The Viall Files - E414 Going Deeper with Clayton and Susie plus Matt King & Patricia Flach

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files, Going Deeper edition! Today we are joined by power couple Clayton Echard and Susie Evans as they return to the Viall Files to talk about their journey since the Bachelor and to reflect on some recent drama that put Clayton in the middle of the spotlight on TikTok. On this episode we talk about ways that Clayton has grown emotionally, his lingering regrets, and how he would react to seeing Rachel’s dad in a Chipotle. Then we dive into a TikTok drama where a girl accused Clayton of cheating on Susie with her, leading to Clayton and Susie learning about navigating a public relationship the hard way. Clayton then opens up to talk about struggling with body dysmorphia and how it’s a major issue for a lot of guys that often is not talked about. We then ask Susie about her spicy pictures in their collage and the couples baby talk. We then bring on our friends Matt King and Patricia Flach for our first in-studio mediation where they talk about saying “I Love You” to someone you’re not dating and setting boundaries you’ll be willing to change down the line.  “I put so much work into being a trustworthy boyfriend.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Blenders Eyewear: To score 15% off your Blenders purchase, visit http://www.BlendersEyewear.com and enter promo code VIALLVIP. Ten Thousand: Go to http://www.TenThousand.cc/Viall to receive 15% off your purchase!  Framebridge: Go to http://www.Framebridge.com and use promo code VIALL to save an additional 15% off your first order. Wonderskin: Get started with Curology with a free 30-day trial at http://www.Curology.com/Viall Just pay $5 for shipping and handling. Seed: Visit http://www.Seed.com/Viall and use code VIALL to redeem 20% off your first month of Seed's DS-01™ Daily Synbiotic. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @claytonechard @susiecevans @mattrking @patriciaeflach See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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But it's one of... It was just like a really honest conversation. By the way, this is a long fucking episode. I don't know how... As we're recording it, we're going to try to shorten it, but it might be long. Longer than normal. We don't typically have short episodes to begin with, but it's going to be longer. So stick with us. First, we have Clayton. Then

Clayton and Susie comes in. I thought we had a really nice update with Clayton on his journey, both as a person, his reflective thoughts on AFR and his time on the show. We learned more about Clayton and Susie's relationship, how they compliment each other a little bit more. I thought the drama, the Clayton not cheating scandal that has since been clearly

debunked. But I thought there was a really hysterical story from Clayton's point of view when that all went down. And then for our mediation call, my friends Matt King and Patricia Flack are our guests, who are our first in-studio mediation call. We really get in the weeds. It was a very relatable mediation call about, is it okay to express, say, I love you or in love?

Is it okay to express, say, I love you or in love? How careful should we be on the words we use to express? How would you describe it? When you have a friend crush on someone or you really look up to them and you express that by saying, oh, I love you or I'm in love with you, can that ever really be a platonic thing? Should that be happening in front of your significant other? criticism, because it's very easy to get defensive, especially when we put a lot of effort into a relationship. And, and, and just, it's such a nuanced conversation. And I really appreciate Matt and Patricia coming in to talk about what, what was obviously like a sensitive topic, something that they, that brought up some real vulnerability in a relationship that they've

gotten through it. But like, I think it's really an incredible relatable incredibly relatable fight discussion discussion it might not be like specific to what you thought about but every couple has not seen eye to eye about some version of this and how you both interact and communicate with people of the opposite sex that despite your overall confident insecurity in the relationship, you might feel triggered by something. And then how do we go about like communicating that and making the other person feel heard and seen and how do we address it without avoiding conflict? And how do you navigate couples having different standards about stuff like that? And how do you communicate that and what's fair?

Anyways, I hope you guys enjoy it. So if you are tuning in to listen to Matt and Patricia because you're fans of them and you're not Bachelor fans, I think there's a great takeaway in some interesting stuff with Clayton and Susie. And if you are obviously a lot of Bachelor fans tuning into this, if you don't know who Matt King and Patricia are and you like our mediation calls, just listen anyways. But I promise you, it'll be some really good, fun,

relatable stuff. Don't forget to send your questions at asknickatcastmedia.com, for our ask Nick calls or mediation calls. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as we enjoyed recording it. And if so, give us five stars. I love you. Can't thank you enough for choosing us. I feel like an airline. I love you. Can't thank you enough for choosing us.

I feel like an airline. We know you have a lot of options in the audio space. Thank you for choosing us. You're a file file. You can be a captain. We put our listeners first. Come back soon. We won't put you on standby.

Put your AirPods in before assisting others. So anyways, thanks for choosing us. Clayton, welcome back. Nick, thanks for having me, man. It's been a little bit of a minute. I almost think I forget how to do these now. I think a little bit has changed since the last time I've been on the airwaves.

Yeah, it has. I mean, how many, like have you done a lot of podcasts since AFR? You know, I started doing podcasts, but switching gears over different subjects. I've started to talk more about mental health. And that's been exciting. So more along those lines, just as far as my life experiences with where I've faced adversity in my life. catch up with you since the time on the show. We had the pleasure of talking to Susie right after AFR. As you know, we're big fans of her on the show. And I think a lot of people were really impressed with her. And I think even kind of shared some context in your relationship that people even immediately listening to her helped better understand the dynamic of the

relationship. You know, we were pretty hard on you. Like I was hard on you during AFR. Going back to that time, I'm curious, like what, like that fallout, like what was that personally like for you? And like, you know, it must have been difficult to hear all the criticism. And it seems like you're in a good headspace now, but how did you go from, you know, that criticism, whether it was me or other people in Bachelor Nation talking about things versus where you are now and how did you get there and kind of talk

about that journey that you had mentally? Yeah. So for me, I heard a lot. And I think I realized as I've taken time to reflect, I've been going to therapy now and I've done other forms of self-reflection as well. And what I found out that I was doing was at the end of the show and with all of the interviews that I was going on, I was really trying to salvage my image, my character. I was trying to defend and I was so hung up on that and really I felt backed into a corner. So I was doing everything in my power to try to say, well, like this is how I actually am. I swear I didn't mean to hurt anybody. And I said that time and time and time again. But what I realized was, you know, as much as I explained, oftentimes those explanations

can be sound like excuses. And I had to dive deeper and question, you know, why is it that people aren't understanding? And it's not that what I realized, it's not that they're not understanding. They're upset. Maybe not with my intent because they go, okay, like I bet I saw and people said, you know, I don't think he intended to be a bad person. I don't think he intended to hurt these, these women, but he did. So that's what we're upset about. It's about the results of your actions. And as I've taken the time to really let that settle in, I realized that perception is reality. So even though I might've perceived my reality to be different in how I handle the situations, I hurt people. Therefore, I have to understand that frustration and be able to see that for what it is. I couldn't see it because I was too busy defending my character when I

realized that I was probably just digging a deeper hole, trying to defend when I should have just accepted responsibility, accountability, and understood that I hurt these people. I heard a lot of people, people that watch the show that it brought up bad memories. And if I would have just been able to stop trying to be so, I guess, selfish and try to protect my own image and just put myself in other people's shoes. And this is where, again, I think you said that you said I lacked empathy.

I believe you said that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I did. Yeah. Okay. And yeah. So, you know, at first I heard that, but I always, it was always the follow-up and you didn't say this, but I heard a lot of people said that and they said, he lacks empathy and he's a piece of blank or he doesn't deserve to be happy or he's a terrible human being. And I became so defensive because I was hearing that second half of the statement. And I basically didn't want to hear any of it because that second half was so extreme that I'm like, man, I'm not a bad person. I deserve to be happy, but I couldn't see the first part. And I think now I realize that I unknowingly did lack some empathy. And a lot of that stemmed from

I couldn't put myself in those other women's shoes because I didn't even know where my own two feet stood. I was so confused, so lost and wanting to try to make sense of things. So I was just really focused on myself. And I just didn't, I didn't really take the time or I was just so hyper focused on trying to defend me that I never took the time to set in their position and say, okay, listen, like, how are they feeling about this? I just wasn't able to do that then, but I see it now as you see it now. It makes a lot of sense. I appreciate you being so kind of honest and vulnerable about that. One question I wanted to ask you, and you've kind of already answered it, but just in case you want to add more to it, last time I had you on this show, I asked you if you had any regrets and you said, I wish I didn't fall in love with multiple people,

which is a fair thing to say. But it also kind of focuses on your feelings where in the sense of like, we always talk about on the show how we can't help how we feel about any situation or people. Like our feelings are valid and they kind of show up. But how we kind of judge character and how we judge maturity in people and how we judge emotional intelligence in people is how they handle their feelings when whatever they're feeling kind of pops in. And I'm wondering what, how do you, how would you answer that question now in terms of like, what do you regret if anything, or more specifically, what would you do differently reflecting back on those moments where things kind of got messy and got you in trouble? Yeah. What would you do differently? And maybe a good way to answer

that question is a year from now or six months from now, there'll be a new bachelor and they might call you up and say, do you have any advice for me? What would be that advice that you would give? Yeah. You know, I think I was giving this advice and I think it still holds true after the show. I realized I shouldn't have made those assumptions. I regret the fact that I made assumptions and thought that I thought that me and the women all saw it the same way as far as where we were at. And it wasn't the case. And with that, I should have been able to ask more questions, see where the women were at before I made these really tough decisions, be a little bit more sensitive. I think sometimes I am a little blunt and I come out with things and just say it as they are. But you know, some people

appreciate that and some don't. And again, I certainly could have just approached certain circumstances better. And I would tell somebody that in the future, a future bachelor, I'd say, listen, you can always over communicate because it never hurts to and if it does hurt in a way well you know sometimes I know the truth can hurt at points but you're better off at least being fully transparent and honest I still believe even though some people there is at points or some people said I don't know why he's saying this this is I wouldn't say this out loud and I could certainly see that but I think again just asking more questions over, then you're going to be able to know exactly where those other women are standing.

