The Viall Files - E318 Bachelor In Paradise Recap with Justin Long & Christian Long

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

You asked for it and we heard you …Justin Long & Christian Long join Nick today to breakdown all of the Bachelor In Paradise drama. Have Justin’s thoughts on Brendan changed? Do Christian and Justin have the same hot takes ? How many bachelor contestants can Justin do an impression of?  The guys cover everything on this supersized recap.  Check out Christian and Justin’s new files “Lady Of The Manor” coming out September 17th on all streaming platforms and for a limited time in theaters. #LadyOfTheManor You can also catch Christian and Justin on their Wondery podcast “Life Is Short”!  “They treated her like Helen Mirren!”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  For merch please visit www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Huzzah: http://www.drinkhuzzah.com use code VIALL for 20% off.  Chime: http://www.chime.com/VIALL to get started today.  Wondery - Even The Rich: Mariah Carey: Listen to Even the Rich on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or you can listen ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Nuts.com: text FILES to 64-000 to get free shipping on your first order.    Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @poodollar72 @justinlong See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What's going on everybody welcome back to maybe the most special bachelor recap of them all and I say that because we have a fan favorite guest back on the show today back by popular demand i literally have gotten messages every week since he graced us with his recaps the first time justin long is back to help us break down bachelor in paradise and he brings his brother christian long who was supposed to join us the first time in the recaps. He couldn't make it, but Christian has some of the hottest takes when it comes to Bachelor in Paradise. Well, Bachelor Nation in general. So we are so happy to have Christian along with his other brother, Justin. So welcome, guys.

We appreciate it. Oh, thanks. So excited to be here. Yeah, thanks for having us. This is so cool. Yeah, we're really excited to break it all down. A couple housekeeping notes. Chrissy, who do we have on the show tomorrow?

We have Dr. Amen. That's right, Dr. Amen. If you want to learn more about your brain and the importance of your brain health and how we so commonly forget about our brains as an actual organ that we need to take care of and the effects on our lives and relationships. Check that out.

It's very fascinating stuff. Dr. Amen, some really great stuff when it comes to the brain, psychology, relationships. Amen. Yeah, amen. Yeah, that's right. Sorry. Also, and I don't know if you know this, Justin, but Christy actually is, she's leaving the show. What?

This is her last recap. Yeah, she's becoming a park ranger in Montana. Get up. I'm not really becoming a park ranger. Are you for real, Christy? I'm becoming your assistant, so next time you're not embarrassed when someone says my assistants are.

No, no, wait, Christy. I can't tell. Isn't it choking? No, it's serious. It just really is her last recap. That's so cool. Good for you. Congratulations.

That's amazing. Oh, no, I'm not becoming a park ranger though oh park ranger in north dakota but she does live in montana so we just loved it teaser she's uh investing more in a montana life yes i am for you cool we should all do that well there's a lot let's just get in the episode because the people... Well, actually, no. Hold on. Guys, we need to talk about your new movie. You guys co-directed your movie. Congratulations, by the way. Is it directorial debut? It is.

Is that how you say it? Directorial debut? Yeah. Directorial debut. You know what's funny? It's weird. It is our directorial debut, but I don't think we've said that yet. Well, it's because it sounds douchey when you say it about your own thing.

That's why I said it. Our directorial debut. It's okay if you say it. You dedouche it. Congratulations. I've seen the trailer. It looks hysterical. It looks amazing.

I can't wait to watch it. Thanks, Nick. When I first messaged you and asked you to come on the show the first time, you were filming the movie. You're like, I'm down in Florida. I'm filming. Yes. Directing my first movie.

And so it's kind of a callback to that. That's right. Yeah. Oh, my God. That was about, I mean, it was right before COVID. It was, we wrapped a week before, I think, the lockdown. In fact, I remember Ryan Phillippe's in the movie. He plays this, speaking of douchey,

not that Ryan's douchey, he plays a real douche, like an affluenza guy. We should think of what Bachelor he's most like. Well, or just let people decide when they see it. He's more like Jason. He's Jason to Jason. He's Jason to Jason.

He's Jason. Yeah, he's Jason it he's a chastened um chastens are more harmless i think than right yeah um but anyway ryan was on his you know in between takes and stuff christian and i were so consumed with directing and all that that um we just hadn't been following the news at all and i remember r Ryan saying at our wrap party, he said like, very matter of factly he goes, you know, this, this Corona virus is going to like change the world. Everything's going to change. And I said, what do you mean? He's like, Oh, it's going to everything. I mean like life as we know it.

I remember him saying that and thinking, well, I, Ryan's like a weird, I didn't realize he's like a weird conspiracy theorist he's like i i just didn't realize that you know he's like this kooky conspiracy guy i it just sounded so much like that you know and um of course unfortunately he turned out to be right he just was plugged into what was going on and he he was able to forecast it um it's a fun early days of coronavirus story to start off the show but the movie movie is fun. The movie is funny. Yeah. Lady of the Manor.

Lady of the Manor. It's about Melanie Linsky plays a tour guide at this like, uh, historically significant, uh, Southern manor and, and the ghost of the woman she's, and Melanie's kind of like a slacker stoner character.

And, and, uh, she gets this job she's wildly unqualified for. And the ghost of the woman she's playing takes offense at how Melanie, that Melanie's pretending to be her. And she doesn't like how she's living her life. And she's this proper, like, southern lady played by Judy Greer. And so the ghost starts haunting Melanie, but not in, like, a scary way.

More in, like, a, you better shape better shape up like obnoxious kind of way. A tisk, tisk, tisking her. Yeah. Like cock blocking and stuff. It looks hilarious. And it comes out September 17th? September 17th. So this week.

This free day. Congratulations. This free day. And where can we, in theaters? A couple. But most theaters, they call it, they say select theaters and it's a fancy way of saying very few theaters. It's at the Bowtie Cinemas.

Oh, you know what? Oh yeah, Chris is from Trumbull. Oh really? Right? Yeah. Trumbull. Yeah, yeah. It's funny.

It might be at the Bowtie Cinemas. We're going to try to get it in. But it's on demand and it's digital on Apple TV. Amazon, you can probably stream it. All of those. Any on demand, any stream, you can probably stream it all of those on demand any stream you can get in a stream just wait in a stream and you can get it um but it's fun yeah we like it

judy greer uh coined the phrase in regards to it she said because we were so surprised by all the heart that the i mean we shouldn't have been they're amazing actresses but they brought so much unexpected heart to the end of it and we always thought of it as kind of like a fun, lighthearted, a lot of fart jokes. Which it is. Which it is. But Judy said, well, she's like, it's like a fart warming comedy. So I like that. I'm going to steal that from her.

It's a fart warming comedy, if you're into that. It looks hysterical. I can't wait to watch it. So everyone listening, go check out Justin and Christian's new movie on september 17th wherever you can stream movies and maybe in your local theaters uh i can't wait to watch it and i expect everyone listening to this podcast to do the same congratulations guys that is really really cool for you guys uh thanks thanks and thanks for having us yeah well hey listen you're you're doing me the favor everyone no no i could probably no

no very eager to talk we're just citizens of bachelor nation yes you're uh you're a dignitary unfortunately you're like the secretary of state of bachelor nation secretary of state it's true unfortunately the consulate general well here let's let's get into it this episode opens with the brendan and piper drama uh essentially last week ended after um what chris and alana got taken down by the the mob that is what seems to be like a lot of a lot of talks about Bachelor in Paradise rules, and it seems like the cast wants to create a new rule that they can vote each other off of the beach. Like maybe some of them watch too much Survivor. Lord of the Flies.

Lord of the Flies or Hunger Games. A lot of Hunger Game feels to this episode. But yeah, Natasha, it opens up with natasha rightfully so being pissed that uh these other guys uh got the wrath of of the mob and yet she was the one who truly was scorned or or let on used uh manipulated even and and finally it comes to a head uh what were your first of all let's just start with what i think justin it's appropriate to lead off with your thoughts so far leading up to to brendan because obviously we know that on Tayshia's season, you were quite a fan of Brendan, as many in Bachelor Nation were. I mean, we all were.

We saw. Putting it mildly. Yeah. You were definitely the president of the Brendan. I was smitten. Yeah. Yes. I thought he was such a – he struck me as both of us, right?

I mean, like – I can't imagine anyone not being charmed by him he was like objectively sweet and earnest and like kind of funny and charming yeah he was great earnest he was a roofer i mean he just i was really sold and um it's funny nick i talked to the girls on the barstool show. Chicks in the Office? It's Chicks. Chicks in the Office. It's hard to say that publicly.

