The Viall Files - E327 Bachelor In Paradise Recap With Manny Gutierrez

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

On today’s Bachelor Recap we are joined by make-up artist, YouTuber, entrepreneur, and beauty blogger, Manny Gutierrez to recap the finale of this season of Bachelor in Paradise! In this recap we dive into how recaps can change how people view situations, Abigail and Noah’s breakup, Kendall being brought back, and the legitimacy of Thomas crying. We also talked about the power of a proposal, how relationships are tested after the show ends, and upcoming news about the new host of The Bachelorette!  “Would you care less about the couples if they didn’t get engaged?”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  For merch please visit http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Rothy’s: Go to http://www.Rothys.com/VIALL to get $20 off your first purchase.  Fable Home: Go to http://www.FableHome.co and use code VIALL to get 15% off your first purchase.  Philo: Go to http://www.Philo.tv/VIALL to get 25% off your first two months. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @mannymua733 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to the finale bachelor in paradise recap we have made it through this season congratulations to everyone who has endured all the craziness and we have a fantastic episode for you to break this episode down did that even make sense we manny gutierrez is back in studio baby we're back uh manny is back for the second time recapping was it a bachelor in paradise was a bachelor it was like i think it was bachelor bachelor either way the audience loved you oh hi guys you are here back i'm a fanatic i am a bachelor nation yeah i'm part of the nation we we love a uh i am a citizen and i will not be getting revoked. We love a professional, an expert, if they will.

Yes, absolutely. Before we get into the recap, just a couple housekeeping notes. We have a great Ask Nick episode for you out with more gaslighting conversations, conversations um lessons learned on maybe the uh the risk of just throwing out that word and the drama that can unfold and our ability to still stand up for ourselves set our boundaries enforce our boundaries without ever maybe having to i don't know use that word but anyways it's a fantastic episode uh there were some technical issues for those of you who maybe listened to our Ask Nick episode and maybe heard a story we've used before. That has been fixed.

We've taken that repeat story out. The person responsible for it is now serving a 30-year prison sentence. Life in prison. No parole. No parole. No parole. We apologize. prison sentence life in prison no parole we apologize that's what happens to chrissy you know absolutely in the in the it's really serious here we like to think we're more professional anyways i digress also we have a fan text episode with emily didonato is probably out

by the time you're getting this episode keep. Keep listening for that episode. If you don't know who Emily is, Emily is, well, just a wonderful woman with great perspective, but has got her start in the modeling arena. She's been a Sports Illustrated model. She's big time. Also, first pregnancy, married. So a lot of perspective on entrepreneurs. She's doing a multifaceted woman who's also a Bachelor fan. We don't talk too much about that, but wonderful conversation with Emily.

I've been wanting to have Emily on for a long time, and she did not disappoint. One of my – like, I really just enjoy talking to her. I don't want to be hyperbolic and be like they all seem like my favorite episodes but you won't want to miss that so keep listening um for that episode after you get through this one is there anything else we're missing uh we have a i guess a week off next week thank god for everyone yeah until we go right into the bachelorette yeah we're working on getting ivan on um oh yeah so we'll see we'll see if it happens um you know this week i think it's about the couples we gotta like support all the happy love stories absolutely we don't want ivan drama taking that so we'll see if it happens well i'll just leave

it at that we'll see if it happens I would like to know what happened We would like to hear Ivan's take on it So look out for that I don't know And we'll see what happens Before we get into Bachelor in Paradise Recapping Let's talk about the new host

Of The Bachelor Yeah Jesse Palmer. Your reactions? I guess I think we won't spend too much time on this, but it's worthy to talk about. It also still seems completely unclear. Like, is Jesse Palmer the host of The Bachelor?

Is he now the permanent host for all things Bachelor, like Bachelor in Paradise Bachelorette oh yeah or is it just the Bachelor they have I don't feel like they've necessarily made that clear I feel like it's going to be for the Bachelor and Bachelorette I feel like they're looking for a permanent host for the Bachelor Bachelor in Paradise, who knows? I think a lot of people were underwhelmed. Yeah, I was whelmed. I wasn't very like,

oh my God, that's so crazy. I was just like, okay. Like I wasn't like, I literally did not think about it. Like I was like, oh. I was like,

time to Google Jesse Palmer. Yeah. And I had seen him on like, he was like a host of a baking show I watched. Yeah. And so I was like, oh my God,

he does hosting stuff. So I think for a lot of people, and here are my thoughts, is that I think for a lot of people, including myself, thought this was an opportunity for the show to bring in a host that could add some additional value and bring the show up to be a little bit more relatable to the times and maybe bring in a little bit more i don't know like help guide more progressive conversations and what's clear to me is that this show made an active decision to say we're not interested in that we just want to go back to our roots um you know i don't think they're interested in having a host be a mentor you know for example like the caitlin and tasha role that they've been playing on katie season i suspect to see more of the same michelle's the mentor role i i think they're actively deciding that they don't want their host to do

that got it uh is my guess because like for example like jesse palmer he was the bachelor like 15 years ago to call him an alumni relative to like wells or myself or ben higgins or caitlin or tasia i think is disingenuous the show is completely changed it's a different audience i don't think he has any active relationships with the producers on the ground making the show. Yeah. But he has a relationship with ABC. He works for ESPN. He's calling football games.

He calls X's and O's. He hosted the proposal. He's been hosting the surfer shows. So there's a lot of synergy there. And I think there's a cross-promotion opportunity opportunity i think it was a very business-like decision yeah i think they probably aware of the fact that the show is hoping maybe for a little bit more diversity with their decision or something a little bit more exciting my guess is the show my guess is abc uh took a couple big swings at a couple big names didn't happen and

they're just like fuck it let's just go with jesse palmer and i think they opted not to go with a more recent alumni like a wells or caitlin and tasia or myself or ben uh because you know jesse again has the actual hosting experience and like you know for me i was just thinking like are aren't you gonna get a host that's gonna do more than just remind the people watching it who are like watching it on their phones that there's one more rose left like yeah they literally you know like are they gonna hire a host that's gonna do more than just count yeah i think the answer is no i think you know all jokes aside i think they're literally just going to look for jesse to come in on probably be more of an i feel like because he's not very familiar he's probably going to be more

authoritative sure yeah he'll come in and be like he's a stranger in a lot of ways yeah he'll be like hey this is what's happening you know because i thought to myself at when i first heard about it like what the fuck would jesse palmer say to katie when the whole greg thing was getting her out of the bathroom jesse palmer like what the fuck is he gonna happen what is he gonna say and the truth is like he's not gonna say anything because they're if if jesse palmer was a host they just wouldn't have brought him in. They'd just let Katie cry. Yeah, exactly. You know? Maybe it would be a woman producer who, like, you just, you know, they've done that before.

So they're just, they're not going to do that. They're just not going to have those mentor roles. I think you're going to, and whatever you think of, like, the role or job that Caitlin and Tasha have done, you know, whether you liked it or disliked it, like I think the biggest disadvantage of both of them had was the fact there was two of them is a little clunky that you could tell they're both trying to like split time.

Yeah. But ultimately I thought they were fine. And they add like, I thought Caitlin in that moment was great. It's like a woman supporting woman. Caitlin didn't say much, but it was still nice to see. She could empathize.

