The Viall Files - E410 The Ultimatum’s April Marie Tells All, plus Johnny & Amber Trial

Episode Date: April 19, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelor Gossip Edition! Today we are joined by The Ultimatum’s April Marie where she recounts her time on the show and answers all of our burning questions. April spills the tea on her split up with Jake, the most shocking moments while on the show, and how she’s found love after the finale on her own terms. We dive into April getting scouted, why Jake had videos of twerking girls on his phone, and how the release of the show made feelings bubble up again. We also welcome our friend, Elizabeth Wagmeister, to break down the trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. We talk about mutually toxic relationships, how this trial differs by focusing on their whole careers, why this trial is happening now, and how to judge testimonies that aren’t clean. We also talk about our obsession with Harry Styles, Nick’s potential interaction with him while jogging, how Coachella is a really fun inconvenience, and an update on how Hannah Brown really feels about her sister-in-law. Nick also talks about going crazy at Megan Thee Stallion’s performance and the difference between Weekend 1 and 2 for Coachella.  “I felt cheated on and I wasn’t even dating him.”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Cocofloss: Go to http://www.Cocofloss.me/Viall to get 20% off sitewide and free shipping! Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @itsaprilmarie @ewagmeister @ultimatumnetflix See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the vile files freestyle edition are we what are we calling this It's Tuesday. I don't know. The Tuesday episode. We have a blockbuster episode for you, if I do say so myself. We have April Marie from The Ultimatum with us today. She talks some shit.

She shares her truth. She didn't talk shit. She talked shit. Or she was wonderful. She definitely gave us some insight about some stuff that happened off screen and some... I'm putting words in April's mouth. I don't think she...

She said multiple times, she was like, I don't want to talk shit. I just want to be honest about all this stuff that was going out. I thought she was wonderful. If the truth is talking shit, then that's kind of the fault

of the other person, I think. I felt she shed some really helpful light on the Jake of it all. And we got some Colby behind the scenes as well. Got some Colby behind the scenes. We also have my friend Elizabeth Wagmeister from Variety Magazine coming on to give her expertise and her insight on the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial going on, which we will get into a little bit. Tomorrow on the Going Deeper episode, we have Colby and Madeline from the Ultimatum to get an update on their life, their baby that's on it, their baby girl that's weeks away,

I think, from being delivered. We'll get to know them a little bit, get their point of view from their experience on the show, some burning questions that people have. So, yeah, great episode for you tomorrow, along with, I don't know, I'm sure there'll be something more we'll have to discuss in terms of other culturally relevant things. Why do we have a picture of Natalie and I up right now?

Because I thought we wanted to talk about Coachella. We do, yeah. It's like, like you know people have photos in their office it's like this is your equivalent so like uh we look hot so like going forward i just thought we'd keep it up maybe we wanted to look at it i was uh at coachella this weekend do we need to specify coachella for those who maybe don't know for those of you who don't know what Coachella is, it is a music festival and weirdly enough, not in Coachella, California. It's like in Indio, California, which is next to Coachella, which is also next to Palm Springs. I've been to Lollapalooza. I've been to GovBall in New York. I like, I, I, I've never considered myself a big, like huge festival person. Like I've never like, I wasn't like one who was like, I, I, I've never considered myself a big, like huge festival person. Like, I've never like, I wasn't like one who was like, we got to go camping, you know, and do a festival,

but I do like them to sum up Coachella. I don't care who you are. I don't care your station life. I don't care your age. I don't care how much money you have or how much money you don't have. If you go to Coachella more than anything, it a pain in the ass it just is like you could be the richest person in the world but where it is and where it's located you still have to go out of your way and spend a little bit more money or you know what I'm saying it's a super inconvenient Rallapalooza it's like super convenient because it's like you just have to be in Chicago. And then like Coachella is like in the desert, so it's dusty and windy. It's just a giant pain in the ass.

That being said, once you're at Coachella, once you're on the ground and in the event, it is beautiful. Like when you kind of take a step back and look around like all the aesthetics that they have and the Ferris wheel, it is really just something like when you there are a couple moments where we're natalie and i were there with friends and we're just like this is this place is insane it's really kind of a beautiful spectacular place but that said harry

styles um i am we're we're uh we are a team harry Styles podcast going forward. We're a Stan account. I don't know how you two feel about Harry Styles. The man is... Electric. Oh, truly. Dynamite. Because my entire For You page,

and this is why I'm very grateful for TikTok, because I don't think I would have survived Coachella, but then you get the videos of everyone posting about him, and I was like, I've seen his performance now from multiple angles. And even through my phone, I was like, this man. Yeah. So we made some friends, Natalie and I. Erica Purcella, she's a big TikToker.

We've been trying to get her on. She lives on the East Coast. So she'll eventually be on this podcast. So Natalie was a big fan of hers. And so we just connected and we ran into her and her fiance, Scott, fun couple, lovely couple. And we hung out with them a lot. And my other friend, um, she's like, was a Harry Stan, um, um, Matt, Matt, Matt King and Patricia. So Patricia was a big Harry style. And she's like, oh, he's, he's, he's amazing. And I'm like,

oh, cool. And then Scott out of nowhere goes, yeah, I've seen Harry Styles. He's, he's really good. And I was like, interesting. Cause Scott, if you, if you don't know him, uh, you wouldn't expect he might like advocate for Harry Styles. And then Harry, Harry, he came on, his opener was incredible. Like I've from the moment he, they show this like video of basically animals, like having sex in the forest. And you were kind of distracted watching this. And then there was this shot of just Harry's just standing there, staring off into the crowd with this big, like furry coat on. And my breath was taken away. And it was true.

Like every, every moment of every part of the concert, he just looked like an absolute rock star and i have never what i was what i was most taken back by was harry styles ability to connect with his women audience that's what i was kind of blown away by and he he he debuted this new song it's called boyfriend oh my god his speech before was so funny yeah and he was just like oh the boyfriend has a boyfriend cheers who doesn't have a boyfriend cheers and then he's like to all the boyfriends fuck you yeah i was like fuck off or fuck you and i'm sitting here thinking harry styles is writing a song called boyfriend which and it was at a concert so i don't i don't know what all the words were to the song. I'm assuming it's about the shitty things boyfriends do in relationships. And I'm like, Harry Styles is writing a song about boyfriends to relate to women as this heterosexual male.

And I'm thinking, the nerve of Harry Styles, thinking he can write a song. But the guy pulls it off. It's incredible. The first verse is, boyfriends, but the guy pulls it off. It's incredible. And the first verse is boyfriends. They think you're so easy. They take you for granted. They don't know. They're just misunderstanding you, you you're back at it again.

Yeah, no. And he's, he did not come to play. I'm like, Harry's this out here relating to women. And then it's just like he, and he's,

he's, he's clearly comfortable with women. He's got women in his, a big part of his band. And I just, it's just like, he's clearly comfortable with women. He's got women in a big part of his band. And I was fascinated by watching the connection between Harry Styles and the audience and the women connecting with Harry. It was really just like a sight to see. And he's an incredible performer. He's the coolest person in the world. Anyway,

I don't know. Also, it reminded me of a time that I actually had like a Harry Styles, I was running, this is months ago, this is last year,

I was running in my neighborhood on my route, as one does, and just, I think it was hot, so I was running with my shirt off. And,

and towards the end of my run, a guy in a old school mercedes drove up on a stop sign and we made eye contact and i thought to myself is that fucking harry styles honestly so much that and and i've heard like harry styles is kind of random where like you would you might find harry styles at a place where you might like he just kind of this old kind of let retro like mercedes band in the suburbs suburbs of la and i don't know if it was him but i was so convinced it might be him that i dm'd him oh my god what did you say

he's in the dm did you send him a photo of himself and make a comment on it? No, I'm like, I'm honestly kind of remembering this now. April 20th, 2020. Any chance that was you I saw while running, driving, and driving a classic Mercedes Benz in Studio City? Probably not, but big fan either way, Nick. But I was convinced it was him, and we made eye contact. Like, I felt like I was, like, looking at him thinking, is that Harry Styles? And it seemed like this person was looking at me wondering. Is that the bachelor?

But I also, I heard Harry Styles used to date Kendall Jenner and she's a bachelor fan. And I think Harry's talked about being a bachelor fan before. So it's possible. I don't think it was him. But anyways, this is all to say, Harry Styles is one of the most talented performers of our generation, and I think will go down in history as one of the best of all time.

Like, David Bowie kind of vibes. Also, Freddie Mercury vibes. The man just, like, captivates an audience in a way that most people don't. And also incredible. Also another takeaway. I also, I've seen, I've seen Megan Thee Stallion twice

in the Less Than The Calendar year. God bless you. That is, you are so lucky. You are a lucky man. Yeah. And I don't know if everyone listening to this podcast is a Megan Thee Stallion.

A hot girl Meg fan. I don't know. But to be honest, I knew I had heard of her. I knew who she was. I saw her for the first time at GovBall. Natalie's a big fan. She's like, oh, we got to go see Megan. I'm like, okay, I'm fine with that.

Came out, rocked it. Same, Coachella rocked it. But if you're a fan of Megan Thee Stallion, the women who are fans of Megan Thee Stallion, they fucking get hyped for Megan. And honestly, it is a sight to see. Like I just like, just watching Harry Styles connect with women

was also like this kind of amazing thing, but differently. And then when Megan Thee Stallion came out, like women get turned up for her. And like, there's just, like, this whole crowd of women just get fucking empowered and just fucking just...

