The Viall Files - E321 Bachelor In Paradise Recap With Elizabeth Wagmeister

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

On today’s Bachelor Recap we have the journalist, reporter, and writer, Elizabeth Wagmeister! On this episode we talk about an awkward date between Mari and Kenny (with some nasty tacos), a storm that sweeps paradise, and how far people are willing to go to get a rose. We also talk about how Paradise has changed season to season, the TRUE intentions of some of the contestants, and the INSIDER SCOOP on the next BACHELOR. Watch as we dive deep and brace the storm on this episode of Bachelor in Paradise Recap! “It’s like a very PG orgy.”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  For merch please visit www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Hunt A Killer: http://www.huntakiller.com/VIALLFILES use code VIALLFILES for 20% off your first box.  Vizzy: http://www.vizzyhardseltzer.com/VIALL to find out where to purchase.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @EWagmeister See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another Bachelor in Paradise Breakdown Vile Files edition. I am your host, Nick, joined by the ladies ali and amanda and we have a fantastic guest for you today elizabeth wagmeister of variety magazine you make that sound so fancy i feel like it's fancy it is fancy you seem fairly fancy to me you're doing a lot of fancy things oh i mean sophisticated there we go is that worse or better than fancy i think it's much better sophisticated prestigious fancy i feel like you're doing important things i should come here every day yeah i feel like you're yeah

you're selective in your stories that you're right. You're an investigative journalist. You dig deep. And then I cover The Bachelor. Yeah. I mean, you know, makes me feel better about myself. We also like to do some serious conversations about serious things with serious people. And we also cover Bachelor in Paradise. We all need a little bit of guilty pleasure. Before we get into breaking down Bachelor in Paradise,

just a couple of housewarming. Keeping? Housewarming? Keeping. Not housewarming. It's not housewarming. It's housekeeping. Yikes.

We have a great episode for you that's out now already. Unless you're listening to this right after the episode. Amelie Zilber is our guest on our Wednesday episode. Again, probably out now. So right when you get done with this episode, just keep listening. Amelie, just a really impressive woman who's done a lot of great things at such an early age and just a fascinating conversation with her. I really enjoyed it. Be sure to check that out and uh anything else we need to be aware of next uh next week

bachelor in paradise recap kit and brie are going to be with us live not live but from new york i'm going to new york and so like live from new york so maybe we'll get some insights maybe some behind the scenes i think they both are friends with piper and maybe like what's going on like what did they know who knew who knew did did serena know seems to be a big question i feel like like Serena knew. Serena knew. They all talk. I want to join you guys in New York. I want to know who knew. Welcome to... Come on by.

So that will be next week for the Bachelor Paradise recap. Well, let's get to the episode. This season, this episode picks up with Joe making out with serena 30 feet away uh from kendall kennel's awkward we get like it was kind of funny it's like a

different point of view i was like oh what else happened and we were just getting a different angle um this episode for me was a, I liked this episode. It's, we had a handful of felt like real genuine conversations that were even like relatable to like real world things. Like when, when Marissa was just like, I want to tell him how I feel,

but I'm afraid of the answer I'll get. So maybe I just won't say how I feel like we talk about that all the time on our ass next and it's such a real world thing where people are just like you know what I'm not gonna say what I want because like I'd rather have half of you than none of you and and very relatable obviously the Riley with his father story real genuine and meaningful and then we just had a bunch of performative bullshit conversations about falling in love and people just like, I guess, is it time to say we're falling in love? All right.

And it was a lot of that. But the Kendall and Joe conversation, I have a lot of thoughts about. I'm curious your take, Elizabeth. Because while it was heartfelt and Joe and Kendall had a very real relationship outside of Paradise and they dated for a couple of years. And so we kind of felt Kendall's pain and that Joe very sweet and empathetic

and clearly a lot of respect between the two. But my frustration with Kendall, despite her hurt and her pain is you're you're you're not really doing anything you have the keys of the car the answer to the playbook the answer to the test whatever it is like and she wants to talk to joe she wants to sit with joe she doesn't really go for it she doesn't do you want to move to chicago right so here's my thing i don't get why she's there either because like you said very real relationship more than a year right like a year and a half they were together i i mean great tv like i'm glad that they're there because we get to watch it.

Thank you. But if I am Kendall, and I should say, like, my heart was breaking for her, watching her. When she's in the car, I'm like, this is so sad. But this is a real relationship. Why didn't you pick up the phone before? Yeah. To wait to get to the beach and then talk about all this there.

And he had already developed this very real relationship, which, by the way, I completely believe. Like Joe and Serena. You buy it. Yeah, I buy it. No, I don't. You look like you don't buy it. No, well, compared to Kenny and Mari, I definitely buy it.

Yeah. We'll get into that. Okay, we have differing opinions. You buy them. But we'll wait. We'll wait. Okay, we'll wait. Yeah, we'll wait. No, I do. I buy them. Yeah. We'll get into that. Oh, my. Okay. We have differing opinions. You buy them. But we'll wait. We'll wait. Okay. Yeah, we'll wait.

But no, so. No, I do. I buy them. Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I don't really understand why Kendall is there and saved this for a TV moment. And that makes me feel even more bad for her because now you're doing this with cameras. You know this better than anyone else like i

haven't been on the bachelor i haven't been on a reality show i would imagine when you have cameras around you and you're dealing with this fallout from a very real relationship it makes it even worse because maybe you have a moment where you're like holy shit there's all these cameras around me and i'm devastated and i'm embarrassed now totally and we spent uh we had Justin as brother Christian last week and we talked a lot about kind of the hypocrisy of many of the cast people and you know there was what Brendan and Piper did but you said again saw a lot of it this episode where you know they're again a lot of performative they're they're saying things they would never say in the real world because they're in paradise and you know kendall and joe again this you have

this real relationship justin was a little critical of joe last week because he was like how could joe make out with a girl he's known for a couple weeksena, in front of his ex-girlfriend, a woman he says he's loved, had a real relationship 30 feet away. And I challenged Justin last week and thought more about it this week. And I agree with you. For all the times that I defend cast people when Bachelor Nation will say, you know what you signed up for? And I'm like, you don't until you're there. But Kendall does. She's been there. Right. But Kendall does. She's been there.

She knows how this works. And so she like if you haven't noticed this beach they're on is a isolated area that's like 100 yards. It's a TV set. It's a TV set. And so like, you know that like you're all just kind of watching each other having these awkward like quote unquote dates on the beach. You're seeing people have conversations and everyone's like, it's like this kind of very PG like orgy essentially where everyone's like on all these beats, like you're all like

hanging out, making out on these like love beds. Right. And you just, that's just how it is. Right. So Kendall, and Kendall also, Kendall lied. I believe Kendall lied in the sense. That was very journalistic of you. I believe.

Allegedly. Allegedly. Well, because I've been a little bit more assertive in my opinion. You don't know. You're getting fancier today and more sophisticated. Just for my own mental health. Right. I believe that Kendall lied when she said to Joe, when they were like, well, why did you come here?

And Kendall goes, well, I think we came for the same reason. No. Joe, as he pointed out to Kendall, I came because I thought we were done. Done, right. And I was given an opportunity and I, whatever. Kendall, I know through conversations I've heard and what I believe just watching it

is that she found out Joe was going to Paradise, called him up and said, can I come? They were like, absolutely. She showed up, did a beeline for, we watched Kendall walk onto the beach, did a beeline for we watched kendall walk onto the beach did a beeline for joe hey butthead hey butthead and joe's yeah and joe's like hey no i'm doing this thing and blah blah and kind of like was like okay i guess i'll stay

which you have a right to do it's totally fine fine. But at that moment, you opted in and you knew what you signed up for. You signed up to watch Joe, who told you he was pursuing this other relationship, make out with and do whatever Joe and Serena P want to do right in your face. I agree. And I, so I agree with you and I disagree with Justin because I don't think it's a problem that Joe was making out with Serena. I don't either.