You can, and then that, then you can place yourself in their shoes and you can have empathy and you won't train wreck the entire experience by, um, you know, trying to figure out where you're at. You got to figure out where you stand first, but, uh, I think that's where I failed. Yeah. And if I, and if I had to like go back in time, I would take more time at night to sit up for another hour instead of get that extra hour sleep and say, where are you at right now? Mentally, where do you stand? Okay. Once you figure out where you're at now, it's time to go a step further and figure out where they're at. I really, I really liked that you said that. And I know it's not easy to talk about and it's not easy to admit fault ever for a lot of people.

So I commend you. And I mean, just talking to you now, like you in the short period of time come across as someone you can kind of see the growth, at least from my point of view. I don't know if Allie and Amanda feel the same way, but you kind of see that reflective kind of point of view i don't know if ali and amanda feel the same way but you kind of see that reflection reflective kind of point of view and i'm glad that you one thing you would do differently and give advice for is to you know empathize and more specifically check in you know it was a topic of

conversation and one thing we talked about on the show whereas you know and i know i think meant you know the sex obviously the the sex aspect is something that is a hot topic in general regardless of when you talk about it but you know there was that point where you were like oh even when you said to suzy right you're now you're now a girlfriend like why didn't you say this to me before why didn't you bring this up and also i think the show sometimes put the puts the burden of checking in on on cast rather than the lead and it's nice to hear you say that would you agree that in general you think the leads regardless if it's the bachelorette or the bachelor should hold more of the responsibility to check in with the cast, even though they're

the person who's being pursued? That's a great question. My initial answer would be, I think it should always be balanced among the lead and cast. But I also believe too, that as the lead, you're in a very unique position. And that holds a lot of weight as far as where you are. And you know how you feel about all of the women, but they really don't know on their side of things how you feel. So it's kind of they're in the dark. And because of that, I think that, again, I should have just been more forward. Even if it hurt, I should have just found a way, obviously to do it the right way to be sensitive towards others' feelings. But I think because I was more in the know, that means I have more of a responsibility

to be the one to check in and let them know where I'm at because I found out that they were shocked to find, figure out where was at at the end of it all. All the final women were like, oh my gosh, this is your reality? You've fallen for multiple women? How? And it was a surprise to them. I knew that I'd fallen for three women. I started falling maybe a week prior to that point of telling them. I should have told them sooner, so it wasn't a shock all at once.

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ultimately the one responsible for all that had occurred. And once I was able to come to that point, I was able to have a sense of peace, but I had to do, I had to have people around me that I trusted give me that constructive criticism. And I think it's just so important for individuals to understand one that, you know, no one's perfect, but that doesn't make an excuse to take certain actions. But I think more than more than anything, people that struggle with mental health, people that might go through something like this, where they feel that everybody is turned against them, and they start to question who they are. The best thing you can do is have a conversation with those around you that you love because then you don't feel like you're alone. And I talked to a lot of

former cast, former bachelor, bachelorettes, and they shared their stories and it was a lot more similar than I realized. And that helped me calm myself down to realize you're not alone in this. They got through it. They're happy now. You will also be as well. So, you know, through sharing experiences, I think that's such a great thing. And I hope people can hear this message and realize that, hey, if I'm ever feeling alone, someone else out there is more likely feels the way I do. So I just need to start having these conversations. Well, I appreciate you saying that. I think there's a lot of truth behind what you said. Well, I appreciate you saying that. I think there's a lot of truth behind what you said. I have one more question before we bring Susie on. Rachel's dad was a focal point at AFR. He was obviously outspoken, and we certainly empathize and understand the love a father has for his

daughter when she's feeling hurt. But let's say you randomly ran in to Rachel's dad. You turn around, you're at Chipotle, you turn around, all of a sudden it's Rachel's dad. Yes, I'm at Chipotle. Well, you know, I hear you love Chipotle. Can we also ask what his order is specifically? Because we've heard some rumors about that. I heard it's north of $30. Hold on, let's focus on the question at hand.

You're in a line at Chipotle you turn around and Rachel's dad is behind you what do you say to Rachel's dad what do you do you ask him a question do you just say anything do you do you do you put a baseball cap on and sunglasses and run out the door what what would you do in that situation yeah you know what I'd probably let him get one good shot on me if he wanted to, uh, just shake it off and then shake his hand and say, let me, uh, let me buy you some Chipotle at the very least. And we can hopefully sit down and, uh, talk it out. Listen, I think he honestly, for what it was at AFR quote unquote went easy on me. I think he,

uh, I think he realized that, you know, I had, I was suffering a lot a lot. And he gave me grace. He really did. I was very impressed. And it wasn't that I was deserving of it by any means. But I think he took the high road. And I have a lot of respect for that because that's his daughter. And he had to watch his daughter hurt more than she's probably ever hurt. So for him to respond the way he did, which I thought was with class,

I can obviously understand he was frustrated, but he held it together. And at the very least, if I saw him in the last poll, I would love it. I would want to just shake his hand and say, listen, like, thank you for giving me grace. Let me, let me add to my order here real quick. And let's, let's sit down and see if you can crush two bowls faster. All right.

Also now what's your Chipotle order? Two bowls to go, two tortillas on the right, Otto, now what's your Chipotle order? What's the order? Two bowls to go, two tortillas on the side, white rice, extra white rice, extra fajita veggies, half chicken, half steak, pinto beans, corn, guac, lettuce, and two sides of vinaigrette. Because I'm telling you, you've got to put the vinaigrette on the bowl. Do you get cheese? You have.

People sleep on the vinaigrette. No bowl. Do you get cheese? You have. People sleep on the vinaigrette. No cheese. No cheese. I also don't get cheese. They do sleep on the vinaigrette. Because I do not get cheese and I love the vinaigrette. Clayton understands it. Yes. You have people.

It's like a hidden gem. People understand that vinaigrette is what makes the entire bowl. You pour that on top. Try it next time. It is incredible. What do you do with the tortilla? Do you bite the tortilla by itself? Do you put it in the tortilla? Yeah. Do you like dip? Yeah. With the tortilla? What do you do with the tortillas? No. So I basically stack up. So I

get extra rice, actually this, that, and the other. So the bowl basically probably can't even close with a lid to go. But it does, they sneak it all in there, but then I just take it out and I make my own burrito when I get back home. And so I eat the burrito and then I eat the rest with sometimes chips if I'm feeling a little crazy. Oh, hell yeah. Wok or salsa? This is the breaking news that people can rely on on this show. People are probably tired of hearing me talk about,

damn it, this guy just loves Chipotle and pizza. We get it. I'm a foodie. Unfortunately. Nothing wrong with a good appetite and being a future of habit. I am both of those. Chipotle's all faithful. Comfort food is a beautiful thing.

Found a lot of comfort in Chipotle. Is your wonderful girlfriend with you? Do you want to bring her on? Hi, Susan. I want to just use this time to just chat with you guys about the relationship, kind of get an update on your love.

I know you guys had that scandal a couple weeks ago that you were involved in, but I feel like you guys have since talked about it. So I don't know if we need to necessarily really go into that much detail unless you guys want to clarify anything other than the fact that like clayton doesn't know how to teleport or things like that or was there a takeaway have you have you had any communication with this person who who created this false story uh i feel like Susie was talking to her a decent amount because she didn't want her to do anything reckless.

And then Clayton was like, Susie, why are you talking to this woman? Yeah. What I guess, what I am most curious about, in addition to anything you want to add to it, is so much about relationships is how we get through adversity. You know, it's not as,

like the good is great, right? Like it's, oh, you want to have fun with your partner and you want to have a good time and you want to enjoy being around each other. But the true test of any relationship is what happens when you guys fight or what happens when you have a disagreement or what happens when you're just faced with adversity.

You know, thankfully for you guys, your relationship started with adversity. So there is that. But I am curious when something like this happens, it's very normal and understanding for people on both sides to get defensive, to even take it out their partner, even though there's nothing to take out. So how did you, what I'm really curious about is when this story came out, how did you hear about it? And what were conversations that you two had with each other about how you guys were going to approach this mess? That's what I'm most curious about.

