The Viall Files - E394 Rose Ceremony From Hell with Christina Harris and Natalie Joy

Episode Date: March 15, 2022

Today we are joined by both Christina Harris and Natalie as we dive into talking about the first night of the finale to Clayton’s insane season. After some Hot Goss about Clayton’s different press appearances leading up to the finale, we dive into part one of the episode itself. On this episode we focus on the Rose Ceremony “From Hell” where people are crying, people are storming out, and people are having their hearts broken in front of everyone else. We talk about the problematic nature of Clayton loving Susie the most, how Clayton’s apology and tell-all still holds a lot back, and how honestly would have prevented a lot of this drama. We also talk about how being The Bachelor means being a leader instead of having things your way and how Clayton appears like he has a lot of dating maturity to build. “He expected everyone to adapt instead of him having to empathize.”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Vizzy: To find out where you can purchase Vizzy go to http://www.VizzyHardSeltzer.com/VIALL Brooklinen: Go to http://www.Brooklinen.com and use promo code VIALL for $20 off your purchase of $100 or more.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @beautychickee @gintoxicpodcast @nnataliejjoy See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome back to, wow. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to, wow, well, just, I think, just, I assume it's going to be an amazing episode of the Vile Files Bachelor Recap Edition of night one of the finale. I hope everyone's okay after what they just witnessed and watched. I wish I could tell you things calm down going forward. They do not. We have a lot to get into, so let's get into it. We have a large group. Our guest, Christina Harris, is with us today. Hey, guys. Super stoked to be here. Bachelor fan extraordinaire. Of course.

I was watching the episode, as I always do with my girlfriend girlfriend Natalie. She had some hot takes and I was like, you know, now's the time to get more people. We need more. We just, we need a round table this shit. Natalie is with us for the second time recapping The Bachelor, which was the first one you did. Was it Paradise? No, it was Katie season. That was a nice warm-up. In your childhood home. Another kind of a messy season. Good warm-up. Obviously, Allie and Amanda are with us. A lot to get into. Is there even time to discuss the nonsense that was Kanye and Pete Davidson on Sunday morning? Good old skeet.

We're just keeping up with the drama a little bit. I know this is like off-brand for a Bachelor recap, but culturally relevant. Do we believe those text messages are real? I do. I do think they are real. I mean, going into this, like, I did not realize. I thought they were completely fake, but that was just because I couldn't

believe that he called himself Skeet and everything. But then once you guys all mentioned that you thought it was real, I was like, you know what? Maybe it is real. Because if that does seem like Pete would do that. Yeah. I do find it weird that his friend released him. Like, he's like, send them to his buddy.

And he's like, yo, man, like, put these out for me. Who released them? Just like a friend of Pete's. And he put in the caption, like, a message from Skeet. Yeah, he was like, hey, it's Skeet. And then Tanya was like, where are you at? Like, let's talk right now. And he sent a selfie. And he was like, in, it's Skeet. And then Kanye was like, where are you at? Like, let's talk right now. And he sent a selfie and he was like, in your wife's bed, which was a bit aggressive. It was aggressive. And Kanye put out this video, which, yeah, listen, he's an extreme man, I guess is the best way to say it. He's extreme and brilliant and at times chaotic.

But I mean, I don't know what it's like to be a father and i don't know what it's like to be a father and i don't know it's like to go through like a custody battle but at on some point like you seem to like empathize with like what must be a difficult challenge i don't know if i like agree with the argument per se but like the i'm in bed with your wife, like there's a level of, I wonder if. But it also went into like, he was saying, can we meet? Can we discuss this? And Kanye was like, come to Sunday service. And Pete was like, no, I don't want to do this publicly. Can we meet somewhere privately? And he was like, no, you can come to Sunday service. Yeah. I don't know if Kanye really is trying to like have coffee, but it is wild. It's just funny to me that pete davidson like took screenshots and like sent it to his friend who's like was i too hard on him i went off what do i say back

it's just such a really wild petty thing to be a part of and if you're pete i i mean i guess like you're just in love with kim but like that's a lot of drama to be involved in what it seems to be the early stages of a relationship and she just went Instagram official with them so like I feel like now the start is about to begin it all just seems a bit much I don't know we wish them all the best but it best. If they want to come talk about it on the podcast, we'd be happy to talk about it with them. All right. We have a lot to get into for the finale.

We're going to focus our hot goss as it relates to the finale. Right, Allie? Because there was a lot of fallout from last week's episode, which carries us into, as things kick off in this episode. And I think Clayton did some interviews and kind of gave us his insight and some other people in Bachelor Nation have made some comments as it relates to, you know, all the opinions from last week. Allie, can you help us out?

Yeah. Clayton did like a whole kind of press junket last Wednesday, which was after we watched the whole Susie situation go down. And there was a lot of feedback on that. So he went on like a couple of, you know, Bachelor Nation's podcasts. And he spoke with Caitlin. And they went over everything. She asked what he would do differently with the Susie conversation.

And he said he wouldn't be as emotional. And he was also saying like at that point, there was nothing he could do. The connection was just kind of over. He said, I felt in the moment like she wasn't fighting for me. When she stepped out and I went outside, I had these dangerous thoughts creep into my mind that she came here for personal gain, not for love. So he's afraid that she wanted to be the bachelorette. Or even just like Instagram followers. He was like, it become clear at that point in the season that a lot of girls were there just for like their own clout. And he

was like, because she wasn't fighting, he was like, why doesn't she want to be here? Why isn't she fighting? I think that's a legitimate concern. What do you think, Christina? I don't know. I didn't get that vibe from her that she was there for personal gain. I thought she was just kind of like with the whole thing was standing her ground. And when I was watching, I was completely on her side. So I don't think she was there for personal gain. I could totally see how though he would, you know, naturally you're going to overthink something like that afterwards. And you're going to be like, you're going to think the worst of the situation. And there was a lot of girls on this season that were clearly there

for personal gain and that was one of the things i noticed right away too so i don't know i mean i see what he's saying i see how he would be like worried about that but i don't know i just didn't get that from her yeah i didn't get that from her either i guess i'm just saying regardless if if we didn't get that from her did he get that from her. Did he get that from her? You know, I give Clayton some grace on that area that even if it didn't even seem that way, he could be kind of so fucked up in the head

with some of the other women and not knowing who to trust that in that moment, it really didn't matter how believable Susie was or wasn't, say, to us, that it would make sense that he got in his head that way. Yeah, exactly. He was trying to weed out and whatnot.

So I understand that logic. He seemed to recognize that he got a little angry. Yeah, and I feel like the majority of what he said on all the podcasts was a lot of these thoughts and these doubts and how he acted was in the heat of the moment. And like starting even the morning after, he was like, oh like oh I can see it and he even said like watching it back he was like oh no she was fighting she was like trying to have a conversation she was passionate so like in hindsight he doesn't feel that way but then Caitlin also asked about like the order of the fantasy suites and if Susie had like gone first if it would have been different if she would have brought that up and he said that if he knew intimacy was a deal breaker for Susie, then he probably wouldn't have slept with the

other women, but he also wouldn't have gotten engaged without sleeping with someone. So that being said, like, if he would have had Susie night one, she said, don't sleep with anyone else. He wouldn't have. But then if he'd realized it was Rachel at the end and they hadn't slept together, he would have just like said, let's keep dating and not have gotten engaged. Because he refused to get engaged without doing the physical intimacy. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's such a-

I feel for him. Like, I get that. I'm not, I'm not criticizing. It's just, doesn't that sound kind of weird? Like, I understand the logic. I understand in the pressure situation, he would want to. Like, yeah, I'm getting engaged. But, like, it's so specific.

