The Viall Files - E404 Natalie Responds to Shayne w/ Allison Raskin

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelor Gossip Edition. Today we are joined by New York Times Bestselling Author, Podcaster, and mental health advocate, Allison Raskin! On this episode we reflect on the fallout from Shayne’s interview and talk about his relationship, what we learned, and where Shayne should go from here. We dive into Natalie’s responses to the interview, and invite both of them to come on for a mediation session where they could leave feeling like they’re in a better place. We also talk about what defines a hero and a villain in reality television, how we bring our personal experiences and biases when we watch these shows, and what is happening in Bachelor Nation. We also breakdown Allison’s new book, Overthinking About You, that brings insights into dating and mental health, highlighting how to be open in these conversations and how to overcome adversity. “Your biggest fan is a moment away from being your biggest critic.”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Helix Sleep: Helix is offering up to 200 dollars off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners at http://www.HelixSleep.com/VIALL Wondery: Listen to Even The Rich: Marilyn Monroe on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or you can listen ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @allisonraskin @emotionalsupportlady  Allison’s Book: Right now, when you preorder Overthinking About You and complete the form at http://www.bit.ly/overthinkingaboutyou by May 2, you will receive a limited edition notebook and pen, along with the chance to win one of five original prints signed by Allison! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, we've got a secret. This podcast is supported by Apples Never Fall, a chilling new mystery series from the author of Big Little Lies, starring Annette Bening, Sam Neill, Jake Lacey, and Alison Brie. It's sure to get people talking. What dark secrets lurk in this family? Tune in on March 21st to find out. Apples Never Fall, exclusively on W Network and Stack TV. What's going on, everybody?

Welcome back to another exciting, do I always say exciting? Yes. Episode of the, do I, am I lying? I don't know. Do I need more anxious shows? Another, just another. Another episode. For you to decide episode of The Vile Files, what's it called, Tuesday edition?

Like, I guess a little Bachelor, a little Love is Blind, a little pop culture. Our freestyle show. Totally. Kitchen Sink. Kitchen Sink. The Kitchen Sink episode. Bachelor off-season. But jam-packed nonetheless.

I don't know how this episode is going to go, but I feel like there's a ton to talk about. We have a wonderful guest with us, Alison Raskin. Hi. New York Times bestseller. For one week, but I get to say it till I die. One day. Yeah. You wrote an amazing book called Overthinking About You,

about the intersection between mental health and dating. Yes. Amazing stuff. We'll get into that. Also, Allison, and very importantly, big Love is Blind fan. Huge. Also, Bachelor. and very importantly, big Love is Blind fan. Huge. Also, Bachelor. Yes, definitely.

I have a great story to share about me and The Bachelor. Just to set up our audience. And then we'll get to Allison's story. I think we want to start by debriefing. We want to do a lot of discourse around the Shane episode. Yes. A lot of feelings, a lot of emotions, a lot of discourse around the Shane episode. Yes. A lot of feelings, a lot of emotions, a lot of opinions. Natalie posted

an Instagram story before I even woke up at 6 a.m. that Wednesday morning. Ready to go. Obviously, she had a lot to say about that.

A lot of people want to know if Natalie's going to come on the show. We'll have an update on that. We'll get into some Bachelor stuff. Reminder, we have a really incredible episode tomorrow.

I'm very excited about it. Cindy Eckhart is with us. I don't know if you know anything about Cindy. She's a billionaire, for one. I'm really excited that we're going to have a billionaire walking into this room. It's just like going to feel rich in here. Sometimes they just give you money. That's what I'm... Yeah. we're going to have a billionaire walking into this room. It's just like going to feel rich in here. Sometimes they just give you money. That's what I'm...

Yeah. Right? Maybe she will. It's like a billion is a big number. Anyway, more importantly, she invented a drug, if I'm understanding this correctly, that is essentially the female Viagra. And we'll have a conversation around just that whole, I guess, space. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about it.

I think there's an incredible story about she sold it, then bought it back. Why? I got the sense that it wasn't marketed in a way that she thought was worthy of the medication or the use case. the medication and the use case is there a social stigma between uh men and the and using like viagra to be sexually stimulated versus women you know like it seems like uh the research i did on cindy it's just like women's sexuality seems to be more focused on reproduction reproduction rather than enjoyment and is that okay i think cindy has a lot of uh a lot to say about that i'm excited to learn a lot from her that'll be tomorrow i think it's uh something that my audience will be very

interested in so be sure to tune into that also quick update if uh for all you uh people who haven't i don't know why listen to any of our ass nick episodes what a what an amazing time to go over and dive into your first ass nick episode justin long returns uh the original uh he's just not that into you it's always kind of a fun callback there was a uh well i don't like to we there's a little bit of tone to that to our ask nicks but it's kind of fun when justin comes he is a delightful as many of us know, whether it's recapping The Bachelor, just having a good old chat with Justin, or giving relationship advice. He is truly a dream. He's one of the most empathetic people on earth.

Yeah. Like, so tender, so kind. So, Justin and I team up to, and it's a wild Ask Nick episode. There's some voodoo involved. Ooh. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. Someone was dating with a… a wild uh ass nick episode there's some voodoo involved oh oh my god yeah yeah someone someone was dating was uh some really unhinged behavior some voodoo i don't know you're not gonna want to miss that so uh that's out now so go back listen to that and then while that's done then

the cindy eckhart episode will probably be available. So be sure to tune in to all that. We're just bringing you quality content all week long. All right, your story, Allison. We're dying to hear. So I had friends who worked on The Bachelor, Bill and Brad. And so they got me into the women tell-all for Ari's season, which was super fun. We went, my mom flew out. I went with my best friend.

We like, they cut to us a lot in the audience. It was very thrilling for me. And I was wearing this t-shirt that they had that was like, remember when Becca M went missing? And so I was like wearing this t-shirt with like Becca's face on it. And it was like, you know, a very specific shout out to that season. So you were on Women Tell All.

Did you get in the audience? Yeah, I was on the TV. It was pretty cool. But what was really great is then years later, when they were showing Caitlin Bristow's like engagement video, you know, like when they came on to show like Jason like proposing to her and everything. In the audience reaction box is me again from years earlier wearing the Becca t-shirt. There you go. wearing the Becca t-shirt.

There you go. So I don't know like why the editors of The Bachelor went through audience reaction footage. But you're wearing a t-shirt? Yeah, because it's the footage of me from like 2018 at Ari's tell-all, but they used it in... And Caitlin didn't come out on that tell-all with Jason to announce it? Like they just randomly used it?

Yeah, they just used archived footage of a reaction. But it's like... So you got firsthand... You lived the Bachelorette, essentially. Yeah. I got to be on two different reaction shots years apart, same reaction. So you personally were affected and realized how creatively they can be. They can pull old material to.

I couldn't believe it. I thought it was all real. So I was really blown away. But it's just so funny to use me when I'm clearly wearing a shirt with Becca M's face on it. What a weird. Let's pick this one. Why not? I feel like the editors, once in a while, decide to have some fun with their audience.

They must, right? Like Easter eggs and what they can get away with. And in Paradise, they're always just having to mess around with their edits. I think so. I feel like they used to have more fun. Yeah. feel like they used to have more fun yeah i uh i feel i hope they decide to get back to having being having paradise be a little bit more of a comedy more like camp yeah it what when i was on it it was definitely more well there was people different people in charge but more importantly

i think there was a my understanding third party, is that there was more of a mandate from the higher-ups saying, we want to go back to our roots of just over-exaggerated drama and raising the stakes and making it seem like any real thing is life or death. Right. you know, life or death or, you know, as opposed to like campy people having fun. No, it's like, we need, we need to lose our shit over these villains and call them terrible people and, and then have discourse around it, which, you know, it's good for our, our show. I don't know if it's good for the mental health of the people participating. Yeah. Not for us, I suppose, to decide. All right, let's dive in. All right, Love is Blind reactions from the Shane episode. I was going to say the shakedown, the Shane down. The Shane down.

