The Viall Files - E316 Michael Allio Tells All

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

Today we are joined by Michael Allio from Katie’s season of The Bachelorette. Michael answers all the questions that Nick and Bachelor Nation have been wanting to know. Nick not only gets Michael thoughts on his season and the events that transpired during and after his departure, but he also spends time hearing Michael’s story. They dig into what Michael’s life was like before the show, how he made it through his wife’s passing, how fatherhood changed him, and how much say his son has on girlfriends!  We find out if Michael has been having conversations about being The Bachelor and his thoughts on other possible candidates. It’s an episode that will give you all the feels so don’t miss a minute of it.  “You find the intimacy through the struggle  don’t avoid the struggle ” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  For merch please visit www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: BetterHelp: http://www.betterhelp.com/VIALLFILES Viall Files listeners get 10% off their first month.  Noom: http://www.noom.com/VIALL to sign up for your trial.  Doordash: Download the app and enter code VIALL for 25% off and zero delivery fee on tour first order of $15 or more.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @michael_alliol4 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files i am your host nick and we have a doozy of an episode for you today. Michael, the wonderful, adorable fan favorite from Katie's season. Daddy. And zaddy. And zaddy. Michael is here to speak with us about his experience and his life, his loss, his possibility of being the next Bachelor. His thoughts on Katie, Greg, all of the above. Thomas.

There's a lot of meat in this episode so we are excited to bring that conversation to you i am joined by the wonderful team when chrissy amanda and ally how is everyone doing today i'm good i'm just like i feel like the universe is standard for men. The bar for men is in hell. I'm over it. I'm like, this is why I'm single. I just feel like people- Just men?

Yes. I'm just over it. Not to salt in the wound, Ali, I had a great first date this week. I will be heading home. Thanks. Bye. It was in Venice with this guy who's a private jet pilot, which is kind of fun. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah.

I was like, it's such a cool profession. He's done a lot of traveling, lived abroad a little bit. And so the first part of the date, classic dinner, et cetera. And then we went to a dive bar across the street. And while we're at this dive bar, we're having a great time few ipas deep and he kisses me and then these two people from like across the bar start like yelling at us like screaming at us going use protection use a condom all this stuff are they trying to be funny or they're trying to be they're trying to be funny it's just like two like drunk ass 46 year olds

like on it's a monday night they're screaming at the bar first time I give them you know a good thumbs up as you as you suggest they're still yelling so then I kind of the Boston comes out a little bit and I'm like hey you guys have a lot to say why don't you join us and they kind of like look me in the eye and I'm like no come on like join us so they they sit at our table we end up chatting with them for a while it's a crazy situation they're here for one of theirs birthday I assume they're a couple turns out they're best friends but there's a lot of sexual tension there but ended up having this like crazy night with this guy whose birthday it was on a monday and good first date all right how did how did you're gonna see this person again

yeah he's he's texting a lot i told him at the end of the day i was like i'm not i don't really want to text like i just feel like i've a lot. I don't know. I don't I don't like texting people like I like going on dates with people. I like hanging out that kind of thing. But like, I'm not trying to text you and hear about your day all the time. I think that's kind of a waste of time. He's been texting a lot. you i'm getting uh he's a bad texter i would i would disagree you you like a good texter i love a good texter but i feel like amanda's like dancing in a rainstorm and i'm in the middle of the desert so i'll just be in my corner well maybe amanda's on something because when you try to text with a guy what happens i don't have anyone to text other than you you're just telling me a story about a guy you were texting oh well that was technically snapchat messages but yeah it wasn't my idea what what did he say he he he said i knew you wanted to be my little slut and that's where it ended so and you had never met him in person nope never and it was the first day we'd even like messaged back and forth it's weird move

it's i will say and it's again no no justification i'm not justifying i'm just saying next time someone asks to snapchat message with you that's when you know they're probably trying to say some freaky shit also well didn't you you guys kind of agreed to like do some sexting a little bit we didn't like sex like it wasn't really like anything like, it wasn't anything like vivid or anything like that. There was like nothing specific about like physicality or anything. Yeah. It's not.

Yeah. I'm glad you stopped talking to me. Like I'm just confused. Like I was like finally like, you know what? This is going to be fine. He's like kind of a douche, but it's fine.

He's hot. We'll just have like some casual fun. And then this card gets whipped out i'm like my lord oh i think the key to online dating is talking about the stuff you want to talk about with people like like i think you have to go into online dating like the reason i actively enjoy online dating is because i say whatever i want to say like very take it or leave it like sometimes i'll ask very deep questions sometimes i'll ask just like very take it or leave it. Like sometimes I'll ask very deep questions. Sometimes I'll ask just like very bizarre specific questions. You don't seem to be generally worried about what they have to say in a texting.

I think people think that there's like a script you're supposed to defer to. Like you're supposed to ask like certain kinds of questions, but like those are the questions that everyone's asking. Do you like being my little? But I would also argue that I wasn't like, I don't think, I feel like I was being myself too. Like he was giving me like certain like lines and I was like, well,

what is your success rate of that working? Cause that is absolutely ridiculous. Like I was just kind of being like, I felt like I was calling him out on his BS and then that's still, you'd probably be a surprise. Little slut entered the chat. Well, the,

uh, dating continues to be hard. Amen. It's never going to be hard. Amen. It's never going to be easy. Hey, if you're tuning in to the Hear the Medical episode, as always, don't forget to send in your questions at asknickatcastmedia.com for our Ask Nick episodes. If you like relationship and dating stories, people's tragedies,

their successes, we learn a lot about love and relationships on Mondays. Be sure to tune in to that. Subscribe, rate us five stars, tell your friends. We appreciate listening. Now let's get to Michael. Michael, welcome. Thanks for having me, Nick. Really good to be here.

Yeah, nice to get this. Try to get that mic into that face. Get all up in here, huh? How have you been? Been good. It's been crazy after the show, after, you know, the show and, you know, just getting back to like normal life. I mean, I'm just, everything's kind of retreated back to where it was post-show. I mean, I always feel like there's certain

like stages of this. There's like getting ready for the show, then actually being on it. And then there's waiting for it to be aired and then living week by week and now it's like it's just relaxing okay so you feel like you're getting back to normal i do well that's good to hear yeah we have a lot to talk about i feel like i think we do ever since you left the show then you were on uh men tell all and that was kind of the last we've really heard from you. Yeah. And yet a lot of questions have been asked about a lot of things going on. Things have happened on the show that I think people would love your take on from the time that you left. Yeah. Katie and Blake getting engaged.

Let's get to know you a little bit. Yeah. How did you end up on the the show so i mean life is crazy it just kind of works in mysterious ways here and i never applied for the show wasn't even nominated um i actually had a producer or actually was a casting director reach out to me on social media. And it was crazy. They're sliding in the DMs now. They were. I mean, everywhere. And at first it was like, hey, would you like to be on a show? And I'm like, what show is this? I think because maybe my age, maybe like Jeopardy or something.

And then they're like, no, it's The Bachelorette. And the first thing I thought of was like, oh my God, did my mom nominate me? This is like crazy embarrassing. And I really didn't know what to do. But, you know, it was kind of one of those things where, you know, in 2019, lost Laura. In 2020, you know, had COVID. So it just felt like the right time to, you know, take a risk, kind of gamble on yourself and do something crazy. What were your biggest reservations going into the show?

I mean, name it. Like, you know, when you're deciding whether or not to get on this, all you can see is what can go wrong. Because you don't know what can go wrong because you don't know what can go right. You don't know like the relationships that could form between, you know, myself and Katie or even my experience with the guys in the show, like living with all these guys, you know, for an extended period of time is totally odd. I mean, I haven't done that since, you know, college. And, you know, it's, it was just one of those things that I never really thought about doing it. So I wasn't really prepared or didn't know how to navigate the whole thing. So the fact that it was foreign too, it was kind of scary, but, you know, sometimes you just have to roll the dice.