Get to, like, unleash. Unleash. And it is a sight to see. And I gotta say, I'm really impressed. Like, just all kinds of women. Universally, I don't care what you look like,

who you're from, but if you're a fan of Megan Thee Stallion, you get turned up for her, and they fuck with Megan, and Megan fucks right back. And it is kind of like, it's a little scary, and empowering, and pretty cool. Like, as a straight white male, I was like, okay, fuck! Like, she has an army of women, and it's a pretty cool thing.

So, if you have the pleasure of seeing Megan Thee Stallion in concert, I suggest you go. Let's get into some not-so-sexy news. Absolutely. So the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial is happening. What a mess. It's very public. I think it ties into—so ultimately, because this is about def defamation and Elizabeth Wagmeister is coming on the show, and I'm sure she will give us a very well-researched background. But essentially, this lawsuit is a battle between both of them where Amber Heard says that Johnny Depp abused her and Johnny Depp says that she abused him.

So we have like mutual claims of abuse and like in the form of defamation. So it's very it's a very it's starting I think a big cultural conversation. I think it sort of feels like a resurgence of the word

Me Too you know like I feel like I haven't heard Me Too in the media. Yeah it's been really crazy just because like i hadn't haven't followed it that closely right but johnny depp and amber heard are two big celebrities johnny depp has one has been one of the biggest celebrities for a long time so you just like you if you pay any attention to any type of pop culture you hear about it you know you always again want to believe the the victims and then lately with this particular trial there's been new information coming out about amber heard which is kind of just shocking and surprising but then also potentially disappointing with when it comes to

are are they both victimizing each other is one person lying and the other not like we don't really know and it seems to have um because now there's like a video testimony from um her former assistant who worked from her i believe from like 2012 to 2015 so like around the same time and she's been on her face yeah um because the assistant was like trying basically the assistant started out and it was going to be a very flexible gig paid hourly then amber wanted it to be full-time offered her like 50k a year salary and this woman had worked as an assistant before and was like actually no like i'm worth more i want x y and z um she wanted almost double and right to ask amber apparently went up to her and was like yelling at her like how she could ask such a thing and spit in her face and there's a lot of details

that came out like i don't know what's going on behind closed doors with johnny and amber but if someone spits on someone's face to me that says that person i don't care who they are is insanely reactive like that person can't control their temper. And reactive people who have tempers, to me, they're a danger to other people because if you're that reactive that you don't know, there's something inside you that says, I want to spit and then I'm, nope, don't spit. That would be, then you can't control

how you react to people. And people around you are at risk, whether it's from verbal assault or potentially physical assault or just germs, I suppose. But like that to me says a lot about someone and how reactive they are. And to hear that about Amber Heard to to me, was incredibly damning in terms of how she reacts to being frustrated. And on the other side, there's like a lot of conversation about like Johnny Depp's like sobriety and drug use. And so I think it's like a really nuanced, nuanced case where it's like you have two clearly flawed individuals. Like this was an insanely unhealthy relationship, regardless of sort of like what this trial finds about them.

And it's I think it's sometimes challenging because, you know, as you were saying before about how important it is to believe women, it can be hard to sort of unpack the nuances of both of their characters without looking like you're looking for a way to invalidate that experience of abuse. And it's like a really complicated thing. that experience of abuse and it's like a really complicated thing i feel like right now it's like we know johnny it seems like before it was johnny was at fault for some of his behavior but now what we're hearing it doesn't necessarily mean that johnny what didn't do anything wrong but also it seems like maybe amber also played a role but what does that mean yeah i think there were some claims of him defending himself which is like different than him saying there was never any physical altercation it's just kind of recontextualizing what was going on what their

dynamic and we still don't know if that's true either like i guess isn't it it's totally possible that they both at different times were the aggressor and the abuser of the other person. Right? That's like, it seems to be the potential of the case. Anyways, Elizabeth is here. Let's bring her on and get her insight on this messy, messy situation. Hot girls floss. Hot people floss. Hot people floss.

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Go to cocofloss.me slash viall to get 20% off your four-spool set and free shipping. That's c-o-c-o-f-l-o-s-s dot me, m-e, slash v-i-a-l-l, and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. All orders over $20 ship free in the U.S. Elizabeth, welcome back. Thank you, Nick. Love chatting with you always. Always. You're always great. We are having you back to talk about the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial, which unfortunately is kind of just sad and just kind of, well, messy, I think is the

and just kind of, well, messy, I think is the kind of the theme or like the consensus of what's going on. But we wanted to bring you on. Obviously, you've been covering this story. There's so many moving pieces. I mean, it's the who's who of witnesses in terms of people being brought up. And so I'd love for you to help us break it down. What is going on and what are the ramifications of this trial? Because I feel like there's, there are some ramifications, obviously

there's some me too elements and like what, you know, I feel like a lot of people are kind of in, you know, watching this and want to know who's telling the truth. It's kind of a, he said, she said situation. You know, there's these tapes of Amber and Johnny talking and kind of these accusations and threats being thrown out. So take it away, Elizabeth, walk us through what's going on and kind of tell us about like, how are people seeing this and what does this all mean? Yes. So your word, Nick, to say it's a mess, that really is a good describing word to kind of categorize what has gone on so far and kind of throughout the past few years.

So it is a very sad situation, but there's all these allegations flying from both sides. And as you said, everyone wants to know who is telling the truth. Obviously this case is being heard in front of a jury. So the jury will decide that. But this really goes back years ago. So Amber Heard and Johnny Depp, they were married for two years. And then Amber Heard, she wrote a piece for the Washington Post. It was an op-ed. And she never mentioned Johnny Depp. but she spoke about how

she became kind of the poster child for abuse. And people obviously kind of connected the dots and said, well, she's clearly talking about Johnny Depp. And it wasn't just people who said that it was Johnny Depp and his lawyers as well. So they hit her with a $50 million defamation suit. And they said that she created this hoax. That was the work they used. She created a hoax to basically take down his career. So then she returned and hit him with a $100 million counter suit saying, no, I'm telling the truth.

This isn't a hoax. But a lot of people are asking, hasn't this already been in court? And it's quite confusing, Nick. There was another trial, but it wasn't directly related to the piece that Amber Heard wrote. In 2018, there was a case that was overseas in the UK. It was a libel case because Johnny Depp was suing The Sun, which is a tabloid overseas. It's like the page six of the UK, basically. like the page six of the UK basically. And they called him a wife beater that was on the front page. It said wife beater, but Johnny Depp lost that suit. The judge ruled that there was substantial evidence that he was in fact a wife beater. So he lost that suit and he still went forth with this suit in Virginia, which is interesting. So as you said, there's the who's who of witnesses coming up and you referenced this video and that's just kind of one piece of evidence. But the big issue here,

well, the biggest issue here is that it's a case of abuse. And obviously you never want to be dealing with abuse and with domestic violence. But the issue with the ramifications for both of their careers is this is like the worst PR nightmare you could ever have. Because as a celebrity, the last thing you want is drugs, abuse, blood, defecation. Like seriously, these are all words that are coming up on the stand. So now whatever happens, whether Johnny Depp wins and is victorious against Amber Heard or whether he is not, the damage is really already done. And he's been dropped from the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise. He's been dropped from Fantastic Beasts.

So the damage is done. There's really no turning back when it comes to his career. Who do you think has, at this point leading up to the trial, who do you think has more to lose, Amber or Johnny? to the trial, who do you think has more to lose, Amber or Johnny? Because, and correct me if I'm wrong, I've been under the impression that the reason why Johnny's going forward is because he's already been dropped by these franchises. It seems like he feels like he's already lost the career that he's speaking of. And it almost seems like since this trial started started it's just like people might have had this kind of negative uh opinion about johnny but with all this stuff coming out about amber's behavior how she

spit in her assistant's face and kind of like uh other people coming forward talking about her character it almost seems like she's had more to lose and if if nothing else, now people are just looking at both Johnny and Amber as, again, two incredibly messy and potentially toxic people that when this is all said and done, you might see both of their careers essentially be over. Absolutely. And you could kind of make the case that Johnny Depp, as you said, a lot of the damage was done after Amber Heard published that op-ed. He was dropped from the Pirates franchise. And he's still working, but most of his work is overseas. And, I mean, obviously, we don't have to state this.

