The Viall Files - E395 Final Rose From Hell with Ali Barthwell

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

Today we are joined by Vulture Writer, Emmy Award Winner, and Bach Recap Fan Favorite, Ali Barthwell, to break down the ending of this scandalous and chaotic season of The Bachelor. On this episode of Bachelor Recap we talk about the explosive Bachelor Finale! We dive into how Clayton’s apologies show his immaturity, Gabby standing up for herself, and how Rachel was led to believe she was the one. We also talk about what Susie must have seen in Clayton to choose to take him back, how she’ll have to make a PR campaign to fight off any questions she gets, and where Clayton needs to grow. We also talk about the next season of The Bachelorette and how the show will work with two women as leads and how they work together to find love in the next chapter.  “He mansplained the concept of love to them.”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Bloom Nutrition: Bloom Nutrition is offering our listeners 15% off your purchase of their Greens & Superfoods blend when you go to http://www.BloomNU.com/VIALL Wonderskin: Wonderskin is offering our listeners 20% OFF plus free shipping on orders over $50 when you go to http://www.WonderSkin.com and use our promo code VIALL.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @wtflanksteak See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to maybe the most important bachelor recap episode of all time i don't know we don't we don't know but we have a lot to talk about we have an amazing guest as we've already told you about anticipation the wonderful returning guest emmy award-winning ali barthwell is with us thank you so much in the studio better put that award on my name. I'm just excited. I know an Emmy. I'm really saying it for me. You want the clout.

I have an Emmy winning guest on my Bachelor Recap. It's a selfish thing. We have obviously a lot to cover. Maybe we should just all take a drink first. You don't have to tell me twice i don't know what time of day cheers uh we have two bettretts simultaneously we have suzy and clayton together not engaged just so you guys know suzy will be our guest obviously Obviously, they call an audible. I think they were going to give us Rachel.

I probably will never know. Someday I'll know. But what I know is that, because I promised my audience, we're going to get the most upset guest. Right. I didn't lie. Only because, not only Rachel and Gabby are upset anymore. No. They're very pleased.

They seem very pleased. So I was kind of getting mixed reports from the producers. They're like, just be patient. So we're getting Susie, not with Clayton. We're getting the exclusive with Susie. So I think Clayton and Susie are doing an interview together somewhere else, whatever. We're rooting for them. We're rooting for them. We're happy for them.

We're not trying to. But there's a lot of questions we have for Susie. We love Susie. I don't know what they're going to talk about in a happy couple, but we want to get Susie's point of view. A couple questions I want to know, knowing how this works. Did Susie watch AFR? And by AFR, is Susie aware of the things that Rachel and Gabby said to Clayton?

Specifically Rachel. Yes. Especially the questions about, did you tell me you love me just to have sex with me? And even more so that we were just kind of unhinged about was the fact that clayton told rachel that he had never said i love you to anyone in like six years and we kind of all agreed that when we didn't think it could get worse for clayton it it got so much worse i mean if nothing else it just kind of exemplified how he was so reckless you know with these women's hearts

and I think that really drove the nail in in terms of how reckless he was because to say something like that and I think you know we were talking about it as we were watching of this idea that Clayton has kind of just been doing what he can to keep things going.

He doesn't want the fun to end. He's getting lots of smooches from hot ladies. He wants to get to the end of this and he wants to get it right. He wants to win the prize. And so you have to look at all of his choices now kind of through, for me, I'm looking at them through that lens. And it feels like he was somebody who was like, emotionally running up a credit card, and then the bill would come due. And he goes,

ah, fuck, I got to keep these two around just a little longer. Let me say I love you. Let me say I love you. Then I haven't said in six years, let me run after you in Iceland and tell you I love you the most. But he just just it seemed like he just didn't want the experience to end and so whatever he could say to make the experience keep going was what he did and then you're at the end and you've run up all this debt and there's nowhere else to turn and I think that was his experience on After the Final Rose with Rachel and Gabby, they were two debt collectors that were coming to collect. And they were getting money or a leg or they were getting their pound of flesh and they didn't care how they got it. They got it all. They got everything.

They took his house. They took his car. Yeah. I mean, I guess it ended as well as it could. Clayton deserved everything he got. Now, I don't think Clayton's a bad guy. I think he looked contrite and actually apologetic. He looked like he was hurting. He looked like he understood that he hurt them. hurting, he looked like he understood that he hurt them. Yes. Do I think he understood how and why he hurt them? Like what his actions actually were?

Because it sort of seemed to me that a lot of the apologies were, I'm sorry you felt that way and not, I'm sorry I caused you to feel that way or I'm sorry I caused you to feel that way and here's why and here's exactly like what I did to make that happen yeah that last part he definitely didn't do I because I think he did say I'm sorry I did that to you yeah Clayton's been through a lot and we I know a lot of people think he deserves he does deserve the criticism from Gabby and Rachel yes there's so much another layer of vaccination and what they say. And, you know, like, I worry for people who get the harassment that some people get from batronation. So, like, I don't wish that on anyone.

But you made a good point, too, is that the fact that he is now with Susie, I do think it's going to stunt his growth. And you made that good point that, like, now that he got Susie back, I think it's going to stunt his growth. And you made that good point that like, now that he got Susie back, I think he's going to stop growing. I think he'll stop challenging himself to look within. And now that he has Susie, it will affirm that he, you know,

did everything right. And I'm worried that he's going to think, listen, I hurt some people and I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, I got it right. And I also think that is what is going to stunt his apologies to Gabby and Rachel. Because all along, I've been looking at Clayton as he's sort of treating these women as meeples in a very complicated Euro worker placement board game.

Where he's just trying to get enough love resources to make it to the win condition. That's for all my board game where he's just trying to like get enough love resources to make it to the like win condition that's for all my like board game nerds out there I'm seeing different different reactions in the room uh but I think now that he has won Susie back and is with Susie the amount of contrition he needs to show or should show to Gabby and Rachel is also going to reach a limit because they were the stumbling blocks in his love story to Susie. And now that he's gotten Susie, what happened with Rachel and Gabby is justified in, like, because he got to the end. Well, yeah, even when you think about it, too, like, if he really wants to make this, and I assume he does, relationship work with Susie,

in fairness to the relationship with Susie, there's only so much, like, like, reflection about his relationships with Rachel and Gabby would, that would be appropriate, almost, if you're, from Susie's point of view, right? Yeah. Because you're just like, hey, how much are you gonna be, like, worried?

You know, like... There's only so many coffees you can get with your ex to rehash your relationship before your current partner is like, there's something else here. What about this? Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we just, and what we watch is quite honestly a very relatable experience. I, you know, and I've talked about this more on our ask nick stuff my first girlfriend on and off for seven years the only reason i ever got the guts to finally end the

relationship is because i met someone else and i went from breaking up with her to having a new girlfriend in 24 hours yeah incredibly immature and that people do it all the time and it i and i to this day i it was a weird feeling because that next girlfriend ended up cheating on me a year and a half later and whatever. When that relationship ended, I was heartbroken and, and my ego was bruised because, you know, I, we were engaged and I finally cheated on me. I was crushed. But then I had this kind of weird epiphany of like, I finally felt that I was actually over the first one. Yes.

Because I was so focused on this pain that I really was, and while I was dating the second girlfriend, there was, I just, you know, you always catch yourself wondering, thinking about them. I was processing the, I was processing seven years. Now this is like different, but like, there's just so much for Clayton to process. I can relate to that in another way. I was dating someone for a long time like my first relationship we were in

college together you know saying all the things that you say when you're in college and you think you're gonna end up together and I he cheated on me we broke up we were together for a really long time and then I dated somebody else after that and that person broke up with me because they revealed that they had cheated and then that person came and said I want you to take me back. Like, I want to give this another shot. And I took that person back because I was trying to fix the last relationship. Let's see what would have happened if I took my college boyfriend back or like, can this work?

