The Viall Files - E40 Ex on The Beach with Mina Kimes

Episode Date: September 4, 2019

ESPN writer and TV personality Mina Kimes, who is the first female color commentator for the NFL, joins us in the studio today to give her commentary on BIP. We talk about the Clay and Angela situation, we discuss Tayshia’s shocking choice, and we try to understand the enigma that is JPJ. Then Mina gives some advice on how to succeed as a woman in a male-dominated field.  Say yes, stay weird, and cry when you want to cry. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode! THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: PROACTIV: https://www.proactiv.com/nick BRUMATE: https://www.brumate.com CODE: VIALL EMBARK: https://embarkvet.com/ CODE: VIALL See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What's up everybody? Yep, that's it, yep. Anyways, how are you? Welcome to another episode of The Vile Files. I'm your host, Nick. We have Rachelle with us today. And a fun, very fun episode with our guest today, Mina Kimes.

She's so smart. Smart, funny, the first woman color commentator for the NFL football games. I don't know what that means. Also a diehard Bachelor fan. It just means that she's breaking glass ceiling. What is color commentary? In football, you have usually two, sometimes three people calling

the game. And the play-by-play person who is the one who's like they hand it off to this person yes and they kind of play by play that's what she's doing no oh they wouldn't what they've had other women do that which is like the person who is this more analytical whatever yeah traditionally the color commentator is the person who like is usually an retired nfl player who like adds who adds color to the brevity and comedy and they have the hot takes and opinions. So for her to do that is an even bigger deal than having her, the woman, being the play-by-play caller.

Oh, she's such a badass. And don't you think she's so humble too? She's like, no big deal. And also a really big Bachelor fan. So, get ready for some really great conversation with Mina Kime. Some color commentary on Bachelor in Paradise. Yeah.

So, I don't know. you know what we didn't talk about, which I thought was funny, was when Christina brought you up. Yeah. What the fuck? I have some thoughts.

But before we do, get to that. Anyways, it's fucking Christina. Whoa. I have some thoughts. But before we do, get to that. Anyways, fucking Christina. Whoa. I'm just kidding. Are you really upset about it? I mean, no. I honestly am probably more annoyed with the show airing it.

Than her? I don't. I'm not surprised that Christina had that to say. In fairness to Christina. That you're hard to talk to? i probably wasn't easy to talk to uh on my season with christina right since she decided to tell me that she slid into my brother sam's dm uh brother sam before our season uh of the like to flirt with him i don't know what her intention is she's just like yeah i was like i slid into your brother's dm and i was talking to him a little bit i was like that's super weird and i had sensed prior to that that she was just a die-hard bachelor fan okay and so it was quite honestly kind of awkward i mean again

as the bachelor it's i've talked about it's very difficult and so like your walls were up well not whatever i'm just saying like as the bachelor i don't know like i didn't think i didn't agree with why the show decided to air that bit that had nothing really to do with the show about colton being a bad kisser right like it's he's not something he's not on the show i know that might be i don't know but he's not on the show and like uh whether colin is a bad kisser i don't i don't know but like for the women who he sent home or he's not dating it's tough to be the bachelor. Maybe Colton wasn't into them and it was just like, I'm tired of kissing 15 people

in one night so his heart's not in it. Your lips are tight. You know, whatever. Or like maybe she, whoever said woman is, had really bad white wine breath when they were kissing.

He's just like, I, I, I. Yeah. Or maybe for fun, you like, you're bored as a bachelor sometimes and you deliberately made out with her poorly because you felt bad. Or you're gonna send, bachelor sometimes and you deliberately made out with her

poorly because you felt bad. Or you're going to send her, there's all these, what I'm saying is all these variables. Right. Or a girl saying

she slid into your brother's DM. Right. And so for, like why they throw their leads under the bus sometimes is a bit frustrating.

Throw their leads under the bus, yeah. I understand that. Lucas, he's a little mini you, huh? He's a guy with a beard and curly hair i've been told by multiple people he looks nothing like me a little he's like a mini you

in person i i've never met him oh but you would see it he you he's a guy with a curly hair and a beard if i had a dollar for every girl who dm me and said my boyfriend or son or brother looks like you and it's just a guy with curly hair and a beard. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, whatever. I don't know. I mean, not a huge fan of the comparison. I'm sure he's lovely. Yeah.

But we talk a lot more about Bachelor in Paradise in this episode. We do. Mina is a big fan. But anyways, yeah. So I i probably if you tell me you uh hit on my brother on a date i i might not be the most conversational what's his instagram handle i'm just kidding uh he's got a girlfriend now okay so anyways uh up next the wonderful delightful very talented and funny and hardcore bachelor fan media times how are you i am great i'm thrilled to be here i'm thrilled to have you uh for those

of you who don't know uh who mina is you should um she is a very successful writer with ESPN. You work directly with ESPN. I do. I work for ESPN. ESPN. And you're really on the up, so to speak. I feel like you might be a household name in three to five years. I don't know about that. Maybe my parents' household. I think you're being modest. Amina recently, this preseason has uh been calling games for the los angeles rams football you're not the first woman to have done that but it's a short list of women who are calling nfl football games yeah there's been play-by-play beth moans who works for us uh but

color on tv i am yeah so You are the first. Color. Oh, wow. I do color. So for those who don't know, there's play-by-play. I don't want to mansplain football as we talk about this to your audience. I have no clue what you guys are talking about. Yeah, no.

This is a really, I think it's a cool thing. And you should, we have like 10, we call them our 10 percenters of our listeners are our men. So you can, I have the reverse, I think 10% women. There's a bachelor connection We call them our 10 percenters of our listeners are men. So you can.

I have the reverse, I think, 10 percent women. There's a bachelor connection with the Rams. So the Rams practice. He just made the practice squad. They're backup, backup quarterback. And two of the players who played a lot this preseason went to Wake Forest. And the whole time I was around them, I wanted to ask them if they knew Tylerler but i also didn't want to set feminism back a hundred years by bringing that up here you are commentating for the first time and your first question to them is do you know i wanted to ask so bad um but

yeah i think that's really cool and the more like i i realized who was. I'm a big, obviously, football fan and a Packer fan and therefore Aaron Rodgers fan. And you did a really interesting piece on Aaron, and I read that and started following you. And then since then, I've just been following your work, and you do such a great job of picking very interesting football players to cover. Your piece on the Bennett brothers was really fascinating. So you're very talented. And she's also a diehard Bachelor fan. You've been a Bachelor fan much

longer than I've even known the show existed. Wow. That's crazy. Well, I mean, you, right? No, yeah. It's like I told our mutual friend, Juliet Lipman. It would be like if stephen a smith who's on espn wasn't allowed to give takes about football that's our sports generally that's how i feel about the bachelor because i have this wealth of useless knowledge that i'm just it's like a mountain of i have a phd that i'm sitting on and i never get to use so i am so excited to be here and talk well we're excited to have you are do most of your peers in your life not have the same passion or interest about The Bachelor as you do? You know, it's funny you say that because I feel like over the last maybe three or four years,

a lot of sports personalities have gotten interested in The Bachelor. You probably noticed that as well. Yeah, I've run into a few um uh football players i find that a lot of offensive linemen are bachelor our bachelor fans uh and it always is because their wives are fans um joe thomas we've become like twitter friends he's from wisconsin and he started following me and i've I've always followed him and he's just such an interesting character. So we've DM'd a few times back and forth

and just like a few offensive linemen that I don't remember their names, but they're like, I play for so-and-so team and always very friendly, but they're a fan. Prince, he plays for the Bears now, Prince Akamura.

Yeah, you're close. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. He's a diehard fan. I met him and his wife in New York and used to play for the Giants. And so, yeah, there's plenty of football players in the NFL who are Bachelor fans. I am on a very active group chat with two of my colleagues, one who is a former offensive lineman, Michael Jr.,

and the other is Dan Orlovsky, who is a former quarterback. That's just all batch talk. It's called, we change the title every now and then. It's currently called Fence Jump Fans, but it's super. But the thing is, yeah, I know we got to bring it up to date. The thing is, Nick, though, like most of these people I feel like are kind of new. I've watched every Bachelorette season. Every single one. Every single one. Trisha's, I started with Trisha. And then I tapped out a few Bachelor years, got back into it.

I think Jason Mesnick is when I first got back into it. So I am OG. I know you're married now, but like, obviously you weren't married when you first started watching. How much do you think retrospectively, do you think the bachelor has played a role in your own personal dating life and how you've perceived love um so my husband joined the bachelor watching but joined bachelor nation right when we started dating and i guess it was 20 2009 or. It was a long time ago. Then he tapped out recently. We were talking about earlier,

kind of as the show got a little bit more about social media stars and I don't want to sound whiny or get off my lawn because I still love it and enjoy it and have no problem with that. Say your piece. But he kind of lost interest in it. But it definitely, I feel like,

in the early years of our relationship, was something like a kind of refracted way to talk about our own relationship. When you say he lost interest, it wasn't like he was following cast members on social media. It was just the perception of why they were there? Yeah, I think so.

I think the sort of transparent business aspect of it, which doesn't bother me, but it does add a different layer to the show. What is your favorite of the three? I think I know this, but what is your favorite of the three shows? It's Paradise. Yes, which I call Bachelor Red Zone. I heard you say that. Bachelor Red Zone? Please explain why. It's absolutely right. And it's why I love it. But it's a great take from Mina.