Johnny Depp was one of the biggest stars of all time. And I think it was about 10 years ago, he was actually the top-earning actor in Hollywood, you know, making over $20 million per movie. That clearly has changed. He's had a series of flops and now he's really not being cast much at all. So I think for Johnny Depp, he feels a strong conviction to clear his name. Perhaps he thinks that he can kind of recoup this career as well. But Johnny Depp has a very strong fan base. I mean, incredibly strong. You will, I almost don't even want to say this, but it's true. You will tweet

this out and the comments will be, it's a lot. Like he has a very strong, passionate fan base. So I have wondered, is Johnny Depp also feeling empowered by his fans who are standing behind him? And he knows that he has people who are standing behind him. So perhaps if he wins this battle in court, he thinks that, you know, fans translate to dollars at the box office and perhaps, you know, he can make a comeback. But then you can make the case on, to your point, Amber Heard, she, you know, she's in her thirties. She clearly has her whole life ahead of her she hasn't had the career that Johnny Depp had for so many decades so you can make the case that does she have more to lose because she's kind of stopping with her career before it really got to the point

that it could have but again obviously we're talking about career and first and foremost what we want to put at the forefront is that there are allegations of abuse and really none of them come off being pristine and a hundred percent clean because the issue when you go in court and when you have to testify and when there's evidence brought, it's really, it's quite literally airing your dirty laundry. That's why celebrities always settle cases. They never want to go into court for that very reason.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it almost, it feels, and correct me, this feels kind of unprecedented in terms of the level of celebrities going to court, not settling and to your, like you said, airing their dirty laundry. And maybe that's where the fascination is. And again, it's just incredibly sad because we are talking about domestic abuse and we're talking about potential victims. And yeah, it's just like you don't know. And then you don't know who to believe. Then you have the fan element. We now live in a time where we don't necessarily believe who's right. We believe who we like the most often in our society. And then how is, uh, what are the conversations going on when it comes to like the Me Too movement and, and those things where Amber heard, like you said,

she was, you know, the poster child for domestic abuse. What are the, what are you hearing in terms of conversations going on in those communities in terms of the ramifications of potentially someone like Amber? If it's found out or believed that maybe she was lying, what does that look like in terms of the fallout and how it affects people who have been victims of domestic abuse and wanting to believe people and hear people who are victims? of domestic abuse and, you know, wanting to believe people and hear people who are victims? Yeah, well, I think, first of all, I think there will be a substantial amount of evidence on both sides that shows that perhaps they both could have been at fault in some ways. I think some of that already came out in the previous trial in 2018. you know, we have seen that video footage. I mean, anyone listening right now can Google that right now. And you see Johnny Depp appearing to be quite intoxicated and yelling. And, you know, you do see these things on video. And that came forth

through, that leaked in the tabloids, but that also came out in the last trial. And then one of the other things, you know, last week during this trial, a therapist who had been seeing Johnny Depp and Amber Heard took the stand. And I know Nick on your podcast, you often talk to relationship therapists. And I thought that her testimony was really heartbreaking because she testified that she saw mutual abuse and that this was a couple that was constantly fighting and that they would kind of fight back at each other. So I think that's also an interesting layer. But to, you know, to answer your question about the Me Too movement, I think there's two sides of it. they might say with any case or with any story, if the alleged victim is lying, then obviously that doesn't bode well. But on the other hand, I did a piece at the time of the first trial with Johnny Depp, just about really taking a look at the career and the downfall that he has endured there. And I remember I spoke to Gloria Allred, who is, of course, one of the,

you know, biggest attorneys of all time, feminist, women's rights activist. And she said that, you know, she really looks forward to the day where it doesn't take more than one woman. You know, she said, if a woman like Amber Heard is alleging that Johnny Depp abused her and has some evidence, is alleging that Johnny Depp abused her and has some evidence, then why is it, you know, why do we need so many others? And then the celebrity element is interesting too. You know, if Amber Heard, who might not be the biggest A-lister in the world, but she certainly has more power and more fame than your average Joe, you know, if she's saying something and she has to go through years of court battles, then what does that say for the woman at home who might be suffering domestic abuse? You know, there's all these layers of why women don't come forward because they're not believed. Uh, so I

think there's just, there's so many interesting layers here, Nick. Yeah, no, it's, uh, it's messy and, uh, really unfortunate. How do you see it playing out? I, well, I really think this doesn't end well for either one of them. If we look through the lens of just Hollywood and their career, I think Johnny Depp, I don't see him being hired in a big franchise anytime soon. And Amber Heard, I think, you know, unfortunately, this is going to be her defining factor. And that is unfortunate. And I think that's kind of the price you pay for speaking up when you are a public figure or not. You know, think of the women who were complete unknowns, not actors who testified against Harvey Weinstein.

You know, when you Google their name, they're forever tied to it. testified against Harvey Weinstein. You know, when you Google their name, they're forever tied to it. So I think with Amber Heard, she will forever be known as Johnny Depp's ex-wife who, you know, spoke out against him for abuse. And I don't know how that bodes for a career. You know, I think it's sad to say, but I think a Hollywood studio, they're going to want to shy away from that. You know, they just don't want to be involved. So even if she is victorious in this case and indirectly was victorious in the other case since Johnny Depp lost, it's still something that is next to her name forever. So I don't think this ends well for either one of them. And I do think in certain cases, it really can do good for the whole Me Too movement and for victims of domestic abuse everywhere. But I think in this case, it really seems to be about two people. It's almost hard to see the bigger message here

and how it helps. This seems to be so messy. It really feels to boil down to two people and their relationship. Yeah. I guess it maybe just brings up a question for later discussion too, because I guess you mentioned the therapist who came on and talked about mutual abuse. And I have a lot of ignorance around that. I don't know. What does that mean in terms of, the question is, I feel like a lot of people wouldn't ask the question, well, who started it or something like that? Or how does that look when you have two people mutually abusing each other? Does it even matter at that point? What does that look like? And then you have elements of, you know, in a heterosexual relationship, a man and a woman, obviously, there's layers there. And it's a lot more, you lot more to peel back and have conversations about. But yeah, I feel like mutual abuse probably happens often, but how do we interpret that and how do we learn from that and where do we go from there? I don't know if, well, neither of us are therapists and we don't have those answers, but maybe we, maybe it's something we can peel back and learn later on.

Because that must happen all the time at some point in relationships where you have two people who are toxic and, you know. Yeah. And it's also because it's a defamation case. like certain elements of the abuse she suffered from Johnny Depp, how does that complicate things if she's omitting, like, you know, because she's not technically lying, but she is omitting information that's pivotal. Like in the defamation of it all, like how does that relate to the way the court is going to view her statements? Yeah.

Or not even the court, but just also, because I feel like to your point, Elizabeth, there's the court. It's just like none of us in this room, who wins this civil court in terms of who has to pay who money seems to be second. That's like between Johnny and Amber. and is meaningful to like a lot of people paying attention to this court because of the ramifications of, of, of the fact that we're talking about abuse in this relationship. And I think, you know, that's seems to be more meaningful to a lot of people who, you know, might be victims of domestic abuse, men and women, right? Like the, I think a lot of people are kind of looking at this, at this case as kind of a guide of where do we go from here.

We're potentially setting precedents and things like that. And then other victims might question, to your point, Elizabeth, who's going to believe me if they don't believe so-and-so? And if I come forward, is it going to get messy like this? A lot of people who are victims are confronted with two terrible choices. It's just like either come forward and get dragged through the mud and have my character being questioned or or feel like my abuser or my predator is going to get away with, you know, making me a victim. And it's it's unfortunately just a sad situation. Yeah, I have a question for Elizabeth, which is just that, you know, kind of as we're talking about how like the public court or how this has become an issue that's really a lot of people are

weighing in on. But as a journalist who's kind of doing some pretty thorough research about it, I'm curious if there's been any misconceptions or if you're hearing any lines or narratives that aren't the whole truth in this public discourse right now that you think it would be important to clarify or sort of correct people on? I mean, I don't know if there's any kind of like twisted truths with this, but I think what is interesting, and I have not been in the court for this case whatsoever, you know, I've kind of covered it with a bird's eye view, but I have been in court for other cases. And what people forget is what is being tried is

what's happening in that courtroom and nothing else. So in the media and right now, you know, we're talking about kind of everything and Johnny Depp's career and Amber Heard's career and their fame and all these things. So it's very rare in a typical case that's not dealing with celebrities. You don't know anything about them. So the jury is really, you know, looking at what's happening in that courtroom and that's it. That is supposed to be the case in any case as well. But it's really hard to, for a jury to not have any opinions. Like there is not, you'd be hard pressed to find a single person in the world who doesn't know who Johnny Depp is.

So they're coming in with preconceived notions. But oftentimes I think the verdict comes out and it could be surprising. But I think that's because it's dealing with what happens in the courtroom. You know, for instance, I'll bring up Harvey Weinstein again because I covered that case. I was in court every single day for that two-month trial. And in that case, you know, from the outside, I think everyone said, well, of course he's going to be guilty. Look, there's been hundreds of women who have accused him and, you know, all of that.

But when you come into the courtroom, it's only the evidence that is there. So you might have hundreds of accusations against you, but if it's only the evidence that is there. So you might have hundreds of accusations against you, but if there's only six women on the stand, it doesn't make the case as strong. So I think, you know, that's something that we have to remember is what is happening in that courtroom is only what's happening in that courtroom, but it's going to be hard to find a jury that can, can anyone really say they don't already have an opinion going into this. So I think that'll be interesting to watch play out. 100%. Elizabeth, this has been really helpful. Thank you for helping us break this all down. Please, again,

let our audience know where they can find you, listen to you, read all your stuff, a variety. Yes. First of all, thank you for having me. I always love hanging out with you guys. And you can find my work in Variety Magazine and on Variety.com. And all of my social handles are EWagmeister. Awesome. Thanks so much, Elizabeth. Thank you. Well, that was very insightful. I think my biggest question after talking to elizabeth and hearing her talk about the the therapist that worked with both amber and johnny about how they seem to both be guilty of abuse i'm really curious is it really like i'd love to get a professional insight on i guess at that point does it matter is is it about who's at fault? You know, because like,

we always talk about in abusive situations, how it seems to be like one abuser and then one victim, but I suppose, and this seems to potentially be the case here is that you have two people victimizing one another. And then if that is the case, are, are they, should they both be punished for it and held accountable or is it just simply saying you guys need to like distance yourself from each other like you know what i'm saying like that seems to be more complicated and at that point is it even possible to go back to the origin of when things got toxic you know yeah? Yeah. I don't know. It's like kind of, it's a weird thing. It's such a complex thing

and I like how Elizabeth was able to just like break it down, all the facts and she was very, she was a nice resource. I just hope for everyone's sake that this trial between two very public figures who ultimately I, probably only care about themselves and how this situation affects them, I hope they are mindful of how, because of who they are, how the outcome of this trial will have ramifications on so many other situations like this if nothing else how people believe people in their stories so but yeah this could set a precedent imagine one day they're like well

in herd v depth i mean yeah i don't know the ruling was all right well before we get to april what do we have any uh bachelor stuff that's worthy of our takes? I want to say commentary. Kind of slow week. There was a lot of Bachelor people at Coachella. Clayton and Susie talked a little bit about what we discussed last week. They gave their takes on the whole thing. I believe we're going to have Clayton back on next Tuesday.

