The Viall Files - E338 Bachelorette Recap With Ali Barthwell

Episode Date: November 3, 2021

We're breaking down all the Bachelorette drama with Ali Barthwell, comedian and staff writer for Last Week Tonight with John Oliver and Vulture! On this episode we dive into how Michelle feels like a Bachelorette really in control of the situation, a Top Gun date that ends in a wet disaster, and the liars of the Slam Poetry date. We also talk about who the next villain will be after the rose ceremony, the low bar of standards when dating straight men, the explosive toxicity, and issuing an official apology to Rodney regarding the blind apple taste test.  “They think they’re playing a competition of airtime versus actually winning the Bachelorette.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  For merch please visit http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: BetterHelp: Go to http://www.betterhelp.com/ViallFiles and unload the stress. Rothy’s: Head to http://www.rothys.com/VIALL to find your new favorites today! RumHaven: Discover more recipes that will help you Sip into Paradise at http://www.RumHaven.com ZocDoc: Go to http://www.Zocdoc.com/VIALL and download the Zocdoc app to sign-up for FREE and book a top-rated doctor. Many are available as soon as today. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @wtflanksteak See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. You are the greatest asset. It's time you start investing in that. Visit betterhelp.com slash V-I-A-L-L-F-I-L-E-S. That's betterhelp.com slash Viaphiles and take care of you. Enjoy the great taste of Rum Haven. It's perfect for mixing to create cocktails or for enjoying on its own. It's made with real coconut water and no artificial flavors. Anytime you want to mix it up and taste the tropics, enjoy some Rum Haven. Your friends will love you for it and you will love the great taste. Easy to mix or easy to enjoy on its own, Rum Haven. Discover more recipes that will help you sip into paradise at rumhaven.com. What's going on, everybody?

Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Bachelorette Recap Edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by Allie and Amanda. And we have Allie Barthwell back in studio with... Well, not technically in studio. She's from Chicago. But we all know how much we all loved recapping with Allie last time. And I don't think I've ever... We've had some very wonderful guests on, which people immediately will reach out and say, have them back. But I think Allie might have won the have them back award. And we weren't shocked because we really enjoyed it when we had her on the first time. So back by very popular demand, Allie. Allie, welcome back.

What's going on, everybody? Thanks for having me back. It's great to have you. Before we get into the recap just a couple uh housekeeping notes uh keep listening after this episode if you're listening and short of you listening right after tuesday night uh the hysterical wonderful fibula also known as connor wood is with us uh who you might recognize him on tiktok and and just have a fun life conversation, an easy listen. You won't want to miss that. Don't forget to send in your questions at asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K for Ask Nick episodes. If you find yourself in a struggling situation, relationship, and you have exhausted your friends, give us a try. We'll listen and you might find some relatable stories to help through your

problems. All right, let's get to the recap. Great. Allie, just want to check in with you. We're on episode three. What are your thoughts so far? Obviously, we're huge fans of Michelle on this side of the room. I'm assuming you are as well. But just give us your kind of season recap and bring us up to speed where you're at. I mean, it's amazing to watch Michelle because you really get the sense that her classroom management techniques are coming in handy on this season.

She's always setting an expectation, setting a time limit for that expectation and then letting you know what will happen if you don't follow through. So I think she's very prepared to be the Bachelorette due to her life experience dealing with 10 year olds. And I think the group of guys like they're surprisingly turning out to be very sweet. I think there's a few bad eggs, but I think they get they get what's coming to them this episode. So I'm kind of surprised they're burning through story this fast.

I was thinking the same thing. It's always like when one, what seems to be nice, good villain, juicy villain leaves, you're always like, who's next? Who amongst this group? And you all see they're all happy he goes home. I'm like, well, one of you is about to like have a light shined right on them. And I'm just trying to figure out who. It's a good point that you mentioned.

Is Michelle the first lead who is a teacher? I mean. That I can think of off the top of my head. Certainly recently, right? Like in the past decade. Yeah. And she's not, you know, sometimes I sort of attribute it to like bachelorettes being off of my head. Certainly recently, right? Like in the past decade. Yeah. And I, and she's not,

you know, sometimes I sort of attribute it to like bachelorettes being older and like having a bit more life experience, but I don't even think she's in sort of the older category. She's like a late twenties. Yeah. Yeah. But I think she really seems to have taken the time to figure herself out, to be able to handle a group of people.

And, and she seems very reflective on all of these dates and it's also because it seems like she is initiating a lot of the conversations she also initiates a lot of the kisses so like she's very very like straightforward and goes after what she wants so it's just interesting to see a bachelorette that seems really in control um compared to some of these other seasons where you've seen the bachelorette get bowled over by the guys in the house or seem really unsure of herself. Michelle really seems to be in control of herself and her own emotions, which I imagine as a fifth grade teacher, you have to be.

Yeah. Well, we've often used the comparison on the show that as a product of the very intense environment that people in that world will resort to their high school selves. The environment turns very petty, very territorial. And so as you were talking, I'm thinking we should have more teachers because I think it must serve her well. And I don't want to even take anything away from Michelle as the person, the adult who, like you said, I've really enjoyed her willingness to talk about her experiences. She seems to handle each situation or every challenging situation with kind of like this

poise and you can see her thinking through it. She's not reactive. I think other bachelorettes and other bachelors too, again, they don't know what they're getting themselves into as leads. Even if they've been on the other side, they're thinking, oh, I've done this before. But being the lead is very challenging and very different and they're often kind of like what the fuck is going on and so that's why i think in in past seasons you've seen drama happen and then the the lead or bachelorette react where michelle seems to be really thoughtful with her approach. And like in past seasons,

again, we've get this thing where the bachelorette will yell at the group, you know, like something will happen and be like, if you don't love me, there's the door, you know, they're always pointing out the door, you know? And Michelle, when she addresses the group, she's at least attempting

and the men aren't necessarily always taking the group, she's at least attempting and the men aren't necessarily always taking the opportunity, but she's attempting to strike up conversations. She talks to the group and she gives space for the group to talk back. And that usually doesn't happen. Usually it's just the bat shred just being like, there's the door. and the guys are always like, what the fuck, you know? And I like watching her. I think about, so I was a director and a teacher doing sketch and improv in Chicago. And whenever you would learn about directing and sketch directing, when she got to sort of the level that I was at, the conversation was like, yeah, part of your job is developing the material and writing the sketches and doing the running order. But a huge chunk of your time is just sitting there and trying to figure out why

is this one actor acting up in rehearsal? And you have to think and be like, okay, they don't like the material in the running order and their pattern is to do this. And they have a feud with this person. And as a teacher, it's the same thing. You're looking at a student and being like, what's going on with this student? Why are they acting like this? How can, what can I give them so that they will in return behave the way I need them to or that I would prefer them to?

So it's really, it's a, you learn all these, you know, like I'm surprised she hasn't thrown up like a quiet coyote, just like, all right, everybody eyes up here. But it's really about like, when you're, when you're a teacher, but when you're, when you're a teacher, when you're in any kind of leadership position, you learn how to manage people as a result, but manage people from wanting their best, which I think is a different kind of management style than,

you know, if you were like the CEO of something like, sure, you want your best, but with those people, you can just fire them. Like you can't fire a 10 year old that's failing your math class. You have to figure out what's going on with this person. And so I think the best of teachers, the best of directors, the best of managers do that. And I think we're seeing in Michelle that she's in that category. Like I would love to have watching her. I'm like, I would love to have her as a teacher because you can tell she really cares about people. Yeah. I mean, she, she kind of leads with like, she, you can tell she understands empathy and leads with empathy to your point.'s you know like and i come from a sales background back in the day and it's always like you'd always find one or two managers in sales

right the that you're always promoting good sales people and oftentimes a good salesperson would suck as a manager because they're like everyone needs to be like me and sell like me and they get into a leadership role something something bad happens. And they're just like, why aren't you doing it the way I want you to do it or the way I did it? And the good sales managers would say, I got six people on my team. They all have different personalities. I need to understand how they operate, how they work. And again, be empathetic. And yes, Michelle is really good at doing that. And it's fun to watch. Yeah.

And I mean, she also loves a metallic with a deep slit on a gown. She loves having a leg out. She is there. She looks good and is there to look good. And it is spectacular. The fashion game has taken a huge step up this season. Yes, you can tell they were like, we got budget.

Let's throw some budget at this. Yeah. Carrie, the stylist, really took a beating last season. He's here to redeem himself and Michelle is his muse. Yeah. The episode starts off, well, we just kind of like blow over the Jamie thing. They're like, like all right we're gonna get to this later which is not necessarily always a great sign that there's gonna be a ton

of drama they're like well we can't get to this early on so we need to figure out a way to to shelving like she she's not gonna see him right away so we have to just like hold on to it and no one it's interesting that no one spoke up when she opened the floor to be like, we don't know what you're talking about. And I wonder if there's like a backlash moment

from watching last season of like the guys ran the house and we don't want to do that or whatever it is. But on this group of guys, they're a little more like in the cut waiting and not wanting to start trouble. It's interesting.

