The Viall Files - E344 Bachelorette Recap with Jason Ritter

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

We're breaking down all the Bachelorette drama with actor and producer, Jason Ritter! On this episode we dive into talking about traveling to Minneapolis, Jason’s love for Joe and his honesty with his feelings, and the rising trend of the group trying to protect Michelle from bad contestants. We also talk about how Chris gives favors with expectations, Clayton’s passionate response to seeing The Minnesota Vikings, the behavioral differences between Nayte and Joe that will determine their success, and how Michelle reacted when Martin made comments about all the women in his city.  “We can stay in toxicity because of our commitment to fixing things and not quitting.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Check out our new "Introvert" merch at www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: BetterHelp: Go to http://www.betterhelp.com/ViallFiles and unload the stress. Noom: Start building better habits for healthier, long-term results. Sign up for your trial at http://www.Noom.com/Viall RumHaven: Discover more recipes that will help you Sip into Paradise at http://www.RumHaven.com Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @jasonritter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The show is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. Without a healthy mind, being happy is hard. Visit betterhelp.com slash vile files and see if online therapy is for you. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the vile files bachelorette recap edition and i am very excited to welcome back a fan favorite recapper the one the only jason ritter is with us today to break down episode whatever of Michelle's season. Is it five? Allie has informed us that it's five.

Allie, Amanda, also welcome to the party. Hope you're well. Jason, how are you? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. We're always excited to have you. Just a couple housekeeping notes.

We have a very fun and exciting episode for you tomorrow. We'd figure... Everyone's talking about Taylor Swift and her song All Too Well. I knew. It's like a 10-minute... I have so many notes for you, Nick.

It's unreal. And I watched the video. There's a lot of conversations about it. We talk, obviously, about relationships and datings and terms that were, people are throwing out there and we're bringing back the wonderful Dr. Diane Strakowski to talk about, we're going to, we're going to recap the video, not necessarily talking about like Taylor. We're all just to declare, we're all Swifties in this room. I don't know about you, Jason, but we've had, we're all just declare we're all Swifties in this room. I don't know about you,

Jason, but I am too. We've had, we, we are all big fans, but Taylor gave us a gift of this like fight and this interaction between these two people. And there's a lot of conversations about it.

And we wanted to bring in the expert to talk about how could, what can we learn from this? Like what are these communication styles? Where is it an attachment style thing? What's going on? Who handled it well? How could we, if this is a fight we have found ourselves in before, et cetera, et cetera.

Oh, cool. We're going to break that down. It's going to be a ton of fun. So join us. It's going to be out a little late because we're recording it. So look for that about Wednesday afternoon-ish. You'll get a notification if you subscribe and follow. You're not going to want

to miss that episode. Is there anything else? We have our merch line or introverted line. If you want shirts that say things like, I was having fun until you asked me why I wasn't, check us out at vilefiles.com. If you find yourself to be introverted

and tired of explaining yourself in public why you are comfortable standing alone in your thoughts check us out let's get to Michelle Jason we as always as we bring a new guest love

just a quick thoughts on the season so far who are your favorites what do you think about michelle let's go oh boy um all right uh well thoughts on the season so far um i i love michelle i think she's um i think she's awesome i think she's uh it's pretty cool to see someone who just seems to like cull people as soon as there's like a bad moment. Less like, she's like, Oh,

that was, that was weird. You're out. Um, it's interesting to me. Like, it just seems like, um,

I don't know. I've seen a lot of people hang around longer than, uh, as an audience. You're like, why is that person still there? And she really is like pretty good at just knowing that something is not vibing or not working. She also does it in a way,

because clearly there is the TV element, right? Yeah, of course. I call Chris Skippy, by the way. But Skippy would have been gone forever ago if it weren't for TV, but whatever. That's true. But what she does do really well, I think better than maybe anyone before her

is that she doesn't just look annoyed and like try to get through like the awkward interaction with whoever it is she has that time to like ask them tough questions and lean into them and she's

very like we'll get into it later but like oh by the way, I fucking told you about Martin, everybody. I fucking told you. I fucking told you. I had a roller coaster version with Martin. But yeah, my initial thing was right too. But I was really fooled in the middle there.

Yeah, I was wrong about Will. I was wrong about Romeo. But I fucking was right about Martin. The Miami came out. Yeah. We'll wrong about Will. I was wrong about Romeo. But I fucking was right about Martin. The Miami came out. Yeah. We'll get into it. We'll break it down. We'll get into it.

I also, you know, I think an interesting thing that I think has started. I don't know which season it started, but I think it's a newer thing in the Bachelor or Bachelorette franchise which is like this this sort of group like herd protection of the bachelor or bachelorette where they're like this person's bad we gotta all yes like get him out or get her it's very it's an interesting newish thing because it used to be a lot of people were just like oh we'll just focus on our own thing let the villain crash and burn on their own and now people were like we gotta warn you. And instead of having it be like a one-on-one where one person says, I don't think this guy is good for you.

And then they pit them together. It's like the whole house comes together to get rid of a poisonous element. Yeah. I mean, I think to a certain degree that's happened a lot. But I think, yeah, you're definitely... There's always been subtle differences between the bachelorette and the bachelor.

Yeah. And I think one of those differences, the bachelorette is like, and maybe it's like men's old fashioned instinct to want to be protectors and et cetera, et cetera. Also like they don't want to look like assholes. So it's,

there's definitely that element. And yeah. And like, like the bachelorette definitely gets a longer leash of being like nope get the fuck out than the bachelor because when it's the bachelor

it's like give her a chance you know like a little bit of that and like we love hating on like average men on this show and it's you know in a different way. So we kick things off. We're on to Minneapolis,

the great state of 10,000 lakes. Allie, super excited because she's from Minneapolis. Also, just a little known fact, Wisconsin has more lakes than Minnesota. I never would have guessed that. It's actually by quite a bit, actually.

10,017. But Minnesota is actually closer to 20,000. Fun fact. Wow. Whatever. Wisconsin has... I hate Wisconsin. It's a quick Google search, Elliot.

Is there a Minnesota-Wisconsin rivalry? Well, yeah. In some sense. Well, yeah, in some sense. Well, football, certainly. Oh, football, right. We really hate the Vikings in Packer Nation. I don't think there's much love for Packer fans over in the great state of Minnesota.

This says, yeah, we have about 3,000 less than Wisconsin. Wow, 3,000. Well, California produces more dairy than Wisconsin. Wow, 3,000. Well, California produces more dairy than Wisconsin and we're the dairy state. So, you know. I did not know that. Outdated identities of our states. I don't know.

Anyways, we're in Minnesota. It's like they were there probably like August-ish. It's got to be hot. Yeah, because like, there's definitely seasons in Minnesota. And thankfully, it's a nice time to be in Minnesota.

As we suspected, why we wondered why Nate and Joe weren't getting one-on-ones, well, you're going to have your favorites or some of your favorites have a one-on-ones, well, you're going to have your favorites or some of your favorites have a one-on-one where you grew up.

The place that's the most special to you. Not in some random hotel in the middle of a desert. It's like, who do you want to run around naked with in a desert and who do you want to introduce to your best friends? Exactly.

Not always the same person. not always the same person we kick things off with uh joe i'm going back and forth between is michelle gonna pick joe or nate and even in this episode i kept going back and forth because she's really giving us clues of each, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how she'll be able to choose. Or if someone else will come.

But she seems to have a real genuine connection with both of them. With both of them. Yeah. And so she takes Joe. Twins game. Sports. they throw out the first pitch that was a nice toss by michelle i i oh yeah i don't think people appreciate what it's like to throw from a mound on a professional baseball field around a crowd that was quite one shot that was you get one shot you can't you know like i don't know if you get

practice before but you know but nevertheless get a little bit of practice but here you go here's one pitch and it could leave your hand wrong and then you're the person who had the embarrassing pitch we've seen world-class athletes of different sports throw some truly devastating throws. So props to Michelle. Yeah, baseball's not even her sport. Not even her sport. So she takes them to the high school, whatever. Obviously, that makes sense.

