The Viall Files - E419 Amber & Johnny: Body Language Expert & Therapist plus Natalie Joy!

Episode Date: May 10, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelor Gossip Edition! Today we are joined by Natalie Joy to help us dive deep and tackle the latest on the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp trial, bringing on psychologist, Dr. Kirk Honda, as well as body language expert, Janine Driver. After recapping the emotional testimonies, the inconsistencies in the narratives, and the allegations of using drugs in the courtroom and posing for photos, we bring in the experts to answer all of your burning questions. We first bring on Dr. Kirk to get his reactions to what's happening in this case, how two doctors could land on different diagnoses, and what people should do when stuck in traumatic situations without access to therapy. After that we bring on Janine Driver who is a body language expert with a focus. She dives into how being theatrical can be part of your baseline, how the structure of a story can tell if you’re lying or not, and the massive amount of damage to your credibility that happens when you decide to fake cry. We then recap the information that we’ve learned and talk about why people want to side with Amber, and how people should believe women, regardless of how this specific case ends.  “Typically truthful people convey information, liars try to convince us.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Rakuten: Start all your shopping trips at http://www.Rakuten.com or get the Rakuten app to start saving today. Earnest: Earnest is offering our listeners a $100 cash bonus. Refinance your student debt at http://www.Earnest.com/VIALL. Not available in all states. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @psychologyinseattle @janinedriver @bodylanguageinstitute If you are experiencing domestic violence, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233, or go to thehotline.org. All calls are toll-free and confidential. The hotline is available 24/7 in more than 170 languages. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the vile files freestyle edition i'm your host nick joined by ali and amanda and boy do we have an amazing episode today our guest is none other than my wonderful perfect amazing and splendid girlfriend natalie joy how are you hello i'm good how are y'all wonderful we have jam-packed episode probably somewhere we probably teased that pita my former dancing with the stars partner was going to be a guest on this episode pita couldn't join us she had to go to australia for personal reasons so i am the second option no baby like you're always the first option you're always there and i only wanted to bring that up because i know

some people are like but you mentioned pita she'll pita will be on she's excited to come on but we are happy thrilled blessed to have you as well also joining us this episode i'm really excited about um two people we have the body language expert uh janine Driver, is going to be with us. Janine has been in court for the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial. I don't know if she's been there every day, but she has been there many days observing the body language of both Johnny Depp and Amber Heard, maybe some other people. I don't know. It was Natalie a few weeks

ago who said, you should get a body language expert on your podcast. And then it was my producer Shanti who said, how about we get the body language expert from the person who's in court? I have a great team around me. I'm truly blessed. So she will be joining us to get her thoughts then we also have dr kirk honda with us a psychologist out of seattle uh we wanted uh we had many of our listeners suggest dr kirk last week we had dr darcy uh with us and and many of you had uh like thoughts on dr. Darcy. She had a spirited take on, well, on many things, it seemed like. And we wanted to bring Dr. Kurt on to, well, just give us his thoughts on the trial itself. I also wanted to get his thoughts on things Dr. Darcy said. Interestingly enough, like, I personally understood a lot of the things that she was

saying. I think as a host, I wish I would have asked a follow-up question in terms of, I hear what you're saying, but what would you say to people who might think your takes are a bit, maybe lack empathy for people who they're like, you know, kind of for therapy or et cetera, et cetera. Some people thought that it felt a little victim blaming in terms of the rhetoric she was talking about. And I think it brings up an interesting point, something I want to talk to Dr. Kurt about is we talk a lot about accountability on this show of, of controlling a, what of controlling what you can control, right? Dr. Darcy talked a lot about accountability on this show of controlling what you can control, right? Dr. Darcy talked a lot about, hey, listen, if we experience trauma at some point in our life, we have to get the therapy and do the work so that we're not basically taking that trauma and passing it on to others.

But what does that have to do? Like, where do you draw the line between, I'm curious how Dr. Kurt holds his patients accountable, right? At the same time while showing empathy for something they might have experienced, right? How does he deal with trying to enforce and set boundaries with his patients and help them hold themselves accountable

while not making them feel like it's their fault for anything they've experienced or victim blaming. And I think that's something that you see a lot on the internet between, you know, two different kind of groups of people, you know, saying, oh, do the work and the other people saying, oh, that's victim blaming. You know, is there a middle ground? Can two things be true at the same time in terms of, yes, you you can hold people accountable but that doesn't necessarily well that or that doesn't mean in any way that you're blaming them for trauma they might have experienced from someone else so i think that's an interesting discussion but before they call in let's talk about because

this trial uh we've all talked about it a lot natalie is i think watched every minute of the court uh of the trial of the court and we haven't really discussed since amber heard has taking has taken the stand and now they have like 10 weeks off before johnny depp's team can cross-examine which i I think a lot of people are anticipating. But since Amber Heard has taken the stand, there's been new information, certainly provided by Amber and her team, that is, from at least her side, very graphic and detailed about the alleged abuse that she is claiming Johnny committed on her. And it seems like from what we are seeing that a lot of people are struggling to believe Amber still. At the same time, there seems to be a growing sentiment of people who also seem to have a fear of what does it mean if we don't believe Amber Heard? And I think as it relates to believing victims,

and I think there's a lot of conversations around that, but it does seem like we are struggling to, I think as we watch, I'm curious what everyone in this room thinks, but it's like when Natalie and I are watching it, it's like, I think we find ourselves trying to give Amber Heard the benefit of the doubt the same way, like I think we find ourselves trying to give amber heard the benefit of the doubt the same way like we i think we're trying to objectively watch it because uh you know everyone's talked

about how like charming johnny depp can be on the stand and people are also talking about amber heard like demeanor on the stand and that necessarily doesn't make someone uh more or less uh true truth truthful but it does affect how we perceive them on whether we find them to be trustworthy or not right but that you know what i'm saying and i think there people are struggling with with comparing that those two things totally and i also think the fact that we started with johnny depp's testimony means that there's like the element of like confirmation bias of looking for information that's already going to prove this opinion that's pre-cemented and so it's i i don't

know i've been thinking a lot about like if she had gone first and shared this kind of testimony would i have taken his testimony with a much larger grain of salt than I did at first. I've thought about that too. That must matter on some level. There's also the, and I'm curious what you ladies think, before Amber Heard got on the stand, her team, once again, I think prior to this case even starting, her team tried to get this thrown out. Which is just standard practice from what i understand i guess yeah except it didn't johnny depp's team seemed to want this to go to trial they fought for it to go to trial and they fought for it to continue

to keep going and i think the question people are submitting is it's it seemed like there's tapes out there of john Johnny pleading with Amber to like figure out a different way of doing this. It's like, he didn't want to necessarily go to trial, but he knew what it meant. He knew they would both look bad, but it seemed like if,

if forced to, he'd rather have people know all these other terrible things that he said that are in text that are gross and and problematic and arguably abusive towards her verbally it's but he seemed to at least from what he believes that he would rather all that be out there but he doesn't want people to think that he is physically abusive towards her and once again her team right before she took the stand tried to get this thrown out and it does it beg the question of wouldn't she want an opportunity after johnny's team laid out all this evidence to suggest that she was the

abuser in this situation and before she came out to say this happened to me this you know the very graphic things with wine bottles and and accusations of punching and for physical altercations you know do we care that she didn't want an opportunity to express this or or maybe that makes sense because as a victim it would be too hard to to talk about that do and like and people are having conversations about that what do all of you think about them trying to the ambers team trying to throw the case out and does that influence your feelings on on on things i mean i think they're just doing their job. I mean, I don't think that that necessarily

means that she's right or wrong. I do agree with her not wanting to quote-unquote relive any situations by having to explain them thoroughly. But I also think that she is terrified to get cross-examined. When she's explaining, trying to explain things that Johnny has done or said, and it's like she gets lost in what she's saying and it doesn't really make

sense. So then she'll say, he wasn't making any sense. And she kind of blames it on him being like drunk or blackout and the story didn't make sense, not the way she was explaining it didn't make sense. Yeah, she does it a lot where she kind of is talking and talking and it's almost like she gets this thought of maybe this doesn't make sense. And then her response seems to always be, I don't know, he never made sense. Well, and even the question, we watched a clip of it when they were asking about the drugs or I forget what it was exactly. I think it was MDMA. Okay. And they're asking,

you know, like, what was your involvement in this? Or I don't know. First they asked, like, did you ever solicit it from John? Yeah. And I felt like she would have seemed so much more trustworthy and honest if she would have been like absolutely not or just like just give like one statement but instead it was this whole kind of like uh what are you talking about that would have just been like a surefire like it's everywhere yeah well she first on the stand said that she never has nor ever she ever would she ever do this drug with Johnny because that would be asking for trouble. I think I'm paraphrasing her words, but she essentially said that. And my understanding is later on the stand, she admitted to doing this drug once with Johnny.

