The Viall Files - E452 Bachelorette Recap w/ Allison Raskin

Episode Date: July 26, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelorette Recap Edition! Today we are back with another episode, joined again today by New York Times Bestselling Author, Podcaster, and mental health advocate, Allison Raskin! On this episode we kick things off by getting the latest in Bach Nation news; talking about Nayte’s recent big move to Los Angeles and becoming roommates with Rodney, a recent paparazzi photoshoot of Tyler Cameron and Paige Lorenze in NYC, plus Nick’s worst paparazzi moments. We then dive into recapping the episode itself! We talk about how Gabby and Rachel are handling getting both devotion and rejection from the guys, how every season challenges your insecurities, and how to manage when half the guys are not there for you. We talk about how Mario blew his chance by exploring too much, how some of the guys may flip teams from one lead to the other, and how it’s a miracle Hayden is still in the game after a rough night. We also dive into Gabby breaking the mold of surface level fairytales by getting real about not having the love of her mom, and on the other hand, how some people are finding “deep” connections over the fact that their fathers would drive them to the airport.  “Getting clarity isn't the end of the world.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Fetch Rewards: Download Fetch now and use code VIALL and get 3000 points on your first receipt! → https://fetch.thld.co/viall_0622 Away Travel: Start your 100-day trial and shop the entire Away lineup of travel essentials, including their best-selling suitcases and bags at http://www.AwayTravel.com/viall. Helix Sleep: Helix is offering up to 200 dollars off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners at http://www.HelixSleep.com/viall. Mejuri: Make your own day and go to http://www.Mejuri.com  FIGS: FIGS believes the awesome humans in healthcare deserve scrubs that match. Head to http://wearFIGS.com and use code VIALL to get 15% off your first order. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @allisonraskin @emotionalsupportlady  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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You can do it from any retailer. Like I said, I mean, literally, if you just want to let people know what you buy, you will be rewarded for it. And you can even use e-receipts, too. It's amazing. Download Fetch now and use code VIALL to get 3,000 points on your first receipt. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another amazing and exciting episode of The Vile Files Bachelorette Recap Edition. I'm your host Nick, joined by Allie and Amanda. Ladies, how are you doing? Good. I feel like it's been years since we've been here. It's been a week.

Five days. Correct. I'm not sure why time is passing so slowly. It's nice to know that you miss us so much. Nick walked down the hallway and I was like, oh my God, it's you. I can only read that as like you just love being here. Yeah, and you specifically. Yes, yes. You make Mondays so much better.

We have a fantastic guest to help us break down this episode, the wonderful Alison Raskin. It returns. Hello. Thank you for having me back. Author of Overthinking About You, an excellent relationship book. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah, I love it. I'll just soak it in. How you been? I've been good. I'm excited to talk about this week's episode. Yeah, it was triggering. Yeah, it was a doozy. Yeah.

Well, we have a lot to discuss about that. Before we do, Allie, do we have? We have a little bit of Bachelor tea. Something, I guess a couple things. Some updates on our most recent Bachelor couple, Nate, Michelle. Nate has moved to Los Angeles. So welcome, Nate. And apparently he's sharing a place with Rodney.

So I feel like a lot of the guys of that season have just, they're really like. I place with Rodney so I feel like a lot of the guys of that season have just they're really like I've seen Rodney a few times maybe

I've never met Nate maybe I'll get a chance to meet him it's so funny to me because I feel like on the show they're always like sometimes there's like

one person who's being really antagonistic who's like I didn't come here to make friends and it's like but you kind of did the friends you make

on the show turn out to be your lifelong friends and maximum a person you date for. I think most people, like the I don't come to make friends has died down. Has kind of died down. They're like, yeah. I think it's always a great sign when you can tell that the contestant is liked by the other people.

Yeah. That when I like see like a front runner clearly has friends in the house, I'm like, oh, I'm interested. Yes. I like this. I don't know though. It can go both ways though. ways though tell me more well the house can be a bully oh and depending on like on andy season i like i wasn't i had like markel and jj and i was kind of friends with josh but like and i ended up becoming friends with chris. But it was like a very bro-y house. Like it was a bunch of guys who liked to drink a lot of alcohol and I didn't.

And like if you weren't part of that group, you were kind of an outsider. So I'm a little hesitant to like based off an edit off of that show to like decide who I like versus I don't like versus like who's the cool kid and who's an outsider. No, yeah, that makes sense. I guess there's like moments though when like you've seen people be upset and then you see like who consoles them in a way and I always like those moments where you can be like oh this person like genuinely cares about this other person

or has empathy and that I always am like I remember like Hannah Brown someone was upset and like Hannah Brown came in and like you could tell that they were like relieved Hannah was there to like help them through it. Yeah. When you see someone show empathy for sure. Yeah.

I think that definitely is something that reads true for sure. But Nate is apparently going to get into modeling. I'm shocked. He's still doing tech sales. So modeling is now going to be his hobby. It's only a matter of time. It was weird that he wasn't modeling. Yeah.

Someone should have scouted him in a mall. You know? I feel like someone probably already has many times. Probably. People just approach him. He's exceptionally good looking. Yeah. So maybe we'll be seeing him on a billboard near us soon.

I remember the first time we were watching his season and he came on the screen and now he was like, oh. I was the first time we were watching a season and he came on the screen and now he was like, oh, I was like, oh, what? So speaking of bachelor model men,

Tyler Cameron with his new girlfriend, Paige Lorenz. Paige, there was a little bit of speculation because there were some recent photos

of the two of them out in New York and people were accusing her of calling the paparazzi or like having these photos be really staged. And she was kind of like going, holding her ground in the comments, I will say. Like she was very much.

She fought back. Yeah, she was saying like, quote, I would probably look better in them if I did set it up. They looked great. I feel like calling the paparazzi, fine. Fine. Right? It's been done.

It's been done. It's been done. Huge celebrities do it. Like sometimes you make money directly from it. Sometimes like you just get, you're in the public eye a little bit more. Like it's all a game. Well, that's the thing. It's funny that you said, yeah. It's definitely a thing.

Like real celebrities do it all the time. I always just find it funny because like, obviously with reality TV stars becoming more, you know, in the, in the scene, like, you know, it's just,

I think it's just one of those things, whether it's bachelor nation or maybe, you know, like your Bravo nation or whatever. I think they're just that much more critical of their stars. If you want to call them that, you know, in a sense where it's just like,

no one would do this no one would point it out for an actor i also just feel like the paparazzi has so much less power now because like celebrities have access to social media so you're seeing inside your house like you're seeing people in their pajamas like you're getting the intimacy that i feel like paparazzi photos used to provide they still. They still are out there. But I will say, I don't really care whether she did or didn't, but they do look attractive in those photos. Are they just attractive people, though?

They are both very attractive people. Like, Tyler Cameron could poop and it'd probably look great. You know? I guess. The arm over the shoulder, while cute, is also a very challenging way to walk. I hate it. I hate the arm over the shoulder while cute is also a very challenging way to walk i hate it i hate an arm over my shoulder and i feel bad about it is weird too any sort of being held but it looks good but it also is very hard to do it's not a practical wall no no like sometimes when you're doing a photo shoot the photographer will be like do this to like hold your arm this

way and i'm like they're like don't trust arm this way. And I'm like, they're like, no, trust me. It looks good. It's like, and I feel like walking with your arm over their shoulder is one of those things that looks good, but also just feels bad. Unless you're the perfect height. I think there's a few situations where you line up really perfectly. And it's... Natalie's the perfect height.