Amazing. Ooh. Just a little tease. Get his thoughts. Yeah. Just a little update from, from AFR, you know, so we are scheduled to follow up with Clayton. Maybe Susie will join. I don't know. I want to give Clayton, uh, the opportunity to hear from him. I don't, we haven't really heard

a lot from Clayton. I know we had that kind of scandal that he was a part of, but now that things have died down, him and Susie are together. How is he feeling about AFR? How is he feeling about that whole situation? And so we'll get a chance, hopefully, to talk with Clayton next Tuesday. and the only thing I'm interested in. And it was Hannah Brown's interview that she gave. And I saw a clip. And it's such a giving story. It's amazing. She clearly fucking hates her sister-in-law. Right?

I mean, hate is a strong word, but... She loathes the fact that they're getting married. Yes. And hates that she has to be there and hates that she has to... Right? Yeah, I think she's very frustrated with how things played out. Yes, yes. And hates that she has to be there and hates that she has to, right? Yeah, I think she's very frustrated with how things played out. But I feel like she, and I would do the same. Again, completely team Hannah Brown here, that she must want people to know that she doesn't like this.

All while simultaneously trying to say the right thing. Without just saying the right thing. Without just saying the right thing. I mean, if you look at the words themselves, it's a perfect statement. But then you have to

read between the lines. And you have to watch it. If you go back and watch it, you can tell she, you can tell she's deliberately trying to look like she's

trying to say the right thing. Does that make sense? Yeah. She writes, I just want my brother to be happy. And yeah,

they are getting married. And I be there i want to support my brother continue to grow and if they make each other happy i'm happy not like of course my brother is in love i i want to know why she doesn't like again i'm, I'm Tina, Hannah Brown here, but I would love to hear. Can we ask her? Can we, how do we get these questions? I DM'd Hannah and asked her if she wanted to come on the podcast. She did not respond. She did see it though.

She left me on read, but I understand. I mean, like we've been, we've had opinions about Hannah Brown on the show. I thought they were fair, but you know, I would understand if Hannah might not want to come on. But she is more than welcome. And I could not be more of a team Hannah Brown fan when it comes to this particular topic. I couldn't be more team Hannah Brown.

But I want to know. I don't think she's going to. Of course, she's not going to come on because I want to know why she hates her sister-in-law so much. And she can't answer that. I want to know why she hates her sister-in-law so much. And she can't answer that. Do you think, do you mean sort of whether it's more of like the situation and the principle and the loyalty of it all and feeling betrayed?

Or do you think, or potentially also an issue with this person's personality? It must be right. The way she treats her brother. Whatever it is. Yeah. It's like, there's so many possibilities because Haley,

her connection with Jed, like she could be the greatest person in the world. She could be funny and amazing and like the coolest hang. And Hannah, now she must have gotten an opportunity to get to know her. And at any point, Hannah could be like, you know what? Fuck, what a weird way how we met and had a weird way that we got intersected. But like, you're cool. And maybe I wanted to hate you, but I don't. But that's not how Hannah Brown feels. Hannah Brown has gotten to know her. She's met her.

And she's still like, you're going to make me do this, aren't you? You're going to make me do this. And she's still not following her. If they make each other happy. If. If. If. Not they make each other happy, so. Yeah, she's still in this statement doubting whether they make each other happy. If. If. If. Not they make each other happy, so.

Yeah, she's still in this statement doubting whether they make each other happy. Imagine Hailey sending her one of those Etsy bridesmaid proposal boxes. Like, will you be in my wedding? Oh my God, yeah. Is Hannah going to be in the bridal party? And go to the bachelorette. I hope not. For everyone's sake.

Yeah. If you're Haley and you read this statement like what do you think about what do you what how do you feel about that i think it depends on how secure she feels in her romantic relationship because i think if you feel really secure in your romantic relationship you're like you can like really just like brush it off but i think if you're feeling any kind of like doubt about it, that's something that could be a real like kind of like twisty knife. It was the most telling. It was an amazing answer.

It was really good, Hannah. Thank you. You are welcome to come on. I know you're not going to. But someday I hope to hear what it is about your future sister-in-law that you hate so much. I believe that she probably has a valid reason. That's just in my gut. I could be totally wrong, but I'm dying to know.

Shall we get to April? Yes. So many burning questions, and April delivers. She does. April, how's it going? What's up, dude? So happy to have you on. How have you on.

How have you been? I'm doing good. Hanging in there. New year, new me. New hair? Not in April from the ultimatum. So happy about that. I cry a little bit less.

Well, let's start there. This is my first opportunity of talking with someone from the ultimatimatum I feel like there's so many kind of questions about well there's questions about you and your relationship with Jake and then there's this questions about the show in general you know when I first started watching I was a big fan of the show huge fan of you I thought you you did amazing I loved your honesty I love how you just kind of you shot from the hip and I think you kind of surprise Thank you. I loved your honesty. I love how you just kind of, you shot from the hip. And I think you kind of surprised a lot of people with your willingness and ability to kind of dig deep and kind of fight through, you know, some of your fears and insecurities. That was great.

The first episode, when I was watching it, my first thought, and I feel like I speak for a lot of people watching it, was like, who the fuck would do this show? And I only say that because like, as someone who's, you know, been on, I've fucking, I've been on reality TV. A lot of people are like,

what the fuck? Why would you, but like as a single person, you're just kind of like yellow. I'm just going to go whatever. But this was a collection of people who were in love, uh, had a partner and they all agreed whether,

whether they got dragged to it or not. You know, as Drake, as Jake, Drake, not Drake. You were not dating Drake, unfortunately. Dragged Jake. He's Drake. You dragged Jake. But he still agreed. I mean, say what you want.

I mean, I don't know how, like, you know, how often, like, like, oh, you made, like, he, you didn't make Jake go. You, he went. Everybody had to do their own contract. Everyone had, exactly. We went through interviews, like. So walk us through, like, how did you even get approached for this? Because this, this is not like, this is season one. This is not like, you know, after 20 seasons of The Bachelor or even like a couple seasons of Love is Blind, people are just like, oh, I would love to do that show. That'd be cool. But I'm always kind of fascinated when a show premieres and no one's heard about it. How did you first hear about it? And what was that conversations between like between you and Jake? Like who approached you or did you approach someone else? And then how did what were those conversations like between you and Jake when

you were, according to Jake, basically, essentially forcing him to go on this show? Yeah. So Jake and I lived together for the entire year and a half prior to the show. And I got a comment on one of my photos that was like, hey, we're looking for couples in Austin who are ready in strong relationships for upcoming TV reality. you know, ready in strong relationships for upcoming TV reality. I didn't think anything of it. I thought it was like a complete scam and just like someone out there trying to put on some kind of sitcom. But then another comment came and I brought it to Jake's attention and Jake goes, I got the same comment on my Instagram and it was the same guy. So finally we responded. One interview led to another interview down the line of basically

getting scouted for the show and making it to the final list of eight couples that were going to be on there. And after three to four interviews with Netflix, we were like, all right, we're at the final stages. It's like we sign and we go do this or we throw the opportunity away. What were those questions like? Because I'm assuming did they, they must not have known that, like, it seems like all they knew for your Instagram is you had a boyfriend and he had a girlfriend. It seemed like you guys were dating for a long period of time, but they, did they, were they curious about like, do either of you want to get married or are one of you hoping for a proposal or to get engaged more than the other person? Like, how did those

conversations go where essentially is, as we heard on the show over and over, you were the one who issued the ultimatum. What was that like? Or was it like, Hey, you're going to go on the show. You're going to have to tell Jake, you're going to break up with them if you don't get proposed. Like, you know what I'm saying? Or were those conversations that you and Jake were having prior to these like comments showing up on your Instagram where it was just like a perfect fit? Yeah, no, my friends actually came over and watched the reunion and the episode with me and they were like, this is so weird and like feels so wrong for us to watch this because

you guys were so domesticated. Like we lived together day in, day out, had each other's vehicles, like financially things were intertwined. I cooked every day together, go to bed together, wake up every morning. Like we moved to Austin together to be together. And so when we got casted, all they see on my Instagram is this hot model couple. And I'm advertising Jake is like my model boyfriend. And we have all these quirky, fun, goofy TikToks together. And so I think they really dug in like, hey, this is a cute, cute couple. What's the issues going on between them? And so when we got on, I was like, yeah, I'm ready to get married.