Of course, nobody wants to see their ex make out with someone else. But just think about the real world. If you had broken up with someone that you dated for a year and a half and you go to a bar. Exactly. And that person moved on and you see them making out with someone, you're going to feel terrible. Yeah.

But they have every right to do that. You up and be there and and be there and maybe it was a bar that you guys frequented together and so you knew you knew and then you're also back at the bar which is why mutual friends yeah you're back at the bar you guys kind of your group of friends hung out at and you guys didn't negotiate who gets the bar and the divorce right exactly like i have we all have friends who do things like that, right? Where they're like, I want to see this. I want to create drama. That is so not me.

I'm like a clean break person, but people do that. So like maybe the real life version is going to a bar where you know your ex is going to be because you want to see it. I, I had two ex-girlfriends my first two girlfriends show up at bars they knew i hung out with with girl and then i was i had a girlfriend at the time they both showed up on their bachelorette parties to bars that i frequented hoping to get a reaction from me my jaw is dropped and when i was like i am so happy for you. Congratulations. They both immediately started bawling.

And I'll tell you what, very satisfying stuff. I'm sorry. These women were together? Or this is two separate occasions? On two separate occasions. The first girlfriend, I actually felt bad because I ended that relationship. the the first time it happened she was the one who cheated on me and and like went into relationship and she definitely showed up to get a reaction and i was like i am so happy for you guys congratulations blah blah blah and she starts bawling and i was like god god the power of

indifference. But yes, people do that. And sign number one that maybe you're not ready for that marriage. You're doing your bachelorette party in front of your ex. They're no longer together. Okay, great. See, so we digress. But no, back to the beach and back to Kendall. I was actually wondering how she even joined the cast this season.

So your little inside scoop there is really interesting to me about how she allegedly according to what you i don't know that for sure but i'm she might have received a call of like hey i don't know if you know this but a little someone's going to paradise are you interested or or she reached out but i i have it under good authority that she found out he was going and it was a triggering event for her. Yes. And that's the thing. I would have no problem if at that point,

let's say Kendall gets a call. They're like, hey, Mr. Grosher, he's going to be there. You interested? Producers are thinking of a drama situation. She's like, he's going to be there. You interested? Producers, you know, thinking of a drama situation. She's like, you know what? Fuck it. I've been, what am I doing? What am I doing?

I, fuck it. Yes, I'm going to go. And she shows up prepared to do whatever it takes. And that's fine that she's not prepared to do whatever it takes. I have no problem. Like living in different cities is a legit non-negotiable. It might sound unromantic. You know, you might, you definitely want to, you know, be with someone who'd be willing to move to Spain for you, but like, that's just not practical. Right. And if you are close to your family and your friends, like you can love someone

and not be able to give up your entire world to make that, that's legitimate. And that's fine if you don't want to do it, but don't show up not willing to do that.'s legitimate right and that's fine if you don't want to do it but don't show up not willing to do that if you know that's the very thing that's stopping you from getting what you want with that person exactly so when i you know i interview a lot of people that are in bachelor nation as part of my job so i interviewed lance bass who i know you spoke to as well and he told me he was like, I'm so excited for Kendall to arrive. Of course she has to come. It's the best drama. Producers are probably like chomping at the bit so excited. And I agree. And I could see the scenario where Kendall's like, hmm, maybe I should. But then when you get there and you realize the emotions are very real,

then it's kind of like real life comes in. And I actually will say, you know, I felt very bad for her. But when she made the decision to leave, I was like, good. Like, good on you. You finally realized, like, don't stay here. Like, you have the right to stay here, but don't. Like, you came for one reason. It was to see Joe. The time is done.

You know, she made her move. Totally. And do you think her staying had more to do with like the real world example we talked about? Where like you don't like you're sitting there and you're just like, this is going to hurt. I should leave. But I'm going to I'm going to watch it. Get that hurt. You know, or or was she there for like, fuck it.

I want to be on TV. What do you think? I don't. I mean, with all the people this season who are there to be on tv like i don't right yes everybody who does the show wants to be on tv correct but this is not like a brendan piper situation so i'm not going to say that with kendall i think it'd actually be more the former i give kind of the benefit of doubt i agree sure it's sure she's there for tv but it might actually be a genuine

like like i'm just i know this is gonna hurt but i want i want this i don't i don't want this to be easy for joe and i'm willing to suffer for it and maybe she needed to almost see it like with her own two eyes you know it's like it hurts but you're watching and you're like oh my god this is awful and then a minute later like oh my god this is really awful and then you know she gave it one last go she spoke to him but i will say joe handles everything exceptionally well he you know i loved how he obviously gave the time to talk to kendall but then i loved how he went over to serena and the first thing he said was Kendall and I just spoke like he's hiding nothing you know he told her and he said someone that I care about that I loved it hurts to see her pain like he's a good guy if you're looking for something new and exciting to do with your significant other or group of

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or older. He's not, he's one of the few people who go on Paradise who are not afraid of the truth. And it'll happen next season. No matter who I talk to or what advice I give,

everyone's kind of lying or lying to themselves or like they think they have to play the game paradise the rules and Joe's it's like no I'm just gonna I'm gonna be here it is a show yeah they're roses but when I asked I asked a question I'm just gonna give an honest answer right and if that means I might go home as a result of my honesty, so be it. Right. And Joe has done this. I'm sure other people have done. That was something I focused on when I was in Paradise.

But Joe is one of the few people who is doing that. And it's incredibly refreshing. And you're just like, why is it? It shouldn't be that hard. Right. Because all really Joe is doing, and I'm not taking anything away from him, is just simply being honest. Right.

And being direct. And not avoiding awkward conversations and saying, hey, Serena, this might be awkward. This might be tough. But I talked to Kendall. Here's what's up. Yeah. And it's very refreshing. I also think it.

I mean, I think he's just a good guy. But also, he is one of the older cast members in Bachelor Nation. And I think he really is looking for something i mean we saw that with kendall that was a very real relationship and i think he's like i this is real for me like he's not doing it for the cameras i mean it's like he yes it's like we talked about it joe is there because it is it's a tv show but two things can be true the same team time you can be there for a show and then choose to be as authentic as possible on a set of a TV show right which is what most people there are not

doing at all but Joe has whether it's the maturity you know and he's doing it and like that's all and he's Joe's not afraid to go home that's what it comes down down to. Right. Right. It's just like, I'll come. I'll stay. But like, if I get sent home, I'll be fine. Right. And so many people there are just scheming for how can I stay? You know, like, it's not this person that I care about. But how can I stay another week?

Perfect example. Ivan, right after Kendall leaves. Kendall, you see this awkward hug. And like, I literally forgot that they were even a couple i was like oh they're like pals when he said that when he was like oh like i you know basically like this really sucks that i gave my husband i was like wait did that happen like did i forget that yeah and then i was like oh god and then ivan who you know he has a lot of great moments and i i was Ivan seems a nice guy.

But as far as I'm concerned, he is just as outrageously honest without realizing he's being honest like Piper and Brendan were. When instead of saying, I really like Kendall and I'm bummed and what a great girl. He's, should I give my rose to someone else? That was a bad idea. How am I going to get to next week? Kendall could have been a plant. Right.

And if a plant had a rose to give, Ivan would have pursued that. He's literally talking to her like an inanimate object that has a rose and he was just trying to get this rose. That's no disappointment about Kendall whatsoever.