How much did you anticipate having to or wanting to or just, you know, knowing it's a dating show, knowing it's about love? I mean, before I get into that question, how familiar were you with the premise of the show? Yeah. So, this was actually Laura's favorite show. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, everybody knows this who's been in like a long relationship, you know, like boyfriend or girlfriend, husband and wife. They have their favorite shows. And like usually, you know, if you don't want to watch it, you just go into the other room. And I was doing that for a while when she was watching The Bachelor. the room and I was doing that for a while when she was watching The Bachelor but then it was like you know we're getting off work and what we're spending the whole night in different rooms watching you know God knows what and so the first season I actually watched was Juan Pablo season

which personally I mean is my favorite still because it was just such a train wreck and fantastic it's great it's great like he always goes down as like one of the like craziest ones or whatever but like I just loved it like the disorder was really crazy entertaining and then you know before I even knew it I started developing like opinions about people about like situations I'm like my God, I'm locked into this. But, um, you know, then I, I mean, I was casually in it, but really didn't know too much about it outside of watching a handful of like seasons there here and there. Wow. So then while you're going through this, you know, you've been reached out by the show, you considering it knowing that it was your wife's favorite show

what was that like thought process like i mean in terms of like did it feel like extra meta being like i'm about to go on this did you guys ever even joke about even though you're married you know so i know a lot of married couples be like you would do so well in the show or vice versa yeah i mean she used to say that stuff all the time like when we were watching it because i would I know a lot of married couples be like, you would do so well on the show. Oh, my God. And vice versa. Yeah. I mean, she used to say that stuff all the time, like when we were watching it. Because I would give her my hot takes on what these guys should be doing or what they could be doing. And she'd be like, you'd be so good on this. Like, you should totally do it.

You know, we could get divorced. And you could just like totally come back. And, you know, we'll get back together and just totally play the system i'm like geez you're a con artist laura like my god these are people's feelings you're heartless but it was it was just kind of a fun game and i think you know i think after losing somebody you're always looking for signs and a lot of those signs aren't really clear but this one was like crazy clear and i think if I didn't do it I would have thought about it the what if like forever and the what ifs always like burn me they keep me up at night so I'd rather make a mistake than do nothing and have to face that consequence yeah did you and so obviously you were familiar with the show and you know, obviously the show, a lot of times you, especially in these one-on-one dates, people will talk about tragedy that they've endured.

Most people are fortunate enough not to have faced death that you had to face with Laura. Is that something, obviously you must have anticipated that coming up And how prepared were you to talk about it? And did you anticipate going as deep as you did, which was, I mean, really inspiring to a lot of people and just kind of your approach to it all i think a lot of people watching it saw someone who brought a lot of perspective and calmness especially in a world where we're so easily we get riled up real quickly yeah real easily sometimes for things that don't really matter or often don't matter or a day later. Were you anticipating that? Was that a goal of yours to hopefully be a symbol of overcoming adversity and tragedy? Or is it something that just kind of happened organically? I would say it definitely happened organically. I mean, you never know how people are going to respond to one thing or the other. I mean, I know that there'd be a group of people that'd be rooting me on,

you know, because of the loss, because, you know, I was in a relationship for basically 16 years. And, but then there's the other side of it where, you know, people criticize, how could you do this to your son? He's not ready to move on. You know, like he never had like feelings or connections with Katie. It's like, you don't know what you're going to feel until you're actually in it and doing that work. And so I didn't have some sort of plan of, you know, being a symbol of like hope or inspiration or anything like that.

a symbol of like hope or inspiration or anything like that. I still don't even think I am. But, you know, I'm glad that people were able to hear about, you know, my journey, learn more about Laura. Because, you know, I mean, you're always worried about how time works and how people forget. And, you know, one of the things that I always wanted to make sure was that people knew who she was, too. So, you know, it was a nice way to talk about her. And, I mean, quite frankly, if someone's asking me, like, who I am, how can I not go into depth about your past and your history? I mean, it's half of it at least. Did you have any or a lot of conversations with Laura's family when going on this show? We had a bunch of conversations and it was really difficult because

they're amazing people. Um, they actually just bought a condo in Akron. So yeah, they're from Detroit. And so they live like two blocks away now. And I mean, Laura was an only kid. And so now James, my son, only grandchild. And, you know, I want to I want to always make sure that they have like that connection forever. So I'm super excited about that. They're great. But we did have a conversation about, you know, going on the show. And I knew it wasn't going to be easy to have to watch this. I mean, it's really strange. There's so many different layers to this. I mean, people rooting for me, I mean, close friends and family rooting for me to find love, find a way to be functional, try to find a way to move on and move forward with everything that's happened. But at the same time, there's always that awkwardness of, for the first time, seeing me with somebody else, like even getting intimate with somebody else. It's odd. If anyone's out there who just needs to talk to someone, they're stressed out about life,

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they appreciated me asking, but it's not without its pain, like without a doubt, it's just naturally ingrained in the decision. Yeah. How much dating did you do between the time Laura passed and going on the show? Yeah. So Laura passed in January, January 23rd, 2019. And I remember like sitting in my room kind of wondering like, how am I even going to begin this? Well, one, and I think a lot of people who've lost somebody understand this, you develop these like odd habits. Like for example, like you share a bed with, you know, I share a bed laura forever and you have her side and my side and then after she passed that side's just empty and it's really strange and so i didn't read this or anything but i started laying across my bed so it like my feet were on her side i'm not

sure why i gave her my feet but um i laid across the whole thing almost to like change habit or something. And I did that for, you know, like eight months is super odd. But then I started thinking about, you know, what's it, what are these different phases going to be like? Cause I need to start moving and understanding what this like mountain ahead of me looks like for James and I. like mountain ahead of me looks like for james and i and i started going on some uh dates about you know three or four months after she passed not with the intent of finding somebody i went on about 10 dates kind of getting the gears going almost well more or less like you know you have all of these different like sensory experiences you have the first time you're driving to go meet somebody. You feel like you're having an affair.

The first time somebody, they smell different or they touch you. Just nice, friendly touch. It's weird. It's not their touch. Inside jokes no longer land. jokes no longer land. Like all of these different habits that you've become accustomed to over the years, they no longer apply. And so I was trying to gauge all of those different things. And I went on 10, one date only, different people. And I was very upfront about my situation. I mean, back at home, Laura's kind of inspirational journey, what she did, it was very public. So a lot of people knew about it even before I went on a date with them.

So it wasn't like hiding intentions or anything like that. Listening to you talk about that, it's interesting because with Laura passing, it's very obviously finite and it's it's interesting because you know with with laura passing it's very obviously finite and it's definitive and yet when you were telling that story i wonder if a lot of people listening even myself you know even when people deal with breakups like uh let's say they're dating for five or six years and you break up and and you know you know that person's still alive and and well yeah but just that especially if you live together or you know that person's still alive and well. But just that, especially if you live together or you have that routine and that thought, you know, of like that you break up and you go to bed

and they're not there anymore. Yeah. And that kind of adjustment period and what that's like or even like inside jokes or feeling like you try, even if you are the breaker up or were broken up with, there's a level of, especially if you have hope of getting back together, it's kind of fascinating dealing with loss or, you know, just trying to move on from a time in your life where you were really comfortable

or really enjoyed all the things that we invest in in relationships and build in those, like you said, those inside jokes. Yeah. And it's, it's what, you know, obviously if you deal with death, it's incredibly heartbreaking. And then, you know, if it's just heartbreak, there's, there's a, there's a level of loss too. Yeah. And there's even, you're so right on this.

And there's even a level of like too. Yeah, and there's even, you're so right on this, and there's even a level of just tasks around the house, whether it's grocery shopping or just things that were designated for one way or the other that are totally different. And even raising a single son, I mean, I have no idea why these things exist. I can't even comment on that. But Laura would typically know all the dates like for school like where you have to bring in you know uh valentine's day like uh mailboxes and there's birthday treats and you know certain things like she always championed like those things and you know it was a total learning experience where i had to completely shift and start adopting those because you know no one else

is going to do it and you know my kid can't be like you know the dirty stinky kid in class so it's like i gotta i gotta i gotta man up here guys yeah figure this stuff out on the fly thinking about like the comparison comparison between a heartbreaker breakup and then obviously dealing with death. When people break up, they go through those stages, right? Yeah. But there's, I got to move on. This person doesn't want to be with me or I don't want to be with them.