And it didn't work out. We're no longer together. It was worse the second time. And so I look at what Rachel and Gabby went through. They both had that moment of, I'm going to take Clayton back after he revealed information that would be breakup-worthy in any other context. I'm going to take him back.

I'm going to be convinced to take him back. And then it was worse the second time around the second breakup time around because you have all those someone telling you that they're going to change is even better than someone telling you like for the first time that they like you yeah because they're going to change for you they're going to change right you're special this relationship is special. We have this connection. So for Clayton to break up again with Gabby and Rachel is even worse than telling them at the rose ceremony from hell that he had sex with everybody. Oh, yeah. It was so much worse. And Gabby nailed it, right?

I think they both kind of references. And we talk, it, right? I think they, well, they both kind of references. And we talk obviously about the show. I try to give as much behind the scenes as I can. And a lot of has been discussed about producers involvement first. You know, we, I think the best defense for Clayton is that they had no business casting him in the first place. Yes. He's in over his head. He's not mature enough. And I don't say this to be cruel. I said this last episode, he has a lot of growing up to do.

And the question with producers is, we posed this yesterday, and I'd love to get your take, because it's like, which one do you want? Do you want the producers to like stay out of it and and so when when cast say when cast when things don't go away at the forecast there's always like other producers made me do it yeah so do you want them to stay out of it or do you want the producers to guide casts the way they think they should be molded right so like but what i think is happening is they're not guiding casts being like we're they're not clearing the pathway for the correct decision the producers are trying to produce an

episode of television sure they do not care what happens to your relationship as long as they can produce a fun episode of television and so you know for a lead to think these people have my best interest at heart you know it's a very cynical thought to be like they're just producing me for an episode of television. But that's what that's how the system works. That's what's going on. you almost want to see the tension of the lead pushing up against production because then you get the sense of like this person wanted to do the right thing and production kind of guided them over. And I think with Clayton,

there's no tension between what he wanted to do and what production wanted him to do. Exactly. Well, there is that. I will say, though, we were there yesterday. I was there, Natalie and I. And I talked to Jesse, nicest guy, by the way. Jesse's a really nice

guy. I mean, it was, I still think if they want him to host, have him host and stop having him sit down and be a mentor if you're not going to have him be a mentor. Hey, brother, things look crazy out there. Hope you figure it out. Bye-bye. I mean, it's hysterical. Like it's almost a funny thing, but nicest guy ever. And talking to him

and some of the producers and, you know, I've gotten to talk to Clayton a little bit and all I'll say is, and this is maybe youth and experience, a little bit of hubris and thinking, you know, I'm not stupid or I'm not dumb or thinking you have it all figured out. You know, that's for me being in the 25 range age range. It's like, you're smart enough just to get yourself in trouble because you don't have enough to get yourself out. Correct. Well, cause you don't have that kind of, you know, humility to just say, I don't know everything, you know, because you're just comparing what you know at 25 to what you didn't know at 18.

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Go to bloomnu.com slash V-I-A-L-L for 15% off. Watching Clayton, I don't even think it is he thinks he knows what's right. He thinks he can handle it. I said yesterday in the recap I did for Vulture of like, he wants to prove that he is smart and he is capable and that he is desirable. And I think a lot of the leads that end up as the lead without having gone through at least hometowns or fantasy suites, they come in wanting to prove something about themselves or about how they can navigate the process. And that gets in the way just as much of hubris or ego. And so I think it's not even a place of like this huge ego from Clayton, but just this idea of like, I'm going to do this right.

I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to show everybody I'm a good, smart boy with a big brain. And like it did not go the way he wanted, because he was moving from a self-centered agenda, rather than like an emotional agenda of like, I'm going to find the person I want to be with, I'm going to have this deep connection. And so you end up that he's serving this other third goal over here and decimating everybody else's feelings along the way because he's trying to satisfy some question mark within himself. And I think, you know, Katie on her season, it was, I want to prove I'm the most level-headed, intelligent, reasonable bachelorette. And it led to her

having a series of meltdowns when things didn't go her way or she couldn't logic her way out of a situation. I think Matt James had this thing where he wanted to prove he wasn't his father and he wanted to protect his mother and her feelings. So he picked someone that reminded him of his mother and then they had to go through this very awkward public thing where he had to admit that maybe this girl wasn't the, you know, at the moment she was making decisions

that were not healthy for her relationship being with a black man. And so I think Clayton is doing the same thing where he wants to prove that he is desirable, that he can win, that he himself is a prize to be won. And I think it's ending up, it ended up with what we saw, that he was doing everything he can to keep the game going because like any football player knows, like as long as there's time on the clock, you can still win the game. You don't care if there's a second left on the clock, you can throw a Hail Mary. We said this yesterday, he approaches the bachelor, like he kind of, you can kind of see it like he would a football game where it's just like, I just need one more yard, just kind of muscle through everything. My understanding is that he, these, many of these choices were very much his.

And they might not have gotten in his way. But he was like, these are the things I want to do. And he did them. Now, we might hear differently when he writes a tell-all two months later. But my understanding, and again, my experience of talking to Clayton, he seems like a well-intentioned, nice guy, but he seems like someone who, it's like his earnestness and his belief in himself

that he wants to do the right thing is the thing that gets him in trouble because you can have the best intentions, as we've seen, and be reckless with people's hearts intentions as we've seen and be reckless with people's hearts. If you, as we talked about yesterday over and over, if you choose not to like put yourself in other people's shoes and empathize and, and he just took the, it's, he took the bachelor, being the bachelor so literally like a game or it was just like, he, and I, I, one thing I'd want to ask him that it

seems unanswered is did you really honestly think about like life outside of The Bachelor or like whoever you thought you're going to end up with it sure it does it did not seem like at any moment you gave any thought to that that something that's been very hard watching the whole season is he's not able, he has not been able to articulate either about the other women or about their connection, who they are as people. Not once.

It is about how each of them make him feel or him feeling accomplished that he can identify or explain something about them. So it's always, Gabby makes me laugh. I have fun when I'm with Gabby, not Gabby has this sense of joy and freedom and I see her with other people and I see the joy she brings other people

and I want to be a part of that or... I don't even think, I don't even remember hearing him say how they made him feel. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. He just said i love you you know it's all yeah there was no articulation whether it was about his feelings or even about

them it was just he just used the word is like something to say it was like a currency but you know yeah i think throughout the whole season he was able to sort of be like i have chemistry with rachel suzy would and the undercurrent i think of a lot of with suzy is like suzy's the right choice i would look good with suzy like that makes sense to me and gabby makes me laugh and i have fun with her i i think if you go back and look he is able to articulate how they make him feel but he's not able to sort of talk about them as if they are independent people with independent lives. Because you do see that moment on these seasons where they go, like on Hometowns, like, what would this day be like for us? That we're going to get a dog and we're going to go to this farmer's market.

It was just like, these are the activities for today. And then I go home. And then that's all. Bye-bye. was just like these are the activities for today and then i go home and then that's all my butt like it's not about who these people are that they have a life that he is also stepping into it's just this exists for me to to be shuttled through and have these women and i interact with me and that's enough you know and even when you him, and this is a little bit about last night's episode, but seeing him say to each, to Gabby and Rachel, he said the same thing to each of them at various points to get them to stay. We just have to take it day by day.

We have to take it step by step. I've never felt this way with anybody. So you have to stay. And not, I can't lose you. I need you to stay. Yeah. Sort of a thing. And that was the toughest part.

you, I need you to stay. Sort of a thing. And that was the toughest part because in real time not many days went by. Because sometimes when you watch it, you're just like, yeah, but it's not what you think. It's not like the very next day we actually had to get on a plane, etc, etc, and all those things. But at that stage, it was maybe tops from the time he begged Gabby to stay and told, you know, he didn't have to beg Rachel. But that rose ceremony from hell from the time he broke up with them was maybe 48 hours. If we're being super generous, 72 hours.

