The Viall Files - E356 Bachelorette Recap With Rod Thill

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

We’re breaking down all the Bachelorette drama with TikToker, Rod Thill. On this Recap, we start by grieving Joe going home and trying to figure out who may be the winner after this bombshell. We talk some Bachelor Nation Hot Goss and how Kaitlyn directly responded to a podcaster about how Tayshia planned her walkout during the Men Tell All. We then talk about how the order of Fantasy Suite picks may impact who goes home next, that Nayte may end up being the winner, and how Michelle seems like she no longer has to be the teacher in situations and can finally be herself. Nick then shares how he wishes the rest of the show would play out and Rod shares his perfect first night entrance if he ever went on the Bachelorette. “I think Jesse will remind people that can’t count how many roses there are left.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Betterhelp: Viall Files listeners get 10% off their first month at http://www.BetterHelp.com/ViallFiles SwitchCraft: Download Switchcraft for free and unlock the magical mystery!  RumHaven: Discover more recipes that will help you Sip into Paradise at http://www.RumHaven.com Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @rod See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting and analytical breakdown of fantasy suites or as Michelle mentioned, overnights. We have a fantastic episode, the one, the only, returning back to the show for his Bachelorette Recap premiere.

The delightful and full of anxiety and nostalgia Rod Thill. Welcome back Rod. Hello, hello. Before we get to Rod in the breakdown, just a couple of quick housekeeping notes. Tomorrow, or depending on when you're listening to this, we have a fantastic episode about dreams. Blew my mind. We have so many thoughts of what dreams mean and so many people telling you.

It's always your friends. Your friends are always things that are experts on your dreams and what they mean. And, you know, well, we brought an actual expert. The wonderful Ian Wallace joins us. Very kind and insightful man when it comes to dreams. You won't want to miss that. That is out on Wednesday, probably out now, depending on what you're getting to this episode. So be sure to check that out.

Also joined by my assistants, Allie and Amanda. Ladies, how are you? Welcome to the couch. Magical. I love it when it rains in LA. Yeah, I'm really quite enjoying the rain. It's awesome. It's really great. I really enjoy it. It's very comforting. I'm a little bummed that we had to come into work today because it's kind of nice to like...

I wanted to just look out my window. Yeah, you wanted to just put on and like be productive from the couch. But here we are because the people need to hear our opinions. We are essential workers in the rain. We are essential workers when it comes to the Bachelorette. People need to know. Well, I was wrong. Joe does not win.

So my bad. My B. It's like, I don't think Nate's going to have a crack. I think Nate win. So, my bad. My B. It's like, I don't think Nate's going to have a crack. I think Nate's looking very solid. So, we're interviewing the runner-up after AFR, just a heads up. And we're interviewing Brandon, right? She was just like, Nate, I'm in love with you.

And we had some strong things to say after Hometowns about her relationship with Nate, which is just like, Nate, I'm in love with you. And we had some strong things to say after hometowns about her relationship with Nate, which is basically like, hey, it seems like maybe one of the men who knows Nate the most is just like, not ready for love. And I don't know if the Bachelorette is the first environment in which you would want to trust someone's feelings about love. And then you take Michelle into account and how pragmatic and thoughtful and deliberate she is with her choices. And yet it's almost kind of like poetic because, hey, you could be all those things that Michelle clearly is, but still be human and make choices

that, well, we can sit here and debate. I don't know. Let's just say it's a risk. I mean, I've always said this show, whoever you pick, if you're the lead, it is a massive leap of faith. So at the end of the day, you're just going to pick who you like the most and hope for the best. You don't exactly go like, well, you know, I like Joe the third most, but I do see like a healthier relationship. You know, I don't know.

Let's just start at the end, Rod. What were your predictions going into this episode? And were you surprised that Joe went home? We had the same prediction. Even from episode one, I thought Joe was going to be the one. I mean, their story was too dynamic not to be. Her keeping him on, there's too much at stake for him, at least not to be her keeping him on. You know, there's too much at stake for him, at least not to go to

final two. So I was shocked that he was to go home. This whole dynamic of this top three is giving me copy-paste from last season, from KD season. You know, like Greg going home and then Justin, who's great, but like the dynamic wasn't there. Justin would be

like, Brandon, right? And then obviously she's going to pick Nate. So like you said, you're interviewing Brandon next week. Right. And I'm excited to interview Brandon because I feel like Brandon has a lot to say. And he's passionate about love. I don't know if I... I wish the final three could go to the mental all too.

Because I feel like they have... They want to talk about the drama and stuff too. And I feel like they have, you know, it's like they, they, they want to talk about the drama and stuff too. And I feel like he has a lot to say about what happened in the house. Well, we'll hopefully get those questions answered on this podcast. So be sure to tune in.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with like, we love Justin. I've met Justin once charming, delightful, beautiful man, but I definitely believe that there is a real connection between Michelle and Brandon. And you could convince me that Katie didn't know Justin's name when she sent

me home. So I definitely don't know if those are the same. I don't want to like... It's very clear that it's going to be it's going to be Nate but I agree I think like you said too it's just like he

he can't be this far removed from what he wants this late in the game yeah we had to address the top of the show do we have any like hot gossip we need to cover

before we break down the episode itself like a little bit of hot gossip not like the most dynamic week in Bachelor Nation that's okay they can't always come in hot they can't always be so juicy I feel like A little bit of hot goss. Not like the most dynamic week in Bachelor Nation. That's okay.

They can't always come in hot. They can't always be so juicy. I feel like they needed to cool off. Yeah. Rod's buddies all went to the Dominican Republic. So we got Andrew S., we got Justin, Trey, Aaron, Clay, and Mike P. Okay. They did a lot of photo shoots, got a lot of TikToks,

you know, living their best life. As they do. They love a photo shoot. They love a good photo shoot. Andrew S. also posted on his story a photo of, you know, the Dominican Republic and he captioned it, To my crush, this is for you. So that's either Rod or a woman.

We don't know. Natalie shot me that one and I just thought, didn't he like put the focus on the sunset? It was quite... I mean, yeah, it's gone now. It was a very uh artistic influential post i was i was like damn yeah arts across the nation are gonna break it was i was i was a little

jelly of uh that uh the creativity that andrew yeah so um anna redmond declined to comment on if she's dating someone in bachelor nation so people yeah she declined to comment on if she's dating someone in bachelor nation. So people, yeah. She declined to comment. Yeah. She was, they were like, are you dating anyone from bachelor nation in Chicago? And she was like,

and like ducked away from the camera. Yep. So probably not. So she's probably not dating someone. I'm loving this. What do they call themselves? This, uh,

uh, controversial crew, controversial crew. That's what a name. What a name. Are they calling themselves that? Yeah. Did you not see the TikTok?