But please. I was just explaining this to Andrew Siciliano, who does, he is the play-by-play analyst who also does Red Zone, which is, and he was my play-by-play analyst for these Rams games. It's an NFL product where during the regular season, it's a channel where it only cuts to NFL games when teams are in the red zone meaning they're about to score inside the 20s so you get all of the action and none of the like boring one-on-one dates that are drawn out and i love that it's all the yeah so like for the you know again for the people who may not know what the red zone is it's like as amina said it's like it's it's the part of the field where like you're right there.

And so usually things that happen, whatever happens in that, in that space is a big deal. Either the offense scores or the defense stops either way. It's momentum changing. And so it's like, why haven't we seen Hannah and Dylan for three episodes? They're just making out. They're hanging out at midfield and no one cares. Yeah. I mean, I didn't really care when they were in the red zone.

Oh, shade. So, yeah. I mean, so from a dating standpoint, you met your husband. But in terms of like how you approach dating before you met your husband, I mean, because to me, that's why I always say like The Bachelor has its longevity because it's of how relatable it is. And even when people hate watch it and snark watch it and like why men who traditionally aren't fans of the show can start watching it based off of they met a girl or wife or whatever. And they actually will get into it because they can relate to everything they're seeing. They get to watch these guys do and say things that I always call it the swinger moment, you know, on the movie Swingers, where Jon Favreau is leaving a bunch of voicemails,

and it's very easy to like cringe and be awkward while we, everyone has that moment in their dating life. Every single person has some time, a moment where they, they did something, they were like, I can't believe I did that. And it's so easy then to project that and criticize other people who are doing that. And I find that easy then to project that and criticize other people who are doing that. And I find that to be what makes it so relatable. Totally, especially now being 33 and watching some of the more recent seasons. It absolutely reminds me of things I did

or experienced in my early 20s. To go back to your question about me and my husband, I'm gonna bring this back to you because we did watch your seasons together. And I think for us, it was less about watching some of those early seasons we didn't necessarily relate in terms of oh i remember having this dating experience but we would always kind of like and dislike the same people and i think that is how you get invested in a show is you choose the people you care about or relate to yeah it's totally it's it's sports right it's totally it and um so i i am a nick hipster in that i feel like i remember this is gonna be so weird for you

but people came around on you in paradise but nick my nick sorry my husband's name is nick this is gonna be confusing and i were big fans of you in your first how many seasons first two seasons uh i've done four which again is a sensitive issue at this point because at this point don't be sensitive all right no no no this is couched in a compliment no no this is i'm talking about like how many times i've been on like it's no i'm on the anyways please continue okay we liked you during the first two seasons because i think both of us, and especially that very first season with Andy, my husband and I were like, this is the only guy we would know in real life. It reminds us of someone we might actually know. And we hated Josh Murray.

Even in the beginning? Yes. You saw through. Yeah, we were like, this D-bag bro is the worst. And he kept getting angry at you and with no like argument or logic or I'm letting you like relive this. No, it's a. So, yeah, it was very frustrating to watch. It's like lame bro, like kind of take control of the conversation.

I really appreciate that. I mean, I've always been a big fan of your work. So, like, people, like, it's people I respect that I like their work. If that's a compliment to say, I think I would hang out with them in person. It's probably the best compliment you can receive for someone who watches the show with, like, a critical eye. You said you had a josh story uh i'll keep this short no it years after i'll spare the details uh yeah he he sent me a uh upset tweet once and i think his mom did too because i wrote a his mom is notorious for uh having fake accounts and trolling you. This was her main account. No, I don't think it's on the internet.

But you might have tweeted something about Josh. No, I didn't. What? I did an article that was critical of a multi-level marketing company that he worked for. Oh, good for you. And it was about, it was like, I used to be an investigative journalist and now I do sports. And it was a sort of, it was an investigative piece about this. We're not, I own an essential oil company and the, I started it and it's, it's multi-level

marketing companies are very known in that space. Oh, I didn't know that. I'm not, I haven't been following the MLM space since this article. But it, like the essential oil industry itself really took off via multiple markets. Oh, yeah. I read a new... You know what? I did read a New York article about the most famous one or the biggest one.

Doe-tearing Young Living are the predominant. And they're very good at... So they kicked it off. But yes. So you wrote this critical thing. And then he... I didn't like it and i was laughing because i was like oh if you knew all the crap i've talked about so interesting enough he you

wrote this about this company josh being a member of it yeah having no idea that you're a bachelor no yeah and he didn't yeah and we were my friends and i watched that season i laughed about it because i didn't even know he was like a spokes or whatever. He has a, you know, an army or whatever. But yeah, he didn't like it. I think it's just his mom, to be honest. Honestly, though, the second guy, that guy walked on the screen, I knew. Really?

I didn't know that. I will say on Andy's season, we were pretty close for the first half. Like I was like, all right, he seems like an all right guy. You're just trying to make friends at first. It wasn't towards the end where it was. I think I've told this story before you just started audibly moaning. And I was like, at that point, I really liked Andy. And it was you're just kind of all it. What frustrated me and I think this connects to this week's bachelor in paradise is i hate watching the show when people get angry but they can never back up their anger and that's what made me so upset i felt like he was like gaslighting people into believing he was so upset at you but he never articulated an actual and it drove that

was nuts i mean you're you're referring to jpj yeah um and i will agree in the sense that watching jpj say and audibly said i know i have this sense that derrick is a bad guy and then says i have no evidence to back it up yeah i give him credit for actually saying that out loud and then proceeded to like condescend hayley and call her a little girl after he faked apologize he's like you're a big girl like i'm sorry but he gaslit her for um but it it definitely made me it like it took me back to my first couple years because i was hanging out with uh one of the the producers recently and like it's i'm very close with them now and once in a while the first couple seasons will come up and there's always this kind of like

yeah you got fucked like we're sorry like we had we had little to work with and you you tried the most in a season where we had no luke p or no chad and it was like fine and i always remember like the guys getting mad it was always like I got a rose and I'd always say sure you're mad can you explain why you're mad at me right and they would just yell at me and that like so it was like a sensitive thing so to hear JPJ do that it brought me back to to those first two seasons you tried the most that's what it was he was like he's trying. And we were like, yes, yes, we're watching.

And that would be it. He just, that was his argument, Josh Murray's argument was just, Nick's trying. Yeah, it was this, and I always find, the show plays on your insecurities. And it's that bubble of which you feel and you feel threatened. And it's very easy to believe your own narrative, whatever it is.

Like JPJ has decided that Derek is a bad guy because ultimately he probably feels the sense that Tayshia has been pursuing Derek. He feels he's powerless. Yeah, he's powerless. He's deciding to put it on Derek as opposed to put it on himself or Tayshia. Yeah. Because like those, you know, he's team JPJ and he's team Tayshia. So like musty.

And that's a youth thing. It's a youth thing. He's just jealous. I mean, he's watching him and how this has played out. You're right. It's him not wanting to confront the reality or the uncomfortable truth. So the fact that this woman's clearly not that into him.

Or maybe she doesn't. Right. Like at that moment. Maybe she doesn't what? Like him. Oh. I mean, I was actually surprised, not to fast forward, that she ultimately. Me too.

Where did that come from? It's strange editing. Yeah. It's like, wait. There's probably some stuff we didn't see. Probably. Yeah. But she clearly pursued Derek.

Right. And she seemed to be blown. She seemed to be only, what, into JPJ out of like, I mean, you're here and you like me, so I'll take your rose. And then she seems to go down that path. I don't dislike him. And I hate pulling the age card because it feels, and I don't think it's fair all the time watching the show. There are 24-year-olds on the show who don't think it's fair all the time watching the show.

There are 24-year-olds on the show who are more mature than 30-year-olds on the show. I notice it more with the men. Yeah. Some of the young men really remind me of young men of my youth. And he is one of them. Watching him scream about Derek and lash out, it just reminds me of frat guys I knew in college getting upset and drinking. I don't know. It brings me back.

Did you always feel like... The thing interesting about JPJ is that up into maybe a little bit last episode and this episode, everyone... I mean, JPJ was a unanimous fan favorite. Here's this interesting, weird, good-looking guy. And then out of nowhere, this darkness. Were you on top of that were you always like critical of jpj or were you a fan i was not critical i enjoyed him because he's

kind of a human meme right yes like and also brings something very different to the show which we haven't seen before like we haven't seen this personality archetype on this program. So I completely enjoyed it. What's the personality archetype? Well, surfer bro poet. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, for the same reason you suggest that your husband has stopped watching it. And I will agree.

And we talked a lot about this with Tanner is there's definitely recently a level of inauthenticity that you're seeing with cast members where you can just tell that you're seeing with cast members where you just you can just tell that they're so just all their their only end goal is to not look bad and you have jpj who's this kind of like truly being himself whatever that is yeah and that's fun to watch i think on this season in particular you've noticed more people talking about their reputation right with the blake thing like he's going through

this whole psychodrama with the added layer that he is thinking about how it's all playing out and that's new right to the show i think i think it's a new element people being self-conscious about how this is gonna play out on the internet um and you're right there's something like pure and weird about him that's really entertaining but he's he's a what is he 24 he's 24 yeah he's a 24 year old dude i mean i i get it i i'm the contrast between how him and derrick have handled literally everything that happens is such a case study and like men at different points in their lives totally it's stark and i i i'm glad i was not on this show at 24, 25, 26, because of all the things that you see the JPJ or Dylan do. You know, Dylan, people seem to like him,

but if you're going to criticize Dylan, it's just he's so unobjectively obsessed with Hannah. Right. But as a young 22, 23-year-old guy, I think young men, when they find that girl they have a crush on, they become puppy dogs. Totally. I think all young men do they find that girl they have a crush on they become puppy dogs like a i think all young men do and you're seeing that with dylan where it's just like i don't care whatever i'm doing it for love you know like yeah i i mean i'm sure he's also never been

like around like a model like i mean i mean not never no i don't know about him but i'm just saying like it yeah there's situational factors here that he makes sense. Sure, but I don't think Hannah is the first good-looking girl that Derek has met. By the way, I believe JPJ when he says Tayshia's like the hottest girl he's probably met. Yeah, I believe that. She's uniquely attractive. I can't even look at the screen. No, no, he is. I'm sorry.