Very much Joe and Michelle. What did Michelle say? And I think it was about Joe and Michelle what did Michelle say and I think it was about Joe and not Nate but it was just like you don't say that about people that you god fuck what did she say was it about her him

being like her dad and brother she just said something where it was like there's a difference between like I have fun with them and hanging out versus like I can see it. She was in her mind visualizing a relationship with Joe

right? And we get on these one-on-ones fuck I wish we really had the quote. Was it the thing about like didn't she say something about Mr. And Mrs. Minneapolis? And she's like, you could see it, right?

Like she, because there is that thing. Yes. It was right around that time. It was right around. It was like Mr. Basketball, Miss Basketball. Like, cause they both had that weird title or she was a runner up in high school, which I didn't even know was a thing. And then she's like, you can just see it.

Right. They just go together. Yeah. It was around that point. Thank you. And she said something very like, she's very good with her words. She says something kind of beautiful.

And I'm just thinking to myself, having been in Michelle's shoes before, there's people like you think that are attractive, you have a good time with, you're like, you're cool. And like, you have respect. But then there's people you're just like taking the time to visualize a life with them.

And that's a big deal in that world where you're trying to like, not only like you're falling in love, but trust your emotions and feelings enough where you could be like, I'm going to take a chance at trying to have a life with you. And she is doing that with Joee which i i think is something you should like pay attention to versus like when you know when she talks to rodney right like do you see a clear connection and she's like it's so easy to talk with you it's so easy i have so much fun with you you make me laugh these are are important and relatable things, right? Not to discount our time with Rodney.

No, I love Rodney. But you can kind of say that about anyone as well, right? You can like anyone you don't want to marry, you can be like, it's really easy to talk to you. I just, I enjoy being around Rodney. Let's invite Rodney to the party because he's enjoyable to be around versus like... I find myself thinking

about waking up next to you and going and our kids and going. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. So clearly, I think there's a hint there. She clearly likes... We know she likes Joe, but I'm just like, is it Joe or is it Nate? Is it Joe or is it Nate? I'm watching this day thinking,

it's Joe. But we'll get to the Nate later. I love Joe. Thank you. That's all I have to say. I root for them when they're together. I think they're like Mr. and Mrs.

whatever the title. I think it was Mr. and Mrs. Mr. and Ms. Basketball. Yeah, they each won it at separate times. She was second. She didn't win. times she was second she was second yes she didn't win oh she didn't win okay okay but she was close she was no she's really good at basketball they never show her missing a shot they never do i also i mean i noticed in her yearbook she's number 23 which is like a very intense number like that's michael jordan's number right so she you you have to really like

if you're gonna have if you're gonna choose that number you have to really bring it and it seems like she really i think she brought it yeah she's like yes i i've earned this number so many things can cause stress in our lives for me recapping the bachelorette for other people it might be money problems, relationship problems. Maybe you have a fear of breaking up with someone. It doesn't really matter what it is. Sometimes we just get it out and talk through our problems.

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slash V-I-A-L-L. That is N-O-O-M.com slash V-I com slash v i a l l so we get to the nighttime portion of the date and here's what i really liked about this is that it started off like oh here we go former bat former athletes you know big sad story is i don't get to play sports anymore. Like that's how it started. We have seen this type of like profession of like sad story before. And most of the time, in fact, almost every other time that I can remember, it just goes something like, I like sports.

My whole identity was wrapped up in sports. It's thought I, I always like was going to like be a professional. Now I'm not. And I've struggled. And you're like, oh, bummer. You have to welcome to the world, buddy. That's how it comes across.

But Joe takes a huge step forward. And I think I thought it was really beautiful and we should give Joe an immense amount of credit for the way he talked about it and went so much deeper. Because we look at Joe about this beautiful, good-looking guy.

He has it all, right? And even before that, he was like Mr. Basketball. He played Division I college hoops, like whatever. He got injured. college hoops like whatever you got injured and we it would be very easy for a lot of people to just not feel sorry for him um right and um and yet he talked about depression and he talked about you're just like wow i can he made the audience feel what it would be like to lose all that and what it would feel and his fears and even at the risk of people judging him and at the risk of people not empathizing with his situation. It took a lot to talk about that stuff and really kind of

let us in and his world and his feelings. And I thought it was like really a great thing for Joe. It was, I was sitting there and I was so proud of Joe, just especially because he's a, you know, he talked about that, you know, he's sort of introverted. His dad didn't show a lot of emotion.

So he's kind of gone that way too, but he really wants to try to be vulnerable for Michelle. And then he really did. He didn't come back. And it's different than watching someone who talks about this kind of stuff all the time and has you know the more you tell a painful story the more you can the easier it gets to tell and at a certain point sometimes you can kind of package it up and it's like here it is and it's it was clear that he hadn't talked about it that much before but that he'd been working on it and getting help and and um and yeah like you said he really brought you to that place of, especially for a quiet person who that was, that was his whole identity and, and having to, you know, let that go. And, and not knowing who you are or what the, what your future held or, or any of that. I just was like, I was really,

I was really moved by it. And then I thought at the end, he said, I think, did he say, or did Michelle say something about like the best things in life or things that are

on the other side of fear? Oh my God. That was, yes, thank you for, it was like, that was amazing. Oh my God,

I thought about that. Bursting with tears. Yes, a lot of bursting with tears, but I thought about it for like 10 minutes and that's, I've always said like, I feel like, you know, when I do my that yes but I thought about it for like 10 minutes and that's I've always said like I feel like you know when I do my questions

I try to like say things like that or something that sounds like that or articulate that thought but the way Joe said it or and he got it who did he get it from like a uncle or a coach or a dad or something like that yeah but yes

like what like it was like good things are on the other side of fear like special things or and that's such a beautiful thing i mean yeah like that's alone like a great takeaway for this entire season we could end the season right now and be like just you know anyone who's watching great are on the other side of fear. And that's so true. And I also think that his whole journey after that date, it kind of colored for me retroactively his sort of ghosting of her earlier. I was like, oh, you know, because when he explained it to her, I did believe him.

He said that something was going on and he just didn't, he just didn't deal with it. And I do see in him the, the, the desire to grow, to not act like that anymore, to like, you know,

to sort of be more accountable and, and, and, and, and be less afraid, you know, we can all get kind of overwhelmed by anxieties and sort of drop out. And now here he is showing up and being like,

this is so scary for me, which is also so scary to admit ever that you're scared of anything. But to say that and to then push through it is like, so awesome. Yeah, totally. And yeah, like we've talked about this. It wasn't necessarily actually ghosted

michelle provided context but nevertheless to your point like had martin had michelle dm martin they responded a couple times and then martin doesn't reply i'm like this mother this fuck boy is just like he just can't you know michelle's too deep on the roster he's just putting her on the bench right right? Right. But with Joe, and when we met Joe, we didn't know if that was Joe. No, we didn't know. Here's this tall, good-looking guy.

Star athlete. This guy could easily be Martin, right? Yeah. But as we've gotten to know Joe more and more, he's clearly... You can't judge Joe... you can't judge a book by its cover you can't judge joe by how he presents himself early on if you just like stood there saw a picture of joe and just listed his resume you know you would be like oh there's like a 70 chance he's a fuck boy right like rum haven hey no matter the time of year no matter the weather outside you can have

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I love this one-on-one with Joe and Michelle. We've been waiting for this date. And it's interesting because then Michelle talks about how much Joe reminds her of her dad in a lot of circles. And I think, is it more common for... Do you think it's more common for women to be attracted to men that remind them of their fathers or women that remind people of their mom? Because I think my mom is amazing and the most wonderful person in the world,

but I've never dated anyone like my mom. I think it depends on your relationship. I have a close relationship with my mom. Anyway, but it is a thing right like it seems to be more of a thing for women to date men who remind them of their fathers in a lot

of ways so when she says that I'm like oh shit okay and you can see how they balance each other out like Joe being the quiet reserved Michelle more outspoken right now she does need someone who can check her and she needs her equal, but Joe might do it differently. And he might do it in a place where it's behind closed doors,

where he's comfortable with them and they can have a conversation. And he's not necessarily going to be Nate, the life of the party, fun guy. Well, maybe that's an energy that Michelle understands. If that's the dynamic that her mom and dad have, maybe she can, maybe that would be something that she could relax into and not go, what is he thinking? He's not talking.

