The Viall Files - E455 Bachelorette Recap w/ Elizabeth Wagmeister

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelorette Recap Edition! Today we are back with another episode, joined by journalist and Bachelor Fan, Elizabeth Wagmeister! On this episode we kick things off by diving into some Bachelor Nation drama and news. We talk about the status of Tyler Cameron’s friendship with Matt James and how there may have been drama with Rachel K, a possibility of missing a book release, how much love is in a love hate situation, and pressures of being single when your friend is in a steady relationship. We also dive into breaking down this action packed episode of The Bachelorette, with moments of heartbreak, honesty, and nicknames. We talk about Jacob and Hayden apologizing in reaction to last week’s episode, Hayden saying disrespectful things while still mic’d up on the show, and how the format has led to more realistic depiction of modern dating that has resulted in a lot more rejection. We also talk about the best types of dates on the show, Rachel and Gabby genuinely having fun in a private conversation, potential proposals in Paris, and how Logan switching sides may lead to heartbreak but may also lead to everyone being more honest about their emotions.  “The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The road to the villain edit is made the same way.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Babbel: Right now, save up to 60% off your subscription when you go to http://www.BABBEL.com/viall. Babbel—Language for life. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @ewagmeister See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile fouls bachelorette recap edition boy do we have a lot to talk about. The wonderful Elizabeth Wagmeister returns. I don't know how many times you've been with us now, but now it's like you friend of show. I think so. Friend of show. At least a hat trick.

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Maybe a fourth. A four trick. At least, definitely. Either way, welcome back.

Happy to be back. And we love to have you. Ellie and Amanda are both with us as well, as always. Hopefully, as always. Forever. For now. Watch out. For now.

What an episode. I think this is my favorite episode so far. Absolutely. Agree. Like first two episodes, I was like, hey, there's two best threats. We don't know what to do. And we were all like, we'll figure it out because nothing's been happening. And then last

week you know certainly a lot happened but like really at the expense of Gabby and Rachel not that that has ended but there seems to be at least more more to talk about more to break down more to discuss some like real group dates also yeah real real it was a meatier episode I felt like you know we have something to work with here yeah there was a lot going on i feel like there's those episodes where not a lot happens and then there's one thing at the end and then there's the episodes where like every moment yeah you're kind of like mad at your tv yeah and that was this episode for me which was great it's the best uh before we get into it do we have any notable Bachelor gossip?

Yeah, some little Bachelor tea to catch everyone up. Who wants attention? Me. Thank you for coming. So I wanted to talk a little bit about the Tyler Cameron, Matt James, Rachel Kirkconnell of it all. It seems to be popping up a lot. It popped up a little bit more because, you know, back in the day, I believe it was Matt who made a comment that sometimes Tyler and Rachel kind of butted heads

and people were all up in arms about that. He said there's a love-hate relationship. Love-hate, correct. That was the phrase. Which is a unique choice of words. Yeah, not great to say about your friend. So people were kind of discussing that and what it meant, but it

kind of died back down. Tyler Cameron has been doing a bunch of interviews lately, and some of the questions he's been asked is- Is he promoting anything in particular? He did that jewelry line with Kristen Cavalieri. But he was just basically the model for that. It's not his line. But anyway, he's doing a lot of press. Yeah.

So he's been getting asked questions of, are you still friends with Matt James? Because we haven's doing a lot of press yeah so he's been getting asked questions of you know are you still friends with matt james because we haven't seen a lot of posts between them you know obviously matt and rachel moved out of new york city so that could be part of that um and they started asking him you know what is this rachel kirkconnell drama you know what is this love hate relationship um and so tyler actually told us weekly quote i was definitely going through my own shit we just have our own ways of clashing I don't like listening to people sometimes and she's strong and she has a really good opinion on a lot of things and sometimes I don't want to hear it I don't know

if it was that interview or something else I remember seeing something where he kind of jokingly said there's love to the love-hate relationship. They used to hang out all the time. Maybe the most famous friendship from this space. So famous that they- How Matt became the Bachelor. I mean, they have not made someone the lead of the show without having previously gone on the show. And obviously there were like other factors at play,

but nevertheless nevertheless this friendship was so popular that the the people in charge felt like hey we can cast this guy as our next lead like he was so known among bachelor nation that they cast him as a lead that's like significant yes and people are also busy so they could easily talking we were talking before about another story. The no response to a non-story is always the best response. But they have like, they have their own lives. So they could, either of them both could be like, I know it, like, I know it looks crazy, but like, we're just really busy. But obviously he'll always be my guy. That is not what either of them are saying.

And my question to the room is, what is the thing that Tyler just doesn't want to hear about? Yeah, doesn't want to listen to, doesn't want to hear. How's it end? She's strong and she has a really good opinion on a lot of things. And sometimes I don't want to hear it. So what are the things that Tyler doesn't want to hear? Yeah. Like is she talking about maybe the people he's dating? My opinion is like he doesn't

want to hear her opinion on his dating choices. Yeah. The thing that's really interesting though to piggyback off of what you said, Nick, is that is a statement that opens up a lot of questions where he literally could just say, if there wasn't an issue, he could be like, everyone's making a big deal out of this. Like, we'll always be good friends. They're traveling. He's enjoying his fiance. They're traveling the world. I got my stuff going on. There's literally nothing there. We're, we're, we're, we're, we're ride or dies. Right. So I'm... And I would have been like, yeah, totally. People are busy.

Like, they were never going to be college roommates forever. They're not presenting a unified front. Or like, Tyler Cameron is not presenting a unified front with Rachel and Matt. No, they're trying... It's like,

how I see it is they're trying to like keep the appearances of the friendship, but also trying to win the breakup in case they have to. That's how it comes across.

It's like laying the groundwork to take a side. Yeah. I'll say at this point, now I believe that there is a few just because of what they're saying. The love-hate, yeah. Where I admittedly do not follow this stuff closely like day by day, but obviously since I'm admittedly obsessed with The Bachelor, people always DM me. Friends in my normal life will be like, do you know what's going on with this? And this one I actually found out.

I will give a shout out to my friend Allie. She's going to die that she got a shout out on your podcast, Nick. Shout out to Allie. Yeah, shout out to Allie. She was like, do you know what's going on with Matt James and Tyler Cameron and I was like what are you talking about like I hadn't heard about it this was a little bit ago and I was like this is ridiculous like they're friends this is just drama but now Tyler's statement makes me believe it yeah he could have just taken the high road yeah and said everything's fine we're just busy but he didn't well I'm curious like for the room

either what are things that your like girlfriend has called your friends on or that you have called your like boyfriend's friends on like what are the kinds of things that live in that territory like do you think it is dating stuff like what kinds of things do you feel like girlfriends of boys are most likely to like chime in on uh fuck boy behavior yeah the i don't know if that's what's going on but that would be the obvious answer you know think about it like you got two attractive men who are friends who go out often sought out like this is like a tale as old as time one of them gets a girlfriend he falls in love they spend a lot of time together

the other friend is still like living the single life not doing anything you know but like and and that person is starts being a little more frustrated and maybe i don't know maybe insecure because it's like well when you're hanging out with eric eric's always like surrounded by single women and they're always approaching them and like you know and that can be frustrating that and then so that person is you know maybe in the nicest possible way because i've all i've ever heard about rachel kirkconnell like minus all that other stuff she went through but for the people who have met her i've never met her that's only one thing i hear

is just how nice she is that's all i've ever heard she's sweet she's nice that's it now thing I hear is just how nice she is. That's all I've ever heard. She's sweet. She's nice. That's it. Now, there's, I'm sure, a lot more to her, but that's all I've ever heard. I also think, like, given all the drama that happened, I do think that Matt and Rachel are one of, at least at this point, one of the strongest love stories to come from Bachelor

because- Like, ever or recently? Well, I guess in recent history, but think of everything they went against and they were like, we still, like, they clearly want to be together. But I think it's also interesting too

because Matt has said, like, even in his book, all of that after the final rose stuff, he said they left their hand in hand. Like, what we saw as America wasn't necessarily what was actually happening. Did he kind of admit

that it was a bit performative? Because he said, I mean, what we saw... They were both under an immense amount I mean, what we saw on that screen was they were done. And I've heard, I haven't read his book, but I've heard the quote, we left their hand in hand. They were under immense amount of pressure. And I couldn't imagine being in their shoes for AFR. But do you feel like some of the tension is coming from the fact like you know Matt and Tyler have been friends for a long time and I get that Rachel and Matt are a strong couple and they've now been together for a while but if I was Tyler and suddenly there's

this new girl coming in like telling me her opinions or kind of you know judging my lifestyle whether or not I'm in a fuckboy stage I'd be like hey like you just got here. I don't fault. Yeah. I mean, I'm not picking a side. If I'm Tyler. Yeah. Like I would I could see getting annoyed if like if my buddy started dating someone who was critical of me, like just dating around and who knows what's going on. Maybe critical of anything. Honestly, like doesn't matter what she could be. You know, we don't know.

