production. Honestly, whether people pull 10 people or shoot,

a lot of people come in with an idea who they want to take out and sometimes they have to go through motions there's been less of either not showing it or it's not happening of that thing of i'm gonna take all the women aside and see who are the open guys or i'm gonna take all the guys aside and like see who's paired up so it's even like if they're not showing it then they're not showing it but if that's not happening it's like everyone is they're dating really badly to not check in and like see what's going on everyone's here for the chaos everyone is just injecting true nightmare energy sweet sweet fantasy baby Mariah Carey is one of the most successful singers of all time

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and trauma she survived along the way billboards name Mariah Carey's rise to fame and the heartbreak and trauma she survived along the way. Billboard's name, Mariah Carey, artist of the decade in the 90s. She's won five Grammys, sold more than 100 million albums worldwide. But in the late 90s, it all came crashing down, leaving the world to wonder, would she ever reach the heights of popular stardom? Again, I can't believe Mariah Carey really did this all. Anyways, you should listen to it listen to even the rich on apple podcast amazon music and you can listen ad free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app yeah i mean the truth is piper doesn't know how this works it's

her first time down there she made that abundantly clear throughout the entire episode so she doesn't know that many people came down and people are like yeah just go talk you know like before you before you ask someone out go just just talk to everyone like that right that happened you know there is that's the show element of it all um and i have no doubt that they're just like well you know it's your day card do what you want and they just kind of let her do what she want and and she chose brendan but this is and that this is where it just gets really you know brendan's clearly excited brendan says yes immediately and and this is where just it just i was truly just in shock i mean i most usually things don't surprise me as someone who

knows i've seen it all i've been there like a lot of the stuff that happens i kind of was like okay whatever i know the audience makes a big deal about it but like i know why this happened and but i just couldn't understand brendan's approach to this all and and just the and just the overall criticism of brendan is fine it's a tv show you don't take it seriously i don't got a problem with that you're not the you and piper are not the first couple to be talking everyone's doing that they all want to be on the show they all want followers i don't have a problem with any of that the complete lack of empathy towards natasha from both piper and brendan i that's where i that i'm just i'm lost by that and it it verges on it well their whole

plan hinges on natasha's too stupid to know what we're doing and natasha should be grateful that i even like was around her. Yeah. And I think those two things, you know, you can plan this. We're going to come down. We're going to go on a date. Just stay there till I get there again, like I said. But if your plan hinges on assuming that someone is stupid

and assuming that someone has no better options for whatever reason, it's just a really bad look. And then for me watching it it it's like adding in Natasha's one of the older women there if not the oldest woman there at this point and she's also like the only dark-skinned black girl on the beach at this point and like there's so many narratives about those two groups of people in particular and their lack of attractiveness or they should be grateful for what they get or they're cute for what you know with a caveat that it just if that if it was unintentional it was who you know it was whoever brendan had interest in him in the beginning whatever

but it is so like bordering on mean girl shit no cruel yeah just inject that in there it's so cruel and then for brendan to go talk to natasha and not talk to her like a human being to speak in like he's like a weird bachelor nation algorithm bot that's just spitting out nonsense phrases if i hear the word like spark one more time i'm gonna lose my mind these motherfuckers are transformers because it is all about the spark okay like it is insane the way that they are um the way that he's not being a real person because i think if natasha heard i like piper we went out a few times i think i got to pursue this i'm really sorry you're a great person and that was it she probably could have handled it and processed it but hearing like i understand that the coincidence of my seeing the seeing piper and the sparkaticity of our romantic connection must be explored like that's nonsense

total nonsense in fact you know natasha's been on the show natasha is a like a friend i've gotten to know her she's one of the smartest people in bachelor nation just in general so like i i don't i've had brendan on i don't know brendan outside of having him on as an interview via skype i've never met piper i don't know but i do like and and natasha showed it right natasha owned brendan in their last conversation just completely owned him the first conversation she had she was a she was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and if I guess yeah sure Natasha showed her vulnerability and that's what's the problem right Natasha's willingness to hear Brendan out

had nothing to do with her lack of intelligence or not being able to decipher it so that she liked him you know like talking to tasha after she got done filming and i was texting with tasha yesterday and last night she was worried about the show being i was just like you're gonna be fine you're a rock star like i know you're like but she was hurt right so as someone who gets their feelings hurt and gets truly rejected they always are afraid to watch that because like you know you don't want to watch yourself be rejected it sucks but that spoke to like how sincere or how she like she wasn't a willing participant in this game that

brendan and piper were showing like we'll get into this later but Brendan and Piper decided to lean in to like owning it on social media and like I I like that Brendan like called out like hey I respect that you're owning the you're here for the wrong reasons and then I went and saw Piper's and it was the all fair and love and war and I was like well wait like Natasha had no idea like she wasn't part of your game or no one there was no up front contract of like Natasha and Piper saying all right we both like the same guy to the to the best woman go the spoils like there was none of that no it was all behind her back and here Natasha no being a smart person feels extra silly because she is now looking back being like, I should have saw the signs. But all she was is this a vulnerable person who liked a guy and was willing to give a

guy she liked a chance to prove that he wasn't just bold face lying the entire time. Right. And I've been the Natasha in this situation where you'd like a guy and he's saying like, oh, I don't know. I got to go slow. So you're like, OK, I respect that because I respect your feelings as an individual person. I'm not going to trample you trample on whatever you're saying. vulnerability to see your empathy and understanding for another person be taken advantage of like that's even harder because if Natasha had said you know cool I'm gonna just go try and make out with everybody else I can if you're you'll be here if you're here and I'll come back to you but she really put in the work to try and make something with Brendan happen and it's not just my feelings were involved but my time and my energy and my consideration of another person was looked at as a play thing and wasn't valued. And that hurts so much more. It hurts to get rejected. It hurts to get rejected from someone you like.

And then it hurts even more to get rejected from someone you like that you tried to make it work with. And I think that also is where watching her, I was having those feelings of like, man, I know when I've tried and that person didn't work out, that feels awful. Totally. And because it's paradise, Natasha has seen other people come and people get asked out on dates and then go on dates only to come back and still want to pursue the original relationship. So Natasha must feel like she's like i'm not gonna you know as as a someone who's independent and whatever i'm not gonna i'm just gonna be poised i'm gonna let this play out i'm gonna believe in myself and and and they brennan and Piper, like, use that against Natasha for, like, not, you know, for not, you know, kind of being Demi or Mari of, like, just kind of in your face, aggressive disappointment and talking shit right away.