Oh yeah. This is my dad sometimes needed some quiet time, you know, or whatever it is. And, um, yeah, I don't know.

I just, I, I like, I really love. So you hope right now you hope that she ends up with Joe. You know, I, you know. I just, I like, I really love Jo. So you hope, right now, you hope that she ends up with Jo? You know, I have different feelings because there's also a lot of the, she does have a pretty great group right now. And, you know, I like a lot of the guys, but there's just something about,

you know, something that I think is always very attractive in human beings and people in general is like when they've done some work on themselves and sometimes people um and like people like joe have had it forced upon them like he he had a choice whether to exit this earth and or or stay in a place of depression or really like work through it and And he thankfully, you know, decided to do that. And I think that's just,

I think that's so cool. It's like, it's a, it's a different level of, of your own thinking when you've let a certain, you've let the person that you thought you were kind of die and you've emerged from the, from the ashes.

It's interesting when I think about Nate and Joe. They're very different guys. I think a relationship with both, you can see a relationship with both. You can see why she likes them. And I'm not just talking about their looks, but you can see the chemistry. You can see the connection.

You can see what they would bring out in Michelle and vice versa. And yet, very different right so like you know with Nate I think she would be able to date a guy for the first time who you know is outgoing and fun and I think you know especially in social settings would not make would allow Michelle to like kind of spread her wings more because she doesn't have to necessarily like work the room as much i think as she had to in the past because like nate's such a presence and i think with with joe she would have to do a little bit more of that heavy lifting you know him being more

introverted but at the same time you know nate hasn't done necessarily a great job he's so like chill and like he kind of has like like last episode was kind of this too cool for school energy and i think you know joe has shown this willing to really joe has shown this willingness to open up and i think michelle really connects with that and likes that and that hasn't really done that yet i mean not to get too far ahead but it it was Michelle opening up to Nate, not the other way around. And so it seems like early on, she might get that emotional connection with Joe that she's not getting with Nate. Yeah, I definitely am interested to see more of Nate. I feel like he's clearly a good person.

I thought Chris's assessment of that statement was just totally off the mark. I didn't find, I didn't, it didn't seem like arrogant or like I got this in the bag at all. To me, it seemed like I, I really trust the,

the connection. And, and, um, you know, I think, I don't think she would send me home without having a one-on-one. Not that he would say that either,

but I feel like that was sort of the thought process. We'll get into it. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt on this show. Me too. I'm going to be really, I'm once again going to be tough on Clayton. I'm tough on Martin. These guys seem like

nice guys. I don't know them. They seem cool. I truly fucking hate Chris. And I try, and I say this trying to hold back my reservations, understanding there's an edit, understanding you don't get to see anything. We talk a lot about

on the show, listen, if you're hearing a voiceover, if you're feeling a certain way about a character while music's really intense, be careful about your assessment. But Chris is giving us these, he's repeating the same thing over and over and we're seeing the words come out of his mouth

that are not just quick sound bites, but this expectation that Chris has of that he deserves something from Michelle just because he thinks he did something for her is just the worst kind of person. It's the entitlement. And it's also the, like, yeah. I mean, it's also the sort of the petulance

of being on the group date and being like she never came up to me one time and it's like well this is you know people read energy and you're you're clear you were clearly upset from the beginning that that she wasn't like thank you for saving me from Nate well it's also like bizarre and then yeah we'll just jump into the group date like talking about Chris but like it's a group date. This is the show. There's one Bachelorette. There's a bunch of you. You have to make time.

It's fascinating. Certainly, it's a two-way street. We get into these types of conversations on the show, especially when someone feels validated. It's just like, well, I want to know they like me. God, I'm shit. Where is Chris getting this like in what world does chris think he's in a position like the hubris coming from chris is almost like it's almost like just fascinating it's like where do you get off thinking that she's gonna make time for you like most of the people

are pretty self-aware it's just like hey you, you'll get people in that world being like, I have a great connection with Michelle and you didn't get to see our moments. But they know. It's like, I have a great connection with Michelle, but if five other guys weren't here. It's just like, and they're chumming it up with each other. But Chris is

talking like, it's wild. He's surprised. Even that, I mean, I know it's a different episode, but even that speaking for her, I mean, it comes up in this one, too, but that was already kind of like a bizarre

moment where she came down and he was like, all right, everybody, before she says anything... He had her a drink. It was like, Michelle, I got this. It was fucking fucking wild before we really lean in to chris though uh we have the group date uh nate find out like we get i was shocked that nate got the 101 i thought i did think michelle was gonna like make him sweat a little bit more and despite it being despite it being minnesota but it makes sense knowing

that what the date was. If you really like a guy, but he makes you nervous because he brings up maybe some red flags or some guy who's like four-foot-nothing warns you about one of your main interests, I understand that

you want to get your friends to read on him. That makes sense. So we find out Nate's going to get the one-on on them. Like that makes sense. Um, so we find out like, uh, Nate's going to get the one-on-one. They take him to, uh, the Minnesota Vikings stadium and like,

ha ha, the football team, like, Oh, we're going to be football players, but like, Nope, it's going to be Vikings guys in here.

Just like, well, I'm sure again, Clayton, nice guy. I'm sure. Yes. I can sure. Yes. I can't look forward to meeting him and interview him and etc.

But like, truly, we're just waiting. What the fuck? It's like, we only see Clayton when they're doing an incredibly athletic task. And we only see him light up when he realizes he might get the opportunity to kick the shit out of someone. You know, that's the only time he lights up. And so with a look on his face, when the Vikings, not the Minnesota football players, but like actual Vikings came out, it was like. He gave a look that I kind of saw Clayton where it's like he was at like career day in elementary school and on career day it was like all right what are your first three choices

and he was like okay I want to be a professional football player obviously that's number one he came he made it he didn't stick long but incredible feat by Clayton to make it as far as he did and number two on his list was Viking. An actual Viking. And it's like, if I can't become a football player, I want to be a Viking. But unfortunately... He's like, I'm bringing back Vikings. Yeah, there's no money in Vikings being an actual Viking these days. So he's like,

number three is going on the bat charrette. Right? And then he found himself on the bat charrette being like, okay, my third choice, not so bad. And then the Vikings came out and he was like, oh my God, I get to do on a football field. I get to be a Viking. And this is the greatest day of all time.

That was the look on his face. He was very excited. I do have to say that. I mean, you know, obviously we don't see a lot of it, but I did clock a moment after he won his arm wrestling thing against Martin, I think. He gave him a little like... Some of the other guys were like,

Yeah, I won. I beat you. And he was like, good game. He was the only person I saw in that whole little section who had that sort of sportsmanship thing, which I appreciated. Yeah, he seems like a nice guy. But also, he's twice the size of everyone. I know, he's huge. Yeah. He seems like a nice guy, but also he's twice the size of everyone. I know, he's huge.

He's huge. We know he's the next Bachelor and I'm not critical of Clayton as the human. It's more of the show. It's just like, this is why. I know he wasn't your first choice and it's not Clayton's fault, but you're choosing to only

show moments of him showing personality when he gets to be athletic. Oh, well there, I was going to say, I actually had a moment cause I, I remember, you know,

hearing that he was going to be the bachelor and, and then going, Oh really? And being sort of surprised. And then, um, and then I've been like really kind of lasered in on trying to be like, what's,

what's, who is this guy? What's going on? And there was a moment after the whole thing where he was kind of holding Michelle's hand and his hand was kind of shaking a little bit and it was a little bit awkward. And I was like, oh, who's this?

I want to know who this guy is. Who's the guy who's this giant and very handsome and gets this sort of nervous. I don't know. The more anybody can open up and show me who they are, the more excited I get to know them or root for them.

