The Viall Files - E413 Amber & Johnny in Court and Selling Sunset with Kail Lowry

Episode Date: April 26, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelor Gossip Edition! Today we are joined by Podcaster and Reality Television Star, Kail Lowry. On this episode, we dive into our reactions to Mike Tyson's brutal interaction with a taunting “fan” and discuss why celebrities decide to fly commercial air. We then breakdown the Amber and Johnny situation as everything continues to come to light as the trial has gone on. We dive into Amber allegedly keeping Johnny away from his medicine for withdrawals, admitting to physical violence on tape, and how it can be hard to leave these situations. We then ask Kail about her recent defamation lawsuit and get her insight into why the case is happening in Virginia, how each state treats these types of cases completely differently, and how the burden of proof can be extremely difficult to overcome. We then catch up on all things Selling Sunset and question if they actually sell houses once the cameras stop filming.  “Can you respond to crazy with a little crazy of your own?”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Rothy’s: Get $20 off your first purchase today at http:/www.rothys.com/VIALL Canva: Go to http://www.Canva.me/Viall to get your FREE 45-day extended trial.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @kaillowry If you are experiencing domestic violence, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233, or go to thehotline.org. All calls are toll-free and confidential. The hotline is available 24/7 in more than 170 languages. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the vile files i think are we calling it freestyle edition until further notice that's, right? Because it's kind of like, well, Kale Lowry, our guest. These aren't always weird because we had such a tight turnaround that often we do our intros before or after our guests, but with our Tuesday episodes, our guests are part of our intros. Okay, understood. And so it's kind of like, because we have to pump it out.

We got to get it out. Anyway, we have Kayle Lowry with us today. We need to get in the housekeeping notes because we've had some changes in the scheduling this week. Clayton and Susie won't be on today's episode. They'll be on tomorrow's episode. Okay. Because Josh Peck won't be on tomorrow's episode because he apparently is filming

a Christopher Nolan movie and had to do pickups today. So, that's a good enough excuse to cancel. I mean, he told us on Friday,

I don't know, I might have to do some pickups. But apparently, Josh Peck's in a Christopher Nolan movie. That's exciting. Congrats to him.

Now we have new things to talk about with him after his podcast tour. We playfully joked that he has this really good book out and he's done a lot of podcasts and we try to get exclusives on this show. But Josh Peck's a big deal. We love him. We're a fan.

And then we kind of joked that we're going to somehow try to get him to say something he hasn't done, hasn't said. Right. That's the... Because he't done, hasn't said. Right. That's the, cause he's done a lot of podcasts. But we need him to say something new on your podcast. We want, that's what we hope for.

Of course. Anyway, he's not going to be on tomorrow's episode. It will be Clayton and Susie and my friends, Matt King and his girlfriend, Patricia, to do a mediation call about what's crossing the line, like expressing, saying, I love you,

or I'm in love with you when like complimenting someone, like I love like their art or I love what they do. But like in the relationship, does that like, oh, I'm in love with what you do, or I love you. Or when it's a person of the opposite sex, it causes some rifts in a relationship. So anyways, we'll be talking with Matt King and Patricia about that. That's a mediation call.

So Clayton, Susie, Patricia, Matt, all tomorrow. Now let's get to today's episode. We're going to talk a little, well, we'll probably talk a lot of Johnny Depp, Amber Heard trial. We'll get into some Selling Sunset, which I personally haven't watched yet, but Kale and Ali stands of the show. I just haven't had a chance yet.

Are we talking about Mike Tyson? Oh, yeah. We can. Okay. I just thought that was a baby. I'm crazy. Yeah. No.

No, yeah. That also happened. A lot of violence in the news. I literally found out last night. Yeah. I was like, oh, that happened a few days ago. I had no idea. I live under a rock. Let's just start there. Oh, okay. Totally. I was like, oh, that happened a few days ago. I had no idea. I live under a rock.

Let's just start there. Oh, okay. Mike Tyson was on a flight. Flying coach. No, he was flying first class. He was flying commercial airline. Commercial. Commercial.

Do we think that there's a level of celebrity that we, I think, all assume they fly private? I mean, it's Mike Tyson. I definitely thought he was flying private. I mean, it's Mike Tyson. I definitely thought he was flying private. I mean, at some point, he definitely was. Right. And I don't know Mike Tyson's financial, like, situation, but it's been rather, I think it's common knowledge that at least in the past, he's been,

he's bought a lot of shit. Okay. Like, tigers, and, like, he's, he went through a lot of money at one point. Like I know like he famously like loves to feed pigeons. And so like I remember something a few years ago where he would, no, yeah. He's like Spencer Pratt with the hummingbirds. And he would like spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on like food for pigeons.

So like he has, he spends. So then that would make sense for why he's playing commercial. I think there's a lot of people. Because he spends it all on the pigeons. So like he has, he spends. So then that would make sense for why he's playing commercial. I think there's a lot of people. Because he spends it all on the pigeons. Right. And tigers and stuff.

I mean, if they're not strong enough, he can't fly with them. So he has to find a different way. On the Kardashians episode, I think one or two, Kim talked about how Kanye flew commercial

to support her SNL appearance. But you know what? That's like a Kanye move. Like, I feel like that would, that doesn't surprise me. Yeah. Because you just never know what to expect with Kanye.

That's like, I did Uber Pools when I was the Bachelor. That's fun. Yeah. How did that go? Fun. I love an Uber Pool.

The camaraderie is unparalleled. Well. It's like carpool with strangers. I learned about, this was before, it was like six years ago. And I had, before I was The Bachelor, I was living in L.A. And money was tighter than it is for me now. Right.

And I had no car. And I was just like getting around L.A. via Ubers. That adds up. And I had this friend of mine, a woman, who in her like mid-20s, and she was like, you should Uber pool. And I was like, you Uber pool? It was just, it surprised me that she Uber pooled. And I thought to myself, if you can uber pool, then I can uber pool. It builds character. It does.

And also, it was at a time where people hadn't really discovered uber pool. So 75% of the time, you're still by yourself and paying 25% of the cost. It was just a no brainer. And what I would do is I would always sit shotgun. So I would just, if it was an Uber pool, I would get in, sit shotgun. I'd put headphones on. They wouldn't talk to you. They wouldn't talk to you. And most of the time, no one had any idea. That you were in the car.

In the car. That's always such a power move, getting in an Uber and sitting in the front seat. Oh my God, the balls. Did they ever say anything to you? No. It was an Uber pool. At some point, someone's getting in the front. Not if it's just the two of you.

Right. No, but I didn't know and so like but after i got done filming i would still uber pool and and this was like when i was i was getting noticed a lot you were hot shit no i mean anyway um i do think we i think we the point of all this i I think celebrities fly a commercial far more than we... Like I would assume, I guess. It's really expensive to fly. I mean, I saw Jennifer Garner. I've seen a lot of big celebrities on planes. Prince Harry used to fly commercial and they would work out a thing.

It would just be him and a protection officer in plane clothes. And they'd figure out a way for him to be the last one on and the first one off. So like no one would notice him, but he would just sit in the front row and then like yeet off the plane. I mean, I feel like that makes sense. But when you think of like Mike Tyson and then what happened, you just, the first thing I thought was why is he flying commercial? Because it costs a lot of money. Because he fed the pigeons.

Because he fed too many pigeons. I also think that it's like people's relationship with money gets cemented so early on so no matter how much money you make even though it might like change and morph there's still that like kind of fundamental like especially like i don't know anybody's background but like in general like i feel like the money it takes to fly private is probably a really hard pill to swallow no matter what yeah and so it's like and i think that's the so like the thing that i've learned so much about like from like being in la and like having friends who work for celebrities

is that it's like they still want to save money totally like they still want to be saving money like in the celebrity world like especially actors it's you can get fired from any job but there's just less security in this space of like you just never know where your next paycheck's coming from, so to speak. Yeah. So if you have like extravagant spending habits, this is all to say flying private is really fucking expensive. And, you know, people always talk about like the first time you fly first class. It ruins everything. It ruins everything about flying.