Because he met, there was probably a day in between. Gabby met his parents one day. Rachel met his parents the next day. Yeah, so like maybe three days, maybe. So like in three days, he went from, I'm earnestly in love with both of you. I don't know how to explain it, but I just am. I've gathered you all to this conference room to let you know that there are no longer resources for this company to stay afloat. And both of you are being let go. He like up in the air, those relationships.

He brought in the, like, yeah, the people like you bring, you know, the security is waiting, like escort you out. Your banker's box is already ready. I've cleared out your desk. Thank you for your time with the company. When he used the word therefore to Gabby to try to explain to Gabby about love. Yes. I don't want to be piling on the guy because I think he is well-intentioned. I really hope he learns from this. But that was, I think that spoke to his lack of awareness for how much he abused the position of being the bachelor.

Yeah. You want in that moment when your partner is breaking up with you or someone even you thought was your partner is breaking up with you. You want them to let you down gently, create a nice soft place for you to have those feelings, or have the decency to just get the fuck out of there. And Clayton's method of choice, especially with Gabby, was to mansplain the concept of love to someone and then be like, thank you so much for your service. Bye bye. Can I walk you out? And it's like, I understand that there are these idioms and phrases and conventions of the show.

But that's the thing. They don't make you say that shit. You know what I'm saying? But this is a moment where. That's him saying like he can't disconnect. You want him to have a real human. Yes. Emotional, romantic moment because there are breakups that are romantic in their pain and

their separation and you wanted him to have a moment of like i'm so i can't believe this is happening but this is what has to happen goodbye and instead he said can i walk you out and gabby just going no no that was iconic i was one of the more iconic moments in the history of the show for me. And I said this before, that is the difference. And that's why I'm hopeful for, you know, a season, obviously we'll get into the discussion of Rachel and Gabby as co-bachelorettes, but Gabby hadn't even been the bachelor or the bachelorette rather, you know what I'm saying? She didn't presume this role. I'm sure she's watched it.

But in that moment, Gabby was just a human being dealing with real human feelings of her heart being crushed. And she wasn't worried about, am I allowed to say this? And I can't say this. And I've met plenty of people on this show where you're just like, what the fuck are you doing? Because they talk in bachelor lingo. Yes. And it's just fucking weird. It's like, you can just tell they're just out of what they think they should say playbook.

Yeah, they're like, when in Rome. Very much so. At this part in the season, you would hope that there is the depth of feeling that the lead would have for the contestants, that they can just sort of be like, hey, I got to talk to you like a person for a second because I'm tired of wearing my bachelor skin suit. So like, can I just be a blah blah goo in front of you? And Clayton doesn't have that thing.

He never did that. Unless he's telling Rachel, you're the first person I said I love you to in six years. Like that's, I think, one of the few moments that feels like deviating, having like real world meaning behind those words. But I want to know if he. Like, we have so many questions. Has he told Gabby that? Yeah. Has he told Susie that?

Like, what was he saying to Gabby in the fantasy suite? Because if that's the level of like emotional whatever he's like digging through to get there, he's saying that to everyone. When I heard Rachel say that, my first thought was he told that to everyone. At some point, he told that to everyone in the final three. Well, he didn't have a fantasy suit with Susie, so we won't be able to ask her what he said to her. And that was one thing I wanted to ask Rachel, and hopefully I'll get a chance someday to ask her. What else did you guys talk about? It might be outdated by the I'll get a chance someday to ask her is like, what else did you guys talk about? It might be outdated by the time I get a chance to talk about,

but like if, when I thought we might be interviewing Rachel, which is, I can only imagine because you know, so much, so many people talk about the sex and the fantasy suite, but like you really spend most of your time, even if you do hook up talking, it really, that's how, how people take advantage of that time. And you really, and if he said that, I, I I'm sure Rachel could probably write a whole book on what Clayton said. Well, I think it's,

to me, it's like, if he's willing to say that to her, he's willing to say that or something equivalent to everyone. So even if he didn't say to Gabby, I love you and I haven't felt this kind of love in six years he said something equally intense to make her stick around and he was banking on her remembering that so that

she would stick around from the rose ceremony to hell that she would go meet his parents can I know this is what but can you imagine going to meet someone's parents after having that emotional, like, I'm about to leave, but now I got to go meet your mom and give her a bottle of wine? Which, again, is another moment of like, don't have anybody meet your parents. When you have them meet your parents, you think that it's more emotional than it is. Are you talking about Gabby or Susie or Rachel? Because that was all awkward. emotional. Are you talking about Gabby or Susie or Rachel? Cause that was all awkward. If Clayton should have been like, nobody can meet my parents because we all fucked up. Everything's upside down. We're all going to go to like a group therapy in Iceland. Mom and dad are off the menu.

Mom and dad are off the menu because I've met, I've had, you know, my older brother, uh, was, he went through a period where he was dating a lot of people, and he would introduce the girls to me and my boyfriend, and some of the women would think, ooh, I must be in the inner circle because I'm meeting his sister, and sit with me and be like, hey, girlfriend, let's gab. And I was like, I'm so sorry. You're the third Angela I've met this month. I don't know what's happening here.

And so, again, it's like, Clayton, just tell them we're not meeting my parents. I got to do right by these women and having my parents meet them is not going to answer another question. It's just going to, it's just going to make it worse. Yeah. I mean, you're right. But unfortunately, like I, that one, I won't put on, on Clayton to like completely change the format yeah he doesn't have that say you know what i'm saying like there's just little things knowing that world where i'm just like break you know him breaking up with rachel and the group breakup yes who said that was that gabby that was rachel that was rachel yeah. Iconic for Rachel. That phrase should not exist. Group breakup?

Group breakup. Never. The two on none? Is that what we're doing? A two on none day? It's just, and so that is a moment where even if the producer's like, hey, so like. You got to break up with both of them. You got to break up with both of them.

They're both here. They're both here. I know I wouldn't have. And that's the thing. Many're both here. They're both here. I know I wouldn't have. And that's the thing. Many, many leads, most leads, every lead I've ever talked to pushes back on some level saying, I'm not doing that. Or can we do, and in my experience with working with them, they, they do reason with you. And most of the time they do look out for you to find love. I mean, they've given me a lot of good advice. They mean, they've given me a lot of good advice.

They've given me bad advice. They've also given me good advice where I was like, yeah, thank you for not letting me, you know, like I see how on a, like in this world that, okay, I missed that. And so like I judge Clayton, I blame Clayton for that, not the show. Not, yeah. For breaking up these women because at any point it can be like

that's not okay I can't do that like I need even if they make you do that find a way to give each person their individual moment

not out of obligation of like oh well Gabby left and I got more stuff in the script I have to say let me go find like

I don't think they had to make them at all I don't even think it was their idea because it's the way he the way he did it was just kind of like i just wanted he just wanted to get it over with it felt like oh yes yes and i have been in that breakup where the person is like i just want to get this over with and then like we can go and i'm like no no no no i make i someone i was dating someone and he got somewhere in his mind that we were having dates, going on romantic dates. It was clear that we were a couple. He was doing cute things for me.

