The Viall Files - E353 Bachelorette Recap With Emma Gray

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

We’re breaking down all the Bachelorette drama with Emma Gray, Editor at Huffpost and Co-Host of the #LoveToSeeIt Podcast. On this Recap, we start off by diving back into the Hot Goss that’s circulating around Bach Nation. We first talk about whether or not Katie’s recent posts are inconsiderate and how self-aware she is if she’s feeding into the drama. We then dive into the "Men Tell All" where we break down who of the contestants are acting or if this level of emotion actually came out. After, we talk about how many of these men knew that there wasn’t a connection with Michelle, so they have been going all out to potentially get a spot on Paradise. Speaking of future endeavors, we reflect on Tayshia’s walk-off after breaking her silence on Zac, and how playing into the drama may hurt her future chances of being a host. Lastly, we close out by discussing the BIZARRE teaser for Clayton, where he reveals that he’s had sex with both women at a rose ceremony.  “Michelle is an educator. She can tell when someone doesn’t understand the assignment.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: ScoreMaster: Visit http://www.ScoreMaster.com/VIALL to get started today. Article: Go to http://www.Article.com/VIALL to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.  Ritual: Go to http://www.Ritual.com/VIALL to get 10% off during your first 3 months. RumHaven: Discover more recipes that will help you Sip into Paradise at http://www.RumHaven.com Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @emmaladyrose See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to an exciting new episode of the Vile Files Bachelorette Recap Edition. And we are breaking down the tell-all. And I guess our new thing is to also cover the hot goss and bachelor nation, courtesy of Allie. And boy, do we have an episode for you. Mostly because my dear friend Emma Gray is with me in the studio. Such a treat. Such a treat.

You are, I think, the second Bachelor podcast I've ever done with you or in Claire's Here to Make Friends podcast that is now... Love to see it. Love to see it. Yeah, we met you way back in the day. Oh, gee. Yeah.

And I got my podcasting chops from you and Claire. I like them. I look at you now. I vividly remember doing your podcast and thinking, I like this thing. I like this talking and really giving an opportunity to speak my truth. I could do this. I feel good with this mic. This works for me.

But you're in town and I, you know, you came over for pizza night and I was like, why don't you come over and, you know, you came over for pizza night and I was like, why don't you come over and, you know, recap with me. Yeah, discuss our least favorite episode of every season of The Bachelor. But we're going to make the, we promise you an explosive recap despite the tell-all being just an episode of tremendously bad acting by truly everyone.

Just really bad performances. Everyone but Caitlin? Caitlin, I don't think, attempted to act. But everyone else, I felt like it was just a bad acting. They all came with notebooks full of little one-liners. They were prepared, Nick. Yeah. Before we get into the recap,

just some housekeeping notes. Keep listening after this episode if you're not listening on Tuesday. Hello, Teffy is with us on Wednesday. An explosive interview. A wonderfully fun and entertaining woman. That's all I can say. You won't want to miss it.

Be sure to tune in to that. Anything else? Check out our merch line, our introverted line, which Emma's boyfriend is a big fan of. I was wearing the introverted hoodie at dinner and he was like,

nice. Speaks to me. All right. What do we got, Allie? What are we talking about? Well, the general rule of, sorry, the general rule. What are do we got, Allie? What are we talking about? The general rule of... Sorry. The general rule... What are we talking about, Allie? And?

I like to set upfront expectations with my audience. I think that's important. We talk about relationships a lot on this show. It's always important to set upfront expectations. Since we started doing Hot Goss, we have an unwritten golden rule. We only respond to things that people in Bachelor Nation platform themselves. If they put it on their social, if they talk about it in an interview, fair game. We don't respond to rumors on Reddit, or we don't respond to rumors on like Demois or Hearsay but if they platform it fair game

to have a conversation about. Sounds fair to me. That's that's our golden rule on the show. Definitely a rule I wish I would have known about before

accumulating this gossip. I saw your list. What is Okay. Well, the first one is very much a real hard fact. We all know that the coming out Colton documentary is out on Netflix. Um,

I won't be watching. I, I have not watched it. I don't necessarily want to support him, but I hear these two lovely ladies have watched a little bit. I watched a little bit. I dip my toe in. It's one of those things that I have such mixed feelings about because it's like,

I don't really think he should have been given the show in the first place. But if it exists, I would like it to be decent and do a good job of telling his story. And hopefully, I don't know, shedding some light on. I think Colton's a bad guy who doesn't deserve a platform. Yeah. I think it's like, especially because like there's on one hand, I do think that we've seen the show become a lot more like progressive and show like a lot more like diversity, like not just like racially, but also sexuality wise.

Like we had like Demi or by Queen. And I think on one hand, I appreciate an attempt to connect with people who are sometimes not targeted with queer media. I think it's meant to be people's first gay person that they watch. I think if you are a gay person or you've met a gay person, probably not going to be that groundbreaking. It's like queerness 101. Yeah. Intro to queer featuring Colton. It's like principles of queerness, like not even the intro class,

like even that math class below. Yeah, it's remedial queer for white people. Sure, sure. And so if that's you, and I think if it's extending an olive branch to people who had never considered that before, maybe that's a net positive. But I do agree that like, why Colton?

Yeah. I just, yeah. I hate it that it's like, like that shouldn't be the example for people who are. Right. Cause I think there's already. Seeing it for say like the first time someone like it's like what he did to

Cassie has been underreported. And I don't know if anyone will fully understand the scope unless they talk to Cassie has been underreported and I don't know if anyone will fully understand the scope unless they talk to Cassie which I have and I've tried to give I just don't think

he's a good guy I'll keep it that simple I don't think he's a bad guy and I also yeah and I think it's like there's a history of people associating

or like using like queerness like you saw how Kevin Spacey like tried to use being gay as an explanation for some really bad for abuse yeah and I think it's like really like you know as a member of the queer community I think it sucks Like you saw how Kevin Spacey like tried to use being gay as an explanation for some really bad behavior.

Yeah. And I think it's like really like, you know, as a member of the queer community, I think it sucks when you see someone platformed who has a history of bad behavior or who is like muddying the water when there are so many queer people out there who are very deserving of a platform and have like wonderful, interesting things to say who haven't stalked someone, you know? Right. I know. In episode two, Michael Sam is in it. And I was like, what about just a nice docu-series about Michael Sam? I would love to hear more from that guy. All right. Let's move on from Colton. All righty. So we have a new friend group. This is not something they necessarily call themselves, but Katie has kind of implied that she approves of the title. They're called the Controversial have a new friend group uh this is not something they necessarily call themselves but katie has kind of implied that she approves of the title they're called the controversial crew and they

live in san diego who and it's made up of so they don't i think there's a very clear distinction they did not give themselves they did not give themselves that name however katie has kind of been like yeah yeah i fit i like it it fits No one, have they, since been given the name, have they embraced the name? I don't think they've used it themselves. However, Anna Redman made a TikTok about Katie where, you know, the sound that's like, Stormy, you look like mommy, baby. Okay. I'm not unfamiliar. Okay.

And it's basically like, oh, you're just like me. Like Anna took a video of Katie and it was like when like suddenly like bachelor nation, like everyone in bachelor nation hates you. And it like zoomed in on Katie's face. And she was like, stormy, you look like mommy baby. Cause everyone hated Anna. So I feel like they're really embracing the fact that, I mean, we talked about it a few weeks ago of like, does Katie know that people don't like her? I think she knows now. She's part of this controversial crew made up of Katie, John, Anna, Chris, and Alana,

Jason, Tammy, and Spencer. And they all hang out together. He was like a newcomer. He was like a week to, yeah, literally not inconsequential. I don't know him, but he wasn't a big player. If they're not embraced, you can't control nicknames that people might give you. There's that. inconsequential i don't know him but he wasn't a big if they're not embraced if they're not like

they you can't control nicknames that people might totally there's that but if they are in fact embracing it that would be a bit tragic it reminded me you know like you know when we hit because it's obviously a play off the uh quarantine crew with hannah brown Tyler and Matt James. And it reminded me of years ago when like Bluetooth headsets came out. And by Bluetooth, I mean like the things guys would wear in their ears. And when it first came out, you'd go to the bar and you'd see like guys wearing these Bluetooth headsets as like accessories. And it reminded me, I was at a Barnes and Noble one day, this was years ago.

