The Viall Files - E362 Viall Files: Memorable Moments from 2021

Episode Date: December 29, 2021

Today we’re celebrating the end of 2021 and another year of Viall Files! In this episode we’ll go through some highlights from the year, talking about highs, controversies, regrets, and everything in-between! We start off this episode by highlighting things that happened in our lives: from vibrating underwear, butterflies, and Meatball-gate! We also highlight interviews such as with Tinx, Steve-O, Andy Grammer, and Olivia O’Brien. Each interview taught us something unique about love and life and we wanted to show the best moments in conversation. We talk some regrets from this year, where we could have gone deeper with Katie speaking poorly of Thomas and Nikki explaining a theory from a book she read that, at the time, made our heads turn. Next we thank all of our Ask Nick callers and highlight some great takeaways from the year. We close with discussing the controversy with Gaslighting and the various conversations we had to find out when to use a term and the benefits and harm in defining a behavior.  Thank you so much for listening this year! We look forward to 2022!  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Check out our new "Introvert" merch at www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Audible: Go to http://www.Audible.com/HolidayRomance to listen to exclusive stories, original podcasts, and more!  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to our last episode of the year on the vol files and once again we thank you for choosing us it's been a fun year a i don't even know how many episodes we dropped this year um a lot um we've had some highs we've had some lows but thankfully you guys have stuck around it's always been fun to see people uh discovering our show as always you know how rewarding this is for me so thanks for listening and we thought we'd bring you a best of uh of all things vile files from our ass nicks to our some of our favorite interviews to just some of our favorite moments and things we learned things that you know got the beehive going or whatever rattled some cages triggered people whatever you know we we covered it all again hope you had a very merry christ. I hope you are staying safe,

staying inside Ellie and Amanda. How are you excited for it? Yeah. But also congratulations on you're kind of like a one year, it's like a little over a one year anniversary. Our first project last year working for you was doing the like best of 2020. So this is like very serendipitous. What did we do for it? We didn't do like an episode. We did like,

no, we did like an Instagram post. Yeah. Great. This is better. Yeah. I agree. Absolutely.

Yeah. Well, we want to keep you waiting because there's a lot here to unpack and digest. Again, don't forget to send our questions at ask Nick at cast me.com

cast for the K. Can't thank you enough for listening to us this year. Next year is going to be amazing. So excited to bring you more great episodes with the Vile Files. And it's going to be better than ever. And excited about the guests. We're going to bring you the conversations. It's going to be a ton of fun. And we appreciate you choosing us. choosing us. Well, we're going to kick things off with the very wonderful Dr. Laura Berman, who was our guest on episode 235. I think what I loved most about this conversation is that it really kind

of kicked off further conversations that we had on this show. And specifically when Dr. Berman talked about butterflies being a potential red flag, you know, and we're so quickly trying to find the butterflies and those feelings when we're on our first dates and why that might be the wrong approach. We've talked about this concept with even Logan Urie about the spark and things like that, but it was it started with Dr. Berman and certainly a dialogue that we've continued on our Ask Nick's. And so it's always a great reminder to remember that we should have kind of different expectations than we're normally

used to telling ourselves on first dates. So let's play the tape with Dr. Laura Berman and our conversations about butterflies. How do we police ourselves? How do we, there are a lot of ways. We hate taking advice from our friends, right? We, you know,

we, how do we see it? Because sometimes, you know, we get in these relationships and then you're like, you got to almost have to like, you know, give it a shot date for a few months.

But why do we see those red flags sooner than we would in the past? And then how do we address it? And what's the difference between say a red flag and an actual problem yeah because like not all red flags they're red flags are just like no things that might come up from the past and then you get to address them curious about it right and you explore it but if you have a pattern where you are repeatedly getting into relationships with cheaters or with you you know, people who are hypercritical or people who abandon you or people who can't commit or people, whatever, you know, if there's a pattern there, then what I like to recommend is that you completely stop dating for a while and you really do like an emotional reset

and do some of that internal work that I was talking about earlier. If it's about recognizing, you know, and so if you just tend to always go for the bad boy, usually I find that is because you get grossed out. You want intellectually someone who isn't a bad boy. But once you are with the guy who treats you well, you get grossed out because he's so into me, something must be wrong with him. Because I don't deserve that is what it fundamentally comes down to. So almost always I find, especially with women who are repeatedly going for the bad guy, even though they don't want to, it's because on some level, they got the story, adopted that, internalized that that's really what they deserve,

and they get grossed out with the person that treats them well. So that's another scenario. But in general, I think if you really want to change your type, stop dating your type. This is the thing that a lot of people don't realize, that those butterflies you feel where you, if you're someone who repeatedly dates people that aren't good for you, the next person you go out on a date with and you feel like you've known them all your life and they're so familiar and you have butterflies, run. Okay? Do not go on a second date with them because that is your system's warning symbol

butterflies are a warning it's a warning always um often it's a fear you know it could be like oh shit i'm really into this person and i'm scared i'm gonna get hurt butterflies this is actually actually encouraging for me well i me too you should feel when you find one you should feel like you're peaceful boring no that's someone who's used to drama peaceful is not boring i like that because i'll say why i like that because i've i've joked as i've gotten older you know you're young you can feel butterflies, your excitement. You just don't, you know, you don't know. Right. And then maybe that other person who reminds you

that it's like, and you're right. You find that if you have heartbreak, I think a lot of us, I know I did. And I think a lot of people who listen to this podcast do it where you're trying to find that again. Yeah. And so you want what you, it's like. You want to make it right.

You want, yes. And that's what I, you know, my first relationship was like my, you know, I'll blame my parents. Their greatness was my problem because I was like, you know, I'll fight for this. I'll make it right. You know, I'll figure it all out. But as I've gotten older, I've gotten worried about I'm never going to fall in love again. I think if I'm not on TV in a controlled environment where it's like this pressure,

because I don't remember the last time I felt butterflies, right? Where I like, I don't know. I don't get excited. I don't like, cause what is that? You know,

I had a more kind of thoughtful level headed approach to dating. It was just like, okay, we'll see. Yeah. You know, I, it would hurt.

It would be hard for me to get excited because to me, it was just like, I don't know. I, I, before I i it was the blissful ignorance of like well i'm not now you're more cautious and now i'm more cautious and i i didn't i always like was i didn't like being called cynical just because i decided not to be like oh my god i had like a nice time and i got butterflies but then it was a little nerve-wracking because want to feel, you know, what is it going to tell me? And for me in my current relationship, it took me several months to be okay with, I'm ready to invest in this relationship. Yeah, because you didn't have butterflies. It was, yeah.

It was like a peaceful. But you're attracted to her. Oh, yeah. I mean. And you have passion with her. And there was, I mean, I like that you called peaceful because it was yeah it was like but you're attracted to her oh yeah i mean you have passion and there was i mean i like the i like that you called peaceful because it was it was always fucking peaceful it was like i've never you're and if you're used to like chaos in your relationships peaceful feels uncomfortable and like something's off and we also have this story that love is supposed you know because what we see in the movies and everything that and on The Bachelor, lasting love is the love that is in what scientists call the attachment stage. It's a sweeter, softer, peaceful, intimate,

emotionally connected, deep love where what love really is in its purest form is I'm taking you emotionally as part of me. So to hurt you would be like hurting me, you know, and vice versa that, that we, you know, that, um, that we're connected in that way. I'm going to go back to Dr. Berman only because in this episode before she left, uh, she, uh, gave, uh, me, she gifted me some, uh, sex toys. one of which was vibrating panties, which I'd never seen or heard of before. But we ended up sharing the story when Natalie, myself, and Cindy went to dinner. And well, it was certainly one of the most adventurous things I've ever done in a relationship. So we'll just play the tape. Can I i give you want me to give you a present yeah this may be your valentine's day

gift for your girlfriend amazing sex toys i'm so jealous right now i'll send you one too okay you ready i am you're probably a guy that likes the remote, I'm assuming. What do you mean by the remote? Do you like controlling the remote? Like in general? Yeah, like in the TV. Do I need to feel empowered? This isn't a psychological question. Sure, I don't know.