And then like a few weeks in, he was like, I think I just want to be friends with benefits. And I was like, cool. I don't want that. And even more, I'm going to make you have the breakup that you clearly don't want to have with me and then he couldn't do it and I said cool I'm going to give you homework I gave this gentleman homework I said I'm going to go out of town for a week when I come back I expect to see an email written

from you giving me the breakup that I deserve to have with as much respect as you believe this relationship deserves. I'm giving you an assignment. I expect to see it in my inbox by Saturday afternoon. Did he? No! And I even sent him a follow-up

being like, just so you know, you're getting an incomplete on your final grade. That's pretty great. And I sent him an email being like, you disrespected. I asked you to do something, and I told you if this was something you wanted to do out of respect for me, you would follow through and you, and do it. And you gave him that you gave him the answers. I gave you the answer to the test. I said, you can bring a cheat

sheet. And I said, you clearly didn't do it. So that tells me about how you view me. In addition with how you thought you could handle this, trying to pivot me into being a friends with benefits after doing all this cute stuff for me. then you know he had his responses after that but you have to make him and i think gabby did a great job of making the case for you have to stop and talk to me like a person and i think rachel did too they did it with different emotional intentions but they both sort of said, stop, I'm a person. I am not just a contestant on this show. You have to treat me like a person and be accountable to me as an adult man. And you can tell Clayton was very uncomfortable having to do

that because he thought he would just get to sit down and be like, thank you for your time. We are, the organization is going in a different direction and, know so and so will take your key card on the way out and he thought he could get away with it yeah and i and it makes me wonder too it's just like i know people uh have said and i i don't i don't think this is a valid excuse uh about like the show should only cast people who have been in the final four because they can relate to this emotional heartbreak. I understand the logic and as

someone who was a runner up twice and both times I was and I sometimes feel ashamed to admit was truly devastated. I wasn't like yeah I know she's not going to pick me. I was fucking crushed and yes as a bachelor it made me it was easier to I wasn't like, yeah, I know she's not going to pick me. I was fucking crushed. And yes, as a Bachelor, it made me, it was easier to empathize for sure.

But you do not have to go through that to be able to empathize with what you're doing and the role you have and the power you have as a Bachelor. And Matt James, he wasn't even on the show. Right. And he didn't, he wasn't this reckless. No. So, I don't buy the excuse that Clayton didn't have an opportunity to be in this position. Now, I do think, because

he wasn't in the final four, that didn't help, you know what I'm saying? I do think that he was short-sighted to say, well, you know, like, I had fun. It was fun for me. They made me the bat shot of it. I didn't have to like... I was eliminated and I was a little uncomfortable, but it was fine. Yeah, I didn't really develop any feelings

and he just assumed that everyone went through the same experience as him. I believe that. Yeah, I believe that, for sure. That just speaks to, again, I just think he just has a lot of growing up to do in terms of recognizing that, you know, the world's not all about him.

I mean, this is a guy who, again, nice family, well intentioned, fine, but he's an athlete. He's probably been the best at most of his athletic things that he's had to do most of his life. And he's still relatively young and being good at sports and being a one percenter in athletic ability and making it all the NFL. It's a lot of social currency. It gets you to your mid-20s pretty easily without any effort whatsoever. And I think that's literally what you're seeing is a guy who's never really had to put much thought into other people around him. Because life's been catered to him up

into this point and you never heard also from Clayton of what that relationship was six years ago that he that was the last time that he had said I love you or what was happening how old is he he's 28 28 okay so there's 22 he was 22 but so you're not even hearing like what his relationship experience has been between then. And he didn't come on to the season being like my experience with Michelle taught me this. So you have to even wonder like what do you think the point of dating is? Like what do you think you're supposed to be getting out of this experience? And again, it's like what answer does he like?

Well, I have to get to the end. And then I'll have a wife. It's like, you can get a wife. People get wives all the time. Do you want to fall in love? Do you want to meet your person? Is there something in your life that hasn't been satisfied by being alone or your friends or your family? And he doesn't really have answers to that because that's not what he's saying to Gabby and Rachel and even to Susie to say I want you back in my life here's this hole that you feel that is missing in mine it's just well I get to the at the end I get a wife I want I said I would get wife and I have no wife where is she she, please? Where wife? Where wife? Yeah. Please tell me where wife.

Looking for wife. Like, I want to do a relationship and have wife. Like, that's not, you don't build a declaration of love on, I just want to do a relationship and have wife. Like that, if, you know, if my boyfriend, when he proposes, if he proposes, if he said, I just want to do a relationship and have wife like that if you know if my boyfriend when he proposes if he proposes if he said i just want wife i'd be like cool bye bye no that's not the proposal and clayton i don't think is able to make that sales pitch to anybody i mean i guess suzy found something in her to get back in that relationship we have questions for suzy but was like, so, because throughout the entire season, he seemed like he was someone who was very in the moment and very present, very focused on the person he was with. And I think

it's that inability to contextualize those interactions and the way they fit into the world as a whole that we're seeing come to bite him. Because he might be like, I'm so laser focused and I love all these women. I'm so in these relationships. But then if you can't apply that when you go back to your hotel room and are thinking about reasonably like what's going to happen next, what's the point of all the chemistry you feel and those fleeting moments? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I bring up me being the bachelor, obviously a lot on the show. Cause it's all I have in terms of my experience.

It's all you have. Yeah. It's all I have. On our bachelor recaps. Yeah. It comes up a lot. And I've said this before. I remember when they first asked me to do The Bachelor.

And I remember being sick to my stomach. And I just kind of was like, I don't really care about money or anything else. I care about the women you cast because I want to find, I want this to work. Yeah. I don't want to do this. I really want this to work. Like, I don't want to do this, you know, like I really want this to work. And every, from night one on, it was all about like, can I try to make this work with somebody? And as soon as I felt a connection with Vanessa, I prioritize that, you know, in that relationship and every decision I made. And I tried to early on figure out, try to lock in because it was like,

then how do I protect this person? And I had a conversation with the producer who's been like, you need to protect her, protect me, and let's make some good TV. And it feels like Clayton, just again, the whole time was just like, he wasn't thinking about, when they asked me the bachelor, I was like, cool, I get to be the bachelor.

I get to meet 30 women. I get to have a night where they all come out of the limo. It's just like, he just kind of enjoyed being the bachelor. I didn't enjoy a moment of being the bachelor at all. I really didn't. I had no fun whatsoever. It was like, I just tried to get through being the bachelor. Yeah, I think it's

just inexperienced and i think there was that moment too where we were watching when they were teasing like the woman who comes out that is with clayton is going to shock and surprise you and we had a feeling based on what was happening so far that it was probably going to be suzy but there was a moment we were sitting here we're like what if it's teddy what if it's shanae what if it's serene because her brother was there her brother was there what if it's teddy what if it's shanae what if it's serene because her brother was there brother was there what if she was there what if she was there like what if it's kira because she you know shot her shot but that feeling of like it could be any of these 30 women that went home before if they came out and said we're together now we made it work would have been like okay okay i guess that's what happened but it doesn doesn't. That's not a good. That's not a good season. If everybody feels like they could have had a shot at the end, like a season where you're like, wow, it's down to these two, it's down to these three. And he really have this feeling that it could be anyone. And whoever it could be is, you know, it's something you wanted to happen, but didn't know you could happen, but feels right. And it should happen. Like, like that's what a good romantic ending feels like when you're sort of going between two or

three people and it on this season and like looking at it as a season of television it's like yeah i guess that was what was gonna happen sure what else is on and that's not as a viewer that's not, as a viewer, that's not emotionally satisfying. That doesn't pay off the promise of the show of we're going to give you this romantic, fun experience. And the story of two people who broke up and came back together could be fun and romantic and sweet, but we didn't. they chose not to show us that they chose not to show in how suzy and clayton talked about their reconciliation it didn't it felt like settled information and not this is a new vibrant interesting thing that we are so excited about we can't stop talking about it and i don't expect every relationship to look the same but watching them together again as a viewer of a piece of television i know they're real people but to me they're imaginary you only became real to me when i walked in today like oh you're a person uh but you watch i watched it as a viewer of television and they wanted to edit together a romantic ending they did more more for Katie and Blake by him having the boombox

and playing their song than they did in delivering a final romantic image for the season. Yeah, but there's only probably so much they could do. They could have dropped rose petals when he handed her the final rose.

I guess. Everybody could have had roses under their seats and thrown them down onto the stage. You do any callback to a date they went on. Literally anything that him and Susie did on the season, you call back that? We need a clock tower.