And I saw a magazine with a cover of Brad Pitt on the cover wearing a Bluetooth headset. I was like, what is this? And the caption was, he can barely pull it off and you're not him. And this reminds me of that in the sense that when Hannah Brown and Tyler and Matt James had the quarantine crew. They were coming off like the height of their bachelor fame, which arguably has never been higher for anyone. You still had lots of bachelor nation hoping that Tyler and, and Hannah would come together. And,

and we were, we were in the beginning of a pandemic in which no one knew it was going on. And sure. It was a little silly, but like they pulled it off because it was going on. And sure, it was a little silly, but like they pulled it off because it was Tyler and Hannah Brown. And also everyone was stuck at home

and literally desperate for any entertainment. And it was like, oh, could Hannah and Tyler finally, could the one positive of this terrible, you know, pandemic be that Tyler and Hannah find love in quarantine and it was like oh okay like that's kind of hopeful i'll subscribe for like a moment and like this is not it right we're no longer in lockdown i feel like they should know that it's just been a series of so what do we think of like

Katie's social media in general? So that leads to my next point. Oh. Is Katie posted a video of her and John dancing and he like picks her up and spins her around and she put it to the sound

that's like, have you ever been in love? I don't think so. Do you want me to describe it to you? And it's like a video of the two of them and I'm like, this is so rude to Blake.

It's also not May of 2021. She's allowed to be happy, but yes. But she started responding to comments. So people are commenting. She's always done that. That's always been. And she's like, she's really going to bat for them. She's like, I always loved him as like a friend.

And then suddenly it like catapulted into romantic love. It was just an emotional affair. Exactly. It wasn't a physical love. And she's like, oh my gosh, like I've never been happier. I'm just sharing my love.

Like this came out of no, like long comments back to people. So she's really just, she's going to bat. Not smart. We talked about like you can't,

unless Katie's emotionally stunted, which I don't think she is, then she can't argue that she just woke up one day and realized that she loved him. That's what 15-year-olds do. I just don't think that's how human relationships actually work. Certainly not adult ones. Right. And it's also, things are messy. I think it's okay if the two of them

had some, you know, underlying feelings for each other that they started to realize. And then Katie was like, okay, clearly I need to end

the relationship I'm in. Like that is fine. Sure. I guess this is more how she goes about it, right? Right. It's on her social.

The question is, the social is cringe. Is Katie not, question, poll, is, is, are Katie's choices on social The social is cringe. Is Katie not... Question, poll. Is... Are Katie's choices on social not smart?

Or just inconsiderate? Because it seems to be one of the two. Like, she is engaged to Blake. Right? Season's airing, filming. While she's, like, posting, like... I don't know. They're just, like, shots of know what would you like they're just like

shots of john in her stories of him smiling like a like should i post of natalie like here's my girl just wow she's so beautiful today and like appreciation posts and she's literally engaged this guy who now we know she's in a relationship with who she wants us to believe she was just friends with. So is it just not smart or just wildly inconsiderate to the person you were at least engaged to at the time? Because there's a lot of things she does that seems to be either not smart

or thoughtless about how it might impact someone. And what do we think? Which one is it more likely? Is it less about being considerate for Blake and does she know having a social media presence even before she went on the show that we're all sitting here talking about it? Does she just want the buzz?

Sure, but there's like, yeah. Maybe it doesn't matter how Blake feels about it because she just cares about social. I would put that into the thoughtless. But not necessarily thoughtless to the point where she knows it's not going to be a smart strategy. Inconsiderate.

Yeah. Inconsiderate to Blake. So it's either not smart, thinking like, oh, I didn't realize. I'm sorry. I wouldn't have done that if I know it would hurt you. Or I don't give a fuck. I want the attention. I think she has a little bit of a case of like main character syndrome. She's in a rom-com

and her social media reflects the idea that she is the lead in a rom-com and her social media reflects the idea that she is the lead in a rom-com. And we all know in a rom-com, the like stepping stone guy just like disappears

into the ether. But unfortunately for her, like these are real humans. And yet here we are. We are talking about it. I mean, if that's the goal, we are discussing it. You know, it reminds me of Tiger King. Sure. New merch. Do you see where I'm going with this? No.

We watched, I mean, I was, when Tiger King, I'm pretty sure when Tiger King launched the first season on Netflix, I think I was scrolling through Netflix when it came on and I watched it and I was as fascinated as anyone. I was telling people, you got to watch this. Okay, so you're claiming that you discovered Tiger King. No, I'm just saying I was an early adapter and I liked it so much that I was advocating for it. I was like, you got to watch this.

Sounds like you discovered it. This is a train wreck. I'm sure me and literally 3 million people were simultaneously on it at the same time. Early adopter. I'm just saying I advocated for it. And you knew. And I embraced it. I binged. I mean, I watched the whole thing

and maybe two sittings. Not to brag or anything. And so it was obviously wildly popular. And yet, as we all know, tragic. It wasn't necessarily popular because it was well-written or you had these really good characters that you rooted for. It was just a hot, steamy mess of tragic people. And I watched it. I went through it. And I feel like that's where

we're at right now with Katie's social media and her story is that, yeah, we're talking about it. We're intrigued. And yet Tiger King 2 has come out. I have no interest. Maybe I'll watch it. But now it's just sad. Now I just feel like I'm just going to be like, you know, like it's just, it's tragic. I know the appeal of watching Tiger King 2 and just being like, I mean, I know like it's, this is now not fun for me to watch. I feel like that's direction is going. Like in the sense that it's lost its novelty in a lot of ways. Well, cause no, right now people are talking, we're talking about Katie's social media. Yeah. And he said, we're sitting here saying, it's a bit inconsiderate. It's a bit tragic.

It's a mess. No one's liking it. But yet we are talking about it. Totally. And we're in season one of Tiger King when it comes to Katie's social media. It's still intriguing. It's still intriguing.

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and I know I don't need to tell you this, like I'm sure you've seen like the terrible atrocious garbage that people will like spew at public figures. And so I think it's, it maybe lends itself to a mentality of like, fuck it. Okay.

It's a war. I'll participate. And so I kind of, I wonder how much of this is maybe like Katie feeling like nobody is being like, nobody's playing fair with her. And so she's just going to do what she can to get her bag and stay relevant.

I think that, I mean, that's certainly, that's certainly a thought that she might have. I think she's had plenty of opportunities to be well-liked and received. She's been given many second chances that

people aren't even aware of. So like, yeah, I mean, you're right. I think she still wonders why me, but she's making these choices. She's putting it out there. She's platforming the stuff. And we're talking about it.

She just as easily could have been engaged to Blake. Met John. Of course, she met Blake on a reality TV show, forced minimum moments with anyone. So the fact that she fell out of love with Blake and fell in love with John is a normal, totally normal and normal thing. And an understandable thing.

Be happy. Like at no point am I like shitting on the fact that, you know, she's with John, like they seem happy. That's great. He's probably great. It's just how you go about it.

Right. It's, it's the, in the presentation. And I, I feel that it could have been done in a way that was a little more respectful to the other real people involved. Even if she was like,

I got to stay with Blake through the show. Like, I don't want to deal with, I, I, I empathize with that big time, but like maybe the not like not just promoting this budding relationship with john on social media that would ultimately start rumors you know and i don't think

she's stupid that way you know like i don't think she didn't think about that she clearly embraces the intention she she clearly like you... She could have just as easily not mentioned to anyone, let alone the internet, that she was developing this friendship with John. And then after she broke up with Blake, she just as easily could have enjoyed John

behind the scenes for forever. I mean, for six, twelve months, she could not... She didn't need to show him up at events or red carpets or promote them or, you know. Also, they actually could have just gone to dinner as long as they didn't make out.

It wouldn't have been weird because everyone is aware that they're friends. Yeah. It could have been like a softer launch of the relationship. And I, look, I also get why they would want

to just put it out there so that they can live their lives. But you have to know that it's going to invite some feedback. Yeah. Especially when you're highly critical of other people's characters, you know, like Thomas. Shall we? Shall we? Because first off, I did want to say before I jump into Thomas, Katie did say...

