The Viall Files - E367 Bachelor Recap With Cathy Kelley

Episode Date: January 11, 2022

We are back with another recap of The Bachelor as we dive into the world of Clayton’s season. Today, we are joined by journalist, television host, model, and actress, Cathy Kelley as we break down the crazy moments and hot messes of episode two. On this recap we dive into talking about who pulled aside Hilary Duff, Nick’s hot take about Teddi, and what manipulation is in a relationship. We also talk about how there are clearly love roses and drama roses, how a FWB situation back home may ruin a contestant’s chance, the intentions of certain contestants, and how someone should go on The Bachelor purely for spite. We also discuss the ADHD situation and how disclosing information about someone else can be harmful. “I think there are plenty of hot messes in this cast.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Chime: Get started at http://www.Chime.com/Viall  Relish: Go to http://www.HelloRelish.com/Viall to receive 50% off today! Babbel: Right now when you purchase a three month subscription at http://www.Babbel.com and using promo code VIALL, you get an additional three months for free!   Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @cathykelley See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the vile files bachelor recap edition and do we have a lot to discuss? Joining me is the one, the only returning guest. I don't know how many times it's been. I know. She's become a regular. Too many. Fan favorite of the Vile Files, Kathy Kelly. Hello again. Every time I say Kathy Kelly, I'm just like, my dyslexia, it's just like, don't say Kelly Kathy. Kelly Kathy. Kathy Kelly. I'm just like, my dyslexia, it's just like, don't say Kelly Kathy. Welcome back, Kathy. It's so nice to have you.

Thank you. It's great to be back. Excited about the season. As always, well, not always, but hopefully. Allie and Amanda are with us as well. Our social media team and my trusty assistants. Ladies, how are you? I'm good. Doing very well. And on the topic of social media, the Vile Files Instagram has always been your one-stop shop for all things dating, relationship advice, podcast updates. Pitching, Amanda. Pitching. And now, what do you mean? What do you want me to do more of? It's a great plug.

What do you want me to do more of? No, you're doing great. I need notes. You're doing great. Have you ever, it's okay. It's POV. It's episode two of The Bachelor. You started to recognize some of the names.

We know who NC is. We know who Sarah is. But a lot of them are just a blonde tangle. Now, I don't know who either of those people are. I know who Cassidy is. Speaking of, while we're getting into it, can we print off the ABC pictures? Yeah, I can print off the screenshots that will be on the Instagram.

Anyway, I'm sorry. Amanda, please continue with your pitch. I apologize. Okay. So now as you listen to the Vile Files Bachelor Recap, you can navigate to our Instagram, Vile Files, and swipe through. There will be an infographic with every single woman,

her name, her age, what she does, her hometown. And these will be recent photos, not the staged stuff you see on ABC.com. This is exclusive screenshot content. It's a second screen experience. Are we taking from their Instagrams? We are taking from the episodes themselves. Okay.

All right. Because people can look different on Instagram. We learned. Kitten fishing. Yeah. All right. Well, I know we do because you gave me a list, a pamphlet, Allie,

but shall we cover the... Get into some tea. Bachelor tea of the week. Bachelor tea of the... Do we need a jingle for bachelor tea of the week? Has Bachelor Nation been popping like this in I don't know how long?

Like, I feel like there's news every single day. I think it's a combination of they're just pumping out seasons. This is the new norm. Social media being what it is. TikTok taking off. It used to not be the new norm

to have contestants that were eliminated very early on end up with their... I mean, that's a... I feel like a Peter Weber phenomenon. And then ever since then there you go kathy i think is are you referring to claire and i mean yeah multiple katie as well no it's a thing yeah this uh let's go back to like week two i don't know tatty daddy we're

referring to claire and blake how do you pronounce his last name? Monar, I just know him as Taddy Daddy from Bachelor in Paradise I mean I don't know they like hung out with his niece and nephew they had a whole swipey swipe of all their memories on one just kind of like

kind, uncontroversial side I just want to say hey if they're happy, I'm happy. On the other side, like, I mean, clearly this isn't an accident. You know what I'm saying? There are so many people in the world. There are so many people in Nashville.

Doesn't this guy live in Nashville? I have no idea where he lives. I know that he's a hairstylist and that was the- He's a hairstylist. He's a hairstylist. He does have good hair. People were saying, are they dating or are they coming out with a hair product? And that was the question. I mean, listen, clearly, people in Bachelor Nation, when they date or hang out,

they elicit rumors and speculation. They get in the news. we talk about them on podcast so there's always the question is this authentic you know and then in bachelor nation there's a little bit of it's authentic but like also it's not a coincidence type of thing like i don't doubt that they probably even like each other or hanging out but come on i mean i i get that there's you know plenty of single human beings out there that she could date from um but it's also dating is hard nowadays like you you lucked out i feel like but it's it's very difficult to meet new people especially during a pandemic um and and that's just her

dating pool you know sure like it's similar to i feel like going to a very big college and there is the relatability factor although this blake guy was barely on claire season and had a cup of coffee on paradise although like and and quite frankly when was on, he had an unceremonious exit on Paradise. And then my lasting impression of this Blake guy was after his exit on Paradise,, like pumping, doing curls. Yeah. And saying something to the effect of like, when you don't like simp or something. Yeah. Something like that. Because Tia like wanted more and he was like, no.

Yeah. It reeked of toxic masculinity. And bitter masculinity. Yeah. It's just like, okay. All right. All right, buddy. But hey. But hey.

But hey. I wish them nothing but the best. I'm going to go ahead and guess at some point we'll be talking about the breakup. And... If it gets off the ground, who knows? Well, you think it's off the ground? Claire has a habit of falling hard and fast. Okay.

As we know with Dale. So I suspect if they are in fact dating, there will be a level of intensity. It'll kind of run its course and then it will be loud in its exit be it'll be loud in its exit got it as well is my guess okay who knows but uh hope i'm wrong wish them nothing but the best kickoff 2022 with a better checking account with no monthly fees i'm talking about chime an award winning app and debit card with no overdraft fees, foreign transfer fees, monthly fees, or service fees with

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Speaking of exits, Marissa and Riley, they've been dropping some clues online yeah they're no longer together i uh i suspect we will hear more i i i think it's a very unfortunate and sad circumstance and uh i hope everyone's okay agreed not to sound cryptic but great it's uh unfortunate um nate joe and rodney had a boys weekend in Austin. Seemed to have a great time. Michelle herself went out in Minneapolis. The only thing, I just saw Nate wearing sunglasses inside of a bar, which is really my only criticism.

If you're 6'7", why are you wearing sunglasses inside of a bar coming off a reality TV? You're just asking for it. I like to think it's beneath Nate. It's cool to see Joe and Rodney, three of Michelle's final four. And that's pretty typical. We had the pleasure of interviewing Brandon. He clearly had these feelings that we now have learned. I don't know if Rodney and Joe really had, which is pretty typical.

And they're all hanging out and having fun. And people are allowed to hang out and have fun. Just stop wearing sunglasses at a nightclub. It was really my only feat. I always think it's so funny, like coming off a a season i think they had this on um bachelor in paradise at one point too with hannah uh hannah g and um god i'm blanking on his name right dylan um but just to that it's news that a couple is hanging out separately like it's it that shouldn't be news that's just interdependence right i? I agree, Kathy. They're in a long distance relationship right now. That's why I actively

avoided hanging out with people in Baton Nation at times because you go into this world and there's a lot of benefits we receive as a result of going on a network television show and having airtime and popularity.

Everything has a price, and sometimes that price is a lack of privacy or speculation. But there's ways to avoid it, right? It's going to come with speculation. There's ways to avoid that and ways to not. Is the way to avoid it, though, being a hermit and losing out on having any sort of life? I mean, to some degree, maybe. Maybe even early on. Again, if you're a newly engaged couple.