She's 5'9". I'm 6'2". Not for that, necessarily. But I don't like... Her shoulder is right around... But it's still weird. We can do it, but it's... I feel like there's just been a few times

where I've been like, wow, this is surprisingly comfortable. And it's not been what I would have expected. Anyways, Tyler and Paige, attractive people. Doing attractive stuff. Doing attractive things. Everything just becomes attractive automatically. Maybe they're just too good looking for their own good. That they will always look like they staged it.

Yeah. I have two friends like that where every time they walk towards me, I think I'm in a catalog. Yeah. It's just like they just have that look. Well, wish them the best. Well, I just got back from a two-week road trip that included going to europe and i tell you what away saved the day got so many compliments from our away suitcases

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Wow. It was triggering. You know, when they announced that they were going to be two bachelorettes and they were like, but we're not going to pit them against each other. I naively was like, Oh,

okay. Like I like, I don't know why I believed that, but they like have no, the lack of, um, clear guidance for them has to be so harrowing right that they didn't they like they keep being like like what do we do you know like what this is a formatted show and they're given like no guidance it felt a bit um forced the drama yeah like in

particular i don't want to jump ahead too much but you know that group date where they were showing rachel having the best time connecting with guy after guy and then poor gabby each conversation is just a guy saying i want to be with rachel but there were plenty of men there who wanted to be with gabby like that, that's the producer sending those guys in, guy after guy. Right, and like, even though the date with Eric ultimately went well, and I'm sure we'll get into it more, it was still, she had a moment of like, having some stuff really unearthed and be like,

felt in a big way. So I feel like she's already coming at this from like, the classic Bachelorette exhaustion, and then she's like, emotionally depleted from this experience. And then it was like, back to back to back yeah and it's weird because like like you said like you know we were told they were not we're not going to pit them against each other and but they're like they're like covertly doing it

they're almost like pitting them against themselves like in their own like their own insecurities and just by default having another lead to share the stage with it's just something that they are doing on their own right like they're not they're not making the women compete per se like they would have to like pit them against each other etc etc or having they but it's this it's just more covert right and like so that's the plausible deniability and also the fact that i think they're genuinely friends and they seem to you know be there for each other and they don't want to fight with each other but i mean it's that classic thing of like you're in middle school and

the guy you have a crush on likes your friend you're not mad at your friend but you still feel terrible it's still the yeah i kind of also hated and i and I think this is just a product of how movies are or TV shows, but just how much the show made rejection the horrific thing that we all act like it is, right? This idea that, oh, well, a simple like, hey, you're great, but I might be more into them. The show is all about getting rejected. It was all about Gabby and Rachel at different parts of the episode being told that I'm more into someone else. And like, how does that make you feel? And I just, I really hated how, how like, you know, and I'm sure like they were constantly asked, how does that make you feel? And they were just honest. And then it was framed in a way that it was like so negative. And obviously on the show, we, we talk about rejection a lot and how it's way more clarity than anything. And then you're triggering your ego and things like that, where it's just like getting information about where you stand with someone should be a great thing. And yeah, it can be hard to hear. And I just hate that they made, like think about all the people watching it who want to shoot their shot or who want to go for it.

And we're constantly saying like, listen, the only thing you're risking is a little bit of rejection, but that's okay. Like you'll get your information, you can move on. Maybe something good will happen. And it's not the end of the world. And they made it seem like a little bit of clarity around like finding out who's vibing with you and who's not is the end of the world. And I just,

I personally like hated that. In regular life, if you have a great connection with two people, you're like, oh my God, I'm so lucky. Like there's two people I like, but on this show, it's like, oh, 16 people don't like me. Something must be wrong with me. Sure. Yeah. Right. Or just like hearing it three, three times in a row when you're expecting to like use your very limited time that you have in general to make any type of connections.

This early on, there's still like they're talking about having a record setting number of men on a group date. Like there's so many people and you want to make connections and so but instead they had these women talk to the guys that i'm assuming they knew were into the other oh definitely and i feel like they probably told the guys like hey like you don't want to come off like a fuck boy who's like trying to play both of them like i feel like they really primed the guys to bring it up and we're like hey this is like for you so that way you don't look like a player and set it up because like hayden and jacob right like i agree with you amanda i think they both

came in there thinking oh and like i'm just going to be honest i don't want to be thought of as a fuck boy and i think i think you have a bunch of guys terrified of being viewed as fuckboys. And so when they showed Gabby hanging out with the men while Rachel was on a one-on-one date, and Gabby was like, these guys aren't talking to me, I feel like it had a lot to do with the men also don't know what they should be doing and are also not getting guidance. So Jacob, though, it's just like, in what world is saying, if there's no one else here, I still wouldn't pick you?

I don't know. Like, if I'm trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, it's just like diarrhea of the mouth. But like, how did you not? Like, how could? How? Why is that necessary? Even the way they like wrapped up that conversation, he was like, let's just go back in there and have a great time. Let's go have a great time. I'm like, did he cheers her too? Yeah, he kind of gestured with his drink.

He didn't really know what to do. It was so out of touch that I got to wonder if he had a very different impression of what the expectations of that conversation were. And he literally said, obviously, you're smoking. I loved that every guy that turned someone down was like, but said obviously you're smoking i loved that every guy that turned someone down was like but also you're so hot like yeah as like a band-aid that was a really that was really not great no it wasn't yeah it was like it's just don't worry it's just your personality oh and then like yeah the hate and the rough around the edges also in what again like maybe you got set up i don't know maybe you thought you were like trying not to be a fuckboy but in what world is calling anyone rough around the edges you mean like

imagine like if it was like a guy you're just like you know it's just like i just have a better sense of humor than you you know like it's like saying something like that it's just like okay i guess i also think the fact that it was hayden, I felt very betrayed because he has such like kind English teacher energy. I assumed he was a teacher. And then it's like leisure executive. It's like, oh, the leisure executive came out tonight. You think he's like the one who's like taking you after class and like giving you a book like that's not on the syllabus.

Like, hey, I think this is really going to connect with you. And then he's like, you're rough around the edges. And you're like, excuse you? After this episode, he seemed very frat boy, boat shoes. No books were given. Yeah. No books. No books.

He wears khakis and polo shirts and he has the things around the glasses. And he gets so much credit for having a sweetie boy smile. Yeah. Yeah, he's like grocery store Joe with a very different soul. Yeah. What did you think about rachel keeping him i think she can't get rid of everybody right i felt a little weird about it um but i also think that maybe it had something to do with how few people were left for her to pick from but i

yeah also like they made her get rejected. Right. How many times? Three or four times? Three times, yeah. And taken away those roses. The taking it. Oh, my God. Don't you think she should have been able to keep the roses and give them to someone else? Absolutely, I do. Except that, again, like, there's only so many beds.

There's only so many plane tickets. Yeah. I also love how Avon was blown away by everything. Couldn't comprehend. Yeah. I love Avin. I know, he's great. But it's like every little thing is like, no way.

You just got back? Yeah. No way. Yeah, seeing the guy's reaction during the rose ceremony was really kind of delightful. It was endearing. It was like. I also felt like Avin had a moment that I really picked up on when it was just him and like one other person waiting outside. And then on when it was just him and like one other person waiting outside.

And then another, it was like him and Zach. And then another guy walks out and the two of them are like celebrating. And he's like, Hey, Hey, like be respectful. And I was like,

Oh, like, it's so hard to be the one who's like, Hey, be quiet guys. And he did in such a kind way. You know, you know that Tino and Avon,

I think we can lock them in for final four. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Because they also, not only you seeon, I think we can lock them in for Final Four. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because they also, not only you see the, I mean, the connection between Tino and Rachel, like when he's like, I'm here for you,

like she was like, I'm... Put a ring on my finger. And he's also very handsome. Oh, yeah. And being skilled in construction, huge asset. He's exceptionally handsome. The tub, the freestanding tub that he could put in the bathroom. Oh, yeah. And being skilled in construction, huge asset.

