The Viall Files - E398 Bachelor Gossip with Cathy Kelly

Episode Date: March 22, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelor Gossip Edition. Today we are joined by journalist, host, model, and fan favorite, Cathy Kelly! We’re here to cover the fallout of the Bachelor finale, reflecting on how much Clayton has grown since the show ended, why Susie is dating him, and how the show will change for the next season with two bachelorettes. On this episode, we spill the tea on the insider scoop of what rose ceremonies will look like next season, getting to the bottom of if Clayton likes to be choked after a shocking social media post, how fan favorites can be just saying the right things instead of being good people, and if  Bachelor In Paradise will happen after the next Bachelorette season. “She is the best publicist that Clayton could have”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: CocoFloss: Go to http://www.Cocofloss.me/VIALL to get 20% off the 4-Spool Set and free shipping ShipStation: Go to http://wwww.ShipStation.com, click on the microphone at the top of the page, and type in VIALL to get a 60-day free trial. Blenders Eyewear: To score 15% off your Blenders purchase, visit http://www.BlendersEyewear.com and enter promo code VIALLVIP.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @cathykelly See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files bachelor bachelor like follow-up debrief? I don't know. We're going to keep going. So, yeah, now we're just going to keep going on the Tuesdays. We're going to – lots to debrief on the fallout of that crazy finale. We'll also probably in the future,

we were going to try to get Serene on as well to call in or come in and join us. She's flying at the moment. So look for maybe Serene in the future. Sinead, I think we need to have Sinead on. I think we need to give her the platform. A lot of people have been thinking I've been defending her. Of course, they don't want to quite listen when I say,

hey, listen, we don't really know. She deserves some criticism, but I don't know. Is there more to, listen, we don't really know. She deserves some criticism, but I don't know. Is there more to the story? I don't know. But I would be curious in having a chat with Sinead. So we'll be doing a lot of stuff in this offseason. It's our first Bachelor offseason in some

time, and quite frankly... Thank God. Exhausted? Yeah. I feel like we've got to have the anticipation, like the build. We've just been like back to back to back. I mean, there was a lot of stress and anxiety as a viewer surrounding this season. So to have a little break would be nice. It's nice.

And if you can't recognize the voice of my guest, the wonderful Kathy Kelly is back with us. So nice to be with you, Kathy. You are well-loved by our audience and your takes on all things Bachelor Nation. I just got back from Vegas, so my one brain cell functioning is going to try to break down what happened. I think we only need one brain cell when we talk about The Bachelor. Yeah. That'll be fine. A couple housekeeping things. I released the cover of my new book.

Congratulations. Thank you. It's huge. It's called Don't Text Your Ex Happy Birthday. And other advice on love, sex, and dating. Future Amazon bestseller. I hope so. It took, I actually wrote it.

Like, I wrote it. It took two years. Amanda, how is it? Have you? It's genuinely very good. And like, I say genuinely because I am privy to a lot of Nick's advice being in studio a lot of the time, and there was still stuff in there that I was like, damn, okay. You made me, I was talking about a little situation and he made me read it. He was like, maybe check out this section. And then I read it and I was like. And then she screenshotted it.

Is it just a lot of relatable advice? Yeah, it's a lot of, yeah, it's if you followed questions with Nick on my Instagram or ask Nick on the podcast. Yeah, it's a lot of advice with anecdotal stories from people from our show. Yeah. Our questions or my friends' anecdotes, a few anecdotes about my dating life. It's a fun, easy read. I feel like there's a lot of insight behind why you should do it. It's not just like, do this, don't do that.

It's like, here's an example. Practical advice. Yeah, and kind of breaking it down. Meant to be funny and fun and easy. I feel like if anyone who's struggling with any type of their own personal relationship or have a friend who's like, you know, just having a hard time getting out of their own way or struggling, I think there's a couple tidbits. It's like dating for dummies, but funny and fun.

I have a lot of people that I recommend relationship books to. Like maybe you should read this instead of venting for three hours about the guy that we talked about two years ago. I definitely had imposter syndrome. I was like, and then when I wrote it and then when you write it, like for me because I'm not a writer, I wrote it in segments.

That's also very impressive. Most people go with ghostwriters these days. It took a while. I had a team of editors letting me know where commas go. Two years in the scope of things is not that long. There are people that take decades to write a book or never do it and just hope to

do it one day. It was a process. You did it. It was a process. And after putting it together and then reading it because you kind of put it together like a puzzle, at least I did. I don't know. I was like, this is it. Are you happy with it? Yeah, I think it's good. Because at first I was like, I'm going to write this book and not tell

anyone because I don't know if it's going to be good. That's the vulnerability behind it. I don't know. I was like, I don't know. Anyways, I can't thank you guys enough for supporting this show, obviously. I know this is the bachelor portion of this podcast, but if any of you, obviously many of you,

I don't know if all of you listen to our Ask Nick episodes, definitely this book is right up your alley. And if you hate me, if you hate listening to this show, you can hate listen and read the book. And it'll be great. There will be a link to pre-orders. It'll be in the show description. Can't thank you guys enough. If you want to pre-orders. It will be in the show description. Can't thank you guys enough.

If you want to pre-order it, I would appreciate it. Also, limited supply, I think, at first. And from what I understand, the amount available... We'll see if we hit that mark. Anyways, I'll stop talking about it. You want the first edition copy, though, if you're going to get it. Is that what you want? Yeah.

Okay, yeah, get the first edition copy. It will be a collectible one day. You never know. I will say this. The first editions, I believe, are half of our ASNIC audience. So get it while you can. Get it while you can. It just speaks to the size of our ASNIC audience.

Billions. We'll see our ethnic audience. Billions. We'll see. Billions. Billions. All right. Tomorrow on Going Deeper, the hysterical, wonderful Chris Olson is with us to talk about his relationship, his public breakup. We have to get into Kanye and Pete and Kim at all.