They've embraced it now. They're truly desperate at this point. Just a bunch of people latching on to no one liking Katie. It's like they're so desperate for relevancy. They would rather jump on the Katie's hatred and be like, I'll take some of that hatred rather than no one talking about me at all. Abigail posted on Instagram, our lovely,

our girl Abigail, long post about confidence and how she's grown. And for the first time ever, she like showed her implant in a photo and it was like a very nice moment. So props to Abigail. We love her. Props to Abigail.

Are her and Noah still dating? Yes. Good for them. Yes. It seems to be. And the top two moments, I would say of the week, Ben Higgins calling out Colton

for saying that Colton was like the only person who's, you know, I'm in touch with in Bachelor Nation right now is Chris Harrison. He was like the only one to reach out to me

like when I came out to offer his support and Ben Higgins was like I reached out to you and like fully sent you a book that was like how to come out

in a Christian environment like was trying to help you and like so Ben's like his comments say otherwise yeah I saw some comments that even said like

just sent you a DM or something like that yeah so clearly Chris Harrison was not the only one to reach out. Let me look for mine. Oh, here we go. Yep. Let's see. April 14th, 7.30am. I don't know.

I don't know if that's the day of his Good Morning America appearance, but I believe it was. Congrats, bud. Hope you're in a happier place. That seems like a reach out if I was a heart. He hearted it was. Congrats, bud. Hope you're in a happier place. It seems like a reach out if I was a heart. He hearted it immediately. That sounds like support if I've ever heard it.

So he saw it. Absolutely. And then said, thank you, man. I'm doing so good and happy. I said, great to hear. Rooting for your happiness. He's just a liar. Does he have your contact saved as Chris Harrison?

Maybe it was that the confusion? I don't know. It was trying to think. It was a DM. Okay. It it was that the confusion? I don't know. It was, it was trying to think. It was a DM. Okay. It was on Instagram. I don't know. It's weird when people lie about little things, they don't need to lie for attention.

Are we ready for our final? We have more? Of the week? Yes. So, you know, we broke down the whole Caitlin, Tayshia, men tell all situation. Tayshia, you're not wearing your ring, whatever. This girl, Morgan, who is, makes videos about pop culture, men tell all situation Tayshia tell you're not wearing your ring whatever this girl Morgan

who is makes videos about pop culture basically posted that moment on her Instagram story and was like this is so fake

blah blah blah blah blah and Caitlyn actually saw the story and sent her like three long DMs like Morgan had to scroll she said Caitlyn like responded to her

yes and was like it felt really staged to me too. It felt like a very scripted moment. Caitlin said it's really been hard for her

because for the past six years, she's been able to be herself and build her own brand and identity and now she has this professional role with certain requirements.

She said that the moment was created and desired by Tayshia and the producers. They wanted it in there. And that apparently it was thrown into the men tell all really late, which is why Caitlin was like asked for it. Caitlin said it was created by Tayshia and the producers. So she wasn't necessarily set up by the producers.

Like we thought she was involved in the process. She was a willing participant. So she was like, you know what? Not interested in looking like a host today. I want to be Tayshia the Bachelorette today. Yeah. So Caitlin was saying, she was like, it felt weird to me because originally Caitlin was reading it off the teleprompter, which goes along with her saying it was added really last minute.

And then she's like, and that's why I pivoted to then look at Tayshia because it felt so weird to me to be like delivering these like hard-hitting questions from a teleprompter. I'm shocked that Caitlyn wrote, put this out like via text. That's what I'm shocked at. In the internet. And Morgan asked her, she was like, hey, I like also run a podcast. I would love to talk about this. Are you okay with me sharing these DMs?

And Caitlyn said yes. So it's not like Morgan just like screenshotted it and blasted it. Like she asked for permission. Caitlyn's next thing is Dancing with the Stars, right? So maybe she's just like morgan just like screenshotted it and blasted it like she asked for i guess caitlin's next thing is dancing with the stars right so maybe she's just like you know what but yeah the tour yeah interesting so like also this probably just confirms that caitlin and tasha are not going to be hosting the next season of the best right are we overstating this is like full-on anarchy like that's a bit

it's a bit much I mean I'm probably but like that's a lot to like who's this Morgan person she does TikTok videos she's on TikTok she's like a pop culture kind of like host thing I actually like edit the videos for my other job on YouTube

but like does she Michael talked to her once too. Are her and Caitlyn friends? No. She even said on her podcast, she's like, I'm not verified on Instagram. She was like, I'm a girl who lives alone, makes no money making these videos. I eat

frozen takeout food every week and suddenly Caitlyn Bristow's in my DMs. She's a radio DJ too. Wow. Obviously, Caitlyn has a massive platform. She's a radio DJ, I think, too. Wow. But like, obviously, Caitlin has a massive platform. She has a podcast of her own,

very successful. Like, the, it's interesting that she chose to give this girl this information. And, I mean,

she didn't like talk shit, but she definitely threw Tayshia under the bus, right? Like, I mean, she at least acknowledged that Taysh she definitely threw Tayshia under the bus, right? I mean, she at least acknowledged that Tayshia was part of the creation of the moment. Is it too much to say that

we can now confirm that it was completely staged and the walk-off was total bullshit? We don't know if the walk-off was bullshit. I will say... If you go to the producer and say, hey, I want this TV moment. I mean, the whole thing is from start to end. Yeah, Caitlin did seem very genuine.

Because you were in theater, Nick. You can tell what things are acting. I mean, I'm taking acting classes. I wish I took theater in high school. Yeah, you've taken acting classes. And it was just so... You can tell Caitlin's... Versus what she's done in the past past you can tell how genuine that whole moment

for her was the shock and like we're going to give Tisha a moment like that seemed very genuine that she didn't know what was going on so maybe the moment was created but the walk off was even a surprise to Caitlin so not an alliance if there's not a united front with the hosts of the

bachelorette Caitlin's just jumping into random people's DM a united front with the hosts of The Bachelorette. Caitlin's just jumping into random people's DMs and spilling the tea. I'm not going to lie. I'm a little sus about that. What do you mean? You guys know her better than I do, but I don't think that she would just open up like that and send four things at the end. It seems bizarre

that she was just like, you know what? I want to just give this person that has a platform who talks about bachelor this it's pretty good tea it's piping hot like all right because on instagram you can unsend messages too so maybe morgan like sent her some like crying questions and all this stuff and then unsent the messages and like that because i you you could sell me on like, maybe Kate was just like, I just need to get this out there. It just feels wrong.

I don't like that I was a part of it. So she DMs Morgan, this Morgan person and says, Hey, I'd really appreciate it. I'm going to show you some things. You can call me a source, you know, but please don't share my text. But no. She fully said it was okay.

She's like, yeah, blast it in the, have it go viral. Wow. Wow. Okay. So that's your, that's your weekly tea.