He's exceptionally handsome. The tub, the freestanding tub that he could put in the bathroom. Nothing more romantic than that. All your DIY projects? I mean, sign me up. It's not a coincidence that when Avon simply said, I'm here for you, and then you saw Tino say, I'm here for you, that's the only sound bite you got. That's all you saw.

You heard very, you heard very romantic music. And the other guys who tried to attempt to say the same thing, and it went very differently. Of course, they actually, I'm correct. Tino and Avin said it to Rachel, where the other guys said it to Gabby. And that's another thing where it's just like, said it to Rachel where the other guys said it to Gabby. And that's another thing where it's just like I was disappointed. No guys really shined. Even Eric, I was really disappointed.

I thought he did okay when Gabby got sad, but I feel like that was a real opportunity to just shine. And he didn't. He didn't say anything

well because even at the beginning before she even left the table not knowing that she was gonna up and stand up and leave i was like say something help her and then i'm like i'll give him the benefit of the doubt there that can be awkward or hard yeah i mean it's the first one on one i like i mean when i was on my first one-on-one with Andy, I still thought I was hanging out with a celebrity. It was a very weird feeling. Do you think he should have followed her? No. I just think she left.

She was probably gone for a good 20 minutes. He probably went in and did an ITM. I would assume for all the producers and the things they I would assume like, you know, for all the producers and I'm sure, you know, the things they say that were like, oh, they probably set them up or manipulated them. They also are there to try to make these guys look good. Like you do get a lot of like nervous contestants who don't know what to say. So like some of the very romantic things you hear are also probably from like the producers. I mean, they love it when someone comes who's in their feelings and can say things

and can speak from the heart. They would love it. But often there's a lot of people who either are too nervous or incapable of doing that. And so they might throw him a bone. And I just thought like he had all this time to kind of prep, you know, a good probably 10 to 20 minutes while Gabby's off.

The sun went down. So it was quite a good amount of time. To be like, okay, she's upset. She just poured her heart out. I want to like, you know,

make her feel good and just say, you know, I can only imagine what that must be like. But I, in the little time I've met you, like you just radiate, you know, and just start spilling out all these compliments.

Start talking about how you... Affirming her. Yeah, and you're so special. It's so obvious. Even the way you handled yourself with Harper. There's the Clayton of it all. It would have been so easy for him to just really let Gabby know

that he sees her and just... Build build her up and it just fell flat I I was like watching and I was like no he's gonna you know because we saw we see a very charming guy in Eric a very confident guy who seems pretty good at like talking to like he'd like he'd be good at talking to women so I thought even if it was like disingenuous I thought he would be good at talking to women. So I thought even if it was like disingenuous, I thought he would be able to like throw some game her way. But like it was just kind of like, yeah, I think you're great. Oh, Missouri. Oh, they are saving the day when it comes to jewelry

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Gabby to say that her mom's no longer a part of her life like those are really fundamental losses like I mean all all we do in psychology is talk about the importance of your connection with your primary caregiver right and and yeah and so I think maybe for Eric, like maybe he had never heard someone say that before and, and not know, you know, because what do you say, right? It's different than saying like, oh, my, my parent passed away where I think maybe we have like more, you know, experience and like, oh, I'm so sorry for your loss. Like, I'm sure they loved you. Like, you know, they were probably looking down. Like, we sort of have the vocabulary to talk about that.

Some people aren't, can't sit in discomfort. That's totally true. And I don't think he's like a bad guy for not doing it. I'm just like, it was just a bummer. I thought it was a real missed opportunity for him. And I think it speaks to that they might not be compatible. Yeah. Like, I think he would be perfectly compatible with a lot of people,

but I think she's going to need somebody, like you said, who in those moments can build her up, who can sit with that discomfort, who can give her more. And just saying something like, I can only imagine what that must be like, but I can't imagine no that must be like but you know like I can I can't imagine like no one like I see you know just like just say that you know just empathize like just recognize for a moment that that you know like and I don't know because I feel like and they kind of made it seem

like at the end like oh and then they made up and it was fine I was like no Gabby self-soothed effectively right and then she came back and then she felt relief from having self-soothed. And then they were able to enjoy themselves. It wasn't him. I kind of hate it. Yes. Yeah. You took the words out of my mouth and you articulated it better.

But like, it was just more like, wait, because I was like, she was like giving him credit for the thing I wanted him to do, but he didn't do. And she's like, I feel seen. I'm like, but he didn't. I wanted him to make you feel seen i wonder though if she gets comfort and physical affection right because like afterwards she sat on his lap maybe that made her feel safe like yeah like he was rubbing her back like he didn't show up for her you know like emotionally or with language but he did show up for her in his body and in their physical connection.

Maybe that soothes her. Maybe. Yeah. Interesting. But I'd like to see a little bit more. I don't think that they're a good match because of that, but I understand where they were both coming from. Do you see anyone that might be a good match for Gabby at this point?

Because I honestly thought Eric was my frontrunner for that just because he seems to have a little sass. She has some sass. I think Nate is a great option for Gabby. I like Nate for Gabby, but weren't you a little concerned because she had this great date with Nate? And I get getting rejected is never fun. Right. But off

the heels, like when you are in that world and you make a connection with someone, it's like it feels good because you are, you know, in the back of your mind, I'm just looking for one. You're like, yeah, I have all these boyfriends or girlfriends if you're the bachelor. But the end of the day, I'm just trying to fall in love with one. And you know pretty quickly when you meet one of these guys or women if you're the bachelor that they could be the one. So when I was watching the beginning of the episode, we saw Gabby. She kind of seemed so upset after like talking to these guys. so upset after like talking to these guys i was either like either she's not as into nate as i i thought she might be all right we want her to be or she's really good at playing up this

insecurity and i don't think she's playing up the insecurity because otherwise you don't really care you know you have your person i just felt like you would think that she, off the heels of this amazing date with Nate, would feel that assurance. I don't think that, I think if you're dealing with the kind of trauma that Gabby clearly has around rejection and abandonment, I don't think having one good date with someone

is going to protect you from being upset the next day. That's true. Well, I also think the fact that Nate is a dad is like something that Gabby expressed a lot of hesitancy around. Just like, I don't know if I'm ready to be a mom. Like that's a different commitment for a relationship. I do think Jason, though, he's been kind of like the, he's an investment banker from Santa Monica.

But he's, I mean, we haven't seen him. No, but I don't even know who you're talking about him no they talked about him and i clocked him this this episode for sure and he's very handsome and like but like i said last week they i think he's too quiet for his own good and i think there's a world in which either of them might be attracted they both pointed out that they're attracted to him but like when he was on that very small group date last week he like you saw the beginning of both those conversations and they like cut away from it and that's because there must not have been much there and then you have this episode he's on these dates once again don't see any real

interactions and so we're we're all just like waiting for what is like this attractive guy that like on paper you think one of them might be into and it's just not resonating and i i will be shocked if jason's still here in a couple weeks not my name with nate's final four for sure yeah i think that with the native at all is she's got to just come to terms with if she's ready to date someone with a kid. And that's something we can't answer or predict because it's such a personal decision. Yeah. And I don't know if she's there.

I suspect they'll make that, they'll ram that storyline down her throat. Yeah, it does kind of feel like somehow Rachel ended up with all of the kind of classic romantics that you see on the season, like Zach on their one-on-one, like he really had the energy of like the Bachelorette heartthrob. They were like crying. Tyler, again, Bachelorette heartthrob. And then like all of these guys who just seem very like romantic in the way that the people who tend to go far in the show like look like for me.