San Diego. I'm sure he's met a lot of attractive women. I should rephrase that. I think that there's a lot of ingredients in this cocktail that explain age, the particular woman who's there, him wanting. Yeah, it's all stuff that happens to 24 year old guys. The interesting thing about Paradise, and this has always been the case, maybe since the second season of Paradise, is that there's always this perceived star going into Paradise, specifically with the women, example on my season. She was the runner up and then announced that she was going on Paradise at my AFR. And she was a fan favorite.

And, you know, cute girl goes down. And it's just like all the new guys going in will think, if I can hitch my wagon to that, I'm going to be a star because she's a star. And that's like, there's definitely conversations about that. Like Hannah G was that person this season going in who's perceived runner up. Everyone likes her, has a huge following. And so I'm not to take anything away from these women, but there's this added sense of...

It inflects all of their decision making. I was thinking about that when hannah g was i love to hear your take on this deciding between blake and dylan at the beginning at that point i imagine in the show blake was like a tier one instagram person and dylan's and i'm sure that calculus is somewhere and and it doesn't mean she's being inauthentic necessarily but it's high school i mean you're looking it literally is walking into the cafeteria and there's the the popular dude and there's another dude and of course it impacts how especially since their presence in paradise is in part a

business decision for themselves uh yeah i mean i actually tweeted something to that effect where i had like these little my meme or like it had a picture it was the three of them and that little debate on the beach dylan hannah and blake yeah and over blake's head it says has 600 more followers and the other one was over dylan is smart funny super into me and she and over her it said decisions are hard you know and that's it's logical i i i truly think in hannah's case and i ever met her i heard she's very nice is that i think her biggest struggle was she came into paradise ultimately with the business decision in mind of i'm going to end up with blake and only to realize that hey dylan's a pretty nice guy i

kind of like him and you know what i'm just going to go with the authentic relationship versus the one i planned on being in when this all ended. Isn't that interesting, though, watching the show now, like knowing that those second level decisions are in the back of people's minds? Which is why I kind of disagree with, like, say, Rochelle has always wondered, like, well, is this the beginning of the end? And I think that the producers have always been great. And they just use all that to create interesting storylines. They kind of break that fourth wall of... I think the show has become more interesting

that way to like the Hannah and Jed, where the show continues outside of the show on the social media and people are watching these lives unfold. The show doesn't end when the person proposes or doesn't propose. It doesn't end till AFR proposes or doesn't propose it doesn't end till afr now or the after show because all the things that are now happening with cast members in between and going to stagecoach it's like it it's became it makes it more and more interesting this season in particular when all the blake caitlin stuff was unfolding early on i was wondering to myself what percentage of the audience is aware of this subplot going on the internet right now and i think it's a pretty split i some people have no idea based on conversations i have and some people like myself are following

along the line as well yeah they need like an after show of like listen this is all the stuff going on on social media just to get everyone on the same page well do you think that's the people who do that as like the is it an age difference or people who are just active on social versus not i think it's active on social versus not i think it's just how big of a fan are you of the show like i really i'm a big fan so i have to follow that conversation as well so do you like do you just adapt to the times or have you always you like it more now versus then or is it just the purest in you because i do notice a difference in fans versus someone who's always watched it versus say someone who's watched it for three or four seasons now i

think for me it's just so heavily dependent on the lead. I love the season of The Bachelorette because I found Hannah Brown to be incredibly authentic and engaging. I think she was the best. I think she was wonderful. I haven't seen them all. And then I didn't particularly enjoy Colton's season for the opposite reason. So I think to answer your question, it doesn't really. The time, the time,

the difference in the nature of the contestants and what they're there for, it doesn't really bother me. It's all about the people involved and whether I relate to them. I thought it was interesting on this season, or these two episodes, I don't particularly find the Clay and Nicole

love story that interesting, but I found the topic in terms of what was going on fascinating where it was this angela shows up and nicole and clay are both equally losing their shit and they constantly just keep saying i don't care i'm super confident in this relationship and again similar to j to JPJ projecting onto Derek is like, here is Angela getting the wrath of these two were like, she literally just showed up and they're just freaking out. I just thought that was how often in life do we constantly blame someone, some third party for all of our insecurities and constantly talk about, you know, I don't care. I'm not into it. And then

they start like criticizing said person and they're just proving how much they do care or do have feelings. Or how unstable their actual relationship is, right? If you're bothered by that. I mean, how did you feel about Angela coming or being there? Me in general? Yeah, I'm curious because that was something that struck me you know they as a character yeah or just like would you okay if your ex you still have feelings where was still was in this situation would you walk into it uh if i'm angela yeah like do you what do you think the motives are? Well, it could be either, right? If you're Angela,

it doesn't really say one thing or another, right? In the sense that it could mean that she still has feelings and that she's there to shake it up of what she's being accused for. She definitely has feelings. We can just say that. Sure, or she could just be totally indifferent because for all the things we talked about before,

she just wants to go on Paradise 2. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, but there's this conversation about who has the right to be here. And it's really, it is a business conversation as much as anything. If she's saying,

Clay's here. Why did they ride on her car? I am surprised that you have, Michelle, that you can say that with such confidence because if you look at how Angela handled herself,

how Clay handled herself, herself how clay handled herself and how nicole handled herself angela was the only one who's like yeah i'm here to date right she seemed super chill very and that could all be great acting in her part but she controlled her emotions way more and seemed to be the most indifferent about that situation to me that looked like a person who truly was kind of over it no she's not over it she told mike she wasn't over it and why'd they write on her card the end of your love story like they're setting it up doesn't i i'm not debating whether the producers are introducing angela's potential like it was three months ago and she wanted to marry him i'm only speaking to the

aspect of how angela like handled the situation. She handled it well. And if you're someone who, let's take this in the real world, you get invited to a wedding and your ex is going to be there, right? You're both friends with the bride and groom. I don't blame her. And that other person has moved on seemingly with they're going to bring a date and you show up solo. Angela handled it like a rock star, seemingly seemingly fine to be able to go up to the new girl or to the ex and introduce yourself and be like yeah this is great i'm having a good time nothing will nothing bothered nicole more than the fact that angela seems so chill about it

yeah i mean she seemed chill but you can tell under the surface she's bubbling but i'm just i'm with her there i i think she handled it well. She did. Super smoothly. When she had that conversation where she's like, I'm not a drama person, which is the number one thing people say. Yes.

Totally. But she clearly still has feelings for him, clearly was hiding it. But my question is, why are you there? Okay, because you're a gorgeous gal.

You can meet guys where you're not there to find love. Revenge. But it's a combination of I think, to go back back and i swear i'm not going to keep saying this but obviously it's good for her from a financial perspective to be i mean it's i'm i'm fine with it she has as much right as him in that view sure when she says i have as much right to be here yeah what she's saying is hey he gets to be here and increases instagram followers so do i so and i cool but i also think you're not there unless you're you have feelings for the guy like you're

not just there to be a single and meet guys if your ex is there that doesn't make any sense that's fine why can't why why do they have to be combined i mean to your point if we're talking if we're talking about this from a business aspect. And again, listen, I agree in that sense. And I've always, it has changed. But I've always said people, no one who isn't delusional goes on that show for love. They have always traditionally gone for what was seemingly a really unique experience. Yes.

And that was authentic. And now it has changed a little bit with this perceived playbook with social media that it's like, it's straight up like, and I've heard new cast members, like they are going for followers. That's a thing. They talk about it. It wasn't a thing four years ago that like it was. And so anyways, so in that sense why can't angela just for that reason

want the excitement of being on tv and maybe more followers and it really has nothing to do with clay i mean there's clay is there it's part of the equation it's part of it she knows yeah so you can't take it out all of the things at the same time can we talk about theirs talk though because i found that the most oh yes i would love to talk about that was crazy that was the most authentic open the komodo i have seen on the bachelor ever i am so with you tell me tell me why i'm curious well i'll yeah okay so they're talking about why their relationship fell apart yes and he you don't ever get to see this never you don't actually get to hear why two people weren't compatible it's just oh i feel this way my journey yeah you're my person they

never get specific and it drives me nuts this conversation got specific yes and i loved it because he he told her they start talking about their lifestyles and and their jobs and how they want different things and he says to her you wanted to be a wife and a mother and which wow yeah and i i'm not sure i'm like you wanted me to be that provider and she gets indignant she says she has goals too and it was super real right like that's why people break up yeah we never get to see that on this show i was fascinated me too i felt the same way that's because you're like oh what she's hot he's hot why can't they be together and it's like oh well they have different goals yes yeah i mean i give the show credit that way in the sense that they have gotten better again at adapting to paradise this new show of paradise

and the fact that these people are now like angela and clay were two people who weren't on the show at the same time and met via the show and they dated. And then as a result of them both coming back, we had an opportunity not to watch their relationship play out, but watch their breakup play out on TV. And the show does a good job of capturing that. What did you think about that wife and mother comment? That was kind of like... It was real. Yeah.