And that was a nice moment. But did that change the show no like say what you want about the role that caitlin and taisha are doing like it didn't impact the show at all it had no like the show you know that's not the lasting impression of katie season like at all there's so many other like memorable moments that it's not about cait Tayshia. So the show is this, my guess is just said, it doesn't matter. We're just going to have someone we trust. We're winning Monday nights or Tuesday nights,

whatever fucking night it's on. And we're just going to keep doing what we're doing. We're not interested in having a host do more. We're not interested in being a mentor role. You're just not going to see those moments. Like this new bachelor guy who we don't know anything about yet. he's a kind of a former football player like maybe they'll be like you know jesse giving a weird football metaphor right when talking like let's go let's go toss some let's go toss you know that the new bachelor is going to be like hey man i'm just like not sure

and he's just like you know when it's fourth down you just like gotta go for it instead of only three more yards to the touchdown line we just got to lunge i think that's the most we can hope for like here's the one challenge i do i think here's the one thing that i am curious about and i wonder if abc considered is that chris harrison did not lose his job for something he did or didn't do while hosting the show he lost his job for something he said in an interview right And the host of the show is expected to be the spokesperson of the show. And recently, the show and the audience has wanted to have conversations

about things like racism, diversity, emotional abuse, gender dynamics, like, you know, with Demi. Yeah, bisexual relationships and is jesse palmer the guy to have these conversations like i don't know i don't know jesse palmer i know he's been calling x's and o's like i don't know if we had jesse on i mean clearly he's media and we had he's media trained but that's what i'm saying like historically you got away with a host that

was just more like hey man like i'm just here like just a suit it's just a super like hey guess what most dramatic season ever you know but like the show has evolved the audience has evolved there's a greater expectation the show i don't know if the show wants to be but the show has become like ingrained in pop culture and and and in society and in social media are wanting to have these conversations the show is about dating and relationships and now more than ever whether i agree whether people should be just saying the word gaslighting that's the stuff that's going on and having k and conversations about is that what we're seeing is that what this is trying to bring some levity having a thoughtful discussion like that's where chris harrison rachel lindsey tried to have a thoughtful discussion with

chris harrison and chris harrison just stepped in it right yeah and is jesse palmer either going to be media trained enough to like ignore that conversation or is he not going to be the spokesperson are they going to be very careful of the conversations they're going to let him have or is he going to want to have how long can they get away with that you know what i'm saying like bachelor nation wants to have these conversations and they're having them on podcasts and things like that and i'm like at what point when jesse palmer gets asked about like do you think greg was gaslighting katie what the fuck is jesse palmer gonna say i don't even know he's gonna know he's he couldn't even know the answer and that's the thing is i don't know he could like maybe he's an incredibly emotionally intelligent and articulate guy but i

think there's certain things we have no reason to think that the identities he holds is like white dude and that's not disqualifying of like him being able to have insight insights on race but it does mean that you know he is coming at these conversations with a limited perspective he's been calling football games with a predominantly male audience he hasn't necessarily been listening to women's stories and and empathizing with their like what they have to go through we just we have no idea maybe he'll really pleasantly surprise us but it's it's not a choice where it seems like those were things that were like paramount to the search or that no i think

i think it was a business decision it was we have a relationship with this guy we like him he's polished he's good i mean i don't know him but he seems like a nice enough guy he's we're familiar with him he's hosted other shows he's working for our sister episode sister network esp and there's some cross promotion opportunities and like whatever well it's like jesse can you say there's one more rose left great all right you're hired but i'm just really wondering what role jesse will have in the press as it relates to discussing this show and will he be someone that the show relies on to like drive thoughtful conversations about some of these topics that Bachelor Nation so desperately wants to have. And I guess we'll see.

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not.com,.co. That's right. Head over to fablehome dot co and use the code v i a l for 15 off your first purchase if you're looking to uh upgrade your dinnerware at such a reasonable price look no further than fable home dot co well let's get into the episode yeah the recap manny this episode opens up with the abigail and noah breakout uh also but before i do get into that i just want to say i really in the intro when little john goes like really soft and like sincere and empathetic love it it's like the cutest also most jarring thing in the entire world he's like in noah and abigail broke up but then joe it's like the range for little range little john has so much kiss for that range excuse me little john little john that does both oh god so shout out to little john in our life. Just really, really enjoyed that.

Back to Noah and Abigail. I had thought that we had moved on from that breakup, but this episode opens up with more. With more. Abigail in the bathroom. Abigail in the bathroom. You know, interestingly enough, I pivoted on whose side I was on.

I feel like a lot of people last week as it ended at least understood Noah, right? Because usually when, especially in this show, when a man is breaking up with a woman on the show, it's hard to navigate that and not be the bad guy. Got it. It's just, you know, it's harder to do. Got it. But I think a lot of people understood Noah's point of view. He's like, I think I'm falling in love with you. Like, I'm pulling, I'm pulling, I'm pulling.

And like, I don't know. Maybe I don't want to pull anymore. And Abigail just kind of sat there and didn't know what to say. Maybe she has a hard time. Whatever her reason is, you know, it's not the end of the world. But I understood Noah. And then this opened up. And at first I was like, oh, maybe I see Abigail's point of view.

But before I give kind of how I thought, what was your take on the Abigail and Noah? And as it started to pivot from Abigail saying, well, I was going to tell you I was falling in love. What did you think? Well, I was like super confused actually, because I thought the entire time that Noah was being super open and honest with his feelings. And I can relate to Noah in the way of being like, okay, if I'm giving and giving and giving, and I feel like I'm not getting anything back, I start to turn this like switch off in my head where I'm like, they're not interested, I need to be uninterested too.

So I think in my mind, if he's over here being like, oh, well, you know, I'm falling in love with you, no response from her from the last week, she just literally just like blank stare. It's a very vulnerable position. It's a very vulnerable thing. So as soon as that happens and you don't get that like receiving back,

I'm like, okay, well, let me just turn this off real quick because i just became open i just got shut down let me start to not like you anymore totally and then if you're no not only that then you start kind of reflecting on the relationship and go wait a second i've been polling this whole time yeah maybe you're just not there and that's okay totally but but your feelings are you're still you're feeling exactly it starts to get turned off then like that's just what it is so this episode opens up with abigail being like kind of like what the fuck you know abigail's just like wait i she she's getting angry she's just like why are you breaking up with me this seems like bullshit and for a moment i was like abigail was kind of winning me over with like wait a second you know why yeah you know my first

thought was yeah abigail has a point like if you are going to open up to someone and say hey i think i'm falling in love with you what do you get like does the person receiving it like a 24-hour window to like don't they get to marinate on this like kind of big uh declaration and she said she didn't hear it initially that like kind of the way he said it in conversation yeah like in passing it hadn't registered for her fully so to your point what do you mean in conversation like he kind of slipped it into conversation so i think she was saying it didn't fully like register to her as like i'm falling in love with you can we buy that yeah i think that she used you can hear something and not realize that it was said until later i'll be like wait did that happen in the conversation especially if you're already having a conversation about something else and it just gets slipped were

they though i felt like this was like a a tv moment we all watched noah say it noah it was a moment but i think and us but abigail i don't think it was a moment for her that's what i'm saying okay fair enough but and i love abigail let me just say this has nothing to do with whether we don't love or like i it is what it is yeah we're not taking sides um but at the same time so at first i'm like yeah abigail was winning me over right but then i thought to myself well hold on yes and this that's how the show is it like that's that's why we are able to recap that's why we're able to have these discussions because what the show does and sometimes it's frustrating and it's because how it's what we get such a visceral reaction from the audience is that the show is trying to take as much as it can real world conversations and relationships and make it seem like this is a crazy world.

But real like world like situations still work in this world. For example, it's just like, like yeah it would be a normal thing to like have a declaration of love and like give that person like a moment to let it marinate and 24 hours later be like hey yeah i love you too but this is bachelor world things move insanely fast so in insanely fast that like mari and kenny have been you know back together for like a week and a half and are now engaged. And they're like, we've overcome such adversity. The other couple on the beach has been through this.