Now, people can forget. Yeah, it is hard because you don't want whether it's you know despite like what her diagnosis is or like you know if she if she is a survivor of abuse it's like so tricky because it's this fine line of well i don't want to pull apart or critique you if it is something that you're like struggling with or like if this is a side effect of your diagnosis it's just like very hard everyone has their own everyone i think who has been a victim has their own way of getting through it. And as I've been in a IPV relationship myself, and I remember every single detail of every physical altercation we've ever had. And I feel like when Amber gets talking about it,

she will say like, he slapped me across the face and then I turned to him. And then I was looking at the carpet and it's like, well, how did that happen? That doesn't make any sense. You're explaining things that just don't correlate with how it would actually happen. And I think that's where she loses me.

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535 Mission Street, San Francisco, California 94105. visit earnest.com slash licenses for full list of licenses that's why i'm really uh curious to have janine the body language expert on because i as someone who like has an unpleasant like resting face at times you know like i i'm very like cautious and reluctant to say the oh the the person who looks the most truthful or the most charming person is the one telling the truth. I think we are very quick to think that we are body language experts and start deciding we know who's telling the truth based off things that we see. And I'm really curious about that because Johnny Depp is coming across as more likable and more charming than amber heard but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's truthful and she's not i think we but when it comes to the stuff the evidence we're seeing i mean the big thing i'm struggling with and i know you talked about this natalie too is this like the

physical evidence that has been presented to us i i suppose like this the tapes of her admitting to hitting him and things like that and and there doesn't seem to be the equivalent because she has talked about some incredibly graphic accusations towards johnny depp and she's talked about witnesses being there she also the her doctor when her doctor was on the stand um when she was being cross-examined i don't remember the exact dialogue but basically when amber was disclosing the um sexual violence to either her therapist at the time or to this doctor she was calling it just like angry sex like we were having angry sex and then this doctor who was on the stand was like well you know that is sexual violence like if you didn't want it and then i feel like she kind of maybe that light

bulb went off in her head is like oh which is very common like I feel like that happens a lot with women angry sex note of like sometimes you don't realize like I like because of like experiences I've had and then talking to my friends about them like I had a girlfriend in college who was like oh I didn't realize that that was like non-consensual sex until you told me about yours like it's like sometimes it's like you need someone else to point it out to you I don't realize that that was like non-consensual sex until you told me about yours. Like it's like sometimes it's like you need someone else to point it out to you. I don't know. Yeah. It's a devil's advocate.

Yeah. I know totally what you mean. Yeah. Like after the fact, it's not until you're recounting it and like recontextualizing it that you're like, wait, what? Because I do think, yeah, it's so complicated because I'm sure some people have very different experiences than this. because I'm sure some people have very different experiences than this but I think for some situations especially ones where it's like more of um it's less like physically manipulative and

more like emotionally manipulative as well like there is the experience of in your mindset at the time is kind of trying to go along with it and or trying to like make sense of it and being like and especially if this is someone that you trust or someone like in any capacity you're not necessarily primed to see them as a perpetrator of violence but then when you like pause are out of that given context where this person is not in front of you anymore you're like wait that was really messed up yeah sometimes that light bulb will go off there has been some footage of her saying that like when they were in these fights to like get him to not leave she would like try to have sex with him yeah and it's not also with the histrionic personality disorder doesn't that align with like a symptom of that yeah yeah yeah so it is and i think the

most interesting part again is it's johnny's doctor who said she has this and she is demonstrating again we're not doctors so we can't sit there and diagnose but what we're learning about what it means to have these disorders and people are saying well she's doing this x y and z you know it's weird because like some people are trying to like they might defend her by saying well yeah but she doesn't mean she's lying it means she's just demonstrating these behaviors But then it's her doctor who's saying she doesn't have this diagnosis. She has PTSD, but PTSD, again, I'm not an expert, but I don't think having PTSD means you are more performative. Being's, that's being performative is a symptom of these mental

disorders. And so I've never heard of performative with PTSD. Yeah. I don't know. But specifically with these, this, these, uh, personality disorders, that would be an explanation. So it's like, oh, we have to have empathy for her because she might have this disorder but it's her lawyer saying or her doctor saying no no she she doesn't though so then why is she being why why then what's the explanation of her coming across this way on the stand the the the do you get the the photograph of the cocaine on the oh yeah it was like the morning after he had been like partying doing drugs all night and she like comes down in the morning and she took a photo of the breakfast table and there was like four lines of coke and a shot glass full and i looked at nick and i was like this is so

perfectly placed if he was like the partier and the like doing drugs all night he wouldn't be leaving four lines of coke and a shot glass like he would have done them all it would be every i think like her purse is there i mean it looks like a really nice staged instagram photo you know aesthetically pleasing drug and it's just like there's just i guess you know anyone who's ever hosted a pregame knows like it does not look perfect the next morning. And it's just more, and before we get to Dr. Kurt, it just seems like also the Johnny Depp, we're hearing a lot of these tapes, right? And interestingly enough, a lot of these tapes were recorded by Amber, not Johnny, which I find to be so bizarre because we're listening to these tapes,

if I'm understanding it correctly, and I think we're still having more empathy for Johnny, and we're kind of like, what the fuck? She's acknowledging hitting him. She's saying, no one's going to believe you because you're a man type of stuff. A lot of Johnny Depp pleading with her. A lot of Johnny Depppp saying you can't hit me i'm gonna remove myself from the situation like the stuff at least that we're hearing on tape it sounds like really bad for her and and makes us like have more empathy for for johnny depp right and so the johnny depp i think we saw on the stand seems to also match the person we're

hearing on these tapes this kind of this energy and the amber we're hearing on these tapes and the amber we're seeing on the stand also doesn't seem to line up like it just there's just a lot of like i i saw different ambers we're. We saw these recordings of her doing testimony like years ago, uh, talking about the same events with different versions of the story. And then also I thought was more interesting, just a completely different energy from her. There was an energy of her kind of snickering and being aggressive and,

and on the stand she's more demure and like emotionally affected by that i don't know if that means anything but it's just i think when people watch it we're just like this doesn't this is not what i've been told on how to believe and and when i am told how i can believe someone. Yeah, and I also think so many people have just a sense. I think for me, any doubts I have towards her claims come from just this weird sense that she's being dishonest and I can't quite put my finger on it. And I think maybe that's a shared sentiment.

And then we have people trying to point to things that kind of prove that, and everybody picks their own thing that's like, oh, that for me is the thing that confirms this like intuition and it's like on one hand that feels like oh very unsubstantiated that it would be like just the vibes but then also when you think about like what is trial by jury if not like people using their own like sense of character and intuition yeah whether like to decide whether or not this person is guilty. Crazy. Let's get to Dr. Kirk. Dr. Kirk, welcome.

Thanks for having me. We had the chance to meet in person over the weekend in Seattle. We did. I was standing next to a famous person and someone recognized you. And I felt like I was basking in someone's fame. You know, in Seattle, we don't get a lot of famous people. So it was nice to see you. Well, it was great meeting you with you. And I had a lot of people from my audience mention you and suggest that we have you on the podcast. So we are very happy to have you.