I mean, we both have access to the remote. So these are the underwear. Oh my God, it's underwear. Those go in the crotch and of the underwear that little bullet okay and then this is your remote oh wow feels fun is it vibrating yeah it works up to 12 feet away so she this goes in the crotch of the panties okay and then you can zap her boy that's whenever you want on and off from from 12 feet away. Are these comfortable for women to wear?

Very comfortable. They're modeled after hanky-pankies, which are some of my favorite underwear. So you, in theory, could wear this all day? Well, yeah, but you also, you could wear it all day. You're being optimistic, but like a lot of people, you know, now you wouldn't... So it fits in here. Yeah, and you could go, you could put it in any underwear, but those underwear have like a slit for them. And then you can.

Well, that's what I'm saying. You wouldn't put these on to start your day and then wonder if you're within 12 feet. You might. But I like to tell couples when they're going for Thanksgiving at their horrible in-laws house, you can wear them. I like that. Or a boring cocktail party or something or just around the house. You can wear them. I like that. Or, you know, a boring cocktail party or something,

or just around the house. That's fun. Yeah. Look at them vibrating. I love it. Look at them shaking. Look at them shaking. That was not what I thought was going to happen.

So those, those are from, yeah, I have a line of toys that I developed for women and that, that's sort of intended to really spice things up and create some playfulness between the two of you. I like the idea of creating playfulness in boring situations. Yeah, it's really fun. Because I also can see where this could get annoying.

Yeah. If abused. Yes. With great power comes great responsibility. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Discover your holiday love story with Audible. Listen to exclusive stories, original podcasts, and more. Exactly. Exactly. While you're going with romance favorites like Eight Winter Nights and Nick and Noel's Christmas Playlist, tis the season to get cozy. Go to audible.com slash holiday romance.

Listen now, only from Audible. Interestingly enough, not only did Dr. Laura Berman's sex toy gift turn into a good story between Nellie and I, but Cindy was at that dinner and it was around the time where she was trying to convince me to get a dog, but I was still on the fence. And as much as Cindy sometimes drives me nuts, she is great. I'm thankful of having her. And I couldn't be more thankful for Jeff, who's quickly become a great love of my life. So let's play the tape on that. And anyways, she's like, I got to make it. I have an announcement to make. And I was like, worried.

I was like, what is Sydney's big announcement? And her announcement was like, these fucking dogs I've never met are going to be fucking soon. So I may or may not be able to buy one of those dogs. I was so pissed. I was like that. It was like,

she like took you all to dinner. Yes. Like draw. She called in a favor. She was like, she was like, I really, I really want you to come to in a favor she was like she was like i really i really want you to come to this dinner i was like all right well fine and then as soon as he got there she has some big announcement like the dogs are gonna be doing it also use dr berman's

panties by the way i did it but i was like hey this is a perfect time to like the it was a zap zapping the shit out of her uh and then i like i was super stoned so like i actually i turned it on and forgot about it so she's looking 50 shades she's she's looking natalie natalie's looking at me like giving me a look and again because sometimes i say shit i shouldn't shouldn't say it and i'm super stoned i'm like but i say something should i not be saying this no it turns out like I was just like zapping her for a good three minutes. And it is, we had a lovely dinner with her family last night

and I did enjoy myself. And her brother bought us, got paid for dinner. It was very nice of him. That's so nice. Keeping with the vibrator theme, I'm glad that we're a sex positive show here. And we can, I think more I'm proud of myself that as a male host with a predominantly woman audience that we can successfully talk about sex toys without hopefully me coming across as weird.

I don't know what you have to say about that, Amanda, seeing as that the next story is basically highlighting you. No, I think you're very good about not, you know, keeping boundaries, keeping it appropriate. I think if anything, there's some oversharing that happens in the office that you really nip in the bud. Yeah, I do. It's a fine line when you're running, I guess, a show or a podcast. It's about vulnerability and sex and relationship. And yet it's still the workplace. And you're trying to draw boundaries with people who not only work for you, but are women. And it's walking a tightrope, man. I don't know. But this was one of my favorite stories from our Ask Nick's. And you you basically it was really your kind of coming out party on

the show and i say that because not everyone agreed with you and i know that you were bummed out by some of the critiques you got i was not bummed out i thought it was funny how much i was getting flamed in the comments by people who don't know like who had a slice of the story you were you were a little you were a little bummed out. I will say I was wrong. Like, I agree with you. I think the thing about reaching out to people after the fact, that's something I've really thought about. And I've changed my mind.

Anyway, it was a great bit of vulnerability you shared with us. And I do think it was a helpful takeaway. And I think we all learned a lot from you sharing something that you realize that you can improve on so let's play the tape amanda's vibrator gift dilemma i have no idea what to get you for your birthday like it's that weird ambiguity like it's that weird middle ground phase where it's like i don't you weren't like straight up boyfriend and girlfriend no not at all but he was like he was like i'll get you on that's the perfect birthday gift i don't know but you're fun sex partners so that's fun and then things ended and now i feel guilty did he

ask for it back no but i ended because he bought you a vibrator but on one hand i was like should i get him for it but i was also like i wouldn't have spent this much on a vibrator that was a game how much did you spend on it? Is it a good one? Is it like $150? I think it was like $100. I don't give a gift back. I get why you would feel weird. I don't think you should feel weird.

If you want to keep using it, go nuts. Also, you guys are having sex. And that's something you brought into your sex life. So that's fun. I don't think what he did was anything wrong, but it's a little like, I don't know. I feel bad because I think like I was the one who was like,

at first I was like, Oh, I don't think I want to, I was like, I don't want to be hooking up exclusively anymore. Like, and then I was like, I actually don't want to hook up with you at all anymore.

And so I feel like I was the one who sort of ended stuff and that it was like very close after. Listen, if you're a guy good, good on you for being sex positive, sex toy positive and realizing that your tool isn't the only tool that she might enjoy during the bedroom. Nevertheless, if you're going to gift a woman a sex toy before you two are in a like serious committed relationship, understand that because it's not a committed serious relationship, and even if it is, it can still end. So like, that's kind of on you.

Wait, is someone asking for this toy back? No. But I'm just saying like, I feel guilty because I'm like, Why? Don't. Just go do yourself and get over it. What's he going to do with it?