So to be honest, the first thing I did was say, I didn't really read her message. She had sent me a message saying that she slept with Clayton the night before and I was working. saying that she slept with Clayton the night before and I was working. So I like briefly saw it and I've actually had that happen in a relationship before. So I was like, dang, like who's going to make this up? This is wild. But we are in a public relationship and there are a lot of people that, you know, might, I don't know, that just want to meddle and stuff. So I was like, okay, this is weird. My, my heart sunk though. I just, I didn't realize, that just want to meddle and stuff. So I was like, okay, this is weird. My heart sunk though. I didn't realize it said New York

because I just briefly looked at it. And I texted Clayton. I said, hey, like I'm working, but if this is true, just tell me and like, we'll figure this out privately. And he's like, of course it's not true. You had to face the internal fear that it still could be true.

I mean, i genuinely feel like clayton is one of the most genuine honest upfront people and like we both we both say that we're not the type of people that cheat neither of us ever have but we say god forbid if in a weird alternative universe it did happen like we would be the type of people that tell on ourselves to our partner because we like we're just super honest respect yeah so yeah I did initially get that feeling of like oh my gosh like because I didn't really look at the message that hard um and Clayton was like it absolutely didn't happen FaceTime me immediately literally in Arizona again I had just FaceTimed him the night before

and he's like yeah she's saying that I was in New York last night and I'm like oh okay like and then it it was immediately like okay there's just like not even this isn't even possible but even if we had if even if she was in New York I think or Arizona I'm sure we would have figured it out however but we basically decided to I trusted him let's approach this together. Let's not talk about it publicly. Yeah. Let's not give her attention. Cause at the time we're like, she's obviously just doing this for clout. So we were like, let's just not even acknowledge it. But then people really did start to question Clayton. And I was like, all right, let's post about it and be done with it. Didn't, we didn't ask too many questions or get too crazy about our stuff until after it was over and we I was like heading to Arizona and we like had these conversations and then in like the first five

hours of our road trip we were just like how do we handle this like we neither of us have had to navigate a public relationship before so it was weird and we we just weren't equipped to do to know how to handle it so it was super weird but we just had really equipped to do, to know how to handle it. So it was super weird, but we just had really open and honest conversations of like, this could happen again. Like what, what is our approach moving forward? It was, it was good for us to have those conversations. They were tough conversations, but we both just were really honest and decided the best we can do is like handle it together first and private and then figure out how we want to approach it to the world. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Did that person first, I know she issued like an apology, a public apology to like her followers or just people or to you in general.

like her followers or just people or to you in general, did you speak with her privately and did she apologize privately? And were you satisfied with that? Or were you just kind of like, you know what, I don't want anything to do with, do with this person and which would be also understandable. Yeah. Uh, when it pertaining to her apology, truthfully, I just want to move on. I didn't want to spend any more time on it. I was also talking to her privately and I was much more upset than Suzy was. And I was trying to warn her that I was like, hey, you don't want to go down this path because when people realize

that you're lying, they're going to come after you. i said you just i'm like you don't want this and she she kind of was just like oh whatever like you did what you did and i'm like okay like i'm just telling you this is going to backfire and i'm really trying to help you out because like i don't think you realize how many people are going to come raining down on you and and then that happened when she changed her tone and started and she started asking for she's like please tell him to stop and i said it's like delete your video like delete the video and issue an apology like that's all you can do at this point i said the quicker you do it the quicker that people will move on from this and she finally did it uh you know i mean did she learn a lesson i who i'll never, nor do I care to ask her.

I just hope that truthfully that nobody tries that again because we got the receipts ready from here on out. So I think it's just one of those things where I just looked at it like, let's move on. And Susie was great. Again, she continues to impress me with how she looks at things. Yeah, she was like, let's give her grace. And I'm like, what? I'm like, why? this girl brought this on herself and i'm over here getting again another thing that's coming up that's going to have people turn against me uh but she was like

listen like we don't you know clate she's like when it comes to mental health it's like everyone's mental health matters and right now like i can tell that she's struggling so let's not like have there be a worse outcome from this and I had to take a step back a deep breath and be like yeah okay like her mental health matters too even if she brought this on herself I would hate to see something worse come of this that makes a lot of sense I mean it's certainly big of both you to have that realization in the moment um because yeah I mean I would empathize with like you feel like you've taken some beatings clayton and then you're like another thing that i definitely didn't do and it can be

a challenge because i would i mean shoot i'd be frustrated because i mean i am curious she claims to have slept with this person whoever they were and while they maybe you look like him i mean didn't at what point did she not like look you know like wasn't it obvious or i'm just like she must have been so drunk yeah that it like she maybe didn't remember what he looked like and do we even know if he was like i'm clayton from the bachelor or did she come up with a up to him and say you look like clayton from the batch and he was like sure or if he really from The Bachelor or did she come up to him and say you look like Clayton from The Bachelor and he was like sure. Or if he really was just like, oh you don't watch the show

I was the last one on it and then she googled who was the last Bachelor. But she seemed, to your point she seemed pretty adamant even talking to you that she believed it was you which is kind of terrifying in a way. She was adamant. was yeah and and at first she was

yeah like your proof isn't proof and was laughing at me and yeah and i just that frustrated me of course i'm like okay like you want to play this game and you're defaming me and uh my character and i'm like my character has already been in question i said so you're now adding to this and again like that's where yeah i was like come on one more thing like can i just can i just like have a week of no bs like and again a lot of but this was a difference i don't want to compare this to like other previous because i i took actions previously that brought on a lot of the um you know the the negativity that was geared towards me. That again, like as I said earlier, I now understand it for what it is. But this was something where I'm like, I didn't do anything, okay?

Like I was sitting in my house. I was having a chill weekend before Susie showed up. I was just going to watch some TV. I was eating pizza and I was watching a documentary. The Kanye got documentary. I'm like, life's good. I'm just chilling. My girlfriend's about to show up here in a couple of days.

And then all of a sudden I go on the internet and I see it. I was like, life's good. I'm just chilling. My girlfriend's about to show up here in a couple of days. And then all of a sudden, I go on the internet. I see it. I was like, oh, my gosh. Who is this? And all of a sudden, there's all this speculation. I'm like, popcorn in hand, eating pizza. I can't wait to see who comes. This sucks, but I'm really intrigued in the story.

And all of a sudden, she goes, who is it? And I was like, it's Clayton. And I was like, oh, my gosh. No. Wait, so you heard about the story before you realized people were talking about you? Yeah. I popped up because people were tagging me. What did Matt James do? Well, that was the thing is they said that they said they were like, oh, this happened in, uh, this girl's from Miami or from New York. And I was like, and so the people started saying, Matt's from there. And I was like, Matt, I was like, no way. I was like, Matt's such

a good dude. There's no way. And I'm just like Matt. I was like, no way. I was like, Matt's such a good dude. There's no way. And I'm just like, but I'm like, this is crazy. And then they're like, give a name, give a name. And I was like, yeah, I was like kind of sitting there like, yeah, give a name. I'm also interested. Like, your ass is getting to me. And all of a sudden they said, Clayton. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. I was like, you really got to be kidding me.

Like, I did not. I'm not ready for this. It was like reality TV that he was watching on his phone. He was like, ooh, drama. What a meta moment. Yeah, I'm like refreshing by the phone. He was like, ooh, drama. What a meta moment. Yeah, I'm like refreshing by the minute. I was like, oh, man. This is juicy.

I'm watching the Kanye documentary. I got a little side drama. I'm like, I'm intrigued. I'm into this just to see who's going to be caught. And then all of a sudden it was like Clayton. I'm like, okay, well, this just completely soured the mood. And now I'm going to turn off this documentary. And then I saw people start tagging Suzy. And I was like, okay, well, Clayton'm going to turn off this documentary. And yeah, then I was, I saw people start tagging Susie and I was like, okay,

well, could they have to address this now because she's getting tagged by a hundred tags a minute or whatever it was. And then I realized, yeah, it shifted really quickly from like, you know, I put the popcorn down for the pizza way. And, and I started, you know, trying to figure out how I was going to find a way to prove my innocence. Well, it's i'm thankful and happy for you guys that it's uh there's water under the bridge now and and it sounds like if nothing else um in a way it brought you guys closer together because

it taught you guys how to handle uh adversity and in like that, you know, it kind of created more trust and, and not to like the way, you know, Susie communicated with you, Clayton, it sounds like it was a overall like, well, stressful, like a positive moment and kind of reassured the strength of that relationship that you guys have, which is, which is nice to see. Yeah. Ultimately, I think it forced us to have conversations that we probably wouldn't have had. So just a better understanding of each other and how to move forward in this environment. You guys are a very likable couple on social media.

