The Viall Files - E317 Ask Nick - It Doesn’t Have To Mean Something

Episode Date: September 13, 2021

On today's episode of Ask Nick, our first caller was cheated on by her husband and is still wanting to work it out but he refers to her as his "fall back plan." Our second caller is a guy in a situationship who wants to date someone who just wants to be  friends with benefits because she has someone else she is also interested in and is off the heels of a divorce. Our third caller is dealing with an ex who won’t stop texting and calling her to the point where it is bordering on harassment. Finally, we speak to a woman who finds herself dating someone who, after 8 months of dating, still has some reservations that are starting to make her feel insecure.  “He is daring you to find something better than him.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  For merch please visit www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: PayPal: http://www.paypal.com/VIALL  to see terms and learn more about how to earn $10 cashback Each & Every: http://www.eachaandevery.com/VIALL use promo code VIALL30 to get 30% off your first purchase.  Obe Fitness: http://www.obefitness.com and use the code VIALL listeners a FREE one-month trial. Marley Spoon: http://www.MarleySpoon.com and use promo code VIALL to get $100 off over your first four orders. Episode Socials:  Viall Files @viallfiles Nick Viall @nickviall See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Ask Nick edition. I am your host Nick joined by the wonderful team and Chrissy Alley and Amanda it is however with great sadness and disappointment that our beloved producer Chrissy has decided to join a superhero crime-fighting team and is leaving the vile files decided does she want to be a crime fighter i don't i don't really know why um but anyways chrissy's leaving us so do you would you like to uh what's your uniform gonna be i don't know but that's the reason to leave right it's probably gonna be

purple sometime definitely a cape and some kind of mask. But are you just going to laugh them to death or, you know, just. Yeah, I'm going to go around and laugh at people's face. You know what? I'm done. I'm done committing my crimes. Maybe you and Blake can team up, you know, wildlife people. Me and who? Blake.

Katie's Blake. Oh, yeah. I think I'm OK. You don't want Blake to be your new co-worker i'll take michael anyways yeah chrissy is becoming a park ranger so um she's just got a superhero today yeah well i was kidding about that but i'm serious you know we are it's park ranger you got a passion for the trees i get it i have a passion for that you know only you can prevent forest fires nick yeah only you nobody else uh well we love you chrissy we uh can't thank you enough for all the work you've done on the show all the guests you've brought and and your joy of life chrissy with with us for a few more episodes before she tells us to fuck off and uh joins the circus of crime fighters

that'll be that'll be the last day i'll just say like fuck off i'm out uh we we have a great episode for you today um i think i i i'm i don't know if i'm going to die on this vine. Someone sent me an Instagram post, probably I presume after our Bachelor in Paradise recap with the wonderful Ali Barthwell. If you haven't listened to it, check it out. But we had mentioned briefly that while disgusting and disappointing and not cool, and certainly manipulative,

that it wasn't gas lighting what we saw between brendan and partner piper obviously you know people didn't necessarily always agree with that but like we talked with dr solomon and we talked with dr diane i just we gotta stop with this uh defining well one something's not, here's my problem with why, with this misdiagnosis with gaslighting. One, as we learned from Dr. Solomon, it's not even in their manual of things you're supposed to diagnose. And yet society is now taking the phrase gaslighting and attribute it to a type of like emotional relationship uh abuse um which

yeah if you are gaslighting someone i would agree that would be a form of an abusive characteristic like true gaslighting right a systematic way of making your partner or anything or someone in your relationship with feel like their reality is not true. And yet we're finding, someone sent me this Instagram post, this large Instagram account, and it says, what does gaslighting sound like? And they gave examples, and they had a guy talking to a woman. And part of the phrases that they defined as gaslighting were someone saying, I was just kidding. Or why are you

getting so defensive? Or apparently saying I never said that is gaslighting to this account. Or you're too young to understand. That's just like condescending. Amanda, you made a great point earlier. Which is just that like that like yeah those are phrases that could be employed by gaslighters but they're not exclusively so it's like just because you're coughing doesn't mean it's covet it could also just be a cough and i think it's like well it's really helpful to bring awareness to various forms of relationship abuse that have like previously existed like in silence and isolation it's when it's not done with respect or like attention to the variance and when there's not when it's not doing it in a nuanced way i think it can cause some real problems especially

think about in your relationship right all of a sudden you're reading this you're reading this instagram account and this instagram account's like you want to know what gaslighting is it's when your partner tells you to move on or you're uh i was just kidding i mean often as we know in relationships we're both not listening to one another we're not paying attention we're in our own feelings and so you're right so all of a sudden we're going to start what labeling our partners as gaslighters and potential abusers and like where does it's just such a slippery slope and it's not solving any problems and we've gone from like this movie about a man who systematically like drove his partner's mind crazy in order to like you know get her inheritance

or whatever and it's now become a societal thing that if your partner you know like again when creative katie was like, it's when you're someone makes you feel like you're doing something wrong. No, that's called an argument. We just need to be really careful about that. I only bring that up on our ethnic episodes because, you know, it's just such a slippery slope. We've become so prone to, you know, through social media, through TikTok. So like, you know, what is gaslighting? What is manipulation? What is a narcissism? And we're spending all this energy trying to diagnose all these people around us. And if, if you've been following this show, um, we spent a lot of effort and time trying to think about what we can do and how we can look at our situations more honestly,

so that we can control what we can control. Like we want to have as much power as we can in any of our situations. And the only thing we really control is how we listen to our partners, how we communicate, the choices we make, whether we want to stay in a situation or whether we want to leave a situation. And, you know, diagnosing everyone around us

is gaslighting is not, it's just not the answer. And like bad behavior exists on a spectrum and nobody is saying that like those lesser or weaker parts of the spectrum aren't still bad, but I think it is important to differentiate and also to include like context because every relationship psychologist talks a lot about like the context of a relationship, the relational-awareness the inter the interactions between two people and this is a very like one sided reductive way of a really important and nuanced issue totally and if if if society was calling gaslighting is this like a type of style that like that fine but like because we're attributing it to a very specific type of like

abuse. Like if, if someone, if you go on the street and, and you were to walk past a couple and you heard someone say, you're gaslighting me, you would be like, Oh my God, what is going on? You know, it's a very, it's become a very, and rightfully so it is a serious accusation. That's kind of the whole point. It is a thing and it's a serious thing. And it's not like having a miscommunication and it's not being condescending. Condescending isn't cool. It's a dick move. You can be rude, but it's not just,

I'm going to die in this vine. I just vine. You mean hell, hell, whatever. What is the phrase? And I'm going to die on this hill. There's a vine one too.

Maybe the divine is shriveling up. Like you heard it from the grape vine. No, you've never, it's okay. Nick is like a fine wine. He's growing on this little vine. Yeah.

Um, all right. We got a great episode for you that I just needed to rant about. Stop, stop with these like random Instagram posts of what's gaslighting. And yeah, God, Colissa, Dr. Solomon. Stop with these like random Instagram posts of what's gaslighting. And God. Call this the Dr. Solomon.

Yeah, so it's like PhD versus infographic. I don't know who's to say. Die on the vine is in the dictionary as an actual phrase, Nicholas. Fuck you too. Chrissy, we're sad to see you go. we're glad you're with us for a couple more episodes um everyone send out your love and appreciation to Chrissy we don't need her anyways it's fine it's fine uh sending your questions at askdickatcastme.com cast with a k Justin Long is back uh to help us break down

Bachelor in Paradise. Get his thoughts and all the Brendan and Piper scandal of it all. Be sure to tune in if the wonderful, he's got a new movie coming out that him and his brother directed and

we'll talk about that as well as his thoughts on all things bachelor in paradise and on wednesday a fantastic episode with the very insightful knowledgeable interesting dr amin who is a psychologist and an expert on the brain and we talk about the brain and how we can take care of our brains and and how we ignore our brain health so much and how we can change that and how much that affects our lives and very fascinating conversation as it relates to our our well-being our relationships so on and so forth so be sure to tune into that always we appreciate you listening don't forget to send your questions i think i mentioned that have a great day whatever i don't know how to end

this intro uh thanks for listening i guess i mentioned that have a great day whatever i don't know how to end this intro uh thanks for listening i guess i don't know i see my follow you on tiktok let's get to our callers there you go yeah let's get to our callers let's ask nick your sexy questions how's it going better know that i get to talk to you, Nick. Thanks for having this podcast. Thanks for listening. What is your name? My name is JC and I'm 32 years old. All right. How can I help JC? So I am four months into a situation with my husband. We have known each other closer to 13 years, been married almost three years. And in May of this year, he has cheated on me. And there's a little backstory as well. Yeah. Out of the blue, blindsided,

had no clue anything was wrong. How did you find out? It was a day in May that he was out till four in the morning, which we don't do. He was out with coworkers and then he got back late and it's like, I couldn't get ahold of him. You know, I was spending my, my night trying to see where he was and he wouldn't communicate back. And so he came back and then he was just different. And for two weeks, he was, he just got weirder and weirder. I came into our house one, one day after work and all of our wedding pictures were turned around and taken down.