Whatever, right? There's like it's just – and you want to get to that place of indifference so that you're just like, hey, we're not together anymore. Right. And then you make that – you make the list of the things that you didn't like so you can focus on but with Laura your wife who you loved and would want to be married to if if cancer didn't happen yeah how does someone in your position you know honor obviously the memory of

your wife and it must make it so much harder to move on because you have to change some of those routines and let go of some of those things to a certain degree while simultaneously honoring her memory, making sure that your son, you know, still remembers his mom. What was that thought process like? How do you go about doing it? Because just think about it out loud. It seems like an impossible task. It didn't feel this way early on, but it's something I understand better now without being an expert on this whatsoever. Just my own personal experience. Like you have to be easy on yourself. It doesn't have to be perfect. You have to find a way to move forward. You don't move on and you don't, um, like just turn the page as, as if it's didn't happen or if it's no longer

there. Like when you spend that amount of time with somebody, they're a part of you. I mean, they walk with you. And I remember feeling that pressure early on when Laura passed, like, you know, what's, what's two years look like five years, 10 years, like, how much distance is going to be created where, you know, we no longer remember her that like the way that she should be. And that was crazy scary for me because that's like a big important part of my life. And so I did create a nonprofit that honors her, puts her at the forefront called the L4 Project. And that's kind of my hope to do some good, kind of do this tragedy to triumph type thing. And hopefully it's something that if it is successful, it's something that my son can

actually, you know, champion one day and continue to keep that connection with his mom. Because you just never know how that whole thing works. Grief is really, really difficult. It's not linear. It has its peaks and valleys. The second you think you're past a certain phase, it has its peaks and valleys the second you think you're past a certain phase it bites you um and you're like oh my god i just went back like a year you know i'm back here again and so it is it's this constant balancing act that you know what i will say is it's never boring but it's a challenge and you know i'm lucky enough because I have a lot of family and friends that have been there since like day one supporting us. And without them, I mean, I wouldn't even be functional. So it's not just, it's not at all me getting there. I mean, that's a piece of it,

but it's also me being able to get there because I had an awesome community kind of taking care of me and watching my back. Sometimes you just want cereal at 930 at night and you don't want to get off the couch because you are. Well, you can't drive if you totally can't do it with you. And that's where DoorDash comes in. That's right. So whether it's a late night cereal, your favorite restaurant down the street, pizza, Chinese food, sushi, you name it. DoorDash has so many great options available to you to get the food that you want and need. Cramming's, that's right, it could be late night ice cream, whatever.

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and get into the show a little bit. Let's do it. It's a nice little transition, though, leading up to this. You're a good interview interviewer by the way oh thanks yeah very insightful thanks now you're making me nervous yeah so you we've just talked so much obviously about this process of overcoming or continuing to overcome, obviously, the loss of your wife. Yeah. And most people who go on the show are very fortunate to have to experience what you've had to experience. But going on the show, as you know as well, is a whole other kind of psychological process.

Yeah. And then you're in this bubble, and then when you leave, there's this kind of decompression of like what just happened. And like you said, there's these stages, right? It's different for everyone. How was it for you and how much did you reflect back, you know, on all the things that you went through with your wife to, you know, kind of overcome the challenges that are involved in kind of decompressing and getting back to

normal from the show, which everyone who goes on it, especially if they're on it for a lengthy period of time. I mean, if you're on it for a couple of weeks, then it's not quite the same, but you were in it for a long time. You were emotionally invested. You cared about Katie. So for that, for the people who experienced that, what was that like for you? And again, how much do you feel like that perspective you've had with the life that you've led and had to endure? Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I think, I mean, anyone that has ever gone through this process or this show, I mean, it's really hard talking to other people about the show because they just don't understand. It's just this foreign thing. And that's what kind of makes it,

you know, intriguing or unique. It's this crazy, like, you know, bonding, I don't know, trauma bonding, fraternity, sorority setup, maybe a little bit of both. But I kept reminding myself, even during the most difficult times, like where the show is really testing me, Missing James is testing me, you know, balancing, you know, my past and my present on the show is playing mind games. I kept reminding myself that this is not the hardest thing I've done, like at all, at all. like at all, like at all. And so kind of, that's when experience kind of sets in when life experience settles in. And,

you know, if I would have been on this show, you know, when I was 25, I would not have been able to do it. Like not at all. You did. No,

I think about that too. Yeah. When were you on? Like when was 33? Okay. Yeah. So, and, and we, you know. When were you on? I was 33. Okay, yeah. So, and we, you know, Andy, she was, as a best friend, she was 27, 28. So, I think the overall cast was in their late 20s or early 30s. But yeah, I, you know, since the show has evolved and like you've had, you know, like

Peter, you know, you had a much younger cast of women and even some of the men on the seasons i think to myself like how fortunate i feel like i was to yeah have like you know lived a life but was in corporate you know in corporate america you know had a job faced some real adversity yeah some heartbreak and and all, that all, yeah, I couldn't imagine. I mean, if I went on as like a 24, 25 year old. Yeah, I would have bombed. Like it just wouldn't have been the type of experience that it is for me today. Like I was able to pull a lot of like meaning and a lot of things that, you know, 10 years down the road, I'll look back and be very thankful for, because I was taking those types of things in where if I was younger, they would have just gone over my head. So I do think, you know, there's that part where having older people,

you know, on the show, and I'm not even sure what defines older. But I was the old guy. And I liked it. Did you find yourself counseling or being kind of the mentor in the house? Or were you trying not to step on any toes? Or did you find some of the guys were migrating towards you as they learned about you and what you've been through as someone who, you know, was kind of helping them get through certain difficult emotional times. Yeah. I mean, what I'll say first is like, sure. I'm older, had more life experience than these guys did, but this cast, like these guys, I mean, I'm not even kidding. They were very like emotionally aware and they were deeper than i think most people recognize i mean everybody i think overall it seemed like a solid group solid cast um and yeah kind of just um you know over like yeah i i think that generally came across to

bachelor nation that we were dealing were dealing as a collective group. Yeah. Some quality men who were in touch with their feelings. Other seasons are more bro-y. Yeah. Kind of. Alpha. Alpha, kind of.

And I thought this group of men reflected that. Yeah, I mean, my roommate was Josh out of miami and he's 25 josh out of miami yeah he didn't i mean he didn't get as much air time as i wish he would have because which one what do you look like incredible human being oh okay yeah yeah yeah so he's 25 he was my roommate and i remember thinking like when i was 25 I wasn't like half the man he is. And I was like, I can't wait for you to add another like 10 years. Because you're just, I mean, this guy has crazy depth, life experience, all of those things. And it's like when you're sharing a room with somebody, you're like, you know, God.

And, you know, he's just a great human being. And so I guess to get back to your question, like, was I the mentor or things like that? I think what I did provide a lot of people was perspective when things felt like they were getting out of control or, or too intense or chaotic or something like that to pull themselves away, kind of take a breather, understand like what's happening. And I remember they, I mean, in New Mexico at these COVID seasons, my God, you can't do anything. And so we're all just hanging out. And I mean, probably for like a two or three weeks span I was just like manning the grill like totally leaning into like this old totally done

yeah it's a Midwestern thing you know and I was making I was making you know all of the producers and all the handlers food you know everybody on the show like and I make them they're very therapeutic I would have loved yeah yeah I mean I love that I could do cuz I love to cook and I you know I on the show like and i make them their very therapeutic i would have loved yeah yeah i mean i i love that i could do because i love to cook and i and i would be like all right have fun on your date with katie um you know be back before midnight i'll have some hot dogs like how is tonight anything you want to talk about yeah everything okay so you ended up sending yourself home uh did you anticipate that might be a possibility going into the show given obviously with your son and the challenges that you were gonna face um obviously

you got to facetime your son on a regular basis yeah not as often as i wish i would have because well i not as often as i wanted to i should say because know, we were like three hours behind and the opening to actually FaceTime him, you know, it changes. It's not like one o'clock every day. Be there. So and then you had a producer kind of over your shoulder, which, you know, really makes for a real intimate conversation with your son. It's a challenge. Yeah, it's a little bit of a challenge. We were able to, like, connect, but I did not, I didn't have any expectations going on to the show. I didn't

know how far I'd make it. I didn't know if I would actually develop feelings for Katie. And I told Katie, I mean, probably more than she probably ever wanted to hear it was like, if I'm not feeling this, like I'm totally leaving. But then, leaving. But then our one-on-one date happened. And that was when everything changed for me, where I actually got to know her as a person. And it's not always what people say, but you can see it in their eyes too. You can hear it in their tone. They're not rehearsing lines that they think look good on camera are going to be great sound bits like you can feel it and i remember being like oh like there it is like that's the reason i was here and actually i didn't have um a group

date or anything for like the first like 10 days i just went straight to one-on-one right after like 12 days of covid like um like a quarantine quarantine yeah yeah yeah not having covid yeah i just want to make that clear yes so after you left in the time you know the internet was abuzz by some of the comments you left on katie's instagram what do you regret more, not having a beard all filming the show or flirting with Katie on Instagram now knowing that she was engaged? Correct. Yeah, it's a bad look. Not the beard.