Do you guys know that? Thank you. It's really, am I the only one who feels this way? Like Natalie and I were talking about, like Nellie was like, I don't know if it was yours, Susie, or Clayton's, but Nellie was like, you guys are, like Clayton and Susie are like very likable. I was like, I know. Yeah, Nick embarrassed me.

Nick did the most embarrassing thing when Susie was in studio. I'm sitting here staring at Susie and Nick out of nowhere goes, Ellie has the biggest crush on you, Susie. And I was like, my cover is blown. Do you have a, I wasn't trying to embarrass you. I was trying to make Susie feel good because it's always nice to, I mean, Susie, Susie was coming here at a time where. It was dark.

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DS01 Daily Symbiotic. That's seed.com slash V-I-A-L-L and use code V-I-A-L-L. Seriously, you guys are very, very likable. I'm curious, who't want to i don't want to assume it's just suzy but like where do you guys come up with this uh rather entertaining social media content you seem to want to you seem to embrace it clayton and have some fun with it uh do you guys have any behind the scenes moments of of when you guys are recording some of this stuff. And I don't think most people at first would think of you, Clayton, as someone who's really enjoying the TikTok trends and some of these things,

but you seem to be into it. What have you learned? And what are some things you guys are doing behind the scenes that make it so fun to do with one another? Suzy does a great job. She's the creative mind behind everything. And I realized really quickly that she loves doing TikTok. She loves just having fun.

And so for me, I realized that if I did the first TikTok, whatever, I can't remember what it was. It was in one of the happy couple weekend houses. And I just saw the excitement in her, in her eyes in her face and she was just she watched it I think probably the excitement in his face no but I'm saying like

she probably watched it like 10 times and I realized I'm like this is bringing so much joy to her which makes me happy so I started getting fall all the way into it and then I started having fun with it because I was like oh I get to dance and be a fool and we get to do it together and and it's really cool. I never really used to capture memories. I just have to go off of like the memories that were in my mind, but I didn't ever capture them through video or photo. And when she did that one, she captured all those moments from the four months that we

were in hiding. And I went back actually last week and watched that video again because I was like, this is so cool because it brings back so many memories. And I realized I was like, this is so much fun to capture these because 20 years from now, we'll have these videos and we can see it for what it was and not have to be like, well, I remember this way, you remember this way. But like we get to see it. And I think that's so cool. So I got on board really quickly. And we just like both giving each other trouble, making fools out of ourselves uh i like doing the voiceovers i think it's a challenge to me how

how close i can get it to look like i'm actually talk speaking and she finds them all and i just she's like clayton come over here i'm like so i sit down so we're doing a tiktok speaking of that collage you guys posted have you guys publicly addressed the uh choking shot of which people quickly picked up on yeah that was um i mean i wish i could say it's blushing for anyone who's not watching it's because his grandma saw it so it's a sensitive subject we talked about unfortunately yes exactly unfortunately we talked about it that photo in particular uh we said should we put this one in there and i was like this one of me and the one repeating and we put those two we like we sat before we posted she posted it we said should we put these in there and i was like we're like yeah you know it's it's funny it's

goofy it kind of encapsulates who we are uh Just two goofballs. But then all of a sudden, the reaction was kind of like, oh, gross. Why would you post this? And we're like, okay. So our humor we're finding out isn't always well received. But again, we're both unique with what we find funny. I think we have a similar humor. So we both were like, this is funny. people enjoy this or think it's stupid or just find it funny and it kind of was mixed i think my take on it it was just a matter of timing yeah probably you guys right after like right after the controversy and i guarantee you like if it was like well one if like if you didn't face controversy if you were like the if ever it was just like generally like adoring fans of the love people have been like oh this is so great they're like into it and like and if it was six months later and i think it had everything to do with uh people of having critics at the time and you gave critics something to criticize essentially totally yeah that's a good yeah yeah i think you're right

you hit the nail on the head with it uh it was definitely timing's everything and but do you like to be choked clayton in bed i guess is really the biggest thing we have to learn is that no no no it doesn't it doesn't happen sneak one in there no it doesn't happen okay it just doesn't happen. That's all I'm going to say on it. Again, safely. We don't kink shame on this show. We don't. We don't. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm not giving up

any more information on what happens. I really enjoy you being uncomfortable, Clayton. I don't know why. This will do it. Me too. This will do it to me. When it comes to speaking on these things i'm pretty private about it uh and that's why like even off the first night

limo entrances some of the women came up and said certain things that were semi-sexual and i was just like oh gosh and i just like laughed nervously i was like how do i how do i i don't know how to respond to this my mom watches this and so i always this is the one area that i don't typically get embarrassed by it much but this is it when it comes to like speaking on these topics yes it gets me but your entrance was if i'm remembering correctly on michelle's season getting spanked with a ruler i got spanked by a ruler all right that's just that's very it was you knew what you were doing oh my gosh that was very well and i think it's funny uh michelle was pretty hesitant with it as well i think she

was also like oh coming out the gate hot there big dog uh yeah that was a step down i think we just we just kicked it up in the full gear with our little pictures. So I've got to pull back the reins. I would love to hear from both of you. One thing that you feel like since dating one another, that your partner has helped you get out of your comfort zone and improve upon either an insecurity or weakness that you felt like you had. And as a result of dating the other person, you feel, you know, like a better person or more confident and less secure.

I'm curious for both of you to answer that question about one another. Clayton's very responsible and I'm not always the most responsible person. How so? Give us an example. I think I'm kind of carefree in my life. I am very adventurous. We are very different. We contrast in so many ways, but I'm the type of person that has gone all these different directions

and just always been like everything's gonna be fine like I just have this belief within me that like life is gonna be beautiful because I'm gonna choose that it's gonna be great like I'm gonna find the beauty in whatever it is but sometimes I think maybe I think that can that can fault me like I can find myself in situations where I'm like, oh, this isn't the best situation to be in. And Clayton is very responsible. And he's just a really, you think far ahead.

You've got way more long-term goals. I guess I have long-term goals as well, but they just look differently. And so I think he's really challenged me to like think further ahead and and be a little bit more responsible so i think that and i don't always like that push because i am very free dampen dampens your creativity i mean hold on i I'm saying like that's how it might feel but no it sounds like exactly that's how it might feel sometimes and I'm like in reality this is actually

good challenges for me even though I feel challenged and I'm like I don't know that I like this feeling but he definitely has he brings a lot to the table when it comes to like thinking ahead and you know smart decision making clayton yeah and that kind of parlays into um what she's taught me which is

to uh to challenge myself to go outside of my comfort zone and find myself in a place that is less structured i think i've always created structure around me wherever I can. I always had a safety net, all those things. And I often would just, yeah, I sometimes wouldn't push my limits all the way. Or I would maybe push it in one area, but I wouldn't be willing to jump and just take a leap of faith. And that's something that she's challenged me to do. You know, right now, I'm actually finally, for once in my life, chasing my true passions, which is, I want to

speak on men's mental health or mental health in general, truthfully, and I want to share my story and go talk to high schoolers, college kids, really whoever I can to just make an impact. an impact. And I also am starting to push out fitness, you know, educational resources to help people because I have body dysmorphia. And so I want to be able to create change that I, the same change that I saw myself, that I started to have more self-love. And so these are my really true, my true passions. Prior to this show, prior to this entire experience, I was working medical sales and it just wasn't my calling it wasn't what i was passionate about i was good at it but it wasn't it didn't like make me give me a renewed sense of purpose and suzy has continually pushed me to kind of say

okay hey there's no structure around you right now you don't have a seven traditional seven and seven to three nine to five uh job but just every day put in those, six to eight hours and whatever you're passionate at and do something and it'll end up coming to fruition. It's going to be a challenge. So overnight success doesn't happen overnight, but just put your head down and grind. And you'll see that again, she traveled the world. She did all of these things where she didn't have structure and she found peace in it and excitement. And she realized it was all going to be okay. Coming from from someone like me who's always been structured, I was like, oh my gosh, I haven't had a job for a traditional job for five months. I'm like, oh my gosh, my life's caving in on me. So she's given me that perspective. We've balanced each other out, I think.

As you can see, I feel one way where she's allowed me to become less structured. I've challenged her to be a little bit more structured, a little more punctual. That's great. I've challenged her to be a little bit more structured, a little more punctual. That's great. She likes to show up fashionably late a little bit. She likes to show up a little fashionably late. So I try to get her 15 minutes. By like a minute or two. Yeah, and I'm trying to get her the whole 15 minutes is on time.