Thomas is on the menu? Yes, he's on the menu. Did he do anything? Well, hold on. One more tidbit on Katie. She did say that John has Aunt Lindsay's approval. Just putting that out there. What an interesting tidbit.

Rough for Blake. Another, right? But Thomas- Is it though? Is it though? I mean, I think it seems that everyone will be better off in this new, this new arrangement. What if Aunt Lindsay was just really hangry that day? You know, like what if she's like a fine woman and that was like her absolute worst showing?

Because like there have been times where like I will look like every now and then where I'll be like, I was so, so, so cranky and really harsh. On TV? No. No. No. And not usually to my son or my niece's fiance.

But you know what I'm saying? Where I'm like, Aunt Lindsay feels larger in life to me. Yeah. But then we see like a text thread.

I don't know. Yeah, it's possible. Or maybe Katie is Aunt Lindsay. Maybe they're just the same person. Well, Thomas went possible. Or maybe Katie is Aunt Lindsay. Maybe they're just the same person. Well, Thomas went home to Minnesota with Becca for Thanksgiving. Ooh, how'd it go?

Good. They took some lovely photos in her home. They were hanging out with, I'm assuming, her nieces or nephews, little kids. They were all bundled up against the cold. They seem incredibly happy and truly real. Yeah, Becca had a really cute post of like how excited she was, like introduce him to like the people she loves the most and like spend Thanksgiving with her family,

like after last year in the pandemic. But didn't he want to be the bachelor of giving the opportunity? Oh, Mr. Thomas. Yeah. I'm kidding. I like them.

Thomas is really growing on me. The more I don't know him that much. I've met him a handful of times. The more I meet him, I'm just like, you're just a nice, dorky guy who's beautiful. And that's who he is in the best possible way. That's lovely to hear. Hannah Brown is a New York Times bestselling author

based on God Bless This Mess. Congrats to Hannah Brown. Good for Hannah. There we go, Hannah Brown. And finally, Amanda Stanton from Ben Higgins season with The Two Little Girls

was engaged. Good for Amanda. So good for Amanda. Nice. We love Amanda. Yeah. Oh, and it was so cute. He also gave her

daughter's rings when he proposed to her. Oh, that's really cute. Which I think is such an important gesture to include the kids. Yeah, that's beautiful. I haven't talked to Amanda in a while,

but I should reach out. Slide back in, get that wedding invite. Bust out the suit one more time. I've always really enjoyed Amanda. She's a really nice person. So yeah, that's our bachelor tea. Do you think there's anything about, from knowing Amanda

and seeing the way she handled motherhood on the show that gives you any clues about, or gives you any insight into what it would take for Michael to be able to be the bachelor. Like how have you from seeing someone who was a parent and like trying to get that balance, what do you think it means for a potential Michael season? Nothing, I guess. I don't know. I mean, it's, I'm not sure how to answer that. I know Amanda with her time on the show as all parents do, all public parents, parents are very opinionated

on how people should parent. And you have a lot of parent shamers on the internet. I know Amanda has dealt with her fair share of critics. But from everything I could tell, she's a very thoughtful and loving mother. People act like they've never left their kids with a babysitter or a grandmother,

and that's not okay. I mean, I'm not a parent, but I would assume anytime you leave your kid at home, whether whoever's watching, no matter how much you trust them, it can be challenging and difficult, but just because you have kids doesn't mean your life stops you know uh certainly my parents lives revolved around their kids and quite honestly sometimes like i kind of feel bad you know it's like they gave so much of their lives and it's just like i'm glad they're able to enjoy things now but we we don't we don't think we should act like as soon as you have kids, as much as kids...

Right, you're no longer an independent person. You can't do anything for yourself as long as everyone's okay. So I think if Michael was given that opportunity and he said yes to it, no matter what, it's going to have its challenges and there will be people who have their opinions

and he won't be able to make everyone happy. Not much I know for sure. So yeah. But I also, I feel like there's a distinction between the fact that Amanda was on a bachelor season as opposed to like a Michael situation where he's the lead. You know, he has probably more flexibility,

similar more so to like Emily Maynard, who was the lead while being a parent. Like, I feel like there's probably a difference in what you're like he could potentially bring james with him as opposed like a contestant right yeah you're gonna have more agency to make those demands if you're the lead sure but it might not be um i think his son's in school you know there's like there's the conversations about taking your kid out of his life and his situation and disrupt what he's got going on. I don't think it's as simple as, can I bring my kid along? Because of course they would accommodate those demands.

It just might not be that simple. Do you think they would just move filming partially to Ohio? I think the show would do whatever they could within reason to make it work. But there might be limits to what they could do. Sure. But that's my thought on that. We covered all the... And that's what you missed on Glee.

We're good. All right. Well, let's get into the tell-all where everyone tried to act. No better time to make sure that your party is still hot and tropical, even though it's getting chilly outside. And Rum Haven is making that possible. Perfect for mixing to create cocktails or for enjoying on its own. Personally, I enjoy it on its own, just with a big cube of ice very delicious very refreshing it is made with real coconut water and no artificial flavors that's right so even though you're getting your

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i feel like it comes across as even more highly produced even than it used to be like the there are way more gimmicks than there used to be. And then it seems like every season ever since the past three or four years, really ever since Paradise really took off, this tryout for Paradise, that's really all it is now. And before, you kind of named it and called it out. And now it feels like it's so in your face. Although in some ways, this was like a less shouty tell-all than we've had in the past. Certainly. Has it been? Yeah. It was really only Will and Peter who were like screaming

across each other to the point where like, I couldn't even take notes on what they were saying. across each other to the point where like, I couldn't even take notes on what they were saying. So found that to be a win, but it felt like there were more little weird sketches and little planned one-liners. And that is annoying too. Yeah. I felt,

uh, I don't know if there are any winners. Like there's usually not. I mean, interestingly enough, Skippy, Chris S I call him Skippy.ris s i call him skippy i wouldn't call him a winner but if you're talking about how do you look going in versus how you looked going

out he went from like i mean i hated him i mean i do i'm not a fan and even in life i'm willing to guess he's not would not be my favorite but he definitely handled the heat as well as anyone and didn't make excuses and was as quick to apologize and didn't take the bait on on those things and i guess it's like i guess he definitely handled it better because i had such low expectations of him that he seemed to again if we're just comparing starting in any point you know i'm not saying he deserves a medal or i'm like you know what i got him got wrong no gold stars no gold stars but i do feel like he might be the only one who who didn't look even worse like will for example i liked will and after this it was was like... Yeah, he did not.

He did not do himself any favors. It was a really bad showing for Will. I feel like if we're talking winners, like Casey and Romeo, perhaps. Romeo. Romeo was the ultimate. Oh, yeah. Actually, and Rick. Rick and Romeo, but I feel like Rick was already a

presence. I disagree with the Rick and... Who's the other one? Romeo? No, Romeo. I agree a presence. I disagree with the Rick and who's the other one? Romeo? No, Romeo. I agree with Romeo. You disagree with Casey. Casey. Because they had their petty one-liners that were clearly planned and petty and arguably cruel.

Like Casey at one point said something to Peter and just because we don't like Peter is not an excuse to be mean. And, you know, you know what I'm saying? If we're talking about character. I am going to push back. I think Peter is like Peter. I think it's one thing if like you you are getting ganged up on and you're like meek and you're disengaged and like it's like obvious you're like not trying to do this right now. Peter kept talking. He kept talking.

And it was like nobody wants to hear the way you would describe the situation. I think if you're going to keep talking on national television when no one gives an F about you, you have no self-awareness. And I'm sure you're like so atrocious. And I think these people were so, so sick of him. Like, I don't think it's cruelty if you have been driven to the brink of like insanity by like someone's like bullshit for that long. It's also sort of refreshing to hear Casey just kind of be honest about like, yeah, I had to spend way too much time with this dude and he just kind of sucks.

