The Viall Files - E456 Going Deeper with Holly Madison - Life After Playboy plus Jojo & Candace “Rudest Celeb” Drama

Episode Date: August 3, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files, Going Deeper edition! Today we are joined by TikToker, reality TV star, and former girlfriend of Hugh Hefner, Holly Madison! On this episode we dive into talking about the release of the new documentary Holly is in about the Playboy Mansion, reflecting on her time living there, and learning to find healthy love after leaving Hefner. We also talk about what bothered her most with her portrayal on Girls Next Door, finding support within friendship despite Hefner creating drama between the women, and finding agency in your sexuality. We also jump into some pop culture topics such as the drama between Jojo Siwa and Candace Cameron Bure, what celebrities owe you in fan interactions, Will Smith’s attempt at an apology, Ne-Yo’s cheating drama, and luxury retreats couples are going to in order  to save their relationships. We then welcome on two Texting Office Hours Callers. Our first caller is a fitness trainer who shoots her shot on a man she’s teaching via a post-it note. With him flaking and moving away soon, she wonders if she should give it one more chance before moving on. Our next caller is interested in two guys, worrying that she may have ruined a date with one by only having limited time. Now she must come to terms with modern dating and realize that she may be on a roster and he may have lost interest for a reason not of her doing.  “When we’re frustrated, we want our partners to read our minds.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  If you would like to get some advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Office Hours” in the subject line!  Be sure to check out my sports radio show Fandemonium, Wednesdays @ 3PT / 6 ET  on Amazon's Amp app.  Click the link to download Amp using my code NICKVIALL https://apps.apple.com/us/app/amp-host-live-radio-shows/id1586403838 Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Brooklinen: Go to http://www.Brooklinen.com and use promo code VIALL to get $20 off your purchase of $100 or more and free shipping. Article: Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit http://www.Article.com/VIALL and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @hollymadison @hollyjeanmadison See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile. What episode are we on? Episode what is this going to be? 456. Yeah. Nailed it. Getting close to 500. I know. I was thinking about that actually. I told Nick that he should wear that suit you got for Ben's wedding. I think we should travel.

For Ben's wedding? Honestly, I probably should. I regret that purchase. That was an expensive purchase. Is it black tie? Black tie 500? It was expensive and it was like, I don't, I was so dumb. I was just like, because it was, it's like, it's a really nice suit, but it's like.

It's midnight blue, right? It's pinstripes. And like, you just can't like, you wear like a black suit or a Navy suit. Like you can wear it a bunch of times and like different shirt and mix it up. We can't. This one's a statement piece. Should we wear like flapper dresses? And it was just like, ugh.

Every time I'm like, I really regret it. It was just a- Well, you could wear it on the 500th. But more than like a tuxedo? It's up to you. You know, whatever your heart wants. We have a great episode for you today. The one, the only, and the wonderful Holly Madison is with us. You know her from her time on The Girls Next Door, one of the documentary of the Secrets of the Playboy Mansion, very popular on TikTok and Instagram. What a great conversation. Share some stuff about, obviously, her time in the Playboy house, but we'll-

We'll let you listen. We'll let you listen. Obviously, texting office hours, get some updates on some pop culture stuff. Anything you ladies want to mention before we get to Holly? I think we just jumped to Holly. Okay. It was great. Well, next week,

we have the wonderful Ating Agutu. She is feeling better. She was supposed to recap, I think, was it the premiere? Anyway, she's back next week to help us recap episode five of The Bachelorette. We look forward to having her on.

She's hysterically, wonderfully funny. Does that make any sense? Also a big Badger fan. Expert. Great takes. Rachel Bilson is back with us on Going Deeper.

Love her. You will not want to miss that. Other than that, don't forget to subscribe, rate, write nice things about us on the reviews if you want. Tell your friends.

And let's get to Holly. Holly, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. We are so excited to have you. How have you been? Thanks. I've been good. Living life. Living life. What's your world looking like these days? I'm a mother of two, so a lot of kid time. I'm starting a podcast with Bridget from Girls Next Door and we're launching that in like three weeks. So we're excited. We're doing like, it's a rewatch podcast. So we're watching like all the episodes and giving all the behind the scenes dirt. Yeah. So it's a lot of stuff. It's like a, it's kind of like a therapy session for me, but it's fun because I get to do it with a friend. Yeah. Well, you've obviously been a part

of like the recent like documentary that's come out, Secrets of the Playboy Mansion. Yeah. And you have your book that talks a lot about it too. And a lot of people have, but you specifically have shared stories about your time there that kind of paint a different light on everything. And you mentioned, obviously, this recap meant to be therapeutic. I watched the documentary. It's really well done. You come across really well on it. And I think it's something that a lot of people watch now, especially as we talk about power dynamics and relationships and how we have to be careful as we enter in relationships. year goes by and a lot of like the documentary was like kind of talked about like Hugh Hefner's legacy yeah you know versus like what he wanted his legacy to be versus you know what it is and I'm curious like now that time has passed like what do you think from your perspective do you

think the the legacy of Hugh Hefner and specifically Playboy should be and like what it is what is it to you oh my god I mean I wouldn't even go out there and say what I think it should be. Cause to me, it's so, when I go back and think about it, it's so overwhelming and kind of like this traumatic way that it's like, I kind of like shut out everything else, like what everybody else thinks about it. But for me, when I shared my story, it was just important for me to share everything about it. Like the bad things as well as the good things. Because on Girls Next Door, our lifestyle was packaged to look just very fun and happy and almost like family friendly in a way. And after I left the show, I was kind of like just going out living my life.