Shane down. Unfortunately, we'll never have Shake on. He is unworthy of this platform. Should we show Natalie's response? Yeah, let's bring up Natalie's response. So Natalie posted this on her Instagram story before I woke up at 6 a.m. West Coast time. So she was...

She was on top of it. We dropped this episode at the midnight West Coast, so 2 p.m. Chicago time. I don't know where in the world Natalie was when it posted, but it seems as though she pulled an all-nighter. And I assume listened to it. I don't know. I feel like if my ex went on a very popular show to talk specifically about our relationship, that's the only reason I would stay up past midnight. Allison, you listened to my interview with Shane. What were your reactions?

Well, honestly, one of my first reactions was, people with ADHD, caffeine affects them differently. Well, interestingly enough, I have ADHD. Something I learned via comments that is a thing. It certainly, caffeine affects me to the point where I try not to drink it. But I think a lot of people can drink a lot more caffeine than someone without ADHD without it affecting them in that same way. It seems to affect Shan though.

Yeah, I don't know. But I'm not, I am not a doctor when it comes to those things. Although I don't think a lot of, I find that a lot of people like to pass off information they've once read on the internet into the comments. But yeah, I did learn that. People had a lot of opinions about caffeine intake and ADHD. But I think it's great that he's talking about that, that he has it, that he's being open about it.

You know, that probably how frustrating it was for him to have these misconceptions about his behavior and about his energy and sort of feeling like he needed to clear the air about that like from my when i was talking to him because you know i'm asking him questions i I just felt like, you know, Shane obviously just comes across as super high energy, kind of manic, I guess a little bit, you know, he had the caffeine, you know, he talked about that. Uh, he definitely seemed like a guy who wanted to get some things off his chest. He sounded like a guy for me that had some frustrations um about the experience i think a little bit with natalie but i also i personally got the impression that he still like um cared about natalie and just wanted to be heard uh that was well while interviewing him that was my reaction and then

natalie put out this this statement in her story saying I always love it when they uh say I know about the podcast I couldn't help but wonder if that was like Natalie's way of of being like I'm not giving you a single stream I'm not gonna I'm not gonna let you guys know what the podcast is um I don't know if that works the way she had hoped. I definitely appreciate the plug, Natalie. I feel like it did draw people to our show. Yeah. Maybe it's like when something is a name brand, but it becomes known as the product, like Kleenex for tissues. You're the podcast. You're on the podcast. Yeah, you're the only podcast. I don't know. That would be lovely. I don't know if we've reached that level, but I feel like if, as it relates to this story,

if Natalie posted, I feel like everyone, it wasn't that hard to figure out. Like she definitely sparked the curiosity of people. How did she, should we just read this for our audience? Why don't you go ahead and read it, Ellie? Thank God. I used to be a lector at church. I'm ready.

Yes, I know about the podcast and I'm very shocked by what was said. A few things of many I want to clear up. Regarding the comment about me scripting our conversations, I never told Shane what to say, nor did we ever discuss or plan what to say in certain scenes. I did, however, set boundaries with filming. Specifically, I asked him to not drink alcohol before serious scenes and to not share in-depth

details of our intimacy out of respect for my family. I know he found this frustrating. The latter is what led to our fight in Mexico. I did not run from my conversation with Shana on the beach. I had the conversation with her, but it did not air. All the cast members were present for the scene, including Shane. I was frustrated with Shane that day because I heard he said something negative about me behind my back to one of the cast members when I was a few feet away, and I let him know I thought it was disrespectful.

Several cast members were present for this conversation I had with him. I told Shane he was disgusting Sunday night because he called me to tell me he was going to bury me and drag me down with him on the podcast because I ended any chance of reconciliation, in addition to him feeling I didn't speak highly enough of him in the media. A major factor in our breakup last year is I found what I considered to be very flirtatious messages between him and other women. He's right. I haven't

been able to get over this, and it is the main reason I can't get back together with him. This is something we have discussed numerous times via text these last several months. His hangout with Shana during the premiere of the show is not the reason. We dated twice after our wedding, not four times. We rekindled the weekend we filmed the reunion episode, but decided to keep the door closed. Recently, we met up to discuss the possibility of reconciliation, but ultimately agreed not to date until he changed some of his behaviors. A few days later, I fully closed the door for any type of reconciliation after discovering some lies he told me. Maybe in a few days, I'll have more to say on this, but right now I'm saddened and confused by his dishonesty on the podcast. I didn't think it would

get to the point where I'd have to address this publicly, but blatantly lying about me on a podcast for whatever motive is where I draw the line. Said a lot. Yeah. I posted later that day, just like I was getting, everyone's sending this to me. Right. And it was kind of like, I've seen it. So I felt like, and then I was getting a lot of questions about like, you got to have Natalie on.

I was just like, of course I'd love to have Natalie on. And so I posted a story stating obviously that I would love to have her on for anyone who, why wouldn't I? Right. Of course. You're not like too busy to have her come on. I'd be a huge, I mean, why wouldn't I? I mean, from a podcast hosting standpoint of wanting to get the scoop,

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Marilyn Monroe, one of the greatest icons of Hollywood. Yeah. Well, if you love Even the Rich, you're going to absolutely love this episode all about Marilyn Monroe. She is far and away one of the most famous actors of the 20th century. Her name is synonymous with the American ingenue.

In an all-new season of Wonder is Even the Witch, hosts Brooke and Arisia pull back the curtains on her legacy life and career. Much has been said and written about Marilyn Monroe over 60 years since her tragic death at 36. But what often gets overshadowed is the absolute force of nature she was while she was alive. Marilyn was a woman ahead of her time in so many ways. From the moment she stepped onto the first movie set,

it became clear that it was her acting intoxicating charm that brought her film's box office success. So fascinating. Can't wait to check this one out. Always been a big fan of Marilyn Monroe, and she's so dynamic. And I just love how Even the Rich really pulls back the curtain on these characters so that you can learn more about the fascinating people that they cover like Marilyn Monroe. Listen to Even the Rich, Marilyn Monroe on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or you can listen ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. and this is true, in terms of what I heard from a production standpoint, the things that happened on the show, I can confirm that Shane,

I heard what Shane told me in terms of the running away. The stuff that happened on the show, I heard in fact happened. Which way? That she did run away? That she would have a lot of conversations with Shane prior to their conversations. I want to be careful saying too much just because it's still third party. It's not from Natalie, but I just heard, I, it was, it was like, yeah, that happened. Uh, the running away and those other stuff. Like I, I heard that happened. Oh, really? Um, now the stuff after the show, who knows? Right. Uh, the only thing that I felt to be the most troublesome

because like i read this and i thought to myself well the only thing that really stood out to me is kind of like was the the at the end the this kind of accusation of this threat of ruining her kind of thing because that that if if true that's kind of an ugly thing my My second reaction was, well, listening to it back, I didn't get the impression, at least from interviewing them, and I'm curious after listening to it, I didn't get the impression that was Shane's goal, and nor did my impression of Natalie. I didn't leave that episode with a bad opinion of Natalie.

No, me neither. At all. I also think that it was very interesting that you clearly had him on the day after a very emotional day for him, right? Yes. Like it seemed like things had literally just happened. Correct. And so I wonder what that interview would have been like a week later.

True. Very good point. I did hear, because I was curious about that, and it's through third parties, so who knows? But my understanding is these kind of idle threats suggested was something that has happened between the both of them multiple times. And it's not one-sided. It's my understanding, third party, is that they're both guilty of these kind of idle threats i think that they have a lot of love for each other and i think they also do not have a good dynamic yes that was my that was my overall takeaway it's just like you know what and that's

kind of what i and i've said this before what i really liked about love is blind too especially compared to the bachelor is that they showed people and they showed people with likable characteristics and they showed people with warts and not a single person on that show uh didn't look like they didn't come with some sort of like you know warts or scars or imperfections as we all have where the bachelor likes likes to edit it very oversimplified. Here are your heroes, here are your villains, here are your people who just say they're there to be grateful

and they look like just polished and clean and you don't see anything bad about them. And then you see other people where they just look like complete messes. There's no like gray, it's good or bad. And what I loved about Love is Blind too, there was none of that. Like, yeah, you had your shakes who who just everything we keep hearing is like he just he got a really good at it and as

bad as he looked he's just maybe kind of a bad guy and then but everyone else seemed like a human being which i really enjoyed watching i loved it and and you know like i think something that's really hard is that like and this is honestly what my book's about is like the romantic relationships are asking you to be vulnerable in this way that is going to bring up your warts it's going to bring up your baggage it's going to like bring up the parts of you that maybe you're still working on right and so like love is blind did a really great job of showing people not only having that stuff be brought out in them, but then them in real time having to work through that with their partner.