I had to spend way too much time with this dude and he just kind of sucks. I'd rather hear that than have someone be like, this person committed the cardinal sin of arriving for the wrong reasons. And I would like to call out the tribunal in order to make a call. Like the honest thing is that if you're stuck in a house with a bunch of people,

some of them are probably going to annoy the shit out of you. Yeah, totally. But I just, he kind of just said it in a- He shit out of you. Yeah, totally. But I just, he kind of just said it in a, he was a little, a mean way. Yes. I mean,

again, if, if Peter is this like kind of obnoxious, unselfaware person who found himself on TV, that doesn't mean I have to want to hang out with them or even think they're the greatest guy, but I guess I have some empathy for his inability to see what we see as long as he's not hurting anyone.

There's a difference between, for me, Peter and Jamie, right? A hundred percent. Peter's just more obnoxious. Yeah. From what we can know of what we've been seeing, Peter just seems to be incredibly obnoxious and probably insecure. And he projects that insecurity in this very obnoxious way. And I guess I have some,

I don't feel like ganging up on that person. And it felt like a lot of ganging up. That's what tell all is, is ganging up on. And it just like, we already don't like peter we didn't like peter this ganging up just felt mean i you know and so even from rick and casey it just but i think a lot of that maybe had to do with the pizza reviews because that was the point where i was like oof i this feels different this feels like a different plane of like okay we're really going to expose this man's business.

Like, well, at first I had that first thought, like, why is this show doing this? This is crossing a line. But then it became very clear to me that Peter gave him the okay to do this. Peter was in on this,

that whole serving situation to Will. The big question for me is, did Will actually do that? Did Will post about Peter's business and send a link to a place where people could leave reviews, activating his followers to essentially legitimately try to ruin Peter's business, regardless of what you think of it? Because if Will actually did that, then whatever I thought about Will being a decent guy, he completely lost. It's one thing to be petty on a reality TV show

in which you think you're supposed to bring the drama and play a character, even though you're not. But to go after the show and continue to essentially internet bully and try to affect someone's business, not a great. Not a good look. Not a good look.

I see Will differently if that's in fact what he did and I assume he did because I don't think the show would claim that he did something outside there's a difference between doing something on set and doing it in that world versus making up a story

that didn't happen outside of that world. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, they can edit things and remove context and let the audience decide for themselves. But I would assume that if the show highlighted this on the show, that they, in fact, know that Will did, in fact, do this. And that would... Did, in fact fact incite his followers to go leave shitty reviews.

We can't prove whether those reviews were as a result I don't think but it's safe to say that Will had something to do with it and that's pretty shitty. Again not a good look. Peter and Will just both really lost me. Neither of them came off

well on the actual season. Neither of them came off well on the actual season. Neither of them came off well on the tell-all. I was just like, can we move on? I don't want to hear from either of you. Did you believe

anyone's tears? I'm like, who cried? Rodney tried to cry. Did you believe Rodney's tears? I love Rodney. I love Rodney too. I have no ill will. I'm sorry. I'll believe Rodney's tears? I love Rodney. I love Rodney too. I never want to, I have no ill will.

I'm sorry. I'll extend Rodney all the credit. I love him. Let's be objective here. We love Rodney. Was he trying to cry? I don't know. I didn't,

it didn't land to me. Like there was some obvious acting attempt there. I don't know. Maybe there was, but I didn there. I don't know. Maybe there was, but it didn't stand out to me. Cowards today. No, I feel like I was biased. I was not agreeing with you, Nick. No, I just think you have this look of like,

I don't know if I want to say anything bad about Rodney. No, I was like legitimately trying to think about whether I noticed that and I didn't. It was just when you, yeah, I don't know. It seemed like he was when you kind of give off a gasp of like, but then like no tears come out.

It's a clear sign of fake crying. And he definitely gave that, but like nothing really, it was like, oh shoot. It's like when you, when you're trying to start a lawnmower and it just, you think you got it and it just doesn't actually go like that. Do you think, I feel, I don't doubt his feelings, but I mean like how distraught he was for losing Michelle. And I think he was really into her. Do you think he thought that wouldn't be computed on television?

Like it wouldn't come across how much Michelle meant to him unless there was like emotions and tears. Like if he was trying to cry, was it because he was trying to provide a visual to what he was actually feeling? Maybe. I mean, I did again,

when you're in that world, there's you, it doesn't always come. It's not like the producers are like cry, you know, but there is a, an unspoken, like, I mean, Hey, people love a good emotional man. Show your feels.

Show your feelings, right? And there are always those highlights of like, let's watch your journey back. And they are certainly touching. And if you're watching that about yourself and you see yourself cry and be emotional, you do go back to that place. That's the thing. It doesn't seem that weird to me that you would get choked up. I'm not saying it's weird that he would get choked up

if he got choked up. I'm not questioning that. But from what I saw, I was like, it looks like he's trying to fake cry. I'm not saying I question... Maybe I'm just a sucker. If he did cry,

I'm not saying I can't believe Rodney cares. I totally get why Rodney cares. But it has been several months. He's probably moved on. He's probably fine. There's a good chance he's friends with the person Michelle picked. They're all talking and hanging out. He has moved on.

He definitely felt and liked Michelle. And now he's back here just like without tears liked Michelle. And now he's, you know, back here, just like without tears coming out. And it just seemed like, you know, some fake crying by Rodney. But we love Rodney. I don't need the Rodney fans.

God forbid. Yeah. Speaking of though, if you're saying like Rodney's probably friends with whoever Michelle picked do we think Michelle picked anyone based on her like face at the end

it was very I do yeah 100% okay she seemed very like emotionally detached Michelle

when even she was here seemed committed to not giving anything away she's a good poker face yeah she was very like present with like her reactions

and her words. That's why, okay, I don't know when Chris S. was apologizing to Michelle. She was like the most kind of like giggly

and girlish that I'd seen her in a little while. Did anybody else pick up on that? Like her reaction to when she was engaging with Chris, she was like, she was just really, really smiley in a way where like Did anybody else pick up on that? Like her reaction to when she was engaging with Chris,

she was like, she was just really, really smiley in a way where like she's so good at being like ultra. That could be. I couldn't tell

what that was about. But I do think that she might have just simply been like very relieved because Chris S was the only one between him,

Jamie, Martin, who just, when she came out, just apologized to her and didn't make her explain the reasons in which he had harmed and hurt her. And he just was like, I'm going to reflect back to you

the thing that you told me that I did, and I'm going to say, I'm sorry. I do, however, wonder how Michelle feels now that she's watched back the claim that Rick made about what Chris said to him. What was that? Remind me. He said that he didn't buy Chris's initial apology when it was just the men because when they were roommates, that Chris had told him that I think hotter women than Michelle have bleeped his bleep. So I assume sucked his dick.

Sure. Oh. And if I was Michelle, wouldn't love that. No, it would not. That would be a terrible thing to say. I believe he said it. I do too. But yeah,

it's like, what I think is Michelle is a fuck. I think she's absolutely moved on from Chris and all these men and, and nothing against these guys, but I believe that Michelle is happily engaged and she doesn't know these guys. That's the other thing about Chris too, is I feel like of everyone that like wronged her,

she like so clearly wasn't into Chris ever. Yeah. So she's like, all of these comments, like the Martin or the Chris, whatever, you know, is all,

all come from a place of, you can't fire me. I quit, you know, like all these guys knew that Michelle wasn't I quit. You know, like all these guys knew that Michelle wasn't into them. You know, Martin might've thought that she was and then got rejected by her,

which is like, you know, Martin, you know, bottle servers, Martin, like no one puts baby in a corner and he projected a lot of insecurity. Martin showed who he is through rejection. Like we show who we really are through disappointment, through not getting our way.

Yeah, I mean, contrast him to Rodney. It's like, night and day. Yeah, the worst thing Rodney's ever done is try to fake cry.

I tell all. And it's debatable whether or not he was trying to fake cry. And it's debatable. I can't prove it. I've certainly, I can't prove it. He was trying to fake cry. I can't prove it at all.