And I'd run into people every day who would come up to me and just have assumptions about my life or think they knew how things were. And it really started to bother me after a while because I felt like when I would just respond to these people and say what I thought was the nice thing to say, like, oh yeah, everybody's great or whatever. I started to feel like I was living a lie and it just really started to weigh on me. And I felt like I had a lot to share as far as, like you said, power dynamics and relationships and relationships that are abusive in different kinds of ways, whether they're like emotionally abusive or, you know, financially abusive or whatever. I mean, obviously the situation I was in was really unusual. And I think because it was so unusual, I was able to

make excuses for it for a long time because obviously you get into it knowing it's not like a typical relationship. So I made a lot of excuses for it, but I found that my story connects with a lot of people and they see echoes of it sometimes in their own relationships that they then got out of. What are some things as you went through it that you've, as you reflect back, that you've learned about yourself that regardless if it was a good or bad experience that you've thought, maybe it's advice you give to your younger self or you'd give to a younger person. Cause we, we talk a lot of the show about trying to just be honest with ourselves about like whatever situation we're in so that we can be in more control and make better decisions for ourselves. Like, do you have things that you would say,

Hey, if you find yourself in this relationship and you notice X, Y, or Z, listen to your gut, like don't ignore it. Do you have any of like those examples that you've experienced? Yeah. I think just maintaining your own independence and holding your own boundaries is really important. And it's so hard. I think giving that advice to somebody who's really young, like somebody in their early twenties, because so many people don't even know who they are at that age. They don't even know what their boundaries are. So it's kind of like, if you find yourself in a bad relationship when you're that young, like don't be hard on yourself. Like you there for a reason you're learning it for a reason like you might not even know what your boundaries are but I think knowing what your boundaries are before you're even in a

relationship and just holding strong to those are so important yeah also like when you're in a tough relationship it's hard to get out of and obviously you were able to eventually leave that relationship what were some things that you were able to like what ultimately caused you to leave and what gave you the strength to recognize this is no longer serving its purpose? Because I imagine that must have still been scary and challenging and a little frightful of like, well, what's next for me? Because I think that there's a lot of fear that comes from like, well, any relationship. If you're invested for a long time, that's the environment you know. And even in toxic relationships, it's still what your comfort zone is, right? You're just kind of used to the chaos. And so to leave that can be scary for

anyone. And I'm just wondering how you were able to find that strength and what were some things that made you realize this wasn't the situation I wanted to be in any longer? Yeah, for me, I think the scariest thing about leaving the relationship was because I'd been in this hit TV show and been presented a certain way. And everybody kind of thought they knew me. And I was kind of synonymous with the Playboy brand. And I didn't really know if I'd be able to go out and like lead a normal life or date like a normal person. So that was a big fear for me. But it was a combination of things that finally made me ready to leave. It was like, you know, getting into my late 20s and realizing that

I wanted to have kids someday. And also I'd started working more, whether it was through the show and also like working at the Playboy studio, I started to get a lot more confidence because I was working and that helped. But also like a strange thing kind of happened toward the end of the relationship where the other girls were leaving and it was just me. And he started to get really verbally abusive toward me because he no longer had like the other girls around to kind of like he liked to, you know, encourage drama between the other girls. And he didn't have that anymore. So it was just me realizing that he was the problematic one. Like I could no longer say, oh, I'm miserable

here because of the other girls. Oh, if the other girls weren't so mean, not that Bridget or Kendra were mean. There was a long history of like other women that lived there before that. So I don't want anybody to think I'm talking about either of them. But for a long time, I made excuses saying, oh, it's just the other girls. If they weren't here, you know, this could be a fun situation. But then when it was just me and him, I realized, he was, oh yeah, like this is what I'm dealing with and I can't do it anymore. Wow. Interesting. And then you eventually obviously left the relationship and you mentioned like you had a lot of fears about dating or just, and again, that's a very relatable feeling for whoever you are, you know, but how are you able to make that work

for yourself to like, was it a process? Did you get right back out there? What was, what was dating like for you? And did you, you know, especially like coming from the playboy world, I'm sure there's just a lot of, well, fans and a lot of ignorance and just maybe a lot of annoying questions you might even have gotten on dates. Like how did you manage stuff like that? And how are you able to like make dating successful for you? It was really weird. Yeah, I did get right back into it. And I was single and dating for like three or four years

after I left the mansion. And it was odd too, because I was also like still on TV and I had like a big show in Vegas and like billboards everywhere. So you attract a lot of people who just like want to date the girl on the billboard and then tell all their friends that they banged the girl on the billboard. You know what I mean? So you have to watch out for a lot of that. But I don't know. I don't,

I don't think I have any like any special knowledge or anything other than I just threw myself back out there and I really paid attention to how everything made me feel and what I liked and didn't like. And I think that's so important for people to take note of when they're dating is like, what will I not tolerate in the next person? And what did I like about this person? And what didn't I like? And did I like how I reacted to this thing? Did I not? Like, it's always important to kind of take account instead of just jumping into the next thing without even like doing an evaluation. I know I sound so businesslike right now. You're speaking our language. We talk about like what you said, I paid a lot of attention to how I felt.