Do you think we would have wanted to see that? I would have been like, alright, they're giving it to us. At least it's a love story. My favorite moment was when he left the stage and all of a sudden Allie goes, he got her a puppy. He's getting a puppy. That would have been a movie.

That would have been sweet. Susie. It was one rose. It was one rose. He could have gotten her a dozen roses. He could have gotten her a hundred roses. They could have, you know, it's phony, it's fake, but I'm watching a television show about romance that has been edited and

chopped and screwed. Give me the thing I want to see. If you're watching a rom-com and they don't kiss at the end after they've run to the airport to meet each other, it's a bad rom-com. Yeah. Well, they, and that, I think I blame that on the show. I blame it on the show. Yeah.

Because like you said, Clayton is not a romantic guy at all. I'm not saying I'm some Casanova, but like I can dig deep and I've pulled some like romantic shit on that show too. And when he grabbed that rose that we all thought was a puppy or anything else than a rose, he, Clayton was proud of himself. He was excited. He was like, I got something for you. And I'm not trying to beat up on the guy, but I think that's this kind of this, maybe youthfulness or whatever it is, where he thinks that was something. And that was just a beat of the show to be like, well, give her the final rose.

That was not. It felt very mom, I made you a macaroni necklace at art class and thinking that mom is actually going to wear it to a fun, fancy party. It's like, kid, that's going in a drawer. Susie's not holding on. Like. Oh, no. She just forgot it in her dressing room. Yeah.

100%. But if you want the, I'm saying as the show wants the audience to believe that this is the relationship that we should root for. And Clayton and Susie said, we want people to root for us. We hope that people can get there and root for us. You got to demonstrate to me that this is more than, well, I ain't have nothing else to do. So I'm going to get back with my ex-boyfriend who's like, okay. Yeah. What's her favorite candy? Get her a thousand of her favorite candy. What's her favorite

cookie? Make them in the shape of a rose. I could do this all night. Like, come on. There are little things that he could do that the show could help him put together. The show could have even given him as an option and say, just do this. They could have dropped rose petals. They could have brought out a band whatever they weren't doing it they were

not doing it the thing something that i know that was talked about and let's move the conversation more to gabby and and sue rachel rather and i think we all felt this way and we and it was kind of it came to a head when he broke up with Rachel or kind of, and we saw Rachel leaving. It's that, you know, a lot of times, you know, the way the show's edited, they want to, they want to distract you and, you know, surprise you and, and maybe hide a connection here or there, you know, make you think they're going to pick someone else type of thing. But we always thought, we thought it was Rachel the whole season. It seemed like the strongest connection. Susie was definitely catching up, but,

and Clayton definitely got excited. You know, that bell tower thing. Like I, I, as someone who's been in his shoes, knowing how tired I'm sure he was, the fact that he got excited meant he really was excited that she was there.

Cause most of the people you'd have to like, you know, so he clearly was into that she was there because most of the people, you're just like, oh, fuck, I'm not talking. So he clearly was into her. But other people have been like, oh, maybe the show just edited Rachel and Clayton's connection to fool us. But clearly, we saw Rachel's reaction. And that is, certainly Rachel did not think

that the show played up their connection to distract us fully in, in love. Yeah. Because Gabby, you know, they, they responded very differently. They're obviously different women, different personalities, but also like, and even Gabby kind of said as much at AFR, she thought Clayton might pick her, but she was prepared for Clayton not to pick her. She, she understood the assignment. She knew what she signed up for etc etc and she chose to believe Clayton Rachel whatever Clayton did and said she was like he's picking me she did not prepare herself at all and I wouldn't I wouldn't either if someone said in private I've never said I love you to someone in six years. And I'm not even a lot like, you know, I know Ben Higgins said it before.

And it's been there have been breaking rules recently. But the L word is a big deal in that world still. And when you say it, you're thinking you're not supposed to say that. But you're saying it to me. Yeah. And I don't know if Clayton even realizes that. I don't know. But I bet Rachel did.

Yeah. And you saw Rachel's reaction was grief. It was grief. She was sad. The way she reacted when he said that he had told the other women that he loved them to when, you know, she realized that he was breaking up with her in the group breakup situation. It was grief and this sort of a disbelief almost of, I didn't think you would do this to me. And the way she kept saying, I don't know that you're going to put me in a car right now. Are you really going to put me in a car right now of this disbelief that he could do that in a lot of ways to put her in the car, to break up with her, not on her own.

And I think Gabby was saying, there's a lesson here. You may not learn it today, but you can and will learn it about how you're supposed to treat people. about how you're supposed to treat people. And I think Rachel was saying, I am someone that deserves this love and this grace, and you made me believe that. And now there will be, you will suffer this,

the loss of me in your life because of how you've made me feel and how you told me I made you feel. But there's a reason why, as long as the show has been on and how many seasons they've had, that it's rare to have a season where two people really thought they were it it doesn't happen that often happened with me uh it happened with blake on becca kufrin season um i think brandon thought

he was it was brandon brandon and michelle but it it. But it's not that easy because you just usually that one person they get that extra special attention because usually it's like they truly are just vibing with that one person and when they're not they kind of start getting careful because they know they're going to have to break someone's heart. They empathize. And

the way Clayton went about it, like specifically with Rachel, she had seen, she'd probably seen this show before, but he validated her clearly, obviously in all the ways that every winner's ever been validated. And Rachel,

and that's the thing, people might say, well, you know what you signed up for, but Rachel acted like, and I bought, and I felt like she had every right to feel the way she did. Like someone who had been in a relationship for years, you know, engaged or even like a family

and he leaves for another woman out of nowhere. You know what I'm saying? Like out of no, with no preparation whatsoever. And I, I, I felt and empathize with Rachel so much because I felt like she even though on The Bachelor was validated to feel those feelings there was no hesitation from him to any relationship of I have to watch what I say I have to moderate what I'm feeling and sometimes you'll even see you know the lead being like I had to do that even in my final one relationship and it wasn't until this point where I was able to actually say and do exactly what I wanted. But he didn't moderate any of that.

He never moderated how he talked about the women, how he talked to them about them, like the way how intimate he was with them, even with how much affection he showed. There was no reason for her to ever think it wasn't going to be her. And there there was no reason for her to ever think it wasn't going to be her. And there probably was no reason for Gabby to think it was never going to be her. It seemed like Susie was the only one that sort of had a hesitation,

but that wasn't even from him and his feelings. Yeah, it was just about her boundaries. It was about, yeah, about this expectation that she had for him. And I think, again, like Clayton just was in the moment being like, I love you. And I love you too. I love everybody. Isn't that great? There's love here. Why? No one else is smiling. No one else is happy. What's going on? And not never thinking there's going to be

a consequence. Never thinking there's going to be, you know, a next step for his actions. And I, and I said in my recap from that, I was, Clayton was right. Maybe team Clayton, he's allowed to say, he's allowed to say, I love you. He's allowed to sleep with as many people as he wants, but it does not free him from consequence. That was after the Susie breakup. Yes. Yeah. And so I, and so it does not free him from consequence. And he obviously thought there would never be consequences for him anywhere in this. And now that he's with Susie, were there consequences for him? If you look at the world and the plot of the show. Well, yeah, that's kind of how we open up the discussion.