The beard's a great look. Yeah, total, you know, looking back. That's totally fine. We're all messing with you. No, no, no. I want to clear the air here because it's important to know one what i did i'm not like like looking back if i could have never done that please never would have done it um the other side of it was i really didn't know if she was engaged and quite frankly a lot of her like social media activity suggested maybe she wasn't 100 percent yeah and so i mean

i'm not sure if that's typical of leads to be that active on social or whatever but i mean as someone that's just kind of waiting around and remembering what it felt like when i left and like that connection i couldn't help but think that it was still carrying over but then you watch the season and you realize yeah she's developing amazing relationships with other people outside of me you know you're like oh my god Leah like how stupid was I and I do think that her and Blake are like an awesome match and I wasn't able to see that when I was on the show. And so, you know,

after I did my creepy old man, like comment, I, uh, what did you even say? I don't, I said, um,

can't say what I want to. And it was a picture, but that even makes it worse because it's a little too vague. It was very open ended. Yeah. And it was like a thirst trap photo. Yeah. Yeah. yeah i mean she was looking beautiful and i said that and like people are like oh my god does this guy know how to use

the internet and i don't i really don't think it was that bad i mean i also did in your defense like you said like you did it like it's a it's a common story right in a common story that that's the idea of the show that especially the four five or six guys who really are forming connections with the lead truly feel like their connection is the the strongest right because in a normal world how could you imagine having strong feelings for someone and them have the ability to act and do with other people that they're doing with you it's it's fucked up right so it's human nature for you to think that. Yes.

And I did contact Blake and totally apologized. After I saw that they were together, I was like, dude, I'm so sorry. And Blake's awesome. He seems like a chill guy. He's awesome. I mean, he's secure. He's like, dude, no problem. And I'm like, all right, cool.

But I just want to let you know I wasn't trying to step on toes. Weird time. Sure. Chalk it up to a weird time. And like you said, Katie's social media activity, whether she was trying to get people guessing or was deliberate. Red herrings everywhere. Hanging out with other guys from the franchise he'd sent home. You just like yeah maybe she's just like this is a free agent we're

looking at here and you can't you can't talk to them like there's you know there's that was always the frustrating part too like being on the show you're like i got a question and i gotta like wait multiple days to even be able to possibly have the opportunity and then the show ends you're like wait i, I still have questions, but you know, you just have to wait and watch everything unfold. A lot happened on the show after you left, most notably the breakup with Greg. Yeah. And that was very triggering for bachelor nation.

It was allegedly triggering for Katie as as we found out in after the final rose. Yeah. What are your thoughts on Greg? What were your thoughts on the fight? And let's start with what we saw as far as a breakup. What was your perspective knowing Katie and knowing Greg? Greg probably had, he got off to such a fast start. I mean, first impression rose, then, you know, first one on one. And actually, you know, he got a second one on one. I mean, he got the most time. I mean, throughout the whole entire thing, you know, he really didn't have to question where he stood. He was kind of the front runner in the house. That also comes with a lot of weight to start that early and then have to see all of these guys start to develop real connections.

I would say watching that fight or that breakup unfold, one, emotionally charged. I mean, anybody that questions the authenticity of the show, I mean, sure, there's editing stuff that they just have to do to make it, but that's what real breakups sometimes look like. They're messy. They're dirty. I couldn't help when I was watching it. You ever see Full Metal Jacket? I have, yeah. When he's like, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

That is exactly what was going on. And some of that is based on the structure of the show and what you can and cannot do. And just those limitations. But also I think his, when they first got together, I mean, that was coming off me leaving too.

So I do think Katie was in a very difficult place and, you know, people are human. Like they deserve some grace. Like we make mistakes. Um, uh, I mean, across the board, I mean, I know, I know I have, I think Greg's an amazing, uh, person. I think, I think it was this crazy intersection where he finally opened up and finally spilled everything to Katie and when it wasn't reciprocated for

one reason or the other, that really hurt him. When you get hurt, they always say, hurt people hurt people. We had Greg on and he acknowledged that he was guilty of whether it was like a conscious thought in the moment, but reflecting back that he probably wanted her to feel the pain he was feeling. Yeah. I mean, however, the subconscious works, I'm not even sure. I think, I guess that's the whole point of the

subconscious. It felt very real. You know, it felt like something like that could easily happen, you know, in the real world off a set. And so, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I know that, you know, Katie is certainly somebody that, you know, is charged. Um, you know, she's somebody that's like emotional. Um, and for, I mean, that's also one of the biggest pros of her. Katie accused Greg of acting. Do you think Greg was acting? If you look at me on the show, I have no idea what's going on like the whole time I mean zero um so I wasn't even thinking about that um watching it and knowing Greg I would say I don't believe he was acting I mean I think there was if he was I think he could have had, I don't know, a better departure.

I mean, if you are actually skilled at this, why would you choose this route? I mean, I think there's better alternatives to how it ended. I mean, I know that some of the backlash that he got was, I mean, very, very severe. some of the backlash that he got was, I mean, very, very severe. And if he had this master plan, I don't think he would have chosen that route whatsoever. I don't know who would. What did you think of how Katie approached AFR with Greg? Yeah. Again, for people that are like, are these emotions really running high? They are. And I was, I guess I was not surprised she came out there and, you know, handed it to him.

I think she was waiting for that interaction for a long time. And she was stewing. And while you're offset, you're reading all these things on the web and whatever. And so personally for me, I wish she would have focused more in on how happy she is. Because I do think her and Blake have something like special. And I think looking back on it, whether or not she's right or wrong, but I do

think it may have taken something away from the moment that they could have shared for, you know, after the final rose kind of deal so i mean i haven't spoken to her about you know how she's feeling about it um but you know everything will be everything will be all right yeah uh katie wanted an apology from greg with how he handled his anger towards her did he give it to her i don don't even remember. At AFR, yeah. Okay. Yeah. It didn't come naturally. You know, obviously, it sounds like he was triggered by his, you know,

he was prompted with the question, do you regret anything? And he was like, no. You know, it's probably, you know, like I said, I saw it as, you know, it was a bad look for sure. Yeah.

He explained it and I understand his point of view where he's just like, yeah, everything happens for a reason reason I'm not with Katie Blake is I'm happy for them obviously given how things played out you can see how that's not great and then you know they're out there

you know Greg offered his apology quick question do you think things actually happen for a reason no I don't either I don't I don't believe that yeah I'm not like I don't either. I don't believe that. That's a totally stupid thing people say. Yeah, I'm not, like, I don't believe that. Especially from your position. What the fuck does that mean?

Like, Laura's supposed to have passed away? You know, I mean, things happen for a reason. Like, people are always like, yeah, if this didn't happen, then this wouldn't have happened. It's like, no, that's just an event happening and you making a decision. Yeah. You know, but, you know, we don't have to get all existential

and, you know, free will and all that. And we deal with it, yeah. But, yeah, like know we don't have to get all existential and you know free well and we deal with it yeah like i don't believe it's i don't believe it's just this random walk do you think katie should apologize to greg for are you kidding me you're gonna ask me that um i i that's up do you think that would be the nicest nice thing to do um that's up to them i'm not touching that not touching it no i'm not touching it it's not yes it's not no it's nothing okay get nothing from me on that one and you like blake you like blake and katie uh you're rooting for i mean so not we're all rooting for them do you how do you think it's gonna play out i think they actually have something crazy special. I mean, no joke. Um, and it was actually nice seeing it too. Um, because I mean, you know, from being the lead, it's exhausting.

I mean, you're supposed to be everything to everybody. I mean, I think, I think you didn't give a shit a lot of times, which was good when you were doing it. Like you, you knew who you were, whether or not that's age or everything else, which I think helped you during your journey, but it's not without, you know, your bumps and your bruises. And at the end of this, you just want to be happy and it's emotionally draining and everything so when i'm watching them interact it's like oh yeah like i can see it and i'm really kind of irritated with people saying that like blake and katie got together because of default i think that's insanely wrong and like as much as i wish you know things would have possibly been different,

I mean, everything happens for a reason, right? I'm really excited for them. And he was by no means default. And I think people need to just scrub that from the conversation. I agree. I mean, we talked about it. I think Katie was always going to pick Blake. So do I.

Looking back on it now, I mean, it didn't feel that way going through it. But yeah, I mean, they, in hindsight, looking at it from, you know, 10,000 feet, it totally makes sense. Speaking of The Bachelor, a lot of people, I think everyone in this room, were hoping you would be our next Bachelor. Thank you. Are you the next bachelor? Yeah, I'll start there. So I get this question a lot, believe it or not. And I typically have to give the same answer, which is they approached me.