We say that ad nauseum on this show to people who call in because that's something I think we take for granted that the ones that who do that because so many, and I've been there, I think we've all been there, especially early stages of dating. We often don't think about

how the relationships we're in make us feel. We're either trying to save it because we're excited about it, we had a crush on them, or maybe we like aspects of the relationship, how it looks, the perception to our friends, all these other outside pressures. And I think we often will not actually be like, am I happy? Does this person make me feel good? I mean, they did when I first met, but I've been sad for four months. And we often really don't. So I think it's great to hear you say that.

Yeah. And there's so much emphasis on how people always want to be picked. And they're like, well, why wasn't I the one for them? And it's not really about that. You should be focusing on how you feel. And did you even really like that person? Love it. Brooke Lennon.

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template just because that was so weird. It was such like a culty, weird relationship that I couldn't really apply it too much. But the next guy I dated after that was really controlling as well. And that was easier for me to break down because that was more a normal relationship. It was easier for me to pick out the things that weren't for me. So it happened after. Okay. What would you say? I mean, I guess I'm assuming there's a lot of misconceptions about a lot of playmates or who have been in that world. And everyone in the public eye, I think, often feels like, that's not really who I am. I'm this and people see me as this. What are some common misconceptions that you think that are about you or things you'd want people to know, like the real Holly, like, you know, things that you have interest in that people might not expect. Yeah. I mean, there's so many, like I could go on forever. I think sometimes anytime you're in the public eye, everybody assumes that you always like want to be relevant and you always want attention. And that anytime you talk about something, it's because you want attention or you want to be more famous. And that's not always the

case. I think, I mean, you might feel this way too. Anytime you've experienced attention from the public eye, like it's not always good. I relate to that. Like, don't get me wrong. I love attention. I've loved, you know, like, but not, I don't always love attention. And sometimes I'm like, weirdly can be very private and I can be very awkward in like large settings where I feel like I'm not meant for this. And so I can often struggle, like my introverted side will come out. And I can struggle with it too. So I totally get that. Yeah, for sure.

Any other ones? Oh my God. I mean, I could go on forever. Like I'm not a gold digger. I don't know. mean, I could go on forever. Like I'm not a gold digger. I don't know. Oh, I guess. I think that one's kind of gotten old. I think people are kind of over that.

That's such a dull one. That's low hanging fruit for trolls. Yeah, exactly. Like I don't even get offended if people call me that anymore. I'm just like. Yeah, what are ones that make you laugh? That one or sometimes like my boyfriend has weird followers that want to think he's single

so they try to accuse me of like lying about dating him even though I don't even talk about him really. Current boyfriend. Yeah it's just weird. What's like one of your biggest concerns or fears now that you're gonna re-watch you know the And because I, as someone who's like seen several episodes of it, and maybe it was just the way they portrayed it or edited it, like it really seemed like you guys were having a nice time. You're like going to the Hollywood Bowl. You talked about, you know, I'm the one in the master bedroom with the dogs. And so are you afraid that's going to like bring back, you know,

repressed feelings or how are you feeling about doing that? I've already watched some of the episodes and the first three I hated hated. I was so mad just because back when they first came out, I was just really nervous about being on a reality show. I just didn't want to be really embarrassed. So as long as something super embarrassing didn't happen, I was fine with it and never thought about it again. But now that I'm watching it 15 years later, I was like, they really portrayed me in a way that I am not. And it bothers me, but I'm glad I get to talk about it now. What were some of those ways that you felt misrepresented? Well, I wasn't really allowed to have a personality on the show at all. The other

two girls were. They gave backstory on them. They showed childhood pictures. They talked about their hopes and dreams within the first three episodes. But with me, you didn't learn any of that until like season four. Like you were like portrayed as like a like a Stepford housewife. Exactly. I like I tried to figure out why they did that because I know the executive producer was really thoughtful about storytelling. So I find it hard to believe that he would just like shove one of the characters aside. The only thing I can figure out is that because, you know, Hef thought of it as his show, but he didn't really show up in front of the camera a lot. Maybe I was supposed to be an

extension of him and just represent his life. I was in real estate school when we were filming the show. They never mention it. They don't talk about what I want to do in the future or what my interests are or anything. And I'm just like, God, no wonder people who hated me hated me. That's such a shame they didn't do that yeah it's annoying looking back on it for sure i'm curious with like in talking about female sexuality and how i think there's been a lot of stuff recently that has led to like even just like with casual sex like the way that's becoming destigmatized and like women are allowed to have sexuality and possess it there's also kind of the counterpoint of the counterpoint

of the way it was portrayed in Playboy was sometimes very much through like a male fantasy lens. And I'm curious for you, like what your perspective was in terms of like how much you felt like you were able to own your own sexuality and like embrace like the humanness of it versus have it be very much through like a male gaze. Oh, that's so interesting because in my particular situation, that's so layered. There are so many layers to that. Like I always really wanted to be in Playboy. I thought the pictorials were really beautiful. And if I would have just done that, that would have been me owning my sexuality. But in the situation I was in, like we weren't even paid for the first season of shows. They just like expected us to do it for free. You know, they, we had a lot of really restricted rules on us. And I think when I