And it's like, y'all had one miscommunication. So like, you know, things happen fast. And so I can understand why Noah is just like, wait, like, this is not, this was a big bump in the road relative to the world that we're in. this was a big bump in the road relative to the world that we're in not to mention like abigail you know when she said oh wait but i was gonna say i love you at first i was like oh we'll put it no there you go that should change the game but abigail didn't say that right away it wasn't like as soon as noah started breaking up with her he was like i was like wait before you say anything i'm falling in love with you she didn't do that right she waited till like they they literally had at least two full conversations they had one conversation then they like separated and like went to the bathroom and

you know then they came back talk some more and then she just kind of was like but i was also that seemed like a very convenient time to be like well just so you know i was gonna say that like right maybe you were maybe you weren't right i don't know but it seemed like a very convenient time to be like, well, just so you know, I was going to say that. Like, right. Maybe you were. Maybe you weren't. Right. I don't know.

But it seemed like Noah at that point was like, I just don't think you're going to like, I don't know. It seemed like Noah had made a decision. He didn't buy it. And what did you what did you both make of the way that Noah broke up with her? Because I think there was one point where he'd said a few different times you're not my person and then in the at the end of the episode last week abigail had been like please stop saying you're i'm not your person and noah said it again i'm just curious like overall what did you think of his strategy for any strategy i i i saw a guy trying his best to you know when you break up with someone as we talk about like on ask nick stuff like you the the kindest thing when you break up with anyone is to be as honest as possible while

trying to be as kind as possible but don't be so kind that you don't tell the truth and the truth can hurt by just simply being honest so you can set them free so you're not saying things like maybe and we'll see and you're not trying to lead them on because you're afraid they're going to cry or hurt their feelings you you have to be direct and that sometimes can come across as curt and short and sometimes even insensitive insensitive but that insensitivity will sometimes allow a person to move on right so like i felt noah was as gracious as he tried to be and he tried to like drive home a point to say yeah i i this i this is my decision this is how i feel and you might think i'm the bad guy

but this so i felt like no i did a fine job like i don't know if everyone like you know people watching it might have been triggered by this experience or the breakup they might have had or felt like uh you know i'm sure a lot of people could see it as like no i just like threw out like and i love you and then like just decided to bail yeah like what the fuck and i could totally understand why some people saw it that way but either way he made a decision he was pulling and pulling and pulling abigail she didn't open up it's bachelor world things are heartened everything's extreme so he made a rapid decision the show seemed like they wanted to for a moment act like they often do like this isn't a crazy world with crazy stakes in a limited time and they wanted to like

paint a picture and give an alternative point of view of like wait are you not allowed to like let things marinate yeah and that's for the audience to sit there and for us to discuss but i i thought he did a decent job philo that's right for all you people out there that love watching your favorite movies and favorite tv shows and don't want to pay an arm and a leg for channels you don't need and don't watch philo is your streaming platform that you need to get. I started using streaming platforms, Philo being one that just absolutely saved me so much money. I was paying like $150 for that cable. All these like movie channels and blah, blah, blah. And then a bunch of shows I never fricking watched.

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and Noah puts his arm on Abigail and she's like and she like throws his arm off her shoulder and I was like I was screaming at that part but because like you can understand her emotion and you can understand his and I think that's like the part that makes it so like give and take in such a pool on our heartstrings. Cause like I can understand being Abigail.

I can understand being Noah. And that's why it's like, so in a way really real because it's like, I get both sides. Totally. I overall, to your excellent point, I don't know if, I don't think anyone's a bad guy here. I don't know if anyone did anything wrong. It's, it's a breakup and breakups include

hurt feelings and suck yeah they suck they're not fun like no one's like he he's literally crying to her like literally crying being like i'm so sorry that i'm hurting you right now but i have to do what's right for me and she's like what the fuck and maybe her too and her too because how like we always do this in breakups right you we don't even know and maybe abigail doesn't know in that moment what her real feelings are right how often do we change how we feel in the moment when we start feeling rejected or we start losing something we didn't even think we wanted all that much but they break up with us and they beat us to it how many people have how many people listening have been in relationships where you're just like i don't even know if i want to i don't know if i like

them anymore and we have so many problems and i don't know where they're like hey i think we should break up and you're like wait what do you mean i love you you know so like yes that you know that that's a huge factor that could have been an abigail reaction so like maybe abigail left and thought you know what we aren't like there is a reason why I didn't say it back right away there's a maybe there is a reason why I didn't open up and like maybe Abigail will reflect back after leaving that intense situation and and appreciate what Noah did for like it could be a better thing for the both of them I also think that when it comes to like because even in the episode she was like I'm so embarrassed and it's like not only you're adding the embarrassment from like getting broken up first but you're adding the embarrassment being on national television getting broken up with first so it's like I think there's like this part of it that it's just like the feelings are multiplied because you're literally on national television and being like oh my god my feelings are like times 10 because everyone's gonna see me getting broken up with instead of being the one that's breaking up first

I totally That's like a huge thing i mean i can only imagine and i love i love it when they point when i love it when they air stuff like that because that's a great point abigail saying that i'm so embarrassed that is that's you saying out loud there are other reasons other than me losing this relationship that i'm hurting exactly you know and it's not my feeling it's not the loss of this person or those relationships it's my ego my pride the embarrassment i'm more you know being self-image like these are all these variables that go in to how these people feel. And when we were watching it back, we're just like, oh,

poor thing. But again, we all, even in, in real world, we get him like someone breaks up with us. Even if it's not on TV, we,

we think about like what our friends and family are going to say. Exactly. Oh, I have to tell people at work, you know, stuff like that. Oh my God. It's the worst.

Where it's like, oh, how's that going with that one guy? And you're like, will you stop talking? Like it's the worst where it's like oh how's that going with that one guy you're like will you stop talking like it's the fucking worst and we often will stay in shit and stay in relationships and and like yeah we'll stay in shit it will stay in yes relationships that are shit because of all these other factors factors that have nothing to do with our happiness in the relationship or or lack thereof and then oh my god the the fallout when noah like i love how the show tries to make a bad guy out of noah for noah

leaving i know i know and and it's not like is it the show i don't know like the show i guess is doing a good job of this is a real world thing that happens you know noah leaves whatever and then was it chelsea be like i can't believe he didn't say goodbye but like do you think he really didn't want to say goodbye or that they're like okay yeah he probably had no choice you should go also by the way like there have been plenty of times where i thought in like this this happens that's the funny thing about this and on other seasons and other situations you might think leaving like that it was the most was the noble thing to do to not make it about you to leave gracefully he has no idea what abigail's going to do i love that we're like noah and abigail are like like stop talking

to each other like in the hallway and they're like they say their final goodbyes and they just walk in separate directions i thought was kind of hysterical like who like that's not normal like it's not that's weird totally yeah like it's strange but it's a it's a show but it's a show like it's like it's what's and i'm brent no in that moment he's thinking like abigail's just gonna get in her car and go he's gonna get in his car and go and it's like abigail gonna have this whole like no she goes monologue she goes back to the party yeah she needs to go back to the party and talk to everyone barefoot yes just this dirty ass feet dirty feet just real just problematic yeah it just you know she's just

it's a reality that is the real reality we've seen she's like you know what i'm crying right now fuck my feet i get it i probably didn't even know right now how many times have we like been walking on a dirty floor and then you look you're like oh my god my feet are oh my god absolutely no i think abigail's gonna be mortified when she watches that but like who cares who cares it's fine abigail but she goes back she tells what chelsea mari serena serena and this the the next five minutes of the show made no fucking sense to me first of all did i miss something because i didn't rewind it back but why the fuck was serena crying and you could i did you make out anything she said she was sad that she was leaving

she was devastated for the situation I think she was shaken Because a really strong couple Oh my god Yes Oh my god Hysterically Someone breaks up and you get a montage of people Like oh my god

The new strongest couple broke up But they were voted most likely to succeed Oh my god That was fucking hysterical fucking die got this little pearl it is i was like not this happy ever after yes yes noah the prom barefoot james was just beside himself he was like but guys they just we literally just said you're inactive makes me want to to scream he's just like guys it's like yes but like if that's

not real like what who can we trust what what can we trust if not who can we trust like the innocence of James is endearing also I just shout out to James I mean real the real MVP of this whole season

to be – A sweet angel. Generally a sweet angel. Have absolutely no substantive relationships. Not one. Not one. The closest relationship with Aaron. Literally.