Some other- News and bands. Pop culture stuff. A lot to cover. I believe Shane from Love is Blind will finally be with us next Wednesday on Going Deeper, so look out for that. It's possible.

It might not happen next week. We will see. Anyways, let's finally get into some Bachelor talk. Kathy, we didn't have the pleasure of talking to you about the finale a lot has happened since that has gone down but what was your your reactions and more importantly how are you feeling now because i feel like as as things decompress obviously you're watching it you're kind of like what the fuck yeah and you have these hot takes and into instant reactions but you know we had the pleasure of talking to Susie,

and we'll get into that a little bit. But what are your thoughts and feelings after, of the whole season in general and then the finale? It was a hot mess, obviously. I think everyone can agree on that. Women tell all also a hot mess. But just, I mean, overall from the season, I'm not as mad about it as other people

are people are really I feel like mad at Clayton and now mad at Susie and I don't understand I mean like I do to an extent of it feels like she had this um you know boss moment of walking away and choosing herself and then she went back to him but But you have to understand, I mean, like, what we don't see is the, what, four months where they had to have really tough conversations and work things out, and she made that choice. So I'm not as mad about it. I think that he actually showed more growth in that four months than maybe a pilot Pete did in the time that, you know,

from his season finale to the after the final rose. That's a good point. I mean, the mess that was Pete's season honestly just kind of got started after AFR. I mean, after AFR was— We don't have a mom to blame in this situation. Not only that, but, like, yeah, so he broke up with Hannah Ann. Essentially, well, they aired the breakup at AFR. And there was so much drama that Hannah Ann quickly became, as it relates to Peter's relationship, an afterthought.

We love Hannah Ann. But as far as Peter's season, I think people forget they got engaged. Yeah. People were expecting Clayton to end up with a similar type, like Kelly situation, where it was someone that got eliminated in the middle of the season. That doctor who tried to date him at the Women's Halal. But you make a good point because then he got into Kelly and all those things. And did you get a chance to listen to my interview with Suzy?

I heard clips of it, yeah. I don't think, and I said this on an Instagram post, I don't think I've ever been more impressed with a guest. She is the best publicist that Clayton could ever have. Truly. She is so good. And from my point of view, it's just like Susie literally came from AFR to this studio. It was late.

It was at night. We didn't know what to expect. I didn't know much about Susie at all and then what we watched on the show. And a lot of alumni, we get to interview a lot of bachelor alumni, and they're great, and a lot of the leads. And I have a great time talking to them all. But sometimes, and I get why, like sometimes they come in very hesitant, guarded. You know, they don't know what to expect from me.

I think some of them kind of have this like, oh, big bad Nick kind of. Some, not all. Some of them are excited. But either way, they're all very kind of guarded and reserved. And I get it. They want to be and reserved and you know i mean i get it they want to be careful because you know you have producers really don't say this you don't

say that and suzy came on this show like after what must have been an incredibly difficult time she's very self-aware she came on fully knowing afr that the the criticism that she would get and she kind of just walked in with a ray of sunshine, very welcoming and sat on here, sat on this couch. And we asked her some tough questions too. And she just really shined. And I was really impressed. She also was just so authentic because I think sometimes you have people saying kind of like the correct PR things. But not only was she saying things that I think sometimes you have people saying kind of like the correct PR things but not only was she saying things that I think really explained her situation and made people I

think second guess like how much they wanted to like shit on their relationship yeah but she did it in a way where it felt so authentically her and genuine and it was just like amazing people go to years of media training for that stuff. Truly. I mean, it was... Run the media training. Like, the Kardashians have gone to media training and still aren't that likable, so... It's really impressive. And then since then, like, have you been... Like, their socials, it's very likable.

I think that that was the low point in their, you know... Their polls dipped a little bit bit and now they're going to shoot back up. Yeah. Like, people will see them together and two years from now when they're still together and get engaged, people will be like, oh, we were wrong. Like, it all worked out. After, honestly, I think if both Gabby and Rachel find a happy ending on their season,

there will be more support for Clayton and Susie as well. Sure. I mean, look at ari and lauren i mean they have a nice little fan base and following the very successful relationship and you can tell just in the past week i mean sure you could you could accuse it of being like performative of course they're going to post like loveydovey content, but they seem like they're genuinely happy, and they have no reason to be together other than they like each other. Because Susie has no reason to be with Clayton other than they like each other.

You could say, oh, maybe Clayton's just holding on for dear life to trying to make something of this experience, but yeah, they have no reason to be together other than they like each other. And there's a level of authenticity, I think, that you see on their Insta. There was a split second where, when they were showing the legs of the girl walking,

I thought that it was going to be Sinead. No. I know, I know. That would have been wild. But then people would have reason to hate him. Sure. That would be, likead. No. I know, I know, but then people would have reason to hate him. Sure. That would be, like,

truly unbelievable. I know. That would have been... But they said it's the, you know, you'll never expect who it is, and then it's, like, the most obvious choice.

Well, I think if you weren't reading any type of spoiler, it would still have been surprising because the way it ended, Susie was like, it kind of didn't make sense for Susie to be back. Totally. She said, you are not my person. She said that.

It's on video. Because, you know, she was very definitive when she left. Yeah, so on that level I think it was still, I think we were, a lot of people seem surprised. Cocoa floss. Gotta love some floss.

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microphone at the top of the page and type in v-i-a-l-l ship station make ship happen yeah i mean listen we we watch the show we we make hot takes on the show it's edited to elicit strong emotions and it did that but yes i think people need to remember they humanity of it sure yes i I mean, that's the thing. We've talked at nauseam of how much Clayton fucked up. I've been very hard on Clayton, especially in the finale. But that being said, yes, he made a mistake

and he recognized that. But it is a fucked up world he was a part of. And the show deserves some criticism, too. They cast a guy who had some growing up, too, who's immature and inexperienced. And the audience knew that going into it. Everyone said, we don't want him as The Bachelor.

They wanted someone with... Sure, and more experience. I think we realized just how maybe, you know, immature and inexperienced he was when it comes to relationships and dating and his ability to recognize that of how to manage feelings.