Like maybe it's an insecurity that Rachel has. Maybe maybe it's justifiable we don't really know i could see how both sides are taking it it's a very common like relationship dynamic that has happened among friends like you know what i'm saying like this is not an uncommon thing is there other aspects of the story that we're not hearing about i I don't know. But I think it's an interesting statement. And I also think the fuckboy theory, very possible, very likely. But also to answer your question, what are things that people might typically get upset about? I think not even just like girl to boy, but like anyone who sees a friend dating someone who they might perceive is not the best for them that's when you raise concerns so for whatever we know it could be

coming from both sides you know oftentimes you don't say anything because you don't want to ruin a friendship but there could be one thing said that just i mean what if tyler is just like dating around as he has a right to do and pretty girl after pretty girl uh and then rachel was sees vats and she's like oh another new girl you know even something is like harmless as that i would if i'm tyler i would be like frustrated i wouldn't want to hear that over and over and like if i'm in rachel's, you know, I could, it's not her place, but like I could see why she might feel that way. You know, and I have no idea the choices these people are making and who, if they have a right to be critical, but it seems like that's what, that's what might be going on. Babel.

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Start your new language learning journey today with Babbel. And like I said, what's so great about it, it's so convenient when you're on the road and travel. And if you're not up to learning, getting fluent in the Honduran language, it can just help you get around and just be less confused. And again, ingrain yourself with the culture that you're in it's always a slightly better experience uh when you at least try to speak whatever they're speaking uh right now save up to 60 60 of your subscription it's basically free it's basically free when you go to babble.com

slash v-i-a-l-l-e-t-a-s babble b-a-b-b-e-l-B-B-E-L.com slash V-I-A-L-L for up to 60, 60, 60% off your subscription. Babbel, language for life. I also feel like, again, we've talked about, you know, now that Matt and Rachel have moved to Florida, that's caused some like tension and distance. They just, they don't live together anymore. They're not spending all this time together. But I also remember speaking of matt's book i never saw a photo of the two of them there together to tyler and tyler so i'm like was that either a sign what do you mean his book his book release party like when he was releasing that like and so i'm like was that a sign that

they were either at that point already like kind of distance and doing their own thing or was that also like kind of you know you don't think you don't think tyler went to matt's i never saw a photo of him there interesting and i noticed that because i was like this is like his that would be a big thing yeah totally so if he's not feeling that support in that way or maybe rachel gets protective of matt and then it comes through other avenues yeah maybe maybe matt doesn doesn't feel like Tyler's being a good friend and Rachel is just like standing up for her boyfriend. Yeah.

Yeah. And I feel like once you have that dynamic where like one person feels pushed out and then they're like, well, arms crossed, like I don't like spending time with you and your girlfriend anyway. So then it just like furthers this distance between them. Yeah. Well, there's clearly something going on and I feel like at this point, either they should just talk about it or both parties should stop saying cryptic. It's the little. Yeah. Well, there's clearly something going on. And I feel like at this point, either they should just talk about it or both parties should stop saying cryptic.

Yeah. It's the cryptic, but still giving us little nuggets where it's like, okay, well, now we have to talk about it. They're like, you know, there's nothing going on. We're still best friends, but like also they annoy the fuck out of it. Yeah. It's either like talk about it or stop talking about it, don't do this middle area which then allows us to guess yeah and nick at the beginning of this with bachelor t was like who wants attention and this is well it seems like what they want well our we've we've got into it the past few weeks because we try to have this like we don't like to promote hearsay because like who knows but if my peers talk about it or post about it it's fair game for us to discuss and and deliberate this is an on the record statement from tyler cameron so like we're dissecting that statement because he

both both camps could easily just say we're just incredibly busy lots of love there we're rooting for each other's success success it's just like it's just you busy lots of love there we're rooting for each other's success success it's just like it's just you know we went from living together and posting all the time to just like and that's such a believable answer totally like i have my dearest friends i don't i see twice a year you know like we got shit going on right and like the book party thing like i've missed friends bachelorette parties and like really significant life events, like wedding events, because you're just busy and you can't get on a plane and fly somewhere. So him missing the book party on one end of the spectrum. We don't know for sure. Right. If he missed the book party, which we, I don't know, it could be you're busy and it's nothing, or it could be a grand statement that you're not there to support him.

Or maybe it's just like Tyler didn't think anything of it, but Matt was personally offended by it. So many possibilities. So many possibilities. Well, moving on to some other statements we've gotten in the last week. So obviously we know that today's episode for Hayden was not great, but it still wasn't great for last week's episode either. Neither was it for Jacob. Both of them had their discussions with Gabby. Jacob had said that if she was the only person there, he wouldn't have

the heart to continue. Hayden called her rough around the edges. So both of them, you know, received some backlash online. They both took to Instagram to talk about it. So I'll talk about Jacob first. He was the one who said, if she was the only person here, I don't think I could have the heart to continue. So he took to Instagram and said, I want to take this moment to apologize to Gabby Windy for not taking into consideration her feelings. What I said was ignorant and not appropriate for the moment. I realize you don't know what someone could be going through or where their headspace is at. Listening instead of explaining would have gone a lot further.

I just want to point out, real solid apology. Right? Agreed. Yeah. I'm sorry she felt like all ownership. A plus apology from Jacob. Agreed. He named what he did, took accountability.

There's not an excuse in there. And he even took it a step further. So he actually said that he's not spoken to Gabby or hasn't heard anything back. But if he is asked to come to the Men Tell All, he will certainly give an apology in person. I'm sure that will be more genuine than an Instagram post. So he even wants to do it in person. Real exceptional response from Jacob. Agreed.

Yeah. On to Hayden. Yeah. In comparison, Hayden, our good friend, especially after this past episode, said, quote, what, this is also on Instagram. He said, what a night. He starts. Jesus.

With so many emotions going on, I have to say I have an overwhelming amount of respect for Gabby and Rachel. Looking back, I can definitely say I may not be the most eloquent with words at times, but I aimed my heart in the direction of my intentions. Extremely glad Rachel saw me for who I am inside and allowed me to continue the journey with her. D minus. Terrible. Wait, that doesn't even make sense to me.

Like he didn't even really apologize. He just said, I'm not the most eloquent. But he also. Yeah, he basically had an excuse. Yeah. to me like he didn't even really apologize he just said i'm not the most eloquent but he also yeah he he basically had an excuse yeah but also when he says i'm glad that she saw me for who i am like this isn't a good thing no she we saw you for who you are she didn't like what well yeah she sent you home he didn't see episode four yet that's true he doesn't know how he and keep in mind like much of episode four,

what a great transition as it relates to Hayden was the show and Meeple like sharing the tea. They had the receipts of which clearly Hayden didn't realize. One of my favorite things on this show is when people whisper.

Right. You're miked. It Right. You're miked. It's like, you're miked. It's just like, these women are, you know, like, why don't you whisper really? Yeah. Can we hear you? I also love how when, I know we're going a bit out of order, but when he's denying what he said to Rachel, it's like, did you forget that there are cameras? Like, they'll just do a playback.

Yeah, listen, I don't think they – well, it's very easy to forget your mic and it's very easy to forget the cameras, which is how they were able to successfully make these shows. But there's a lack of common sense. Yes. Let's just get into hayden since but like i i never as we always say with the show i i reserve all my real judgment and opinions on any of these people until i meet them in person just like across the board like i am not gonna like make an assumption of who these people are based off an edited show that's a microcosm and also like of who they are and and they the show is notorious for taking the most simplest things and making them like such a big deal that said

with hayden i feel like while i could be wrong because i haven't met him i i think hayden's that, like, I don't think he respects women as much as other people. Like a Tino, for example. You look at, like, Tino. And, like, here's the thing. You know, with Hayden, like, referring to Gabby and Rachel as bitches, I would be willing to guess that Hayden's just like, I was just, like, joking. Like, I didn't call them bitches. Like, I was just like, you know, and you know what? Fine. Maybe I I'll let's, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were joking, but like the fact that you went on a TV show,

like the Bachelorette, you, you didn't have an audience of women and your mic, and you just like, didn't think to have at least the pause that you were so aloof to the fact of what that might sound like, that you had the confidence to say that anyways, right? Like you didn't have that consideration. It wasn't like, you know what I'm saying? It didn't even dawn on him not to say it. Right. You know, he didn't have the consideration. Where Tino, right? Tino's on a date with Rachel and, you know, it's a bachelorette, traditionally conservative audience. And Tino, nevertheless, still didn't want to assume that Rachel might not want to have kids someday.

And so he just thoughtfully just like, I'm not going to assume anything about her. I'm going to ask her questions. I'm going to treat her like an individual that I have a lot to learn about. And Hayden just seems like the guy who, I don't know if he has sisters. I don't know if he has, he just seems like a guy who doesn't have any good women role models in his life. He just has a bunch of frat boy buddies who like locker room talk. You know what I'm saying? And like generally, like, well, I don't think he hates women. I just think he lacks a general overall respect for them. the type of thoughtful consideration one would want from someone going on The Bachelorette.