I'm happy for them. I do hope they work out. But like if Clayton was my brother or I was, this was like an ass Nick episode. I had to get my, like someone called in and asked my true sense. I would say, let's say,

let's say some version of Susie called in. I'm dating this guy. Let me tell you this story. He's dating these other women and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

blah, right? It wasn't on the bachelor. And I'd say, Hey, I'm concerned that this person that you want to believe is ready and his well intention isn't really ready and you're stunting his ability to really reflect and grow as an individual because he's going to spend so much of his own energy trying to make this work and you being with him is is gonna he's gonna see it

as validation for his decisions and it's gonna be he's gonna hold on to this even if it's not right that's the thing like even if proof that he's a good person that he was able to get suzy back and if you look at a woman is not a prize or the end result of a man's self-growth the self-growth itself is the prize or the reward of the outcome of working on yourself. And I think the way that it's framed and the way that they decided to talk about it on the show, Clayton worked on himself. He felt bad. That was enough to get Susie back. And it's not just how their relationship operates which i don't know i'm not there if suzy was my friend if she wrote me asking for some help i know what my answer would

be and it would you know just go slowly take your time don't you know this this is this is what it's going to be for the rest of your is this is being with someone who's always going to be three steps behind you for where you are emotionally, is that what you want to be doing for the rest of your life? And I also think it sends a weird, which the show continually does, it sends a weird message that if a man works on himself, then a woman should take him back. And then she is that prize for the growth. And now he's done. And like a woman is not a prize for a man's growth. He should be satisfied enough that he's a better person.

And then maybe someone would choose to be with that better version of himself. Then I'm going to work on it for like a couple of weeks and then we'll get back together. I also think you saw that in kind of the language Rachel was using about like collateral damage, about how like that also not only does that relate to Susieie but it relates to the way that Gabby and Rachel were feeling throughout the whole thing of like oh we're just like little pawns in this weird chess game you're playing well yeah that's that was again there's him being he he really did treat them like pieces in his game yeah his game as I get to be the bachelor. And Juan Pablo was guilty of that.

I mean, I remember a story that night one, he was just like, so where are all the bitches at? You know, that was like,

and the producers immediately kind of like, this guy's a piece of shit. Oh no, he made a mistake. And it was just like, yeah, no,

and when, you know, there's so many producers and most of the producers that are on the ground they don't make this decision they're just like all right i guess this is the guy we got to work with navigate yeah um but i remember them telling me he said that and you could just tell like he had objectified them in a kind of literal sense of like i'm the bachelor are, he kind of had a sense of ownership to that they're there for him. And I think when we think of objectifying, we think of it in that sexual sense that a man is now treating a woman as a sexual object.

And I think we saw Clayton objectify the way that we're talking about that. He treated them as pawns. They were pieces in this game that he made them objects in his story and they were no longer people with depth and feeling and their own stories and histories. They were the things he needed to keep around or move so that he could get what he wanted. get what he wanted. And I think, you know, we talk about and say objectification to mean a very certain specific thing and calling women bitches certainly is, but keeping somebody around to make you feel good or to make you feel like this fun experience you're still having is still going on, but you're ultimately not thinking about what they're going through you're not giving them the dignity of their own emotional life that is a way to objectify someone as well and so again it sends this strange message of like it's okay to objectify women if in the end you get a love story or one of them says i want to be with you or something and so again, it's just sort of like a strange narrative that doesn't really like

The show itself. Yeah, but don't you think people in him critically, but don't you think people in life do that? I mean even Both genders in terms of like relationships people often Will validate themselves through their relationships, you know, whether it's a woman dating a man vice-versa themselves through their relationships, you know, whether it's a woman dating a man vice versa where we we will hold The people lack the ability to find them like individual self-worth in like their 20s or 30s It's like once they got out of college. I have to be in a relationship society tells us we have absolutely Why are you single that why are you single talk? So it's like and I think it's just for me what as we were sitting here watching it I was like if people wanted like what does it mean to lead somebody on what Clayton did to Gabby and Rachel?

He led them on. He let them think that there was still a chance that they were, he kept them on the hook until he could get who he really wanted. And that was Susie. And that goes along with the whole, like like game hedging bets gambling situation because we talked about this when he was fighting so hard for Gabby to stay and I was like that was just him doing a sales pitch so that he knew he would still have multiple options even if Susie had gone home he didn't want to just be left with Rachel he wanted like a higher chance that he could end up with someone yeah that's why he fought so hard for Gabby because he was like, oh, shoot,

I went from three to two to one. Let's at least get back to two. That might have been it too. I also felt like after watching it back that maybe Susie was in fact his favorite at the time or maybe part of it had to do with Susie leaving, you know, that kind of like want what you

can't have. And so when he went into that rose ceremony from hell, it actually seemed like he really didn't know because he was going to pick Susie. So he's just like, well, I need to reset. Yes. I think it was this can, I can get more time to think about how this is all going to end if they're both here. Yes.

I will have enough time to deal with this if I can keep them both here. Yes. I will have enough time to deal with this if I can keep them both here. Even if I end up with, if, you know, Susie won't take me back and I can stay with Rachel or Rachel leaves and I can get with Gabby

if Gabby leaves. Like, it was, how do I play this so I have enough time to figure this out? Yeah, it was like emotional consequence procrastination the entire season. Yes. out. Yeah, it was like emotional consequence procrastination the entire season.

Yes. Yeah. Now, I feel like the brief time we got to see Susie and Clayton, it does seem a little bit like she is going to run that relationship. Agree or disagree? You have to. You have to. You have to

with Clayton. Sure. But she almost came out there and was like, let me do the talking. That's the vibe I got. She said as she was hugging him, you did good. Or like you did well. Like it was like a coaching situation. Yeah. And I guess if that's the case, like maybe that's what Susie's into.

Susie was very impressive, I thought, this episode. When she held Clayton accountable and she articulated how Clayton made her feel. I thought she was excellent. I mean, she kept her composure all well, like it didn't seem like planned or, you know what I'm saying? It seemed a very authentic and she really, I mean, I felt like she was very relatable to a lot of people, especially women who have felt that way.

And so, you know, she's very capable of doing these things where we've all been. We've been very critical, obviously, of Clayton's inability to do some of these things. So what is it that Susie is seeing in Clayton that made her, according to Clayton, reach out to him post show? Listen, I don't know. And if she likes it, I love it, but it couldn't be me. Yeah, it's not Mayada. There's sort of the, you know, that feeling of, I have this where I will make too many decisions in a day,

and I'll get home and tell my boyfriend and be like, you need to pick what movie we watch tonight. Cause I made 15 decisions today. Susie must never have that executive fatigue because she will, she seems to want to be able to make every decision and go to Clayton and be his coach and mentor. And she's not the first person who would not the first of either gender to have that sort of relationship but you know and it feel i would want my partner to be to making the decision to work on themselves and doing all the work and be able to point out specifically what they're doing that is improving this relationship and I don't have to worry that we're going to be back here again.

I interpreted Susie's behavior and like her decision to talk and take a more prominent role in speaking as a self-awareness of like, we just watched this man absolutely destroy two people. We watched him do a lot of bad stuff. Then like on the stage, the women got to come out and tell him like how, how bad the stuff he did was. And so I almost interpreted it as like a self-awareness. Like people don't want to hear from you. Like nobody wants to hear you in love with me right now after the way you made those people feel. And it's going.

We all understand why Clayton wants Susie. We all understand how he got to that point. There's probably a lot of people on twitter online being like how the fuck could suzy take him back she has to do her own reputation damage control to be like i'm gonna tell you what's where the status is so you understand where i'm coming from and i think there's more pressure on her there's more probably going to be more focus on her as a woman as the woman in the relationship as somebody that set this expectation or this boundary whatever you want to call it that you know she didn't want him to sleep with people or say I love you to other people

a woman who's already set a boundary is now going looking like she's changing that expectation or setting something different for herself there's a lot of room for people to go after her. So for her to be like, I have to talk because they already think you're a dum-dum. We can't be two dum-dums on this couch. I will not be a dum-dum in solidarity with a dum-dum. So she has to come out and state her piece and explain her decision or explain enough of her rationale to be like, this is, you know, our business and y'all got to deal with it. So I think it makes sense also for her to do her own reputation management in that moment. Yeah. I mean, she obviously was watching the internet as the season was unfolding. She was getting back together. We don't know the timeline.

We'll get to ask Susie that. We have a ton of questions that we're coming up with. Thank you for Susie as she walks in here momentarily, I'm guessing. But to that point, I give Susie a lot of credit because we've obviously been hard on Clayton. So has Bachelor Nation, and rightfully so. Do we give her some points

for whatever she sees of staying steadfast? There's a lot of people who would have been even convinced, even if they truly love someone, to break up because it's not a good look on them.

