The Viall Files - E347 Bachelorette Recap With Ali and Amanda

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

We’re breaking down all the Bachelorette drama with The Viall Files Team, Ali and Amanda. We kick things off by getting some of the Bach hot goss from the rumor mill with Ali. After that, we dive into how Martin undermines others when he feels threatened, how Clayton crying while reading the note was probably staged, and how sometimes the slow-burn contestants can have lasting impact later in the show. We then ask about Michelle being turned on by Joe playing basketball, how Rick looks like he’s fragile, and how anything can be a metaphor- including churning butter.  “Martin seems like the type of guy that won’t go down on you unless you’ve showered” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Check out our new "Introvert" merch at www.viallfiles.com today! Use code “VIALL” to get 25% off during our Black Friday Sale (offer runs 11/25-11/29) THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: RumHaven: Discover more recipes that will help you Sip into Paradise at http://www.RumHaven.com Ritual: Go to http://www.Ritual.com/Viall to get 10% off during your first 3 months. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Don't forget to turn the heat up with Rum Haven. That is made with real coconut water. Perfect for mixing to make delicious drinks like the Haven on Hearth or the Cocohita or drink it on its own, maybe on the rocks. That's how I enjoy my Rum Haven. Be the hit of every party with Rum Haven. Turn the heat up and enjoy some Rum Haven this holiday season. Discover more recipes that will help you sip into paradise at rumhaven.com. You're crazy. Wednesday morning? I don't know. Welcome to another episode of The Vile Files. I am your host, Nick. And I am joined by both my guests for this episode and the trusty team of Allie and Amanda. Ladies, welcome. It's your first time on camera. It's a big day. It's a big day. It's Thanksgiving week. It's holiday week. As you, as you know, many people are traveling.

And I thought, you know, instead of dragging a guest in here while they're probably planning for Turkey, let's just have Allie and Amanda take over the recap rolls. He was like, I couldn't get anyone else. Here we are. My literal last choice. Natalie's out of town.

So here we go. It wasn't quite like that at all. Actually, I was feeling late. It's the holidays. I was like, here we have. And we have a nice rotation. And I was just like, you know what? Let's just ask Allie and Amanda.

I don't want to bug anyone. They can't say no. They're going to be here anyway. You guys are playing hard to get. Yeah, exactly. We're going to be here anyway. You guys are playing hard to get. Yeah, exactly. We're going to bargain, actually. How much are you paying? It's my first time seeing you both with makeup on.

Looking decent, yeah. Well, I always thought you both looked wonderful. No, because you know how bad I typically look when you noticed on my birthday that I was wearing makeup and that was the clue that something was going on in my life because you were like, something different is going on here. Well, again, I always thought you guys looked wonderful.

Thank you. Stepping it up on camera. Well, now I think we're going to have a camera on both of you going forward. Oh God. So. Great. That adds so much time to our morning routine.

Yeah. Now I have 25 seconds of putting foundation under my eyes. And then... I did not realize what I was asking. It's okay. Anyway, we'll get through it. Before we get in to today's episode, big episode tomorrow with the bachelorette herself, Michelle Young.

We sit down, we chat, we talk about her men. Why the fuck Colton Clayton, whatever his name is, is the bachelor. About Martin and his terribleness and life. I think we get to know Michelle a lot more. The person, not the bachelor. Totally. But be sure to tune into that while you are traveling home for the holidays.

Also, we are having a Black Friday merch sale, and I'm wearing one of the t-shirts. Having fun, just an introvert. It's our introvert line. So if you find yourself you have a friend who's more of a quiet person in public settings and people are used to telling them to smile

and why are they having fun? Is that your introvert voice in your head when you're in the corner at a party? Nobody knows that I'm actually It's my extrovert impression of an introvert. Why aren't you like... Why aren't you dancing?

Come on, have some fun. Anyway. All extroverts are from the valley. It's a rule. Yeah. 25% off? Yeah. 25%.

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So check us out. I mean, truly, I don't think your introverted friends could be happier. They don't want anything else this holiday season. Although, do we... You know how we had talked about the gift where it's just like a passive-aggressive gift? Sure.

The self-help books. And you're still walking around being like, I'm not an introvert. And be like, we know. Opens up the gift. You're like, nah. And you're like, here, maybe... I hate to bring it to you, but.

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Code V-I-A-L-L. dot com 25% off starting on Thanksgiving code V I A L L and I guess let's get to all things bachelorette bachelorette or should we start with bachelor nation because I feel like it's been popping lately last week was a big week obviously like this week we got the official

announcement from Tasha and Zach but there was like separation RIP yeah but that was like separation rumors. R.I.P. Yeah, but that was starting back on like Friday because someone submitted like this kind of anonymous tip of, she was like, my roommate actually ran the New York marathon next to them. Like they were like somewhat keeping pace. And she was saying like, Taysha kept wanting to walk. And Zach was like, we're not walking, we're still running. And like,

it seemed like really tense. And this person like submitted and she was like, it didn't seem like it was like in a nurturing like coaching way. It seemed really harsh. And then the past few episodes of Tayshia's podcast, she wasn't wearing her ring,

which was weird because the last time she didn't wear a ring, there was so much like paranoia around it. There was another time she wasn't wearing it. Yeah, but she released a statement

because there was so much like this was way back when. She's like, it's getting resized. Like everything's fine. But she didn't release a statement as to why this time. And when she was on

Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen, he was like asking about the wedding. She was like, no, haven't started planning. Don't, you know, no plans.

And then we saw what happened. Also, unfortunate. She liked this post on Instagram that it was just a quote. And it said, finally, I realized that I was never asking for too much. I was just asking the wrong person.

She liked that post on Instagram. Ouch. God. So that's our reputation. Zach. That's always subjective though. Yeah. Yeah.

Those like cryptic vague messages. Well, I, well, man. That's always subjective, though. Yeah. Yeah. Those cryptic, vague messages. Well, I don't think that was an accident. Totally. Did she like that? Yes. That was definitely on purpose. That's a bummer, I feel for them. But I just think what you're asking for,

yeah, I mean, and I guess in a way, sure, if that's how she feels. I think we always have to be careful to be like the other person must suck you know like again it could be like a love language thing you know like what one person's expectation

of how much they give we like we talked to Dr. Diane about that in terms of like there's not the same page they met on the bachelorette I feel like people are really prone to like take an incompatibility and make it into like villainize someone it's not that they're bad it's just that you're incompatible

and that sucks to discover we also have a tendency of doing that in the relationship totally in terms of again it wasn't an accident that she liked that post also like yeah I mean who knows what the rumor of Zach accident that she liked that post. Yes. Also, like, yeah, I mean, who knows

what the rumor of Zach and it doesn't seem like a coach. I take the tea from ongoers and observers. There's also, like, to play devil's advocate with the whole marathon thing, like, what if going into this training, like, clearly

everyone there is,'s like crabby yeah if I'm running a marathon you know I have a blister yeah but also like what if that was like part of their agreement she was like no matter how many times I tell you to walk you have to tell me to keep running yeah that was their like deal she was just like no I really want I have this goal yeah it pushed

me like I have to be faster than Peter and Zach's like okay like I guess. I don't think that the marathon was like... No. They might have already been on the rocks and it was just... That's tough. For sure. Running a marathon

in any conditions is tough. I mean, I heard about Trouble in Paradise long ago, but in their defense, it's a hard... Hard transition. There's Trouble in Paradise long ago, but in their defense, it's a hard... Hard transition. There's Trouble in Paradise always from the beginning because you're always kind of like finding out what you signed up for in that relationship

after you get engaged. Totally. Speaking of Paradise. What? Greg. What about him? There are rumors that he had dinner with some VIP producers

and they were talking about getting him on the show. Where? In New York, I believe. Someone sat next to them and overheard them talking about how they want him on the show. Yeah, it's possible. Sure. I would suspect the producers would want him on the show. I feel like that whole group could be fun.

The Andrew, Justin, Greg. They have a good... It's like, you remember when Greg was just the sad boy who would look out dramatically? Like before, obviously before... Isn't he still? In a way, I feel like he's so much more than that now. He's gotten wrapped up. But like, I never

forget that he's a man with just like haunting looks in his eyes. I would be shocked if Justin, Andrew, and Greg aren't all on the beach next Paradise. That could be fun. Yeah, I wouldn't call it... I feel like they would forget to invite Justin.

Like the producers would forget to email him. Not after those looks into the camera. I think, no, he's a shoo-in for sure. Also, he's like someone that women will be asking for. Like as a heartthrob. You don't know? Why are you looking at me no i have you made the face i know i don't i don't think he's like not a heartthrob i just don't necessarily he wasn't a standout heartthrob for me andrew standout heartthrob in my opinion either way i

suspect all three of them would be will be given the opportunity. Totally. If we had to go through the whole Aaron and James thing I think we deserve those three. I will say yesterday was day 11 of Katie's 12 Days of Messy

which is where she's posting stories of the people on her season and assigning them a Taylor Swift song. What do we think about that? It feels unnecessary.