Well, thanks for confirming, Caitlin, what we suspected, I guess. Exactly. What we didn't know, well, go ahead. I was just going to say, I'll be sad to see them go. Like, I think, I guess. Exactly. What we didn't know. Go ahead. I was just going to say, I'll be sad to see them go. I didn't think they were set up to do well

as hosts for these past two seasons. But even just for fantasy suites, seeing a card signed from the two of them, it's so much more fun than when it's like, Chris Harrison, authority figure, give you permission to have sex. Versus two girls being like, have an amazing night. Yeah, I mean,

I agree that it's going to be weird when Jesse Palmer is like, hey guys, go fuck in the fantasy suites. But yes, I think from a friend's... I mean, the whole fantasy suite day card is weird in general. And yes, I agree they weren't set up

to succeed as hosts. And I think it's clunky to have two. I think too. It's been cool to see, especially I love when Tayshia and Caitlyn call out the men on their bullshit. More Caitlyn

than Tayshia. They did it with Katie Season, like you're being like they did it with i forgot who they did it with with uh katie season like you're being asked you know yeah i uh i like that too and i wish they would lean into that more i don't i don't suspect they will i think they're gonna go back to jesse palmer just reminding people who can't count how many roses there are and then that will be pretty you know clayton will be like has everyone ever done this? And Jesse will be like, no, no, sorry. No one's ever given a rose back.

And it'll be... My guess is the extent of the hosting responsibilities. Who knows? I mean, I was wrong about Joe. So I could be... All bets are off. All bets are off. Well, it's the holidays

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out there who watch it back and they don't they don't always have to air it in order but they usually do having been on the vat shred twice and been the runner-up twice i got the first fantasy suite twice uh brandon we used to assume is going to be the runner-up he got the first fantasy suite everyone that i can remember i think it's like it's been like a dead giveaway that the first fantasy suite is the runner-up person going third is sandwiched in the middle and the person who you know vanessa was my last raven was first um i i and i i don't know if it's always been the case i'd be curious for any of the historians out there. Has that... Tell me a time when that wasn't the case.

I'm not... I'm curious because I'm watching it. And when Brandon got the first fantasy suite date, that was my first trigger that's like, oh my God, is Brandon going to be number two? And then I was immediately concerned for Joe. I was on the fence because last week there was what seemed to be some clear red flags for Nate. And that was the first sign of trouble for Joe for me.

But they go on the date and yeah, it was, yeah, I think we've all, I don't know about you rod but like is we never like unlike justin they have an amazing connection michelle and brandon like it's clear like you can't deny that brandon is infusive with his words and yet i just i don't know what it is about that relationship that I just haven't been like ever thought that he was a legit contender for Michelle's heart. Yeah. Yeah.

Cause I'm kind of wondering if it's like a production thing, right. Where she just hasn't gotten as much screen time and there's not things that we're seeing on screen, but I definitely agree where I thought it was Joe going in, like we said, but obviously with Nate or Nathaniel or whatever you want to call him he has gotten

the most screen time since day one I feel like I think that could be it we're just not seeing as much of Brandon but there is just definitely something as the viewer on the show that we're not we're not seeing the connection that would lead him to be the winner of the show is it because he

I mean he's had a decent amount of airtime. He got like... Didn't he get two group date roses in a row? That's pretty significant. That's the first time it's ever happened. Okay, there you go. Is it just the baby face? It could be the baby face.

And I think he's just... Look at the drama of the season and how strong of personalities. I feel like his personality, he has a great personality. But kind of similar to greg i guess where he's not like yelling in people's faces you know and he's not he's not in the drama and the weeds that would cause him to be like at the top of someone's mind yeah anyway so they they they had their date it seems and Brandon he's a very he's good with his words very

very charming he seems authentic and just like you know he's very thoughtful with his words like every word there was a point

in this episode Natalie and I are watching it by the time Nate like I did am I the only one who didn't love Nate

this episode I it was the way he was acting around the men that gave me kind of weird vibes yeah it was just Am I the only one who didn't love Nate this episode? It was the way he was acting around the men that gave me kind of weird vibes. Yeah, I like Nate. I've been a fan of Nate. If Nate doesn't win or if Nate didn't win, we're just going to assume. I might go over too and be like,

Nate's going to come in. I'm going to interview him and be like, oh, sorry. I was branding the whole time. I was way off. But if Nate didn't win, I think he could have been the bachelor. We've been very critical about Clayton, right?

And our friend of show, Mina Kimes, her and I were messaging. And she said, I think Nate wins because if Nate didn't win, I could see him as the bachelor. And that made me think, okay, we've been hypercritical of the choice to pick Clayton. You have three strong candidates for the bachelor in the final four. Why didn't you pick them?

And they're all nice men. But when you think about picking the bachelor it is different than picking like you know it's not about just four nice men or the winner but like joe for specifically beautiful love joe but joe is too like joe is not bachelor material because he is just too quiet and too introverted for that role i mean mean, it's just, you have to really, you have to talk a lot. I mean, that's the whole damn show. And that would just be too hard. And so Mina mentioned that to me and that was like, she made a really good point when she said that. It was like, maybe Nate does win because maybe Nate would have been up for consideration had Michelle not picked him. Yeah. I think with Nate too, he would have been a good Bachelor. It could be a good winner of the show as well because he...

Like we saw with his stepdad where he said that he's never said I love you to him. And he has a really hard time opening up. So I think that could be really good. And the Bachelor producers love casting a boy. I mean, they love to watch a guy who has very limited love experience a la Sean Lowe you know and they love that so the I've never I don't know

even know what love is it is their bread and butter they do really like that yeah it's like they want the most manly looking man ever but they want him to be like phase one to learn about love yeah they do quite like that. So maybe that's very possible

that it could have been Nate. That all being said, he kind of rubbed me the wrong way this episode. What about you, Rod? Yeah, yeah. I definitely thought... My favorite from this episode was Brandon and just the way he spoke to Michelle.