And when they asked me, like, when are you getting married? I was like, yeah, I want to know the answer. What's the answer to that question? And so when they pressed and pressed on like what his reserves were, they did ask us, has Jake ever made you like feel intimidated by other women? Have you guys had any other problems with other people? And we were like, no, we've never had any issues with anyone coming between us. It's a solid relationship. And so when they started asking those questions, of course, you have some

curiosity as to, well, if we're put in that situation, what would you truly do? Or how would you truly behave? So coming closer to the interview, I think I was more excited of going into the experience to see how that outcome was. Because of course I was bragging that Jake and I were walking in and walking out together and all of my interviews, dumbfounded to say the least. But before walking in, I was like super excited. I thought we had the strongest foundation walking in. I thought we were going to come walking off, like engaged or at least together and come back into this happy home. And that isn't. So when,

when you went on the show, you, you were thinking, as I'm sure a lot of, and probably all the couples were at some point, you were like, we're going to be the couple. We're going to be,

we're going to show what, like, we're going to show, we're going to be the poster child children for love and how to fight through adversity. That was kind of how you saw it, huh? That was it. Like, I hate that they see this side of Jake on the show, but like that was my best friend. We had great times.

Like this is someone who's made me happy in the past year and a half. Yeah. And, you know, with COVID, you're really stuck together day in and day out living together. So I was walking there 100% confident like this is my man. Nothing's going to happen. We're, this is going to be easy peasy. Hardest three months of my life. Sure. I love the show. I thought the show, uh, was realistic compared to other reality TV shows, especially as it relates to couples. You don't see a ton of reality TV shows that are love-based, that focus on relationships that already exist. Usually it's about finding love,

not necessarily confirming or reinforcing the relationship. So much was made about the ages of the couples. I personally didn't have a problem with it. In fact, I thought I preferred that you had people in their mid to early 20s because as someone who was in love in my mid to early 20s who like you thought I had all the answers. I thought that was my person with 100% certainty only to find out they weren't that person. I thought it was kind of like a teachable moment for a lot, like a lot of people who are like young and in love and maybe have a doubt here or there. And it's, it's hard to know the difference between, well, you know, like every couple has problems, let's fight through it. Or

are we really compatible? I think those are, you know, that's a big question. I think a lot of young couples face with, and it's really hard to answer. I'm curious, you know, being the person who went in super confident, thinking that they were going to be a couple, and then obviously the show, they're creating a TV show, right? And as you mentioned, they're kind of eliciting these questions, like kind of peeling back layers, almost poking holes in the relationship with you and Jake. How do you see it now, right? As someone who like, what did you learn about this experience for both yourself and relationships in terms of knowing the difference between,

Hey, I'm super in love. This is my ride or die. We've built so much together. We've, you know, we bought cars together versus compatibility and someone who is, or isn't right for you for the rest of your life. I think that person that Jake was prior to the show in any relationship, you know, your significant other is supposed to be your best friend. They're supposed to have your back. You're supposed to feel safe and comfortable around them at any given moment. And going on the show that did 360, a lot of things with us being in the same room. And, you know, I go on the show. I want Jake, I want Jake, I want Jake. When you get towards the end of the show, it's like, all right, I know what

April wants outside of a relationship, in a relationship, for my personal wants and needs to be happy. If that person that you're with isn't making you happy, there's something missing. And that experience actually gave us the time to sit there, reflect with a trial partner, and then by ourselves, and then by ourselves, and then back with our original partners on what it is that you're missing or kind of self-reflect what you need. And you may want and think that you need that person, but then it really makes you open your eyes to like, all right, why is this different with this person than back in my original relationship? Yeah. At what point did you personally realize that things

might not play out the way you anticipated it them playing out when you showed up was it like because it seemed like jake it seemed like jake and and ray hit it off like real quick was that as accurate as uh as in in real life as we saw on the show, that connection? Oh, for sure. The dinner you guys see of Jake, I know he was drunk and I tried to not take it to heart, but then the next day was still the consistent, I have this with Ray. I have this with Ray. She makes me, it's just shitting on me. She makes me feel a hundred percent better, more than a bromance. And just certain words, I felt like I had to win him back again. And I was going about it all the wrong way. I felt in competition with another woman,

where it was just like, all right, if you were actually the one for me, this is our first few days apart from each other in the past year where we've lived together. And this is how you feel. And maybe we aren't meant to be together. So honestly, that was my biggest fear week one at the choice. I think that was why I was so like extremely vocal. And that was my breaking moment is because everyone was really quiet. My person was already expressing feelings for another woman. And I just wanted to remind everybody like, hey, this shit is real. Like we have to do someone and live with them for three weeks.

And we honestly may not walk out with the person we walked in with. So we honestly may not walk out with the person we walked in with. I loved when you confronted the group after the proposals that I agree seemed a little bullshit. I mean, again, I'm just a viewer. I don't know what is seen and not seeing, but I was like, what the fuck's going on? And listen, it's tough to face your fears. And it's even tougher to admit and acknowledge your fears to a group, let alone, um, an entire audience.

And, um, you did that and, uh, it's, it's scary to be vulnerable. So I thought, I thought that was really great that you did that.

What did you learn about yourself as a partner, uh, watching it back in terms of like, now that you and Jake are no longer together, you're in a serious relationship now. Congratulations. Um. What did you learn about yourself watching it back? And what did you take away from that is like, you know what, whatever happened between Jake and I, I know that I want to do this differently in my next relationship because right or wrong, whoever was to blame in this relationship, not working out, I realized that maybe I could stop doing this or I could start doing this.

What have you brought forward in this new relationship that maybe was something you learned through this experience? Yeah. In this new relationship, now when things make me feel uncomfortable, I'm quick to state it. I don't just sit in the corner because like I said in the show, but before the show started, I hate wasting my time. If something doesn't make me feel comfortable, I'll communicate it right then. And they're like, Hey, this isn't okay with me. And the difference between my current relationship, which is very similar to Colby and Hunter is the tone that he corrects me also because he's much more, he's not much more older. I know you guys gave me shit for that. He's a few years older than me and he's a little bit more mature and he's a businessman. He knows

how to communicate with people no matter, no matter who it is. If April's like here, he's very similar to the way Hunter spoke to me, the way that Colby spoke to me and like, all right, April, sit down. Don't walk out this door. Like, let's talk about it. What can I do better? What, what do you need to do? What do I need to do to make you feel better? This is how you make me feel. And he really makes me sit there and talk it out. And I've never had that in like a relationship without things escalating or me shutting down and having someone to be able to kind of do what Randall did and just like, Hey, talk to me, like, let's talk it out. So out of all of the dates that I went on with Colby, I really wish that that was displayed more on the production because Colby, every single Colby date with Colby, we were horseback riding. We were doing putt-putt that we made on the 17th floor. We did body painting. We just did so much fun stuff that I haven't felt like that in the entire year and a half of moving to a new city, not having friends, even in my relationship. So the fact that Colby brought that out to me, like, hey, I'm with someone a little

bit more my pace, that's not complaining, that can actually keep up, was my biggest thing that I took away leaving. And now I'm with someone who's like, go, go, go, that I can hardly keep up with. And I'm like, damn, was this me in the relationship? So your answer, it seems like you, what your takeaway was focusing on what you think might be a more compatible partner for you. Is that, am I hearing that? Yeah, that and I think energy, matching energy, just like the tone. I think I'm, as much as I talk, I kind of shut down and just walk away. Like when things get uncomfortable or I'm hurt or my feelings are hurt i kind of just like to be by myself and like i don't want to talk it out i don't like

confrontation with my loved ones um but now i'm with someone who knows how to handle it and make me sit there cry it out and talk it out and i feel so much better after it rather than like leave let things saturate and then talk about it two three days later because i don't want to come home so it's really nice to have that very calm communication or relationship where things don't have to be left, right, back and forth, like just not getting anywhere. Is there anything specifically that April would like change about how she goes about relationships? Because I know you're talking about like, it's nice to have this partner who does X, Y, and Z and pushes you and maybe a little bit more, you know, activity based and

like matches your energy because it just seems like you and Jake may be energy, but like, what would be something, especially when it comes down to conflict and conflict resolution, did you learn anything about like, Hey, I don't want to keep doing this. Like, this is something that I've, I'm bringing to the conflict that I don't want to do. With me. It's like, I used to be that girl. It's like tech sector. I need an answer. I need a response. I'll keep punching, punching, punching, poking holes for now. It's like, all right, I don't even give my energy if it's negative or if it's not anything that's productive or constructive criticism, I don't have time for

it. And I'll just stop the negativity right away. Let's come together when we can be calm in a calm demeanor. I think that was one thing that I had to learn to stop reciprocating people's energy and bring it back, bring it back a step and kind of, you know, work your way up. And this relationship, even last night, I got upset and I left the house. I tried to leave. His car was locked, locked me in. So he's like, you're coming back in here and we're going to talk things out. So he dropped me in the yard. But I think that was my biggest thing is that I like to just walk away, be alone, be by myself in some silence and then work it out and like, feel like that's not how things should work. You should just be able to leave the house or walk away from an argument. And I'm learning, I promise. And so yesterday I and like, feel like that's not how things should work. You should just be able to leave the house or walk away from an argument.

And I'm learning, I promise. And so yesterday I was like, I just need to go boxing. He's like, you're not going boxing. I was like, I just need to throw some punches.

Let this, let this out, feel better. Come back. Let's talk. He's like, no, we're going to talk right now.