There have been discussions and no decisions have been made. What are reservations you would have of being the next bachelor? So I had reservations, like I said before, being a contestant, those are even heightened when you're the lead. Obviously, there's, you know, a lot of like shiny things that come with the lead, but sometimes, like not everything that shimmers is gold here. And I have to think about just because of my life and the things I actually care about, my son, you know, my like lifestyle. Like, what do I want after this? Am I ready to introduce my son to random people that he doesn't know maybe i don't know um but those are all just

complicated things if the show i mean we know the show approached you but let's say it was a serious something you were on the verge of considering it would have to be a different type of season 100 right they would have to accommodate your specific needs personally i think it's worth it yeah we're talking about some large organizations who run this franchise what would be those how would that how would that that have to look for you to be the next bachelor yeah i mean obviously being away from james as you saw, it's too difficult for me to bear. And I wouldn't want to replicate the past. One thing I'll say real quick, and I've got so many opinions on this. One thing I'll give Katie crazy props on is no matter when anybody got home, how many roses they had, how far they made it,

consensus as a whole is that Katie made everybody feel like they were the only person in the room. That is a crazy skill, especially when like your heart or your mind is with somebody else. I mean, you're human, you have preference. And so I remember thinking thinking would i be able to like do that if james wasn't there or if like you know i'm thinking of something else and you know if i was the bachelor 100 james would be there and i don't believe that i, they've made accommodations to people in the past with that, you know, Jason Mesnick and Maynard. Yeah. But also, yeah, I mean, I'm 37, dude. So?

Like, not looking to, like, date around and do all that. Like, casting is totally different, you know? And, you know know location is different and how not only just finding the person that you want to be with because you feel that like connection but how do your lives intersect you know how what does it look like after the show you know do you have a career do you want to be somewhere else like like i'm i'm in ohio and i love. And so there's all of these different things. Like, if I was The Bachelor, are you pulling heavy from the Midwest? You know, like, how is this whole thing happening?

It's just a different level of collaborative effort across, like, all the disciplines in the show that would have to be working together to you know make sure that you know they're giving me somebody or a group of people that actually want this um which i think i think it's totally possible but it's just it's just the shift as you know it's possible but the show the show would have to shift that i don't know if the show the show is in historically, the show is casting for TV first and Love second. Yeah. And then, truthfully, they don't need you to be compatible with 30 people. Right. They want you to be compatible with four.

Yeah. And then you decide. Like, on your season, did you feel like you knew your four early? Yeah. Raven, I didn't really notice Ravenven until like week three yeah but once i had a one-on-one with her i was like she you know top four yeah i had a top three and that was kind of different than everyone else yeah um and i knew you know rachel for sure yeah and like i mean she got my first impression rose and then vanessa was was my front runner. Right. And that's usually how it goes.

And someone might have a top four or top five or top six, but it's usually not much more than that in terms of people, they meet night one, and you're thinking, oh, this could be it. So to your point, the show could cast, like, of the 30 people, 15 people from the midwest but the three of your favorites are from like hawaii right and montreal right yeah uh yeah but people me and vanessa moved to la yeah what i guess what i'm saying michael is if you have

reservations on being the bachelor what questions do you have for me so that i can maybe convince you to consider it because i think the the the franchise needs someone like you to be their next bachelor who i think is a little older who's experienced some real life experiences not necessarily the the tragedy you faced with laura but we've gotten younger batchers the past couple seasons people you know Peter nice guy lives at home and we saw a guy who couldn't decide Matt James had never really been in love he kind of struggled

with you know his choices and I feel like Matt's situation was difficult too because he wasn't even on the show before Matt's was difficult on so many every i mean every level yeah but just i'm just talking about just the fact of like life experiences and the show historically has um like i was an outlier right yeah um and i think this the way the show is being viewed now there's a heightened expectation of men in general in society.

And so I want the show to cast a guy like yourself who has higher expectations of himself because I'm sure you've made your dating mistakes. I mean, obviously you were with Laura the whole time. But like you said, you weren't the same man you are now. Correct. You probably had been toxic at times in relationships. Even I'm sure you and Laura,

you could probably look back. Yeah, nothing's perfect. And stuff like that. So me, I'd like to see a season where you bring all these life experiences into these dating conversations that quite frankly are just going to be different with you than they're going to be, let's say with someone like greg yeah so what what what what do you need like what would

what's the one thing holding you back more than anything you know i think for me um i i'm i'm always battling this thing where it's like what's best for me and then also or what do i want as an individual versus what is best for my family like you would think a lot of times they totally align but they don't always and you know there's there's a part of me that I'm thinking, you know, is this like unorthodox route what I want James to like look at and be like, oh, that's how you find a wife. You go on ABC. It's all unorthodox. And, you know, love is love, too. Like I've done the full circle there.

You know, I think putting life on hold is difficult. I'm working on some like crazy, awesome projects. I mean, outside, outside of the, um, nonprofit that would totally be put on hold for this. And I know that it's, it's worth it when you're looking at investment in longterm for yourself, but, you know, would I be able to do kind of what Katie did and emotionally make myself available to that amount of people and give them the attention that they need? You might not have to though. Yeah. I mean, you could debate, you know, for example, I think that's a great skill. Ben Higgins had that skill too, right? Yeah, Ben's awesome. I don't know if I was good at that. I, I broke up with like a lot of women on dates,

but for me it was just more, I didn't want to, I was a two time runner up who felt let on often. That's what gets you on Rushmore, buddy. Yeah. But, uh, so for me at the risk of not making everyone feel like I was, you know, that the, the every morning rose with them and sat with them. I was okay with some women knowing that it was never going to happen. Right. Which I think is fair too. Yeah. I mean, that's what you want anyways.

I think that's a great skill that Katie had and definitely in the moment makes everyone feel, and then honestly it's, it makes for great TV. Yeah. Because everyone is more like more chances of people being like i think i'm the one yeah right um but i don't know if that's necessarily required for you to be the bachelor or even be a good bachelor yeah i think i think you're probably right on that and i mean i'm i often overthink things and you know sometimes the simplicity of it is is your answer and I got it I got to tell you this so you know when the conversations with

producers about being The Bachelor like started you know I had so many questions about whether or not to do it I mean mean, and all of that. And then I actually like, spoke with James, I was getting a call at like seven o'clock. And I was like, James, daddy's got to jump on a call at seven. And he's like, what's it about? I was like, well, you know, that show daddy was on, they, you know, they're considering me to be on it again. And he's like, well, you know, what's that show about? And I was like, well, it's about finding daddy a girlfriend. And I remember talking to him and he said, you know, would I be able to come with you this time? And I was like, oh, of course. Like, you know, if they wanted me back, I'd never like leave you.

You would totally come with me, do the whole thing. And then, you know, and then he's like, what's wrong, daddy? And I remember thinking, I told him, I was like, you know, well, daddy's having a hard time, you know, like, you know, still misses like your mom a bunch, like all of those things. James comes back and says, well, if you found a girlfriend, would, would she live with us? And I was like, well, she would if you wanted a girlfriend would um would she live with us and i was like well she would if you wanted her to bud and i was like would i be able to help choose that girlfriend and i'm like yeah you would totally be able to choose that girlfriend and i was like james what are you looking for in

a girl and he gave like the most like misogynistic answer he's like well she's got to clean and cook and i'm like oh god james come on like he's like i mean i mean's got to clean and cook. And I'm like, oh, God, James, come on. He's like, I mean, I did agree with one of them, which was she has to be able to read. So I was like, that's, you know. A core competency we want in our partners. Yeah, color within the lines is big for him. And then, you know, I was just like, I just don't know, like what to do. You know, I'm struggling with, you know, a lot of these things.

And he just basically said, you know, don't worry, dad, like everybody needs somebody. And this was like five minutes before my call. And I was just like, oh my God, like here I am trying to project everything onto my son, you know, like here I am trying to project everything onto my son, you know, everything that I'm feeling. And he just so, he put it just so beautifully as a five-year-old, like how simple it actually is. I mean, almost everything in life is actually a lot simpler than people make it out to be.

And here I am, am you know giving that advice while still simultaneously not being able to take it but i understand the the irony there but it was it was a really deep conversation for you know a five-year-old to have and you know i think he's he wants to get back to normal you know he sees his friends have like you know a mother and a father and he knows that it's different we We talk about grief all the time. We talk about who is, you know, mom, you know, was and continues to be and all of those things. I wrote a little children's book for him that just one copy that we read. But yeah, I mean, it's complicated and it's not, you know. If it's not going to be you,

uh, other names that have been thrown around, Greg, uh, Andrew a little bit. I know there were, um, speculation that Greg was the choice or whatever. And that seems to have died down a little bit truth. You know, do you think if it's not you, do you think Greg would be a good bachelor? What would his strengths be? What would his weaknesses be? I mean, the internet thinks Greg is hot as shit. So aesthetically, he's obviously killing that. He seems like an attractive person through Zoom.