Use it on himself? Like, no. I mean, and just to be clear, he hasn't like thrown it in your face. Like, but I got you a dildo. No. If I gave back everything that someone had given to me, I wouldn't have any fine jewelry left. Like, no, you keep it. Allie's like, I have to give back my fine jewelry and i'm

there's a there is a reason why vibrators and dildos don't come with strings attached i know well it wasn't too long ago but we're gonna play the tape for what we now is known as meatball gate i spent spent Thanksgiving with Natalie's extended family. And I shared a story about a decision I made in terms of eating my meatballs rather than eating grandma's stuffing. I will say, you know, and also I got flamed in the comments. Many, most people disagreed with me. What do you think about this amanda and natalie and i were uh planning dinner last night she's like what are we having for sides because i care

more about the sides and i think is it safe to say that women care more about sides than men in a meal like i feel like generally men like the the the pro like with the the mashed potatoes or the like women like sides i really don't think it's a gendered thing it's not you think most people like sides i think well okay i think there's it's kind of like i feel like in a lot of families it's sort of like the dad is the one who's grilling if it's like a mother dad situation so i could see that like sort of like i think when it comes to meat i could see that being more closely associated with like a masculine thing do you think that you like if you could do it again what would you do the exact same goddamn thing you want to know why because uh grandma called the other day and grandma called specifically wanted to thank me for all the wonderful

photos i took of the family, specifically this photograph I've took of her and her husband, which I can confidently say will be showcased at every anniversary they have. And grandma called. So I just want to, I just want to thank Nick for all the wonderful photos. And grandma got off the phone and I turned to Natalie. I said, that's why I don't have to eat grandma's stuffing because I don't like stuffing. And I found a way to add value to grandma's life. So grandma doesn't care about me not eating stuffing anymore. And I still got to enjoy my meatballs

and I don't really care what her sisters have to say. So whatevs, again, like it's fine. Would I do it again? Yeah, I totally would do it again. I mean, like if I could go back in time, I think I would have like found the mashed potatoes that I don't mind eating. I wouldn't have eaten grandma's stuffing. I just, I despise stuffing. Anyways, play the tape. Let's see if you guys still agree with me or not. Or let's see if you guys still disagree with me. Either way, I'm still in grandma's good graces. I went to Natalie's family's Thanksgiving.

And so it's her extended family. So it's all her dad's side of the family. And she has this adorably cute old grandparents that are still together and whatever. Really, really lovely family. So everyone kind of makes food for this potluck style Thanksgiving.

Right? And so Natalie volunteered me to make meatballs. The infamous meatballs. When it comes to cooking, I'm really good at cooking like 10 things. Do a few things well. I'm good at cooking meatballs. I like meatballs. They're good.

Natalie volunteered me for the meatballs. So I'm like, okay, a lot of work, but happy to do. So like Thanksgiving morning, like Natalie got all the ingredients and like, we, we got like an Airbnb, like whatever I made meatballs. And so I was like, I'm just making meatballs all morning. Like I make the sauce from scratch. I make them like, it's a process, you know, like four pounds worth of meat, you know, for like, cause it's like, I don't know how many people were there. I think like 30, 40, 30, 20, I don't know. It's a big group. Yeah. And so like I make the meatballs and I bring them and then like, you know, like I, I was meeting everyone, the few handful of people in our family I had already met, you know, so I have a bit of a rapport. So I was like, Hey, you gotta,

you gotta try my meatballs. You know, like I made a couple comments about like the fact that I made the meatballs, but it wasn't like I was like pushing them, making a big deal. Just like, I was just making conversation. Can you imagine if you were making Thanksgiving all about your meatballs? I definitely, I definitely didn't do that. Like I definitely mentioned I brought the meatballs to like, just a couple people that I knew. I was like, oh yeah, you'll have to let me know what you think. So dinner rolls around and I go up and I like, I don't like mix.

First of all, I'm also, when it comes to Thanksgiving food, I'm just not like a huge fan of. Just, I'm not. Okay. Are we talking just like feel neutrally to bad about everything or actively dislike? No, it's like, if I had it my way, like nothing about Thanksgiving,

the traditional things that are served, I'm not a fan of any of them, including Turkey. That's surprising. As a man who consumes no less than five Turkey sandwiches a week. Yeah. As a sandwich. It's a little bit surprising, but I hear you. As a sandwich, it's fine. But like, I'm just not like. I feel like the sides are way better than the actual Turkey. A lot of people think that way, but I don't like stuffing. I don't like cranberry. Like Natalie made a green bean casserole. No thanks. I'm just not a huge fan. Mashed potatoes? Yeah, I like mashed I know my meatballs are good. I like my meatballs. So like I made the meatballs and I didn't want to mix like spaghetti sauce and meatballs with all the other fixings that naturally seem to go together. Like Thanksgiving wise. It's like one of these things is not like

the other. Yeah. So like I got my, like I got, I got like three or four meatballs and I ate my meatballs. Like I didn't put any thought into it. And then Natalie's like, Oh, did you, you didn't, you just got your meatballs. And I'm like, yeah, no, I'm going to try some other stuff. Her brother-in-law fried some turkey. Really amazing. I had tons of turkey. I went and got turkey next.

But at this point, I'm kind of full because I've had my meatballs. Sure. And then I also realized that of my meatballs, another wrinkle is that not a lot of people were eating my meatballs, which is totally fine because they did the opposite of what I did. It's just like, it's Thanksgiving, man. I'm going to eat my turkey.

Yeah, you do the turkey, the cranberries, all that. And they're like, I don't know if I like meatballs, but I don't want to, there's no place for this meatball here. Sure. And I feel like a lot of people just opted not for the meatball. Yeah.

So I end up eating only meatballs and turkey. So Nick is never invited back to Natalie's family's Thanksgiving. And then the next day, there was another gathering because her cousin got engaged. They had this nice little engagement party. And then there was a couple of people in our family

who made some meatball comments to me. More about the fact you brought them or the fact you ate them in place of other stuff? I couldn't really tell. And I go to Natalie, I go, I think there's people making fun of me behind my back about my meatballs in your family. It's like, I think my anxiety is right this time.

And she goes, they are. And I go, why? She's like, cause you only ate your meatballs. And I'm like, well, first of all, not true. Second of all, so what? You know, like, and so my question is, is that, should I have, you know, cause she was like my, my, she's like my, her, her grandma's like the sweetest, it's just a sweet older lady. And she was like, you know, you know, I think, I don't know if her grandma made the stuffing. I don't remember what her made, but she's like, you know, my grandma wanted to know what you thought of the stuffing. I'm like, well, I fucking want to know what grandma thought of my meatballs.

I didn't say that actually, but, but like, you know, I'm the guest I'm new to the, I'm new to the family. So to speak, is there a sense of protocol or obligation that I try everyone's food they brought at the risk, you know, or was it rude of me to primarily eat my meatballs and not try the green bean casserole and the stuffing and the cranberry sauce and the fruit marshmallow salad or I don't know all the stuff that was brought. I feel like it's a little bit like that is high maintenance by definition. In terms of high maintenance, I feel like it's thrown around so much. But I feel like this is a scenario where you're being a little bit high maintenance in the

sense of you're bringing a dish that you make wonderfully, but that is not necessarily an accompaniment to the traditional Thanksgiving dinner. I think it's important to clarify. I was volunteered to make the meatballs. I didn't eat, like, I wasn't like, can I please bring my meatballs? Because it's the only thing I like. Natalie's like, you're making meatballs. I'm like, okay. Well, I feel like, okay, here's the thing. Also, no one ate my meatballs. Because they're not Thanksgiving food.

I didn't, it wasn't my idea. Okay, but you don't have, my two cents would be, you don't need to eat the fruit and the marshmallow thing. Like, there are certain Thanksgiving things, no one expects you to like all of it. I think you should have made a plate with most of it. A bunch of things I don't want to eat. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. I don't think people should be forced to eat things they don't enjoy eating. And you can feel that way in

10 years, but for now, I think it's a symbolism. Yeah. Eat up, Nicholas. But looking back, if you'd maybe thrown two more sides on the turkey plate, so that way you could genuinely say that you love them. Or had sat down originally with the turkey and not just like four meatballs rolling around. Again, I get the optics. That's what we're talking about, though. It's all about optics. It's your first Thanksgiving there. Did Natalie, how, because I think the real question is like, how did Natalie feel about this?