And again, I'm not saying they shouldn't go out. But you are inviting speculation and criticism that no doubt can cause stress. Yeah, being on the show in general invites speculation into your personal life. It's one of those things. Like there's always, there's been speculation about like this, like Nate and you know, whatever. And I know, we know nothing really about the strength of Nate's

and Michelle's relationship. And it could be so strong and they could just be like, these are clearly rumors. This is all nonsense. And they can truly believe that. But over time, it's like you have to choose to trust in a relationship, right? And so every time, regardless if it's nonsense or not, and you hear like this silly rumor from some silly source,

you still have to actively, mentally choose to trust. And that just wears. choose to trust and that just wears do you think though that we as a as a fandom have now chosen to when a couple comes off the show happily engaged expect and like kind of not root for them to fail but I feel like there's so many people who are like, have that expectation now. I mean, as humans, we like drama, no matter what we say. And, you know, happy couple, you know, what's the,

when it bleeds, it leads on the news type of thing. It's we, as humans have toxic traits and, you know, deep doubt, it's the drama is the juice. You know, we'll get into this episode. It's a fucking shit show already. It's way less mature and way less sophisticated than Michelle's season. Michelle's season was a nice cleanse from the toxicity of Katie's season.

But it was a, boy, watching Clayton's season right now, it just reminded me of like, wow, Michelle's season was mature and nice. It was kind of boring. Fuck, you know? There was drama, but I think that it was squashed very quickly. Yeah, Michelle, she handled it so maturely. Again, nice, but... It felt like a love documentary.

Yeah, I think as humans, sometimes we, even deep down, we won't even say it. We'll be like, okay, I want that. I prefer Michelle's season though. I don't know if I'm an outlier in that. Over time, like every season? Yes. I liked it for what it's worth.

100%. At the time it was delivered, but I don't think we can continue having seasons like Michelle's. I would love to see another lead who is that articulate, who is that emotionally intelligent, who cuts out the people

that are there to be more dramatic very quickly. Like, I enjoy watching that. I mean, I agree. I would watch that season on repeat. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if you would,

but I have to take your word for it. I'm confident in saying the masses wouldn't. That might be where I'm at in my life. I would rather that than watching the manufactured drama because there are some moments in especially episode two that felt like it was manufactured and Clayton didn't know how to react to some of it. Well, I think that will be the norm.

This will be a giving season dramatically because he is just a deer in headlights man buddy all he knows how to say is I see how great you are yeah you are nice you know he's good at complimenting he's a nice guy and all of this other stuff which I mean going back to Matt James's, I feel like people said that he was boring, but it was really because he took a second to think about his words before he spoke.

Sure. Yeah, he's a thoughtful man. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know if the masses, whether they say they want, I think we all love to say,

again, it's back to the- I also really enjoyed Hannah Brown's season. And so that's, you know, there was drama on that. And it was a little bit more rowdy, but there's a difference. I don't know.

Yeah, I think deep down we like people love the toxicity. They love rooting against people. They love thinking better of themselves while watching people make fools of themselves. You know, like I think there's a lot of things when we watch,

we are not being completely honest and self-aware with why we might be enjoying or criticizing or captivated or having our thoughts and opinions that essentially trigger us. Yeah. You know, that it makes us emotionally invested. Whether we hate it or like it we are invested yeah you know well i think i mean for me personally that's why i don't watch many other reality shows because i feel like the humans are so flawed and like it is so much manufactured drama that i don't really gravitate towards that so maybe that's just i'm with you i

you know that's just me i feel like there's a sweet spot where it's like maximum drama, but then it can cross a threshold where you're like, there needs to be a mental health professional and it is crazy that there's not. You know, where there's like...

Because it gets to a point where you're like, okay, this isn't funny anymore. This makes me sad. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we're there yet though. They have.

They have them now. They have a whole team now on The Bachelor, which I've learned is far more advanced than what was available when I was there. That's good. Which is nice to hear. Was there ever a time when you were on Bachelor,

either as a contestant or the lead, where you were like, if there was someone available to talk to, I would love to talk this through with someone who's not a show producer, someone who's qualified? Yeah producer. Someone who's qualified. But not in a I need help

mentally sort of way, but to talk through Fantasy Suite Week when I was trying to sure, of course. Duh. But not in a I'm worried about my mental well-being type of way. Nothing like that.

Not to that point. Anything else before we dive into the meat of this episode? Just a little stuff about Clayton's season in general. We can do rapid fire. Sally might be back with her ex. They had a photo on Instagram. They're in Mexico together and they were standing next to each other in the photo. Samantha sent

herself home on night one but that wasn't shown. Clayton 0 for 3 not 0 for 2. Gabby went on the Talking It Out podcast with Mike and Brian and talked about her relationships

with Dean and Blake. I don't know did they take that but Blake needs to stop saying that they dated. You know he tried to get us to think that there was something

more with him and Becca Kufrin. Now he's with Janina from Love is Blind. Wild. What a weird pairing. Well, who knows with Blake, you know, it's like he walks down the street and says hi to a girl and he goes on his podcast and says they're dating. And then they're all in these women are like, apparently this.

I saw that on Instagram, though. There were like side by side photos of like the cabinets in the back of the show that they're together. Yeah. I guess she was like no and they

like what had a drink and went Dutch or something. Gabby? Gabby? Oh I was talking about Giannina. But yeah

in terms of Gabby she was saying there was never even like a drink paid for. Like he never even bought her a drink. So she was like we didn't date.

He's making it seem a lot more serious than it was I don't know why he does that who knows who knows wait very quickly though to go back to Samantha

going home on night one if this is a show that tries to orchestrate drama that to me feels dramatic a third woman leaving like why would they not show that because it paints

their bachelor in a bad way I think you have to protect your lead a little bit I mean you can only have. But their whole thing is like, you know,

there's the billboard with him and the puppies. America loves an underdog. So it's like, they're already like trying to sell him as this like underdog narrative

even though he's this incredibly tall hot white guy. They could have gone that route and gotten him some sympathy and,

you know, him shed a tear maybe. But we talked about this last week. They, again, there's a, there's a lie. there's so much content too in the limo exit like would they have been able to fit that in with the the sally going home and that that i mean that's the thing that there's clearly going to be a ton of drama i hear there's it's going to be more and more every week uh i mean

we always get a glimpse of like the rose ceremony and like you can kind of always tell the sun's coming up and last week i mean it was up yeah you know it was noon it was and so um yeah i i my guess is they you know the sally stuff was awesome in a like from a tv standpoint like she like it was it was her wedding day you gotta show that the other gal who left was just kind of funny the way her approach was Claire Claire

and and I hate him I hate him I hate him I hate him I hate him and

and and and Samantha just said they didn't have chemistry and Samantha she probably my guess is you know I saw the post it was thoughtful and she was trying to be

nice and considerate and she probably went about the same way which probably just took a long time and wasn't very juicy we already had it I hate him and and this girl like you don't want to show an emotionally mature person saying oh well I signed up for the bachelor not knowing

who it was I don't think we have a connection so person saying, oh, well, I signed up for The Bachelor not knowing who it was. I don't think we have a connection, so I'm just going to leave. That's boring. And also, you don't want to have your bachelor be dumped three times for the first rose ceremony. So we'll show two. Which actually feels a little bit more realistic. We've been hard on Clayton.

I'm starting to feel a little bit back that's not him, the person. It sounds like he's a nice guy. He was asked to be the bachelor. He said yes, because of course, and he might not be the most charismatic or, you know, sought don't know. He has this opportunity to date these, you know, 30 attractive and, you know, eligible women that I think a lot of people are wondering, would he have the opportunity to date these women in real life? I don't know. I feel like he would be fine in real life. Yes.

I think Clayton is hot. Natalie, tell us how you feel. No, I just mean that, like, okay, I fundamentally disagree with his casting, but this episode, I was like, he's giving me Ben Higgins vibes. Yeah. Like, he was being suave.