Do you criticize clay for admitting to that on television no i don't think he said it to be hurtful i think there's a way to interpret that as being critical you know per se and i can see why she was defensive about it but i think it probably was an honest and accurate summation of why they broke up i i appreciated it yeah i mean he must be going through a lot because he's no longer playing, right? I was thinking about that because I've seen that play out a lot. See? When an NFL

player realizes their career's over. Oh, sure. It's a crazy transition. There were rumors he broke up with Angela to go on The Bachelor in Paradise just so he could become an influencer because he was no longer getting that cash flow. I mean, who knows about all those rumors because that can come from just a random assumption but you're right i mean his story was interesting because i when he got casted i thought it was really interesting

here's a cast sorry he he was an active nfl player yes usually not the case he actually i was like oh i think i like streamed that guy in fantasy one year. And I always thought it was interesting because I didn't know who he was at the time. And I'm a pretty diehard sports fan. And I'm a Packer fan. So he played for the Lions. And I'm like, how have I not? So which means that he wasn't necessarily a star.

Definitely. And I thought it was a risk on his part to go on The Bachelor as someone who is arguably very replaceable for an NFL team. And I got like the NFL is a kind of a good old boys club. And there's a lot of reasons why they can just decide not to bring you back. Yeah. And it seemed like a huge risk on his part that completely backfired. And then like the terrible irony that he hurt himself on a flag football game.

That was bad. It's just a really bad look. And then now he's a hurt NFL football player who's like third string. It just really, God, I mean, the demons he might feel as a result of his choice to first go on. I think then was near for him anyways. And he was pretty aware of that. I was a lot of guys, nfl players nfl players the margins are from what i've heard in these casting conversations for obvious reasons um and so i don't think i'm sure i doubt he regrets going i don't know i can't speak to his mindset but you

think he may have been over anyways i think so but if you've spent your and this is i'll just speak to the nfl side of things that's something i cover if you spend your whole life working towards this and it's funny we talk about clay like oh he was end of roster guy every end of the roster guy in the nfl is the best football player from his town right the best player at every level it's the craziest thing right and so he's probably spent his whole life working one thing i don't know what he's in his late 20s 30 now or something. And now, like every NFL player, he has to go through this crazy transition where he is questioning,

what am I going to do next? And it's natural that that would also cause him to question, what do I want out of a partner? Does this person at the same phase? I think it's really interesting. Me too. Well, Tyler was talking on our podcast

about the same thing where he didn't, I don't know the terms, make the cut. I don't know. Didn't make the roster roster and then he applied to like five different things he applied to bachelor dancing with the stars i don't know not dancing uh wwe wrestling oh my god really uh like actively like really wow bachelor was a backup plan this all really worked out for him his wwe dream i i mean i feel like like the WWE might be a nice play for him.

For Clay? Yeah. For Tyler. I was going to say Clay would be a great WWE wrestler. I don't think Clay has a personality. They could do like a reverse, like the meek, quiet. Yes, I like that. I like Clay.

I'm a big Clay fan. You are? Yeah. I find him to be really interesting. I like his voice. I like the way he talks. Yeah. You don't find him to be really interesting i like his voice i like the way he talks yeah you don't find him to be really safe and boring no um i i i like watching him make decisions because i think they're really unexpected and obviously not only because of his physical

appearance like the contrast between what you might expect out of this alpha bro football player and but um i i just like different personalities on the show. He is unique in that sense. And his personality doesn't seem to fit his body type. I love that. I think that's really interesting. Cute. Do you think he's a critical thinker?

We'll see. We still got a few episodes. I think I like the way he's handled, not like I approve, but I think the way he's handled all like I approve but I think the way he's handled all of the drama on this show so far particularly his earlier confrontation with Annalise has led me to believe he is like a real human

who I don't doubt that he's a yes I find it to be very genuine I don't find him intriguing but I like him I can be I find that his I find him to be I agree that I find him to be as sincere as anyone there. He's thinking less about some of the other ancillary Instagram aspects and thinking more about his genuine intentions.

I think the Annalise thing, he was just so in the right and she was so in the wrong. It was hard for him not to look good. But I do think recently he's just so in the right and she was so in the wrong it was hard for him not to look good but i do think recently like he just obsessive like i have the right to be here and why is she here i just thought it was kind of almost arrogant and presumptuous on his part of like why does like that kind of bugged me the wrong way or it's just like the idea of he staked claim to this opportunity and then she got to go last time and now it's my turn. And I always thought that kind of rubbed me the wrong way about Clay.

And again, it was throwing Angela under the bus for what clearly is two insecure people regarding their relationship, Nicole and Clay, you know, constantly saying how confident they are, et cetera, et cetera. Nicole pretending she's confident and then throwing Angela under the bus and Clay broke up with Angela. Right.

I mean, it wasn't if Angela like cheated on Clay and left him, he broke up with her. And then- He hasn't maligned her character at all. Not at all. He's just been like, this sucks for me. I agree with you. It's not fair.

I think, though, he might be perhaps thinking through some of these second level issues that they're not allowed to talk about. Like, okay, with regards to Angela's, we were kind of discussing why do people go to Paradise? What do they want to get out of it? I'm sure that's inflecting how he views this situation, which doesn't make it fair because he's doing the same thing i agree i just love this storyline personally you i love this storyline the nicole and clare the ex coming back i don't know i think it's great yeah it makes i that i find that interesting i thought that was the most relatable storyline of the of these two episodes is the shitting on the x and the and the new relationship and the new girl getting very insecure about the old the old flame so to speak

and just two people just not being honest of where they are uh in that situation it was just very evident and yeah they just were never they i think nicole and clay's their relationship really in that situation, it was just very evident. And yeah, they just were never, I think Nicole and Clay's, their relationship really took a beating these past couple episodes because like no one can believe in that relationship anymore. Tough look for Nicole and Tayshia too making fun of Angela, I thought.

Little mean girl. Well, it's like the kind of thing where you would have it in a group text with your friends. And, you know, like we mercilessly roast people behind closed doors, but I think forgot. Maybe they forgot or weren't sort of self-aware about how it might play on camera. Sure. I mean, I think that's kind of how they make the show is people surprisingly forget that there's a camera three feet from you or that you're mic'd. You just really do forget.

You get really comfortable but i mean i like taisha if she's on her podcast but she she kind of comes across there's always these glimpses throughout this season that she's a bit of a mean girl yeah that she's kind of a quiet assassin and that she's you know she has she's a beautiful woman she's smart too she's. And she is in her own way, a little clever in terms of like, she knows when to poke certain things and let play. She created this whole Derek and JPJ drama. I mean, drama,

drama, drama. What did I say? I don't know. But she, had she just stayed in her lane with JPJ and not like, try to convince JPJ to go out with other women so she could pursue derrick or been up front with jpj like hey derrick didn't come after me i'm never said that right and it

always bugged me it always like the thing about the taisha uh situation last week what bugged me is a classic case of someone pretending to be honest but totally not you know she was trying all tasha was trying to do she wasn't trying to be honest with jpj she was trying to get herself out of a situation without looking bad which makes by the way the editing of this particular week all the more befuddling because i interpreted it the exact same way as you i was like oh she's clearly trying to extricate herself from this relationship with this young dude who she was kind of intrigued by and then boom she's suddenly pursuing him again and derrick's out i didn't understand that it really came out of nowhere yeah i don't and there's only yeah and why do people keep saying jpj so smart i don't see that

he uses big words hold on people like wow he also like, wow. He also, he's like, oh. He makes up words. Does he use them correctly? I'll say a couple things about that environment. I might have mentioned this before. I think I'm a smart enough person. I never thought I was breaking records in the smart department, so to speak. On my first season, and every season is different in terms of who casts

but i worked for a company i sold software i worked with a lot of smart people and i'll never forget on my first season on any season i've never been told so often how smart i was by my peers constantly then i was just like i'm not guys like i don't and every day it's like dude you're just so smart oh boy and i was just like i'm really like my whole life i've surrounded myself with people where i felt like i i was smart enough to be in this group you know and so it depends right so why people are calling jpj so smart it there might be a little bit of that there i don't know um also he's just so i think sometimes people confuse interesting and smart and you can be smart and emotionally uh immature which and i think that's what jpj is is i don't know whether he's

smart or not but i do know he's incredibly emotionally immature. And right now, that's making him come across as not smart. Do you know the archetype of the manic pixie dream girl? Yes! Oh, my God. From indie movies? Oh, my God. JPJ is like a male manic pixie dream girl. What is that?

That's Natalie Portman in Garden State. Yeah, in Garden State. Natalie Portman. She's a quintessential. Or what's it? 500 Days of Summer. It's another great example of Zoe Dacian. Yeah.