And I think that was... It was interesting to see because before it's usually been Nate or Joe that I've, that I've thought was the front runner. But yeah, it just, it wasn't, it wasn't the vibes, I guess we're going to say it in Gen Z terms. But I do think it's, it's interesting because like, I can't see Nate as a Paradise contestant, but I could see Joe as Paradise contestant or even Brandon, you know? Wait, what do you mean you don't see Nate as a Paradise contestant but i could see joe as a paradise contestant or even brandon you know wait what what do you mean you don't see nate as a paradise contestant i'm saying like the like with the bachelor from an outside perspective you know like the bat like you're i'm watching the show and like i'm like okay well like rodney's going to paradise you know like they already like kind

of sure preface that in the the mental but with with nate it's like, no, he is material for the love one-on-one Bachelor show, not the Paradise messy thrown into it. I mean, I would disagree on that in the sense that what Nate has written all over. of the past, the fan favorite but resonance of a fuckboy that you don't fully see in his season of The Bachelorette comes down to Paradise thinking he's hot shit, thinking this is going to be my audition for The Bachelor

and having hooked up with three or four women from other seasons on Paradise and gets the fuckboy at it. Michelle picking Nate to save him if he wasn't The Bachelor bachelor a really bad edit in about a year would be my prediction but um yeah but yet so there was so brandon at some point says the michelle is some version of like my heart now that my now that i know you and that i'm in love

with you my my heart my soul starts and stops with you. And just really just poetic things. I don't know if you had any of them written down. Oh, I do. Oh, you do. You do. There you go. Yeah. Brandon. Oh, go ahead, Allie. Oh, no. Well, just Brandon said that he is so lucky. Every time I'm with you, my heart grows. I don't want to be with anyone else other than you.

And she asked if it was realistic for Brandon to get to the point of an engagement. And he was like, from day one when I met you, I knew that you were the one. It hit when we were getting ice cream. I'm in love with you. I'm truly in love with you. I will always put you first. It was a lot of love.

A lot of love. Michelle being the person pushed me out of my comfort zone I think he said it's almost like he got the notes from that guy the first episode where they found his notes and then fast forward to Nate's date on the catamaran

before Michelle had to pull all those words out of Nate at dinner, Nate says to Michelle, you're something else. What is that? If you're on a date, the guy's like, oh, you. You're something else.

But forget being on a date. Pretend you're a week away from getting engaged and he says you're something else you're something else you oh you you're

you're something but yeah that's the thing about Nate though is that he pulls it off like I think oh he pulls it off I think if Nate was too effusive

with praise it would be it would read as like I'd be like oh this guy knows what he's doing like he's done this before he does look like he knows what he's doing like he's done this before he does look like he knows what he's doing

yeah because look where we're at already thinking that Brandon isn't going to win yeah right it's like he got us Nate got us Nate is 6'7

he's beautiful he's got I mean I've never seen someone pull off a nose ring like Nate it's beautiful I mean every time I see Nate

and his nose ring I'm like that's so cool yeah he looks so cool. Which is historically fuckboy material, but for him, he just makes it. I did the first impressions of her cast and I was like, okay, fuckboy. So you're convinced that Nate, and again, when I say fuckboy, I don't mean Martin fuckboy. I just mean his stepdad confirmed that Nate is in a period of his life where he's focused on his professional career.

He's out there dating. He's going out and good for him. He's just like casually dating. I mean, if you're paddleboarding three to four times a week, you don't have time for much else. It's just fucking work and paddleboarding. And he's definitely not you know, and he's staying

disconnected with his dates. And, you know, I'd like to believe that Nate isn't lying and he's not playing anyone. He's not leading, you know, and he's staying disconnected with his dates and, you know, I'd like to believe that Nate isn't lying and he's not playing anyone. He's not leading, you know, he's not leading on. He's just like, I don't know. I don't even know how to love. I can't possibly love you, girl I just met at a bar, you know, like, but he's having sex, probably.

And so... I think that's what's so fun about these, like, first impressions and why I like that they released the cast photos beforehand is because you already, like, you have in your head what each cast member is going to be but then you see the character development you're like oh my god wow that is not at all who i thought if you were feeling really vulnerable rod and you just poured your heart out and you know and they and they responded with you're something else like how would you feel would you feel i wouldn't feel i would yeah like why why would i'm not giving him a rose you know like that's just it's just it was it was such a

fascinating episode for me because again we've praised michelle so much for being so in tuned and so like self-aware and like when we interviewed her about you know having learned from her past and to me and again this is an edited show and they're gonna want to run in for interference and despite us i mean they they had michelle be like i'm in love with you so i don't know how much interference they're running in terms of wanting us to think it might be branded. Oh, it's wintertime, but fear not. Rum Haven is here to keep your parties tropical and feeling like paradise. That's right. Perfect for mixing to great, great cocktails or for enjoying on its own,

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that tropical feeling you so desire. Discover more recipes that will help you sip into paradise at rumhaven.com. It very much comes across the past couple of episodes with Michelle and Nate that there's a lot of like red flags there for Michelle. And she's basically said, like we all have done in our lives,

I'm going to try to figure out how I can turn these clear red flags into green flags or call them something else. And I'm just going to ignore them and I'm going to manipulate myself into thinking there's something else other than clear warning signs because this is what I want. Yeah. I feel like it's almost like we're going in reverse with the earlier episodes of like, you know what? I just want to get to know these people

more where I feel like she kept Nate and Brandon because she's getting to still know them. And there's been a little bit of hesitancy where Joe was like, no, I know what I want. And to you. And so for her to let go of Joe is just a complete surprise to keep, especially Nate, who was like,

you're, what did he say? You're, um, what did you keep saying? Just a moment ago, something else, something else.

Yeah. Like, well, realistically, again, you know, every season is different, but you know,

I knew I had decided I was going to pick Vanessa earlier on, you know every season is different but you know i knew i had decided i was gonna pick vanessa earlier on you know and i don't think i'm the i think i'm more the norm than the the minority in terms of knowing where your pick are what your pick is is certainly going into hometowns and fantasy suites so like the fact that nate is kind of revealing some of these red flags, I mean, Vanessa revealed red flags to me. I certainly was like, oh, shit, fuck, I don't know. Maybe it in the real world. And I was just like, fuck it. I've decided to do this. This is what I'm doing. And I like to think of myself as self-aware and learn from my mistakes and learn from my red flags. So what I'm saying Michelle is doing, I'm no different. But it is fascinating to watch Michelle seemingly ignore what seems to be so clearly obvious. I mean, it's just like if she ends up with Nate, it's just the odds are

stacked against anyone who's falling in love for the first time on a reality TV show to try to make a relationship that's already very hard to make work, having to watch this back, maintain and grow and build a relationship in a spotlight, very challenging stuff. And so... But I don't think she necessarily ignored the fact that his stepdad said that, that he hasn't been in love. Her whole voiceover before the dinner portion, she was like, I had a great day with him, as I always do when i spend time with nate but like this is a these are crucial questions and i'm going to ask him the tough questions like i truly think that if he would have given her like wishy

washy answers or like not been all in he probably would have been the one going home i don't think she's necessarily ignoring the red flags i think yeah right she definitely addressed it like well it's part of the show too and they're going going to be like, well, you got to ask Nate about the stuff. So there is that. And in life, we've all been there. Like we've had, we've dated people and we see it and we like want, we want to tell ourselves we're going to address it. We want to feel like we're not ignoring red flags. And we've all been there where we're like, I'm just, all right, I'm going to address it. But you don't really. And there was a point on the dinner date with Nate where after Michelle was like, I feel the same way. And Nate was like, it was basically like, phew. Nate basically audibly said like, oh, thank God. All right, finally. You finally believe what I'm saying. And I don't think Nate's being insincere. I just think this is clearly a guy who hasn't done this before.