I don't like calling it romantic i would say more traditional yeah it's like something about that because like roman you can be romantic all different ways but yeah in a way that like reads on tv very specifically you know like like love like storybook romance as opposed to like a more raw like humor like what what hayden would call rough around the edges I might call like more charismatic or or spontaneous where Rachel might be more like traditional and like in her feelings and you know like but like yeah I think you're you know like you know I'm not but like personality wise Gabby's way more like my speed personality wise. Like, you know, and I

think, I just think this show often cast, you're very, you know, kind of traditional, you know, people. And like, I think also on this show, there is this inherent fear of how people, how you're going to be perceived. And so you, I can see them being drawn to someone who they find to just play the more demure role rather gabby is like kind of she owns like her spunkiness i love how she says how like i mean she plays it up more than i think she needs to by saying she's like not well how did she just describe herself like the imperfect imperfect bachelorette she also said rachel was easier yeah yeah i feel like she's selling herself way too short but like i think you know listen like like the imperfect. Imperfect Bachelorette. She also said Rachel was easier. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like she's selling herself way too short.

But like, I think, you know, listen, like in that world, I always felt like the outlier. You get the Ben Higgins. It's just like, just because I like, you know, was not so buttoned up and like, but also like in that world, like compared to that world, I'm pretty like straight-laced guy. Standard guy. Yeah.

But like in Bachelor World, it's like edgy, bad boy. Okay. And I think Gabby's feeling that kind of judgment from that bubble. Yeah. I mean, also our perceptions of ourselves are so different than how other people perceive us. So like, who knows? She might have always, she might have just had this narrative about herself that she is really difficult and that she is someone that is harder to love. And I think it's very obvious where that comes from for her, even though I'm sure the people around her don't feel that way. And so sometimes the journey is making the way you feel about yourself be more aligned with the way everyone else already sees you instead of actually having to change. Yeah. Totally. What happened to Mario? to change. Yeah. Totally.

What happened to Mario? No idea. Zero camera time. Where is he? I think he made a real mistake by flirting with Rachel like that. That's what I said. I wasn't into that. I just feel like you get the first impression, Rose.

I know it's early, but I feel like as stupid as it sounds, in that world, it's kind of a big deal. And to be gifted that first impression rose and still act like you're unsure of what direction you want to go was kind of a miss for Mario. Would you if you were if this was your season and you looked back and saw that the person you ended up with for the first few episodes was like wavering between both leads, would that bother you? I mean, it's hard because I can't imagine like, you know, so I have to visualize being like the bachelor with Ben or something. No, I don't. I really don't think so.

It would bother me. Listen, I as a listen, I like to your point, like there's there's your something happens. You feel like a sense of rejection. There's that initial feeling we feel that just is an inherent feeling. Then there's the mature level head. You kind of talk to yourself and be like, you know what? I'm going to try to empathize and put myself in their shoes what it's like. I guess it's all to say if I liked the person and i felt a connection i'd get over it

yeah like and i definitely wouldn't like you know get over it and then bring it up later in the relationship you know what i'm saying like i wouldn't use it as a might i wish they would have not early on i guess but i i think more more realistically i think to your point if if it's someone you were like kind of on the like depending on how how gabby made her decision give the first impression rose like a lot of especially the bachelorettes give it to what seems to be their clear front runner of the night so many of these guys have ended up winning if tina wins i i'll if he doesn't win i'll be shocked you know but gabby might like i could picture Gabby being like you

know and I don't want to give it to my favorite I don't want to out that person that you know like I I had a strong connection with Rachel but I probably like night one still like Vanessa was probably my my front runner night one but I I was just like I was looking for who else besides my front runner am I really connecting with right so Gabby might have done that and then she sees and then she sees like uh Mario doing that and thinking I was on the fence about you and you're doing this bullshit like I gave you my first impression rose and that that wouldn't surprise me I could and if that was the case I could see me being quickly turned off yeah and and kind of feeling like I wasted this first impression rose on you.

I could see that for sure. I think for me, it would really matter how similar I felt I was to the other lead. So if I felt like I had a completely different personality than the other lead, then it would be really strange to me. Whereas if I felt very similar to the other lead, then it wouldn't bother me as much. Yeah, I'm with you. You know, the argument is like it's so early on they don't know,

but I'm more in agreement with you because like Gabby and Rachel are so different in so many ways. I would think that if I were on their season, I would like know like just personally, I'd be like, okay, well, I just personally, I'd be like, okay, well, I just personally, I don't know if I'm going to be like, if it's going to work out with either of them,

but like, I know that who's more. Yeah. Your vibe, my vibe, you know? And I think it must be clear to most of these, these guys early on.

So I don't know. It wasn't, it wasn't for meatball, at least not till the end. And then he made a strong choice. It was interesting to me that first of all all, Meatball, hilarious in general, but that he was like, yeah, I don't know. And then I could go with either one.

And then when Rachel offered him a rose, he was like, no, I'm suddenly Team Gabby. Wasn't that weird? Yeah. I mean, I thought the whole rose ceremony was super. And then them having to go back into the line. Like it was probably Probably nothing changed. It's just what we saw. And I wonder how much of it was strategy on their part versus connection.

Because you got to know that Rachel has these. The guys. Yeah. Because Rachel has these really strong front runners. Like Zach and Tino. And I would argue Tyler. Like she's got some. And Avon.

Like she's got some ringers. Versus like Gabby. It probably seems a little bit more like. Okay, yes, Nate is clearly in the lead, but there's a little bit more seats at the table. I mean, Nate, Eric, and... I guess Mario, just because he got the first impression rose. I guess we've been seeing them say Johnny is hot. Spencer's in Gabby's camp, right?

Spencer's a looker's camp, right? Spencer's a, he's a looker. Yeah, he is. I gotta say, you know, you thought Tyler was an ex-bachelor, Amanda, because he has Ben Higgins vibe.

After this episode, I could not think you were more off. Why? His rejection went first, though. And it was done and framed in the most kind way. It has nothing to do with that.

I think just his energy and just, I just don't see lead material. Maybe not. I'll probably. Mom's going to yell at me now. I like him a lot. And I also love him.

You like Tyler. I do. He just looks like such a sweetie. And I have a history of dating boys from New Jersey. But I also just think it's very adorable what he does for a living. I think he's very adorable what he does for a living i think he's very sweet i think that's an example of how you handle letting someone down well right like his conversation with gabby was like flawless i thought yeah he didn't unnecessarily hurt her he didn't give her

any reason other than i just feel a stronger connection with rachel he didn't like say anything about it and it's because of this blank about you. Like I thought he handled that really well. I mean, compared to the other guys. There was a low bar though. Yeah, I thought it was fine. I wasn't like, oh, that's a, you know. I also thought it was weird that that was like they sat down.

It was like the first thing they did. But isn't that, I would think, I would appreciate that. I don't want to have like a five minutes of getting to know your family only for you to then say you prefer Rachel. Yeah.

True. Time is precious. Right? Time's of the essence. I guess. So it's just the don't tell them that they're around the edges.

Right. Like you don't need to say anything other than I feel really connected to Rachel. That's it, right? Yeah. Don't say, if you were the only one here, I would leave. Yeah.