Because I think- She was aware of the fact that i yeah did she feel did do you think it added a consideration for her or like something else for her to have to i i like in no way was she like like uh you know like bridezilla or like you know in a sense and like you meet my family and like no and no way was she like helicopter girlfriend making sure i was doing all the right things to win favor with all her family members. Not at all. But I think there was a level of like,

I know my family is going to notice this. And I don't want them making fun of you for only eating your meatballs. So the solution to this problem would be to me eat stuffing. Yes. Even though I hate stuffing. Because I think also there's a level of, she knows you and obviously loves you, but doesn't want you to give off. And Amanda and I were talking about this too. Like when her family obviously doesn't know you, so you not eating

the meal for you, it's like, well, I'm just not going to eat what I don't want to eat. But like, it could come off as like, I'm too good for this. Like, blah, blah, blah. Like they don't know you to like back up what you did and like, I'm playing the long game though. I am comfortable with them. You should have played the long game by judging me for the, no, I'm comfortable with some like judgment on their part.

Like I believe I I'm confident that I left an overall good impression with the family. I think, and grandma loves me. If I were aware, up front, about the possible thing, I absolutely would have gotten, I would have pretended

to eat the stuffing. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, had I been aware of the optics, about like, oh shit, like, everyone's going to be paying attention to what I eat, which, like, I'm saying? Had I been aware of the optics about oh shit, everyone's going to be paying attention to what I eat, which I'm sorry, that didn't cross

my mind. I really didn't think no one would give a shit. But if I were aware, yes, of course I would have done that. I don't know, curious what people think. I guess maybe I'm the asshole, but I'm an imperfect person.

There's a promise we make to you guys on this show is that we will be our authentic selves and we will make ourselves available to criticism as well. And sometimes our authentic selves are incredibly stubborn. I'm going to go to bat with anyone who shouldn't be forced to eat food they don't like just so they can get grandma's approval find a way to add other value i'll stand by that don't you do not have to eat the stuffing you just don't so our next section is uh with our our friend tinks one of our favorite guests and you guys i know all love that episode and specifically tinks's box theory and then i talk about my movie theory as well. Always a lot of discussions around sex and dating and relationships and how fast we can

have it. I really appreciate, you know, I think in a lot of ways, Tinks approaches dating and relationships the way I do, where we try to take some of the bullshit out of it that we sometimes include in our choices. I don't know if I necessarily agree with 100% of Tink's box theory because I don't know if guys, I think guys know whether they want to have sex with you or not right away, but I think they don't know if they want to date you and they could want to have sex with you and then realize they want to date you. I don't think guys will say, I want to have sex with her and I want to date her. Do you think it makes a bit of difference whether a woman sleeps with a guy either anywhere

between the first date and let's say three to four months into dating? And does that in any way impact whether a guy will like them? Very little. Agreed. So box theory is if you meet a guy in a romantic setting, like as in you meet him in a bar or at a dinner party or you go on a date, he will put you into one of three boxes. He wants to date you, He wants to sleep with you. Or he wants nothing to do with you. Okay?

And people are like, but what about friends? Like, no, I said in a romantic setting. Okay. If a guy wants to date you, there is very little you can do to change his mind. You can sleep with him on the first date. You can get super drunk. You can puke on his shoes. He will find it endearing.

If a guy just wants to sleep with you, you can hold out six months. You can talk about Jesus for your first three dates. He's still not going to want to date you. And if he wants nothing to do with you, sorry, just move on. But I think women get so caught up in, when should I sleep with him? When should I, you know, whatever. It really doesn't matter. And then people say to me, well, Tink's that puts all the power in like the guy's hands. And you're looking at it the wrong way. The point is, it should be totally freeing because you should sleep with him when you feel like sleeping with him. It will not matter. Most of the boyfriends that I've had, I've slept with on first or second

date because it was a vibe and I knew, and I could tell that they wanted to date me. Now, I don't totally know if I buy the guys will know the difference when they see a girl that they're interested in, whether he wants to pretend, whether she's girlfriend material versus I just want to have sex with her. I don't think that men are that sophisticated to know the difference. I'll maybe run my movie theory by you. Okay. You can tell me. I've used this to help explain why it doesn't make a difference. Okay. So men are simple when it comes to sex. So like when you go see a movie, I find that how people feel about a movie is one of three things.

The average most common one is you go see a movie, it's fine. You had a pretty good time. You enjoyed it. You finished it. It's fine. You don't really need to see it again. If you had to see it again, okay. Great. Or you hate a movie.

You barely got through it. Sometimes you just turn it off. You don't even finish. Or you see a movie. Right. You barely got through it. Sometimes you just turn it off. You don't even finish. Or you see a movie. You love the movie. You're obsessed with it. You tell your friends about it. You can't wait to see it again. Anytime it comes on TV, you watch it over and over and over again.

Right? And for men, you're usually one of three of those things. And it really makes no difference how, like, whether you have sex with him on the first night or three months in, you know, he's going to put you in one of those three boxes. And if a guy likes having sex with you, if he loves you, if you're a rewatchable, he's going to want to watch it again. Yeah, I co-sign on this. Right?

And if he's just not into you, it's not going to happen. And if you're just like, oh, if it's like a decent watch, he's just not going to want. That's why. So the difference between night one or three months is that's not going to change the outcome. Completely. All you are is extending the time. You're prolonging it. You're prolonging his decision and the information he's going to get.

Now, women will ask, well, you know, doesn't the emotion connection matter? Like a lot of women say, well, you got to build, that's why you have to build the emotional connection first. Emotional connections are great. However, three, four, five months isn't that much amount of time and no emotional connection you're going to build with a guy is going to be enough to change his mind depending on where he puts you in that box. I agree. If you are someone who he doesn't like having sex with or sex is like, okay, but you have a great personality, he'll make you a friend. Let's be friends.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Now, emotion matters to the extent that I'm losing my train of thought. So, a great emotional connection will not make up for how he likes to have sex, how he feels about having sex with you. Yes, that's correct. But a bad emotional connection or a bad personality absolutely can ruin a great movie, so to speak.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He might be like, I love having sex with you, but I just can't stand you. Yeah, totally. It's not worth it. Totally. And he'll move on. For sure.

So it really makes no difference on whether you have sex the first night or the fourth date. You're just given the information he needs to make a decision and i totally agree with you that doesn't give him all the power it gives you the power to just do whatever you want knowing that like most people when they see a movie it's just okay it's just okay it's okay keeping with the theme of sex well that's that's vibrators, box theory, sex. Steve-O, you know, when we book Steve-O, I didn't, you know, certainly a legend in the reality TV community, thoughtful guy, huge fan base.

He primarily has a male audience. And so when we bring on guests who primarily have a male audience, we don't always know how that resonates with this audience. But you guys loved it. Steve-O was a male audience. We don't always know how that resonates with this audience, but you guys loved it. Steve-O was a fascinating guest. We loved the part where he talked about the sex dynamic with his girlfriend and responsible dating and thought that was a really thoughtful section,

so we wanted to remind our audience of what Steve-O had to say about responsible dating and sex in his relationships did you ask her out she slid into my dm yeah oh that's my love story i love that she slid into my dm because uh on the set she was wearing uh a ring on her uh her wedding finger but as it turned out it was a don't fuck with me ring like uh leave me alone ring interesting so i just figured that you know she was off moments but then she slid into the dm and i was like right on so we we went the healthy dating route she was like just in case you were wondering i'm i am available i was just it was the other assholes i didn't want to talk to right i suppose I suppose so. Yeah.