Yeah. And yet he was on the whole season. Yeah. Kind of impressive. The show that's predicated on uh making connections and musical chairs and if you don't have a connection you're gonna go home and he outlasted many every by being like less of a dick by being the most least problematic by being least problematic honest i you're right that was one of these episodes i can't remember

which one it was i literally slid into his dms was like you're so sweet and your bastard paradise doesn't deserve you and like that was it he never even opened it which is fine but like i was like it just felt like i felt for him in that moment you know and like one of the episodes can't remember which one it was i was like he seems so sweet and kind of nice guy he's nice so i just real real props to to james for james i don't think people fully appreciate how impressive it is what he did to i know make no bad guy without being a bad guy make no real connections and be in every episode this season he's really he's out here like hanging on a string i've done a lot of things in this franchise and i i really don't know how one would pull that off but he did like he really did it was really

impressive anywho his his his shock and awe of of noah and abigail breaking up after them receiving like like this award the congeniality award or whatever. I don't know what they won. But Serena is like. Beside herself. Beside herself. Like crying. Making. I literally didn't understand anything she was saying.

It literally was about like her being devastated that she's going. And she's like, I don't know how I can make it here without her. That's literally what she said verbatim. She said, I don't know how I am going to make it here here like she's been here the entire time with me with abigail leaving so she was devastated by abigail leaving and devastated the fact that they broke up and i think if anything what this helps explain and we mentioned this with brie and kit last week is that everyone there is fully in this bubble they are fully enwrapped Brainwashed is the only... And it's not because the show

and the producers are evil. It is a social experiment. When you lock yourself into a bubble, you will change your reality and you will start making just hyperbolic decisions. And that is what you're seeing here. I mean, with no phones,

like no phones, no TV, no nothing. It's like you're seeing here i mean with no phones like no phones on tv you don't know nothing it's like you're literally in a actual bubble yeah so well we're watching it and laughing and then just being like what are these people saying like that is why i think they're saying what they're saying and and the stakes are high the stakes are high because of the show and obviously there's a lot of talk about engagement and their decisions are all just kind of warped in this bubble. Finally, the cocktail party ends. We go to the rose ceremony. I was so angry.

So I said this two weeks ago. i'm really mad at the producers i don't blame natasha because again she's natasha deserved better than how she went home i truly fucking hated how and this is not a disrespect to ed even though ed had a really weird kind of awkward thing with McKenna. His whole entrance has been awkward. Like I really love Ed last week. I thought he was sweet and he came across as like, let's just make the best of situation. Love that for Ed.

And this is not a disrespect to Ed in this moment, but the fact that Natasha was at a rose ceremony, hoping for a rose from Ed is so beneath her it's tough like and honestly like there's just no way that you guys are gonna get engaged at that like you guys like he came so late yeah what the reality is that there's just no way like why why is natasha waiting for that pretending to like dr joe and we love dr joe i think joe like oh my god last time i was here we literally interviewed Dr. Joe. Yeah.

Thank you. That's literally what we did. He's amazing. Amazing. And a doctor. And like, I feel like he has like bachelor quality and material would be an interesting guy. But like, yes, like Natasha in such a late period of time, like, why didn't they just say to Natasha?

Hey, listen, you've been great. You're a rock star. You're one of the stars of our season. I think maybe you should go home on your own. And I don't fault Natasha because I think she's in the bubble. She's wrapped up in this. And do I wish Natasha was able to take a moment and say, Natasha, what the fuck? And yes, but I don't fault natasha because i know the

power of that world and i'm just really mad that we they let natasha stand there hoping for a rose from ed from ed only to not get the rose and just kind of just whimper away and she looked so pretty with her yeah pop of color lip. I was screaming. I'm like, you look so fucking exciting. Like she didn't deserve what happened to her. Throughout the whole season, to be honest. Yeah, but like I just, why so many,

like how many people have like gone home on their own and been like, hey guys, and have like a- It's been fun. It's been fun. I want to remove myself from this and give a goodbye i mean fuck they let um fucking ivan do that and like ivan was kind of like had a bad beat in that moment but he gave the whole like i'm gonna leave on my own and maybe that was ivan's decision i i don't doubt it but i wasn't gonna accept your roast chelsea anyway i know there are plenty of times

i know there were plenty of times i know there were plenty of times where like uh like it might be suggested be like hey man like why don't you just leave on your own and they don't have to but like the the idea is floated and why why wasn't that courtesy given to natasha you know i think it is too i think that at the core everyone wants to feel like they're going to be chosen. And I think that the idea of potentially being chosen and Ed picking her is so strong. And the idea of that is so strong because Natasha has been fucked over the entire season. And I think that the idea of being like, you know what?

I have this connection with Ed. I hope that he picks me is like a very strong feeling. No, I relate to the feeling. And also to even be on the show, you're someone who's been picked against all odds. Absolutely. So it makes sense that you would bring that mentality into the show itself.

And like I said, I'm more critical of the producers here than Natasha. Like it'd be easy to say, Natasha, why did you, like you're better than this. You should know better. But yeah, I... The feeling.

Like it's a strong thing. It's this late in the game. Natasha is just, you know, probably what happened to her with Brendan. She's trying to validate her experience. She she's trying to find a win and she's not thinking clearly and not thinking me leaving is a win on my own. I trust that Natasha feels that now, but I just,

I just hated that for an, I just hated that for her. Yeah. You wanted to see her cut her losses. Yes. Yeah. That was this. I literally was watching it and we're just like,

she's. And again, this is, I'm not trying to rip on Ed here. Like he seems like for the right person, he'll be great. But like that list late in the game, you,

there's clearly no real connection between, they had a nice date, whatever. Right. And she's sitting there. You saw the look of worry. Just like, I just want this rose. And I'm just like between like you were fighting over red or Ed with McKenna. This is so beneath you. Yeah.

Honestly, that's exactly how I felt, too. And it's devastating seeing her go home in the car. And she's just like truly devastated from the whole experience and it's just like i broke for her in that moment because i'm like you don't deserve any of this shit i really hated that for so i hate that for her justice for natasha and a lot of the season this season's drama was on the back of natasha yeah natasha gave us this season in a very big way she carried a lot lot of weight. She was a heavy lifter. Heavy lifter.

Thankless job. Thankless, thankless job. We thank you, Natasha. And some, you know, real, yeah, real, like, yeah. And no offense to Abigail, who, like, floated through and sat next to Noah in a hot tub all season only for her to have not responded to Noah and then be like confused and

get dirty feet but like what Natasha did for us episode after episode only to like not get Rose Ed's Rose she fed us a fucking crime she fed us well also I feel like giving dinner I also feel like dirty to get dirty feet is like similar to getting cold feet absolutely different i think the symbolism is real anyway let's let's move on period the next day happens um the breakups the breakup the the conversations you know well oh oh by the way no i'm sorry We need to discuss Mari coming back after talking. So you got the gossip. The gossip is real.