I mean, plenty of people in Bachelor Nation, in life, you know, in terms of, like, this is, I don't, I don't, I don't want any of this. Let me talk about ego being healthy sometimes. Like, that's, like, a healthy application of ego, is being, like, I'm not gonna let my pride, like, my pride might be the thing that

stops me from, like, reneging on this thing, even if it's easier, even if it feels sparkly and good, and, like, I can be loved again, saying, like, but I'm going to say, like, nope, that's not a good look for me. Yeah. And there's been speculation that they wanted Susie to be the bachelorette. I mean, we all know how it ended now. So I do, I can confidently say the decision to have bachelorettes at the same time was a decision that they came up with in the past 48 hours

Yeah, at least the past week is not something they have been planning on doing. I also know I Remember talking to one of the producers when the season started airing and I asked him do you guys know who your bachelorette is? And and that one of that person said pretty confidently like yeah, we know who I think we're we want I don't know who that was. So there's been this speculation. But my point is, Susie had so many outs. I mean, she left,

Clayton was single. Yeah. So the fact that she reached out to him and then maybe she could have just been talking to him, but she stayed with him through all of this. I mean, at least you got to give her some credit for doing something that she believes in her heart is something she wants and she's for all the shit we give people about instagram followers and doing it for their brand and like i don't know if you could accuse suzy

not doing this for love whether we agree with like i said not. As we say in my community, if she likes it, I love it. That is her journey and her story. But I mean, I think we should recognize at least the sincerity from Susie, because if nothing else. There's a lot to lose and very little to gain in continuing this relationship. And so thinking of all the different things that you can gain and lose by being on a season of The Bachelor or The Bachelorette. She has lots to lose, there's not lots to gain. But the thing that she can gain is love. And I think that's the heaviest

thing, the biggest thing in that category of like, things to gain and she's balancing everything and that's the season she came up with. That's the season she came up with. Let the season she came up with let's talk about the two bachelorettes oh my god are we excited emotional chaos my first i tweeted i go oh i kind of like this idea and then moments later i was like oh i see

where this is gonna go they want it's good they want we're both in love with the same man. I honestly don't... If I was writing a TV show that was two leads on a romantic... But if we came up with it that fast, so did the producer. So did they. But I don't think that's why they casted them. Yes.

I think they truly had two iconic choices. And that's what made it such a great finale is that I think they truly had two iconic choices. Yes. You know? And that's what made it such a great finale is that Gabby and both Rachel were relatable in two different ways. And I. Two different women. And I think the moment for us, we were watching and they said, it's Gabby and Rachel. We're like, okay, yes, we sort of figured out they're doing a little word play to make

us think of who it could be. And then they said at the same time and we all gasped, screamed the same in unison i mean it's never been done so that's fun but yes it's gonna have it's gonna be they're bringing a little bit of paradise to the bachelorette and because i think they're gonna spin it as like the moment where gabby checked on rachel when gabby came back to the rose ceremony from hell and like checked on Rachel, I think they're trying to spin it in that way of like they'll be there to support each other and help each other.

But it's like for the drama, that's not dramatic at all. Do we feel like for their one-on-one dates, are they each going to go out on a one-on-one and then come back and talk about them? Or is it just going to be a bunch of double dates? Because if we get a bunch of scenes of just the two of them being like,

okay, I just went out with this guy. He's a maniac. Send him hot lips. And the other one's like, but I love him. I hope we have a little bit of that. I would love that. That would be so fun. So funny. Incredible. We will get that. We'll get that early on.

The first third of the season will be a lot of empowerment. It'll be a lot of get that early on. The first, first third of the season will be a lot of empowerment. It'll be a lot of what we've loved. The, the moment of Rachel checking on Gabby and Gabby apologizing to Rachel when she didn't need to, she was simply empathizing with her. My prediction, we'll get a lot of that early on.

And then as it narrows it down, there'll, or maybe we in the middle there that we'll get that drama And listen This is where the Producers They don't know They don't know these guys he's casted They might hope

There's no bad ideas in brainstorming These are two very different women Very different personalities You would think that Some men would be attracted to Rachel and some men would be attracted to Gabby. That's what I want to know. Do the guys have to lock in their tracks and they're like, I cannot go between the two. Do the men have to register and vote or something? Again, there's a lot of fun, weird mechanics.

Well, they can't pit them against, the show, the only thing I feel like the show can't do that they can't get away with, like, they can't do what they did to Caitlin and Brett, is pit them against each other. Yes. Right? They can't, you know what I'm saying?

And Gabby even said multiple times, I will not compete for love. Yeah. I will be loved, I will not compete for love. Yeah. I will be loved. I will not compete for it. Well, that's something you all want to remember because I love to bring back a callback of those moments. But what if they each have their top three and one crossover is in both of their top threes and they both want to have a fantasy suite with him. Again, there are no bad ideas in brainstorming.

Let's keep going. Let's popcorn these out there. Oh, no. I don't think that... I don't think that... I think they would have enough, like, if you're into him, I'm backing off. And I think you might see a guy refuse to land on a side.

But I think for the two of them, they appear to have enough respect and camaraderie to be like, You like him? I'm backing off. I would hope so. Yeah. Again, they're not. This had a mess of a season. They're going to have to rebound from that a little bit.

Right? Like, you can only. Bachelor Nation can only take so much. We need. They need a love story they need a happy settled love story because they have not had a lot of those my guess is

they won't listen if it happens it happens they're not going to stop chaos if chaos shows up at its door but I don't imagine they're going to try to really push the envelope towards the end like you might see a little bit of it in the middle yeah because I what I don't I think Gabby and Rachel are far more intelligent enough to recognize the

possibility of this as well as we sit here moments after it got announced yes and I think they will in fact be there to protect each other I do believe that they will that will be both of their individual goals. Now, they don't know who these men are and if they crush on the same person, but I suspect there will be... I think that, honestly, the more I think about it, that crossover of liking the same guy, the same guy... Well, it doesn't really matter if the same guy likes them,

because that guy will just look like a fuckboy and get sent home. But if they're into the same guy, I think that will be more towards the beginning of the season rather than the end. That could get settled in a lot of different ways very early. Yeah. But again, do they do it love is blind style? The guys talk to them in the pods and the guys reveal who they want to go with. Do they do it like are you the one style where each man has been matched with one of the bachelorettes?

What do the dates look like?. What do the dates look like? Like what do the dates look like? Do they go on the same trips? Do they cast more is it more than 30? No they just said 30. They just said 30 men. I would be like I want an extra 15. I want a buffer. I want a buffer 15. Oh I just said it.

You're gonna get there's gonna be a lot of called out fuckboys. Do they cast identical twins? And they do switcheroos and go back and forth between the two bachelorettes where they're in two places at one time and swap. They would love that. But I think they would cast identical twins every season if they found identical twins to cast every season.

And I do think that this decision to have two bachelorettes, I virtually know that this decision for two bachelorettes was happening in the past week. So the casting process has been going on for months. So that would just be more luck than them going out there. I'm saying, if you could do like a

switcheroo, like Bella's in the beginning of their WWE career where they had twin magic, where they're somehow in two places at one time. Like if you could have that, what a treat. A mid-season reveal where not one man were two. Unbelievable. And now that I'm thinking about it and I just, you know, they cast 30 people, right? At least from the guys.

Like from my point of view view on the ground floor, not when you start getting to know these people, there's not going to be 30 eligible men. And there, and now they're casting for two people's tastes. Yes. They have to satisfy two very different people. Sure.

But I just want like if, if, if Tyler of a Tyler Cameron shows up, you know, we're like universally just considered hot, you know, and, you know what I'm saying? Like, someone who's just, like, charming, nice, and good-looking, it's, it's, it's, the drama is if these women like the same guy. It's not about, again, this, a guy being into both, because so they can be too.