So, so we did responsible dating like once a week for like a month before we, we made out and stuff. What do you mean by responsible dating? Well, like I have just an addictive personality, so I've run into problems with just about everything that, that is comforting or pleasurable you know drugs and alcohol sex sugar spending um and uh the sex was something that i really had to address and um

you know unlike drugs and alcohol which we just cut out you know you just cut it out and you're better off without it like there's nothing you can do about the fact that you're a sexual being. And with food, you have to eat. So that is a more tricky thing where you've got to learn moderation and a new healthy approach to sex. approach to sex and a healthy approach to sex is is really pretty uh it's it's definable for each person you know you make a dating plan and the dating plan is a camera you know you're not gonna just go crazy right away you're gonna see them once a week and not more you know you're gonna like have so many dates before you try and kiss or anything like that. Like we were responsible in that regard.

Another polarizing conversation we had in this was with our wonderful guest, Olivia O'Brien. And she talked about, it was our most viewed Tik TOK. And she talked about power dynamics in relationship. Olivia mentioned whoever was say hosting the sleepovers had more power in the relationship. I thought that was a really interesting thing and made me think i feel like i i whoever has the power in the relationship is the person that like you go to their house that's what i realized like i had all the power in that relationship and i never went to his house he always came to me but it

was like he knew his place like he would sit in his power in the relationship like whoever's house you are consistently going to they have all the power it's interesting i've never thought about that it's it's been at least always true for me it's also like really insightful i don't a lot of people i talk about power a lot in relationships but it's one thing people don't talk about or honest with because even any even healthy relationships there's power always exists and it's a kind of a something we struggle with early on and even when you're in a healthy relationship the power can change a little bit like you can you almost sometimes feel it especially the worst part is when you feel like you have the power and then one day you wake up and you feel a little less powerful and even

maybe that's okay but it's interesting you say that i think you're probably right yeah the whoever whoever has the power it's that their house is it because they're lazy no i don't it also like there are definitely instances where it's like okay if one person has like five roommates and one person lives alone you're obviously going to go to that person's house but like i just think about consistently how it's been with me like the guys that i really, really liked that didn't want to date me. Like I would always go to their house. They never came over. So when you thought about that, is that something you thought about after the relationship was over and you kind of reflected on it? Or were you aware of

that power dynamic when you were dating them? Um, I think it's just something over the years, I've just come to realize, I mean, my friends have talked about it because like we all kind of have the same types of relationships and like the same kind of asshole guys. And so it's just kind of been the same patterns over and over again. And we kind of noticed like, oh, well you, that happens with you. And this happens with me. That's crazy. This happened with him and him and him. Our next clip is from our, uh, one of our favorite guests, Andy Grammer, the very successful musician and just really charming guy. He's as uplifting in person as you would imagine, as his songs are. And Andy talked about he's a parent and being a father and a good father is important to him. And we loved how he is going about trying to be the best dad possible by asking the people around them what they like and they dislike about their parents. And I thought that

was a really fascinating tool and something I envision myself doing if I'm lucky enough to become a father. So let's go ahead and play the tape of Andy Grammer. Pick like 10 women that I really, really respect and love and go like, hey, can you tell me one thing your dad did incredible and one thing that he could have done better? And it's like such an awesome, interesting thing to get emails back of like, this is what my dad did that was like really, really special. And this is what he did that was not super cool. And I think like research like that.

And I ask, I like to ask strangers. i like to ask strangers i like to ask the barista i'll ask you right now what's one thing your dad did that was incredible and one thing he could have done a little better i was co-hosting today's show with jenna bush and i asked her this question and she said something like really sweet about and then realized that she had to say something bad about like a president she's like ah he's a bad dancer that's tough on air but i love that i was just thinking about you know i get asked a lot about advice and what's it advice that i would give young men is to you know value their platonic relationships with women and ask a lot of questions uh of those women and if it's and if you don't

have a ton of like even your girlfriends i mean met like stop stop learning from your bros if you were to ask your women friends about their experiences yeah every single woman that i know has an experience with a man that and probably many more than one that's either made them uncomfortable or unsafe or or or more and just asking those questions and finding out and and maybe that that experience came from miscommunication or misunderstanding and i think young men need to like sit down if they if you have a woman friend just be like what's it like for you what do you like what do you dislike and and we're i don't for whatever reason we don't we don't do that enough as young men and yeah and i'll go further you know it's i found a lot of parallels doing some work on myself around

just like context like i i consider myself someone who has pretty good context but around um you know when george floyd happened i'm like oh not as much as i thought holy crap like uh-oh and similarly with uh with with the equality of men and women sometimes we just need to listen a lot more i was out on tour and i brought all of my uh female like crew members and backup singers and anybody that was in the band that was female and i'm like anything i can do differently specifically for women this is like my eighth year touring yeah why is it taking me so long to ask this question like what can we do and the answers were yes actually this dude touches us too much super fucking creepy could you get on that like not not like like not like like uh just like a little too long on the back sure or. Or, you know, I don't have to explain this.

Women super know this. Or they go like, you know, if you could put lids on the trash cans, because we're all living in a bus and sometimes there's like products that need to go and it would be cool if there's lids. Things that I have no idea about would have never thought, but also for some reason, eight years in have never just like made it a thing to make sure that you ask. Also, for some reason, eight years in have never just like made it a thing to make sure that you ask. So being open to get to being off on context, I think for men is really important.

Really, really important to just be like, I need to listen a lot more than I'm listening right now. Yeah. I thought this would be kind of a fun time to also kind of look introspectively on uh you know how we do interviews or conduct interviews and there were two episodes that i thought played a lot of roles whether i think our audience realized or not on on how uh on discussions we had going forward or how we conducted interviews and that was the katie interview and the nikki glazer interview uh the most recent nikki glazer now for all we'll start with the nikki one you guys know i love nikki she's a dear friend of mine i love her vulnerability to her honesty she's hilarious but that particular episode nikki triggered a lot of you uh i remember interviewing her being like what the fuck is nikki talking about and at the time i was just kind of listening. I do wish I would have

almost in a way, cause I think Nikki's really smart and has a really good approach on life. And sometimes I know when I'm like doing an interview, I can kind of get going and worked up. And sometimes it's the job of the interviewer to check in a little bit more and say, Hey, this is how I'm hearing you. Is this what you mean? And that will give the job of the interviewer to check in a little bit more and say, Hey, this is how I'm hearing you. Is this what you mean? And that will give the opportunity for the person, the interviewee to maybe reframe what they're saying. And I don't, Nick, Nikki doesn't really give a shit. And I mean that in a positive way. She's a comedian. She does such a great job of like moving on from criticism and just moving forward and not looking in the past. But so I don't think Nikki overall cares, but I think as an interviewer, it, it

reminded me that I need to do a better job of, you know, challenging my guests, especially if there's a rapport there with like a friend. Another one that comes to mind is the Katie episode. Like I mentioned when specifically when she was talking about Thomas, you have heard me bring up that point of the interview many times since we've had it with Katie. Sometimes this ingest or sometimes because that moment really bugged me when it happened. And I remember at the time thinking, boy, she's really harsh on Thomas, but maybe she knows Thomas more than me. But is what she's saying, like, is it responsible for her to say now good on Katie? It seems like she, I even as recently as not too long ago, I think she mentioned how

she has reached out to Becca and Thomas and kind of maybe apologize for being as harsh and kind of saying some of the things that she said. But again, with the Nikki thing, I wonder if me challenging her a little bit more in the moment would have softened her stance we'll never know because I didn't um and so I'm gonna play both of these clips from these interviews of times where I wish I would have maybe pushed back a little bit more also I learned what a pick me girl was uh from the Nikki episode. I've never heard that phrase, a pick-me girl, because after we aired the Nikki episode, a lot of people were calling Nikki Glaser,

they're calling her out for acting like a pick-me girl. So I learned something new and something I've been more in tuned of ever since. So anyway, sometimes the things that trigger people the most and whether we agree with everything our guests say will drive the best conversations going forward. I think that's what makes this show what it is and how I like to bring things to my audience because as long as we can listen, adapt and move forward, it always drives further conversations and keeps things interesting.