Chelsea and Mari having talked to Abigail. Oh, yes. And this woman, they're like, what happened? And Mari just like, well, apparently Noah said that, you know, he doesn't feel this way and he's been feeling it for a long time that never no one never uttered those words that was just a flat out like telephone game i'm not saying mario was lying but like she just heard abigail's version and then put her own spin on it and then moments later well i said that though noah's been playing him the whole time abigail kind of said that kind she kind of implied it and then she said it but she didn't include

other contextualizing details which is fine because she's talking he's known for days she said he's known for days and i'm like you can't just like throw that out there because i think well i think in that moment she's processing in real time and so she's regurgitating all of the takeaways that have been like most hurtful to her mind and so yeah it's a perfect instance of telephone yeah oh and you know what not trying to pile on mari here but i think it's a lesson we literally saw how these types of rumors can be so easily spread by just a small like a seed just a just an inkling of like your friend hurting and projecting like being mad and feeling like maybe let on even though it you know again your ego and your all these playing things playing a role and it turns into like he knew the whole time he fucking

branded her and like this is all about you know who knows and mari just comes in and just spreads that and that's that's what what that's what the whole house hears i will say though i realized in this episode like mari is a real girl's girl like she is there whenever there is someone who needs comforting mari is there and i hadn't realized that and it's like before i hadn't really noticed mari but i was like oh she's actually she's like very nurturing and she takes on a very like supportive maternal role which i was like okay shout out to mari she asked about the entire season yeah actually which i've noticed and i thought that was really really great very commendable totally she does like stick by the

girls okay because i feel like before i hadn't thought much about her as a character and then i realized that detail and i was like oh okay mari totally yeah and that's nice i mean i yeah being a girl's girl great i mean we hope that it's it is tough right i think we even had that caller in the ass nick episode talking about gaslighting and they're like well why would my friends think this and their friends think that it's like all your friends have your back you know and then i guess in adulthood we to, as Brie pointed out last week, sometimes just because they're your friends, you have to hold them accountable. But Mari props to you for being a good friend. But throwing Noah under the bus.

But while also throwing Noah under the bus. I don't think Mari meant anything by it. I think she just had Abigail's back regardless and that she was closer to Abigail. And she's going to take her side in that situation yeah especially when abigail is processing in that moment and she's devastated and crying and she's like going through the gigs and so mario's obviously gonna receive that and like oh my god like noah just after over when he told her she loved her last night totally like that's what it seems like and honestly you can like understand where mario's coming from too totally and that's the thing like they're these good or bad it's it's it's not good or bad people most

of the time it's just situations and rumors and drama yeah and and all those things uh next morning we get into the breakups dean and kayla are apparently the couple to remind us that paradise works. Love my friends, Dean and Kalen. Fascinating couple to choose from. I do know. I think Dean and Kalen were there like in his van driving down to Mexico. I think for his like, I was his brother's wedding or something.

And it was like, Hey, we're here. And I think they just kind of had them come. That's so funny. That's what it is. Like, Hey,

we're already here. Might as well just pop on. No, literally that literally. I love that. The fact that the van just like is like hey we're already here might as well just pop on no literally that literally i love that the fact that the van just like hey we're already here and the fact that you have been to the beach near the beach for a week we were there like a week later yeah from my cousin's wedding anywho kind of fascinating because like if you watch dean and kaylin season they didn't go to the fantasy suite dean like left broke up with her came back was like hey do you want to get out of here they left together since then they've had nothing but

an untraditional relationship which i think is great and and yet they here are dean and kaylin are the ones hyping up the kind of traditions of the show yes and dean couldn't be a more untraditional guy and it could have been a more uncomfortable so much that like in the past couple months you've seen dean like you know dean loves to say like dean love and i as a friend i love him because he loves he really loves to challenge the status quo he loves to even say shit just to let it float because it's dean dean has said recently he's just like caitlin and i don't say the words i love you now i don't know if that's just like a dean thing and caitlin's like yeah we don't say it but dean's here like saying like we've never been more in love and i could and it definitely felt like they were like reading a teleprompter but there's no teleprompter so weird it was so poorly rehearsed it was literally like they were

staring into a void and like not as if they weren't talking to people it felt like a state fair presentation be like the great state of new york also known at like it was very like monotoned and it wasn't but and also like maybe like the people that they were talking to like the contestants weren't like giving the kind of energy and so it was just like a not a flow and there wasn't like a you know easy kind of situation but it did seem a little i feel like they're all in on it they were like hey we're just we're here we're making a tv show here just give us the script just we'll say our lines the cue card back there i don't know because it was very you know like for example when you're the bachelor the bachelorette when you come in and you give your like your speeches and you're like hey guys i had a great week and there's been highs

and lows and blah blah blah blah blah like what will happen is you will like you know talk with your producer and be like and the producer like well you know what do you want to say and the producer's there to help you because as the lead you're just going through so much there's a million things going with your in your head they might even say hey like these are some thoughts i thought maybe you might want to say what do you think it you you could have as much input as you want or as little like depending on like i for the most part was like i think i got it like just remind me a couple things yeah and i'd go out there and i would say something and it was just kind of like somewhat rehearsed but then i would just kind of ablib and other times i think other leads would

just be like just i'm so tired what do you want me to say and they would do a good job of saying that and everything in between and this had a very like this this is what they do. Like D-Lin and Kaelin, Dean and Kaelin D-Lin. D-Lin. That's their name. As opposed to Keen. D-Lin. You know, they have him in the lead. They're just like, what do you want me to say?

Yeah, what do you do? Very, very rehearsed. But whatever. I love them. After I was here last time, I watched your entire season. Oh, really? I did. I loved it.

Oh, wow. It was so good. The volleyball episode really haunts me. Oh, really? I did. I loved it. Oh, wow. It was so good. The volleyball episode really haunts me. Yeah, it hates me. It was so good. Yeah. I loved it. So many, so much drama.

You told me so much shit. But yeah, also Mari calls herself out for definitely being good for Mari. She's a fan of Paradise because she's like, what do you think happens? Mari's like, I'll tell you what, we're about to have these conversations and talk about whether we're going to good for Mari. She's a fan of paradise because she's like, what do you think happens? Mari is like, I'll tell you what we're about to do. We're about to have these conversations and talk about whether we're going to a fantasy suite. Yeah. And so we get the handful of of relationships that don't even require us to like sit through a breakup. But hey, we need three hours of this.

Yeah. We know what's going to happen. It's the equivalent of like if I went on like three hinge dates with someone and then I was like, we should talk about we're going to be able to make this work together. Not even three. Like two. One. Yeah. It's like really.

These are the early infancy of relationships. Why do we need to hear this Anna and James conversation? Like we know you're not going to the fancy suite. Of course. We know that. Yeah. But I feel bad because Anna, I feel like she did want it to happen.

And she had that line where she was like, I would just really like for one thing to go right. And I really, I get that. Like, you know, when you just need a win. Yes. I've really, I know Anna really screwed the pooch on that James and Susan. Yes, absolutely.

And we were hard on her for doing, you know, she did a shitty thing she did a real human shitty thing yeah but i feel like she's really humbled herself and she recognizes her mistake and i found myself definitely rooting for anna i was too and i didn't like her season when she was on mad james i was like oh my god i don't like her but then when she came back i feel like through the episodes i'm like like, oh, like I feel like I get, I feel like actions speak louder than words and like what she's doing to me presents a more changed, better version of her old self.

But nevertheless, I don't know why we had to listen to that. Yeah. No, don't know why either. All right. But the big question of all these breakupsups that was an absolute fake cry performance by thomas right that was all do you think there was not his eyes were dry there was no tears though nally and i watched it back and there wasn't and and and that part of mexico is incredibly human it's incredibly hot we saw saw Thomas sweating up a storm.

Right. And yet in this moment, he could not have been drier. I was literally thinking that. And honestly, I was trying to rationalize because I'm that type of person. I'm like, okay, maybe like, you know, the heat's drying up the tears before they fall. Like I'm literally thinking the stupidest things are obviously not possible. But I was thinking the same thing. I'm like, why is your voice cracking so heavily and nothing's happening?