It's like the opposite for saving it for marriage. Right? Yeah, exactly. We need to fuck. I'm sorry. It's like, I don't know. Like, can't you? I mean, let's be honest.

You can get a pretty good sense of your physical connection with someone and get a pretty good read on your attraction to them and make out and and round a lot of bases and i think you could have a pretty good idea without actually performing the act of sex are we in agreement or we disagree show no no i'm just saying it in life okay yeah, yeah, in life, yeah. Like, you guys, everyone gets naked. You can't be like finger banging on the show. No, but in the fantasy suite, they could go behind closed doors and do some things. My girlfriend has said finger banging on my podcast.

Automatic promo for the episode. Finger banging with Natalie Joy. Wow. But yeah, you can still, he could go to the fantasy with any of the women and let's say

for whatever reason they didn't have the act of sex, messed around, took some clothes off. You could have a pretty good sense of like, I think we're going to have

a great physical relationship. Do you think that that would have been something that Susie would also have gotten upset about? Oh, yeah, that's true. And they didn't have sex, but like, you finger banged her? Are you serious?

I feel like... I honestly feel like Susie would have been okay with that. Okay. I really do. I don't think Susie had this idea that... I don't think this is like a maddie pruitt thing i don't think you know i just think she you could tell like she was grappling with the kind of like it almost felt like for me like she you saw her brain go back and forth between like

i've always told myself i'd have an issue with this like when you grow up and like from whatever you know her family values and things like that to like adult life you're like I don't know it's like sex you know like we kind of like as we get more experience and I don't know where Susie is and like her dating and relationship and and physical you know intimacy life whatever but like as you get out in the dating world I think we all kind of start reassessing how we stand on these topics. And I felt like you kind of see that with Susie a little bit. Speaking of, I feel like the biggest thing that Clayton said was that he adapted to being the bachelor and being in the bachelor environment and Susie did not. Susie like maintained what a typical relationship would be,

and he was like, and I commend her on that for staying true to herself. But I adapted to being the bachelor, which is not typical. And if I was going around kissing other girls and she thought that was fine, how is this any different? There should have been some leeway

because he had adapted to this environment. I think that's the biggest problem. I think that statement from Clayton is very revealing. I think it explains his point of view. I think it explains his point of view with what we saw this episode and what we're going to see tomorrow. You told me Caitlin also said, and I want to ask you women, Caitlin had the point of view that these women should have set the expectation

beforehand with Clayton before the fantasy suite which I think a lot of people have that point of view. Do you agree with that statement? I don't think it's their job. Yeah. It's not their job. He's the bachelor. He's the leader.

The biggest problem with Clayton as I see it, to sum it all up, is that he hasn't taken any time or any consideration to consider the position of power that he is in as the bachelor. And he's taken no time to empathize. He didn't empathize with Susie's point of view. He was just focused on, again, like understandable feelings, focused on the fact that, oh oh maybe she's in it for

the followers of the bachelorette or whatever but clayton's only focus is his his love journey and he's just like i'm the bachelor and i think he's focused on finding love for himself not finding love with someone else and if he took the time to consider his position of position of power i don't understand why it's the responsibility as natalie said to set the upfront expectations yes whoever's setting the expectations would have done uh everyone the service of avoiding some of this trauma like if whether it was suzy or rachel or or Clayton, like, they could have done that. And that would have been fine, but if we're talking about they should have done that, I don't agree with Caitlin at all

because they could have done that and that would have helped, but you're the bachelor. At any point, Clayton could have, like, sat down these women, checked in at some point, maybe before hometowns, whatever, and said something like, hey, listen, as things get crazy, I just want to check in. And I just want to know, what are your expectations of me?

Do you have any non-negotiables? I can't promise you that I'm going to be able to do this because there's other people involved, but I just want to know, as things get crazy and serious, I just want to make sure that I'm, if I can help myself and if I'm realizing that this connection between you and I is stronger than anyone else, I want to do my best and avoiding ever hurting you.

And he could have done that. And is it a really a safe place? If you're competing for love, all while falling in love, while the other person's just picking, is that really an environment that cultivates to make you feel safe about bringing up non-negotiables that could be used against you? No, because then obviously they're afraid that he's going to kick them out.

He's going to give them the boot. It's like, oh, well. If all of a sudden he's like, do you have a non-negotiable? And they're like, yeah, don't sleep with other women. And he's like, I can't do that. Bye. So no, it's not know nobody's really safe so part of suzy's whole thing was she was like the person that i would want to spend my life with is not someone who would have to tell this kind of thing to like she was also like she wasn't trying to keep him on a

leash she was trying like i think in the moment as much as she might have had like a premonition of that going into it i don't think it was until after she really found out that she was making the honest game time decision and, like, realization that, like, oh, I'm feeling very disconnected from this person because I know somebody that who I, like, who I would want to spend my life with. I wouldn't have to, like, set that boundary. It would just be something where it would be mutual. Yeah, they wouldn't want to sleep with anyone else. They would only want to sleep with you.

I agree with that. Just to stay consistent, though, I will, like, I was, we were all, like, team Susie there, but I don't know if that's totally fair. That's where I'll say that might not, that might not be totally fair for Susie to say inside The Bachelor,

to say she has a right to say that. She has a right to feel that way. But she also, like, recognizing that he is falling right to feel that way but she also like recognizing that he is falling in love or it's just like it might be if suzy's empathizing with clayton it might be a challenge to try to like do that in that environment but she has she has the right to feel the way she did it's just that if she if we were to talk to suzy right um we would and we might hear like i thought i was in i was in love with him i wanted to get engaged then it would have helped suzy and clayton if suzy would have tried to set those up for expectations as well i just don't think it's her responsibility but when

she started to like i just wanted him to figure this out you are risking him being confused about these other women. Well, like Clayton said, she hadn't adapted. Yeah, that's... She didn't have the right mindset. And I commend her for that. I think that statement that he said really, it's very telling on the mess that is this episode. I also think there was a point with the Ashley and Ben podcast where he was like, I was so caught up. And I, you know, had them each like kind of compartmentalized.

And I was like, I saw their reaction to me telling them I love them. And I was like so into this whole thing. And then it was after my fantasy suite with Gabby that I realized in an interview, oh, I'm going to hurt people. And I was like, that seems very late in the game to be realizing that. And then Ashley countered him with that and said, so then why did you go to Susie and tell her you loved her if you knew even at that point you were going to hurt people? And he was like, well, I mean, I wasn't going to not tell her because I loved her the most. Oh, my God, that whole thing. Vizzy Hard Seltzer.

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today brooklinen the curators of comfort i think he centered his journey above all else. I think he went into this thinking, I'm falling in love. This is my love journey. And I've said it before, it's really hard to be the lead. He is the only one who has pressure to end an engagement.

So I empathize with Clayton from that point of view. But if you are trying to build a relationship with any of these women, The Bachelor is not about finding love on a TV show. It's about finding love that you have hopefully a chance to be successful in the real world. So all of his decisions seem to be just focused on like, well, I'm just here to find love on The Bachelor. And he is not in any way focused in thinking at all about how are any of my decisions going to impact any of these relationships if I do in fact get engaged. He's only thinking about his feelings and love for himself. And he's not thinking or checking in at any point with these women being like,

and he's not thinking or checking in at any point with these women being like, what's like, how do you feel? Like, what are your thoughts on these topics or situations? Like adapt is only expect, like we talk about this all the time on the, uh, ask Nick, which by the way, great episode on Monday, go back and listen. Quick side note, important week, just a reminder. Monday. Go back and listen. Quick side note. Important week. Just a reminder. You're listening to this recap. Tomorrow night we will be recapping what is even more nuts.