It can get really expensive. Imagine getting used to that. But anyways, Mike Tyson's flying commercial. And someone on the flight was inebriated, it seemed like, excessively. Extremely intoxicated. And just. How do you get that drunk on a plane? I don't know.

Are you kidding? Because the flight here, the guy next to me. A ton of drinks? Super nice. All he was drinking was Jack Daniels. The entire six hours. They don't come through enough time. Oh no, she did. And she even sent him two shots

to go. Oh, hell yeah. This is also coming from Allie who I have seen pour liquor into like shampoo TSA regulation size bottles to take them through. Yes, and it's very Yes. That's really creative. Here's the process. Here's the process. I'm not recommending it because it's not technically okay. But if you wanted to, if you wanted to, you can get those little TSA size bottles,

right? You get two of them because whatever, you're flying. You have two different ones and I put a tequila is a little too risky because it smells. I put vodka in both of them and I add a little bit of lime juice to ones. They look like different ones and I label them like makeup remover and something else. And I add a little bit of baking soda to neutralize like any odor. And then it also adds a little nice fizzy. Then I put it in a zip lock bag. You put baking soda in your alcohol? Yeah. You can't taste it, but it helps you. Can you drink baking soda? Yeah. So anyways, you put it in a zip lock bag. Do you like to drink that much? Or is this more like a budget thing?

It's a budget thing. I'm not paying you enough. It's a budget. I think you're also, you're a problem solver. I'm a problem solver. So you put it in a Ziploc bag with like toothbrush and cotton pads because it's makeup remover. And then you go through TSA. And then you go to a store in the airport and you buy like a vitamin water.

And then you go to the bathroom and you pour some of the vitamin water out. You put the alcohol in. You shake it up and you take it on the plane. Meanwhile, your dog's in a carrier watching you do it and she's like, fuck it, we're doing it again, mom. And you're being on the dog beat pad.

I love this. Good for you. But also like people, other people who don't smuggle in alcohol. I have never done this before. It's just an idea. It's a theory.

On a layover, you can get drunk on a chili's bar you know yeah a chili's two have you guys ever seen those they're like mini chili's yeah at this o'hare the bars are always packed yeah yeah um i don't know i kind of like your idea people will drink it oh 100 oh at airport no yeah 8 a.m yeah 6 a.m 5 a.m yeah it's like you know how there's like maritime law? I feel like we need a word for like airport law because people are like the most like unfiltered like animalistic version of themselves.

Oh, yeah. Like there are no rules. Vacation mode. People are stressed. I remember like having an early flight. It was like a five, like we were there at the time of day where most of like even the like the dunking donuts wasn't open yet. You know, it was that early and people were like going to the bar trying to order Bloody

Mary's and they're like, we don't start serving alcohol till 630. And they were mad. Yeah. And I was like. I try not to fly before 8am. Like I won't do it. The only, yesterday was the first time I've done it in years. It's a lot.

I just can't. And then there's, yeah, you know what? I just do. It's so easy. Like you yourself. Yeah. You know what? I just do. It's so easy. Like you're on the flights and you're like, I'll do a 6 a.m. flight. You forget that you have to get there like two hours earlier. That's the thing. Flying 8 a.m. still means you're getting up at 5.

Right. Totally. And the airport's like an hour, hour and a half from my house. Yeah. No, thank you. I feel like it's almost doable on the way to a vacation, but on the way back, there is nothing worse than when you're like, I sold myself out. Like, I cannot believe I have to do this.

100%. I think if you're coming back, that's why living West Coast is nice because you actually get your day back, but you should never be flying before noon if you don't have to. Yeah, no. Because like you realize. I don't know because I did the opposite last night and I left New York at 730 and then I like got in here at like midnight and I was like, it's three for me now. And that was miserable. Are you from New York?

No, I was just there for the weekend. Oh, like doing a really late night is not any better. I like red eyes. Well, that's I love. Anyway, we're off topic. Whole episode on how you should fly on flying. Mike Tyson beat the shit out of someone on a plane is what we're we're talking about so i really the discussion is a long story very long story short

is this very inebriated annoying fan was badgering mike tyson and turns out this person i don't know if this is relevant or not has a uh an arrest record uh yeah so he's been arrested for, I don't know if it's being annoying, but he's been arrested. That's a character. Of course, Mike Tyson's been arrested too, so there is that. But it's context for another altercation.

This guy's been arrested for just, it sounds like he's been arrested for being a punk. So this is what he does? Kind of. Okay. And I don't know at what point it escalated but mike tyson a world-class boxer and to the point where one could argue that his hands are like registered like weapons like legit weapons started punching

this guy so the big question is is that like it's not okay to punch anyone. So we're never condoning violence. But at what point, like, do you have the right to, like, protect yourself from harassment if someone's like really getting in your face? And how many times can you ask them nicely? how many times can you ask them nicely, at what point do you have the right to push back? You know, as someone, like, you know, I don't think Mike Tyson should have punched the guy. I'm not saying that. But it's like, this guy truly seemed to be asking for it. And I think that's so frustrating in arguments when someone's behaving super badly

and there's an expectation on the other person to just take it, to take it, to react calmly. And it's like, at what point do you, are you allowed to respond to crazy with a little bit of crazy of your own right it's like nobody ever is talking about what they did to provoke you just the reaction that you give yeah and the reality is mike tyson being a celebrity being a boxer he should be held to a higher standard. Right. There is that argument. And... Yeah, but it's also... But he took a selfie with the guy.

Like, I think we have, like, Ezra Miller, who's, like, doing... Like, throwing chairs at women in Hawaii. And this, to me, feels like a situation where, like, of course, violence never the answer. But, like, he was trying to be nice. This guy was just, like, kept antagonizing him again and again and again.

But there was nothing to do other than punch him? Like where was the flight attendant? Exactly. Like was there an air marshal? Like in Bridesmaids? What's his face? Can we get him? Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, definitely. But also it seems like no one, he's not being charged with anything. Well, I think the guy didn't. Got a lawyer. He wouldn't cooperate with police. Yeah, he was being uncooperative. The guy who got punched.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I think he realized he fucked up maybe. I don't know. I mean, he was being uncooperative. The guy who got punched. Yeah. Yeah. I think he realized he fucked up, maybe. I don't know. I mean, he probably sobered up pretty quickly. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, if you're a fan of Mike Tyson, kind of an iconic story to get punched by him.

I get, like, terrible. Terrible and painful, but, like... I thought the same thing. If you're trying to get a celebrity encounter out of it, like, you got a celebrity encounter. I survived a punch from Mike Tyson. There's... Yeah. It's like, you wanted a selfie encounter. I survived a punch from Mike Tyson. There's, yeah. It's like, you wanted a selfie, you got a video that is on the internet

for everyone. He's telling that story for the rest of his life. Yeah, for sure. With, to your point, with probably great pride. I couldn't watch the video. My friend tried to show it to me last night.

I was like, I don't want to see it. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't see it. He was just kind of... Yeah, just, he kept going and I was like, turn don't want to see it. Like, I couldn't. I couldn't see it. He was just kind of... Yeah, just he kept going and I was like, turn it off. It was crazy. Anyways, it's a nice segue to, I think, the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp

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That is C-A-N-V-A dot M-E slash V-I-A-L-L canva.me slash V-I-A-L-L. We had Elizabeth on from Variety to talk about it a little bit last week and i feel like so much has come out since then it's kind of an overwhelming thing my my overall takeaway is this is just continues i think it's i think it's really just sad yeah and and depressing. And my fear is that it will have long-term ramifications far beyond what's being talked about. At the end of the day, I think these are two huge celebrities that still only care about how it's affecting them.

And I don't know if there's a lot of consideration for how people will perceive this and how it will play a role in in society i mean there's just such big celebrities also do we know why this is being shown as like a reality tv show like how is it decided whether courts have cameras in or not do Do we know? I don't know. I just got out of a defamation lawsuit. You did?