Yeah, right. I know. Oh, that's funny. I think Greg, he's, I think he's very kind of in touch, you know, with, you know, his emotions. I think he's somebody that, you know, based on his family life and, you know, he's somebody that's been through obstacles. And I think that's vital. I mean, like I could never be with anybody that doesn't have scars like at all i love that i always say we're damaged not broken i love it i mean if if you know

if somebody if you're talking to somebody and they're like you know life is all just rainbows that's not being optimistic if you you don't have that real testing moment where things aren't rainbows, like that's just being naive. And then it's when you actually have difficulties and you still feel optimistic, still feel hopeful, like that's been tested. I think Greg does have an element of that.

I think Andrew definitely does. I mean, the guys on our show, they all came with some deep stories where they were all tested. And I mean, I know this, long answers for your quick questions. It's a podcast, man. Yeah. That's why we're here. I know. I've never been given a short answer in my life.

I know. I'm long-winded here. You can't get those sound bites from me. But I think both of them would be good and they'd offer different things andrew's funny as hell so his would be very like entertaining and like lively high energy i think i think greg's would be you know i mean we saw how he did it with kate i mean prior to the fight but you know like intimate like all of that greg mentioned that he acknowledged he has some work to do in himself that he maybe realized some kind of healing he

hasn't fully completed yeah do you think he would be capable of being the bachelor finding love while simultaneously uh following through with what he says he needs to work on. Well, I mean, I'd be hypocritical to say no for that because I was doing the same thing on the show. Um, I mean, I was healing from, from grief and I mean, who the hell goes on this show for mental health?

I mean, it's like, why? But there is a mental health element. Like when you are forced into interviews, like discussing your past running through things where normally it's very therapeutic you're like can we just do some interviews real quick because my mind's a mess and um i do think you can find some answers uh by going on the show

and taking a break from from life so i wouldn't i wouldn't draw the like a hard line there and say no or yes it really would depend on how he utilized that time and that opportunity if he were to do it. If it's not you, do you have a preference on who you think it should be between Greg and Andrew? Not really. I mean, I'm close with both those guys. I talked to, I think, Greg last week. I was texting with Andrew in Chicago, you know, yesterday. And I don't know.

I think the good part here is that, like, there are a lot of eligible people. They're not, whoever they choose, they're going to be good people that offer something different it just really depends on what type of season they like producers feel like they want to have one final question about the show and i'm just dying to get your perspective on before we get into a little bit more about you thomas has been a point of discussion especially now in paradise and it's something that i've personally like been fascinated by because I didn't get to meet you when I hosted that day but Thomas was one of the guys on the day and I heard all about it I immediately I was like this is full of shit yeah and yet the narrative and everything that happened with Thomas after I met him seems to be so outrageous. What is your take on Thomas?

Like, it seems clearly he's a bit of a bullshitter and a little corny. He's tall. He's incredibly good looking. Is he the narcissistic, trashbag human being that Aaron, Trey, and James, and some of the other guys say? Or is he just another young man who might be a giant

but has some work to do on himself? Like, what is your read on this guy? Yeah. Thomas was a difficult one to read. You know, like when you walk in there night one, you're like eyeing people up. You're like, you know, the guy in the cat suit, he's going to be cool. You know, Thomas, like he could be a problem.

Sure. I actually thought Christian was going to be a problem sure i actually thought christian was gonna be a dick and he became one of the coolest dudes on the show boston boston guy yeah like i was like he was wearing like a green velvet suit and i'm like oh my god like you're you're in trouble here with me um but with but with like thomas and everyone was wearing capris by the way like who is like no like like young men now feel like I don't know. I love a slim skinny jean, but pantsuits have turned into capris. I remember thinking, you know, we're roughly the same age here.

Like we would have gotten our ass kicked for something like that back in the day. You know, like not a chance. What the fuck are you doing, bro? Yeah, I know. I know you're wearing socks. Yuck. No, I know. You're wearing socks?

Yuck. To get back to Thomas, I think with him, I think he has a tendency to fall into corporate speak. You know, when you're on those teleconferences and you don't know what the hell people are saying, but it sounds good because they're using the jargon. I think he believes some of the things that he says and thinks that they're insightful but i mean i think watching it back there's a handful of times it's like what are you talking about he's he's clearly disingenuous to a certain degree

yeah that doesn't necessarily mean it could just simply mean someone who's not confident in himself sometimes i think we have a hard time looking, like you look at someone like Thomas and you think, I mean, this guy could do literally whatever he wants. He's one of the biggest human beings I've ever been around. And yet anyone can have insecurities. So, you know, being disingenuous could mean incredibly insecure.

Could be. And he could easily just be incredibly insecure. I mean, I don't know. It's been some of this, it's been fascinating. Cause like I, I picked up on the same thing you picked up when I first saw him, but I'm not at the same time willing to label someone and, and diagnose them and define them as when I don't, I don't know Thomas. I met him for like 20 minutes. You know, I would say,

I don't know Thomas. Yeah. I met him for like 20 minutes. You know, I would say this because there was a couple times where Thomas, you know, he was like ostracized from the whole house. And I'm just like the old guy at the bar or the grill. Just like, what's going on, guys? Yeah. And Thomas came up to me and he's like, what do you think's going on? Like, this is happening.

But I was like, you really just need to quit teaching people shit. Like stop like trying to mansplain everything to everybody and just listen to people, like get to know them. He was always trying to create like a solution and post-show, he actually reminded me that I said that to him and I've gotten to know him post-show

and he's a great dude. Like, like i mean he's a really nice guy he's got his things he's got to work on just like i mean shit i do too but it's just that's the interesting part is who you are on the show and who you are off the show because it does mess with you yeah and it can be a catalyst for change if you want it to be. Yes. Right. Unfortunately, I think it can hurt more people than it helps, but that really comes down to the individual on what do they want to make of this experience and what are their priorities? Is it to reflect and see what you can work on or is it to get everyone to like you yes and it's usually one of the if if if it's the former you have a shot if it's the latter you'll you're in trouble yeah and i remember talking to

thomas too about this i was like you know if you're gonna bulldoze people bulldoze them if you're going to be everyone's friend be everyone's friend you cannot do both simultaneously and that's where he's getting like hung up like he had his one route and method of how he wanted to pursue katie but then after that was done he had this whole other buddy buddy route and it was like that's one of the benefits of being on the show too you're being filmed 24 7 you're mic'd up 24 7 you can't hide like your true character comes out. And in so many ways, that's actually very helpful for finding your person too. Cause people can hide more in real world offset than they could onset. What's something you've learned about yourself recently, whether it's through the

show or after the show, or maybe it has nothing to do with the show, but is there anything about yourself that you've had a, I didn't really realize about this. I mean, I would say not a big fan of social media, you know, like really don't like doing that as much as, you know, sometimes we have to,

I am happy that we got like, you know, in my inbox, there's tons of amazing stories of people, grievers, you know, caregivers, stuff like that, single parents. That does feel like a full time job. Something I learned about myself is that, you know, I think it's capable to actually build a future here. I mean, I'm not joking. There's like, people always see the end result and they don't see the minute by minute like day struggle. And there was a long time there where, you know, I've just felt numb and I felt like it was going to be literally impossible to find somebody to raise James with.

And I do, I'll take this to my grave. I felt that hope when I was on the show. And that made me, that surprised me too. I didn't know I was capable of even like being able to open myself up to the the prospects of it but i mean that's a good surprise yeah i i totally agree i mean i i thankfully did not have to deal with tragedy like you had to but as someone who is dating older in my life yeah we talk a lot about this a lot but you know it's a a fine line between uh kind of an innocence yeah and naiveness which can be really great and having perspective which can also be great but it brings

in cynicism yeah and the show for me was a catalyst for feeling like a kid again and falling in love uh and and and because outside of the show, I was just, I'm just really, I'm too pragmatic for my own good. Sometimes. Getting your own way a little bit. Yeah.

So I totally, I totally get what, what you're saying. What's something that in relationships, and I don't mean necessarily just romantic, you know, friendships. Cause you know,

you were with Laura, obviously for a big chunk of your adult life. But what's something that in relationships you put up with in the past with how people communicated to you or treated towards you that you now realize is more of a non-negotiable that you are in tune with that you think is important for you to prioritize avoiding in relationships going forward? So that's a great question. One, I don't think somebody has to know who they are. I mean, that's like baseline. That doesn't get you any more points. But that like for me, that's when I mean, that's just par for the course. Like if you are coming in and you don't know your foundation, you don't have to have like the self-enlightenment type of scenario, but you have to know who you are. And then there is the responsibility of both partners in a relationship that have to constantly

feed and fill that confidence so that people, it's a safe place for people to be able to be themselves and not have to become something or do something where, you know, I think this will make him happy. I think this will make her want me more. And then everyone's keeping score. Like that idea is, think, is very present in a lot of relationships and also incredibly toxic. So that loyalty element, passion is huge. Purpose is huge for me. Don't talk about materials and people. Talk about ideas.