Allie Barthwell will be with us. You know her. You love her. She's been with us before. And either Susie, Rachel, or Gabby will be with us after AFR. We've been told. I don't know who. Honestly, all three of them will be a dynamite

interview, and they'll be coming directly from AFR to the studio. Sorry, we had to just remind our audience about that. Setting up for an expectation, that avoids conflict, and it seems like Clayton's only expectation of these women

is to be, like, be, well, you know, you signed up for. Yeah. And that's it. And, like, he has, I guess, the right to feel that way, but it doesn't exactly avoid you, like, hurting the feelings of people you claim to love. If he has that, you know, that mindset of, like, oh, well, this is what you signed up for. But also, has he never watched the show before? There's been plenty of Bachelors where you simply don't sleep with the women so that you... The easiest way would be to have the conversations with all the women ahead of time. But I feel like that's also unrealistic. Yeah. yeah I mean I don't think Clayton's watched much of The Bachelor

before so I think yeah I mean I think there is that we know now but I think he was just like told the rules yeah

he like might have watched one season like alright I guess so like I get to pick yeah free for all now and I get to have a fantasy suite

with all three it was just like I get to do this and they know and they know that I get to do this yeah and they tell me to get to do this. Yeah. And they tell me to explore things.

So I'm going to explore things. Like, that's the thing. It's just like, again, like I think I've talked, had plenty of conversations with other leads and you have to start being like, you realize that I was the bachelor. Doesn't get you very far with conversations with your fiancé after it's done. You're just like, there's a little bit of like, hey, like, you can't, if your fiancé is going to get mad at you that you're like kissing five girls on the group date with 17 women, like, babe, I'm sorry.

I didn't know. know but like towards the end you are asking people clayton is asking these women by proxy of being the bachelor yeah they signed up for it sure but like that's the thing clayton's just not empathizing he is just taking it so literally like they signed up for this you know and that's all he's saying he's not being like yeah they signed up for us but now i've asked these women like he has he hasn't given any thought of what he's personally asking these women to do like he is like deciding that these women signed up for it the show laid some ground rules up for expectations and that's it but personally as he's getting to know these women and they're opening up to him just forgetting about the show

he is personally asking these women to be vulnerable and expose themselves and throw caution to the wind and watch him simultaneously build connections with other people. And he's still deciding to say, I still don't really have to worry about your feelings or consider how my actions are going to impact that. And that's nuts. I think it obviously it's like later on in the episode, but Gabby obviously agrees with you because she says several times to put himself in her shoes.

Yes. Yes. In her position. And it doesn't seem to register with him. Nope. The episode kicks off with Clayton and Jesse's conversation.

Clayton and Church. Beautiful Church. Oh, yeah. Church. I think, like, Jesse's done a good job this season. Overall, I think he's, you know, it's like, Especially early on,

he looks the part. He's nice, but these episodes and this drama is I think what a lot of people wonder how he would play a role in this stuff. I think it's just comical that Jesse keeps saying things

like on AFR or when Clayton was crying and be like, I just, I just need help. Pan to Jesse coming in. And he just sits there. Jesse literally said to Clayton after like the fight with Susie and Jesse just looks him straight in the eye and goes,

yeah, that was crazy. Yeah. What the fuck? And then he was like, all right, man. Hope this was helpful. Pass him, leaves. All right, brother. I just, yeah what the fuck he's just like a placeholder alright man hope this was helpful pass him

leaves alright brother bye I don't know why Jesse keeps saying how much he was there for Clayton there's like this thing

between Clayton and Jesse it's like yeah I was there for you and Clayton's like yeah you were there for me and I'm just like you're like when

how what Jesse's just like yeah and so just so you know the two women, rose ceremony. He is the host. So it's like if you're going to be the host and you don't want to be a mentor, just be the host.

But the fact of the show is trying to have him also play the role of mentor and he just is recapping. He's like, so like you pissed off Susie. She's gone. All right. You have Rachel and Gabby. There's a rose ceremony tonight. They're expecting you to propose. So, like.

What are you going to do? Good luck. All right, well, see you later. I'm going to go take a spa. And then Clayton was like, and I just have to be fully vulnerable with them and transparent. And, like, they might leave. And Jesse was like, so they might leave because you're being fully honest and transparent with them. That's what you want to do, brother?

Okay. All right. See you later. This recap is fucking wild. Anyway, so he goes in the rose ceremony. He attempted to be honest, I suppose, but like

is the rose ceremony the environment in which, how would you ladies feel? What I found, this episode wasn't about sex at all. At all. Which I actually quite liked. This was about

communication and words of affirmation and what love means to different people. That being said, if you guys could imagine yourselves on The Bachelor. I can't put myself in someone else's shoes, actually. I'm like Clayton in that way. It's impossible to know.

Would you have wanted Clayton to, like, knock on your door, walk into the room, and be honest then? Or, you know, just think you're coming in for a rose ceremony. You got to think about the beats, too. Like, Rachel and Gabby have probably seen

the show before and you know when it's on the final three there's been other seasons where that third person doesn't show up before the Bachelor does

and you're like oh shit I've like made it you know like try not to smile shocked but like yes

you know and there's a little bit of that that happened to me on Andy's season and then so like he's already setting them up and then he's like so I gotta tell you something would you lady would you have wanted to like find out even though it seems like Rachel and Gabby prepared themselves for the fact that Clayton might be intimate. So that being said,

would you have wanted to find out standing next to the person? Or like, it seemed like that was unnecessarily, like, it seemed like it might've felt a little awkward. I don't know. Thoughts? Well, first of all, no, would not have wanted to find out that way, especially next to, you know, the woman that he also slept with. I feel like there could have been a way better way to do that, like, ahead of time separately. That being said, I think that he should have told them prior to the rose ceremony also, because you got to think they're, like, in the rose ceremony, they got to say, you know, will you accept this rose, yes or no? And he tells them all this really heavy information, and what do they have, like, 10 minutes to process it before they got this rose yes or no and he tells them all this really heavy information and what do they have like 10 minutes to process it before they got to say yes or no

so it's like they have as long as they need yeah i guess so but i mean i guess i don't know i feel like i would have needed more time to process on my own rather than being like swarmed by you know producers and the pressure of already being at the rose ceremony yeah that would have been ideal but it is yeah no bachelor yeah exactly i know but i i do think clayton could have knocked on like well in real in real time like had he said i'm not going to do this at the rose ceremony it would have still been like an hour before and either way there would have they could have been not a rose ceremony. Like, for example,

like, hometowns on my season, I had sent home Christina, and I was just like, there's only four of you left. And they watched me send Christina home because I, like, knocked on their door and pulled her aside

and, you know, it's part of the show. But, and so I just gave them all roses. I was like, I'm not going to put you through a rose ceremony. Yeah. And some of those conversations, like, you can have with producers. I was like, how about we just, how about, there's only four left.

How about, like, how about I not put them through this? And they were like, okay. And so, like, he has some say in that. I don't think he knows that he has some say in that. Okay. I don't think he knows that he has some say in that. Yeah. I think he's like... I'm the bachelor. I have to do everything.