Like I didn't know what was going on. And I found out after confrontation basically, because enough was enough and I didn't know what was going on. And then he, of course, you know, told me some backstory. Well,

what I'm calling it is he basically is having like a midlife identity crisis. That's what you're calling it? And why are you calling it that? Why are you calling him a cheater? He cheated on me. Like all of this was dropped on my lap and I was the one trying to get our counselors. We had done some counseling before we got married because of something that happened in the past a decade ago. I mean, it's a long time. It's a long history, but basically all of this was dropped in my lap. I was the one trying to communicate to him, trying to get people, you know, that have helped us in the past. And the next few days he bought

a motorcycle, drained our accounts because we've been trying to get debt free, like trying to do the adulting thing. And I allowed it. I was desperate. I didn't know what was going on. My husband, my best friend became a stranger in moments. So that's why I'm calling it a midlife identity crisis. Before we started this call, you told me that you went to Green Bay for your honeymoon. Was that his idea? O idea ours we're both packer fans okay so you were just as excited oh yeah okay oh yeah and since you found out about the cheating is he it sounds like maybe he's not even all that apologetic or that's that's what's like i've read a lot like i've been doing this personal work and yeah, he was not, he did not call it a mistake for many days. He has not apologized. At all?

Listen, and this was, I don't think it's sincere. I don't think it's. So it's like, I'm sorry, shut up kind of thing. he gets very hostile when he talks to me, but this has basically been so hard on me. I actually, this was my first like heartbreak and it was just blindsiding. And I actually was the one that had made all the concessions. Like I quit my job. I've lost 30 pounds.

I quit my job. I've been living back home. When you say you lost 30 pounds, like healthy 30 pounds or you're not eating. Cause you're sad, not eating. Okay. sad? Not eating. Okay. Detrimental.

Like I actually, the morning that he bought his motorcycle, I collapsed in the shower because I hadn't eaten in days because it was just like, I didn't know how to handle this. I had never been through anything like this where he just walled up and shut me off. You are, you're in therapy right now oh yeah oh yeah i've been seeing my own counselor and then we're both seeing our relationship counselor separate and that's another thing is he keeps kicking the can down the road to when we can start tackling this together i mean you can only work on trust solo for so long. What does your therapist say?

So I have had to bluntly ask them, like, does my husband want me in his life? My counselors, or at least our relationship counselor. And they assure me that, yes, he does. If I ask my husband, he'll just say, yes, but I don't know how it looks. Has your therapist asked you, why do you want your husband in your life i mean yes i they have i mean he's my yeah i mean i i'm still willing to fight for what we have i mean but why i mean i i get till death do us part i get the vowel thing i mean this is sounding like really bad i know i wanted your take on it but it's it's hard because like this is not the man i married and i well i don't understand okay is like if you were to peel back some layers i don't know but you

sound like you there are some other things going on. Maybe it was the man you married. And now he's just comfortable enough to really show you. But he kind of already showed you maybe a handful of times here or there. It was more sporadic. So we, being each other's first legit boyfriend, girlfriend, like we were very green, let's say, and growing up for 13 years together with trials and tribulations we have something special and there was one thing that happened in the past a couple years into us you know being something that he trusted me enough to tell me something that happened in his past uh situation, being from a family where we didn't have secrets or, you know, I mean,

like I didn't know what I was getting into and it came out. And like, so it was like this first betrayal. Well, we had done reconciliation before we got married, done the work, made sure everything was okay. And he said that resentment started bubbling back up. What do you mean it was a first betrayal? Like who betrayed who in this scenario? I betrayed him unknowingly. and he said that resentment started bubbling back up what do you mean it was a first betrayal like who betrayed who in this scenario i i betrayed him unknowingly of the situation so he had told me

this secret he had a secret and you were his girlfriend he trusted you with a lot of trust in me yes new newly you know and okay so green and being in a relationship not knowing how to handle information how did you somebody so a family member um noticed a change in his personality like like he felt like you know it looked like a the weight of the world was off his shoulders the next day and she kept pressing me on what it was and I left it as kind of like kids do dumb things kind of situation and then she took it to a different extreme malicious intent they had this huge family meeting on some stuff that came out and we didn't talk to some family members for years because it just caused this huge, massive thing in their family.

And it was the first time the family members had heard anything of this nature. Basically, something happened between brothers. Yeah, yeah. I get that. And a lot of families have those types of, especially if it's shit that happened in the past. I mean, I think we're better at not hiding shit like that. Wanting to meet your fitness goals, get in the shape that you've always wanted to get into, but you don't want to join an expensive gym

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and you have to be his rock and whatever happened to him long ago like is not an excuse for him to be the way he is to you now. You know, how old are you again i'm sorry 32 okay you know like you saw you have so much in front of you you know and you look like a tortured soul right now and i really feel for you and at some point you just deserve to be happy point you just deserve to be happy with your life you know you deserve to be content whether that's as a single woman looking for her second great love or in love you know whether it's him or someone else like you don't deserve this you don't deserve to have been cheated on you don't deserve this. You don't deserve to have been cheated on. You don't deserve to not only have been cheated on,

to be treated like you're doing something wrong or so helpless because he is so like indifferent to how he hurt you. You don't even know what to do. It's interesting enough. We have like, we talk about gaslighting so much lately and how we misdiagnose it. But in a weird fucked up way, this is like a gaslight in a sense because he's cheating on you.

And he is acting as if somehow you did something like you feel crazy by how he's responding to him cheating on you. And what a helpless, what? You're like, how do you, what do you do with that? So it's like, whoa. Like it's like him cheating on you and how what a helpless what you're like how do you what do you do with that it's just like whoa like it's like some sack on his part right well i was i was in a shock state and i was a mess and so it's really hard because it's like some of that stuff he holds against me even though i was in shock um can i say a couple of things other you know that i've learned from my counselors as well on his part because he is individually seeing our relationship counselor. Two things. I had a conversation with him early on, like weeks into this, where he said,

I'm 95% sure you'll be there when I'm ready for you. And he said to me I don't know if it's selfish to call you a fallback plan and I'm his wife and I think he was shooting his shot with this girl and I'm just like you know at arm's length destroyed so that's been like really hard and I don't I don't know your take on those comments well I mean it's just a dick thing to say you know i you're his wife yes but and vows the vows are only important to the degree in which the people treat them as such if he doesn't value the vows that he said to you doesn't really matter how much that meant to you when you said it to him and you can't make up for his lack of effort in the relationship you can't you can only do 100 of your half right and i think you just need to get to a place right now you all you're caring

about is fixing the problem making this marriage work asking your therapist and his therapist like do we have a shot asking him you're just at the mercy of him and everyone around you you have no power you're powerless yeah i have no control you have no control, you're powerless. Yeah, I have no control. You have no control. I mean, even like, you know, like the one, like when we get cheated on, you know, and we find out in a weird fucked up way that gives us even some power because we can be like, you did something bad

and they're going to be like, I'm sorry. And they feel like, but you're not even getting that. No, no, I can't. That's like makes it worse. But as soon as you accept the possibility that you can leave him and be happier not only still happy but happier in the long run you will instantly get so much of that power back call his bluff he's daring you to find something better to him and i'll tell you what there's plenty that it's better than him.

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But it's just so many contradictory things that are coming out right now. And so it's like. Well, I'll tell you why. Because right now all he's caring about is figuring out him. He might be talking to a couple of therapists, but I don't know what he's saying, but it sounds like from coming from you. His priority is his needs. Fig out even being honest whatever i'm just saying he's not being honest i've found stuff just recently that's like you're not even being

honest with yourself how do you expect to but that's not my point my point is his priority is him and your priority is the relationship yeah so you know it doesn't matter how much therapy he gets if his priority is him it's him you know you're not even in like the equation it doesn't sound like you know he literally said like it's a fallback plan and what is it going to take for you to start focusing on you well i have been okay but like does that has been four months are you open to the possibility of leaving him and filing for divorce and not waiting around for him and not? I have a plan. What's that plan?