Talk about concepts, talk about things that are like lasting and larger than, you know, just this or that. And, you know, I don't like the materialistic like things. I mean, those things go away. You know, it's like, what's, what's the everlasting stuff, the law, the bigger piece, you know, some people haven't spent the time going exploring that or going through that investigation to figure out you know what it is they that really connects them to you know their partner in the world around them this might you might have already answered it with that last question but what's's advice you would give 21-year-old Michael when it came to maybe anything, but specifically love? Man, I think I drank too much that year.

I'm trying to remember how I was. You're going to have to go to like 30. Younger you. I think you're going to have to go to like 30. Younger. I mean, I would say you find really the intimacy and the meaning through the struggle. Don't avoid the struggle. That's actually like the greatest opportunity for connection to happen is during those times.

And I mean, I mean, over Laura and my 16 year relationship, littered with tons of struggles. I mean, as it would, that's how life works. But then the cancer diagnosis, I mean, that's a massive obstacle. And I found we grew closer in a way that I never thought possible during the most difficult times. And some of that is clarity. Some of that is like nothing else matters but this, that simplification. And don't run away from the obstacles. Embrace them and look at them as opportunities to grow with someone that you care about. Do you worry at all whenever you find love, whether you're the bachelor or not?

You know, one thing I saw on the Internet, or I think you and Katie talked about it, was living up to the memory of your wife. Right, right, right. Is that even something that you worry about or you feel like your next great love is going to have to worry about? What's that like? I mean, it's a great question. It's my responsibility to make sure that they feel that the love and the relationship is entirely

unique um that falls on me but also that goes back to that person being confident in who they are like understanding that this is something that comes as a package with me like it's all a part of it and I honestly don't see myself comparing and it goes back to kind of what you're saying too about like being back on the playground type of deal like finding a spark again like having something brand new like that's like great and and there's tons of things that you know like like laura didn't like the same music i liked you know like she liked like oldies and motown and you know we there was never something we bonded over like the next to you like who doesn't like oldies and well i like it but it's not like on loop you're like oh this oh, this was fun, but man. Yeah, right. Let's get the party going.

She's like, it's flashback Friday. Yeah, let's get out of four tops again. Thanks, son. But that's a cool thing that I'll be able to bond with somebody about that's totally unique. I don't see myself comparing at all. totally unique i don't i don't see myself comparing like at all but i know that that fear is real and i know that that weight is going to be carried by whoever decides to jump into this circus what's the worst date you've ever been on so this was probably like three so let's see remember i told you about like the 10 dates. Yeah. I think maybe like the fourth one.

Found this girl on like Hinge or something. And, you know, she from every angle, you know, she looked like she had her stuff together, you know, worked at hospital, like very smart, you know, all of that. I end up going to this date, and I'm not going to talk about her name, but the name that she had and who she introduced her as, like, I saw, like, her hospital ID, and it was a totally different name. And so first I'm like, like i'm like what's that like why is it and she's like oh yeah that's my name you know my mom gave me but i you know i hate it and i don't want to do that anymore then she starts to tell me which is like okay i'll buy

that fine yeah fine you're like okay but then like she spends like the next like two hours and i'm being like really nice um talking about like how her it's kind of sad too but i don't know if it's real because she didn't even tell me her name was that like how like her mom used to have they used to have like munchausen syndrome you know when you're like you keep your kids sick yeah like she was telling me this whole story about that and here i am in my head thinking like like i just lost my wife like i'm totally grieving this story is like one i don't know if it's true two if it is it's so sad and like i just trying, I got a babysitter for James. I was just trying to have a night out. Like, you know, get some appetizers, you know, like just hang out.

And then became this whole like therapy session. It was like a cry for help. It was frightening. It was frightening. And I was like, okay, like, Chuck, please. She's like, will I ever see you again? I'm like, you know, everything happens for a reason. Sure does.

You've been great. Before we let you go, we like to play a fun game with our guests. Yeah. It's called Do You Know Me? Okay. You down to play? Down to play. Real simple.

I'm going to ask you some questions. Does Michael does this? Have Michael ever done that? Yes or no questions are fine. Sure. Anecdotal stories are welcomed, but not expected. Thank you. Do you know me with Michael Alio?

Perfect. Is Michael a morning person? I'm a night person. That makes so much sense because he's a dad. That's right. Morning mornings are during the day. Once the kids go to bed, that's when you have a life. You know, like I stay up late.

Really? Like I stay up until maybe 2.30 in the morning every night. And it's literally like once I get my son down, I'm like crawling. I'm so tired. And then he gets down and I'm like, I've got so much time for myself. I can do whatever I want. Is that something you've've like as a dad you've had you've done or you were you always like a night i was always a night person but

like the idea of just this like freedom that happens every night where you can just do what you want to do like and you know usually it's not like i'm like doing this amazing stuff kid tv yeah i'm like binge watching net Netflix and like eating way too late. But yeah, night person. Does Michael have their read receipts turned on in their messages? But you're a Samsung guy. Uh-huh.

Which I do want to talk about real quick. Yeah, because I text you. Because people hate me for this. It's a, yeah, no, it's. The green bubbles. It was just like. Ruined group chats, Michael. I was like coming into this interview with so much high expectations and I was just like yeah ruin group chats michael i was like coming into this interview there's so much high expectations and i was just like you have to understand how much i

hate group chats and that's one of the reasons why i don't get included on them i do hate group chats and that is that i would switch to samsung just to be off of group chats people will like text if i need to be on something they chats. People will like text. If I need to be on something, they'll text me individually about it. And I love that like filtering element, like by itself that I'm not just going to be thrown on here. And then people who aren't doing anything during their day when I'm running

around are just having these side conversations. So yeah, big ups to Samsung and Android. Holler at your boy. Has Michael ever popped someone else's pimple? Are you a pimple popper? Well, I mean, it's usually one of the two. Not full time, but yeah.

Not full time. Yeah, it's not on my resume, but yeah. I mean, every gross thing you could imagine, you know, it's kind of come my way. Can Michael name three Britney Spears songs? Toxic. know it's kind of come my way can michael name three britney spears songs uh toxic um is that this uh slave for you i'm a slave for you yeah and one more time hit me baby one more time is it one more time is it called one more time hit me it's called hit me one more time hit me yes can you name three taylor swift songs No. You're not going to even try?

No. Come now, Michael. I'm not joking. Give us a, throw an effort. I would totally, like, I really. There's not one? Can you name one? I really don't listen to her at all.

But it's just like on the radio. But I don't listen to the radio. Oh, no. But he knows Britneyney which i applaud yeah i mean come on now um you know i mean this is going to get some serious blowback worse than the katie africa thing can you name four countries in africa yeah uh zimbabwe amanda picked that out i just want to zimbabwe which is totally fine but like oh you know okay to be fair i really i thought she was going to do it i wasn't trying to make it like a gotcha thing i like i thought

she was going to be able to do it it's not our bad yeah yeah yeah do you want me to join you do yeah please zimbabwe mozambique uh south africa uh congo ivory coast uh nambia um let's see you're going for like the non-basic ones. Yeah, Sudan. Did you really want to upstage your ex-girlfriend, didn't you? He did. Maybe a little. He missed the easy ones like Kenya, Ethiopia.

Yeah, right, right. I can't believe that ever became a thing. This Taylor Swift thing is about to be a thing. Can you imagine? Michael gets canceled because oh my god the outrage i'm sorry i mean for anybody that's gonna throw shade on this which i already imagine will happen just say shake it up oh yeah shake it up is also my favorite welcome to new york Yeah. They actually just told me that over my headphones. Oh, shake it off. Shake it off. Oh, shake it off.

Way to go, Chrissy. Shit. There you go. Good luck booking Taylor. Thanks a lot. This is an ambush. I have my own. Has Michael ever bought something off eBay?

Oh, yeah. I bought my golf clubs off eBay. Have you ever gotten scammed? I don't know if they're authentic golf clubs, but they sold them to me at a good price usually what i do when i'm uh like finding new clubs i'll go to like a you know golf galaxy or something try one and then wait a year then go on ebay and just get like one year used and it's like a third of the price so Would Michael ever pose nude for a magazine? No.