So here are these clips. Hope you enjoy. I don't mind if my boyfriend like gets a blowjob from a random girl. If I, if he's on location somewhere or if he's like on a bachelor party and there's some girl at a bar who thinks he's super hot and she's just some floozy in Austin at a bar and he doesn't live in Austin. I don't care if you get a blowjob. That sounds fun. Tell me about it later. I hope she's so hot. I hope she's like your boyfriend. Yeah. My boyfriend or my husband. Does he have to let you know first? I mean, no, before we go on the trip, I'll go, listen, you want to do something this weekend. That's fine. Don't give me any disease. Be safe about it. But like, if you want to get your dick

Is this new Nikki? No, this is, this has been Nikki for years and years. And I've, and no one believes me about this. It's, I don't know what's wrong with me. I don't think there i don't think there's anything and men don't even like it i'm not trying to be like a cool girl to get a guy i'm telling you no men even want this but i get really turned on when my boyfriend someone i feel very secure with and in love with like when a girl wants to blow him or something i don't necessarily want him to have sex with another girl because a girl will get attached but i like it because I'm like, oh, my boyfriend's attractive. He's like definitely like girls want him.

And guess what? I have never once in my life heard of a guy getting a blow job in a bar from some girl he met at the bar who's just like kind of drunk and like, I want to blow someone that knows he has a girlfriend. I don't want to deceive this girl

into thinking she's going to get in a relationship. But it's like a bachelor party. He's at a bar in Austin. A girl is all over him. She's super hot. He's texting me how hot this girl is. Get a blowjob. Because I've never once heard a guy getting a blowjob

and being like, I need to marry you and leave my girlfriend. That's never happened. He's just going to get a blowjob and go. So you're just allowing him to leave? What do you mean? Leave. Well, I mean, I don't think you're crazy.

I think this is an interesting conversation. I i don't think you're crazy i think this is an interesting conversation i just don't think what about making making out that's fine too but making out's kind of intimate i would rather like he either like you'd rather blow job a hand job or like finger her or like do or make finger her yeah make her come yeah i would love that because usually the guys i'm dating are really good at fucking and i want to like, oh my God, I'm so glad that girl like had it. Like one time my ex-boyfriend hooked up with this girl. Very pretty woman. And she was like, so she like came a lot or what?

Like I forget, he like fingered or something and she was just like, he told me later on, she was just like kind of, she was like dizzy. She was like, what the fuck was that? And I was like, yes, I love that. Like you made a girl feel that good and like, whoa, that could be done. That's nice to know. Yeah. And it's like, it just it's and it's hot to me you're not and but like i i think this can all work right but it has like i feel like you have to like have really good communication yeah so not no sex no obviously penis and vagina sex nothing that but like are you but like so your your guy your boyfriend and i don't boyfriend goes to a bachelor party. Yeah.

Are you like asking questions or you just trust him that he. No, I'll ask questions when we start hooking up when he gets back. Like when this happened with my boyfriend, my ex-boyfriend, so he went on a bachelor party in Austin and before he left, he was like, listen, I know we've talked about this before. Cause I've always been like, oh my God. Like we, when we were together, we were never apart. Like we were working on a show together.

We lived together. There was no chance for him to like have a flirtation with a girl, you know, like, when we were together, we were never apart. Like, we were working on a show together. We lived together. There was no chance for him to, like, have a flirtation with a girl, you know, like, even though that's something I would have been into, and we used to talk about it all the time in bed. Like, our foreplay used to be me being like, tell me about the time you hooked up with a girl, like, all of his before stories, before we hooked up. And I was like, oh, my God, so horny for, like, just him telling me, like, being intimate with other girls. It didn't make me jealous. It made me like, oh, my God, like, my god like oh my god like so turned on by him so then when he was going on this trip he was like hey I know we've talked about it before but like I don't have a lot of opportunities I don't like

drink I don't go to bars we're gonna go to bars if there was if something were to happen with another girl it would be this weekend and I was like okay like I think I can handle it I was like no sex but like use your discretion and just tell me about it when you get back. And so like, he went on the trip, we texted like normal. And, and this is just for me, this isn't for, this is the way we worked it out. And then we met up after that and we were meeting in San Francisco and we both knew he was coming off this trip. And I was like, I wonder if he's done anything.

But we had the whole day with our friends, just like going to lunch and like talking about the trip. And then the second we got back to the hotel, we startedoking up and then he then he's like do you want to hear what happened I'm like fuck yes I do I've been waiting all day and then that's when he told me and it was so it was like our foreplay and then it was so hot and then we just like had the best sex ever because it was about what did you feel him I felt um I just felt like oh my gosh my boyfriend is like attractive to other women. Like I get, I'm so excited.

I get to have this, this man loves me that other women want, but they, but he's mine. There wasn't any jealousy? No, none. Want or think it's a bad idea for Thomas to show up on Paradise? Oh, I am nervous for any woman who interacts with Thomas, honestly. Okay. He's a, he interacts with Thomas, honestly. Okay. He's a smooth talker. Wow.

And I wouldn't be surprised if he like recycles some lines with me on some of these women. Well, I can assure you if he does, we will all find out. Do you think there's any chance that the guy's perception or your perception of Thomas could be that world? Or there's something about Thomas that you just be warned oh look if I wanted to keep Thomas I would have my connection with him was I think more sexual than like uh mental emotional he said all the right things but I like I already and I wish they showed it I questioned it very early on it's like no one's this perfect you know and so like my intuition was like i don't know about this guy and the second tray said what he said i was like boom i've been thinking about this for weeks okay but but paradise you're open to him maybe changing your mind and learning or no

no if he's on paradise no belief in i don't care who he's with i'm gonna be like watch out girl okay okay you heard it here i don't know if you heard it here first, but maybe you heard it here first. Up next, we're going to be getting into some of our most notable and favorite Ask Nick's throughout the year. Can't thank enough of all you listeners and all your questions you guys sent in. You guys know how much I love doing the Ask Knicks and appreciate you guys you know giving me an opportunity to be

someone in this space it's a lot of fun we all learn a lot about relationships and ourselves and we hope to continue to bring you more of these questions and we pulled a handful of some of our favorite Ask Nick's and

we'll be playing clips from each of these, you know, some of the biggest takeaways. Again, my goal for all these Ask Nick's is to help all of us empower ourselves to just be more honest about our situation. So here's a list of our kind of favorite Ask Nick's and some of the callers that drove a lot of the conversations in all our episodes. So enjoy. Don't forget, if you want to be on Ask Nick, we always need some more questions and conversations. Even if it's just a fight you've had with your significant other. Those are the most relatable ones that we can learn from. So email all your questions at AskNick at CastMe.com.

Cast with a K. We'd love to have you on your boyfriend is not interested in being a boyfriend he is interested in having a girlfriend and there's a big difference i do get that yeah you know he's fine if you want to like be quiet and be there but he is not interested which is up you know i'm sure like yeah i'm sure he's not a total piece of shit right i'm sure once in a while he steps up but clearly the normal situation is him doing what he wants when he wants prioritizing his friends and his work and his video games and when it comes, if you were to make a list, how you feel in terms of what he had, like what he prioritizes in his life, where do you think you fall? Are you even in the top five?