I didn't get it. We've been talking about Thomas since Katie's season of, you know, he's been obviously the big part of conversation. He's hyperbolic. The response to him is hyperbolic. It's a fascinating case study. Here is this kind of adonis beautiful looking guy i think part of the reason why we're so critical of thomas is because he looks the way he does i think so too like i was like watching him be like trey trey and thomas are kind of the

same when abigail and noah broke up you had had Thomas for no reason whatsoever saying things like, she's just like the best person ever. And just it's so everything is always and ever in the most. And Trey would do stuff like that. But like Trey was like handsome gentleman, but not six, five and supermodel looking. Right. And I think we are just like shut the fuck up thomas because you're we don't you're too fine you like the sound of your own voice yes like you're 10 when trey's doing it we're just like oh what a nice guy color commentary yeah i don't know you know like trey's

cute and handsome and and and thomas is like this beautiful and i wonder if like our criticism of thomas because even i was just like shut the fuck up thomas you know well it's also because he says weird things though like i genuinely like catch him saying like even with the begging situation he was like i'm gonna put so much trust into you in this situation i'm trusting you here and it's like well like you have no other choice because like she's literally breaking up with you so i'm confused yeah no like what are you trust me girl and then he's like and then his i don't i don't want to take anything away because maybe those were but it just those are some dry eyes and it seemed like he was really trying to like cry but it comes across like force but he couldn't do it because i don't think thomas is an idiot i

don't think he's dumb you know what i'm saying i don't think he is an idiot. I don't think he's dumb. You know what I'm saying? I don't think he really thought... Also, here's the thing about this show. As Becca Kufrin would know, and I think everyone there kind of knows, like, they know, like, it is a TV show. Now, interestingly enough, they didn't have, like, daytime dates because maybe it's because

they've already had enough and like you know wells canceling the cocktail party has really nothing to do other than the fact that like hey we got enough you know we have so much footage we're good we gotta i also love how what did thomas said or someone said it was just like you know obviously the main couples the strong couples the they go the strong couples they're good they they've been hanging out the whole time uh-huh but the other strong couples the other which are also also known as not strong couples haven't had the time to talk as if they haven't been just sitting on a fucking beach the entire time the entire time

having every opportunity to say whatever they want maybe did you think the one cocktail party was gonna the end all be all like I'm confused like what

right and it's not you have all that time and it's not like the like bachelor or bachelorette where it's like you're making it to the next week

and the next week it's like this is the last week like what does a rose matter at this point? Yeah, it was. Forget the rose. They're going to pursue each other outside of it. Exactly. Literally forget the rose.

Yeah. So I guess what I'm saying when it came to the Thomas and Becca thing, everyone kind of knows who's sticking around and who's going. So it kind of seemed like a really bad performance on the part of Thomas and Becca. And in fact, I'm pretty sure those two are still talking. Yeah. Didn't it show them at the end as like having reconciled?

Like and they're hanging out. It was like a weird like. It was like that TikTok trend, you know, where it was like. I loved those ending things, by the way. Like they were like everything to me. They were making me literally laugh. Yeah. It's like at the end of a movie.

Like, you know what they do to them? Brendan and Piper in hiding, laying low. I was like, what? They literally make it sound like an escaped mob boss. Yes. No, literally. I loved those ending things. They were making me die.

Do you do that things? No. Are we talking about TikTok? No. No, it's like at the end of the show, they did, like, a trailer. Oh, I didn't watch. Oh, I missed that. Okay, so they did a trailer thing at the end. should i re-watch it yeah should i watch it you

have to watch it so yeah all the more reason why i feel like the thomas and becca breakup was just a really bad performance as we found out at the end of the episode with the montage and the update of all the relationships they're together and they they conveniently found each other are in love thriving thriving uh-huh and uh i don't even necessarily fault thomas and becca because that's the part where they're they're kind of like you have to break up and we need a breakup so give us a breakup would, though? Well, what I'm saying is it's a TV show. They have a certain number of crews. They have a certain number of people to film these three. Right.

Have they ever had four fantasy suite dates in a paradise? They maybe have, but it's usually three, if not always. So do the math, so to speak. Are they just getting lucky that it is only three couples that are in love? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. And I think Becca and Thomas themselves, both as people, I think like to be very like prestige,

the way they go about things. So they probably don't want to be like a D-list couple in terms of like, you know, just in terms of like there's couples with clearly stronger connections. Right. And so it's not really their style. Also, here's my guess. Here's my guess is that they weren't willing to get engaged. One.

I think Thomas would have been willing to get engaged. I think Thomas would have done fucking anything. Thomas is like, I brought a ring day one. All my person. And it's a match. I didn't even think I didn't even realize this. But like Becca kufrin for all like the shit various members get on the show including myself but this would have been

becca's third engagement i've only been engaged once from this show i mean i know i mean actual engage i mean like saying yes yeah and so this would have been you know and becca got screwed over by ari and then she got engaged to garrett as a bachelorette but if she were to get engaged this would have been her third actual engagement from the show and no one wanted that for Becca right I don't think Becca wanted that for herself so because she's not getting engaged the show is rewarding the couples that are and they knew we're going to reward like we're going to focus on the couples who are going to get engaged they have the benefit of hindsight they know how it plays out when they choose to edit it the way it does and focus on the certain relationships yeah they probably knew this

going in so when you wonder like why we literally saw nothing of we saw no thomas and uh and becca i mean all of a sudden they're breaking up and thomas is crying and we barely saw them like at all i think it has everything to do with the fact that they weren't going to get engaged and it was like you're not going to engage and we don't really need you to like leave the you can always get back together but it is that they the show wants to make this about engagement whether you agree with it or not i i have a question for the audience do we care no i'm just a serious question like for the i don't care but i think i wonder for the people listening do you care that are you more invested with these i guess that's the question are you more invested with these? I guess that's the question. Are you more invested with these couples because they got engaged than if they didn't? Like if Joe and Serena once again, pull lever,

just like, Hey, I really like you and I love you. And like, let's keep dating. Would you care less? That's a good question. I feel like, I think that the idea of an engagement is much, there's like something about it that almost gives it more of a permanence to it. And it's like, you're excited about like a couple that you love getting engaged because it means it's more genuine like it comes across that way like that's what it comes across like it's like oh well if you're getting engaged that means you're truly in love you know that's like kind of like society's picture that it's painted for you for so long that it's like oh if you're getting engaged you're really in love but we spend so much time talking about how it's clearly the bullshit right how there's

a lot of broken off engagements in bachelor world because the engagement is more is like there's just a lower barrier to like entry for engagement on the show well and that's what i've said in the past like as someone who's been on the bachelorette and the bachelor in paradise and i understand on bachelor world you're if you're one of 30 or 25 you're fighting against so many people for one person and if you're the lead you still really only like usually one and so you're trying to get through and not and be as so but as empathetic and kind as possible so by the time you get to the end you really feel like you've gone to battle for this so like i and and there's a clear pressure from the audience like it's it's less now but historically when the bachelor didn't

get engaged the audience hated him so there was an internal pressure. So with Paradise, that doesn't happen. That's never been the case. No one's like shaming anyone for choosing not to get engaged. So it just seems a little more showy to me when the couples are like, fuck it, let's just get engaged. Let's just see what happens it doesn't it feels less sincere yeah totally because I think on The Bachelor or Bachelorette the expectation

is like you need a really good reason to not get engaged but it's not like that on Paradise it's not no but they're it's sort of like they are like oh I'm gonna use any reason any excuse I have to get engaged yeah and if you're Serena you didn't have to like fend off 29 other women who are all falling in love with Joe and you you know like you didn't have to deal with all watching these women go on dates with the guy you were falling in love with and

feeling like I like that's how the bachelor and bachelorette work is that you're sitting there being like there is no way these people feel the way I do and you're constantly have the benefit of comparison even though that's not necessarily a positive thing. But in that world, that's how your feelings start feeling so like real and out of control. And that's why you get to the end and you're just like, I have been through so much with this. Literal war. And not literal war.