I, I thank you for bringing that up because I'm, you know, Martin specifically and Martin had a moment. He had a, Martin had a connection with Michelle. I think Martin is a legitimate contender in terms of, I don't know if he's going to win, but I think he's someone Michelle is interested in. You saw

a connection there. He's got some game. And Jamie told Martin that story. Yes. He told them the very specific story that Michelle then relayed to the group. a very specific story that Michelle then relayed to the group. So while Michelle was talking, Martin knew who it was, right? And we can sit here and debate whether it was Martin's role, but he definitely, in my opinion, he should have done something with that information.

And he chose to just sit back. It was kind of like you're across the street getting a Starbucks and then you see like a bank robber walk into a bank. You're just like, well, you know, I'm not there. And you just watch it unfold, you know, and do we not criticize Martin for just kind of pretending he wasn't in that conversation? And I think there's a way to do it if you don't want to sell Jamie out, because I can understand being like, I don't, you know, I don't want to spend my time talking about other people. That sort of is other guys take on it. But to be like the story that you told us, none of us else knew what that was. told us, none of us else knew what that was. So I would ask whoever said it, where they heard it,

because that would be a good way to deflect it and be like, we're not part of this, but not sell anybody out and be like, you have the empower her. But I mean, at the end of, at the end of, in my opinion, at the end of last episode, someone should have said, when she said we're going to open the floor for questions, we don't have questions because we don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. And have the rest of the guys chime in and be like, I agree, I agree. We don't know what you're talking

about. Because I think there could be, you know, I don't think they identified that she knew Joe like very personally. Because even if you watch them together, I don't think they identified that she knew Joe like very personally. Cause even if you watch them together, it doesn't look like it's an overwhelming connection, but it's just like, oh, they're both from Minnesota. They both play basketball. Maybe they knew each other in the same, because it's a, I imagine the number of people that play like, like high school level, top of their game basketball in Minnesota is a small number.

Well, yeah. In that world, you have a bunch of strangers and you're looking for any type of connection. Again, it's like being a kid and going to summer cap and trying to be like, you're nervous. You're afraid of not knowing anyone. You're literally afraid of making friends. This is an actual thought people go in. Michelle has the same. When I was the bachelor and Rachel Lindsay's like, I went to Marquette for college, which is in Milwaukee. We bonded over that. Like I didn't even go to Marquette, but like, you know, I was in Milwaukee. So like there was an immediate connection and you make over small things, you, you relate and connect. And so like, yeah, I get Martin doesn't want to rat anyone out.

But when Michelle says, I want to have a conversation, I'm fine if Martin like sits back and sees what, because like all the guys were very confused. So I could see Martin wanting to give Jamie an opportunity to say something, but then he doesn't. And Martin could have been like in that moment, be like, yo, like, hey, I don't want to call you out, Martin. But like Jamie, like, you know what she's talking about. And that would have been the kind of an aggressive approach. But then there was that whole like sequence of we watched Jamie pretend and not know. And I would have, why didn't Martin walk up to Jamie and be like, dude, so I know you're the one. So like, why don't you be walking around being like, wow,

that information is new to me as well. I think, I think this group of guys, they all thought they were playing a fair game and it seems like they all tend to get along. They tend to be pretty laid back as a people, as like a group of people. And then they realized,

Oh, to be pretty laid back as a people, as like a group of people. And then they realized, oh, someone's not playing fair and they don't know how to deal with that. Yeah. And so I think it was more a function of like, when you realize, oh, we're not all playing fair right now, rather than I'm not going to say anything because I think it, you know, I don't want to write whatever. I think they're they're just like oh I didn't know we all weren't playing fair I guess we have to deal with this now yeah and that's kind of how it always happens like I always have this distinct

memory on any season we were all like what a great group of guys like wow they didn't cast a villain this season and you're just like and I remember looking at one of the producers and he had a just wait kind of look on his face like just give it some like, and I remember looking at one of the producers and he had a, just wait, kind of look on his face. Like, just give it some time.

Right. And I think that. Someone ominously checked off a clipboard of like, we're getting close. Yeah. And so like, there's this level of like, innocence to your point. I think this happens kind of every season early on. There's this like, oh, we're just like, what a good group of guys. And we're just all respectful kings.

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I've never seen Top Gun. I'm aware it's part of the white canon I've not partaken in watching the film I like that they had like actual people from the movie sometimes it's just like a loose tie in like a thematic

tie in and clearly Michelle's type is also guy who would be a boyfriend on Insecure so I really liked that Jay Ellis was there Literally Michelle's type is also a guy who would be a boyfriend on Insecure. So I really liked that Jay Ellis was there being like, man, this is what you're aspiring to. I've met Jay and I've met Glenn before. So that was both.

I don't know them very well, but very, very nice guys. I was surprised to see them on The Bachelorette. I wonder if they... I don't think Jay does, but I feel like Glenn might watch The Bachelorette. I wonder if they... I don't think Jay does, but I feel like Glenn might watch The Bachelorette. I feel like he might. Yeah, and you can tell they also were like, we got the budget, bringing the stars, bringing big planes,

we're putting costumes on again, let's go. Also, I just want to, as we early on, I thought Will was going, I thought Will went home. There's a lot of guys. Will's obviously not home. I'm glad Will, like Will was a star of this episode. Also, apologies to Canada. Yes, you invented basketball. Sorry. I made a comment last week how like, cause Nate missed a, like a wide open layup. And I was like, well, he's from Canada. Maybe he plays hockey. I don't know. And we have a strong Canadian audience. And half of them let me know that Canada invented basketball. They really stapled that peach basket to the big stick out in the ice fishing hole. Okay, I get it.

I get it, Canada. Yeah. So anyway, my bad, Canada. You get basketball. Like, what would you have... I mean, obviously, the biggest part of the group date was the spinning G-Force thing. Yes.

I would have been terrified. I want to know why they all didn't get nicknames. I want everyone's nickname and that to be their call sign for the rest of the season. I was like, this is so funny. They clearly gave them all and they just like... We went through it uh will will was little willy will willy martin was frosty because of his tips yeah and then

peter was dough boy and then they just moved on and olu was like there's no way peter is a dough boy this is not this is not what's happening I love how we got a little like context into what that, that means. And he was just like, nah, yeah, Peter is soft. He is.

I mean, he's in the, in a dough boy, not in the way Olaf was mentioning. He is soft in every way you could be soft. Peter looks on the verge of tears in every moment in that way of like the kid who gets picked on at school

is like walks into the building and starts feeling like they're going to cry. He looks like his Pokemon cards just got stolen. Well, now you almost make me feel bad for Peter because like I could see a world where Peter was picked on most of his life

and he he's a bad shit talker but his willingness to shit talk I think is kind of like his weapon of choice and how he stands up for himself he knows he can't fight someone at some point in his life told him

they were like listen son they're gonna keep coming after you unless you fight back and he took that advice a little too far. Yes. You wish you were a pizza boy, said no one ever. Like he'll just say things. And I think he just confuses people because it's not like actually like a criticism.

But you're like, what? It's not intimidating. He's like, no. Oh, okay. I mean, no, not since I was 14. What are your thoughts? We've been, and I'm going to continue to be, cause we haven't had any reason. Cause Clayton's big, I thought this was going to be Clayton's big episode. We all, we all know he's the next bachelor. And so it's kind of like, all right, ABC, tell us why, show us why. Never before have they gone into a season with someone who's part of the cast knowing that they're filming.

They have ideas. They might have their favorites, but they'll always... They've had their favorites going into season and be like, we think this is our bachelor, but what if America doesn't like them? And sometimes they've changed their mind. But Clayton, they're all in. They're ready. Yeah. And so I'm still waiting for...

And Clayton's big moment was when they had the gladiator fight. And of course... The pro football player. The pro football player comes out. And he posted up and took those guys down. He didn't move an inch. It was incredible. I liked him actually at the after party of the

group date and I can see sort of what his thing is. He's very goofy, a little self-deprecating. He's the gentle giant, kind of. But I thought he was going to get a one-on-one date in this episode because like narratively that makes sense.

Yeah. And for them to be like, we really like this guy. You should take him on a one-on-one date. So I thought he was going to get a one-on-one date and then we'd get like his full story. But from what I've seen of him, he seems fine.