I can't argue. I can't speak my mind. Like, I don't know. I feel like he doesn't think he can do that. I think you're probably right. And I'm just wondering, you know, so many people, like, we talk about the producers on the show plenty, right? people like we talk about the producers on the show plenty right and there are times where we suggest that maybe or other people suggest or certainly cast people complain that well the

producers told me like to say this and it's always like when things don't go well for cast they like to say that some of their choices and their words weren't really their choices or their words. Okay. Certainly, I've always referred to them as the friend who tells you to buy the boat. Like, they're not necessarily looking to give you the most sage advice at times. But, like,

do we want the producers to not say anything at all and just let people be themselves? You know, because it's like either the producers are telling giving you bad advice or they're not saying anything at all and i've seen a lot of times where producers give them good advice like not just the lead there are plenty of times where people are like hey man i think i should do this they're like yeah i don't know i don't know if that will go very well for you you know do we think, what role should the producers play?

Because, correct me if, doesn't it seem like Clayton, even when he like does these interviews, and when he talks to Jesse, he has a very like, he seems very sure of himself at times. Where he's just like,

no, I'm going to do, like he's, he's going about being the bachelor, like, kind of like how he, he's just like no i'm gonna do like he's he's going about being the bachelor like kind of like how he he's a football player and clayton gives the kind of energy that in football i just i have to muscle he muscles through things like when he lift weights when he's like i just i'm just gonna run through this line i'm just gonna run through these and it feels like clayton's just wants to like, when he feels like challenged, he just muscles through things. There's no kind of nuance or kind of like, hey, let's take a step back.

It's just like once I've decided to do something, he just, he has this like, I'm going to do this. I have to be honest with these women. So like, fuck it, rose ceremony. honest with these women so like fuck it row ceremony and it's like i it's almost as if he he knew telling these women would be incredibly difficult and challenging he's like i don't have to tell him i had sex with both of them i'm gonna tell him i was in love with him and it was almost like yeah good for me like you know what i'm saying it's like he like he was gonna rise to the challenge the big problem i have with his like so-called admission of the truth and his full transparency was the fact that he left out a

really important part and if i just wondering how especially with the gabby stuff only really i can just not so sure if we'd still have two women meeting Clayton's parents. Had Clayton been like, especially when Gabby had like left and Clayton goes down. And if Clayton would have been the kid. One more thing. Sorry. I may have told Susie that I love her the most.

Yeah. A rather large omission of the truth when talking to these women about having like the sex almost like irrelevant at this point they're they're both just focused on him saying i'm in love and gabby's just i love how gabby was just like you can't you know when she said you can't measure love interesting enough i think people could debate that i think people so i think there's some people who could say like i i love a lot of people and I have a better connection with this person than that person. You could debate that. But I still loved in the context of this environment where you have three people and the whole goal is to find one,

that you should not be measuring your love for those people. that you should not be measuring your love for those people. And also she said when he was like, I have love for all three of you in different ways. She's like, yeah, but then you're counteracting that by saying that in the end you're going to choose the person that you love the most. And if you're saying you love us all in three different ways, then how do you know who you love the most?

If you're saying it's, you know? But he failed to mention that. What a huge omission. And weirdly enough, I don't think Clayton was trying to lie. You know what I'm saying? Do you think that he was deliberately leaving that out, like lying about it? The whole thing just felt very slimy to me especially it just felt like like natalie and i were talking he said the same thing basically to both of them of but i love you in different ways and the love i have for you is different than what i have for rachel stands true and yeah and then he's like and then one day the other love will just fade away and i'll have the one like it just was very it felt very sales pitchy because he was convincing them to stay.

And I was just like, if you knew at that point that Susie was the most, and maybe he, whatever, at that point was still like, whatever, she's gone, so I just have these two. It just felt like he wanted as many options as possible. And when one of them left and then he was down to one, he panicked and was just throwing everything at Gabby to make her stay.

Totally. I mean, like, again, I think it was because, and when I say, I don't know if I think he was like, I don't think he was consciously being like, I have to leave this out. I think, again, I think it's about him centering his love journey for himself. And it was like, Susie's gone. So like Susie's irrelevant now. I'm still the bachelor. And I believe that he, I think he's, you're seeing a guy who's confusing having a connection with people with love like he's confusing chemistry and a connection with being in love and i think clayton has a lot of growing up to do and i don't even mean that like trying to be a jerk i think he has he's very inexperienced when it comes to dating and

relationship it seems and i think you're seeing what feels like the 16-year-old version of trying to understand your feelings. And you compound that with him being the bachelor and taking no time to empathize with these women, as Gabby pointed out beautifully. And he's just like, yeah, Susie's not here. So it's kind of irrelevant. nuts i think it's nuts for him to think that way and i think if he just took any time to empathize with these women rather than being like i adapt

adapt because i'm adapting so you should adapt, is a wild approach. I think it's nuts that they, after he told Gabby and Rachel this whole scenario, that they then were just going to continue on with the rose ceremony. And then whoever he chose to come up to get the rose first, the other person's like, well, he loves them more than me. That was maybe the most important, like, who goes first. And you could see it in Gabby's face. As soon as he said Rachel, she was like.

Okay. She was like, I'm done. I'm out. That was it. Like, if he would have called her first, I'd be like, maybe she would have stayed. And she's like, that was it, my last reason. I can't. Interestingly enough, the order of the roses is not relevant.

And it's definitely a tool. But I do feel like combining the points of what you asked of like, should he have knocked on their door and done it earlier? The fact that it was in a rose ceremony, I feel like then his words of like, oh, it doesn't matter if you accept the rose or not. You have, you know, take some time. It doesn't matter to me if you say yes or say no. Like, it's completely up to you.

I didn't feel like they were as genuine because if he would have knocked on their door at 2 p.m. and given them five hours to figure that out, as opposed to like Natalie said, it just went straight on in. I was like, and then Rachel had to ask for a moment. She was like, can I excuse myself? And then they both went and had their sobs. Well, when Clayton said, you know, just so you know,

you don't have to accept this rose. I thought that was also a really weird thing to say. And this is like a theme with Clayton in these episodes. He says something that you can tell he thinks he's trying to be a gentleman

and nice. Like he has the best intentions. But these episodes are a perfect example of you can have the best intentions and still be reckless with people's hearts if you choose not to ever empathize with their point of view. Because like, don't you think it's kind of weird to give permission to people to not have to accept a rose but i think clayton's literally like oh just so you know i mean i know i'm the bachelor but like you don't have to say yes you know and i think he's like literally that's his mindset where he's just like i don't want you to like feel like you have to because i know i'm the bachelor even though like he says it, it's just wild. And I think he's so laser-focused

on the fact that he's the bachelor. You know what I think this episode is a cautionary tale to? All the people who tell themselves everything happens for a reason. Because this is what thinking everything happens for a reason gets you. And if I had to guess, and I think he's already said it, I think he said it on our podcast.

He might not have. I don't know. I could be wrong. I think you could probably play some tape where you find Clayton at some point this season saying everything happens for a reason. With Rachel because she's like, I feel that way too. Yeah. Amanda.