Yeah. And you saw that especially with like the Nick and Danielle, you know, relationship. And I think that that was an example of them figuring out how to make a healthier relationship dynamic. And then i think with natalie and shane unfortunately they just haven't been able to to do that yeah because like like i said like i heard from from multiple sources that there were a lot of conversations between her and shane prior to them doing any scene yeah um and i get that i so that's the thing so now nally said her her was basically like

i set boundaries with production i thought that was a really interesting line and what i think is interesting is because we talk a lot about boundaries on this show right and it really think it just comes down to as an audience, as a fan of the show, what are your expectations of cast? Because I don't think there's a right or wrong. You have Shane, who seemed to be someone, even when we talked to him, was just like, listen, I wanted to be as quote unquote authentic as possible. If that meant I came across as sloppy and crazy so be it i just wanted to like

go in and be in the moment and react and just embrace this social experiment that's and i think as reality tv fans especially like if you come from like a bachelor side of things you we praise the at least the idea of authenticity on a reality tv show right and natalie is just like maybe her version of authenticity was just like yeah i'll go on but like i'm i'm gonna set some boundaries and like i don't maybe i'm not willing to be my most authentic self. And is that okay? Like, it feels like some audience members are critical of that. But at the same time, like, it also makes sense. Yeah, I was going to pose the question to you of, like, how much do you owe the audience if you agree to do a show like this?

Well, it's a fine line, right? Between, like, setting a boundary. Like, when you say setting a boundary with production, that can be so many different things. It could mean like, listen, I don't feel comfortable doing that. But the big question is, to what degree? To what degree did Natalie sit down with Shane before conversations or production to what degree did she quote unquote script their conversations and how much that changed the authenticity of the relationship we saw on camera because it could be something where it's just like i don't want to do that and i'm not okay with that which seems reasonable or was it more detailed where she's like we can only talk about this i want to talk about this i want you to say this if i say say this, you have to say that. Like, which one was it? Yeah, because I think there's a really big difference in saying like, there's certain things I don't want to address.

Like specifically, she mentions intimacy as being something where like, particularly as it relates to her family, I think it's a very different conversation to say these things are out of balance for me versus a more curated conversational I want to hit these certain talking points. Yes. And it seems unclear which... To what degree it happens. To what degree.

Yeah. Like I think something I said in my post, I believe that they both believe their truth. And that's exactly it. I think you're so right. Like I don't necessarily think this is like if we got to the bottom of it, there would be one clear liar. I think that both of their versions are probably some of the stuff that shane said happened happened but uh ayana uh she commented uh i we posted a real i posted one of the reels a promo of the shane interview on my instagram and she commented on it uh something like i've heard a couple lies already so and then the question is is it because you were there from a production standpoint?

Or are you saying this because, you know, what's the relationship and the friendship between Natalie and Ayana? You know, sometimes as friends, we want to have our friends back. Is she hearing the truth from Natalie? Or is it the truth from something she saw? Both are understandable. Like, sometimes we, right, as friends, we want to have our friends back. And so, you know, the cast seems to be getting involved.

You're really stirring stuff up. Me? I will say, I honestly kind of, when we had Shane on, obviously as a guest, he was very giving. Yes. When I get to interview a lot of people who go on reality TV and come off, and it's a mixed bag because they're careful what they want to say. They got production.

A lot of these people are still under contract, so they have publicists from the respective shows coming, being like, make sure you don't say this. They're media trained. They're media trained. They're media trained. And Shane was a generous guest as it relates to his story. But after seeing Natalie's post, I was personally bummed that it seemed to be getting more toxic in real time.

I didn't like that. I understood that when i interviewed with shane that i i sent i mean without knowing anything about natalie i was like she might not be thrilled right but i i guess i didn't think it would necessarily turn into like what seems to be kind of getting uglier rather than maybe just like, I'm annoyed that you said anything other than positive things about me, which I would understand. But I was bummed about that. I don't, I'm not trying to, I don't know if anyone, everyone would believe me, but necessarily stir the pot. I want to have a good interview. I want to give people what they want, but I,

it made me feel bad that clearly there was some toxic feelings going on outside of the interview. Did you ask Shane about like the quotes of that he was going to bury her and drag her down of like if he said that or not? Not Shane specifically because I didn't want to get into like asking him because then it's like then I'm repeating what shane said to me that i'm still get to interview shane without having talking to natalie i i i did ask other people and that and what i heard like i said what i heard was my understanding is via phone conversations and texts that over the course of this on again andagain relationship, there were idle threats from both parties, which is not necessarily uncommon in some of these kind of high-stakes situations.

And as someone who came off reality TV, you have a combination of these real feelings between these people. Simultaneously, their own personal brand of wanting to look good and the opportunities that come with it both shane and natalie have over a half a million instagram followers it's a common conversation between cast themselves and their peers of being like i don't really care about the followers and i don't care about the attention i I'm not going to do ads or blah, blah, blah.

And maybe they believed saying that going in because they wanted to have like a level-headed approach. And then all of a sudden they wake up one day with a bunch of buzz and a bunch of followers and they have managers reaching out saying, I can rep you and money being thrown their way. And then of course they should take advantage. And then all of a sudden that changes their thought process in real time of how they want to approach it. They get more self-conscious. People want to control their narrative. Natalie is someone who looked very good most of the show,

like all of the show. I think for most of the time she came across as uh well-spoken and thoughtful and in control of her emotions juxtaposed juxtaposed to like shane who came across as a bit manic and out of control and that it was in control and and this was kind of the first kind of layer of true or not of maybe nat Natalie again just being human of losing a little bit control of the the Shane and Natalie's story it felt like yeah I mean I actually didn't think that Natalie had a had like a seamless edit I mean I think we whenever we saw Shane like reach for her and be like I need some verbal affirmations from you.

And you saw that Natalie really wasn't able to give that. I think she also felt like a real person to me where it felt like, oh, she maybe has some. Totally. But overall, I thought she looked like just a really nice person. Yes, definitely. Yeah. But I liked Shane too. I think because they let us see those complexities in these cast members,

other than Jake, I liked everybody. Yeah, totally. I thought they came across all quite well. Just listening to Shane talk, I empathized with just when he was talking about being with someone who seemed to nitpick at them and again he said she said we don't know but i i've been in relate i i've empathized with that just to you know being with someone who comes across in public and very like put together where and then behind closed doors there's a lot of

poking of the bear again maybe that's not maybe maybe shane's lying i don't know but when he was describing that feeling i was personally able to empathize with that it's a real thing it happens all the time and so uh whether that's true or not i i just in that moment i, I was like, yeah, I know what that feels like. And if you went through that, that would be a bummer. And I think it's sometimes a feeling that when you are in Shane's position, because you feel like that you are being authentic with your emotions.