Chicks in the Office. Yeah. But that's the name of the show, as they told me, as I was squirrely about saying the name. And they said, oh, just wait, because I hadn't seen last week's episode yet. And I was like, I said to them, I can't imagine Brendan doing anything that is in any way indecent or disrespectful. And I was wrong because he obviously – but I don't know. I know there's been like a tidal wave of Brendan and deserving of it, I think he is. I said that like Yoda. Deserving of it he is.

is i said that like yoda um deserving of it he is uh but it's i it it strikes me as a little bit hypocritical for them all these bachelor bachelorettes to pile on him as aggressively as they are knowing that they're all doing versions of that they're just not being as overt about it they're not being as like maybe it's not as egregious but it's yeah i don't know some of these contestants are doing some manipulative shit and i think they all love being on the show for the for similar reasons christian yeah i was gonna say also i i mean i think clearly what he did was despicable but um but i will say that i think it could have been worse in that he natasha seems like a really nice person and it was not cool what he did but it's also like what what if he had slept with her what if he had really made promises to her what if he had like he could

have led her on in a really crazy way and the truth is the whole time they were dating she was like why doesn't this guy want to kiss me like what's going on kissing her wasn't like making so it's almost like he went out of his way to not lead her on while clearly still using her to stay on yeah it's not cool it's definitely it's not cool but it's also i think i don't think it warranted the joe leading the mob towards him with like pitchforks it was a little much so i i hear what you guys are saying i've thought a lot about it because i the i had a lot of problems with this episode for it's i think my biggest problem was i think the show itself is taking itself way too seriously like they've never have before

and they're treating this beach as if it's again like the hunger games they're they're treating this beach as if they've walked up to all these contestants and said to them hey we have this crazy experience for you. You're going to go on this beach. You're going to get a chance to fall in love. Or there's going to be a mix of men and women that like, they explained those, the steps of the show.

And then they said, we're not going to air it where there's no, you, you can't use your social media. There's no, there's no benefit other than finding love. And they're acting like all these people showed up with those parameters and pure intentions and yet piper and brendan somehow found themselves on this speech you know you know what i'm saying like that's the thing don't they aren't there all versions of don't don't a lot of them first of

all they all know each other right they've all met on instagram or they've had conversations to different different like different degrees of it i'm sure yeah because it's like imagine imagine if the producers came down and said hey guys sorry um bad news abc they just canceled us also interesting, Instagram, TikTok, they crashed. It doesn't exist anymore. Oof. Change. Would they stay? I don't think any of them would stay.

They're all acting like they would stay. Right. That's a good point. That's a good point. They're all acting like they would stay. Who's most likely to stay? Brendan got caught doing the same thing they're all doing. I was actually surprised that Brendan was so stupid about it.

That's the big question because, and again, I want to make very clear, and I think you guys both agree, and that's the biggest problem I had with this mob approaching Brendan and Piper. It's not that Brendan definitely did something wrong. It was egregious. The big question is, is Brendan stupid, or did he think that this whole thing was just fake?

You know, that he thought this is all, this is, but guys, we all know why here. This is kind of what it is. And despite that, the problem I have with Brendan is that, and again, two things to be true at the same time. Like I've always said, people ask, is it real? Is it whatever? You know, people, that's the one question I always get is,

is it real? And it's a stage environment, all that, you know, that's all set up, but there are real feelings. And he completely dismissed the fact that Natasha is a real person with real feelings. And despite him not sleeping with her and all those things, it was clear that she liked him. It was clear that like she had feelings and he just kept dismissing it.

And then the, like what's in completely indefensible is these comments about like the lack of prospects. And, and, and like, he just yeah he just like minimized her to like a chess piece and and and that like indefensible and and i wish i wish the group i just wish why didn't the group just come in and focus on what brendan did natasha but instead there was a lot of comments about like not respecting the show and paradise and hey like hey I love Demi she's a friend of mine but like she was pretty hypocritical this episode in the sense that like two seasons ago she she had a relationship now granted I have

no problem with that because the show decided to give representation to its first gay relationship in the franchise and to do that they had to produce you know they had to produce the show and and they brought in uh a woman named christian i believe her name was and that's right and demi was in this relationship and again i have no problem with this it's a show but like demi all of a sudden like you know demi's being apparently a team player i don't know of the show because the show is taking itself so seriously that the show wants you to think that all these people would be here despite the show being canceled and that instagram goes down and they're all here for like the sanctity of the franchise meanwhile i'm just like let's just focus on natasha and her feelings and they all went out down this rabbit hole of the righteousness of paradise.

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They're all self-referential. They refer to them... Noah, even at one point, was like... People... They say things that I don't... Like, we're the strongest couple. Yeah. People love us as a couple.

They talk about them like they're characters. Our love story they they refer to their own stories which is like people don't do that in real life people that ivan went went to kiss kendall in a really like awkward way he just kind of grabbed her chin at the end of the end of the episode notes from riley and maybe but riley i mean obviously there's like sexual chemistry with them and like maybe too much and but uh ivan with his finger on the chin and she kendall obviously she's looking at her ex think two years talk about like despicable joe if you want to really go after somebody joe who's the leader of this mob it has this relationship with this girl who that seems so awkward and uncomfortable with serena and he's making out with her in front of this woman has this relationship with this girl who that seems so awkward and uncomfortable with

serena and he's making out with her in front of this woman that i didn't know they were they were like a real couple in the real world so you criticize joe for that i actually criticize kendall more yeah because for staying kind of to your point when you open it up everyone to various degrees because you know again the to me the only thing i have a problem with brendan is his comments about natasha being you know having no prospects and minimizing her feel yeah that was right that's my problem like you know piper's not my favorite character on the show but i don't have a problem with anything piper did because piper didn't use natasha like i don't i have i can't say that she knew, right?

She seems to be learning about this. Maybe she did. I'm unaware of her. She seems like she really wanted to stay there, though. She did seem. She also had a really calculating view of her followers. And she said some pretty disrespectful things. The stuff she said about the business degree.

She's like, I have a marketing degree. Like, I could get followers. the stuff she said about the business she's like i have a marketing degree like i could get followers the big question is because like bachelor nation is like up in arms on this and i'm wondering because i just kind of like people are constantly criticizing people on the show like it's a it's there are these running jokes about going on to be influencers and yet it was almost shocking to hear brendan and piper talk about this so openly like is it again are they stupid or is it the gall like they had so much gall to just be like yeah no we i have a market piper like i'm gonna have a master's in marketing or and and or is it in a weird way grotesquely honest well that's the question right because it's they they it's still stupid

though you shouldn't be that honest you you have a microphone on you yeah so he should know all they both should know that it's not going to come across across in a positive way let me play the true that is true but let me play brendan uh brendan's advocate for a second that um of course well that what if he is as sincere as he once was he's being earnest he's just become corrupted by the fame and and the attention and i mean you look i i took a scroll through his instagram and it's like you know he seems like he's really playing up this like i want to i want to profit from this but but don't so maybe he just said it he was just you think he's been corrupted and you don't think it's since he started the show on taisha's no i think there was you don't think he

was manipulative from the start i i you think he got corrupted because he had this influence of fame i think he can everyone liked him yeah he was sweet he was handsome he had all these followers and you think that corrupted him i think i and i still have faith in him that he will look back on his performance on this and feel shame. I think he will feel ashamed. I hope he does. But I think almost, I don't know if I'm agreeing with Christian or Justin here. But that kind of point is we all can and have been manipulative before.

And that's the thing. We're talking about, there's a spectrum of you know what ultimately brenda did is he led natasha on right now there's a spectrum of leading someone on you can flat out use someone knowing that you don't have feelings and that's what brendan did and that's that sucks that's that's egregious that's dismissive of someone's feelings but does anyone listen to this who watches the show think this is the first time someone's flat out used someone to get a rose and get to next week? I mean, whether they show it or not doesn't mean it's not happening. It is happening every season, every week.

And if you really pay attention, you see it. Like, you know, just Senia, who I liked how she handled it after Chris broke up with her. But she knew Chris. She's hung out with chris every time you see someone come in and there's just like surprising a level of comfort with these people yes they're all in each other's dms i'm pretty sure blake and and tia have been dming they were talking blake blake goes it's finally nice to meet you what if he finally nice to meet you it's like it's like they've been talking and facetiming and dming also she said one of them said something like oh people are gonna think

that we knew each other before this which is like protesting way too much yes they're at like clearly they did know each other clearly right and they had a comfort you're right you can sense that there's an ease that they don't have with other people and that's why i'm far more critical with people on paradise than I am on Bachelor, because people go on Bachelor despite, you know, even though the perceived opportunity of the franchise is still there on The Bachelor, it's still such a bizarre world, right? You're among 25 to 30 other of your peers going after this one person. It's so outrageously unreal that you don't know how to prepare for it and that you really can get sucked into the bizarreness of the world but

paradise paradise is pretty much like summer camp you know well and and nick to your point there's no frame of reference for the the fame yet like they haven't had the experience of uh acquiring a degree of fame like like they they have once they've been on The Bachelor, they go on Bachelor in Paradise. Like what happened to Brendan? I think he just, I think people tend to get corrupted between. Yeah, sorry.

And there's a real like clear currency to the degrees of fame that people have. Like when Becca showed up, it's like, whoa, you were. She had status. You had status. You were the Bachelorette. So people treated her differently. They treated her like she was Helen Mirren. up it's like whoa you were she had status you had status you were you were the bachelorette so

people treated her differently treat her like she was helen muret and then blake came and some people were like who is this guy like i don't really remember you didn't last very long when you were on the show there's degrees of fame in fact one of the biggest insults now is when someone comes is they say i don't i haven't heard of them or I don't know them. It's all a reference to their status. Status, fame, followers. Like Chris, when Chris came in. Because when Chris came in, nobody knew him, nobody liked him.