Totally. I haven't had a moment where I've... I mean, he hasn't. It's not like he's had a one-on-one yet. Well, either has Brandon, and we feel like we're going to know Brandon, and he's... know that's the thing too it's just like so you know clayton gets you know more we we for the first time see like a conversation between him and michelle yeah i think that was he has a great smile and he looks very nice right right but like the

conversation was nothing it was just like you know you've been in this position before and I'm nervous. Yeah. And then it was all very surface level. The next conversation she has is with Brandon and he just swoops in there and is so charismatic. It's just that it's not Clayton's fault per se because maybe Michelle is clearly just not into him. There's no connection there.

I don't. Yeah. But he is being just outshined by so many of these guys. Like, okay, Joe, the other athlete, right? Like Joe, like true athlete, incredible accomplishments in the athletic space. He told what could have been a very surface level conversation as we talked about like really dug deep right so yeah

why can't like maybe she ends up with Joe but like that's what I want out of like my bachelor like I want someone who's going to be able to like talk about like and dig deeper and not just be the nice guy who's grateful to be there and you know...

I think that's the thing. Like, usually... I mean, also, I think this is maybe the earliest in a season that I found out who the Bachelor is. Yeah, I think... So I like... You know, usually by the point you find out, you've seen them be heartbroken and you're like,

Oh, I know this person a little bit. I root for them. And I guess I just don't know him well enough to be excited about that. It's just weird. I guess when they were editing this all together, they didn't know he was going to be in the next episode. No, no, that's a thing. They did.

So then that's even weirder. I don't feel like they're setting him up. I mean, again, yeah, like you said, he seems like a nice guy they have the ability like I know enough about like the post process where like they definitely edit it in advance but they can make changes as late as the Friday

before like I know that to be the case so if the guy if you know a guy if you're filming a season with this guy and airing a season before, you would think, yes, that's kind of been my whole point. These are his best moments. Right, right.

Yeah. Like, this must be all they have. Because. Yeah. I don't know. And it's just like. Yeah. I mean, I hope at some point he opens up and they show us what his drive is,

what his dreams are, where his pain is. You know, all these... Because the only thing we see get him excited is when they're like, here, go hit this guy. Exactly. And he gets to do it and then be like, hey, good job, little man you know yeah yeah yeah

that's true me strong you know like i want to see more me too i don't know maybe we will maybe well he's running out of time because i think we know he's not top four and even this group rose that he's got like this was a show rose. We got love roses and we got show rose. This was a show rose. You can't give Brandon his third group date rose. Joe and Nate aren't on this date. Olu?

He got a group date rose last week, back to back. It's like you could, but fuck it. Let's just give it to Clayton. Yeah, exactly. exactly he worked hard it's very elementary school teacher like kind of making sure it's fair yeah she just like yeah michelle just be like all right like you know yeah let's give it to this guy yeah she did do the the fake out uh like you know i feel like uh katie or one of the other ones started to do that thing where at the end of the group date, she's like,

Jeff, you did this. Steven, you did this. And I'm giving the rose to... And for the first time, Michelle's always been like, this is for you. And this time she's like, Brandon. Anyway. That's just something they always do. And then they edit

around it. Oh, I see. All right. See, these are the secrets. Yeah. Because you typically will go around the room and compliment everyone. Oh, nice. Be like, and you showed up. You were here too.

You were here too. I appreciate it. And then sometimes you start with the person you're going to give a rose to. Sometimes you mix it up. But definitely the idea is you go around the room and you want to give everyone a reason to think they're going to get it. So when you give it to someone else, you get that reaction of disappointment. And all they need is a split second to capture that disappointment.

Because even if your first half of the second is like, fuck, and you're bummed. And then you're like, you know what? All right. Good for him. I'm just going to be a good sport about that. They take that little second. They could choose to only show that quarter second of you being like, fuck.

Yeah. I know. I always forget that. What are you going to do? Chris, again, he's just... What are you going to do? Chris, again, he's just... I'm blown away by his hubris and the arrogance about...

It's easy to make fun of someone like Chris because you're just like, in what world do you think you have a chance, buddy? But then on top of that, it's just, again, like you said, the entitlement. And I hate to, and I hate to also use the word hyperbolic because I got roasted from it.

I was saying the word hyperbolic a lot last season. So like, trying to say it. I think this is the first time I've said it this season. I've honored. You waited until this episode. I'm pretty sure. No,

because I'm pretty sure you gave that exact same warning when you've done it before. I'm going to use it again. I'm going to use it again. I think pretty sure you gave that exact same warning when you've done it before. I'm going to use it again. I'm going to use it again. I think Chris is kind of a bad guy in life. Well, it's interesting when you see that thing of like... And we've seen it before where someone is walking around. It looks like they're walking around talking to all the guys or all the ladies and being like, I just haven't gotten time.

Meanwhile, on that same date, you see almost there was like a montage of people being like, we don't have a lot of time, so I'm going to interrupt. Everyone was just interrupting each other. And Chris didn't even seem to try. He was complaining about it, but without doing any sort of action to solve the problem. And then he really seemed... He really seemed genuinely shocked when the date was over. He's mouthing, wow. Oh, that was my favorite moment. I think it was Brandon. He was like, Chris, you've been smacking your lips a lot. You got something to

say? Yeah. I love that. That was great, Brandon. I love that he said that. That was fantastic. A couple of things I want to point out that you said. When you said everyone, they showed that montage. It's always funny because depending on what the show wants to do, that's every date, every season. Right, exactly. They're just like, hey, if you want to go talk to her, go talk to her. Sometimes they show that and sometimes they don't.

Sometimes they make it look like you're inconsiderate of everyone's time and sometimes it's just like this is everyone taking the initiative like right that happens every fucking day right so the fact that the fact that Chris like that's why I think he's like why I think he might actually just be a shit

human and I hate to and we still don't know but like again you know how on this show every season someone does something outrageous where there's always we'll get dms or people asking it's like is he a paid actor and and the thought is there is no way having this show been on for so long and clear and chris clearly watches fucking show. Like you can't convince me otherwise if he's seen it, right? Yeah. And then you think to yourself, why would anyone with half a brain

who is aware of how the show works go into this show and do some of the things that they're willing to do? You know, you ask yourself, how, why? And what I think it is, is like in that world, it's such a pressure cooker that what ultimately happens is you just end up, you can only fake it for a little while and sometimes you just end up being yourself and pressure situations. And I think that's what we're seeing with Chris and Chris has shown to be someone who thinks when he does what would if he does a favor for someone regardless of that if that favor is asked or needed or anything that he feels owed and you owe him and you better step up. And, and even in, in relationships with women,

he will give that same energy to his partners. So if like I, Chris looks like a type of guy in a relationship, you better not disappoint. And yeah, maybe he's just an asshole about it. But, but that,

that weird thing of like, I mean, it, it reminds me of like, um, I don't know any number of like, I mean, it, it reminds me of like, um, I don't know any number of movies, like cable guy or, or fatal attraction or this thing where it's like,

Hey, I'm just doing you a favor. And then it's like, you never paid me back for the favor that I did. I was like, well, I never, I didn't agree on like a back and forth.

You were, you did something. And then you, you had an expectation of what i owed you for that but i never entered into that agreement that agreement was something that you entered into in your head and so now you're like coming to collect but i never signed the contract that you're 100 yeah so it it creates like a an alternate reality that he's just spiraling in his head going, Wait a second. I did this for her. And I feel bad. That's a dangerous mentality to have cultivated over your life.

Yeah. I mean, it's certainly going to lead to a lot of disappointment, but it's also potentially dangerous for people who you think owe you. Exactly. Exactly. At best case scenario, you're just going to enter into a bunch of toxic relationships and your expectation will never meet your reality. And then how you communicate to your partner will always be accusatory and

put them on the defense. Yeah. And you'll never be wrong. you'll just be waiting for them to validate your obvious correct view on the world yeah it was just so bizarre and it was so like outrageous his thought process that i was thinking to myself like i know they don't hire actors but fuck it. Maybe this is the first time. Who the fuck would say this? By the way, who does Chris look like? There's some actor that he looks like and is driving you up the wall.