And we can criticize him for that, but the show also definitely took advantage of that and left him hanging. And you can debate whether the show should get more involved or not, and we talked about this the week before. It's just like, do you want the producers to produce or should they like let people just be themselves but you can't have it both ways you hit the nail on the head when you

said there was no pushback from Clayton as far as they probably said okay you guys have to break up or you have to break up with these two girls and instead of saying can I do it separately because I respect both of them he just went in like okay well I guess I have to do that it just he kind of I mean even from the beginning of the season he reminded me reminded me of a lost golden retriever like he just wanted to do good but he like the dog from up like he had the best intentions but he just didn't know what to do he wasn't guided at all um I think I was texting you. I like Jesse as a host, but at the same time, he should have been more of a mentor in that situation. And I feel like

he was just asking him questions that he already knew. He's like, man, this is a tough situation for you. I don't know if that's Jesse or the show, because keep You know, because keep in mind, you know, when Jesse's talking to Clayton, they could cut it out. But, you know, with it being his first season, and I got to meet Jesse for the first time at AFR, I mentioned this, like really charming. You have a man crush on him? He's very likable. Okay. You know, and just a nice guy. But, yeah, it's kind of like, man, especially this season.

You know, Chris Harrison was never the best mentor, you know, as the host. Like, he wasn't. Yeah. Why was that? Was he a little checked out or? When I first went on the show, I think Chris, my impression was, yeah, it was more like big bad Chris Harrison, I'm the host. And he kind of like, I think a lot of people were surprised by like just how little they saw

chris i mean it's the host of the show it's it's like when you when you're cast you're like no he's not really involved at all and i think he checked out a little bit i you know or and like the andy and caitlin of it all and i think he stepped up a little bit towards the end of his being the host of the show and show and became more involved and became more interactive with alumni. I became friends with Chris far after I was ever on the show. And if you're Chris or Jesse, it's like you got all these people coming. I can be friends with everyone.

I get that. But from a mentor standpoint, Chris wasn't exactly giving, like, yes, he was not being a mentor. I just think there was a drastic shift from the Tasia Caitlin hosting style of being there and being the, we've walked in your shoes before, so let us guide you, let us help you, to the, you know, that was a really tough conversation to watch. Listen, I agree. I wish they would have a more mentor role with the host. that was a really tough conversation to watch. Listen, I agree. I wish they would have a more mental role with the host. Or even somewhere in the middle where you're playing more of a therapist role than just pointing out the obvious.

But when they hired Jesse, it was, to me, obvious that they were actively going against that role. The only thing I don't understand is you heard Jesse multiple times, whether it was at Women's Halal or early on, like, I'm going to be there for you. I'm going to help you. You're not going to be alone in this.

He talked about being a mentor to Clayton, but never really did. And when all the shit was going down, it was almost comical just how he would come in and go, that was crazy. So I'll let you two talk. Yeah. All right. Well, good luck. You know, it was just like, wow. I mean, cause Clayton really could absolutely have used a, like a friend who had been like hey man like a lot like i don't again is the show going to do that i don't know yeah they don't want to dim down the drama but that that is the balance of having your mentor is because you're they don't always want you to give

get advice yeah that's going to be the most sound-minded and avoid of drama. And I mean, as far as Clayton shitting the bed with the final three women, I do feel like, different from what you said of you feel like he got Susie, so now he's not going to continue his growth. I think the opposite. That was just a concern. That was just a concern. Okay.

I was going to say, you are most like the five people that you spend the most time with, and she seems very emotionally intelligent. So hopefully some of that rubs off on him. I think that she is going to challenge him to be better in that regard. I think we also saw with his family the way they were like, dude, like what? And I think like the way they held him accountable, it reminds us that he was incredibly isolated in this environment from the people he would usually go to. And like, while that it does show kind of like what he does when he is like kind of by himself and really backed into a corner in that situation, like not to negate his choices. But in real life, usually you do have the benefit of if you surround yourself with good people, then you get to lean on them. How great would it be

to always date someone that had parents that kept them accountable? Oh, yeah. I think that's the best, like the best dynamics are when like the parents like the partner of their kid.

Yeah. Like when they think the world of them. Yeah. And like more of them than like not like love them more, but you know what I mean? When they're like, nope, she's right.

He's right. Whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've, we've all been reckless with other people's feelings. We've, and that's, and that's what Clayton is guilty of is just being reckless with people's feelings. And like nowadays in hookup culture and ghosting, like if, put it this way. If you've been in a dating situation

and you've dated someone early on and maybe you've hooked up and you're just like, I don't know if I like them and maybe you just kind of avoided them or tried to phase them out and knowing that you probably could have been a little bit warmer

and a little bit more outgoing and sat down and had a tough conversation conversation with them but instead kind of avoided it and hope they'd get the hint then you've you're guilty of what clayton has done in a different atmosphere and that doesn't mean like clayton shouldn't be held accountable and he has and he is apologetic but like before we you know if you said i love you and you realize that's, you know, three months in the relationship and you didn't actually have those feelings, but you thought it in the moment. Yes.

Yeah. He can learn. And I think I'm optimistic that Clayton will be better for it, right? Because when we make these mistakes, the big question is, are you going to ever learn? Are you going to be better for it? Are you going to grow? And it seems like dating culture would be better off too if we all learned how to have those conversations because that's what's i mean so toxic about it now is no one wants to feel

uncomfortable so they're not ending things or they are um you know their actions don't align with their words so yeah there's kind of And they're hoping other people get the hint and break up with themselves so you don't have to and things like that. Also, Clayton seems to like to be choked. Have you seen that photo going around? It was a bold move. It was one of those things that if you were critical of Clayton and Susie,

you were like, oh, too soon or cringe or weird. But keep in mind, Susie and Clayton both posted this video, and this is a photo that's one of many in a minute-long video. So it was on there for a split. It was like an Easter egg, but it wasn't that hard to notice, and so people screenshotted it. Yeah. If it was like Michelle and Nate, everyone would have been like,

oh, shit. I think most people wouldn't have been critical of it. My level of investment in Clayton and Susie is similar to a couple from Paradise that I don't really know that much about. Yeah, the choking part. Do you think that was more of a call to action from the date or do you think Clayton's really into the being choked? BDSM?

Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously that was not mid-sex. They were not like mid-sex Susie choking Clayton and then we're like, let's record a TikTok. So I think we do need to take that into account that it was like kind of, I don't know, I think sometimes when you're being affectionate with your partner sometimes, especially if your partner's this big dude,

you're like, meh, I don't know. So I don't, I'm not sure, but I could see Clayton being very open-minded in the bedroom and kind of being like, I'll try anything once. Have you experienced a lot of men who are into having hands around their necks? I mean, it's not something I've gone for. You know, it's not really something I've really attempted to. It seems to be something more in the opposite direction.

Sure, yeah. But I'm sure there are. Yeah, it's more of a hand placement than anything. But maybe some guys are into it. Totally. I wonder if Clayton is. I don't know. But I think you can see from the media that Clayton and Susie post

that they do have this real level of intimacy and affection. All the footage just is like they both seem like they're being themselves. They're being really goofy. Yeah. And you know what's interesting about this? You know what it made me think of? Is when Vanessa and I were engaged, right? And we didn't have any of this drama,

but it was a challenge for us. And by the time AFR got there, I think we both really doubted if we would make it but we obviously stayed together because of the pressures of the show yeah and I just keep going back to the fact that they have no reason to be together other than they like each other and they sure look like and I know it's a compilation video but like social media was even different back when I was a bachelor and stories and reels. And that wasn't really as much of a thing. But we did not make a ton of lovey-dovey content. That does not look like they're faking it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think most of the time when we were on our happy couple weekends, it was, we struggled. Yeah. And it was a lot of stressful moments. And it was just like, let's take a picture. Question.

So in our mediation segment, there's couples come on and talk about some of the little things that they fight about. One of them was taco night. What was your and Vanessa's first petty little argument that you really ended up

going at each other's throats for? We never had a petty little argument that you sort of like really ended up going at each other's throats for? We never had a petty little argument. It was, it was all usually show related and, you know, in fairness to Vanessa, like it was, it's like a lot of the show stuff. Some people are better than others at handling the, the rumor mill or the gossip and all the things. And like many people before her, Vanessa read some stuff early on that she was frustrated with and reacted in a way that was,

I can understand, but intense. And I probably could have done a better job of of like I I was just trying to you had been through that before I had been through it so I think I could have been a better job of just being more of a partner and less of someone who came with the experience of being on the show if that makes sense do you also think that it it changed for you because going back to your first season did you read a lot of the comments? And did that negatively affect you? You know, I had the benefit of being the villain

the first season. And I will say... You probably got more negative comments. Well, that's the thing. It's like, there is a level, and I wonder if Clayton and Susie are doing this. I think they... I know Clayton wasn't.

I know Clayton, by his own admission, was reading shit they, I think, I know Clayton wasn't, I know Clayton by his own admission was reading shit. And I was like, you got to fucking stop. Yeah. And I do think Susie will help him, but it gets to the point where it's so bad. Some of the criticism that you just like, you do get numb to it.

Totally. And so when, when you see a nice comment, it's kind of like, Oh, as opposed to when you're used to getting praise and praise and praise and praise and praise, and you're just like, I'm the greatest, and then you see the one negative, it will ruin you. Blenders, yeah. Oh, hey, summer is around the corner. It's spring.

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And I think when you're very new to it, it does affect you more. Once you get, I feel like after a year or two or whatever, you get numb to it. Or you realize that if you believe the good, you also have to believe the bad. So you don't believe any of it. You just have to be grounded in yourself. And this environment is people that are shot into fame and have never experienced positive comments

from people that don't know them or negative comments from both, you know? Yeah. And so it was just kind of, it was tough for us. And then, you know, Vanessa wasn't a friends with a ton of the more popular women on the show and that was stressful for her. And so there was just a lot of things that we dealt with. And then our relationship of just kind of communication style and things like that, we just struggled. And so I look at, and we weren't surrounded by any of that drama, really. And so I look at Clayton and Susie, and I feel like they're going to be together for a while.

I mean, you know, who knows what's going to happen, but I think they have as good a shot as anyone. Right, and they seem to be dealing, this is probably the worst it's ever, the most criticism they're ever going to get, and they seem to be navigating it the best they can. I thought one thing that was interesting was when Clayton was asked if he should have said sorry more

or apologized for his actions, he said as someone who works in sales, he would learn that saying sorry more than once makes it less valid. So he will apologize once and then try to say sorry via actions for the rest. I'm curious what your guys' take on that is. I would say if there is only one apology, you have to make it more specific as opposed to some of his apologies, or at least what we saw were, I'm sorry you felt that way, or I'm sorry I did that, as opposed to, I'm sorry I did that. I realized it was wrong because X, Y, and Z. Your feelings are valid. And, you know, I was wrong in this situation. Yeah, I mean, I think Kathy nailed it. I do understand what Clayton is saying,

but him saying that just, to me, it shows a little bit of, I guess, youth, in the sense that there's always these nuances, right? That's a good rule. That is true. It's like in sales, you also learn things like don't say things like, can I be honest? Because it implies that you're normally not, right? So those are little things that you say to someone or you don't say in sales and you learn

tips and tricks, but like you have to be able to like take these things you learn and apply it to life with some nuance, right? And I think, yes, Clayton, I don't know if he still fully recognizes it from understanding the situation of what he was involved in. I think he knows, I think he is genuinely sorry, but I do agree with him in the sense that, what does he have to do? Apologize to every person in Bachelor Nation that was mad at him?