We don't want to compare it to literal war. You're right. It feels like a battlefield in a way. But yes, that's how it feels. And here. I feel like that was not a date. That's not what I mean. I'm just trying to help you out.

You're right. You're totally right. Sensitive times. And I don't need you. People getting mad at you. Be respectful to the veteran community. But yes. And so it's kind of like i'm just curious does the for

from a bachelor in paradise audience do we care maybe and i you made it sound like maybe you do or subconsciously i think subconsciously i do i think there's like something in the subconscious that i think i do care like i feel like it almost gives it more of a permanence to it because you like you want it you want them to succeed and you feel like there's levels to it. And it's like, okay, well engagement, marriage. And like, there's like this like thing in society that's like places like, well, if you're truly happy, you would get married.

Right. And so I think that naturally you kind of want the progression to happen for them. It's also like, I feel like there's right now with like hookup culture being really big, there's so few conversations and communication that is like required of you. But it feels like there is a sort of when you're disclosing personal history, like engagement is one of the things you kind of have to tell someone.

Like it's a big deal if you're dating someone and then you find out later on like, oh yeah, by the way, I called off an engagement. Like I feel like there's something about getting engaged that like crosses that bar where it's like kind of then for the rest of your life, a sort of thing you are societally sort of instructed to disclose to people that's that's kind of my point and as someone who's been engaged on the show and like i didn't get engaged to

caitlin or andy but like obviously you know there's perceptions of how that all went down i did not feel like i needed to disclose that for people who like maybe who weren't big fans of the show i was like yeah it was whatever and so but nevertheless you're right and so i'm just wondering like like joe i was is i know they're the king and queen of paradise and the prompt but joe getting engaged kind of surprised me really from from like real life yes from like joe having been in this role before having a real relationship with kendall like he didn't get engaged to kendall and yet kendall will be someone that joe thinks of as a legitimate ex-girlfriend who we might have met in the crazy atmosphere.

But we had this true. I truly love this person. I chose to be with her because I wanted to be with her, not because we were afraid of what people are expectations. I didn't get engaged to Kendall. And now he comes back. And as someone who's been in it before joe is less warped i feel like you know the yeah the the bubble has less of an impact on people who are doing it again and so joe's decision to get engaged even though like they are really cute together like when joe and serena like you can

see a real like yeah a real connection a real connection like a real excitement from joe and i'm really happy for joe and i really like but like he still was like i'm gonna i'm i don't know if it's gonna work out but like i'm gonna i'm gonna put this engagement on my resume my permanent record it's really what it is and and I'm gonna hope it works out even though like I've been dating this girl for three weeks and we haven't like you know people like well at like I mean I'm curious like what you who do you think's gonna of the three engaged couples who do you think is gonna make it like do you think is going to, of the three engaged couples, who do you think is going to make it? Like, do you have an opinion? I feel like Serena and Joe are going to make it.

And I feel like Riley and Marissa are going to make it. What are you basing this on? Honestly, just like from their interactions in the show. I think that when it comes to like the way they look at each other, the way they feel about each other, the way they interact. I think it's like a combination of all those different things. And I think that when you see them being open with each other, the way they feel about each other, the way they interact. I think it's like a combination of all those different things. And I think that when you see them being open with each other,

you feel like, okay, got it. So if they're open here and they're making sure they get all like crossing the T's and dotting the I's, that in real life, it's going to hopefully work like that too because look how authentic they're being here. So I think that's kind of what makes it,

me think that they're going to make it more. It's also when you talk about like adversity like how kenny and mario like we've overcome such adversity i think an actual example of adversity is like when riley was really disappointed by his friend's behaviors like i think that's an example of like actually emotionally draining an emotionally draining situation and so for marissa to like be that be there see how he handled that and support him through that i think is like an example of something that feels applicable to like be that be there see how he handled that and support him through that i think is like an example of something that feels applicable to like real world relationship yeah fodder it'll be interesting the real answer is if if they will make it is it has nothing to do with their interactions

on the beach that's the real answer yeah and i don't have the answer of if they will or won't but i can tell you riley and Marissa's ability to make this work. Mari and Kenny's ability to make this work and Joe and Serena's ability to make this work has everything to do with their interactions after the show. Right. We don't know what was, what it was like for Mari to watch this back and watch Kenny and Demi and Kenny and Tia. And, and and and i'm sure kenny might

have been like hey this happened he could have been but like as somebody's been the show and watching it back that can create drama and conflict and so it will be the ability of those six people to actively decide to hey what we do know is we really like each other that's real and everything that happened on the beach what we should do is just all we should take from that is that there's something here and we should now start over and not anything that might trigger us from the show, anything that might frustrate us. We should completely throw in the trash and start over and turn off Instagram comments and not care what whether people like us or not. You know, Mari and Kenny shouldn't care that, you know, Joe and Serena are like the king and queen couple of, you know what I'm saying? Like totally little shit like that.

And it sounds trivial, but that is the shit that like a lot of people will get sucked up into. So it really will depend. It will depend on how much these people are willing to make one another a priority in the real world. Like, is Serena going to move? Is Joe going to move? Is Riley and Marissa going to like is serena gonna move is joe gonna move is riley and marissa gonna like i don't where do they live things like that all those things have will have to do with whether they work out and nothing that happened and no conversations that happen on the beach will have like an actual determination of whether they work out interesting

in the real life in real life and i guess guess on the topic of Joe and Serena, what did you make of the last Kendall hurrah? I liked it. I liked that. I liked it for Kendall. I liked it for Joe. Interestingly enough, this is one of those moments where I'm really honestly,

you know what I'm curious about? I'm wondering what Kendall thinks of it, because it was my understanding that she was asked to come down and do this. There was a lot of resistance from Kendall of whether she wanted even to bother. It was a lot like, I don't want to get between these two. I don't want to like if Joe's going to get engaged to Serena, I don't want to. I don't want to be a part of it. I just like. I don't want to be a part of it.

I just like, eh. And my understanding is that things were said and maybe she might have been led to believe that they weren't going to get engaged. And I think Kendall might have been frustrated after she went and had this conversation with Joe. And I feel like I've heard Kendall might have been frustrated for these past several months of wishing she didn't go down there. And yet watching it back, I thought it was a really great moment for the both of them.

I think it was the show trying to put a nice clean like closure closure on this. I think Kendall looked much better leaving that beach there than she did two weeks ago. Absolutely. I love that for them. It was, I thought everything Kendall said was sincere and from the heart. And it was a nice, like she seemed gracious and happy for Joe. And it seemed like a healthy conversation. And I really quite liked it.

And I wonder if Kendall will watch that back and say, I've been mad at the producers for for four months but thanks yeah thanks for the closure i'm really curious yeah no i agree i i thought it was great at first when she was walking i was like oh my god oh my god like i was nervous when i was watching her walk down i was like oh my god don't do it don't do it please i thought she was gonna be like i'm moving to chicago like i thought she was it please i thought she was gonna be like i'm moving to chicago like i thought she was gonna finally i thought she was gonna finally be like i thought about it and i'll move to chicago oh my god i would literally fucking scream like what a time what do you think joe would say he'd be like okay and i think joe had moved on i think so too i think if she

said it right i think when she was like hey butthead at the beginning i think if she'd said it then and there before joe had really developed relationship with Serena, like I think he would have considered like getting back together. I agree. I think you might be right. But I do think Joe and Serena really like each other. I think he is very excited about her. I really believed, you know, when Joe and Serena talk and he's just like i really saw it with you you see a genuine excitement it's really endearing like i i that's exactly how i feel this episode was a lot of like oh god these conversations are so silly and ridiculous and yet when kenny and mari and riley and marissa and joe and and uh serena would talk i'd be like fuck that's cute you know like yeah you know i agree like i really you feel like you see you feel genuine vibes from them yeah you know i just root for them yeah you were from i'm rooting

for them i mean it wasn't like is someone who's like dating someone who's younger than me i don't know if kenny and mari and and joe and serena really represented this community the way i hoped serena really represented this community the way i hoped the community of age of a large age gap because it was such a cliche of like kenny being like like i loved kenny was just like i've had some fun like i've i've lived like my life i have i've really enjoyed colored yeah i've lived my life and then you know like what is mari gonna say but like you know the i'm mature the most and maybe she very much is we don't know really mari's backstory and and but it was just like natalie and i watching it and we looked at each other and we're like not the spokesman we were looking for now Now we were expecting for the age gap.