Yes, you're right. I was thinking the same thing too. And the closest thing that I could think of was like, at a certain point, well, there was a moment where he was talking to Casey and Casey to me looks like if Harrison Ford and Dax Shepard kind of had a crossover guy. Yeah. There's something very Harrison Ford-y about him.

And there was a moment where Chris was standing next to him. And he sort of reminded me of Mark Hamill, who is a genuinely lovely and decent person by all. So I hate to do it, but it looked like it was like Mark Hamill. But then it was like maybe maybe one of the Menendez brothers or something. There was like something like it's been crazy. I like I like sort of I can't even think of like what the actor is in that I'm thinking of. But it's I haven't been able to do it. But I was wondering if there was some

consensus out there, someone could free me from my hell. Is he almost Jake Gyllenhaal-esque? In what way? He doesn't have the beard. He'd do a side-by-side comparison of their faces. Similar structure. I mean, despite what Jake Gyllenhaal is going through this week, Jake Gyllenhaal

I think is objectively one of the more beautiful men in Hollywood. And I don't feel the same about Chris S. You think they look alike? But is that the personality? I read off the bat, I'm like, yeah, sure, he's a handsome guy.

But I wasn't like, nope, front runner. Right, right, right. If Jake Gyllenhaal got out of limo... But I think they're, they have similar, similar budget. Chris, Chris reminds me of the type of person

who would like buy you a $5 Tito's and soda at 9 p.m. and then circle back in the same bar at 1 a.m. saying, should I grab us an Uber?

Like just like, expect that you're going home with him because he bought you a drink. Yeah. If you're not gonna, if you're not to come in the Uber with me, that drink was about $10.

Yeah, he's going to Venmo request you. Or like the type of guy where you show up in a group and all of a sudden they invite some friends, maybe some lady friends, and they order a bunch of food and you just stop by to say hi,

but you already ate dinner. And then at the end of dinner, they insist that everyone splits the bill. Yeah. And you had two fries. You didn't have anything. You're just there. But they want to impress the women that they invited. So they look like big spenders by ordering a bunch of food.

But behind the table, like, hey guys, so we all split this? Yeah, we're all doing this, right? That's Chris I've met so many Chris's before yeah and I hate him in case you haven't noticed Nate gets his one-on-one obviously and I

feel for Nate too because he didn't have the best episode last week and again this is a weird world like of trying to open up some people are better at it than others we can't necessarily fault Nate certainly right now it's a weird world of trying to open up. Some people are better at it than others. We can't necessarily fault Nate, certainly right now. It's a weird thing to be randomly... You know you don't want to get called out. You know you don't want to tie down your back in this world.

So when it happens, even if you did nothing, there's a look of guilt or like, what the fuck on your face, right? And that's what happened to Nate last week. Could he have handled it better? Sure. But nothing he did or didn't do last week could he have handled it better sure but like nothing he did or didn't do last week was all that

like oh like watch out for Nate he's a bad guy right but clearly and it did run me the wrong way because like and what I mean by this like I felt for him because I had I related to Nate being like feeling like he has to defend him like there's it sucks to have to defend

yourself when you didn't do anything yeah even taking the time to defend yourself sounds like you might be guilty and he finally he finally said what i was hoping he would say last week when he was talking to michelle's friends which is like he owned he said. I said this thing and I said it because like, I'm confident in our relationship, you know? And he said that to Michelle's friends, which I thought was like, that's what he should have said last week, as opposed to be like making it about what Chris said, et cetera, et cetera. But that's kind of the point. It's like, it takes time to like find your word sometimes in this, in this world. For sure. And I, yeah, I thought, um, I mean, it was funny. I, I did,

I did expect from like, especially later thinking about what Michelle seems to have gone through in her last relationship, which is, which was awful. Um, you know, her friends were like, we're here to ask the tough questions. And then there, and then I, I was like, I, I, I kind of wanted them to go harder, the friends. But I think Nate is so clearly charming and he just seems like such a good guy so immediately that I think the friends were like, all right, you're fine. You guys like each other. That's

good enough. Yeah. So I thought it was... He did well with the friends. Her friends... Yeah. I was impressed by her friends' level of comfort in this world. They came ready. They've seen the show clearly. Yeah. And it's a tough thing.

So then you're like, okay, Joe versus Nate. Nate got to meet the friends. And I was like, oh, Raven got to meet my family and I knew Raven wasn't going to be my person even when I was like, yeah, Raven can meet my mom and my dad and my sisters. Does that mean

he's the runner up or maybe Michelle still doesn't genuinely know yet and maybe it's between. I mean, we're this far into the season and if Michelle doesn't have a clear front runner it's between... We're this far into the season, and if Michelle doesn't have a clear frontrunner in her mind, she would be one of the only ones.

Despite all the, like, I didn't know until the day of. I wonder if there's something... Because Nate is so... He's really put together. He, he's really funny and easy to be around and kind. I wonder if there's a thing of like, you know, I feel like you bring your friends around

when you're like, my body is telling me one thing. My heart is telling me something, but do I, am I having like the blind spot that I always have when I see a fun funny cool handsome guy like am I missing some red flags that maybe you guys can pick up on? I feel like she doesn't know him

as well she trusts herself less almost yeah I think so I think it's because that chemistry is so strong with them. Yeah. We've heard Michelle talk about wanting her equal, not wanting to want...

being the one who carries the relationship. Yeah. But yeah, the juxtaposition between Joe and Nate is developing into an interesting one because of the different personalities. Clearly, there's a connection with Nate that radiates more than anyone different personalities. Clearly, there's a connection with Nate that radiates more than anyone else. With Joe,

I think there's a quiet connection, an intimate connection, but it doesn't necessarily pop off the screen like it does with Nate as much. But to your point, like you said, maybe Nate's the guy that she was... We talk about

the spark and how that could be a red flag. That's maybe your intuition telling you point like you said maybe nate's the guy that she was oh you know we talk about like you know the spark and how that could be a red flag that's maybe your intuition telling you like you're it's triggering your ego being like i want i want this person to like me i want this person to validate me and that's nate here's this charming guy who's charismatic and with joe she's pulling a little bit more out of joe yeah and with nate she is i wonder if nate's the, she's pulling a little bit more out of Joe. Yeah. And with Nate, she is... I wonder if Nate's the guy she's always dated because here she is opening up to Nate. Well, if Nate's not going to open up to me, I'm going to open up to him. Because either way, we're going to get an emotional moment on this date.

Yeah, exactly. Well, and you're probably not going to get the emotional moment from the guy who's like, I'm a big kid. I just want to have fun. Not have it be too serious. Which I'm not trying to say as a slam against Nate. I think it's very important to maintain your connection to fun and childishness, but then also be able to kind of, you know, when she told him that story, I felt like he really was listening. You know, he wasn't like scared to go deep. And that was, that was pretty, I mean, that sounded awful. I felt so bad for Michelle when she'd been through that. It's like when it's affected your literal health. Yeah. You were going to say something? your literal health. Physical health, yeah. You were going to say something? No, I was just going to say

the debate between Joe and Nate and her potentially seeing red flags in Nate, but them still having an undeniable connection really brought me back to JoJo not knowing if she should pick Jordan because she was like, Jordan's the guy I've always dated and that has not gone well for me in the past.

So shouldn't I be trying to change that? Right, right, exactly. She's having the debate with herself. It's a relatable feeling. She even said later, if I get heartbroken at this point, it's on me because she's willing to just keep moving forward. Sure. Yeah. It's becoming...