It's like this indie movie archetype of this quirky girl who has like weird interests and disrupts your normal life yeah and really there might not be that much depth there but men perceive her to be this kind of and i that the sort of fascinating character and that's how i see him that's hilarious yeah i think that's a great he's like you said he's just uniquely different and that's a great thing for the show because the show uh the cast members more often edit themselves to be a very vanilla version of themselves and then you have the producers who are what they're most good at is getting people to get to be their most outrageous selves so often when you have here cast members complain about producers in the press

for making them do something that they thought they should do it really was nah you kind of why you probably wanted to do that and maybe they're showing in a way that's dramatized and exaggerated but you said that and you probably in the moment said it and it probably felt liberating yes and that's what you really wanted to say what you really wanted to say and you don't like how it was perceived can i ask you something having been on the show do you think someone like sydney say like i've just pretty normal normal like i love her girl like do you think while she's on the show she's aware that she's probably not going to be on the show a lot because she's not giving them what they want or like being

a character sometimes i think they pick up on that i also think going back to when we're watching these cast members you almost see them trying to think about how the show is going to play out it's they often don't have a an awareness about the show or what kind of storyline they the producers might be going down and it might air differently than they thought so they're you know what i'm saying like they'll leave a situation being like yeah i won that you know and only only for it to like look terrible i i'm certain that throughout the season blake had moments of this isn't going well for me and other moments of me

just working overtime yeah and so I think a lot of cast members especially ones that maybe just don't have I had a very fortunate unique experience where I was on it enough early on and I was

every time I was on it I was on it the whole show and then I built these relationships and just my personnel and I would always ask I was just fascinated by the production side and the producers let me in so to speak and by the time I was the lead they had there was a lot of trust between both parties and so I probably was let into that side more than most and so i was able to kind of see that and so when i was living it i could i you know i'm completely just flipping this on you asking questions do you feel like your curiosity about the process this sort of meta conversation obviously a curiosity i share based on conversation is what turned bros against you the fact that you actually gave a shit about the inner workings of it all uh well specifically on andy's season it was a we talk

about this it was just a uniquely broey season relative to other seasons where there's generally a large contingent of bros or the fratty kind of mentality and he was uniquely broey and broey in the sense that they had a hard time finding the luke peas or the chads because everyone there just as long as we drink beers and laugh together it everyone's a good guy man like yeah man go have your time you're a great guy we're great we're the top four again it was josh me josh chris and mark crispy was or chris oh chris souls wow and then who and oh marcus wow yeah marcus um right even the other other guys so they're that particular and so for that again if you go back why i was the the the villain that season was because I got Andy Flowers.

And you were starved. In the sense that I tried and that I was, I've always been an analytical person and I've always thought strategically in that sense. And so when other guys would be like, well, you know, you had these, what's called man chats. Do you think Brian's gonna come back for his date? No, no, no, no.

He's such a good guy. Like, of course i would be the guy who just couldn't help myself be like well i don't think she likes them you know like i don't know if she does it's just more like an honest thought who broke the bro code who calls the man chats the producers i think when they circle everyone interesting you know like when you would sit down and like that is calm and then the next season you were with the ultimate bro the gym bro um sean sean well in the next season i actually liked my edit i thought i had a very fair edit but i came in already as the bad guy doing a bad

thing showing up late right yes so i had to fight that i was starting six feet under yeah and i got back at the end of the season i felt like i was in a neutral position like no but i felt like people i had my husband had the same experience we were like that dude sucks and it sean sean right and it seemed like actually most of america seemed to like him i remember well again you see that in a siloed thing a lot yeah a lot of people did it was a very much team nick there was okay there was a bit more split he was definitely probably more liked uh really that season i think since then he's like a walking kettlebell things have gotten out uh yeah but you i think you might be a little

bit that is like a blue state red Red State situation, I feel like. Well, they do... They kind of, sometimes it is. People do take sides and they do see teams. And like he, I guess in theory, got a slightly... If had I, had Caitlin picked me, Sean would have been an epic villain. I'll say that much. Oh, they would have changed the...

I mean, the whole season, there was like a vein on his neck that was about to burst it's not so much just so worried it's not so much that they it's not so much they would have changed it but the winner usually gets the benefit of the doubt and there might be things that they just won't show out of the sake of the relationship he's not the first person who there's been plenty of winners and usually winners who get the josh was one of them sean was one of them there's been women yours oh yeah i mean yeah who knows yeah uh who have there are a lot of things maybe not shown yeah that's what i um and they they could have been truly awesome villains. They could have really, yes.

Had they been not the winner. And Sean might have been one of those. Talking about producing, what do you guys think of that Matt Donald, the editing after the kiss? Oh, my God. The, like, 10-minute montage. Oh, right, yeah, with the football. That was insane.

I'm forgetting about that. There was a volcano explosion. You met the farmer. Oh, the farmer. right yeah with the football that was insane i'm forgetting there was a volcano explosion at this point in the show right if you're coming on your comic relief for the most part right and so they were just giving him the comic you're trying to get a moment out of these yeah they're just like what can what kind of entertainment can we get how funny he couldn't kiss her but he could take his shirt off and get towel down by jk no problem kissing brie the model like immediately on oh they went on a second date i love friendship moments on the show i wish they showed them more often they almost yeah they they never do and i remember i would i would get very defensive

on that because one of the criticisms i had on andy and caitlyn season's like these guys don't like you i'm like no you're just not showing any of my friendship moments versus the other ones you're showing because so and so has has three friends who decided they like him and he doesn't like me and it's it's so high school it's it really is who was your best friend from those seasons it's it has changed i mean i and on andy's season i was closest with mar and JJ, the pants-a-preneur. Oh, JJ, yeah. I forgot about him. Really interesting and smart guys. And it has changed.

Like I became friends with Chris Solds closer after the season. Caitlin's season was much different just because all those guys were very friendly. I was really nervous and they were all really friendly and nice to me except for Sean. But Sean was

kind of the ringleader and they were kind of like reluctantly kind of like kept me at arm's length Tanner was like I don't really give a shit so he was cool with me and since post show some of the like you Ben and Jared you need you know have become very close friends and also they've also lost touch with Sean uh so there's a little bit of that um and part of it again it's high school so they were like i don't know if i can talk to this guy like he's the bad guy he's interesting he's the you know and so there's a little bit of that be so bad at these shows how uh am i the only one who thought the uh attempt at the when harry met sally moment that blake thought he had for Christina was the most

awkward profession of love in the history of the show. I think they were making it awkward also. They knew it was awkward. They weren't trying to make it romantic. No, I'm talking about the... But it was in fact awkward, not the show made it awkward. I think both. I mean, they could have edited that in a way, like giving us little breadcrumbs leading up to it like they just they just brought it immediately but i made it seem as abrupt and artificial as it came across i again we've talked a little bit about editing obviously on this the show always attempts to tell the story that happened and you know and then and then they try to make it more interesting let me ask you this

then do you think it was genuine at all or do do you think this is Blake, you know, doing what we discussed, which is the calculation of how can I turn this ship around? I think it's 100% the latter. And it's not to take anything away that I think that him and Christina are very close. They're friends. They've hooked up. It's just this weird dynamic. But his, I think in this moment, he is so, things have gone so poorly for him. I feel so bad. I say with confidence that Blake went into Paradise thinking one of two things. I'm either gonna be engaged to Hannah G or I'm the next Bachelor. Yikes.

I think he was that confident about how Paradise was going to play out for him. Yeah. And it just has gone epically terrible for him and i think it's a combination of one i don't know if he's particularly bright and two i think he was just incredibly arrogant about his edit he got on becca's season and i think it was so beloved and so liked that he didn't think any of his actions for the next 12 months would ever matter. And that he was just going to come in and he was going to be this prodigal son.

And it's gotten so bad that now he's sitting there in his head. Yes. Well, I'll throw that in as well. I think he, adding to what you said, he is very sensitive. And the people who tend to seem to do well in this environment are the demis of the world. People who are unflappable and able to kind of power through difficult situations or this, if you have that secondary, like, what is my edit like, can just shut aside. He cannot.

He is clearly crumpling a bit and is not good at being on TV in some ways. I would agree. I mean, the thing that when I talk about having me go on, the thing that I'm most grateful for is I was able to, for whatever reason, to say, whatever, I'll worry about that later. Yes. When I showed up on Caitlyn's season, I really, I talked about, showed up for the girl and it was like, I've made this choice to do this.

And at this point, all i can just do is go for her and hope that it works out for me because the rest was just you just get in the weeds and that's when that's when the show really has you because every time you make one move they'll make a counter move and they'll like one time you think you're doing this and it becomes almost just like oh you think you can do this you think you control your own fine fuck you there's definitely that if you just be your most authentic but i will say again the producers love authenticity they they want authentic moments the show wants real moments they don't like it when people come in try to manipulate the situation when When they do,

they will leverage that and then use it against you to create new authentic situations based off the fact that things didn't play out the way you hoped they would. And that's how they do it. But I think the show wants authentic moments, which is why they surprise people all the time. Because the thought is, we're not actors. Right. And so you can act in a believable way. But what you can do is react to situations we're going to create. Like the Demi, which we don't have to relitigate. I know that's been an ongoing storyline. I think that combines those elements that you're discussing of situations that are heavily produced with authentic reactions.

Yeah. And that's what the show has always been is staged in environments and paradise has just less less and less rules man it seems like a lot of stuff went down at that wedding we didn't get to see everyone's like oh they really hit it off at the wedding right why didn't we get to see that well it was also weird because they showed Clay come in. They showed from Desiree's season. Good guy. Took third. He's the one who left. Why can I think of his name?

Brooke, thank you. Brooke. He showed up. And like they didn't talk about. He's a really good looking guy. I find him so good looking. And that season was a crazy ending. I mean, whatever. I'll say this. Like in person, he's that really good looking guy i find him so good looking and that season was a crazy ending i mean whatever i'll say this like in person he's that much better looking really oh i knew it i

was heartbroken when he left he's uh when i that was the first season i've ever seen because it was right before andy's season so i kind of watched it as kind of a what am i getting myself into he seemed fine and then i met him in person and like as a guy competing you're like i get it you're a really handsome guy i get why you broke desiree's heart yeah all right i see it like you uh yeah you uh anyways uh but he you know he was at the wedding and he uh got no time also to that point where to all these other people i know brooks he's a smart he's interesting he's a corky he's eccentric but he's good looking and you would think he would come down there and clean up no Instagram following but like he's a nobody yeah and no one knows that right yeah that world so it's like Connor yeah I can't do that

Connor Demi's impression of yeah so funny that was so funny Dem of decided to be on the bay why is he here go back to your van um yeah well i'd like uh when when dean when dean comes back christina really threw dina bone where again that's so like young guys versus old guys yes and all all the young guys are haters of the other guys like they're the well you you jpj kind of does especially with the younger guys and i talked about this last week where when i was a younger guy and i had a girlfriend friend or a girl if i if if she was hanging with a guy who was even three years older than me i was such a hater of that guy and the and the criticism was always like that's creepy old dude's a creep, the old guy.