Fine. And he goes in the long tradition of The Bachelors being less interesting than The Bachelorettes, present company excluded. But he just sort of I think sometimes they just pick he's inoffensive, he's tall,

he has a square head, let's do it. He remembers people's names he's very polite you know yes but I was with the Peter and the jacket thing I and not and I don't want to just pick on Clayton here because I wish

anyone had said something I wish anyone would have been like more than just like not cool man I wish that would have been like that was a bitch move, dude. Like, yeah. Like,

why would you do that? Like, I just, I really will. And then I'm like, I couldn't be a bigger Nate fan. And like, but when,

when, when Peter and Will were bickering, I wanted Nate. And I think he has it in him because he always like says the right thing. And like these difficult times. And I wish Nate would have been like, guys, can you do me a favor? Can you both just shut the fuck up like i wish it would have been such an awesome like moment i kept looking like nate was giving the most side eye through this

entire thing and i kept like pausing my tv and you would just see nate in the background like peeking up over clayton's giant shoulders being like, if y'all two don't shut up, we go get sent home on this date. Yeah. Please be quiet. Yeah. It's like everybody else is on The Bachelorette

and he's on The Office. Like the way he's making eye contact with the camera being like, are you serious? Yeah, totally. But yeah, I really, I really, it would have been a great moment if Clayton would have leaned in a little bit harder when Peter, I mean, Peter's got, I guess, at least he's unafraid as maybe a smaller guy was

who's been picked on. The giant who's like, yo, man, nah, cool. And Peter's like, mind your own business. I was like, okay, Peter. When he went, are you dating me? Are you dating Michelle? It's like, one, that doesn't make sense. Doesn't even make sense. Two, we're all dating Michelle. So we should tell her what's going on. I felt really, really bad for Will. I felt really bad. You could tell he was like going into the,

we kind of skipped over, like going into the G-Force thing. He was like, I know I have motion sickness. I pack. He's like, I have my medicine back at the hotel i love someone that's like i brought my medicine on my vacation like after my own heart and he got in there and started speaking spanish like that's great very very cute and peter immediately was like he copied me he said the exact same thing that i said and like i don't speak italian or spanish but i speak french which is like in the middle and i was like they're not saying the same

thing and you know you can only get so far with like super romantic language anyway like it's all the same thing platitudes yeah and i think will got it when mich said, do you need a puke bucket? And he said, no, I need you. Perfect. That is such a smooth, good line. When he was like, you could tell completely out of it, like no color in his face. And it's like, that was what did it. But I think Peter can't see that, that it's not like who can do the biggest bluster. It's who can actually like extend this thing to Michelle.

In the moment too, yeah. In the moment. And I think it's a common thing for the guys on The Bachelorette. They think they're winning a competition of like airtime rather than the actual Bachelorette. Yes. And I think Jamie is a similar kind of vibe,

like what he is talking about this episode when he's like, I'm better than all these other people. Why can't she just see that? Why isn't she picking up on that? And it's like, you're not winning a competition against the other people.

You're winning a competition for her affection. Yes. And so I think it was like seeing the same like vibe in just different levels of like put together-ness. And Peter just isn't a put together person for all his, I'm a special pizza man. Has this ever happened to you? You need to see a doctor. You search and find one that looks good. You wait on hold and book an appointment. You rearrange your schedule and then you finally go and you find out that this doctor doesn't even

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Yeah, I mean, you said it perfectly and you're right. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Yeah. I mean, you said it perfectly and you're right. It's always funny because when people go on that show, there's a handful of people who are just like, you know, open to the process for lack of a better phrase. And then there are people who just like, they can't, I don't know if they, they can't help or they watch the show too much. They're just hyper. You see them be so hyper aware of the cameras and they, they don't know how to disconnect from it's going to be on a show

versus like we're here because there's a lot of people who show up and yeah, you're aware it's, you're aware it's a show, but they're just like, it's very easy to lose yourself in that world. And that's what a lot of people do. And then they'll focus on the relationships. And there's just a handful of people who just never can like disengage from that. And you see that come out in their actions. And it's interesting also,

because I noticed it differently on The Bachelorette than on The Bachelor, because, and I even said last week in my recap, it's like, I never see that or they never show women on the bachelor being like the bachelor has to prove they're worthy of me. But we see men on the bachelorette say that all the time and they put it on screen for us.

And I think it's just sort of like a, get like a function of how dating works, you know, very stereotypically for like heterosexual couples. It's like the guy is the one with a lot of the like shut off power for what's going forward in the relationship. And I think when some men get on this thing where the power dynamics really flipped, they don't know how to handle that. And I think some of that is what's happening with Jamie.

And I think with Peter, I just think he's in a, he's just out of his comfort zone. He's not, he has maybe has a lot of anxiety around being compared to other people. Sure. And some of these other guys are just like, well,

I don't, I can't compare myself to anybody else. So I'm just going to keep marching forward. Like even someone like Rodney, who is upfront of just like, well, I can't compare myself to anybody else. So I'm just going to keep marching forward. Like even someone like Rodney, who is up front of being like, I was going to say, yeah, perfect. Sometimes I don't get, you know, I don't get that good comparison to people. But I know I just got to go forward and like go with my heart and be my true self. And someone's going to notice me.

And it's interesting because I see it so much more on The Bachelorette. This is a very particular way that men implode on this show of being like, The Bachelorette has to be worthy of me. When like, hey, buddy, that's not what's happening. That's not what's going on

in the game show. Like Drew Carey doesn't have to guess the price of anything. You, sir, have to guess the price of the things. And I think it's just a weird power imbalance that like men can't deal with or aren't used to dealing with. Yeah, that's a good point. Now, would you like to see... Because you say that and I've never

thought about that and that's a good observation, but would you like to see... Because I wouldn't mind seeing on The Bachelor a handful of women being like, I don't know if I like you, you know, to the bachelor. And I think it holds a different flavor when women say that because there's just, you know, having dated straight men, there's so much more nonsense to wade through that like the, like even Like even a okay woman is going to be pretty good. And like the most okay man is like a rock that you have to like dress up and roll to different occasions with your family. And so I think the expectation of like,

you know, what a woman has to bring to the table for a man to be satisfied versus what a man has to bring to the table for a woman to be satisfied. I think a woman on The Bachelor would be like, he needs to prove he's worthy of me. He looked, he made eye contact. I'm good. Like, because the bar is so low for straight men.

I remember I was talking to a friend once and I was like, oh, I can't find anybody. And he was like, well, what are you looking for? And I was like, just a guy who's nice and kind of cute and like has a job. And he went, girl, your standards are too high. And I was like, the standards are too high? So I think just sort of like what men demand of a partner versus what women have been forced to accept is very different. So I don't think women would be like,

he has to prove himself in this situation that I'm trying to win him as well. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a, it's a, yeah, I've never thought of it that way. And that's an interesting way to compare the differences between the two seasons. And yeah, you see, it's definitely different types of drama on the respective seasons. And I love how you, you brought out, brought up Rodney because, you know, props, a couple love how you brought up Rodney because a couple of things props to Rodney. I was critical last week of Rodney and his inability to identify Granny Smith.

So I did said blind taste test with apples and I immediately missed the Granny Smith. I was like, oh, this is missed Granny Smith. I was like, oh, this is a Granny Smith. And it was a pink lady. Granny Smith is like my apple. That's what I like to snack on, everything. I thought it's the same. And I hadn't had an apple in like a minute.

But a pink lady has a tartness that's when you're blindfolded because you're looking for the tart and the sour and turns out a pink lady also provides that. Well, also maybe the most tart pink lady in a bag and, you know. Maybe, but

I'm sorry, Rodney, for judging you and your blind, your five senses. But before we get to Rodney, there's one thing that has been on the group, the after party of the group date. Because Will says, this man is really pushing my buttons and he's like crying. Thank you. And I had been seeing that in the previews and I was like, what is this about?

Because that's just such a interesting way to be like, I'm very upset right now, but it's so like now seeing the context that it was tears. I'm like, Oh, well, Oh no. Like it really is.

What Peter did was really, really mean, like just unbelievably mean to will Peter did was really, really mean, like just unbelievably mean to Will. I'm a big Will fan. Like I liked Will because he stepped out and I thought he went home last week in this like sea of men and to find out he didn't,

I was really, I just think he's funny and I just like him. I don't know. But, and I'm not a Peter fan. No. But when Peter threw the jacket in the water, completely dick move.

But when Will started crying, I was like, but he like, you know, threw it in water. Like, you know, sometimes you buy bed sheets and underwear and immediately wash them like in water. So like, I know it's a dick move, but like the jacket's gonna be okay i know it's not about the jacket it's a symbol it's a symbol nick peter took a symbol of michelle's

affection and threw it away and are we despite being a will fan we were not in any way foreshad like he really triggered will like it he felt a rage in him that he at least stepped he had the self-awareness to step away and remove himself before he lashed out now granted like they captured it because they capture everything fast forward you know but And they showed it. But are we letting that slide? Because that was an aggressive reaction to disappointment. I chalk it up to the pressure cooker. And it wasn't like what he was saying was violent. He just was like, this guy's really coming at me

and i don't know why and it it maybe even surprised him how emotional he was like just the phrase this man is really pushing my buttons is adorable in its sadness and disappointment but i think it was more and I think he was aware enough to know I can't get into a fight because then I'm the bad guy which is a bummer yeah because I think

in the civilian world like Will would have destroyed at some point he just walked over and punched him in the nose. And just been like, get out of my face. And Will knew he couldn't do that. And I think that was maybe his go-to.

And he just like, I need to leave. And that rage was... And I think you... And also looking at how the pacing of this date worked is it was between Will and Martin for who was going to get the group date rose. Cause Martin checked in on her, but Will got the jacket and was top Maverick or whatever.

And so I think for Will, it was also like, yeah, feeling like his, his, his like lead or that the prize that he had gotten, that he could maybe get the group date Rose was like taken away or thrown away. Or,

you know, if Michelle asked him where the jacket was after that moment, like, how is he going to handle that? I'm sure it was just like a very confusing, emotional thing. And the guys really identify. They're like,

now that this has happened with Jamie, we don't want to be the problem for Michelle. Like we don't want to start any extra trouble. Like he even says like, I'm not going to tell her about Peter. I don't want to ruin her night. I really like that from Will. Yeah.