Rachel and Gabby are thrilled. And if it weren't for that situation and how terribly Clayton handled it, both of them wouldn't be Bachelorette. Now, if you wanted to do a coin flip, if you were, I'm curious, if like for all the, oh, can you find, I heard something that Gabby and Rachel don't follow each each other on instagram can you take a look on that oh but for all the for i'm sure if you asked them gabby and rachel that this is amazing whatever i'm sure they would have rather solo seasons right yeah behind closed who wouldn't say wouldn't want

their own season um but but if you put them in a room and said, it's like when Bachelorette used to be, do you want to split the pot or do you want to take the chance of getting it all? So if you put Rachel and Gabby in a room saying, you can both be the Bachelorette, guaranteed. Yeah. Or if one of you wants to doing your own and the other person, if you both say you want to doing your own, neither of you are the Bachelorette. Yeah. Or if one of you wants to do it on your own, and the other person, if you both say you want to do it on your own, neither of you have the bachelorette. Yeah.

And what would they have done? Would they have said, let's just share it? Or would they have taken the chance? Well, I mean, clearly the producers filmed promos with both of them. They both knew they were up for it because the stuff was on Twitter. The stuff was on social media.

I think even on the finale, there was pictures of them with roses and whatever. Sure, yeah. They signed the contracts. They both knew that there was a chance of it happening and then prior to, after the final rose, the producers must have said well, you didn't get it. There would be that shock value when

Jesse announced that both of them were the Bachelorettes. They were happy. They were just happy that they got anything. Totally. But I'm just wondering, but I guess what I was saying, like you wouldn't have two bachelorettes if it weren't for the mess that was Clayton. You would have only one of them. I was also going to say, I wonder if that is specifically male mentality to only apologize

once because women are taught to apologize for everything. Yeah. mentality to only apologize once because women are taught to apologize for everything yeah i mean it comes across as a bit it kind of just shows i wonder where he learned that he probably has some sales manager but that's what i'm saying like that that sentence that he says in the manner in which he says it is still that kind it's still you still see the claim that fucked up in that sense if that makes sense like does he understand what he of, it's still, you still see the Clayton that fucked up in that sentence, if that makes sense. Like, does he understand what he did? Because it's not, it's not an incorrect sentence and I understand his logic, but like the way he answered it and I didn't, you know, I'm just, we're just reading like a clip. Yeah, that's like a summary. But like, I definitely think they need to move on. Yeah. I definitely think he can't keep apologizing

and he has to live his life. He needs to figure out better words for what he wants to convey because, I mean, similarly to I love Susie the most, he could have said, I envision my life with, like I envision that lifestyle the most, as opposed to she is a superior woman. Yeah. Cause like a better way of answering that question would say, listen, it's been a lot and I've done a lot of soul searching and reflection and I have apologized. I am sorry. I don't necessarily think it's all that beneficial for me to keep apologizing to anyone who wants me to apologize, but I can assure you that this is something I will continue to reflect on myself, that I continue to grow and just, you know, get better at just empathizing with everyone around me and people I interact with. So like, well, I don't think I need to keep

apologizing. It will be something that I continue to reflect on. Like that would have been a better answer to show the things that you kind of talked about as opposed to like listen now my sales manager told me I should only apologize once so like let's all move on everyone it comes across as a little cold yeah sure I yeah I also think Clayton's big thing like I think a big reason that he ended up in that situation is that he focuses so much on what's right there in front of him as opposed to the larger context. And so I think like kind of what Susie said, I was really struck by her comment on the podcast when she said Clayton mentioned very early on in the journey with her, like,

you know, I think being a good person, it's all going to work out okay. And then I think we've seen him realize that that's not always true because sometimes to be a good person, quote unquote, to someone in the moment, you're not acknowledging that you're doing that to three other people and that that has ramifications. Yeah, some of the most liked people in the entertainment industry are actually horrible people that are master manipulators and narcissists and just know what is going to track the best.

100%. I would include that as far as Bat-tionation. I didn't want to go that far, but yes. I still think the edit protects people more than it hurts people. And some of the more, not all, because I'm friends with a lot of the fan favorites, I think some of the fan favorites don't have the highest character than some of the people who have been controversial

and who stepped in it or said something and fucked up. But like off camera and in life, they're just normal, nice, genuine people who are honestly interesting and like a little sloppy, but cool. And I think that's, yes, 100%. Just because you're like an unproblematic person on the show does not mean you're of high character or kind. I would say that's relatable for me. I feel like on the scale, I lean towards good person, but I didn't have the

modeled behavior of how to communicate through things until I had to teach myself in the last few years. Like I didn't have that growing up. And I feel like there are people, I mean, I've noticed it very much in like the church world of like pastor's kids are, they have the modeled behavior of how to communicate and how to get what they want and don't necessarily have the highest values all the time then that's that's a huge generalization but it can be very much true yeah yeah uh for sure can we talk about is that suzy's dog or clayton's dog have you seen a picture of this dog on the instagram i i just if you're watching this uh look at this dog. He looks very concerned.

He looks like a naked mole rat dog. I can't tell if he, it's just a wild picture of a, I've never. Like, it looks like one of those, you know, the wrinkled cats that are hairless. It looks like that in dog version. It's such a bizarre photo. Like there's something, because it's like dogs lovable, so lovable. And this dog is lovable, but there's something very, very haunting about this photo. 100%. He looks concerned. He kind of looked like Shane from Love is Blind if Shane were a dog.

Yes, we'll have to show Shane that photo and ask him if he relates. Before he got abs. But it is telling. You know, they're in Virginia. Clayton's meeting the dog. That's a big deal. And so I think it's very, like, they're really taking the steps forward and making it happen in terms of a real-world relationship.