Yeah. Personally? I lost, yeah. Well, it was dismissed. I didn't lose. It was dismissed. You were suing them? Yeah.

For defaming you? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, and it was a waste of $200,000. I'm so sorry. But you live and you learn. What light can you shed on this? Like, why did you lose?

Because I think also a lot of people, when it comes to this, there's the court case that we're following. Right. And then there's the story of the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp relationship. Right. And as it relates to this court case, those are two very different things. Right. Because Johnny Depp is suing Amber Heard for defamation. He's choosing, Johnny Depp wanted this trial.

Right. It's my understanding that Amber Heard and her team tried to get this dismissed four separate times. So, and she didn't want this trial. He did. And it's not like they were, they weren't both brought in here by like the government. Right.

This is not like a trial, like no one's going to jail after this. This is Johnny Depp wanting this to happen to get what I assume his side out. So you had experience in this. Yeah. What other than you were, it sounds like you regret it.

What was your biggest takeaway and what did you learn about this and what how are you seeing this trial differently as a result i actually don't regret it because i stood up for myself i felt like i was taking just like a lot and i stood up for myself so ultimately like if nothing else that's what i got out of it um who did you sue one of my cast mates on the show interesting yeah so it was dismissed because i personally think it was you know the state of florida i had to sue her in the state of florida um and they just look at things very differently but i think he didn't the judge didn't feel like i proved malice, like she purposefully spread rumors and lies.

You know what I mean? So it's the intent that, and that, so they weren't even arguing whether she did it or not. It was, she didn't mean to ruin your life, so to speak. Correct.

So that was dismissed. Interesting. But for Amber Heard and Johnny Depp, I mean, I'm pretty sure he lost every single one of his deals except for Dior. But it also, I think you make an interesting point. I think it's relevant in this case because, I mean, my TikTok for you page is a lot of Amber Heard and Johnny Depp trial. And there's a lot of lawyers.

I don't know anything about these lawyers or their qualifications, but they're self-identified lawyers like giving insight from the legal standpoint. And I've seen a handful of takes suggesting that they don't think Johnny should win, not because of who they believe, but more based off of there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to suggest that her op-ed could be directly linked to his demise or that it was malice.

I don't know if I agree with that. I don't know if I agree with it either. But again, I'm not, from a lawyer standpoint, it just seems like the burden of proof seems to really fall on... The wrong person? Yeah. That's how I feel. And also, it's really hard, too, because it varies from state to state. So the laws and

what you have to prove are a little bit different. And I feel like the same case that they fight in California, it could be very different in New York and the outcome could be different in Texas and the outcome could be different in Florida. And that's super frustrating too. And it's, it sounds like that because it's in Virginia, this trial. Yeah, it's in Fairfax County. Why Virginia? Because that's where the servers of the publication who Amber wrote the 2018 article, like that is the center of this trial.

The servers are located there. So that is why it is there. I also heard, and I don't know if this is true, but to Cale's point, the defamation laws are a little bit more lenient in Virginia than they are in other states. Like the burden of proof, I don't think is as difficult. And I think they have different laws around like this

is a jury trial. Right. And in your case, it sounds like it was at least decided by the judge who dismissed it. Or was there still a jury trial? Mine didn't end up going to the jury trial because opposing counsel filed an anti-slap motion, which is essentially like, she didn't defame me. I'm trying to silence her freedom of speech. So not all states recognize them in the same way or have that. That is really interesting. But anyway, so yeah, there's a lot of parallels between this case. And it seems like Virginia seems to be specifically chosen. And again, I don't know what Virginia's laws are.

But to your point, there are different laws in different states. And it might be, it seems like it might be more in favor or the burden of proof is like easier in Virginia. Makes sense. But it seems like the support seems to be going more in Johnny's direction. I mean, when I'm watching them, I would say I support Johnny. It seems like the support seems to be going more in Johnny's direction. Is that? I mean, when I'm watching them, I would say I support Johnny. Yeah. Which surprises me.

I didn't know that people were saying he shouldn't win. Well, again, I think lawyers are saying that as it relates to the defamation. Like from a legal standpoint. From a legal. Okay. And I think when it comes to people watching this trial, I don't think most people are really giving a shit or caring about like that. Right.

I think also they just, you know, someone who doesn't have any, I don't know a lot about defamation cases or how it all works. So I think we, and Elizabeth mentioned this last week, where what we're hearing is different than what like the jury's hearing too. Right. hearing is different than what like the jury's hearing too right and i think we often like we're we're watching a lot of clips from the trial but we're also being inundated with a bunch of information outside of what's going on and i don't know if we even know what's what i mean i don't right there's so much out there and it's just like is yeah we we hear these tapes etc etc but was this shown to the jury? Is it not shown?

Like something could be inadmissible, so there is that. Johnny's so funny when he answers the questions. He has like, I don't want to call it condescending, but just like a very funny way of answering all the questions. It's just very like dry and to the point. Like someone was like, would you say like you started drinking at this hour or you like drank early and he was always like isn't it happy hour somewhere.

It's just very like. It's a bit tongue in cheek. Yeah or like they asked him is this your signature like four or five different times. He's like the same signature that you asked me the last three times. Yes that's my signature. Oh my god I saw this compilation of the lawyer being like did I get that correct? Oh yeah did I get that correct? Did I read that right?

Yeah. Or the hearsay. Yeah. It was the hearsay one where Johnny Depp was like learning about what hearsay was because at first he didn't know. Yeah. So the way he was answering the questions was, I guess, technically hearsay. Hearsay. Yeah.

You know? So Johnny was kind of, I guess, ende... Hearsay. Hearsay. Yeah. You know? So Johnny was kind of, I guess, endearingly, like, answering that way. And it just raises an interesting point because, like, that's the problem, I guess, I have with this overall trial is because you are talking about these major celebrities and then you bring in fandom into the equation.

And I do think we need to be careful with that because our love for johnny and or amber heard shouldn't play a role in terms of how we feel about the case but it's also impossible not to have it play a role i agree although i will say i had no idea who amber heard was prior to this. Really? I had no clue. Yeah, me neither. I might live under a rock, but. She is a fairly, I mean, she's not Johnny Depp A-list celebrity, but she's been in some big movies.

Like what? Aquaman. Oh, really? Yeah. I've seen that a hundred times. What character did she play? She's the queen, like she's the, yeah, that's what I'm saying. What? Okay. She's a big deal yeah yeah okay and i will say i i first heard of her as well as johnny depp's wife long before but anyway well

it's interesting also because it's like in taking the thinking about fandom and how that exists prior to this case it's like in court there are character witnesses so it's like it's confusing as well because it's not like it's completely out court there are character witnesses so it's like it's confusing as well because it's not like it's completely out of pocket to take into account the someone's persona beyond like the strict facts of the case and the way they exist in the courtroom in the moment right but then when you add celebrity to it and you have like stan culture and this kind of like frothing at the mouth like tribalism fandom It's like it gets muddy really quickly. You know, I've really, what I've learned,

whether it's watching The Bachelor or following pop culture or just in life, you know what really seems to trigger people more than anything? Is that feeling misled or tricked by people. Right. You know, when people watch The Bachelor, no one on the show gets more hate than someone who presented themselves as a good person only to be portrayed as a bad person,

like through the edit. So it's just like, we thought you were a good, it happens a lot in Paradise when you have like, oh, we loved you. And then it's just like, we thought you were a good, it happens a lot in Paradise when you have like, oh, we loved you. And then it's the Tyra Banks, we were rooting for you type of like energy. We were all rooting for you.