entered into the situation, I thought I was empowered and I thought I was making a choice, but I let myself fall into a situation where I had zero control. So for my particular situation, you know, I can own certain things like I'm comfortable with nudity in certain situations and I wanted to be in the magazine and I think the pictorials are really beautiful, but there was so much else that I just had no, felt like I had no agency whatsoever. Totally. I'm curious also, cause I know Nick mentioned earlier power dynamics, like what were some of the primary things that you think contributed to the power dynamics within the house or rather like what did that look like specifically with Hugh and the way that he would

kind of like assert that control? Yeah, it was interesting because there were a lot of rules, like there was a nine o'clock curfew, you weren't allowed to hold an outside job while you were there, things like that. And you were always kind of under scrutiny. The nine o'clock curfew is kind of wild. It is wild. And you know, that was before I moved in, that was the one kind of rule that I knew about. And I thought, well, I don't really mind that. I wasn't planning on staying very long. You know, I had seen, because I had come up to like Sunday parties and things like that.

And I had seen his roster of girlfriends change all the time. So I thought, well, he likes this revolving door. You know, people stay for like a year, maybe two years. And I was just, you know, in college looking to like save looking to save up some money, get a fresh start and everything. And I wasn't interested in necessarily going out and partying or meeting guys. So I was like, if I have a 9 o'clock curfew for a while, not a big deal. But for a lot of other people, that was a big deal. And when it turned into a situation where I was living there longer, of course, it feels ridiculous when can't, you know, leave for anything or, you know, to go visit your family or anything like that.

Is there like, I know like obviously you're starting the podcast with Bridget, you got some friends, but it sounds like from just walking, watching the documentary, there's a lot of playmates who have had a lot of different experiences and a lot of traumatic experiences. Is there like a community of of playmates who have been there for each other and kind of share their stories? Or you just kind of have your group of friends that have been there? Or how in touch have you been or connected with people from the past who have maybe have had similar experiences? It seems like if you ever go through any type of traumatic experience, it's always nice to know that you're not alone in that.

And have you guys done any of that or connected and shared those stories? Well, I mean, Bridget obviously was there with me the whole time, so she knew what I went through. And as far as, you know, there are other playmates I talked to from that time period who didn't necessarily have the same experience as me because they didn't live in the house, but they understand. As far as other people throughout the years who've also had negative experiences, I'm not necessarily in contact with those people. It's weird because there's like a lot, even other people who've had bad experiences there, like they still don't like me because I was like the first to write a book or something. It's just, that environment is so toxic.

It just like still pervades to this day. But it's like, it has a very like old school school kind of like what is the state of Playboy now? I don't think it's a magazine. I think it's like only fans. Really? Yeah. I think it's like people sign up and create accounts. I don't think there's a magazine anymore and it's not owned by his family or anything. It's just a total separate. I don't really keep up on it, but I was looking the other day because in preparations for doing the podcast, I was like, do they even have playmates anymore? I don't think they do.

I don't think they have for years. Yeah. Because it really, like you said, it used to be considered like I feel like with a lot of women, like a artistic, like a beautiful expression, like, you know, it wasn't seen as like pornography, I feel like. Yeah, it was kind of aspirational. Like it was shocking. Yeah, because you're nude. But it was almost like a beauty pageant or something. It was almost like. I know. I have a lot of like friends that are women or even girlfriends or they were,

you know, it's just like it would be cool to to do that. It was seen as like a really empowering thing. At least that was the perception at the time. And I think you even mentioned in the documentary that like certainly like opened up a lot of doors for a lot of, you know, very like big Hollywood stars. And so like I can see the glamour around it. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's kind of like wanting to be like that beautiful woman on Instagram. But now people can do that on their own because we have like ring lights and remotes for our front facing cameras and Photoshop and everything. And you can put it out there on social media. And if you're lucky, you'll get a following.

But back in the day, you had to do it through somebody else's platform, you know? Yeah. You can self-publish in that way. Yeah, no way. But also for those wondering, spring 2020 was the last printed issue of Playboy. 2020. I don't believe in regrets, but i believe in like learning from our experiences how do you feel about i guess everything you've been through as you are now

you're wildly successful popular you got two you know wonderful children like how do you see your experience and what's like the overall like biggest lesson that you sit down and think that's i really i learned that and that And regardless of what I've been through, it really sticks with me to this day. Yeah, I learned a lot. I mean, for me, I think it's more about boundaries and sticking up for myself and not looking at one person and idolizing them, realizing everybody's human. I think that's probably my personal biggest takeaway. And not getting caught up too, because I was kind of part of the social circle up there for a while, just going to parties and things like that. And, you know,

you meet all of his friends who all think he's an amazing person and nobody has a bad word to say. And it's kind of like this culty environment. It's really easy to get caught up in. Would you get like really frustrated or be like, he's not that, you know, like I, being especially in this town, you meet a lot of people and there's like great, like everywhere, there's great people and bad people and there's people who you know keep it real and then there's people who are like are very polished and very you know and and like you hear things about them or even see it for yourself and you're just like but they're not fucking they're not that great like if people only knew like did that ever get frustrating

well people are so multidimensional. You know, people can be great in some ways. Like somebody could be a really amazing host and be really great to their friends and be really smart and successful, but they could be an asshole in relationship. You know, there's duality in everything. But I think I used to get frustrated before I was able to tell my story. I wouldn't get so frustrated on what people thought about him, but I'd get frustrated because I would meet people every day who assumed things about me based on his version of the story. So that got really frustrating and made me want to tell my story.