I would hope I was in the top five, but I do often feel like his own agenda does come before me a lot of the time. Yeah. You would hope, but like deep down, probably not. Yeah. So the time yeah you would hope but like deep down probably not yeah so the tough you have to come to a realization that you can survive without him and that he might not be your guy and that you whether it's him or someone else like minimum want someone who wants to be your boyfriend he doesn't want to be your boyfriend he's just willing to have you call you his girlfriend he's willing to have you call yourself his girlfriend that's it yeah he's willing to let you call with that he's willing to let you call himself his girlfriend he is not interested in being your boyfriend he's not even interested in being a boyfriend so you have to decide

sense especially with our history with everything and how he was so not ready to not be selfish, I guess. So do you want a boyfriend who wants to be your boyfriend, whoever that boyfriend is, or do you just want to be someone's girlfriend? Right. I mean, of course, I want someone to want to be a boyfriend, be my boyfriend. Well, you have 100% power in that. You just might not have total control on who that is and but you have to you you have total control who that is for anyone who fits that qualification like you can't make everyone ready and able or wanting to be your boyfriend

and like i said like sometimes like when we do spend quality time because it's not like we never do it's not like he doesn't pay attention to me and i just sit there in the corner and be quiet and when we do it's great and i'm like and i feel like we're both having a good time and he's in a good mood and i'm in a good mood and i'm like why wouldn't you want that your expectations are so low right now that's not to hear but that makes sense yeah listen we've all been there no you know i've been there you'll you'll you'll maybe someday be on the other side of things you know you know i say like how do you figure out whether you should stay in a relationship or leave and people like make a list of things you like and don't like and yeah sure you can do that but have her you know ask her to you know you could be literally say, you should make a list of things that you're grateful for to have him in your life. Things that, you know, and, and things

that you're hopeful for, and she should make a list of like, I hope he starts doing this. I hope he does that. I hope he does. And things that, what is he grateful for? I'm grateful that he is, you know, wears t-shirts on Tuesdays or, you know, I don't know, or grateful that he, you know, and maybe there's things that you're not aware of. Like maybe she'lls or, you know, I don't know, or grateful that he, you know, and maybe there's things that you're not aware of. Maybe she'll be like, you know, every, you know, he always 45 minutes of the day, he spends time with our daughter and he makes her so happy. And I am grateful for that. And that might be a real thing. I don't know, but she should make that list because the things that you're grateful for are the things that will be harder to find with anyone else. You know, those are the things. And when you're grateful for are the things that will be harder to find with anyone else.

You know, those are the things. And when you're grateful for something, you really appreciate it and you value that. And that's a thing that you will have to give up if you move on. And just because you are grateful for things, some things doesn't mean you should stay in a relationship. It just depends on what those things are. But the things that you're hopeful for is a recognition of things you're not getting. You don't have them. And hope, while a great thing, isn't necessarily to have a lot of in a relationship because hope is predicated in this idea that you don't know something. Well, I hope this happens and I'm hopeful because I don't have all the information, right? I have a little bit of information. What I'm hopeful for is that the information I don't have is the thing I'll realize that I'll get and this might happen.

I'm hopeful. Like who knows? Who knows what the future could hold? But in relationships, we have a lot more information than we don't have information. And in fact, she has 10 years of information about this guy. It's one of those things where, is it nice to have my partner do nice things for me? Of course. It's nice to feel appreciated. But I can cook. I can clean, I can do things on my own. What I can't control and what I can't do is have someone I'm in a relationship with scream at me, be toxic to me, put me down, ridicule me, swear at me. You know what I'm saying? Those are things I can't have. Those are the non-negotiables that I can't be in a

relationship with. i like that i have a partner who thinks of me from time to time and makes me feel like she appreciates me and that i'm not saying it's not important but like i can do a lot of things on my own right and if i'm single i can take care of myself when i'm single i don't have people screaming at me and tell me how stupid i am or how how useless i can be and i can't why can't you get that like how hard is it to like do this you know like just belittle and berate and partners do that so like yeah if he's still doing that like all the like oh hi you know doesn't mean anything or like cooking for you is like, it's a nice, but like, that's not what you need to be happy, you know? Yeah. And I guess I maybe thought I needed those

things to be happy because when we initially are separated and I brought those things up, um, he immediately started doing them. It's like, yeah, like those nice acts are good, but like you said, they don negate correct the shitty things you are doing and that's the big issue those other things are nice things and again you can show appreciation you don't want to make them think it's not doing anything but like you know thank you but once you do x y and z you know it's the classic case of it doesn't matter how good we are when we're good it's how bad we are when we're bad what point do i just say like enough is enough you know and and how do you know that you're actually not the toxic one you know like he says i'm too needy and i need too much

and i need too much attention and like maybe that's true like i have a like an anxious attachment style where i'm like and you think this is why because you want to hang out with the person you're trying to date yeah that's like in his mind what he taught it's easy to convince me it's easy to convince me that's me and my fault my problem you know and i'm just too much i just need too much yeah i mean clearly obviously he's gaslighting you right and so you know gaslighting works and and well i can't control him and he's not on this call but i can tell you what you did wrong you had 10 years of history with him and information that's 10 years of actions against any words that he said.

And you chose to believe his words over 10 years of actions. And I get it. You're going through a divorce. Divorce sucks. You're feeling alone, fear, you know. So it's nice to have a comforting person in your life, especially that within those 10 years of information you had, there's certainly plenty of good moments at him being there for you.

So it served a need for you. And so out of convenience or fear or boredom or whatever it is, you chose to allow him in your life, knowing and ignoring the 10 years of information you had. And then, you know, you were just hesitant enough that, you know, you offered him this challenge of convincing you he had changed and whatever. You want to believe in him and you didn't necessarily do anything wrong. And eventually, you stopped listening to your gut more and more. And then you said this one word, which is your problem, is that you said, now I'm invested, right? You didn't say, now I'm in love. You said, now I'm invested. And now you're trying to get a return on your investment i like need to know if i'm doing something wrong if it was wrong for me

to use those terms like when is it right to use those terms because it feels like we're in like this society that everyone's trying to label everything and you're right i i don't specific situation we were all doing a decent job of standing up for ourselves before we ever watched the play gaslighting you know what i'm saying like and you could just say that wasn't cool or i didn't like that you said that and i feel like you're manipulating me and and we didn't need to like call it gaslighting and again like i'm not an expert in gaslighting you know what i'm saying i'm not a therapist and you know when we had dr sellman come explain it to me and she like again referenced the play we learned that it's not even the diagnosis manual you don't go to therapy and they they're not diagnosing you as a gaslighter

you know what i'm saying like it's and so we're so like i just don't know why you're so what's clear and what should be comforting to you is that he is toxic and you shouldn't be investing any more time in him and that's such a great answer to find and do you need it like what what and did you like i don't know whatever and you could say like listen i whatever i maybe you weren't i don't know i'm not an expert in gaslighting either way i don't like how you made me feel about myself i don't like how i felt around you i didn't you know feel like i was by myself and either way i just think it's best we don't talk anymore i wish you the best of luck i hope you're a great partner to the people you date in the future. I'm going to work on myself. You know, like, why can't you just say something like that?