Yeah. And I think just when we feel led on by someone, especially someone who we thought was like a role model of some kind, someone we looked up to, and then we learn

about a behavior that makes us feel quite the opposite, I think our level of hatred or just feeling animosity towards that person is magnified times 10. Yeah, because of the perceived betrayal of it. Yeah, and I think, and when you look at this trial, I think that's where a lot of the focus is on is because Amber Heard wrote this op-ed for the Washington Post and essentially propped herself up as a victim. Well, not only a victim, but like a figurehead in the Me Too movement, so to speak. figurehead in the me too movement so to speak and now with all this information coming to light we are learning that amber heard is while she still could be a victim of emotional and physical abuse she also seems to be a per it's what's clear is that she's clearly a perpetrator from what i

understand from the information that's out there like johnny depp has said some horrid things right to and about amber heard which i again as not a therapist i i would say that sounds emotionally abusive at times like he doesn't seem like he is without some fault here sure but when it comes to amber it's like they're she's admitted to physical violence like it still seems unclear it's it seems like here he said she said when it comes to whether johnny ever laid a hand on amber right unless i'm missing something there doesn't seem to be hard evidence that would suggest that he has physically laid a hand on her. But there is evidence, like a lot of evidence that suggests that she has.

Including her own admission on a tape. More than anything, yes, her own admission. She was once arrested before she ever dated Johnny Depp for hitting her ex-girlfriend. So she even has a history, a documented history of domestic abuse. What was the makeup that came out? Oh, Milani. Then there was that, right? So then there's the, she, her lawyer said like, this was the makeup kit that Amber Heard used to cover up bruises that she claimed were given to her by Johnny Depp. And then the Milani makeup company, like, did this whole viral TikTok that said, we didn't make this until 2017.

And she was claiming to be using this in 2016. Which, you know, on one level, I go, I think to myself, maybe she confused the makeup kit no probably not you also like it's if at best it this shows that you your facts are you're confusing your perceived facts and so either you're lying or you just are confused you're misremembering certain things and if you're someone who can you're misremembering certain things. And if you're someone who can so easily misremember something, you're less likely to be, you combine that with the fact that she's done all these things, it gets a little messy. But my, I guess my concern is

it, it doesn't mean that Johnny Depp hasn't done things wrong either. But it's not what you know, it's what you can prove. Yeah. And if they can't prove it, I think it's really sad though. I think if you're using makeup to cover bruises, that's trauma. You're going to remember what you used in my opinion. Yeah. And I just wonder, there's obviously a lot of women who have been victims of domestic abuse and it just it seems like there's a lot of anger animosity towards amber

her because it's it will have long-term ramifications on people who need to be believed do they have kids together no no no he has them from a previous relationship i wonder how his kids are doing well a big part of what he he seemed you know, it's like, why did he come forward? Which I do think is interesting. On some level, do we take into account the fact that, like, Johnny Depp wanted this trial? And he must have known that some of these ugly things that he has said and done would come up yeah and it seems like Johnny Depp said fuck it I would rather have people hear that things I am ashamed of I need to apologize for and think of me as someone who has said some like potentially verbally abusive things versus I've hit a woman before I'm right and it's like he chose it goes less lesser of two evils it goes back to the mike tyson thing though right like at what point do you fight back like at what point do you stand up and defend yourself and you know the cost of that is him having the verbal you know the verbal

abuse come out but i mean i mean we're talking about his whole entire career yeah his kids are 20 and 22. And that was actually one thing that he cited as a key reason for why he was proceeding with this trial was wanting his kids to not have to respond to false allegations about him as an abuser. And so it's very. Like a wife beater. Yeah. It's like his whole personal life is just getting like so exposed and ripped apart and then there's also like there's so many nuanced elements of this like where there's the fact that both amber and johnny how coming from households where they experienced abuse as children there's also the substance use

of it all i don't know if again if they're showing this stuff in court but they had a lot of like their phone calls recorded yeah and at one point he was just he reached a level of frustration with amber and he was like i'll see you in court he was like, I'll see you in court. He was like, I never said what you said I did. Like, I never did that. I'll see you in court. And also he's like, I've seen recordings of multiple, I think multiple recordings of him pleading with her being like, you can't hit me and saying like, at some point I'm going to respond. Back to the Mike Tyson thing where it's just like, at some point I'm going to defend myself and escalate you know like if you could talk to a certain way like you can be a calm person but at some point you just you match people's energy right and we talked about this last week like i think it was a wrong to say like

i don't know what like we i think we uh we refer to it as mutual abuse which probably is a wrong way of phrasing that. But what happens, it's pretty common, I think, in relationships, not necessarily the physical aspect. When we think about our young loves or our early relationships, we all have been guilty of yelling at each other and fighting. And is that just too toxic people? But but like how do you hold the individual accountable when you i guess engage in it as well and you engage it as well with the dynamic yeah i don't i don't know that you can because you're doing the same thing yeah if you're both basically saying fuck you and name calling and using inappropriate language and belittling one another like does it matter who started it to a certain point or no i i really i don't know the answer to that and it's like

but i you recognize the wanting like you want to remove yourself from a situation but sometimes you know people will say well it's not as easy to remove yourself from a situation, but sometimes, you know, people will say, well, it's not as easy to remove yourself from a situation. Yeah. And I think when there is a situation where it's like this dynamic is so toxic and you have two participants in it, it's worth considering like the power dynamics that exist both kind of in the relationship and then also within the toxicity of it. Because I think so often when we talk about domestic violence as it takes place with women in households, not on like this large celebrity scale, there's the element of, you know, women oftentimes still primarily being tasked with taking care of kids

in a lot of relationships and how they might not have the financial freedom to leave and how that power dynamic can really influence the context with which there is this toxicity. And so it's really and it's there's so much context and it's so confusing and it's so hard to parse through all of the various things and assign blame to people while also holding accountability. It's just like it's a mess. Yeah. Then there was the tape of Johnny moaning in agony while detoxing from his self-identified opiate addiction. And my understanding is that Johnny Depp accused her of withholding his medication that was prescribed to him by his doctor to help him

get through his detox like a suboxone or something like that yeah so yeah i don't like some sort of either pain relief or whatever that while he was going through this detox and as his wife was his primary caregiver so she was responsible for giving this medication of which he claimed that she was withholding like psychological like if that's true that's torture that's so what a weird you got to be sick to do something like that i just feel like what kind of power ego trip was she dealing with i don't know and again like that i don't know if that's also proven that is that is alleged that is alleged accusation from johnny depp i don't know if there's actual proof.

There was a tape of him moaning. I don't feel like you can make that up. And I'm not even a huge Johnny Depp fan, but that's just, like, so weird to come up with. And if you... And if that is true, boy, I mean, whatever, like,

that can mess with someone's brain, psychology, and... That's traumatic. And if he yes and so like do we all if he said any of these nasty things about amber her f like after that is do we do we look at it differently as a result of him literally being tortured by her if it's true because that would be torture i don't know i feel like I would give him some forgiveness for that. Yeah. And it is kind of, it's just a wild, wild case.

But I... Yeah, and it's probably, it's so triggering to so many people. And I think it's hard because in even trying to unpack it, you're asking questions and like kind of what you were saying before about how this, like, I think there's a real fear that this is going to undo some progress that we've made in terms of like believing victims of abuse, specifically women, of like in order to unpack this you have to scrutinize people. Right. In a way that is I think really unbecoming when you're

talking about violence, especially sexual violence, because you don't want survivors to feel sort of like interrogated it like you know it's obviously an incredibly tender subject that you want to approach with a lot of care but in order to parse through all of this stuff you have to ask those questions and i i don't know it's like i feel really uncomfortable talking about it because i yeah i feel like it's yeah it's just like really uncomfortable for me like like totally portraying Amber Heard as like a villain, the bad guy, because you don't want her to be perceived as like the the rule when in fact it seems maybe like she's more of the exception in terms of like a victim who might be coming forward and making claims that are false. and making claims that are false. Yeah. I mean, it's an uncomfortable conversation to try to have. And, but for someone who knowing she, knowing she was a perpetrator of domestic abuse, because that's like irrefutable at this point, is it not?

Listen, so I was married and I pushed my ex-husband and then I got in another relationship afterwards and he was abusive towards me. And I felt like I have felt up until this point, like I can't talk about that because I pushed my ex-husband in 2012. So it's hard because it's like, okay, yeah, I did do that. I've owned it. I've talked about it. I've apologized for it.