Right. And also probably isn't cognizant of that. I don't think that he... Yes, it's completely... Yes. He thinks he's a good guy and he thinks he got fucked over by the show 100%. 150%. I don't think that he is sitting there being like I don't

respect women I think that he is more over than a lack of respect for women he has a lack of maturity because to even speak that way like to refer to women as bitches like I think about my brother and my boyfriend and like men around me in my life and like they're just they're not 12 year olds you know they wouldn't talk that way like that's not how you speak and specifically how it was him in bringing up his ex he was like she doesn't even hold a kid like he was whipping out the like my ex was hotter thing like he's so clearly insecure in this setting like he's not getting the attention he felt entitled to and now he's very quick to use that to make demeaning comments about rachel's like physical appearance like it just seems like again don't him, but he seems like the classic guy

who might muster up the courage to hit on someone in public. It doesn't go the way he wants and he gets a little mean. Well, okay. So you could see that. And again, we know this is an edited show, but I feel like you saw these moments

where he would like switch. What we saw was not edited. Like he said this shit. He said this totally. But I just mean like you see him switch on a dime. The demeanor. Like, right? And that's what I mean.

We don't know the edit if that was actually five minutes of footage, if it was five hours of footage, how quickly did he switch. But you could see internally when he gets upset and feels like someone knocked him, all of a sudden his whole demeanor changed which to me is pretty scary because you can't stay calm in the moment and reason i think it's also with people interesting too because it's like we watched him you know the episode starts so like who's team gabby who's team rachel and like we see him in the kitchen at first saying well i use the word rough around that also annoyed me i'm like it's a phrase it's not a word but he's i use the word rough around the edges um and he didn't get the response he really wanted and then i felt like he kept and then we see him I'm like, it's a phrase. It's not a word. But I used the word rough around the edges. And he didn't get the response he really wanted.

And then I felt like he kept, and then we see him out by the pool. Trying to convince the guys. And he's saying, well, bitch, maybe you shouldn't fucking use that word to describe yourself. Like, it just kept. He didn't quite say it like that. No, he said, well, bitch, maybe you shouldn't use that fucking word to describe yourself then. That's a direct quote. Yeah. I added the.

Yeah. Bitch. You added the intensity. I think, you know. It was like violent. The true script was on point though. It was accurate. That was, but yeah. Cause I'd be willing to bet he was just like,

I was just like joking with my guys and like whatever. But that's like, for me, it's just more the lack of self-awareness and the hubris that you had to say that word in the environment in which you said it. I think that speaks to like at best your overall ignorance to the respect that like women deserve and that you seem to lack to want to give them. You know, like it seems like if he ever offers women respect, he thinks he's doing them a favor. Like it's not a just a general way of life correct also it just everything about him it's more about him and less about the women you know

because to even be so defensive and to bring up his ex and make that point of comparison I feel like he thinks he's hot shit and he's on this show and he's probably thinking oh my gosh i'm so cool like to all my friends at home i'm on this show and he wants to kind of flex and be character syndrome right be his frat boy self and it's not about that you are even his final phrase to rachel at the end of the episode being like i hear you i respect you like i'm like it feels like I'm in a frat basement. Yeah. And also,

no, you don't. Right. I don't think he respects either of them. No. Also, can we talk about. The dog?

Yes. Rambo. Rambo. Yeah. First of all, all I, like, you know,

Rambo's alive and well. I checked on him last night on Instagram. He's alive? He's still with us. Good. Well, all I gotta say is, so one of the two things. So one of two things.

Either he embellished the health of Rambo because he felt the pressure of Batronation and the sad stories that are required. All I heard was, you don't love your dog. You know, he told a sad story about like, my dog is like, his head is caved in. He's got some brain tumor. He's got maybe a year to live and I'm sorry. Like, and I say this as someone like recently, like in the past, you know, I got Jeff, I'd have this newfound love for like, but like before I got Jeff, I, I, I might not have felt this way, but like if Jeff was dying, I wouldn't leave him for like maybe

nine weeks. Like I would like, you know what? I would say like, call me in a year, but like right now, and then like, I'll have a sad story, but like, I'm sorry, you don't get to use the health of your dog if you're willing to abandon them. Totally. That's such a good point. And I am, I didn't think about that and i am such a dog person hamilton the wagmeister family dog is my brother and yes if hamilton were sick i would never leave never but okay so he made it seem like that like he could get a call at any moment be like rambo's dead right and if if and i i understand him going on the show if his if his, hey, at the end of the day, he's got a good year left. He's going to be fine.

He's not suffering. But he played it up to a degree that made him – he overplayed his hand to the point where I'm just like, well, now I just think you're an asshole for leaving your dog. Right. You're like, so now you're an asshole to women and your dog. That is like cardinal sin times two. All the bitches. Oh, my God. Nick, I have a question for you so i was actually as i was watching i was like i'm so excited to ask nick because and as you always say people are always very curious about what's real and

what's edited so obviously hayden brought this book about rambo. Like, that was him. He brought that to the show. Oh, yeah. But I, like, I always say the Bachelor producers, they deserve an Emmy for some of this work because you had him referring to the women as bitches. Then you have him talking about his ex.

Like, he is starting to get the villain treatment, right? And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, he pulls out this book and it felt so disjointed. I didn't get a good look at the book. Well, my guess is that it was not the producers.

You think he just carried this book with him? Yeah, I think it's more believable that a guy going on the show had friends and he thought he did some homework and he's like, my dog's sick. I'm going to use this as my sob story. I've had a privileged life that hasn't faced a lot

of adversity. I got rich parents. I went to a rich college. I'm a leisure executive. My whole life is literally leisure. I find that more believable than the producers feeling the need to like scramble and like set them up with a I not really, I do think they get too much credit for perceived manipulation in some of these aspects.

Again, they're either throwing out helpful suggestions to make these people seem more romantic and thoughtful than the other ones might be. And part of it is just because maybe they're nervous and they're just like, this is a lot going on in their head. Or what they do is maximize the feeling you're feeling. So if you're mad or angry or feeling petty, they will not stifle that. They will encourage it.

They will play into it. They're not creating things, but they are maximizing it. There's no like, go sit in the corner and think about it. Maybe you'll feel differently. Write a note, sit on it. And like, no, that's like, how do you feel in this moment right now i want to hear it right you know but i don't think they would go out of their way to like set them up that way okay so i guess i'd be wrong but to clarify because i i agree with you totally like i think he brought this book on his own and like you said probably was at home and realized i need some sort of like

that was like a shutterutterfly pre-made. Yeah. Oh, for sure. So I agree. He brought that on his own. What I'm saying is we saw him kind of starting to emerge as the villain. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, he whips out this book. So I'm like, did the producer say like, hey, maybe you haven't shown her the book yet? Oh, sure. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. That probably I was watching and I'm like, where did this like we went from A to B with probably happened. I was watching and I'm like, where did this, like, we went from A to B with no transition. And it's like, you know he wanted to whip that out on a one-on-one.

Totally. And then it was like, oh, fuck. He hasn't done his learn. I'm going home, so, like, it's a cocktail party. Yeah. It's probably more like maybe he went to one of the producers and was like, hey, I got this book. And they were probably like, yeah, you should probably I would show her now. Yeah. You know, for sure. Like, you need help right now so bring out whip out that book you know they they

definitely have a sense of like the stuff like how like who's their favorites and like they try you know as opposed to like if they think that hayden was going to get a one-on-one they might say why don't you just wait you know like you don't need to don't you know they want everyone to get their story out depending on you you know, when they have time. And so they're just kind of managing it that way. Part of that is just like they're trying to put a puzzle together. It's less more Machiavellian and more just like, you know, you need to save that because you'll, you know, I'm not going to tell you you're going to get a one-on-one. Right.

But like, I don't know if a group date's a place to do that. But with Hayden, it's just like, you're going home. We got to get that book out sometime. Get that book out. And again, they're not telling him to. Clearly, he thought it was a good idea. He brought the book and they gassed him up a little bit and gave him a little too much confidence in what that book might do.

And that exit. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I kind of felt bad for him for a moment. me of only just because he looks like a fool like an idiot i pulled him aside though and said basically like do you know why i pulled you that's like a parent or a teacher moment right there like everything when you were little and you'd like have to like think back on your actions and he goes well i assume it's about rambo i loved how she was like no it's not about the dog about the dog yeah yeah i love how she handled that she's like the dog yeah she's like what are you talking about she's like i don't care about the dog and i'm really and i want to say

because we don't want to get hate here we're clearly all dog lovers yes and i was really i felt upset because i'm like, oh, my gosh. I hate that he's using this dog as a pawn because I hope the dog's okay. But this has nothing to do with Rachel or anything. Dogs are like, you know, if you're an owner of the dog, there's an expectation of, like, loving your dog to the point where you wouldn't abandon them. Yeah. I don't think Rachel is expected. I think her response was appropriate.