So I am working on. It is. It is okay to, for you to like step away. In according according to my therapist it's a a rather smart thing too yeah i i i hope your current boyfriend lets you you know walk away he knows how we've been traveling non-stop and i think with the production he he knows how overwhelming it's been for me personally like i'm getting messages really great stories by the way but then i'm also getting hate comments hate messages and i know i'm the person to sit there and read everything he's like you can't do that you're

gonna drive yourself crazy so i think him being in my corner being able to say like sit down let's talk about it reset it's not the end of the world has been great. Yeah. Stop reading comments, April. Come on. Take it easy on yourself. I read something that Jake said he wants nothing to do with you anymore. And listen, like you guys aren't together anymore. So like there's no real reason you guys should talk, but it does seem like from where we sit, there seems to be a lot of still anger and animosity between, at least from Jake's point of view. You seem like someone who at least comes across as someone who doesn't hold grudges. You're obviously like kind of your big bubbly personality.

You seem to let go. But it doesn't seem like Jake has let go in terms of like just as late as last week. I saw an interview or whatever, a clip of him saying i want nothing to do with her anymore like what where do you guys stand now if if at all and like where does that hurt you to hear or what is your point of view from from those comments between the you know how things ended with you and jake it does and i'm not even going to go into detail but i do want to say that i mean we'd love for you to go into detail he doesn't want anything he doesn't want anything to do with me he texts me 30 minutes after the reunion aired uh i'm not gonna say i'm not gonna say the details and i

don't want to throw him under the bus because at one point this was my best friend i love him i respect jake i think he just doesn't go about things a certain way, but he reached out to me a month ago in a time of need. I was fucking there. So you don't want anything to do with me, but when it's convenient for you and you need someone at your side, cause you don't have anybody I've told him, I will always be there for you. No matter what, call me if you're in a fucking emergency, I'm 10 minutes away from you. Like no bad blood shit hit the fan things happen, but I'm mature enough to recognize like things happen for the better I think they happen for the better of him as well um for both of us and I said at the end of the day I've spent a year and a half of my life with you and I've traveled with you and

you've given me you know some of the most amazing memories I'm not gonna sit here and shit on you and neglect that and I just don't understand it's veryful to say like, I cried over you for three months for you to say that I did it for fame. I already had 55,000 followers and I was modeling and running my own network, doing my own thing before you came into my life. I left my hometown with you to have a life with you. We had talked about marriage prior to the show.

So to go on the show, it's like, you can sit here and say that I did it for fame and that you had an engagement plan. Then why the fuck was was it so hard why was it so hard for you to not pay attention to me and stray away as soon as another woman came into the picture yeah i don't want to sit on him i don't want to shit on him i love him i think he's amazing person we just realize we have differences it's not shitting on him april we're just here to hear your truth that's all no but i'm close to it so that's why i'm gonna i want you to it's a safe place april you just be yourself you know just let just let it all out i think it's a little uh disingenuous of jake um to play the um i didn't want to do this. She made me do this. Imply that you did it for fame or intention.

He's an adult man who, to your point, sat down with whatever producers and whatever lawyers or not lawyers, if you decided to bring in a lawyer, but signed a contract, showed up. Well, let me ask you this. You're're gonna get me started because i really do feel for him and i do feel that guilt of like oh i i did this to him i dragged us on this relationship like i'm the cause of all of this and i sit there and i feel really bad for myself i feel bad for him our relationship but then i have to go back to like all right well how the hell were you feeling in the first week of like speed dating? And how did he make you feel that had nothing to do with me?

Yeah. So kind of hard to balance it out. I think he's a great person, at least in the year and a half of our relationship prior to the show. The show made me think different. Of course. Yes. But you try to not feel guilty. Like things happen.

It's over with. You just have to let it go and be in the present and move forward. Yeah. And so, because like when you guys signed up for the show, at any point, did you threaten to break up with him if he didn't go on? No. And if you recall, I can call my producer right now. And Johnny Trems will tell you that the day before, one of the days I called him and I

said, Johnny, we're backing out. Jake doesn't want to do this. We're just, I have text messages saying we're not doing it. And he, the producer called back, put a, put, he put himself on speaker. Jake and I were there and he just persuaded us. Like you guys are a really great couple. I think if you guys promise to yourselves that you guys are as strong as you are, and you really love April and April really loves you, Jake, there shouldn't be an issue. So at that point, you know, we have a 30 page contract that we signed. I didn't sign yours for you, Jake. You signed it on your behalf. You're a big boy. I signed mine on my behalf. I didn't drag you. You got in the same, the same limo as I did when we got there. I didn't put the mics on you. So

it's just like those little things. I'm like, okay, you're right. I dragged you. I threw your 180 pound self on my, on my 90 pound back and took you to the ultimate. Well, yeah, cause he's, it seems like he's painting a picture of, of you forced him to do it and essentially told him that if you weren't going to do this show that you would leave him and quite literally made him do it where it sounds like at least your truth is and what we're hearing is it was your idea you maybe thought that you you may have wanted it more than him but the end of the day you both signed a contract you both showed up together and you both were persuaded to go on and you probably both had uh ideas of the excitement of going on TV and what all the

things that come with that. But it doesn't sound like in any way that you force him or make him do it. And of course, once you get there, I can feel the anger that he had against me for like, all right, we're already here. This is awkward as shit. He's uncomfortable. I could feel the resentment from him right away because everyone was meeting like offset. I was already dating and in my trial marriage with Colby and I'd go downstairs. Colby would secretly meet up with Madeline and their, their two dogs. And then Shanique and Randall just happened to be there at the same time. And then even Ray who's when trial marriage with Jake was downstairs and she was with they, and it was just just like I was the only one by myself. Jake didn't want anything to do with me even on the show.

So so yeah, Jake, Jake sounds like really he like he really showed up. where like all like the way you're describing it all the other couples did what you and jake could have done and what you know your producer suggested that you could have done is you you could have still prioritized your relationship but at that point it seemed like what why why ever like it's just not do you think jake blames it's like j Jake's excuse for acting the way he did in terms of, you know, being, you know, staying away from you or focusing on Ray rather than focusing on your relationship. Do you think he justifies it by saying it's all your fault? Like, is that how he I have grown and matured so much from this experience and I'm so thankful for it. I just wish that was the outcome for everybody. Cause that was the whole purpose of it. And I think even being here a year later, and I've been there for you in a time of need, we were still friends post the show. We've been through so much shit between each other. I still have, I had, I still had respect for you. I was still there for you. And then for you to

shit on me and still blame me for the things that you did like i had to go to the reunion sit in my room by myself and watch all the shit that he said behind my back in his interviews about me about ray by myself like i was it took me two hours to get through each episode because i was pausing crying like can you believe he said this like even though it happened a year later it was still fucking hurtful and i didn't know any of that was going on. If I would have known that before the show, I promise you, I probably would have cried less over him if I knew the things that he was saying. Yeah. Cause I don't remember. Did you, did, did April talk? Yeah. You didn't seem to talk much shit about Jake in your, in your interview. I was so in love. I was so just dumbfounded and

just, yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. I was thinking in love I was so just dumbfounded and just yeah I don't know what I was thinking I was thinking Jake and I were gonna walk out I was head over heels about this man prior to the show even without the show being present and on the show I was just completely bragging about him how I wanted him he wasn't answering my phone calls I probably sent like 2,000 text messages wasn't even sending me a response he's like you wanted me to be in this experience production said don't interact with your relationships so i'm not doing that you wanted me to go through this experience so i'm going to go through it and it's like well everyone else is meeting up and talking because they care about each other and then here i am texting jake's

mom talk to your son please because he's not listening i mean he's not texting me back and i'm freaking out yeah you know at the proposals you know you and jake broke up and then uh jake had this uh like anywhere in the world we can go and then ray was all down my question to you is why don't you think jake and ray are together do you think it's mutual or do you think it had more to do with ray and the ray and zay drama like if jake could be with ray do you think he would be but he was rejected by ray like what's your what's your read if you could give me i know it's a little personal but if you can give me a uh your point of view of why jake and ray might not have worked out i'd love love to hear it. I'm going to word this in the most honest way. That's what we want. We just want honest April. That's what we want. I'm going to

be honest with you. I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to be respectful about it too. But I call bullshit in the dating. I was like, she matches with you on every level, more than a bromance. I'm like, what are you trying to say here? Like, I think it was like the infatuation side of things and listening to him talk about this woman and say hey gorgeous like the certain things he would say or like i read in his phone the way that he was like talking to her sneaking out while we were back together with her and his mom he was sneaking out while you guys were back together i think it was the night before my birthday when i went through his phone he came came back home drunk. Wait, you had a birthday during filming? Yeah.

Yeah. The birthday where I found this video. Oh, God. That's nuts. So that was the night before my actual birthday is when I went through his phone. So I had found what I went through, got up really early. I think I even left that night because I was so pissed off. But he came home drunk.