Yeah. When someone uses the qualities that you like about yourself and that you value about yourself to get what they want and to use it against you that is the stuff that is really bonkers and can mess you up and that's also how i know that you know i've seen people talking like oh maybe natasha was in on it's like why would you be in on that okay yeah i didn't see that why would you be in on that natasha mentioned that to me yesterday. I was like, where are you seeing this? But I was in New York. I ran into Natasha after filming. She didn't give me the details other than the fact that she was like, I was really, like she was really hurt.

Like from the time I saw her, she felt rejected and let on and played and and i all i can say is that was real for natasha and people like yeah there are real like you know it's so fascinating with bachelor nation it's like either it's like i keep trying to be like there's two two things can happen at the same time it can be a tv show it can be edited. We should be careful just the conclusions we jump to an edited TV show. And it can be real. And it can hurt people. And people can have real feelings and real emotions. You know what I'm saying?

Like it can be both. And Natasha, while it might be edited and we definitely didn't see everything, Natasha was truly let on. And she was truly hurt. And it was yeah so something had to be there for them to edit and the something that was there was someone's feelings being hurt correct 100 so here's what like just was just kind of like shocking to me and almost comical so brendan and like you know the obviously brendan has the bullshit about like

like we're this we're all shocked was brendan like did he really think that like anyone was gonna believe that he was surprised like oh wait what did they say hold on hold on yes read it for me this was obviously a coincidence i suppose is it obvious or do you suppose i obviously suppose that i mean like what the fuck does that mean and it's like is it a coincidence you are both famous bachelor people who are also hot like why would they not put you here together also you you you did at least the only thing he acknowledged is that they did hang out right right well you just you're just an idiot if you don't talk about it so like clearly you weren't totally shocked come on like you know

well that's the thing and if we get into brendan and piper date, it's like they didn't get their story straight. And Brendan relied on I said this in my recap for Monday. It's like, do not put the weight of your plan on the shoulders of a giddy 23 year old girl. Like that is not going to work. There's a reason that all of them in Oceans 8 were over 40. OK, like this, they this she Brendan and Piper did not get the story straight. And Piper was convinced that this was going to be a romantic weekend with her boyfriend and didn't think to like tell anybody the story. And you saw on the date, Brendan being like, wow, it's so amazing that you're here.

This person that I've only met twice in my life. Wink. Like, why are you? So it was so fast like I found that to be so so shocking and fascinating and just to provide context for the people like yeah like they had to get their story straight before they showed up okay fine you can you know again people do that and they don't like the the producers, the producers know the show, like they had no time. They, they know these people aren't thinking they're playing checkers, not chess. You know, they, they know that.

So they, they make sure that they're Mike the whole time. And, and, and Brendan and Piper are just the whole time. We're just dying to like, try to be like, what's up. And they just never had a chance and my only explanation for why they were so foolish with what they talked about is because they they didn't know what else to do and it was kind of fascinating because like you're right brendan's talking to piper kind of like with his eyes and and and like he always talks slow but i felt like he talked extra slow because like he wanted piper to like hear every single word to understand what he was trying to tell her

he was like listen to me we have met twice i have dated other people on the beach we are casual people on the beach. We are casual. Stay with me. Casual. And Piper was just like my favorite. She goes, listen, I'm not deaf to all the murmurs. I was like, one, what does that mean? But two, she came in clearly being like, I don't care what anyone thinks. I got here. I gave you the date. My job is done. That was Piper's side of it. She was like, we're on the date. It's done. That was Piper's side of it. She was like, we're on the date. It's done.

We in this together now. And Brendan was like, there's still another part of this. We have to do to sell it. And Piper was like, but do you want to talk about how many followers I have? Like what is going on, man?

And that's the thing is I get Brendan and Piper have hung out several times, obviously. And I am shocked that Brendan doesn't know this about piper yet we know this from matt james's season you know i you know producers know these people like obviously i have relationships so i hear about people's personalities out to the show and piper doesn't seem piper is a very earnest person when she when matt rejected her she she doesn't seem like and that's not like she she's very literal right and yeah and so why brendan didn't know that's like why didn't they discuss like what's so fascinating is that piper when brendan's trying to like talk to piper in

code and piper's like whoa like, like to your point, Allie, she was like, what the, like, no, I don't, what, what is this?

You know, she's trying to keep it real, I guess to her credit, she's not thinking, you know, two steps ahead. And then what was so fascinating. And I,

I, and I haven't asked the producers about it because I have, I, I have to wonder if even they were shocked and surprised. Like I sometimes there's always these moments where like and I always tell people like, listen, they're great at creating fixed situations. And they have ideas of guesses of how they hope things play out. But they don't know. And once in a while while even they are truly

blown away by what happens and i gotta guess that they were also blown away because piper was kind of like wait what the fuck to brendan i like bro we've been like we're we're we're basically boyfriend and girlfriend and yeah and then brendan was forced to basically have like a real life conversation with his girlfriend or or he like he had to decide either to like tell his girlfriend that they're not really boyfriend and girlfriend or on camera totally reveal the whole plan can give away the whole plan to piper and it's just like did he not think that america would figure out what he was saying when he said things had to be done and certain for me to be here and and i've been like saying this in every episode this season

brendan made a point where he goes had i told people i knew you were coming and that i was here for you i wouldn't have been home. They would have sent me home. Yeah. And my response to Brennan is that is exactly what you should have done. And you should have absolutely risked going home because even then, so what? You can still be with your girlfriend or whatever. And you wouldn't have to screw over or hurt an innocent person like natasha

and you would have they probably would have figured a way to keep you around because you know these these fan favorites come in with such hubris and confidence by their followers and their fan favorites like instead of coming down cocky and saying things like yeah you know i don't want to sound cocky but a bunch of the women liked me come down with uh listen like i'm they're probably gonna keep me around and don't say this but just know have confidence in the fact that like there's a there's a fighting chance it is a tv show they'll figure it out but i'm like the only advice i've ever given to anyone who goes on paradise when they call me up is don't lie and don't lie to anyone yeah don't lie to

don't lie on camera don't lie to producers the truth will always protect you and it just shocked me that Brandon just chose to like just what's the worst that could happen if you go home and Piper shows up you know what probably would have happened brendan might have even left the beach and then piper would have showed up and been like well where's brendan and they would have figured out a way to like have like have piper like then come back chase down like like whatever they would have figured it out and just trust that process and the fact that they were so because if you're if you're so convinced that being on tv will work you gotta trust that tv will work it for you yes and they and he put all his trust in piper to work it for him and she was not prepared for that because like you said she was like my

boyfriend is suddenly saying that we don't know each other, that we don't like each other. And she freaked out and forced everything to come out. And now he's having to be like, well, I did some stuff. I got to let you know that I did some stuff. But and then by the end of it, they're like twirling their evil mustaches being like, ha ha ha. We we're everyone's going to hate us and it doesn't matter. And it's like, yo, what's the what's the upside? My question is, like, really, what is the upside?