But you can fight for your cause. I can confidently say that if we didn't like Rodney, you would all agree with me. But because we love Rodney, we don't want to believe that anything Rodney could do is insincere. Well, Rodney is a special human. He's not an angel. That's my

two cents. Yeah, I don't think Michelle cares. At the end of the day, she's playing that role. Even the Jamie of it. I don't think she even gave a shit about trying to... It's so beneath Michelle. It's such a waste of her energy and time,

but she is the best for all. This is tell all. She's got to ask these questions. She has to respond to him. Well, not only respond, she, cause Jamie,

Jamie's clearly problematic. You know, like it's his. Jamie's demeanor was actually chilling. Like the lack of any self-awareness that he betrayed was actually terrifying yeah and so when michelle got out there jamie had the opportunity jamie had the floor and he just gave the i think you're great and i want to avoid addressing anything i did and i and i hope that showering you with compliments will do the trick and michelle is like wait i don't

give a fuck about your compliments. But I do want to ask you about your cruel and shitty things you said about me, to me, to the man. And just his, I think it's more of his willingness to argue the obvious. You know, when they showed that clip of Romeo referencing gaslighting, my first reaction was, fuck, here we go again. Another reference to gaslighting inappropriately or misused. But Romeo actually- He knows the definition. He actually used it in appropriate context only because we know the truth. America saw Jamie say what he said. And Jamie's response to that was trying to convince the men, Michelle and America, that he never said the thing that we like literally saw him say.

Yes, he was quite literally trying to get everyone to question their reality. Like, am I nuts? Because I know you said this and you just keep defiantly pretending that you didn't say it when we all know you did. And Rodney, I mean, and Romeo got that right. I think you just don't understand. There are two layers, maybe three layers to this. There's

the layer of rumor. There's the layer of, did I say the rumor? There's the layer of, was I affected? Did I understand the rumor? This is, you know, we should really just be thinking about the layers. And then you have to add like the weird little like eyes that go along with like him. Well, he does this thing where his face is always like, he's a smirk. It's like the, yeah, it's, he's problematic.

Yeah, it's, but again, props to Michelle, because she's able to take what he said and say it back to him where he was finally after he was like basically paint by numbers here's what you have to say now because I don't know if you realize how you're sounding

and then he finally took the bait. But at that point, the damage has been done and we know you don't mean it and you have no other choice but to apologize in a manner that would be thought of as an actual sincere apology. Right. It's very clear he didn't learn anything from this. And I was glad that Michelle actually said that, that at that towards the end, she was like, I'm going to end the conversation because it's very clear here that you're

not getting it. Yeah. She's like, I'm an educator. I can tell when someone's not understanding the assignment and you do not. Same with, same with Martin. You let off by saying clearly there was a lot of miscommunication between us.

No, there wasn't. Martin doesn't understand the definition of the word misunderstanding and miscommunication between us. No, there wasn't. Martin doesn't understand the definition of the word misunderstanding and miscommunication. It's actually pretty clear when you say, this woman does not deserve my time. How do you misunderstand that?

If he wanted to focus on the fact that, and he did say, I was trying to give her a compliment. His argument was, I was trying to give her a compliment, and in doing so, I gave a compliment. His argument was, I was trying to give her a compliment. And in doing so, I gave a bad example. But also, it was obvious he was trying to give her a compliment. And that was the actual problem, that you think it's a compliment to tell a woman,

you're not like those other shitty women. You're better and you don't have needs. So is it true that his goal in that moment was to give a compliment? I believe that. Sure. But his way of doing it was to throw an entire group of women from a single city under the bus and generally speak down to women in general.

It's not a compliment to say you're not like other girls. That's not a compliment. That's misogyny, which Romeo identified. Thank you, Romeo. Thank you, Romeo. Yeah. So props to Romeo. Yeah. King of tell-all. So when Martin was like, and because of you, Michelle, through this journey, I've now met my soulmate. And because of you, I treat her like a queen. What do we think Martin's definition of treating someone like a queen is? Like getting her bottle service? Yes. Definitely. Act gifts without even knowing that gifts are her love language.

And his gifts aren't truly gifts because a genuine gift would be, here's the thing I'm doing for you because I want you to be happy. And Martin's the type of guy who gives a gift and notes it in his you owe me book. It's a credit. He accounts for his gifts and he in a mental, like, I did that for you. Martin. It comes with a price.

And Chris S out in a club together, interacting with women. I think they'd both have those books. Probably. Let me buy you a drink and then I'll circle back at the end of the night. Like those type of dudes. Martin would get laid pretty easily, I think.

And Chris, well, he would wait. Chris Skippy is the guy at the end of the night who hits on anyone until they say yes. So pretty problematic behavior. Yeah, no, I think yes. So pretty problematic behavior. Yeah, no, I think- Yeah, pretty bad behavior. I think Chris is really problematic, for sure. I mean, at least what we've seen on TV,

incredibly problematic. And with Martin, I also really got the sense that he's the kind of person who like shushes, like physically shushes girls. Like, especially when they're like trying to like vent or something, like he'd be like, shh, don't worry. I'd be like, you're being condescending. He's definitely a calm down guy. Yes.

I think everything's on the table with Martin when it comes to potentially toxic things he might say. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, I mean, he said a lot on national television. So you have to assume, not on national television, it gets far worse.

That was, yes. He said a lot on national television that you're like, boy, even if you thought that, I don't know. I don't know if that's the move. Exactly. Yeah.

And the way you saw his demeanor change when he was talking to boys versus women, it's like, and this is him talking to boys on camera. Like the locker room version of that is probably atrocious. Right. And even when he's like trying to give an apology, the minute Michelle deigned to express any other thoughts about his comments, he was so visibly annoyed at her. He's like,

what? I'm apologizing. I'm not saying it's good. I just, I said, sorry, what more do you want? Like he couldn't even hide it. There was just a disdain dripping. Yeah. So that's good. I just, I said, sorry, what more do you want? Like, he couldn't even hide it. There was just a disdain dripping. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Not a fan of Martin. No. I'm just... You're proud of yourself because you called it? I named it. Very early on. Long before.

While Amanda was like, but he takes his glasses off. I thought he was so... Because the way he took his glasses off was so fucking suave. And I was like... But anyone who's that suave, I feel like anyone who's too smooth, too suave. I'm like, I'll fall for badly behaved men with a nose piercing. I will. I know. I know.

I had the same initial thought. I was like, oh, cute glasses and a nose ring. I know. God. Now we know. What was it that made me think that he sucked? I don't think. First off, you didn't necessarily like his...

I don't think you liked his clothes. I didn't, but that's not why I thought... His clothes were bad. I specifically said he was problematic. Well, he started sticking up for Jamie very soon after the season started. That's what it was. He was sticking up for Jamie. And when all the guys were trying to figure out

who was the rat, I knew Martin knew and Martin wasn't saying shit. Well, and that was because it, I was like, it's only a matter of time before Martin goes home

because their first one-on-one with the race cars, they start talking about Jamie in the hot tub. He's like sticking up for Jamie and Michelle's like, so are you questioning my decision to send him home?

Then I swear it was like almost the next time that they had a one-on-one like conversation was the whole like Miami girl thing I'm like they keep like hitting roadblocks it's just not it's not working it's like meanwhile you have Brandon who's like oh well absolutely on the floor for you it's like why would you put up with that stuff? Do you think, I have a question where it's just like, I know obviously there are so many ways the show is like

an incredibly, a model that's maybe not counterproductive towards dating, cultivating many relationships with multiple people on national television with no privacy.

But do you think there is something about the comparison of like having it so clear what your other options are in the moment? Like, do you think that makes it easier to expose bad behavior?

The fact that you're seeing so many people in the same situation and like the different ways that they navigate it, for example, Martin's comments versus the way like Brandon is treating her or Rodney. Sure. I think you can make snap judgments on people. And I think, I think on a high level,

like a 30,000 foot view, you can tell who are like generally like high character people and low character people um it's not i don't think it's as easy for the audience i think for michelle maybe right for the audience you got the music element and there's plenty of villains who i think are high character people and there's a plenty of fan favorites that i think are not and we have come to learn over time or not you know and so but i think the lead yes can like you know if they're if michelle's very present very observant she doesn't waste the opportunity in terms of like she realizes every time i'm with these people i can learn something

from all these people and and i think if you do that yes you can sure like in a hyper sense like learn about people but like i think with anything you just have to like consider the environment and the context in which you're um rating you know because we all make mistakes you know we all are just like fuck that was that's not my best day. I'm sorry. Like hangry, you know, maybe, maybe you're hangry, you know, it's possible, but yeah, I don't know. What do we think of the show asking Tayshia about her relationship? And what do we think about that response?