The show is always the most interesting when the lead is really into two people and you see the back and forth. And so I think we'll continue to see that but back to michelle's story yeah i look forward to when we have michelle in uh this week i look forward to asking her about uh getting more information and what you know clearly she even before i've heard this story michelle you know referenced a little bit on matt season was

clearly a woman who you could tell had been through life and she's had her ups and downs and she is someone who has chosen to learn from those moments and be better for it. And I love, you know, I can't wait to like talk to Michelle about some of those things that, uh, have, have brought her to who she is today. And obviously we got some more insight to, yeah, like how you could be physically, you can get yourself physically sick. And like, I'd really be curious of what Michelle, not only day and obviously we got some more insight so yeah like how you could be physically you could get yourself physically sick and like i'd really be curious of what michelle not only i'm really curious what michelle's learned about herself because there is an element of like she must have saw some of these red flags prior to that point but chose to stay in it for whatever reason

and finally she chose to leave you know and what was some of those insecurities or things going on her head that made her choose to ignore her actual body saying this is toxic for you yeah you know uh and did it sound like that even after all of that he left her right when she right i think i think that was she was like at my sickest he yeah yeah that's right and then she realized that he was toxic so it was even so she never actually so it's even more dangerous because you you know someone leaves you and then you you slowly on your own go wow that was actually really toxic and bad and i didn't do enough to get out of it it would be even scarier to re-enter something where you go, I'm not very good at, I'm very good at like sticking it out. always been successful. Part of being an athlete is overcoming adversity and work through challenges.

She's a teacher. She's constantly helping people. Real susceptible to that fixer mentality and relationships of being like, all right, we have a problem. Okay, I'm not going to panic. My parents taught me there's highs and lows in relationships. And these are all great things to learn. But in the wrong relationship, especially when we're younger, we try to apply all these like life lessons instilled by our parents and what we've done in like our, you know, in school and athletics. And we can get ourselves and stay in relatively toxic environments just because of our commitment to fixing things and not quitting and et cetera, et cetera. And I certainly, I relate to that. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Same. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. Yeah. And so I think it's, I think, I think it was, I mean, it was really interesting to hear her share that, but, but I, you know, I wonder talking about Joe and Nate again, and, you know, it's interesting to think that joe has also been

through like a life-changing you know mental shifts and we we haven't heard from nate yet if he has had one of those kind of moments where he had to really step back and go wow i'm in a lot of pain uh a lot of emotional distress and i need to figure out how to work through it and you know what which is not necessarily, it's just not necessary. Maybe he has it right. Like that's the thing. It's like,

maybe he's just like, listen, I've relatively been a blessed individual. I've certainly had some heartbreak or some disappointment, but like, of course, I don't know if it's necessarily, you know,

Joe talked about the thoughts of having suicidal thoughts as it relates to like losing his identity. And we've certainly heard these other stories about parents passing and things like that. Yeah, it's okay to not have a story in this world. You just wonder if

there's... If it's... At the end of the day she'll be like, this person has been through more or actually I like the way that this person feels who hasn't you know like had to again I don't know Nate's story he could have a horrible you know

yeah but I think to your point he's going to get another one on one Nate's going to be here till the end will Nate at least whether he has a sad story or not attempt to connect with Michelle on an emotional level that will show that his willingness to like talk about his,

like you don't have to have like a traumatic experience to have insecurities. No, no. And Nate clearly has insecurities. We don't know what they are. He comes across as someone who like you wouldn't imagine having any, but he does because he's a human being. And I think,

you know, we want to learn what those things are because Michelle is so giving and generous with like her vulnerability that she needs someone, you know, to match that. Like, you know, and so we'll have to see Joe come more out of a shell and be the playful

side so that Michelle doesn't have to feel like, like in the real world, like, are you going to be like dead weight every time I go out? You know? Right. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Are you going to be the aloof kind of thoughtful person, but like, come on, man, let's just loosen up a little, you know? Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. It'll be down to what, yeah, what Michelle, what she prefers.

And I, I don't wanna i love nate too i think he's such a he seems like such a great dude um but yeah but i'm i still haven't let's uh i want to know more let's talk about barton quick truly just loved this moment one because i was like i know there's's this, it's been there. It was there. But what I loved about it is, again, another moment where Michelle, she listens. And so many people, I think, in that conversation would have just like,

oh, do you think I'm high maintenance? No. But a lot of women where I'm from are. And I think there's a lot of people who would take the bait and be like well i'm not you know as michelle could have taken that opportunity of martin like basically generalize generalizing an entire city of women but yeah there's a lot of people who would have used that opportunity to validate themselves to be like oh a whole city of people are high maintenance well once again just here to remind you, I am not. Right.

Exactly. No, she really was like, let's explore this. Oh, I mean, she immediately heard it. I heard it too. But I was like, oh, shit. But she jumped on that. And I love that she did it. Right. And she's like, well, what do you mean by that?

It's a simple question. Like, what makes a woman high maintenance right and what I loved about this is that Martin is so used to saying nothing and getting away with it like it's the he's yeah

he's a fuck boy it's fine not a bad guy he's just he's out there he's out popping bottles and smooth talking people. And he's, I'm sure going to make a great partner someday. But up until this point, he has gotten away with talking a lot, but not saying anything at all. And he finds himself in a sticky situation. And his only go-to is to say a lot, but say nothing at all.

And that doesn't work with someone like Michelle. Yeah. You were going to say something, Amanda? Yeah, I was going to say, I felt like he was trying to hit her with the, you're not like other girls, by being like, all these women are high maintenance, but you're not.

And it was so cool the way Michelle was not distracted by the, oh, you're special, you're different, and held the line. Yeah, she could have taken the bait to validate her ego, which a lot of people would do in that situation and say, no i am amazing i'm the best and she was like no wait uh you just shit on thousands of of my women you know where you live my also well not well not where she lives but yeah it was like no but where he lives it was it came across as like talking shit about an old employer or an ex-girlfriend it was like literally an entire you know he could have what he could

have said is like what do you think if they let's try to think of what's the best response because sometimes you say things eat yourself in trouble yeah but he could have been like you know honestly i shouldn't have i shouldn't have isolated women in that situation. But if you're going to ask me what makes someone high maintenance, I would describe it as, say, someone who expects more than they're willing to give, something like that. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, you see someone who's so generous with what you're willing to give, it makes me want to give more to you or something like that.

But like... Yeah, where he really stepped in it is when he said, generally men don't go into a relationship expected to be taken care of fully. It was like, oh, some do. I would argue that all men go into relationships

with an expectation of being taken care of. It just might not be in the way that, uh, you generally think. It's like emotional labor. Yes. Men want to be emotional labor. They want to,

they, men want to be taken care of. They want to be coddled. They want their feelings to be like often, like just don't, don't tease me, you know, don't,

you know, like we're very, yeah. Like it is a gift for me to You know, don't, you know, like we're very... Yeah. Like it is a gift for me to even share how I'm feeling with you, let alone being like, okay, what are we going to do about this? Yes. All men very much expect to be taken care of in relationships. And anyone who says otherwise, red flag.

I also think generally like there was something in the way he said high maintenance which to me didn't feel like and this is a this is just a wild assumption i actually have no idea but it didn't feel like he had been in love with someone who had just asked so much of him over the course of years that it broke him. It seemed more like someone who had had a couple of women be like, hey, could I have a little bit more? And he was like, whoa, you are. Yeah. This is a lot.

Or like a guy who hasn't really been in love yet or hasn't dug deep and he's out there like having fun with women and to your point is this not his Martin's current priority in life is Martin which again it's fine if when you're in your fuck boy state as long as you're kind of just up front about things you know Martin is here for

again and Martin I will say in his defense he doesn't seem like a person who like can't learn no i know i thought where i feel like this might be like a like martin i believe that martin possibly could watch this back maybe have a woman in his life like a mom or sister or friend and maybe this podcast i don't know and he can go yeah that sounded really that sounded really bad. And then realize I do have a lot of emotional needs and I shouldn't have completely dismissed an entire city of women.

The one thing though, that I will say that, I mean, I hope for that too. And I hope for that for his sake, but there was was but like when you're talking about what happened instead of going oh my gosh I really I started to sort of panic and I was saying things that when I think about I'm like oh that's not what I was trying to say when you hear someone

saying things like there was a miscommunication on her end oh don't get me wrong there was either a miscommunication, which is both people, or you're just saying she hurt you wrong. Oh, he blamed her for sure. Yeah.

And even with talking to the guys later, he's like, I was just fucking saying... No, he doesn't get it yet. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. This wasn't a guy who got nervous, said the wrong thing,

panicked, and didn't know what to say. And then when he removed himself from that intense situation, was like, what the wrong thing, panicked and didn't know what to say. And then when he removed himself from that intense situation was like, what the fuck was I saying? And then immediately find the time to be like, I'm so sorry. Like that was really wrong of me to say.