You know, a mindset that I learned from football. I show up 15 minutes earlier on time. So I'm trying to get her into that mindset. I think it's just so we're both feeding off each other. That's great. I love to, I love to hear it. Have you talked much about having body dysmorphia, Clayton? I started to open up more about it. In fact, I had a really cool conversation. I was back with my friends in Missouri and I was out one night and there was a couple of friends of friends that were there. I started just telling my buddy what I wanted to do and the platform I wanted to utilize it for good. And I had a guy, one of the guys came over to me

and said, Hey, I just heard you talking about it. I was, and I wanted to sit close to you because I couldn't hear like what all you were saying, but he goes, I wanted to at least tell you that I think it's so cool that you're talking about this. He's like, because I have body dysmorphia. And he opened up to me and this is a guy that I didn't know that well. And he just said, you know, I have body dysmorphia and I wish more guys would talk about it because it is a struggle that i face but hearing you talk about it you know just makes me feel that i i also share something and i'm not alone in this regard so i've had a few of those power conference powerful conversations in north carolina i went and talked to a guy that he's creating an app for college athletes, just

former athletes for mental health resources. And he had lost three or four friends to suicide. So I'm starting to like for me having these conversations and realizing that if we can get this message out of just having one more conversation, just talking about the issues that plague us and make them make it more normal. You're not less of a man if you talk about these things. So I'm trying to push it out as much as possible and share my experiences. I talked about body dysmorphia on the show for one of the dates that we went on briefly,

but I think it's just a matter of continuing to talk about it. And, and I'm comfortable with that. I don't feel like I'm less of a man. I think you're more of a man if you can talk about these things, because I've looked at the research, just as many men suffer with body dysmorphia as women, is what a few articles that I read said. So it's more common than people seem to think. It wasn't really discussed much when it was on the show. I mean, there's so much going on.

I kind of glossed over. But like you said, I mean, I think it's something we talk about a lot in women communities, but I don't think we address as much in male communities and with men and being a former professional athlete. I think a lot of people assume that that's something you would never deal with. So I think you bring a lot of awareness. That's I think that's amazing. a lot of awareness. I think that's amazing. I'd love for you to just, in the spirit of bringing awareness, how did you realize that's something you suffer from? And what would you say to men who might be listening or women who are listening, who are in relationships with men, like warning signs that it might be something you struggle with and where to go for resources if you are

worried that you might have this thing that you're struggling with in terms of body dysmorphia? Yeah, when it comes to body dysmorphia, I think partners, what they should look out for is look to see how often your significant other is looking in the mirror. I think that's a big sign is every time they pass by they kind of stop and they take a look I do that a lot every mirror I look I pass if I'm shirtless I you know my the thing that I get bothered with is like my stomach area that's just something that I feel like just never just looks as defined as I want it to something that I do too I'm sure people probably can see it if they pay attention to it now when I'm out in public and I'm walking around, I pinch my stomach all the time. It's just like a habit. I just pinch areas of my body that I'm not happy with. It's

almost like to remind myself, is this like, do I feel like it's skinny today? Or is it feel fat? Am I pinching an inch or more? These are little things that I think you can pay attention to, to see if your partner is struggling with body dysmorphia because that's what I'm like unknowingly doing is I'm constantly reminding myself as I pinch my that part of my body that's like oh I wish I was less there and I think people that struggle with body dysmorphia at least from in my experience will always be thinking about it it'll come come up throughout the day. And here I am. I mean, I've, it doesn't matter. And even I had this conversation with my brother recently. He said, how do you sell body dysmorphia, dude? He's like, you're in great shape. And I took an in-body scan

and I was apparently 10% body fat, which is great. But like, I can't see that. And at the end of the day, it's like, no matter even if the numbers back up the fact that I'm not fat and I'm in good shape, uh, people with body dysmorphia, they just feel like they don't like the way they look. And so a significant other needs to just understand that like, Hey, this, this is their reality. This is how they view it. And I should just be mindful of that. Don't downplay them and say, Hey, like, I don't know why you're concerned about it because you're 10% body fat or you look great or whatever. Uh, that's I don't know why you're concerned about it because you're 10% body fat or you look great or whatever. That's great to remind you that you're significant. Hey, like you look great. You look incredible. I love the way you are. But just understand that again, for them, they're struggling

to try to overcome that and they can't see what everybody else sees. When I look in the mirror, when I look at pictures, I don't see what other people see. I see the things I don't want to see. So I would just say that, yeah, I mean, having the conversation with your significant other and not, yeah, understanding that this is something that men struggle with. So don't downplay them or belittle them or say like, you're a dude. Often it's like, guess what you people hear? It's like, this is a girl's problem. No, it's not.

I mean, the research shows it's just as many men nowadays. And that's due to social media. That's due to filters and guys that are airbrushing their abs on their Instagram. And I see that, and I'm like, man, I really wish I looked like that. But they don't. They're out there highlighting their photos or airbrushing or whatever they're doing, sharpening. It's just not reality. You see them in a video, and you're like, they don't look anything like their picture.

sharpening the, like, it's just not reality. You see them in a video and you're like, they don't look anything like their picture. So I think it's just being aware that it's becoming worse because of social media, but a long-winded explanation, just to say that there are little things you can look for. And yeah, looking in the mirror a lot, grabbing, pinching certain parts of your body, negative self-talk, saying, you know, I got to get in shape. I say that a lot. She's like, you're aren't, she's like, you are in shape, but making those little comments,

I think are warning signs that somebody might be struggling with it. Well, I really appreciate you, uh, uh, shedding some light on that. Um, again, a lot of people think, uh, don't talk about it enough and especially from a men's perspective. So, um, thank you for sharing that. And I think that was really informative. Yeah, thanks, man. Do you have any other questions? Amanda has a question. I just have like a kind of like fun one to end on,

which is just, would you guys be willing to share like an inside joke that is making you guys crack up right now? Okay, so there's this video of a guy who does like baby talk and it was like on TikTokiktok it was on tiktok and it's like the most horrible cringy like but hysterically funny thing and like he's like his girlfriend's like making hot chocolate and he's talking about like her milky wilkie and it's like i'm not doing the voice no but it's like just so you watch it and you cringe but you're like i need to watch this again and like i sent it to clayton and he was so uncomfortable and i think i reenacted it

he was so uncomfortable and he was like this is like it really made him uncomfortable like just overall and so i named this playlist on spotify like milky wilkie or like i don't know what i named it but it was my playlist for clayton and the fans found it and they were like what is this milky wilkie play like could this be it has like love songs on it and i was like i was so embarrassed because i was like if this is how we get found out because of my milky wilkie playlist on spot. I'm getting hot. Yeah, this was before Spoiler. Reddit, actually,

they were on it. They were looking at Spotify playlists and she made the playlist for me and I guess they just didn't pick up on it. They were kind of like, what is this playlist that was created? I'm like, if this is how we get found out. it's so embarrassing

yeah she well milky wilkie clayton with i forgot what to say it wasn't my name i'm with you clayton the biggest turnoff in the world is having your partner talk like a baby it's truly horrifying awful and i love it and i love that he hates it so of course i'm gonna do it she's like oh clayton wants some milky and i'm like oh my god it's so bad like i knew it irked him so bad and yeah but i but it's funny between us but i was like if this is how we get found out like i will be bad with the milky baddie's daddy with the milky she she called me zaddy and that's where we thought it would be, it would give giveaway. She's like, why would she name something Zaddy? Like Zaddy is for somebody that you date calling somebody Zaddy.

So we're like this, we're going to get found out over this and we're going to have to explain it. Yeah. Didn't pick up enough. Thank goodness. Well, thank you for that tea. That was a great question. Amanda, even better answer.

Now everyone's uncomfortable. Guys, thank you so much for coming on Clayton I really appreciate you and your vulnerability I think I speak for everyone listening I hope I do when I say I'm really excited to see that growth I think it's pretty evident just talking to you today versus last time and I think it's always nice to have grace for people. We're all unfinished products. We all have made mistakes. We have all had things we need to apologize and do better for it. And a big part of life is doing that and helping ourselves and our partners to help other people not make mistakes in the future. So I really appreciate you and your vulnerability, Clayton. And you guys are a wonderful couple. I'm rooting for you guys.

I think a lot of people are. You're fun to watch. It's a very endearing couple, and I enjoy your content. So keep on keeping on, and I'm hoping for nothing but the best for you guys. Thank you. Thanks for having us on. When you get, like, you're not engaged, right?

You're not engaged. I don't know. It's like The Bachelor, so you forget. You forget. You never know. You never know. You don't think I would know

if my crush was engaged? Open invite to, like, announce your proposal on this show. You probably won't. I understand. I will just go ahead and say I appreciate the offer offer but i know places that yeah when we get to that if you want to come on and get on one knee right here oh you have

i need you to get a grab a bunch of sands um throw it all the ground i need you to bring the ocean to your office and maybe that just... Okay, a beach proposal for Susie. Violent. Do you think it's going to happen in the next year or so? What's the relationship plan? No. We're not putting a timeline on it. When you do get

engaged, you'll do your Instagram post, but then come on the show and then walk us through what that moment was like i love how i'm just being like your stupid fucking instagram post you're saying that you're like go ahead and just post about post about it and get all the credit i've criticized you for laughing at me and i want the exclusive. Listen, Nick, I see your little sappy post from time to time. Don't act if you're not.