It feels like she's trying to stir the pot this many months later. Well, I empathize with the fact that everyone who comes off the show is just trying to figure out their lane from a social media standpoint.

Totally. I get hopping on the Taylor Swift hype. That makes sense. Sure. We did that. But it seems a bit Taylor Swift type. That makes sense. Sure. You know, we did that. We did it too. So, but it seems a bit weird

to make it about. It feels harsh. Well, to make it about your bachelor, the man you quote unquote dated like six minutes after you

broke off an engagement. Yeah. And then assigning Blake like we are never ever getting back together. Like, it just feels harsh. Yeah. It's like, okay. She's really leaning into it, you know?

Like, I feel like she maybe heard some blowback from the way she handled herself on AFR, and she was like, oh, okay. So people are talking a lot about the way I was kind of laying into Greg. I'm going to lay into all the other dudes, too. Yeah. Instead of, like, being like, oh, they want to see.

But you know what? It's like, at a certain point, like, I feel of like being like, oh, they want to see. But I, you know what? It's like at a certain point, like I feel like Katie's going, she knows that she doesn't have mass appeal. And so she's like, I'm just going to give my followers. She knows that.

I think I wouldn't say like she, I don't know that she would put it that way, but I think she would maybe phrase it as like a, like she has people, you either love her or you hate her. Take it or leave it. You know? Yeah.

I don't know. I don't think anybody would be like, I don't have mass appeal. That's a tough thing to say about yourself. Would you say you have mass appeal? Depends on how you qualify. I'm not loved by all. Would you rather be polarizing

and have people who really, really love you or really hate you or kind of lukewarm for everyone? Well, I mean, if we're talking about... I mean, at the end of the day, what you really want is people to care and have an opinion about you, I guess, in that context. And I, you know, I don't know. But yeah, it's a weird thing to go back to and make it seem like you care. I mean, whatever. I don't know. 12 days of messy. 12 days of messy.

The first time you said that, I was like, I didn't know Katie was a soccer fan. Like, I was like, what is she doing? Talking about? That reference went over my head. Nobody else knows messy? The soccer player? Oh. God.

Jesus. You really thought that that's what she was talking about? Yeah. Well, I was like, what? Like, that was where my mind went immediately 12 days of messy that honestly i feel like messy should look into that it has a right isn't like hannah's book about like god bless this mess like what is this whole like i guess um it's so much mess happening at the same time totally i feel like that's such a thing for very put together people to be like, I'm such a mess. Well, I think Caitlin

kind of owned that space. Totally. Brilliantly. And she was authentic. Without having to like say it, without having to name it. It's like, oh God, I'm such a mess. It's like when girls are like, I'm so quirky. It's like the first rule of being a quirky girl

don't self label as a quirky girl and Caitlyn for sure Caitlyn has gone around being like this is who I am and I think a lot of women have responded to they see themselves in Caitlyn it's like show don't tell

she just does it she pounds the wine on a weeknight she's like show don't tell, like they say in English class. Yeah, she just does it. Yeah, she just, she pounds the wine on a weeknight. She's like walking the walk. Katie taking notes, being like, oh my God, like it's just like, I don't know. Rum Haven. That's right. Made with real coconut water. It doesn't matter if the seasons are changing and it's getting cold outside. You can still have a tropical indoors, or at least the feel of a tropical setting. As long as you crack open a delicious Rum Haven. Perfect to drink by itself on the rocks. That's how I enjoy my Rum Haven. Super awesome when you mix it with other mixers, and you can

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Ooh. Hmm. But I feel like this might have been a long time coming because like, if you're happily in a relationship with Thomas as Becca is, and his ex won't stop talking shit about him,

I wouldn't necessarily like want to be friends with her on social media either. I get it, yeah. I'm actually like, that's, I mean, for me, that's where I, when Katie came on this podcast, and as I've mentioned, she was incredibly harsh about Thomas. Now, looking back, we now know she had really nothing to go on other than, and then we recorded that podcast literally moments after that episode aired

where she showed up Thomas and it seemed like she was doubling down on her justification of doing so. And essentially, not even essentially, she quite literally warned all of our listeners that Thomas was a bad guy. Like, not like in Bachelor context, but like in life. I think to be fair to Katie, I think it's like when asked about the question of like, do you think, you know, if Thomas is going to be in Paradise, like, what do you think about it? So it wasn't, I just think it's...

No, no, no. I get, yeah, I asked the question, but I was surprised given her platform and the climate we're in that Katie was so cavalier with how she, what she said about Thomas, knowing that she doesn't know Thomas like at all. Yeah, and I wonder if there's a certain degree of like Katie being like, I feel the wrath of the internet and like it's a doggy dog world.

So like if I'm being held to this crazy standard standard i'm kind of gonna like perpetuate it with other people i don't know i don't know what her motive is but that would be again like she has a lot of power with her platform right her words matter whether we agree if they should or not and and when you suggest that a man on this show is a threat to women that's a bit cavalier it feels like she's changed her mind over time like flip flopped well that's the thing though

during Paradise and Becca posted a photo that wasn't from the show I think it was Thomas wiping sand off her feet Katie commented being like the way you look at him or whatever basically implying how happy she was for them so then clearly she was like pro thomas well now she's doing like i knew you were troubled like it's like i'm like where is it i think you would think there would be some self-awareness or maybe and again we could all get caught up in the moment, right? Sure. But you would think there'd be some contrition or like, yeah, maybe I went too far.

And so when you do your 12 days of messy, you don't go back to the well, despite it being low hanging fruit, I guess. Totally. Given the fact that you maybe went on a podcast and went a little too hard to the paint about someone's character and then have that be, people warned me about you. Going back to that whole narrative

that he is somehow a bad guy. It's just like, yeah, it's a real... It's at at best, very messy and sloppy and inconsiderate about, like... They're talking about someone's character. Yeah, I think it's also hard because, like, Thomas' big offense

was sort of very specific to Bachelor World. It was admitting that he has considered the Bachelor, which, again, like, as we've discussed many times, is, like, not a crazy thing to admit. It's, like, honestly, everybody's at least thought about it or they're lying. But I think

it's hard because it's in drawing conclusions from a reality TV show. To what extent can you say this is a trait that carries over into the real world? You can't, at all. Sure. Also, I've actually met Thomas a few times now through him dating Becca.

He was at Ben's wedding. He was at Ben's wedding. He was at Ben's wedding? Yeah, well, because Becca was invited. Oh, totally. And I met him at a Halloween party that Natasha threw. And the more I get to know Thomas, and I still don't know him that well, is that my suspicions have been confirmed so far, is that he's just a big nerd who looks like he should be

some sort of Adonis charming guy. Yeah. I went to the bathroom at the wedding and in the lobby, him and Jared were arguing about, I don't think Star Wars or something. That's so endearing. or something. That's so endearing. Again, I think Thomas' biggest crime is that he is a six foot five, really attractive guy who

is a little awkward. Yeah, well, I think it was also kind of what you were saying when you first met him on the group date about him really turning on the charm. I think he's a very articulate, smart person. And I think sometimes he doesn't handle that. Well, I saw him try to turn on the charm. Yeah. he's a very articulate, smart person. And I think sometimes he doesn't handle that the best way. Well, I saw him try to turn on the charm.

Yeah. I didn't find it charming. Attempted. But I did judge him for how he looked. He's this tall, attractive guy. He walks in the room, you notice the guy. And so, yeah, I think we, me me we all prejudged him by his attractiveness and assume that he should you know with great power comes great responsibility

with being six five comes so yeah if i'm becca and like she's doing this 12 days of messy and then she is low-key if you're thomas you know what i'm saying like you all we all we always hear all the shit talked about each in each of us and it'd be you know after katie came on this podcast thomas dm'd me you know you could tell he was bothered by it right and it's just's just, you know, um, and then like, you think it goes away, right? Maybe he's like,

she's like pretending to be supportive. And then all of a sudden she's like, people warned me about you. It's just like, I, you know, most people don't care and they move on. But if you're Thomas,

you're probably in rightfully so extra sensitive about that. And then back, back, I was like, fuck this chick, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's so different for like someone talking shit about you. I think it's like much, I was like, fuck this chick, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Cause it's so different for like someone talking shit about you. I think it's like much easier to be like, I need to take the high road versus like someone talking shit about someone you care about. It's like, no, get away. Absolutely not.