A hundred. And the fact that she was like the dog she's like i'm here to find my husband not to talk about your dog after who you shouldn't have left you shouldn't have left yes after you degraded me and compared me to your ex and apparently according to meatball said yeah so can we talk about Meatball getting a second chance? Meatball's suddenly back with us. The redemption arc. Am I forgetting what his first chance was? Meatball was let go at last rose ceremony

and then was here at the top of the episode. And he said he's been given a second chance by Rachel. And I don't know if that's because at the end of last episode, Gabby had nine and Rachel had eight. So maybe they wanted them both to have nine. But he was let go at the last rose ceremony. And he just was there.

And he was just back. Yeah. So it was. I know. I know. He said I got a second chance, but like, I just was like,

I don't know. I'm wondering if they wanted them to have equal guys when they boarded the cruise ship. They're like, yeah. Oh, can I? Oh yeah. Jesse Palmer's French.

Is that what you want to talk about? Oh my God. But he is from Canada. I think he has, I don't know if he's like French Canadian, but I know oh my god but he's from canada yeah i think i think he has i don't know if he's like french canadian but i know he's like he's lived at least in quebec no my my response was in awe i was like impressed by his yeah so there were actually there were two i felt like misses with like editing which one is the meatball thing which it was in yeah a post-credit scene you like saw him get a second chance, but he didn't, they didn't explain it.

He was just there. And then. But conveniently was the tattletale. But that's what he said. He was like, I've been given a second chance by Rachel. I can't basically, you know, sit back and watch this guy do this to her. So I think he had, he felt like he had higher standards for himself because he was, for himself because he was on the verge of going home and then suddenly was brought back. He felt like he had a duty to Rachel.

He had a job to do. Yeah. And he did it. I just love it because Meatball for me was the guy that I'm like, why is he here? Like neither of these women are into him. And now I'm like, wow, the redemption arc that no one saw coming. I also love that Rachel referred to him as James. Yes.

After he like shared some truth. Well James told me. Right. Had no idea that Meatball had a name. Before it was Meatball Meatball told me it just takes the air out of the like well he's like well what did Meatball tell you?

Right. Who can believe a meatball? I spoke to someone who went to high school with him last week. And apparently, I mean, maybe his like close, close friends in high school referred to him as Meatball. But the rest of the high school just called him James. So I think he's really and I I think when he got to college, it became more of a thing. Like according to this person I talked to,

it became more of a, he wanted it to be more of a nickname as life went on, but he's really, he's running with it. Yeah. How do you think? Not my, I wouldn't do it,

but like good for him. Do you think nicknames expire? Like, do you think you hit an age where it's like, you can't have a nickname like meatball anymore? Uh, it, or where it becomes less endearing? I think it expires. He's like 84. Like, do you think you hit an age where it's like you can't have a nickname like Meatball anymore? Or where it becomes less endearing?

I think it expires with the friends that gave you the nickname. Like, talking about, like, the Tyler and Matt of it all. Like, friendships evolve. They change. I truthfully think, like, Matt and Tyler will always be friends. But, like, their friendship probably has changed. And, like, as you get older, you just, it's different than it was. And so I think it's weird if you had a nickname like Meatball that was given to you by like a group of friends that like you see a little bit less,

and now you've made new friends and you're like, by the way, I'm Meatball. And you like, you try to like grandfather this, like, you know, it's like you grandfather this nickname into it. Then it's weird. Right. But if you still are friends with these friends and I have a friend from back home, we call him Baby Nicky. And then that turned into Baby. And then I realized that I can't call you Baby in public all the time because I'm always like, hey, Baby. But we'd call him Baby Nicky his name's nick he was always like a guy who would just like kind of charmingly would be like

i don't know like he'd show up late all the time but it was like baby nicky so baby so we would just call him a baby because he was kind of a baby about things but endearingly so i call him baby nicky when i see him once in a while but like that has, he's not going around being like, I'm baby Nikki. People call me baby. It's weird. I think it's weird. I could not have been more wrong about Jason. I'm sorry, Amanda.

You were definitely right. I thought Jason was good. Did that feel good to hear? Wait, wait. What was your previous stance? My stance was great looking guy. Both these women seem to be physically attracted to him. He was put on this like small group date.

They didn't show any of these conversations. He's clearly quiet and in that world like hot and quiet gets you sent home unless you're their favorite. And now I think Jason wins. Okay. I know. I mean I mean, I-

I thought he was going to be like sent home like this episode or next. Like, I just thought he would like, he would just be one of those guys who showed up and kind of like he had said, I mean, he literally said, I showed up like this really isn't for me. I'm very out of my comfort zone.

I'm not willing to like give my opinion on every little thing. It's not worth it. He's like an investment baker. It sounds like he's got a life, like he's not banking on his time on the bachelorette to like, he's just like, he's here for like an experience. And, but it turns out, I think Gabby's really into him.

Yeah. You know, when Gabby, after the one-on-one, well, first of all, like, let's just talk about like the fact that like the Paris date, like that's a big deal. Right? Like, and the fact that

Rachel gave it to Tino and you know, the two of them were talking before the date and like if Rachel says I'm giving it to Tino, like that's also got it

in Gabby's mindset be like, okay, I'm giving it to my ringer. Right? But you make a good point though. I don't doubt they're close friends.

It clearly is a love between them. I think they really are looking out for each other, but But the environment is just going to make them competitive. So to that point, if Rachel is bringing her clear frontrunner on this date and she's going to have to digest it, it wouldn't make sense if Gabby's like, well, fuck it. I'm going to bring my front runner. And I've always said the walk around whatever city you're in are always the best dates. They're the most realistic. They allow you the most time to like feel like you're in the real world with this person as opposed to like some sort of safety meeting for like a bungee jump. You know, it's just not, it's not the same type of date, you know? So I think the favorites are often on, not always.

I mean, usually a lot of the favorites are on these walk-around dates. Paris. And the fact that it was, so they were on this cruise. On Andy's season, we went Marseille, France was one of our destinations. And I remember Andy telling me, because usually the lead will fly on their own. And usually maybe like a day early they'll get there and then the guys will follow or different flights or everyone's flying on different flights. And we flew into like, I think Munich as a layover and I went to Marseille. But I remember Andy telling me that they went a day early and they just spent the day

like her and some of her producers was like, hey, let's go to paris for a day on an off day so i wouldn't be shocked if they were like we have two bachelorettes we need an extra date like we just we need more dates so like fuck it let's just like grab these two guys everyone else is going to follow and we'll just like fucking walk around paris and make a date out of it and it sounds like that's probably what they did and what are like like, oh my God. I mean, I was just in Paris. Like it truly is a romantic, beautiful city. It's like, it's so beautiful and romantic. And to walk around for a day is, I would think the best date you could have on the Bachelor

Bachelorette is walking around Paris. Absolutely. By the way, I saw photos from your Paris trip. It looked amazing. I was there this summer too. And it like walking around, as I was watching this, I was saying exactly what you're saying, which is this is a realistic,

I mean, not realistic just to go to Paris any day, but realistic in the sense that you're eating crepes and you're drinking wine and you're walking around. And like that is a perfect date. And also fun fact, I don't know if you guys know this, but the first, very first season of The Bachelor back in 2002, I learned this from, I interviewed a lot of the executives for a 20-year anniversary piece that we did in Variety. And the very first season, the proposal was supposed to be at the Eiffel Tower. And because of 9-11 and security measures,

they couldn't travel. So they weren't able to go to Paris. But that was like the whole pitch for the first season of the show is it ends up with a proposal. That was like their storyboard. Exactly. And now I'm also wondering, as I was watching it, I was thinking this with COVID, obviously they were in a bubble for a handful of seasons. And this is really the first season that they can travel with still precautions but not many and i wonder if they were like we've got to get a knifell tower shot in there because it's so romantic yeah it made a lot i wouldn't shock me if the paris state was not part of this like itinerary as they're planning out and mapping out the season but like creatively we're just like hey well if we grab we grab two guys, we can grab a couple audio men and a couple camera men.

We'll get two dates out of it. Yeah. And I think it was awesome. It was a really cool date. Yeah. But yeah, and then when Gabby at the end of the day got teared up, again, who knows how – I think Gabby 100% is playing her cards close to the vest.

I don't know if it's like this has to do with like her relationship with her mom and maybe there's some trust issues. So she's like very reserved. But like clearly she gave her first impression rose under different contexts than Gabby did. Like Mario's is hanging on for dear life. So like that – he's rivaling what's-his-name who got his first impression rose from Tayshia back in the day. That like that, like I forgot his name. That's kind of the point. Really good looking guy.

Seemed like he's going to be a front runner. Wait, look at them both. Okay. It doesn't even matter. They're like, oh, and we're going to re-sensor. Spencer, yeah. Like he was notorious for falling like Mario's rivaling. Mario was sweating at that rose ceremony.

Oh, sweating. And Keno already had one on his chest. Hang on through your life. Yeah. Like, whatever. And so I don't think Gabby, I don't think Mario was ever, like, her front runner. I think she gave it to Mario for different reasons than Rachel. Like, no one says you have to give it to the person who is your absolute favorite.