This is new for him. And what a bizarre way to do it for the first time. I think it's been an interesting progression for Michelle this season as well, because we've seen up until now, her play the teacher with these little children that are on the show. And I feel like now with with this episode she's finally able to be her adult self you know and just like we're able to see how she would be in a relationship yeah she's very vulnerable right now

like you could you could see her vulnerability with Nate like the kind of the desperation of like say the right thing please yeah say the right thing and like you have the X factor. I think part of it is maybe thinking about what kinds of things Michelle views as fixable or coachable or navigable and what stuff it's like you either have it or you don't. And I think Nate just has the X factor. And I think because she's someone who's spoken about her ability to coach, it makes sense to me that she would be like, okay, well, all this other stuff we can work on together. You can't create this magnetic chemistry if it's not there. Yeah, I think Michelle is definitely charismatic too, which is good.

But I think Nate would be someone to bring more out of her, you know, because she would be him being a little bit more reserved and stuff. She's having to, you know, open up more and be more of a voice than he might be right now. Yeah, but it's kind of fascinating because Michelle has talked about not wanting to do that in her next relationship. But I mean, Vanessa was very much like every other girl I dated in the past.

So like I said before, on this world, in a limited time, as much as you want to think you're going to use this opportunity to break patterns and walk a new path. It's kind of fight or flight mode. You're like, fuck it.

I'm going to do what I know and hope it's different this time. That's when you present it with two people, three people, right? Two people that are a little different. One might be, oh, it's going to push me out of my comfort zone. But at the end of the day, you are faced with this moment like,

do I want to be safe and just know what I can already work with? Yeah. And again, we like Nate and Nate seems like he when we say red flags, we don't mean like he's a bad guy or anything. It's just it just seems like in a relation, fast forward six months from now, there might be

fights about her constantly feeling like she's the one coaching and guiding the relationship for her when it comes to connecting emotionally. Like every... Like Michelle will be the one guiding the

emotional like whatever the work you need to do in a relationship. Like initiating those conversations. I feel like yeah and just kind of being the adult in the room like not to say that Nate like but I just think compared to the two of them. His stepdad called him immature so I feel like we don't have to like tiptoe around

suggesting that maybe Nate is slightly underdeveloped emotionally relative to say maybe other people his age are we just like or we have no idea which is like in itself like kind of crazy it's more like you know Michelle's me like hey like let's talk about you know our feelings and then it would be like all right can we go paddleboarding like you know this is like he just Nate you know he's doing his best but there's there's some concerns. But yeah, there was something about the hubris around...

It's a fine line in this world. The hubris around Brandon and Joe. And it always gets... It's kind of a losing battle. Are you supposed to act demure and unsure of yourself when you know you're confident in a relationship with someone you're hoping to get engaged with and they're, you know what I'm saying? So like you'd want, that's an appropriate level of confidence. And yet we so often watch it, this show under a lens of

like, have a little more grace, man, with your connection. There's two other guys here and you know, it's tough. It's probably unfair to criticize Nate, but for whatever reason, he was like fucking with Brandon. Yeah, Rod, what did you think about the whole like Brandon versus Nate conversation where it's like, I think first is the best to go. I think third is the best to go, like the order conversation.

I think that kind of still shows the immaturity that these men have, which I think it was a really good point to put that in though, because it does keep the the dynamic going of like who really is she going to pick you know like one clear better than the other guy but this whole roommate situation has been interesting to watch especially with yeah it's something new they did when they started doing a peter weber season and they they did it because the maddie pruitt storyline of the virgin storyline and it was like no this, we should keep doing this.

This is really mean and cruel. And it makes for like, it always gives you an awkward TV moment. Because that's the, the, the best part of the show is like seeing that other people interact. To be honest, it's great that they're interacting with,

obviously the, the, the bachelor bachelorette, but like with Katie season, like we didn't, I don't, we never saw Justin Blake interact in the final episode. You know,

I think that would have added an extra dynamic to, to the show. So that's, I think it, yeah, it was definitely interesting conversation and still showed the immaturity that we all have, but you know,

that they definitely need to work on, which could kind of create a, well, who is she really going to pick? You know, if this is the side that we're seeing with them, it's weird too. Cause they,

you can tell they all kind of like each other they don't seem to there's no like rivalry route other than the obvious awkwardness would you rather go first second or third what's i think i would rather go first that's what i always said. So I was always happy when I was going first, but like never, yeah, never worked out. I think going first is just, it's a good place to be in. You get,

they have a clear head, you know, you're getting in when they have a clear head, you know, and then you're making an impression. You always remember the first and the last, not necessarily the middle. That's what they say. Well,

now we know the second spot is jinxed anyways. So don't go for second. If you were the bachelor though, would you want your first to go first or last? Your favorite to go first or last? Favorite? I want my favorite to go last.

See? Isn't that interesting how that changes when you... I feel like it depends on how confident you are. Yeah, I'm not confident. We all know it from my content. I'm self-deprecating.

So it's like, no, they're not going to pick me anyway, so I'm going to go first and just give a last fight for it. Or it's also like if you really think it's someone, then you might want to put them first because then it's like,

okay, we're locking it down. Now I know how to proceed in the other fantasy suites. If you have someone who you're like, I'm pretty sure this is my person, then maybe not trying to fuck the others yeah no I mean again I asked this as

someone who's like thought a lot about this being in it twice like going into fantasy suites I was like I think I hope I go first even in the second time I still wanted to go first does the lead pick the order do you like tell producers,

this is who I want to see? In what order? The lead definitely has some say at that end. But I'm trying to think back. You have to make a good TV too, though. Yeah, but at that point, the dates are kind of all whatever.

You know what I'm saying? Earlier on, the dates are... of all whatever. You know what I'm saying? Earlier on, the dates are... It's not a coincidence that they're tailor-made for the person who's afraid of heights or who dealt with a certain kind of death and something that can trigger them. And those are all kind of set up to... As much as they can, not always, but if there's a fit for someone on an early date, they'll go on that date

because it doesn't really make a difference. But when it comes to fantasy suite dates, they're not all that much different. I can confidently say that if a lead had a strong feeling about the order in which they hoped their person would go, they would accommodate that. But I think... I'm trying to think back when I was The Bachelor. Yeah, I think I just was down to have Vanessa go last. It's like you know you're going into this

week, depending on what you want to do. Are you going to have sex? Are you not going to have sex? You anticipate that the people you're going into the room with might want to have sex. How do you handle that? How do you potentially reject that and still want them to believe that you're going to pick them without giving yourself away? I don't know. I was very stressed. I assume most of my peers felt the same way. And I think there's a level of trying to get through the first two so that you can really enjoy the person you want to pick on the last fantasy suite. Because there's definitely a survival mode with the first two. Absolutely. Especially if you're not going to get physical.