Yeah. There just seems to be a lack of like Katie thinking about how people are going to, what's this going to say about these guys that she, even if she's joking, you know. I mean, she went on national television and misdefined gaslighting and now she's just

out there and whether they misdefined it or not, we all know that people are going to watch her 12 Days of Messy and read into it and make judgments about certain people. I think it's hard because I think her whole, again, the whole thing that she's going for

is just being this very like candid, honest person. And so while that has some benefits, it's like this like kind of like, I'm just going to kind of say whatever's on my mind and just like speak is like not as in certain settings does not translate well. And I think we've seen that. Yeah. Well, I guess Becca and Katie won't be friends. Some of the guys from her season,

I want to say it was like an Instagram live. And I'm pretty sure it was Andrew, Greg, Justin, and Mike P. And Andrew at one point was like, Mike, what do you think about 12 Days of Messy? Mike had no idea that they were going on, what they were. And I was like, that's the most Mike P thing I've ever experienced. What did the rest of the guys say? Well, Andrew just started dying laughing

about the fact that Mike didn't know what it was. I just saw a short clip, but I was like, little Mike, protect Mike at all costs. And her last one, she's not naming? She's making it a two-dayer. So unless she's up yesterday, day 11, there wasn't a name and she said

it would be like completed today do you think she started thinking it was like some amazing idea and then like a quarter of the way through like

mixed reviews and now she's just like I can't quit fuck I have eight more left she's literally done a whole video she's like

people keep messaging me about what the name is like she she loves it she loves it you know I think she's happy and like messaging me about what the name is like she she loves it she loves you know i think she's happy and like while i think it's fair to criticize i i feel like she's she's sticking to her guns and she's doing what she wants to do at the end of the day and god gotta respect it on some level god bless that bless both hers and hannah brown's mess let's see what else comes out in this book other than the Peter hookup.

Yeah, so she hooked up with Peter. Yeah. But that was after... So apparently, Peter broke up with Hannah Ann in like January. Hannah and Dylan had their engagement party in February. All the producers at that point, Peter's season was still airing. They were like, don't go to this engagement party. Obviously, because he was single at that point.

It would have kind of ruined the ending of his season he goes to the party sees hannah brown apparently they hook up then in march he like on like march 10th he tried to get back with maddie that lasts until like march 12th and then kelly appeared so god bless his mess honestly peter just calls that life. He's like, I don't know. What's the problem? Yeah. I will say that whatever you think about Peter, he's just kind of whatever, man.

Does he just pull? Like girls left him, right? Is that his vibe? That shocks me. What do you mean? I don't know. He just doesn't seem like that. I don't know him all that well.

I think he's just kind of just like... He's just like, him all that well. I think he's, he just kind of just like, he's just like, okay, he's like a kind of, whatever, man, he doesn't have a care in the world. It's like,

it was, I don't know. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I don't know. But, but what's,

cause when it first came out, it was implied that maybe there was some overlap, overlap, but there wasn't. So if there wasn't an overlap, then like whatever. Hannah was just like a layover in between his flight from...

What's her name? Hannah Ann to Maddie. Hannah Ann to Maddie. And it was a Hannah Brown layover. I would love to know what Barb thinks about this whole thing. His mom. So wait, did Peter...

Did Hannah go to Barb's house? Huh? Well, Peter lived with his parents in LA. Oh, after the engagement party? Then they said they went to Barb's house? Huh? Well, Peter lived with his parents in LA. Oh, after the engagement party? Then they said they went to Peter's, which is Barb's. Imagine waking up

wearing Peter's shirt or some shit and going to the bathroom and you run into Barb in her robe. Oh my God. That's what I want to know about. I want Barb to write a book.

That's a book I'll actually buy. All right, let's get into The Bachelorette. Yeah, let's do it. So wait, we start with... We're down to eight. Down to eight. Kids come in. Kids.

Children. Oh my God. Clayton's big. Clayton's big moment. Oh, come on. This was not Clayton's big. That was the weirdest. So yeah, the show wants us to... This this whole like I don't know why they do that

like is it we're supposed to like do you think the producers want us to believe that Michelle's kids planned the week it wasn't there wasn't like a wink wink nod nod to like oh the kids planned the dates it was more no the kids planned the dates yeah very

earnest very earnest which i guess well i think it's so funny because i think michelle is someone who like obviously all the men respect so much that you could almost see they were like any student of michelle must be very good they were all like very respectful of the children which i really appreciated and then you meet luke and you're like luke is objective oh my god than the rest of them. He's like half as tall. Some of them didn't seem all like fifth graders. No, Luke especially. Different growth spurts. Luke is like, you're kind of in that. There's a range. I love Luke, but there's no way that child is in fifth grade, I don't think. Are you kidding? He was whipping out kind, patient, nice. Those were like his three buzzwords. That's how he described Michelle. It's how he

described what he wants his wife to look like. He's got some good adjectives. Clayton has big muscles for carrying the groceries. That's what he said. That was a good asset. Once again, Clayton has We can get it. I'm just shocked that the ABC or the producers are

like, we see it. They just want us to know. Even the kids. They're just telling the kids. The same muscles. Right. Kelsey, props to Kelsey, who... Sniffed out Martin's bullshit. It's just me and Kelsey.

Off the bat, we knew. Martin, who turns to a fifth grader and goes, I've had a lot of intimate and romantic experiences with your teacher. Like, ew. Martin's the guy who talks to kids like an adult. He's like, and I have a VIP booth if you want a comp bottle.

Feel free to bring your friends. I think the thing that this part of the episode showed me is that kids can say any two facts or like basic observations. And it is so hard hitting. Like Kelsey was like, Martin's trying to show off and he wears too much cologne and it's like, boom, roasted, Kelsey.

Something about those two sentences just saying those two very simple observations together and you're like, God damn, she got him. I wish she would have just said, boom, roasted. Boom, roasted. Anyway, so the kids are planning the dates.

Big reveal. They select... I mean, do you think this is anyway so the kids are planning the dates big reveal they select I mean do you think this is all about the show trying to sell Clayton to us that it was the not only is Michelle happy that Clayton is selected for this one on one but it's the kids who

you know sense like a wonderful human I don't know. The show sold me on Jaylene because I think she is coming for Tayshia and Caitlin's job. Did you see her drop that date card and go, good luck? Like she like just kind of shrugged her shoulders to this entire group of adults. And she was like, good luck, boys. Like she watches the show. Yeah.

She nailed it. Tayshia and Caitlin might be... Out of a job. We didn't see them until like the rose ceremony this week. Yeah. She nailed it. Tayshia and Kayla might be... Out of a job. We didn't see them until the rose ceremony this week. I forgot who they were. It's like we forget that there's hosts sometimes. They do not show... Well, Jaylene has shown that, I guess.

Jaylene shined. Even a fifth grader can do it. But to kind of what you were saying about Clayton, it's interesting because it's like, had they chosen that he would be the bachelor before this moment? Because it's like, because it's like, had they chosen that he would be the bachelor before this moment? Because it's like based off what? Even after the date based off what?

Have we ever had a, well, you know, again, since the show started casting previous people, I mean, I'm almost, I wish,

I wish that we didn't, it wasn't leaked that Clayton was the bachelor because I mean, I wish that it wasn't leaked that Clayton was The Bachelor because I think the reaction either way is going to be a resounding, huh? Sure. And I feel bad because Clayton seems like a nice guy. This is not like an indication of we don't like Clayton. No, he seems lovely. He seems like a lovely guy. But like it just doesn't make sense.

It's kind of like what you're saying where it's like he's like the Bachelor pick 10 years ago. Like oh this guy who's been single for a really long time and doesn't know if he can open up again. But even then there wasn't a compelling story. Usually also like let's just look at the optics. I mean this is the first season ever

in the history of The Bachelor where they have a top four that is all people of color. Totally. And yet. And yet. And yet our Bachelor is like...

A mysterious white guy. And mysterious. Yeah. There's another... I mean, it's just really bad. You go through this whole, like, having more diversity.

You have Michelle, a person of color, as your bachelorette. You have your first bachelor, Matt James. You also have conversations on the show. Like, you have like Tayshia and Ivan

talking about BLM. You have Michelle, like, sharing a lot of like, very personal experiences about moving through the world as a lot of very personal experiences about moving through the world as a woman of color. Even on Bachelor in Paradise, we were having those conversations. Right.

And so it's not only in optics, it's also in content. And then... And then you typically pull, not always, but typically pull from your final four. Again, not always. They did it with Katie. They did it with Hannah Brown. But with Katie, Katie shined.

Katie got a ton of air time. She had a strong fan base. Hannah Brown was a little bit more of a surprise, but certainly you saw the personality. Exactly. She had the same messy quality we were talking about. The Caitlyn, the Katie's.

With Clayton, it's just... It's like the... Welin the katie's and with with clayton it's just it's like the there's we never saw him like at all we always one-on-one i don't feel like i saw him barely at all it was just like a lot of platitudes everything he said was very like tied up with a bow good statement like could run for office. But I was like, what is beneath the surface here, Clayton? Yeah. It's like, I will say the one moment where I was like, okay, Clayton was when he was dancing. He was dancing like a little freak and I loved it.