That was unbelievable. And you could tell, like, as Jacob was saying that, that he really thought that they were, like, having a cool, like, friend moment. That, like, Gabby must think this was, like, interesting, too. I would be curious how that whole conversation actually went. But like just the fact that Gabby was clearly upset. You knew that regardless of how it was cut

that clearly that was the tone in which he that was the lasting impression that he left with Gabby. She did a good job though of taking those conversations in stride. For sure. Like I don't know like if you're not that emotionally intelligent maybe Jacob thought that like she truly didn't care oh I don't think he was you like I don't think he had

any it's clear to me that they like Hayden and and Jacob didn't think how like regardless, you know, even if you think she probably doesn't like me, I'm just letting him know. I don't know. But they didn't go in there with any thought of I'm about to essentially reject someone. how they might receive it and be careful because like it might sting as opposed to pretending that it's not a big deal and they're going to be best pals. Like there was no, there was no thought of empathy at all. Well, I wonder if it gets to like what you said when you were on your first one-on-one with Andy, where she felt like a celebrity, like maybe, you know, it's the way that people like leave mean comments in your YouTube video

thinking that you're not a real person who reads them. Like maybe they think that they're like untouchable because they're still the bachelorettes. There could be that. And the rough around the edges

thing to me is incredibly revealing of who Hayden is as a person. Yes. And that he wants his women, he wants women to behave a certain way. Yes. And if women don't behave a certain way yes and if

women don't behave a certain way then they are not good enough for him it's also yeah it's his expectations of how he thinks the women he dates should act exactly and i guess it goes along with what you were saying earlier of like you became the bad boy because in this bubble it's so like perfect in every regard but i'm like i don't even think Gabby's that rough around the edges. All people can talk about is... She's got a little spunk. She makes jokes. She makes jokes. She's been nothing but composed.

She could go to a debutante ball right now and probably pass the entire thing. That's what I'm saying. It's so hyperbolic as, as I often say, but it's, and it's highly like,

yeah, it's, it's silly. But I think it taps into what she fears about herself. Oh, totally. And that's what's so upsetting. You know,

it's not an accident. Yeah. It's like Hayden wants a plus one, not a partner. Yeah. It was a real bad episode for, for Hayden. Yeah. That's why that, that's why that that's why i

felt i i get why why rachel kept him but i don't think i would have i think that that comment in itself would have been a really really big red flag for me like i almost thought when gabby told told rachel as they were leaving the group date that rachel was going to go back and dump them both right then. I believe she probably would have. I think Gabby, it was very clear that she didn't want that. And then by the time the rose ceremony happened, my guess is if it was 100% her choice, she probably would have gotten rid of him. You know, like we do want like we want drama we want people to

root against it wouldn't shock me if if if we see hayden step in it a few more times before he's unceremoniously sent home even if it's just like one more episode to like get some drama out of hayden and like you know like you always have to like once something happens you have to wait for it to like make its way around the house and let the rumor... All the guys are saying, what happened? Why did the energy change? And someone's like, well, Hayden fucked up.

Something like that. And then that's how you get the conversation. I think Rachel is taking one for the team, is my guess, I think Rachel is taking one for the team, is my guess, to allow Hayden to fuck up, is my guess. Do you think she also just wanted a guarantee, too, after being rejected three times? Like, she's heard that he's there for her? I think that's what people will say.

Okay. But I'm guessing she doesn't give a shit about him at all. And again, I think it's like, I don't doubt these women were feeling rejected. I also don't think that they truly like were losing sleep over it. I've seen it before where it's just like you, when you're on these dates,

it's kind of like you're at work in a sense. And you feel the pressure of the bubble. And then you leave it and there's like a decompression. And maybe you're just like talking about life back at home. And so like you kind of escape. Kind of reset overnight. Maybe they are. I don't really know.

But like it also wouldn't surprise me if maybe the show is playing it up a little bit more than is happening in reality. Because that's what they do. I thought it was really interesting when Rachel said that thing about when she found out she was going to be one of the Bachelorettes and her parents said, can you handle this emotionally? And she said, yeah. And now she was questioning if she could handle it emotionally and that to me just like I felt that was such a relatable moment about like so many things in life where you're like oh yeah I can do this and then it's happening you're like oh no can I not do this oh I mean it's it's it's a very like being the lead is I mean it's one of the hardest things

I've ever done both physically and emotionally and I can and I think right, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done, both physically and emotionally. And I can, and I think right now, it's incredibly hard on both of them, to your point. How do we feel like it's going to work now that there are two kind of distinct camps of guys? I mean, like, obviously, they're all going to still travel together because they have to keep the bachelorettes together. But it's like, I feel like it's going to be interesting to see how they're like i would almost rather be friends with someone from the other camp because we're not competing for the same woman as opposed to like i don't know i think that will be really interesting to see how it goes and again where do they get their their drama now that's how i kind of always wonder how like it's i'm always asking

myself where are they going to get their drama next week? It's like you wake up in the middle of the night. Where will they get their drama? When I'm sitting here wondering about the show. But yeah, like I'm, I'm curious about that, you know?

And so like how, how will that play a role? Because that's, that's what it's all about when we're watching it. It's, it's really all like everything. It's all based off of, watching it. It's really all based off of that. I mean, a last-minute switch, a last-minute request to move. I know.

I was wondering if that's going to happen. I think Logan is going to switch camps. Oh, absolutely. If you were to put money on one person flipping, yeah. I think Logan got Rachel's rose because, again, last week, Rachel was feeling insecure, and we saw that being forced and, and this, and,

and that was based, based off of like this one date, Gabby got some attention and probably people were asking like, Rachel, how do you feel? Like, could you, you know,

no one likes you, you know? And, and then so she, Logan makes out with both. He's just, he's clearly like playing the field And Rachel Before Gabby could say

Oh I made out with him too I was like oh I kissed him And then you could tell Gabby was just like He's yours then And I don't know if Well she said it's not worth Stepping on Rachel's toes I think she felt that Rachel Had stronger feelings for Logan than she did.

And then Gabby gave hers to Johnny on that group date. And then now they're each. Just on paper, I mean, we don't know. But like doesn't Logan seem like a better match for Gabby anyway? I don't have a sense of him. I don't know because she has Johnny. And look at Johnny's headshot. Johnny is just an interesting dude.

They both got some wavy locks. Yeah, but I could see them being more like, you know, Logan, he is very kind of like animate. He's less, seems less traditional. And like you, I could see Logan, he's kind of jokester energy, maybe connecting with Gabby, who's also like you know but I don't find Rachel to be so traditional I guess like you know she's like a

pilot like that's pretty cool yeah I just mean like you know the personality do you find I don't know I don't find Rachel to be like so buttoned up I find her like she jokes and stuff I don't know I actually find them more similar than I think people paint them out to be because if you watch their energy when it's just the two of them and like them living together and having these conversations like they both have the fire

and and like Rachel always finds Gabby's jokes funny which says something too yes you know what I mean oh she's funny yeah right but like like she laughs hard like i almost wonder like would she make more jokes like that off camera too like if well that's possible too i mean like yeah the not everyone is exactly the same on camera and off too i think part of the thing also is that i noticed is that rachel is very generous in her reactions to like when the men, when they're talking and also in like asking follow-up questions. And that's not to say Gabby isn't at all,

but I think with Rachel, sometimes there's a little bit more of this, like the way she gets to know people is through this like very like soft-spoken, kind, empathetic, warm, encouraging versus like with Gabby, she's a little bit more like, I'm throwing it out there and seeing if you pick up

what I put down type thing and so I think that's maybe also part of it is that like to me Rachel has come across as like I just feel like I see her talk less than Gabby even though it's probably not true at all that's just like from the clips that we've gotten my impression. Yeah I mean that's the thing

we only can respond to what we're being shown like you know we haven't had the pleasure of meeting either of them in person yet but i just feel like if someone's going to make a switch because i don't see the connection between rachel and logan all that much yeah and i think there is going to be i think there's going to be a rejection and that guy is going to try to stay on the show by switching camps. And we also still have that moment between Zach and Jesse Palmer

when Zach is like crying and Jesse's like, well, what are you going to do? And it's like, I'll have to tell her. That was on a one-on-one. Rachel, we saw that in like the super tease. He's talking to Jesse and it's like, well, how are you going to approach this or what are we going to do?