So now I can't, I have been, I guess you could call that, you know, abusive. And then I turn around, you get what I'm saying? Sure. Yeah. And now I can't talk about the abuse in my most recent relationship because of that. That's an interesting point too. Yeah. Does that make sense? No, it totally does. And, you know, we mentioned that Amber Heard was arrested for hitting an ex-girlfriend. That doesn't mean...

That she hasn't been abused after that. By Johnny Depp. Right. But it's, yeah, people do use it as like data points. Even us discussing the Mike Tyson thing, like be like,

oh, well the guy that he punched did have a, an arrest for this. Like it's like all these data points of what people bring to these conversations. Right. I guess it's just more the fact that she's on tape admitting to hitting Johnny Depp for her to have written this op-ed and kind of propping herself up as someone that other specifically women victims could look

up to as someone who they who gives them a sense of courage and purpose, like, you know, just feel like you're not alone. Right. To know that in this specific relationship where she was, you know, she never named Johnny Depp, it was clear who she was talking about. Yeah, I think you just feel really betrayed. She already had an arrest record at that point.

Apparently, yeah. But to your point, like, you're like,'re like just because she like who knows the context i mean i don't you know and you're it's never okay right never you know but it doesn't mean you're not a it doesn't completely like if like one doesn't cancel out the other yeah so it is it is very messy shanti you've been found in this case and you've been is this something you're comfortable messy. Shanti, you've been found in this case and you've been, is this something you're comfortable talking about? But you've talked about with us that you're a survivor of domestic abuse. Yeah. I do feel extremely comfortable talking about it because it's an uncomfortable situation. And I was in a violent relationship

when I was much younger and it was hard to get out. And just like Kale said, you do feel like if you did do anything to that person as well, then maybe you don't have justification to then say I was a victim of domestic violence. And it took me a lot of years to realize that it wasn't my fault, but there are two sides to the story. do want to kind of, you know, defend Amber or not defend Amber, but you also look at it like Johnny is guilty as well. But as a victim and a survivor of domestic violence, I do have a tendency to think that Amber might be a little bit more guilty. And I'm just saying that as my opinion, because it does seem like she's more of an aggressor. And just like you guys are saying, I don't think that Johnny is completely innocent in this, but I do think that there's so far been a lot of evidence that really shows, and I'd like her to be a spokesperson,

but I don't feel like she really can be a spokesperson for someone like myself who was in a domestic violence relationship. I don't feel like she is the right spokesperson for those who have survived domestic violence. How does it make you feel being a survivor having heard some of this testimony, like, do you have a specific feeling towards this case?

I do because so far, based on the evidence, it seems like she was very violent. Like, she really hurt him a lot. Words are one thing, and words can be bad. But so far, based on this, you know, he's got a finger that's damaged. Like he seems to have had more of the physical abuse and the emotional abuse than she, but it still has to come out. Right. And it's all very triggering. You know what I mean? I'm big enough to admit that when I was in a relationship, just like Kale said, did I push back a couple of times? Absolutely. But he was more violent and I'm the

one who was strangled on the neck and hit in the stomach. And you know what I mean? So as the aggressor, yeah. Did I do a couple of things that were wrong? Did I antagonize him? Possibly, but I was still hurt more. And so far based on the evidence, you know, normally you're right. You do want to kind of, even though it's sexist, you do want to kind of back the female. But so far, I feel like she was more the aggressor and he was trying as much as he can to not hurt her back. He said awful things via text. But again, you can also journal those things. As long as you don't actually do them, it's not as bad.

My lawyer told me, don't ever send a text that you can't read on a witness stand. Changed my life. Because even in, you just never know when they're going to come up. Totally. Shanti, thank you for sharing. I think this is Shanti's first time talking on the show. Anyways, we thank you for being so vulnerable about it. But yeah, I just think that's, I think that's's the biggest takeaway i think it's just a really sad situation because it just seems like this while so many people are consuming this trial it just seems like it's not it's gonna have it's gonna do more harm than good the i think the only one maybe positive takeaway is i think it does shine a light on, you know, from a guy's standpoint

about like that domestic abuse, specifically like verbal abuse, like and physical abuse can happen the other direction. And I think, well, I know that a lot of guys feel uncomfortable even acknowledging that or, or that they were treated a certain way, whether it's fear that people won't believe them. And I know that's something all women who have been victimized deal with too. It's just, I think any victim worries that whether they're going to believe. And then if you're a guy, there's that thought of like, don't be a pussy, you can take it kind of thing. And I do think there, there is a positive aspect of creating conversations around that topic of it's okay for a guy to speak up and say, like, I don't want to be talked to this way. And again, like it's something I mentioned last week, not in any way like not in any abusive situation, but like I've gotten better in the little bit.

Like when you're dating someone, it's just that that's your person. So it's just common when you're angry or tired or frustrated and they're next to you to just, you know, talk to them in a frustrated manner that seems unjustified to that person. Right. And I think in the past when my girlfriends were just in a bad mood or whatever, they would like, you know, oh, you're just an asshole or whatever. And I remember as a young man, I would just take it.

I would just be like, ha, ha, ha. Or like, it's okay to talk to me that way. And as I've gotten older, I've learned to say, you know, and I don't like, Natalie doesn't talk to me that way. But even once in a while, if someone's in a bad mood, you just say, Hey, you can be in a bad mood and I'm here for you, but like, please don't speak to me this way. And I've gotten better at saying that. And it's really helped my relationships because it's one of those things in the past, I used to just let it slide, let it slide, let it slide only for it to start bothering me. And then when I would bring it up, it was like, what are you talking about? And it would, it just, it just became too much as opposed to just saying, Hey, we can be upset, you know? And like,

I think it's okay for people in relationships to say, Hey, so please don't, please like, like focus on the energy you're bringing.. It's not that it's abusive or anything. It's just like it feels uncalled for on the receiving end sometimes. And I do think there's like a like a positive takeaway, I guess, is a healthy dialogue around that. But other than that, it's it's a real messy, messy thing. I will be so curious to see how it turns out, because I just feel like in lawsuits, you just literally never know which way it's going to go. Like you could feel like you have a slam dunk case. I mean, I have brought defamation cases to my attorneys multiple times and they always told me no, no, no, no, no.

Brought this one against my castmate and they were like, yes, we got this. And you still lost. Well, I didn't lose. It was dismissed. But I mean, same thing. It's essentially a loss, you know? So I would just be so curious if you know we're kind of all well it also begs the question like i think maybe part of the reason that johnny depp might have proceeded with this

case is like the public perception right and like of course there is like the financial aspect there is being vindicated like in a court of law but even from what we're hearing so far, there's been this mass versus before where like, I had like a vague thought of Johnny Depp as a wife beater. And now I am learning so much more about this relationship. So the question is like, how much of it is even about the specific outcome of the trial versus just like the truth being and like being heard on a large scale. That was my takeaway from mine was it was the principle. I'm standing up for myself. So I care less about the dollar. I care less about the amount, was it was the principle i'm standing up for myself so i i care less about the dollar i care less about the amount but it's like i'm gonna stand up for what's

not true you're not gonna spread this about me and i feel like he also that's probably it's probably about principle for him to some degree i don't think it gives a fuck about whether he wins or loses wins or loses yeah but i think it's yeah exactly to like both of your points like now everyone i think we at least meet like i was like oh case closed johnny depp's a bad person you know what i mean right we're like we had this view of him and now even the fact that people are you know stepping back and evaluating both sides and i think from what we've seen and heard a lot of people are leaning towards john now yeah it's really not about the money no i also i also think like the degree to which it is like ugly and toxic and it is being like ripped apart and viewed in the public eye like so often these like most unbecoming moments that we experience like you are so shrouded in shame because it's like really upsetting both for you or your partner to admit like the depths of depravity you've gone to, like the crazy things you said. And I think there is something about, and of course, like in so many ways, these are not normal people. There

is like a scale of like detachment from real society, but seeing just how toxic it is and actually getting those messages, I think on some level for anybody who's ended up in a really bad situation, I think it's almost, I don't want to say like validating, but like just like seeing those messages, I think, sort of expose something that we so often never, never, never get to see. I wonder if that, if those messages and the things that he's admitted to, like any of his fault, will actually impact like his career more or the same as her accusations in the first place. Because, you know, he lost so much. Yeah. Will he lose more? Will he get any of them back? as her accusations in the first place? Because, you know, he lost so much. Will he lose more? Will he get any of them back?