I love it. Yeah, hey. Shots are being fired. I have no apologies about my sappy, heartfelt post. And you shouldn't, because if you're happy, that's all. Everyone's happy for you. Thank you guys so much. You guys are a delight.

I appreciate it. And I look forward to your love story as it continues and coming back in the show to talk about it. All right, but before we let Clayton and Susie go, don't leave us because we have an amazing mediation call with my friends Matt King and Patricia Flack for a very relatable topic. It came up at Coachella.

And then I was like, ooh, would you guys come in for mediation? So we're going to say goodbye to Clayton and Susie. Thank you guys for coming. And up next, an amazing mediation call. Matt, Patricia, welcome. Thank you. It's our first in-studio mediation. I know.

I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much for being subjects and trusting us with your love life. Yeah, no, when we talked about this at Coachella... I don't even know how it came up at Coachella, but it was... You definitely kind of kicked back up the argument. And I don't know, I don't remember exactly how it came up. You definitely, I think,

teased me about who we were about to go see. Like, we were meeting up with friends, and you were like, oh... Here's the thing, when we're about to go into this topic of what we're talking about we're not going to say names okay no no names we may hint at who the person is and the audience can piece that together but you're not going to discover anything that juicy or good because it's not about the tea it's about the dynamic and how communication which is always

the goal of these mediations is how do we relate to couples couples who are in overall loving relationships but in every loving relationship we don't always see eye to eye we come from different points of view we we can trigger one another and we can you know plan each other's insecurities and then how do we work through it that's really the goal right and we have sorted this out over the past month or so so we're happy in this moment right now but we think that yeah there is a truth to um this issue that we came across and that i think it's worthy for every couple to hear and listen to because every couple can relate to it yeah and i gotta say when it came up at coachella there was a moment being a third party being like are they about to fight no no shit like i was like oh shit man like one of those like you know how sometimes in like public forums

like or baseball games or events and all of a sudden like a couple that starts getting into it because and yeah and it's not even like the fight but it's this argument where you need to pull in as many other people onto your side and share it out with the entire group you know like okay can you hear what she's getting mad at me about because i feel like i'm totally in the right about this and then same way with her and it's a very and i think it's a type of topic that uh people can understand both points of view so let's why don't you hop into it let's hop into it why don't you set the stage of how this even came to be? Okay.

Do you want me to set the stage first? Yes, you set it, babe. So it's one of my friends who I introduced to Matt. You know, he started off by being like, oh, I really love this person. She's so cool. I love her work, blah, blah, blah. Then it turned into like every single time we see her, all I wanted to do was talk to her. Every single time we would get home, all I wanted to do was talk to her every single time we would get home all i wanted to do was talk about her and then it got to where like you know when we're going out i was he would not

even like come speak to me he would only speak to her okay hold on now see now i'm already no no no no okay let me finish my side let me finish my side and then you can say yours rules of mediation we we give each other thank you the floor so it is is Patricia's floor. I can understand why Matt might be shifting. Because we're just coming out the gate so hot and I'm always like, no, that's not how I would preface it. You will have your opportunity. This is Patricia's POV. Yes, thank you.

And so then it got to where my friends kind of started noticing it and being like, okay, that's kind of weird. Matt only wants to sit there and talk to her. Doesn't even realize that you're in the room, whatever. Then it was like one night we were out only talking to her. And then all of a sudden he looks at her and goes, I'm in love with you. And I was like, what in the world? You can't just say that to somebody.

And then it was like, it was a week before my birthday. I think that that happened. And I was like, okay, that's my birthday i think that that happened and i was like okay that's really weird i don't like him saying may have a question yes up and up until this point have you said anything i told him that it makes me uncomfortable how he sits there and talks to her and doesn't give me any attention okay um and then like when you hear his side it all makes sense but i think it was a lack of miscommunication on and at this time when you were feeling this way because it's a totally relatable thing

to feel insecure about. I get it. What was your level of insecurity? Like, was it just like, hey, I don't, I'm not worried about anything going on, but I'm still uncomfortable. Or did you getting your head? Oh, I got in my head a hundred percent. You got in your head.

Cause then it was like my birthday and I didn't want to talk to him about it until after my birthday. Cause I was like, what if i talked to him about the situation and he really is like in love with her like emotionally i don't know like some sort of in love with her so i was like i'm gonna wait until after my birthday but then somebody kind of brought it up to him so we had the conversation before and why why did why did you i mean i get it was your birthday you don't want to ruin it Because I didn't want to ruin it if he was. You were legitimately, you thought, I'm going to wait because I'd rather have him pretend he's in love with me on my birthday. The floor is still yours.

Whenever I can come in, please let me know. I'm trying to understand her point of view. I got in my head 100% because my friend started noticing him speaking to her a lot. I just find it wild that like you subconsciously decided, not like that, if in fact he was in love with this person, you would rather pretend to still be in love with you on your birthday so you still enjoyed your birthday, which by the way, great time. I guess you can kind of say your side and then we'll

talk about the addressing. Okay. I want to give a little bit more clarification about who this friend is. This friend is another content creator who, yes, we met through Patricia. I was already a big fan of this person. You just admired her as an artist. Yes. I love the video

she puts out. I think she's insanely talented in the uh work that she does so yeah i'm a big fan so i'm out with friends one night and one of our friends comes up to me and she goes hey is it true that you're in love with so and so because i heard that patricia's really upset about it and a lot of people are that's how you first heard about this this is how i first heard that this was an issue and i'm like wait excuse me so you talked about it with your friends first because another friend heard well because all of them noticed it as well and so they kind of all but did they notice or did you say they noticed i didn't say a thing so a friend overheard me

at the bar talking with this girl and she's you know saying everything that's lining up for her in hollywood right now what she's like working on. And I said, you know what? So and so, I love you. I think you are so incredible. I'm a big fan and I'm rooting for you. Another friend heard that, that I said, I love you to her.

And then that got around that he really thought that I was saying to this girl that I love you. And this is my issue. You know, maybe I listen to armchair expert with Dax Shepard too much. When he has on a guest

and he's a big fan of them, he tells them he loves them. He even says to the point that like they're his soulmate, jokingly, just sharing enthusiasm and love for another creator out there. And that's when I said, I love you by no means.

You said I'm in love with you. Let's preface with that. I'm in love with you as a fan, as fan but really this person compared to you you think that i love them that much obviously i'm hamming it up the way we're talking right now and i'm giving you a hard time about it but i don't love her that like like that that much no i don't but but the point is, it's not the point because it bothered you. And you, I think we, like even, here's what, I have a question for you. Yes. At the point when Matt finally became aware of this, like, what is going on, when someone came up to you, you talked to Patricia.

How quickly did you feel confident in his, like, how quickly did you trust that your relationship was more than fine, that you were just kind of going down a rabbit hole? I will say, because I did mention, like, you know, a few weeks in after this happening, that it made me uncomfortable, that kind of, at first, in the conversation, it was kind of frustrating that he was literally like, I'm doing nothing but it was like you're not doing anything wrong but it's making me uncomfortable and that's what you're doing wrong i think probably like 20 minutes into the conversation we kind of figured it out so it seems like you made the mistake which i think a lot of people do in that situation is you got defensive rather than hearing me out well i guess to a certain degree right i mean we that's what

usually like when someone comes to you and says this makes me uncomfortable i think that it's a natural reaction to go well especially if you're like i in this situation from matt's point of view he's like what right like it came to matt it's such probably felt like out of left field like i'm in love with who? Like, no. Right. And I didn't feel like when I told you that I, like, that you doubted me, that you were like, I'm not buying this. Immediately, you know, you were pretty much like, okay, I get the miscommunication.

What frustrated me a lot more, though, was that it had gotten around to the entire group. No, it only got, it was only, it was only one person. entire group and it was this game it was only it was only one person oh because it was one of our friends who told another friend who told another friend exactly but it was just like three but it wasn't the entire friend group and that's what i was worried about it was enough though yeah i'm mad i would like even one person getting involved well that upset me too would be like because you you know you guys have a tight friend group right worry about this becoming a drama filled event with friends and then it's a whole nother layer of right what the fuck yeah so i guess though let's talk about the truth then can you say i love you to somebody in a non-romantical way towards a friend it's an it's a great question and to matt's point like it begs the question of like

when is it okay and at what point like and you mentioned what you said in love right now we're getting into like is that semantics versus like what is all what does it all mean and at the end of the day do do couples have the right to kind of say wait wait, time out. Like, I don't like that. I don't like this. And here's why I know sometimes I've made the mistake of, even though I've had a partner say like, if my partner was in your shoes and they came to me with a, this makes me feel uncomfortable. I made the mistake of making it feel like it was their fault for feeling the way they did because I was like, but I'm not doing anything wrong. And if I admit that I'm doing something wrong, then that makes it my fault. And I know I don't love this person type of thing.