And it's a very mature self-sacrificing move. And I think it was a lot of the like, you know, if he got, if he had gotten the rose i think he would have calmed down really fast but not getting not getting the rose having that taken away from him it's like he you know i'm sure he felt like he got he got tripped at the finish line yeah you make that's a really good point because yeah, Will probably doesn't know that winning any competition in the day portion of the group date is the most worth it. It doesn't translate always. Ever, almost never.

But they always think it does, right? And you're right. I think Will thought he was really in the running for this group date rose and he had gotten into this fight with peter before and sometimes in that world you find yourself in this drama and like have this kind of out of body like how the fuck did i get into this like how did this happen and like you can tell yeah and i think even his drama with peter where he wrote peter for how do you spell narcissist that was

will right yeah and i think he was just trying to be funny. Exactly. Like, I think he sort of was like, I'm trying to be funny with this guy and have, like, playful competition and this guy's taking my shit and throwing it around. Yeah. It's also like, again, like, I thought

we were just, like, I thought we were goofing around and now you're messing with my thing that I put an emotional weight on that anyone would feel emotional about. Because if it didn't get thrown in the pool, he probably would have worn it to the cocktail party. Remember? Yeah. I feel like when Will called Peter a narcissist, had Peter walked over to Will and said, hey, can I talk to you quick? And he just calmly said, I'm sure you're probably joking, but like put yourself in my shoes.

No one wants to be called a narcissist in this world. So like, come on, man. I feel like Will would have been like, you're right, I was joking, I'm sorry. But instead, Peter being Peter and he just kind of like, his go-to is to insult whoever he is having a, you know, he fights fire with fire,

which. Stone fire oven pizza. Yes. Every time. And not well. And he says, he's very confusing things. And he,

Peter wants to cut you at the, like everything he says, he wants it to hurt his, his enemies. And I, yes, I think anyone can get themselves in this petty art. Like I think if Peter has a superpower, it's to get you into an insanely petty fight without you realizing it, even if you didn't want to.

Like you're like, I want to stay out of any pettiness. And Peter, if you don't pay attention, you will be sucked into an insanely petty fight with Peter without you even knowing. And I think that's Peter's superpower. So yeah, Martin, Martin gets the group date rose. Yes. And they get to go dance to a string quartet playing.

Take my breath away. Can I also say whoever edited Martin and Michelle dancing while Will is pulling his soppy jacket out of the pool must be the same editor that put Wells crying with Connor B's song in Paradise because it was so magnificent and so dramatic. Yeah. I wonder if the producers are like, no, you have to use the pole. Because it was kind of unnecessary towards the end. He could have gotten on his hands. But like, anytime you're fetching anything out of

a pool, it's humiliation. No one has ever stood with dignity and fetched something out of a pool. Especially if it's your thing. Yeah. Even a parent being like, oh, I'll get the pool noodle from the deep end. Like, you've never looked like a king in that moment.

Yeah. Like you are humbled by the pool. Also so wet. That jacket was like a fire hydrant. Oh, I think a bomber jacket really soaks. It's a- It was absorbent. They're like deceivingly thick in fabric, you know?

Yes. And so, yes, I think they absorb a lot of water. I think the best way to fix that is let it just dry out and then take it to a dry cleaner. Yeah. I think it's probably the best way to maintain that. Because you don't want to come around also smelling like chlorine. Yeah.

Like nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. I don't think Will's going to win Michelle's heart, but I do want right now, like all I want in the next 12 months is to will to find love on paradise. I really think that he can be an exceptional person in paradise. Yes. And,

uh, seems very smooth, but also very emotional, which is a great combination. And funny. I think he's funny. Yeah. He's great.

Um, all right. So there, there wrap up, wrap up the group date. You got to love the self-awareness. Rodney comes out wearing the apple and he's not the tallest person. And in that world, six feet is short.

Like they're casting like six, two, six, three, six. And this season, like isn't like Nate, like six, seven. He's like 6'8". Yeah. Like he's very, very tall. You know, so you can... If you're 5'11 in that world,

you feel like... It's intimidating. It must be intimidating, you know? And so like 6'2", is like I think the average height. And, you know, you have these beautiful guys.

And Rodney's a handsome, handsome guy, but it would be... He's so sweet. It'd be very easy for, you know, Rodney to go the way of Peter, but it would be very easy for Rodney to go the way of Peter. It can be very intimidating. It will, that world plucks at your insecurities

and you see Rodney shine and not be intimidated and not be weird and just lean into his strengths. And I love that. He's so optimistic and positive in a way that doesn't feel like it's fake for the show. It, that just seems like who he is. Like, he seems like the guy who's like, yeah, I'll help you move. No problem. Like he just is. So I really was like, from the beginning, I was like this, he's very, I think he's very cute. He's very handsome. And he's almost like if you met him out, you'd be like, wow, that guy's hot and like buff. Like, oh, my God. But in this he doesn't have six pack abs like in this world. You're right. He's not the sort of archetype.

And so it's also sort of refreshing to see like, OK, a person with a normal sized body and head can make it through and get this sort of affection. But he really was like aware of like, I want to be there for her. I want to make her laugh. I want to show her that there's more to me. I sort of didn't like that. It was kind of framed of like, he's really funny. So I have to get him out of the friend zone. Like, what is that? Well, I don't like, I don't like that. Did Michelle say that? No. Michelle said I got to chip away at the friend zone. Oh, okay. Well, cause I, I kind of loved, it was at Malik who said Malik Malik was kind of getting on him and then, and yeah, and he went home. So I love, I love that. He's just like, you know, he's all cocky. He's like, I got frosted tips and Rodney, Rodney doesn't stand a chance. And that guy went home. And I think Rodney is going to be around for a while, but you're right. And, and to getting attention and you insert him into a world where

like it's a highly competitive you know a bunch of a bunch of guys used to it he still leans into his strengths and i think yeah i i think you that's something uh we should give rodney credit for not the particularly most interesting one-on-one date. I feel like he definitely, it started at night, which I think is not normal. I think you're still in kind of this quarantine hotel. So they don't have to travel. There's no, they can kind of, because truthfully, one-on-one dates, when you add up all the minutes, aren't an entire day you get like two hours in the in the first half of the portion and you get like two hours at night it's like four hours maybe um and you can do that all at night if you're not traveling i think the part that looked the most fun was when they were

handcuffed together and had to like break open the boxes. Like it was, cause I think he sort of was like, all right, like we, it seemed like he thought they were on a timer because he's just like running around and like, you can see her being like, and like sort of being pulled by him. And then they're laughing as they sort of like end up kind of on top of each other as they're opening up all these boxes. And that I was like, oh, this looks really,

that looked really fun and like a silly thing to do together and they both i think are so like all right let's just see like let's make that let's let's make the best of it that i think you you know a lot of other guys would have been a little more concerned about like how they look or you know trying to turn it into like a romantic moment which you can build all that affection in these moments where it's sort of effortless rather than like forcing kind of a romantic moment yeah you kind of lean into like the moment you're you're you're given um also like the is it a product of quarantine because i don don't remember the producers really leaning into taking your clothes off

as much as they have in the past couple seasons. It's like, we can't travel. We're limited. How naked can we get? That is so stupid because if you're like, okay, we want them to take their clothes off, then it's like,

all right, you have to swap clothes and run around in each other's clothes. That would even be sillier than one person has to scream in a megaphone and one person has to run around naked. And then get people like Tayshia and Caitlyn coming out and making a weird reaction. Yeah, the first time we've seen them in like years. It's like, Oh yeah, of course they're going to watch the naked. Tayshia and Clay,

uh, Caitlin, Clayton, Tayshia and Caitlin have become really good at responding. Like they've never seen something before, even though it's the 20th time they've seen it. It's just like, okay.

They add a real screwball element. Like, Oh my God, this is nuts. They're like Ethel and Lucy peeking out from behind a pillar. Like, whoa! I love... I really like them as the hosts.

I think it gives a nice... But they do sort of... They react like cartoon characters whenever anything is slightly less than normal. I'm like whatever about it. I like it when they have the bonding moments with the leads. I think that's a great thing. I don't think Chris Harrison did that very well. He wasn't in that... Caitlin and Tayshia offer a unique perspective. Anyone who's been the lead, it's truly an incredibly unique experience. And unless you've been in it, you don't know.

And I think that's cool to have people there to do that. And I like it when they do that because I think it just adds some value to that experience. Because I do think the leads are truly lost with like, what the fuck should I do? How did you do this? Right? And so to give an actual, I don't know, I felt the same way. Try this.

I like that. And so I do like it when they do, when they do that. Oh, so yeah. I mean, and so I, you know, Rodney's biggest fear, you know, relatable, not, you know,

dying before being a husband and father. I can relate. I, you know, especially father for me, you know, like husband, you know, I guess I'm still open to getting married, but like, I definitely want to be a father.