Well, he kind of has lost it all, other than you said Dior. I think, yeah. I feel like her career is done. And I actually could see him getting work again as time passes because, and I don't even know if this is right, but the sentiment of i think a lot of people uh are this is this room which is i just took amber heard's accusations at face value i

wanted to believe her i now have found out that she like physically abused him it's on there to date there's no hard evidence that he did physically abused her and in fact like some of these like this makeup kit would suggest that maybe she's not completely truthful and and i think there's a lot of internal like feeling bad for casting judgment on a person now that we now wonder is innocent and i think that's where a lot of people watching the trial i think that's where most of their energy is going and i think we all love a redemption story just in general right and i think he can he has room i think more room to redeem himself redeem himself than she does. Right. I think people, because of their guilt of assuming the worst in him and then backtracking, allows people to want to see him have this comeback.

Right. At least some people. I agree with you. I think there's a great, not all people, whether he deserves it or not remains to be seen. But I do think just the overall public perception and the fact that he is Johnny Depp. I want to know how they pick the jury for this because everyone knows who Johnny Depp is. Yeah. I was thinking about that too.

I was like, this has got to be, I mean, like I'm assuming the jury's like sequestered away. Like this is like a big. Sequestered away from where? I don't know, from media. You know what I mean? Like they can take a jury and put them in hotels. But are they allowed to know who Johnny Depp is? Of course. I think so, right? Okay. So they to know who Johnny Depp is? Of course.

I think so, right? Okay, so they can know who Johnny Depp is but not information about the... It's just a case. I'm like, are they being... Same for the Black China and Kim Kardashian or Kris Jenner. How do you pick...

I don't think they're supposed to like... They're not supposed to be going on all the things that we're following. But they're allowed to know who the people are. To your point, how would they not know? How could could they i'm sure you could find to a certain extent but like we gotta go we gotta really dig yeah that would be so weird but that does play a role yeah for sure i have a want to pose a question i thought about this the other day like with social media being what it is and people be it's so easy to just tweet anything

and say anything and throw out an accusation. And historically, as we now know, especially from your past, like defamation cases are hard to prove, um, and the laws around them. Do we need to change those laws at all? Yes. And like, it's so easy to like, do we, should we change laws where if you're going to throw out an accusation about

someone and it's then later on proved that either you were like, you did a poor job or lazy job reporting on it, whatever, like, does that not only defamation, should there be laws around that? Well, I think the burden of proof is on the wrong person. That's for one. Yeah. Yeah. I think there

should be laws changed because it's just like anyone can say anything and just be like, oh, that's just what I heard. And they're still allowed to spread that rumor. Like what? But what if I say, what if the opposing argument would be that's going to make it harder for, say, victims to come forward if they're faced with the possibility of, like, being charged with a crime or a financial penalty because the person they accused had more means to defend themselves? And it's not what happened. It's what you can prove, so to speak, right? Right. defend themselves and it's not what happened it's what you can prove so to speak right there there could be that argument but we are living in a world where it is so easy to just say shit right now we live in a world think about the whole um i mean obviously not on the same scale but the

clayton of it all the i slept with clayton last night suddenly we realize it's not clayton at all but that went viral. Everyone was suddenly thinking Clayton was this awful person who was cheating on Susie. And what if, like, Susie wasn't the queen that she is who's, like, patient and calm and understanding? What if it was,

what if it affected their relationship and they broke up? What if, what if Susie, what if this came out at a time where they were fighting about, like, I don't know, how much jelly should go into peanut butter sandwich. It was a stupid fight that they just had a bad day.

This came out, Susie left and in a moment of weakness, kissed a guy at a bar, which wouldn't make it okay. It wouldn't justify it, but like it all kind of happened because this shit came out and they were a little bit rocky and ultimately it affected their relationship. That's affecting someone's life. And what if it affected, you know, both of their potential to earn more money? You know, like

it is a privilege to go on a reality TV show and get a following and no one's like, none of us deserve the earning potential that comes with it. But at the same time, like, does that mean you have the right to just be so careless to go on a TikTok and like make up a story just because whether she was drunk or he was drunk and there was some lying and there just seems to be so little accountability whether it was malice or not like right if the only like go correct it if you found out later like if you spread misinformation and you find out later that it was misinformation correct it hey sorry, I shouldn't have said that. Take it back. You know, like hold yourself accountable. But even if you do, no one finds, no one hears the correction as much as they hear

the accusation. This is true. But even that whole thing too, it's like when Susie and Clayton have talked about it, like this girl said she reached out to Susie. She tried to tell Susie first, but she waited like an hour, maybe two. And Susie didn't answer because she didn't see the DM. And then she makes this video for everyone to see. I'm like, what are we trying to gain here? I just think in a world where you have cancel culture and then you also have things like the Me Too movement

and you still have just an overwhelming number of just victims who need to be believed and just in general we we we need to believe victims more than we are it should be easier for people who are violated in any way to come forward about an experience that happened to them and i think the the law is interesting enough are set up in a way where it allows people to lie without ramifications. So now that will make it harder to believe victims. Well, it's also because, yeah, and like so often we talk about this as believe women. And this is an area where it's incredibly hard to gather statistics on it.

But the statistics that they have gathered show that men are more likely to be sexually assaulted than they are to be falsely accused so it's a matter of when we talk about like kind of this yes of course like there is absolutely a place and we need to talk about specifically the way this violence impacts women but this also is violence that impacts everybody. Right. Well, to your point, though, is that because there's so many women who are victims by men, right? There's more men who are sexually... They're like perpetrators. Yeah, but wrongfully accused.

But when someone is wrongfully accused, back to our original point, people hate that so much. Like, you know what it reminds... Like, one of the first movies I ever saw as a kid that was an adult movie was the movie The Fugitive.

Are you guys familiar with that movie? No. Love that movie. It's a Harrison Ford movie. It's older. Like, it's one of those things, Ashanti's giving me a thought.

I fucking love that movie. First time I saw that, and so it's about a doctor who was wrongfully accused of murdering his wife, and he was sentenced to the death penalty. And in the beginning of the movie, he escapes and he's a fugitive and he's trying to prove his innocence throughout the movie. And I saw this movie as like a nine year

old, right? Like nine or 10. And it's the first memory I have of feeling anxiety. I remember watching it and feeling like, oh my God, you could be wrongfully accused of something. Like you could be sentenced to death for something you didn't do. And I just remember so vividly that feeling I felt of true anxiety as a child. And then it being one of the style, it's a a great movie but i think that's a relatable feeling for people the idea you could be so wrongly accused back to like you saying even though more men are sexually assaulted than who then who are falsely accused but when it when it does happen it is it becomes such a big story right that, that it has, it's almost giving too much, like, attention because the idea of people being falsely accused is something like no one, everyone, I think, relates to that fear of being falsely accused about anything. I have four boys and I think about that all the time.

I'm like, what if my kids, like, what would we do? Yeah. What do you do? And it's just like, and I think that feeling is something that is very relatable. So when it does happen, like in this particular trial, we tend to focus on it too much, which then makes it harder to believe. Yeah. We try to apply this widely when it's something that is only applicable to a very, very small percentage of cases. And I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree with Cale that I think that we should figure out a way to hold people more accountable so that the idea being is when people come forward, they're coming forward for a reason because like the opposite would be if they're lying they could serve a big penalty for and they're coming forward anyways i mean there's this is so nuanced and like we're we don't know how it could be done but it seems like there should be discussions about that because it's almost having an adverse effect on on the people who too truly need to be believed that's it's it

can be easy for people. And whether it's domestic abuse or just trying to get attention, like, you know, the Clayton story had nothing to do with domestic abuse. It had to do with just infidelity and cheating. But, like, that had an impact on people's lives.