And he's like, I have to tell her. I think that's not going to be much of anything. It could be. Who knows? It could be like, I'm in love. Yeah, exactly. Truly. Or it's like, my dog is sick.

It felt like he got very close to saying something very intense in an ITM on the one-on-one when he was like, I just like, I'm feeling. Oh, yeah. Some kind of. And like, it was like, like you weren't gonna say you're falling for her oh for sure he was like that day to me was like the definition of of how one like can fall in love so fast in that world like go on a date get play dress up and then watch like like for a first date and you're watching what typically happens at a wedding yeah you know i was like this is what hometowns should be this is every single hometown should include a slideshow baby photos and videos sure but like to do it on your

first date like i don't i don't fault zach for seeming like because i'm sure he he will get a little bit of flack being like oh god you're one day you're falling in love whatever but like that is how you you get someone to to like again like he probably rachel celebrities the bachelorette first date he's been in this world for like a week and then he's just like vibing with her and he's like oh my god he's like i think she i mean there's something there's something there and like you feel, and then he's just like vibing with her, and he's like, oh my God, he's like, I think she, I mean, there's something there. And like, when he was like saying something,

oh, there's something real, like he very much believed that, because he felt a tangible feeling, a tangible connection between the two, and that's what he was speaking on. Now, is it real love? You can sit there and debate, like how much you know about someone, and et cetera, et cetera.

But he felt a true, tangible like connection between him and Rachel. And I suspect Zach is going to be Mr. Heartbroken at the end of this season.

I think you can almost describe it as like manufactured intimacy. Yeah. Right? Because like if you're sitting next to somebody and you're both crying,

but you're crying for different reasons, right? Because he's crying because he's seeing his mom and she's crying because she's seeing her mom. You're like, oh, we're sharing this experience, even though you're crying about different things. I mean, it's not that like when they were both like, oh, my dad used to take me to the airport. Like it's not that unique. I mean, it's I think a lot of kids have done that but they're to share that experience was like i mean zach acted like both their dads like took him to

mount everest and they visited like at age eight and they visit the exact same spot it's like we were on the same tour and we didn't know it rachel carved an r and a piece of wood and zach saw that piece of wood like That was the R? That was you? Oh, my God. That's how Zach acted. But I totally get why he acted that way because it was such – it is. Listen, I know we talked a lot about the producers of this episode,

but they are making a TV show. They have to manufacture things. They are trying to get people to fall in love in eight weeks. And that's kind of how you do it it's a social experiment and i believe people can fall in love that quickly like i mean i think it's i i don't i have never felt like oh you can't possibly love somebody that you've met that you know for this short amount of time like i think you totally can i think it's just like the the durability is the question i mean like i've i've i've never like denied the feelings i've spoken on that show but i but like now that i'm out of that world i've reassessed what those

feelings were you know what i'm saying and And the legitimacy of those feelings, but they were real. I felt them, you know, and I didn't feel like I was saying them because I was on a TV show. I didn't feel disingenuous, but now that I left the show and I realized how much I didn't know about either of them and got to know them, I realized that I was responding to a feeling I was feeling. Now I, I wouldn't call that love today, but you know what I'm saying? I don't take back what I said. So, you know, so it's... Why wouldn't you call it love today? Because I look at love, I personally look at love as knowing someone. And I think love is having a sense of clarity and safety with someone. You never feel safe in that world. You never really

know how someone's feeling about you. And to me, to say, I'm in love with you and we are in love with each other is to speak on that as knowing how someone feels about you, having that feeling, knowing some of their things that irritate you about them. And you still, like, you don't know any of those things in that world. You just know all the them and you still like you don't know any of those things in that world you just know all the good stuff and what you don't know you fill in your mind with even more good stuff yeah and so you know again i i don't i'll never take it back you know i'll never say oh i wasn't really but like i reassess it differently now and into your point it's it's it just doesn't have the what was the word durability yeah like it's it we've seen it so easily break down and i don't think any of these

you know when people are getting engaged on the bachelor and you see that love it's it's all very real yeah you know they believe it i don't i think there's you know for the people getting actually engaged i don't think people are acting you you know, I, I don't either. Like viewing love is not just not like a feeling you have towards someone, but something that you build together, that it has to come from both sides. That's how I feel. I mean, people just describe love very differently. And I think we could, you know, we could do a whole series on it, but for me, yeah. You know, because, you know, people often will say like, when I say you'll, you know, we could do a whole series on it. But for me, yeah. You know, because, you know, people often will say like, when I say you'll, you'll hear it, you'll hear it again.

I'm sure this season, that's like one of my favorite things about the bachelor. People will say like, when I say, I love you, I, I only want to say it like one more time, or I only want, like, they will, they will set all these like crazy expectations on themselves and the word and yet still say it with so little information and like we've all you know but because you want it to feel important and and and that desire to want these actions and words that people are communicating or that i say like yeah and then maybe it's a product of being on that show and and saying it so quickly and falling in love so quickly that now

outside of it, like I, I hold a little bit more, not more weight, but I have a little more expectations of myself or what it will take for me to feel that feeling. And if I feel a connection with someone, I personally no longer describe it as love. I might describe it as like, like a strong intimacy or an infatuation or and like something there. But then I try to build on that and I try to get into like feeling like what do I have to really know that connection. And again, feeling safe that, you know, they feel the same about me because I feel like love needs to be reciprocated in order to really have it with someone. Yeah, I guess there's sometimes this feeling of like,

I wasted love, right? Like, oh, I've loved too many people, so therefore it couldn't have all been love. Oh, yeah, I definitely don't feel that way. I don't like that. I think that there's an unlimited capacity for love and there's so many different ways to love people. But I think that's like traditional dating society or the show and even

the show is is rooted in very old school dating methods right and like we're told that like you know and that's why you know that's why nowadays i think people are one of the reason people struggle so much with dating is this abundance of choices and these failed relationships and this self-judgment of it not working out and feeling like they've wasted this opportunity or, well, they have to get the next one right because I don't want to be that person. Because I have three exes.

What does that say about me? You tried? I don't know. Yeah, you kept putting yourself out there and you're really brave brave but we have a way of shaming a lot of people for trying to find love and and you you you see it obviously on this on the show um but yeah i do think zach will be mr heartbroken with rachel so you think she's not as into him as he is into her? I think he has strong runner-up energy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

I can't wait for Tino to propose. I think top four for sure. Like, it's Tino. Like, we already know it's Tino, right? They are perfect. I love them. They are perfect. They are two hot people who, like, seem really into each other.

But, yeah, sure. They're perfect. I love them. He's barely getting any screen time. He's getting enough. That's because he's going to win. Oh, interesting. Yeah. He's got just enough. He's got just enough to remind us that he's there.

Avin could be a runner-up or maybe third. I love Avin. I think there's more to Avin that we will explore. For sure. Listen, I think this episode was very telling about... I felt last week when we were picking top four, I was... Shot in the dark. No clue.