I have a plan finally, which has taken months to get to. So I have been removed from my home. Okay. And my plan, I'm hoping this Thursday or Friday, actually, this is how recent this is of getting a different job to bring me back to my home. And I want to kick him out because he hasn't had to be uncomfortable to really realize what's at stake okay but you're part of your plan hold on your part your plan is still trying to figure out a way to get through to him i've had to be super uncomfortable i know i've had to realize a lot but you aren't going to get your power you're not going to get your power. You're not going to get any of your power that you're so desperately trying to get and

you're not going to get any control that you're so desperately trying to get and you have the right to have. You deserve that until your priority becomes your needs because you know, like your relationship is it's like it can't be worked on because he isn't a part of this he's not focused on the relationship it's not doing you any good focusing all this energy on the relationship he's not he's not focused on it right now it's not even on his radar he's not focusing at all is my guess. So your waste, all this energy you're putting into the relationship, unfortunately is waste.

It's just being wasted. You're, you're just throwing it away. You're, you're spending all this time in the kitchen and you're immediately throwing it down the garbage disposal. No one's going to eat it. You know, nothing. So even just to see, I mean, cause I'll get back to my comfort zone. I think it's with a new job and see where pieces fall.

This new job, are you doing, do you like the job? Is it a better job? It's hopefully a better job with more mobility, upward mobility. I think I just really want you to try to focus on you right now. I mean, I don't know. Like, listen, it's just like this guy just seems like such a mess right now. Yeah. I mean, he seems incredibly toxic.

I don't even know who he is anymore. Sure. Yeah. Well, either way, it's still who he is. It's not as confusing as you want it to believe it is at this point. It's just the answer. You would rather think you're confused and face the truth is that you married the wrong guy

but you're not alone we've we've all we all have some bad pickers and you got you know you got you got screwed over unfortunately like you're a good person and someone bad, you know, you didn't deserve it, but it still happened. You don't have to find meaning in it. Yeah. But you can do something about it. You can learn from it. You can move on. It's up to you. It's got to make sense. I mean, each day it gets a little easier to see what the life would be like, you know, without, but I still need to handle it together with him. It's going to be better is what it is.

It's going to be a scary, it'll be a lonely, but it will be better. I don't know what, unless I'm missing something. This sounds terrible. It's been hard. It's been heart wrenching. But he's doing it. So again, you can start getting angry at him. And a life without him is better than a life with him.

So many not guys like him. Yeah, it's daunting. It's daunting to think what it would take to get back to... And you can never go back, but just the work that it would take also. It's crazy. Well, thank you for your advice. Stop wondering if he's going to ever take you back.

Find the strength to move on if you can. Give your loyalty to people. And when it comes to this new job and this plan that you have, it's not about him. It's about you. What is this job going to do for you? You know, he doesn't deserve what you've given him. And you know what?

You don't have to grit anything up at this point because you know what? Like you said, you've given him every opportunity to make it right. He didn't do anything about it, so now you have no regrets. You can now focus on moving on with conviction without any regrets nothing would have been different you give them every fucking opportunity and then some believe believing yourself you i mean really you can do this i you know the choice is yours i really believe that it's just it's gonna take some time and it's gonna be tough but you can do it.

Thank you. All right. Best of luck. How's it going? Hey, Nick, how you doing? Good. What's your name? Josh. Josh. How old are you? I'm 32. How can I help? Yeah, Nick. So, uh, I've been seeing this girl. I'm in a situation ship right now. I been seeing this girl i met her about 10 months ago okay we hit things off pretty quick i mean a lot of stuff in common so some backstory with her she was married for about i want to say like eight years separated for about two and a half years okay how old is she she is 30. okay and basically like when her and i started talking you know she was very upfront with me. She was like, hey, one of the first things she said was like, hey, like I'm this new dating things like new for me.

It's like I have more experience with it for sure. You know, I've been using online dates, dating apps and stuff like that. So definitely more experience than her. I mean, she was married. So I was like, that's cool. I was like, no problem. And she basically, you know, told me like, hey, I just want to tell you, like I was married before. So got that out of the way off the bat. I was like, okay, girl's making a good impression.

She's honest with me from the beginning. So we start talking after about our third date, we had this great time and she threw a curve ball at me. She basically said like, Hey, so I really like you. I like spending time with time with you i she was like really nervous and stuff when she was coming we were like having a talk in my car after we went out to eat and she goes like how do you feel about seeing other people and on your third date yeah yeah it's our third date at this point but she wanted to keep hanging out with you she did she did yeah sounds like she's on bachelor in paradise yeah yeah so uh all right what'd you say what'd you say i mean to be honest with you it was like a first for me like i never experienced

that i mean i dated in my 20s like i mean normally like i'd be like yeah okay but now that i'm like older like and i'm in my 30s i'm a more serious relationship you know what i mean so yeah i mean like it's only the third date too. I'm just curious. It's kind of weird and bizarre because it's not that abnormal for people who are dating, who maybe have only been on a third date, to still be dating other people. Yeah. Nowadays, people are taking fucking six-12 months to define a relationship

you yourself well we haven't gotten the whole story you're in a 10-month situation ship and yet on the third date she's like trying to define expectations around the right it's like so i don't know this is kind of but hey she said she's new she's trying to communicate maybe it's a little off i don't know i mean i i had an honest response and i said wow i wasn't expecting that i mean we've you know i know we've been hanging out because we were we were like talking on the phone a lot like i'm talking like hour long conversation like not not sure like hour hours long conversations on the phone and stuff like that you know i kind of made a joke of it and i was like oh way to bring it up at the end of the date you know what i mean so did she say it like hey i really like you and i want to see where this

goes but like i don't know just like i was married for eight years so like i don't know let me yeah so i'll give you some context i'll explain exactly what she said so she said like she said this and then i said well i said you know what's on your mind because it's because she was like really like she was in tears like telling me this stuff like she was like crying like like she almost like was scared of like hurting me and stuff like that i was like i was like Cause it's, cause she was like really like, she was in tears, like telling me this stuff. Like she was like crying, like, like she almost like was scared of like hurting me and stuff like that. And I was like, I was like, listen, it's all right. I was like, I get it. You know, I've dated long enough that, you know, I, I know like, or whatever, but I was like, you know, I just, it just, I just wasn't expecting that at the end of the date, that's all.

And then I said, I mean, are you, are you seeing anyone else? And she was like, not exclusively, but there's this guy that I care about and he like lives across the country. Okay. Right. Like, so, so we're both East coast people where she, uh, he lives on the West coast. Right. So then I was like, all right. And then I didn't really want to like pry too much into the guy's situation. Cause you know, like, I like this girl. So I was like, all right. And then like, I didn't talk to her for a few days. Um, I did take her home and I was like, you know, kind of like, you know, let me think about things and stuff like that. So then a few days later we talked and you know, I, I, I again,

told her, I was like, Hey, I'm sorry if I reacted. I just didn't know how to react. I'll be honest with you. I just didn't know how to react. And I was, I was, yeah, fully transparent. And then I said, uh, I was like, listen, I like you. I, I definitely see this, you know, if you, if you're down to continue hanging out, I'm down for that. then like about uh three days later she came over and like we hung out again went out to dinner and then like hung out a few times after that actually i would say her fifth date that's when we had sex okay so question yeah between the time so up until she tried to like she popped this like hey do you want to see other people there's this guy you describing as like you went on three dates, but it was pretty intense

in terms of like how much you were talking. Right. Right. Did the intensity continue or did the intensity, did you keep hanging out? But things were like, you know what? Yeah, we can hang out, but maybe we don't need to talk all day, every day. Or did that also continue? That also continued.

Yeah. It was, it was straight up. Like we were talking, we were texting every day, like talking every day, you know, making plans to hang out, go out to dinner, go for hikes and stuff. Well, so we'll get into the, but just for the benefit of hindsight. Okay. I would have recommended to like, that's cool that you want to keep hanging out with her. And that's, yeah, that's super mature.

You're like, you know what? You're right. We're dating. Yeah. Explore your options. I kind you want to keep hanging out with her. And that's, yeah, that's super mature. You're like, you know what? You're right. We're dating. Yeah. Explore your options. I kind of want to keep hanging out. I'm not in love with you either. I don't know where this is going.