If you want to get followers, get sponsorships, all this stuff. I'm not I don't know that world. I'm I'm like, I don't even have my blue check on Twitter. So I don't even know. But it's like, wait, you don't like, I don't have a blue check. That's what a Twitter. I'm like, I have, I have an Emmy nomination and no blue check. This is, we're keeping it real. But I was like, how are, what's the upside? What are you getting that is worth risking your entire reputation when they show all this?

Because they're going to edit all of this in. Like, did they think they were going to edit the moments where they're talking about what they had to do out? Like, I don't understand the plan beyond step three. You're absolutely right. And I will tell you, as someone who does know this world, there is no upside. Because the number of followers you have is not the only barometer for what your followers mean. So especially in Bachelor World where it's highly competitive and they're introducing 60 to 90 new bachelor nation people every year and the amount of people who are disappointed with your experience relative to like the followers and all that is you know for the

people who are lucky enough and incredibly blessed and fortunate to get any type of brand deal is few and far between relative to like how many people come on and so like yeah yeah brendan has a nice follower count but after this week what is what is teeth whitening central are they whatever like whatever i don't know whatever are they gonna hire brendan or are they gonna hire all the other people available to them in bachelor nation with the similar followers who didn't they basically rendered their followers useless there's this whole count out there they evaporated any goodwill they had coming in and i think both of them had a lot of goodwill coming in so much good and and it's like okay without the goodwill you're like you said like

without the goodwill your followers mean nothing if the perception of you is you're a liar why does anybody want to work with you like because they because not even they can hire another bachelor person they can go hire another model like how many aspiring models are there out in the world that would love to go be a brand partner for, you know, Fashion Nova baby or something like who even cares about you? Who cares? Who cares? Like y'all don't y'all don't you didn't think this through. Again, like I'm as someone who like it's sometimes I do have a hard time watching this or the people and the the bachelor tropes and the. You know, again, the the the evil, the plan that Brandon and Piper had, like I don't have a problem with the crime, I have a problem with the execution. And again, and we talked, we covered the Natasha of it all.

And that's the big the big problem but like it's it's it's just interesting bachelor nation but like bachelor nation we all like they all know everyone's there for followers they don't want you to make it so obvious they don't want you to throw it down their throat and in their face and i guess there's a fine line because like i i do like it when people own who they are and they're just freaking honest about like their intentions and i i do wonder if they would have gotten less it i really i do believe it was at the very end of the episode brendan's comments and conversations with Tasha that really sealed their fate because. Oh, yeah, it was the zero prospects. What else were you going to do? I think that I think if you just owned up to it and like, listen, I'm sorry, I didn't know how to

stay around. I'm and I think the main issue is day one on the beach when the rumor showed up. Are you dating Piper? He should have said, yes, we're dating. Yes, I've dated her. And I hope she shows up. But if she doesn't, I'm all in on you. If she does, I got to explore that. Yeah.

A dot. He should have said that. And all of this would be understandable and would have made sense. And it's just setting the expectations setting the the boundaries like if she doesn't show up or if piper's interested in somebody else i'm all in on you natasha or whoever he decided to scam and if she doesn't show up if she does show up i'm gonna go try and make that work because that's happened before and everyone is cool with that framing it was the i yeah i've never met i've

done that i literally did that on on paradise yes and i was very like i was up front with everybody and i was like oh i send me home week two the women had the roses and i went in the rose ceremony having no idea where i was getting my rose and I was like I might be going home tonight I'm pretty sure they'll figure it out I trusted the process but I was like I could be wrong no one guaranteed me anything no one promised anything and I was the last rose called and my friend Haley gave me the rose and you know I was like all right cool but I just was not going to lie I just was like don't lie and i just i don't understand i just like i don't understand why yeah which i also think is like again the beauty of the fuck boy they know when

to lie and they know when to make the truth sound interesting if the truth is hurtful and i don't think any of these guys that are trying to pull these scams are deft enough and have the gift gab enough to make. I'm going to tell you this awful thing that I'm about to do, and I'm going to make it sound like it was your idea. Like none of them are able to do that. And like Brendan and Natasha could have sat down and been like, I'm interested in these people. I'm in these people. We don't see what goes on between us.

But like he never made the worst option sound interesting. Yeah. And that's the that's what telling the truth is. Last night, Brendan and Piper doubled down on social media. Like we mentioned, I'm glad Brendan owned it. Right. And then we talked about Piper saying that. And I got to believe and it must be true because I think they knew they're going to get some heat. I don't think they fully appreciated because they

clearly just, when they were sitting on the cabana talking, mic'd up. And like, so just to provide some, like when you're there, there's times where you're having a chat and there are cameras surrounding you. Like you see the cameras, like, you know, you're being filmed. And there's plenty of other times where like, they're just kind of around and they're not there. There's so many things going on and it is incredibly easy to just to forget, but they just completely decided to be like, nah, there's, they're probably filming something else. And yeah, I'm pretty sure Brendan

was having a conversation with a producer because you only saw Brendan. And he said, and when Brendan said the whole lack of prospect, I was shocked. I was like, you're really going there? That's your move? Like, I don't even stand stand under even if you felt that way why say it but also why would you say say that there's clearly a it doesn't even make sense

there's clearly a bunch of guys on the beach many of which like what is like how is what is james doing there in a sense that like you know aaron like he's he's not in any real relationship. Like there's so many available people on the beach like these like the I don't get it. You know? Yeah. It's also like that is so revealing of where he was coming from that I think that's the thing that is the worst crime. I think that's the thing that is the worst crime because it is again, it's that she's stupid that, you know, you pulled that you're so superior and that she should be grateful for you. And again, it plays into those things of like Natasha's 33, which like in the in this universe is like decrepit and ancient and she you know like i don't think i don't know who she likes to date or what type of person she likes to date but like having someone say that about

a dark-skinned black woman who's over the age of 30 which is like two venn diagrams that interact it's like that reveals how you view other people in a way that like there's no there's no goodwill coming from me at all after that because it is just such a transactional way to view people and if you can't if you can't provide anything if you can't get anything going then you're not worth my empathy or my attention yeah and clearly Natasha was being very kind and was being very understanding and had a lot of empathy for Brendan she was so patient so patient so patient and to say that about somebody that was kind to you and empathetic to you even if you were leading them on is like just true you know they talk about like trash bag behavior. That's the trash bag behavior.