It's why it was so easy to go after Chris. Chris first before Brent. Because they didn't know who he was. And it was like, here's an easy target. Let's crucify this guy. They sensed blood. They smelled blood. And he was like, what? He just got nervous. let's crucify this guy yep yep um they they sense blood they smell blood and they totally yeah and he was like what he just got nervous oh mariah carey you know her you love her especially chrissy that's right and you can learn all about mariah carey's journey on the wonderful hit podcast

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That's F I L E S to sixty four thousand. to 64,000. I think the only people who are actually playing by the rules are James. Maybe James. James has no... The whole time, he's just like, what's going on? Why is everyone coupling up? He's like, wait, I was supposed

to be DMing people? What the fuck? Yes, there's a sincerity to James. And he's like, every week I have to start over this thing. What is going on? Just choosing he's like, every week I have to start over in this thing. Like, what is going on? Just kissing him for the rose every week, but nobody is saying anything about that. He's kind of smart and charming. I had to wear a pinata in the opening credits.

Give me some. He looks like he really regrets that. Every opening credits, I'm like, he wishes he did something else. I felt bad for James when Blake walked in because he said, I mean, look at him. He's got the tattoos and a nice head of hair you can tell he's really into his hair i mean james has a nice hair he doesn't have the tattoos but he does he does yeah so like it's plastered to his head in a strange way every time a cast member jessenia demi and i think a few other

people were like they're just here for fame It was just really hard to swallow because, again, Justenia, you literally did this last week to Ivan. Demi, I love you, but, like, you know, we, like, no one came from, like, everyone goes to Paradise for whatever, to be on TV. They all make moves. My point earlier that I was too long-winded, so I had to stop was when Ivan made that move at the end to kiss Kendall, she was upset and said, I don't feel comfortable kissing now.

Now, if anyone says that to you, Nick, as a man, I would imagine your response, mine would be, oh, my God, I'm so sorry that I misread the situation. You'd be embarrassed. You'd be somewhat embarrassed. He was pissed. He was like, pouty. Yeah, he got pouty. He was like, all right,, pouty. Yeah, he got pouty. He was like, all right, well. It's like.

I haven't heard of a little pouty. Pouty. Her ex-boyfriend is like falling in love with this girl. So be a little understanding. Like understand that she might be a little upset. Read the room a little bit. So she walks away in tears. Rather than going after her, attempting to comfort her,

someone says, what happened? He goes, I don't know. He's mad. He's mad. He didn't get his way. He didn get his you know and i totally agree with you on the flip side so i i totally agree with that but also kendall came for what i seem is because her ex-boyfriend was on tv he was like hey i'm sorry i don't like we still live in different parts of the world that's why we broke up nothing has changed so that's why I'm here you're not gonna move to Chicago and

and Kendall was like okay well I guess I'll still be on TV like it why would she stay and watch it's true and watch it's hard to feel too bad it's true like she's right like again and I don't I don't have a problem with any of these people going in the show for tv it's just the righteousness hypocrisy of it all and well which which sort of makes brendan and piper's like kind of gross blatant honesty kind of refreshing at least they're admitting what they're doing whereas the other ones are like piling on them to take the heat off themselves and but they're all doing a version of chrissy and alana did a version of that. They were equally bad. Alana said something. I mean, they were just bad actors.

And they said, the thing I don't understand is, don't they realize that they're mic'd up the whole time, right? I mean, they're saying these outrageous things into the microphone. It was shocking to me, yeah. Yeah, I bet. I bet. I mean, I get if they're duplicitous and they have that in the back of their mind or they conspired behind closed doors. But when you're mic'd up, you're going, it's like, I get if they have that, if they're duplicitous and they have that in the back of their mind or they conspired behind closed doors.

But like when you're mic'd up, you're going to say things like, I remember Alana and Chris were walking at one point and she wouldn't, she was like, not now. Like they refer to the scenes like, oh, this isn't the time to do that in this scene. I understand why they have cameras around and it must be, it must be a lot of pressure to perform. But I think some are just a lot of pressure to perform but i think some are just a lot better at it yeah i'm surprised that brendan there was a moment though with brendan the last episode it's such a subtle moment but piper saying something like it might have been when she said the thing about getting followers because she has this degree and he he kind of looks away and he has this like oh no like this is bad that was bad like i don't think you should

be saying this yeah but he couldn't say that he couldn't be like don't don't say that yeah piper said i he looked like oh no that was a mistake yeah that's probably not good he gets a little sweatier and like the impression was so good yeah well i like you know it's a little bit like this and okay but you guys all kind of do a version of this and joe joe and his mob of disgruntled females came yeah that was uh i yeah i didn't like that that that line he's uh yeah but joe what what that mob needed was to your point earlier nick was somebody with a more clear point of view uh convictions and joe doesn't have the clearest of convictions well he's the best one to do it because I actually believe –

and that's the thing. I love Joe. Joe is smart. Joe is smart. He is earnest. He's a not bullshit guy. But even Joe, like if you – I think Joe is one of the few people on that beach who wasn't in people's DMs,

who didn't come in with some familiarity with at least someone. But, yeah, if you were like, hey, Joe, we're not going to air this and you're going to turn off your Instagram, Joe wouldn't come. You know what I'm saying? He's not there for love. Yeah. But I do think. Go ahead.

Well, two questions. Do you think Joe still works at the grocery store? No. Okay. I don't think. I think we had him on a while back. His family is like in the grocery distributor business. I don't think he ever actually bagged groceries.

Also, it's not his fault that that's still. No, I it's not like he's cap he's not like taking advantage that's true he does refer to he did refer to himself once in kind of a third person he like i'm a character on a show he said you had the grocers in or something i mean there i don't think and i don't fault him for it because it must be hard to not embrace to some degree your character on the show he's known as grocery store joe he knows that people know him for that but that you know to the larger point that we're talking about there's there's a currency to all of this that like can't be ignored and and for them to all of a sudden stand up to this um to to brendan and and piper and be so outraged by it is a little...

It's just... Also, Natasha got dealt a bad hand, but she doesn't strike me as someone who needs that much help, who needs that much... She became this charity case. Sympathy. Yeah, like, she's smart.

She can stand on her own two feet. She doesn't need people speaking on her behalf. There's something kind of like... Condescending. Condescending about that. Thank you. Natasha's a friend. Natasha's one of the few people i've met and got to know in this world and i do know that and i haven't talked to her since watching this episode i know

before the whole thing started airing she was you know she knew how it played out so she was worried she knew the the rejection of being rejected by brennan i think she felt a little you know like oh i don't you know i don't want i don't want to be embarrassed must by red and i think she felt a little you know like oh i don't you know i don't want i don't want to be embarrassed let's be embarrassing and i was like natasha you're gonna be fine like this is i don't think you know this but you're gonna win like this is you're gonna be fine and i'm watching this episode and then the way the show just thought you know joe you know dr dr joe comes down and i'm just like you know natasha is one of the few people in this franchise she's like and she's smart she's funny she's interesting

she's had she lives a very interesting life i mean natasha leaves she's one of the most interesting people i've ever met and and they made it the edited, like her entire self-worth was around like her ability to find love on this beach or get a rose. And I'm just like, Natasha doesn't fucking need this. And I just kind of even hated how, you know, I wish you, I honestly wish she would have been like, fuck this. I don't need it. Like I just, everyone, everyone on this, especially this episode, everyone was acting like if

you didn't get a rose, you had to like walk into the ocean and drown yourself. It was just like, right. But then what does that mean, Nick, that she didn't do that? Because you're right. I agree. Like, she had every opportunity to just be like, you know what, then this place isn't for me. I got dealt a bad hand. I'm gonna I'm smart. I'm pretty. I'm gonna go out there and make it happen. But the fact that she did stay, and then went on the date, I get that her ego is bruised. She probably wanted to save some face. But she said something interesting to Joe on that date. She said about Brendan, he jeopardized this experience for me. And I'm wondering what that means.

He jeopardized this experience for me. There is something in that that suggests she also just kind of wanted to be on the – it must be fun to be on a beautiful that place is gorgeous yeah i'll tell you and you're right and i want to get into that because you make a good point like you guys said this earlier everyone's been outing themselves this whole season right and even right because again two things can be true at the same time natasha can be there like everyone else to be on TV, maybe get a few followers, you know, for the experience. And you can go there and develop real feelings and be heartbroken and hurt. And again, the reason why I have a problem with what Brendan did to Natasha is because he completely dismissed her real feelings as a human. Right.

That doesn't meanasha isn't also there for that same thing and like when they say things like i'm here for the experience right or or when they're they they freely admit like i want to get to next week you know what does that even mean what's the implication the implication is more screen time they get by the way any of them will go on dates with any of them if ivan you could have i mean anyone could have walked down that those steps ivan would have gone on the date it's screen time it's valuable and it's a valuable currency in this new world that we live in that values fame and and it there's a way to yeah you know quantify which is why you get tammy saying outrageous things to thomas you're my best friend. What? That was crazy. That was crazy.

Tammy, oh, but you've glossed over the most outrageous thing Tammy said. Yes, Chrissy? What did you think it was? Because I think the best friend comment was terrible. I don't care about hearing what you said about that. I don't care about Becca's date. Tammy had the quote of the week. The best friend

thing was embarrassing and totally untrue. Like you knew that she didn't believe that about this situation. Right. Or there's one other possibility. There's one other possibility. And I think – I don't think this is true. Or she knew Thomas outside of the show.