That's super cool. But it might've made more sense for you to be like, but maybe let's slow things down. You know, like I don't want to get you to choose me because I'm going to like bombard you with me. And you know, not that you were doing that, but she was,

you know, an equal party, but like it might've been beneficial for you to say like, it's all good. I really appreciate you telling me this. And I definitely want to keep hanging out with you, but like, you know,

like I want you to do whatever it is that you want to do. Maybe let's slow down a little bit and made yourself slightly less available because that's what she's asking for you know and not you didn't have to like be like be immature about it or anything but that might have been a more appropriate response to that right sure because she's changing the dynamics so that dynamic should have changed at least a little bit. Yeah. So I agree. All right, go ahead. So on the fifth day you hook up. Yeah, we hooked up. So it did progress. So we kept having sex after that, but it was like, it wasn't like the, so here's one thing she also said, I mean, she was married for so long, right. That she didn't know, like like casual she was trying to define it as casual but it was like i mean i've been on casual dates you know i think most guys have right and it's like when we're casual we you know when we're sleeping with somebody we're sleeping with them and we're like always like you know i was treating her more like i was like so i'll give you a perfect example like when we had sex like instead of like her like you know kicking her out at the

end of the night i was kind of like yeah, yeah, you can stay over, you know, like sleep over my house, whatever. Yeah. You know, go home tomorrow. And she, she like cuddle with me and like, you know, it was cool. Like, you know, we were just cuddling, having pillow talk and all that stuff. We were like talking, like we actually talk about real stuff. You know what I mean?

Having conversations. Like it wasn't just sex. Yeah. You liked her and you were like, I could see myself dating this girl. And maybe somewhere more casual in the past, you might've been like busy day tomorrow like you know yeah exactly exactly so yeah exactly so like you know i i would just uh you know like the next day like i would just like you know be like hey like before like she would start getting ready to go home or whatever and then i'd be like hey you want a cup of coffee or something and you know can i make you some breakfast before you go you

know what i mean and then she'd you know she'd like stick around hang out and then like she'd leave you know so so fast forward so like we're you know we're on this pattern for a few months now um and then at any point between now and so we fast forward a couple months now you're sleeping together you're kind of playing boyfriend and girlfriend but have there been any updates and conversations about like this other guy or boundaries or anything are you just like pretending that doesn't exist there that's that's what i'm getting to yeah so so but so far no so far no so far no yeah one of the last times we had i think it was the last time actually that we that we slept together um she was like really nervous to like have sex and then she was kind of like hey maybe we should slow things down right and i mean we did end up sleeping together that night anyway but like you know like it was just like i was like well i was

like what do you mean you know i was like what's going on like what's going through your mind like you know talk to me like tell me what's up and then she was like i you know i she started saying like i don't want i don't want to hurt you and, you know, I, I don't really know what I want right now. And like, this is all new for me. And I was like, I totally get that. I totally respect that. do you want? Like, I didn't define it. Like I just said, like, what, what do you see this as, you know, are we friends with benefits? You know what I mean? Like, cause I kind of need to know, you know what I mean? So she was like, she was like, yeah, like I want to be friends with benefits. And I was like, okay. You know? And then since we agreed on that, then that's when we had sex. And then like, it was basically like the same, then we went back to the same thing. Then, then, then like, did you really want that when you agreed to it at the time i was okay with it

at the time but what did you want not what you were okay with i to be honest with you i i definitely want to date this girl okay like 100 that's good to say it's good to like yeah no i know it feels yeah like i don't want yeah like no i'm very i'm very like i'm a transparent person like i very i you know my friends know that about me like i'm'm very open and stuff like, yeah, I do. I just, I didn't want to scare her off and be like, you know, Hey, let's date. You know what I mean? So like, I was just kind of like, let's see how this, you know, let's see how this plays out.

And I want to ask you, cause we, this is great, right? We get, obviously we get male callers a lot. We get, we get more female callers, but a lot of the guys who call are more on the inexperienced side or whatever and so like here you are you're dating you're good looking guy you're out there you you know and yet a lot of what you're saying a lot of the women who've called in have found themselves in a very similar position right and here And here you are, a transparent guy. As you say, you're an open book. But when you find yourself in a situation like this, you chose not to be open

and you chose to worry about being afraid of scaring her off, even though you had already been hanging out for five, six months now, right? Sleeping together. This is not a rush to judgment decision to say, I like you. Yeah. And I get you've been divorced, but like at some point, like you either need to like me back or you're not.

And that's, but I want you to know I like you. And you chose the, I mean, I guess we could have sex. Yeah. Which a lot of, like a lot of, and I only, like a lot of people, we all, like men and women are doing this. And I think it's a reminder. Thanks for falling on the sword. Yeah. But it's a good lesson.

But yeah, like I just think it's important to like articulate that you wanted to date her and you chose to accept less than what you wanted which we talk a lot about yeah i mean listen like she definitely needs or wants to be a fuck boy right now and the only way to like get a fuck boy's attention is to fight fire with fire right and i don't think you should really do that because that would be kind of toxic energy. I think you just have to have the willpower to say no, to set boundaries. I get you like her. I get you, you know, but like you're caught up in this game. I mean, she's doing it all like she's being a master fuck boy right now.

You know, she's saying just enough and she's showing signs of maturity, but also like sprinkled with a bunch of selfishness. Right. And she's being just enough honest to be like, I told you and being upfront, but like still giving into her own needs. Like when she wants, she, when she misses you, she reads out when she wants to have sex with you, she'll have sex with you and you're just always there you know you're always saying yes you're always available and you're you know and i get it you're just like well i'm a nice guy and i'm like i like her what's wrong with hanging out with a girl i like and she's being up front with me so okay you know you know it's my choices and but she you know

girl or guy we're all just humans right and you don't have you know like i know a lot of guys and me are more notoriously known for doing what she's doing to you but like there's a lot of a lot of fuck boys that are girls out there we actually said that to an earlier caller and and so she's being selfish and and she doesn't look like doesn't sound like she wants a boyfriend right now and maybe doesn't need a boyfriend but she's also likes the comfort you provide the security or whatever when you are hanging out and he often he provides this and maybe there's an element of excitement because he's on the east coast and we're no matter what she says about like that's

not it there is definitely an element of you being local and convenient and you're filling that role and and he's you know the fact that you she's able to like well you know he's on the east coast and i can't really date him because i don't want a long distance she probably doesn't want to date either of you right now the only way she's going to wake up and realize that you're the guy she wants to date is to think that you might be gone that she lost you there's nothing more you can do to get her to like you you've i mean it's been going on for 10 months you've been hanging hooking up you've tried to take her on dates you've been you've been compassionate and empathetic to the fact that she got out of a divorce like that ship has sailed that's no longer

a valid excuse you know what i'm saying and then if it is if it's shit that she's still dealing with it then then that shit she needs to work on outside of any relationship with anyone certainly not with you right yeah so like it's no longer this is not like she's like hey i really like you but just be patient with me because you know i had some shit going on but like i like you and i want to be with you and that's fine people can work on their own shit while they are getting to know someone else. But she's using an excuse to be selfish. And, and that's,

it's not an excuse to be selfish just because we have some, you know, our bullshit is not a valid reason to be selfish. And that's what she's doing right now. That's how she's using it. Right. It's no longer an excuse. Like,

congratulations. You were divorced, joined the club, you know, know like and maybe she has some shit to work on but you've been patient and kind and and more than empathetic and now you just need to say no to her and you definitely don't reach out and you definitely don't like make the connect even if she reaches out to you i mean the best if i were your friend and i think to think of you as my friend, I would tell you to just be like, hey, listen, be super chill. You know, I think you great. And if I haven't made it clear to this point, I really dig you. In fact, I'd love to make you my girlfriend.

Put yourself out there. It's going to hurt a little bit if she rejects you, but you won't have any regrets. But you need to say it. You need to get it out there. If you haven't said it already, you need to put it out there if you haven't said it already you need to put it out there and and make her choose and she probably will you know if she's like if she's a fuck boy she's gonna say no at first and she's gonna be like i can't and then you'd be like cool and then you walk away and short of her knocking on your door and saying i'm ready to commit to us i want to be with you and yeah we might hurt each hurt each other, but like this, I'm afraid I'm going to hurt you.

Nah, it's bullshit. That's a line. She's giving you a line. She's giving me a line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so my buddy told me too.