Yeah. And it's such an awful and it's basically saying this woman isn't attractive enough. So why should I think about what happens to her next is like what is baked into that kind of thinking. And it's like if you're 31 going after a 23 year old looking at the women your own age being like nobody's interested in them so why should i care she should be grateful it's like okay that's how you think about women like there's no that's how you think about women sir i agree with everything you just said in the conversation that brendan had with with natasha uh and we've talked about this in the past and this was all just cruel, horrible,

and he definitely lacked any empathy, which was really highly disappointing. And then the comment about selective hearing, Brendan told Natasha, which is also just like a dick thing to say. And for him to be like, I don't understand the relevance of this question. Like, Sarah, are you doing an objection in court?

You are not a lawyer. You need to walk it back. Also, this is where I love Natasha because she owned him in this conversation. I'll tell you the relevancy because you going to Boston on your own, Piper, probably means you hooked up. And that's what Natasha – She walked him to it yeah and and the second he realized he was like oh i don't see the relevance yeah oh i love that she just like oh so she went there oh was she alone yes like piper i mean natasha is like oh y'all hooked up like i know

you hooked up so you hooked up with a girl and then came down here or girls or whatever labels you guys want to call it or not that's that's i'm i'm assuming that's what like that's what she was getting at and and rightfully so those are great questions like walk through and totally own brendan and when she was asking piper too she was like she didn't say he told me you met two months ago when did you meet she just said when did you meet and she said oh a month two months ago. When did you meet? She just said, when did you meet? And she said, oh, a month, two months ago. And she says, oh, he said a month ago.

Now Piper can't walk it back. How many times have you hung out? Ten times. Oh, that's interesting. He told me twice. And again, Piper was not sort of smart enough or with it enough to like see what was happening and be like oh what did brendan say or i don't remember i don't have a number on it she just was like we met 10 times 10 times is a lot of times uh i got people like i got friends that i don't see 10 times a year like that's a lot of time also and then and then brandon was just like well i didn't i don't remember saying two i know yeah

you're right you didn't say two you said a couple times don't remember saying two. Yeah, you're right. You didn't say two. You said a couple times. And a couple is two. A few, if you had, you said a few. Maybe you could have tried to convince us. I have this argument all the time. A couple is two, maybe three.

A few is definitely like three to five. You said a couple. You said a couple. That's down there. That's two. Yeah. So do we even want to talk about like it's not it's it's horrible it's terrible it's also not gaslighting and i'm not

saying that there's zero defense here brandon was terrible but we just need to stop misdiagnosing what gaslighting some someone can lie and someone can lie to you and have it not be gaslighting because he wasn't saying to Natasha, you know, throughout the whole conversation, the thing that you think is not true. He said, the thing that I said, you didn't like your misunderstanding, which is different than the thing that you believe isn't true. Which is different than the thing that you believe isn't true. And it's very clear that Brendan had to tell himself certain things to allow himself to do this. Yes.

And Natasha presenting the truth to him contradicted what he had to tell himself. It was. And so I don't. It's manipulative. It's deceitful. It's cruel. He's a liar. He is a liar. Yeah.

I don't I don't know if he was gaslighting her like there might have been. But just saying to someone, well, I don't think, you know, you gives the opposition opportunity to be like, well, he was, you know, like, you know, so like he was terrible. Terrible. Brendan is is blaming his bad memory, not Natasha's. Yeah. Is what I think sort of the line is there. He's saying, well, I don't remember. And it's still totally dickish. Can we talk about the microphone scratch

yeah yeah what this to me i was like comic it's a common i need to know what this is i've never seen it have never been worn a puka shell necklace with a microphone in it but it is a common thing people on the show do that if they if they tap their mic like this it will like you won't be able to pick up the audio the problem is like brennan like scratches it once and then and then and then says and then says it's like it doesn't turn off your mic bro scratching it like he got like you have to you have to constantly go like this and talk you know like so he's trying he's trying to ruin the audio yeah i can't use it yeah okay you know it's like on real on real housewives when they yell bravo when denise

when denise yells andy cohen bravo to turn up okay but yeah i because to me i was like okay he's i thought he was trying to see if it was on or if he was trying to like. No, he was trying to turn it around. Further more bad execution on Brandon's part. Like it's just he scratched it once and then told his story. No, Brandon, you have to go like this. These are the bank robbers that are getting locked in the vault. Yes. And then have to call someone to let them out.

Yeah. Even the camera angle was weird i wonder if he knows that the cameras were even on them because they were like shooting through that leaf and for anyone and i saw a couple out there on twitter anyone who wants to try to defend piper and brennan by saying they were set up by producers it doesn't work if the fbi puts up a sting operation and and the robbers come in crack open the bank and there's no money there they still go to jail you know like they can't yeah you can't be entrapped into something you were going to do exactly if they convince you to do something you were never gonna do sure but if But they wanted to be in paradise together. They wanted to be whatever followers.

And after Brendan articulated this to Piper, she literally thanked him. Yes, she was glad Brendan did what he had to do so they could be there. Yeah, I think Piper was thinking, he's going to get all the asshole comments and I'm going to be like the girl that he did all this for. Yeah.

And I'm not going to get any of the bad, the heat, which is, again, bonkers. Yeah. But that was his comment to her. He's like, I'm the one. I wrote it down. It was the exact comment. like, I'm the one I had wrote it down. It was the exact comment. Like I'm the one who's sitting here.

Who's going to be crucified. And you're sitting here too. Oh, here it is. People are coming from my existence and you're talking about Instagram. That's what he said to her. Yeah. And then they both laughed about it.

It was weird. And then like Piper made a, I think a statement on Instagram this morning and talking about how it's just a TV show. And I don't take it seriously. And honestly, everything she said, I don't have a problem with. It is in a lot of ways true, but she's missing the point. And so is Brendan after the fact is just apologize to Natasha.