And I'm realizing now what I said and how that came across. We've all been there. And that is not Martin in this. Martin doesn't know what he said was wrong the hope for martin is that after watching it back months later and have him and then him in like i i'll be honest i just don't know if i get it yet and then someone's saying well let's let's walk through this and him going okay yeah yeah i I mean, we don't even know.

He could wake up the next day and be like, oh my gosh, it was just one bad night. I spiraled all the way down in my confessions and my talks with the other dudes. And in the light of day, this little hangover, maybe I'm remembering that I... Totally. It'll probably be until he yeah because like amanda said i think his he was just like i'm gonna compliment her and this is

gonna go great and again like he doesn't know better because he's like this has worked for exactly everyone else he's talked to at the clubs he's just like you're not like every other girl you're amazing you know like he just he just throws out compliments and yeah most people he's just like you're not like every other girl you're amazing you know like he just throws out compliments and most people he's hanging out with take the bait yeah well and it's but it's an interesting compliment because I feel like it's when you say

you know some other people are high maintenance you're saying my expectations and hopes for you are low maintenance and as soon as you show me that you're anything like when I, when you are like, Hey, you didn't,

you didn't text me for a month. I go, I say, Oh, so you're one of those high maintenance. Exactly. Like, you know,

it's, it's an, it's an out. He's, he's saying what he wants and what he expects. And, you know, it's a way to,

it's like a, a way to plant a little like escape hatch. Like, even if he didn't say it about women, even if he just said, there's a lot of people who are high maintenance. I love that Michelle asked that. Well, what do you mean by high maintenance? Because to your point, that's such a vague thing that someone might have normal and reasonable expectations and boundaries that you have deemed

high maintenance because you don't want to deal with it. So like, I think every relate, like we will talk about it or ask Dick where people like, Hey, do you want to be my boyfriend and girlfriend? I don't know. What does that mean to you? What is like being monogamous and, or what is like going steady? What is like being exclusive? What is like, what are, how much do you want to prioritize the relationship? There's a bunch of questions most people often don't ask. We just do a bunch of assuming. And Michelle's at a point in her life where she's like, well, hold up.

Like, what do you mean? Define high maintenance. Because maybe I am. If my, what I'm asking, I don't think I'm, you know, she's like, initially she's like, oh, I'm low maintenance. But then she was like, well, wait a second. Yeah. What exactly, what exactly, well, wait a second. Yeah.

What exactly? What exactly? What are the defining terms here? It's like, I want to hang out with you twice a week. Well, babe, that's a little much for me. Yeah, exactly. Whoa, I thought you said you were low maintenance. And your goalposts can keep moving.

When you call someone high maintenance and you make them scared of being high... Or if you make that the thing that they have to avoid, then you're setting up a relationship where they do not want to take up space because anything could technically be deemed high maintenance yeah they're scared to ask for anything that they want or need and then so they suppress it and then it comes exploding out and it's definitely i think a trope that uh men used and accused towards women more often and put them on the defense. But men can be incredibly high maintenance.

Oh my God. Incredibly. It is not a gender thing. It is a personality trait. Yeah. In this very episode, Chris was like, I gave you a thing. Yeah, Chris is the example of high maintenance. Yeah.

It's wow. I gave you a thing. Yeah, Chris is the example of high maintenance. Yeah. I believe that in that moment with Martin, if it weren't for a TV show and a certain role, Martin would have got sent home in that moment. She went from whatever chance he had, and maybe it was like,

fantasy suite because he's like sexy um she when she gave martin that rose i think she like i could you could sense a sense of like i hate myself that i'm giving you this rose because i know i want to send you home right now because what you said was so off-putting to myself and women in general that I don't want to further validate you being here. That's how I felt that Michelle felt when she gave me a rose. Exactly. I felt the same. I feel

like she even had a little exhale. Yeah. No, she did. She was just like, she said Martin and she 100% went, Martin. You could tell it was this disappointment. She's like, fuck, I hate being the bachelorette. But they had a weird moment on their one-on-one too in the hot tub.

That was another tense moment too and she gave him a rose then. With Jamie. Yeah, but you're right. But neither of those, even with Jamie, it was like, again, Michelle is not like this dictator where it's like you screw up once you're out she is a thoughtful person who's like hey we all make mistakes I make mistakes I'm not

going to that's a red flag I'm not going to like cancel you right away but like I'm going to I'm going to start paying more attention but I think that this thing that Martin did was a fireable offense and she was like

we need like a week give me a week well it's interesting too because Martin has seemed so confident and that the whole conversation started out of I mean he said it's not like I'm insecure

or something, but that's exactly what it is. When he was saying, he'll get a compliment from her and then she's saying it to all the other guys or something like that. He can say that's not insecure, but that's exactly where it comes from. And that's fine.

Everybody's insecure. But it was interesting to see, oh, he's not necessarily... He portrays himself as like, I evolved i'm a confident you know guy and some of the stuff he said about jamie early on i was like okay i you know i heard him out too and was like that's he seems like he's thought about it and um but yeah but it was it was it's always sort of sad to see someone's insecurities take them over and make them, you know,

do something. Well, I guess I last week, like Martin is the classic bros before hoes type of guy. He will always defend his buddies. I think this is another week of, I think Martin has a overall general opinion of women versus men. Maybe that comes from his upbringing,

his culture. I don't know where it comes from, but he does not have a progressive or evolved point of view of women in general. And, and unfortunately that's a lot of men in our society, but Martin definitely fits the mold of of that kind of behavior that needs he needs to be enlightened i think a little bit well even in the way that

he was talking to the dudes afterwards i was like oh that's the real you yeah like that we saw martin he's like martin revealed himself this episode yeah and he's like yeah fucking i i said this and then she fucking did, I was like, Oh, this is you comfortable when you're like so still and just maintaining eye contact and talking really low. Like that's a thing that you, that you,

I need to talk to women like this. I talked to my, it was working on a man down a couple of weeks. He took off his glasses. A man is all like, yeah, yeah. The nose piercing.

But then no, but that it was truly, I totally agree with Jason. It was when he was talking to his friends that i found the most off-putting because it's like the way these guys are like because you think he's getting he thinks he's getting away with it like he thinks he's so suave and sophisticated and i think that's one of the great satisfactions of the bachelor is like watching men who are like i've gotten away with it or the bachelorette rather i've gotten away with it this whole time and then they get put on camera and it's not a good look.

And that's the thing. You see someone like Nate, for instance, who is talking to Michelle, and he's fun, and he's cool, and he's nice. And then he's talking to the dudes, and he's fun, and he's cool, and he's nice. It's like there's... I think, yeah, you really do get to see when people are like well this is how I talk to women and this is how I talk to dudes there's like a separation

a compartmentalization of like yeah how they see people and how they try to manipulate how they feel about them so we hope that Martin will evolve and this will be a positive experience and I think he's capable of it and you know maybe he's just of it. And, you know,

maybe he's just... How old is Martin? I don't know. He's 29. Oh, okay. So he's young. He's young-ish, but he better catch up, Martin. He got

some growing up to do. Just to wrap it up, I love how Nate's response when Skippy came he just goes weird oh yeah Nate's always been really good at calling out the strange behavior like even with Jamie he was like wait so

sorry explain it to me someone in the house said and then you said you told me like he's I like the way his mind works. Yeah. I'm going to say if it's weird, I'm going to say that it's weird. Michelle did a great job of,

as always, standing up for Chris. You spoke for me. I don't want that. And Nate, you know, Nate could have gotten insecure in that moment. Not necessarily with Chris, but could have gotten insecure in that moment not necessarily with Chris but like could have felt the need to bravado and then come out there he's like Michelle's

got this I'm gonna let her take care of herself I'm gonna be in the background if anything happens but like nothing's gonna happen she's a capable woman I'll let her defend herself I don't need to come in here and be the knight in shining armor every time like she's doing something I don't like and I think that and be the knight in shining armor every time she's doing something I don't like. And I think that showed a

little bond and a trust between Nate and Michelle all while simultaneously getting Skippy the fuck out of Dodge. He didn't even gloat about Chris going. He just was like, cool. All right. I thought he handled that whole situation really well.