I think it's probably relief for Michelle knowing her fantasy sweet date on Matt's season was butter right like they didn't they covered themselves up in butter I forgot about that

yeah so like I was thinking when I was watching this episode I'm like she's you know she's getting her redemption you know just enjoying her time

because that would have been miserable I also like that they whipped out the classic like fireworks to fuck with the others like you know the once a season move could you go ahead I know I just love that it was branding because I also like that they whipped out the classic like fireworks to fuck with the others like you know the once a season move go ahead

I just love that it was branding this fairy tale moment is going to mean the world to him and I'm really glad that he gets it yeah all it made me think about is how such a small thing I mean you know you hear you have Nate and Joe just being like it's very much

you just try to not think about it, out of sight, out of mind. And it's already a weird world. And then you see these fireworks and imagine going on a date with someone or being, imagine being in a relationship with someone because they all really feel like they have a relationship with Michelle. a relationship with Michelle. And then to just see fireworks knowing what they're for and knowing what... It's like those fireworks are basically the equivalent and maybe worse than having

a camera on the date and watching it. It's worse because you have your imagination. And you're just like the the fireworks are basically saying some version of what you hate is going on right now but we'll let your imagination you know take care of the rest but you know it's happening in that

moment and that's it's a there's such a small but powerful tool. The fireworks were not for Brandon and Michelle. They were not and that's why I'm sure she's going to pick Nate because I think that was her being kind of like needling Nate a little bit. She has nothing to do with that. I feel like it's like intentional that she wouldn't want to give it to Nate.

I'm telling you unless you want to argue with me about the production of the show. Yeah, I know better about the lead of the show, Nick. As a lead, you don't even know when fireworks are going to happen. They just happen. And you're like, oh, cool, we get fireworks. It might happen all the time.

I think it worked out perfectly to mess with Nate. They're not running that by. They're like, hey, Nick, there's going to be fireworks. Which one do you want to have? Fireworks? They're just not micromanaging that like hey and Nick there's going to be fireworks which one do you want to have fireworks they're not they're just not micromanaging that

there's just too much going on I like to believe that like every little detail is like within someone's control and like a creative choice on the leads part

same definitely not the leads part like the food fight I'm like okay yeah yeah falls down the stairs

it's like production but I love that you have that you know okay. Yeah. Yeah. Falls down the stairs. It's like production. But I love that you have that, you know, that energy. The imagination. The imagination is great.

I, I will say going into Joe's one-on-one, I was, so Brandon and Michelle, Brandon's just like, I'm falling in love with you. He's very infusive. Michelle doesn't hesitate. She's like, I'm falling in love with you too. She was very... Michelle was very generous with her words. And every time I watch these

interactions, it's hard not to think about how I was. And I said I was falling for Rachel and Raven. But credit to Michelle. She said it in a way that made me believe what she said to Brandon much better than I believed myself. And granted I was saying it and I didn't believe it at the time. I don't know what people thought watching it back when I said it to Rachel, but like Michelle seemed to really affected, you know, by those words. Now maybe it's because Brandon is so...

It's hard not to feel special when Brandon is telling you you're special. Yeah. She said there are people who say they would do anything for you. And then there's Brandon. He's just the next level. So I really believe that. And then so I was worried about... Immediately, as like going into Brio Joe's day, I'm like,

fuck it. Joe's getting the second date. Like, this fucker's going home. And, and yet on the date, I, I was like,

oh no, no. Like they had me convinced that I was like, no, I guess I was still worried for Joe, but still as a viewer and and i and i get defensive because like i having been in michelle's like you get it's frustrating when people are like i think you should pick so and so you know it's just like congratulations who you

think i should pick like it's a tv show either way i don't want to pick this person. So like, whatever. But yet I couldn't help but be like seeing what seems to be a really good match with Joe and Michelle on this date. It's always nice to see like, you know, someone's strengths and weaknesses and Joe being a quiet person. I'm sure it's been a strength and a weakness for him. But like, clearly Michelle wants him to give more

and so he's yelling and zip lining. And it seemed like he, I love the effort from Joe. Like he was like, I need to do this because I know she wants me to do this and I love her. So I want to do this for the person I love. And Michelle's like, he's doing it because he loves me.

And it was like such a nice little moment. And I don't know. It was like, I don't know. What, what did you think, Rob? Are you?

Yeah. I think like even the top four, I was like, man, any of these guys could, could get it, you know? And know what what did you think Ra are you yeah I think like even the top four I was like man any of these guys could get it you know and it's just you know I think everything changes you know you hear that in the show a lot but I think everything that happens on the show it's like something new could happen you know

so all that said yeah I'm in I have I was shocked to see Jogo home because I definitely thought he was going to be the one but But even between these last two, I'm still... I know she picks Nate, but even with Brandon, it could be a wild card if she ends up picking him.

Also, the next morning with Joe, it seems spicy. The food fight. Brandon had a hoodie on, Joe shirtless in bed. You know, like if I'm Nate, I got some questions. You know?

Yeah, yeah. So like Joe looked like a stud there. They're wearing the same outfit as the night before. I also feel like they should have played basketball, in my opinion. Like I think if they played basketball, Joe wouldn't have gone home. Because I think, and I'm fixated on this but like in the season when Michelle watched Joe play basketball

I think there was something like I think that's what reminds her of home like I think that is what reminds her of like how deeply they have like this like shared language and experience that the two of them can understand and like I just listen in my perfect world and Katie has shown us,

Ari has shown us, Pilot Pete has shown us that the person they pick might not be the person they're best matched with, even among the people casted. You know, big fan of Hannah Ann, but like clearly that was maybe like Pete's fourth best connection. Right.

Uh, Katie, you know, ran through break. Blake is now dating someone. She sent home like week two, Kelly didn't make it to hometown. So in my,

in my dream world, Nate and Michelle get engaged. They just really, you know, Nate's just like, I do love you. But like, also, I don't even know what that means. And I just, I got paddle boarding. And Michelle's like, I don't want to take, I don't want to teach you how to do this. And then she runs into Joe at the grocery store.

And he's out like hooping. And like, you know, Joe's hooping. And like, you know, he misses for the first time out of 20 and it bricks and it rolls off and the basketball rolls and it's Michelle's foot stops it and pan up and she's like

and she's like and one and they like play a game of horse and like loser has to give the winner a kiss and they fall in love and we can watch their story unfold. I think this might be the first ever part two. Michelle's

bachelorette part two. That's my dream because who knows if Michelle's right for any of these guys. Whatever. But I believe sometimes other seasons, right?