They have a relationship that they didn't. Oh, right. I'm just – who knows? But it might be. And if that is the case, then like truly hypocritical. She said a couple – there was one moment that made me, it reminded me of the Philip Seymour Hoffman in Boogie Nights when he gets rejected by Dirk Diggler where he goes,

he goes, I'm a fucking idiot. I'm an idiot. I'm a fucking idiot. Tammy said, it sounded like that. I feel like an idiot. But it's, I feel like an idiot. It was her ego. Here's the an idiot. It was her ego. Here's,

here's the craziest thing. It was your birthday. It's her birthday, right? I'll give you a hint. Yeah, it was on her. She got dumped on her birthday.

She said, and I quote last year, I got COVID on my birthday and this is 10 times worse. 10 times. Yeah, that was worse. In her ITM. I'll tell you. It's like the most tone deaf it's like on covid of like so many people have suffered from that i mean anything brendan said

or did in my book tales in comparison to that line yeah i i totally agree but i'll tell you what tammy means back to our original point she she when when everyone says and tammy took the cake of of trying to express her embarrassment they're saying they're literally thinking out loud how am i going to look on tv how is this going to work every time someone says i'm embarrassed that's all they're thinking about how is this going to look they're all aware you all they're thinking about. How is this going to look? They're all aware. They're not thinking that I just lost the potential love of my life. They're thinking I'm going to look foolish and I'm not going to last as long and I won't get as much attention. Tammy literally said, I look like a fool and I don't want to go home.

Here's who does it the craziest is Demi. Vulnerable Demi is like a different person than like the girl who's like commenting on what's going on and being sassy. And when she gets like Demi, am I saying Demi? Is it Demi? It's all right. Demi Moore, you know, it's fine. To me, Demi, I get it all the time. But when she gets vulnerable, you can, I think, she almost like, she gets really quiet and it's almost like she and she her eyes dart around and she kind of speaks in a very um raw kind of uh hurt way but it sounds different she says things like what did she say to that but there's something i mean to nick's point that it doesn't have to be one thing or the other it doesn't have to be like this is all fake and set

up or this is all real and like there's real emotions i think like that's a good example of the fact that there are both you know that she has this persona that she has and she has like her commentary and it's clearly like this character that she's created i mean i don't know her personally but it seems like a bit of a character but then you see her when she's actually vulnerable and hurt. And you see it. I mean, she's not, she'd have to be Meryl Streep to pull off that performance. You know, like.

Joe called it out, didn't he? That's a person. Yeah, I mean, Joe. Didn't Joe call it out? Joe said it. Yes, yes, totally. What did he say? Totally, Chrissy.

Yeah, I wrote that down. I thought, yeah, he said, if you peel back the late, yeah, if you peel back the layers, she's probably really sad. He's right. He's totally right. If you peel back those, she's probably really sad he's right he's totally right if you peel back those like that like start that tough exterior of like i don't care um but then

you see her caring and it's like it actually makes her a lot more attractive when she's vulnerable and it makes her like i mean she went down there she's the she self-identified potter and yeah she yeah she's playing this she's playing her part and i don't even have a problem with that because she almost calls it out like i like the pot stirrer opening she went too far this episode with the like i just didn't like that she was part of this mob it's like come on demi like but we let's come on you know because it's inherently hypocritical she's playing that part for no other reason than to do really the same thing that brendan and piper are just being like overt if you want to call brendan just focus on what he did in natasha don't talk about like relationships or whether you have a girlfriend i don't care if brendan and piper went on two dinner dates or 10 we're we're all that's when brendan that's when

he got the upper hand is the arguing semantics yeah yeah he was like i don't care and when she said well because you're leaving you're taking space from people you're taking up two spaces it makes no sense because and natasha said it best she's like you natasha said you you ultimately used me and that's all it was ever should be about right and there and the mob is this like well you're taking up spaces these people don't realize all paris paradise is is a game of cornhole it doesn't matter if you play with four bags per team or two or three they can't see each other out when piper and brendan went home a guy and a girl left you know well maybe they didn't want maybe they couldn't see that angle maybe they couldn't see

that truth um because they're they know somewhere inside of them that they're all kind of guilty well that's probably why they were like hey jo, you got this because you might be the only person who hasn't been DMing anyone. So like, right. Right. Right. We're just there to like intimidate, you know, maybe, maybe. Yeah. It was, it was a tough watch. And as hard as we're being on, on, on the cast members, I, I, I don't like the show has gone this direction. Like when I was on the show in season three,

it was a little bit more of a comedy. It's like the show has gotten too earnest for their own good. You know, like the show loves to pretend it's not a TV show. And the show wants to pretend that these people are agreeing to show up without being on TV and without social media. And I just don't know how long can they be like openly just like crucifying their cast for doing something they know without like, why does that have to be why they vilify? It's just, it's just, it's gotten to be too much.

I saw, I was watching this on Hulu and it like after the episode, it went right back to season one from like seven years ago. And I remember I watched like 15 minutes of it. It's so crazy. And it seems it's so different. Like it's like the guys seem like they're awkwardly trying to be charming, but it's like really about much more about at least uh them pursuing these relationships whereas now everyone seems like they're they're on their own team and they're all like leveraging for positioning um right among everyone else and like everyone seems like they're using everyone else well to your point nick i mean it's hard to fault anyone on that show because social media has created that environment, an environment in which like just being famous is has.

Well, it's monetized. I mean, it literally has currency. Like if you have a certain number of Instagram followers, you can monetize that and sell shit. And like and everyone knows that now. And it's and in the last few years that's become even more clear i would say yeah i you go ahead yeah go ahead well i saw it play out really interestingly in this with this person on 90 day fiance another show that christian and i are obsessed with this guy colt he was he was with a woman named larissa uh for whoever's listening if

you know you know uh colt i i recently got colt to do a cameo for Christian for his birthday. And it was pretty fascinating because what intrigued us about Colt originally was just how he was such a uniquely awkward, uncomfortable in his own skin kind of, but there was an innocence to him where he lived with his mother and there was, I was an innocence to him, um, where he was, he lived with his mother and there was, I don't know, he was just like a really unique character. And in this cameo, he, and throughout his tenure on, on different incarnations of the show, he's gotten more famous and he, you can see him now kind of performing and doing like a,

a shtick kind of like poorly, like um because he probably thinks he now has this which i get why he has this following it's like i'm an entertainer yeah i guess i'm an entertainer yeah and so you see it happening with all of these people it happened with brendan i i wish it hadn't happened the way it did i wish he hadn't been so um he hadn't used natasha in that way but i think it kind of happens to all of them totally i mean and it's just it's yeah it's it's it's i really have been fascinated with the past couple weeks because it's a deliberate choice by the show and it kind of makes me wonder of like like where do they go from here if that you know like we kind of enjoyed the talking to raccoons and lizards and things like

that and now it's you know they are crucifying their you know it's so hyperbolic this world right because like again what brennan did to natasha is horrible but like the comments you see because people watch it literally right i'm telling you right now there's people who listen to this podcast who are are who we're going gonna probably be ruffling their feathers and upsetting them because we're like we're because they it's like that's the question i pose to my audience like is it because piper and brendan like just said it out loud to their face because like everyone knows but like it's like people watching it don't want don't want to hear that they don't like they don't it's like they don't want to like you know we know but like we don't need you to tell us be so well be so brazen they're gonna be seen but but see it feels almost like the show jumped

the shark in the last episode when they started talking about clout and followers in such an obvious, direct, clear way in that I feel like now that that cat is out of the bag, it's going to be hard for the show to be what it was at all. A show about people meeting each other and finding love. Any purity feels like it's gone. You're right. I think it's like the show itself has become corrupted. We're spending a whole episode just calling out what was so obvious that people don't want to look at sometimes.

They want to ignore it. Because like, well, yeah, but or is it good? I mean, there's part of me that thinks it's good that it's finally being talked about this Instagram fame and all this because it's something that everyone kind of knew, I think, and talked about with each other. But now that it's so out in the open, there's something a little, it's honest. And it's like, and we all know it's there. So maybe it'll just mean the show goes in a different direction now that it's like out in the open. That's like fame. That's the tough part, right? Because listen, I have this podcast because of the followers I was able to get from going on the show.

I had real heartbreak. I had real feelings. I had real experiences. And at the same time, I was aware of the, especially being The Bachelor, like you, the help of Brendan and Piper. They are not only vilifying Brendan and Piper, they're vilifying the desire to get followers and monetize the experience. And I'm just wondering, like, to what cost and to what end? Because is it a crime to go on an experience and be aware of, like, you know, on last season and Katie's season, like, Thomas mentions he's thought about the possibility of being The Bachelor. And for weeks, according to half these guys on the beach, he's a narcissistic villain. Because he admitted something that everyone is feeling.

It's just like, it's insane to me like it yeah it's it's it's kind of getting well is it time then to just normalize that i mean like will it will it maybe take some of the pressure off uh some of the performances and i call them performances because it's they strike me as more and more obviously. It was very performative this past two episodes. Again, Tammy saying, you're my best. I don't think Tammy's insane. And so, you know. Thomas attempting to comfort Tammy without any real compassion. I mean, it was akin to like, they're there.