I was watching him flirt, and I was like, okay, this man doesn't have the ick in the way that I suspected he might. It's fascinating. I think there's a strong debate. I watch it with Natalie, and she is just not a fan. So I'm like, okay, well, I get it.

Like you, not a... So, and then there's you. I think it's right down the middle. Anyway. He seems like a very wholesome person. He's not someone that I would like go for, but I feel like he seems

like a very wholesome person and I can see why women would be very attracted to him same okay i like that yeah neutral middle ground if you follow me on instagram you have uh heard me talk about babble a great an amazing way to learn new languages i mean learning a language is difficult and challenging. And many of us didn't take it very seriously in school. And we're always on our phones. And instead of wasting time scrolling through the TikTok and the gram or whatever it is, you're wasting your time. When you're sitting in a car or waiting in the doctor's office or whatever it is, you could be learning a new language. Babbel's 15-minute lessons make it a perfect way to learn a new language on the go. Other language learning apps use AI for their lesson plans, but Babbel

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that is B-A-B-B-E-L.com code V-I-A-L-L. Babbel. Language for life. Okay, well let's get in the episode. I mean, again, this is going to be very highly dramatic. This is a bunch of nonsense, I guess, this episode.

Also, I don't know if maybe I'm the only one who noticed, but if you go back and watch episode one of my season, very similar. How so? Well, the first group date was at the same location. So the wedding date where Corinne took her top off, and it was the same mansion.

Okay. The cocktail party, what's Bob's Antiques. We actually, we used that episode two, not episode one. So there's some repeats. And then what's her name? The one who's like trying to teach Sinead. Cassidy is like mentoring Sinead. Cassidy, like there's been an attempt to be Corinne ever since Corinne.

And Demi did her own thing and like demi and people have been trying to replicate demi and corinne ever since demi and corinne came on and that is the the woman who kind of comes in abrasive and you think she's going to be a villain but like there's a turn and you know she's controversial and certainly has her critics but a lot of women will like love her for her authenticity and her like you know the son of her punchy one-liners and many have tried and many have failed and Cassie is the new person attempting to be the next Corinne but yeah my first I mean the similarities. My first one-on-one had a helicopter that landed on a yacht that the next beat was a hot tub.

It was just all like, okay, wow. I mean, I was going to say, it definitely feels like The Bachelor again. It finally feels like, but the fact, I mean, the one-on-one date with that high of a budget when we haven't seen something like that. Yeah, it's nice. It's been more on that one-on-one

than Katie's entire season. high of a budget when we haven't seen something like that it's nice they've been more on that one on one than Katie's entire season it's nice to yeah that does have more of a feel but so anyways

let's go back to the group date we have we have Hilary Duff oh wow she came out of nowhere I was so shocked

quite literally out of nowhere the children moved away and there she was I mean like so you think it was do you think this was manufactured drama? Because I was watching this.

Was Hilary Duff? Absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no, no. But they had their assignments. And then right off the bat, Cassidy, who was a big Hilary Duff fan, just kind of decided to... It was kind of bizarre, her behavior. Yes, it was very bizarre and i don't know if anyone noticed this throughout the episode but i feel like she was repeating the same thing

over and over to him and then also in her interviews she was i forget the exact phrase that she used but she's like i i will be here to pursue you no matter what. So you like, and saying that she was a confident woman. Yeah, when you say you're confident. Yeah. I'm not so sure of your confidence, but. I mean, it felt like she figured out what she wanted to say that would air and just said it multiple times. Yeah, I mean, she pulls Clayton aside,

not once but twice during the day portion by the pool. She pulled Hillary Duff. I don't think I've ever seen that on an episode. She's like, Hillary, can I steal you for a second? I kind of. I just really feel like there's something here and we should really cultivate this relationship because

I don't know if you're feeling the same way but like I really feel like we could be something yeah right sometimes I'm always in awe of the show having been on for so long and people like Cassidy come on and I'm just always wondering,

what was your goal? I honestly, if I saw her on the streets and I actually think she's from LA, I'd be like, what was your plan? Was it just airtime at any cost regardless of the criticism? Because there's ways to go about it and you must know that day one,

pulling him aside to straddle him by the pool and not even like, you told kids you didn't like kids. That was such a brilliant moment. Not only should you never tell children that, you should not tell child actors that because they got sassy and I loved it. Yeah, it was just like, does that what you want to be known for? It just seems so... That was actually a very funny moment though.

That got a giggle for me. Of course. But I'm just like, man, you know, because some people take it on the chin, but like people like her, it's like maybe she was just like, yeah, I don't even, I'm going to get criticism. I would wonder though, I mean, regardless of all of that,

Clayton says that he wants a family and that he wants kids and she doesn't like kids? Well, he doesn't have time. Well, here's what I think I've noticed about Clayton, you know, that I'm not a huge fan of. He, one, he doesn't seem, and it's early, so we'll see, but he doesn't seem to ask a lot of questions of the women. He just compliments them over and over on very high level platitude things. He also talks to them as if they are contestants on the

show. I like what you're seeing from you. I love your initiative. It's like a lot of sports and coach speak. It's not a lot of like, hey, I'd love to learn more about you and ask questions and follow up questions about the things they see. It's making out and I'm the bachelor. It's like he's learning how to date in real time. Yeah, but he's talking to him like he's taking the bachelor role too seriously, and it is what it is, but he seems to be unaware of the power he holds and not attempting to try to remove that power and speaks to them as if they have to show him why they should be eligible for him. Okay. I'm the only one who picked that up.

I mean, I definitely don't think that we've seen him get deeper in some of his conversations and connections with these women yet. But I also wonder, like, how much has he dated in the past? Just because I do, I mean, I feel like being an NFL player, you have the opportunity to date a lot of women but some men at that high of a level are just so laser focused on their career and their success you can't you know stray away and like devote any time to dating so was he that type of person yeah I don't yeah you know to your point yeah I don't know if he was like I don't know if he's like traditionally considered himself like a ladies' man or a charmer.

And while it sounds like he came from a very great background, it sounds like his parents were together or are together and have been for 30 years. But did he have that modeled behavior of good communication in conflict and asking the right questions if they had just been together since they were young. Yeah. I mean, it's not like a criticism like, oh, he's a bad guy or anything. No, not at all. I just think it's just, it's kind of, I wish, it's this very surface level. Well, to my point of what we were saying

earlier, I really enjoyed Michelle's season because I feel like it was a master class in dating sure the way that she communicated with the contestants the questions she asked

were very thought provoking really understood and got down to the nitty gritty of like learning about these guys to see if they would be

a good fit for her and then the contrast is Clayton who he's just gonna be there man heton who... He's just going to be there, man. He's just going to be there. But has it been a day at this point? I'm so confused because when he and Teddy had that moment and she was explaining she's going to need validation, she's wondering how they're progressing. He's like, I think we're progressing so well. I'm like, has it been a day?