It's just, like, your first impression. You get to decide. The lead gets to decide what that first impression means. It's truly up to them. And with Gabby, when she got choked up, it reminded me of when I got choked up on my date with Vanessa, because there's a fear that all leads have of like, am I going to like anyone? Am I going to find someone? Now you add that with Rachel in this natural competition, even though they're not competing against each other, both met like the bachelor and bachelorettes both have a lot of pressure and it's different pressure. And the bachelorettes, I feel like I have a heightened

sense of pressure of like, well, to get engaged, they had to be proposed to, right? It's, it's, you know, there's still that element of like, someone has to ask me, I mean, you know, we've now had Becca Kufrin like proposed to Thomas and that's great, but like traditionally. So I think there's a level of pressure there. So you imagine like these two bachelorettes being like, well, what if Rachel gets proposed to, but I don't like, you know, a lot of things are going through their head, you know? So when she got teared up from that date with Jason, to me, it was this like, I thought Jason was my favorite. I was very attracted to him.

He's very quiet. So now I have questions. So I want to give him a date. The date went awesome. Like that feeling of that I had with Vanessa was very much like I was very nervous. I didn't feel like I was connecting with a lot of people. Vanessa was my favorite. She got an early date.

It went amazing. And from that moment forward, I felt like just sense that those tears were like just sense of relief. And I, that's like, that's what I saw on Gabby. I don't know if those tears, that's what I saw. I don't know if that's what it is, but like, I was just like, oh, she's going to, oh, no, I think she's going to pick the guy. Right. I also think it's like, when we talk about people who are there for the right reasons, Jason strikes me as the one who's the epitome of like, how are you on this show in terms of you do not seem like someone who wants to be on TV. He seems like the exact kind of person who seems really genuine. Yeah, he definitely came on for, I think, different reasons.

And those reasons, I think, are more in line to why people used to come on, which was this could be a cool experience. Someone signed me up as a gag i don't know you know like i might this might be out of my comfort zone but like i want to challenge myself to try something new like i don't know yeah i don't think jason came on and like for a lot of people i think this has become a business of like just pretending to like want to find love and it's all about the followers and all that shit but yeah i think jason might be an outlier in terms of he's really there for the experience and open to seeing what happens and i was way off and i'm happy i was he seems like

he's very charming yeah incredibly good looking and i love how to to get back to Gabby and the tears also. I mean, my heart breaks for her when she's discussing her relationship or lack thereof with her mom. And you can tell, like, just like in might be a deal breaker for someone or that this is a hurdle for her to have to get over in terms of telling someone. And that takes a lot. And every time that she has to talk about that, I mean, you can't imagine like not having a relationship with your mom. I'm sure a lot of people who are watching the show have that. I have such a close relationship with my mom. So for her to have to tell this over and over and over again must be, I can't even imagine. And then she tells him, and you could tell she's so scared to reveal this about herself, not just scared to reveal it about herself, but she has to deal with it every time she talks about it. And then not only does he understand,

but then he kind of talks about his understanding with therapy. And you wouldn't think that from looking at him, which we shouldn't judge a book by its cover. But I feel like she was probably so relieved. And then I loved how she's like, I love a man who understands therapy. I loved that moment. I remember when she posed the question the same way she did with Eric and I was watching with Natalie. And I was like, well, let's see if he could do a better job than Eric did. And I was like, well, let's see if he could do a better job than Eric did. Because like, again, Eric, he just, he lacked, I think, the, at least the emotional maturity to be there for Gabby.

It doesn't make him a bad guy. Maybe he has some growing up too. But like, it was clear when, when Jason mentioned that he's been through therapy, that he was more emotionally prepared to like handle like the awkwardness or the emotional stress of like, that came with like that heavy story that Gabby has where she was looking for like empathy. Yeah. She was looking for empathy. She was looking for like just comfort and looking for someone she want. I'm guessing she wanted to see someone who I could baby date that I can go to with my problems and will not make me feel judged, but like will be empathetic

and I can count on and I won't be scared to tell them things because I don't want to feel judged. I don't want to feel weird. I don't want to feel like, you know, Eric, I don't think you tried to, but when he kind of had the like, I don't know what to say. And when you don't know what to say, that makes the other person sharing that information be like well am i that weird i'm exactly what i was worrying that i was is like this like someone that no one can relate to and and jason did quite the opposite which is like hey man fuck man i yeah i'm a therapist let me talk about my issues too i'm a man you know and i i agree with you nick like eric by no means not a bad person but when he was just sitting there with no response, I was waiting and waiting. And then the scene cut and I was like, oh, no,

like, say something to make her feel seen and heard. And you don't have to relate to it, but just to make her feel like it's OK. So then I was so happy to see Jason's response. Because that's the thing is, like, I feel like you can be in a situation where you know that someone is doing their best and they might not have the perfect words to say, but there's just this like energy and intensity, like especially in someone's eyes where you know that someone is doing their best and they might not have the perfect words to say but there's just this like energy and intensity like especially in someone's eyes where you know that they're trying their very hardest and i think sometimes when people don't know what to say and get more in their head and are kind of like play it a little bit more quiet it just comes off as like making you feel more isolated and then already like emotionally isolating situation so we we do we all agree that like if if it's not

jason and tino at the end we're surprised like it was just a show nate continues to have strong showings he does but there's just something i think i'm getting i mean to be honest i'm i i feel like right now if you had to make me pick like the next basher like nate's the only choice for sure and maybe that's just because we haven't seen a lot of character development from some of these other guys hayden gets a redemption i mean we've we've seen a lot of nate and it's been a lot it's all been great and like obviously being a father is a great storyline for a future bachelor i i feel like gabby likes him and respects him and and feels good when he's around like I don't know I just I'm not I'm not sold on the connection so I first of all love Nate as Bachelor I'm here for

that I I'm not a hundred percent convinced that Gabby ends up with Jason I love them together I mean I'm not sure but Tino yes like if he is not at the end I'm shocked yeah I'm yeah and I do think Gabby plays her her cards close to the vest and where Rachel's what you see is what you Rachel obviously is very uh giving uh with how she feels and for the audience to to watch and I think Gabby's you know every time gabby's like yeah you know you when gabby says yeah she's thinking right about how she really feels about it and just trying to be courteous and polite to that response but she's always i think processing right and she's very reserved and like i don't think she she'll like she I think, share her thoughts later on or something like that.

Right. And Rachel, I think, is more the opposite. Yes. That's my read. I agree. And I think that's spot on to say that Gabby is quite literally thinking about it and processing as she's speaking on camera. Where I think Rachel is more quick to come to a reaction. And she just lets it all out. But I do

have to say, I'm so impressed with both of these women. As you said, I think they really are there for each other. I think they're very close friends. I don't love, I don't like this format. I don't think it's fair to them. But I will say, I don't think the intention was bad. When I interviewed Gabby and Rachel at the beginning of the season, we spoke about it. And they've said this a million times. They're like, no catfights, but there's a lot of drama. But something they said to me that really made a lot of sense was, it actually wouldn't have felt right in the moment to choose just one of them.

Because after what happened with Clayton, they both were mortified and humiliated and heartbroken on national TV. So they said to me, to just choose Gabby or just choose Rachel, it would have felt like, but what about me? Like we both went through the same thing. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. So I think that the suits, whatever you want to call them, I think that was probably part of the decision. Also, of course, they're trying to continuously evolve this franchise. So I think they're saying, okay, this is a different twist, but also they both do deserve a second chance. I'm going to guess if I am an exec watching this, I'm saying probably won't

do this again, at least anytime soon, because I think it just creates a competitive dynamic. And I don't, again, I really don't think there was malintent so i think that people who are saying they did this to pit women against each other i don't believe that i think that they thought it's good for a programming change and they both deserve a second chance but seeing this play out it gives too much power to the men yeah and i i don't like it because yeah and then you if you have a bunch of guys scared about their edit and very bro-y and not willing you know if you don't like cast a chad johnson or some of these like a luke parker you know they're going to get their drama somewhere and it's just it's so easy whether

they're even trying to do it or not like like rachel there's a great segue into like rachel's reaction to gabby's group date with the fight i don't know if anyone did anything wrong you know like i i know like could you saw the reaction from the man from the man after gabby like said hey no one came up to me and you saw a bunch of like what i took as genuine like disappointment in them they were like you know what yeah i could have i disappointment in them they were like you know what yeah I could have I should have like they realized I've been in their shoes and I know what it's like to be really nervous of being like I don't know it's a group date I don't do I go up and talk to her you know if you're if you're Tino and you're a front runner you don't want to

overplay your hand having just got a one-on-one so maybe you want to back off and if you're one of the guys who like barely even fucking knows Rachel because you haven't had any time and you're like this chick doesn't like me you know like thing you're just a little awkward too and like you you're just afraid of pissing off everyone around you so you play it safe like that's that's always happened in the house because you're damned if you do damn if you don't like you know they say the road the the road to hell is paid with good intentions well the road to like a villainous edit is also oftentimes paid with good intentions like you can like you can have the best intention sometimes and get fucked if they have no other options because you're assertive and you go for what you want and you want to make your bachelorette feel like you've noticed her and