And JPJ calls Derek a creep. Right, yes. Connor calls Dean creepy. Blake's like 30, by the way. So I was shocked when I learned that information. And Derek's 30, 31 or whatever. And then JPJ is this, you know, Connor, 24-year-old guy. Dean, 28, 27.

And then Christina's like, goes to Connor. He's like, yeah, I'm not worried. And Christina's like, have you ever met Dean? He's like, no. And she just laughs. Yeah, I love that. It was good. It was like kind of putting him in his place.

Yeah. You guys like. Right. Don't underestimate Dean. He has a personality. He has charisma. Dean is one of my favorite people from the show because he's just going to be who he is.

And when he showed up from Paradise literally with rags on and a mustache because he's like, I don't care. It was very transparent about everything. I think he's gotten a great edit this whole, even leaving Kaylin on her birthday or whatever. I think the way he's handled it. Yeah.

His playbook has been, I really don't care right and he's not coming across as deceitful he's not coming across as a tool he's just being himself yeah i mean and when i went on paradise the only thing i thought about like was uh i'm just not going to lie i don't care when i go home like i had a feeling that I might be there for most of the season, but I didn't really know for sure. And the producers don't promise you. And I showed up and like, you know, Jen and I had talked a little bit before and whatever. And I remember Jen was like, well, are you going down? And I'm like, well, listen, but I don't know when we're going to show up and I'm just not going to lie. So I'm going to tell people that like, I'm waiting for you and I hope you show up. But until then, if you don't, I'm probably going to go on other dates,

but I'm going to tell those people like, yeah, you can ask me But until then, if you don't, I'm probably gonna go on other dates, but I'm gonna tell those people like, yeah, you can ask me on a date, but like just, you know, if Jen shows up and then all you have to do is just be so brutally honest. Be honest, yeah. And I've been said this about like the Jed situation or whatever, even Blake. Had Blake shown up for Paradise

and instead of like pretending the past year didn't happen and just was brutally honest about like how many people he slept with, I think the viewers would have been like, happen and just was brutally honest about like how many people he slept with i think the viewers would have been like that's just refreshing and honest good for blake yeah i get it he wanted to have sex totally relatable it's the lying that always gets you in trouble especially to the viewer because you're not thinking about you're not thinking about your dishonesty through the lens of other people having additional pieces of information about you yeah and then obviously we're watching with all of that.

We're gonna play a little game that we play with our guests. Can I ask her a question really quick? So we get a lot of people write in to ask Nick questions and a lot of women actually write in about working in male dominated workplaces that they struggle. And I just like think that you're really awesome.

And if you had any tips or any experiences you wanted to share about that. yeah i it's very male dominated um and it's also it's funny as we're talking about the the show and the age difference it's also when i'm around football players they're usually younger than me and i kind of feel this way actually it's funny we talked a little bit so nick's a packers fan for people who don't know. And we talked about a story I did in Aaron Rodgers. And him and I had this conversation because he's my, he's I think a year older than me.

And being in the quarterback of an NFL team, it is like being the Chris Bukowski of, because every year, like him and I had a joke that Fast Times line that Matthew McConaughey, right? Which is, they keep getting younger. I stay the same age. Not Fast Times. Shoot.

One of those other. Dazed and Confused. Dazed and Confused. And that's what it's like being a quarterback. Your receivers are getting younger and, you know, the Packers let, all of your favorite targets are getting cut and old know you're the packers let all of your favorite targets are getting cut and old and do you find in that in that industry because like you're still you're you're a young person right and so a senior citizen in the back your two passions are football

and bachelor of which a lot of the casts are again they kind of bring and it's gotten younger are you constantly reminded of like do you feel older as a result of the casts are, again, they kind of bring in, it's gotten younger. Are you constantly reminded of like, do you feel older as a result of who you're covering constantly? Because you're not old. It's actually a benefit because it makes me less nervous. And I don't know if you feel this way as well, because I think you're probably interacting with a lot of younger cast members, people like that who come into your space and i'll tell you a story leaving the last rams game i i was on the wrong bus and i was with all the rookies um who are like 22 right and i was just listening to them talk and i was like man i don't know i don't understand

what the hell they're talking about like this is a generational divide but i'm also not nervous around them at all because i I'm an adult woman. Whereas if I had been 25 or I would have been so awkward. And so I think it can be a little bit alienating, but I also feel much more comfortable with myself than I did when I was that age. How many of the, uh, athletes start who start to get to know you and cover you? Like, are, do they come sometimes to you for like advice ever and like you've been working in the nfl for a while a lot of people will come like these players will come in sure and like you've seen the landscape you've covered veterans you're you're you know they might have known that you covered say aaron rogers are you they asking for

your advice are they treating you differently than say some of the male writers like how what's that dynamic they definitely treat me differently from some of the male writers? Like what's that dynamic? They definitely treat me differently from some of the male writers, I think, and not in a bad way. Everybody always assumes it's like animal house and you're this horrible environment. Athletes are the most cool and normal with me. It's all the other people who suck. Oh, like who? Oh, you know, like people on the internet and some people in the industry and people on the business side of things i i very rarely have gender related issues with athletes and especially you see it more with your your peers yeah or just fans and you know horrible like trolls you told a story on on

bill simmons podcast how on the super bowl versus the Eagles on the Nick Foles flea flicker touchdown or whatever, where you jumped in excitement and how that was seemingly unprofessional to what was probably a bunch of old white Boston, New England writers. And I thought to myself when listening to that is like,

well, why is that? And is that not more charming and interesting? Why I like you as a fan of your work is that you, you talk openly about your fandom as a Seahawks fan and then objectively cover the NFL. And it always bothered me covering other writers is that they pretend that they're not fans cause they think that's what they're supposed to do.

And then it's transparent in their work. And it seemed in that sense, almost inauthentic, the same way you would watch The Bachelor where it was just like, I don't believe you. I've enjoyed hearing your passions for the game and then analytical approach to it. And I just find, I like that you're, again, you're young for the industry.

So like, I like how that is changing the industry as a sports fan and do you think that's the direction it's going or do you feel a little bit um the pressure to kind of do the way the things have or do you think you're yeah mix it up i think it's that what you're describing is less of a gender thing and more of an age yeah absolutely um but actually thing, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But actually, you mentioned Bill Simmons, who I was talking to on the podcast, who's older, but he's always been that way. Very progressive. And I've always looked up to him. He's always been very honest about his fandom and passionate and excited.

And I think people really want that right now. Yeah. And as long as you're not a Homer jerk about it, you know, and you're honest, I think. It's your ability to be objective. Yeah. Like Bill Simmons will be critical of his favorite teams. Or even more critical. And I just find, so then when I read their work, I also find that they become more knowledgeable. my sometimes i mean now i'm just talking uh sports but you're very good at uh

a lot of people who cover the the nfl and the micro level are really bad at granular takes on specific teams i find and then so they'll make these generalizations over what they hear like out there and it gets really frustrating as a sports fan of a specific team totally you seem pretty good at not doing that and i think that has to do with your passion as a fan i always say i hope your listeners are still we're about to get into uh kyle shannon's offense and how it influenced matt lafleur and green bay no um we'll spare you but i always say fans of a team know more than any of us national writers like you a packers fan you know i mean i've i've been studying matt lafleur and

trying to get caught up on the season i promise we won't talk about it but you know more than me i do this for a living no i'm serious because you give i can't i can name the 53 yeah but like you care you care more yeah and i think that it's important to acknowledge that and recognize it and to know what you don't know. But, you know, covering all 32 teams, I spent a lot of time, a lot of time paying attention to the people who know those teams while listening to them and respecting their knowledge, because it's usually more than me. I'm just kind of backtracking with things I find very interesting. Like you did before you got into sports, you covered the financial market. So how is that something you always wanted to do? How did but you liked it? Yes, I was an investigative reporter for Fortune magazine and Bloomberg Businessweek.

And I kind of just fell into it out of college. I got like an internship. And then in 2014, ESPN approached me because I had put out some football stuff and asked me if I wanted to switch. So I completely switched industries. So they reached out to you and they noticed your work. That's pretty flattering. I was also just tweeting a lot of dumb stuff about football

and they noticed that got you a job yeah well yeah right i mean i it's hard i mean i'm sure you can relate to this when you're i think i was i don't know if i was 30 yet but when you've been spending your whole life working in one industry and thinking this is what i'm going to do making the leap to something else is terrifying even Even though that you were a writer, was that a huge pivot in terms of what you were doing? Yeah. Because in what way? Because I didn't know the logistics. I knew a lot about football

because my whole life I've been passionate about it, but I didn't know, okay, well, how do I talk to a player? A question as simple as that. I knew how to read financial documents and approach companies, but I didn't know, okay, if I walk into a locker room, what is the protocol? What steps do I go through? Then a couple years into my career at ESPN, I switched to doing TV, which is primarily what I do now. I still write a bit, which is an entirely different career and something I never thought I would do. And so kind of to Rochelle's point for like young women who are have a passion to move up and what's historically a predominantly male driven industry. What are some three takeaways? Sure. That have served you well?