It's not. I'm confused. I think Teddy is manipulative what i'm team teddy i was too nick where do you get that from back up that claim i'm not saying i'm not team teddy i i guess what she's literally verbalizing what she needs from him of she i mean maybe it wasn't the correct way of doing it but saying i need verbal affirmation from you that i think she knows she's smarter than him and i think she i yeah it just it came across as insincere i think she knows i think he really likes her and she said something to your point that was like, it didn't make sense why she was saying it. She's like, I'm getting emotional when I see you talk to other women, something like that. So she's talking about her emotions. I mean, if you're a guy who likes a girl and she's

just like, I'm getting emotional and you want to do something about that. So I guess she's in the driver's seat with Clayton. She got the first impression around. And when I say manipulative, I'm not like, oh, I'm just saying she knows what she's saying and the words she says that come out of her mouth are thoughtful and it makes Clayton chase her. Which I guess is good, but it's

not, I don't think it's some sincere thing. You can't be sincere because clearly unless we think that Teddy is emotionally not intelligent and that she's actually getting emotional because Clayton, she's one of 30 people. You know what I'm saying? It's day two. It doesn't make sense that she is so emotionally caught up in her feelings. I think she is a smart, capable woman

who knows what to say to a guy that she is competing for his affection and how to stand out. I disagree. I know people are going to... Yeah, I know. I'm team Teddy. I know everyone likes Teddy

and I'm not saying I don't like Teddy and it's controversial to say that about a fan favorite, but I don't believe... I think she was saying things because she knew it would elicit a reaction from Clayton I think she knew what she was saying and that's why I call it manipulative but she also she had her shoes off like there was

some real intimacy there what does that mean to me she was a bitch but she was barefoot no no no I just mean that like she had like the fact that she was like had her legs draped over them shoes off like that to me demonstrates that they have like a level of comfort with one another that is like has developed very quickly. And so I think you can also read it as she's trying to be communicative and honest and

open with her emotions and like let him know where she's at authentically. Does that also have the added benefit of getting her some validation and like engaging him in the chase? Sure. But I think I don't know that it's like, I don't know that, I think if it were dishonest, it would be manipulative, but I don't think it was dishonest. Do you think she was actually getting emotional

to the point where she needed to say that to Clayton? Emotions, you're speaking of the range of emotions as if she was sobbing into a toilet. She just said like emotions can be like, you know, I was a little bit jealous. That's an emotion. That's not what she said. I was like, there's a little, like, tink.

Like, that was, made me sad. That's not what she said. She goes, I'm just getting emotional right now thinking about you. It was, she was talking to him as if it was like week five. And as someone who's gotten a first impression rose and know what that's like, and know what it's like to go on a date the next day,

like I got an impression rose from Andy. It validated me. It felt very special. I was excited. And I still didn't know anything about her. I had no connection. I was still nervous around her. I got like the third one-on-one.

And when I went on that date, I felt like I was still like about to meet a celebrity. You know what I'm saying? Like, and she has, you know, I know people are going to disagree with me on this, but it's not normal what she said in the context in which she said it. And I think she is a very intelligent person who I don't buy the authenticity of what she said to Clayton in that moment. And by definition, I guess you could call that manipulative.

Does it complicate things that she's 24? Does that change your opinion at all? No. What do you mean? I just think like, you know, she's on the younger side, not like the youngest contestant we've ever had. But I think... She seems very...

Everything we've seen about Teddy seems very impressive and very... I don't know. She... No, I don't think her age has anything to do with it. I think from what we've seen about Teddy seems very impressive and very, she, I don't know. She, no, I don't think her age has anything to do with it. I think from what we've seen,

she seems to be the most, like, I mean, it's small sample size, but far more mature than many. Like, isn't Sinead 29? Yes.

I mean, like what we, what have we seen from Teddy and what have we seen from Sinead? I mean, oh my God, if we're talking about maturity level, like, but you think that Teddy is manipulative and all of this,

I would say mature and manipulative. What? It just, it feels like from what we've seen, Clayton is not very articulate with his words. So she's asking for verbal affirmation. She's pushing him to do more than maybe he's comfortable with or not even comfortable with, but like that

is a huge part of a relationship so to to ask for more communication to know that she's investing her feelings in the right place i feel like is not what i'm critiquing i'm just simply saying that and when i say manipulative is that she has a self-awareness of what she's saying to him, knowing it will get a reaction. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying she's a bad person. I'm not saying she is completely disingenuous. Everyone in this room has said something to a dating partner and we've all, everyone listening to this podcast has been manipulative. I'm not saying she's a manipulative person, but in that moment, what I saw, in my humble opinion, was manipulation of Clayton. I think if she was crying in the corner

and saying, it's so hard seeing you talk to these other women and hold their hand and kiss them, that would be manipulative. That would be someone who's not good at being manipulative trying to be manipulative. And I think Teddy is very uh by that definition of like you know how someone's going to react to what you're saying then isn't anybody who's very self-aware and perceptive to people's emotions

than manipulative yes again i i know i'm gonna like you all kind of gasped when i said that about teddy as if like you know one out of 20 people can be manipulative. We like, yes, people who are more intelligent are more capable of being manipulative. Also sometimes people don't know that they're being manipulative. Of course. Again, like overall, I still, she's still, Teddy's still one of my favorites. That more seems like- I hope, I'm rooting for her to win Clayton's heart, but I don't believe her and what she said to Clayton in that moment when she was talking about

how emotional she was getting with a guy that she just simply can't. Because I like, you know what I'm saying? I believe in Teddy and I believe that she, and I know what it's like to be in that world. I know what it's like to get the first impression rose. And I know just how little time they've had spent together. Yeah. I mean, that sounds more like something like an anxious attachment style sure so she just said it because and i know teddy is capable of saying things she knows sound nice and yes highly intelligent people are far more capable of being manipulative 100 and so sometimes people don't know that they're being manipulative everyone's so worried about like don't protect teddy like i think it's just i being manipulative. Everyone's so worried about like, don't protect Teddy.

I think it's just, I think manipulative is just like a word that for me, like Carrie, I think similar to the way that you view gaslighting as like a really like, we shouldn't be throwing this word around. It's a big deal. I think the context with which I, and you're right. And you're not saying this, like you're saying it's, you know, we can all be manipulative and it exists on a spectrum. But like, I think the way that I've heard it used is usually in like taking on a much larger context and like indicating something

a lot like graver in a relationship sure yeah and I'm sure we'll have a lot of discussions and reactions to this discussion but uh I yeah I don't mean it like that and we've all been manipulative and if we can't name it and call it out and have discussions about it, like manipulative doesn't mean narcissist. You know what I'm saying? It's like there definitely is a spectrum. I think we need to be able to like. I mean, children manipulate their parents into giving them ice cream. Yeah.

You know, but yeah. Okay. That's my point. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. I wrote next to Teddy in my notes.

Seems like a very genuine, easy connection. And I suspect that overall, Teddy will look great, but as someone who spends a lot of time talking about this stuff and looking at it, that's my humble take, and I could be wrong did anyone else like burst out laughing when Cassidy said I'm not here to decorate a birthday party no one is paying us

yes as if it was like oh job I really there was Cassidy had moments of trying to be Corinne and I quite like I mean listen it all is ridiculous some of the things she said is true I don't I think she's the villain of this season, but some of the things that she says are true. Yes. It's just how you go about it. She overstepped it. Again, these people who are trying to be the Corins and Demis,

the reason why you haven't seen a lot of it, because you got to give credit to the Corins and Demis, call it a skiller or whatever. You know, they knew when to pull back. They were actually funny. We're like, you know, Cassidy kind of, she said something that was true and she said it to women who overreacted to her behavior.

Like why is, and she even said it, but why is like Genevieve and is it Mara? But she was like invested in Cassidy's behavior, which is like, just ignore. Genevieve was, I think Genevieve,

wasn't Genevieve her partner though? No, Genevieve made the cake and I would be pissed too. She dropped it. She didn't make the cake. Okay, Genevieve made the cake. And I, okay, I would be pissed too. She dropped it. She didn't make the cake. Okay, Genevieve decorated the cake. And I would be pissed too if some girl who's instead of doing her work is like stealing The Bachelor. Okay, that's your choice, girly.