I wanted to, I wanted to follow up on that because it, it wasn't not being a father, not being a husband. It was dying before. So I was like, is there something in his family that, because it,

it sort of sounded like his father wasn't around, but it didn't sound like his father died. So I was just sort of like, that's a very specific way to phrase that, that I just wanted a little bit of information on. Well, I would be, like as someone who really, like it's always been a life goal of mine to be a father

and I haven't yet. And I always thought I would be at this point. That being said, I still 100% believe I'm going to be, right? And I think if you're someone who that is truly a passion and a goal of yours, you know you're going to make it happen. So I, I would, I took that as Rodney's like, I'm going to be a dad. Yeah. It's just a matter of when and whether it's, I, I have a child through like sex and it's my, or I adopt, I'm, I'm going to be a father unless I die. Yeah. And don't get that opportunity. And so I, I take it that way because I'd, I'd answer it that way too. It's just like, it's just, it's not if it's when,

but if I knock on wood, get in a car accident, like I'm not going to be a dad. So I took it that way. Okay. Yeah. I just want, that was a moment where I was like, oh, Michelle, like ask about that phrasing because that seems so interesting to me. And then she talked about,

she doesn't want to be complacent and settle in her life. And I really, that resonated with me. One of my greatest weaknesses is to not be present, not be in the moment, to always think about the net. And that can serve me well, but it creates a lot of anxiety and it creates a lot of stress in my life and insecurities that I have. And I, I, yeah, it's a very relatable thing that Michelle talked about of, you know, it's a, it's a much better way of articulating when someone says like, I'm an, cause like clearly Michelle's an overachiever, you know, like, and instead of saying, I'm just an overachiever, it was, I have a hard time, you know, being in the moment is essentially, and I liked that.

I also love how Rodney asked her about her, like Rodney asked her about her, like her relationship. I don't want to pry, but like, I do want to get to know you. I love that he, he did that because to get to know you. I love that he did that because in that world, it's very easy to be like, well, let's talk about me and my story or whatever. And he spent some time trying to get to know Michelle. And then obviously, Michelle told a very personal story about being called the N-word at a grocery store and how that affected her and then they connected. word at a grocery store and how that affected her and then they connected and yeah i i really liked the way that this conversation about her past relationship happened because i think you know

we've seen versions of this with other leads uh or other contestants and other leads i remember there was a moment for uh andrew on katie's season where he said that he had been in a relationship where his partner sort of didn't understand or know how to react in the moment and i thought katie's response was a little like it was such a well-meaning white lady response so it's like well of course i'm gonna be a mama bear and like protect my husband and my kids. But seeing two people saying like, I've had this experience and I want it to go differently. And the thing that could be different about that is choosing a different partner that does want to engage with me on those issues and does want to have those discussions with me, whether it's a black partner who's had the same experience

or a white partner that has to go further than just doing the bare minimum. I thought it was sort of like a different way to respond to that. And it tied into her being like, I don't want to settle. I don't want to be complacent. I don't want to just accept the bare minimum in my relationships either. And I've definitely been in that place and been with white partners who have not would get on me and be like you're you're making this about race when it really isn't and his friend would send me these like deranged facebook messages and i remember telling my boyfriend who's white being like hey i think you need to talk to your friend i think your friend is on something that if I'm going to be around your house, you need to deal with. And his response was like, oh, well, that's just that's just David.

Like, that's just what he's like. He's argumentative and not seeing the other part of it. moments where he's gotten in between me and like a someone who's saying something wrong in a well meaning way and someone who's saying something wrong in a not well meaning way and just that difference is so pronounced but it was just so great to see like Michelle not apologize for wanting that or being like I don't know and then Rodney being able to like sympathize with her. I just, in the last few iterations of this conversation, I think we've seen the version that centered the white person rather than the version that centers how the person of color actually feels. So I really liked that they got to have that moment and that Rodney was perceptive enough to pick up on it and be like,

well, here's my experience with this thing. I also like, and thank you for saying that, I also liked too, is that, so you have the conversation about race and how that related to Michelle, but looking at a bigger picture too, she also articulated a feeling that I also think resonates with a lot of people and correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of women too of guys are notorious for trying to solve the problem without empathizing first. And I've been there in the sense that as a guy, we make the mistake of coming across as dismissive and condescending and not just sitting down and listening to your partner and making them feel heard. And you're like, I want to understand you. And I thought that was also just the way

she articulated that was a very relatable thing that I think goes on in a lot of relationships and something that men need to continue to work on and listen better. Yeah. Yeah. Just the way she said, I shouldn't have to justify how I feel. I'm allowed to feel what I want to feel, however I'm feeling for as long as it takes for me to get over it. Yes. And so then you can, so you're really seeing what she's asking of a partner. Yes. And I think you sort of see a lot of protection and taking care of and providing a sort of this,

you have to be this big, scary person to do that. Or you have to make all this money to provide for me. And I think Michelle is continuing to say, I want the space to figure myself out. I want the space to have my emotions. I'm going to do the same for you. And we see her do that over and over. So she's looking for someone that gives her that same space and time to feel what she's feeling and go through what she's going through. Totally. Not only is Michelle willing to do the same thing, I think she's tired of being the person who's only doing that in her relationships. And she's truly looking for her emotional equal, like her emotional intelligence equal to like be there. And yeah, I mean, not knowing anything about Michelle, just what we've learned

from watching it is that, yeah, it's probably, it's not money or power. It's the emotional intelligence of someone that she feels like is on her level. So she doesn't have to carry the relationship, whether it's with humor or being protective or working through stress. Like I think she's looking for her emotional support system, not because she can't do it on her own, but she's just tired of doing it for her partner. And when you're in a position where you are, I would feel this as a teacher, as a director, I'm taking care of people for a lot of my day. So I would always joke with my boyfriend,

be like, I've made too many decisions today. You need to make a decision because I can't make another decision. So like, even it's like, oh, are we going to watch a TV? It's like, I can't make that decision. That's too many. Just I've, because I've had to deal with like four students and they didn't turn in their papers and I've had to deal with like my cast and nobody's off book. I had to make a decision.

Am I going to yell at them or I'm going to let it slide? Like I've made too many decisions. You need to make a decision. Am I going to yell at them or I'm going to let it slide? I've made too many decisions. You need to make a decision for me. And so I sort of get that sense from Michelle of being like, all day I'm taking care of people. I'm taking care of myself. I'm taking care of my students. Somebody just take care of me for a little bit of the day. Like, please. And I relate to that. Yeah. And I think as part of what we opened up with, I just don't think we've had this level of nuance in terms of what the lead is emotionally looking for in the past. I think it's been more surface level conversations for whatever reason, whether the show is not to air it or not, but we're

learning more about Michelle's needs as a partner, I think, than past leads in the past. And it's been really enjoyable. And I think she's able to articulate it. And sometimes she overuses vulnerable because that's just like a bachelor nation word, but she's articulating it in a very specific way that I think we don't see. And even people that claim to be very emotionally intelligent or very in tune with their whatever, I don't know if I've seen it articulated as clearly in those terms from the lead either. Correct. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right. Because maybe they articulate it well outside of this world or whatever. As the lead, you have so much on your mind.

Michelle's in charge of carrying the show. She's the host of the show, really. Yeah. And it's hard not to remove that, but she's still able to do that in a way where it's presented in the moment in a way that they can use. Because sometimes, and I've been there, leads will talk about, I was on the phone with Matt James and he was just frustrated. He's like, they're not showing some of the stuff.

And I'm like, trust me, man man I get it whatever but I remember thinking well when did I say this and who did I say it to and was that a something they could use right was it happening and and Michelle's able to do that and it makes it makes it easier for them to use so she's doing it in a way that I think is more present and, and, and, and in the moment than, than most, most people. I'm just like looking at my notes when we get to the end of the date with Rodney and she goes,

I, I, would you, I absolutely like enjoy spending time with you. It's also like, she's, you know, she's get,

she's giving clear, like she's saying, like she's sort know she's get she's giving clear like she's saying like she's sort of saying like now we have this silly thing between us that we can like reference and joke about and i'm gonna like give that to you i'm gonna demonstrate to you that i listened and remembered a thing about you that i also don't think we always see like we don't see the lead sometimes initiate those little fun, silly things. It's on the contestants to come up with the thing at the cocktail party that calls back, whatever. But we've seen Michelle do that. And so she's a very good listener, oh, this is a cute couple thing. This would be a cute couple thing if they were together i i did not expect

rodney to really be a a contestant but like they work that there's a there's something there i was watching with natalie i was like what if what if rodney wins like i i don't think he's going to but at the same time maybe like i could see it, you know? And there's tons of people that like Rodney is their type. Yes. And like a sweet, kind, handsome guy. Handsome. That is like, yeah, great smile, like cuddly.

Like when they're on the bed together talking about their fears, he's like, the way he's looking at her is so sweet. And it's like, yes, go get it. Like, I love it. Yeah, comfortable in their skin, I think, is a trait often. Like when you people like list qualities that they want on a partner, like I don't think people will often list top five, like someone who's just sure of themselves and comfortable. They know who they are in a partner. I don't think people will often list top five, like someone who's just sure of themselves and comfortable. They know who they are in any situation. And I think you could say that about Rodney. And I think it's something that should

be in people's top three. And at the end of the day, it is, but they don't ever say it. They don't name it. And I think he's someone. And I wonder, as a woman, is that more valuable? And I wonder like as a woman, is that more valuable? Because I feel like men have a way of being more chameleons that way or like peacocking in situations. And I think as women, does that get frustrating? I don't have to worry about you. Like to me, that's the, like the feeling of like, you know what your deal is, you know what your strengths and your weaknesses and your limits are, and you know what you're good at and what you like to do. So I can go. And I'm someone who like, if I'm in a room, I'm like work in the room. And my boyfriend is not always that person. And so for me, but him to be like, I know I can be here for this amount of time and then it's time to go.