You know, it's that. But some are better was like, I can to like, they're there, you know, I it's that it's like, but some are better at performing. I think, I think, um, I actually think Joe's kind of like comfortable. I think it's like any other performance, any other, anytime you're comfortable, I think the most important part of acting is just being comfortable is being present. It's being present and listening and responding. And and and i think some people are just more comfortable becca for example you see becca on that show and she's just like there's an ease to her um well i and except for becca a lot of bad mom jokes or midwestern jokes of like you know make bring her home by curfew or like when she goes to joe and she's like joe what's it like not to be a doctor like thinking it was like a joke being like hey do you to joe and she's like joe what's it like not to be a doctor like thinking

it was like a joke being like hey do you get it because your name's joe and his name's joe and he's a doctor and you're not a doctor i'm like well she has a confidence because of her a little snotty or and then becca like i think becca is showing to anyone in the future if you were a lead don't go on paradise because your ego is going to make you say things like, it's been a while, so I had to accept one of these. Yes, that was rough. Why do we need to hear that, Becca? Why do you need to let everyone know in America

that you used to be the bachelorette? Well, because she's insecure about her relationship not working out probably and now being just another castmate on this show. Yeah. Because she had a status. She had a different status before. Yeah.

And yeah, unfortunately, I don't. It's not. It's like whatever. But yeah, just a lot of weird mom jokes. She did something that was potentially shitty to Tammy. I mean, like she was friends with Tammy. She did go on the date with Thomas and, like, knowing full well,

I mean, you got to see deep down that guy. Talk about, like, I know they throw that new, that's the new thing, clout chaser. But, like, Thomas, I mean, I knew right away that without having seen them interact at all, I knew that Thomas was going to pick Becca because she has status to him in that world. Also, for Tammy to say, I trusted you and to him in that world. Also for Tammy to say,

I trusted you and to be that emotionally involved. It's like, why? Why would you trust him? Why'd you trust Thomas? Everyone said that he wasn't trustworthy. He's sweaty and twitchy. And like, what's to trust? Like, he says things with no sincerity.

Are we talking about the same person? Not only that, she told him to do it she sat down next to him and had a very i thought mature conversation where she was like go explore that's why we're here and this is why are you gonna get mad at him and be like i trusted you when like you told him and this is right after turning around on aaron yes totally yeah you chose the better looking version of two guys who essentially look pretty similar you wanted to have sex with thomas over aaron and that's so much of this show is that they just pick if a better looking guy comes in they like them more or and vice versa it's like it's not that

deep which is why the tammy and thomas exchange was really for when she was bargaining with thomas it made for like it was really entertaining because it was why do you think we can't get there they use these phrases like why can't we get there and it's like we've all been in when you're in love when you feel that thing it's like there's no amount of it's not something you can rationalize it's like you're there you're not i mean thomas and thomas came short of saying because he's aware of the cameras he doesn't want to be seen as like a bad guy he couldn't say, well, I'm just not more attracted to this other person. I'm attracted to Becca.

That's why I think you can say that to a certain degree and get away with it because this new cast and I don't know if it's a show or whatever and you guys weren't here. I mentioned this a couple weeks ago, but the girl I dated in Paradise, her name was jen

right we had talked before barris we had hung out and when i got to the beach i told everyone the producers and cast and they didn't air any of this but i was like i was like if jen shows up i'm gonna date her i've met her i want to hang out with her uh if someone would ask me on a date cool i'll go out with you but just know if jen comes I'm going to accept a date from her I'm going to ask her out and if I go home before she shows up that's totally fine I said it over and over and everyone keeps talking about how they don't want to go home and Brendan isn't the only one just not wanting to go home I mean how many people this episode said I don't want to go home you know as if like it's their only chance

at love i know and i just wish it's not about love yeah i just wish people would you said i wish people would just be more honest and be like i wish thomas would have been like i'm just more physically attracted or whatever it was or i had more fun with her or whatever or or you know they they i know well he can't because, because there's so much – he's so invested in it being a show and him being a character on the show who's going to get flack on social media. It's all related to social media. It's all really like they're so aware. Brendan, and I'm not saying this is a noble thing,

I think he was just – I think he just lost that sense of awareness, as did Piper. Yeah. If Brendan wasn't – if he was on it if he would have said Natasha I I'm definitely gonna accept a date from Piper I like her and I think you're great but like I definitely have I feelings for her and he was as honest with her from he did lie about he was like he lied he said actually no the conversations I'm having with you are

are more interesting he he was kind of explicit actually, no, the conversations I'm having with you are more interesting. He was kind of explicit, actually. Yeah, no, he flat out lied. And like I said, he flat out used Natasha and then dismissed her. But had he been honest and he had to acknowledge Natasha as like a human being with feelings, I wouldn't have had, like, yeah. And like, I don't, I can't see Piper's crime from what we're being aired because Piper didn't use Natasha. Piper just acknowledged the obvious

and it was so in our faces and dismissive to like say Bachelor Nation and the people who want to believe in love. But like, I don't, yeah, it's... Yeah, she wanted to have, to be in a couple, a famous couple, and she thought that would get more followers for both of them and it's like they had this plan clearly i would say well maybe

i mean that might be a cynical take i would say like the you know the more pure take would be the more hopeful take is that they she really does like him but then i would i doubt that because of her behavior in the car when they were going home. She seemed really pouty and upset when they were going home. It was very damning. And that's why, like, I will say between Piper, I'm backtracking a little bit, but between Piper and Brendan. And there is a difference between, like, say, let's assume Tia and this Blake guy DM'd or a handful of those people have met at some event or hung out or whatever, had a weekend

and there's a familiarity versus like, Brendan and Piper are like flat out in like a full-on relationship when she was like, I told you I didn't want to go. Like that was very damning

in a like, you know, that's something you would say to your boyfriend. It seemed like, babe, I told you I didn't want to like, I told you I didn't want to go to this party, man.

I, you know, like it was a very. Oh, I didn't know. I didn't hear that. I don't remember that. Yeah. They were whispering and she was like, I told you I didn't want to go. I told you, you know. And so like, yeah, if you're like full on in a relationship. I mean, again, I still I think I don't think any anyone else on the beach is any more righteous than them.

But what it is, it's that much sloppier. It's that much more dumb. It's like the whole show is, to your point, the whole show has turned into a game of don't get caught. Right. Totally. But it's almost like if there wasn't the social media component, then their little plan would have been to get a free vacation because they they were dating they were together and they thought oh this is a good opportunity for us to like spend however many yeah it would have been a little more innocent

in sayulita isn't that where it is in mexico it's beautiful there so then it's like i can kind of forgive that they kind of manipulated the system a little bit to get a free vacation it's the explicit mention of like how many followers and that's but that's my point i think that's really what it's about it's not the the vacation it's not oh this is a chance like what brendan said was kind of bullshit like i just thought this would be a good opportunity to like explore to have a lot of time with her that's bullshit it's like that's bullshit i know you can do that in yeah you can do that in in the real world you don't need to be on an island you know with cameras around yeah but like i get well that's why i and i'm not forgiving and i'm not excusing it but like

it sounds like you are just i'm trying to rationalize it because i do think it's actually the interesting part is how quickly i think fame can corrupt that kind of attention, that adulation. I do. I, I, I, I have to believe that he was, there was a decency to him before he was, you know, got all this attention. He got so much attention from being on that show. I mean, I like, we talked about him. I mean, I was on your show being like, God, you're just such a great, I was. Justin, you FaceTime.

I feel let down, Brendan. For Carr, just to say hi to the guy. I was going through a rural area in Massachusetts, and I was cursing the reception because I wanted to connect with him. And then you almost got into a car accident. Wasn't Chris just driving? Oh, yeah.

So glad that didn't happen. But to put a bow on this before we move on to the rest of other non-things about this topic is you make a point justin and that's kind of like the show is hyperbolic and therefore like the fans have become hyperbolic again what brendan did was wrong and he definitely owes and i don't know if he has in person apologized to natasha but like does not justify like some of these comments that are floating around the internet that are like on brendan's page where it's just like the man lied he

manipulated someone. He dismissed someone's feelings. That was wrong. Like I don't, is he the devil? Does he deserve to go to prison? Does he, I can't possibly say from watching this show.

I don't, you know, I've never met the guy in person. Well, it's also the culture we live in. Yeah, sorry. I would say that it could be that because he was revered, and he was so high up, that it was really a huge

fall from grace for him. Whereas, if someone like Thomas or really anyone else, if they do a similar thing, like a similarly sleazy thing, people would be upset, I'm sure. But it wouldn't be this level of, like, I feel betrayed by this person.

I mean, I feel that too. I do too. I do too. But I think that's how people are thinking about it. Nothing will get you in more trouble on the show than the lying, feeling lied and misled. If you mislead the audience, if you present yourself as one thing

and then show them another, that is the biggest crime you can can make in in this world and it's it's kind of you're right it is is fascinating but again we well yeah we're talking about leading yeah he led her on and that is not okay and it's interesting because the show has become like a triggering event for people like you know after last week when they watched brandon do this a lot of people on the internet are just like, oh, I'm just triggered by this.

And it's just like, yeah, because a lot of us have been let on. Many of us to some degree. Because we're all doing it to each other, you know, everyone. Especially by someone that you really liked. And that's the thing. I think even people who don't know Brandon,

like us, we really liked him. You know, we're like two heterosexual guys who don't know this person, but I feel let down. So I get why people are like, not Brendan. Who could we trust?