I would also say that the biggest lesson from this season at least my takeaway of i know that everyone was unhappy with the ending and whatever but to verbalize the boundaries that you have with your partner early on um and i know that suzy regrets not doing that earlier on um the other women as well of not being necessarily clear with what they would accept as far as behavior of saying, oh, explore other relationships, but not defining what that meant. Because you assume that the other person is on the same page when you say something like that, as opposed to, you know, I'm fine with you making out with someone, I'm fine with you being shirtless with someone, but I'm not okay with penetration, or whatever that is,

to define that with whoever you're dating early on so that you don't run into issues down the line that you're not okay with. Yeah, and it'll be interesting going forward. I mean, every season is kind of an evolution of the ones before. They can kind of reset. They don't always have to be the same.

But because, and this isn't the first time, you know, you had the Maddie Pruitt and Peter and talking about sex before the Fantasy Suite, especially with someone who, you know, has more, you know, boundaries and expectations around that topic. But are you going to eventually see a lead because like here's the opportunity right because i whether the producers offer this like suggestion or you know someone

like gabby i could see doing it um maybe she takes the advice of you know people who have said like you know we talked about and i'm sure i'm not the only one who's mentioned it but if you consider the position of power that you're in as the lead, and it's not just the bachelor, but the bachelorette as well, if it's anyone's job to set upfront expectations given that position, it's the lead, right?

So, like, will someone like Gabby, having gone through this with Clayton, before Hometowns, have some sort of conversation that brings up sex earlier around one of her fan favorites who maybe is a little bit more conservative or just says it to her

two or three front runners and saying, what are your expectations of me? And get into those conversations earlier on. I don't know. show loves to like go to the certain beats of when they talk about certain things but they need it at the show i keep saying needs to like evolve a little bit more and stop relying so much on this very like structured like beats and playbook and i'm really curious if they start having more of these

conversations around sex and dating before the fantasy suite just to elicit the most amount of drama. Will they give the opportunity to be the one who brings something that up? And will it change the show going forward? Or will they just kind of go back to more traditional bachelor seasons? I would also love a breakdown of not just – I know that the bachelorettes are typically more successful in choosing a long-term partner than the Bachelors have been, but the breakdown of whether the lead was made the final three or two

versus only made it halfway through a season or did not have. You mean in terms of how they perform on the show no uh how their relationship lasts post-show well i mean the bachelor has such a terrible track record i mean i think sean low is still the only bachelor to still be with the person they proposed to on the show yeah you have jason mesnick you have ari and you have clayton now in relationships with people they met on the show but uh matt james as well matt james right so now you have matt james so like you're and michelle and nate and actually but michelle no she's a bachelorette yeah she that's what she

said so matt james actually is he didn't get, but he's still with his final pick. So there is that. But there is, you know, there, even with that story, there was, you know, they got back together. And so there was some drama around that. But I don't think that me personally, that has that much of an impact at all. You know, I think it would have helped Clayton be a little bit more empathetic, but I don't,

I think it's... I mean, maybe I'm thinking of the more recent seasons of people that didn't make it to the final three. We saw Hannah Brown did not end up

with her final pick, Katie Thurston. Yeah, I guess I don't, I don't think just gut reaction, that's why. Okay.

Yeah. I don't think it makes you that much more prepared but you know like because the success of these relationships or the lack thereof I think has everything to do with the compatibility the their ability to get over the drama and the stress that the show brings. And whether you were a more experienced Bachelor contestant or not, I don't think makes a bit of difference in two people's ability to communicate and get through stress or their compatibility. Because at the end of the day, I do think generally you're still going with your gut reaction. Looks are a big part of it.

You still know very, you're still going with your gut reaction looks are a big part of it yeah you still know very you're going with that chemistry I think you saw and after getting to know Susie like I can see like she's very charming that after learning more about Susie and watching the show to me and getting to know Clayton a little bit I've I feel like Susie was always his favorite. And he might not have thought that Susie would like him. And you saw the bell tower scene and things like that. And I think his confidence grew and grew. And it felt like Susie pulled the rug out of Clayton. And that's why you saw him turn and get

so angry angry again not to justify it but to help understand it and I think Susie was always his like I can't believe this girl likes me type of thing where I think he felt a little bit Rachel was more he like the better connection but that's what we saw because I think Clayton was chasing Susie more. Which is ironic because I thought Susie said she didn't think that she was going to be the final one. Sure. And usually I feel like you said with Vanessa, she knew, or you at least, with most leads,

you know which one is the favorite. That's true. But maybe Clayton is someone who, you know, that's just my read, but maybe he clearly was more open to building these strong connections with multiple people, where I honestly was more like,

once I lock in, I want to separate that relationship in the hopes that it will have a chance outside of the show. And mine and Vanessa's lack of making it work was our lack of compatibility, you know? It didn't matter what I did, you know? And that's not to blame either of us. It was just, we weren't compatible at all, you know? And we had great chemistry and that chemistry was brought out while filming The Bachelor, but our ability to make a relationship work was

almost non-existent. Should we get to the host quickly before we end which is just that Jesse Palmer is going to host the upcoming season of The Bachelorettes. I feel like we saw that coming once like I said before once Jesse was the one who was asking people if you would like to date their next bachelor or bachelorette, it was all, you know what I'm saying? That it was, they knew.

I knew when he was announced that he was going to be the host for a while. And I think when they, when they announced Jesse, I think they, you know, I think with a combination of the, all the Chris Harrison stuff it was messy still the Chris Harrison stuff had already taken effect when they used Jesse for that surfing show so I kind of figured that the Bachelor producers were grooming him

to be the next host of the Bachelor it was less of the Bachelor producers and more ABC and Mike Fleiss is my understanding. But it was like a soft rollout for Jesse. They didn't make a big announcement. It's like someone soft launching their boyfriend.

They're like, we're just going to show you his hand with a coffee cup. Yeah, they were just like, Jesse's our bachelor host. And they were very vague. And I think that it really played well because people didn't make a big deal about it. And then Jesse became the host. And you're like, here's this good- nice guy he fits the part it it makes sense to me you know we've already covered the the lack of mentor but whatever but i think that was always going to be their plan and like they didn't need to announce him being the bachelorette host because

let's just get jesse in there let's get people used to him. Why make a scene about we're not going to bring Tayshia and Caitlyn back? Fan favorites. I was going to say, have they started filming yet for The Bachelorette? I believe they started in a week. Okay. Because they haven't announced the, they haven't shown the pictures on the cast. Yeah, the cast yet.