And it's just like, I just want to be able to be myself and be accepted for it. And I got the sense from Shane that that's something he'd struggle with. And again, if what he said was true about Natalie, I think his frustration comes from, listen, I love her. She's great. And but she's not perfect. You know, it's like he wanted to be, it's like he wanted simply to tell people,

she's just not perfect either. As you know, and that's the sense i got from him and i think this again like speaks to the compatibility issue right there's some people where if they haven't someone who does maybe nitpick it bounces off of them easier right like they're not going to be as affected by it they can kind of like go in one year at the other like shane um yeah or like you know or are you speaking about shane are you speaking about like i'm saying if there are people that will date somebody let's say like a natalie potentially if this is true where she does nitpick and she does point out things and you could kind of take that like it

brush it off like it's like okay fine like you know but i think someone like shane when that does happen he has a little bit of rejection sensitivity stuff where like those little notes hurt him yeah you know and so this again speaks to like this dynamic that they've created you know like my my brother-in-law if my sister says something to nitpick him he doesn't care like do you know what i mean like it doesn't affect him like maybe he'll listen maybe he won't like whatever but like with someone like shane when he someone says something to him i think it he does feel it deeply totally and so it like it contributed to them being in this bad cycle with each other because you know i think her maybe she

was someone who would give kind of notes and like he took it harder than and that's not good or bad it's just the way that he is yeah and there's also the element of and we kind of saw it play out with the oscar slap and the will and jada and things like that is is you never really know like the dynamic of the relationship or the health of relationship can affect how people react to like whether intentional or not we know how to trigger our partner sometimes we know what well we should know and if we don't know then that that's bad. There's that. And then sometimes in the heat of the moment, we've all been guilty of scratching that itch because when we feel hurt, it's natural to want to hurt people back. Maturity and healthy reactions and relationships stops us from doing that.

But I think if we're all honest, at some point in our life, we've probably been guilty of saying something that we knew would upset our partner. And the big question is, especially in breakups, we see those type of behaviors escalating because both parties are often hurting. And that's where I feel bad for both of Natalie and Shane. it seems like both parties have some hurt and some sadness about the relationship and the experience and right now you're seeing both parties probably being guilty of while trying to protect themselves uh even though they might not mean it and they say they don't want to hurt the other person there's a little bit of that going on it seems like yeah and i you know that's part of what's tricky is like i think people that you know are maybe coming into the show like this or whatever it's like it takes a lot of work to be

able to have a healthy relationship and maybe not everyone's there yet like it takes time and like who knows in a, in a year, in a year of doing work on themselves, them coming back together, I don't know what that would look like. But it does feel like right now they are triggering each other. I hope for both of them they let go. I think so, too.

One thing I didn't ask Shane, and Natalie's statement slightly contradicted, and I wish I would have asked him I didn't ask like who and all these like reconciliations whether it was two or four honestly like to me that sounds like semantics like yeah because I think it was also like maybe a differentiation between romantic and like hangouts versus yeah Shane might have been like we talked about it four different times and Nally might be like well we only really got into it twice type of thing to me i like i don't really care about

that truth so to speak they clearly try to get back together that's the big takeaway like two or four i don't think i'm not gonna be like well then you're a liar shane or you're a liar nally like they i think they they wanted to get back together shane really made it seem like at the end of the day it was mutual mutual in the sense that they both seem to have a mutual interest of considering getting back together and it seemed i took it as a ultimately a mutual like this is going to work out now that doesn't mean at times both of them like might have tried and the other person might have pushed back but that But I didn't really ask that. And I just assumed that was generally mutual

where Natalie implies at least that it was more her decision. And I would be curious. That's something I wish I would have got clarification from Shane. Yeah, I mean, it's so tough. And I think that you're right, though, that the goal should be for these two people to to move on with other people because i think at this point they have so much baggage with each other and so much hurt there it's and what you really i loved what you really focused on with shane when he said that you know she made him feel bad about himself and you were like well

you shouldn't be with someone where that's how you feel and i don't necessarily even think that that's natalie's fault i think that it's just the reality of how he felt when he was with her and that's probably some stuff he's got to work through that's probably some like self-esteem stuff but like a huge thing to look for in a relationship is not just who is this other person but but how does this person make you feel when you're around them? 100%. And we talk about this a lot. And I think Natalie and Shane are a perfect example.

And I think it's important for people listening to remember is that two generally good people can be bad for each other. And people all the time can bring out the worst in each other. Now, when you introduce heightened other variables, like being on a TV show and having the opinions of like random people talk about yourselves and your relationship, that can add to the toxicity of the relationship.

And I hope, I'd like to think that both Natalie and Shane are both generally well-intentioned good people with flaws they both need to work on, that all of us, and that them together is a toxic situation and that if they were to stubbornly refuse to accept the reality that maybe they aren't good for each other, they can bring out the worst in each other. They can look like people who aren't great if they continue to surround each other with the other person. And I think that

happens in life all the time. I did ask because I just got to do my job. The invite to Natalie has been extended. I've been told, and I want to make sure I'm respecting all parties, but I'll just keep it a little cryptic and just say it's not happening right now okay i've been led to believe that there's a strong possibility that it could happen at the appropriate time whenever that might be so i and i and as a podcast host who wants the juicy story obviously i'd want that if i'm being honest if i if I were a friend to Natalie and or Shane, if someone were to come to me and say, specifically Natalie, do you think I should do Nick's podcast or any podcast?

I mean, if she wants to do a podcast and if she is able to do a podcast, someone's going to want her on. So that's, you know. And if I were a friend to were and she were to say do you think i should go on and elaborate on my truth i would i would probably tell her no really as a friend to natalie what i would say to her is well one you have you know she released a statement She put some stuff out there. And while it might be juicy, I would ask her, like, what is your goal? Like, what do you want to accomplish by going on?

Because whatever you say at this point, it's just he said, she said. If it's just Natalie talking about Shane without Shane being there, it's just her version of the truth. And I have no doubt that Natalie would be very believable, but can she speak on everything? You know, maybe, maybe not. Maybe there's limitations of what she can speak on as it relates to because she's on the show. So that stops it for being like a full interview potentially.

And I would just, I would, no matter what she says, I would think that she most likely would leave disappointed because you have this desire for everyone to believe you and there's just no way everyone's going to believe her. And it always seems like the criticism is louder than the compliments. So even if most people were saying, oh, Natalie, you're a queen and we believe you. And there's a lot of people who believe Natalie. But I think both Natalie and Shane are hearing the criticism more than they're hearing the praise. And I think that won't change for Natalie if she does any podcast. Because at this point, it's just people are going to believe what they want to believe.

at this point it's just people are going to believe what they want to believe what i do think she should do as i think the only productive way of doing this is to have natalie and shayna together and like a mediation of some sort i'd watch that and i and i honestly think that would be but then again it gets to what's the goal of that though to to to declare a winner because i don't feel like that's a good goal for either of them to have we do these mediation calls right on our going deeper episode and the goal of those calls is to not have a winner. It's not, as some of our listeners suggested when we first started this segment of the vile trials. My goal would be, because I do think there's a lot of mutual respect

and love between the two. I don't think either of them enjoy seeing the other person hurt. I believe that. I want to believe that. And so my goal, and I'm essentially pitching them right now because they're going to hear it, is that you could do nothing. You could let it die down. That's option number one, to just go your separate ways. Don't give any podcasts the pleasure of having them on and

have people get involved. That's one option. And that is, as a friend to both of them, a solid option. Like, just let it go away. Let it die down. Go live your lives. You're not going to change everyone's mind. You can't have everyone love you. Or if you want your truth heard, just go on together and work it out. if you want your truth heard just go on together and work it out and in that way it's not he said she said it's like well come on let's find the truth what let's get to a place where you guys

can just reconcile put the truth out there maybe there's some debate on on what's going on but i do think ultimately they could leave feeling, I think the audience could leave feeling like they just heard what is the actual truth. And I think both Shane and Natalie could leave feeling like they didn't win or they didn't lose, but they feel heard. Because I think ultimately both these people want to feel heard. I think that's the goal. these people want to feel heard. I think that's the goal. And I think they can both feel heard without feeling like they're won or lost and still feeling like the other person was respected. I think that's the only, if they're going to do a podcast, I think that as a friend is the only way they should do it. Because if Natalie does it, she's going to want to come on. She's going to

want to come on guns a blazing like Shane did. And when she does the interview, whether it's with me or someone else, she'll probably feel really good about it. And then she'll get anxiety between the time where she records it and it airs. And then when it airs, there'll be hot takes. Yeah. And all the criticism of any criticism, I don't care if it's 10 people or 40 or 40,000. It's going to feel like a lot. And she most likely will regret it no matter how it goes or what is said is because at this point, it's how do we know who to believe? No, I think that's a great idea. And it also sort of resets, right? Because if they come on together, then you're not waiting for the next response.