I don't think the world wants to see that. I mean, you guys saw me in that slang. You know, what? Have you ever sent a nude? No. Ever? Nope. Have you?

Yeah, people I've dated. They ever surface? No, my face isn't in it. It's not something I made a habit of. Watermark your nudes. That's good to know. These are all new things I got to figure out. We got you. Okay, good.

I know who to come to. Do you have a go-to karaoke song? Yeah, it's probably Big Papa. Notorious B.I.G. I can rattle that one off No Has Michael ever faked an orgasm? Typically we don't have to

But sometimes when you drink too much You know I think it's more or less like It's more like Compassion or sympathy for the whole when you're like this just has to end like she's not having fun maybe a more appropriate question yeah would be have you ever thought and or called out a partner for potentially faking an orgasm with you 100 you can totally tell yeah like i mean it's pretty. I mean, you guys aren't the best actresses.

I mean, let me tell you. You're not fooling anybody. But sometimes you just... Have I told the... The one for me was, as soon as we started having sex, immediately was like, I'm coming.

And I'm like, no, you're... What? Impossible. It was not... Impossible. There was barely any foreplay. It's like a tea kettle on the stove, and it immediately starts whistling. Yeah, right.

Hold on a second. Right. Something's out of whack in the universe here. Come on. Like, what TV show is on in two minutes that you need to get back to? Give me a chance to try, you know? And she's like, The Bachelor's on. Yeah, right.

That's right. I was like, you watch too much porn. Yeah, right. Desensitized I was like, you watch too much porn. Yeah, right. Desensitized. Have you ever fainted? Yeah. Like a concert venue. Overheated, you know?

I think it was like a Lollapalooza in Chicago or something. It's always like the hottest day. And yeah. Have you ever been suspended or fired? Never been fired. I've been suspended from fired never been fired I've been suspended from school yeah yeah what'd you do I mean drinking like this high school yeah I got off to a fast start and now like by the time I got to college I'm like I'm kind of kind of tired but yeah um got suspended there got suspended for

one time in at a college for getting in a fight in a fight yeah yeah i was a lot of fights no no no no did you win what was it about so i was actually dating this girl and she was from chicago and we were leaving leaving the bar together. And there were three guys that kind of came up to us. And one of the guys, he went to high school with her in Chicago. So he knew her. And he didn't like the idea that she's dating me or something. And then there were these two other guys that didn't go to the school.

So I end up dropping her off at her dorm. And I was in another dorm i go back and like three of them were like waiting for me like it was just kind of like that fight or flight moment this is like on camera like right in like the commons area yeah and i just didn't even think about it so yeah i got a good couple on the first one and the other guys just kind of jetted thank God cuz I think if they would have stood their ground I would have gotten stomped and then that guy actually he transferred to Green Bay Wisconsin huh did you get that on tape cuz like I mean I'm sure the security videos have I would have wanted that moment yeah yeah I watch that back but

this is where daddy like took down all all right dudes yeah no i'm definitely i'm definitely not a fighter but i mean there's some times where it's like you know you can't be you tried everything and you know just it just has to happen sometimes do you like it that many women in bachelor nation are referring to you as daddy um it's a little bit odd it's strange um zaddy is something that gets thrown around you don't know what zaddy is i just learned this too i think it doesn't even have to be i mean west the the younger girls here because i think it's it's do you do you guys know what that is the younger girls what are you trying to say yeah well i think it I think it's a newer term that wasn't in our lexicon. Yeah, it went from like damn daddy to like zam zaddy.

And I can't exactly explain why, but it's just a vibe thing. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even think you have to be like have a child. No. Either. Certainly not. Yeah.

I think it's because at first I thought. Are you into that? Having a child? No. Being called daddy or zaddy by someone you're dating. No. But with the right person, maybe.

I'm leaving the door open here. The definition of zaddy is great. It's a sexually attractive man, especially an older one who is fashionable or charismatic. Yeah. Well, how about that? Do you find yourself to be a sexual person?

Yeah, I totally am. I mean, how can you not be? A lot of people aren't sexual. Yeah. No, I'm totally affectionate. Totally. I mean, it's essential to have a good relationship. You got to be out there.

I don't think I'm fashionable though. Like I will say that. Like, no thanks. Like Riley, have you been watching Paradise? I haven't been catching up on it as much as I should. How do you, how's it going? It's wildly entertaining. Really?

Yeah. I mean, I've been rooting for some of my guys. Riley, there's a gentleman. Yeah, I know Riley. Yeah. His move was to, he's a chin grabber as he explained. And I'm not, but it works for him do you have a go-to makeup move like on a first date or a kiss or um how do you sweep the ladies off their feet like if you were going to be the bachelor what could we expect to see a lot

of when it came comes to Michael's embrace I don't know um what would be my move I don't know. What would be my move? I don't know. I'd have to get like a survey monkey out there and try to collect some hard data. Just go up to them and be like, I'm a zaddy. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I'd probably say sometimes I'll bite a lip.

Okay. That's a good move. A nice, easy easy one gentle one not like hold on to it and stretch it out like a fruit roll-up or something like you gotta let go buddy let the fish off the hook final question before i let you go uh what would be one thing is a misconception about you or people find surprising once they really get to know you like if for the people you let in on the show or just like in real life in life i mean i think in real life people aren't necessarily they people don't have a like preconceived notion of who you are until you

meet them on the show you know if you looked at like the whole season season, I look like this okie-dokie neighbor next door. And that's mainly because most of all the conversations I'm having with Katie, they don't require humor. They're actually deep, serious conversations. It's not a comedy. Right. No, we are not doing a comedy here. And so those are all very real moments. But I find the humor in everything. I've got a really dark sense of humor um you know i yeah i think people are like

you know he's you know boring or too tight or one thing and that's completely opposite so you're not mr rogers i'm not mr rogers no i mean you do have a some sort of band. Yeah. Mr. Rogers wouldn't have that. People had... Where is that from? I get a lot of questions about the tattoo.

It's my only one, actually. And this is like a universal sign of grief and loss. So if you ever see people that do have bands, typically on the upper part of their forearm, it is that they've lost somebody significant. You got that after you lost Laura. So here's, yeah, here's the thing. I got this in December of 2018.

I'm driving from Akron to Delray Beach because we were getting some investigational treatment down there. And prior to doing that, Laura and I had a conversation about getting a tattoo and forever Laura's like and I actually like tattoos a lot but you know you have to pick the right one it has to mean something you don't just get it and she was like you know tattoos are for white trash and I'm like relax like they're great and so towards the end she was actually wanting to get one. And so we were actually going to get one together. And so when I was driving down to Akron, I stopped in, um, uh, like West Palm and actually

got this done. And I knew I was going to do that. She was going to get like three strands of rope that were like tied into knot, um, something like that. And unfortunately she was unable to get that but i'm so happy that i did this because it means so much and it facilitates a conversation that often continues to bring her up that's great yeah how about yours uh they're all members of my family uh except for a few other ones that have other personal significance yeah

like this is my dog i like the black ink like i would never do color ink i don't think yeah i can't say that i'll never do it but i don't see i like the black yeah for sure there's part of me that's thinking now that i have this that I probably concentrate everything on one arm because I do love it and you know this is like the beginning of a chapter and then everything else is like built upward yeah we can get Michael tatted up yeah a little teardrop zaddy get daddy get daddy a teardrop now when you start referring to yourself as daddy yeah i don't know that's a problem i mean i'm not who are we it's not it's not for us to decide let's just throw it out in the world michael and let them eat it uh michael it's been a real pleasure thanks my man i'm sure we could

talk a lot more but for the sake of time we're gonna let you go thanks again this has been a blast i hope uh whatever you decide to do with your life I hope it's a great success and I think it will be and if we don't have the pleasure of seeing you again on our TV on behalf of bachelor nation thank you for being such a nice change of pace and offering some nice perspective and thank you for the happy and sad tears yeah uh they were they were quite nice and uh maybe maybe it won't be the last time uh give it some more thought if it's still an option and uh you know it's interesting because hearing you talk about being the bachelor everyone goes on to be on tv and I have no problem with that. And, you know, for different reasons,

you obviously are taking an incredibly pragmatic approach and it seems like the TV element, while I'm sure it would be exciting for you as well, would be not as a big of priority and which would be a real fun thing to watch. Yeah. Someone who even more reluctantly than most people. Catch all of its awkward glory would would be the bachelor but whatever you decide for yourself thanks uh it will be for the right

reasons that's right you know it'll have you know but whatever uh it's been a pleasure thanks guys for listening don't forget to send in your questions at ask nick at cast me.com cast with a k for ask Nick episodes. And if nothing else, we will see you back on Monday.