everyone but i think like it's funny we're talking about knowing all 32 teams i think sometimes there's this perception well you're watching football and i get up at seven and that's not even that early so it sounds like i'm bragging about where i'm just saying i spend my entire day watching all 22 taking uh that's uh uh coach's tape yeah um i need that uh for your listeners i'm like yes i uh i caught the beginning of your last podcast i liked your man's own joke with tanner that was funny um but i spend so much time studying and preparing and that does no one will ever know about i mean when i do a nfl podcast i have usually 50 pages of notes on the teams, whatever. So anyways, I hate to say do the work because that's a dumb takeaway,

but it's a lot of thankless, thankless, thankless work in sports. The other thing I would say is I, early in my career, had a lot of trouble saying yes to things when I didn't feel 1000% prepared for them that's what I was picking up from what you were saying

yeah and this gig I got calling preseason games I almost said no to because I didn't think I could do it that's a female thing yeah

women don't like to do things when they don't feel prepared men seem to have an easier time I'll figure it out yeah there's a little more

confidence there is that the like the stereotype of like babe ask for directions like i'll fuck it i'll figure it out yeah it's totally gendered i think and um you know doing shows that i've done at espn like first take which traditionally there's not been female debaters or uh analysts which is my role things i was absolutely terrified to do um so learning how to say yes things when I didn't feel like I was ready to do them is something I have gotten better at. And it's still a challenge for me. Last piece of advice, do not look at your mentions while you're

live on anything. Yeah. Or just to stay off the internet. That's awesome. I know. I really like that. And I guess I've never thought about that. It sounds like the women listening will relate to that. I mean, just to follow up to that point, what like, did someone tell you that? Did you have a self-realization that I don't do that? When you were about to turn down this historic opportunity to be the first female woman color color commentator for an nfl game you almost turned that down how did where how did you realize or what made you say

mina what the what what the fuck i'm not doing that my agent being shut up and say yes okay but actually there's another uh jessica mendoza who calls sunday night baseball for us and is also is much more of a pioneer, told me a similar story. And that was in the back of my head. She told me she was very terrified to say yes to do it. And I think of her, I'm like, what? You're so great. You're so confident.

You're so awesome. And knowing that made me think, okay, I can't, I have to do the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking out loud. I'm trying to put myself in what would be in your shoes. I mean, I'm just thinking out loud and trying to put myself in what would be in your shoes. Unfortunately, if you continue to rise in this space, you're going to get internet criticism

for people who won't like a woman call or commentating NFL football games, right? I mean, is that fair to say? I mean, I get horrible, forget calling games. I'm in any of the shows I'm on. If I check my mentions, it's always. And that's something I think to bring it back to this bachelor. I mean, I don't know how they're prepared for that,

but it's very similar in some ways. I think like dealing with that sort of criticism is, I mean, I guess it's different in that my criticism is simply existing in a lot. It's not actually what I'm saying or doing, but I don't think anyone prepares you to deal with that. Well, yes, I agree that like one fanatic is short, fan is short for fanatic. So whether you're a Bachelor fan rooting for one of the characters, and again, I love my

audience. Sometimes it is frustrating, I love my audience. Sometimes it is frustrating because I know they're speaking from a fan standpoint, even for you. I've just more like the criticism you get, like you said, is unique to you just like being a woman and what has always been historically male dominated.

And even fans like openly being like, well, what do you know? Or not listen to your take and it might be the best take said you're i mean i i'm i mean i'm not trying you're not not that you're here i'm uniquely in like you have great takes and they're and as a as a sports as a sports fan i listen to a lot of sports talk radio and it's kind of always very like, ugh. Like it's just so not well thought out sometimes. And you do a really good job of that regardless of your gender.

And it's, but it's, you're a pioneer. And I don't think, you are. I mean, I hope the Rams keep having you back. And I hope from a national standpoint, you get opportunities, maybe like Monday Night Football or whatever, I think you should. You're really good. And I think the sport needs more of it.

And it should be talented people. Right. I don't want someone who's not ready for it to do it. Yeah. So I think I'm on board. So I think it's pretty great. Well, I appreciate that. I'm glad you said yes.

You're really good yeah uh we're gonna before we go we're gonna play one little game it's our game we call do you know me oh boy in case the random ass questions uh that are sometimes conversation stars and sometimes they're just random information about our guests that we didn't take the time to ask and what sometimes is a bachelor heavy yeah and if you want to play this game with your own friends, you can get it on Amazon. There'll be a link. There'll be a link.

So it's real simple. Rochelle and I are going to wonder if we know you better. I'm going to ask you a question. Don't immediately answer. Give us an opportunity to debate. And we'll go from there. Okay.

I try to sometimes pick questions that will be interesting to our guests. I don't know if I did this right. Has Mina ever brought something, bought something from a garage sale? Oh, yeah. This is a thrifty bitch right here. Yeah, I'm gonna agree with you.

I don't think she's above a garage sale, so to speak. I think she's a man of the people, a woman of the people. Haven't most people? Yes, they have. Who would say no to that? I think... Rich people, maybe?

I... My friend who helped create this game, I don't know if she's ever... Maybe she has, I don't know. But she's doing very well for herself. Yeah, I don't know if she's ever had one. Maybe she has. I don't know. But she's doing very well for herself. Yeah. I don't know if Amanda Stanton, I would probably say no, she hasn't.

Amanda Stanton? Yeah. Amanda Stanton's a little hood. She might be. Really? Okay. Yeah. I don't know.

Maybe not now, but ever. That was a layup. Does Mina have a friend online she's never met in person that was you before today so yeah i don't know if we were friends before but i i'm gonna still say yes i i i would like i've kissed up to you a lot with my early like i liked nick before america i hope ben and i were rooting for him we hated josh but those dumb bros oh no no i have pandered anymore i hope i hope that you have i hope that you we thought we're friends but in fairness we didn't talk that much there were then a few dms okay okay but like sometimes i i still

think the answer to this question is yes yeah that. That in that space, in the writer space, that there's probably colleagues you've gotten to know and have really actually gotten to know, because we didn't know each other too well, that you've never met in person. Yes. I've had internet friends my whole life. They're kind of fun.

Dating back to live journal, MySpace years when I was in high school. What about men that you've dated? That I met on the internet. Because it's funny, I miss the whole Tinder fucking old. Good for you. Not that old.

But we're the same age. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Before, I think, like after college and before I met my husband, definitely. Yes. Oh, I met my husband. Definitely. Yes.

Oh, I like this one. Is Mina smiling in her driver's license photo? No. No. Yes. I'm going to say yes. I am. I'm 15 in it.

And I'm wearing a hemp puka shell necklace. Yes. It hasn't expired yet? No, because I got my driver's license in Arizona. I'm from Arizona. It's forever. It literally lasts 60 years or something crazy. Yeah, it's amazing. But don't you need a California driver's license?

Oh, you don't drive, huh? No, I do, but I didn't. I'm in the same boat. My Illinois driver's license expires in three weeks. Better start exfoliating. Has Mina seen My Illinois driver's license expires in three weeks. Uh-oh. Yikes. Better start exfoliating. Has Mina seen every Harry Potter movie?

100%. Yeah. You referred yourself as a major nerd. You look like a big Harry Potter fan. These are all too easy. Yeah. I guess so. Wait, where'd you go to high school? Mesquite High School in Gilbert.

Oh, in Gilbert. Yeah. Well, this kind of speaks to why I didn't necessarily know how friends we were because I opted not to ask some of the more invasive questions because I was like, I don't really know her that well. The racier ones. Well, she's an open book. Like, have you ever been injured during sex is a popular question.

No. Do you know me? No. Is that a common thing? What are you guys doing uh scratching is an injury oh i see i was thinking like a broken leg or something broken dick this might be too obvious too does mina know her uber rating no i'm gonna say yes i don't actually i don't want to look at it i don't want to look either

yeah i know the best i'm in denial i think the the uber rating is very unscientific you have a bad one yeah it's not as high as i want it to be clearly it's 4.57 that's so low friendliness isn't your that's really really bad. You know what people say. What do people say? No, because if you make an Uber driver wait a few minutes, you get a... Oh. I've never been rude to an Uber driver.

I've only huffed and puffed. That one, when they try to talk to you? Or I won't talk, yeah. What is it? 4.83 good pretty good i'm not gonna look i'm scared i've never looked i've never like my buddy has a horror stories with uber drivers and he has a 5.0 and he has been in fights with him it's it just depends yeah i don't know um can mina play an instrument yes of course wait let me guess which one i'm guessing it's a string instrument yeah me too it's a string wow yeah it's completely racist i also played the violin accordion also also did you put it back no is it racist yeah i think that was why

because i'm asian do only asians put i play the violin i play the violin too uh sorry that's okay is that is that a racist thing that we didn't realize what is that i realized immediately stereotype it's fine i'm just kidding but. I am never going to suggest an Asian person plays a string instrument again. There's no Asian people on The Bachelor, so... Oh, true. Sydney. Sydney is my... Everyone's doing her dirty.

Oh, Kayla. Who also, I think, was at the hand of... got some unfortunate stereotype to her. That's a whole other conversation. Yeah, we should have gotten into that. What instrument did you play? Okay, I played the trumpet, actually.

Oh, hell yeah. That's a great instrument. That's a very in-your-face response. Also a very male-dominated instrument. Yes. You stand up while you play. Does Mina use a daily planner, of course? No, yeah.

No, yeah. We don't even have to. She's got 50 pages of notes for a podcast. Is this Mina's natural hair color? Yes. Yeah, I've never dyed my hair. Ever? No.

Cool. I just learned how to put on makeup this this year oh you're my kindred spirit we're from arizona we're a lot is that okay has uh mina ever failed why do i pick these of course you've never failed a class yeah i've not right yeah uh has uh also maybe maybe is obvious in the other direction has mina ever cried after a test? Part of me wants to say yes, because I think you care very much about your academics.