I was wondering too if they're like you said, they're scrambling to figure out how this season is going to work. So do they need to add more men? I have, I've heard some rumors about how next season might play out from people on the ground floor, not confirmed. And as someone who knows how this stuff works, it could change. So what I heard was about how they're going to handle having two bachelorettes is that there is going to be a concerted effort for the women not to compete with themselves. So my understanding is...

No two-on-one with the women. There's definitely going to happen. I would hate that. As a viewer, I would check out. There's going to be something. I don't know. And I do hope there is drama. Don't get me wrong.

I hope you have a couple fuckboys who's trying to date them both or whatever. And as someone who wants to see drama, do I hope there's at least one guy that both of the women are interested in at least early on? Sure. But my understanding is that no one's gonna go home night one like night one is this gonna be a big kind of cocktail party and meet and greet you'll see you'll see the guys get out of the limo and you'll have the two bachelorettes standing there and it's just to like meet them both and then the first day of dating will be like one big large group date again and I it's at some point early on, my understanding is that, like,

the women will present the guys they want to date roses. Yeah. And once the guy accepts a rose from one of the first bachelorette, it's like that will be... We have two-color roses. You'll have Rachel's guys and you'll have Gabby's guys, and they'll each have their own season within a season. Now, that's what I heard.

It could change. The questions I have about that is like, are we going to get more episodes? They could do the Monday-Tuesdays if ABC allows it. It might be too much. I've heard a lot of people mention Joe Millionaire. I didn't watch Joe Millionaire. I thought that they did it great.

You didn't get to see as much um of the relationships develop uh but i know that one of the guys is still with his his final choice but wasn't that show about part of it being like the who's the millionaire and who's the average yeah which i feel like was a back storyline in all of it of will these girls still want to be with the guy once they realize that he has no money which ended up I mean she didn't leave because he had no money but the one that had no money is the one that didn't work out with the relationship um but I will say it'll be interesting to see do they keep them um both Rachel and Gabby together through the season so that they can compare notes a la Joe millionaire and and they

become best friends on the show or is it at a certain point in the season they separate and you know there's still men who are going on dates with both of them so they don't know I don't think it's gonna be the latter I think what I heard even going into like fantasy suites and meeting the parents and stuff like that. Well, that's the thing. Are they going to have eight hometowns? Are they going to have six fantasy suites? Yeah. That's such a big part of, obviously, the show, and those are big.

That's where some of this, you know, big drama and some of these, like, you know, when they air the season now, you know, it's always been drama early on, just a mess and who's ever the messiest and the sloppiest and the loudest

early on gets a lot of screen time, right? And then those people tend to fall off and there's like this kind of,

the fan favorites early on, you might see a first impression rose recipient, you might see someone get a one-on-one date and it's just like,

okay, this is someone to watch out for and then they kind of go away for a few episodes because well there's drama going on yeah and they bring them back towards the middle uh end of the show because that's when there's only you know four contestants left and it's all the show's gonna be about them and then we really get to learn about you know these guys or these women but now with that much more i'm really curious how these like the love stories itself are really gonna like how much time are we gonna get to see to enjoy them i suspect you're gonna have you know like gabby and rachel will have

their top four if this is how it plays out. And the person who's a top four usually is almost going to be guaranteed some sort of notoriety, a bit of a following. Whether you're liked or disliked, you'll be talked about. But now, now you're top eight, top seven. Potentially. And you could see someone who makes Gabby and or Rachel's final four

and gets virtually no airtime like that wouldn't shock me at all I feel like there's got to be even in the final four some sort of overlap like I would say when it gets down to final two probably not but final four I feel like we'll still see some sort of overlap with the women at least having one person in common. But it's interesting because I think they're such different people, which is hopefully part of the intention or part of the reason that they think they can pull this off. But have you not dated two people that are completely different? Yeah. I think, yes. I agree. You're like, oh, they bring a lot to the table.

They both have the core qualities that men are looking for. Yeah. I think, I agree with Kathy. I think we are relying too much on the fact that they're completely different, assuming that like no one guy could like them both. I mean, yeah, they did both date Clayton, to be fair. They're attractive. They, in their own right, seem like nice and smart and funny or whatever. You know what I'm saying?

And so, especially early on, especially on The Bachelor where so much of these connections are going to be like kind of instant chemistry, physical connections and things like that, is it that hard to believe that a guy is going to be into both of them? And I think it'll be really interesting because even if the show actively tries not to pit these women against each other, if they go in thinking, that will be a bad look for us, Kathy, you've met plenty of the guys who go get casted for this show.

Yes. And there's some real good-looking guys, and there's some really nice guys, but there are a plethora of unalleged guys you would never— There are guys that have a new girl every other week. Yes, and they're not that charming, and if they are good-looking, they're kind of weird. I was going to say there are a lot that are over-the-top charming, and that's— It's a variety, but that point is the standouts are still the standouts. Yes.

It's a variety, but that point is the standouts are still the standouts. Yes. And it wouldn't shock me that there's one or two guys in this group of 30 that easily they both like. So, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, is it that hard to think that there's two guys on night one that they're both like, this is my top guy or my top two? I would say, I mean, similar to Joe Millionaire, going into I think the final three for both of them,

there was one overlap. And it didn't end up panning out, but there was one person that they were both interested in, and that person had to pick who they wanted to continue to date. Yeah, so I think it could get tricky that way just because I couldn't imagine, again, my night one, I met a lot of nice women and I had like four.