you see her and meanwhile other guys would be like it's not very gentlemanly of you, bro. You know, you play some villainous music and they get fucked. So I get the guys, but I also get Rachel, you know, being like, the fuck? All these guys are like spewing all these nice things about, you know, about Gabby. You know what this season has like reminded me of? And like, well, I think it sucks in a lot of ways for Gabby and Rachel what this season has like reminded me of and like well I think it sucks in a lot of ways for Gabby and Rachel

as we've talked about I think it's like a it's a microcosm of modern dating and like being on dating apps and what I mean by that is like here you have Rachel

we all agree that Tino's her front runner she's probably gonna pick him and when she's with Tino it's great but by default you have all these other guys where she's been told

the expectation of the bachelorette is, and Rachel said this, is like, these guys are supposed to be like obsessed with me, basically, like fighting for me. And they're not. So she has this expectation of what she thinks should happen. And even though the expectation really is irrelevant to her overall happiness, especially if she's able to find one, it just bothers you. And when you're on dating apps and you like have

access to all these people and you're swiping right, every time you swipe right and it doesn't match, there is rejection there. Every time, every time you're on there. And if it doesn't matter if you like swipe with some guy, you're like, you like their body, you think they're pretty cute. There might be one more guy who you like, ooh, or girl, if you're a guy, same thing, right? And there's just like, by definition, rejection in that like them not matching you. And so you see Rachel focusing on the attention she's not getting rather than the attention she's receiving. And the fact that it's being compared, like both Gabby and Rachel, every situation they're in are focusing

on the attention the other one's receiving from their men versus the attention they're not receiving from theirs. And I think it just kind of speaks to like why people like in the real world out there dating was so many people feel frustrated because it's just like, it's so easy to get in our heads about like things not working out for us because today you have to be willing to get rejected. You have to put yourself out there. And you have all this access, this easy access of people who should be swiping right on you but aren't. And again, like this date, these guys were all upset with themselves.

And then you can compare it to modern dating apps. Well, you don't know if this person you wish they would have swiped right was even on their phone. Maybe they haven't been on Bumble for six months. But like you don't know that. You're always thinking of the worst case scenario as it relates to like your ego and your feelings. And I think that's what you're seeing with Gabby and Rachel. It's fascinating. But I empathize with the women because it's like it's so hard to be the lead.

And this is making it that much harder because you want to be able to believe in yourself. And this environment is making it really easy for Gabby and Rachel to doubt themselves. Totally. And something, well, first of all, another point that I think makes it similar to modern dating and dating apps is when Rachel was so upset, part of me was like, oh my gosh, poor Tino. Like, they just went on this great part of me was like, oh my gosh, Portino. Like, they just went on this great date. I'm like, what about him? But then, first of all, as the lead, you're told, you know, don't pull a Claire. Like, don't just go to one person. Keep your options

open. And then if you think of modern dating with dating apps, the pool is wide and you do want to keep your options open. So I think that's one thing, but something with the format that I actually do like, I spoke about what I don't like. And I think also pretty much all the drama other than really Hayden, if you think about every single piece of drama, it would have been eliminated had there only been one lead. It all has to do. It's all based off the two leads. Right. And I think that is a distraction because if the point of the show, yes, is of course you're creating a TV show you want to entertain. But if the point for the lead is to find love, this is all a distraction and they're dealing with things that they shouldn't have to. That said, first of all, we'll see what happens if they both find love. Great. In the real world, and this is what I like about the format, in the real world you aren't just one person with 30 men who have no other options.

So with this, in a way, maybe it makes it a bit more realistic because usually you have 30 men, right? And they have one woman. And they're basically being told, I have to be obsessed with this woman. And then the point is to win. And it becomes a bit more of a game and a bit more of a reality show. But I guarantee you that on a normal season, all 30 people are not into the lead. They're pretending because that's the game. So now it makes it a little bit more realistic

that they're able to say, well, I might like this person more. And even if they're not pretending, they're just, the environment has convinced them that they're in, like it's this competitive. There's no other option. It's like you're in this microcosm, you're in this bubble,

there's one person and you want to win. So in that sense, I think it's a bit more realistic to the real world. But there look, it gives us a lot to talk about. So it's certainly interesting. But I do when when Rachel said in her confessional that this was harder and worse for her than being a contestant. I believed her. I believed 100%. It is harder. And that to me, I was like, oh, like that's, when you're going to be the lead, you don't think that that will be your experience. You don't. But I think everyone feels that way just because it is so hard. And I think it's extra hard for them because now at a minimum,

usually if you're the lead, there's a sense of like well i'm i'm the it person i have the power and and i think what you're seeing is these women constantly recognizing they don't feel powerful in their role as the bachelorettes now whether that's the producers like leaning in or they're just like the environment has like leads to them like constantly doubting themselves. You know, I don't know. But that seems to be what's what's going on. Yeah. And I do think, again, it's just the format.

It just lends itself to all these problems. But I have a good feeling. I feel like this season is going to pan out in a good way for both of them i think they haven't they publicly both stated because like every season you're either sometimes allowed to say it sometimes i wasn't allowed to say it sometimes they they give you permission to say i i found love you'll have to find out with who and it seems like they both publicly have been allowed to state that they found love which probably is a smart move on the on the hot the powers that be to say, don't worry, there's a happy ending.

Right. They also, when I interviewed them, they also said that they really couldn't imagine doing this without each other because just having a friend, which again is more like the real world. Like think about dating. You're always asking your friends, what do you think about this person? What do you think about this? And I thought a moment, it was such a small moment, but I actually loved it when they were on the Paris date. I know what you're going to say. The bathroom? When they were both inside and they were looking outside. Oh, okay. Yeah. When Rachel was like, you have to go to the bathroom. And then they just went inside. And then they're like looking and they're snickering

and you could, that was like two girls that are together looking and you're like look how cute they are what do you think they're talking about and i like loved that moment oh i was uh envious of them in that moment to like have that companionship even if if i if i was had like if it was like me and ben it would have been nice to just been like hey what do you think right yeah like you definitely feel alone um it's not this you know and so yeah i think there's pros and cons yeah and that's why i think as i said this is not my favorite format i think that the the problems that they're going up against it just it's a lot of unnecessary drama that said i do think that there are some points that really make it relate

more to the real world. So that's why I said, like, if I'm in charge of the Bachelor, I'm probably looking at this saying, like, probably won't do this next season.

However, like, an interesting try. Would you want to see it with two men? Yes. I think it needs to be done with two men because I don't think

it's fair just to... By the way, optics, it's bad if it's just women. Correct. So I do think that they should do it with two men. So yeah, I think that maybe they will try it again, but I think that this was a try.

It was a good try. I think that it came from a good place, both to give them both another chance and to change up the format. But I just think there's a lot of icky territory that comes up. But yes, I'm here for a double Bachelor season. While I was way off on Jason, I think I nailed the Logan of it all.

Yeah. Him accepting the rose. I said the last two weeks that I think Logan's going to try to jump ship. Okay. and switch. I didn't think it'd be this early. But I want to hate Logan. But objectively, I don't think he's a bad guy. I don't think he's doing anything wrong.

Well, I was going to say I'm going to have an unpopular opinion. I think, given the format, that I don't hate him. Because I think it's not, in certain times, it's not only unfair to the women, it's also unfair to the men. Because you have him here, if there was only one lead, he only has one choice. And then you're doing everything to try to end up with that woman. But the men have given, they've been given two options. So again, in the real world, you date multiple people so that you can find the one that you think you might be the best match for.

And it is about finding love. And these women essentially called dibs on these men. You can criticize Logan for accepting it, but I agree with you. But also, okay, let's play this out because I thought about this a lot. The state that Rachel is in, disappointment after disappointment after disappointment, this amazing date with Tina, which is such a bright spot.

And again, I think we all agree here, they'll probably end up together. But she said herself, like it's just rejection after rejection. And I think on that group date with the boxing, when she had this meltdown, it's because it's just too much. Like, she's hitting her breaking point.

It's too much happening. Imagine if Logan up there said, no, I can't accept this because I like Gabby. That would have been horrifying. So I hope that the way in which it's dealt is that he tells the producers, he tells whoever, like, I feel horrible. I accepted this rose. I didn't know what to do because I didn't want to say no up there on the spot. How do I deal with this?