Just show empathy to Natasha. I don't give a fuck about the show. I don't care about your followers. I don't care that you got a free vacation. It's not bothering me. Just apologize to the one person who you hurt for real because that's real natasha's feelings are real the show might be fake it might be edited like yeah a lot of your peers are also pulling the same bullshit in terms of showing up for tv

but you hurt someone it's clear that she was hurt and you're just completely dismissing it so like i you know just put out an apology to natasha and then move on yeah like yeah so we get into episode two um oh more chaos more chaos really liked titus uh i i liked what he brought as a new host um almost as shakespearean he's like doing all the things and i am at pentameter i was like this is a real treat yeah uh half the cast was it was just kind of above their pay grade of of like no i i i thought it was great abigail like whispering to people he's on unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt it's on Netflix like I loved that that was great I love

the plan I mean from you know props to producers for this VIP party which you know wasn't so VIP it was kind of sad looking but whatever it was a high school dance it was a cocktail night at your conference in Buffalo.

Like it was doing what it needed to do. They threw a high school dance. Total perfect. But it is so like it's such a setup. Again, it's just another sting operation that these people who are currently committing a crime don't know how to navigate not how to get caught yeah yeah and so they show up and then here we have the chris drama of it all we're jumping ahead and we'll break down the chris but like did you struggle the whole time and you know for those of you listening you know we we were very familiar with twitter's reaction

on monday night's episode we're recording this tuesday morning so we don't know how twitter's going to react to tuesday's episode but as as bad as chris was and as insincere as he was to jessenia i just didn't under and i and as much i loved how riley and jo Joe broke it down. Went after him. Ran him out of town. But where was that energy for Piper and Brendan? It just, it seemed. Here's my thought. Part of my theory is that Chris took Yesenia from Ivan,

a couple that everybody liked. So it was not just a crime against Yesenia. It was a crime against Ivan. And as we all know from American history, a crime is not serious unless it also happens to a man. And so they had to like, it was like justice for this couple was, I think, fueling it. And because Yesen I could also have that moment of like, I left Ivan. I left something that I, that was good for this guy, Chris to add another layer of upsetness.

And Natasha is a, in their minds, a single person. You know what I mean? I think that's, I wonder if that's part of it, that the people that like Ivan or that liked them together can kind of like you took just sitting away from Ivan for false

pretenses rather than you just harmed a person and that's bad I think you're absolutely right I also not literally that you're talking I'm having another thought none of the cast also were privy to these conversations that piper and brendan were having i'm assuming like myself like watching it late last night like you forget that like some you know when early in the episode when damon when kendall showed up and she's like oh i wish i could be a fly on the wall cut to them talking we get to be the fly on the on the wall right and they don't so i think part of it too is they didn't get to see that and they saw chris making out they saw chris do all of this they didn't see them uh they didn't see brendan

and piper uh talk about their plan they didn't see brandon say and do those shitty things to natasha i'm pretty sure brandon made the comments about prospects to a producer because we only saw brandon and we didn't see who he was talking to like they would have showed who he was talking to if it was a cast member uh right but natasha did tell ivan she said this is your boy you're gonna ride for your boy oh she did oh i missed that yeah she called she said she called she said to ivan because ivan was like oh maybe you know i'm sorry this happened like i forget what he said but she was like that's your boy you're gonna stand up for him oh yeah you make yeah that's a good point and so that there is and that's where people

so she's telling i don't know if she's telling people everything which i would understand if she was like i'm not gonna say everything that he said or everything that i'm noticing but she has told people they i think people know what's up yeah also and this is where you can criticize the the cat you know the noah's or the rise of the Joe's or whatever. They all clearly like Brendan and they don't give a fuck about Chris. They don't know Chris. Joe is like who the fuck are you? I don't even know you.

We gave you a shot. You burned a bridge like you're not part of it's all high school, right? We you're you know, Chris was like the guy who transferred from a different school out of town and we're like, all right, we'll give you a shot. And he like on day to burned a bridge yeah and so i i think part of that lack of energy is coming from they're far more reluctant to call out as natasha said their boy than some guy they don't give a fuck about it's also like pipers and serena are really close and you look at how serena p and joe are like kind of the king and queen of paradise. Yeah.

Yeah. You're right. There is a little bit. And like Serena is the one who tells Piper like, yeah, you're going to get so much airtime. Like your name came up so much before you. So it's also like both of that. Both participants in this couple are like have the social standing within this group of people to not be held accountable in the same way that Chris is. 100 percent.

And social standing on that beach absolutely matters. It influences so many decisions. And it's something that the show totally takes advantage of and uses against the cast people. That all being said, let's break down the Chris. And how do you pronounce her name? Because it's not Alayah. It's not Alanna. It do you pronounce her name because it's not alaya it's alana alana it's alana no it's not alana it's alana it's alana flinch your jaw to say it as she was saying it i went atlanta without the t yes as she was i heard her say it and i was like

that okay helpful that can be my way helpful okay so yes they have the vip party she's she sews up i mean her comp hot ursula she like from the little mermaid yeah she's hot person ursula hot person ursula yes the yes when ursula gets goes on land yes i mean it's like she she plays the role of the temptress so well. I mean, she's a beautiful woman. She comes in and she even, like just the way she talks and carries herself is very seductive. And you can tell that they both, and this is sort of jumping ahead, but they both are like,

let's do the bachelor thing. Yeah. And let's say the bachelor words. And they're very much like, we gonna be on a journey and it's like bitch calm down nobody's here for you like that and that's why the show will often bring on your people who go on home one night one or night two chris is unique uh character because as we mentioned last week the producers knew that he inundated himself with a bunch of other cast people in san diego and was forming these relationships and they were hopeful this drama that you know these friendships or these relationships that chris was inserting himself in would pan out and it obviously did you know it's interesting that like because last week you know the internet

was a buzz about the potential relationship that jessenia and chris had before the show and and then and then jessenia came out in this like literally admitted it on the show but she was already the victim of Chris and Alana. You got it. You got it, buddy. That she was like, yeah. She talked about how they knew each other. And it was this kind of –

like how many relationships was Chris in with Bachelor women? And you're right. It's so funny that they will cast people because they know that the people who haven't really been through the process who had a cup of coffee on the show don't really know the show and they are so prone to like the trope the all the tropes and and playing into the role and not being real and it's like i wonder if they think they're like oh that must have been the reason i went home i didn didn't like play the game. I didn't use the right language. So now I'm going to like really give them the love story that they want.