But then takes out the cake that I made and drops it. Like, fuck off. I'm not saying don't have an opinion. I'm just saying, of course she'd be mad. I'm just saying don't have an opinion. I'm just saying, of course she'd be mad. I'm just saying their reaction, they gave Cassidy more, they invested more in Cassidy than they should have. If one of them had said, you are not a team player,

that would have been a valid argument. But some of the things that they were saying were like, oh, you went and talked to Clayton instead of doing your work. Like that's not a valid argument because that's what you're there for so she could then argue her point of aren't we all here to do the same thing yeah it's a tale as old as time on the bachelor they literally give people they just want good lawyers and assignments yeah and and they tell you uh whether you know jesse

palmer now hey at some point jesse palmer is going to come out and he's going to talk to the women and say, hey, time is limited. Use your time wisely. Take no prisoners kind of thing. And then the show is going to edit them and show other women getting mad at him for literally listening to the host of the show and we're all going to like... I don't think Clayton likes her though. His body language has been so telling this season

and when they were sitting next to the pool, he was sitting like away from her. He was straight up and she was like trying to put her leg over him. Exactly and I think that he knows that he has to keep up appearances because he is the bachelor he and she's the one that made the first move so now that they've kissed he's like whatever I'm just gonna do it it's for the show but I see no connection there and I think

that even later in the episode which we can get to when I forget her name came to him and said Cassidy has a friends with benefits back home. He almost laughed. Like it looked like he was just like, this is hilarious, you know? But then why did he give her the group date rose? Well, I'll tell you why. As we've mentioned in previous... Producers. I won't. What I will say is what I've said before, there are two types of group date roses. There are drama roses and there are love roses. And that was 100% a drama rose. And I believe that the second-

Who would have gotten the rose otherwise on the date? Serene. Serene, okay, yeah. I did like Serene a lot. I also really like Serene. I know the super T's wanted us to believe that Serene might be a villain. I hope that's inaccurate.

I really like, she's a school teacher, yeah. But what an epic villain. Oh my God. like she's a school teacher yeah but what an epic villain oh my god the school teacher villain because she's so polished and powerful and smart and she's really kind like if she was a

villain that would be epic yeah I really like her I hope she goes far but yes that would that would be but I don't see it I don't she seems to yeah polished and genuinely good genuinely good and like you know But yes, that would be. But I don't see it. I don't. She seems too, yeah, polished. And genuinely good.

Genuinely good. And like, you know, like I do think, I think the hot messes are plentiful in this cast. And I just, I do believe that some, one of these women will go after Serene. They will be jealous of her and the attention she's getting. And they will say crazy shit like you know but her mental health like adhd or something you know and we'll get into that but

um i i don't see her actually being a villain but who knows who knows but yes i think 100% cassie got a drama rose corinne got a drama rose i mean it was like the i mean maybe i when i was watching the beats of this episode were just like really very similar to uh episode one from my season can i say gabby is also excellent television she gives great sound bites unintentionally of i forget my dreams a lot learn about i think Gabby will be on for a while for that reason. I don't know if there will be a real connection.

Yeah. But I think she is a good soundbite. I think she will. I mean, listen. She just seems like fun. It's not a coincidence she dated Dean

and then either had a drink with Blake or whatever. But she seems to be willing to insert herself, as we said last week, in situations. And that is a valuable resource to have in this world.

All right. Mara's going to self-destruct by... Oh, yeah. That was the other thing. That's what I'm saying. It was just like, yeah, be mad at Cassidy for the cake, but when Cassidy got the rose, it's day one. Yeah.

Someone has got to get it. And do you, I mean, I'm really curious. I don't think everyone watches this show who goes on. I think it's, would be, I mean,

I remember, I remember Vanessa always saying how I never watched it. I never watched it. And I just remember being like, well, babe, I don't know. I don't know.

That was particularly smart. Like at least, at least do your research, whether you're a fan or not, you know? And so whether you're a fan or not you know and so whether you're a fan of the show or you've at least been like you know what i should probably watch a season and it just takes one season to watch to like recognize that this shit's going to happen and why is she getting so in she's a, you know, she seems like mature. She's like, you know, how is Cassidy versus Mara?

I mean, you can see it on television, but then it's one thing to actually be in that environment and be so thrown off your game. Mara is 32. And Cassidy's how old? 26. Okay. But you'd think, you know, she'd be like, you know what?

Maybe it would be easy in that environment for Mara to be like, I used to do silly things like this. You know what? I'm not going to let this bother me. Yeah. But she was incredibly triggered. Yeah. And I think she even said that. She was like, this feels like college again.

And I think with people who don't form an instant connection with The Bachelor, they don't have that much to go off of with that. So it's like they turn to what do they have around them? Like women. Yeah, but it's so... It's tough to watch. It's so early. Great for us.

Yeah, who gets the... The one-on-one? The one-on-one. Susie. Susie. We've got helicopter yacht situation. Helicopter yacht situation. Retrieve the art back on The Bachelor.

I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Like, there was like, I guess, was anyone else kind of confused by her? I mean, her dad got sick. Yeah. And then.

Recovered, got to hold the grandson. It seemed... I hope her dad's okay. And I don't know what she went through. It seemed like a strong attempt at a sad story. Not so much like a... We've had some real tearjerkers before. Do you think that that's a product of her trying to make a connection

and tell him what she's been through that family is very important to her when he's not asking questions maybe yeah because it didn't seem like it seemed like she offered that information it didn't seem like he was saying hey are you close to your family tell me what your you know family dynamic is i mean i don't know but i my my guess is it seems like talking about like who watches who doesn't i i would guess that she's seen 10 seasons of the bachelor knew the assignment and came in but i felt like she also turned it into what she looks for in relationships now she talked about growth and progress and how those are ongoing and she keeps one building and growing and yeah it wasn't just a sad story it It was fine.

I guess it just kind of like, I thought we were going to like, you know, it's date one, the first date. And usually like there's a reason why that first person, there's always a reason. And clearly like Clayton likes her. Sometimes, as we mentioned last week, the first one-on-one isn't always about the connection between the lead, but sometimes it's kind of setting the stage for either Clayton's storyline or whatever, but it just kind of seemed to fall,

like she started, I don't know, the story plateaued and just was like, okay, it was just like, whatever. I feel like that's one of those times where the soundtrack really does someone dirty, you know, because it's like with the swell and the music, it's like, because I don't know that she was trying to be particularly dramatic or embellished, but it's like, yeah, we look at the past first dates and it's like because i don't know that she was trying to be particularly dramatic or embellished but it's like yeah we look at like the past like first dates and it's

like we had greg talk about his father passing we have jamie talk about his mother's suicide we had like a lot of really like free talk about um her like her sense of like lack of belonging and family like we've had like real heavy hitters and so i think part of it is just like i also feel like that is something that you would share on a first date like what's that your your family dynamic if you're if your father was just really sick a few months ago I think I mean like that's something that you would probably offer up so but and I'm very it's so great to hear you seems to be doing well and that's that's awesome and I think you do make a great point, Kathy, that I think it will be harder. It will be interesting because Clayton doesn't seem to ask.

They could be editing it out. That's possible. But he doesn't seem to be asking a lot of questions. He seems to be focused on compliments and being nice. And so that makes it more challenging for the women to be focused on compliments and being nice. And so that makes it more challenging for the women to be like, okay, well, I guess I'll- They have to offer up information. I'll talk and I'll tell you

what I think I should say about myself. I also think that there is some sort of connection that maybe we haven't seen on camera with them yet outside of this one-on-one date because it was enough for Cassidy and Shanaynay to have that conversation of who do you think got the date and immediately it was Susie. Yeah and then Cassidy was like. So other people in the house see some sort of connection or or just see Susie as a threat. I think it's probably more the latter.

Both perhaps. Night one, you don't see really any conversations. Yeah. I would say if I saw Clayton and Susie walking down the street

as a couple, I'd be like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, exactly. It makes sense. She's a beautiful woman. She seems nice. When we all met Susie,

I feel like Bachelor Nation as a collective thought, watch out, this is someone to watch. I was like Bachelor Nation as a collective thought watch out you know this is someone to watch. I was going to say it seems kind of like Hannah Ann and Peter

without the toxicity. It seems like and I know a lot of people have been comparing her to Kayla Quinn Hannah Brown as well

but Kayla Quinn in personality I feel like. Oh I didn't hear that. Yeah. Just very sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Even Clayton said on the that. Yeah. Just very sweet. Yeah. Yeah.