Are you, and as you sit now, do you feel like pretty, do you still find yourself like something will come up and you feel like triggered by an experience? Because I mean, I know I've felt that before. Sometimes. And that changes and evolves. Like I said before, like if somebody calls me a gold digger, like I just don't care. Like it's almost funny at this point. But sometimes when those comments make their way to you, you just have to look at it as like a trigger that you need to address. Not that anybody should go seeking out any negativity or anything, but I constantly evolve and I'm constantly not offended by things I used to be offended by.

Yeah. Well, that's healthy. How would Hugh have described the house dynamic and how would he have described you specifically to his buddies? He would have described all his girlfriends as just being like in love with him and me being really in love with him and devoted and everybody's here living their dreams he kind of yeah he seemed like he just it's like his way of answering criticism was like to paint this like fantastical picture of like happiness and and if everything just feels good and like, why is that bad? You know? And it's like, it's like at first it sounds good, but when you peel back the layers, you're just like, I'm not so sure. Yeah, absolutely. He knew really well how

to walk that line too. Well, thank you for being so open about that and sharing your experience. But do we have any uh pop culture segue have you been following the jojo siwa candace cameron ray media attention situation for anybody who's not caught up essentially jojo siwa did a tiktok where she named candace cameron as the i don't her last name always trips me up so i'm just gonna call to call her Candace Cameron Bray, CCB, the rudest celebrity she's ever met. There's been a lot of back and forth between the two of them, but basically what the

interaction that is like the center of this accusation is that when JoJo Siwa was 11, she asked to take a photo with Candace. Candace said no. JoJo Siwa claims that she then saw Candace taking photos with other children, and that was part of what made the experience hurtful. I'm curious, like, as a public figure, I think it gets into a larger question of, like, to what extent do celebrities, like, owe us their attention or moments of their time?

I'm curious your thoughts. I think this story is bonkers. Who says no to a kid, though? When you're on a red carpet. She also said, for context, she said not right now. Yeah, yeah. says no to a kid though when you're also said for context she said not right now yeah yeah no but i get who says nothing to a kid but like haven't we like we've all like been maybe in our head or like i get maybe maybe in that moment candace had something else to do or or was rude or maybe she could have been more considerate eight years ago by and then 19 year old jojo siwa who's got 34

million followers on tiktok just decides to be like you know what i'm gonna call candace marie the rudest celebrity i've ever met for something that i experienced when i was 11 but isn't there i feel like there's a little part of you that like in fantasizing about if you grew like at least for me, in thinking about, oh, if I one day had a following or prominence, being like, and all the people who wronged me, I can spill the tea on it. No, I get it. There's a certain degree that maybe JoJo gets ownership of that experience, or do we think it's very inappropriate for her to... I had the pleasure of interviewing her once. She was wonderfully delightful and she seems very sweet and outgoing. But I just think we have to be careful with our expectations of people.

And if they don't meet up with those expectations of us, that doesn't mean they're bad people. Yeah. I think sometimes when people see you on TV, they feel like they know you and they feel without even knowing they feel this way, they feel like you should know them back. Like, I feel like I've met a lot of people over the years and sometimes people have been disappointed because I'm not like, like, I'm always polite, but maybe they've been disappointed because I'm not like, oh my God, it's so good to see you. Like they're almost expecting something different than just a parasocial relationship. It's like, they almost feel like, well, you should know me too. But without even realizing that, like nobody would admit that in their head, but I think people kind of have this subconscious expectation.

Oh yeah. 100% they do. Like, and I get it. Like that's the kind of root of being a fan is like to have this expectation of what this interaction is. And like, for me again, like I can be introverted. I can be aloof and in my head. Now that's not an excuse to like, I have to like consciously work on that and I have to be present so that, you know, when I am out there, like I'm not giving off the wrong perception, but I do think we're allowed to like have bad days. Yeah, for sure.

And allowed to like not always be on and not be called out on a platform with 34 million followers. And I think that's- And being said, the rudest celebrity i ever met it's like i'm just surprised that jojo is like continuing this i i don't know like and listen i've there's plenty of people i've heard about and i'm sure you probably could say the same thing like especially like bachelor nation i'm critical of some of my peers and sometimes it's because i hear stories like how they berate people how there's a track record of them being like cruel

to people it's like the people who like no they're like fucking mean to raiders you know it's shit like that and it's just like you know i don't share that information but like it's certainly i you know there's a party that wants them to it's that you want them to be held accountable it's like you know again well i've only experienced nice things with ellen she has a there's a laundry list of criticism and behaviors that like like results in this criticism of her like it's not quite the same it's like a one-off situation of not taking a picture and like maybe she had a bad day maybe she forgot you know but i don't think joJo Siwa is necessarily saying like she's a terrible person. Like we need to call this woman out and like cancel her.

I think she's just saying like, okay, if you want me to say the root of celebrity, this is a person that I had an experience with. And like JoJo has said, like I was 11. It was rough for me then. I get it. My guess is she probably didn't realize it would snowball into this. I'm just there, you know, with great power comes great responsibility type of thing and i just you know i wonder if maybe what you're responding to is like would jojo siwa want her interactions with every single fan she's meant to be put under this lens yeah and like is there a certain degree of it's very easy to have these

like very high expectations for public figures and feel very entitled to certain behavior from them without empathizing and considering how we would want to be treated in those shoes. Yeah. And I'm guessing like 11 year old Jojo was probably used to everyone being like, oh my God, I love you. And like taking the time and then it didn't happen. And I, and I, I could get why it would be upsetting, but to your point, yeah, I, there's just no way she hasn't disappointed a fan. Yeah, it's hard not to do. Yeah.