So it reminds people of a very personal thing. When this happened in their own life, someone that they really liked. He's like a Kennedy of that show. And then when the Kennedys started doing that crazy shit, the whole country was let down.

Yeah, and it's like Brendan kind of represented like any fuckboy that you swore to your friends and family, this is a nice guy. This is one of the good guys. And he ended up doing the same fuckboy shit that some, like the obvious fuckboys, like a Thomas or a Kenny do all the time. But, you know, it's...

We expect that from them. Oh, my God, Kenny. I've never felt like this before. Kenny had a really funny thing. I think it was last week when he said to Mari, when he takes her back after... I got a question about the boom-boom room, by the way. But he says, he goes, I don't know why.

You know when you love somebody, it's like so easy to say why you love them it's so like stuff just spills out like it's I love the slightest things about somebody you love everything you can wax poetic for the longest time

and he said something to Mari like I mean I have no idea why I'm choosing you but why why I like you, but I do. What's the craziest thing to say? He said there's something about her from the beginning why I keep coming back or said something like that. Yes, it was. But it has no idea why. I can't put my finger on it.

Or maybe it's the thing he doesn't feel comfortable saying is I haven't had a chance to sleep with you yet. And I really want to. You don't buy sincerely that he likes her i buy that he sincerely likes her like it's again it's getting so hard what does that even mean he variables he and again i was very much i was critical of mari when she was like hey i want to deal with people and like good for kenny to be like okay but he clearly wasn't heartbroken you know like he clearly wasn't like beat up about it. You know, like how much could he have liked Mari if he was like, okay, Demi, you down?

You know, like. Right. He was attracted to her. Yeah. He thought she was cool and nice. Yeah. But he was honest the whole time. No, I'm not criticizing Kenny.

I'm just saying to Justin's point, like how much could he have really, it's just like. Really gotten to know her. His sincerity in his feelings towards Mari. That's true. Like. was like i don't know i guess you and maybe that was the most kenny's kenny has been pretty honest this whole time he's like i don't know why i like you but uh whatever he then said in the last episode i've never felt this way about anybody so maybe that's true too i don't know i don't know kenny yeah and it's also yeah possible it made me kenny if kenny told me he's never had a girlfriend he's only just been kind of

i believe it yeah yeah which yeah it's fine he's like the opposite of the 40 year old virgin he's like the 40 year old fuck boy like he looks like he smells like sex yeah yes totally totally the boom room was a no that was he didn't hesitate that was just like uh yeah of course they like but like when riley and marissa go into the boom boom room the editing is like yeah we're gonna do it mr chaplin sunday but then we're like mario and kenny are going into the boom boom room the editing is like soft music that's like we're really ready to kind of like that's true that is true together like the music was beautiful it's crazy oh and

all the stuff with the food is that was too that was a good call well what he said he said um he said that is nauseating wait which one they got to the toes oh the toes and then they were doing like lady and the tramp with the the spaghetti. Did you see that? No, I didn't see. I saw Riley blow on spaghetti. That was funny. To see Marissa licking whipped cream off of Riley's toes is so gross. Because I know what is on that beach.

That beach is gross. It is sand, mud, and dead crab bodies. That's what I was going to say. If you suck on a toe, you can probably get engaged here. Yeah, that's so true. There's a lot of truth in that statement by Wells. Yeah. Just the stuff in sand is like but i do love yeah i think riley and marissa they're my but easily my favorite couple and

for for all the people who are like oh we're the strongest couple i mean no and abigail just literally just hang out in the pool all day i well no one's been saying he's been he's been saying some pretty like self-conscious things about them as a couple. People think we're so cute together. There are a couple of quotes that are like, oh, man, I expected. I like Noah a lot. But I also expect I think he's kind of gotten wrapped. Again, what we're talking about, I think he's gotten wrapped up in it.

And I think he sees them as potentially like a good couple for the show. And in his defense, it's like sometimes they're answering questions potentially like they a good couple for the show and in his defense it's like sometimes they're answering questions like do you think you're the strongest couple you know yeah i see i see that's true there's a lot of uh question and answers oh okay that makes sense um all right i take it back no no but either way you don't like they they're just answering questions and it doesn't yeah he could say like i don't know about strongest couple i don't i don't feel comfortable i don't know how people perceive us i don't want to i don't care about you all i know is i like the girl exactly exactly how refreshing would that be to hear i don't know strongest

couple and like who's i'm not really weighing myself and my coupledom against other people's like imagine doing that with. It's like, imagine doing that with you. It's like, if you're again, like I go back to like being in a relationship and like, I, if you're really happy with somebody,

you're not looking around and weighing your happiness against others. I don't know. There's something about it. I do think Riley, I agree with Nick, that they seem like the actual strongest couple. They seem to have have real genuine chemistry. Yeah, chemistry.

They like each other. Riley is refreshing. And unfortunately, we don't get to see a ton of Riley because I do think he's smart enough to not really deal with the bullshit. Yeah, he was involved in the Chris stuff a little bit. But like, you know, yeah. He's also always working out probably.

I like that. He's playful. I don't know know he's probably harder to run and stand in slippers so it's probably better for your calves it's hard to run in sand i'll tell you that much yeah it is i do know that well but were people upset with marissa marissa for um doing what she did who was the singer songwriter but he was a teacher but really one of the songs out there yeah connor yeah connor b yes now is that the one who wasn't a great kiss he looked like you know yeah that was him yeah he looked like he was trying to bite everyone's face off when he was kissing yes he was kind of chewing he was very his head moved a lot yes yeah yes he was like head performance every time every time he would kiss a woman who like consented to wanting to kiss him back ended up having to lean back because he was coming too forward like that should never

that should never really it should never be like this like especially for somebody who recoiled yeah for someone who's like yeah no i'm down to kiss you and then they act like they didn't want to kiss you i think the ivan thinks much i think oh manipulating someone's head over with with your finger their finger as she's watching she's like what she's watching clearly joe's watching them she's clearly not it's like read the room i know there's no it's not a moment there's you know when a kiss is about to happen and if you don't and you're wrong you should have a little show you gotta own it you're like i have to be embarrassed by yes i misread this moment yeah and i'm sorry and also by the way are you okay that to me i i still

can't get over that ivan again we've i've had the pleasure of interviewing ivan i the fan favorite seems a nice guy but he you know he's obviously smart he's like a some sort of like engine rocket and yeah i don't know but yeah haven't had a lot of confidence in himself he has a lot of hubris like you can tell even when like when jessenia like left him like he was bummed but his reaction was like what you know like he couldn't yeah he was like pissed surprised and again maybe it's because i'm the fan favorite here who is this i don't know why he felt that totally was no no no, you're right. Of course that's involved.

All of that. That's in people's consciousness. I think especially when it happens, when there's such a rush of it, that kind of fame. They must read all that stuff. I mean, I'm sure everyone to a varying degree. But I'm sure some people really read the comments and are really plugged into that. Can you imagine how much that must influence your personality? Well, it's like the – remember the – what was Chris's new alter ego when he came back on the show?

Goose. Goose. The silly goose. Did you guys watch Katie's season? Yeah. Katie on AFR was like literally commenting Reddit. She was reading Reddit and the whole gaslighting stuff was solely based like she reads Reddit. We know she's like, and again, Katie's not the only one.

You said, Christian, like some of them must. No, they, most of them do. Very few have the willpower to just be like, I't you know and like everyone's being like i certainly have done it and i i go way out of my way to not read these oh i've done it too it is but when you're in a relationship with somebody it is the last thing you should be doing when you're uh i've been in relationships with with you know people that are people, people know. And like a couple of years later, I never know. People will ask me like, well, what was it like? What were people saying?

And I say, I don't know. I have no perception of what people thought or what was said because it's so easy to not read that stuff. And it's the only way to really coexist with somebody. But also this is even more intense because you've been in relationships with people that people know, but who do other things. You weren't in, these people are in a relationship and that's how people know them. They know them as people in relationships. The relationship is the currency.

Is the currency. Yeah. So all the comments are going to be about the relationship. Like everyone knows. Whereas with you, it'll be about like that Jeepers Creepers sucks or like there's going to be like,

well, wait a minute. No, but I'm saying there will be other types of comments that you would have to contend with. That's a great point, Christian. The relationship is the currency, especially in paradise. They're all trying to get

to the finish line in a relationship because they know. And again, it also doesn't mean that some of them can't be incredibly sincere good friends of mine jade and tan are still married have three kids it's as real as it gets joe and kendall had a real relationship they met in paradise like i can't speak to all of them but like they are getting engaged in three you know three weeks so that's nuts and there's wait in the show on the show oh on the show i know i'm gonna turn this light right so like yeah it'll be interesting if anyone ever calls that out but yeah the if when people break when people break up in bachelor world all they lose followers it's a it's a thing you know they they're aware of it

and so you know they yes but see that's crazy that alone is incentivizes things in such an unnatural way that people are going to be more likely to stay together so they don't lose followers that's like it's hard to it's hard to imagine anything pure at this point i mean and they'll use that sometimes if they get into fights or there's moments of, I mean, Demi did that a few times. And I noticed Tammy did that to Thomas. They say things that suggest, hey, you know, I'm going to position you as a bad person now. I'm going to, I'm going to like spin this or I'm going to like, I'm going to perform my part in this scene is going to be hurt it's going to be someone who was hurt by you and they do you know what i mean they say it like

oh you better be careful they use it they weaponize like villain which is like so it's like an old-timey in like old-timey movies they were like villains yeah we're like when was the last time in life to your point christian that you called someone a villain or referred to a villain but you're right you see that a lot right exactly and they're all talking about meeting each other and if you follow people from bachelor nation and i'm as guilty as anyone because like you know you have an instagram and i i openly be like you know i run my i don't like i don't post like my friends from like high school because my followers don't give a shit, right? So your Bachelor Nation people are constantly doing,

now they're doing TikTok dances with each other. And everyone's like, why do you guys all hang out? And they're like, because you guys give us engagement. So we all meet up and we all hang out. But that's the world. It's like the chicken or the egg. It's not their fault, really. I know.