Did you see him dancing at the museum? The mating call. Like what he was doing? The little mating call. He like went for it. He was like doing his thing. Great. I mean, again, it's just like, it's just,

I'm really curious what, if people are going to, I'm, again, it's just like, it's just, I'm really curious what, if people are going to, I'm sure some people will, but like just a really bad look to Cass Clayton, knowing that he gave us nothing. He's been outshined by virtually everybody. Totally.

You have your first all person. Non-white. Your first non-white, all-nine-white final four. Of four incredibly charismatic and charming. Oh my God. All four characters I'm personally invested in and individually want to find love. I mean, like Rodney.

Oh my God. Oh my God. And I think you could tell that because the episode started out with I mean, like, Rodney? Oh my God. Oh my God. And I think you could tell that because the episode started out with Rodney being like, I can only imagine how Michelle's feeling right now.

This must be really hard for her. Like, he is consistently so funny and easygoing while also being so substantive. Like, and he has a great smile.

Like, Rodney would be a spectacular bachelor. And then Clayton, somewhere in his conversation with Michelle was essentially like, yeah, I wasn't really even dating. Well, he said he was like, over the last five years, I've just been trying to impress people and make them think I was good enough.

Now I'm able to stop worrying and comparing myself to others. But yeah, he implied he has been single for five years. And he's like, I pursued an MBA because I thought that would make me happy. But now I'm realizing I basically have to pull someone into my life to make me happy. It's not going to be an NBA. I thought he said NBA. And I was like, last-ditch effort. Even though he played football, I was like, last-ditch effort to try and get Michelle. And I considered playing in the NBA.

Am I Joe? Am I Joe? Maybe. Yeah, it's just... Also, I just don't know people are invested in him at all. Even like I flagged, they were doing like the butterfly question things

and Michelle was like, I give and I give and I give and that's something I'm proud of, but it can also be my downfall. She was trying to kind of open that door and instead of providing his own example or saying something about him, he's like providing his own example or saying like something about him he's like the world needs more people like that and i hope to be that way as well and

that's why i admire you the most and i want to pick up from you and uh i'm experiencing so much growth because of that and michelle just goes very platitude she's like oh like michelle literally was like oh like she had no interest yeah i will say like even I agree that like Clayton is speaking in platitudes and like again had we not been watching this only through the lens of like being like why is he the bachelor like please earn it in some way shape or capacity sir like I will say he does it does at least come across as genuine

with him like I don't think he's being dishonest or he seems like a nice guy yeah interestingly enough if we didn't know he was the bachelor I think we would have watched it totally yeah it would have been you know how when the bachelor. I think we would have watched it totally. Yeah, it would have been, you know how when we watch the show and we get to like this week of the season where it's like the final six and all of a sudden you're like, who the fuck's that guy? That's what we were saying about Clayton. Totally.

Yeah. People are like, oh, who's the big guy who's like, you wouldn't know his name. Yeah, smile. He smiles like. Football. The ultimate Viking. We you wouldn't know we would pay no attention to him right but we've been honed in on him because we know he's the bachelor totally yeah we're more critical now then somehow you know brandon not good enough rodney nate joe you know whoever whoever Michelle doesn't end up with and then you got Nate

I mean charming oh my god so charming heartthrob absolute heartthrob like you'd think women

would be lined up to date Nate but I'm starting to like I'm starting to maybe question Nate not like

question him I think before I was just so so charmed by him and now I'm starting to be a little bit more like hmm. Well, Nate is, I agree with you because like let's say

well we know none of them are The Bachelor, your top four, and whoever Michelle doesn't end up with, I would suspect those three gentlemen would also end up on Paradise. Totally. And every time we watch Paradise, we're always looking for who is the guy,

who's the Brandon, who's the Blake of this season? The heartthrob, good guy, frontrunner that everyone thought was super sweet and charming. That person thought, I didn't get the bachelor last time for whatever reason, but everyone loves me. So I'm going to come down and be, this is my bachelor audition. They get sloppy.

They're in a bunch of DMs. They come back. They come down like there's no way. They're not going to be loved. Invincible. And Nate is by far totally the most likely most likely to be that person absolutely yeah not because he's a bad guy he's not martin martin martin martin has proven to be one of the worst ones ones of, I mean, the stuff he said was so shocking.

Like right up there with Skip. I would argue Martin's worse than Skippy. Yes, because Martin, yeah, I would agree. Because for all the conversations we've had over the past year, the Greg and the gaslighting conversations and the reaction to, you know, Greg being upset, which I,

I would think that most people were the people who are critical of Greg is because they thought they didn't believe Greg's sadness. They just thought it was some sort of act. Well, I think they also, I think there was also an argument like, like that it was misdirected that he like took his stuff. And instead of processing it again, but based off of like his and we've all handled fights poorly sure right

but martin martin very much looks like the guy despite we are we try to suggest that maybe we shouldn't be using words like gaslighting and love bombing but martin looks like the poster child for the guy who is capable of being the emotional abuser that we all are like trying to identify out there the guy who's so quick to like make everything your fault to think that you are the crazy one because you're simply trying to express your emotions and he he doesn't just make an accusation he like runs a campaign yeah to like discredit especially when he because at a time where he feels threatened or losing you know not because he's emotionally caught up in a crazy world and grasping at straws, trying to process straws,

trying to press it, process his emotion, my emotions. He is being critical, criticized a little bit and immediately trying to flip the switch and, and making it, I mean, it's wild.

His willingness to say what he did on national television, while seemingly not all that upset, seemingly not out of control of his emotions, and not that it's in any way to... There's no excuse of getting mad and reacting poorly. But we have all gotten mad, reacted poorly,

and been like, ugh. And what comes after that is you cool off, and then you're like, I got mad, and I'm embarrassed. And I'm embarrassed at the way I behaved. And depending on how frequent that happens, certainly we can assess whether there's a real issue there or not. But Martin is a guy who, you didn't see him all that mad. He seemed maybe a little embarrassed.

Yeah, it was not a crime of passion. It was very premeditated and very careful. Yes. The way he was just finding so like ways to linguistically like undermine michelle and make it like question her and like question her integrity and the way he kept being like he kept being like it's a miscommunication that he's only gonna attribute to michelle and it's like bro a miscommunication is between two people and And you're only blaming it on her. It was 100% Michelle's fault. And also, if Michelle's involved, it's your fault. Like, literally, it's your fault.

Name one other time. Like, the way he's sort of, like, making it seem like, like, finding any excuse to, like, find, like, a crack all too well. Like, when Clayton's on his one-on-one. And he's like, Martin is like, well, if he comes back, I'm really going to question Michelle's judgment. When he said he'd been questioning her decisions up until that point. And he even delivered it so rudely to the guys. He goes, I don't know if you guys are aware. I don't know if you guys noticed, but hometowns

are next week. He's like, I don't know if you're paying attention. And he's like, I've just been questioning some of these roses that Michelle has been giving out. So if Clayton doesn't come home, I won't be questioning those as much. No, I've landed on that. Martin is the smallest of dick energy. He is soft.

He is small inside. And when he feels threatened, this is how he very passively, aggressively will criticize you and break you down. If my sister was dating Martin, that would be... And again, we record this early. I think there'll be a hatred towards Martin,

but I don't think there'll be the vitriol. I don't know if people will be as triggered by Martin as they have been by other people. I'm curious. And I think they should be. For all the triggering that goes on when we watch this show, it's so subtle but so obvious how Martin handles and will break down people in his life if he feels threatened. Totally.

Well, I think part of it is the surprise. And it's like i will be the first to say i totally pegged martin wrong incorrectly i was like he takes off his glasses so suave he has a nose piercing like wonderful but then it was like the second he started defending jamie to michelle on like martin and michelle on their one-on-one he's defending his friend who left like that's i feel like it's been a long time coming and i think so often when we see this like big reaction to people it's people who it's like it's been a long time coming and I think so often when we see this like big reaction to people it's people who it's like

it feels like a betrayal and it feels shocking versus like Martin has been like slowly slinking his way into douchebaggery up until this point on the show

and then it really came to a head yeah Martin's the kind of guy who like will not go down on you unless you have showered like he just seems like

such and he seems like the kind of guy who like talks such a big game about being such a good man and such an empathetic man and a good lover. Such a good lover.

And then when you don't orgasm, it's your fault. Totally. I even wrote that down during their group date based on what he was doing with the cows. I was like,

he's not a generous lover. He doesn't even want to touch it. I love how one of the bachelors signature things is like, we're going to show up someone from Miami with a country style date like they did on your season with

did it bring you like flashbacks to your farm date can we just I mean flashbacks but it was like okay moving on to the group date is that what we're doing our bachelor goes home bye okay moving on oh no wait wait hold on should we talk about the letters yeah we talk about the letters oh my god was he crying because it

looked like he was told to cry. Uh-huh. Because clearly, obviously, the whole letter was, I think we might make him our bachelor. From a production standpoint,

was this filmed the morning after? Was this filmed like a month ago? There's a strong possibility that letter from the kids was filmed months after. That's what I was wondering.