And it's like, we don't believe this is a love story between you and Alana. Like, this is not y'all two people and you want a vacation and you want to fuck somewhere where you can see the ocean. Like, that's it. And I'm like nobody nobody think and that's sort of like my it's like don't pretend you're in love don't pretend you're like i just gotta see where the spark goes like we don't buy it and everyone can like smell the bullshit on you and that doesn't get you don't have you don't have any leeway because we're already like who are you what are you doing you jumped on the most popular person here so now

we're like are you clout chasing are you trying to get with the most popular girl and then you come in with all this when you're trying to defend yourself all this nonsense when when he's talking to joe and riley he's like it was undeniable that there was a spark that's not how humans talk like no one has my boyfriend has never talked to me about the spark that we have undeniable the undeniable spark he's like i don't know your butt's nice like you're really funny and i care about you like but he's never like we have an undeniable spark like that's not totally what happened it's always it's fascinating because it's like the people who go out and get sent home early like

i said they don't know much about the show and it's a combination of being fans reading a bunch of blogs on the internet thinking it's bullshit but still wanting to be a part of it and yeah they are the see they seem to be incapable of being authentic like they they are often like and that's what that's why they get on the show because the producers bank on the fact that they're not there for the right reasons literally and and again it's i think it's also this idea of like for someone like chris i don't i don't know no one knows him but like before this i don't know if he's been getting a lot of girls or if he's been really popular or whatever but he's suddenly in a

situation where he can like be really popular and get with a lot of people and what you do in that moment reveals like how you think about things so the fact that when he wanted to go talk to Alana he said he literally said to Yesenia BRB and tapped her on the shoulder and like ran away, ran away, ran and ran. It's like, no, he just ran away, BRB and like ran away. But to be if you're if there's someone else there that you're interested in and you want to talk to the mature, reasonable thing that everyone can respect is to say to the other person, hey, I'm going to go talk to Atlanta.

She's going to pull me for a second. You know, I'll be back. And not to say BRB and run before Justinia like has time to turn her head. But if you're you know, if this is your if you get to be a cool guy, if you get to be a little scamp for a second, you can start just doing weird shit. And it clearly that was what was going on with Chris. if you get to be a little scamp for a second you're gonna start just doing weird shit and it clearly that was what was going on with chris when the going gets tough that's when you show who you really are or that's when you show what your relationship's made of etc etc and he had no no guilt when he was with alana no guilt on the date no turmoil but he could he wanted to fake it

in front of everybody else and it's like when he was making out with her when whatever Disney Channel original princess was singing at that party, that's Chris. Like that's Chris. Olivia Holt. Like that's Chris. When he was just fully making out with her on the dance floor,

doesn't care what anybody else thinks. It's like, cool, you think you're a big guy because you got to kiss two girls in one day in front of like in front of yeah in front of josenia and that's the thing and i absolutely love that riley and like uh i like you know uh riley clearly wasn't he he they showed glimpses of him but he was just there he wasn't pursuing relationships he was observing and i loved it because he was absolutely right like he called out chris for that bullshit which was giving zero fucks about like if you want to make out with two girls fine like you know riley probably

was like i've done that whatever maybe it wasn't my best moment but like it was this complete lack of disregard again for someone's feelings it's you know very similar to the brendan and and how we treated atasha it was like just try to be a gentleman try to try to show that you're giving a shit about someone's feelings and thinking that everybody else gonna ride for him that's the other like chris doesn't have enough allies on the beach if if you if you're a guy and you're gonna be like i'm gonna go to the bar and i'm gonna make out with a bunch of people and i'm gonna make out with two girls that are friends or whatever it's because you know you're like all my guy friends that are with me

aren't gonna tell my girlfriend at home because you ride or die with them i don't know if that's the best thing but you got you you know your boy's gonna ride with you you know that when your girlfriend calls us hey was so-and-so with you it'd be like yes and he's in fact he's here right now but chris doesn't have anybody to do that for him so when he got back to the resort everybody was like whoa you made out with alina right in front of jessenia that sucked yeah that was bad you shouldn't have done that and he was expecting everybody to hype him up or at least keep their mouth shut it's like we know why would i i remember i was working a job and somebody asked uh my co-worker to do something like vaguely illegal so that they could like get a weird disc it was some weird like discount thing and my co-worker

just looked this customer in the eye and said ma'am who are you that i should lose my job for you and she stared at this woman's face and the woman was like what and she goes i'm asking you why are you so important to me that i should lose my job for you and that was what everybody said to chris when he got back to the resort he said who are you that we should all ruin our friendships that we should ruin our relationship with Yesenia because you made out with this woman that we don't know? Who are you that I should do this for you? Totally. And just like I love how Riley called out the moping.

It's just like, yeah, people mope on the beach, but it's because they're getting broken up with. why Chris thought that he could just swerve in, make out with Alana and, and then come back as if like, he's the victim. Like what, what was that? I don't like, I mean,

if you, if you want to feel, he's not a good enough, he's not a good enough actor and he's not a good enough liar. It's like, if you can't do one of those things, you're not getting away with it. He's not,

he's neither of those things. He's also like reading the wrong playbook. If you want to wake up and feel bad about what you did, then just be like, I wouldn't even have believed him had Chris woke up and said, hey, I'm sorry for what I did. It was wrong. Because I would have been like, you're an adult man. How did you not know that was wrong? And that have been like you're an adult man like how did you not know that was wrong so and that wasn't one and that wasn't one slip up that was a prolonged activity

in one night yeah exactly all night long and and then that you know and then the next day he's moping but also says yes to the date and he like all he goes to the group and said y'all might be mad at me doesn't talk to just so funny and he was like i'm gonna have to have an uncomfortable conversation attention everyone i would like to say something and then leave not talk to just any i and i gotta i just want to get props to just any uh like i i really had no opinion on just any uh she's obviously striking she's beautiful like You know she didn't have a relation with Matt James in his season All that much like whatever

But I really loved Like how she handled The whole situation I love that she Removed herself I love She said a line when she got back to the beach She said And I'm only pointing this out because Even Natasha Was guilty of this now granted we've all got back to the beach she said and i and i'm only pointing this out because even even natasha was

guilty of this now granted we've all been there because we've all liked someone and we look back and thought oh i was dumb like i i was foolish because i liked him but jessenia said i don't i he's showing me how he feels i don't need to wait around to talk to him he is showing me with his actions and I love that just any uh called that out and and she's like ah I see I got to see what I got to see I'm good now granted what Chris did was way more in the face than what Brendan was a far more like you know trying to be Machiavellian about it. But nevertheless, I just want to give props to Yesenia for absolutely like just owning it, not pouting. Just, you know, she really showed her like strength and independence. And I really, really quite like her this episode.