If there's an audience, then they should take advantage of it. It's become a fault really If there's an audience Then they should take advantage of it It's become a very meta thing And that's why it's almost They bring it full circle The show calling this out so obvious And making it the very thing That we're vilifying These people for

Other than again Using Natasha That was the human shitty thing that was clearly wrong we're now having like a two-hour conversation about like and where do we go from here because we're just we're discussing it so openly and that's not going to change instagram and tiktok aren't going away people aren't going to stop going on the show exactly and people and the people who are complaining about Brendan's behavior are the same people who were following him, who are following other people, who engage with these people and create the fame, which has become the number one currency. It's not love.

It's not to find love. But I wonder if you could do – what if the next incarnation of the show doesn't even involve – doesn't even purport to make love connections. What if it's like, what if you remove that element somehow? And it's just like, who's going to be a more dynamic personality? Who's going to survive on the beach because of something else?

Or the opposite. Or you only have people on the show who have no Instagram, no Twitter. They're not connected in any way to social media. How do you find that? You don't do that on Paradise yeah well that's the thing and that's why it's it is interesting because the show like you said christian almost jumped the shark so much in a way that it's like the show could have again like when when paradise the first three season of paradise were very different it was it was a it was more of a comedy there was a more of a like

hey guys we're here to be on the beach you know whatever yeah well yes we're also open we're open to finding love we're definitely down for finding love and whatever we're just gonna have fun but it's turned into this ultra earnest taking itself so seriously and and and again it's getting the triggering response responses but like to i don't know to what end it's because the stakes are so high now compared to seven years ago now the stakes are so high that if you survive on that show your whole life is going to change yeah like that's how they're acting like this is like they're seeing like the next 30 years of their lives as like known people who are making money on social media that like they feel like

so invested in this what's more subjective fun about it than money and fame money and fame is like fame for what well that's a thing well i'm just saying nick is successful there's some successful people out of this franchise but other than than that, people are selling curlers. I know, but I don't think that – I'm trying to figure out what it is. It's like, is it the swipe ups? Is it the – like, what are they chasing after? Attention.

Attention is seductive. Yes. Getting likes. Getting all of that. Those are all serotonin hits that they're getting every time they post. There's a new cast that comes in. So there are some people that stick around, but you're going to constantly be, like, updating with new people and new cast it's a combination of things it's a lack of perspective

it's uh uh not understanding the reality if i for example when people reach out to me and ask me questions about this world and how to navigate them i i let them know that like most people who enter this are very disappointed because their expectations don't match up because there are 60 new cast people casted every year right there's a lot of luck involved that you have it's the people who are the most sincere and the most honest have the most success and people have a hard time believing that and then after you get off the show it's kind of like what you do with it again do you find your thing that you have a passion for again are you authentic like my friend ashley i for example like you guys are being fans like she was on chris soul season

like she got she got a lot of yeah yeah she got a lot of criticism for you know not fitting the the the mold of the just here to just grateful and prim and proper but ashley i is authentic and she is who she is and every time she showed up on the tv screen she was who she was and that turned into that criticism turned into people saying you know what you know what you know who this person is regardless of if she looks like jersey shore or whatever she she is comfortable in her own skin and i she's lasted yes and and and her truest fans they love her for that because she's comfortable there's an authenticity and she never disappointed and they that's who she was right and and even even it's interesting even your boy brendan like he hasn't been authentic you know he

hasn't like he bought into the bullshit of the show and he said some can't be bachelor tropes and that's why he's getting you know caught up in this because he wasn't like if brendan would have just been okay to go home before piper showed up he and he would have been like either way i'm gonna be able to hang out with my girlfriend i know i know that's true that's the truth of what he wanted him and piper might have been the hit couple literally like the if he would have gone to the producers and just said just here's the situation i'm i'm dating piper honestly like i'm just gonna tell natasha i'm just gonna be honest with her they would have been like all right there's there's a good enough chance they would have figured it out and and had wells he

really messed up he messed up i'm surprised he didn't do that because he seems confident enough to do that. Even when the mob was approaching him, he has, there's a confidence that he has. He has a real awareness for his status too, like, which is really cruel what he said about Natasha, that no, like she didn't have any other options. It was. But the implication is also, I do have a lot of options. Oh, he did say something more obvious than that. Yeah.

Like people like me. He said it to Piper, I think when she came, he was like, you know, I was like you know i gotta let you know a lot of people yeah it was wild yeah i'm popular here popular here yeah no he's got his is his hubris his ego is has been the the death knell of them you know obviously yeah we've we uh what brendan did was wrong but there's some that are more subtly um chasing i think this this the fame and the idea of being a couple, the currency of coupledom. And I know he's your friend, and he seems like a good person, like a nice guy.

I hate saying this, but Joe and Serena feel so – their moments together feel so – You don't buy it? I don't buy it. There's an awkwardness to it. I don't buy it. There's an awkwardness to it. There are uncomfortable moments where they're not, don't seem

to be connecting. I think, again, and I know Joe, and I don't know Joe that well, but I do just one point I want to say. I think what Joe's success on the show has to come from, regardless of you buy him and Serena, Joe will be

Joe. This is who, who like we're seeing joe he there it's not performative i don't as far i think joe is this kind of naturally awkward and so it's hard he's like an all shucks yeah he's all shots so i but he's all shucks but is he leaning into the all shucks now because he has status on the show himself is he i mean i'm sure there's probably it's probably impossible not to do that to some extent right like there's there are cameras on you like no one can just completely be themselves that'd be weird that'd actually be scary back to the two things you be true the same time you can go on and be yourself i always try to be authentic as i could my friend ashley joe but you can know it's a tv show it's true you can acknowledge it you can play along you can you know be like i don't know

sure like who do you want me to give a rose to i don't give a shit you know like whatever like it must be i would be i would feel very like wildly uncomfortable to do what what marisa and riley did for example i forget the toe thing i wouldn't i, I wouldn't suck on someone who's toe, who's been on the beach all day, but like just to be that kind of, I mean, the boom, to have set,

to do any of that on camera, to, to, but to express your love, like, I mean, he just told Serena that he loved her while this girl that he had, like,

let's just talk about that. Well, he, he, he had her say it first. He had her say, he put it on her. Which I thought was like a little chicken shit.

He said, what are you thinking? It was in the air. And they were both thinking. He knew it was coming. He knew. And he put it on her. He said, what are you thinking? Well, what's that?

I'm just saying they also did the falling in love with you. They padded it a little bit. Oh, right. That's the step before. I'm approaching a trip. I'm on. There's a runway of love that I'm approaching and I'm falling over the cliff

of love. I'm beginning to tumble. Yeah. My descent into love has begun. It's crazy. When you love somebody, it's like you know... There are these stages. I know. It's like it spills out again. But have you ever I haven't in life told someone I've only done it on the show.

Yeah. I've never in life. In love? I've never told someone I was falling in love with them. I was either, I love you. Right. Exactly. I love you.

Because it begs the question, oh, so where in that, like what do I have to do to get to the next level of love? And before I have people like chime in and be like, what do I have to do to get to the next level of love? And before I have people like chime in and be like, well, I've said this to my boyfriend. If you did say that, it wasn't a disclaimer. People use it in the show as like a disclaimer. Like, just, I want to be clear. I don't love you yet.

You know what I'm saying? It's like, people might say, people might say, it's just like, I think I'm falling in love with you. And you're basically like, I love you. You know, like, it's just, you're... But falling in love with you and you're basically like I love you you know like it's just you're but but shouldn't that be said with with the most conviction I mean when you say that's why

Shakespeare is so incorrect like Shakespeare that's why that Romeo and Juliet scene is so beautiful because he he not only says it but it's he says it's it's torture and not mercy to be without her he it's it's I'm picturing Kenny as Romeo now no Kenny's the guy from outlander yeah yeah

oh my god but it's like it is you can't shut up about it when you love somebody you you want to sing it from the rooftop it is like um it creates poetry it's not this thing where it's like uh i think i might be if someone said that to me but it's but it's just become a thing that they've established on the show in the same way and it caught on in the same way that like they started doing the jump up thing and they wrap their legs around one person did that once and then it became like the thing you have to do yeah when you greet even in the top six it's like that's the way you greet that's true even if you're literally like stationary when you're facing each other and you're just like here we go up on the shoulders or up on the but it's like

a copycat thing where we're it's just like oh i guess this is the way you do it now before the hometowns you have to right now in order to like make the person feel comfortable you have to announce that you're falling in some way and then it's their way of defining the relationship in love yes it's giving it's a process it's true it's making somebody secure it is something i didn't think about i will say i'm comfortable in saying joe knew that moment of that date of like that like i'm gonna make a date he knew that moment was about those two expressing words of affirmation and you're right he he had said what do you think he had serena go first he definitely opted out he did and if i'm telling you nick if you watch their scenes without the

sweeping music because obviously the show is a music so they're supplying to your point chrissy like the music helps a lot but the movie we you know we've come to learn that now and and uh they it's sweeping it's this romantic but if you listen to it without, if you try to ignore the music. Or do the opposite. Turn it on mute, put a different soundtrack on, a villainous edit of music, or dun, dun, dun, dun. You might feel very differently about that couple.