Last week, we had Dr. Darciad, who talked a lot about the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial. And she, you know, gave a very spirited point of view on therapy, which raised some conversations around accountability versus the risk of sounding like we're victim blaming, so to speak. And I wanted to get your thoughts on that. I don't know if you had a chance to listen to that episode, but, you know, it seemed like I understood a lot of what Dr. Darcy was saying in terms of accountability and how our past trauma can affect us and our lives going forward, especially if we don't address them. And it is up to us to do the work. I get all that. I'm all, I'm fine. Like I'm a big believer in, in holding ourselves accountable. And I'm, but I'm curious from your point of view as a doctor, as you work with

patients, this must come up a lot with you, right? In terms of how as a therapist, do you try to simultaneously convey this message of you really need to do the work because it can affect you versus not making your patients feel like it's their fault for not addressing the trauma. And I'm assuming while you're working with your patients, there are these moments where you might have to push a little bit to try to hold them accountable. And how do you kind of massage that in terms of conveying that message because it seems to be i'm seeing this kind of sentiment on the internet a lot more and more where there seems to be like one group of people saying do the work hold yourself accountable it's up to you to get therapy get the help you need and another group of people saying whoa whoa whoa

stop blaming victims uh it's not their fault, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm always a big believer that two things can be true at the same time, even though it seems like a lot of people in the world often forget that these days. I'm really curious about what your thoughts on this topic are. And then we'll get a little bit into the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard trial of it all. Yeah, it's a great question. I would say that when people have good information and access, which is a problem, and even in the United States, but especially outside the United States and in certain countries, that people will avail themselves of the service.

So, however, when you provide a lot of misinformation about what therapy is or about mental health or even stigmatizing language around conditions like personality disorders, then people feel afraid of mental health because they're getting this message that they're going to be judged or it's not going to work or it is all their fault or something. And so, you know, you don't have to convince people once they have the right information because they will see the path ahead and go, that looks like a good path. But when you muddy the waters with, like I said, misinformation and lack of access, then they don't avail themselves of it. So to say that we have to hold people accountable is, I think it implies somehow people are choosing not to get healed.

They're choosing not to have a service that will help them. We have other fields like the medicine field where people generally, I mean, they still will avoid it sometimes, but they're generally more likely to go get help. If they break their arm, they're more likely to go to the ER. They're not going to stay home. But why is that? Well, it's because we have good information out there and we don't stigmatize it. And insurance often covers that sort of service. So that's my short answer to that. right? Or afraid they might be in abusive relationships. What advice do you have for them? Obviously, like we want to break the stigma with therapy. We try to do that as well. But what

would you say to someone on the street where you hear, like maybe you're overhearing a conversation in terms of trying to encourage them to get the help that they need? I mean, obviously cost matters, but let's assume there's someone who has insurance and their insurance covers therapy. obviously cost matters, but let's assume there's someone who has insurance and their insurance covers therapy. You know, what are some big obstacles that you find people other than say cost of trying to get the help that they need versus, you know, convincing themselves that they need to fight for this relationship or they still want to like give their partner the benefit of the doubt, et cetera, et cetera. Like all the reasons we maybe see people stay in unhealthy situations? Yeah, another good question. So what I might say, if someone was in a combative relationship and they seemed like they had access and they also seemed like they were resisting the idea

of going to therapy, what I would say to them is, I guess, the following. I would say, I'm sorry for interrupting. I don't know who you are, but I'm just going to yammer at you for a second. So that as a couples therapist, I have worked with highly combative couples, and I try to provide a space where people can talk about their experience. I don't judge them. Even if someone is being abusive, I will work with them. I find that when people are given a chance to get to know their attached injuries and the messages that they internalize from their parents in terms of what is acceptable behavior

towards your loved ones, then we do see improvements over time. It can be hard work and it can take time and you have to put in the work, but there's so much good to that. There's so much that can be gained. You can, I see that you're struggling with love. You love this

person and you want to be with them, but there's a lot of reasons why you don't want to be with them and you're frustrated and you've tried so many things without therapy to try to fix it, but come to a specialist. There are many of us and you can see gains, not always, but often. Let's just talk about, Johnny and Amber, you wanted to talk about that eventually, right? Yeah, yeah. Let's just cut to the chase. Let's just use it as an example, yeah. So for, who knows, and I can't diagnose from afar. I'm only seeing what is being presented. It could be quite distorted and who knows. And I know enough about humans to know that they all have deep, rich stories, but they have disclosed themselves that they both come from pretty horrific trauma, you know, childhood trauma backgrounds. And that typically will

set in motion the beliefs and schemas and defenses that one will call a personality disorder or some spectrum of a personality disorder. And then substance abuse will be used to self-medicate because of the lack of ability to emotionally regulate. And when you're in a relationship, you tend to attract or be attracted to or fall in love with people who also have these kinds of backgrounds. And not always though, it's certainly not always true, but it looks like that's a fair conceptualization of how they came together and how they feel so deeply in love with each other. Because they have, I think think described their relationship as the most combative and the most in love relationship or at least maybe she was saying that anyway um i think

similar sentiments about his his deep love for her while suggesting that he believes she treated him poorly as well so So yeah, I think that sentiment is equal on both sides to your point. But yeah, so my whole idea with couples is that they both come to the table with some sort of past relational trauma. And they are accidentally triggering each other at the same time as the other person tries to defend themselves or tries to reach out for love. And the greater the relational traumas, the more likely your communication is going to be convoluted. Like your partner comes home from work and they're in a bad

mood. And you remember how your father would be distant and would be in a bad mood sometimes. And that would really scare you as a child. And you're having these feelings of fear and hurt. And instead of stating from that place, you actually will go up to them and say, you criticize them. You're always taking your work too seriously. That's not really what you're feeling. What you're feeling is distance. But if you have never been shown that vulnerability can be rewarded, you attack instead. But it's coming from a good place. Times a thousand and you spread that out over 10 years or something and you might have something like Amber and Johnny. So what are you seeing with the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial? Because it seems like there was a lot of toxic or negative behaviors from both of them. And when you are dealing with couples who might come in and sit down and they start talking and saying, well, he did this, she did that, et cetera, et cetera. talking and saying, well, he did this, she did that, et cetera, et cetera. How do you try to treat a couple who you're looking at and think these are two people who have been either abusive or toxic to one another? Yeah, it's tough, but I've done it before and I've treated couples that were in worse shape than them before.

You'd be surprised how quote unquote toxic a relationship can be and still benefit from couple therapy. It can look impossible, but it's not. It's not. And often these couples, for me anyway, I have a great deal of professional satisfaction when I can get them to reduce conflict and increase intimacy. It can take years, like literally 10 years. But given what we're up against regarding their relational traumas and the amount of fighting that they've had already. And as you say, you can absolutely be traumatized as an adult relationally, and of course, in other ways. How do I work with them is, I guess,

a hypothetical sort of roadmap would be, one, we have to eliminate the violence. When I work with violent couples, that's number one. So we don't work on intimacy. We don't even necessarily work on reduction of conflict. We work on essentially separation techniques, and we set ground rules around that. So for example, Amber won't reportedly let Johnny separate.

And although Johnny's separation might not be helpful in the end to help resolve the issue, it does eliminate the possibility of violence happening. And so we would talk with the Ambers in the room and say, by rule, you have to let him go. In fact, it's probably a good thing. I would instruct the Johnnies in my room to say, turn around and say, I will be back. Cause that's the thing for, I don't know if she has borderline, but if she does, um, they pursue and to walk away from someone with borderline is deeply, deeply painful to them. I mean, it is, they go on a full panic attack, PTSD reaction. It's, it's no joke. It's not a choice that they have to, you know, they, it's really hard for them

not to see it that way and to not pursue out of desperation. And so, so the Johnnies of the world can help by saying, I'm not abandoning you. I'm just taking 30 minutes, but I'll be back. And then, you know, that can really often mitigate it. So that'd be one. And then two, we would start talking about their attachment injuries and how that creates wounds, which creates triggers, which they're both doing to each other. And through awareness about that, which can take a long time, they can modify their behavior and their ways of perceiving the other person, their own emotional regulation. That step can take years, by the way, particularly with a couple like this. Parallel to that, we would be addressing, at the very least, Johnny Depp's

addiction, and I would probably require that he was in some sort of treatment program, even if it was just once a month for check-ins and that kind of thing. And then I always know that I've reached the midpoint of therapy when a couple sits down on my couch and they're like, you know what? We haven't had a fight this week. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that would be a roadmap. I'm curious. So Johnny Depp hired a doctor, a therapist, and her team hired a doctor and a therapist. I feel like this happens in the court of law often where they have two opposing doctors who have two opposing points of view. But to summarize, if I'm understanding correctly, is Johnny Depp's doctor diagnosed Amber with histrionic and borderline personality disorder and also suggested at the same time that she saw no signs of PTSD. Well, Amber Heard's doctor said