Another thing that I think is kind of interesting in the topic of like kind of public eye and what we're sharing, what we're not. Eight years of lies and deception, eight years of unknowingly sharing my life and husband with numerous women who sell their bodies to him unprotected, every last one of them. To say I'm heartbroken and disgusted is an understatement. To ask me to stay and accept it is truly insane, the mentality of a narcissist. I will no longer lie to the public or pretend that this is happening. It isn't. and so it and then kind of he fired back saying for the sake of our children my family and i will work through our challenges behind closed doors personal matters are not meant to be addressed and dissected in public forums i simply ask that you please respect me and my family's privacy at

this time i know i'm always very careful with the usage of the word like gas lit but it sounds like she what she is describing is that like she was in this relationship. He was hooking up with all these people, women or maybe people caught. And then like, she always knew, but he kept lying to her and kept like making her believe that he wasn't like,

cause she makes it seem like I no longer can believe this is not going on. That's truly insane. It's like, you're expect like, like to ask me to stay. It's like, and it sounds like there was like this was ongoing for a while and he maybe for a period of time was convincing in terms of like hiding this behavior and now i feel like this is probably like a liberating thing for her to like just say i'm no longer

gonna believe this bullshit and i feel like that's very different than what we just discussed about like getting it out there well i'm curious also like through the lens of like motherhood there's one level where it's like just because you're a mom does not mean you're not entitled to like your full experience and that you're not allowed to be honest about the things that are happening to you and that like you shouldn't have to suffer in silence for the greater good of people when like the bad thing was done by him. But then there is also this lens of like, how do you want to protect your family and like keep it out of public perception? I'm curious like how that sits with you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, personally, I wouldn't put anything out there about, you know, my kid's dad.

I don't have anything bad to say about him, but if I did, I would keep it quiet just because I wouldn't want the kids to ever look that up. But it just sounds like she's really mad. Like when she wrote that, it sounds like she just found out. I don't know when she found out, but it sounds like it. It sounds like she's just angry. That had been bottled up. Yeah. It almost seems though too that he's using the, and I get the privacy.

It seems like a bit of a scapegoat answer. Yeah. Convenient for him to request. Yeah. It's like, oh, well, you know. Yeah. As opposed to you doing this thing in the first place it's her fault for saying anything about it yeah it's like it's uh sounds unfortunate well i guess kind of final pop culture thing is like on the topic of

cheating and infidelity there are these couples um sort of retreats in the form of these exorbitantly expensive week-long experiences, usually in tropical destinations that include, in addition to like classic spa amenities, couples counseling and therapy that some couples are using as a last-ditch effort or like in feeling like there's a lot of reconciliation that is just not happening. They're turning to this as their final option. What do we think about the efficacy of a couple's intensive retreat, like eight hours of therapy? But like a for-profit business

to help save relationships. Yeah, that's so clearly catering to people who are in pretty desperate places in their relationship. I guess my first question would be, what's their track record of success? Exactly. It sounds appealing though. If I was going to do couples counseling, I'd want to do it on a vacation. my first question would be like what's the what's their track record of success exactly it sounds appealing though like if i was gonna do couples counseling i'd want to do it on a vacation have you guys seen the like seen the movie couples retreat with like vince vaughn and

jason bateman it's underrated it's really good uh underappreciated but it But it's kind of that. The whole premise of the show is Jason Bateman and... Kristen Bell? Yes. They're in a relationship and they're struggling. So they recruit all their friends to go to Fiji. But it's like a couple's retreat. And then they work out their differences with therapy while also in paradise.

How does it go i mean they all they all they all work it out and and find find love again but yeah i don't know i feel like this is mostly off of cheating relationships well it does beg the question like is it helpful to work out these relationship issues separate from the context in which they usually exist? Like, is it helpful to have this like space where you're separate and you do all this therapy and you're sort of like, you get to say goodbye to regular life and only focus on that versus to actually work through a problem? Do you need to be immersed in like the everyday life that the problem was created in? I don't know what the right answer is, but what?

I would just prefer the vacation. Have you ever done couples therapy with a partner? No, right before I got divorced, we did just because, you know, we have kids and we wanted to make sure that we were going to like co-parent as best we could. So it was more like therapy for like, hey, we made this decision. Do we have any thoughts on the Will Smith apology? Did you see that? No, what did he say? He just sat down and said he was sorry. And what's the words he used?

He was basically, they're like his first question he addressed was, why didn't you apologize to Chris in your acceptance speech? And he said- He was like in a fog. I was in a fog. And did Jada come up in his apology?

Let's see. That marriage fascinates me. He said, so. Right? There just seems like there's going to be a documentary one day. Yeah, there's a lot going on. Oh, totally. About the Smith marriage.

So he said, Chris, I apologize to you. My behavior was unacceptable. And I'm here whenever you're ready to talk. He also said, I want to apologize to Chris's mother. Why? Saying he saw an interview she gave about the slap. That was one of the things about the moment. I just didn't realize how many people got hurt in that moment. So I want to apologize to Chris's mother. I want to apologize to Chris's family, specifically Tony Rock.