Yeah, it's true. He says to her, I mean, do you okay? He's uncomfortable around her. And it might just be that Joe is uncomfortable with the camera, which I totally get. I think that's what it is. Because as who's been in joe's shoes before for me you know i had had these i would be well for me i can't like i had a very unique experience so i can't my experience i can't it's hard for me to compare it's not fair for me to criticize in some aspects

i had two of these very intense real experiences where i felt real feelings for andy and caitlin then i go on paradise and i'm just like guys this is summer camp you know so like i i i was like i told the producers i'm i'm not telling anyone i love you on the speech like i'm not saying it because i couldn't because when i said it to andy and caitlin i felt it i felt real feelings i I knew I was sucked in a world. I knew it was crazy. I knew I would have to reprocess after I got out of this world. Regardless, when I said it,

I believed the words I would say, right? And I wonder how much Joe really believes it. Like, I believe that Joe really likes Serena, but you're right. it's a good point because I I just thought to myself there's just no way I can get here with someone in two and a half weeks because I it like it felt real like it felt like a bunch of friends hanging out at a beach and to you know I think it's probably going to get harder and harder for people like Joe to tell that to tell to to find the truth in those moments because

of what i mean this point that we keep circling there the currency of the show now has changed and it is uh the stakes have gotten so it's also a nebulous thing where like you can have feelings for someone and have these other factors including like for one thing the cameras for another thing this the the stakes of you know getting more followers whatever like and in joe's case his his ex there he's probably part of him is still can you imagine trying to process that and i mean there's a lot going on it's not just like it can't be black or white can't be like is he sincere is he not sincere i don't think you can boil it down like i think joe's the most sincere person there i do and i and i do fault kendall more for joe kendall came because she found out

joe was coming and and decided to stay despite getting an answer she didn't want and again either because she wanted to make it hard on joe or she wanted to be on tv there's only two options huh that's true and i don't want to read it i don't want to reduce their whole thing to like a simple like i mean like you said but it was the real issue they make it sound like the issue is she wouldn't move to chicago i i no i i think that's like even from out like my understanding of having mutual like that was a as a very sincere relationship between kendall and joe and that was a very sincere relationship between Kendall and Joe and that was a very real reason why they broke up and a valid reason in the real world it's a

non-negotiable like hey they both have family where you live is often very important to people and and despite their real feelings for each other they neither of them were willing to budge and they didn't try to make you know they didn't try to what if they moved like right in the middle like to colorado or something but either way but again they yeah but it's also you can't i mean if that might have been the the breaking point but i'm sure there are other problem other factors there were it doesn't just come down to like you live here i live here like if something is worth moving for well you do things like maybe well it can both be real and serious but not worth moving exactly they could there could be real love and say but my family's more you know i don't know you know so it can be a little bit of both but either way

or we'd have judged that i know i don't want to pile on joe but he also did a really he did kind of a snide thing to Piper. I mean, again, I don't think it's Piper's fault. And he imitated her in a, she said there's no rule book in paradise. And he goes, no rule book in paradise. He like did this kind of like immature. And that's also your girlfriend's good

friend. Like Piper and Serena are close and Serena was notably absent for the conversation where Joe called him out. That is interesting. Yeah, it is. Speaking of, I like how Dr. Joe handled himself with Natasha. I thought he was like, oh, yeah.

I thought he came off looking really good. Joe, I hadn't met him in person, but we did get to interview him virtually. Wonderful human. Chrissy loves him. Oh, he's my Brendanndan oh okay yeah i like him no he's a true class act you can tell it was facet i'll never have another brendan i'm never gonna trust again the the the is it a juxtaposition or what is that the word the conflict later conflict of him because i do think joe is someone who you know he's a he's a he's he's literally fighting he was and we had him on he was talking about how he was on the

front lines of kobe this guy's been fighting covid for the past year and a half and he like probably came for a mini vacation to come on tv and then he was hearing natasha talk about this drama that she was involved in with brendan and you can see the conflict in joe because like here his real friend brendan that he's made friends with outside of the show and it was you know and he can't he can't get brendan's side of the story and i'm not saying you know again brendan was definitely wrong with natasha i want to make it clear but joe doesn't know that he's just hearing but there was something kind of noble about his defense of him yeah he didn't defend him he just said

look that's my friend so it's almost like he was like I don't want to have to get involved because like he is my friend you're right Christian I like how he said that because he acknowledged his friend but then he also acknowledged Natasha's feelings because he said

either way that's not what you wanted to experience and that must have been hard and I like that he didn't he was able to try to diminish her he empathized with Natasha and again that's where you're kind of lacking from a lot of people is this ability to

like acknowledge the moment and then just show empathy without kind of to your point justin just immediately start maybe and maybe that's what it is knowing that i'm going to fill this role i'm the hero you're the villain it's the finger pointing which is you know why it's you know like i honestly would have loved demi at that point to i would have loved my friend demi to say you know, Brendan, it was really fucked up that you used Brendan, but I get where you're coming from because I had someone come in and I had a relationship before,

but you just went about it in such a selfish and inconsiderate way that I thought that was really shitty. Like I would have loved Demi to say something like that because that would have been real and honest and introspective and honest. Yeah, that's true. And she's capable of honesty on that show. Demi is capable of saying something like that.

And I just wish she just got caught up in the bullshit. So yeah, she, yeah, I think we've, I think we've covered it at all. Joe taking Natasha's cup, the margarita with a bug in it.

What a gentleman it what a gentleman I don't know why they didn't try to fish it out but Natasha gave it up very quickly too Natasha could have put up a little bit of a fight they might have edited it such a gentleman it was also the biggest cup ever

huge I know is that it also strikes me that they're not drinking as much um there used to be a little bit there's a maximum i i like to think that was joe's kind of he you know joe's really smart he thinks outside i think that was joe's way of letting america and bachelor nation natasha no not like hey i've been fighting covet let's not sweat the small stuff fly is not going to kill you i'm gonna yeah oh no i'm gonna drink the drink it's not a big deal whatever you know what brandon broke your heart you're gonna be fine i'm about to drink a

fly everything's gonna be fine and then tammy's approach to the to the covid crisis is saying that uh thomas not liking her back is 10 times worse than her experience. That was wild. I wonder what Dr. Joe thinks about that, having literally fought COVID. I do too. Oh my God. I do too. Yeah. I'd like to get his take on that.

What do you think of this quote from Tammy? In Tammy's defense, she wasn't saying it's 10 times worse than the COVID crisis. She must have met her own case. She might have had a mild case of COVID. That's true. She was talking about her own experience. Yeah. But it was just funny.

It was just funny that she made that juxtaposition. With Thomas. Yeah. Who I thought I could trust. Yeah, Thomas just seems like a real straight shit. He's so, like, he's not hyperbolic at all. He doesn't say things like always and never all the time. I know.

I love that montage of him bragging about how tall he is that was a funny those were funny cuts guys i can't thank you enough for breaking this down with me a lot of fun uh again congrats on your movie lady of the manor uh out september 17th make sure everyone listening go check it out. You can stream it on Amazon. You can stream it on Apple TV. Go check your local theaters if it's in a theater near you. I'm sure it's, I can't wait to watch it.

So congrats, guys. We hope you like it. It's fun. It's a fun diversion, we think. Yeah, I feel like a welcomed movie that we don't, that quite frankly, aren't made a lot these days. From all the drama of watching Bachelor in Paradise,

this is the nice escape from the stress and the agony of watching Bachelor in Paradise. Yeah. It's a nice escape. And yeah, it's kind of like a throwback. We loved like Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. And what about Bob? Those are the movies that really inspired us.

Thank you. Oh, it's the and Automobiles. What about Bob? Those are the movies that really inspired us. Thank you. Is this Corn Hand Shuck? It's our favorite. Is this some sort of radical new therapy? You think he's gone? He's never gone. You see? Guys, can't thank you enough.

Please come back anytime uh you know thanks nick let me know when you guys are in la just that the people also want you back for an ass nick if you have the time i would love to um and uh can't thank you enough guys thanks for listening as always subscribe uh rate five stars review all that fun stuff uh again we're back tomorrow discussing brains the health of your brain why it's important what you can do about how it affects your relationships and your life with dr amin and if there's nothing else we will see you and actually that episode's already out if you're listening to this by the way so just keep listening it's not tomorrow it's fucking out uh have a good your brain speak of of needing to work on your brain.

Have a great day.