Right. right? As opposed to just like hearing them out and just trying to figure out, okay, well, right or wrong, why do you feel this way? And how do I stop you from feeling this way? As opposed to getting defensive. Exactly. And that was a big thing that I straight up had to own up is that it's not me in my place to be like, I have to immediately get defensive. I think I'm right. She's completely valid in her feeling that way. Absolutely. And so I had to do a big check within myself and go, I get how that was inappropriate and

how using it and phrasing it and even showing that much attention towards someone who I'm a fan of while I'm in a very serious relationship with can get complicated and to be a little bit more mindful and aware of that. And even now having this conversation beforehand, our trust has been strengthened, if that makes sense. Yes. And I think for me too, I think you kind of, when I first brought it up to you, you kind of were just like, what do you mean? That's just a friend of mine of mine like whatever and so you just kept doing it because you thought there was nothing wrong yeah i thought i was in a safe space it would be the same way though like you love harry styles if you if harry styles was in the room and you were

talking to him well i don't yeah maybe because harry styles is a big megastar i guess i'm trying to think about if it was someone on a i don don't know, a lower, more casual scale that you would be friends with somebody. The thing is you had access to this person you were once a fan of. Yes. And now that you had access to them. But let's assume that like, and by the way, full on Team Harry Styles stand ever since seeing him with you. If Patricia came to the show and was like, so I slept with Harry Styles and I could be like, acceptable. Done. Whatever works.

Yeah, I'd be like, yeah. That's okay. A media hall pass. No, he's like all my, he's also the top of my hall pass list. But if, let's say, Patricia got access to him, it's not that out of control. You know, like,

you're a public figure. You live in LA. You know other musicians. It's not the craziest thing that maybe Patricia could find herself in a room with Harry Styles. Yeah. And, and I guess the question is like, would that, could that trigger an insecurity? And I will say like back to this whole thing, I think with the insecurity, it would be like, he would say things about her like, oh, only she could read this book or she definitely could do this and it was like okay but i can't and so that's like i wouldn't i don't think no i would

not i would know i would not say she is the only person who could read that book there are tons of people who could read that book i think she can read that book and if you know what the book infinite justice it's by david foster wallace it's a hell of a book to read i already know i can't read it yeah i don't even know what it is i've been struggling to read it for years and she expressed interest in reading it this girl and i go she could read it i didn't say she's the only one who could read it so i guess that's why i'm upset it's because like i didn't say that that's what i'm saying i perceived it in the wrong way i'm with mad on this one. That's definitely not how you said it.

I know. That's why I'm like, I wouldn't have said it like that. Right. Right. But it's interesting though. That's how you heard it. I think this is really... Maybe that's how I wanted to hear it. I mean, I think... I mean in a weird way. This is the

relatable shit that in relationships comes down like we always hear words matter like we've heard that more than ever before with on so many levels but in relationships there are plenty of times where I'm a stickler for like what you said and I'm like I did I wouldn't I didn't what what like words matter but context matters so I like, even if you didn't say it like that, if you were going into that situation, having already these thoughts and these doubts and other people noticing it, you're already on a very like thin, thin ice with this girl. You know what I mean? Any, anytime she's being brought up, you're going to bring all of that back.

Right. And I feel like sometimes that's the difference between girls and guys. Like we're like back in May of 2019, you said that she liked purple. And guys are like, what? Did I really? We have all the data. I do sometimes feel like, and I don't want to be generalizing at all, but sometimes in the relationships I've had, I'll generalize that much. It's this where when it's like you said, where someone I'm in a relationship with might say, and then you said, they might throw in a word or two for color,

I suppose. And it feels like, and maybe because I'm a literal guy, when we're talking about what I said, I would request that you actually say what I said without any color. Right. Because that matters and so when like the words like always or ever or never uh only only yes yeah those those are so significant yeah um you take it from one level to next next. But it is interesting that it can feel,

but if I'm being honest, I feel like I've also, when I feel insecure, I have probably added color to my truth as well because it's how it felt. I always say no one reads text how you sent it. They read it how they're feeling in the moment. That's very true. And that's easy for people to be like yeah totally but even when we are arguing with our partner like we don't hear what like how they are feeling we hear from how we are like what does it say about us that you're saying right so like what i find most interesting about the moment that just happened is that like patricia wasn't even like trying to accuse you of anything

but it felt accusatory where it's like i didn't fucking say that i know and i think it's but you know what i relate to you so much in that moment and i love the theatrics like if we were having this conversation like privately like i'd be like okay i can hear what you're saying but i know that you're just you're saying that because that's how you feel and i think i'm you know we're on a whole set right now and i feel like i'm on live news where i'm just like hold on babe that's not what we talked about and that's not really what happened and so i get like nervous and vulnerable because we're in this type of environment. But I think though, it just comes down to like, I get how she's feeling and I completely understand it.

We all have like different interests that we find other people who have those interests in, not in us in a relationship. We're not always going to be interested in the same topics. And that's totally okay. You love sports. I don't watch sports at all. I'm interested into, I'm interested in. I'm interested in movies and stuff. And sometimes I'll find myself talking with someone who has that shared interest.

And I'll geek out about it. And that's okay that just because I'm talking about a certain subject with somebody else doesn't mean that I'm, I don't know. Do you get where you're saying well what you're saying well part of it is what you're dealing with is the fact that you mentioned patricia like sports and you don't now generally speaking that's against the grain so to speak like i'm a huge sports fan and i have a plenty of guy friends to geek out about my fandom with sports and some of your interests, Matt, seem to align with things that either women are creators of or just enjoy talking to,

which it just creates a dynamic in your guys' relationship that could just be a triggering event. It just triggers an insecurity potentially. I don't care how confident you are, and I'm a pretty confident guy who's very secure in my relationship but like at a certain point you know like if i saw nally talking to like i guess any guy you know something nally and i will joke we'll joke about but there's always a level of truth in like every joke which is like if we're interacting with like other people like natalie's been like really getting into her fitness and working out a lot so she has all these male

trainers and i always kind of was like so what's he look like uh like what do you think his interest in you is yeah but it's like i'm trying to determine what the risk factors are, which are kind of silly because I trust her. Right. And whatever he looks like or whatever his interest in her should be irrelevant.

And ultimately, is irrelevant. Nevertheless, I find myself asking questions like that. And she does the same thing. And it's just like such a hard balance in

a relationship to still be able to like have these conversations. Cause ultimately what these conversations mean is we're not always as confident about our relationships as much as we'd like to think we are. And ultimately maybe our overall, but like, it is okay for us to like feel insecure without making the other person feel like they're doing something overall wrong. Right. Because just because you say, hey, babe, that bothers me. And can you be more mindful of this going forward? How do y'all, what do y'all think about this? I feel like I haven't looked you guys in the eye because I've been just like nervous this entire time.

Well, I was just curious for you Patricia like conversely what are some things that he does when you're both out that make you feel very like cared for or seen or like he's being attentive like what does it look like when it's going well just coming up and talking to me or just checking in basically like I don't need him by my side the entire time just like acknowledging that I'm his girlfriend I guess totally because you every other time you do in Matt's mind he could be thinking well if I'm being like factual here I know I talk to her 20% of the night which by anyone's definition is not the majority and certainly not only but you could be thinking you talk to her way more than anyone else which is also could be true because the rest of time he just kind of

floated around the room and he seemed to be the most invested in that conversation and for matt's thinking because i'm a fucking fan of the shit she does and you're wondering but why you know okay that night i'm talking about we were on a party bus you never even once knew that i was even on it you sat next to her the entire time then we get i don't like moving around on party buses i'm sorry i don't like moving around on party buses it's a safety hazard sit in your spot and enjoy it i it i don't like it there's all there's drinks and stuff people moving around i've known people who've broken ankles on party buses happen to be sitting across so and so and we were just chatting and it's loud you know i can't like have a conversation with everybody

else party bus to straight just to talking to her straight to the next bar to talking to her from my point of view maybe from your point of view there are some times that i went to the bathroom you were talking to somebody else but anytime i laid eyes on you you were talking to her from my point of view. Maybe from your point of view, there are some times that I went to the bathroom, you were talking to somebody else. But anytime I laid eyes on you, you were talking to her. Babe, I hear you out completely, but that's not the case at all.

Like, I don't text this person that much in deep conversations behind your back. We don't see this person that often. Wait, what do you mean by behind your back? Because it's like... Meaning like if I'm not like hiding, like the conversations are continuing when we're not in person anymore.

None of that's happening. It's just at a party we're catching up and it's someone I'm a fan of. And if there was someone else who you were a fan of and you wanted to talk to them, I'd be, go for it. I want that for you. And I didn't even realize

that he was a fan of her beforehand either. So there's that. Oh, that was the first thing when I first met them. And I said, when I first met them, I go, I'm a huge fan, huge fan. One of the first things I said, and I should have told you how much of a fan I was of this person before. And I didn't. And I apologize. It's okay. I apologize for accusing you. I know, but it's just funny because it's not how I feel at all. And the only reason why I'm getting nervous is because we're repicking this back up and we're sharing it with the world. And it's just hilarious that you actually, at moments, thought I really did love this person because that's not the case. The only person I'm in love with is you.