Did he also say that when Suszy was leaving or something along those lines when she was getting in the car oh that's when he references faith yes yes that was a man of faith i believe everything happens for a reason yeah exactly so i'm gonna let you go listen and listen he's not the only one a lot of the women have said this season but like everything when people like to say everything happens for a reason, it's usually in a very difficult, challenging time. And people love to say it as an alternative to considering their own individual choices and how their choices played a role

into the situation they find themselves to be involved in. And I honestly think that like clint was just like oh well suzy left and even though i love her the most i'm going to convince myself that everything happens for a reason and i have these two women who i do like i believe that clinton feels strongly for gabby and rachel and he's just like well everything happens for a reason so i guess because i'm the bachelor i can pursue these women and he's convincing himself and that's this that's the bullshit that can get that that can happen when you just like decide to tell yourself everything happens for a reason as opposed to like taking accountability

for your choices and how they might like impact the people around you also he when he's down there with gabby and she's like i guess when he she finally agrees to stay, I don't remember the exact dialogue, but he could have been like, you know what? Stay right here. Goes and gets the rose and asks her to, but instead makes her come back up, stand at the rose ceremony. I thought that was so awkward. It's nuts. It's nuts. I don't 100% blame Clayton for that.

Sure. But whoever it was, it's nuts. I think it's a show thing. And maybe this is just him being who he is. And I think there have been other leads who have been like, hey, guys, no, this is nuts. Like, I'm going to be a human here. I'm not going to be the bachelor, you know? And I feel like Clayton was just like, no.

And I don't, what I think happened in these situations is that the producers stayed out of Clayton's way. Yeah, you just got this on your own, buddy. And do we think they should have stepped in more? Or if Clayton was just like I want to do this I want to tell these women at the rose ceremony I need to be honest with them I need to tell them do we think they should have been like maybe do it a different way or because their main job is to make a good tv do they just let the guy who's very confident in what he wants to do do what he wants to do let him do what he wants to do yeah i mean part of me wants to be like okay the producers are

human and if he were to talk to them they would be like ah you maybe should do this in a different way then you know a bigger part of me is like at the end of the day they're working for the show and they had to have known that you know by him doing that at the rose ceremony was going to cause absolute chaos i want to believe that like they would help him but then at the same time like ah but it is still showbiz like so it's very nuanced yeah in my experience with working with him if you are sincere on a human level and say i really need some like human advice what do you think I should do? I think they usually give you good advice, especially at this level.

But if Clayton was like, I know what I need to do. This is how I want to do it. They might just be like. Just back out. And if he doesn't ask, like, what do you think I should do? And he's just like, you know, when I play football, I just. It's like how he goes about it. He's just like, I'm just going to fight for the extra yard.

So I'm going to go and fight for the extra yard. And they're like, okay, well, that's one way to do it. He's like very in like his way. He's probably not getting that like good of genuine advice. And he's like, like you said, the whole going back to the whole, well, I'm the bachelor. So I know what's best and I need to do this. And I'm not going to take advice from everybody else like i'm just going to go for it what was he thinking when after gabby left i mean if he doesn't end up with gabby

she was like your words don't hold weight well like what's to stop you from saying all this to me now and then sending me home and i think that was pre-rose ceremony but the same thing stands now that she's accepted this other rose there's still a huge amount of doubt rightfully so because she's like yeah you say you love me but you told everyone else that too do you think do we take a little bit of the heat off of clayton just because gabby chose to accept the rose knowing I mean the only thing she doesn't know is that he loves the most so there is that but minus that she is accepting a rose from Clayton knowing that he loves Rachel and Gabby so she knows that she can still get hurt. But I just think it's a real ass move to Gabby decide to like,

you know what, I've had enough. You know, try to take her power back a little bit. Clayton goes and tries to talk to her and then pleads with her to stay. All because he's just like, well, I still don't know. You know, and it's just like, all right, if you take Clayton's words at face value, like he doesn't know between Gabby and Rachel.

And I actually believe that. I believe that Susie was his favorite. She left. Now he's like, he has to reassess.'s just like oh well she was my favorite but i love love them which that's the thing it's just after like he met his her parent clayton met the parents right and even clayton's family was just like you don't love them the same can we talk about clayton's dad though clayton's dad was pro all of the women anti-clayton from the start yeah i i was like i can't blame him yeah i thought clayton's family

was they seemed very sweet and nice and honestly like good currency for clayton because i don't think i don't think clayton's a bad guy i don't think people should be saying all these nasty things online. I think he might be well-intentioned. I just think he is immature. I think he doesn't, I don't think he knows what love means. I think he's confusing connections and chemistry with love. And I think he got selfish and didn't take the time to empathize, but like, yeah, I think his family was absolutely fantastic. And his dad was great and they all make sense it was it was it was it this episode yeah it was this episode where like his family was just like you don't love them the same yeah because it was at the end of this episode

that he did the whole monologue about realizing that it's yeah yeah and then we're left on a cliff well he still he still has honor and he still has unanswered questions with suzy but it kind of reminded me of like when when i introduced raven and vanessa to my parents they met raven first they liked raven they thought she was sweet and as soon as vanessa walked in i could tell i could tell that they knew that i was like without it there they knew I was gonna pick Vanessa. Without even really, within the first five minutes, you know,

a combination of just, like, they'd seen women I had dated before, it was just like, you know, Raven was just very different from what I used to date. They just didn't see it as much, right? So, like, you know, Clayton's family sees it. They're just like, what do you mean you the same

you know and clayton i think what i think this is all about suzy i think his confusion with rachel and gabby has everything to do with the fact that he does in fact love suzy the most but i just think at the end of the day it is insanely reckless towards gabby and rachel like the only one who doesn't know that he loves suzy the most is gabby and rachel suzy knows clayton knows it seems like his family knows we the audience know you know what i'm saying like now when they watch this back that it It seems like his family knows. We, the audience, know. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Now, when they watch this back, it just seems like everything that Clayton said to Gabby, specifically Gabby, because like, and Rachel too, it just seemed like a lie.

Because it was just like, but if you told them that you loved Susie the most, like, Gabby definitely would not have stayed. Oh no. Like Rachel might've fought. Cause I think, you know, I,

it seems like from our standpoint, like I think Rachel is agrees with us. And that is the connection we see between Rachel and Clayton is the strongest. Do you agree? Absolutely. Yeah. I was actually going to ask who you, um, who you thought Clayton's parents liked more. And then I was

going to be like, why do you think it's Rachel? Like, it's very, I was always team Rachel because I thought that they always had the strongest connection. I mean, I see the connection between Clayton and all, you know, all the women, but I always thought it was the strongest with Rachel. And then when he's like, oh, but I'm in love with Susie the most. I think it was Clayton's dad that was like, I think you're obsessed with the idea of the person that got away, the one that got away.

So now I'm thinking like, is that also playing into, oh, like I'm in love with Susie the most, like because she's the one that got away. Because I thought that he also had the strongest connection with Rachel. Although he's saying that he loves Susie the most. I think we all can be confused about our feelings.