And the first thing he says first of all it was the night before my birthday we got in a fight on um during filming and I'm like I go to bed I'm like I don't want to talk to you he's like I have something planned for your birthday like you ruined it and I went to bed crying and I see him get dressed up and he just left me didn't try talking he's like well you don't want to be around me I'm like usually you're like when you see your person isn't like emotional and they're upset you go and you freaking comfort them you don't just leave and walk out he gets home like two o'clock in the morning and I wake up and he's blasting music hip-hop music on his phone and just stumbling

and he goes I had such an amazing amazing time. I had such amazing time. And so me, I'm like, what the fuck do you mean? You had an amazing time with her. It's two o'clock in the morning. I already had my visions or whatever, but he fell asleep. He threw his phone across the bed. It was already open. It was already right there. Unlock still blasting hip hop music. He's knocked out. And I'm like, well, I want to know why you had such an amazing time at this time of night. I found the twerking videos from like past times that they were going out. It wasn't until post-show that I like read everything. And he'd actually been meeting up with Ray and her mom and texting, don't tell Zay where you're at.

But that was like, all right, this is like beyond disrespectful. And I had already known at that point, mentally checked checked out thanks for sharing that a lot i can't he came those little balls to come home and be like i had more fun with another woman than you he was so drunk and i woke up the next day you'll see me film i said do you remember you came home drunk last night you were talking he's like no and i've asked him he was there was so much alcohol involved. I'm a allergic. So half the 90% of the time I was drinking juice and I'm sober while everyone else is just blah, blah, blah. It was so not fun for me. And I asked Jake post-show during the show, is there anything disrespectful that you said that I need to be aware about that you need, you can tell me now before I have to

watch it and it hurts my heart again. So it was basically like, did you talk some shit about me at any point? And he multiple times I i said what did you say that i need to be aware about is there anything you said that i need to know right now tell me and he couldn't fucking remember because he was so drunk he's like honestly i can't think of anything i don't know and then you watch it and you're like you don't remember that you said a through z he wasn't drunk the whole time he talked some shit sober yeah for sure i don't know i've been driving even high i was i don't know whatever it was um it comes to a point where you can't blame other like you need to take accountability hey i fucked up i said some hurtful shit

i'm sorry but there was never a single sorry and that's where i'm upset so here we are a year later and you still can't let it go it's still my fault can you walk us through like help us understand there was a lot of confusion watching it, I think as viewers, not just you and Jake, but like all the couples, because there was a lot of like people talking about, like Colby, for example, like there's random, there's some other random girl.

And I think there might've been some guy Jake accused you of talking to. It was kind of confusing because it seemed like there was stuff going on while you guys were filming that wasn't captured by the show, but was still part of the storyline. Can you shed some light on those other messy or behind-the-scenes situations that were going on? Yeah, and I actually wish this was filmed.

I honestly completely clueless when it came to colby with another woman but i figured there was something because there was times i'd come home or we left the club separately and like i'd come home first and colby had left first but like i come home first and so i was just like hey where are you blah blah blah i didn't know what was going on i I was completely clueless. I felt cheated. And my current boyfriend with Jake, I was so distraught. I just met Colby's family. His newborn niece was there with my fertility problems. It was so, it was the hardest thing was that day. And they didn't even show that. Cause I was like crying in the woods, just having a newborn baby in front of me and then try to talk. And I just left fertility appointment. It was like the hardest date that I did. And Colby was like, let's go

out with your girlfriend. Let's have some fun. Forget the rain, Jake thing. Cause Jake was still not texting me. And I went to the club and this nice gentleman just, it was not creepy at all. He walks up to me, approaches me in the club, starts massaging my neck. He's like, you look like you had a long day. He's like, I I just want to say like you you're like the most beautiful person I've seen what is your ethnicity and he's like we can't figure it out and then we just started chatting I was like I just moved here he's like I just moved here and I'm like no way he's like do you have a boyfriend I was like yeah I got a boyfriend and a trial boyfriend like I got a lot on my plate right now but that guy actually did pursue me we exchanged contacts which is the upsetting thing is I showed Madeline a photo of me that

I took with the guy when I met him. There was nothing going on that night. I didn't go home with him that night. I took pictures with him and he's dancing with my friends. His friends were dancing with them. I showed Madeline a photo and that's where things get messy. She goes and relays it to Jake saying, I showed her multiple photos of men. And Jake's like, you're sharing your blah, blah, blah with all these guys.

Like it was literally one guy that I talked to for like 20 minutes. I gave him my Instagram. I didn't even give him my cell phone. And at that point, it's just like, if you were that mad about this far that I gave someone my social media, when you and Ray were making out, kissing,

being disrespectful to me not paying attention to me you have no right no right at all do you think you did that because of what was going on between jake and ray even without that even without that this guy was so respectful it was non-creepy and i at the time that the way that he pursued me and said like such nice things to me and it wasn't it wasn't flirtatious or just like well let me ask you this though like would you what would how would well how would you have handled that situation had you and Jake not gone on the ultimatum oh no for sure I'd be like I have a boyfriend so yeah I think that's where people get confused because like what were the comp not even just you and Jake because it seems like

it seems like a lot of the couples or maybe all the couples decided not only am i going through this show where i have this trial partner but i'm essentially like we're broken up yeah like i have a hall pass yeah it seemed like this universal hall pass not only with people on the show but if i if some guy walks up to me and started rubbing my shoulders and I don't find it creepy uh I guess I can give him my social media like it it seemed like a I have followers anyways like anywhere ago I'm like hey what's up girl I like your blog follow me on Instagram I have no friends in Austin so follow like that's just how April is like I go I socialize with everybody so that

was honestly like uncommon I would have done it to anybody there that I've made friends with because I don't have friends here in Austin hometown is LA for me but aside from that I can understand where Colby's coming from because Colby and I had such a like platonic brotherly like sisterly like just strong friendship and playful fun relationship that I value so much we didn't do anything in three weeks we shared a bed we never touched each other, never kissed, never did anything until the very last night. And then after that,

we were even like, oh shit, this is awkward. So yeah, we did go in person and like talk to people outside of the experiment because outside of this, you have Madeline and Randall, like really hitting it off,

you know, Ray and Jake hitting it off. They had both kissed at this point. We were like, fuck it. Like, let's just go out and have a good time. What did you guys do?

Did you guys just kiss in the last night? you guys do more than that yeah no we did not make out colby and i kissed the last time and he had this whole speech like hey we've had a really great time in these three weeks i don't know why but we haven't explored like the physical side of things together so i just wanna and then just went for it and after that we were like, yep, no, that's not going to happen again. Okay. What is your take? Because you're kind of connected to it indirectly. Lately, there's been a lot of social media drama going on between Ray and Zay. And someone who was part of this drama as it relates to like, you know, Ray and Jake and you were with Jake.

Like, what is your, how do you see this, this drama going on between Ray and Zay? Because like, I saw this thing on TikTok. Ray posted this collage of her, and it was like this like love collage of the two of them with a comment about like, you might be lying, you know, you can lie about me, but I'm going to. Like remember the good things.

Which was kind of bizarre like i guess i mean i'm glad she is able to show appreciation for a love that she used to have but it's like i'm gonna try to talk shit about you but also romanticize the shit out of our relationship yeah and i'm curious about your take who yeah who yeah you you kind of fell you were affected by ray and how she handled her business and you certainly got to know zay a little bit what was your take on that situation so my take on that is i get where zay's coming from because him and i were on the same boat like our partners hit it off right away i totally get where the fear fearfulness of him was coming like oh shit they might actually walk off together but then in another token i had jake send me i made a tiktok

of jake in the middle of filming and like was like hey guys we're broken up and i was like you have to take that down because the show's not airing for another year and i did like a very similar collage something like hey i appreciate all of our memories i was like respect you for who you were to me in the past in in the past and deleted it. And then Jake had sent me a very similar collage. It's like, we all did these TikTok collages. He sent me one was like,

Hey, you're not a part of my life now, but I want to thank you for, but, and it was like a cringy, awkward collage. He sent me a like, but I want to thank you.

And I was just like, he didn't even post it. He sent it to me. He like made a TikTok and then sent it to me but didn't post it so wait did jake and ray like did they do this together and this was a year ago so i got jake's like post show like we had already understood like all right this isn't going anywhere but so i get where ray is coming from too because it's hard to go through this camera roll and see like who you were prior to the show and then at some chunk of the show it's like

production production shit changes real quick um so i totally get it and i get it for her too i'm like who you were prior to the show. And then at some chunk of the show, it's like production, production, shit changes real quick. So I totally get it. And I get it for her too. I am in a relationship now. So in respect for my current boyfriends, I literally love him, adore him. There's times where I've been like,

I want to post a relationship TikTok to show people that Jake was literally the kindest, like nicest human being to me prior to the show so they can see that other side of him. And I'm glad i did it because then i got that nasty text message during the reunion i spent four hours fucking crying that night and i was like you don't deserve shit so what jake sent you after the reunion was not nice it wasn't it was not nice it was more like blaming you again like

you did this like i hope you enjoy your fam. Thanks for destroying my fucking life. My boyfriend was out of town and I just was like in the bedroom, in the corner, crying by myself because it does hurt. And you do feel that guilt. And when you remind yourself of it, I do feel guilty because I know that there's that side of him that people don't see. And my boyfriend ended up flying a day early to come home to me. Cause he's like, you need to tune that shit out, block him on social media, block him on messages. He's trying to make you feel bad it was a year ago you're over it you're with me now like move the hell on don't even respond and so he's right i i screenshotted it i just deleted the chat i blocked him and i was just like all right wipe your tears like move on yeah i guess it's it's really disappointing to see like hear how hear how Jake has handled that situation. For me, the worst moment for Jake, for me as a viewer, was the first day you guys were back together after he spent three weeks with Zay.