Or like, I will be, you go do what you need to do. I'll take care of myself and I'll be fine. I'm your boyfriend. Yeah. I'm going to go hang out with your mom while you go do this thing with your brothers. Like, we're good. Like that sort of like it's stability is what that is, I think.

And I think when you're talking about these men that peacock and the chameleon and they, you know, you take them out and suddenly they're a different person that reads to me as instability. Yeah. That like the footing of you, there's any moment something could definitely shift and I have a different person in front of me. And like, I don't know how to handle that, but that like stability of someone who knows who they are, they are themselves in every situation, they can take care of themselves and they can find their way to be anywhere they're going to be, I think is comforting and and attractive in that comfort.

Totally. And I feel like when it comes to someone being themselves and being comfortable in their own skin, it's like, are you capable of processing your emotions or are the pipes blocked up? Because when the pipes are blocked up, it manifests in a lot of crazy fucking ways. Yeah. No, totally. And I think it's just such a comfort. Yeah, such a comfort feeling to know who your partner is, which sounds insane. Like it sounds like a given,

but I don't think it is in many early relationships and early dating situation. And it's, yeah, someone being reliable. I know if they say they're going to be there, they're going to be there. If they say they're going to have the, you know, feel this way or or be with me I know how I'm going to feel when I'm with them like that is really this reliability and I and you know you look at the hey strip down and like

run around kind of thing there's so many guys on this season and probably past seasons that if they were told to do that they would would have flipped out. I mean, Joseph, I mean, Joseph would have lost his mind, you know, but it's like, Rodney was like,

this isn't, this is all right. Okay. My mom might be a little embarrassed, but it's fine. Like, I think it's, it's a lack and it's a lack of that,

like bruised ego as well. Like you're saying, taking that time to figure out who you are and your emotions and how to handle them. You're not scared of your emotions. You are at peace with them, which is just such a powerful thing in any relationship, whether it's a family member, a parent, a romantic partner, being with someone who's at peace with their emotions and not at war with themselves. My God. What a gift. Yeah.

Life them. Yeah. And Rodney, I think is the type of guy and something I'm envious of Rodney, where no matter what the party or the situation that everyone's like, make sure Rodney comes. He's that guy, right? Because Rodney's always a good time. I'm so envious of that type of energy because when you described your boyfriend, I was very much like, I can go, I could be great. And sometimes I could work the room, but sometimes I just, you go do your thing. I'll be fine. Don't have to worry about me, but I just need to like, be here in a way. And I'm not always like, you don't always like, I'm not like Ronnie's fun.

He's always down and he's always making the group feel better. And I bet every time there's an event, people are just like, well, can Rodney come? Because it's more fun. He reminds me of my younger brother. And my younger brother is like a big guy. He's very tall, big guy. But you look at his face and he just has the sweetest big smile, these big eyes with huge eyelashes. And he's one of those people that every time someone meets him

and then he leaves everyone turns to each other and goes oh my god we love matt like that is just what his vibe is like he met my boyfriend's family and his mom my boyfriend's mom was like i love your brother this is great like that is that feeling with rodney i'm just like oh i oh, I love him. I love him. Totally. 100%. Good energy. Rodney's great. He's great with moms. I just know it. Yes. If he makes it to hometowns, he's great with moms. He's going to win over the other

guys' moms there. I think Rodney's... Right now he's in my top four. He's great. I love him. Such a sweetie. All right. Well, let's get to the other group date, which is essential. I just remember. All right. Well, let's get to the other group date, which is essential. I just remember kind of Jamie.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's right. So it's the poem. It's the spoken word. Spoken word. I thought it was a really charming moment. Chris G. When he was fangirling.

Yeah. Is it Chris? He was like, this is pretty cool. And he was just like poking everyone. He's like, guys, guys, it's Rudy Francisco. Yeah. It's just like, you got your basketball date. You he was just like poking everyone. He's like, guys, guys, it's Rudy Francisco. Yeah, it's just like, you got your basketball date.

You know, I get my poetry. This one's for me. Yeah, this one's for me. I was a spoken word poet in high school. My high school, we have this huge spoken word program. It's like very intense. The teacher treated it like a sport. So you had to maintain a GPA to be in it.

And I competed at the chicago poetry slam it's called louder than a bomb the chicago teen poetry slam and like my high school we were like every year we would place in the top like five uh and you the like the final showcase the final competition was at the Metro in Chicago. Oh, cool. It's like very cool rock music venue. But spoken word for a good three and a half years was a very big part of my life. And I was like, oh, man, I am ready to judge these dumbass poems. Well, what do you think? Because honestly, I was like, not good good for them i was just a lot of them

you know i think the bachelor producers have found this cut especially in quarantine it's like there's things that like and now we get naked that's weird but also like right around this time they like to find especially on the bachelorette these dates that allow their male contestants to show like this kind of in a group setting and emotional vulnerability that makes the audience kind of warm up. Like, you know, the date I was on, on Katie's season, on Tayshia's season, you had that art date where it's kind of the same theme as some of those dates where they get to kind of express themselves artistically or emotionally. And this was another kind of nice date like that yeah there there's just like

the spoken word cadence that you must speak in if you are reading a poem like that like seeing that i was like oh i'm very like chris went full spoken word like it was just this is his i mean he came out of the limo doing that. Yes, but I was like, he is there with his poem. He is reading off the page. And I like, it's just so funny to see like how these guys, like suddenly they have to package like what their thing is into like a poem, into a couple lines. And so I almost wish that like the pressure was kind of off it a little bit

to be, instead of being like, you have to tell her everything right now using, you know, literary devices, but just like, just paint a picture for her. Like, cause you know, as a writer, you also, you tell me what's like, just paint a word picture, like what you see, what you feel, what's in your mind you know sort of take that pressure off because seeing some of these things of like romeo where's your juliet we had never met i was like oh god and like malik being like broken homes broken relationships broken me i was like i've heard that poem ten thousand ten thousand my dad would always joke he's like i don't want to go to these things everybody's talking about how much

their dad sucks when we come to our showcases yeah but I thought like everyone took it they tried the correct amount of serious they tried they had 45 minutes maybe to write

these poems so like if you're not a like really if you're not a writer if this isn't something you do writing is very scary for people and like and then performing it and performing it is very scary and writing something that is good to be performed is also like a different skill yes uh. Uh, cause sometimes, you know, in the spoken word community, my teacher would always say a lot of people write for the stage. They don't write for the page.

And like, it's just a different set of, and having something that's good on both levels is very, very difficult. Um, and everyone, everyone tried, everyone took it seriously.

That's why I'm also like, Oh, these guys are so sweet. Like they tried to write a good poem for the girl they like. and everyone tried. Everyone took it seriously. That's why I'm also like, oh, these guys are so sweet. They tried to write a good poem for the girl they like. I'm like, I love it. And then we get to Jamie's nonsense. When it comes to liars, I...

When it comes to liars? Well, don't like them. And for me, it's really the small lies that really are telling. I lost my notebook. tell major lies. And so when Jamie just kind of throws that out there, when it's like probably literally right there on his seat, he just can't help himself from telling these small lies. He could have, why didn't he say, I'm, why didn't he just name what he was about to do? I'm going to try something different. I know this isn't what I'm supposed to do, but I'm going to ask for you guys to give me the space to try something different. I know this isn't what I'm supposed to do, but I'm going to ask for you guys to give me the space to try something here.

Okay. Do that. Fine. Still weird, but like at least just own it. He didn't, he didn't write anything. He didn't write anything.

And he thought him just speaking extemporaneously is smarter and better and like more in line with what they would want than him actually writing a poem. And it's also like a cheat to get out of the vulnerability aspect, because I think he doesn't want to express any vulnerability in front of anyone else. Like he really can't do that. And I, you know, it's very hard to reconcile what we learned about him. Yes. in front of anyone else. Like he really can't do that. And I, you know, it's very hard to reconcile what we learned about him last episode because he's clearly been through a lot of trauma.

And, but it is so clear that he does not want to be vulnerable in front of anyone else. And it's like this performance of confidence in front of the other men that he doesn't do in front of anyone else and it's like this performance of confidence in front of the other men that he doesn't do in front of michelle when it's just the two of them he's not like this as much so it's about these other people that and he just can't and he could have done something like and i was and i was the angel like if he had done that like and the the the little

girl was my mom like i would have forgiven it it's like all right you don't know how to talk about this thing yet and you just want to make it sound deep so you're going to do it as a little story but it was just like and that's the journey like get out of here yeah and you said it perfectly i i am having a hard time reconciling with what Jamie has been through. And then knowing how this show works, it's very hard for me to like, like I was telling Allie and Amanda before we started recording, you know, I'm very like, before I just go off on someone and start being like this person, like real, some serious red flags in real life i'm just like watching it and there's a handful of moments where like you you got jamie's voice over and jamie's facial expressions and i'm like is this guy as bad as he seems or is it just like clever editing like matching some like out of context weird things jamie's saying versus like these really weird facial expressions he's

making. But no, like we're getting enough of meat from Jamie. Like I lost my book, this like weird lecture and these facial expressions and this, this line he did to the, his willingness to just to people's face where it's so clearly a lie. Like I, you know, and and that's and the truth is like people can experience some real hard tragedy not deal with it and then subsequently turn into like you know dangerous people or a lot like people who like yeah they need to work their shit out before they get into relationships of any kind friendships or romantic or otherwise because their inability to work through their own shit is going to bring a lot of toxicity in this relationship. And Jamie seems to be like the poster child for something like that. I think for a lot of people that go through trauma or hardship, they tell themselves and they believe like, I never want to be in that position again.