But now I feel like I have a very different... Once they separate it, I feel like I have a very different confidence level and who that top four is going to be, especially for Rachel. And yeah, Tino for for sure I think right now I mean it's still way early but like I think you see you have that you know and Zach is a little younger so I can see him falling really hard I don't know what his dating experience is or like his you know how many like serious relationships or heartbreak he's dealt with but like it would track you know if he's a like on the one of the younger guys who falls really hard and really believes it and gabby

i mean rachel likes him but like it's just not it's not tino you know and then i picture avan being a guy who she really likes and he really likes her but it's like the jason tardick with becca relationship i don't know if you remember that it was like it was good but it was never blake and it was never garrett you know it was just like a nice oh these two people like each other they look good together i when when i see him on a date i buy it but like when then you and then you see them talk one of the other people you're like yeah but it's not the same that's how i kind of see avon with rachel got it that's interesting would you put money on it those three for top well top four yes i'd put money on it how much you want to bet 20 bucks okay great a dollar not that confident uh sure we'll bet 20 bucks uh who are we thinking do you have do you disagree

i don't know if i disagree but i will say that i think that you know life's wild and i i don't feel comfortable making such sturdy claims okay i also i've been wrong before i also think that there is a possibility it is zach i I feel open to that. I agree. I agree. I think he's very stable. I think there is something about their dynamic that feels like in the chaos of what is filming this show, she might feel very safe with him. But I think it will probably also depend on her emotional journey and how much safety matters.

I also think when they had the photo shoot with the very sparse crowd of paparazzi. The four in a row. Who didn't even know how to hold the cameras. It's just so funny

because they made the sound effects really popped off at the beginning and then you like cut to and it's like four photographers. But I thought the way Zach was behaving where he was like very quick to like do the ta-da rachel jester and i think rachel is

someone who like really values not having to ask for attention but having it like it's a good observation to her yeah he like googled justin hartley on the red carpet was like i will do it all don't worry yeah i thought he was like you know, compare him to Eric. I thought he was way more like focused on like really making his date feel special. He was locked in. Yeah. And I think he has more personality than we're seeing because even just like right on that red carpet, he was silly and playful. Yeah, he has like a kind of like in a good way, like a kind of fun, dorky, playful energy. Yeah.

But like he looks like a, like a football player. Like, you know, like he, I think he has a nice blend of those things. I could be wrong, but I feel like heartbroken.

His future is heartbreak city. Oh no. What are we thinking for Gabby? I mean, I'm still, I'm going off a very little information it's fun to make these predictions uh gabby i mean we've only seen i think nate is in eric was the only connection real scene we've seen i with with eric you know it's like i don't

know if it's really strong you know it's kind of like i you know like with like you know but going back to michelle's season like nate like we saw like you saw like like the i'm backtracking but like rachel and and tino like you just saw like it's tino's is very much her type it's just so it's so hard in that world once you like catch eyes for someone to just to challenge yourself to like consider like to you know get out of your comfort zone it's just it's really hard to do because you have you have so little information and so i just you know but with with gabby um who else i mean yeah i i think it's more to be seen i'd like to see gabby and spencer i'd like to see more of them because spencer was the one who on night one came in with the chair and was like i know standing on heels yeah so i'm

like that was really high value gabby even said about spencer i hope yeah well like yeah like that he was her type or that she's like i hope rachel's on attractive yeah gabby can be like playing it like again like close to the vest i think i feel like mario got the first impression rose for different reasons than than tino and i i don't know if like mario was like out of the limo like gabby's front runner and i feel like but they kissed no I get it but not well I couldn't yeah I'm just guessing here um and I wonder if like you know maybe you know could be a Spencer or an Eric you know someone was like her and she just chose to like say I'm gonna I want to see who else impresses me because I don't want to I don't want to like give too much attention to my favorite. That's entirely possible. Is there something to not wanting to give the person you want to go to the first one-on-one date with the first impression rose because you can't do that?

Well, Greg did on Katie's season, which was rare. Right, that's pretty rare. Greg did the first, I thought Connor got the first. The order in which people go on dates is not something the leads would be aware of or thinking about. And the dates are, the order is irrelevant in the first five weeks because no one gets two one-on-ones in the first five weeks. And they do like, ideally, if they can, to match dates that fit the people on the dates. ideally, if they can, to match dates that fit the people on the dates. It's not always the case, but the order is not something the leads care too much about. So, yeah. I think it just, if that's what Gabby did, it was just a simple, like, her,

like, again, it just depends on Gabby's personality. Like, I deliberately didn't give vanessa a group date rose because i thought it would because i thought it would be funny to show how group date roses don't matter that was a little joke you were playing on everybody nick in the corner being like no it was just it was just just like I also knew that like the women knew That I was very into Vanessa So and I knew that Vanessa Like I knew she was confident

In my feelings for her And so yeah I was like I don't need to give her a group date Rose So was your whole season everyone just knew it was Vanessa From day one including all the other women I think if you I think after like week four or, a lot of people suspected it. I mean, in my experience talking to people on the show, that's usually –

and also revision is history too. You go back and watch. For the people who watch my season, you go back and watch if you're one of the other women and then you will see my one-on-one with, with, with Vanessa. And I like, I choked up and that hall was out because like, I was so nervous about not connecting with anyone. I was really emotional that I had such a good date with her and I hadn't slept all night before. And that probably added to it. But I, and so you go back and watch that and you go, oh yeah, I didn't, you didn't cry when you went on a date with me but

so yeah i think women are very intuitive i think you see like you have like the leads are always being told to be careful with their front runners because you just kind of you just kind of naturally like on a group dates you you feel safe and connected with them and you kind of are drawn to them. You have to try not to. It's easy to flirt with them. It's just a natural rapport. And you don't have that natural rapport. Most of these people you're with are just essentially strangers.

So it's not hard. I think the leads, if they lock in with frontrunners, have to put a lot of energy in trying to make it not obvious. And I think it's easier said than done. And I think a lot of cases people pick up on it pretty early. And again, it's not always the case. And I think in most cases, they're not really speaking it out loud. I think it's an internal thing.

And then when you have conversations like after the show, people will be like, oh, yeah, I kind of knew. I suspected it was pretty obvious. I think when it's filming, you're not seeing that. You're not hearing them say that. They're trying to like focus on their feelings and they're trying to buy in and they'll tell themselves, oh no, we have a connection. And so that way when they leave, they'll be like, you know, and some more than others. But I think afterwards you reassess and you see it a little bit more clear. Wow, this is blowing my mind. Yeah, I think, you know, but I also think that maybe you're someone who doesn't doubt themselves that much, right? So I can imagine for some people who maybe doubt their, you know, their like picker, like even if you're really drawn to somebody,

you might be like, but I've picked wrong in the past. Should I challenge myself to really open up to people who aren't the most obvious person or most obvious choice for me in the room? Maybe, but we have, I mean, how many seasons of the Bachelorettes picking their first impression rows?

Yeah, like six or at least. But they at least have seemed open to number two and three. It seems like it is a genuine... I mean, I feel like we watched that with JoJo season two because she knew Jordan was her type, and she's like, I've been burned in the past by people like him, the athletic, whatever. I've heard JoJo was one of the more torn with her top two.

I think now that she feels very differently about that but in the moment you know I think I think Becca was really into Blake I think that was a real connection I think they I think sometimes the lead has two really strong connections sometimes this one rarely three but not always the case but I think that's that's the norm what do you think are the ratios of people having having sex in fantasy suites like you know what i mean like if you're if if like you know it's one but then you're spending the night with three people like are people like just like well it's my last go of it i think there's some of that yeah i think other people it's different like

for me i i felt sexualized by the show from the times i was on it and and i already knew that if i had a connection if i thought i knew i was going to pick someone i was only going to sleep with that one person like it was a decision i made for myself before the show started and I stuck to that. Other people I know were kind of like, yeah, I mean it's my last time. Last season you had Clayton who was like I don't know, I'm the bachelor. Isn't this what the bachelor does?