It was a rough segment. It felt like a very sharp turn. And then another sharp turn right into Rodney. Like, Caitlin was sort of clearly tasked with transitioning from what felt like a pretty raw emotional moment to, like, from one broken heart to another. Here's Rodney's highlights like that felt very awkward to me uh it felt perhaps poorly produced like it would have been more humane for them to bring that up at the end of a segment cut to a commercial break yeah move on yeah uh i guess more than anything it tells me that you know there's all this speculation

with them announcing announcing jesse palmer is the next host of the bachelor and that announcement was that wasn't a big announcement it was like an instagram post like jesse palmer's our next bachelor all right moving on you know and the reaction was kind of as such kind of like like probably half the people don't even know. Like, okay. It's like, okay. And they were kind of noncommittal, right? They just said, the next host, The Bachelor.

I assume Jesse Palmer will continue upon this. It'll be more of a permanent thing. And it will also do The Bachelorette, but they didn't say. And certainly, I think they're leaving the door open for it to not work out. permanent thing and it will like also do the bachelorette but they didn't say and certainly i think they're leaving the door open for it to not work out and i think the show deciding that they were going to use this breakup as an opportunity to ask tasha tells me that they don't think of her and are not considering her as a possible permanent host of the Batshrap because I don't think they would treat their host that way.

They would never ask Chris Harrison or Jesse Palmer to talk about their personal life. And I get Zach and Tayshia met on TV, but they treated her like a character on their show, which she has been, and that's what she's known for. But if you're going to have a host, you have a host that's above the fray, that's there to guide and not be a part of the drama, but to help facilitate and push the drama along. And I think that, more than anything,

tells us how they view her future role with the show. Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. They definitely put her back in that, like, you are and will forever be a contestant within our franchise. And that's how we view you. And your storyline will sort of, will always, your personal life will always be kind of a storyline that is open for audience consumption in some capacity. Yeah, because they just as easily could have not talked about it. Yeah, it felt shoehorned in, to be honest. It didn't feel necessary.

And it's not like it was breaking news. And was there any performative, or are we just too afraid to say i would say i feel like her original emotion like talking about like i'm heartbroken i tried everything i can i love him that felt very genuine i believe she feels all those things yeah and i felt like her choked up there felt very genuine that felt very real. The walk away or the leaving of set felt like potentially an orchestrated thing. Yeah. It's tough blocking to pull off.

If the director gives you that blocking, it's not going to work. I guess here's what I would say to that. I think Tayshia's a professional. And I think if Tayshia was hosting a red carpet or anything other than the tell-all and some random person she was interviewing who happened to also be a Bachelor fan said,

what happened to you and Zach? Tayshia would be a professional and say, you know, I'm heartbroken and I just moved on. And then she would continue to conduct the interview. You know, she's a pro and she's polished. And those are good attributes for someone who I'm assuming wants to be a host, she wouldn't completely fall apart and walk off stage. So to me, it was clearly all an act.

And that's because I give Tayshia credit that she is a pro who would conduct herself in any other hosting situation if simply asked, what happened? Yeah, I don't know that I'd go so far to be able to be like, definitively, this is an act. It didn't necessarily land that way to me. But I do think that the show clearly, in some capacity,

wanted that reaction. Oh, I think... And wanted that moment. Because they didn't cut to Marshall. I think the producers gave her permission. It's like, you know, if you need to like

gather yourself and walk off, feel free. Like they gave her permission to do that and then she decided to do that. That's usually

how that stuff works. What did you think? It felt for me like some of the comments she was making almost were framing it as like Zach being the one to end it. Did anybody else feel like that?

Certainly how it was framed. Yeah. Like I felt like there was sort of the way she. But she also didn't. That's what's interesting. But she didn't say. Yeah, she did a very good job of not like. What was clear is that Tayshia was.

It was trying to get sympathy for. Yeah, she was trying to get sympathy for... Yeah, she was trying to get sympathy without necessarily blaming anyone, but allowing people to come up with their own conclusions, right? And so saying that you still love them and saying, we'll see what happens. She was visibly shaking at one point.

And so, yeah, I think she... And I think Tisha's very smart. So, like, yeah, I definitely think she was okay with people thinking whatever they want, but she certainly wasn't going to say it, and we don't really know either.

That's the thing about their breakup and even speculating about it. Like we have so little information and the reports that have come out have been all kind of all over the place. Which we won't speculate because we don't know. Right. So I don't know.

Watching that, I was kind of like this. She seems genuinely sad regardless of what happened. Clearly, this is something that's impacting her and like, clearly the show made calculations and they wanted this to be aired.

And so, yeah. Because also, yeah, they could easily just have not have aired it. Like, it would have been so easy to,

I mean, we saw Heather Martin just be completely cut out of the women tell all, so it's possible. She was sitting in the audience and completely edited out. So yes, they could have just as easily, Tayshia could have gotten emotional authentically,

walked off authentically and said, guys, can you take that out? Because I'm a pro and I want to host in the future. And whether you guys want to use me or not to host your show, I don't want to make it seem like at any moment, if I'm triggered emotionally about my personal life, I might walk off set in the middle of recording. But it also kind of like you say how this moment of vulnerability when people get sent home is their best moment on the show. It almost maybe was like, maybe she contextualized it after the fact of being like, okay, I'm usually a really like polished, put together person. I'm on my

shit. This was one time where I let the emotion bubble over. And like, I know that that is like ultimately for my benefit. Well, I mean, back to, like I said, yes. You know, it's tough. People come from this world. Like it's, you know, there's a handful of us who are working in entertainment and this challenge of trying to like cultivate a career. We recognize that we are given this platform. This is a show literally talking about Bachelor Nation.

I'm doing it. I also do relationship stuff. I also do other hosting stuff. I've done some acting. And you're always trying to like separate yourself from just being known from coming from their franchise is a challenge many of us all deal with. And this, you know, so you have Caitlin and Tayshia

hosting the Bachelorette. What an incredible opportunity. What an incredible accomplishment for both of them. It's never been done in the franchise. And yet there still had been characters on the show, right? Caitlin and Jason are together, Tayshia and Zach. And we often, as former cast members, are faced with these choices of like, what's best for me in the long term with the things I want to do and my goals? And

what do I think is the most compelling moment? And I think Tayshia was given an opportunity and certainly didn't make her. They probably asked, you know, would you want to do this? And if you're thinking about wanting to host in Hollywood, I don't know if walking off set serves you the best. She, in that moment, decided to be Tayshia the Bachelorette and not Tayshia the host of the Bachelorette. And the show set her up and she took the bait. Is how I would see it. Speaking of moments that potentially could have been edited out, Slash was definitely scripted.

Mr. Streaker? Yeah, I don't know. This, oh my God. God, these pre-planned little gimmicky sketches need to end. Wait, why? Okay. Why do we have that? Maybe I'm naive.

Am I the only one who doesn't think they planned a streaker in the audience? Did you hear his voice? Did you hear his voice? I just- They literally cast these people. I want Fort Knox. It's on lockdown.

Maybe I just want to believe in movie magic, but I thought it was so bizarre. Why would you plan a streaker? Well, first of all, think about it. Lately, during quarantine, streaking has been a thing on the show. We are in the streak era of Bachelor Nation. Because they're stuck in little resorts.

What else are they going to do? They have limited options. They don't have air balloons. They can't travel. They're like, there are limited ways we can transform this particular conference room into something fun and watching and crazy and like getting naked is low-hanging fruit and so rodney streaked it's been done before it wasn't just rodney and that it was a callback to that so if it was so it wasn't as random as you want to believe. It was a literal callback to Rodney.

So anytime they do a callback, clearly is a highly produced moment, especially- That man was hired to do that exact thing, that exact moment. You know, I choose to believe him. I really choose to- I love that for you. It was the way he stood up again.

I know because COVID, the last tell-all, like all of the audience members were hired. Because, you know. Okay, I'm sorry. Also, legally, can you, like, isn't that kind of, are you really, isn't that kind of a liability to be like, we're going to have a man flash this like audience of people?