Yeah. I mean, I literally forgot that that was even a thing ever can we jump ahead to should we not go out of order so Ivan and Aaron the big cliffhanger and one of the best

lines is when Aaron's like he's like a chopstick yeah first of all I don't even understand i missed it though oh i forgot i forgot to when when james and aaron are talking what does aaron say when james essentially challenges him to he said something really weird not like yeah i'm gonna do that he's it's like oh god well what does happen is james goes is that white wine and aaron goes yeah there were like two weird references to white wine back to back

everyone's ordering wine and also james and aaron are just clearly such homies i'm surprised they don't like leave the beach together the white wine thing is also confusing to me like who drinks white wine in mexico was it white wine week? Like was, don't you drink tequila? Just have a different drink at the beach? We should talk to Wells about that. I'm like,

literally, whoever has wanted to drink white wine in Mexico? Aaron? You drink tequila? Yeah. Oh yeah.

Well, I was going to say if it's for teeth, but like I made the mistake on Andy's season of drinking red wine all the time and then it looked like

just conk. I was like, that was a bad move. That's Bachelor. move that's bachelor like that's an appropriate wine environment we're on the beach the only time i've had wine in mexico it said white wine there was not it's not chardonnay not sauvignon blanc it's a white white or red right yeah right no but aaron said and i quote he's built like a fucking chopstick i'll break him in half bro but aaron's i forgot what aaron says aaron says

something to james when he like when he's about to walk over to to to ivan it was just really awkward and weird i would just like something about like finish it like oh i'm gonna take care of it or something i want to i'm trying to figure out i can't remember the line but i it was such a unique it was such a weird thing to say i can't remember it anyway he said something weird i forget but yes he goes over look i'm i have not been a huge fan of aaron's character i don't know him alone person he is petty he is the classic shit starter no backbone he is all bark all bark and absolutely no bite and we saw that when ivan when stepped up got in his face it was like is your lip quivering bro and and and i will see what

happens cliffhanger but like ivan would destroy and aaron i've met him in person i don't know him but like he's huge like a Aaron is truly a massive man. He's taller than Chelsea. Right. Right. Well, no, he,

but he's like literally six, four, six, five. And he's, he's him and Thomas are like one, a one B in terms of like, these are big muscular men who like fit.

And it was like weird before when like, when it was DeMar, DeMar and Ed come in and, you have aaron talking about like these their physical appearance and i was like what an interesting choice to have aaron right talk about how he's like intimidated of the physical presence it'd be one thing that was like connor b but like aaron aaron i'm like you look the same you all look the same. Aaron is so small and tiny inside. And, you know, like he clearly has some insecurities. Listen, I just think he's very emotionally immature.

I agree. So I also clearly do not know Aaron. But this is where like the journalist in me comes out. So I was at the Bachelor in Paradise premiere party, which was super fun. And I just saw aaron walk by and what struck me was actually not how huge he was it was how young he looked and i don't mean just like he has a baby face but also he's how old is he i think like 26 right um but he seemed he seemed like he had the maturity of a 26-year-old, which to me is immature. Sure, yeah, I mean, we're maturing later.

But to me, it's high school. I mean, he's very high school. Yeah, he's like chirping from a high school lacrosse bus in general. That's the way he approaches conflict. As if he's like, it's like a scholastic transport that's about to pull away. You know what I mean? No, it's wild.

And what do we think about and again like ivan is flat out i'm you know we record this again ahead of time so i don't know if people are going to pick up on this on twitter but to me and i don't think they do because it's weird like bachelor nation seems to be okay with like the acknowledgement to roses and the trying to get to next week because they're all talking about it. To me, every time someone says that and they say things like I should have given my rose to someone else is them saying I am only here for TV. I don't care about relationships. That's what I hear. And he I don't think I don't know how could be more obvious without actually just saying it. Right.

I don't think I don't know how could be more obvious without actually just saying it right and despite all that do we care that Ivan and again Ivan has game he's got swag the guy walked up to Chelsea pulled her aside Chelsea is like hey we're pals and Ivan's like no no no no no no like and so i have no problem with this at all because i i would not categorize chelsea having been in a relationship like this is your on bachelor in paradise you're exploring that's what you're supposed to do you're supposed to talk to different people you're supposed to see who you click with i mean ivan like not cool with bro code. Just like swoop in. He's not their bro. Exactly. So I'm like, I don't know.

It's kind of like every man for themselves. And I agree with you, Nick, that when you say I should have given my rose to someone else, you're saying I'm here for TV. But also, you do want to stay because you want to see who else you can meet. So I like not cool with bro code, but as you just said it perfectly, he's not their bro. I don't think they're friends.

And he sees a girl that he's attracted to or that could keep him there for another week, whatever it is. I didn't really see a problem with this. And I think with Chelsea, she's obviously interested in exploring that. Yeah, she's been pretty honest and vocal about like I'm a free agent and I go on dates. And she is. And she's been she's been pretty honest and vocal about like i'm a free

agent and i'll go on dates and she is and she seemed like she it was weird because like she seemed like she was friend zoning ivan not because she just wanted to be friends because that's what she thought ivan wanted and so she wanted to get ahead of it but as soon as everyone's like i don't know maybe she seemed very down and very into it because she like redacted her statement like they got down they went to the daybed she was like called them a homie and then shortly into their conversation when he was like nah she was like i didn't mean to like friend zone you by calling you that it's just but like she was then like oh let's redefine this yeah so i believe chelsea and ivan more than chelsea and aaron i think that chelsea was hanging

out with aaron because she's like oh he talked to me and we're in paradise and i want to get a rose and this guy's fine but i'm talking to him and then she went to ivan and i actually saw sparks and my favorite part is when they were walking towards the bar and then they were holding hands yeah in the six seconds of seeing those two talk, I believed those two more than I believed Chelsea and Damar and Chelsea and Aaron. And Aaron. Yeah. And you're right.

And that's what Chelsea is just like. Just like Chelsea would be on dating apps where she goes on a date. Yeah, you see her nice at a good time. I swear, I was just going to say that. That's weird. I was just going to say, I have no problem with this because when you're on dating apps, let's say you go on one date with someone and it's a good date, but you're not dating them. So then you swipe on someone else and they want to go on a date and you go. That to me is like

what Ivan did with Chelsea. Yeah. Like I don't see a problem with that. And I've always liked Ivan. I think he's a good guy. By the way, I'm sure Aaron's a really good guy, too. But I think Aaron seems more into it for the TV aspect. And I think Ivan just, his character to me from his time on, not just Paradise, but the franchise. I just,

I like him. I think he's a good guy. Yeah. And I think I don't, Ivan and Aaron are interesting enough. I think similar in age, but after talking, I think Ivan's had some more.

Ivan's maybe 28. Sure. So he's two years older. Yeah. Aaron's now 27, 27. Yeah. So he's two years older. Yeah. Aaron's now 27. 27. Yeah. So they're essentially the same age. Right.

But Ivan has had more real world experience. He's had some more family challenges. You know, at least you can be the same age and be very different mature wise and live different lives. And Aaron clearly comes across as someone, you know, just very typical kind of show. And again, like I was blessed when I grew up of like not having to face a lot of real adversity and walk a shot Wisconsin,

very privileged, like very chill, like no real world challenges. And congratulations to Aaron who also seems like he's never really had to face any real adversity whatsoever and he doesn't he lacks the emotional maturity to like deal with what feels to him is the most intense experience of his life well even like the fight that's the cliffhanger that was just very like come at me bro what is happening like for me like i don't care about that cliffhanger at all like at all i'm like okay two guys are fighting great yeah i don't

i don't have testosterone awesome i think i don't think aaron has the guts to actually pick a fight and i think ivan's smart enough not to pick a fight yeah well he also caved because like aaron started by being like come over here bro and ivan's like no right literally walk up to me and then aaron had to be like and then like walk up to him be like what do you also caved because like Aaron started by being like, come over here, bro. And Ivan's like, no. Right. Literally walk up to me and then Aaron had to be like, and then like walk up to him and be like, what are you doing? So it's like from the,

Aaron is clearly the one who's trying to initiate the aggression and he's already like coming to Ivan. I can tell you how it's going to end. Ivan's like,

why is your lip quivering, bro? And Aaron's going to say some version of whatever and walk away. It's going to pass quicker than that storm. Yes. which by the way okay so i feel like the storm was like the ambulance of bachelor or bachelorette it's like the teaser throughout the whole season right that it's like oh my god who died like is everyone okay and then

it's literally one commercial break and it's like sunny skies. We're good. I mean, do you know why they even chose to air that? I don't. Do you? Yeah. Well, I can tell you why. Okay. Tell me. Because they had to explain to the audience why they were having a cocktail party in broad

daylight the next day because they lost. Because it was a dangerous enough storm. Because on the beach, it might not be a hurricane. Right. But it's not the place that you should like like, you want to expose cast with a liability. Right. Like, it's all wide open. Right.