We all have had bad pickers in the past. We've all chased validation. Like, Clayton wouldn't be the first one to make that mistake in this atmosphere. And it could be as simple as focusing on that. Yeah, I think, well, definitely clayton's mom loves rachel yeah i find it interesting how uh clayton's dad told gabby that he respects the fact that she walked away and then clayton's mother told rachel that it speaks volumes that she stayed. But you know why though? When Rachel was talking to

Clayton's mom Rachel was talking about Clayton in such a way that made Clayton's mom feel so prideful about her son. Rachel's the only one who has really taken the time to explain why she feels the way

She does about her son including clayton for all the I love yous that clayton's throwing around like they're just like t-shirts at a Basketball game at a halftime show be like hey, why don't I love you? I got one for you Not once has he articulated to any of these women what he loves about them not once and I understand it's the bachelor but like when you It's one thing to like watch a bachelor or bachelorette go on a one-on-one and the next day go to another one-on-one or on a group date have these like conversations but like during this rose ceremony from hell like the fact that he was going back and forth and just being like no but i love you and then like and he was fighting with both

of these women fighting you know what i'm saying like having these like intense conversations with both these women at the same time just kind of going back and forth all while saying i love you to both of them and we've never seen anything like that i don't think so just like so kind of flippantly like going back and forth like having these like trying to convince both these women to stay all while like he was, he was using I love you. It's not, it's definitely not love bombing because he, but he was very much using the word in a way that was like a tool. You know what I'm saying?

Like make them feel more secure than they actually are. But I believe that he believed that he, you know what I'm saying? Like I make them feel more secure than they actually are. But I believe that he believed that he, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't think he was doing, like, he, I think he thinks that, that feeling. I think he's very much confused his connections and chemistry with love. He's probably confusing love and lust. Sure. Because he's probably, like, I mean, I don't think that. But, like, I think it's more of a connection.

Yeah, no, exactly. I think, like, I don't want to, like, deny the fact that he's in love with all three of them. Like, I think. I do. Really. And the construct of this show, like, every time he says, the fact that he said, I love Susie the most, he should be able to recognize to himself, I like all these women. I respect all these women. I have chemistry with all these women but i have stronger feelings for suzy i must love her yeah and i like these people i i care for them i i love them as people but in love uh you know what i'm saying like yeah you know he's he's like playing games with semantics with himself i you know in a sense that like it's his it's the job of the

bachelor and that's one thing if he's taking this job so literally to like figure out who he does in fact like the most yeah so just clinton replace love with like you know it's like i've never seen and decide to like hold the word love for the person you decide is the last person standing I don't know it was such a contrast for me like because I ended up watching Matt James season late in the game and then when I watched it he only said I think he said to Rachel on that season where he was like oh like I think I'm falling in love with you or whatever. But he, like, really steered away from it. And then we go into this season and I'm watching it and he's just, like, dropping L-bombs. I don't know.

Yeah, I think Matt James is a perfect example where he was very careful with his words. Yeah. You could, like, it's just insane to me that you get to that point and show no empathy for the people you're clearly putting through when you're the lead you know that you're kind of emotionally torturing people and that is the part you unfortunately sign up for and as the lead i know i did and i think a lot of people before me like the stress i felt was the awareness of i I knew that I was going to hurt people. Right. Like, and I was very careful about the words I said, because I was just like, I just, I, when I, when I break up with Rachel, when I break up with, with Raven, yeah, I'm probably like, I feel bad, but it's all going to make sense to them. Like, you know what

I'm saying? Like, they're not going to be like, but why did he say this? And why did he say that? I didn't say anything that they couldn't like be like, yeah, but he wouldn't have said this if he was going to pick someone else. And honestly, because it had happened to me. So I was like, I was going to be very careful. And Matt James is another example of like,

he was very deliberate. And Matt James had even less experience than Clayton had. So like I think it comes down to some people are better at empathizing and more considerate and don't take advantage of the situations they get put in. Like it's just recognizing the power dynamic that you have. In every relationship, there are moments where you feel a little more confident than your partner and if you or feel a little bit more in power or more in control and some people like weaponize that and some people like want to maintain an even playing field with their partner and always take the time to like you know put themselves in their

shoes and empathize and say let me let me just try to think where you're coming from and Clayton's just it's not registering with him like at all hate to take a left turn here but um I find it so funny that they kept in the brother telling Rachel that his parents want to buy an Airbnb. He said Airbnb twice. Yeah. Like, did Airbnb pay for everything this episode? Because they said it twice.

And then who was it? Was it Rachel or Gabby's date? And she's like, this is beautiful. And he goes, my parents found it on Airbnb. Was it the same brother? Who cares? They were both spokespeople for it. No, but my guess is that they thought they were being funny, the it no but what my guess is is that they thought they were being funny the brothers like oh this is going to be a joke and the bat sure loves to

pretend that like i don't know why they do this but they love to pretend that like these family like get on the flights on their own and book their like you know like this organic well i guess they used to do this come see you guys like yeah they used they used to pretend that the lead would set up the dates they would almost they stopped doing that but like the they would almost they used to have the lead say things like well i have a really great date plan for you and sometimes they they do that too where they would have like alumni show up and like i think it was like uh i remember when they, like, host an obstacle course a couple seasons ago. And, like, they made Ben go, it was for Matt James' season.

It was like, I planned a really good date for you. It's like, no, you didn't. And I don't know why they do that. And I think they, for some reason, they love that. So my guess is the brother thought he was being funny. And sometimes when you're like you have one joke planned you just kind of keep repeating it until you get the laugh that you want and he said it twice and i think the show was like perfect this is great like he's literally saying you know we'll

just make it seem like they had to get an airbnb that's my guess i don't know. I think. But back to Clayton's mom. I think Rachel made Clayton's mom feel very good about her son. And I think it was right after Rachel was like, this is why your son is so amazing and how much I love him. And Rachel, I think, made Clayton's mom think that, like, this woman is going to really love my son. And then she was like, yeah i think it's just really telling that you stayed you know like i think at that point she kind of low-key threw gabby under the bus i don't think she was trying to but i think she you could tell like clayton's mom was like

this is who my son should pick for sure she obviously didn't like the fact that Susie walked away. And then she, I mean, Gabby walking away as well. I think she just is not a fan of anyone who could almost give up her son. Because they were really pushing back during, I mean, at the very end of the episode. Because he was trying to explain, like, what this big thing was. And they were like, no, she walked away. She is done. Let it go. And he was like, you weren't there, mom.

Interestingly enough, I kind of understood what clayton was saying because i just wish clayton would have been like yeah but mom i was an asshole to her then that's what he was kind of trying to say is that because at the end of the day clayton sent suzy home even though suzy walked out and yeah maybe Susie would have ended up leaving that's entirely possible but we don't entirely know like Susie walked out Clayton walked out got no good advice from Jesse Palmer and then flipped a switch and was this kind of like you've changed get the hell out of here yeah and i think that's what clayton was trying to articulate to his parents without just saying can i be honest i was an asshole to her and if i were in her shoes after thinking it back i would have left too it's

that whole thing that's like i may forgive you but my mom won't yeah like once you tell your mom some fight that you and your boyfriend had or something, she will never forgive them. Yeah. Let's go back to the rose ceremony of hell. Rose ceremony of hell. Quick circle back. The amount of crying audio that we heard throughout the entire rose ceremony. I was like, whoa. No, I'm pretty sure it was the same clip of Rachel.