Even Clayton said on the date in his interview, it felt right. It feels right. I'm like, doesn't he say that about everyone? I feel like we're going to get a lot of Clayton platitudes.

You know, we could probably do a montage by the end of the season. How right it feels. Of all the generic things he says. Yeah, you could take his clips about any date and any woman and put them on someone else. We should play that game. And you would he says. Yeah, you could take his clips about any date and any woman and put them

on someone else. We should play that game. And you would not know. Yeah, you should do an interview clip or him talking about a woman and then guess who he's talking about.

And I guarantee it would be zero for ten. That's a good point. Have we? I don't, yeah, I think the Cassidy and Sinead, I think they see her as a threat and again there's there's just high it's highly unlikely they have anything to go on because they

almost certainly didn't witness the conversation between clayton i mean there's no time in night one it sounds like there was so much drama there's just I mean his connection with Teddy if anything was she got the first impression Rose so I think it's just more the threat of another blonde who they're like

a caramel blonde as opposed to Susie also said she was the class clown and I don't know if that got edited out but I haven't seen any craziness from her. Like, yeah, I agree. What do you mean that got edited out? She said, no, I haven't seen any really funny moments. Yeah.

I've seen more from Kate. I've seen more from Gabby. Yeah. I also, I think the moment where they were talking about dancing, that stuck out to me as like, oh, okay. They're really vibing right now and she was like

yeah I can't dance at all so I'm like maybe she's like someone who's like I'm occasionally self-deprecating that's the class clown she's like get this

I'm self-deprecating but I'm beautiful it sounds like self-deprecating in the pageanty sort of way totally yeah

it's all relative totally she did seem very as Clayton said, 7 million times humble. She did seem like pretty... Yeah. She seemed humble.

Yeah. She seemed very like genuinely excited. And in fairness to all these women so far, I mean, shit, we're going to go through a whole season and for the women who are the top four, we're going to learn 10% about who they are as people. Yeah, totally.

Let's be clear there. So we can't possibly expect any of these women in the first date to be like, well, we haven't seen that yet. Totally. We just got started. We saw five minutes of their eight hour long date. Yeah.

All right. A group date too. Before that, I love the, was it Jill? Yeah. Jill reacted as if she was the only they made it seem like she was the only one who wasn't getting a date

I know yeah hot to Eliza handling it like an absolute champ I'm like I was just like that's Final Four energy

right there yeah I love Eliza she's also from Berlin she was one of those people where like I don't know how you women felt

but when not only I was like oh another person who didn't get a date and in that what 30 seconds we saw of her one of the most memorable people of the entire episode you know what I'm saying

and didn't even get a date. Yeah. Show stopping. But Jill misses her cat. Yeah. Jill seems a bit kooky. You know. Yeah.

She showed up with the ashes night one. She is a bit kooky. Yeah. Okay. She's also an architectural historian you know

in a sea of nurses. She used to work in I saw a TikTok of her popped up on my For You page. Back in the day like for one of her jobs she used to work out of a cemetery TikTok of her popped up on my For You page back in the day like for one of her jobs used to work out of a cemetery I believe

like I think she's she has unique interests yeah yeah who was the girl that was in the taxidermy oh Kendall Kendall

Kendall yeah I'll just let that marry me I really Kendall Kendall there's nothing else to say there I don't know I married her. I really... Kendall. Kendall. There's nothing else to say there.

I don't know. All right. So then we have another group date and our celebrity guest is Z-Way. None of the girls knew who she was.

I love Z-Way. Also, shout out, she went to Northwestern. She did. Yeah, she has her own show on Showtime. Let's get her on the pod. She's great.

Yeah, she's hilarious. Fantastic. I feel like the episode didn't do her justice. Not at all. No. I think I agree. It kind of fell flat. Clayton clearly doesn't know who she is. I feel like most of the girls didn't know who she was.

Yeah. And she's hilarious. She is fantastic. She was, I don't know if you saw her Instagram lives, but like during when there was like a large national conversation about race in like June July of 2020 she would do these amazing Instagram lives with people who had been cancelled where her whole comedic style was just asking very direct questions and kind of seeing what people would say like she

would ask people like who's your favorite black person and just kind of see what they would say and so she has a very like sort of her style of comedy is very just, but it's very fearless. And it's very honest. And so I thought the date was planned well for her. I thought it was very interesting. Sinead, who's now Sinead, was doing interviews saying, I should have sat next to Clayton. Cassidy would have sat next to Clayton.

They're such minions. That whole Cassidy teaching Sinee how to be on The Bachelor was just bizarre yeah and it there's a lot more this season where they're

taking away that veil I feel like they talked about how they don't have phones they're talking about how like they're coaching them how to get more screen time essentially

and it just it seems different in that regard. I kind of, I do like that. I mean, I've, my frustration with the show has always been its unwillingness to adapt at times. And, you know, and they like, hey, it's not broke, don't fix it.

Kind of, that would be, I'm guessing their argument. But I do like them acknowledging that like technology yeah even suzy's 10 years suzy's saying normally i would call my dad about this or something like yeah and that's yeah finally acknowledge that you can't talk to any other human being but yeah this the cat you know the coaching it was this bizarre and then and that's what i found so surprising. It's just like, what? I was just like shocked. Where do they find the Cassies and Sineads?

Because they're not plants. They're not. I just, they're just that this is who they are. It's them doing them. And yeah, some people. I know plenty of girls like them. Yeah. I guess some people take it on the chin when it comes to the edit,

where it's just like, this is a bad soundtrack and out of context comments. But like, I don't think you could say that about Cassidy and Sinead. in interviews if someone's not on camera just doubt that that is said in that moment or in that context but there was there's stuff said by Cassidy that is directly like you see her lips moving to the words you also see how different her demeanor is when she's in confessionals and with the girls versus when she's when she's with Clayton she's different and around Clayton no I did other did other people notice Like, I was really struck by that. Yeah. I mean, I was just kind of,

the whole thing was. Because like, I tapped out on Cassidy. Are we going to find out what Marlena is Olympian in? Hopefully. Yeah. I just thought it was so funny.

She sits there so quietly and then she goes, actually, I am an Olympian. What a flex. Badass. And what was she? An Olympian in track and field.

Oh. Track and field. Oh my God, even better. No wonder she nailed it. What events? But then she didn't win. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry.

That's really unfortunate. I think she didn't know that when you fell off the peanut butter jelly situation, then you had to go back to the start. Because I think she would have been more careful. Also, just listen to yourself. Thank you. I mean, I would had to go back to the start. Sure. Because I think she would have been more careful. Also, just listen to yours. Yeah. Thank you.

I mean, I would flex so hard if I won that and beat an Olympian and be like, yep. Of course. But like,

you know, slime and slippery floors aren't an Olympic event. It should be. What events did she run? It doesn't say in the bio, but I can do some research. Nick's track passion

is burning right now. Oh my God. I want to sit down with her. Can we talk about on the group date card, there was a moment i forget who it was it was like sierra mira and i don't know they all rhymed and it just reminded me of the uh princess diaries where they're like i'm lana and fontana they have like a little girl yeah yeah anyway she the who was sarah Sarah won didn't see that coming no

Sarah's a ringer she was one of the people who's very heavily featured in the super tees no yeah I mean I mean yeah

I just she won the obstacle course I think she's gonna be around for a while yeah I mean speaking of age yeah

very emotionally mature for 23 yeah at least so far what we've seen she's also making bank And speaking of age, yeah, very emotionally mature for 23. Yeah. At least so far what we've seen. She's also making bank. Do we know that for sure? She's a wealth management

advisor in New York, New York. So, I, there are different scales. I don't know if the bios, I mean, who knows?