So, like, if it's going to be a fairly dangerous storm, you definitely want to be like, we should go. A hundred percent. This idea that, like, everyone's like, we might die. I was like, you guys, this is a little dramatic. Meanwhile, they're explaining that they might die while taking the time to give said interview talking about potential death before they actually evacuate exactly the beach but my guess is and i'm pretty confident saying is the whole reason why they even chose to air that because they they they record everything right because

they don't know what they're going to use and they're like we, we did, we did lose this filming day. So we, instead of having a day off, cause like most, most, uh, rose ceremonies are just like, it's like the day is just like an off day. You just like guys and hang out one side, there's some pickup interviews and B roll and, and like, you know, stuff like that. And then they, so they basically jammed it all on one day and they basically had to say that's why we're doing this because we didn't get to do it last night and it's also a fantastic promo like if i were a producer i would be like yes include

the storm but i like anyone who's been to mexico knows that there's storms all the time and they are really scary like the waves pick up but then it'll be sunny skies an hour later so i was also cracking up when they were like are we gonna die what's gonna happen and then the other thing i didn't get is when they were like i think it was serena and joe they're like are we ever gonna see each other again i was like you guys the storm is going to be over in five seconds like what do you mean i just also want to point out not to beat a dead horse is that they're all acting like if they don't get to come back right they won't be able to fall in love this is it we won't be able to talk in the real world how could we possibly we were we're all falling in love and you're telling me i have to say goodbye to ever it's

like are you fucking kidding it's like don't you have a phone yeah like pick up the leave and dming each other leading up to this like please go by all means proceed but like we like what this is i was so close to finding true love but like this goddamn storm and i'll never be able to i know i was like you guys first of all you'll be back within 24 hours and second of all pick up your phone and call them and go on a date go on a real world date all right backtracking a little bit we we have the kenny and mari date to talk about oh yeah well well damara and ed i i do like just props to little john fantastic host love him so i'm obsessed i also think um just a side note like about the whole season. No offense, because I know, you know, your season, of course, was the best.

But no, I honestly, I think this is the best season of Paradise. I love the different hosts. And I think having everyone from like Lance Bass to David Spade to Lil Jon, it just shows this, like everyone's kind of in on the joke. Like Paradise is not to be taken seriously it's fun well i half agree with you okay i love the variety of hosts and i and i think that aspect of the variety of hosts especially when david spade came on right i loved the like it's a show we're having fun right but the show itself and even post, I think, and we talked about this last week with Justin,

I think is being a little too earnest and a little too, like they are in some ways, much as we're giving cast a hard time of talking in terms of if the real world doesn't exist, that is part of the show. Editing it like that and taking it. So, and insisting that like the show is trying to convince us. They want us to believe that the vast majority of the people there are earnestly there to fall in love and not for social media. And we're here to find out and sniff out the few people who are.

And it's just like, and I think I do think like season two and season three of Bachelor in Paradise, they were more like the raccoons. They were trying to give you two things at the same time. Real love stories, real relationship. But hey, we're on a beach. We're having fun. And I wish they would do more of that because i do think it's gotten a little hyperbolic and the re some of the reactions of bachelor nation are overwhelmingly intense for what is ultimately a silly tv show right and everyone

is there to make tv and it's not excusing some of the bad behavior but like i do think some people need to chill out so like i agree with you on the host i think they bring that energy yes but i don't i think the show has decided that they didn't like what for whatever reason it used to be a comedy and now it's just it's just drama right well like with brendan and pi feel like, I mean, first of all, I think that they deserve the reaction. I'm fine with losing the followers. I'm fine with the criticism. I'm not okay with some of the like death threats and some very nasty things that are being said.

Yeah, I agree. So yeah, let me rephrase. I'm glad you brought that up. There should never be death threats for anything, especially like, this is very important to us because we love it, but like we're talking about Bachelor in Paradise here. So all these nasty, the death threats, nasty commentary,

not warranted. But losing followers, sure. But I agree with you, Nick, that at the end of the day, like one of the issues with reality TV in general, with the rise of social media, like one of the issues with reality TV in general, with the rise of social media, is how do you really find a person who's actually there for the real deal? And that's an issue. But I do, just back to this season, I just think it's like tongue in cheek. I think

it's fun. I like the host. I like the vibe. And you brought up something with the raccoons. I like the vibe. And you brought up something with the raccoons. Like every season on Bachelor in Paradise, when they do a cutaway to an animal, I'm like, give that editor an Emmy. Like I crack up every, like when we see the crab and David Spade, like. But they stopped doing it with Cass

and then they did it with Dave. I just, I wish they would give us a little bit more comedy because I agree. I love that the drama has been outrageous. It's nonstop. It's great. Because sometimes it's like there's been a lull. And I really enjoyed this episode.

It was captivating. And overall, it's been a great season. And just like, again, I think Brendan and Piper absolutely deserve the criticism 100%. I'm not prepared as a lot of people seem to be to cast like these broad judgments of like who they are as people in everyday life as if like they, you know, it's hyperbolic and it's just like you did this. You definitely weren't your best self.

You hurt someone's feelings. That is not okay you 100 apologize it for it i think we've all but if we look in the mirror we've we've had our moments of selfishness and yes you know like not just you know not being very honest with ourselves or people around us using people so i am team natasha i'm here to defend her and i want her to meet someone who she really falls for and with like i think that she's giving it an honest go with joe and with ed like i don't see a spark there i'm team natasha too yeah and i want her to leave you right maybe like let's have her find love outside and i don't want her to leave because she's not great tv or

fun to watch or captivating i think she's better than the environment that love outside. And I don't want her to leave because she's not great TV or fun to watch or captivating. I think she's better than the environment that she's in. And I don't think there's any legitimate options for her. She gave it her best shot. She tried. She got played. She's better than this. And it's not a disrespect to Ed.

It's just like. She's out of his league. I'm sorry. As long as Natasha stays there, she is falling trap to saying things that like, like everyone else for she. Now, Grant, you heard Natasha say,

paradise is amazing. It, you didn't see the words come out of Natasha. And I, I don't doubt Natasha said that she might've literally said that like day one. So we don't know, but the way it came across was wait, no it's not not for you you've had

a terrible experience right and ed again no disrespect ed ed did not turn this whole ship around for you no you know like you're having a nice time with a nice guy right and fine but that does not make paradise amazing for you no and and i just, it's like, if she did say it in the moment, it showed kind of a, like, again, it was just beneath her. And we don't know if she said it in that moment. Who knows? And that's why I want Natasha to choose to leave and to say, I gave my best shot. I don't need Paradise to find love.