Totally. Like at, like. They pull Kelsey out of class again. They're like, hey, sweetie, remember the fort man? Write him a letter. And that also points to Luke being five years younger than everyone else because Kelsey has this beautiful, tiny

handwriting. And it's like, dear Kelsey. Who wrote the letter? Kelsey had one and Luke had the other. And you open up Luke's and it's like, you are good man. XOXO Luke. To be fair, Kelsey was rocking with line paper. Luke was going blank page,

free handing it. Yeah. Let's not pick on the kids here. Allie is like, that is not fifth grade level handwriting to me. Where's the cursive? It's not. I mean, I wasn't one to talk

in fifth grade level. But yes, there is a... We know that they were strongly interested in Michael. We know that they were interested in Greg. Also, by the way, they passed on Andrew. The producers felt that somehow Clayton was more suitable for the better face of the franchise. Whatever. I don't know.

Yeah. But yes, strong pot. So when they were filming this, they, I think we're very much, I think Clayton left after they decided he was the bachelor. And this moment was very much because they decided he was going to be the bachelor. Right. It felt like a hard sell. Well, I don't know for sure at all. There's a strong possibility that Clayton reading these letters from the kids happened months later.

In the middle of filming his season. They already had the cameras rolling. They're like, hey, you know what we can do here? Which would be like why he kept sniffing. He would... And then he would wipe right below his eyes. Yep. And I wasn't seeing anything.

And then maybe for one shot, I saw a little bit of gloss in the eye. Yeah. He was definitely, at first, he was definitely crying. We made a TikTok of Nick, quote unquote, crying. We just threw water from the sink on his face. There's some tricks.

There is Visine floating around Bachelor Nation. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. You heard it here first. I also just want to say. Have you? there's some tricks there is there is Visine floating around Bachelor Nation interesting okay yeah you heard it here first I also just want to say have you? I can't be the first one

to suggest that people like have a fake cry on reality TV never it's hard hitting we broke the story I mean

and Clayton mentioned that he's like hasn't cried in forever I would argue that he still has yet to cry to like really cry and again as sweet as these wonderful kids are that he's like hasn't cried in forever i would argue that he still has yet i agree it's like really crying and again as as sweet as these wonderful kids are i don't know if i would and i would cry over any like moment like a commercial i can get teared up on if it's like

a big moment totally but i if there's an animal especially but like you know I hope you go I hope you aren't sad from a kid I just don't know if that would it's like yeah he makes great farts

and has big muscles and then Clayton's crying but I do think I think there's something about the like please don't be sad that like really I think the reason

he was crying is because I think he was like in that moment realizing that he was going to open you think those were real tears

yeah and I think knowing that there's at in that moment realizing that he was going to open. You think those were real tears? Yeah. And I think knowing that there's at least 50% chance that he filmed it, let's say four weeks after he got sent home. Yes. With a woman he had almost no connection with at about 14 minutes of conversation. Yes.

Because I think he was like, after which he was asked to be the bachelor yes it's like listen was it you think was it convenient timing for the tears yes but i think as we saw in his limo interview his whole thing was he was like it just sucks when you you know the classic it sucks when you open yourself up and get hurt like this it makes me want to close myself off again and then i think the reason he was crying so much was like please don't be sad is because he was realizing that he was like going to have to eventually get himself out of this and that he was going to have to try again because he really wants kids and he knows he wants this and that i think he was like crying like just at the

sheer emotional prospects of the future and knowing that he has like a long road ahead of him he doesn't have a long road ahead of him he He's going to find some basic, boring, Midwestern woman and settle down. Do we think that seeing the kids and getting the letter made him realize he wants kids so bad? Because that would almost be a red flag? He also said to Michelle,

after they met the kids, he was like, I couldn't remember the last time I was around kids. Did he say that? Yeah, as he was getting in the limo, he's like, I was trying to remember if I was good at it. I didn't know how to hang out with them, so I built a fort.

But he was good. He built a fort. Amazing move. Amazing move. Also, not entirely sure that was his idea. Sure. Sure. It might have been.

Unclear. Yeah. We have a lot of questions. Yeah. But knowing that he was selected as the bachelor it's fair to wonder how much help he might have gotten and since we didn't see much of clayton a la personality you know i wonder if and you can tell me like how accurate this is but like how much of it is like

the way that people interface with production because he seems like the kind of guy who would be really polite and really considerate to like whenever he was doing like the confessionals or whatever else like he seems like he would be a real delight to work with it could that be a factor as to why they chose him but sure yeah but they've all again it makes no sense. They've casted pains in the asses before. It's a nice to have. But it's not a deal maker. But yeah. And then, you know,

again, when I say we don't know if it was Clayton's idea, the Bachelor is a love story, right? They want to have romantic moments. And sometimes you cast people who come up and say, Brandon's the type of guy who is probably constantly thinking of sweet gestures to do for Michelle. When I was on Andy's season,

rather some people thought it was weird, but I wrote that fairy tale and drew those pictures. And it was my idea. It was my idea to get her flowers. There are plenty of people who go on that show that are full of great ideas and they go to producers and they're asking what they can do. And there's a lot other, a lot of other people who are there. It's, it doesn't come naturally.

It's not their vibe or they're too nervous. And sure. The producers are like, Hey man, like, have you ever, what about this? And they throw my ideas, which is totally fine.

You're trying to make a show. Yeah. And it just seems like Clayton is someone who, he's just a puppet. Yeah, he's a figurehead. You know, and they're like, hey, here's some pillows and blankets. Walk in there and say, let's make a fort. The big old teddy bear. Yeah.

And that's what they're hanging their hat on. And you look at someone like Brandon and when Michelle said, I know how Brandon loves. I thought that was such a really nice moment. And I knew exactly what Michelle was talking about when she said that. Because you see this Brandon and every moment Brandon is like you can tell he loves hard and maybe there's

like part of his youthfulness. He's not that young. He's like 26. He's not that young. But the way he talks I think makes him sound younger. He talks like he's a very romantic guy and he really he talks like he loves her. He's a passionate man.

I don't know that Brandon is as... I don't know that he's super articulate. I agree that he comes off as incredibly genuine. I think you can visibly see he thinks Michelle is just so out of his league. And he is so goddamn lucky for every second he gets to be next to her. What do you mean he's not articulate? I just feel like he's like... I think of Michelle as someone who's like

so thoughtful. I can like really beautifully like point out specific details and like just find really like clever ways to describe and present a situation. And I feel like with Brandon, I feel like he was like very, very sweet, but I don't think he said anything that was like not

super generic. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I mean he's not like it wasn't like with joe when he talked about granted it wasn't joe's line joe got it from someone else but he still it had an impression on joe to the point where he remembered and related which is uh great things come from pain or the other side of pain. Right. Beautiful. And so, yeah, but I just think at least Brendan has the passion,

but it's not even like big sweeping lines like that. Like I don't need line. It's, it's Brandon is like, really like Michelle and I did it. Like, he's not saying anything real. I don't need like sweeping gestures. I don't need sweeping gestures. I don't need these cinematic lines.

I need him to actually speak about real things and understand what his life with Michelle is going to look like. He has a very youthful energy. And even when he was talking with Michelle's parents, I'm like, tell me something real. Tell me actually what's going on other than the Swedish fish and the kisses. Again, I just think...

When Michelle said, I know how Brandon loves. I looked at a guy who was raised in a way where you can tell he grew up... This is my impression. He grew up in a house where

he was raised to be a provider, nurture, caregiver, whatever. And a lot of guys will say that, right? But he will pride himself over turning the video games off when his girlfriend's like, hey man, can we spend some time together? Or he will even throw his Xbox out the window. He'll be like, obviously. You know, and he prides himself over going to the grocery store and seeing the bouquet of flowers and grabbing the flowers.

And again, while maybe not overly deep or articulate, and I'm not saying he's not, but I get what you're saying. He's not necessarily dropping like, I've never heard something like that before. But he comes from a place of wanting to... He's thoughtful. And he seems to at least be present

when he is having these moments. And where someone like Clayton seems like a nice guy. Yeah. But he also seems like the type of guy for just assuming... Just kind of painting out... If Clayton represents a certain type of guy, it's like the nice guy that you settled down with in the Midwest,

but he's got passions of hunting and fishing and lifting weights and packing his own lunch. And he'll be nice on the first couple of dates, but once you settle into the relationship, his passions will be not necessarily getting flowers or taking you to the ballet or doing that. relationship like his passions will be not necessarily getting flowers or you know taking you to the ballet or doing that but like he's gonna be like oh babe i'm going fishing you know like and i could be wrong but that's how it comes across where his and you think brandon's passion

will never die i think passion i think brandon seems like a guy who grew up dreaming about loving someone in a very special way. That's really sweet. Yeah. And Clayton, I don't think, has thought about that at all. We don't know that. We don't. But it seems... Brandon might just be more open to sharing that part.