And Rachel specifically said last week, the thing, part of the reason why she felt so embarrassed and she said this to Gabby is they were kind of having a debate like, what's more embarrassing? What's worse? And Rachel pointed out that I got rejected in front of all these men, like center stage. So like, like you said, maybe Logan was considering that. Like he definitely looked like a guy who knew what he wanted to do, but didn't know how he should go about it. But he, it seemed like he recognized like this, this is, this is going to require some tact and some thoughtfulness and i

don't have an answer also however he handles it right or wrong i and if he you know if he pulls like a hayden i'm going to criticize him but in a world where especially nowadays there's a lot of disingenuous people going on and just being like whatever just i'm not here like i'm whatever just tell me who to like i'll like i'll play but like logan must know he's like this is this is a risky proposition it is not the safe play there are more ways to go wrong for him than right and like if you're logan and you're just like you know i'm not either of their favorites but like whatever he is trying to make this as genuine as possible for him and a show that's about love and so like he's being authentic we don't know how he's going to handle it and what he's going to say but i think like i think you're on the same page just like i

want to dislike him because i'm like i'm just like annoyed maybe by his like face or like his body language like you could tell like when he was, you could tell he's in his head. And it kind of comes across as a little dickish and aloof when he was saying goodbye, like Rachel saying goodbye to all these men. And if you focused on Logan, he just kind of has a bit of a sour energy to him. But that sour energy could just be like, I don't know what to do. I think it's hard to root for him because there's no i just don't see a way that it could go well because i feel like

there's a zero chance gabby can even if gabby was like yeah i had really felt a spark with you and like in whatever conversation rachel and i had where we were deciding who we were giving roses to like rachel kind of threw your name out there first and like i wasn't going to fight her on it i have people i feel stronger about but like there's no way Gabby can like act on this potential connection without it being a huge betrayal to her friend I'm definitely not rooting for Logan yeah but I'm just saying no my gut wants to like criticize him and be like oh you this is wrong you can't do this and like when I objectively look at it it's like i don't think he's doing anything wrong i agree and i think i i agree with both of you because i don't think

there's a way in which he can continue for all the reasons you just said but i feel like he's just he's a casualty of this format like he didn't make up his mind early enough on which woman he wanted to be with. And now he's realizing that he might have a change of heart, which is a natural, normal thing. Again, if you're on the dating apps. And I think that now Gabby probably can't go with him because it's a betrayal to her friend.

Also won't want to. But I think he goes home next week. But hopefully he deals with it in a good way. I weirdly think she's going to keep him. You do. I don't know why. And I think the safe pick is what you're saying. Right.

I think if she keeps him, I think he's good TV. And I think he is willing to follow his heart, if it's not the smart choice I think that is a valuable that is something that is valued in that atmosphere and I think it wouldn't shock me regardless of why he is kept and for what reasons I I I have a feeling he'll he'll stay for at least a couple weeks and he'll do it in a way that isn't perceived as all that dickish, but maybe controversial. Clearly, like, while I don't know if the producers are all to blame for pinning these women against each other, I don't think they're like it's their biggest priority not to have these women feel insecure. Like historically, like having a bachelorette that expresses insecurities is something that they have always valued and so or this leads to potential more of that and in all

fairness like any lead right like you want a lead to feel yeah yeah like the most common question on this show is how does that make you feel i want to hear how that makes you feel good or bad i want i mean it's what the show is about right you know and we like people we like watching people feeling insecure and in their feelings invulnerable and sad and a mess and that's sadly fun for us to watch you know so okay this is okay, this is how I hope. I know I said, I think Logan goes home. I hope he goes home. Now I'm changing. I have the same intention for this. I hope that whatever happens with Logan is at the decision of Rachel and Gabby. Like, how I would want to see this play out is I hope that he essentially says, look, I am more into Gabby. I didn't want to say this during such a public rose ceremony. Rachel,

we have a private conversation. I don't think Rachel's really into him anyway. So then maybe Rachel says something like, thank you for doing this. You really dealt with this in a mature way. And yeah, if Gabby wants to keep you, I'm fine with it. And if the girls make up that decision on their own, then maybe. I don't think it's going to happen next episode, though, because the guys have laid this groundwork saying, let's have a good week. They had that team meeting where they were like, do not do anything out of line.

No, that happens every week. Every week. It's like in Bachelor, every week. Every week ends with a cocktail ceremony. And cocktail ceremonies are just meant for drama. And so every time the drama happens all the guys are just like let's just have a good week

guys let's just have a good week like it happens every fucking every week it's just like it's not totally in their control

if he stays another week and does not fess up to any of this then I hate him then we put him on my shit list and then he goes

into our villain category I hope Rachel handles it the way that you as well. I guess it's up to Rachel. Right. Like, I hope she focuses on what she has and not what she doesn't have. And I agree with you. I don't see much of a connection between her and Logan. I think she staked her claim with Logan in a moment, in a different moment,

she was feeling a little insecure. She got a nice make out from a guy who was easy to talk to, and that made her feel good. But I think as time went on, she's realized there's not much there with Logan. And I hope for the same reason that she doesn't see it as rejection, but more just like, you know what? It didn't work out. Thanks for being up front. I got my stuff going on. I'm really happy with the guys I'm making connections with. I got Avon.

I got Tino. I got... That's the thing. Rachel's got... To me, Rachel's top four for Rachel is stronger than Gabby's top four for Gabby, as we stand now, from what we see. The connections. Aiden, Tyler, Tino.

You love Tyler. Okay, I'm over it. They had that great one-on-one. I will say Tyler had a nice... I just thought, I think he has Ben Higgins energy. Yeah, listen. You were more right about Tyler this episode

than I was. I called him as someone who was getting no attention at first. But Avon, Tino, and Zach, those seem like three decent connections. And you got some potential with Tyler. And with Gabby, we think now Jason because we saw a good day before this episode. With Gabby, we were like, I guess Eric's her front runner. Nate. Nate.

I get Nate, but I just. You don't believe her and Nate. I don't's her front runner. Nate. Nate. Again, Nate. You don't believe her in Nate. I don't know why. I don't. Because I thought Nate's, I think to the thing that Nate said when it was his turn pre-boxing where he said, I noticed the way you look off when you're thinking. When he pointed out these very specific tangible mannerisms, I thought that was the epitome of thoughtfulness in this environment. I think Nate is pitching a perfect game.

And I think he's doing all the right things. And he's incredibly good looking. And he's charming. He's all those things. And that is what is like, it's what's not to like. Who did you, you said that for someone. I'm trying to remember who you said that for someone else. You said they were pitching a perfect game.

But I'm trying to remember who it was. It was for a different reason. I said that before. On this season? No, it was a different season. Context. Oh, it was, oh, it was Andrew. Yeah.

It was on Katie's season. It was just like everything that came out of his mouth. I'm like, beautiful, perfect. Nailing it. Awesome. You know, but like Andrew and Katie, it's just like, I don't know if I'm seeing the connection. And what I think I'm seeing, I could be wrong. I was way off on Jason. Uh, I'm, I'm seeing a guy who's easy to

connect with what's not to like, and, and, uh, and gap, keep in mind, Gabby and Rachel are still figuring this out too. So why wouldn't you be drawn to a guy like Nate? Who's making you feel good and making you feel confident and like brings you up when you're down. But as we talked about last week in that episode, a lot of part what makes a connection is the uncertainty. I think Nate is getting her through this, and I think she's building a connection with Nate through the role he's playing. But for whatever reason, I am just doubting the genuine

like connection of like gabby's you know and him together forever like a deeper connection yeah i just i just i don't know i could be like she might end up in that i don't fucking know i wonder if we see her wrestle more with the idea of motherhood with him because i remember on their one-on-one she said i'm gonna have to think through if i'm willing to like step into that role but i don't have to decide that now. I'm wondering if the season continues. If she'll really hem and haw over that. But I guess what I was saying is I'm seeing stronger.

And maybe it's because Gabby plays her cards closer to the vest. And with Rachel, she's like, I like this guy. So you see who Rachel likes easier. But it seems like she has a strong top four. So I hope for Rachel, that's what she starts focusing on is that like i have three three to four guys that like i'm really excited about i have some strong connections i don't really care if logan doesn't look at me or if logan likes gabby etc etc like we're we're four weeks in we're four weeks away from hometowns. I'm going to focus on these strong connections that I have and try to build those.

Right. That's what I hope for. Yeah, I agree. And I think to your point, nobody likes to be rejected. And I think that's easier to focus. It's easier to focus on the bad than the good sometimes. And we have to all do a lot of self-work to focus on the good. And I hope that for Rachel's sake, she does. But also, again,

a lot of these things wouldn't come up had there not been two bachelorettes. And again, also for Logan. So I think, I feel like, I hope that Rachel doesn't get too upset about it. And I hope maybe she says, okay, I respect that. Thank you. And you know, I'm too far along. This isn't going to work. And then if Gabby wants you sure and then Gabby might say the same thing like I don't know I'm too far along I also I wonder if they're gonna deploy like a visit like a cheer up visit like you know how sometimes when the bachelor is really going through it or the bachelor is really going through it they have a contestant might be hard to have a sneaky little meeting they gotta fly them out to a boat right in the middle of europe it might get harder

but like even just having like tina like visit rachel's area oh yeah listen like it's this show is all about like managing tension you know you push them to the limits and when you feel like maybe you've gone too far yes however you do it you try to like bring them back this show is all about ups and downs i mean they that's life and they're trying to like replicate like stakes just like any movie or tv show like they did sign up for being fucked with right emotionally that the environment itself it's like it's not it's fucking weird it's a group date like fuck and that's something that i feel like with all the criticism for any season we all do need to remember if you're on this show

you signed up for a tv show and yes you're in it because hopefully you want to find love but you did go on a tv show so some of this you did sign up for nothing yes nothing's free oh i have a question for you nick what do you think about showing behind the scenes with the men at the rose ceremony? I feel like that's new. Yeah, this whole like guys. Well, what's new is like they don't make in the past. They don't go back to the line. They're all standing.