A couple sobs that they just had on a loop. I'm pretty sure it was the same clip of Rachel, a couple sobs that they just had on a loop. It's entirely possible that it was edited. Right. No, because he said, maybe turned up, but he was like, I'm sitting here listening to them both cry. He definitely heard them. So I think it's a combination of he definitely heard them. Like, you could hear him in the distance, but, like, for they were just like turn up that but like he when jesse jesse comes down from the stairs and he does this thing that guys all do

when they're wearing a really good watch you kind of like jerk out your arm like that and kind of like goes down so like the shirt comes up and the watch comes out and jesse does that and kind of like fixes his suit he's walking down the steps and just goes wow that was like that was crazy and while they're talking gabby was iconic this episode and then it's more more of the same going forward gabby was absolutely iconic and when she walks past jesse and clayton having a conversation it was just i also think like again i don't think that's jesse's fault but what a bad time to like have have a catch-up like and again i don't know if that's i don't know if that's on clayton because I think Clayton is a tough spot there. He just is awkwardly standing there. Because it would have been like,

hey, we all crucified Ari when he broke up with Becca for not giving Becca the space to just let her cry. And Ari kept following her and being like, are you okay? It came across as very, just kind of nuts. So like, I am like. But there's also two of them. So whoever he goes to comfort first, it's the same thing as the rose. That's a huge sign right there. Who does he chase? No, I know. So what I'm saying is I understand that he's standing there, but so they have Jesse

come down and it's just like a weird debrief. it's just a weird time to like have like a debrief on all while offering absolutely no guidance like whatsoever wow that was that was a lot how do you feel damn that sucks basically like rachel sobbing missing a nail is me so bad i was like it's just and it's the middle finger too I was like you poor lady it happens to the best of us it really does if you lose a press on you're done

yeah that was also just like such raw footage on the show like I think that was when we talked so much about like the difference between like bachelor world

versus real world like watching the way that Rachel was upset was like so like anchored it for me in like real human emotion like I was like I can't breathe

I'm like I know that feeling yeah she undid her thing I was like oh my gosh she also i mean this is totally random side note but when she was sobbing and her makeup was staying on i was like i want to know what you're using amen she's like bawling her eyes out and she's like tapping away and she still looks beautiful i was like what is going on? I also, going back to, you know, Rose Harry, My Friend from Hell. When he asked Gabby, you know, will you accept this rose? I thought, as you were saying, Gabby's just been iconic.

I don't know why, but I just thought it was so funny how she walks up. And she basically was like, no, I can't. Like just so straight faced was like, he's like, do you accept this or she goes, like, no. She's been straight-faced, I think, the entire season. She's a very monotone woman. And I kind of like that about her. Yeah, except that this episode, you got to see full on. When Clayton comes out and he goes,

this is not going to be easy to say. Like, Gabby knows and her face goes. Oh, my gosh. Like, Gabby knows, and her face goes... Oh, my gosh. Like, her facial expressions this episode have been absolute dynamite. When Gabby was talking to Clayton, I love that Gabby very calmly said... She, like, recognized that, like, well, Susie's not here, and knowing what I know now,

I find that very concerning about why Susie's not here. And knowing what I know now, I find that very concerning about why Susie isn't here. You know, like you recognize that Gabby could tell that like it was unclear whether Susie sent herself home or it's like, I think you could tell that Gabby's trying to get to the bottom of if Clayton in fact loves Susie the most. And it was really funny because she was like, tell me what happened last night. She was like, Susie's not here, so I'm just going off of your word.

They had this little whatever. And then he was like, yeah. So she asked me if I had been intimate with either of you. And she was like, we don't need all the details. Yeah, we don't need all that. She was like, you don't need to go into the details. Because, like, yeah, she didn't give a fuck about that what she wanted you could tell she wanted to know but regardless of who Clayton ends up with if any of them I want to know what Gabby and Rachel what they were thinking watching this back knowing that he said I love you the most

to Susie because like you know this is one of those cases you i think gabby is going to and every has every right to be if if clayton doesn't end up with gabby because you know you know when you want to trust your gut and then someone else convinces you not to trust your gut and if he doesn't end up with gabby and he and gabby watches it back only to watch Clayton say to Susie, I love you the most. When Gabby, like, you could tell she sensed that. And that's why she was like, I find it very concerning that Susie's not here and tell me what happened. And he still failed to, like, mention that.

He was like, no, no, no, I fucked him. I had sex with both of you. He's just like, I don't care. But, sex with both of you you know like he's just like i don't care but like yeah i get that part but like why is she not here and is it because you know like she expected that she was the winner you know like is that what was going on and and then clayton convinces gabby to stay and it's a like, to know that you had that intuition that was right and then she tried to take her power back and you had another person convince you otherwise,

very few things make us, I think, more mad. And I think Gabby has every right to be furious and even feel more furious. You know what I'm saying? Because if he doesn't end up with Gabby, it was like she had this moment or this chance to say, I knew the right thing to do

and I chose differently because of the things that you tried to convince me of. And I think that's where Clayton gets himself in the biggest trouble. And it's also like, why it feels like he's not learning because it's like what's going to happen here?

Like you've already got three women incredibly like hurt and upset because you overplayed, you over expressed, like you over promised, under delivered and now you're just like setting yourself up for even more of that because you reconvinced both of them to get their heads back in the game and you're going to disappoint another one again.

Like what? Yeah, that's a great point because the stuff he said, I don't know if it was the Caitlin or Ashley and Ben, I don't get this whole wake up after the night with Gabby, like, what did I do? And you make a good point. With Susie? Or, oh, no, when he was like,

I'm going to hurt people. He was like, oh, I'm going to hurt people. It's like, okay, well, had Clayton had that realization i definitely would have been like like christina said like a little late in the game to like start thinking that yeah but hey at least you're starting at least hey it would have been nice if you would have thought that earlier but at least he's starting and and then try to just focus his feeling his his thought process on like, what this must be like for these women.

And then maybe like do the roast ceremony differently or maybe just be fully transparent. But like instead, it's just such a, or and again, if Gabby goes home, just all right, let her trust her gut, you know? You know what? I also just remembered that I felt so bad for Rachel because she sat at a point when she thought that Gabby was, like, leaving.

She said that she didn't want to be the winner because she was the last one. Like, she wanted to be the winner because he picked her. Yeah. But if Gabby were to leave and then it was only her, then she's like, I would have just won just because I'm,'m like I'm the last one here and that's not fair to me because I want him to choose me because he loves me and not because I'm the last woman that decided not to leave him totally and when when Gabby left the first time no way it was only one time. When Gabby walked away, when Gabby didn't accept Clayton's rose initially, the look on Rachel's face was priceless because you saw her,

like, it's like all these thoughts went through her head. Like, holy shit, did I just win? But, like, do I want to win at this point? Like, what the fuck is going on? Like, I guess it's me. And it was just, like, a whole kind of series of like these crazy and rightfully so thoughts that Rachel must have been having. And again, this is where Gabby was so iconic.

When she comes back, right? It's the opposite of Clayton. Gabby's first thought is to apologize to Rachel. It's to like, it's to put herself in the shoes of rachel Yes, does gabby have a right to be there just as much as rachel, of course It would it be understandable that gabby walked away and then maybe changed her mind a few minutes later and still want to continue sure And so gabby had the choice of either Deciding that she had the right to feel this way

and just have as much like a choice to stay as rachel and not apologize or she could just empathize with rachel and realize that her walking away must have like been so emotional for rachel and then hunker coming back but might be equally as emotional. And Gabby, before she even gets to Rachel, is apologizing to her. And that is the exact opposite of what you're seeing from Clayton through all these decisions. And if all he did was just try to empathize and put himself in those shoes, it would just be going so much better for him. I think Gabby has to be the bachelorette if she's not with Clayton.