Like, you know, with Katie, Katie's man, it's just like, I don't know. I think Blake was really into Katie, but like, I don't know. You know, the connections, I don't know. But like Brandon for sure. And then Joe, he's quiet. So harder to read. You don't, you know, maybe is this guy, but I really felt like this episode, Joe was just like,

I believe Joe's feelings for Michelle. I felt like he really wanted this to work. Like I really bought it, you know? And I felt like he was really sad. I mean, this is the son of a man who at hometown is like, so what do you want to talk about? His dad's like, I'm good. You know, it's like a man, a few words.

And yet Joe has really given it his all. And it's just, I was like, my heart endured for him. I think his, his fight back to, to like prove who, that he's not who he came in when she was like,

Oh, you left me on red. You know, he's like, and then he said in the first episode, I'm going to prove to her that I'm not who she thinks I am. And then he did. And then he didn't get the rose.

Yeah. And I really appreciate Joe being like, you know, like what, what is nice is that this seems like if nothing else, this was a, a really good thing for Joe. Like this experience isn't always good for everyone,

but I feel like Joe really kind of branched out, got out of his shell, got out of his comfort zone and I feel like my hope for Joe is that he will lean on this experience and keep pushing himself

because it it seemed like a sincere he recognized the growth he showed in this short period of time and I thought that was also fun to see even though Michelle decided not to see it or appreciate it it was like honestly it was like Dumbledore dying when Joe didn't get a rose I was like I thought that was also fun to see, even though Michelle decided not to see it or appreciate it.

It was like, honestly, it was like Dumbledore dying when Joe didn't get a rose. I was like, Oh my God, like this person who I've always thought like, cause he's just so solid. And so I think it was,

and I think it also like, to me, the fact that Joe, Michelle has like Joe and Brandon, like to me, that is the biggest indicator that Nate has something really good going on if like those are the things that Michelle is passing up in favor of.

Yeah. Yeah. Because they're more similar than Nate. Totally. Yeah. And like Rodney, like I think you could group

like Joe, Rodney, Brandon, like her top, like all three of the other ones are all like rock solid people who it seems like are really great partners. And so if she's going to pick Nate over them, I must assume that there are moments where Nate has proven his ability

to be a good partner. Well, it's kind of fascinating, right? Because like Nate is going to be the, just another First Impression Rose winner, right? We've talked so much about Nailed it. I forgot he was the first impression rose.

Groundbreaking. And we've talked so much how The Bachelorette has a better track record than The Bachelor. And I think that's true only because there's... Sean Lowe is still the only person to still be with the person they actually picked.

I mean, Ari's with... And Jason, right? Yeah, they're both with their runner up. So that's still something, but not the person they picked. But as time has gone on, you got JoJo and Jordan. And then you got...

Well, I mean, and then you had a couple... You had a divorce with... Oh, JP? Yeah, Ashley and JP. I mean, they had kids and got divorced. They were together a long time. Counts. It's like if you have kids together, it counts.

But I guess, since the string of first impression rose winners started with Caitlin, that's when the streak started with Sean. Not dating. And then we the streak started with Sean. Not dating. And then we had JoJo still dating.

Brian and Rachel are still dating. Becca, not dating. Katie, not dating. Tayshia, not dating. Claire. Claire, not dating. Prove true. Very, very Claire. Claire not dating. Prove true. Very, very true.

Claire's gay. Well, Tayshia didn't pick her first impression rose person. I mean, that guy. That's so interesting. That guy's part of the...

To be fair though, I don't feel like that breaks the streak necessarily because that was just such a weird season of coming in. No, no. I'm saying for the people

who picked their first impression rose. And I'm just saying like, you know, the way we're describing Rodney or Joe or Brandon and, you know, we talk so much about the relationships in the show. It's just like, it seems like, and again,

The Bachelor is such an imperfect world and I'm as guilty as anyone for saying out of limo, bam, like this is my crush. I can't get out of my head of my crush. I want to make this work. This is who I want. I want to convince myself to have all these qualities. And I'm going to keep getting to know all these other quality people along the way. And I'm going to be impressed at times. And I'm going to grow connections. I'm going to find this respect. and I'm going to be impressed at times and I'm going to grow connections.

I'm going to find this respect, but nothing is going to allow me to overcome that immediate crush I have of getting on a limo. And it really makes you wonder about, yeah, the strength of the choice because back to what we were talking about before, I don't know if it ever really mattered what Joe or Rodney or Brandon

said or how strong they were. Nate was so far ahead after night one. That it was going to be confirmation bias. It was going to be confirmation bias the whole way, even with someone like Michelle. Yeah. I mean, even on the

other side of it, even if we're going out first impressions, like Rick came out in a table and usually those dates or those impressions are like the ones that gets in a home night one, but he went pretty far. You know, they, he was, he was a crowd favorite. So it is just crazy how the first impression rose could like legitimize someone so much more, you know, as a contestant. Yeah. It's a, it is kind of fascinating. Rod, have you ever thought about what you would do for

an entrance if you were on the show? I've always thought it'd be funny to already be in there. Like turn around. They walk in like Michelle would walk in and she'd be like like she would get in there and she's like, oh, I forgot

who he was. I don't remember meeting him, you know, the whole night and then like pull her aside like we didn't actually meet and then i would get quality time because then she'd want to get to know me in that moment because i already had made such an impression that's a great idea i wonder that's genius it's good now i wonder i'm thinking from a producer standpoint if you pitch that right because they always ask like what do you want to do like they'll give they would give you the opportunity to pitch that to them. And I'm wondering if they would, what they would say to that

because like, are you taking, yeah. I think it'd make that work. Or if I would go on the side and like meet Caitlin and Tate first, like, hey guys,

and just like walk past and walk right inside and sit down and then they would have their own little moment of like, they're quirky, like, oh my God,

what's happening? Is this like someone sneaking in, all this stuff ends up, I'm just like, A girl did that once where she just like

silent like walked in oh really yeah she was silent different from what you're yeah don't worry

oh she like walked past the bathroom walked out the limo walked past was like quiet and it was a bold move it was more of a I'll see you inside

yeah it was like find me you know you want to get to know me no I think I would do like more like sweet like oh hey can I see you

for a second and then her be like yeah I have to remember who this guy was and think I would do more like sweet like, oh, hey, can I see you for a second? And then her be like, yeah, I have to remember who this guy was. And then I would play it up a little bit, be like, yeah, so it's great to meet you.

And be like, we actually did meet, you know, and then. Yeah, be like, what's my name? You know, it'd be kind of meta and I don't think they would allow this.