I mean, because they have a large age gap, like specifically Laurie and Kenny. Yeah, 25 and 30. About the same age. And then Serena and Joe. 23 and 35. Yeah, so essentially pretty large. But whatever.

It is all fun and games. I couldn't help but wonder, is Kenny really in this or is kenny just like going through the motions when they walked into the fantasy suite and kenny goes oh this is like bigger than my apartment i couldn't help but wonder was kenny being like hey mari fyi i'm like i'm poor and broke and i'm not his way i'm not like i don't know i think maybe you want to think twice about like falling in love with me because i'm i i have a really shitty apartment and i and by the way like little seeds i've i've i've had a lot of sex and maybe you want to like reconsider falling

in love with me yeah i couldn't tell but i felt like maybe kenny was trying to get out of it but maybe not i'm like i think they're a little too far gone at that point if you're going into the fantasy suites and you're like hey my apartment's small i think you're like okay we're already we're already here we're already past that point you're like kenny kenny and mari are our key they love to say i don't know why but we do like we can't articulate any feelings but we're in love and joe and serena or serena loves to say just every day it's just better and better like yeah they don't really say why but they're like serena's line is how better it is each day and uh that's it's actually really cute seeing serena like in this episode specifically like kind of like crying her interviews like

just because she's so happy and i think that comes off so genuine i really think that she feels that that was a sweet moment it's so sweet it got me teared up like i got a little i got a little i got a little i felt it in the throat and serena like the i'm i'm just so happy because i didn't expect it that felt like a real nice moment yeah especially because serena has been like iron like trap like she left she left on matt James' season. She's been very controlled and measured. And she's kept her shit together in a very real way in a lot of scenarios where it's very hard

to keep your shit together. Good point that Serena on Matt James' season was top four. Yeah. She's hometown. So historically, you would understand why serena was be sucked in the bubble and just wait for matt james not to pick her and i think matt really liked her i think she had a shot i think she had a shot and she was like nah and and so yes she is

someone who's shown the ability to not get as easily sucked in. And yet, here she is with Joe. I do think there's something about Riley and Marissa that seems like more fairytale and more like the combination of, I don't know, there's a sincerity. The way they both are here to, I feel like they really complete each other in a way that we at least didn't get to see with the other couples. Well, what did we think of Riley's little psych out before the fantasy squeeze?

Whatever. I think he's just having fun. I do too. I think that he's literally just like shooting the shit with her so that she knows that like he's a jokester. Totally. And I think that's a cast personality is and i think we saw in that moment like how she she didn't like and marissa did not like freak out or anything but like you could see she was like spooked in a real way that i think was like further indicative of how they have this like rock solid connection that she was like gonna

be shaken up by it but she didn't immediately freak out like the second he said something yeah i mean if you're sucking his toe you know it's really real like it's real well i think what it speaks to is how intense that world is and how you can have the maris and the marissa's and i guess the serena's of the world be talking about engagement and simultaneously acknowledging just how fragile their relationship is like they're acknowledging they have very little to go on like because otherwise why would like serena to her credit like it didn't even flinch for serena like when joe joe kind of did the same thing i don't he was fucking with her a little bit yeah and she's like don't fuck with me and she was like whatever yeah she's

like okay it's like nah yeah but so yeah props to serena for that but like it that's an acknowledgement of them saying like you know that's that strongest couple bullshit they like they we're we're all laughing like what does that have anything to do with your relationship but because in reality they have such little to go on and yet the stakes are so high talking about an engagement that's why you see that juxtaposition um the aaron and james bromance the only thing i loved about it is that it was the kind of the first and only time the show pointed out that this is a fucking show. Yeah. You know, I loved it.

I loved it. Yeah. And also you look at like, I feel like all the people who are bachelor alumni, like the lasting relationships are the friendships made on the show. Like those are the ones that last for a lifetime. But it was the show through the edit, through the soundtrack, through everyone having a good time with it, a different soundtrack, different stakes, Tia not being in on it. Aaron could have looked like the biggest douchebag in the world.

And yet it was lovable and great. And everyone was just in on it yeah and it was like such a like an acknowledgement of how silly their relationship was because there was no relationship it was also no different than james and anna and yet the stakes were shown completely different and i love that the show for a split second was like yeah this is a silly tv show but on that this is reminding me TV show. But on that, this is reminding me that we haven't even talked about the fact ever that Aaron hooked up with Tia,

who James was pursuing, like his best friend was pursuing. And neither of them gave a shit. And neither of them gave a shit. And this is Aaron, Mr. Like loyalty. Mad about everyone for everything.

Yes. And then his literal best friend, like he, he hooks up with, he hooks up with his best friend. Made out. Yeah. Made then his literal best friend, like he hooks up with, he hooks up with his best friend. Made out. Made out. Kisses.

Exchanges a little smooch with his best friend's girl and it's like not a big deal at all. Yeah. I mean, James carved like a block of wood to make a landscape of New York and then,

and Aaron, Kissed her at at prom here's your at prom and yet they're not mad about it not a big deal they're leaving together and aaron almost like tried to like beat up ivan yeah for the chelsea situation doing literally the same thing but because they're bros i wonder if i really i really wonder if aaron i i hope for aaron this was like i hope he's able to look back have a good time and made a good friend acknowledge that like i was kind of petty a little immature and maybe this is a growth opportunity for him again i'm sure he's a nice guy he was very charming in that moment with james i really liked that he was having fun I liked I'll get your number

Like that was my favorite part Where he goes to Tia I'll just get your number later Because you know what The world goes on After we leave this beach Exactly There's more

And I love that Tia's like I fucking hate you And just like ran away It was so funny to me It was great I loved it I loved it I love that

We brought just a little bit Of like Calmness Yes To the storm That has been bachelor in paradise all season long. You know, and I'm always, I'm not,

I'm always here for a guy holding another guy walking down the beach. So totally. I was game. Gay. I was very there for it. Moving on. Nick's like, no comment.

Manny Thank you so much Of course For recapping this episode With me Please tell my audience About your new podcast Oh yeah

I have a podcast now too It's called Full Coverage F-O-O-L Because me and my best friend We just You know we just Kind of shoot the shit We hang out And I feel like I genuinely feel like I'm less nervous This time than last time f-o-o-l because me with me my best friend we just you know we just kind of shoot the shit we hang

out and i feel like i genuinely feel like i'm less nervous this time than last time because i have a podcast now i thought you're great thank you we'll have to have you back uh for another recap absolutely i am i love a good recap i really do thank you guys for listening uh be sure to check out manny's podcast be sure to keep listening because we have a truly fantastic episode coming up next. The wonderful Emily DiDonato is with us talking about

all things from motherhood and how she met her husband, skin care, the modeling industry, stereotypes. Just a really wonderful episode very introspective person Emily is and surely just

just a charming lovely human and I think you'll really enjoy that episode so keep listening don't forget to send your questions at asknickatcastme.com and if there's nothing else well just keep listening.