literally the opposite where she saw signs of PTSD, but she didn't see signs of these personality disorders. I guess my question to you is, one, is if you have borderline or histrionic personality disorder, doesn't that mean that you have some sort of PTSD or is that not necessarily the case? And two, as a therapist and a doctor yourself, is it frustrating for you to see or is it common to have these two doctors have completely different points of view? Because, quite honestly, is like a, I guess a civilian as a non-doctor, it almost seems frustrating, right? Like you guys are the doctors. There should be some sort of standard. And why are we getting very different quote unquote expert diagnosis on this, on the same person? person and like who do you believe it almost

it feels like it discredits both of them at the same time and i'm curious like what what do you say or how does that make you feel as a physician or a therapist uh you know hearing that because it must come up a lot when you are in these civil cases in particular, it's understood that you have to find what your client wants to find. And if you don't find what you intuit they want to find, and it's all this kind of, and I'm just speaking from my experience. I have no idea about Dr. Hughes or Dr. Curry. I don't have the data before me, but it is weird that they both look at the same person and have essentially the opposite findings. You know, one person found personality disorders and no PTSD, and the other person found no personality disorders, no evidence, and PTSD, and strong evidence for PTSD.

So it's- Do you think, sorry to interrupt you, but do you think that that is because one, Dr. Curry spent only two hours with her and Dr. Hughes spent like 25 or something? Does the time that you spend with someone change that? Yeah. My understanding was Dr. Curry spent 12 hours or something like that. So she couldn't do a forensic evaluation in two hours. And from my memory, it was 12 hours. It was less, but it was less. So for me, when I diagnose people with personality disorders, it takes me months. So the fact that forensic psychology is expected to evaluate personality disorders in even 30 hours, frankly, is,

especially when they're doing all this other testing, is just not, I wouldn't be confident because personality disorders, it's so complicated. You have to get inside people's experience deeply. You have to understand their reactivity in a number of different contexts. And even then it's kind of opinion, you know, it's, that's the other thing is that, contexts. And even then it's kind of opinion, you know, it's, that's the other thing is that, and they state it as opinion, but I think it comes across as like, kind of like medical fact, but personality diagnosing is a, it's an art form. So to claim that it's, it's hard science and to stand, you know, in front of a courtroom and claim that somehow she does not have a personality disorder or she does have a personality, you know, because for me, if they asked me to come on the stand i'd be like they asked me i'd be like i don't know you could make a case for a

personality disorder you can make a case she doesn't and no one would want to hire me because yeah well attention we were discussing this before you came on is that like some of what just everyone who's watching it are a lot of the comments when it comes to Amber Heard is she seems to be theatrical or performative, kind of just fake. And then we remember the diagnosis from Johnny Depp's doctor saying, well, you know, if she's histrionic or borderline personality, that would be, that might explain why she's coming across that way. And so it's kind of like now to your point like we we we were provided this this kind of all this information and then and then we try to interpret what that means as we watch her i'm curious as you watch her on the stand as someone who's a you know has

a background in this what do you make of her on the stand i know you can't necessarily diagnose her because you haven't necessarily diagnose her because you haven't worked with her, but we're seeing this information and we're trying to extrapolate that and say, okay, well, if she has this diagnosis, then maybe that means her quote unquote fakeness or her performative nature or theatrics would be explained by that. But if she is not, then is she just reading as fake? On one hand, she is in a very weird position. I mean, just imagine that you have to convince the jury in the world of your narrative.

I mean, that's a lot of pressure. You could imagine someone erroneously thinking they have to amp up their emotional expression as a way of somehow being more convincing. You know, she's an actor, but she doesn't have a director there telling her what to do. So, you know, so it's a,

who knows what the real Amber Heard is. We can't look at her behavior in the courtroom as necessarily a representative of her behavior overall. regardless of who's to blame mostly, which we might not ever know for the abuse that they both have committed. I see two people that are deeply in pain. I mean, the amount of drug abuse that Johnny Depp has seemingly, you know, done tells me that he is in just so much pain. And obviously some of it's from Amber, but it goes way back, right? And when I watch the trial, occasionally I just think, oh, you know, because I've treated people like this and I've heard their stories. And they'll tell me just how miserable they are.

And it's easy to look at, I think maybe particularly Amber Heard, the way that she holds herself in public to think that like she's, I don't know, people will say that she's smug or, you know, some sort of master manipulator or something. It could be true, but it's not usually the case. Usually all of this that we've heard and all this stuff we've seen is it's born from just tremendous pain. And somehow because they're famous and rich and beautiful, it gives people some sense of license to attack them and ridicule them and bully them, which I just don't, I feel sad for them mostly. Yeah, I mean, I think that's we're all kind of coming to this conclusion which is one thing we do know

is that just a messy, sad situation and no one's going to win. Sorry to be a bummer. But it's true. That's the reality. Both of them are at fault.

And I do think that that is something that everyone can agree on, is that they both were extremely toxic and extremely abusive, whether it was physical, emotional, or mental, verbal, whatever, to each other. Yeah. On that note, just side note, because I did watch the episode with Dr. Darcy, and I don't know if you're still and we did talk about this in person the other day nick uh there is a thing called mutual abuse so you i want to vindicate you because yeah well a couple weeks ago i i threw out the word and a couple of

our listeners who like said they're studying to be a therapist or i don't know or suggested i was way off base by suggesting the term. And I was like, oh, maybe I'm way wrong there. No, that's in the clinical literature. There's lots of research on what they call bi-directional intimate partner violence. The reason why we want to be cautious when we are assessing or conceptualizing a couple this way is we might be inadvertently blaming a victim, including with Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. So we want to make quite certain that there isn't one person that overall is being abused and that victim is just

fighting back. And that can look from a distance as mutual abuse, but in reality, you have a victim who's just occasionally exploding or trying to defend themselves. In my field, I don't have to necessarily make that determination because, I mean, I try to get a sense of some general percentage if that's happening,

but I don't care who's to blame. The whole thing needs to stop. You know, like who all the intimidation and all the demands and all the punishments and all the violence, that's all got to stop. And I might kind of give some language, like, I think you're doing it a little less, but that also has to stop. But I'm, but I'm really just saying to the two of them, like all of this has to end and here's this new model that we're going to adopt. And so in the end, I might not ever know, especially scientifically, who was more to blame, but it didn't matter. Yeah. I think that's a great place to wrap it up too. Cause you, I think we're like, maybe it's just, I don't know how to like, we're trying to like talk about this

trial. And I think most people are trying to figure out who is to blame right and even in any type of relationship when we are in a fight of any time i think our our it's almost like our our nature or our reaction is to try to win a fight you know who it's not my fault you started it etc etc et cetera, et cetera. And to your point, it's more about stopping what's going on, trying to solve the problem rather than winning the fight, not pointing fingers because at the end of the day, as we are responding to this, we do seem to spend a lot of time trying to figure out who is to blame rather than solving the problem itself. Yeah. And as a trained marriage and family therapist myself, a big part of our philosophy

is called systems theory, which involves not trying to find who's to blame necessarily, but trying to find how the system operates to produce how it looks. And you treat the system, you don't try to single someone out and say, you're the problem. I mean, sometimes it's true that there is one person that is the problem in terms of the intimidation. So there's that caveat for sure. But yeah, it is a compulsion that I find, you know, because I react to a lot of reality TV on my YouTube channel. And in the conversations I hear about these couples on like 90 Day Fiancé or whatever, there's this compulsion to be like, I hate that because it reflects a principle or a tendency that doesn't help us in our own relationships, you know, because we're much more prone to believe we're right and the other person is wrong when it's a more helpful perspective to say that we're

both right and we're both wrong and we're both triggering each other. Dr. Kirk, this has been really helpful and really interesting. I appreciate you taking the time. Can you please let my audience know where they can follow you, listen to you with all the things that you are doing? I have a podcast and YouTube channel called Psychology in Seattle, and I am reacting to various different things and doing various different deep dives. But I also, because you prompted me to watch the Dr. Darcy episode last week on your show, and I actually did a full, long, lengthy reaction video to everything that she was saying. And so I'm going to post that. I look forward to that.