Yeah. Because you had them respond at the same time. Right? Because no matter... Now, because honestly, I suppose I was naive when I interviewed Shane. He was talking a lot about Natalie and that was just like...

And I asked him, does Natalie know you're going to say this stuff? But I took him at his word. And I guess I didn't suspect Natalie would like I mean Natalie flat out called him a liar you know so then it's kind of like what's what's true and so I also feel like at this point with their relationship how much does it matter what's true that's happened in the past versus them having an opportunity to sort of potentially work through their issues with each other in in real time and then move forward right and so like giving it kind of like a final chapter like

almost like a that that not that i think people need closure but just this that sense of like okay this is our final time talking about this this is our final hopes for each other this is how this relationship has changed me and what i my takeaways are from it but i think if if the goal of that conversation was you ran away on the beach no i didn't you ran like then it's like you don't even get you know like getting to the truth of it i don't think we'll ever get to the truth of it because i think they have totally different truths i totally agree and i think if they both either of them keep doing podcasts as individuals talking about this story neither of them will feel satisfied they will neither of them will feel like their truth is really out there and they'll keep feeling like they have

to defend their truth so i think the only option is to do it together or not at all. As a friend, that's what I would do. That's a very convincing argument. I'm convinced. Because I feel like if Gally were listening to this for a friend, the suggestion that she does it with Shane, her immediate response would be, no fucking way. Right.

That would be the immediate reaction. But I think if you sit back and think about it, it makes a lot of sense. It really does. If you're listening, Shane, Natalie. How did you... Two-person couch right there. How did you get to be okay with the idea of people not knowing your truth? That like accepting that like there's parts of things that happened and there's stories

that people just don't know and that like your version of it is never going to be fully known that's a great question it's a great question um one for me personally uh constantly reminding myself that what other people think of me is none of my business which is a weird truth yeah being someone who is on some levels in the public eye you definitely my job on some level is to care what people think of me like or the show uh and it's a balance like you want to hear your audience and you want to hear their feedback but as i kind of of like, we'll talk to Allie and Amanda, like too much can handcuff you. You know, ultimately my job as I see it on this show

and ultimately their job as being a part of the show now is to have thoughtful conversations that get people thinking and you want people to care. We don't want people not to care about this show. Right. And someone disagreeing or hating me, while personally, like, that's not my favorite thing. It's uncomfortable.

Is not a bad thing as it relates to this show. They just have to have an interest. And that can be very hard to do. On a personal level, I just remind myself that if you can't go around and ask people, if people were to say, just pull 100 people who have interacted with you. What do you think of Allison? What do you think of Nick? If everyone likes you, then you're not, you're being your most authentic self in public.

You know, because if you're just being yourself and not constantly worried about what other people think or constantly worried about what you're being the most considerate and most polite person, you're going to say or do things that maybe rub people the wrong way. People who are in their own thoughts and feelings, who are having their own good days and bad days, who are projecting their own emotions onto you, and you're going to disappoint people sometimes. So I just think that's the big thing. And so the question you have to ask yourself is, do you want to be your most authentic self, or do you just want to be generally liked? And I think I kind of have that conversation with myself and just try to be, I want to be a good person. I want to have good character. You know, to me, I really channel, like, you know, what do you do when people aren't

looking or paying attention? I want to be able to answer those questions, the people I love and my parents and my friends and my partner. And I want to be able to answer to them about my decisions about who I am as a person. And I prioritize that over answering to anyone, whether it's my audience or just people I interact with. And that doesn't mean that I can't still improve things. I'm aloof. I'm an introvert. I'm in my head. I worry a lot.

I overthink. introvert. I'm in my head. I worry a lot. I overthink. And with that, and I'm someone, even before I was in the public eye, I was tall. And being a tall person, people just notice you in public. So when you have like a resting bitch face or you're not like being social with people in public, people have opinions of you, right? Now, that's bothered me. I've been insecure about that. And those are things I try to work on. But it's a fine line between working on them and crippling myself with worrying about if everyone doesn't like me or if everyone hates me. Does that make sense? No, totally. I mean, I came up on the internet. How do you do it? Yeah, it's challenging. It's also challenging, right?

Because you're constantly growing and changing. So who they're seeing on the internet or in the public might feel like, oh, that's not what I expect of you. But it's like because you're no longer that person. And I think for me, it's really been feeling like, oh, okay, not everyone, I'm choosing what I share of myself. I'm choosing, like, accepting that, like, even though I try to be really authentic, like, it's always curated because I'm not just being followed around by a camera 24-7. I'm deciding what I'm putting out there and what I'm not putting out there and people react to it um but I think the thing that's really helped me is like I I try to be like everyone has different standards of how they want to live their life and if you try to live your life to everyone else's

standards you'll fail because one you don't know what they are and two everyone has different ones right so how can you meet everyone's standards and I think it's really like what you said, where I have to create my own standards for how I want to live my life. And then I live it. And then that will bump up against some people. And for other people, it will align with how they want to. But I mean, accepting that like people don't ever fully know you and that you don't ever fully know anyone you just have to sort of be comfortable with who you are and and um and be okay with the idea that like our perceptions of things are vastly different than other people's totally i mean when we when we hear like reactions to interviews like shane's like i don't know these people but it's obviously

so it's so obvious that it seems like with some of their reactions, just the way they're written or how visceral the reactions are, that people are projecting their own lives. And what's going on, we, like, a lot of times,

reactions from things we see on reality TV are often, and people even say in the comments, this person reminds me of so-and-so. I've dated a guy like this. I've dated a woman like so-and-so. And we will watch these people and decide that we know these people because of certain characteristics we might've seen in our partner. And there might be some truth to that, but that's a very, we need to be, that's a leap. We need to be very careful when we do that, but it's our way of trying to understand our own choices. I think that's why people love

like these reality TV show so much, especially about love. Yeah. As we see ourselves, not only in the heroes, but in the villains. And it's, and the reason I think sometimes we're so quick to criticize people, it's easy to criticize other people in the villains. And the reason I think sometimes we're so quick to criticize people, it's easier to criticize other people than criticize ourselves. And if we criticize other people, I think that's our subconscious letting us know that we're checking ourselves without really fully looking in the mirror. You know, does that make sense? Yeah, I think a lot of times the things that we don't like about ourselves

is what we dislike the most in other people. Yeah. And so like if something is really, dislike the most in other people. Yeah. And so like if something is really, you're having this like visceral reaction to something being like, oh, do I do that? Like having the accountability to be like, why am I having such a strong reaction to this? I think when you meet people in life that other people see, they're like, so-and-so is kind of similar to you. You either love them or hate them. There's no middle ground. You're like, that's my ride or

die. Or like, I don't know, I fucking hate that person. And then other people are just like, I don't know, you guys are kind of the same. Well, it's a window into how other people perceive you. Right? Because you don't really know how someone perceives you. But if they're like, oh, you're just like this, then you're like, oh, you see me that way. And sometimes that can be very startling and upsetting.

Yeah. But final thoughts, Natalie, Shane, if you're listening, if you're still interested, and if you're ever allowed, we'd love to have you both on. I will take Natalie on her own.

I will. And I would... She sits down, you're like, this is a mistake for you to be here. As a friend, bad for the show, but I

I'll take her. I just think if she were to call me up as a straight friend, I'd be like, I don't know how much upside there is at this point for you to go on a podcast by yourself, regardless of the podcast, and share your truth about you and shane i feel like you're you're not gonna finish happy i think there is a happy

solution to you know having them both on should they talk to each other before they both come on i don't think they should i i'm i if they were to call me uh like if I were to talk to their people or whatever, I would ask them to not do that. I mean, according to this, it sounds like Natalie might call up Shane and be like, let's get our story straight. None of that. I would prefer not to have that happen.