And kept shutting him down. Yeah. And being like, there's no discussion here. There's nothing for us to talk about. Neither of us owe each other anything because of what you did like she very she laid it out super clearly of like this is because of what you did so now i'm done and i'm sorry you don't get to have a problem with that which is exactly the way that you should handle it totally like if for someone you're not seriously dating not in love with whatever just be like cool you made

a choice i also get to make a choice and my choice is you don't get access to me anymore as a person yeah which is like that's the punishment that you don't i'm a good person you don't have access to me as a person anymore absolutely so uh just sending it with the the big w uh this episode i also want to just point out to the audience is like, you know, for people when you have, we talk about relationships on this show and some real world takeaway here. We always get a ton of questions and we, you've talked to your friends and you've, you,

and when, when, when you're getting broken up with or whatever, or someone does something and, and people will always say, well, why do they, why do they call me amazing?

Why do they, why do they, why do they call me amazing? Why do they, why do they, why do they say like throughout these two episodes, you saw a bunch of guys, Kenny, uh, Brandon, Chris go up to all these women and say things like, I think you're a great person. I think you're amazing. I've enjoyed my time with you all while attempting to break up with them. And we saw it as like total bullshit and it's so obvious as a viewer so in real life when you are being complimented just see that's what that's what it is like it doesn't mean they're and and again props to jessenia for like not even hearing it uh she didn't let her insecurity or her ego hear the compliment that is often what we do.

Like we're hurting and our ego doesn't want to feel bad. So like, wait, you have something nice to say about me? Oh, I'll listen. And Yesenia wanted none of that. And that takes a level of maturity that I think we often take for granted. Yeah. And I think it was clear. It was helpful that what he did, there was no ambiguity in it because, and anytime you, because I've been in the, again, I've also been the Jesenia, um, where you're like, if there's any ambiguity in what the person did, if there's any explanation for it, then I can listen, hear the compliment that opens the door for them to start reasoning with me. And then they're not the bad person. Um, but being able to be like,

no, this is a boundary I have. This is a line I have. No, thank you. And it's like setting all those things for yourself and then checking in later being like, and I think on these shows, on the bachelor in particular words get so much weight because you don't have as many relationship actions available. When you're in a relationship and you're dating someone, you can pick them up from the airport. You can help take their dog somewhere. But here, all you have is words. So you got to really set the boundary and here are the actions that are unacceptable. And it doesn't matter what words come with them if the action is present i will not be so we have a bunch of little minor storylines to cover before we wrap it up that just aren't as um serious as these two main ones but uh becca and thomas you got aaron and tammy and this whole triangle i i you know it the The Tammy of it all is interesting because I really like that she said to Thomas, listen, at the end of the day, and it takes some guts to tell someone, I want you to like me. So do what you want to do because of course, I would rather have you not go on this date. I'd rather want you to not explore it but like you do and

it's paradise so whatever and she she almost tries to be a little too cool right because she yeah you you almost wanted her to just be like but i do like like i i want you to stay she you know it's like and it's it's tough like i don't fault her at all that's the human side of it yeah it's that there's such a like desire to not be vulnerable and telling someone that you like them and you don't want them to go on a date is a very vulnerable thing because that gives them the opportunity to be like no or well i want to go date and so it's the like it you know like it's like a vulnerability hangover where she's like, oh, I was too vulnerable or I should have been vulnerable and I wasn't. And you want her to be you want to tell so many of these people on this dating show, in our lives, whatever. It's like being vulnerable is going to

get you the thing that you want, even in the moment it feels bad and like projecting the image of cool and strength and whatever that is not going to get you what you want, because that is just hiding the vulnerability underneath. And again, it's like you're getting hurt on two levels. If you project cool and then get hurt, you're getting hurt on the cool level. So your ego and then you get hurt on the vulnerability level of your like emotional subconscious. And it's the same thing happening with Demi and Kenny. Is she's project. She, in her mind, you know, I don't know her. I'm watching this as a text, but like in her mind,

sex is the way that she is valuable in relationships. And that's how she can prolong her contact with men. And when the sex doesn't work, that means she has to do something else. And those other things feel vulnerable and the sex maybe doesn't, or means she has to do something else and those other things feel vulnerable and the sex maybe doesn't or she's telling herself the sex doesn't and then she's getting hurt on the she's getting hurt and her on her vulnerability even when she thinks she didn't put it out there and that is like the mind fuck that's happening for right now all the women on the beach because they don't want to be vulnerable but they have to be vulnerable to get what they want. And they're just ending up getting hurt for their vulnerability anyway. So it's like, you might as well just be vulnerable and get hurt

on only one level. Why get hurt on two levels? Ellie, I'm so glad I have you on. How do you know this? And you've never been on the show. And yet it's just like, and I was talking to Tasha yesterday during the day and I was like, you look you're and she was so i'm like you gotta understand your vulnerability that's your it's your ego but trust me you did all the right things like natasha did it so well because she was willing to show us her like her hurt and her pain and we love we absolutely loved her for it her ego was a little pissed her ego was like why girl why are you showing like why but like we we love yeah i remember i was dating someone and he was like a nerdy guy but we were in like a casual sex kind of thing and he was trying to be the cool guy so he was doing all these weird fuck boy moves and i was like this

doesn't this doesn't seem like you and i was telling it to my therapist and i was like well you know but it doesn't you know he did this thing and it was kind of weird but it's just casual whatever and my therapist just went well it sounds like he doesn't care a lot about you and i was like oh my god i've been doing i've been telling myself that because it's this xyz casual thing and it's fine that he does this, but if he doesn't care about me, even in this casual thing, I'm still getting hurt.

I'm still being hurt. And it's like, I'd rather just, it's like, do I want to eat McDonald's for a week and feel bad at the end of the week or eat like good, delicious food that takes longer to prepare and cost more money? It's like,

I'm going to feel better at the end of that week. Even though I'm being fed in both situations. So it's just that thing of like, I might as well just go for the person that I like and the person that treats me well, even if it's a little harder. I'm still getting hurt. And that was the realization. My therapist is very calmly going, oh, well, it doesn't sound like he cares about you at all yeah and and that's that's kenny and demi like it's clear that kenny kenny does not like demi he's not into demi uh she's a fun hang he definitely went into his fuck boyness with demi and instead of just being demi let her massive ego. And I say that as a friend, like she's great.

She's wonderful. But at her worst, she lets her massive ego take over and she will own that. Like Demi will own her mistakes. But yeah, she let her pride and her massive ego instead of just like seeing for what it is, like you said, she got petty. She got mean with Mari. She started just, yeah. I mean, that is not the way I want to see my friends handle rejection. Yeah. And because then you're hurt on the like when she kept going, but I'm so fun. I'm so fun.