I feel like, okay, so if I did, like, do something wrong by telling him, like, he gaslighted me and emotionally manipulated me. And he basically said what you're saying. I'm sure he emotionally manipulated you at some point. I'm sure. So do I have to take accountability for the fact that i was wrong to use those terms like do i have to do that i i do you i don't know what do you think i just don't again i'm not like i i wasn't there you know what i'm saying and i i i i don't know it just seems like wait he said all those things what do you mean like he said all those things like we're not right for each other he was he was just like oh like rather than using these

terms you could have easily told me like this is what upset you and i would have worked on it and i told him that he didn't create an environment for me to be able to to feel comfortable for me to do that that's a great that's that's great say that. That was awesome that you said that. Yeah. And again, what you two, I mean, maybe he's stubborn too. We've established that you're stubborn. I haven't talked to him, but like what you, what you guys haven't agreed on is that it's just, you should just stop trying to make this work. You know, you don't see eye to eye. You guys don't have,

you can agree to disagree. Gaslighting. Well, you guys have heard me talk about this. You've, our last two clips or conversations around gaslighting and its role, its playing in relationships these days. Is it helpful? Is it hurtful? Do we need to name gaslighting to still enforce boundaries and have boundaries in relationships. Now you guys certainly know how I feel about that, but it brings us back to when this all kind of kicked off. Bachelor Nation, it's most of the time, hopefully a silly reality TV show that we can watch and enjoy and turn the struggles of our daily life off. But every once in a while, it brings a very relatable dating topic. And Katie's season of The Bachelorette certainly was a big moment for us. A lot of conversations around gaslighting,

it kicked off with our recap with Wells when Wells and I were sitting there debating whether we saw Greg's point of view or whether we didn't see Greg's point of view. And it was interesting because you guys know we're lucky enough for most of the time getting the screeners and so we'll record our episodes prior to.

Only to find out that a lot of conversations came up around this after the fact. Like when Wells and I were recapping it, we didn't even think about the word gaslighting. It was, we were looking at this through the lens of the reality TV. So yeah, our recap with Wells really kicked off this whole kind of gaslighting discussion.

So we're gonna play some clips from the recap and then into discussions with Dr. Solomon and Dr. Diane. And I hope it's a nice refresher on all things gaslighting and love bombing and these kind of terms we have now adapted into our normal day-to-day talking about relationships. Greg was mad. Greg was hurt. Greg was angry. Now we can debate whether it was justified, but yes, it was very unconventional relative to what we're used to seeing on The Bachelorette when a guy is leaving on his own. Yeah, I think it's a tale of two Gregs though. And I think that what the audience is going to be upset with isn't the first conversation that they have after the hometown

and in the dark and at the car it's the um execution the second day when he goes and you know breaks up with her and it does seem and here's the problem and i was talking on another podcast about this here's the problem the problem that we as the audience have is that we don't have the luxury of experiencing what was said and done in real time. So much of what happens is left on the cutting room floor, a la every time I go on the show, I'm completely chopped out of it, which is fine.

But I wonder, because that breakup scene seems so abrupt and it's so fast that it's like, what? That was weird. It was probably an hour long. It was probably really, really long. It probably went on forever. It was probably, honestly, it was probably boring for the camera guys. I felt bad for them. And Katie's response is surface level. And again, I wouldn't have reacted that way. But you know what I'm saying? I wouldn't have reacted that way but you know what i'm saying i i wouldn't have done what greg did but i'm just trying to empathize and put myself in greg's shoes to understand like what his logic was and then katie once again for like the fourth time

this season is just like you don't seem happy and i'm just like he just talked about his father and he's crying i'm just like what well fuck like she she's he yeah it didn't add up i didn't understand katie's response like at all and while i wouldn't have handled myself like greg i can get why he's just like i can't fucking do like i felt like greg was just like i't, I'm so fragile right now and so vulnerable that I can't get down on one knee and propose and not know it's me. And I know he signed up for the bachelorette, but that's, I'm just saying that's, that's to me how it flipped. And I understand why. And when they first meet, Greg approaches and he says, I'm so nervous. And she said, and I grabbed his face and I said, Greg, it's going to be okay. So their first experience of

each other was he was unsettled and she affirmed him. She reassured him. She offered comfort and care. And that was like sort of their original relational dance. And I bet it felt really good to Greg. And it might've felt really good to Greg and it might've felt really good to Katie that she, you know, has the power to make somebody feel good and calm. And so then it may, it means that then the miss hurt all that much because in Greg's mind, but you're the one who, when I'm scared, you hold my face and you tell me I'm going to be okay. Yeah. I wonder if part of what's been so painful for viewers and part of like viewers, like sort of the collective triggeredness that you've been been feeling and seeing in terms of like how viewers then to watch Greg get angry and shut down and retreat, then if it just feels like it hurts the viewers that much more, it feels disappointing

that much more because that wasn't who Greg had been. He had been in there from the beginning and, you know, and sort of like liked and people were seeing the possibility of then it maybe just like felt all that much more abrupt or confusing. Like how could this, the Greg we've known all season, how could that Greg be acting like this? Do you think that's part of it? In terms of like how the audience is responding? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The like level of upset, the level of.

Well, you know, interesting enough, you asked that, but like, cause Greg, you know, right before this this episode like a kind of a you know criticism greg was getting is like almost like a joke was he's just he doesn't show a lot of emotion kind of a low energy right so he didn't emote all that unless there was rain you know he didn't really show a lot of emotion and then you saw a lot of emotion all at once or what the appearance of it and i think certainly that kind of comes across as startling to the audience. I guess I can't really speak for everyone's point of view, but I can see how that can play into like a triggering response of the turn, you know? And again, we just don't have like, we're just at the mercy of the show and we don't

know how, you know, I'm very reluctant to critique how abrupt things seem for both katie and greg because there's no sense of time as we watch it you know they could have been sitting there awkwardly for 20 minutes uh we don't know there's clearly were things that are said that we don't have the luxury of hearing we don't know what that is and how relevant it is yeah but that's certainly that certainly did happen we have to look at this in the pattern of the relationship right if he's doing this all the time and so there's gradations what i want to say if you see one person having they're a great person otherwise treating you really well and then one time they're preoccupied with their friends and they don't treat you well.

But then they repair it. So here's to Dylan's point. He does come and say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And then she says, there's nothing else for me to do here. And then they kind of move on and we see their love story going on. But we know that this was the beginning of the crack, as she called it. Right. There's chapters in this short film, and that was the first crack.

And I do believe that it was at that point, too, that Dylan got flooded by Sadie, like, oh, shit, he says it, oh, shit, now this, that I'm held hostage. So, he said a couple things. First, the trivializing part, I'm not making you feel that way, you're feeling that way. That was triggering for people to watch. And then he said, now you're holding me hostage. And he was calling her selfish. Versus, and now Sadie's not without fault here. She was also emotional and yes, could have done a better job. But basically, she said, you treated me differently. So, to me, there's an emotional imbalance here that she's saying you treated me differently. And he's going off saying you're selfish and you're emotional. And how dare you kind of do this to me, hold me hostage. So, that felt like a higher weight. What do you mean?

a higher weight. What do you mean? Meaning that if we're comparing the two, she's clearly emotional, but also she's clearly more invested. I mean, as it plays out, right, we see that Sadie, there's an emotional imbalance because she's fallen for him harder than he's fallen for her. Well, thanks for listening, guys. As always, can't thank you guys enough for giving us a listen this year, whether it was every episode or a handful of episodes. You guys know how much this show means to me and how you being listeners of the show means. Thanks for the people who have stopped me in public and mentioned they listen to the

podcast. It means a lot. I mentioned they listen to the podcast. It means a lot. We are hoping for big things next year and you'll get more vulnerability from myself, our guests, more relevant pop culture conversations and topics. But either way, I hope you guys have a lot of fun listening

and we all learn together. Don't forget to send in those questions. Ask Nick at castmedia.com, cast with a K. Don't forget to check out our merch Ask Nick at castmedia.com cast with a K. Don't forget to check out our merch, our introverted merch is out there and some other merch

we've always had at vilefiles.com. I don't know if there's anything else, but have a very happy new year. It's just one night. Don't worry about it

if it doesn't go your way. Doesn't matter if you're single tonight. Don't get herpes on New Year's Eve. You know what I'm saying? Don't get mouth herpes on New Year's Eve. It know what I'm saying? Don't get mouth herpes on New Year's Eve.

It's fine. Just move on. See you next year.