I don't think he was fully naked. Yeah, it's like the Kenny situation. Yeah, he definitely had. He had Speedo on. Yeah. I think he was fully naked. Yeah, it's like the Kenny situation. Yeah, he definitely had. He had Speedo on. Yeah. I believe he was butt naked and he was on play. It's your world, Amanda.

We're just living in it. This is my Santa Claus. Please let me have this. I mean. Oh, let's talk about the Clayton trailer. Oh, three women. Maybe it's, we've been hard on Clayton

and not Clayton the person, but the choice of Clayton. We don't know Clayton. Probably a really nice guy. Criticism for the show. Yeah. In their choice. Yes. And after re-watching the trailer last week,

not the tell-all trailer, but the one that was like floating on the internet. Yeah. I was troubled by what is obviously like a voice over in the sense that we we hear clayton say it we don't see clayton say it so that matters but clayton says i believe that my wife is in this room or something like that and i was like all right buddy okay like we have a potential actor on our hands

not like an act paid actor but like someone who is willing to say what he thinks he should say and not what he believes because like come on like someone who will ham it up a little bit yeah right like you know i get they all have to say, like, hey, I think my person's in this room at, like, week two. But this sounded like his intro package. And, like, I mean, other than, like, Sean Lowe and Ari and Jason Mesnick,

I mean, like... You mean the success rate isn't super high? I'm really optimistic. I think there's plenty of things you could say that, like, sells that he is, you know, like like and I do authentically believe that every bachelor and bachelorette who starts in is really wants it to work and optimistic that it can totally but it doesn't mean you don't have fears and reservations and his this like I believe that my person's in this room I was just like all right buddy all right, buddy.

All right, here we go. And I do want to point out that while we don't know much about Clayton and we have every reason to think that Clayton would be a boring bachelor, that's not a criticism and is a human, but as a lead of a TV show, didn't seem to offer a lot of value on The Bachelorette. I do think, however, regardless, that this will be a very entertaining season because what you will have, I think,

is a callback to old Bachelor days where it will just be a lot of Laurens and Amandas and it will be incredibly catty and petty. And I think Clayton will essentially be a vessel and a puppet. I think you're right. There were just so many white blonde women yelling at each other in that trailer. It's like having heart palpitations.

Like, oh God, what are we getting ourselves into? And it will be a mess, but it will be entertaining. They're definitely going to lean on the women. That's very clear. Yes. To provide that entertainment value. the women. That's very clear to provide that entertainment value. And it feels like they were able to successfully produce Clayton into, for some reason, making at least one public announcement about having sex. What seemed to appear to be the final two.

Yeah. At a rose ceremony. I would also, it was weird because that clip of them at the rose ceremony with the two women, whether or not this was like edited together from a different one, there's two roses on the podium, which makes me think it was meant to be a rose ceremony with three of them. One girl's already gone home. He knows each of them are getting a rose. He's sad. The third one went.

And then he's like, I've been intimate with both of you, but you're both still getting a rose. What's her face is already in the limo. It's like a super tease preview. So who the heck knows? Right. I'm like getting in there.

I'm like, I'm sure there are a million misdirects and I'm sure I didn't catch most of them, but I was like, wow. But he does seem to say that. He definitely says it. So if we took the trailer on it by its word

that at some point he's going to at a rose ceremony tell two women, or at least not at a rose ceremony for whatever reason feel compelled to sit two women down and be like I've had sex with both of you also yeah why would you do that in a group of three like I don't you feel like you owe each of them an individual

conversation yeah it's very bizarre also like no one does that it's yeah that is not that doesn't make any sense and for anyone any bachelor historians that are listening on my season of The Bachelor, I did address the women and told them I had sex with Liz. Now, this was a conversation I had with behind the door of the producers. I was, we argued, we fought back and forth.

I wasn't, wasn't happy. They cast Liz. I knew they knew about me and Liz. I knew what they were trying to do, whatever. They knew that, you know, they knew how it all ended. They knew I would be okay. Right. So early on, uh, night one, I recognized Liz. We talked, they had a girl interrupt before like Liz was just like digging herself and like making it impossible for me to keep her like just like objectively in the audience. So they had someone swoop in and interrupt. So like that had to be, you know,

tabled to next week. And so here I am like legitimately not forgetting about the show, but legitimately worried. Like, I don't know what Liz is saying. Right. So I had no idea was Liz talking to, I was worried that this would come out that I had sex with Liz before I even met half the women, legitimately sat down and talked night one. So I literally was... I felt forced to just be like, I'm just going to name it because I know it's here, but we had sex. And if any of you want to talk to me about it, like I'm, I'm an open book and happy to discuss it. And so I did say that to what at that point was like 25 women because she had been there and we hooked up before. And there's always that thought.

You were addressing something that happened off screen. Off the show. So Clayton... I'm just saying, me saying, well, I don't know why anyone would say that. I did do something similar. Well, what about the time?

I just want to provide context. I think there's a difference of you basically admitting that you've had sex before and Clayton being like, there's a difference of you like basically admitting that you've like had sex before and Clayton being like each and every one of you I've had in my bedroom. Right. Very, very.

You now have the seed of Clayton. Look to the person to your left. I've had sex with her. Yeah. It's not the same situation. It was like a baptism.

And what do you think about like the falling in love with three? Because obviously Ben Higgins, two. Two. Two. They were like, it's not enough. Again. They were like three? Because obviously Ben Higgins, two. Two. They were like, it's not enough. Again.

They were like, raise the gauntlet. Yeah, exactly. Like, we've already done the two loves. Only way is up. If Clayton legit says the two women to their faces, I've hooked up with both of you. Poor guy. Now I'm just having with both of you. Poor guy.

Now I'm just having empathy for Clayton. You know, we've been hard on his selection, which is really no fault of Clayton's. Of course, he said yes to being offered the bachelor. I don't fault him for that. And we can't blame him for being just like a big, tall ex-football player who didn't choose to say all that much

other than wrestle with guys on the Bachelorette. That's not his fault. We can't judge him for that. And then he goes into this world and just like, hey guys, let's do whatevs. I don't really know what's going on. And somehow I don't want to say

convinced because I can't confirm that he would be. I mean, he's ultimately in charge of his own choices. He can say no. He has the power to say, you know, I'd rather not. I don't know if that, like, I don't know. I want, I'm all for honesty here, but maybe like behind closed doors, I'm fully prepared. Like I accept the responsibility as bachelor and bachelorettes before me that like, I, the fancy suites is a tricky situation where it's like, Oh, like what an opportunity. I don't know if I'm in love with, I don't know I'm going to pick. So like, Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to be intimate with potentially more than one person in a, in a span of five days. And he'll have to have that conversation potentially with someone

as many people have before him. And he was like, you know what? I'm just going to deal with it now. And in one conversation. In one conversation. I'm always sitting here saying, you don't really know who someone really is until you disappoint them. And what a way to fast track that by just simply saying, well, I'm just going to drop this grenade right here

and see who handles it more maturely. Do you think there's like the sort of expectation that if you do go to the fantasy suite with someone, is it sort of implied that this is not, not necessarily go to the fantasy suite, but like are intimate with them?

Is it implied that you're not really intimate with others? Like the fact that he is like naming this and needing to like bring this up is that i can't speak for everyone but i think if you're in the top three and you make it to the fantasy suite like you're hoping to fuck you know variety of reasons. One, most importantly, you're probably feeling feelings of love and a connection. And you want to solidify that with your first time alone off camera with someone you're falling in love with. That's option one. Two, you don't believe you're their first choice. You're all horned up. You're highly competitive. You're in a highly competitive, competitive atmosphere. And you're just like, if nothing else,

if given the opportunity, I like to go out on a bang with a bang quite literally. And like, yeah, you know, so there's that. And I, so I think everyone's like wanting to either for competitive reasons,

assuming they are like, like they're, they're people who have participated in hookup culture, which I think the average person who goes on has participated on some degree in hookup culture. As opposed to the people like,

I don't sleep with people I'm not in a relationship with. And there's plenty of those too. And they usually make that explicit, right? Like if someone's like, I am not open to having sex in the fantasy suite often that's a conversation if the show wants to make it part of the show but like

it's not always like the Maddie Pruitt's or the Sean Lowe's where like that's part of their brand they're just like they don't feel the name to name it and there's plenty and there's also plenty of times where you know we talked about Hannah Brown and Tyler you know like they didn't.