I'm going to say no, because she aced all of them. You're always very prepared that you didn't have a reason. She was on a high after all her tests. For fun, I'm going to say you have cried. I have. I'm a crier.

Bill and I talked about this vis-a-vis the show, and Derek, Bill, was kind of making fun of him for crying, which I thought was ludicrous. I was a little bit, yeah, Bill Simmons was, not to throw shade at Bill Simmons, but he was very critical of cast members. I'm a fan. I was very critical,

he was very critical of cast members ever crying on the show. Which is crazy, because they cry all the time. Yeah, that's toxic masculinity. Mesnick come on the og crier um it was just more it wasn't it wasn't a masculine thing it was about anyone it was more it was it was an arrogance thing on like assuming he's probably above it all that's the sense i got from listening to it but you had you kind of defended it well right i mean about how like i don't know if you've listened to my take before about or other bachelor people it's just a science experiment yes

you're in a petri dish nothing to do with your intelligence level if you are a human with emotions and you find yourself in a situation where you surprisingly give a shit. And you have nothing else to do. And you have nothing else going on. You don't have your phone. Like you're dialed in. I feel like I would go nuts as well. I'd go into Bachelor, like everyone, I always think about like,

oh, what do I do on the show? Well, first I'd get kicked out immediately for being a normal person, but like a normal looking human. But I- Not if you, no, you're gorgeous. It all comes down to if you give a shit and the lead, if it's a Bachelor to if you give a shit in the lead if

it's a bachelor likes you i yes true fair but i also think i would go in super cocky being like i'm gonna be the funny quippy one and the narrator and i'm not gonna do anything stupid and in 24 hours yeah i'd be on the floor you don't even know being a dumbass you don't even know because you don't know who's talking about you behind your back and vice versa. And you might be the narrator, but someone could be narrating about you. It's like prison. My husband always says, if I went to prison, I would just read a lot of books and get really smart. And I'm like, no, you don't.

Because guys would be trying to shiv you. Like, you go in with all these ideas about what you would do. It's not like prison. It is. It's white collar prison. You can prison it is it's white collar prison you can't leave everyone's like oh how is belgium i'm like i mean i kind of saw it you're in a hotel room in a hotel room even that nice and allowed to leave for periods at a time hanging around with people who are not your real friends like maybe yes you don't know who to trust but also it's okay to cry whenever,

in my opinion. Oh, it's totally okay to cry. It's summer camp meets prison, right? Because summer camp is where you develop all these like insane attachments that you normally would. It's also therapy because when you do sometimes cry

or do the outrageous thing you didn't think you would do, it's a very liberating thing. It feels good. You're like, you know what? To save space, you know. people talk to safe space you know about your feelings 24 hours a day which most human beings never talk about their feelings especially for the men who go into that environment never having done that and then they're around a

bunch of people who are just becoming more and more emotional yeah you're constantly talking about your feelings you have producers saying hey man it's okay to cry they'll cry with you man and like it's the producers cry with you yeah sometimes that's so manipulative how i don't always think it's necessary they probably mean it yeah they i would i would i can't speak for them and maybe i'm sure it has but what i'm simply saying is sure but what what again they are good at making you feel what you are kind of wanting to get out. Yes. You know?

They sense what you want to do anyways. And it feels really good, which is why oftentimes, from a psychologist standpoint, why bachelor people, in a sincere way, go back before the Instagram, all that stuff, is- That addictive. I'll never forget it. I might have told this story before,

but it was after Andy's season. And it was a few months, it was before Chris Sills was named the bachelor. And Chris was from Iowa. I was living in Chicago. Chris lived like two hours away. So Chicago was the big city Chris would often come to. So he came in and his sister lived in Chicago.

And so he's like, hey, I'm coming to Chicago. We should meet up. So Chris and I met up for the first time after the show. And we were kind of like, again, at at that point I wasn't as bro-y with him and we started becoming friends but I was like we were friends at the time but like we weren't super close filming and Chris and I just everyone was talking I brought some of my buddies we all went out had a good time but for like a good 30 minutes is Chris and I off to the side kind of downloading our experience and Chris is is just like, do you miss it?

Like the interviews, the ITMs? And I was like, yeah, you know, I really do. And it was just this very therapeutic thing. And I do remember every time going back, whether it was Caitlin's or Paradise of the Bachelor, sitting down in that interview chair for the first time felt like home. It felt like a very comfortable, like, this feels good, and I'm really excited to be able to get this out.

It's therapy. You're just describing therapy. It was very much therapy. Which I love therapy. Yeah. I would love to have a therapist hand in hand. And so you are getting very authentic things. I mean, you could argue whether you should air therapy on national television,

but hey, you signed up for that. I think you're describing why people share their emotions on the internet. Yeah. I mean, it's the exact same phenomena. It's just far stranger. Totally.

Last question to wrap things up. Real fun one. Has Mina ever popped someone else's pimple? You're married, so I'm going to say yes. Popping another person's pimple is one of the greatest joys

in the world. Nick! That's gross. I am so grossed out by that. Me too. Yeah. I've dated girls who also enjoyed popping pimples, but we would fight over, like, no, this is my pimple to pop.

You don't get to pop it. I'm just grossing you out. It's like bubble wrap. It feels good that way. Oh, and it just explodes. No. It's like bubble wrap. Like, it feels good that way. Oh, just, and it just explodes. No,

no, no, no, no. Okay. Proactive, one of our sponsors. Yeah,

they are. Well, I mean, I really think, thank you for coming. I really enjoy all your takes, both on The Bachelor, on football,

and in life. Where can people find you, just to remind them? Sure. Well, I have a football podcast. Right now, I was listening. But if you don't like football, you will not like it. It's just my name. Look it up. And then you can watch me on ESPN,

on Around the Horn, Highly Questionable, other shows that we do, High Noon. So you can see me there. I think we probably have plenty of women who are our sports fans listening to this podcast

and we certainly have some men who listen to this podcast and you know they might be sports fans you should definitely check Mina out but thanks so much

for coming and I'm going to ask you about who I should draft in my fantasy football draft oh we didn't talk about Chris Harrison, fantasy football. What about him?

Isn't he the number one fantasy football guy? He's a big, he was started in sports, right? And sports broadcasting. Yeah. I've heard he's a big fantasy guy. I have a big fantasy draft coming up with,

it's some, it's a heavy hitters of that tradition. Okay. It's a, you know what you're picking? I don't even know my slot yet for that because it's, it was, it's a heavy hitters of that tradition okay it's uh you know what you're picking i don't even know my slot yet for that because it's it was it's a it's it's year one of this league okay it's uh tanner started it's me tanner chris harrison jared tyler oh tyler well can i be in this league well Well, wow. Where Tyler stands.

Come on. I'm a red-blooded woman. He's hot. I'm surprised. He is a, I mean, he's a great guy, but he also just kind of said. I mean, I'm like 300 years older than him too.

And I feel that way. Tyler Wells. Tyler's friend Matt is in it. Oh, Matt James 919. I don't like him. Secondary character. Your first Black Bachelor next season. He should be. I mean, someone should be.

Rochelle, okay. Rochelle doesn't. You're not. Are you anti him because he's anti Hannah B? Yeah, that whole thing really turned me off. I know. I'm so in the corner for Hannah. He went during,

did you not follow this whole... Come on, Nick. Come on. Not... Come on. During the... After the final rose, he was doing Instagram stories.

Yeah, saying Tyler should stay away from her and stuff. Yeah, he seems too up in Tyler's business. Probably maybe not the smart thing to say, but as your... Oh, totally. As your buddy, Tyler was in a tough spot he was asked a loaded question on national television i don't blame anyone involved that's did he say anything

mean about hannah no not really he was just kind of like you don't want stay away that sort of stuff and then he was cheering on him and gg which again, Tyler has every right to date a super hot smoking supermodel after getting dumped but I think I'm just so in Hannah B's corner and I want her to be happy. Can't you be in both?

Yeah. But they have, you know. Tyler's only a great guy if he dates Hannah. No, no, no. He's fine. I'm not anti-Tyler.

Yeah, nothing to Tyler. I just want Hannah to be happy. So do I. I like truly fell in love with her as a Bachelor. I think she was the best. You got to keep us updated on this Bachelor fantasy draft. Yeah, sounds interesting.

Yeah, so I don't know the slot. The draft is, well, for the people listening, it's today. It's tonight. It's on Wednesday. It's night before the kickoff. So we have all the freshest of data. Zeke Elliott. That's why I've been kind of looking at my phone.

The negotiations are heating up today. In my other league, I have the first pick. Do not. I would not. No. I want to go Kamara, but I feel like everyone's telling me to take Saquon. You should take Saquon.

Why over Kamara? Just because the sheer amount of touches he's going to get in that offense. I love Kamara. Matthew said if i wanted to go with kamara it's totally fine it's totally fine that offensive you don't think there's gonna you don't think there's gonna be a quarterback controversy at some point in new york i don't think it'll affect saquon he's that good well it's just they're so people are gonna have to

listen to this what's happening this is the end of the episode so if they're still here you know I think just you know fantasy is a volume game and the volume he's getting with the deficit of talent at wide receiver he's just gonna get so much so much volume and as a pass catcher too maybe fine all right anyways

Mina thank you so much for coming on it's been a lot of fun as always guys, thanks for listening. We will see you back on Monday for another episode of ask Nick with some great questions. And our guests next week is bitch Bible. Yeah.

Great Bible. That should be interesting for she canceled and she didn't cancel the whole thing. Thanks for listening guys. Have a great she canceled, then she didn't cancel. It's a whole thing. Thanks for listening, guys. Have a great week. We'll talk to you later.