Oh, yeah. And I think all three, honestly, all three women have compelling stories at this point. All three would be great. I do think, Rachel, what's really interesting is that, I mean, watching it back, we saw the connection i think we all thought right and let me know if you disagree that that gabby was in last place in terms of the connection at least that's what we saw right do we agree with that so even though

at this point gabby and rachel are you know obviously have both the right to feel what they're feeling i think it's really i think both gabby and relate and rachel are relatable in very different ways like gabby is just like this is insane and i'm it's like gabby is almost admitting that like i didn't really know where i stood with you but you then you told me you loved me and now i allowed myself to believe in us where rachel it seems like she's coming from a point of view of it's always been us babe like you've made me feel like it could only be us and and you like it seems like rachel's heart is truly breaking because Rachel's coming from a point of view, it feels like, where she believes that Clayton loves her the most. And Clayton's just not seeing it properly because he's the bachelor. And it seems like Rachel feels like it's her she needs to fight for the both of them because Clayton's made her believe that their

relationship is so strong and I think that's a very relatable feeling to like be so like to see so clearly the connection you have with someone and feel that love and and empathize again like that's that's Rachel empathizing with Clayton she's empathizing with the fact that Clayton has other women and I know that I, we have this amazing connection. So I'm going to try to like fight for this thing. And she's showing Clayton a little bit more grace and empathy than like, so she's just kind of like, what the fuck are you doing? And which is amazing. Cause like, of course she's saying that. Cause like, what the fuck are you doing? But I think it's really fascinating to see the point of view

with Rachel and Gabby and where they're coming from but both of them are in fact empathizing with Clayton and empathizing with each other and Clayton's just like I'm the bachelor and you guys both what did it say he adjusted he adjusted

adapted I've adapted adapt I think that was a very telling quote he gave Oh, yeah. Adapted. Adapted. I've adapted. Adapt. Clayton, like, that's, I think that was a very telling quote he gave. He expected everyone to adapt, and he did not expect that he should have to empathize with these women. I think, is that, do we have it all? I mean, basically, Susie is still in town. She has not left.

Yeah. So. Yeah. She is still in Iceland. Iceland. As Jessie so yeah she is still in iceland as jesse said yeah she's still here so i don't even know where suzy is and then jesse walks in she's still here but like when when clayton says that like were you all thinking like i was thinking like that's insane like how did you just do what you did introduce both these women to your parents and afterwards say i still i'm still thinking about suzy now that i'm thinking out loud jesse

kind of and his family were both kind of like well what's the problem if you like these other two women but i i get where they're coming from because clayton's is like i'm in love with these other two women and that's where clayton got himself in trouble is by just kind of like stubbornly it's like he's saying he's convincing himself I love these other two women when we all know he loves Susie the most and we just I just keep going back to that because it's just like if why don't you focus on that even though Susie is gone and and ask yourself well what does that mean about my feelings for these other women but I think he stubbornly was just like no I my feelings are valid you know he was like trying to argue with like he in the most insane way that's and that's

why you get such as an insane statement like whoever I pick i love the most that that will be an iconic sentence not in a good way for clayton but like that's an insane it just sounded insane just absolutely utterly insane and it just makes him sound come across as so cruel and reckless when he just introduced both these women to his parents. And he's just like, yeah, my heart's still out there. And he's trying to wax poetic while he says it. My heart is here with these two women, but my heart is also out there with Susie.

Like, that's what you've been saying the whole time. No, we know that. Where was that thought process before you introduced? And it wasn't like his parents were like oh i don't know like it wasn't like he met they met gabby and rachel and they were like so like tell us about the one who didn't we didn't get to meet like those we didn't you know they didn't act like they didn't like those two they liked them both and it was like rachel Clayton's mom was like you should pick Rachel you know like she loved Rachel it was obvious and Clayton was just like you know after seeing you guys with them it's only been 24 hourszy like how how do you

clayton how do you go from asking gabby to fight for you to saying that your heart's still with suzy all while trying to convince rachel andie, you're still confused about your feelings because, like, it's different but similar and same. Like, I love you all, but it's different. But it's the same intensity. I mean, it means the same. Like, my words mean exactly the same, but for different reasons.

But I love Susie the most. Just sounds like he wants options. Like, he knows that he loves Suzy the most, but... He sounds like a fuckboy, yeah. Yeah, of course. He wants, you know, I love Suzy the most, but just in case, I got Rachel and Gabby, who I also love, but not as much,

because I love Suzy the most. It's like... A well-intentioned fuckboy. Yeah. Who's still a fuckboy. How do we think it's going to end? Dirty. Chaos.

Yeah. Bloodshed. Dirty. Yeah, I don't know. Nasty. Disgusting. Christina? Yeah, no, I want to...

Give me a prediction. You know what? We're like, oh, if Gabby doesn't get picked, that's going to be really messy. I don't think... I don't think Gabby's going to get picked. I don't think Gabby's going to get picked. I don't think Gabby's going to get picked either. I think it's going to be

Susie or Rachel, and I feel like Susie is probably still involved enough that if, you know, Clayton goes to her and, like, words it right and, like, wins his way back in and they have this, like,

you know, connection or whatever, that he'll end up, I don't know, pursuing her. Well, because that's the big question. We know, like, Jessie comes in and leaves it on a cliff, connection or whatever that he'll end up i don't know because that's that's the big question we know like jesse comes in and leaves it on a cliff like oh suzy's here so we know suzy is like gonna be a part of tomorrow's episode yeah and it seems like clay clayton wants to now fight for suzy yeah so the big question is do we think suzy is going to take him back take him back or reconsider her point of view?

And then if she does, how does he handle it? Like, are we back to three? Do they have a rose ceremony and bring out? Could you imagine? Oh, my God, that would be terrible. Rose, and, like, all of a sudden Susie comes out and he just, like, hands a rose. He picks out three engagement rings.

He's going to propose in front of all three of them. Could you imagine rose ceremony? Rachel, Gabby, they both think they're the only ones left after meeting his parents. Gabby comes out. Rachel comes out. They think Clayton's about to come out.

And then Susie comes out. And then Susie gets the first rose. But it wouldn't be a rose ceremony because they're already down to two, so they would just be ready for proposals. That's true. But do you think he's going to actually propose? I don't know. I feel like he's going to pull one of those, let's see how it goes.

No, I think Clayton's locked into being the bachelor, and the bachelor proposes. Yeah, but, well, maybe he is, but I just can't see Susie saying, like. Well, if he has the opportunity, I think he will. But he said he wouldn't propose to someone if he hadn't fucked him. So it can't be Susie then. So it can't be Susie. I thought about that.

Oh, it's interesting. Unless something happens. Up in the air. I totally get the logic, but it's such a weird thing to be like, sorry, we're going to have to fuck first. They bring the ring in the box to the room. They're like, maybe, depending how it goes.

Well, tomorrow's even more nuts. We will find out what happens i guess uh christina thank you so much for joining us yes thanks for having me this was great uh what a pleasure please let my audience know where they can follow you and listen to all your other stuff yeah uh you could check me out on my personal socials at BeautyChicky and my podcast, Gin and Toxic. Yes. BeautyChicky? How do you spell BeautyChicky?

It's BeautyChicky, but Chicky is a double E instead of a Y at the end. See? Yes. Glad I asked because I might be searching for BeautyChicky. Right. You never know. Not that I can spell. Natalie, where can people find you? Natalie Joy, two N's and two J's.

There you go. Well, thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget, we are back after. It won't come up quite as soon because we have to see what they say at AFR. So we will be with Allie Barthwell right after AFR. It will be up in the middle of the night, hopefully. By the time you wake up, there hopefully will be a recap with Allie Barthwell to break it all down,

and an interview with Rachel, Susie, or Gabby. And it's going to be wild with whoever it is. Bye. you