I would be transparent with them about stuff I'd want to ask them. And share questions ahead of time? Sure. I don't want this to feel like a gotcha thing. I really don't want someone... I would feel really good about having them on and both feeling like when it's done.

Not in the middle because there would be some awkwardness or whatever, but when it's done, they both feel... And the audience generally take away is, you know what? I believe them both and i don't believe them both but i think they're they're solid people who probably shouldn't be dating and that's all that really matters that would be my hope and i think in the middle there'd be some great uncomfortable moments that people would enjoy listening but that that would be my goal I'd ultimately want it to be like any other mediation call we've ever had. And for them to have a sense of like, and now let's move on with both of our lives. Yeah. All right, Allie, what do we got for any

updates on Bachelor World that we need to keep our audience in the loop of? I mean, Bachelor World is just, it's like a lot of almost shorter snippets. There's not huge things going on. There's obviously Bachelor in Paradise talk of who wants to see who, none of which is super surprising. I'm going to do a very quick rundown of some happy couple

updates. Oh, yay! Andy Dorfman is engaged. Abigail and Noah are now living together in Huntington Beach, so their long distance is done. Abigail and Noah are now living together in Huntington Beach, so their long distance is done. Katie and John are also living together. They have a van, and they're kind of co-parenting Tommy. Who's Tommy? The cat.

Are they living in the van? I don't know. I don't think so. But the van's name is Leroy. Okay. Just fun tidbit for you. Joe and Serena are moving to New York, despite him telling Kendall he would never leave Chicago. Chris and Alana are still together and are traveling hannah brown and her let's go back to

the where's this accusation of joe saying he never would leave chicago that was his whole thing with kendall i feel it was more like i didn't like living in la oh and i think i thought it was my family's in chicago this is where i'm at. That's one of those. Yeah, I don't know. I think it was one of those. If it was the Joe and Kendall mediation, I wouldn't be shocked if the truth. They have different opinions.

They have different truths. But I think the biggest takeaway is Joe didn't like living in LA and Kendall didn't want to live in Chicago. Also, things change. And maybe the long distance was a big reason why they broke up, but deep down wasn't the reason. It's easier to say that rather than saying, I don't like you. I got the sense that it was that he was willing to go to LA for her, but she wasn't willing to budge at all for him. More so than the city itself. Yeah. I don't know.

I think at the end of the day, they weren't each other's person. Yeah. Because we even saw, we have a mediation call that deals with this exact topic about moving. And it's like,

even though the two people were on completely different sides of where they want to live spectrum, they were still so steadfast. You make it work. They were together. There was no question about breaking up. So I it's it's sort of it might add the stakes or timing pressure to incompatibilities but they were there before the conversation came up i think

the long distance or the the locations was a big role for sure but i think there were but i think that the again who the hell knows i could i be completely wrong. But I feel like it was, again, back to that willingness that one of them was willing to do something, you know, had made this sacrifice and the other person was like my way or the highway. 100%. You always just, when you feel like you're compromising and that person's not, you take a kind of a mental inventory. Right. For sure. What else we got? chris and alana are still together and traveling hannah brown and her boyfriend uh moved in together and i just checked

does not follow the brother still doesn't follow the brother's fiance and hannah g and dylan are in italy looking at wedding venues happy for all of them wonderful a lot of happy couples in the nation right now still Hannah's still not. I just checked on my phone. Nope. I DM'd Hannah and asked if she wanted to, her and her boyfriend wanted to come to the podcast.

She didn't respond. But, I wanted to ask, I'm dying to get an answer. Have you been following that story at all? No, I haven't. What is it?

Hannah Brown's brother is now engaged to the woman that Jed was hanging out with prior to Jed coming on the show. You did not know this? How did I not know this? This is a big deal. I've been recovering from knee surgery and been a little out of the loop. That's my one excuse.

But this is bananas. Yeah. And we've covered it at Nauseam, so we won't get in too much. But Hannah does not follow her on instagram i would also say she doesn't follow hannah it's not a there's no mutuals happening how could that she doesn't follow hannah because hannah doesn't follow her i'm convinced of but i i couldn't like i'm i haven't always been 100 team hannah brown with certain topics but but I am 100% team Hannah Brown on this. But anyway. And it's also like it's a deliberate not follow.

You don't not follow someone's. I guess maybe I don't know enough of the context, but what did this girl do wrong? I don't think she did anything wrong. I think it's not a coincidence. Oh, you think that she went after her brother i just think yeah i don't believe in coincidence all that much and i don't know who went after who i don't know but like she she was doing interviews when the whole jed stuff came out

and i think that means she likes obviously you could she didn't have to go do an interview and that's fine if she did but clearly if you go on the bachelor you like attention if you start doing interviews that you like it you know what i'm saying like and that's fine but i'm just saying i would be skeptical of hannah if i'm hannah brown i would have a lot of skepticism about the access this girl now has to hannah and that would make me, if I'm Hannah, slightly uncomfortable. And maybe, maybe it's all well-intentioned

on her part, but I would, I don't know. They're just, It's awkward. It would make me uneasy. Yeah. And yeah,

I don't know. Is that all the Bat-Sure updates? That's kind of all the updates I got. Everyone seems like they're just kind of chilling. I want to transition to your book, Allison. Overthinking About You. Love the title.

Thank you. I also love the topic. Why did you write this book? Essentially, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's a book about dating relationships and people who suffer from mental health struggles like ADHD, anxiety, who maybe have a habit of ruminating and self-sabotage.

I think a lot of people relate to that. I do. And how did you come to write this book? And what are the big takeaways that might attract people to picking this up and consuming it? Yeah, I mean, mental health has always been a big part of my life. I actually got OCD when I was four years old. So it's always been a constant. And I think that regardless of what was going on in my life, romantic relationships were always my biggest trigger.

my life, romantic relationships were always my biggest trigger. That like nothing could make my mental stability fall apart faster than like some sort of romantic issue or rejection or breakup or problem. And I also was really unable to date in a healthy way. So I was being my worst self constantly. Like I did all of the things that we all have maybe done of tracking my ex-boyfriend's Instagram activity, of assuming if someone doesn't call me back immediately, they hate me. I'm never going to see them again, of like really letting my anxiety and my symptoms really interfere with the relationship. And then a few years ago, I realized that suddenly my relationship with dating was different. Like I had done this work on myself where I like had better coping skills. I had more self-esteem. I had a better vocabulary to be able to explain how my disorders manifest in my life so I could like better articulate that to my partner so like they

could better understand me and not make like harmful assumptions and I was like well this is really interesting I kind of want to share that this that this is possible that like you can kind of like you know I don't think you it doesn't mean you don't have anxiety you don't have OCD anymore but it doesn't need to negatively affect you in the same way in this area of your life and so I was like I want to write about. And at first it really started as like, let me share my story. And then I was like, that's not helpful enough. I want to like blow it out and make it more relatable and more, you know, helpful and to people. So the book is actually filled with all of these expert interviews with different mental health professionals,

psychiatrists, sex therapists, just, you know, psychotherapists, also some dating coaches, some real life couples. And we're talking about things like, how do you get over a breakup better? You know, what effects might medication have in your romantic relationships? You know, because one of the main side effects from SSRIs is, you know, sexual side effects. How do you talk about that with a partner? Things like, how do you know what's really you versus your disorder? So you can sort of figure out, is my anxiety about this person real

and something I should be paying attention to? Or is this relationship anxiety? Sure. And diving into all of that. I opened up, and it was chapter four, how to talk about mental health with your partner. One question I get a lot in relationships, whether it's mental health, whether it's just personal, real personal information. When do I talk about that stuff? How quickly, first date, second date, third date, two months

in, as it relates to mental health and stuff you talk about in this book, what is advice that you have or things that you might've learned from some of the experts you interviewed in terms of how to best navigate it and when is the best time to have some of these conversations? It's such a great question. And I think, unfortunately, it's not like on date three at one hour in, you know, like I think, but I think what it's each relationship is specific, but what you really need to pay attention to is what stage in the relationship are you at? And that can look different for different timelines, but like how, what kind of conversations are you having with this person? So if you're just having conversations that are pretty surface level, where you're just sort of like sharing funny work stories,