It is an option to find love. Certainly not the option to find love and not my only option to find love it is an option to find love certainly not the option to find love and not my only option to find love yes and i'm gonna be fine yes but i do like i have to give it to her because she is giving it an honest go like she's presented with options and she can't have more options there and she's giving it a go like she's sitting down having a conversation with ed we both see like there's no sparks there so that would be a power move maybe next week she'll say i'm getting up and i'm leaving i'll be really bummed if that if natasha doesn't send herself home at some point she i would really i'll be pissed at the

producers if they let natasha go home by not receiving a rose right i agree with that yeah like she it would be such a power move for her to say you know like i gave it my best try i had a great time i was the star of the season and here's why i put it on i put it on producers because they're watching this all from a bird's eye view she sucked into this it's an emotionally damaging atmosphere you know anyone who's been in that world at times can be guilty of not making smart logical decisions i've been there it doesn't natasha's been there it doesn't mean you're not but and so they should see you're our star we want you to exit in the most powerful and empowering way how about you just opt out?

Yes, I agree with that. I'll be really bummed if they don't just say, pull her aside and like, I don't know if you're seeing it the way we see it, but trust us, this is the best move for you. I agree 100%. So we'll see. We'll see.

We'll see. Joe plays, you know, can play, Dr. Joe can do it all. He can play the ukulele it's not a banjo uh grocery store joe would call it the banjo i feel like that's such a you know joe is a lot of great things but he's definitely seems like a type of guy he'd be like guitar banjo you could whatever i don't fucking know it's an interesting engineering it's very endearing it's uh yeah all right let's get to the becky uh i'm sorry kenny and mari which i know your thoughts on that becky yeah you buy them so okay so i buy them for what it is um like i think they are insanely attracted to each other they want to jump on each other at

all times that's great yeah they're horny for each other. Right. For sure. But like, that's great. And I feel like when Kenny was like, I don't say this to people. Like, I love you. I don't know if this is true love, but I do believe that whatever his feelings are and hers are, they have real feelings for each other.

Now, is that love? Is it going to end up in an engagement? Eh. Oh, I believe that it it will i don't know if it's going to end up in a in a marriage there we go sorry an engagement but not a marriage yes i misspoke is it going to end up being a forever thing but i believe that whatever their feelings are right now okay are very true for each other i do want to they did not say i love you to each other this is an episode of performative falling in love and it was the joe and serena of it all that really kind of highlighted how just silly it all is when last week obviously it ended with joe and serena being like i'm falling and falling we're falling and Joe, the next morning goes,

so are you still falling for me? Which like he's being playful and fun, but like it pointed out just how silly that phrase is because like, what does that even mean? Again, we've talked about this before, but it's like he's checking in as if he's like, so you're falling, but like, are you like, are you falling like a feather? Like you're kind of floating

or like, are we talking bowling ball falling? Like at what rate of speed are you falling? And how velocity with which you are, when will you land? You know, can you imagine like if you like, you went to bed with like your girlfriend and they're like,

I love you. And then the next morning you wake up and you're like, so like, let's like re let's discuss that. But that's what makes, that's why falling in love makes it like, like I love that he said that because it kind of shined a light on the silliness of saying you're falling in love

because i get people have said that is like it's a thing to say that's on tv but people in paradise say it is a disclaimer of i'm not in love yet it's a right step to another step, right? So Joe's like, are you still falling? And he's like opening the door for like every fuck boy in the world to go on a date with someone. And on day off the bat, love bob him and be like, I'm falling in love with you.

Not call the girl for three weeks. The girl could call, be like, but you said you were falling in love but no babe i'm still falling sorry i didn't articulate it i'm like gliding i'm basically if you look closely i'm like three inches lower than i was before i'm falling but like just really i'm just kind of enjoying the scenery and just looking around so like yeah i'm i am totally still falling just i'm just gliding down very slowly. The new promo is going to be like Joe is a bird.

Just like flying around, kind of falling. It's just so outrageous that they're all just falling. So actually one of my favorite parts of this episode to talk about little John again is when he comes in and he's like, wow, like a lot of love this episode and he's asking everyone like so tell me about how you're falling in love and tell me about this and i'm like nothing explains what's happening better than the fact that little john is the one

who's giving the grand assessment about where all of he's like giving the check-in that just cracked me up because he took it really seriously he was doing a great job a great job i mean a great job the hosts are asked to do an impossible task and that is to act as if you know they're they talk in terms of like i'm bringing new people in and and it's an impossible task because little john is this like so i want to mix it up i want to do something different. And you're like, what is little, little John going to do?

Right. What is this crazy thing we're about to see? He's like, Oh, two normal people. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

I appreciate the effort of little John trying to sell. Like it's an impossible thing to try to sell. Right. And he is, he gave it his all. Yes. And I'm here. I'm here for it.

I mean, I love the voiceover too. Yeah. Like, can we ever go back to a normal narrator? No. Not for Parabellum. If Rob Mills is doing his job, he is trying to lock this in. Lock Lil Jon down.

Yes. For at least to be the voice of Bachelor in Paradise. It has to be. It's so good. Right? Absolutely. I don't care. I think so.

Whatever. He doesn't have to be your host. He can just be the voice. The voice. And I believe Rob has the vision. vision anyone can do it rob can it's rob i did want to add before we move on from kenny and mari what did you think about that date okay thank you glad for asking thank you i was neither turned on right or hungry like first of all can i say the tacos look disgusting yeah i literally i was watching this while doing my like ralph's online order and i was like going to order chicken taco ingredients and as i was watching i was like remove from cart removed from it made me not

wanting like if if i was like you know like nally and i watched together i was like i'm not in the mood at all and also like i don't need a midnight snack like i just it made me turn off from sex and food all at the same time first of all the poor woman who was there she's like are the tacos good i'm like oh my god let her out of the room number one number two i like i'm sorry call me prude call me whatever i'm not but mari's like comment about like, oh, Kenny wants my taco. He's told me before. I was like, I'm actually disgusted right now.

Like that was just maybe it was her like hearing that while seeing the tacos that look disgusting. But I was like, this has gone a little too far for me. And also the sour cream in the body. Oh, my God. For the sour cream. Oh, my God. I'm in the minority, but if I find sour cream to be disgusting. So off the bat, that's just like a non-starter.

No, a lot of people have that opinion. It's gross. But even if you like sour cream, like a milk type of like, it's not whipped cream. It was like dripping down her lip. And I was also confused because sour cream was disgusting. But then on, I don't know whose body it was on, but like it's a taco. Like you would just have to reach down, pick it up and eat it. Like there's no way to eat a taco off of another person.

It's not like the Riley sour, or not sour cream, whipped cream situation. Like that's easy to like lick off. I'm like, no, this is a meal. This is a full meal. There's been, that's a good point. There's been a lot of body licking this season. Yeah, and like food sharing, you know, food between people's mouths. Lady and the Tramp.

Yeah, Lady and the Tramp thing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like great TV. So I'm glad it happened, but I was like, this is like. As always, we are appreciative of the nonsense. And I've never said things like, just go home. And like, you know the all the again not the you know brendan and piper that was compelling tv right very like as soon as they

went home the rest of last week's episode got a little boring and right we'll never say go home or why are you doing this because we literally have a show where we're like critiquing it and talking about it so thank you and i just sometimes wish the audience members would have a show where we're like critiquing it and talking about it. So thank you. And I just sometimes wish the audience members would have a moment and you'd hate on it. Right. Like have more fun. Also appreciate that these people are giving their heart and soul

and doing silly things for our benefit. Right. And I think that's why I am team Mari and Kenny because like I don't care what happens in the sense of like are they getting married For our benefit. Right. And I think that's why I am team Mari and Kenny. Because, like, I don't care what happens in the sense of, like, are they getting married and having a bunch of babies. But, like, I believe whatever they're doing. Like, the taco thing. Like, they had fun with that.