Like you'd have the guys with roses like off to the side, but they'd be in the group. But now they have them like. Go to the green room. Right. Literally. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. I like the Right. Literally. Yeah. I like it. Yeah.

I like the commentary. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because it's also, I think, very insightful to see when they speculate, the guys speculate about who's coming out when they were like, Logan, it's got to be Logan. Because it's like, it's cool to have that barometer for like, what is the house's perception of who is a ringer.

I think it's interesting. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I actually had one question that i was thinking about which is like what are the what is the wisdom on leads initiating kisses versus contestants because i think in sort of like the gendered expectation of like men maybe being more in like generally in culture expected to initiate intimacy but then you have like the bachelorette are the ones in this position of power and i feel like i've just noticed a lot this season like gabby and rachel were leaning in and i was curious if that's

something that you think is pretty typical were they like i don't know when i was the bachelor the women were often the initiators i think part of it is just like, I just was tired and now I just like, I don't wanna kiss a 14th person. But like, I was the only bachelor, like you know, for them it was like, I've been waiting all night to talk to you and I'm just like, okay. So there's a little fatigue there. I don't know if I really noticed. I think, my guess is the contestants often

are more the initiators, except with their favorites. Like I think my guess is the contestants often are more of the initiators, except with their favorites. Like I think if you see the leads leaning in, I haven't been paying that close attention to it, so I don't know. But like it wouldn't shock me if like Rachel's excited. Like when Rachel see Tino, it's like, trust me, she's been like waiting for this for like days. Like all she's really wanted to do is hang out with Tino. If that's her favorite, that's usually what happens. One thing that I noticed about Tino

was how carefully he was holding the umbrella over Rachel. Like he was with his goddamn life protecting like that woman's clothing and hair from getting wet. And it struck me as like, oh, one of the reasons that it seems like

they're such a good match is because I think for Rachel, that stuff matters a lot. We're like, I think if she felt like she was like, and he wasn't even holding the umbrella, like, you know, like feeling noticed in certain ways. It would have been like, get your own. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that goes. This is not practical.

We need to. Do we need to be like, you know, like drips off the edges. He'd be like holding it. So that was like right over her head. Yeah. drips off the edges he'd be like holding it so that was like right over her head yeah but i think that goes to show what type of guy tino is and how emotionally aware he is to bring this full circle you know nick was saying when he didn't assume that she would want children even though by society's standards that typically is the assumption so i just feel like he's very

emotionally aware and he always is looking out for the woman for he was raised right that's all we have to say tino's a good egg he is a good egg he's like and i didn't want to like him for some reason or like no i didn't want to like him but i i was just like i was like okay very seems very perfect which i feel like is like a setup for feeling disappointed but he's a good similar facial characteristics to tyler cam Yeah, I did actually notice that. I mean, they just have model faces. They don't look the same, but they definitely have similar structure. Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to blow all of your minds.

So I always, while I'm watching, I always, especially at the beginning, I always stalk on Instagram. I'm like, oh, I want to see what this person's about when I become more invested. So yesterday, I was stalking both Tino and Jason. Tino used to have very long hair. This is like in recent memory, like down to here, shaggy hair. And I think it'll make. Can I see this picture? I think it's going to change your perception, but like in an even better way.

Because he seems very, like you said, almost Tyler Cameron. I didn't get that, but very like model-esque and perfect. Oh, my God. Wow. And he's like a surfer. Yeah. Like it's a lot like there's a different side of him. It's gorgeous. It's a beautiful man. Jesus. I'm like, that's yeah, that man's in Venice.

And he works with Ronald McDonald. He looks like a Hemsworth brother. He literally looks like a Hemsworth brother in that photo. man jesus i'm like that's yeah that man's in venice and he works with ronald mcdonald's brother he literally looks like a hemsworth brother in that photo yeah you're right he does like i'm jason mamoa kind of how is he not getting more like like uh you know like the hype that peter from rachel season got or tyler got like kind of like just true like babe hype why isn't tino getting more babe hype he also i he does a lot of appears to do a lot of charity work with Camp Ronald McDonald with children

like he seems like a really good guy I found this all out last night and I was like oh my god I like him even more oh Tino Tino and Jason's very

surfery and outdoorsy which I liked because sometimes the investment banker aura can give you you kind of think they're a one-trick pony yeah he's like very outdoorsy and i don't know i liked what i found like i really i really i did a 180 on jason yeah oh spencer spencer's i still i think all right well let's wrap it up who are give me your top fours for each of the

I mean with Rachel I'm just going full Tino like I don't even think I should do more Tino Tino Tino well because you see them together and actually Nick not to embarrass you but I remember during your season and I wish I remembered which woman

it was because I was probably wrong but I remember watching it at my aunt and uncle's house and my aunt was like see that chemistry you just believe it like she likes him and it was you you were making out with someone I forget what scene but that's the energy that I get when Tino and Rachel my god I'm like that is a different kiss it's not a fun kiss it's not enjoyable like she is very into it oh yeah um Gabby I'm not gonna give you a top four but a top two I think Jason and Nate I still really like Nate I think it is more that I think I'm giving him more than what you're giving him like I don't think it's just fun I think she actually really likes him and how he makes her

feel we'll say yeah I mean I definitely could be wrong. I was, I've, uh, I've been wrong as much as I've been right so far this season. I just want to say props to Quincy. Uh, you've, you've changed my, at least adjusted my perception on anyone who is a life coach on this show. I, uh,

I quite liked Quincy. I know some life coaches, IRL, and they're lovely people. I feel like it's easy to get a bad rap. Yeah. But I liked when- Because of the Carls of the world.

The Carls of the world. Yes, the Carls. And what's his name from earlier this season? The Mentality Coach. The Mentality Coach. But Quincy, he was one of the good ones. I'm sad to see him go. During his ITM when he was like, do I want a date with Gabriela?

Oui, oui. Yeah. Really, really loved Quincy. i hope to see him on paradise yeah so genuinely sad when he didn't get you i want to see him on paradise too yeah and you know who i don't want to see on paradise is hayden i'm sure he will be but i do not want to see him put him away uh yeah i don't think there's a redemption there other than nate do you have any potential, like, Bachelor hopefuls? Oh, that's a great question. Let's go through it.

I just think, like, Nate's – when you consider that Tino is going to be with Rachel. Jason – Yeah, Jason would be not such a dynamic lead. But, like, other than Nate, I feel like – I mean, if in some – It's also way too early, but – Yeah, it's a little early. But Nate would be a fantastic.

Fantastic. He's got all, he seems like he has all the. He's also just like really emotionally intelligent. And it seems like. Age appropriate. And the way that he not only says things that are like so thoughtful and genuine to Gabby, but I feel like within the house, the way he reacts to the way people talk, like it doesn't feel like he's trying to put on the show

of being a good guy. It just feels like he lives life with high character and integrity. There was a moment where Hayden was talking to Nate and he was trying to explain himself and Nate was just like, nah. Yeah. He was just like, nah.

No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. You know, something that I do hope we see soon and we gave Meatball a lot of love or shall we call him James, but I think at this point. He's probably just there to be there.

I don't see either of these women being into him. I think that he was there to be the savior. And now he's kind of in the friend zone. I think they both respect him. They'll give him a couple weeks. And then when it's too weird to keep him around. I feel like he's a potential paradise. I was going to say.

He'd be great on Paradise. Made for Paradise. Meatball. Meatball. Meatball. He'll be great. And I really do like he's a potential paradise. I was going to say, he'd be great on Paradise. Made for Paradise. Meatball. Meatball. He'd be the name like Meatball. He'll be great and I really do think he's a good guy

and I hope that he finds love on Paradise but he's got to go now. They're not into him. You can see the Paradise opening credits of Meatball with a huge sub

jumping it on himself in the beach like it's written already. Yes. Well, Elizabeth, as always, such a pleasure to have you. Thanks for having me.

Please let my audience know where they can follow you, watch your stuff, all that great stuff. So Variety, obviously. Magazine comes out every week, Variety.com at all times. And then my socials are eWagmeister on all platforms. All right. And then, Amanda, what do we have tomorrow? Tomorrow we have the one and only Holly Madison is with us for Going Deeper. Holly Madison from The Girls Next Door and the, what is it, Secrets and Lies at the Playboy Mansion.

By the way, though, she's fantastic in that. And I will give a, I would recommend everybody watch that. I did a lot of coverage on that docuseries and it's very eye-opening and important to watch. And with her we'll be talking about jojo siwa and candace cameron beret we'll talk a little nuts but anyways yeah it's it's been a very drawn out saga um we've got some neo-cheating scandals and also couples uh last ditch effort retreats to say like exorbitantly expensive retreats where couples will spend thousands of dollars to save the relationship usually after an affair we'll talk about the efficacy of those

well tomorrow i'm going deeper thanks for listening guys don't forget to send your questions at ask nick at cast me.com cast with a k for all your ask nick queries questions i don't know submissions uh we'll see you tomorrow bye