Yeah. 100%. So, you know, like, listen, she's been through a lot, whatever. She's not a bad person. She's just needs to be a little selfish right now. And you've allowed her to be more selfish than she

deserves and part of you liking her is definitely not being able to have her to a certain extent i'm sure she's nice and great but like you know you know just like you know yeah it's addicting it's addicting for sure and like i just uh and i mean she she does know how i feel i mean at the end of the day i will say like she knows i did did say, you know, she knows I like her. And I think at that point, that last time we hung out was when I just said, I just like literally we just had a friendly hangout, kept those friends. I even like, like, you know, I didn't even pay for the bill. Like, I just was like, we're splitting this, you know, like, and then and I was just like, hey, it was good seeing you. Have fun on your vacation with your family or whatever you're doing with your friends talk to you later and then i and then i left and then at that moment

like i was just like yeah i'm probably gonna start this no no contact thing and just not talk to her until she reaches out yeah and if the reaching out part is that's the important part if she reaches out she needs to be coming 100 like she can't a la she you do not let her back in your life on her terms she's you've already done that she's done that she's gotten right it's what do you want out of this and you should get everything you want out of this for her to be back in your life so if you want to go ahead so so what if i what if i do if like she she comes back she just tries to do the whole like hey how have you been like let's hang out you know no no you know i like you it's great i'm glad you're doing well i still like you if you're willing to give this a shot i mean a real shot i

mean like full on then we can hang out and if not it's okay but i have lots of friends i don't want to be your friend i don't even need you to be my fuck buddy i'm doing really well in that department you know whatever the truth is it doesn't matter and like nah nah zero you all of her none you've already given her plenty of half of you and you've getting you've gotten you're giving all of you and you're getting half of her she's you know no more it's not you know and i'm telling you and you're getting half of her. She's, you know, no more. It's not, you know. And I'm telling you, this could go on for years if you don't listen to my advice.

I mean, I have a lot. That's why I called. Yeah. That's why I called. I wanted some outside perspective. I've had a lot of friends that have been in a situation like that and they'll just, and it's always the same thing i just gotta have a relationship and you know whatever and and as long as you let her

be selfish she will be selfish you brought up you brought up a good point too about that like about being selfish and using the whole like divorce thing as an excuse to like that really stood out to me too like you know because that, cause I, and maybe I think that like looking back, like maybe that was the reason why I didn't tell her right away because like, I was like, well, you know, she's divorced. She's like, you know, she's got a marriage. Like she's trying to be a nice, empathetic guy. And you know, and she's not like a bad, like we all, we all will continue to use excuses as long as people allow us to use them. Even after that excuse has expired and until someone holds her accountable she's going to keep being like a divorce you know what can i do

and people like oh poor you you know like but at some point that shit expires and you have to hold her accountable and until you do she is not going to hold herself accountable yeah zero tolerance policy on this one you've done enough you know you gotta stand your ground man yeah if you're not you you you could be this guy in a year well i mean yeah that's that's that's the thing i gotta want to i don't want to be that guy anymore you know i definitely want to like you know i have been doing things for myself though you know i've been like going to the gym working out like hanging out with friends you know going out as much as i can going on dates when i can spending time with my family like i'm doing that it's just you know creeps up on me like that i get it but my guess is she's a total liability

right now she has some shit to do and i don't know what happened in her her life or her divorce or whatever but maybe she didn't process that divorce you know i don't know if she's in her like you know who knows but like she's acting like she has some shit to figure out and she hasn't figured it out yet and you've tried you give it your best effort but like she's for you she's a liability and that's why i mean like she would have to be very clear what she wanted for you to even listen because short of that it's it's just you're just going to be something that she's going to need for a moment and then when she doesn't need that anymore she's going to put do the same bullshit again that's that's exactly what i've been feeling honestly like i think that's that's what i was like trying to come to the realization i was like

well you know maybe i was just a rebound you know know? Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Yeah. In a way, not, you know, you added value for sure. And that's all right. Like, no regrets. You liked her. You gave it a shot. You invested in it and it didn't work out.

You're still young. You find, you know. Yeah. It's no regrets. It's just, you know, I guess the thing that shocked me was like how close we got, you know, like about a minute. Like, I don't tell my fuck buddies about, you know, like what's going on in my family, you know, like maybe,

and she was saying things like, maybe you'll meet my sister one day. I think you guys would be best friends and stuff like that. You know, it's like, she's like breadcrumbing me. Yeah. Watch out for maybe.

Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Again, she's, she's definitely in a fuck boy stage of her life. I feel like I'm getting breadcrumbs, you know,

probably. Yeah, sure. Whatever. All the, all the things fuck boys do, she's doing it. She's a fuck boy. Yeah. boy stage of her life i feel like i'm getting breadcrumbs you know probably yeah sure whatever all the all the things fuck boys do she's doing it she's a fuck boy and that's okay she's in a fuck boy stage but now you need to accept that and move on you know it's okay like it's probably good for you you'll be more even more empathetic if to you know i'm sure you fuck boy someone before i have my 20s yeah it's fine i didn't expect it i just didn't expect it in the 30s you know okay well until you find your person and that could be tomorrow or it could be five years from now it just be a little a lot of back and forth

but you have your answer here your answer is clear she is definitely not it for you unless something drastically changes on her part and she needs to do kind of all the work. Cause you've, you've done all the work already. You can't be like, it's going to be very clear. Yeah.

I'm ready for you. I, here's what I regret. Here's what I've learned. Here's why I think I'm ready here. What is it? Why I wouldn't remember before. I hope you're still interested in me.

Let's make it work. That's all needs to come from her. Not you. Yeah. I appreciate that. you're still interested in me let's make it work that all needs to come from her not you yeah i appreciate that yeah all right it's just time to move on i think it's okay and like i said it's most likely it's a fucking mess for you you're you it's a landmine for you and i'm sure she's great overall but she needs to work through some shit out yeah i mean it's just uh i guess i guess the whole three month of not talking to her kind of got to me a little bit.

So, and then I kind of feel antsy and I'm like, oh, I don't want to call her. Don't fucking do it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate the vote of confidence for sure. All right. Definitely don't do it. I will not call her.

All right. I will not reach out. Good job. All right. And just keep on dating. Keep going. And eventually, like, it's just, that's the thing. will not call her i'll not reach out uh good job all right and just keep on dating keep going eventually like it's just that's the thing it's just it's so easy to get discouraged because between her and some other girl you're going to be super into might be 30 fucking 40 dates i don't

know you know true so but just be patient i will all right buddy all right take care thanks for I will. All right, buddy. All right. Take care. Thanks for calling. All right. Thanks. How's it going? Good. How are you? Good. What's your name? Jenny. I'm 23. Jenny, how can I help? Backstory a little bit. Me and my ex dated for four and a half years, like all through high school and a little bit into college. I kind of decided that I wanted to go into college, not dating anyone because I was in my 20s. And you know, he was, he was older than me, he was kind of finished already. And I didn't really get the experience because he was kind of like, well, I don't want you doing that. And I don't want you doing that. And that's not the other. And I didn't really like that. So I left, then I started dating someone new, maybe like a

few months later, we spent three years together. We moved in and we broke up like after two weeks of me living there. It was like a weird situation. And then I contacted my ex maybe three or four months after. Maybe. Yeah. And he. Why?

Because he had been messaging me a few times before then, like trying to get into contact with me. But obviously I was in a relationship. So like I just obviously boundaries. I'm not going to do that. Sure. But he was. So he was popping in.

So it wasn't completely random that you reached out to him. No, like he was randomly like messaging me every so often. He would try and call me like on block numbers and stuff like. So after a few months of you being single, you got bored and lonely enough to respond to one of his messages. Perhaps. Yes fine it's okay he like replied back and like he was like talking to me about um how he had kind of grown up a little bit since then and i was like i mean we can kind of take it like slow or whatever like not really go like driving too deep into anything right now because I just

got out of a relationship that obviously lasted for a while I wasn't looking for anything serious again and we had already had previous issues that like we had addressed like in that initial conversation the initial conversation was probably like an hour going over like everything that kind of went wrong and why I left and like his just like toxic behaviors of like kind of putting me down in front of people and like just acting a certain way because I was younger than he was and he felt like he could I guess I'm not really sure how much older was he he's like four years older than me okay so you're just kind of condescending either on purpose or on accident right and it would just be like, well, you just

don't understand that part of life yet. Or, yo, you just don't get that. And I'd be like, all right. And I'd be like, well, I still want to go do that. So thank you. As time went on, it was like the first couple of months was fine. And then I guess he just got comfortable again. And he started pretty much asking all these questions about like why I wasn't responding fast enough or why I wasn't spending as much time with him or like things like that but like I'm in school full-time so like I don't really have time like to like sit here and coddle people every five minutes if that makes sense which is why I said that I didn't have time in the first place and why I said I kind of wanted to take it slow and just