And, like, they wanted to have sex immediately, if not sooner. And, like, I believe that. So, like, there's nothing wrong with that. Because when people date in the real world, like, who's to say that within three weeks you decide you want to get married and have kids with this person maybe you just want to have sex with them like that's fine do we think it's a coincidence and i'm being rhetorical that the women that kenny has dated specifically demi and mari are leading with their sexuality to get his attention. Well, maybe that's just the type of girl he's attracted to, right? And like with, I was actually thinking, because when I'm not covering The Bachelor,

I cover a lot of like workplace safety for women and how women are perceived in media. And I'm interested to see how Twitter reacts to that date, because I saw it as Mari like completely owning her sexuality like she was the one who was like oh I'm taking off my clothes he's already seen me naked you know unfortunately we know that there will be at least a part of Bachelor Nation doing some light slut shaming and which like I will say right now again we don't know the reaction like I don't think that's cool because this is so clearly

unless there's something completely edited out and this was completely switched which we know would not be the case because if that ever came out it would be a disaster like mari was having fun and wanted to do this and she's very like you can tell she's a fun girl like she's a beautiful woman she was fine with it she's embracing it yeah she's embracing it she's like i'm taking off my clothes this is a fun date i think he's hot and i'm not gonna be here for the slut shaming that inevitably is going to happen i'm pretty confident that at least some people yes so i'm saying right now not here for it i'm not here for it that's not cool because why can Kenny walk around with like a fake black box the whole season and not get slut shamed

to be clear this is not me slut shaming at all like at all I'm just like the jokes being overplayed that's what I mean by a lot like the first time I was cracking up a tingle in my vagina like one time and then it's just like yeah and I don't know if you guys saw but

she posted. I actually after, I guess two weeks ago, I hadn't followed her. So I started following her on Instagram and she posted a text screenshot with her dad and her dad was like laughing. He was like, no, this is really funny. And I thought that was hilarious. My dad, by the way, would not say that. Yeah.

I did. Well, yeah. Tia clearly cares about her family she's close with her family she was referencing that this episode and uh as much as she was talking about her vagina i don't think tia i think she's also very self you know and rightfully so she is aware that people are watching her family and she must have felt comfortable with their family's support of of saying this i don't think i don't think tia's so reckless that she'd go on paradise say these things and go back home and be like oh can't

believe i fucking said that i just think it's funny because her first day there when she did the like naked volleyball she was like oh my gosh like my church watches my like my bible study group watches and then suddenly we went from like i don't know like all these people watch and she's like talking to her vagina and itm like being like what do you think this is getting into kind of like a tangential line from slut shaming it's like if a guy said that it would not be okay and when a girl says it it's a punch line yeah um can we talk about this was towards the end tia and what's his name with the title blake so i feel like tia is making something out of nothing but then blake has like an anger issue like he was very defensive with her and i didn't like that and maybe that's like as a woman but i was thinking like if a guy was talking to me like this i would feel very uncomfortable he was being so i at first

i'm like what is she doing like what's the issue here i don't understand she's making something out of nothing he's done nothing wrong but then his response i was like whoa whoa whoa whoa i don't think blake handled it well and you saw a guy get defensive 100%. Mm-hmm. There was something he said that I like really, really hated. Yeah, which I have no problem with hating things people don't like.

I guess I'm just getting uncomfortable with... We saw Tia out of nowhere, essentially because James gave her, like, had the art department present a block of wood that I guess looked like New York. I don't know. Whatever. Yeah, I didn't get that at all. Tia's got the rose.

Uh-huh. She has the power. Mm-hmm. And it's my opinion that Tia, she's like, I want you to earn this rose. I don't want you, Blake, to assume that this rose is yours. And despite the vagina references and the hot date, I was also as shocked as I was for Kendall and Ivan. I was like, when did James and Tia happen? I agree.

Blake and Tia, you mean? No, James and Tia. Yeah. No, I agree. Blake and Tia, you mean? No, James and Tia. James, yeah. No, I agree. I thought Blake and Tia were just like, they went on a date and locked in and that was like a legitimate, like they might get engaged.

And all of a sudden, like James is, like how James is still on the beach, truly magnificent. I agree with that. Like he's not particularly great TV. He seems like a nice guy. I mean, he's outlasted Demi.

He's outlasted Taj Juan, some real all-stars. And during the evacuation, he was like, if they've shut this down, people might not ever have a chance to find love. And that would be devastating. It was like, James, no, you're the only one who would leave here. Well, he said that.

He said, he was like, to leave single would be devastating. I believe James is there for love and he's playing by the rules and he's the only one. No, I agree with you i agree with you though like when did that happen when it's almost like there's this unwritten rule this season that you talk to someone for five seconds and it's a thing and i don't get like james and tia i don't even and she even made out with them which again totally fine you know i just was i i didn't realize she was a free agent right right

and she has the rose she whether she literally has the power by definition of the show and so she's just like yeah i get to decide who i get my rose to and so you have this i was under the impression that blake and tia were like a thing and then rewind you saw like when when um and i point so marissa goes you know the real we love we like love riley's beautiful man yeah right me too when he was like sunday morning my wife my kids scrambled eggs i was like and he was like you don't even my wife, my kids scrambled eggs. I was like. And he was like, you don't even know what I'm packing. I love. I'm obsessed.

Love everything about him. I love him. He's great. And I just find it fascinating. And again, I don't think there's anything right or wrong here. Marissa is saying, Riley's showing me. He's not telling me. Meanwhile, by the way, coincidentally or not, he is talking to, he's saying this to Tia

and Blake who are lying on top of each other. Right. They're canoodling, whatever. They seem to be inseparable. They're like, you know, reference to like a couple without like calling it out. And she's saying, I'm like, my love language must be like words of affirmation. I need to hear it. It's not just the actions.

Tia and Blake, the literal opposite. Tia is like, says to him, words don't matter. I need to see it. Tia references past relationships, past fuck boys, guys who she's been attracted to physically. And she seems like she takes these insecurities with the guy she's had a hot date solely based on the fact that a guy she doesn't like james gave her a block of wood right and and pine for her rose and fought for her rose

and and whether she likes him or not was like i'm willing to do this and takes that energy goes to blake and who she's been like cuddling with and spending all this time with for what i i think is three days right ish right and again unless they unless and unless they have a relationship outside the show which we're not aware of but like they've only known that for three days and then it seems to just come at them with like this fairly like aggressive it wasn't like hey. It wasn't like, hey, Blake. Right. So like, you know, just James, really sweet guy. He did this thing. And I'm not like into James.

And I really like you. And again, like I know roses and paradise, whatever. But like, I'd really want to hang out with you outside of this. But like, my love language, it's, I like acts of service and gifts. And, you know, it's just, I really like it when, it's, I like acts of service and gifts and, you know, it's just, I really like it when, this is how I may feel loved. And I know you say things, but I would really love it if you could do something like this. I don't know right now. I don't want you to do it just because I'm saying it, but like, just maybe make a note.

That's not what we got from Tia. We got very like, you know, and I didn't like in any way that Blake definitely got defensive. He showed definitely some aggressive energy, but I just saw a guy who matched Tia and I agree with you. I think we're going to see that

and I'm not trying to, like, I don't know anything about, like, we know nothing about Blake. Nothing. We see a guy who might look like a fuckboy. By the way,

I still don't, and I'll admit this, I don't remember him. At all. When he came, I was like, where did he come from? Has he ever been on the franchise? I literally was like, I don't recognize this person. When Tia first talked to him,

you saw this glazed look on his face like, what is going on? Right. And then in an you know an aggressive tone he was just like he literally he said to her he said i want to hang out with you outside of paradise he made it more clear than any guy on the beach about like kenny's this uh yeah you know a lot there's a lot of guys on this beach being very vague about tomorrow. Yes. And Blake is just like,

I was like, here's a Google Cal invite. We're locked in. Like, what do you like lock? I mean, should we go to like each other's families for Thanksgiving? You know,

like, right. He's and Tia's, she, he goes, what do you want me to do? She goes, I don't know.