Yeah. So watch out for that on my YouTube channel. All right. Well, we thank you very much. Appreciate it. And, um, um, it's been really great. Yeah. Thanks for having me. All right. Thanks. Thanks. Janine. Welcome. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. We are so excited to have you for the people who don't know. Uh, I'd love for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself, specifically your expertise as a body language expert. What does that mean? And if I'm understanding correctly, you have been in court at the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial. Is it every day or some of the days? How involved have you been and what role? Well, first of all, I have been in the courthouse and I've been virtually in the courtroom with

the rest of us. Okay. So you're watching it virtually. Which is better because I'm focused on micro expressions. Okay. So for me to be sitting in there and looking at Johnny Depp's back of his head is going to be useless for me. Interesting.

Okay. So we have the same level of data, I guess, to go on. So before we get into what you're observing as regards to the court, I'd love for you to give us just a little background and what does it mean to be a body language expert and how exact is this science? And just give us a little insight into what you're doing and then what we can derive from the things that you're observing. So my background is 18 years with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, ATF. My dad said I'm his daughter who turned her hobbies into a career, drinking, smoking, and shooting. I don't do any of those things half as much as I used to. So at the time,

I was one of, I think there were three of us. If you Google body language experts was myself, the Alan Pease and his wife, a woman named Patty Wood, along came a woman named Tanya Ryman. She was on Bill O'Reilly for a little bit. And then that was it. Now, if you Google body language experts, you'll get thousands and and thousands anyone who took a psychology class or read a book on or watched a tiktok body language expert yeah well great thank you for that for that insight so as a body language expert uh how exact is this science and how confident when you are watching people and seeing uh their their body language, are you in your diagnosis? For example, like we just talked to a therapist, Dr. Kirk, who, you know, talked about as a therapist, you know,

he's giving his opinion, he's making observations. And there was a lot of, I guess you could say disclaimers in terms of like, hey, as a therapist, I'm observing X, Y, and Z. But, you know, we can't necessarily assume or I have to make assumptions, he's saying sometimes as a therapist that I diagnose. Reading body language obviously is very different than being a therapist. Or do you leave room for, hey, it could mean this, but it could also mean this? Or do you get pretty confident and specific with your diagnosis? There is. Well, it's not a diagnosis.

That would be a therapist. My evaluation, I would say. Evaluation. Thank you. So it's all right. So it's not that simple. It's not cut and dry. So body language in and of itself, I think, is not great at detecting deception. You're looking for a baseline when someone's baseline changes, all it means is, is there something they're not telling you? So ask me if I ever cheated

on my ex-husband. Have you ever cheated on your ex-husband? No. Many people would say, aha, she's a cheater because a shoulder shrug is uncertainty. She said a definitive answer, no, but then showed uncertainty. Janine's a cheater. No. When I said no, there's a disconnect in my baseline. I shouldn't do an uncertainty shrug, but you just opened a file from a filing drawer, a cabinet drawer that I'm uncomfortable talking about. Maybe my ex has been cheated on me and I'm called the human lie detector. Maybe my assistant just told me she thinks her significant other is cheating on her. So when you have asked me something and my body language is saying there's something suspicious, we don't know what the catalyst is for that change in that behavior. Do you understand? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That's part one. Part two, there's something called seven universal

emotions and they show up on all of our faces the same way or pretty much the same way. Happiness and sadness and fear and surprise and anger, contempt and disgust. It doesn't matter if you're from the Ukraine or from Russia or from Chicago. They show up the same way on our faces. It doesn't matter if you're 3, 13, or 103. So this is a science that it will show me if I do this, it's disgust. If I do this, it's contempt, moral superiority, which we see a lot on the stand and a lot in the courtroom with Amber, this moral superiority. I can tell you with 100% certainty what it is, what emotion it is, but I can't, again, tell you what the catalyst is. I can just tell you there's uncertainty here. Where their eyes move, I can tell you different things.

If they look down and they look down left or down right, it's one of two things. They're either in internal dialogue, having a conversation with themselves, or they're processing through emotions. So we don't know, but we certainly know it's one of those two things. They're not visualizing something in that moment. They're either having a conversation like, what else should I say? What should I do next? Or they're processing through emotions. Lastly, I'm trained in something called movement pattern analysis from Chicago out of Columbia College. We move in a pattern that could be analyzed. We each have, both of you have a behavioral fingerprint.

Look how you're sitting differently. When you walk into the room, you'll walk in differently. So we have a behavioral fingerprint, much like your thumbprint. And there's about eight to nine billion people on the planet. And there are 36 billion different behavioral fingerprints. And so one of my specialties is this movement pattern analysis. And this goes back to World War II. Harvard University has done studies on this, 99% accurate.

So this means I can watch you. I have to watch you. I'm profiling right now both Amber and Johnny because I have to get two hours of footage where I can see their whole body. So I'm going through different videos and interviews they've done over the past decades to get their behavioral fingerprint. And I don't have it yet, but I can certainly see some of the elements in the courtroom with this behavioral fingerprint. We all make 12 moves, all humans on planet earth, unless you've had a stroke or you're in a wheelchair. And so

I'm looking for these 12 movements. As a matter of fact, Johnny Depp's attorney just did one a couple of days ago. I'll chat about it if we have time. Yeah. What does it mean to cross your legs or cross your arms a lot? Because I do this a lot. So it could be your baseline. So if you do it a lot at your baseline, it means nothing to me. Crossed arms is the biggest myth in body language. Crossed arms, think about it. We think it's bored, disinterested, defensive. Well, someone forgot to tell all the cops because when they go to the scene of a crime, they do this. They see a dead body, a pack of cigarettes, a gun. Are they bored, disinterested, and defensive? No, they're using both sides of their brain. So crossed arms uses both your right brain, which is intuitive and takes risks, which controls the left side of your body, and your left brain that likes facts and

figures and wants to think about it logic, which controls the right side. your body and your left brain that likes facts and figures and wants to think about it logic which controls the right side so if you cross your arms like that you're 30 more likely to solve a difficult task or problem because you're tapping into both sides of your brain that makes way more sense you've you've you cracked the code you made me feel so seen to me because i'm always like why do i do But I often use, I mean, I use both sides of my brain a lot in terms of, yeah, I use this a lot on my girlfriend. All right, let's get into what you have observed and what you can tell us about both Johnny and Amber as it relates to their testimony and what you're seeing. I know you're kind of in the middle of your evaluation, but what light can you shed on what you've been studying? There's something called Miller's law. And Miller's law is that when people are telling you something, they actually will often tell you the truth. And so when Amber is on the stand, so this is something else I'm trained in. It's called statement analysis. Words are way more accurate to detect deception in body language because the truth is in the words. So when Amber says things like, she said, this is the toughest thing I've ever experienced in my life, being in this courtroom, seeing people, my ex-husband, people I knew and people I thought I knew talking about me. This is the hardest thing I've ever gone through in my life.

Okay, most battered women and battered men who survive, going through the courtroom is not the hardest thing. Maybe losing a loved one or having your kids see you be abused or your parents see you be abused. So I believe, in fact, this is the hardest thing she's probably gone through in her life. When she says, I wish I could tell you the story step by step, but I can't. It comes to me in chunks. I wish I could tell you step by step. Well, truthful people can tell you step-by-step. I'm a battered woman survivor. I had a boyfriend that left me for dead, legit. And I can tell you step-by-step from when I walked into his house to

what happened next, to what he did next, all the way until I was in the driveway when he pushed the button and his garage door is slowly going down. And just before he turns his back and walks away, he said, I hope you effing die out there. Like I can tell you step-by-step. So the fact she says, I wish I could tell you, I believe that. I believe she does wish it. I believe that she's lying in my expert opinion. She's using combinations, stuff from movies, stuff from what her former assistant told her where she was brutally attacked and making up a whole bunch of stuff. So it makes sense. By the way, liars can tell the story backwards. Liars, tell me about a time you experienced some grief or some type of trauma and you tell me the story, this, this, this. You can also tell me backwards with absolute certainty and clarity. It might take you a hot second, but the order will be correct. Liars can't tell us backwards what happened. Oh, so liars can't. I thought, yeah. No. So I may have said that wrong. Truthful people can. Truthful people can tell backwards. Yes. Yeah. So Miller's law is a couple

things. So this Miller, Miller's law is this. We tell people the truth. So like Jean Benet Ramsey's mother said, fine, if I killed the child, tell me steps one through 10, how I did it. Now I'm not saying she did it, but she, if we can take out, if I, so we can take out if, and in the statement is I killed the child. This is suspicious to me. So it's like, if I dated you guys and I said, I just want to let you know, I'm not the kind of person would cheat on you. I can't take out the word not. It's in the middle. But I know you think I'm the kind of person who would cheat on you. This person, you should be very cautious about dating them. I know you think I could take that away.