like work on things but he was like immediately wanting me to like commit and like almost half the messages that like he sent me it's like I was just trying to get you to commit I was trying to get you to do this that and the other and I was like I already told you like that I didn't want that so like I don't really know where the miscommunication came from but yeah it's just been like this big mess and then as I said before he just messaged me like maybe 10 minutes before this conversation so um he still messages me on and off for like several weeks and like won't stop calling me or texting me so these are all messages from him yeah are you not responding and these are just all from him yeah without any response i yeah i responded one time and that

was at the very end like my missed call logs are mostly him and i think i've had over 100 missed calls in the past like so month and a half it's a little nuts no and you're worried that you're an asshole i mean slightly and like i just don't know like what how to like communicate better I guess like I'm just like I've communicated everything that like in the beginning I was up front about my feelings like I okay you because you sent me pages like literal pages yeah of hers is on hers response Nick is on the last page I'm here yeah I'm curious I'm gonna read your response first because I'm regardless of what he said condescending I was a little bit condescending because i was really fed up with that at that point because i mean yeah okay i'm just gonna read it no judgment you're fine so far i don't think

you're an asshole at all go ahead if you're wondering yeah it can't be the fact that you argue with me during class almost every other time you get a tone with me whenever you feel it necessary you say shit like that like that to gaslight the hell out of me because you know how it felt and apologize what do you mean by gaslighting um so like every time that like i don't respond he'll continue to like make jabs at me it'll be like um well this is why it never works out because you are always like ignoring like the fact you it's always about what i do wrong never about what you do wrong and like that kind of thing or it's always about like why you can't be with me like that's like

stuff he says in order to like get me to respond gotcha it's not really gaslighting but we've we're learning about gaslighting as we go no judgment there's a lot of people get it wrong but he definitely is being a little bit manipulative and dickish and not respecting no right not respecting your position on the fact like you don't need a justifiable reason to not like him or not talk to him right Right. And I think it's just because like we were together for so long that he thinks that he can like say these things. Then you, then you get mad and you can't accept the fact that I won't put up with that shit anymore.

Like, is, is it not that don't discount how you made me feel before. And now, because you're a little, but because your little friends are only okay it gets cut uh oh i see you're only because your little friends are only getting one side and have never oh so he gave you that even my friends agree with me bullshit yeah yeah it would be like

because like i would i would go over and like his would be like, well, I know what you said to him and all this stuff like that. And I'm like, okay. And I'm like, I would say it again. I don't say it to just say it. You don't want to date this guy, yes? No, not anymore. And I have communicated that. And he texted me last Monday.

What did he just text you now? He just texted me last monday what did he just text you and he just texted me can you talk so i'm literally getting pages and pages from you from this i mean are so does he like he calls you like crazy he texts you like crazy and you've gave him one response yeah so this is like are we borderline harassment here like i mean it sounds kind of intense yeah and like this is like kind of like why anything's in the like first place because he was like this when we first broke up the last time and just kind of like making the subtle jabs at me and like would like send me like things to my school or like send me concert tickets or send me things randomly like to try and get me to talk to my school or like send me concert tickets or send me things

randomly like to try and get me to talk to him because i would block him on things and like that's the thing is i would block him and like then he would just find another way to like contact me so that's why that's why i don't even bother blocking him because it's just like it's pointless like he's just gonna try and have you email me or something yeah but you gotta start somewhere have you made it clear to him that you don't want to be with him? Yeah, it was like before all of those messages I sent, like I called him first and I was like, I don't think this is working. Like, obviously, like you can't communicate well.

And I already communicated what I wanted out of this. And you're not understanding that. So, like, I just think we need to be done. It was like good while we had it but like obviously this isn't working and he like freaked out and like started like crying and he's like hyperventilating on the phone and I just like hung up I was like I I can't deal with this right now and then he kept calling me and calling me he He's like, I'm having a panic attack, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. And I'm like, and I didn't say anything.

And then the next morning, that's when all of those messages came through. And that happened for like three weeks, like a couple weeks straight. Like those are like messages like varying from like a couple weeks, at least like five or six per day. I don't want to be careful that's a come down too hard. I mean, because first of all, I just want to make sure you're safe and you're not really worried about this guy doing anything dangerous. I mean, what you're sending me is, I mean, he's freaking out clearly,

but like we've all freaked out and he's having a moment, right? Right. His actions aren't just, I'm not justifying his actions at all, but like he's not in a good spot. I don't think you're being an asshole at all. Maybe you could be a slightly better communicator. I mean, we all can. Even at this point, you don't have to talk to this guy at all, you don't owe him anything at all.

So you could, like one very, maybe the best option is to just block them on all aspects don't yeah and if you do choose to talk to him the thing is like and you're you you maybe have been in this position before too or maybe you will in the future like when we when we're very like emotionally vulnerable and hurting, you know, he is only paying attention to certain things that you're saying. And it's, you could be saying one thing and you think it's the most clear thing and he's hearing it totally different. So you're saying things like, I don't think we communicate very well, or maybe I'm not getting through to you. I don't think this is working or some version of that right and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he's just like

oh okay she's i well how do i hear her how do i fix this the way you're saying it almost makes it seem like it's fixable well i just have to understand her that's why that's why he keeps calling and reaching out because he's just like oh if i can we talk because then i want to like i want to figure it out fuck i'm getting it wrong like you know what i'm saying he's trying to find the words or he's trying to process his emotion he's this mess right now but that's what's going on in his mind most likely and just i'm just trying to provide some context of why he looks like a madman with all these text messages. Yeah. If you do choose to talk to him, I only point that out is to just be very at the risk of sounding cold.

Just, you gotta be very clear. I don't want to see you anymore. I think you're a great guy, blah, blah, blah, but there's no future for us.

You know, you need to be that direct and you don't have to give him a reason. You've given him reasons. You've tried. He's not in a position to hear those reasons. You just have to let him know. Now, again, I'm not saying you owe that to him or you need to say that to him, but that's really the only thing you should be saying to this guy going forward. There's nothing he can do to fix it he doesn't have to work on anything you know what i'm saying don't give him a task and i'm not saying you are but that's how he's hearing it right you know and he needs to work through this shit you know someday he's gonna wake up and realize he was acting like a psycho i've been there you know and he's just i mean it seems a bit unjustified but

he yeah like with most of mine i was like telling him when i was like because like i started going to therapy and i started doing all these things and i was like and i don't want my progress to be hindered by like you're not having progress like you're not in therapy you're not doing these things for yourself even something like that like i am you're not doing anything wrong but like you know what i'm saying like having those kind of conversations with him is that this is why you feel like you're talking to a wall right because you are like you're just telling him things that he might be able to do to fix and get what he wants and you don't want to like the point is it doesn't matter you don't need to just like it's also that you're working on yourself this is not your guy

you know he's got this guy has work to do he has some growing up to do probably some therapy you know unfortunately you know it's like a lot of young people do you know unfortunately we don't realize like we don't get the maturity often like good for you you're young and you're in therapy already like a lot of people in your position don't do that right um he just sounds very emotionally immature right now um as a lot of young men are um you know i'm just paraphrasing his text messages he just yeah he's he's in his feelings right it's all about his feelings so everything you're doing is making him feel a certain way and that's what i've always stated in the past i'm like it's always about like how you feel it's never like the opposite effect and i was like if you ever take into consideration like how i'm feeling then maybe you can see that

but like you don't so like and that's kind of been like the conversation that we had at the initial like beginning because like he was never taking into consideration like the things he would say are the actions he would have would be towards me i mean you are not his therapist parent friend or whatever you need to stop explaining to him what he's doing wrong or what he needs to do right right so and i get why you've tried and he's almost even forced you to try because you're just trying to like calm him down and and get him to see your point of view but you have to like you really i mean again i don't think you need to respond to this guy, but if you were responding to his last text, when his last text is, can we talk?

I just say, hey, listen, we've been through a lot. I'm not like, I just, I don't think that's very good. I'm moving on. Don't say you want to move on. I've moved on. I'm like like this is not a relationship i want i think you're great but you're not for me and i really think over time you'll see it that way i wish you nothing but the best and leave it at that and if he responds with anything other than okay and i doubt he will say that see his thing would be like so you say that you're moving on like who's the other guy

then you block him yeah that would be his response like that's why i like i've ignored him altogether because like i mean if he like sees like a picture of me or if his friends see me out they'll take pictures of me like with like my guy friends and then like it then he like wants me to explain that they're my guy friends but like we weren't together for so long so he doesn't know they're my guy friends yeah so it's just like yeah i mean you need i think you need to you need to block him. You know, it wouldn't hurt to send that one very clear thing and no matter how he takes it, like someone needs to explain to him that you're gone.