Right. And it affected how people look at Clayton, his reputation. Yeah. There are thousands, thousands of people out there thinking that lives right yeah and it affected how people look at clayton his reputation yeah there are there are thousands thousands of people out there thinking that clayton has cheated on suzy yeah because they saw that tiktok and saw nothing else and just kind of moved on with their lives even though they're fine are they're fine yeah they'll still think that he did that and it's just like it's a weird thing so how how do we, you know, create an environment in a social media age where anyone can pick up their phone and tell a story,

whether it's satirical or a false accusation, whether it's they know they're lying or they, or they are just kind of more reckless. And, and it's just a really messy thing. I think more people want to see others fail than people want to see others do well. And so I don't think that we'll ever actually be able to have those changes because people never want to see someone else doing better than them.

So as long as there's more of those people, we're never going to see changes. Yeah, I'm curious like how both of you who have surely like been on the receiving end of a ton of really like hateful, hateful, hateful, there we go. Hateful like floods of DMs. Like how do you make sense of like someone choosing to send those messages? And I know you don't like try not to read them.

But like what is your mentality in terms of like making sense of why someone would take the time to like write such atrocious things to you? I mean, I've been in therapy twice a week for the past two and a half years um at this point i understand that it's like projecting right like it really is them hating themselves unfortunately um but it took me a long time to get here i used to cry all the time like what like why but they're so there really is so like the trolls definitely stand out louder than the positive comments. I don't know if it's the same for you. My therapy is generally centered around my ability to focus on what matters and not try to focus on things that don't matter,

specifically around trolls or people. And honestly, I had a really bad day yesterday because someone who has a podcast who just fucking hates me, which is fine. You're allowed to hate me. Totally. But it's someone who hates that I have my Ask Nick show where it's just like I take a lot of pride and I try to do it right. And I try to be respectful of the fact that like even though I constantly say like I'm not an expert and like don't I'm just someone's opinion like don't take this as right

but like I know that like they don't listen to my show I hope I know it's like their reaction based off the show but like some of the things they said about me in terms of like was like it just bothered me and then they made me call a friend to just check in and be like, am I doing it right? Or am I doing it wrong? And is it like, and it was just some random person who to your point? Yeah. It's they, I know it's a projection, but like sometimes it just, I just, it, it gets through my kind of like my, like that barrier I've learned to put up it like it penetrates that logical thought of like it's not me it's them and I can't but it's just like what if other people feel this way and what am I do like in my it's almost like the opposite of words of affirmation

right like the idea behind words of affirmation and you read good things about yourself or other people that you'll you'll believe them. But when you're constantly reading hate comments or you have that one person that doesn't ever give up, you start to question yourself and how, you know, is that how other people view me? Is that how a lot of people view me? Is it just that one person or is it all these people, you know, like it breaks you down and I don't. Yeah. Well, I went down a rabbit hole because this one person has a very small following and there were like other people were like yeah i fucking hate them too or whatever which is like i know there's more than like one person doesn't like me like i've and then other people would say hey like it's good to have

critics it means that you're doing things right because right at you get reached a certain level where some people just enjoy disagreeing with you right like it's a thing and a weird thing but a thing but nevertheless it was just like it it truly ruined my day like it yeah it was like i'm sorry i almost wanted to call darlene i love darlene i was just like you know can it's one of those things where you know like most of the time i'll just talk about it with Natalie and she's always really good at it of like talking like me down off the ledge. And I'm good at my, like therapy for me, therapy is giving me the tools to get myself better at talking myself's just like, I don't want to do this wrong. Right. And it can be a thing. I can relate.

Definitely can relate. I don't think when I signed up for reality TV that I knew that that aspect was going to come with it because I don't think that it would have such an impact if we weren't on reality TV and we weren't in the public eye. Like we wouldn't focus on it so much, you know, like it wouldn't hold so much weight, I don't think. Yeah. Cause I also, like, I don't know how you feel about from your end and the things that like you, you talk about, but like, I also recognize that like, if you don't listen to like the ASNIC, if you don't really, if you don't really... If you don't regularly listen to the show, I suppose on some level you think to yourself, this fucking guy from the Badger who I've truly fucking hated, who I saw be petulant or whatever,

is now giving advice to women? Are you fucking kidding me? And i get that you know but it's like something like i don't know how you feel but there's a part like my most toxic side wants to like sit down with every person who doesn't like me and try to convince them that i'm not a bad guy yeah no i'm the same exact way actually got um got an offer for Catfish Trolls Edition. And I wanted to meet my trolls on the show, but they all declined. I relate to that feeling so bad. I just want to like, tell me why you hate me. Just tell me. Like, I want to understand like,

what is the underlying, the root of the problem. They declined. Yeah. I'm actually surprised. Yeah. And they were offered like, I think it was like a thousand dollars for filming. And they were all like, why would we take two days off of work to film with you? And I was just like, y'all hate me so bad. Say it to my face.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And I've had some, I was just like, I spent an entire afternoon thinking about this person. I don't know who they are. And it like, I find it embarrassing for myself myself that the energy I gave to this person... Do you ever talk back to them? Like, do you ever respond?

Oh, no. I try not to. I mean, like on social? Yeah. Because when you first said that, I thought in my head, and I was like... Yeah, of course.

It's a fucking trial in here. You know how many times Natalie goes, what are you guys talking about? And by guys, like whoever I is, I'm like, I'm in the middle of a discussion with somebody. It's kind of embarrassing. It's like a thing we don't joke about because I often, I think, look crazy.

But yeah. Okay. But I try not to engage. Once in a while, I'll respond with like, I try to kill with kindness. Hope you're well. Hope you're well. Hope you're well. Thanks for listening. My favorite is when they act like they have like a degree

and a family and they're so happy and I'm like happy people don't do this. Happy people do not do this. But in reality they're like I think often working professionals who are quite educated. But they're miserable. And like they use like they think because maybe they're lawyers or but they're miserable and like they use like they they think because they

maybe they're lawyers or maybe they're whatever and there's a level of intelligence but they also are miserable major fans yeah and miserable and it's it's like a weird thing but i i feel like i've been there i feel like i've been in a place where i wasn't super happy but like i would say i was happy and i didn't know until i actually was happy and i was like oh that's, that's why I did those things. Like, you know what I mean? Like they don't realize how miserable they actually are. Just the way the internet is going, I just feel like something, either everyone needs to be verified or something where like you, we need to hold people accountable for the things that are just put that are happening because of online bullying and things like that. And we have no safeguards around like holding people accountable because like you can create like a bullshit account and no one even knows it's you, which is kind of crazy. Yeah. I think about that a lot about how like the internet is still relatively new. And I think it's going to be regulated in so many ways like even just from like a more like capitalist standpoint like i feel like

i'm going to like be telling my grandkids be like yeah you used to be able to make so many emails and just keep doing the free trial like i don't think you're going to be able to i think they're going to crack down on like someone's like digital presence and make it so that way it's like linked in a singular way to you yeah i i almost feel like they should. I hope they do. But I think we are so far away because I think despite, I think it's still incredibly new, even though we don't think of it that way. Right. Selling Sunset. I know it's out. You guys are big fans. I have yet to be able to tune in. Give us a brief what's going on. Have you ever seen any season? Yes. Okay. Okay. How much have you seen?

I've seen most of the first season. I know there's like five seasons. Yeah. And I've seen like bits of each season. And like as someone who like follows Chrishell closely and other people on the show, like I'm very familiar with the show and the characters on it, but I'm not familiar with like the specific drama going on. Okay. Like what's the major storyline

of this season so far? Well, it's picking up where season four ended. So season four was a lot of, we had two new women join the brokerage. Christine was pregnant, then had the baby, and she's come out since that she was dealing with a lot of, like, postpartum issues. But the women, like, it was really

Christine versus everyone else, and she was getting caught up in potentially some lies, and she shared an ex-boyfriend with one of the new girls, so they, like, had an ex in common. They had very different stories of... What happened. If there was cheating, if there was time lapse. Yeah, over with the two of them.