She absolutely could be making bank. That field would suggest that it's possible. it can also be like a bank teller and be like i'm a wealth manager girl you work at chase not that we're doubting her at all but just if we're going solely by the the these uh what do they call them names or the chiron the chiron thank you then then we we don't know well that was something that when back when bennett was on how he was like this like guy who made such a big deal about being

rich and kind of goes to what you say on the ask nicks about like having conversations about finances is that something that ever happens on the bachelor about like hey are you in debt how much money do you make can we afford to relocate i liked your story the other day what's your credit score yeah ask that before you get engaged they uh don't talk about it. I don't even think they would air it. Again, I think that's silly. I think they should talk about it. I think that's a missed opportunity. Why not? It's a real thing. But that's also most couples don't... What is it? There's five things that people usually don't talk about because they are taboo before you get engaged. But there are things that make or break a marriage, religion being one of them, finances being something. We're just not taught to talk about that.

Yeah. And it's very important. I think, yeah, I'd love to see that. Also, I would love to see Natalie joked with me. She's like, as we're watching, she's like, if you ever cheat on me, I am going on this show.

So you have to recap it. And I just, we laughed. But it made me think, I mean, there's got to be so many opportunities. I would love to see a contestant, I think preferably a woman contestant, walk up and go to The Bachelor and say

gotta be honest I'm here for spite. You seem nice. I'm open to get to know you but if I'm being totally honest I'm here for revenge. My boyfriend broke up with me a few months ago. He's a fan of the show. In fact, he looks up to you and that's why I'm here for revenge my boyfriend broke up with me a few months ago he's a fan of the show in fact he looks up to you and that's why I'm here

and again I'm open to getting to know you I don't know you at all but I'm 100% here for revenge and I think that would play so well with the audience and she would immediately become a fan favorite and she could still be there for the right reasons but would they keep her around?

I don't know. Who knows? It depends. It depends if If there's a spark. If there was that would be so funny and great

and honest. I'm here for spite. That would be great. Well, let's get in the The game. I mean, the Sinead thing

it's just the self-name is fucking weird and I've she's been there for a day the game shit i mean the shenanigans thing it's just the the self-name is it's a lot weird and i've she's been there for a day and apparently she's like she kind of weirdly gives a speech to the other women about this like discovery of this alter ego and then the bad dance that was it's an attempt to be because he said he loves a confident assertive woman to Cassidy so Cassidy is like be a confident assertive woman and that is Shanae's version of what a confident assertive woman is I guess she did wiggle we learned that Clayton loves a wiggle dance and she wiggled and I will say there's something and do I like Shanae not at all but there is something about

being like when they're like can you do the Yes, doing it right there in front of everyone. I would not. No, absolutely not. Did it borderline on feeling just bad for Sinead during this episode? A little bit. Yeah, but then we got into the whole Sinead Elizabeth situation. Well, that's what I'm saying.

It just, and I mean by feel bad, it's just like she seems completely unselfaware and emotionally sensitive in this very, you know, high stakes environment where it just kind of felt at the end of the episode, I just kind of was like, it was, you know, like, we kind of root and watch to like,

want to like, hate watch and critique and whatever. It made me sad towards the end of the episode when Cassidy even said, hey, I'm not on your side with this.

Like, that, that made me sad of like, I wish that there was someone there who was like, hey,

but, I don't know. And then let's get, obviously, the ADHD. I mean, props to Elizabeth. She handled all of this just really quite eloquently

I love how I butchered that both elegantly and eloquently I agree it was both and how she mentioned that she had ADHD and then when you got back to the group she's like you said I have ADHD and I do have ADHD.

I wouldn't be mad if someone told other people that I have ADHD though. You know what was fascinating about this is the discussion around obviously mental health and when we kind of out ourselves about anything to anyone, it's not their information to share with the larger group,

right? That's just a general like lesson we should have. And then, you know, we get into like mental health. It's like a step up in terms of privacy and respecting that. And then, you know, we're talking about ADHD, which, you know, it's a highly diagnosed thing. It's often self-diagnosed. I mean, misdiagnosedosed it's something that people will just say because you know it is one of those things where it's become used and that the implication it's in the implication from uh shanae is that she was accusing essentially elizabeth of of using it as a way to garner sympathy, although I 100% believe Elizabeth.

And so it wasn't like an interesting discussion that way in terms of like, it's not as if like Elizabeth in confidence told her, I don't know what it would be, like some sort of very, you know, something that she's really dealing with. You know, I would agree that probably half the cast says, I mean, I think everyone in this room, I mean, I've been diagnosed with ADHD. Yeah. I was going to say, I don't know if I'm the resident ADHD or how, if I'm in good company, but like, I do think there was something about like the way Elizabeth brought it up. Cause I

think like my experience with ADHD as someone who like had the access to like get neurologically tested and confirmed at an early age, like it's something that I think can be a real source of like vulnerability and weakness and that you feel like a lot of your worst qualities and like things that you are so frustrated with yourself are like linked to. And I think the way Elizabeth brought it up so calmly and was like, I want to explain what happened there where like, you know, when Janae was like, you know, you were ignoring me and she was like, I want to explain that like auditorily, I get overstimulated. Like I really related to that first of all. And second of all, I was like, you were ignoring me and she was like, I want to explain that auditorily I get overstimulated. I really related to that first of all and second of all, I was like

she handled it really well but I think she also handled it in a way that was clearly linked to a gravity for her. She's taken the time to identify and learn. Well yeah, I mean you're right. When I had an early age the things that my friends would

make fun of me for you know zoning out spacing out like looking for my keys while they're in my hand because like you know like those all became insecurities of mine so like yeah I get it we've you know and so but you're right that to that point she seemed to have this like yeah no literally I've I've invested a lot of time and working on these things as a result of this thing I have. She even validated Sinead in that moment of saying what you're feeling is valid like you should like I'm glad that you said something but at the same time she didn't apologize for it which is good. Yeah and then you know Sinead like she misremembers or lies i don't know because i love how elizabeth

was very like she knew what she said and she knew what she didn't say you know she's like yeah like she was essentially like i you you called me out i addressed it i tried to make nice of a situation i you know i didn't say i love you know, like I gave you a hug, but you know, it's one of those things. I bet, I bet Sinead honestly thought she said, like, you know what I'm saying? When, when that, when those words came out of her mouth and said, you said, I love you. I don't know if Sinead thought I'm making this up. Well, that's, I feel like so much of Sineinead what we've seen play out through this entire episode is her being attached to an outcome her yeah seeing something happen in her head a certain way and then when it doesn't play out that way getting very upset and that happened on the group date

and then it happened again in her conversations with Elizabeth yeah Yeah. It was nice to see the collective, the women kind of come together in defense of Elizabeth and kind of... I don't know that it was handled that well towards the end once it was the rose ceremony. I don't know if anything's going to be handled all that well this season, but I think we can just try to give some credit when there seems to be some level of maturity.

Yeah, I think it was good though because we saw Elizabeth showing this endless patience. Even when she said, she was like, you're coming at me for not talking to you when you literally pushed me over in a challenge. They showed that replay. It's still in motion. And then Sinead

admitted to it. Yeah, I pushed her because I wanted to win. And I think there's a certain degree where Elizabeth was like, I feel crazy. And I think bringing it, the group kind of being like, no, it was inappropriate the degree where Alyssa was like, I feel crazy. And I think bringing it, the group kind of being like, no, it was inappropriate the way you kind of were like, she has ADHD.

And when the quote, someone was like, I feel brain dead after that conversation. That was Kate. I want to be friends with Kate. She seems like the coolest. Oh, yeah.