I'm the kind of person who would cheat on you. Maya Angelou would say, people tell you who they are. You better pay attention when they tell you the first time. So in statement analysis, Amber is giving me lots of information that indicates that she's not being truthful. Could you give us some more examples of why you think that? Yeah. So she does also part of statement analysis.

She does start stop sentences. So when there's a start, she does them all the time. So we were on the couch and I was on the ground and I saw that the rug was dirty and my dog got stung by a bee. Like these start stop sentences, what they are is if you've ever gotten a scar, a scar means a piece of your skin has been removed and the other two pieces are sewn together. When you have a start stop sentence, it's two parts of the story and something has been removed. So this is that scar that we're picking up on that what's being removed from her story. I do think some of what I do think her dog was stung by a bee. She's like, stung by a bee, right? I do think Johnny Depp probably had a jar of cocaine, a jar, a jar of cocaine. You know,

I think these parts where she oversells it for her, I think this is where the truth actually is. Typically, truthful people convey information and liars try to convince us. But because there's so much deception, in my opinion, my expert opinion, I think that where she's trying to convince us are actually the truthful moments. Like, no, this really did happen, this part, this really did happen. She also drops the pronoun. So instead of saying, he hit me, or I did this, I fell to the ground, the pronoun is dropping. And when we drop the pronoun, we're no longer connected with the story. It's just a story that's hanging out there. And she also changes the tenses. So Susan Smith said, who dragged her two kids in the early 90s, I loved my boys. Well, the helicopters are still over her head looking for her boys.

She's using past tense. With Amber Heard, we're seeing and hearing both current and past tense. And here's the deal. Because everything is so all over the place, she's not going to become across as believable. And this part, another part of this Miller's Law is, if I can't get into your story, if I can't be transport, you know, you yawn, I yawn, we have mirror neurons. So when you tell me a story, if Natalie's telling me a story about a time where someone punched her in a bar when she was in college and she's like, I came out, I did have a couple of cocktails and this guy came up out of nowhere and just punched me in my face. I'll be transported in that story.

And once I am, I'll believe her. But here's the difference. If God forbid this happened to you, Natalie, you would tell me the story from your perspective. When we get Amber Heard on the trial, on the stand, she's telling us from Johnny's perspective. She's telling us from the abuser's perspective. So she's showing, it's called illustrators, and she's showing us the movements of the attacker. She should be, and Johnny pushed me in the head. Think about Johnny Depp. So she should almost be showing like a defensive kind of body language.

Interesting. Yeah, think of Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp said, I was sitting here. I'm like this. My hand is like this, like on the edge. And she's throwing the bottles at me. He is in the perspective. He's in the shoes of the person who's receiving the abuse.

She talked about, you know, and Johnny did this and he was speeding me up. And I thought I was going to die and he was speeding me up. And I think I let my grip down. Or I think I softened my grip. She went from him, him, him to all of a sudden her. And it's a disconnect. And it happens all the time with her. It's these Freudian slips that she does.

It's a disconnect and it happens all the time with her. It's these Freudian slips that she does. A study was done out of, I wrote it down here, Tilburg University in the Netherlands about fake crying and real crying. Have you guys watched it? Who do you think was really crying and who do you think was fake crying? We're not seeing a lot of tears from Amber.

So yeah, I think it seems like amber might be fake crying at least from my point of view would you what about you yeah i would agree as well yeah i don't because it seems like she's reaching this point of and maybe it's just like you were saying the broken sentences but it's like she's using these pauses either to try and convey emotions or think of her words which maybe could come across as being like choked up, but then you don't see the tears accompanying it. We, we, we, we are consumers of reality TV. I don't know if you know this, but it is a, it is a fake crying happens on reality TV. And I don't know if you could speak to this, but what I notice is like, there's a moment of like

a pause and then the person takes like a breath like a and then they start the the emotion because it's like i can almost see it in their brain of like the awareness of i should cry now and it and like and i see this on reality tv a lot i haven't necessarily seen something as dramatic with with amber but, like, you can kind of almost see this kind of internal thought of, it might be really good to cry. And then like, take a breath to kind of rather rally the energy it's going to take to like show this emotion. I don't know if that, uh, or take a pause for a photo op, right. We saw that too. Yeah. Let's talk about the crying aspect because this is another, this is another aspect I'm putting together in a PowerPoint.

I think if we were to survey everyone that's been watching this trial, there was one particular time on the, in the trial where someone was crying and it really pulled at our heartstrings. Like it was uncomfortable to be witnessing it. Can you guess what it was? I'm not aware. No, tell us. It's when the audio recording was playing of where Amber came to the hotel and violated the restraining order. And she came and just wanted to hug Johnny. And he has a knife and he wants to like cut himself or stab himself. And she's like, it's a dull life. Don't, don't stab yourself. And, and you hear Johnny's voice. And while this is happening, Johnny Depp is on the stand at this

point when this is playing and he cries, he cries, he cries just a hot second. And in that moment, we're transported into a man who was one of probably one of the lowest of lows of his life being played for the world. And he gets like choked up and emotional. And so I'm emotional thinking about it because we're transported. I don't think that's going to happen for the jury with Amber because it's so all over the place. Miller's law means we have to get into the story and feel it, feel what that, I think we've all been in a place where we just felt like it would be better off to just either not be here or, or just better off to, you know, rewind the story or just, we wish this person

never came into our life. Like we've been at the bottom of a, of a difficult situation at some point, heartbroken. And we don't see that with Amber. So when you fake cry, it's going to cause Amber way more harm than good. And we can only remember seven, we have a phone number with seven numbers. We can only remember the average is seven pieces of information for 30 minutes. This is why Amber's testimony here is changing from what she said in the UK. And so this is something I'm examining now, the two different ones, the two different stories. And the more she tells details, she's kind of not making a strategic decision here because I think Johnny Depp's attorneys next, in the two weeks from now, when they go back, they're going to hammer her. They're going to, they're going to, all the details she's giving,

it's going to be, she's going to lose all credibility. I mean, already it's going on TikTok. She was asked on the stand, did you ever try to learn to play the credibility. I mean, already it's going on TikTok. She was asked on the stand, did you ever try to learn to play the guitar? She said, no. And it's going around TikTok of her singing a song and playing a guitar. She said she never played the guitar. And then there's like videos of her singing and playing the guitar quite well, actually. Yeah. She perjured herself already, which she could go to jail for. She perjured herself a couple times regarding her her saying she's never done mdna is it mdna mdma mdma with johnny and then said she did it once so yeah there's a a lot of

i think you know people were asking me this morning when they prove that she has perjured herself next week or in a couple weeks when they go back people were asking me do i think she'll end up in jail and i do think that there's a potential of that happening because she's wasting the court's time. Virginia, you know, we're not used to all this celebrity hubbub. She's really wasting the judge's time. And if she perjures herself and it's proven next week, which we all know that she's perjured herself, if it's proven in court in a big way, I want to be surprised if the judge does give her some time in jail. Because if she doesn't, we're sending the wrong message to people who are watching around our country that you can perjure yourself.