If you like, the producers always wear all black. So if you dress like a producer. What about holding a boom mic? Yeah. And then you like rip off the all black it's like one of those onesies you rip off and it's like a full on suit and you have a rose and you're like

and she legit doesn't know if you were a producer or are a producer you're like two weeks in I'm giving her like oh I heard this and you're like full on talking shit about all these guys. I don't know. I don't know. I planted the notes in that guy's room.

You know, I just think Nate's a fuck boy. I don't know. I'm just saying I get, I get, I get a weird vibe and you're like, she's like, really,

what do you know about Nate? And she's believing you more because here, he thinks you're a producer. And then you document the whole thing with a GoPro. Yeah. And you kind of have a of have a producer look to you. You have the beanie. Yeah, you have a... Yeah.

What did we think of Brandon pulling Michelle? Before the... What did we think about that? It was a move. I would have liked it more had he gone home. Like, had he gone home? Well, he didn't know.

Yeah, I know. I just... In Amanda's world, it's all... It's all simulation. I just mean that, like... I don't know. I think I, like... If it had felt like he was really reading the room

and really was like, I'm going home and I just want to make sure she doesn't... Like, this doesn't torture her. Like, you know, it, like, I didn't, did you think it was like, I guess the question to pose is like, did people think it was an angle or did people think it was him really just genuinely wanting to communicate that he wouldn't be upset? Yeah. Well, if you, to call it an angle, that would be like, we all, you know, that's like saying giving someone flowers as an angle, you know? Yeah, or like rather, was it something that was like him trying to get time with her again to like show his love in that way?

I wish I knew your side. Maybe a little bit of both, but I will say like if I were Nate and Joe, certainly I'd been irritated. Sean did it on a rose ceremony on Caitlyn's season. I was just like, what the fuck, bro? So you're certainly irritated if you're the other two guys. In defense of Brandon, though, his words

were good. He knows how to use his words for sure. I think I would naturally want to do that you know because i would automatically again think that i'm like okay well i'm not getting it it's after seeing joe who she's had chemistry with the whole season and then nate too well she has chemistry with brandon too but like these other two guys we like again we're shocked that joe went

home so i could see being an angle to solidify like hey i'm still still on it now if if you're brandon like michelle was like crying so like when when Brandon's saying this Michelle I was like oh shit maybe Brandon is going home because it sure came across as he's saying all these beautiful things and Michelle knows that she's going to hurt him and even though Brandon got a rose you you can't be feeling all that great. Uh, you know, because Nate wants everyone, Nate wants Joe and Brandon to know that he's going to win without saying it. Like he has such like, I don't know, fuck, I'm not worried his bravado. Like, and I, and so you're Brandon and, and you're saying all these things, like if you, you know, all these beautiful things,

and she is crying looking like, I know I'm going to break your heart. And if you're Brandon, like, how do you not see that? Like, would you, what would you, if you were saying these things, would you want, how would you want that person to respond? It's almost like she, he set himself up not for failure but like when he doesn't win now you know it's like man i really i really could have taken that chance to like because she could now have that back of her head like oh man i panic chose brandon you know and that now it's solidified that it's n, you know, where before

it could have been a more, like, natural decision. Yeah, I don't know if it really changed her mind at all. I mean, I'm 100% convinced that it did not have anything to do with her decision. She walked in knowing that Joe was going home.

Yeah, and again, back to everything we just talked about before, like, she was very quick to say that she was falling in love with Brandon. She had every opportunity to say it to Joe. You know, I think we have been blinded by Joe's beauty. I think we like Joe and Michelle better than Michelle's ever liked Joe and Michelle. Sure. Right? So I think it's been harder for us, the audience,

to get on board with Brandon because we think it fits and we like it. But for all we know, it was always Brandon over Joe. Knowing what we know now, and having been in Michelle's shoes, I would say it's probably more likely that it was always Brandon

over Joe. It's just never been Brandon over Nate. But if just never been Brandon over Nate. But if you're Nate, Michelle kind of gave herself away in the fact that it's not going to be you at the end. Like you got the rose, great. You beat Joe. But like, that's as far as you're going. Yeah.

Yeah. Poor guy. Well, we, Florida asking him all these questions. Oh yeah. Can't wait to hear all these questions. Oh, yeah. Can't wait to hear it. Speculation about engagement. It seems like that is the direct two people think. Yes.

Yeah. Because before I thought like Michelle, I thought it was actually kind of a threat of the season was like, will she get engaged or not? Which is maybe. Yeah. Michelle made it very clear that that's what she expects. And Nate's just going to kind of do whatever he think he's he should do which is again probably a big picture concern but you know all right fine fuck it you want me to okay whatever i'll take this neil lane ring yeah i don't think he wears his emotions on his sleeve

but i do think that he's still an emotional person you know so i definitely see him getting down on one eight to propose yeah but more more importantly, he's just kind of like easy. It's like, whatever, man. As long as I get to paddleboard, it's cool. Three to five times a week, right? He actually appears to the platform to propose on the paddleboard and jumps

off. He's like, Michelle, hey. I'm just saying, clearly, Nate hasn't given a lot of thought. Some people are just like, I'm only saying he's just, like, clearly Nate hasn't given a lot of thought. So he's never, you know, some people are just like, you know, I'm only getting engaged once. And like, fuck,

I've only known, you know, they go through this whole, like, I mean, I engaged. I mean, I like you.

I love you even, but like engage. And Nate's just kind of like, I mean, I think you're just supposed to get engaged. Like, I don't know. I signed up for the show.

So like, Oh, this works, right? Yeah. It's, you know, the phrase it's like,

don't sweat the small stuff. And it's all small stuff. I feel that's like, don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff? I feel like that's how Nate lives. He's like, it's all small stuff. Getting engaged, all small stuff. He looks in the mirror every day and is like, I honestly have nothing to worry about. Which is like, I'm so envious in so many ways of how Nate goes about that life sometimes.

It's such a gift. I don't know someone like yourself rod who do you ever get envious of people like nate who doesn't seem like they understand the word anxiety oh every day of my life yeah and maybe nate does we don't really know him we don't want to just diminish any struggles that nate has but yeah but i think what makes it better is I know that Nate wouldn't belittle me for my anxiety. He'd be like, all right, man, whatever you got to do. It's like, I'm good.

Just give me, meet me up. Someone like Martin would be like, suck it up. Yeah, 100%. Rod, thanks so much for joining us. Please always let my audience know where they can find you. Yeah, yeah.

At Rod on TikTok, justme.rod on Instagram and podcast launching beginning in 2022. Ooh, great. Well, congratulations. Be sure to check that out. Don't forget to send your questions at asknickatcastme.com,

cast with a K for Ask Nick episodes and be sure to keep listening for a fantastic and insightful episode. All Things About Dreams with Ian Wallace. Bye. for a fantastic and insightful episode, All Things About Dreams, with Ian Wallace. Bye.