Season four ended with, like, a big party with everyone, and there was kind of like this blow up between Christine and these other girls. They wanted to have like a full group confrontation. So kind of like an intervention. Yeah. So like there was no, oh, she said, she said they wanted everyone to talk at the same time. And Christine wanted nothing to do with it. So she basically ended season four one on one with Mary, who they used to be roommates. They started season one together. And Mary was like, stop lying.

Like, you're not, like, what are you doing? Like, be honest with me. I'm giving you one final, like, olive branch. Christine yeeted. And then season five just picked up Mary and her husband Romaine, Chrishell and her boyfriend Jason, who owns the brokerage, they were all traveling in Europe together. So they're living their best lives on vacation.

It's really weird to see Chrishell and Jason together. They're now broken up, but yeah. Right now, in season five, they're still together? At the beginning, they're together. And everyone's just finding out. And who are the new people on the show? Emma. Emma joined last season, as did Vanessa.

Emma's the one who recently came out with the Ben Affleck story yes Micah is so fine he is the contractor that Emma I'm only a couple episodes in oh is this a new character

he's a contractor that is building these houses that I guess Emma is going to list for is someone going to build me a home? He's not even my type at all, but I'm like, wow, he's so attractive. He's, I don't know. I'm only on episode three because I literally have to schedule my TV time. But he's so good looking. And also I love Chrishell.

I think she's the cutest. Do you like her and Jason? Because for me, they give me weird vibes. It's definitely weird. I don't know that I, yeah, it's weird. It's's just like and they didn't like lead us into it in any way so like first scene is jason being like babe let me get your suitcase like how he dated somebody else before too right mary mary okay he threw them a birthday party he threw mary and chrishell a birthday party and i was like you're toasting two women you've had sex with.

That's a little weird. But I guess Mary doesn't care because Mary's married. I guess. I need to talk to her about that when she comes home. Yeah, but Mary, I feel like, still benefited from being, like, the little darling of Jason. You know what I mean? Well, now she's the manager. And, like, that was such a thread on the earlier seasons was, like, her getting a lot of opportunities

and sort of the perception that this was linked to her romantic history. So I wonder if Chrishellow is going to get it. Well, and Christine even said that. She was like, oh, I was wondering why I wasn't getting any listings. And then I realized I'm not fucking my boss. Do you think they actually like sell houses all year long or just for the show? I don't know. I think they must have started that way.

But they surely don't do that now. But now? I don't know. I'll ask Mary and I'll get back to you. There was a big thing. Didn't Chrissy Teigen call them out at like the very beginning, like season one or two? And she's like, why have I never seen any of your names on listings? And I think it was like Chrishell being like, what are you talking about?

We're all real. I know like Chrishell has been on this show and like she absolutely sells real estate. Like all year long? I don't know. Once or twice. I mean like I think the thing about real estate, you could, does that mean you're less of a agent? No, I don't think so. I just was curious if it was like an actual full-time thing or if they, you know.

I mean, clearly, Chrishell, and I'm most familiar with Chrishell, is that, like, she clearly has a bunch of things going on. And a lot of people, real estate as a side hustle. Yeah, and are very successful in it. You can kind of pick and choose. You can reserve your time as a real estate agent to only sell certain premier properties with certain clients. Right. Where it's not something. That's kind of cool.

It's your only job. You could never do that in Delaware. And also the work that you're doing, if you're putting yourself in adjacent to like high net worth individuals, even if you're just socializing, like that is in some ways like networking and like doing things for sure. There's so much that you can do to cultivate that like real estate presence that's not actually selling houses. Well, I think too, that's like in LA or like Miami, maybe even Dallas or New York, but not like in Delaware, you have to make it pretty much your full-time thing. Like I live, York but not like in Delaware you have to make it pretty much your full-time thing like I live the Amish are my neighbors you know so it's just very different. Kale. Yeah. Thanks for coming.

Thanks for having me. Boy we just got through a ton here. And do I understand you guys are doing a little swap? Yeah. Yeah I will be on your podcast. Yeah. Also as you mentioned you have Mary coming on. Yeah. Which I think is like a bigger deal than me. I don't know. I feel like maybe we should just have you and her on at the same time. Heck yeah. Well, I, we, we want,

I, I DM Christine yesterday to try to have her come on the podcast. I always, we always, Chris Shell has an open invite all always, and we definitely want to get some selling sunset cast on the show. I don't know if y'all want to come on at the same time. That's fine.

It's your show. Oh, I'm good for whatever. I'm just, I'm grateful to be on the show. I don't know. If y'all want to come on at the same time, that's fine. It's your show. Oh, I'm good for whatever. I'm grateful to be on your show. But when is the Mary episode coming out? You're recording it soon. Yeah, it's this week. You're recording it this week and probably soon. So look for that on your podcast.

Yeah, the Barely Famous podcast. Barely Famous. Not to be confused with Almost Famous. I didn't know that was a podcast. It's okay. Sorry. A lot of podcasts out there. It's hard to find a name.

Yeah. And then I called mine the Vile Files, which I kind of regret every day. Why? I love it. That's not even how you pronounce your name. What are you talking about? Right? Vile.

Yeah. Vile. The Vile Files. Yeah, exactly. Vile Files. Listen, I'm insecure about my last name. Why? What do you mean why?

It's great. Thank you. Women I dated made me feel insecure. Okay. And then being in the public. By being like, I'm not taking it? Like if we get married? Growing up.

You know when like you're at a summer camp or whatever, like people like, oh, it's people call your name. So no one got my last name right. Okay. And I always remember as a kid being like, how hard is it to, it's, it's how it's a vial. It's how it's spelled. But I think vial, right? Okay. Uh, I think a lot of people would overemphasize like other aspects because, or call it veil because they thought to miss themselves. There's no way this last name is

pronounced vial. And i just probably as a kid also as a kid i didn't know what that word meant and when i started dating in like high school and more specifically college women i dated would comment about like my last name and then i was like oh and then i remember asking like my aunts who have the same last name and they're like no we i fucking hated my last name and then i got real self-conscious about my last name or what it means and then you go on tv and then you know you learn about so many things like when you go on reality tv as you know you learn about all the possible ways someone can make funny of you yeah that you were like completely unaware of.

You're like, oh my God. I see it now. Oh my God. And so yeah, I just, I've become very self-conscious about it. And then, so what do I do? I put in the name of my show. That's okay. Own it.

Yeah, exactly. I like ViFi a lot. I feel like I'm. ViFi is cute. ViFi. The ViFi show? ViFi. ViFi. I say ViFi fam sometimes in the DMs.

Yeah, yeah. That's cute. There's a lot you can do with it. I do. People write nice DMs. Kayla, you're an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming.

I appreciate it. Thanks for sharing some insight on your experience in a defamation case. I should have done more research. No, you're fine. I did not realize that. Don't look it up. What a nice... Hey, listen,

I think it's something that was obviously very personal for you, an emotional thing. It offered some great insight and perspective on this case. As most things are in the world, like, they're nuanced

and they're worthy of conversations. And I guess that's what we try to do on this show i'm always afraid when these it's a sensitive topic we talked about you know i hope we gave it its respectful like i wanted to talk about this trial without getting into the fandom of it all right because there's so much passion and we live in a time where it's not like we don't tend to believe who's right or wrong. We tend to believe who we like the most. I think that's also dangerous territory.

Anyway, Kale, thank you so much. Thank you again. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send in your questions at AskNicotCastMe.com, cast with a K. Make sure to tune in tomorrow for Clayton and Susie, Matt King, his girlfriend Patricia, to talk a mediation, which I think will be wildly discussed. Until then, enjoy your day.

See you tomorrow.