It's not a big deal. It's not like you're going to go to jail or anything. It's going to do a huge disservice to our criminal justice system if she doesn't get any time, even a night behind bars. She doesn't get any time, even a night, behind bars. Question for you. Obviously, they are actors. And they've been told by their counsel that everyone's watching them. The jurors are watching you. So, you know, write down stuff or be aware of what you look like. Is that something that you had to take into consideration when doing this,

that they are actors and their responses could potentially just be them acting or in this situation you think they're 100 real or like to your point like they even got coached to do a certain thing by their council well they're definitely first of all they're definitely both someone's definitely trying to coach them uh you know johnny depp one of the reasons he didn't like 21 Jump Street is because he didn't like being pushed into being a product of someone else. If someone's coaching Johnny, I don't know how much coaching. I feel like the real Johnny's hitting the stand. Amber's being coached for sure. I mean, she's wearing the same outfits as Johnny. She's looking at the jury. I think it's going to backfire on her because there's so much mumbo

jumbo. They're not going to relate. on her because there's so much mumbo jumbo. They're not going to relate. I doubt the jury's crying hearing her stories. What I do to get a baseline is I go back and I watch interviews where they're just themselves, where they're on like David Letterman or The Tonight Show or Oprah or Ellen, where they're just being them and not acting. But then again, you don't really know. And I'm watching their baseline of how they normally behave, what's their tone, their pitch, who they are. And Amber has changed her baseline where Johnny's is 100% consistent. It's the same exact Johnny in all of those interviews that we see in the courtroom. You know, he's a little smug. I mean, he's definitely verbally abusive.

We've heard that in court from different things that he said. That's not what this case is about though. And Johnny touches his face a lot. This is part of his baseline. He'll laugh at an inappropriate time. He does this, it's incongruent humor, we call it. And he does that when he talks about the abuse his mother did to him. He talked about it when he is talking about the abuse Amber has done. He'll laugh at these spots. This is alleviating negative feeling, negative emotions. And it can be provocative, which we see when Amber's on the stand. And she says, I think at one point she said, and Johnny said, I was the biggest mistake of his life or that he wished he never met me when

it's something like that. And he's like, he's looking down and he's like, that one's right. like that and he's like he's looking down he's like that one's right that one's right yeah you see him responding like not to her but like there was a part where like she said uh and he whipped out his penis and there's a shot of johnny like shocked like it was almost like like twice we're talking about his penis like well the reaction was like how did she come up with it like i to me it read like almost he was like he was hearing this for the first time. Someone else had mentioned it prior in the it had been in question before that he was peeing in the living room. Oh, OK. It had been asked.

Gotcha. Yeah. Like outside the like in the foyer, they had asked his bodyguard when you picked up Johnny, he was peeing in the foyer. Right. And the bodyguard is like, I think he, he was peeing in the foyer, right? And the bodyguard is like, I think he's from Scotland. It's like, no. And his lawyer goes, I mean, Amber Heard's lawyer goes, so you didn't see Johnny Depp with his penis out in the foyer peeing? And he goes, I think I'd see, I think I remember if I saw Mr. Depp's penis. I think I remember. And they're

like, objection. So it's the second time they're talking about Johnny Depp's penis. Can't you just say pee? We get where it's coming up. We don't need to have an anatomy lesson. I just think I have been watching this trial as well. And any time that, obviously, I don't know if you know this, Johnny doesn't look at Amber. He looks down, he looks this way, he looks at his lawyer, but he does not ever look at Amber. But when she's speaking and she says something kind of radical or he looks at his lawyer like, can you believe she just like that again? Or can you believe she just said that? And to me, I find that more believable than kind of the reactions that Amber was having. Yes, 100%.

So this is a strategy for sure. So I don't know if you've ever been in the company of someone who doesn't like you or you walk out of it. You meet some people and you're like, oh, that one didn't like me. And you're like, no, he liked you. And you're like, the reason you feel that way is because they didn't like, they didn't look at you. And so Johnny right out of the gate is not looking at her, which is very strategic. He's saying, I don't have no respect for this person in front of me. And think about the other difference here with their words. What did

Johnny call Amber? When? When he testified. Misheard. What does Amber call him? Johnny. Johnny. So I'm getting a lot of battered women that are writing to me through my TikTok and through different social media saying, I just want to let you know, I testified in court. My husband shot me with a gun. My ex-husband, I would have never in court called him by his first name. He's nothing. Like I would have never in court called him by his first name. He's nothing. Like I would never. And so lots of women are writing to me saying the fact she calls him Johnny.

And not only that, she said he was the love of her life and then said he still is. There is no survivor of domestic abuse who's going to say that person is still the love of my life. They'll say something like Johnny said, which is she didn't exist. You never existed. The person I loved never existed. You weren't real. Yeah. You talked a lot about that, especially all the just remembering everything. Yeah. I pointed that out earlier how I was in an intimate partner violence relationship, and anytime I've ever asked about it, I can recall step by step how the fight started,

what transpired, and how it ended. And I'm just blown away by how Amber just doesn't make sense. She's not like, she only, she's on the ground and then she's on her back and then she's slapping him across. Like, I mean, it just doesn't make any sense to me. And I find that. She's like, he's grabbing, she's like, he's grabbing my, my hair, my hair, but she's like grabbing his arm. So these are called illustrators and body. First of all, I'm so sorry that you were, you're, you're a survivor of this abuse. I'm glad that you've lived through it. And I'm sorry that that happened.

But she's like looking at her arm, but saying it's her hair. And it's, again, they can't put themselves in the story. So you said that you, Natalie, you said you can remember what happened before, what happened on the actual altercation and then what happened after. So when we're telling a story,

there should be about 20 to 30% upfront. So we'll average it out 25% before. Then the actual incident should be 50% of you talking. Then there should be an after story about 10 to 15%. Okay., when people are lying, they'll often like Jussie Smollett, they'll stage a hate crime in Chicago and, and even R. Kelly. So they'll often stack the deck really high up front because these things are truthful. All this happened. I did this and I was going to get a sandwich over at, you know, over our salad or in Chicago and it was cold and I was going to sandwich over at this, you know, whatever it was, I forget the sub sub place subway, you know, yeah, these, all these things are truthful. And so they'll stack the deck with all this truthful stuff. And then the incident will be such a short amount of time. I mean, watch someone, watch, watch someone who's attacked by a bear and listen to their story. By the way, hand gestures happen up to five seconds before thought. By the way, hand gestures happen up to five seconds before thought. So there's four stages of how we communicate. I say think like a tree.

So the roots of the tree are your intention or what you believe. The trunk of the tree is body language. The branches are thought. And then the leaves are words. This means body language is happening up to five seconds before thought. So we know how Amber's feeling before Amber knows how she's feeling. And what we're looking for because this happens, and this is also on my to-do list, is when she's talking about the attacks, I'll be slowing it down. And the gestures, whatever gestures, minimal amount of gestures she's using should happen

a half a second before the word. Let's do a test right now. Both of you say, call me with a hand gesture and with your words. How would you say, call me with a hand gesture and your words? Okay. I said, call me.

Did you see what happened? Your hand gesture came up first. Yeah. Now I want you to do the hand gesture when you say me. I want you to say, call me. Call me. Call me. Do it again. Call me. Call me. Call me. Do it again. Call me.

Call me. One more time. Does that feel weird? Yeah. It also looks weird. Both of you go like this. Go, check, please. Check, please. Yeah, that's weird.

You're doing it correctly. You can't do it. So I'll be watching. I'll be slowing it down and seeing does her gestures come a half a second before. And I have a funny feeling the answer is going to be no. And Spencer Kelly over at Colgate university did a study guys. And here's what he found out. If I said, do you have a peanut butter and jelly on my socks, please? Your brain is like this peanut butter and jelly socks. What? It does like this brain hiccup. And what he found out is when our body language doesn't match what I'm saying, there's a brain hiccup. So when she is talking about being beaten and punched and thrown,

but she is showing up as the aggressor, the jury's brain is going to say, wait a minute, I think she's asking for a peanut butter and jelly on her socks. brain is going to say, wait a minute, I think she's asking for a peanut butter and jelly on her socks. They're going to say there's something weird here. They can't put their finger on it, but they're just not going to believe her, in my opinion. Fascinating stuff. We really, really appreciate you taking the time, Janine, and look forward to getting you more of your insights as you continue to study this trial. Can you please let our audience know where they can find you and get more of the information you're putting out there? Yeah, my TikTok's going crazy right now. So I love, I'm the best version of me when

I'm serving others. So they'll often ask me to promote, I've written a couple of books. I don't care about any of that. You get that stuff at the library where you can get free information where I'm analyzing this case. Today, I'm going to do about five more books. I don't care about any of that. You get that stuff at the library where you can get free information where I'm analyzing this case today. I'm going to do about five more videos. I'm doing them around the clock. I started at seven o'clock this morning is my TikTok page is body language Institute, body language Institute.