We had a great relationship. Tony Rock was my man. This is probably irreparable. Are we okay with Will Smith eventually making, like surviving this? I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist with this whole thing. I think it was completely set up. I think it's way too convenient that the Oscars were struggling with ratings and then this happens and everybody's talking about the Oscars. But do you think it then backfired on Will? I bet he got paid a lot of money. you're saying oh so deep conspiracy he has backroom guarantees that he's still gonna work i think that's so well because there is i've heard this talked about in interviews of like there's a lag even if it's not much for live tv it's like what like seven or twelve seconds so they really not wanted to show

the slap they could have done a weird cut to commercial and they didn't yeah like i think those two men are they probably like saved the the Oscars and they're probably guaranteed careers for the rest of their lives. That's just my theory. It is. Chris Rock was always, he's legendary. He's always been successful, but he definitely got a bump. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

So I'm curious, kind of like growing up in Alaska and then Oregon, right? of like growing up in Alaska and then Oregon, right? It was like kind of like childhood energy and then coming to LA where there's a whole wealth of various practices and kind of just like holistic, more spiritually informed procedures, et cetera. Like what was that like coming from somewhere that's a lot more like kind of like grounded and like you were saying before, like off the grid? Yeah. I just felt like LA had so many things to offer and it was like a whole new world. And especially back then, because I moved here when I was 19 and that was like, you know, before social media and everything. So it was so much harder to really get a window into other people's lifestyles and things like that. So there was a lot to take in. Are there any things that you participate in now that you're like, I can't

believe I do this, but I do it? In terms of like kind of like celebrity – I don't know, like Botox? Or just kind of like more like the ice bath, like more stuff that's a little less – I don't. I tried the cryotherapy, but I started to feel like my butt was going numb. And I'm like, that's not where I want to lose the fat. Get me out of here.

I don't want this to burn fire. I've done the cryotherapy once. It's the same premise as the cold plunge, I think. Yeah. Like you burn more fat when your body's cold. Like working out in a cold pool is like, and it's good for blood flow, and it's good for aging and autoimmune diseases.

There's a lot of health benefits. There we go. Yeah, one thing that I think is interesting is like prenups as a topic of conversation in terms of like whether it's an appropriate thing. I think so often like I have considered that like a celebrity thing, but it really is like an applicable everyday question. I think especially when we talk about like financial autonomy and the way that in relationships that can become such a primary form of like power to assert over one another what do you think of the idea of

bringing up a prenup as a topic of conversation prior to a wedding do you think that's showing i think if you can't have a conversation about money before you get married you shouldn't be getting married i mean yeah like yeah. Like, like, like if you're still like timid and afraid to talk about it, like you're not at that phase in your relationship yet. Yeah. It's, it's one of the number one causes of divorce,

like conversations about money. It's always awkward and uncomfortable, but like to Holly's point, yeah, it's necessary and needed. And like, I think part of like marriages, serious relationships, serious relationships,

committed relationships, having kids is uncomfortable conversations. Yeah. If you're too intimidated to have that conversation, then you don't know your partner well enough yet. I think pre-nibs are often the smart thing. I've seen a, like a lot of divorce lawyers saying like regard, like it doesn't matter like what your financial situation is. Like you should both sign it because at the end of the day, like you talk about like the marriage and what it used to mean and why people got married in terms of the, you know, specifically the lack of rights women had. And like they got married to like gain more rights

back in the day, you know, and things like that. And so things have changed our expectations. So now you still get married. There's still like this intertwine of finances. But ultimately, all it is doing, I think it's based on the idea, if I'm correct, is that what you bring into the marriage is kept separate if the marriage ends, right? Yeah, I think it's everything either party earns after the marriage could be considered community property and you'd have to split it 50 50 unless that's, unless that's stated otherwise beforehand.

And I think it goes kind of hand in hand, not like quite as extreme cause it's not like legal, but the idea of separate bank accounts or putting everything together. Like I feel like that's something that married couples talk a lot about of like, do we have, I know some people that have one combined account and they each have their own separate ones.

My parents had two separate ones and then they like had to go to ATMs together and get their individual cash. And then their friends were like, what are you two doing? And then they just made one big one together. It really depends. I think it depends. One of my old bosses, him and his wife, they basically had their joint account for kids and their family and the college, whatever they needed to like live their lives. And they basically had mutually agreed like allowances. They would pay themselves and put a separate account.

They could do whatever the fuck with. So like you could buy, you know, the big TV if, you know, if that's what you're into or the designer purse and your partner, they weren't allowed to like comment or like decide, well, I, that's silly. I wouldn't spend $3,000 on a purse or I wouldn't spend $5,000 on a TV, whatever they could save up or treat themselves or whatever. And it was all individual expenses. And then everything they did together with it, whether it's kids or trips with each other was all like, and I honestly like seem to really makes a lot of sense, you know, and like all it, all you're talking about is boundaries and expectations. Like you just have the, you know, certain boundaries, like we do this and that's the expectation and the limits confusion because, you know, like you said, Holly, if you don't at least talk about it, like if you don't, the thing is in relationships,

that's indicative of a bigger problem, right. You don't want to talk about it. But because here's the thing about like awkward conversations that you choose not to have in relationships, whether you talk about it with each other, you're talking about it with yourself. Or your friends. Yeah. Or your friends and you're in your head and then you're not discussing it

with the person you, the only person who can actually give you answers. And then you, you build up that tension, you build up that like resentment or anxiety. and then you show it in other ways, more passive aggressive ways. What's that term you've told me about the other day that's new, that new term that, what I kept calling passive aggressive. Oh, protest behavior. I like that term. Have you heard of that? Have you heard of protest behavior?