I think it's because he just knows. It's just a matter of time. And oh, the irony that Skippy in trying to demonize Nate just gave a sticking point for Nate and Michelle's relationship to grow even more. He gave them a tiny bit of adversity that they could overcome together as a couple. That's true.

The show decided for whatever reason, and I don't know why, Ed, T, B, D, is that they still left a seed of doubt. Right? After she sent home Chris, they showed Michelle or air Michelle talking about that Chris was warning her about Nate. Oh, right. Yeah. Because she sent Nate home because he spoke for her. Also because she had no interest in him whatsoever. She sent Chris home. Chris. Yeah. I'm sorry. Thank you. She sent her Chris home because she had no interest in him. She spoke for her fine. Like that was just like inevitable, but they didn it is it foreshadowing you know nate like maybe

you know greg was unproblematic until he was problematic you know on the show and so we'll see i don't know yeah i yeah it's it's it's hard to it's hard to tell or they could just be like let's knock our front runner back a little bit keep them guessing so it's not just like oh it was nate the whole time the fact that you're seeing a little chinks in nate's armor but it's really nothing all at the same time also makes me feel like maybe he wins yeah yeah but they also have the benefit of knowing that they aren't well well, they have their bachelor. It's a guy who is being outshined by everyone. And most seasons,

they will make that person look flawless. Right. And you know, you're, you're the, you're a winner or your first runner up or your, you know, they'll ultimately look good overall,

but you're, you're, you're capable of showing chinks in the armor. But your next lead, you're very careful, but this man's perfect. He's a good fighter, and he's good with guts, apparently.

Sorry, Nate. I'm sorry, Clayton. I'm sure you're fine. I'm just... It's remarkable this is all they have so far. Yeah. I wonder... Maybe It's remarkable this is all they have so far. Yeah. I mean, I wonder maybe they've got something coming. He's got to get a one-on-one next week. I mean, we're down to eight. He's not

top four. Yeah, it's clearly going to be a comeback situation with him in terms of just relevance. Not even with actually getting to the relationship with Michelle, but it's like America loves a comeback. We love an anonymous man proving himself, but I think that is impossible because we know it's him, so we can't be surprised because

we've been watching him this whole time and we're disappointed. Well, it's going to happen. He's going to get a one-on-one next week is my guess. He'll be fine. He'll be good with kids or whatever. I don't know. And then he'll go home the week before hometowns in a very unceremonious kind of whatever way. There's no stakes.eremonious kind of like whatever way.

There's no stakes. It'll be kind of like when Katie was the bachelorette. Like, you know, she got sent home in a one-on-one. To Katie's defense, she was a character on the show. I mean, she was a fan favorite. She was outspoken. We saw her personality. She shined even without getting any real time

with Matt like whatever you if you liked her disliked her it didn't matter she shined yeah on the show and like Clayton it's just it's it hurts how much they're trying and how little they have to work with

I mean maybe there's some though there'll be some crazy, we'll get to know him in some way that will endear us to him and retroactively make us root for him. Yeah, I want to see it. Hopefully next week and go, now I see it.

Now I get it. I was wrong. I'm sorry. Wow. What a mystery this guy is. Yeah. I hope so. Wow. What a mystery this guy is. Yeah. I hope so. I truly want that. But every week it's,

Hey, Clayton, you get to hit somebody. Stay strong. You're strong. I think we got it covered. Yeah. Do we want to do top four now? Because it feels like there's some real shit. Who's your top four, Jason?

Who's your winner? Who's do top four now? Cause it feels like there's some real shit. Who's your top four, Jason? Who's your winner? Who's your top four? My top four are, uh, Joe, Nate, Brandon, Rodney,

just cause I, I love Rodney so much and he's funny and he's sweet. And, uh, I also really feel for Rick. I think that his story is so painful and i i want for him that like um goodwill hunting moment where you know someone just says it's not your fault it's not your fault over and over again to him uh just because he he i i see that he's he carries that around he's

and i really like him and i really think he's good. But I just, I think Rodney and, you know, every time, you know, he's sort of like the comic relief and he's super funny and all the dudes love him. But then I feel like he and Michelle do have like a strange connection. And I think he could make it at least top four.

The only thing that's stopping him is I think that she has a better connection with some of the other dudes. But yeah, I think those are my top ones. I actually agree with you. I can't tell who's going to win between Joe and Nate, but those are my top two. I think Brandon is three. And four, I

would have to pick Rick or Rodney. Yeah. I feel like Clayton might make it to hometowns. No. Okay. It's a bet. All right. You saw it, Mark. I feel like Clayton might make it to hometowns. No. Okay. It's a bet. Alright. You thought Mark. I think either Rick

or Rick and Brandon are going to be tough. So we got those four. Then we got Clayton. And who are the other three left? Olu. I think Olu has a chance. Although at the end of the day, I think he really likes her and Michelle really respects Olu, I think Olu has a chance. Although at the end of the day,

I think he really likes her and Michelle really respects Olu, but I don't necessarily see the connection. Olu has like the sassiest... I don't either, but I thought that was really beautiful, that moment where he got really emotional. But he also, I think,

shows a very different side to Michelle, like the relating to the sister, like telling her this past episode, I'm pushed to be better because of you. And then his ITMs are, I hope he doesn't come back. I think I get cockish energy from him. I hate him. Like he does nothing

but kind of talk shit in the ITMs. Yeah, which is fine. That's true. That's true. Yeah, I didn't even hear that. I love a good shit talker in the ITMs. That's your time to be the narrator or point out your... Especially if you're doing it about the right people.

Yeah. I think Michelle respects Olu, but I don't know if I see that. I think there's a stronger connection with Rodney. And then who else? Martin needs to go home. Martin's only there now to just... Martin's there because Michelle knows.

The rest of the guys need to find out. And then we need to have a Martin takedown. Essentially. The only thing... Michelle, she's so good that she kind of ruins it. She sesses out the shitheads before the house does. Or other seasons, it has to be

manufactured a little bit. And then the leads at least perceived to be in the blind like oh my god I thought you were the greatest they said I was they said everyone else in the world is high maintenance and I'm not so like what's not to like

exactly Michelle kind of ruins it by like knowing but now the guys have to find out. Right, exactly. And then Martin will do something weird, and then she'll send them home probably next week. I can't imagine.

I mean, because it's really down to the wire in terms of every guy left, she's had some kind of serious connection with. You know, we never got to see a lot of Leroy. So I wasn't or Casey. So that wasn't that big of a surprise. I really liked Leroy. I feel like he's somebody who could go on Paradise

and really shine. It was just like, I don't think Michelle was into him, but it seemed like a guy who had a lot of personality that just didn't make the cutting room floor. Yeahass. Yeah, I completely agree. I would watch Leroy on Bachelor in Paradise. Yeah, in case he seems fine.

Yeah. Nice. We'll definitely see him. Solid dude. Potentially in Paradise. Jason, always a pleasure. Thank you. We really appreciate it. Please always let the people know where they can follow you, new projects you have

coming out or already out or that you're working on that you're allowed to talk about, if any. Well, I'm on Twitter at Jason Ritter. I'm on TikTok now. Now we're all on TikTok. That's at Jason Ritter

at Jason Ritter 1980, I think, because so many things were taken. Well, season two of Raising Beyond is coming out in February. So that'll be fun.

And then I'm working on a couple animated things as well. And I'll tell that later. I'll put it all on Twitter and stuff like that. Jason, always a pleasure. We love having you on

and come back soon. Thanks for listening a pleasure. We love having you on and come back soon. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send your questions at asknick at castmedia.com. Cast for the K for Ask Nick episodes. Look for our episode coming out sometime on Wednesday with Dr. Dyad breaking down the very well talked about all too well music video of Taylor Swift and hopefully we can learn a little bit about

communication styles and attachment styles and relationships by doing so it'll be a ton of fun with Dr. Diane and if nothing else have a great day Bye.