I feel like Brandon's a very transparent dude. Something you might want from your bachelor. Yeah. I'm not agreeing that Clayton should be our bachelor. You know what you're looking for in a bachelor? Poker face. Generic lines. Poker face and platitudes.

Someone's like, I mean, I, yeah, sure. I guess I hope I get married someday. Yeah. Like I want to be a dad. Groundbreaking. I want to be a dad. But he just realized that because he just encountered kids for the first time in five years. Yeah.

You know. Yeah. I just, I think the thing with Brandon is that like, it feels like very like puppy love and in a way that feels, and I never questioned the authenticity of it. Like, I think it's so real.

I think he feels it 500%. I think he's like burning with love for Michelle, but I kind of, it doesn't, I'm like, what comes after the puppy love? And I think part of the pro with Brandon is that he seems like the kind of person who would genuinely maintain a little glimmer of that even when he's

80. Yes. But I don't know that that's enough to like, I don't know that he would develop kind of the other things necessary for, like, I just think, I think he would, you know how Michelle was like,

I'm always kind of the one who's like coaching and I want someone who can like coach me. Like, I think Brandon would support her, but I don't know that he would coach her. Correct. Yeah. Because he's drooling over her. He's like, looks up to her. I don't think she's going to pick Brandon. Yeah. Yeah. Who do you think? Amanda picked Brandon when we had Michelle on. You did.

Yeah. I say shit to stir up the pot. I, you know, I feel like it's very important to have... Balance, yeah. Yeah, you gotta have some balance. I do actually, I think after this episode,

I was like, I think Rodney has a really good shot. I do, yeah. I think Rodney... I love Rodney. Rodney is the new Justin. Justin's facial expressions are Rodney's, like, phrases.

Like, during the Viking date last week when someone was eating the food and he goes, is it crunchy? It's crunchy. And, like, at the farm, he's like, oh, Bessie, Bessie, we can't lose the milk. Like literally he's like the new Justin facial expressions, but what he says. I see, I could see Michelle picking Rodney. I love him. Because I also think with Rodney, it's like you have the same quality that you have in Brandon of like, you know, that like, he just thinks the world of Michelle. And there's not a doubt in his mind

that if he like got to be with Michelle, he would be the luckiest person and he would act accordingly every day. Like, I think they have that in common. And then with Rodney, I think you have just like a little bit more, like just a little bit more personality. Like I think like with Brandon, it's so his whole personality is the puppy love and it's really effective he's gotten group date roses but with Rodney it's like yeah like with the cows just in general

like he's having a good time and he has some like you know you can see him joke around a little bit more their secret handshake he made a secret handshake with Michelle and Ahmed the kid

he's really into his secret handshakes yeah no we love we love Rodney Rodney the bachelor shout out to Ahmed for sitting down with with Rodney

I still think it's aney asking about the nipples and asking about shaving the nipples and I respected the answer yeah which I think yeah I was like yes

I have sometimes on a special occasion you think he went into the detail with the fifth grader who's like listen

the thing about nipple hair for men it grows slowly they had a very like big brother little brother energy like let me help you out dude this is what you do with your nipple hair Rodney I feel like he might have. It grows slowly. They had a very like big brother, little brother energy. Like, let me help you out, dude. This is what you do

with your nipple hair. Rodney, I feel like, is the guy who like at Thanksgiving like comes over to the kids table and everybody like freaks out and starts like cheering

and there's like a bunch of kids hanging off of them. Like, he just has a good energy. 100%. Again, what does Clayton have that Rodney doesn't? Nothing. Zero.

And scene. Mic drop. Can we speak to someone? Can we pitch Rodney? I'm also like, I feel like they're really setting up a, like on the group date,

the way they were showing Nate and Joe kind of going head to head. I feel like they really are kind of setting up a Nate-Joe finale. Because Nate even said, he was like,

Joe beat me at milking the cow. He beat me at the baby cows. There's got to be something I can beat him at. And then it was like, enter poop. Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Again, I think Brandon goes home next is my guess. Really?

Yeah. You think Brandon goes home before Rodney? Yes. For the same reasons I think like Amanda pointed out, I think there's a puppy same reasons. I think like Amanda pointed out, I think there's a puppy love there. I think Michelle means what she says when she says, I know how Brendan loves. And I think Michelle sees that loves that about him,

but not for her. I don't know if there's a mutual respect. I mean, there's a respect for Brendan, but I don't know if they're on the same wavelength. Brandon, but I don't know if they're on the same wavelength. I think Michelle is probably self-aware enough to be flattered by Brandon, love how she makes her feel, but isn't necessarily challenged. I think Michelle maybe might feel a little bit more, she has too much power dynamic in this relationship. I mean, she's already the bachelorette, right? So there's a power dynamic there.

And I think in that world, you want someone who can shine to the point where you're like, fuck, you make me feel a little like I'm chasing you. You know? And I think that's important for whether you're the bachelor or the bachelorette. And I think Brandon is missing that.

So I think he goes home next and then I would suspect Rodney even though I think he could surprise us and it wouldn't shock me but I just I don't see how I think the Nate and I think Nate and Joe especially in that world knowing having like you

kind of land on your top two it is hard in reality even though the show always talks about, the leads talk about, I waited and even Tayshia was like, I didn't know Zach existed until... I don't buy any of that. And I think it's natural to be drawn to one or two people.

And it's really, really hard unless you really fuck it up to be... really hard unless you really fuck it up to like be you know like I think Rodney surprised her like again Rodney's like Raven was for me you know like night one

you know I didn't really pay too much attention to Raven well but once whatever but I'm saying once you know I started talking to Raven I was like she's awesome she's cool i felt a mutual respect i trusted her i enjoyed talking to her i felt like we were on the same level but she just never she just never could like i was already all in with vanessa kind of thing right and i just feel like that's where rodney is with Michelle. And I can't, I do think now it's more Joe

because I do think Nate, I think eventually Michelle will be like, well, sweet and wonderful and charming and great. Nate has that kind of like fuck boy energy. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, I feel like it's Nate's to lose, but I think he might, like, I think he'll lose it. Like, I think it takes one slip up

because I think up until this point, it's like you can kind of tell that they have this like wonderful chemistry. Well, Joe's a slower burn too, being more introverted and quiet. But, and well, Michelle will talk about it a little bit tomorrow. I think with the slower burn people, the introverted, the quiet ones,

you get them below and more one-on-one time, fantasy suite. I think those are the moments where she really will feel like... And then Joe White. An introverted quiet guy has their moments. You can be that ambivert person, which especially in a setting like The Bachelor, you get

more drawn to be quiet. You're not the first to speak or whatever. But when you get a little more comfortable, you start showing some personality. And then once Joe shows that, I think that'll really be it for Michelle. And I think she trusts Joe. I think she and Joe have been building

trust on this trip. And she even said like you remind earlier, she said the way he's kind of quiet reminds me of my dad. So you see, it's kind of setting up that he's this much more substantive like slow like carefully built connection versus with nate it's like there's just this raw chemistry but i think it's got to be really scary to be like what if this shatters and like what do i know about nate and how much do i feel like i can like trust him when he is so charming i think it's really hard to trust charismatic people. There's also an element

of, and we've praised Nate for this, how when Jamie was doing his bullshit and Nate was so unthreatened. Nonchalant. Nonchalant. There's an element of maybe he just doesn't care all that much.

But he clearly cared about Joe at this date. Enough to like make a joke about being out I didn't get any like Nate's truly threatened by Joe

where like I think they're friends. Yeah, we haven't seen Nate. I think Nate and Joe quite like each other. Well, I think they both I think there's sort of this like mutual understanding

where I think both of them have felt very secure in their connection with Michelle from an early like they feel like they found their footing early and so I think the two of them that's sort of like okay, very secure in their connection with Michelle from an early, like they feel like they found their footing early. And so I think the two of them, that's sort of like, okay, we're in a similar boat.

Yeah. So I do think, but that energy, that too cool for school feeling, I think as the season progresses, you're kind of like, why are you too cool for school? Yeah. It's like, it's very... Again, I don't think it's fake, but I do think it's disconcerting. We haven't seen Nate be

truly humbled on this show. Everything rolled. And part of that is to his credit. He let all the skippy stuff just absolutely roll off his back. No stress. I know Michelle's going to handle it. But I do think, had we seen Nate be a little bit more shaken, I would have a lot more. He was a little pissy on that date.