And the blocking thing might be, I don't know, people could see it as like a, he'll call it ghosting. You know? Yeah. I guarantee he'll be like, she ghosted me. No, he'll call me like immature and say that like i literally just didn't want to work anything out with him and that i didn't really give him the time of day i really think yeah if you're comfortable with it i think replying this text message saying i don't like i don't think that's a good thing nothing's going

to change i've moved on i really appreciate the time you've had in my life. Please respect my wishes. You should say that. I've moved on. I think we both should move on. Please respect that. I wish you nothing but the best. And then if he doesn't respect that, you block him. You're going to have to block him. them but yeah i figured i would have to block him i mean i blocked him like before but then it just turns into like he gets like text now numbers or emails me or something so i try to block him on all those you can change your email you can change your number it's a mild inconvenience in the grand scheme of things but just look out for yourself you know and i think he's fine.

It doesn't sound like he's a dangerous guy, but always tell friends. Always make people aware. He's just a little nuts right now. My friends are very aware. My best friend is not a fan. He'll get over it eventually, but what he needs to do is just,

he needs to know it's over, and he just doesn't think it's over. You're not doing anything wrong. You're not. i want to make it clear you're not doing anything wrong but he is over analyzing and over critiquing everything you're saying to find hope and it's delusional and it's little nuts right now but he's just a mess make it very clear and then block him okay i can do that all right sounds good all right best of luck all right thanks bye how's it going hi nick my name is lauren and i am 29 years old hi lauren how can i help for background uh about a year ago, I moved home

temporarily because it was COVID and I was working remotely. When you say home, you mean like home to your hometown or in with your parents? Both. Okay. I matched with a guy on a dating app and we started dating. We were in a city that effectively closed down due to COVID. So most of our dates were just like us hanging out at his apartment. We made the best of it and figured out ways to have fun. But yeah, it was a lot of hanging out in his apartment. We did have an exclusivity conversation a couple months into seeing one another, but it mostly centered on like the safety aspect of seeing each other indoors during COVID.

We kept seeing each other and during COVID. We kept seeing each other and like I knew I wanted more and I wanted to define the relationship, but it was complicated because I was working remotely in a job based in another city about a five hour flight away. And there was a high chance I would like move back to that city once offices reopened. So in March, like about seven months into seeing one another, I asked him to make a decision. Either he was in with the uncertainty of my move and we would figure it out or he was out. He ultimately decided he was out because the chances of me moving away were too high and he wasn't interested in a long distance relationship. So time passed and I made

the decision independent of him because we weren't in touch at the time to quit my job in that faraway city and stay in my hometown to start my own business here. And I actually reached out to him a few months ago to meet for coffee to see if there was still something there. And there is. So we've been back in touch the past few months and he's made it really clear with his words, at least that he's really excited about me. He likes where things are going and that a relationship with me would be an ideal outcome. Also keep in mind at this point, we've known each other a year and we've been seeing each other about like eight of these past 12 months.

How often are you seeing each other? About twice a week. And so after over a year, why is he talking to you like you've been on two dates? That's a really good question. It's like that's something you would say to someone after like two nice dates. It's like, I really like you. I want to keep hanging out with you because I can see this going somewhere. He feels like the time we spent apart from one another in some ways, like kind of reset things, not quite to zero, but reset them in some way. That's fair to a certain degree. How long have you been hanging out again?

Like how long since you've rekindled this? Like two months into round two. So you've been hanging out again, it's been two months and you've tried to define the relationship again, or you haven't yet. So I haven't yet. And what I've learned, and this is sort of like what I want your input on is that he has a very particular process for vetting the people that he dates. Like he wants to be really sure about someone before he takes the next step with them. What is that process? And how did you find out? He told me that it exists. And the process is he just has to feel a certain way before he's ready for certain things. I thought you said it was very detailed and specific. And

now you're telling me it's just a feeling. He said that it is a process that he kind of follows with all of the people that he's ever dated. And did he lay it out for you? No, the process is basically just he needs to feel certain ways before he's like ready to do certain things. Okay. Which like I'm all for. I believe in being sure about someone before, you know, you progress with them. But I think this like, well, what did you say when you, when he said that? What did you say? Like, I'm, I have so many follow-up questions to that. I'm not even

involved. Like, didn't, weren't you curious to what that means? It's so incredibly vague. And yet he says it like, it's very specific. specific. I have probed and probed. And the thing that he can tell me is that he just has to feel really so excited about someone that he can't wait to do this next thing with them rather than doing things ahead of when he feels ready. I mean, if you listen to this podcast, you would know that maybe the spark is something that he shouldn't be waiting on. Who knows?

So where are you at with this? I have kind of been trying to incorporate him into other parts of my life. I want to introduce him to my friends, and he sort of had reasons for why he wasn't ready yet. He had reasons for why he's not ready for me to meet his friends. And yeah, I mean, for me, I'm like just beginning to feel a bit like insecure and like very much doubt where I stand with him.

And it's also like hard to be dating someone that doesn't want to progress in the same ways, in the same ways you do. So, I mean, like we're in a bit of a vicious cycle here where he's sort of rationing these gestures and the forward momentum feels very, very controlled. And then I feel insecure. I sort of express that to him. And yet that sets him back in the way that he feels towards me. And it's like around and around we go. Does that sound good for you in terms of like, is this a guy you should be investing much more time in?

He's done it in a way. It's such a fine line between someone who has their insecurities for whatever reason about why he should date anyone or should date you, right? Natalie and I have spoken a little bit in terms of like our courting process and how I dragged my feet a little bit and I had my reasons why. But I was also, it was very, like, she knew exactly why I was dragging my feet. You don't seem to know, like you have, there's a feeling. So, you know, again, people can, I think people should take their time when they are getting to know each other. They shouldn't play house. They shouldn't

get too ahead of themselves when talking about future plans, or they shouldn't feel like they have to introduce each other to each other's families because it's some sort of milestone. However, like, you know, it should naturally progress. And if people do have a reluctance about dating a specific person or dating at all, they should be able to articulate specifically what it is about the situation that they're dragging their feet. So what's unclear about this guy and questions maybe you could ask him is,

okay, whatever feeling you're trying to capture, whose response, like whatever you're feeling or whatever you're trying to feel, as far as you and I are concerned concerned who should be trying to progress this thing you know do you think you should do you expect me to because you know you he might just be like i just want things to happen things don't just happen that's not you know like this you're not he's not in a fairy tale or a movie either you choose to go on a date with someone you choose to invest your time in one thing or someone, you choose to invest your time in one thing or someone, or you choose it to invest it in someone else. You might be asking to go out.

He's still choosing to say yes, right? So he could be planning dates or he could at least reach out. Does he reach out to you to hang out? Yeah, he often plans. Okay. So he makes efforts, right? Yep. So then you should ask him who, as far as his, your expectation, you'd say to him, like, how do you plan on getting there with me? If at all, like you have these expectations, there's this feeling you say you're looking for, how do you go about making sure? Cause things't just happen and do you expect you to put yourself in a position or do you are the things you're hoping that i do like you're i here's what

i don't want to do i don't want to keep guessing what it is you are looking for or if there's something i should or shouldn't be doing that's not fair to me. That's not a relationship. And that's only going to lead to confusion and frustration with both of us. But certainly with me, I understand that you want to take some time. Great. Let's take things slow. But like, you're not really communicating with me. You're saying things to me. You're talking, but I don't leave with any more clarity than I did when this conversation started. In fact,