And my website is Janine driver.com J A N I N E driver.com. And if I can help serve you in any way, I'm here to help. Let me know, shoot me a message or an email either through TikTok or on my website my website janine thank you so much we really appreciate it thanks for having me guys thank you bye bye wow okay so interesting very interesting but it all made a lot of sense totally yeah yeah totally so she definitely she thinks amber heard as the aggressor and being more untruthful. And it was interesting how, you know, she didn't talk too much about like what she saw from Johnny, other than that one moment of him putting himself in the place of when he was talking about the abuse he received. He was talking from his point of view. That one part that that's really interesting. I wanted to close with, uh, just a conversation that we kind of opened up with,

with like, you know, as women who have talked about being victims themselves, and there's a lot of conversation about what is this trial going to mean for the landscape when it comes to abuse and believing people? I mean, how does it make you guys feel, you know, or do you have any fear or do you feel like you're taking this case at face value? Because it does seem like there are, there are some people out there, there's this fear of what is it like, I, I have to believe Amber because we want to believe women and we want to believe the women's who are victims of abuse. Like, how does that resonate with you? Or do you see it differently? Or what are your thoughts on that?

I think that's where it becomes difficult. I think just as a woman, you want to believe any person who says they've been victimized before, especially as a victim yourself. You don't ever want to think that it's possible that someone would lie about that because you know yourself how traumatic and scarring it is to go through something like that. So to think that someone would lie about it is a very hard

thing to grasp, for me especially. So I do feel this sense of needing to believe her because I just, I don't want to believe that she would lie about this. But with this particular situation, I have a hard time believing her because it just seems so inconsistent. inconsistent. And it makes it scary for other women to want to feel like they can come forward and they can talk about their situation because this trial is so publicized and it's so large. And she's saying such terrible things that if she can get up there and lie about these things, then how are we supposed to be trusted and that's where it it becomes difficult and i thought it was very interesting like some of the stuff janine was saying too like the the recounting and like the the hand gestures and what you would do like and you talked about this too like you can you can say everything that happened you can tell

all the details like if i was ever like recounting it i could like like i can feel it like i can feel my body and i can feel like where his hands were on mine and i would demonstrate it on myself um and also like her saying like the prep of the story versus like when it happens like it doesn't matter how long the abuse whether it be you know emotional sexual physical whatever like time stops in those moments so it feels like forever and that's where you would like give all the details so it's like I couldn't put my finger on what wasn't adding up and then it's like moments like that of like yeah I guess it can be different for everyone but in terms of recounting it was interesting to hear Janine's feedback because I'm like yeah that's not how I would recount I mean I don't know then you also don't want to because you know every situation's

different you know every person handles something in a different way than you do so that's you like don't want to discredit her because you're like maybe it's just different because it's like the biggest fear like the first like the first time I ever started talking about when I was like, I think I have PTSD from when I was 14. Like I was like, it took me years to get to that point. And then it was me working with a therapist who like, I just, I hadn't told anybody about it. And then she like basically wrote like this diagnosis via email. And I just like forwarded it to my family because I was like, see, it's not like I'm not making it up. And then it's like, but I like didn't know how else to go about it other than forwarding an email to my family.

My dad was like in the basement and like came upstairs and was like, oh. But I was like, yeah, I've just been sitting on this. But it's like it's so hard because you don't want to be questioned because then you feel like you're going crazy. And then it's like nothing's been like I had a friend like I've said it earlier in this episode like had friends realize through me going through not even just like when I was 14 but other experience experiences being drugged like all this other stuff happening other friends coming to me and being like you helped me realize that and in a way it's a very like validating thing of me being like holy shit like I guess through my

pain I can help other people and I can be there for them so it's like who am I to turn around and question someone because like I'm so thankful that so many people didn't question me like it's so hard well and I think it's just that of like the idea of like who is the burden of proof on because I think the way I interpret like the the spirit of believing women is not saying that like no woman is ever going to tell a lie, but rather that instead of where we had it certainly before me too, and I think arguably still now where there's this slant of like, it is such an uphill battle to prove this trauma, even though, and I think like, you know, we say women, it's anybody who's a survivor of it. But I think especially in like all female spaces I've been in, there's this like difference of like,

oh, we all understand. It's like, we know just how common this is we have like it's happened to us it's happened to our friends and so there's this there's this level of like acceptance and I think the idea is when we say believe women is that we want to have not to say that like you will never ever ever lie or that you will never wrong. But just that we're going to start from a place. Of like acceptance and believing you. And like validating your experience. And like I've been hoping that that. By. Yeah I just like that sort of means.

With that interpretation. Even if Amber Heard is lying. About this stuff. It doesn't. It doesn't set a precedent for not believing. Because she has gone through. Traumatic things from her prior life. it doesn't set a precedent for not believing. Because she has gone through traumatic things from her prior life and from Johnny. He's done and said terrible things to her.

And that does deserve empathy and sympathy for her. And I just wish that it wasn't everything that is true isn't being called a lie because there's so many other things that she could possibly be lying about yeah we can't yeah it's like a weird thing where it's like you don't want to throw out everything because there clearly are like clearly she's dealing like you said with trauma so it's like how do you pick and choose is a hard thing yeah it's tough but like I guess to your point too I think we want to and should and also to Amanda's point like when we hear anyone talk about

them being victimized whether it's women whether it's men I think we have to want to receive that with an open mind and want to give them the benefit of the doubt and hear them and listen and really make them feel like they're heard. Because I think that's the thing. In the past, I think we were always so quick to dismiss people. Oh, they're exaggerating. Oh, I don't know if that happened. Oh, what's the other side?

You know, and I think you, I think all victims have felt that way uh and so like maybe maybe the hope is with this trial we're just having despite you know wondering if amber heard telling the truth and overall um better empathy for all victims and just a willingness to like the nuances and we when we listen to dr kirk talk about like you know of experiencing trauma and how we can affect and how in a relationship we can we can continue to hurt each other's partners unwillingly and we are you know it's just like there's just a lot a lot to digest here so thank you for sharing your stories i know that's not always easy it's just it's tough just lots to unpack and a lot lots to talk about and it requires so much nuance and i think there's a desire to feel like we can reach a conclusion together, that there's

some way to make sense of this because it's been batshit and it's been overwhelming and it started so many different conversations. And I think for me personally, like I want to get to a point where I'm like, ah, yes, this is what is going on. Like I want to find a reality that feels tangible. And it just seems like because of all the nuance that's involved, like, that's not maybe a realistic expectation in unpacking this. I don't think it is.

I think all we can really do is try to, like, discuss the nuance and then have some helpful takeaways. Because you're right. Like, I don't think people are going to decide who they want to believe. And then I don't think there's ever going to be a clear answer and i think that's a real problem with like this team johnny rhetoric where there's like many ways that i've empathized with johnny depp and felt a lot of i guess not loyalty but like empathized with him but i think changing it into like a team thing makes it seem like it makes it win loss like black and white instead of this like both and nuanced situation that it actually is. Yeah.

Well, what a rich episode of a lot of information. I hope you guys enjoy this. Tomorrow, we have a very fun episode with the wonderful Erica Purcell. You might know her from TikTok. Her fiance, Scott, not yet her husband. We became best friends at Coachella. They are in town. And we are going to have a ton of fun with them tomorrow on Going Deeper.

We have office hours, texting office hours. So tune in tomorrow. Thanks for listening. Subscribe, rate, review. Natalie, I love you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing your story. Love you.

Love you guys. Love you, Natalie. Love everyone. Love you. Love you. And thank you to Janine and Dr. Kirk as well. And be sure to follow them, subscribe. Am I missing anything?

See you tomorrow. Hey, guys. thanks for watching. But before you go, make sure you like, subscribe, and ring that bell so you don't miss any future videos like our Monday's Ask Nick, especially if you're looking for some relationship stories and relationship advice, as well as our Wednesday interviews

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