I will say that. Yeah, but more because of Skip. But he didn't, he was frustrated, he was agitated, but he wasn't insecure. He wasn't threatened at any point in time. And I think I would feel a lot more secure with Nate's like good energy charisma if I'd also seen him, if I'd seen the other side of him. But I feel like the part of it is that it's like,

I don't know what that looks like. I don't know what an insecure Nate looks like because he's gotten value. He's got the first impression rose. He's like been very confident this whole time. And like, I think Nate's the kind of person who has like, you know, he works in sales. He's super tall. He's super good looking. He has just like really good energy. I think he's the kind of guy who things tend to go right for, which is not a knock against him. But it makes me wonder like what happens when things go wrong? Like how do you say about Thomas with great, with great power comes great. Yeah. It's like the same thing. You're too, you're too attractive, Nate. Show me some vulnerability. Well, I, and to your point, I think I agree with you in a sense that I think Nate probably is a really nice, great guy. I mean, I don't know him at all,

but there hasn't been any kind of crack in the armor. You need a crack. And I can see cracks when people can't see cracks on this show. And I just can't see a crack with Nate. And that doesn't mean it's not there, but

he could just be not as into Michelle as Joe is. And I think eventually Michelle could, couldn't can sense that. Totally. Right. And maybe she already does.

Yeah. And I think especially like if Michelle's so much of what she, she's shared as like being like kind of her big core thing that she's working with as her insecurity is like feeling overlooked. I think like Nate is kind of the kind of guy who's never been overlooked. Like he's so charismatic and hot. And so I wonder if there's, even though now Michelle is charismatic, hot, and so much more, like, I wonder if there's a certain like dynamic there of being like, do you, can you relate to me in a way where Joe is like more quiet and you know, he's opened up about more adversity.

I think Joe's the ying to Michelle's yang. I think they are a good balance of opposites, but also plenty of reasons to relate to one another. It's a nice fit where Nate, like we said, sexy, charming're both kind of extroverted you know they might step over each other in that sense nate might not have the ability to really dig deep which eventually i think i think michelle likes and needs totally a partner the substance because you see the way and also with joe it's like the little things where he's like so good with the calves.

Like watching him bottle feed the calf on the group date, I was like, this is a tender man. But then you also see how like the basketball dates. It's just the little things.

Like caring for farm animals that will never happen again in our relationship. Here's a wrinkle. Rodney could be top two. I agree. If Nate has his little- I think Nate could go home third Joe versus Rodney

yeah I think that's possible that would be really competitive the realization of Nate being like a nice guy but like you know not something that when it gets down to like engagement talk like Michelle is just like trying to pull

from Nate trying to pull from Nate and Nate just can't get there for whatever reason but Nate said he was into her he was like I'm falling for you like da da da like we had that whole conversation

we're acting like he's not made his intentions clear or like his emotion toward her clear we're acting like when it gets down to talking about actual engagement and things move

in hyper speed you go from like, at this point in the season, the producers, hometowns, are going to meet your family, meet your family. And the conversations around engagement and marriage are going to start being nonstop

and things will get that much more serious. And you think Joe's going to be completely fine with that? I just think Michelle, specifically with Nate, there's a chance that when things get really serious and he has to start talking about futures and planning and engagement,

he'll say all the right things. But Michelle won't believe him. And it won't be like Martin or Jamie saying wrong things. It'll just be, and it'll come across as nice. We won't really know, but I think at the end of the day,

Michelle might just be, but I feel safer and I believe Rodney more than I believe Nate. And sometimes I think depending on if like the next bachelor is not part of the equation, I think sometimes the lead wants to send home the Nates sooner to make their final decision a little easier

on themselves. Because maybe Rodney is always that person that's been surprised. Michelle's never really thought she was going to pick him. Totally. But every time she hangs out with Rodney, she's just like, this guy just keeps fucking showing up.

He keeps fucking showing up. Well, it's like Justin in Katie's season. Suddenly Justin was like top two. Yeah. We're like, where's he been? And so he'll never pass Joe. But to help Michelle solidify her decision for Joe over Nate, she will pick Rodney over Nate.

That's interesting because I feel like if it's Nate and Joe in the final, she'd go with Joe because of the gut feeling of knowing she can trust. I think either way she's going to pick Joe. But I could see her picking Rodney over Joe. Again, we agree. We agree that wouldn't surprise

us. We acknowledge that wouldn't be the biggest upset in the history of the best rat totally but we're i'm still picking joe okay yeah i hear i i think it's just like you see how like beautifully their lives would blend together yeah it just makes a lot of sense it just makes a lot of sense they're so like and you also she was horny when joe was playing basketball like i i was horny when joe was playing basketball joe's beautiful joe's beautiful and he is like he has those quiet piercing eyes oh my god i also could wish i could wear jewelry

like nate yeah that nose ring i was looking at watching that really taste and then the cross earring yeah it's like nate is from austin in a big way that's why can we talk about Olu for a second yeah the first time I think in the history of the show he snitched in a likable way he snitches every episode but it was finally worthwhile

you're never like oh fucking snitch you're like I really like Olu so much integrity so I really like Olu. So much integrity. Oh my God. So much integrity on Olu. Just, yeah.

I mean, he's a little gossipy, but it was for a good reason this episode, but he's done that every episode. Every time someone goes on a one-on-one, I hope they don't come back. He does it in a way that makes me feel like this is more about high character rather than about

his insecurity. Maybe he has me fooled. And I feel like him, like the facade of him talking shit is more a reflection of how obedient he would be

in a producer interview where they're like, so do you hope he comes back? Like I feel like Olu would just like follow instructions and be like, I hope he doesn't come back. I don't think he's going to come back.

No, I think he's a little s back no I think he's a little sassy I think that's a part of it he's got me sold that his this isn't a snitch is more about the he's actually being a protective nurturing type of soul rather than selling it as protecting

but really just insecure and you could tell when Martin was saying all the fuck shit that he was like the way you could see in Olu's eyes that he was like really upset that someone was talking about his girlfriend that way. Also, I don't think he'd accuse Olu of being insecure when he showed up knowing there's a 50-50 chance he goes home wearing that blazer.

Oh my God. I don't know. That's a confident man bold no one's saying he's insecure well you yeah

I said he was a little snitch he's a little gossipy bitch but I didn't say he was insecure that would that is an insecure person totally if you're a gossipy

snitchy little bitch new merch that's coming from a place of insecurity 100% I don't know i want to ask him some questions he's got me if he was secure enough maybe he'd be uh doing the nate thing where it's like oh i'm not gonna even talk about i'm not gonna acknowledge it i'm so above it but he's not it's not about it's just that he he knows he's not rochelle's, like, he's aware of the lack

of connection. Is he? Again, that's what I think. I don't, I could be wrong. I don't think Olu has the ability

to come to Paradise and be a villain. Not at all. No, I don't think so. Although, I don't know that I would say, I would have said Ivan

had the ability to come to Paradise and be a villain. You know? I don't think Ivan was, I did. Well, I don't know that I would say, I would have said Ivan had the ability to come to Paradise and be a villain. You know? I don't think Ivan was. I did. Well, I don't think he was like necessarily a villain, but he was definitely like at the center of some drama.

But to that point, I could have seen, Ivan is very confident in himself. You could suggest cocky. I think we're saying this after Paradise. I feel like if we remember like i just remember when we enter when i you weren't you guys weren't here but when i interviewed him there was a guy who believed in his abilities and and for a lot of reasons rightfully so but that can easily come across as cocky on reality sure so like i wasn't mind blown that we saw this hyper-confident person who...

I don't see that from Olu. I don't know. And I guess... Oh, Rick. I guess he goes home. Rick. And... Rick.

Still, we know more about Rick... Than we do Clayton. ...and I'm more invested in Rick's love story than Clayton's. And Rick looks like he's always about to pass out. And so that's really saying something. Rick like was an extra on the Vampire Diaries back in the day. Who would you rather date? Rick or Clayton?

Who would you rather hook up with? Clayton. I feel like I'd break Rick. What? He looks small and sad. He does look a little fragile. Emotionally fragile. I don't think he's physically fragile.

He looks a little way fish. He constantly looks like he's giving blood. I feel like... I don't know. I don't think either of them are guys... You don't get to see none of them. Yeah, this is not like, would you sleep with either of them?

It's who would you rather hook up with? Okay, would you rather? You're a desert island. You're like, you got two options of men. That's the only way you survive is by having sex. I don't know. Who would you rather go on a date with? Well, I just feel like there's a chance that Clayton's really bad in bed.

Not from a bad way, but just from like a... Just be hyper athletic yeah like I feel like I like Clayton could rush the foreplay and he could not

you know I don't I'm not saying this definitively but I could see he doesn't read as generous suave

suave in the moment well yeah because we haven't seen him have any chemistry with Michelle versus like with Rick it's like

the man with his head on a platter is going to be more suave he interestingly but him and Michelle Well, yeah, because we haven't seen him have any chemistry with Michelle versus like with Rick. It's like, by God. The man with his head on a platter is going to be more suave. He interestingly, but him and Michelle had some chemistry. Do you think Clayton yells out when he climaxes? Yes. Like a Viking. He's going to wear the like the helmet thing they gave him. There's almost zero chance that Clayton comes on this podcast now.