And, and while Gabby and Rachel might be very different, they could easily be in to the same guy. There are certain people on both genders that everyone at least would consider, would consider. And then very much, we've talked, the bachelor is very much early on a physical attraction game.

Like you have very little to go on. You don't know what to trust. All you have is your eyes. You're just like I'm physically attracted to this charming nice talking good looking guy. That could happen and because I don't think

guys that they're attracted to, guys who are well spoken and can talk and have charisma and aren't just like tall, good-looking weirdos, because there's a lot of tall, good-looking weirdos that get casted on the show. With the ick.

There's just a ton. I mean, I remember just showing up a couple times being so nervous. I've talked with a couple guys who are just like, oh, fuck,

this is the best, the best are showing up. Like, I'm going home night one and I'm just like, I'll be fine. You know, like, everyone starts one and i just like i'll be fine you know like everyone starts talking and there's like three or four guys we're like okay you get it you're very cool don't worry about you but like yeah and so that's where i that's where i wonder over that drama can get where they kind of lock on in on like that's what i'm saying you need an extra buff for 15 guys

just throw an extra 15. Or like bring them in as a mid-season spice them up. They could do that. I bet they could bring in some guys. They've done that with the playbook for that. Claire and Tasha. Matt James. Matt James. They've done that. It's also going to be interesting how they do the roses.

Do they have to agree on a collective group to give roses to? Do they each get roses that they give to separate people? They group to give roses to do they each get roses that they give to separate people probably get roses oh yeah that's right because i think that's really going to set the tone of the show because if i'm sure by the end like they have to be giving out roses individually but if at the beginning they're agreeing on a group it's like them trying to sell the scene you know what i can tell you right now is that they're literally doing the producers are doing this right now.

They have no clue. No bad ideas in brainstorming. They have no clue. You collect all the rainwater and you filter out what's good. Like, let them. It's going to end up like Halloween as a kid when like you and your friends or your siblings would be like, I'll give you a Reese's for two M&Ms. It's like, I'll give you James for Brandon. Like, it's just, we're going to swap.

Yeah. And really fight for our roses. That's a great question. Like. Is there a pool that this many men must be cut? Because could there be a rose ceremony where Gabby's like, I'm not cutting anybody. You figure it out. Right.

And also, what if Gabby. There's a formula. They have to cut so many people because they start traveling. Yeah. And like, there's a, you know, it's just like, we only get, it's only 15 plane tickets. You know, like we only have it's only 15 plane tickets you know like we only have accommodations for like whose person whose people like gets prioritized in that situation because like that's some good drama like i think that would be so much more

satisfying than like them competing for the same men would be like okay like who gets this last spot of the existing men also think about there's also a reason why they've never done this before because there's only so much air time we've all we're always complaining about like the person who's made it to week week seven who we've never seen before there's only the lead only gets so many one-on-ones so now like maybe they've thrown a couple extra episodes but also maybe not you know what i'm saying like at the end of the day like like TV is a priority. Love comes second. They'll acknowledge that they care about love. They do. They want it to happen, but there's a schedule, you know? And Warner Brothers is making the show while ABC is like, I don't know, we got like 12

Mondays for you. You know what I'm saying? So like they might add on a few, but like logistically speaking, there's only going to be so much air time and there's going to be so many dates and so they're going to have a hard time figuring that like how do they prioritize each do they alternate who gets dates what week like two on one two bachelorettes you will have your first two on one with two bachelorettes and one guy for sure that'll be great that'd be fun and when does that happen does that happen early does it happen late after they start liking them like the now i think watching the seasons recently we they've definitely fallen into a pattern and when you get these most shocking finales ever it's to subvert on the pattern because they know that the viewing audience is now pretty smart and like

gets how this is supposed to unfold we now have something like you're saying that we have no idea how and when this is gonna go what's gonna happen so they've definitely guaranteed well i gotta see some of this to watch and you maybe have people that are like i'm tired of the show i'm tired of this every season ends with this weird question mark and then they get back together and they break up it's like hold on a thing that i've never fully seen before i'm back in and it's two women which like all of my friends are like i love the bachelorette seasons more than the bachelor because just like women are inherently like a tiny little bit nicer on the show and like can run the game a little bit so it's like fantastic we get to watch two women twice of the thing I like, in a package I've never seen before. Two great tastes that taste great together.

Fantastic. It could be amazing. It also could be a total train wreck. We don't really know. I think the show just has to be very careful. That's the challenge of the show. How do we make great TV, have drama, and not look like we're pitting these women against each other?

Because even a two-on-one, it makes sense. Of course we're going to have a two-on-one, two betchrets and one guy. But immediately, now they're competing. And how do they respond to that? Especially, it's not good TV to have them go out with a guy that neither of them are into. Or that one's really into, the other one just bows out. That's not compelling television. How do the limo exits work?

Do they exit for Gabby and then exit for Susie? Are Gabby and Susie standing there together? Like, again, are Gabby and Rachel standing there together? Like, how do we navigate all these things that we have the convention for? We suddenly don't know what they look like. My guess is the first half of the Fortnite one will be very similar to Caitlyn and Britt's season, where it's just they're both staying there.

They meet them both. You're going to wonder who goes to who first. Not that that really matters, but they'll make it a thing. Now, how it ends, they're not going to vote or anything like that. But the big question will remain is what's the first roast? Like, how's the first roast

ceremony going to go? Because already that's like, sounds like chaos. Yeah. But again, now we have questions. We're in. We're in.

I'm curious. They did it. God damn it, they did it. Just when you think you're out. Just when you're ready to walk away. They bring you back in. We're stuck here. Too many people listening to us talk about it.

How many more of these can I recap, can I talk about? And then they said two Bachelorettes. And I said, okay, I gotta be in. They're both incredibly likable. And I love how different they seem and how close they are. And we'll see how long they hold on to the friend supporting friends.

I think that's going to stay. I really do. I think the tone of the clubhouse, the cast of the women, has so aggressively become we are friends. We are friends before we are even going after this person, I think is too strong of a thing. I hope you're right. Just based on like the trend that I've seen, and sometimes I think this is a bigger conversation, but I think sometimes it's a detriment to the season because you don't sort of get the

women like really going after the lead because they don't want to step on toes or piss off the rest of the women. But I think Gabby and Rachel could not step foot back out in the world if they like shut each other down in some way. And I think the two of them, just at the reaction of like, we're both The Bachelorette was so excited.

I think we're in for a season of friendship. And maybe they'll give each other their final rose because friendship is the love that matters most of all. There you go. You wrote it. Nailed it. Here's how they do it. They just gotta find one massive fuckboy that they both

kinda like early on. And they both figure out he's a fuckboy. And in solidarity, they both send him home kinda together. Is there a moment where one of them is into a guy and the other one is like, he's a fuck boy and in solidarity they both send him home kind of together is there a moment where one of them is into a guy and the other one is like he's a fuck boy and now i gotta convince my girl that he's a fuck boy and one of them doesn't want to see she doesn't listen right away then she figures that that would be good ali we could probably keep talking for a while uh thank you so much for recapping this mess of a season. Oh, thank you so much

for having me. Thanks for finally being in person. You're welcome back anytime. I know my audience loves you. They will even more after this episode. Please, once again, let them know where they can find you, follow you, and consume all the things that you're doing. Your Emmy Award winning content. My Emmy Award winning content. To start

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Do that. Keep listening. We have Susie coming in. We're probably going to drop both these episodes pretty close back to back. So if you're listening to this and finishing it up because you're an eager person in the morning

and the Susie interview one-on-one with just Susie, we have a ton of questions for her. It'll be up momentarily within hours if it's not up already. Hopefully it is and you just keep on listening, whatever you're doing at work. Let's be honest. You don't really want to work. Just send an email

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