They tell themselves and they believe like, I never want to be in that position again. I never want to be, to have to worry about whatever that was again. And so as a result, they create this like invulnerable persona. And anytime they are with people that they don't feel that they can be safe with or tell that story to, it becomes like, well, here's this invulnerable persona. And if I can perform this strength here, this bad thing that happened to me is never going to happen again. Or I can prove that it didn't affect me, whatever.

But I think it is connected because it is putting on this like bigger than everybody else. I don't have these putting on this like bigger than everybody else. I don't have these problems. I'm smarter than everyone else. I can take care of everything. When it's clear there were moments in his life where he didn't always feel that way. Even if he hasn't identified that to himself fully yet.

And it's one of those things where it's like, if he just was like, you know, I don't know how to do, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to write a poem. So I was going to tell a story. All right. That even is more truthful and sets up what he did a little better. And then you can have the guys be like, eh, man, we all didn't know how to write poems, but okay. Like, I think it's just sort of the like, from on high of what he's doing that is really frustrating to watch. And I'm sure even more frustrating to be around. Yeah.

Well, because then we see him like pull this producer and just, it's like, he can't. And I get it. Like I get his point of view because what I get is his frustration. Like I get his point of view because what I, what I get is his frustration. Like I get that everyone there doesn't know what they signed up for. And we always say that.

Right. And you see Jamie struggling with this, but like, why can't he just, you know, and, and Jamie, this early validation that Jamie has gotten is,

is a death. It's, it's not, it, it really hurts people. And someone like Jamie, who has these insecurities, it's wild to me just how much he can't handle Michelle giving validation to

anyone else, but him, especially someone like, you know, we've all seen the, like, if you like them, then you can't like me stuff. We've seen that, but like, you know, we've all seen that. Like, if you like them, then you can't like me stuff.

We've seen that, but like, wow. It's not specific enough like that. Cause there, you know, there's always like the guys and they're like, well,

if you like, you know, I remember like Luke P on Hannah season, how everyone was just like, I don't know how she likes this guy. I don't know how she doesn't see what we see. is happening uh and but it's not for jamie it's not specific it's just like all of these men in general are less than me which is also way harder to hear it's different because with like peter and will it's like I clearly just don't like this person and I wish this person would go home.

Yeah. For Jamie, he's just like, what are we waiting for? I'm gonna win. Call it now. Which that hubris, when you have Joe and Nate in the same room and you have that level of

confidence, like that's insane to me. It's also just like, okay, Nate is 15 feet tall tall clayton was a pro football player like sir are you aware what television program you're on and i nate has incredible swag like he is always charming and oh like it's just it's it's impressive like joe's got that quiet confidence and he's got those eyes and he's sweet. And I don't doubt that Joe has game, but Nate has so much game. He's just like, Joe, go talk to my

girl because it's not going to matter because when I have my moments, it's great. And I'm looking at who else is on this. And Michelle really has chemistry with a lot of these guys. Like she has chemistry with Rick, which was very surprising. Like he seems a little bit like coming in on the table is a little doofy, but like he they have chemistry. She has real chemistry with Brandon. She has real chemistry with Brandon. She's clearly feeling a lot of these guys in a way that doesn't feel like I'm just going to make out with everybody

because I get to make out with everybody. Because she's not making out with everyone. There's a part of that too. And part of it is like, you just can't do it. I just want one more thing about Jamie and that side conversation producer. When he started criticizing, it was like,

it was, he was so into his bullshit that he couldn't even like Michelle giving attention to someone who's not him. Wasn't Michelle's ability to like, just see the good in people or whatever. It was her not taking this seriously because he was, she was, he wasn't getting all of her energy and attention.

Yes. That's, I hate using the word narcissist on this show, but that is, that is a very me way to look at something. Right. On a level that like is. And it's also like,

that's how like little that's, that's borderline, like incel language of like, this woman isn't giving me attention. So she's giving other men attention. That proves that she's, you know, the extreme version of this is she's a slut,

which is what he was saying with, she's in spring break mode is she's not giving me attention. She's giving anybody else, anyone else she gives attention that makes her a hoe that makes her a slut. And, you know,

I get to make fun of it. I get to make fun of this. I get to judge this a little bit because obviously her not giving me attention. It's like that stuff is, that stuff gets bad fast. Like that's not something that is like, that's not fun villain. Like that is,

that's how you get incels. Yeah. That's like you better work on yourself because you might be toxic in real life. It's not just, you can't blame it on editing bro or the soundtrack or whatever. It's pickup energy. It's not just, you can't blame it on editing bro or the soundtrack or whatever. It's pickup energy.

It's pickup artists energy. It's, which is derived from that like incel energy, but it is, and it's not even being able to be like, cause there's men where they're like, Oh, I'm,

I'm a front runner. I'm in the lead. Now I get to wait for her to come to me. And she's going to deal with all these other guys. But in the end, that's not what he's doing. No. Either. Which is, he's bonkers.

No, it's wild. You made a good point about Michelle's chemistry. And I think what you have is a product of them naming two Bachelorettes at the same time and having Michelle be the second season and just it's a product of time I think you know again the producers

are you know ideally casting for chemistry and TV shows but sometimes they don't name their lead into the last minute and so they're casting before they have their lead so they're kind So they're kind of have someone in mind, but I think they very much cast it specifically for Michelle. And I'm expecting this not only to pay off now early on, but to pay off. I think we'll hopefully get more drama later on when you're seeing Michelle really struggling with some real connections versus like Michelle having connections

with one, maybe two guys and pretending to have connections with the rest. And I hope that that, you know, unfortunately for Michelle, it'll be a challenge for her, but it'll be a good as a viewer because you're seeing real connections. So I think they, I think they,

I know they casted more specifically for Michelle and part of that is they had they had four months to do it. They had the time to do it. It's not even like, you know, because you look at Katie's season, she wanted to bang everybody. She was keeping

people around because she was like, maybe if I keep around long enough, I'm allowed to bang them. And I think you look at michelle has the people she has chemistry with it feels real and it feels lived in like the even i don't know if it was this episode or not but one of the times she was like sitting with rick and he just like had his arm his hand just like right on her right into the crook of her arm, very gently. And she's initiating a lot of these kisses. She's looking at these guys and giving them the eyes and going in for the kiss in a way that feels like, oh, this is a woman that is in control of her sexuality, is very into the people that she's with and like wants to go after it,

but it doesn't feel like it's just scattershot. Yeah. Like it can sometimes feel, especially like this early. She's like, these are the, cause she's not, she's not kissing everybody.

She's not, you know, which if she, even if she was fine, but it feels like she's kissing the people. She very much wants to kiss, which is great because you're like, you feel that the romance that you want out of a season, I can see, oh, we're going to get there. We're going to

get there to have these really good smooches. Yeah. She's not afraid, again, to show her sexuality. She's not ashamed of it, which you've gotten that before where like, I'm on TV and I come from a very conservative household. And like you said, she also isn't like, oh my god, I get to kiss anyone I want and maybe I get to have sex with them. And it's just

a bit of like, pump the brakes. It's nicely balanced. So yeah, the rest of the episode is essentially Jamie. Finally, you get Rick, you know, that was just a producer being like, hey, Rick, go ask Michelle. Like, who did you talk to?

Like, who the fuck? We're sitting here trying to figure out, but can you just tell me what happened? And yeah, I mean, Jamie's willingness to lie to the group again props to nate for saying let's wait hold on before we talk shit for an hour let's just go get him you know love that from from nate and uh you you just i was almost blown away by jamie's like he's just like, I don't know what I'm going to say,

but I'm definitely not going to tell the truth. And he was just like- He did not plan for this moment. I think he never thought it would get to this moment. He's like, I forgot my notebook. Yeah, he forgot his notebook. They ask him, they're like, cool, you had a conversation with Michelle.

What did you tell her? Which if you're making up a lie, you would figure out when someone's going to tell me. And he was like, it wasn't even my comment to Michelle. It was that I commented to Michelle and the comment was constant, but it was a comment. Like, sir, that's not, he just says like speculation over

and over like he doesn't have an answer. And the guys are like, cool, that's great. What did you say? Well, because he he at one point he was he told Nate after Nate called him up, he goes, my comment was that, hey, all the speculation that's been going on has created this character in the room. And Nate just continues to like hold him accountable. And he goes, weird dude,

because you keep saying I have no clue, but let me talk to Michelle about this character in the room after all this conversation. Yeah. Nate was just so,

he was just like not believing a single word. Also like, he's the one who had the story about Michelle like hanging out with the light-skinned baller, as Jamie mentioned. And sure, I don't doubt that maybe all the other guys saw a connection with Jamie and Joe, right?