Aren't I playful? It's like I thought I gave you the thing that men are supposed to want and I'm hurting. And the same with Tammy being like, I told him to go on the date, but why am I hurting? It's like, if you give someone the thing that you think they want, they're the only one that's happy. Yeah. Anytime you have to convince someone, guy or girl, and you're starting to list off your qualifications it's over like they don't you do you you can't stump for yourself in a relationship that's this is not how it works and in the to wrap up the aaron tammy becca thomas aaron being like this is what tammy oh thank you i was like thank you sir aaron sucks relax relax i it's very clear he he has a very narrow view of what

you know yes what he what his women should do thank you I I heard he heard that here that's not these hoes ain't loyal and he was like finally someone said it like get out of here thank you I I just you know Aaron's been this like fan favorite and he was this been the part of the drama on katie season and he's been like the union leader to like rally the troops and like whatever i wasn't a fan of that kind of shtick but like you know people like the drama and he's a good looking guy but yeah he's he's been he i think he's incredibly emotionally immature. And these past three episodes have truly shown this. And you're right. When he gets hurt, he gets mean.

And he loses all self-awareness and perspective and accountability for his own actions. And Thomas is his, like, you know it has an excuse and tammy and there is no just like looking at like himself when and when he finds that and how he wants to talk about women is it's like that's but that's dangerous that's bad he's been he's been slut shaming two two weeks in a row for like yeah what you you're on a fucking date bro you're on a fucking date with a runway model like a runway model shows up ask you out you don't even hesitate to say yes you what more do you want what more do you want and while you are on a date, the woman who you barely have any relationship with gets a date card, asks out your, as he says, nemesis. Mortal enemy.

Like adult men should just not have mortal enemies and nemesises. If you have a mortal enemy and you're over the age of five or under the age of 70, you did it wrong. Yep. Thank you. You did it wrong yep thank you you did it wrong thank you and yeah and then he he finds out that tammy goes out and and this essentially slut shames her i don't i don't but yeah he he finds out that thomas went out with becca yeah and that somehow just deserts for tammy a person who is not involved. At all. Yeah.

Like, oh, oh, the girl I'm not interested in anymore that I put on the sidelines also got her feelings hurt. And he got satisfaction out of that. And like, you know, like you, I think the overall theme that you've talked about, I agree with you is, you know, showing what people really show you. And, and if you, you know, when that, when things don't go well for them, like where their priorities lie and, and their lack of empathy or, or their joy, they get out of other people's pain is so telling. And like thomas is is that i mean and yeah like dude dude move on move on dude a a like six foot tall runway model wants to like make out with you on a horse like you won the breakup move on it's like and then like finally with the Thomas of it all, I've, I've, I've figured out Thomas cause I've always had this complicated view of him because I don't think he's this narcissist.

I mean, I don't know him, so I can't certainly call him a narcissist or whatever. And he's definitely a full of shit guy. If Thomas would simply, I think, I think, I think I have an easy note and fix for Thomas if he's listening. Just stop using words like always, every. Stop using words that are definitive. Like he goes on a date with Becca and he's like, I only wanted to go on a date with you. I always had a crush on you and stuff like that. Just be like, hey, man.

I was really excited when you asked me. Like, you know, he oversells everything with these absolute phrases that he doesn't need to say because there's no there's no specifics there's no specificity in anything he says like I'm looking back over what he said and he's like it's okay to have angst and I don't want to live a life with what if sitting on the table it's like cool cool. That means nothing. Like that's on a throw pillow at a TJ Maxx. Like, that's not a thing you say to a person to get to know them.

And so, but it is that like, he's that's that bullshit meter that I'm going to speak in absolutes and all these things. Cause there's just no, and you know, again, I don't know him,

but it feels like there's no depth there that if he had you'd want him to come out with so that you could understand him and i think that's i think all these people sort of want to understand him but the thing that he's giving is just these shallow it's a lack of maturity uh probably a combination of him being gorgeous and six six and getting away with it like most people has simply nodded and said yes to him his whole life. And maybe this will be an experience where, you know, where I give like, it's a little things where I give Thomas credit where like even the intro where Aaron's kicking the ball of a football,

that's like they stole that from Josh and me on Paradise. So Thomas does have some stuff. Thomas has apologized. of a football that's like they stole that from josh and me on paradise and like so thomas does have some stuff thomas has apologized he's he's he has shown some self-deprecating humor so i do believe that thomas has a chance to mature because clearly he has shown his immaturity and the fact that he hasn't done that so like i like to think there is hope for thomas to say you know what i don't need to be full of shit. I don't need to bullshit people. And I think it's again, it's like this is just my buzzword for the day. But like it's that vulnerability of like if he says something specific, his whole life, people have liked him because he's hot and sick, sick, like that opens a lot of doors often to

nightclubs. But it's like if if for the first time in his life he says a real thing about himself or what he believes in the world he says something with specifics and people like react poorly it's like oh no i've like revealed something about myself and people don't like it it's easier for me to just be platitudes guy and speak in generic vagaries rather than actually demonstrating or developing a deeper personality. Yeah. Being hot is a curse, honestly. Well, what it is, is it robs so many of our greatest minds of their specificity and vulnerability. It is a superpower that is hard to maintain and control and can work against you if you don't respect it yeah that is why i choose to stay fat and cute way less expectations amen girl

uh ally it has really been an absolute pleasure uh thank you so much for for gracing gracing gracing thanks for coming on um you did definitely did not disappoint uh thank you so much for gracing. Thanks for coming on. You definitely did not disappoint. Thank you so much for having me. This is a treat. Please come back again. We have Michelle's season coming up. We have Bachelor stuff. There will always be content.

So please come back. Please let the people know where we can find you, follow you, read your other recaps and all the great things you're doing out there. Yeah, so you can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at WTFlankStake. You can read the Vulture recaps of The Bachelor franchise on Vulture.com. And I'm also a writer for last week tonight so you can check us out sunday nights on hbo awesome uh ali thanks so much and then next week it sounds like uh well there'll be more that maybe we'll see if the troops rally

and hold brandon and piper as accountable as they held Chris. So we will see. But I don't know. Just so much to unpack. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send in your questions at asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K for Ask Nick episodes. Subscribe, tell your friends, five-star reviews, all that fun stuff.

Make sure to follow Ali. It is absolutely a fantastic follow better than most things you see on the internet. If there is nothing else, we will see you tomorrow for the wonderful and interesting and deep Michael A. See you tomorrow. you