And I think Hannah was someone, she had already hooked up with Peter. I think she was leaning with Jed and despite her feelings for Tyler and how beautiful he might be, I think Hannah was like, I probably shouldn't do this. And Tyler was like, no problem. You know, let's just talk. You know, it's not like there's plenty of times where people don't have sex. I don't think Matt James slept with anyone. And then do you think it's known if so, if the lead only has sex with one contestant, do you think it is known

amongst the others, the degree to which things escalate? Most of the time you are made to wonder and have it trigger you and lose your mind and whatever. Or you're Hannah Brown and you say, I fucked in a windmill.

That was at AFR. But whatever you are convincing yourself of, you might be introduced reasons why you should doubt yourself. So if you think they fucked someone else, someone might say, no, you're hitting on yourself. If you're overconfident, you might be reminded that there's two other people here.

I mean, this is a TV show and we're trying to elicit like traumatic responses. So it really just depends. I don't think there's a clear answer one way or the other. But the fact that he potentially told two people to their face

is wild television. And I will say- Also, if it happened during a rose ceremony. I'm in. Like I'm in. The biggest takeaway after seeing that preview is i got an i i am curious if if it played out the way they previewed it and if so wow i do feel bad for clayton because i don't think that's going to go well for him is there is there a scenario in which Bachelor Nation, predominantly women viewers, are like,

what an honest guy. We need more context before we can make that call. There is a possibility. I think if people, if this is him owning a mistake and being like, I messed up. Why is it a mistake?

I think if this is him being honest and I think it's just let me ask you a question all three of you clayton goes to the fantasy suites and shortly thereafter he's willing to say it's a mistake do you buy that or is that a convenient thing to say after you just like took advantage of your opportunities the bachelor to have sex with multiple people you know we do things and it's like oh i messed up sorry but like you knew like that's why like when you you know when people commit crimes they they judge whether this is premeditated or like a crime of passion a crime of passion

like literally taking him to court yeah we need a jury that's what we do in the podcast but um do you would you which one would you think is more likely? I mean, I think he's allowed to have sex with multiple people. No, yeah. I'm not criticizing him having sex. I'm criticizing if he apologizes and tries to say it was a mistake. I think when I say mistake, I more mean like if he sees that his actions have an impact and hurt other people. And then he adjusts his behavior and communication accordingly, like that's how I think it could be redeeming.

Like I think if he's listening, if he's being empathetic, if he's understanding and then not just doubling down and only viewing his perspective, but genuinely factoring in their views, then I think it's a situation where he's not irredeemable or maybe we can. then I think it's a situation where he's not irredeemable or maybe we can. So we're willing to buy a scenario where Clayton went into the fantasy suite, had sex with two women and didn't think ahead of time that it might upset them only to tell them thinking, Hey guys, by the way, I had sex with both of you. And then to his surprise,

they get mad. And then he says, you know what? After thinking about how, you know, it impacts you. I'm sorry. That was a mistake. That's what we're. Okay.

Cool. Well, I mean, like, I don't, I don't know. It's obviously all speculation here. That's just for me, like this scenario in which I could see it being something where I wouldn't be as disappointed or upset with his actions. But like. I'm not going to be disappointed or upset at all. But also like Caitlin, you and Caitlin like hooked up on a one-on-one, you know? I am in no way judging him if he's...

And I'm not judging you. I just mean that like... We're just playing out scenarios of what might happen and how what people might think. I just feel like, but I mean, for you, like, did you think that was something like Caitlin like premeditated? Do you think she was like, I'm going to fuck Nick tonight? She didn't apologize either. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about, you said,

if Clayton sees how it might infect someone and then apologize, and all I can think of, apologies fall flat when I know that you knew what you were doing beforehand. Sure. You know? If you're in the real world, if you get cheated on and they're like, I'm sorry, but I apologized.

And you're like, you didn't think while you were at the strip club doing all these things, you weren't taking me into consideration in that moment. When we're in relationships, we want people to be thinking of our feelings before they do the deed, not afterwards. Right. And I'm just simply saying, we're speculating how is Bachelor Nation going to respond. And I'm just responding to your thought that, well, as long as he apologizes, I'm thinking, I hope he doesn't do that. If he's going to do this, I think he just names it knowing that he knew how it was going to impact two people, but he chose to take advantage of the fact that he was a bachelor. Caitlin didn't apologize.

I mean, she told when, when she told Sean, she empathized with why it might upset her, but she owned what she did. And rightfully so as an empowered person and an empowered woman of her own choices. And,

and I think, yeah, I just want more context. I'm like, is he, is he, you know, confessing this because he had indicated he wasn't going

to have sex with multiple people? Like, why is he making this announcement? I don't understand. That's all I can think about. I'm like, I cannot evaluate how I'm supposed to feel about this decision until I understand what the hell has led up to this decision.

Because the friend who told him to buy the boat told him it was a good idea. Well, you're not. Nope. Just a friend who told him. Just a nice friend with no skin in the game. You know, his conscience told him it would be a good idea. I just think from the trailer, it's like, oh, Colton is agreeable guy. Like he was just like, yeah, sure.

Sounds good. I think my guess is Clayton was very easy to work with just like, yeah, sure. Sounds good. I think my guess is Clayton was very easy to work with. Yeah. Enjoyable to be around. And I, and I do think it will be, I'm all in. I'm,

I'm, I'm here to watch. I mean, we're talking about it. I'll be watching. I'll definitely be watching. I hope it will be entertaining. It's just very hard to,

to watch that and just not be like, it's still just so disappointing that you reached for your number eight guy because you were so desperate for a white football player. Correct. I don't know. It's going to be, it's going to take some time to buy in. Well, yeah. I mean, that I've. Yeah, that will never not change for me. That's just always there. So it's hard to feel any excitement.

That's not the fault of Clayton, to be clear. Correct. It's a criticism of the show. I've accepted I am not going to, at any point, be invested or rooting for Clayton's love story beyond like I'm rooting for everyone in this world to find happiness. But I do think it will be entertaining, entertaining television that we will talk about. Yes. Do we want to close with some paradise predictions based off of mental all? Yeah.

I mean, I think the loudest usually win. Rodney will certainly be there if he wants to Rick will be there if he wants to the big question is like I mean I think Skippy will be there if he wants to Will and Peter I feel like they would love they would potentially like to bring them

on for like a quick flame out also you know Peter I think Will I mean I just don't think Peter is really anyone's cup of tea. And they do, they cast on Paradise based, they're trying to play matchmaker. So there's a lot of conversations

like, who would you... But they cast Carl. Yeah. Whose cup of tea was Carl? You're absolutely right. Yeah. Like, they're gonna give Peter, it's gonna be a week where the men have the roses, so that way women have to pretend to put up with Peter. And then he'll be gone the next week. You're right. I mean, going to be a week where the men have the roses. That way women have to pretend to put up with Peter. And then he'll be gone the next week. You're right. Peter could be a week early arrival.

I'm just saying when they do cast, they are. They are trying to make matches. They're asking, who are you into? Who are you hoping to see? Because they do want matches and they do want people to fight over people. There's that too. Right. I do think, I think Rodney and Rick could both potentially thrive on Paradise. Maybe Romeo.

Yeah. I just, I want to see more Romeo. With the hair. I love the hair. Also, I thought Olu had that really good moment. Oh my gosh. I want more Olu. I would like to see Olu on Paradise and I think he would be a hot commodity. Oh yeah. Olu is great and thoughtful and we all love Olu. He will give it an opportunity. I'm sure he'll be there. And the statement fits

he would wear. Oh my god. It's like would be a Connor B situation where I actually want it. But he pulled it off. We're asking for it. All right. Well, I think that wraps it up. Emma, thanks so much for coming. Please let the people know where they can find you and listen to more of your content.

Yeah. So you can find my podcast at Love to See It, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at emmaladyrose. And you can find my sub stack, Rich Text text at claireandemma.substack.com. All right. Well, be sure to check that out. And thanks for listening, guys. Make sure to keep listening if it's Wednesday or after to our wonderful and exciting episode with Hello, Teffy. You won't want to miss that. And until next time, thanks for listening.