We've been a little hard on him. Sorry. And again, Clayton comes on this podcast now we've been a little hard on him sorry and again Clayton we think you're swell we do I said I would rather hook up with you Clayton it's almost unfair 100% of the criticism that's going to come his way is not his fault

it's because he had a target on his back for being bachelor and being boring love you love you kisses one one thing i noticed uh before we wrap up what was the analogy with what were they doing that michelle was like this is like love was it farming i'm turning butter turning it was like turning it's like she was like it takes a while and it doesn't pay off at first, but at the end you get something beautiful. And I realized that when it comes to the Bachelor in Love, any task you can give a love analogy.

Totally. The manure. If the group date was riding an elevator. Sometimes love, it goes up and it goes down. And sometimes you press the buttons and other times other people press the buttons. And sometimes you just get stuck and you have to figure out how to go up or down. But when those doors open, you got to get out and you have to like figure out how to, you know, go up or down. But when those doors open, you got to get out.

Yeah. You got to go for it. Even if you're not ready, you have to go. Like sometimes, you know, what if the group date was crossing the street? Yeah.

Sometimes you have to wait for the right sign. Yeah. Before proceeding. Yeah. Totally. If you see a red light, stop. Red flags,

red lights. Literally anything. Truly. You have to swerve through traffic, stop. Red flags, red lights. Literally anything. Truly. You have to swerve through traffic, swerve through different, yeah. God. Eating a sandwich. Sometimes, you know, you have to eat around the crust. Yeah.

Sometimes it's about keeping it together. You're not sure what you're biting into. Yeah. It's all about holding it together. Yeah. You gotta really protect. In the craziest of circumstances. Yeah.

It's finding the white bread while also savoring the pesto. It's surely anything. Anything is a metaphor. Literally anything. Although I was impressed about the training of the brother. Yeah. Well, when you find out that Joe literally grew up on a dairy farm, like this boy knows what he's

doing. Layers. What a flex that he, because I think usually it's like you have group dates where someone is in their element and it's very obvious. Like, you know, like they go to Viking Stadium, Clayton's the football player or like whenever there's, you know, the basketball date with Joe and like this is another one where like Joe was very clearly in his element, but he's so confident and quiet. We didn't even know that. Who was the standout on your farm date? Obviously, Corinne was out of her element. Who was in their element?

Christina. Oh, yeah. Love her. Yeah. That makes sense. She's hardcore. Christina really is. Wasn't that whole Wisconsin?

You went to Wisconsin early because of weather or something? There was a hurricane. Interesting. I know. I ran into someone. I was in a bride. I was like in a bridal party. And one of the other bridesmaids was like,

oh, you work for Nick Vial. I was like one of the people in Wisconsin that they like had stand at like your concert date or whatever. Like you went to a show. Yeah. And she was like, she was like,

we had to listen to the same song like eight times in a row so that they could get the different angles, but nothing but good things to say about you. TV. Movie magic. Should we talk at all about like Brandon meeting the parents? I guess we already covered it. I just wasn't sure if Michelle's dad was seeing if he had a boner

because he clearly looked down after they stood up. Those were his swim trunks though. He was clocking the fact that Michelle had gone into his closet and given Brandon his swim trunks. It's also like, can you at that point, can you really blame him? Michelle was on his lap. They were making out in a hot tub.

At that point. I love how the show really tries to sell this is all an incomparability. Oh my god, we didn't tell them. Not show up. Would you wear your girlfriend's,

Natalie's dad's swim trunks? Sure. I mean now, but at the beginning? Well, I wouldn't. More importantly, I wouldn't get all weird and not and refuse to wear them yeah that's true they were like oh my god ew your dad's like i wouldn't make a big production about like i'm like okay i guess they're just swimsuits what do you think he you know it's a weird battle to pick yeah it just feels like would you wear your boyfriend's mom's swimsuit? Again, it's framing.

Would I go out of my way to do it? No. If it was my only option, would I throw a fit and refuse to put them on? Yeah. Like, also no. Also no. It's true.

I would just kind of like roll with it. Yeah. But I feel like it was nice to see Michelle's parents. That was very cool. Michelle's dad. Oh my God. So kind. Michelle's mom. I feel like it was nice to see Michelle's parents. That was very cool. Michelle's dad. Oh my God. So kind. Michelle's mom.

I'm like, that is someone you want talking to customer service on your behalf. Michelle's mom. I was like, this woman takes no prisoners in the best way possible. Like she seemed very kind, but like no BS. It's a delightful family. They've raised a very impressive woman. Michelle even said that though. She was like, my dad typically doesn't have to...

If my dad's ever in a position where he has to stand up for himself or like say something, my mom's always right there in front of him standing up for him. Like she said, that was kind of their dynamic

and I saw it. But I also love that her mom mentioned how, you know, it wasn't just like a platitude or something you say. She said, he's always had my back

and she mentioned moments where that decision wasn't always easy. Where you assume that you'd want to always have your wife's back, but there's a lot of married people out there who might not feel like their partner always has their back. And having her mom say that, it felt real and substantive. You could tell when she was saying that, she was thinking of specific moments of when

he stepped up and she felt protected and safe by him and it validated their connection. Absolutely. That was cool. It's like they wake up and choose each other every day, Michelle's parents. parents yeah which we love I also one thing

two things about that one I thought it was so funny when Brandon sees Michelle's senior photo and it's like your teeth are so straight it's like were they not before Brandon

like such a specific thing to point out I don't know your really nice senior photo yeah I was like Michelle I was like of course

Michelle looks like glowing in her senior photo also really big yeah big senior photo it's like that and it was like I in her senior photo also really really big yeah big senior photo it's like that and it was like I believe it was on a water feature there's definitely oh yeah there's like high production why are senior photos always on the stairwell oh because it's like climbing the steps of life I walking out to the next chapter in my dad's office

or my parents office and I like to joke it's like they're like that's why we pay the bills right there what are you doing in your senior photo um I am well it's first off it's life size my sister and I have life size ones next to each other they're big and I'm pretty sure I'm like laying down in a windowsill and I have like nude heels on in the back that are like crisscrossed at the ankle and I'm wearing like a sweater in your dad's office yeah my sister has one next to it and she's like hugging a tree or something but i'm drinking dunkin donuts in my senior photo the hugging of a tree classic senior photo pose her hand is like on it but also like why so bizarre because you need something to do with your hands

like it feels weird to just stand there i guess i don't know the other thing i think it was interesting that brandon asked michelle's parents for because that okay and i think that's again part of it where i'm like he's so in love with her but i don't think michelle is the kind of person who would really i think on one hand i could see her really appreciating like the respect that it showed but i also think she's the kind of person who's like, I make choices for myself. My parents don't give me away. I choose. But he didn't ask for their permission. He asked for their blessing. Right.

Okay. It's different. I think you could tell from the way the parents answered it by being like, if she chooses you. Yeah, but that's the classic response. Right. It's also the response to someone you probably give of like, you're not worried that they will be picked.

It's like, whatever my daughter wants, which is not you. Totally. Right. Nice one, Sue. But in fairness to Brendan, he didn't ask for their permission. He just said, I would love for you guys.

It would be nice. And that's a valid want to like, ultimately your daughter is her own woman. She can make her own decision. But like, I would love to know that you are supportive of this. Yeah, I really respect the decision. I think it was just like the way he went about phrasing it was like

another time that I remember being like... He has no chill. No chill. Zero, zero chill. But he's still very charming. Yeah. Like no chill, but a lot of ice cream well 100 get engaged on paradise oh my day two like day two of paradise that would be the rose ceremony he'll be like can i when can i propose he'll give a rose and be like end of the season you gotta you got to wait you know so i'll do it. I'll do it now. I'll do it right now.

He's like, I have a ring on me. We'll see. Can you imagine Brandon being a Paradise villain? No. I don't, but so sweet. Yeah, because again, that's the big thing about Brandon.

What is there without the puppy love? What is his personality like when he's not like chasing after this woman he thinks the world of? More than Clayton. And is he like, does he get complacent? Cause like that's a, if he's going to like pull some stunts on Paradise,

it's like how complacent will he get? Cause it's like very becoming to watch him like this like lovesick boy. But like if he goes in a little bit more confident, like how's he going to behave? We'll see. We don't know. All right, ladies. Well, thank you for coming.

Time flies when you're having fun. Pretty cool. Time flies when you're telling pee-pee stories, Ellie. That's my go-to. Well, thanks for listening, guys. Make sure to tune in. Well, the Michelle episode is almost certainly out already, unless you couldn't help but wait and listen to this Tuesday night. Again, Black Friday merch sale. Check us out.

25% off code VIALL at vilefiles.com. We are back on Monday with a great-ass Nick, Charlie Jordan. Next Wednesday, more Bachelor recap. Hometowns edition. Hometowns. Is it hometowns or is Wednesday, more Bachelor recap, hometowns edition. Is it hometowns or is it tell all? Probably hometowns. I forget. Doesn't matter. We'll be here breaking it down. And other than that, have a very wonderful, happy

Thanksgiving, safe travels, and we will see you... Well, whenever. We're around. Bye.