And he kind of took that approach. I think it's different for everyone. I think some people are more conservative and I think it's different for everyone. I think, you know, are they more, you know, some people are more conservative with, you know, sleeping with people. Some people are more progressive with it,

and I think that plays a role, and I definitely think there's been, like, this is my last hurrah. I like this person. I'm probably not going to pick them, but I think they're hot, and it'd be fun to have sex with. And when am I ever going to be told that I get to do something like this? And I think it happens

with both The Bachelor and The Bachelorettes. And you think this show makes it seem like people are having way more sex than they actually are? Absolutely. Right? I feel like a lot of these fantasy suites people don't actually sleep together but it's implied that they did

if you mean like when they started doing like the morning after and they're lying in bed like a lot of those times they definitely did not have sex even on your season we had a whole freaking montage of Raven afterward that wasn't me

like a music video basically it was happening. That was one of the weirdest things I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure Matt James had didn't sleep with anyone

and he had a morning after kind of seeming like you could it would if you had to assume after watching it you might and guess

you would have guessed that he did. Right. I think they're just you know it is a tv show so is that your first time completely like because i know you're like hanging out between cuts you're hanging out going places like is that really the first time where you feel like oh i'm off mic for

sure or are there other moments where like you feel safe that you can like that's the only time you really feel safe there's other other off-camera moments sometimes, but I think for most people that's the only time you really feel. Like they can't actually use this, even if I don't know there's a mic on kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, there's other small moments of like you could be in the ocean, you know, because you don't have a mic on there, but they can kind of see you. But yeah, and there's definitely when the door closes,

there's like a lot of times, oh my God, like this is crazy. And there's like for the first 20 minutes, you're just like speed talking to one another, trying to like get everything out. And it's, I think there is so much of that. Yeah, that like, I think sex is a, is not, is a fraction of it.

That makes sense. But for the, you know, for your front runner, it's definitely like the first thing that you get to the talking afterwards. Usually. I got to say also, I just want to point out that like, as far as life coaches go, Quincy is really winning me over.

Right? I never, like, you know, the life coach is kind of easy to roll your eyes and we had Carl before. And we had Chris. We had Chris. But the mentality coach is kind of easy to roll your eyes and we had carl before and then we had chris we had chris but the mentality coach i don't want that guy's mentality you know i don't know if quincy like i know we teased him for the not having sex for a year and a half and his limo exit but like he seems like a i like him i like him yeah yeah and i just i did not expect to after seeing life coach next to his uh his name

his name but uh i'm really i'm really enjoying him i i think that's kind of it right yeah um we have three for gabby i mean i guess what so who would be the fourth for rachel potentially are you at least on on on board with the final three in no particular order that we've talked about? Tino, Avon, and Zach for Rachel? I think so. I feel good about that. So you think Tyler is going home? I think Tyler is for sure.

I don't know if he's going home. I have no idea. I don't think he's the next bachelor. I don't think he's the next bachelor. Okay. I don't think he's the next bachelor, but I do think he's going next Bachelor. I don't think he's the next Bachelor, but I do think he's going to... I think he's a sleeper. I think he's going to be a hit on Paradise.

I could see that, yeah. Totally. Very likable. And then for Gabby, Nate, Spencer. We still have a fourth for Rachel. Not that I feel confident about. I guess we can make it Tyler. Right? Because then it's Tyler. I threw your boy Quincy in there.

I'm not seeing a connection. I thought Gabby. Yeah, Quincy's for Gabby. I had no idea who he was with. We were just hyping him up, so I need him to go with someone. I mean, by default, I guess Tyler. Yeah. Because I don't see it with, who else are our guys?

I mean, Logan. She seems to like Logan, but we think that he might jump ship yeah but maybe not i yeah logan could be your top four if he doesn't like i think just i think it's a weak top i think it seems like gabby's we'll all know who's going home after hometowns with rachel because i'm so confident in her top three yes if especially if we get if we're right like a lot can change like who knows but if we go into hometowns with those three being there

I would have a heart that's what I yeah right I don't know and then right Gabby shoot Nate Nate for sure

Spencer maybe just because she made that comment on night one that he was her type maybe I think we haven't we just haven't seen Gabby connect with a lot of the men yet.

I think Jason or Johnny. Yeah. Maybe both. Maybe both. Johnny, yeah, I think Johnny maybe. He's so young. He's the same age as Zach. Yeah, but Zach's with Rachel.

Rachel's only 26. Gabby's 31. Oh, I see. True. Yeah, what is with all these 25-year-old men? There's not enough older men for Gabby's 31. Oh, I see. True. What is with all these 25-year-old men? There's not enough older men for Gabby, I feel like. I know. Jason is 30. That's nice.

Good for him. Way to make it that far. Eric's 29. Eric's 29. Jason's 30. It's like, Jason, top four is yours if you want it. Just talk.

Yeah. Be vulnerable. Do something. Open up a little bit. Open up a little bit. Talk about a dog that made you sad once. Anything. Just try.

I feel like top four is yours. Eric? Is Eric going to the top four? I hope Eric doesn't self-eliminate oh yeah i have a little fear about that there's he's no yeah he's listen he's got an edge it doesn't take much in this world as we know like he he he's got a confidence in him that can easily be shown his cockiness and you know he uh he has a little snark to him too. It doesn't take much. So I agree that I could see him being –

I think now that we have it separated and we have two bachelorettes, there's even – it's really like when they separate, you're like, wow, it really seems like they have really less options. You know what I'm saying? I can see Eric feeling like he's not the right guy for gabby like that he isn't like that or that like that they that she needs someone that's that's more emotional than him maybe and they're kind of they kind of slightly tease that on their date yeah and that like once it gets real he might might be like, oh, no, I have to do emotional care for another person instead of being on this TV show.

Maybe. I don't know. But I don't know. I don't know enough about Eric. Yeah. Well, and we just don't know enough about Gabby and who she's into. It's been very we just haven't we haven't seen it as much. And I think Gabby is playing it closer to the vest than Rachel.

You think that she has all these secret plans. Yeah, secret plans. I think it's real simple. Like where Gabby was probably like, I'm not going to do this. I just think she might be, or they're not showing it as much. I just think she might be a little more reserved and how she, and maybe it's coming from self-doubt. I don't know where it's coming from, but I, you know, I think some people are more like, you see it, you go for it, you say it, you name it, you know, and other people

are more like, I don't know, we'll see. And it also might be what's, what's being shown. Yeah. So everyone's, everyone's different. Allison, thank you so much for coming. Lovely breaking it down with you. Thank you so much for having me. I had a blast. Let people know where they can follow you again, remind them where they can buy your book.

Yeah. So my book is called, um, overthinking about you navigating romantic relationships when you have OCD, anxiety, and or depression. And available anywhere books are sold. I also have a weekly podcast called Just Between Us. And then on socials, I'm at Allison Raskin. And then my mental health account is at Emotional Support Lady. Awesome. Well, check it out. All great things that Allison is doing. Don't forget

to send your questions at AskNickAtCastMe.com. Cast with a K for all things Ask Nick, texting office hours, all that fun stuff. We are back tomorrow with the wonderful Haley Orantia talking about, we got the Emrata cheating scandal. We'll talk a little bit about cheating tomorrow. Yes. The reactions to that cheating scandal, not surprising, but also disappointing, I suppose. Also, what else we got on the docket, Amanda? disappointing, I suppose. Also, what else we got on the docket, Amanda?

Victoria Beckham did karaoke to one of her songs, which I think is so fun. We've got the Rejection Challenge. I'll talk about what that is. A lot of cheating statistics. We can talk about J-Lo and Ben Affleck on their continued vacation. Took a nap. Everyone's

freaking out about it. The pink sauce TikTok situation, a condiment that angered America. Okay. Well, a lot to discuss. We'll get into it all. We'll see you back tomorrow. Allison, thank you once again. You are awesome. Have a great day, guys. Bye.