I often feel more confused because you're talking about a feeling, but you're not articulating what that feeling is, right? Right. And the conditions feel like very arbitrary. And then I sit across from him being like, am I being evaluated right now? Are we any closer to this feeling than we were a week ago? It's a very bizarre situation to be in for me. Are you asking specific questions? Like what is exactly, like, has he been in past relationships? He has. His most recent relationship, he feels like he rushed into and it wasn't a good one. And I think he's sort of like swung way back the other way in terms of like vetting but he's had like three or four serious relationships all of which

he's ended um and then i think all of them but one took a very long time to become like proper relationships i think there's something you need to remember here is that when you were first hanging out you you set a boundary whether directly or indirectly by saying hey i'm gonna be moving back and as of now i like i'm most likely to be moving so like do you want to do this or not and good for you for setting that boundary there. And he said, no. All right. You both were adults. You both, you set a boundary. He set a boundary by saying, I don't want a long distance relationship. You went your separate ways. Something changed in your life. You circled back with him and you said, well, in case there's something there. And you said, well, there was, well, I would argue maybe, yeah, I guess there was always something there, but what was there in the past was something that still wasn't good

enough to make an effort for long distance. And like, yeah, that makes sense long distance, but there's, that should tell you something that it wasn't there enough for him to make some sort of effort. So whatever is there when you came back is still something that's not like what he finds you to be right now is convenient you're in his hometown you're like hey well i'm not going anywhere so in the meantime do you want to hang out you know but then he's like he's like found other like conditions that aren't quite meeting the mark right exactly? Exactly. Yeah. So like, is this something I,

is this just like, this isn't my guy and I need to sort of cut my losses? Is this like, I gotta go in? Yeah, like there's a lot of red flags here with this guy. He's probably not your guy, but I think you could approach this as a great opportunity to practice, again, setting boundaries boundaries standing up for yourself having tough and awkward conversations like getting good at asking them questions next

time you go out be like all right listen you know what does this mean it's just ask them to clarify the stuff yeah what exactly are you looking for who how do you think we should get there? Okay. It's fine. I'm not, you're not there with me. I'm not even there with you, but like, it's very vague. What you're saying has you a place that you need to be. How old is he? 32. You're a 32 year old guy. I mean, I'm guys like a plan. What is your plan to get there with me, if at all? Because nothing just happens in life. You know, like, oh, let's just not force it. Let's just let it play out.

Like, no. You know, that'd be fine for someone who's more carefree, but he's contradicting himself. He's talking as if he's, like, very, like, structured in his, like, evaluation process, even though it's incredibly vague. All right, so if you have a process bro what is that process and whose job is to help you get there he's probably going to contradict himself but you need to call that out yeah that's a good point and at the end of the day you're just like hey

like i like you i i'm willing to make an effort here i'm okay with putting myself out there it doesn't feel like you are right because right now the way you talk to me is if i'm some sort of if you're evaluating me without any guidelines without you know and we're you know i guess a sense of evaluating each other but uh i what i I, what I, what I'm not willing to do is just be here at your convenience and just guess and throw, you know, darts against the wall and hope I hit a bullseye without ever seeing the target. Right. You know, he's got a moving goalpost and moving target. You're, you're, You're fighting blind, you know? Right, right. I mean, just saying no.

You talk a lot about power dynamics on this podcast. We have lately, yeah. And I feel like I'm like suffering at the hand of like these strict boundaries and like I'm all for boundaries. I know that they're important, but I also feel like there's this odd like power dynamic playing out here

where he's like gatekeeping certain things. So like, what's your perspective on sort of like balancing like healthy boundaries, but then also like balancing sort of like the power dynamics that can, can ensue. Well, you know, the power is,

well you know the power is it comes from what seems to be his lack of fear of you coming and going right like whether it's true or not the the inequality and power dynamic is that you seem to care more about making this work than he does the impression he gives off is like if you seem to care more about making this work than he does. The impression he gives off is like, if you chose to like leave tomorrow, like, you know, he'd be like, okay. Yeah.

Kind of like before you're like, Hey, I want to make this, I'm willing to do long distance. He wasn't, he's like, okay. You know,

he treats you like he'll hang out with you if you're available. Right. You know, he's not afraid of not having you in his life. Like I've always said, that can change drastically, but that is a situation you find yourself in now. And power shifts when you try to set a boundary and you aren't able to enforce it. So once you try to set a boundary and then you don't either have the discipline, willpower, courage, or fortitude to enforce this boundary you try to set, then you immediately lose

power. That person is just like, see, powerless. You know, if you're like a castle and you're just like, you know, no trespassing and everyone, you know, but like there's no guards, there's no security guard. They're just like, okay, cool. No trespassing. What are you going to do about it? Right.

So that's when we lose power in relationships when we, we lack the ability to enforce our boundaries. That's why you have to be careful. Like boundaries are great. But if you are going to talk about them, if you're going to try to set them, you have to be careful like boundaries are great but if you are gonna talk about them if you're gonna try to set them you have to be able to enforce them yeah that makes sense and so he is setting these boundaries he's enforcing these boundaries by not committing by you know and so you need to be able to push back and have your own boundaries and those boundaries is i i needed someone who's communicate what your boundaries are like what is this feeling this evaluation process like again like i i'm not trying to marry you tomorrow but right but what what the fuck do you want

it's i've asked i just don't i don't have a good answer to your question so yeah if you've already asked these questions then maybe it's time to walk away or maybe you try it one more time i don't i don't know yeah he's he's clearly avoiding um having any expectations of himself in this relationship yeah i've even asked if he has expectations of me and he like can't like vocalize them like he's always he doesn't want to have expectations of you because he doesn't want to have you have expectations of him like he's yeah he doesn't want to like i'm not saying this is machiavellian or he's he but he is it sounds like he's very aware that he doesn't want to lose control or power. And he is comfortable not giving, not getting,

he's not, he's comfortable with not getting anything from you. And he might want that, right? But he knows that if he gives, if he gets it from you, you can expect it from him. That makes sense. That doesn't seem a lot there for you to be hanging on, you know, other than. Honestly, I have like made that

decision. I just like, I needed Nick's input on that. And I, um, I feel like maybe other callers could relate or other listeners. So I, I wanted to call in. Um, my last question is these like early on milestones, like to me, they should feel really like easy and organic with the right person. If they aren't like, should I be reading that as a sign of incompatibility? Just depends on what they are, right? Not everyone. Like when people say like, are you close to your family? Most people just say yes by default, but close is relative. And it means a lot of different things. Yeah. Every family is different. You could be really close and not really a lot of family members could be

like, they don't really say I love you all that much to their parents. And they could still be incredibly close. You could, every family, you'd have a family, they always say the, I love you to each other, but barely talk, right? So these milestones or moving in together or meeting parents or like, it doesn't like, you know, just because you go to their family's house on Christmas doesn't mean you're in love or have a healthy relationship, you know? because you go to their family's house on christmas doesn't mean you're in love or have a healthy relationship you know so those milestones especially early on uh don't really mean much uh oftentimes it's just a sign you're playing house right um they're nice like if you have them enjoy them but they don't do anything you know like they don't

fix how you communicate they yeah they don't do anything they're just they're just nice moments to enjoy if the relationship is healthy you know you're like oh yeah we've been dating for a while and i guess you know what christmas is a you know thanks like for example like nally and i have been dating for over a year i usually go home for thanksgiving and christmas thanksgiving is a big deal for her family and not that it's not a big deal for my family but my family has started doing like all my siblings have started their own traditions and thanksgivings etc etc and i you know so we're going to her families for thanksgiving because it's really important to her family and it's one of those conversations but this is based off the

fact that like we're just really happy with how things are going and it's it's not for anything other than like it means something to her but like it's not a milestone you know we're not treating it like it means anything yeah uh other than you know it's like a nice to spend time with her and it means something to her and that's why we're doing it and then you know but like especially early on like oh guess what he's finally coming home for thanksgiving yeah okay yeah people get really caught up in those milestones and i honestly think for the most they're they're very much meaningless and can be harmful if they don't go at the right pace and the pace is dictated by the health of the relationship and how well you guys communicate and how clear things are a lot of

times people will try these milestones out to avoid actual conversations you know a guy will like invite his date to a wedding to make her like to appease her and make her feel happy so she'll find she'll find meaning in something that doesn't necessarily have meaning you know like oh he invited me to a wedding he must mean something and he's just like i just wanted her to shut up yeah i don't know i'm not saying that always happens but that can happen and it often happens and it doesn't mean anything unless there is communication you know unless the expectations are very clear you shouldn't have to ask what it means. If you are curious of what it means,

then it definitely doesn't mean as much as you want it to. That much I'm sure of. Thank you, Nick. All right, well, thanks for calling. Yeah, give it one more go at this guy and have very clear boundaries and expectations and start enforcing your boundaries regardless of what his boundaries are.

And if they don't line up, then it's time to walk away. That makes sense. Thank you. All right, best of luck. Cool, take care. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening, guys.

Don't forget to send your questions at asknick at castmedia.com. Don't forget to follow us on social, TikTok. Hey, we're at 400,000 followers. Thanks for following along, guys. We put out some great stuff on the old ticker talker be sure in our social medias uh always appreciate you guys uh when you share uh on your social about our podcast that's the greatest gift you could give us uh with that said we we're back tomorrow recapping Bachelor in Paradise with Justin Long.

That'll be easy to cut out if you need to. And on Wednesday, Dr. Amon talking about the brain and how the brain affects our lives and how we can take better care of our brains. Bye.