I was like, there's no chance. There's only four that I think have a shot and there was really only one and we're talking about engagement. We're not talking about, do you like these people? Are they nice? Isn't that what casting does anyways if they pick five normal human beings and then a bunch of

people i think what casting does is they're casting for a show more than they're casting for the person uh and i think too much so that they rely on the fact that it just takes one. The show is a pressure cooker enough and that the environment will elicit feelings and we know they're going to like someone. I mean, dating, I don't necessarily believe in the one. I think that it is a numbers game. And I've heard recently, I forget which dating expert that I was listening to on some podcast said,

once you've dated 30 people, you should have found someone that would be eligible to be your future partner. And that's kind of what the show is. It gives you 30 people, which is just wild. Yeah, no, I'm way above that. I mean, listen, I get the premise, but it's also a little, I think in more traditional dating, yes. Because traditional dating is. You're choosing for the most part. Yeah, you're 21 and you graduated college and you're just like in your community of people, you're like pick someone. Yeah. Essentially.

But now with the fact that we have decided to have higher standards and expectations and boundaries and we can search the world, and rightfully so, we're being a little bit more particular. But you do have to at some point pick. Because that's the... I don't know if it's we're being more particular. I think it's the paradox of choice is when you're given more options,

it takes you longer to choose. Sure, but I think you just... Eventually, we all are stuck with having to choose and whoever you longer to choose. Sure, but I think you just, eventually we all are stuck with having to choose and to whoever you talk to makes that point where there truly isn't a perfect person. And when you have so many options, when you have that paradox of choice, you can become paralyzed by like,

I don't know, what do you mean? I'm supposed to pick some, like my person. You will eventually have to like... Be okay with your choice. But that's, I always equate it to an ice cream shop of like back in the day, if you lived in Iowa, you'd have the mom and pop ice cream shop. You would get the vanilla and the chocolate as your choice. You knew going in which one you wanted and you were happy with your decision. Now we have Baskin-Robbins 6,000 flavors and you go in and you're like, do I want mint chocolate chip? Do I want rocky road? You take a lot longer to decide. And then a lot of the time, I mean, maybe you get two different flavors and you test

out all of them before you go. And then you have your choice and you're like, oh, well, I wish I had chosen something else. Yeah. Yeah. Because I do think that's such a relevant thing within dating now of like how nitpicky should you be? Because I think it can be very easy to take a very perfectionistic approach, especially in the early time of like when you want to vet someone, where that discernment comes in of like, is this actually something where I should say, nope, I'm going to walk away and see if I can find a better fit? Or is this something where like in relationships, you have to work through things?

Nobody's 100% compatible in everything. And I think the format of the show very much encourages the perfectionistic one because the whole idea is you have so many good options here. So if the second someone does something bad, they go home. Yeah. I am curious how this is going to play out.

I don't think it's going to be, like, just like Joe Millionaire. I'm sure there will be some similarities. And I just have a feeling, not because the show's going to want to pit them against each other, but what happens when they're both into, like, the same two guys

and they're forced to pick? I mean, I think it is the most interesting season that we've had in a while. Maybe not the most dramatic, but... I'm curious for sure. I wonder if... I'm really curious if it will bring some people back who maybe have fallen off from the show

just to give it a couple episodes to see what it's going to be like. It's a compelling idea. So do we not have Paradise this year? No, it's definitely going to be... I've heard people say, people are worried that Paradise is going to get canceled. I don't know. There have been like, I've heard people say like, oh, people are worried that Paradise is going to get canceled.

I don't know what that's all about. I just assumed that that was filming during the summer. I always thought that it aired during the summer and now we're getting a Bachelorette in July. They usually, I don't, yeah, it's a late start for the Bachelorette. I think usually they have started in June, like late. Like they would film the Bachelorette. They're filming a couple weeks later than they historically did yeah but like with a covid world i don't know how much they're on the same like timeline and then

they typically would air the bachelorette i think like late may early june yeah so it is starting a month late yeah july 11th yeah so my guess is Bachelor in Paradise will start right afterwards. They will film them probably back-to-back or maybe even simultaneously. With them doing Katie's and Michelle's season back-to-back, you had a lot of, they kind of split it up with producers, and there was some overlap, but a lot of them just said, okay, this team's handling Michelle's season, this team is handling Paradise.

Like, Paradise is definitely happening. It's just probably going to be towards the end of September rather than the beginning of September is my guess. Because the Bachelorette would, also, Bachelorette would typically, like on my, when I was on it, it would, the finale would be at the end of July right around when when Lollapalooza it was it would be the finale would be the weekend of Lollapalooza so and that's like end of July early August so I think why do you remember that was

that just all the castmates go to Lollapalooza no it was like when they're like fresh meat in Chicago like you measure time by Lollapalooza. Oh, no, I grew up there. Well, yeah. I understand. And it was my, I was living in Chicago, and it was like, and I was kind of stupid because I was kind of like just naive. I was like, oh, let's go to Lollapalooza right after the show.

And it was intense. It was wild, but it was intense to be off the finale and show up at a festival. Yeah. It was a wild thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It got a little scary.

I remember going to the staple bars and clubs in Chicago, like the Underground, and seeing the new people that were just kicked off of The Bachelor. The Underground. Or whatever, yeah. All right. Well, tune in next week. We're going to have some alumni from previous seasons on these Tuesdays episodes.

So what else do we have to remind people of anything? That you have a book coming out. Yeah, go pre-order my book. I really appreciate it. Chris Olson tomorrow. So be sure to tune into that. All your latest pop culture. Kanye, Pete Davidson, Kim Kardashian drama, Mediation Call.

Netflix password. Oh, yeah. You're no longer able to share your password on Netflix. Some Love is Blind updates. Some Love is Blind. Shake's girlfriend reveal. Oh, wow. And hopefully Shane from Love is Blind next week's Going Deeper.

Kathy, thank you so much, as always, for coming. Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun. Come back for a recap of The Bachelorette. Yes. Don't forget to send your questions at asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K, for our Ask Nick episodes and our mediation calls. Go ahead, pre-order my book.

I really appreciate it. It'll be a good read. I think it'll be helpful. I think it'll be entertaining. Or you can make fun of me. It's up to you. Just buy the book. Bye.