And I mean that from the bottom of my heart and i and i hope that you don't have um that type of insecurity in me as we continue to move forward uh in life together because well i think that's key is to always be communicating with each other absolutely and i will be and we still do that like i'm so happy that we did have this argument though and we did have this issue because it clarified a lot between us and it made our relationship stronger you know well you're sure because ideally it poked i assume correct me if i'm wrong that it poked holes in ways that you had been communicating poked holes in ways that you had been communicating right which I think every I mean this happens all the time I like you know you when things are going well in relationships it's just like hey

we're great we haven't fought or right we're good but in the moment of of things going well sometimes that could just be a product of like of conflict not presenting itself and when conflict doesn't present itself you don't really require certain tools to get over those things and sometimes it's only until conflict comes up that's why your first fight's always like really i think scary in a relationship because you're like wait now i have to like utilize like tools that I never used here and what does that mean and how are we going to talk and so this situation obviously like poked holes in how you guys had been communicating because you hadn't needed to think about these things right and it didn't mean that Matt was in love with someone and it didn't mean that you are actually worried but it made you

realize that there is a world in which i can feel insecure because i i need more from my partner from a communication standpoint or to be more present i don't like i was like i can be aloof and in my thoughts and and and like not self aware, like as much as I really try to be self aware, but like not my, sometimes I struggle with really like being present. Right. And part of it is because when I'm my most present, I feel really exposed and vulnerable.

Yeah. Because I, I, I feel like I, if I really enjoy myself, then like, and not that I'm worried, like but it's just like what if I say or do something I shouldn't say or do and so like I'm just an overthinker that way right but

sometimes when I'm like enjoying friends or like in an unhealthy relationship I had in the past it would be like you know shit like this where it's just like well why were you talking them for so long or x y and z and you're And you're thinking, wait, did I do some, what did I do something wrong? I didn't realize because my intention wasn't, and we're talking like intention is so like important. And so, yeah, I can see how this could be a net positive, even though it's a sensitive issue. So my question to both of you is what did you guys talk about in terms of like, how would you guys communicate this differently, both of you, to avoid something like this happening in the future?

Because like this situation almost certainly will come up again. I think first off, like giving each other the benefit of the doubt. Absolutely. Is like key. And then also just like, you know, after having the doubt absolutely like key and then also just like you know after having the first conversation is also like trusting the entire like the relationship as a whole unless it gets to a point where like you need to say something you immediately I feel like I would immediately raise my concerns to you instead of just holding it in because I feel

like I'm a type of person that like just keeps everything in instead of like really talking about it so i think in the future just like benefit of the doubt and then also being open and honest and trusting of my partner i have a question for you uh i don't know your relationship history oh i hadn't dated anybody since i was in high school oh so this is your first serious relationship i would say so yeah interesting, and I think sometimes though, that does echo into our relationship at times. And there's nothing wrong with not having had a previous relationship, but there are some hurdles

that I've been through in the past, and then we get to it, and I'm like, oh, we gotta work through some things, because I guess, I don't know, there's just moments in relationships that happen that if it's your first time it may be tough to deal with i get exactly what you're worried about but also too because like you dated yeah but there's a difference between dating and being in a relationship that scratches the surface of something that is just based off of like

that's the problem with relationships is that we have high expectations of them and put so much trust in people and it's very scary to feel truly vulnerable yes like I actually kind of had this like moment at Coachella where I was like just thinking about my relationship and like as someone who's had multiple partners and multiple breakups and heartbreak and just disappointment, there's a part of me that has learned to like move on from things. But there's a, there's a, probably a wall there that I have. And the more my relationship with Natalie progresses, like if Natalie breaks up with me today, like I know I'll be okay.

Right. I know that. But I also recognize that I've become closer and closer with her that while I'm sure in the big picture might be okay, that I won't be okay right away. And I'll probably be worried that I won't get over it right and that's a that's a scary uh to feel and I think that's not something when you don't really you can't prepare for that feeling until you're in a relationship and the first time you feel it really it's like it's you're very good at this Nick you're very good at this, Nick. You're very good at this. No, you're just... Because when you were saying that, I spent all day thinking about it.

I know, I know. I guess like we, I hardly like sit here and like talk about just relationships and like, I don't know, maturity and growth and all of it.

And you're just, you're very good and you're very well spoken about it. So it's interesting being in like this seat having to like reflect about it. Thank you for trusting me. I will say in the beginning

of our relationship, it was definitely both of us having to break down walls because he came out of a very bad of our relationship, it was definitely both of us having to break down walls because he came out of a very bad past relationship. And there were walls that you were having to break and also me not understanding why you had to, why you were still getting over this person. Well, that's why I asked the question

because I was wondering if the way you felt this way was triggered by like a past boyfriend, but quite the opposite. Right. And it was more just like, why are you having to get over this person still while we were in a healthy good relationship because i've never been through a heartbreak like that that he went through as well as like doing like during this i'm like why am i feeling insecure about yeah this when i know that and sometimes we always thought like oh well, let's talk about these things.

When we start dating, it's just like, oh, well, you had a bad breakup. You haven't had a serious relationship. So what does that mean? And then you talk about it. You're like, oh, we got it covered. Right. But you often don't really know how it's going to feel

until it happens. Right. Until you have the feeling that is a result of whatever paths that you do have and then it feels a little like what the fuck? Uncharted grounds or uncharted waters. It can be a scary vulnerable moment

as a result. I feel like in a very vulnerable place where I don't know. It's not easy to talk about i know i don't know we appreciate it i just felt feel insecure a little naked a little naked i mean clearly we're looking at a relationship where two people love each other and and care about how the other person feels and it just i relate to you on this a lot matt because the little bit I do know about you, you care about the people you love and put a lot of effort into it. So when you feel like you're disappointing your partner in a way, whether you did it for – it's so easy to feel defensive.

And you want to get credit for how much the work you put in to trying to make your partner happy i i i feel that a lot i don't know if that's a guy thing or just that's just how i feel and matt relates but um it's just very easy to get defenses which i think is the key in the biggest takeaway of this of this conversation is that our our getting defensive is something we have to be mindful of because you can put in a ton of effort and work and love our partner and still, your partner still is allowed to say, this bothered me or I didn't like that you do that.

And then the partner doing that, I think needs to be careful just about the color they add. Knowing that you're talking to someone who puts a lot of effort in your relationship. Because it just like... And it makes

it seem like I'm doubting him or it's kind of rude. Well, a little bit. It's human. We like to end these segments with saying something that we love about our partners and how they make us feel. Always ending on a good note. So whoever

wants to start is welcome to. I'll go first because he's always better at this. I love the way you love all my friends and also love to be with me at all times. I love the way we just love to to be with me at all times and just um i love the way we just love to do fun things together at all times love the way you always love me love my family yeah well i what i love about you patricia is how much constant joy you have every single day

there is nobody i know who probably smiles more than her throughout a single day and i love how um infectious that is you make my days so much brighter I love how kind you are to strangers like you there's no one else who is nicer to anybody than you and then I love how much you love your family I love all of your values your top values of your life you hold near and dear to your heart i admire your faith and i admire um how much you care for your friends too you're there for every single one of them and you help them no matter what you're like one of the least selfish people i know thank you completely capable

of loving anyone more than he loves you with all those things absolutely this has been great guys i really appreciate it has been great it's been a fun ride that's for sure but um no i'm glad that we like brought this out because i like helping other people um who are going through this um similar thing in our situation didn't know it'd be as deep as this got to but nick you're very good at this you're very good thank you for having us on thanks and we got to do a game night soon. Yes. Yeah. I'd love that. I really appreciate it, guys. Thank you. We appreciate it.

And thank you guys for being here, too. It was a lot of fun. This might be collectively one of my favorite episodes we've ever done with Clayton, Suzy, and Matt, and Patricia. And it's only eight hours long. That's it. Thank you. Thanks for listening, guys.

Thank you to Matt and Patricia. Thank you to Clayton and Susie thank you to Kale Lowry for yesterday's show go back and check out our Ask Nick episodes if you like this relationship shit

maybe you're turning in to listen to Matt and Patricia you're not that familiar with our show we talk a lot about this stuff on Mondays and we have these

mediation calls on every Going Deeper episode which this is what you're listening to subscribe rate, review all that fun stuff join us next week and we have these mediation calls on every Going Deeper episode, which this is what you're listening to. Subscribe, rate, review, all that fun stuff. Join us next week on Tuesday with Morgan Epsher as we freestyle it with your latest and greatest. We'll probably talk about the Johnny Depp

and never heard of it all, any updates. And then Ellie Zeiler on Wednesday for Going Deeper. Thanks for listening, guys. Have a great week.