And like, oh, they're from the same town. Andy and Josh were both from Atlanta when we filmed. They were like, oh, shit. Like, okay, fuck. You know, like, yeah, it's talked about, but like Jamie had this story and Jamie wanted to forget that he, that this was all about that very specific story.

Right. Right. And it was like, even if the house was talking about this connection, it's because you went around and told four guys this story. That they saw them together. You saw her with a guy, presumably Joe. And now as a result of that story,

it wouldn't have shocked me if the whole house was like, oh shit, are you dating Joe? Like, what the fuck? But you're the one who fucking started it. Right. the whole house was like oh shit are you dating joe like what the fuck but you're the one who fucking started it like you right and he it's very interesting because he took like two different pieces of information and like put them together in a way that is like he could have said my friend saw you out with a guy do you have a boyfriend did you have a boyfriend or do you have a boyfriend right before you came here that's a fair conversation sure you could have said you and joe are both from minnesota did you ever meet him like fair conversation but he like put them the put them togetherness of it is the is the sin that's the

like biggest lot because those other two things aren't lies yeah because if he went to michelle right away and said hey it's super's super, I heard this weird story. Did you have a boyfriend before the season? And then over and done with. But he told the group first or told some of the guys, planted that seed, and then went to Michelle being like, these guys are gossiping about this story. I don't know why.

And then he also kept claiming, didn't care I didn't hear it oh yeah he was napping apparently while the story was being told like what the fuck and Nate just being like oh it sounds like you're insecure about Joe

oh I love that line I think you're worried about Joe I love that from Nate like oh bro are you insecure about Joe and which what I love that is like are you it wasn't about us or me.

He was saying we all could and maybe we should be insecure about Joe, but we choose not to. It was such a, like the way Nate delivered that was so like magnificent because he could have lost, like Nate could have lost some of his power of making it about him, but he made it about Joe and

kind of named that we have a reason to be insecure about Joe, but I'm not. And I loved that. It was like crushing. And the rest of the guys were just like, okay, it's not, we're not even mad about the Joe part of it because we've all, like you said, we've all chosen that we are not upset. The thing we are upset about is your claim to be this big, strong man, but you won't own up to what you did. And we all would be fine and would move on. If you just said, yeah, I started the conversation. Yeah. My friend told me that story, whatever. And they're all like, we don't care if she was dating. They've made the choice. We don't care if she was dating someone. We don't care if she was dating someone.

We don't care if that person was Joe. We're still going to give it our best shot. But what's happening right now is you're lying to our face. And you lied to Michelle. And you lying to Michelle can end it for everybody. Like, you're not going to get... Because I don't know if Jamie thought he was going to get Joe sent home. Or like the house was going to turn on Joe or if he just wanted to like neg Michelle, but it's like, whatever you thought, they're all

sort of saying, whatever you thought you were going to get, you're not going to get, you're just being a snake. You're just lying to us and you're making Michelle upset. And we don't want that. Yeah. I mean, I guess it comes from a place of clearly Jamie has insecurities and clear, like he's projects this. He wants to think he's confident. He wants to feel confident and he wants to say, I got this. Why does she like any of these other guys?

But he goes in, but his insecurity is saying, you don't really got this. You need to sabotage these other guys. Cause if you don't, you won't actually win. Did anyone else notice that when Michelle is addressing the group, Jamie kept going like this with his eyes and like

he would like he was like trying to talk to Michelle with his eyes and it just came across as this really weird thing and I think part of... They kept cutting to him and it was like he was doing like, I'm thinking face. Yeah, and he was like who said that?

Yeah, but even when she was talking to the group And he was like, who said that? Yeah. But even when she was talking to the group, he kept like raising his eyebrows. Like, you know, he was like, hey, what's up? Well, he was even weird

when she eventually walked him out and was explaining why she was going to, you know, walk him out and send him home. He almost had this

almost like smile on his face. Like his face just didn't, it was clear that everything he was doing was just like disingenuous and he wasn't actually quote unquote there for the right reasons.

I kind of chalk it up to like, I think at that point he knew it was over and these weird facial expressions are I think him just trying to process this thing. But I mean, let me find some facial expression

that looks composed. So I don't break down. For the viewers at home. Oh my God, that was wild too. Oh, the viewers at home stuff was wild. Nate just being like, why do you keep saying episodes? There's no episodes here. Yeah. Somebody at home is speculating and they're like, who are you talking to?

I wonder if that's just the new norm now, just how kind of meta this show has gotten with social media. There's always going to be one or two people who are just so fixated on this being a show, but clearly Jamie is. Or like, did Jamie read something on Reddit before he got there and thought like, well, everyone at home already knows this, so I'm just going to bring it up now and then I'll be the fan.

Like, it was so... I honestly think he was just caught in a lie and was unwilling to tell the truth and he was just going to say literally whatever so much to the fact that he was just like, well, actually, I'm just worried about Michelle's brand brand which was like okay bro um yeah so yeah anyways uh jamie is gone is it brendan who got the second who he got he's got two group date roses in three episodes

yeah and he even says he's like i keep getting he's like i'm two for two even says, he's like, I keep getting, he's like, I'm two for two. Because I think he's, you know, he's like, I'm two for two group date rose on dates. We don't get the benefit of the next episode. But who do we think are potential villains now that Jamie is gone? I think Martin, maybe. No. I think. It's got to be somebody. I'm sorry, but the way Martin, for Martin, it was the way when they were making out,

he took off his glasses so tenderly. And I was like, that is not a bad man. Girl, I was like, okay, sir. I see this. I was like, class is in session. Thank you, Martin. I was like, I very much appreciate this. I want to be clear.

Like there's the Jamie's of the world where like, hey, that guy needs some real work on himself. And then on the rest of this show, these all might be exceptional men, but there's going to be a villain. Like villain doesn't mean bad guy. Right. It might be contrived villain.

It might be drama. I'm just saying like, it's going to be somebody we're on episode three. And I'm just saying like Martin, not. And it might be. It also has a one-on-one coming up. Sure could be where like some stuff starts. It's got to be somebody it could be. I think

it could be Brandon. I think it's going to be a situation where everyone falls in love really hard really fast. All the guys fall in love and then it's I can't watch him with her. Yeah, I think that that's what it feels like because the, like the emotions are going to get, I can tell that everyone's going to be really into her, which is great.

And so it feels like I, it's going to be the, like, I can't watch you with other people. Yeah, it could be that. And maybe you made a good point too, that I think the guys very quickly are picking up on how Michelle controls the room. And I think they're not threatened or intimidated by her, but I think they already profoundly respect her. And I think, I don't, I just don't, I haven't seen that type of like,

let's not piss off Michelle energy that quickly in other seasons. And I think, yeah, like, so I think the show is going to have to figure out maybe a more creative way to get the drama because it might not come from like your Peter Will type pettiness because I think they might be too afraid

because they know that Michelle is just going to be like, I mean, she's, we're three episodes in and she's walked two guys out. And I think in that world, people are just, they notice that type of actions. And I think it could be sort of like somebody gets sent home and they think they shouldn't leave because they're still in love or somebody is going to be on like a date that goes on really long. So somebody walks to where the date is. I think we're going to get those sort of like

Lloyd Dobler outside the house with the boom box kind of overly romantic things and having that be the drama. That's my prediction because I think it is, you know, this is going to be, she doesn't look at somebody and somebody's already in love. And they're like, oh no, my whole heart has been broken, she doesn't look at somebody and somebody is already in love. And they're like,

Oh no, my whole heart has been broken. Cause she didn't look at me. Yeah. Brandon. And you heard it from him. He's just like, I'm falling.

You see a sincerity in this, these two group date roses. I could see him falling too hard, too fast. And it gets a little messy for him. Yeah. And, and I'm,

I'm excited for the rest of the season because like clearly she's into people. She's willing to kind of like, you know, throw her hands up and have fun and sort of go with the flow. So I think we're going to get like a good romance. Even her with Nate, him being like, I just want to run away with you. And I just want to run. And her being like, I to run and her being like i'm gonna take my shoes off where should we go i was like oh this is a romance novel like this is good stuff so i'm i think we're gonna after a few seasons where we have not had a good proposal or a good romance or i i we're going to get a good love story in the end out of this because

the guys are all very cute and very into her. I'm as optimistic as you are. Allie, thanks so much. Always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks so much for having me back. Always welcome back. Please let my audience know again where they can digest more of your content

whether it's Bachelorette Recaps on Vulture or some of the other great things you're doing. Yeah, so you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at WTFlankStake. You can read my Vulture Recaps of The Bachelor on Vulture.com. I'm also a writer for Last Week

Tonight with John Oliver, which is Sunday nights on HBO. We just got a couple episodes left in the season. So tune in now. And congratulations on your Emmy, by the way. Oh, thank you so much. Since last time we had you on, you won, is that your second Emmy? No, it's my first nomination.

Okay. First of, as my dad says, first of many. Congratulations. Super awesome. We love having Emmy winners on this podcast. So thank you for sharing your award with us. Thanks for listening, guys. Keep listening

for a fantastic episode with Fibula. Don't forget to send your questions at askdickatcastmedia.com cast with a K. Be sure to check out our Ask Nick episodes as well. And if nothing else, have a great day.