Like, you know, I'm so it just, what? After saying, I want you to take initiative in that conversation. She's like want you to take initiative and he's like what do you want me to do and it's like that's not taking initiative my guy to use your term he showed some aggressive energy i think i agree with you i think they're both in the wrong because i don't i still don't understand what tia's upset about and she didn't explain that carefully and she like she didn't explain that so I don't know what she's upset

about and I could understand Blake being very confused like where did this come from what are you upset about because as the viewer if I'm confused imagine him but the way he reacted was very jarring to me and again let's take a step back and realize like there's cameras he's confused it's a reaction but i was just thinking i would be very uncomfortable if i were her how he was reacting that said i don't understand her i still don't understand what she's upset about i don't think that there should be this horrible reaction and we'll see like i don't think it would be fair to completely just like like he should not be canceled like that's not what i'm saying i want to make that clear i but i think you're right i wouldn't be

shocked if you see some very aggressive language calling out blake's actions right and probably placing it further on the spectrum of bad behavior than it is. Like on the spectrum of bad behavior in that way, he's very, very elementary. It's like, yeah, he was kind of still Molly.

He was a little aggressive. We don't know the full conversation. Like they, as you said, Nick, they film 24 seven and we're seeing a piece. So we don't know what happened before that. We don't know what happened after.

What I saw is I don't know why Tia's upset and that could be very confusing for him but his reaction to me was was jarring tia to me was like huffing and puffing and i don't understand what she was upset about but then he the whole scene was very confusing to me because i was just like what is happening and how did we get here and like what are we angry about like i don't understand i watch these like just fights or whatever you want to call them and it's we like try to apply it to real world stuff and i'm just like i've been in in fights with girlfriends where it didn't feel like they were trying to solve all your problems what they wanted to do is tell me how they felt and they have the the right to do that. Tia has a right to tell Blake how she feels, whether she's projecting about bad relationships or not, fine.

How we go about expressing that and communicating that is really going to dictate how productive a conversation is going to go. And when one person starts off accusatory and aggressive, I mean, like... It's like setting up for failure. Yeah. What I've loved to have seen Blake saying, accusatory and aggressive i mean like it's like setting up for failure yeah right and what i've loved to have seen blake saying hey okay i just want to say i like you what how could i go like yes i didn't like his aggressive tone but i'm just saying i just i saw

him matching to you right not necessarily you know what would solve this all if she just went back to talking about her vagina yeah like things were so much more simple should we because we have before we end should we get to the marissa riley date of like a different a very different conversation on the episode well yeah well i just think it's kind of funny that again like you had marissa and tia wanting two different things and to me this is like a just a really good example of uh people you know love languages they literally had a date about it on claire season uh we're so quick to talk about our love languages and how we receive love and what we want. And a lot of

people often forget the other side of that is how does your partner receive love language and what's easy for them? Not only how do they receive it, but like if, if like gifts for me, like, I don't need you to buy me a gift. It doesn't do anything for me right subsequently like i don't think of giving someone a gift as a way of showing my love to them now that doesn't stop them from wanting gifts if and if they feel that's their love language i gotta step up and i gotta do that and so many and so what you have here is like people literally just not taking the time to saying why like how do you feel love how do you wouldn't that be so refreshing on the speech if people had like an adult conversation like how do you feel how do you give love or how do you receive

love what makes you feel the most loved right not just on this beach like in life in general yeah i've had like people on dates ask me my love language like i've had two guys recently well i feel like that's now a thing yeah in the past year i feel like that became like sure a buzz totally but i'd love just people like not just stop there you know right let's like we've talked about on the show and when i like i'm all the all the i'm falling in love stuff oh God. What I have loved to see just one of these people go. What is it about me? That is making you fall for me. A hundred percent.

A hundred percent. Why do you feel the way you do? Right. Right. You know, and I loved how honest Marissa was. How real. Like we talked about the top of the show. This fear of her having the conversation with Riley

because she needs to hear it from Riley. Her love language seems to be some version of words of affirmation. All the swag and attention and hand-holding. And loyalty that he's showing. And loyalty is great for Marissa, but she needs to hear it. Right.

And she has the right to need that, right? And she is afraid to say that to him for fear that he won't want that. And I give her a lot of credit for having the conversation because so many people in the real world will literally avoid that for months. I know. No, I loved that. And I thought this was a very real world situation. And also, I get it because I'm a total words of affirmation person. It's like I understood this. I was like, he's showing it to your point. He's showing his loyalty, but she just needed him to say that. And I like that she expressed it. And then he opened up more. So in turn, this ended up being this really productive conversation. And now she's getting scrambled eggs and bacon.

Yeah. And again, back to Riley's story and very personal and very real and very touching and a great moment for everyone to enjoy as a viewer. But yeah, just the... Yeah. And the way she says says i think one thing that i really liked about marissa was that after that she was like i needed that like not only did she ask for it but she then like when it was provided like reinforced the good behavior and was like thank you like i appreciate that i get that that was a big deal for you so it's like that

acknowledgement of like both people are like meeting the other person where they're at and expressing gratitude. And if you look at the Marissa and Riley and Tia and Blake, you know, Marissa didn't sit Riley down and started off by basically saying, what the fuck, Riley? Yeah, no, you're right. See, this is why conversation is so good, because my initial reaction, which was just, you you know watching the episode was i was very turned off by blake and now talk this is why it's so important for all different people to talk male perspective female perspective because you are x now that i'm thinking it back tia went in and was kind of attacking yeah and it doesn't excuse either tia or blake that's the thing it doesn't excuse either of them but they were both wrong yeah and we could all learn from marissa yeah and because like yeah what blake is not is someone capable of being the mature one in the situation rising above de-escalating de-escalating a situation yes but i also want

to say well that's great, many of us are not, and I haven't always been, I feel like I definitely am now in my life, but I, I wasn't right. Um, and yes, all the more important that when you feel like you're missing something to not

project, you know, like Tia clearly projected and we heard it. I mean, he reminds me of this and blah blah blah and she got mad right you know she was mad about it she was like mad at herself for falling to the same fucking guy she's always falling for and that anger was directed towards blake marissa on the other hand we've heard about her relationship struggles her fears

not being in a real relationship not having a guy open up and instead she just was like i just i'm so afraid to say this but i'm gonna say it i don't know what you're gonna say back and riley like match that energy absolutely and you know would we love would we love to see a tia do that? And then, or, you know, whether it's a guy or girl and then they, and someone say, okay, Hey, first of all,

I just want to, I want to be there for you. I just want to make that clear. If I didn't go, I'm sorry for whatever I'm not doing that. I'm a little confused. I'm confused, but like,

I'd love to, I'd love to do what it is, whatever it is you want me to do. Right. How can I get there? That Blake did not do that. And, you know, I think, I don't know him. I didn't even know who he was a week ago.

But I'm guessing when Blake watches this back, he'll be really embarrassed. And he'll probably say, I'm not proud of that behavior. And I agree that Tia went into it in a very unproductive way but there's a because there's a level on the show and i because maybe it's because i've been there because i see it in these people's faces anytime i don't care what your gender is you get called out by someone they're like we talked about with justin last week they're all aware it's a show in fact the only thing that there's nothing they're more aware of while they're all down there

and every word they say, maybe other than Joe, is this is all going to be played out on TV. I don't want to look bad. And so Tia comes at Blake and that glazed look on his face is a one of, fuck, like this panic.

Right. Now, which makes his reaction even worse because you think he would know better but then he starts like like snowballing snowballing and not handling it well but I agree I think he's gonna feel yeah you'll get because you're right you're just like

and I saw that when you saw us yeah I will say I don't know why Tia's there. I kind of feel like she, like, it's enough. Yeah. I think the same Becca, Tia, Kendall. I agree. Well, they played musical chairs.