and you haven't really gotten into anything deeper, and you're just like going bowling, and it's like, fine, you don't need to share that maybe you've had a past suicide attempt. Like that's maybe not the time. But if you're getting into conversations with this person that are deeper, where you are having things where you're really sharing your history, sharing your life, then suddenly to not talk about your mental health history is an omission in a way. So I think like really paying attention to like, are we getting more serious? Are we having these deeper conversations? Then, okay, now it does feel like maybe I am purposefully withholding this versus like, oh, it's not time yet. And then I think the other really big thing to think about is how you share it. Because we're

a very verbal society, but as humans, we also pick up a lot on body language and we pick up a lot on energy. And so putting in some thought into when am I going to share this stuff? And you you know, you don't share it at a really busy restaurant where the waiter is interrupting you 10 times during the course of the conversation. You kind of want to share these heavier things in a safe space where it's calm, where you feel calm, where you feel like you're sharing it because you have made the decision to share it, not that you're sharing it compulsively. Because I think that there is this sense, and I used to do this, where it was like, let me tell you all of my shit right away, so then you can either reject me or not. But like... You want to get to the acceptance point faster.

Yeah, exactly. But like being able to like sit and be like, no, I'm sharing this because I've decided to share it. Not that like, oh my God, I feel like this has to come out of me right now. As someone who ruminates and overthinks, when you're talking about that, another question that came up is what are some best practices, I guess, for the people who they know they have something to share? And maybe it's as severe as an attempted suicide, or maybe it's just, you know, some insecurity we have that like at some point I want to know this person accepts me for this. Right.

Maybe it's just like I'm a forgetful person, you know, something like that. And we're just, we just, in our past relationship, our ex constantly complained about that. Right. So we know it's an issue. How do you compartmentalize? Thank you.

And to say, all right, it's the first date. We're going out to a bar. Maybe this isn't the time to bring X, Y, or Z up. How do I set that aside so that I can have a conversation, an organic conversation? I can sit down and say, I want to see where this conversation goes. I have some questions I want to learn about this person, things I want to focus on getting to know. And how do I focus on that as opposed to constantly worrying about, is this going to come up?

You know what I'm saying? Because as someone who ruminates and thinks, you're always just like, you're on high alert as opposed to constantly worrying about, is this going to come up? You know what I'm saying? Because as someone who ruminates and thinks, you're always just like, you're on high alert of like waiting for that window. So I'm going to sit, I'm going to wait for the right time. Because when you, when you were,

I asked you that question, you're like, well, there's a time and a place. So maybe kind of suss out the conversation. So as a ruminator, I'm thinking, you know what I'm going to be thinking about? As I'm going to find that window. It's kind of like a game of hopscotch where you're just like, when's the right time to go on? So as a ruminator, I'm thinking, you know what I'm going to be thinking about as I'm going to find that window? It's kind of like a game of hopscotch where you're just like, when's the right time to go on? And so instead of listening

and actively participating in conversation, I'm more focused on when I can sneak this in at the best time, what's going to be best received. Does that make sense? Am I making sense? It makes total sense. And so do you have any best practices of how someone who might relate to that concern, how they can try to

set that aside and actively participate and stay present, especially in the first and second date where it's so important to ask questions and focus on whether you even like that person rather than being accepted by the person you don't even know at all. Well, I think you just really touched on it. You know, like I think a lot of us with, you know, with trauma in our past or also with, you know, these various disorders, it feels like we've got to take what we can get. It's like, okay, we just got to find somebody that's got to accept us. We've got to find somebody that's going to be okay with us. But in reality, we deserve to be just as picky as anybody else. And so I think going into the

mentality, into the conversations more like I'm gathering information too. I'm figuring out if I like this person, like this isn't all about whether or not they're going to like me. This is a two-way street. And my energy is best served sussing them out and deciding if they're worthy of me even sharing this part of myself with them. Yeah, I love that. I always kind of remind people, it's just like, dating's hard. There's a good chance that any of these first or second dates you're going on won't turn into like your person. So just be careful how much personal information you share with someone who might not be in your life three or four months from now.

And also, we always look at it like, okay, this is me, Allison, sharing with Nick, right? And so what's really important is that Nick is learning about Allison in that moment. But really, I'm learning about you in that moment when I'm sharing because I'm learning how you respond to what I'm telling you. Oh, sure. And that is a really revealing moment of like, are they holding space for you? Are they, you know, letting you be vulnerable? Do you say to them, hey, I'm on medication for my depression.

They go, cool. Do you want another drink? Or do they like ask another question? Like how they respond to that information will tell you a lot about that person. And if there's someone you should even continue to share with or spend time with. 100%. Shameless plug, I do have a section in my book that actually talks about like pay attention to the questions people ask you on dates. You gave a perfect example. It's just like if they're not asking you follow-up questions,

oh, why is that? That's really interesting. Tell me more. Then you can tell that they're not actually interested in getting to know you. And you might be able to determine whether someone's motives. We're always worried about people's motives on first dates. Do they really like me? Are they just using me for X, Y, and Z? And by paying attention to what people do ask you with their level of interest. And I think we are, to what people do ask you with their level of interest. And I think we don't do that because we're so worried about what they think of us that we're just so quick to give up our power to complete strangers because of our fear of not being validated or liked or insecure about our principle, whatever our insecurities are.

And I think it's just like a, it's a huge reframe of dating to instead of viewing it as approval or disapproval, to look at it as a compatibility check of like, you're not going to be compatible with everybody. That doesn't mean that you have some huge flaw. That doesn't mean that they're rejecting you. Like if you instead just say, I'm just trying to find someone I fit with,

then I think you can be a lot kinder to yourself when you happen to just not fit with more people. Yeah. As I always say, it seems so simple in theory, but so hard in practice. It's a fascinating thing because it really so many variables that kind of go on into like how we react to certain things and and every for like we have to try not to have every first date to be we have to learn to let things go and and let other our past go and learn. It's like that balance of how do we learn from mistakes, but not carry that weight into new ones. And it's such a, it's such a struggle.

I mean, I had a really unique experience while writing this book in that I actually got engaged while I was writing it. And I was like, oh, amazing. One, this is my dream come true. I've wanted to be married my entire life and two now like when my book comes out I can be like hey I I can do it and so can you like I after after a decade of really struggling to date of having all these horrible habits I locked down a man um and then six months later, he walked out on me with like no explanation, pretty much. And it was this like really horrible experience. But it was also this like, I ended up kind of being the first guinea pig of all the lessons in the book.

Whereas like in the past, I would have internalized that rejection as like saying something really specific about me that I was someone that deserved to be left that I you know that I wasn't good enough that it was like this huge rejection of me as a person but sort of like using all the stuff I'd learned in therapy and like through the course of researching this book instead I was able to just focus on the grief and I think that that's the thing that we don't do enough is like when you lose somebody, even like after the first date, when you're just losing the fantasy of them, it's like there's like two things to it.

There's like the grief and then there's the pain of the rejection. And I think that the more people can just like focus on the grief and that like honoring that you lost something really wonderful potentially, or maybe you thought it was wonderful, but looking back, maybe it wasn't you know and i like to use it people confuse being sad about something and and with with with it being right for you right right yeah you can lose and grieve something and still maybe be better off for it yeah and it's just like sometimes, I think if we're sad about it, then we have to decide, tell ourselves that we have to have it back or, or if we're not, or, or we have to tell ourselves that it meant nothing.

Yeah. You know, it's like those extremes, but to your point, we can honor something, feel sad about it, be sad that it ended. We can acknowledge that it meant a lot to us. And like, we look at like, oh, it was a waste of time, right? Like if it didn't last forever, then it was this like huge waste of time. And that suddenly like these years of memories you have with somebody, you can't even look back on those years of your life because it's too painful or what was the point of having that great day if you're not going to be with that person when

you're 90. And I think that was something I i really struggled with and like i think a lot of people with anxiety it is that black and white thinking all or nothing thinking to have to do a lot of like work to be like i had it's possible that i had a wonderful relationship with somebody and it also didn't last forever and it also ended in a really harmful, hurtful way. But I think when I was younger, because it ended in a harmful, hurtful way, I would have immediately gone to, he never loved me.