And it was so obvious because he seemed, again, I don't know what's edited or not, but he sounded incredibly mean to you and cruel. mean to you and and cruel and it seems solely based off the idea that he may or may not have felt guilty about his feelings for ray and instead of just like being honest about it or showing empathy about how it might hurt you he decided to play the victim and make you feel bad about even being there when these were all his choices of how he handled himself in this environment and on the show and it seemed like that kind of mentality is still going on with jake where it doesn't seem like he sees any he doesn't see them see the need for any accountability about his choices on his end it just seems uh as far as he's concerned your fault yeah so there was a lot of gaslighting and i was i was honestly you could

see the smile on my face i was like ready i was like moving back into my man like i get to have one on one time with him now like kind of show him what colby has pushed me to like learn in this relationship that i need in this one and also be a better person for Jake and apply it to this. And right off the bat, it was freaking nostrils flaring, like chest puffs out at me and just talking with a very harsh demeanor and like body language prior to even getting back together. The body language just said like, Hey, I don't want anything to do with you. And that's why I just walk away. I'm like, if you're going to get this upset of how Madeline's talking to me or telling you things and then relaying it to me that way, and you already believe it without, hey, can you tell me what happened? Let's sit down. I already was like, I don't want to be arguing with this person. Bye. I'm going to sleep. I slept on the couch.

And I go, this is going to be the longest three weeks of my life. And fuck yeah, it was. With the conversations between you women, when you guys got together, which was always kind of bizarre in between dating each other's partners, did you guys talk about together and agree what would be like cool or not cool? Or was it just kind of like, I guess whatever happens happens. Like, how did you guys approach that? Because it was really kind of wild to see you all talk about what was going on with each other's partners. And I'm just curious if there were kind of behind the scenes boundaries that you guys all set. So yeah, behind in the interview, they asked us this and it was like, all right, nothing like beyond like kissing, explore what you need to explore. But we knew what the boundary was. But I think the biggest thing for me was like, I didn't find any harm in like,

I wasn't getting that experience with Colby. So yeah, I kind of pursued and connected with someone off the show. But my biggest thing was when he came home that night his issue was that i was exchanging my information with someone off the show whereas it would be fine if i was with colby do whatever you want with colby but you can't do with someone off the show because they're not part of this experience and i'm like semantics yeah so he was saying that because he on the show it would have been okay he didn't think you had uh he didn't think he wasn't worried about kobe that's why he was fine yeah and so my biggest thing was like well put in put yourself in my shoes what if kobe and i had that relationship boom right off the bat and publicly display like

our googly eyes and stuff in front of you just in the first week of speed dating i'm sure the rules would be reversed and you'd be shitting your pants also yeah well that's the thing it's just like it seems so hard to see this kind of compassionate empathic empathetic side of jake because what we saw was just a very defensive hypocritical side of jake where it's like yeah he seemed like you know after you guys would fight and after you guys would say i mean things to one another he'd be like no i do love you and i was you know you want to see that in the moment or you want to see that prior to a fight where it was always kind of a reaction that was kind of a a bummer a bummer to see and just even like the i love you the intimate moments

i mean my dad is like military operator. Like we read body language since I was seven and like sitting there with Jake, even like the, I love you is you're like talking to me, like his eyes would be looking across or like rolling his eyes at me. And I wouldn't say anything. Cause I already look stupid on the show, but just to sit there and already feel that he's checked out and not disconnected from me. I already felt like I was wasting my time and my energy with him. And I was still trying like, pay attention to me, like, just tell me you love me. And it was hard. It was hard to just not have someone's full attention when we went back to our original partners. Before we wrap up April, any, any

final thoughts about, uh, your experience on the show or what you want your audience to know, anything that you want to get off your chest? Yeah. I have a lot of my audience and viewers DMing me, telling me, hey girl, thanks to you, I gave my man an old tomato last night. I'm like, oh God. They were like, but she said, I've been together with my husband or my husband, my boyfriend for six years. I wanted to be engaged at three. He's explained that this is not what he wants. And he's just been lying the whole time. I decided to walk away. It's the hardest thing I've had to do. This is what I'm going through. And I'm ready for this journey on finding myself and what makes me happy. And I'm like, you go girl. Like I'm reading all the DMs and like really positive stories. I

was really surprised with the feedback from the ultimatum and how many people can relate to it with their current relationships, past relationship. And the fact that people can watch us and put themselves in their shoes too, it feels really good to have that connect with the audience. So like, Hey, the shit was hard. But other than that, I wish Jake the best. I have no bad blood between any of the cast members. I love everybody like a family. Jake, you don't want anything to do with me. I don't want anything to do with you. I wish you nothing but the best. Oh, I do have one more question. Because obviously we saw the side of Jake. You learned about Jake. But when we talk about relationships on this show, I'm a big believer that the signs are always there, right? But sometimes we look the other way. Sometimes, you know,

we can be afraid of the truth because we're afraid of what that truth means about the relationship. You are someone who obviously, you know, really puts their heart and soul in everything they do. And it seems like you really put your heart and soul into this relationship. And that can be very scary for a lot of people, especially when they see a bit of, you know, cracks in the relationship, so to speak. Did this experience teach you anything about your willingness to peel back layers in terms of problems in the relationship as it relates to, you know, dealing with relationship? Like, do you see yourself issuing an ultimatum with your current partner? Let's say two years go by, you don't

like get engaged. Do you think it's the ultimatum that really helped it? Or do you think, are you going to be more inclined to invest in fixing these minor problems as opposed to just saying, oh, like, whatever, like we still love each other. Cause I feel like that's what a lot of couples do. They say, oh, well, you know, problems, whatever. They're not a big deal, but we're in love, but there really seems to be, you know, issues going on. If you are willing to look at them, like, do you see yourself handling your current relationship different in the future as problems inevitably come up? Of course. And I think to all my Tauruses out there, I have my Taurus cup here and it says

stubborn, affectionate, reliable. And I think that's 100% true. We have so much love to give, but we're also stubborn and willing to walk away if we feel uncomfortable or things kind of press us. And I think in my current relationship, I'm way more prone to sit back and say, this hurt my feelings instead of getting upset and keeping it bottled in. I'm able to say, Hey, this makes me feel uncomfortable. Sit down and talk about it. And as hard as it is for me to sometimes say, sorry, I do sit there. I'm like, we apologize. And we move forward. So there's so much that I learned from Colby because you have to understand Colby gave his woman the ultimate. He was the one guy that was like pursuing his woman. And I'm like, holy shit, I want that. And I told Madeline, you should be glad this man's

giving you an ultimatum because I want a guy to like pursue me the way he used nonstop. Madeline, Madeline, Madeline talking about this girl the whole time I was living with him. Week one where Jake was ignoring me. So that was like, man, I want my man to be just as crazy as me as Colby. So in the three weeks of living with Colby and all the stuff you guys didn't see, the ultimatum truly made me like, all right, I'm putting my bar a little bit higher. Like I know what makes me happy and I'm not going to settle for less or any kind of like disrespect and not have that mindset that like, oh, I don't want to throw two years away.

I'm scared to start over. Like that's bullshit. If it's not making you happy, then that two years, like just be glad it wasn't 12. Right. And so it gave me a whole new positive outlook. Wonderful. Well, great to hear that.

I love that you see it that way now. April, I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing all this. It's been, you're a very giving guest. I appreciate it. And all the best to you in your future and your new relationship. And we really appreciate your time.

Of course. Thanks, guys. Well, thanks for listening, guys. Thank you to Elizabeth Wessmeister of Variety Magazine. Thank you to April Marie from The Ultimatum. Can't thank you enough. Make sure to tune in tomorrow, Going Deeper, for Madeline and Colby. Next week, Tuesday, Kale Lowry and hopefully Clayton Eckhart will be joining us.

Kale will be our guest. And I think Clayton's going to zoom in and we're going to catch up with Clayton. And then on Wednesday, we have Josh Peck to maybe wrap up his podcast tour. The man's done every podcast out there. But there's only one called Going Deeper. There's only one called Going Deeper.

We're, we'll see if we can get something fresh from, from Josh. Maybe, he's literally done every podcast.

Anyways, you won't want to miss it. I promise you, we will, we're going to talk about a lot of stuff. So we'll, we'll get Josh's take

on all the relevant pop culture things going on. Find out something. We're going to make him tell us something new. Juicy. We're going to get something juicy and new out of him. We're going to dare him. We're going to suggest to Josh

that you've done so many podcasts that you can't possibly have anything new or press-worthy to say. Please prove us wrong. Is that okay? Do I have an incredible audacity? I think it sounds fun. I think it depends on the tone.

Anyways, tune in. If for nothing else, tune in to see me dare Josh to suggest that he has nothing new to say. We're big fans of Josh Peck. Anyway, we can't wait to have him on. And also, don't forget to go back and check out our Ask Nick episodes on Monday. Send your questions to asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K. If you are in relationships, situationships, if you feel helpless with your situationships, if you feel helpless

with your love life, if you're having a problem of any kind, I promise you if you listen to Ask Nick, you're going to feel a little bit more empowered, a little better

about your choices, and just, I think, a little bit more optimistic about your future. Is that safe to say? Totally. Is that too much? I feel like it's like

a very emotionally mature brunch conversation. Yeah, there you go. Thank you, Amanda. That's on Monday. Go back and listen, subscribe, review, all that fun stuff. We'll see you tomorrow. Peace.