It felt like a game of musical chairs the first episode. And then if you didn't get your pair, you were kind of like, oh, good luck. Right. But I mean, like, we'll see now with Blake. But Tia is like into Blake. Like we saw that. Like she is, she wants him. Like she's into him.

So that's fun. But just my initial reaction, I'm like, why? Like I kind of feel like Natasha. Like you tried dating the real world. Yeah. I don't know. Listen, they want to be on TV. It's that simple.

And that's fine. Right. No judgment. But let's not pretend. Right. That's not the case. yeah i don't know this they want to be on tv it's that simple and that's fine right no judgment but let's not pretend right that's not the case we have to wrap things up but i do want to spend five minutes talking about you without uh you have you referenced reliable sources as you broke the news of the next bachelor yes uh did you name him it did yes um clayton eckard i think i don't i think it's eckard eckhard i'm not quite sure but that's his name this is not as it says in my story on variety not confirmed officially the network the studio would not respond to this story um they never do by the way on anything with casting but and i should say i've

heard what you've heard you've heard what i've heard look anything can change like we've seen with seasons past they film like all this background and then they change their mind but as of now as of today he is the bachelor i think they're all in i got a text message from one of my like a producer Don't reveal your sources. The producer. I won't reveal. Yeah, kidding. Thanks for the note.

Yeah. Asking me what hair product I used. Oh. And they didn't say for who, but it was for The Bachelor. It was for their bachelor. Okay. They asked me about like haircut and hair product because their next bachelor was looking for some notes.

Okay. Clayton does have curls. Similar hair. Similar hair. Wait, can you... I'm going to recruit you to work with me on my next story because look at this investigative work. You're like, he has the same hair. He the same curls they didn't say they didn't say for who but they

didn't ask for some i yeah i i did some digging um i all by the way i was also the one who you know whenever it was a year ago broke the news that katie thurston was going to be the bachelorette and that was before they announced Michelle also who by the way I'm so excited for Michelle's season I I think she's going to be one of the best I think she's going to treat she knows that this

is a TV show and she's also looking for the real thing I think she's going to be amazing I can't wait I think she has a maturity in the intelligence to fall in love. And like they love their bachelorette to stand up for themselves. Right. And that's.

Yes. However, at times that has turned into the bachelorette. Just, you know, like everyone knows I was not a fan of like Katie at AFR and how like it was reading Redditdit and all that crap yeah no i by the way i've i think i've tweeted this i was not a fan of katie's season it was like probably one of my least favorite seasons ever and while i thought hannah brown was an excellent bachelorette like some of it is you know like i guess what i'm trying to say is michelle i think will very much be able to stand up for herself but do it in a way that is she will not lose any of her grace while doing it she's an elementary school teacher it's like handling like a room full of like 30

rowdy people because like that is her element uh 30 like rowdy men might be worse than 30. she's also like lovely in person too like i've had people meet her in minnesota i haven't had i haven't had the pleasure of meeting her because like again like i thought had people meet her in minnesota i haven't had i haven't had the pleasure of meeting her because like again like i thought katie there were times where katie was 100 performing she i agree was this is my moment i'm going to yell at these men and katie's not the first one who's done that so i'm not trying to pile on katie but i i really think michelle will be everything we love in a bachelorette and then some by not losing any of her grace by doing so. I agree. And she will be empowered and stand up for herself and be excellent. I agree. And I agree exactly with what you said about Katie. She's not the first one to do it,

but I think sometimes people lose sight of what's happening and they fall into the trap of a tv show and i don't think michelle is going to do that at all um i'm so excited a pretty good job of that too tasha oh tasha's pretty polished i tasha's one of my favorite bachelorettes i think she's great big fan of her but i okay so back to clayton, the next Bachelor. We really don't know much about him, but yeah. I got it from inside the bubble, inside the team. I was like, you know, why did you choose your next Bachelor? I got he really connected with some of Michelle's students who made an appearance on the show.

They loved him, and he loved them. So I don't know if that's just a nugget about their next bachelor ben higgins vibes because that was when ben higgins won the room was when he was like a really good at the sex ed date i guess i mean it's not hard to be good with kids he's like he's kind of like a jack-of-all-trades and has like a lot of things going for him like played for the seattle seahawks i mean they love their show loves themselves like an almost athlete almost pro athlete yeah i mean look here's the thing he fits the mold oh my god the bachelor fits the mold but i think i like to think that one of my skills is being perceptive of people and just from literally looking at

photos of him and knowing nothing about him he looks like a really nice guy like he doesn't look like he's cheeseballing it he doesn't look like he's putting it on for the cameras he looks like a genuine nice guy he looks like i i i definitely go in the back symbol because maybe it's maybe it's ben hibbigan vibes i mean we got he's instagramming his meal plans he's like he packs a meal plan it's very he's very he does also seem nice but also incredibly broey a lot of like i i'm really i'm just hoping that he brings more than table than platitudes and and being grateful for the experience right and then talking about like his workout routines i i i'm just a hundred percent you know um this obviously wasn't their first choice you know with timing i you know

the timing's tough with with yeah i think for whatever reason they opted not to go with greg i think they opted to not to go with Andrew I think Michael it's unclear I think my my sources said that timing and it was just a personal challenge it just it didn't it didn't work out right and but they seem to chose this Clayton guy over Greg and Andrew right for whatever the reasons are and I just i just hope like michael i loved him i've interviewed him just dynamic and introspective and interesting and had something to say and knew how to articulate that and i guess i'm just hoping because there has been a track record of not much depth not much depth and i do think the show has changed as we talked about it

before bachelor nation is expecting and rightfully so, more of their men. Right. They want more. This is not the same audience who fell in love with Sean Lowe. Right. Right. It's just not. Right.

And the boys that, you know, Bachelor used to like to cast boys and turn them into men on TV. And that is not what Bacheloratch Nation wants anymore right and you've seen that through all these guys you know the Peters and the Matt James where you're like excited only to be like right these are boys right and I and I hope they've casted a man yeah I well said Nick I cannot agree more and obviously we haven't seen Michelle's season. We don't know why the producers fell in love with him. Hopefully there's a compelling story there that makes us want to see more of him. But I would have loved to see Michael as The Bachelor. I would have loved it.

I would not have loved to see Greg. My personal opinion. I agree. So who knows why? I mean mean you spoke to him who knows why michael didn't do it he's also a father maybe that i remain optimistic about the future and the possibilities of uh who knows who knows who knows but he from face value he seems like a nice guy um elizabeth been a pleasure been a pleasure uh really enjoyed our conversation please let the people know where they can find you follow you read your stuff and enjoy the great content you put out in the world thank you so you can follow

me on social media at e wagmeister and all of my work is at Variety both in the magazine and Variety.com and we just launched a new show at Variety called The Take it comes out thank you Nick it comes out every Friday

so go to Variety.com to watch The Take and we should have you on The Take happy to come okay let's do that holding you to it

no problem okay we'll do it thanks for listening guys we can't thank elizabeth enough for joining us don't forget to subscribe five star review all that fun stuff tomorrow we have amelie zilber uh with a fantastic episode an incredible uh young woman with so much uh to offer and just really uh you know she's of the tiktok community but not what you'd normally expect. She's doing more than dancing, people,

and really enjoyed my conversation with Amelie. Don't forget to check out our Ask Nick episodes every Monday if you're interested in people's dating stories, their fears, their challenges, a lot of relatable experiences, and be sure to check that out. And next week, Bachelor in in paradise fans we have the wonderful brie and kit breaking down next episode of bachelor in paradise you won't want to miss

that thanks for listening we'll see you oh just keep listening for amelie amelie is literally the episode is out just keep listening great thanks bye you