It was all a lie. But to be able to be like, he did love me, and then he fell out of love with me, and then that really hurt. That's really hard to do. It's hard. It's really hard.

Yeah. When you told that story it made me feel better because uh not too long ago like i said i have a book coming out it's not out yet i'm i'm having certain people i know and trust read it i just want to get some feedback and then obviously my team's reading it and things like that and one person in my circle said to because i talk about my girlfriend natalie i I name her. She's the only person I name. I don't give a lot of names. I give one name of an ex, change the name. Yeah. A lot of aliases in my book.

Yeah. So I name her and they were just like, hey, are you alone? And I'm like, yeah. They're like, any consideration of just taking Natalie's name out of the book and referring to her as your girlfriend? I'm like, well, what do you mean? Well, so just, you know, and this again, keep in mind, this is a person whose job it is to look after me. You think big picture, you know? And so like, well, I mean, the book's not coming out until October. What if you guys break up? And my response was, well, then we break up. Yeah. Like everything I, and truthfully, everything I'm writing about in this book, I would use, I would utilize.

I'd probably go back and read and remember and try to take my own advice. Right. Because it wouldn't take away from anything I said about Natalie. Because I talk about example, I use examples of things that are going positive in my relationship, things I've learned.

And so a lot of what I talk about, it's just like, I used to do this and now thankfully with my current girlfriend, we do this and it's great. And so the thought and the fear is, well, what if you guys break up? Will it make all those things you said untrue? And to my response, I would say, absolutely not.

In fact, I could argue that it would be a bigger selling point if we did break up i could speak to that because i i i hate how being in relationship for so many people other people deem you as successful in love just because you have somebody rather than the right person and everything i talked about that i enjoy from that relationship if if natalie would wake up and break up with me tomorrow and just disappear and hurt me, it wouldn't change what I appreciate about the relationship. And there would be things that in my next relationship I would look for. And it wouldn't change anything I said in the book.

I don't love that you had to live through that while writing it, but I love that it doesn't cheapen anything you wrote. And if anything, it spoke to, it validated what in fact you did wrote and you could put it to practice. I mean, I had a really interesting experience where he left during the book writing process. So I actually did have to heavily rewrite the book because of it. But also the way that my book was framed,

like I think what you're talking about, you wouldn't. But for me, the original last chapter was entitled, How Do You Make a Relationship Last? And it like had this whole interview with my ex-fiance. And it was sort of from this place of like, look, I did it and the same thing. I'm like, and this is how, look at how successful I am, you know? And then, and he was throughout the book and all this stuff. And then when he left in November, 2020, like luckily for me, I was still in a place where I was, I was about to do the second rewrite. And so I had to completely lose that last chapter, but then I changed it to, how do you not give up and it was like really

this takeaway of like my worst fear like if you had ever asked me what is your worst fear it would literally be like you get engaged you announce it to everyone in the world you're so jazzed about it and then they leave simply because they don't want to be with you like simply because they have fallen out of love with you yeah um nightmare fear not that like i did anything i think is his his explanation was simply something is missing right and so that's like for an anxious mind that's worst case scenario useless because then you're filling in what is that something and it's so easy to fill it in with every insecurity every fear oh something's missing i'm not pretty enough. Something's missing. I'm not funny enough. Something's, you know, like, what is that something? And to like, the fact that I was

able to not do that was like, again, that testament of like me using the things that I had had written in the book. But there was this very, at the time, tragic, but I also could understand funny thing of like my poor editor having to go through the draft and just, like, highlight every time I mentioned my fiancé. And, like, so I could go in and, like, edit it or make it, you know, rechange it a little bit. Very therapeutic, I would imagine. It really was. You know what's so interesting is everyone in my life's reaction for the most part was you dodged the bullet that if this happened this would have happened no matter what that like thank god it

didn't happen when you were already married or when you had kids that like if somebody has the capacity to walk out on you in that way they would have always done it at some point and i really disagreed with that i really think that as i've said already a hundred times on the show context matters so much and i have no idea what would have happened if there hadn't been a pandemic i have no maybe he would have walked out on me no matter what but all i know is like in this version of life which is the only version i'm consciously aware of that's what happened and I think playing this game of like well this was inevitable really rang false to me and I think instead I was like I just had to grieve instead of being upset about the pandemic instead of being like I think I think at the beginning it was really hard for me to accept

because it really felt like it the pandemic had a big part in it but then at a certain point I became well this is the reality I'm living in. This is what ended up happening. And how do I move forward from here? You almost said it at first, like as a way to not take accountability for the breakup. And not you, but I mean, like just accepting the breakup. And then the way you articulated it, it was quite the opposite. It was more like, it just happened. Right. And because it happened, I'm just going to learn how to accept it rather than obsess whether why it happened. Right. You can obsess over why it happened. Yeah. I mean, I think some breakups, there are clear takeaways. You know, like somebody can give you feedback. You're like, oh, okay, I really need to work this into how I'm going to

change my next relationship. I was given no feedback. I was given something is missing. So there wasn't anything for me to really latch on to other than just accepting that it was over and then moving forward. And I'm in a new relationship. We live together. I'm very happy. I think the thing I'm most proud of is that having this like betrayal and hurt didn't let, I didn't close off after it. I think it would have been really easy for me to give up and to be like, oh, this is my worst case scenario happened. I can't possibly put myself out there again. But I didn't want my ex's decision to continue to influence my life if that makes sense like i'm someone who's always wanted to be married and have a long-term partner and so i didn't want this one person's decision

like already he took away my future with him he took away the future i'd had and so i kind of wanted the power to stop there and like i didn't want it to then affect the filter i was gonna the future i was gonna then build on my own yeah not only does it make sense, I think it's a great takeaway just because I think so many of us, I mean all of us at some point and so many of us to this day, allow our exes to have so much influence in our current lives even though they're not in it. And more importantly, they're not even asking for it sometimes. And we give it to them so often. And that's a really hard thing to do.

Allison, thank you so much for joining us. This is a great topic. It's been a ton of fun going through all the Love is Blind Bachelor. And this is a really fascinating topic. So make sure to check out Allison's book, Overthinking About You, available wherever you buy books. Available on May 3rd. So we're...

It's not even out yet. It's yet. We're in the pre-order stage of it all. Pre-order. Go pre-order this book. And if you pre-order, then you get like exclusive merchandise too.

And so we are always, as you know, so thankful for a pre-order. It kind of makes or breaks the books. Go... My book's not out until October. So go ahead and pre-order Allison's first. Can I share one more thing?

Yeah, please. My sister Jocelyn is maybe your biggest fan on Earth. Tell Jocelyn I said hi. Thank you. Shout out to Jocelyn. Thank you so much for coming. Pre-order Overthinking About You. Yes.

We will put a link in our show description. And it looks incredibly fascinating. Or else, can they find you on social? Yeah, so I'm at Allison Raskin on social. I also have a mental health Instagram account called At Emotional Support Lady, which is also a sub stack. And then my podcast is called Just Between Us.

Awesome. Anywhere you listen to podcasts. Any called just between us awesome anywhere you listen to podcasts anywhere you listen anywhere you listen to podcasts um so check that out wonder you're such a wonderful guest thank you so much for coming uh thank you for listening guys don't forget tomorrow cindy eckhart talking about uh women's sexuality uh being horny, I guess. I don't know. And are there things we can do about it? And is the pharmaceutical industry keeping doing some shady things? Keeping the orgasm gap alive. Yeah, keeping the orgasm gap alive. Well said.

Well, I can't wait to talk to Cindy. I think it's going to be really fascinating. So make sure you check that out. Subscribe, review. Go check out Justin Long on Ask Nick. Bye.