She's one of the blondes. Hasn't gotten much screen time yet. One of the blondes. But yeah, has a lot of good comments. Seems sane. Kate and Lindsay we love a good sane girl even these pictures

Kate and Lindsay I can barely tell the difference oh yeah Lindsay seems to call it like it is too Lindsay D oh I was

Lindsay W I was thinking Lindsay W I believe you were referring to yeah Lindsay D went home night one yeah Lindsay W calls it like it is but also like

she still stood up walked away and cried which is like yeah come on it's like geez yeah just sit back and let these women make you look good by literally just sitting there just embrace it don't get up and enjoy the enjoying the insanity by crying just because you know you haven't got your time yet if i was deprived i would probably cry too sometimes you gotta cry sometimes we are dealing with people who haven't you know because at night one you get no sleep they literally stayed up all night and then you get an entire day off but i don't know like i both when i was the bachelor and i'm in an anti-season when i experienced that kind of all night long thing,

you don't sleep the next day because your adrenaline is just kind of pumping. Being sleep deprived messes with your head more than alcohol sometimes. You essentially start the season off with like not sleeping for 48 hours. And then you go into- And getting like shoveled champagne.

And again, they give you an entire day off to sleep and do whatever and relax. But I couldn't. And I think some people could, but I didn't sleep. I got maybe three hours of sleep in the first like 48 hours. Yeah. And I imagine, you know,

it's not a really restful sleep either. If you're used to being in an environment where you're home alone in your bed and then you have molt i mean how many roommates yeah can't be bunk beds yeah none of whom you trust yet yeah i mean they're filming you well i'm speaking of trust i don't know i i think uh uh cassie really trusted sir uh sierra yeah she did wild stuff like we're we're what huh first of all why are you telling anyone yeah why are you also going back to her different kind of personas i felt like even the cadence of her voice in that like tape sounded completely different like she

was just delivering her words completely differently to sierra that was actually done on camera that was one that i looked at because you couldn't see her mouth move at first. So I thought that it was the audio was taken from a different situation, but then she turned around at the very end and you could tell that it was completely synced up. Yeah. And that was a good catch. But you had a witness in Sierra being like, yeah, she told me this. I also credit to Sierra for going up to Cassidy and saying. We don't see that often.

I said this about you. I love that from her. High character stuff from her. Meanwhile, Sinead talks to Clayton. Clayton immediately pulls Elizabeth. They're like, what happened? She's like, nothing. I didn't say anything.

Yeah, I really, I really liked that from, from Sierra. And then, you know, the episode ends with, Has anyone ever

taken a rose back before? Do you think, do you think she gets the immediate boot or do you think she, I think Jesse Palmer was like, I don't know,

I haven't watched this show. He's like, I'm a happily married man. Yeah, if you go back and you watch his reaction, he's like, I don't know. Yeah, all he knows is he's like i'm a happily married man yeah if you go back and you watch his reaction he's like i don't know yeah all he knows is he's happily married happily married i i did love weird thing for them to force on us in the first two episodes the before the rose ceremony all the girls saying

that they were hoping that the night is devoid of drama oh Yeah, of course. But seriously, do we think... I assume she's going to be gone. Or is it going to be the Hannah and Luke P situation where he gives her another chance and all the girls are like, why? He hasn't even approached her yet about it. And I was kind of curious whether...

Because I couldn't tell whether he believed the Elizabeth situation. So now this is another time that he's being approached within a couple day time span. Is he going to believe it? But this is like the Elizabeth and Sinead situation was stupid, right? Yes.

It was, huh? She has red flags. It was a red flag day. I mean, there was no specificity. And Clayton's just like, I don't know. I'm supposed to ask you, what's your version? I don't know. This is very specific. Friends with benefits, yeah. And they are very

specific accusations that he can specifically go to Cassidy and say, is this true? Did you say this? Knowing that she knows she said this to Ciara, right? So I think there's a difference there. Also, good, the Hannah Brown, Luke P. I agree with you that I don't think Clayton's all that into Cassidy.

He was just like, you want to make out? I'll make out, whatever. That's the hard part of being a bachelor is literally having to make out with women who some of which are literally throwing their tongue down your throat and you're like, I don't want to be a dick. So like, I guess there's a lot of that.

Sounds really difficult. It's not fun. Yeah, no, I'm here to say yes. Would you like that? No. Cassidy was on offense. Every kiss she had. And I think Hannah Brown,

Hannah Brown would have picked Luke P if he didn't fuck up every step of the way. And so she truly wanted Luke P to work out. I don't know if- Hannah had the whole my head versus my heart debate situation with Luke. There was a deeper connection there. I don't know if Clayton... Hannah had the whole my head versus my heart debate situation with Luke. There was a deeper connection there.

I mean, I would be willing to bet with all these blondes that if you made Clayton say, who's Cassidy? There's a strong possibility he'd point to Kate.

He'd point to Lindsay or Kate or, you know, whatever. She's the one that's very sweet and confident. Yeah. So I suspect she will be gone. Then where's the drama going to come from?

Sinead. Sinead. I think there are a lot of givers when it comes to drama. And drama will be revealed. I think Rachel has some drama potentially in her. I think, I mean, Mara, for sure. I'm curious to see how he handles that conversation. That is something that I'm looking forward to.

Yeah, me too. Oh, Genevieve, I think you could see her kind of easily being triggered on the first group date of... I feel like Genevieve doesn't take any shit. Sorry. She's from Massachusetts, so I'm defending her in a disproportionate amount because of my hometown loyalty. Someone who doesn't take a lot of shit

will most likely be involved in trauma i think well i think she was one of the women who i believe is in like the final three the clayton i love you debacle so i think they're priming us they're giving her a lot of like we're seeing a lot of reactions from her because she's going to be one of the main characters this season that doesn't mean she won't be involved in drama. I was going to say Elizabeth can, even though she seems very articulate in how she responded to the initial stuff from Sinead, I mean, I don't know.

Strap your seatbelts in because like this is not in almost every possible way, Michelle's season. You're not going to get, your final four is not going to be four unproblematic people. Your future Bachelorette probably won't even be unproblematic.

I was trying to think. I can't wrap my head around anyone from this season who I would see. I mean, I know that it's still super early on. It will be someone from this season. Maybe Eliza. I think they already have their eyes on someone. I have no idea who. I feel like Rachel

has movie star eyes like sometimes they just show she has this like real twinkle and I think she's one of the people we've seen a lot of

like she got a package who is this Rachel she's the flight instructor her I feel like NC is intriguing I could see Susie

being an expat charrette for sure totally Teddy I could see Teddy. Despite, you know. Eliza. Eliza. Eliza. Scrapbook queen. Sarah.

Yeah. I mean, who knows? We don't know. But they have tons of possibilities here. And yeah, I think it's going to be highly dramatic. And I think it's going to be a wild ride. I hope Sally is the next Bachelorette

if it doesn't work out. Let's see how this trip to Mexico goes. Yeah. Give me your, Kathy, give me your final four before we- Sarah's way too young to be the Bachelorette. Before we say goodbye, give me your final four. Oh, final four. Okay, Susie.

Susie, I feel like has taken it. Honestly. Teddy. Eliza. Yeah. And Gabby. I'm going to say Susie, Teddy, Sarah, and Genevieve. I want Eliza, but I don't think it will be Eliza.

Okay. Sad. I want Eliza but I don't think it will be Eliza okay sad I mean other than Teddy I'm just guessing at this point and Teddy because she's the virgin who's already said she wants to go to the fantasy suite

true do your job give her the opportunity to say yes. Yes. Kathy, thank you. Thank you for having me. Welcome back anytime. Please, again, remind the people where they can find you

and any updates on what's going on in your world. Yeah. You can find me on Instagram at Kathy Kelly, on Twitter at Catherine Kelly. I'm going to be actually venturing into the NFT world and dropping some NFTs this week. Yeah. I got some doodles. My doodles thriving.

Some doodles. I got a very, very lucrative doodle. Oh, very nice. It's good for me. If nothing else, thanks for listening check out our instagram follow follow along put a name to the face uh bye