I haven't, but I like it. I heard of it in a conversation on attachment style, specifically like insecure attachment and how responses to like that insecure attachment being like kind of activated or triggered, so to speak, can result in like indirect responses, like protest behavior. For example, if you feel kind of like your partner was ignoring you and then they finally reach out like waiting a while to respond to their text or trying to pick a fight to elicit remote emotion from them to like feel like they care yeah that's rough to have to deal with yeah it just seemed like a really like colorful way of describing passive aggressive

behavior well i don't think it's about like giving it a free pass i think it's about contextualizing it as like relational because i think like protest behavior like is like okay it's reactive so it's not nobody's saying you're reacting well but it is at least acknowledge and acknowledging that it's a reaction to something protesting this and if you can i think get to the root of like what is activating this there's like probably a lot of insight and how to like navigate it and prevent it from both parties i think protest behavior is pretty common in relationships that's like because there's a balance between like you always i think when we're ever we're frustrated we want our like our partners to read our minds yeah that's always the wish and then be like i know and empathize with you because listen when we're feeling insecure in a relationship

you can like you don't want to have to say it like you don't want to be like spend more time with me or you don't make me feel seen or whatever it is like it to even say it feels embarrassing yeah you're just hoping it kind of happens just like so you just say you tweak your behavior tweak it and try to see them do it so then you didn't have to to say out loud the thing that makes you feel less than in a relationship. It's a challenge. Speaking of saying the thing. Communication issues.

Are we ready for office hours? All right. How's it going? Hey, what's going on? My name's Erin and I'm 23. How can we help, Erin? So this guy asked me out for drinks after kind of a long time coming and last minute rain checked on me. And now I'm just left wondering like what the heck

happened? What's last minute? Yeah. Yeah. And how to respond if he ever reaches out. So yeah, I'll break it down. So I'm a group fitness coach and trainer. And a couple months ago, I was moving cities. So I decided to shoot my shot with one of the guys that goes to my studio because I was leaving. I was like, normally don't mix business with pleasure. So I was like, this is my opportunity to do it. So I left a sticky note at the front desk for him that said verbatim, now that it's not unprofessional, let's grab drinks sometime.

And then I left my phone number. I love that. Yeah. So I got a text several days later from him basically saying, keep me posted when I'm coming back into town. So I was coming back into town a couple of weeks later and I got a response that in my opinion came across like he was kind of letting me down easy. Do we have this response? Push it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you want me to read it? Yeah, go ahead. I told him I was coming down for the weekend and I was just trying to keep up with all the

people that I left post-it notes for. And it's kind of just like a funny, like just to keep it light. And he said, I do have plans tomorrow and Saturday nights unfortunately so I kind of like felt like that was kind of letting me down easy so I just didn't push it any further and no like follow-up to like but we should try to some other time yeah nothing like we should try to meet up another time he asked me what time I was teaching classes um but that was something that was it it's something i didn't respond to that um but he ended up showing up to one of my classes that night um oh so he actually came to class um and so i saw him briefly talked to him after class and basically left it again like keep me

posted when you're coming to town so again ball was in my court i i feel like that's kind of a big i mean i know he's like taking these classes before right but like yeah now you you hit on him and then he asked and then he shows up for your class that's not nothing i yeah i guess it's not nothing i don't know how about you if you got hit on by a guy i would not go to his class. I wasn't interested. Yeah, right? I would definitely avoid. I would ghost.

Yeah. So it's not nothing. So then you planned a date. Yeah. So there was actually a month that went by with no communication. And I post on my stories when and where I teach classes. And I was coming back to town. I didn't tell him, but he like saw one of my stories and then reached out like after a month

of like not communicating at all. And he was like, hey, this is on Thursday. He said, hey, if you're in town tomorrow, let's grab drinks tomorrow night. So I was like, okay, I guess the interest is there. So I was like, yeah, for sure. Let's grab drinks. So we made loose plans to meet up on Friday to grab drinks. We both had separate dinner plans, but we were going to meet up afterwards. And Friday rolls around and I haven't heard from him like all

morning, all afternoon. I go to my dinner plans, still have not heard from him and so I come back from dinner around like 9 p.m. and I'm like okay I have to just like text him at this point so I was like hey like are we still on for drinks tonight and he's like oh like still wrapping up dinner you know I don't want you waiting around for me rain check maybe yeah he writes hey hey we're finishing up dinner soonish as well maybe we can rain check tonight question mark i don't want you to be waiting around for me as if he's doing you a favor exactly exactly yeah so i was like and that was it really quick yeah he responded really quick to when i texted him so it wasn't like he like didn't have his phone all day so that was the

last communication you've had with him that was it and all I did was like the message because I was like, I'm disappointed, frustrated, and annoyed. So I was like, I'm not going to be like all good. And was this this past Friday? Yeah. Yes, this is last Friday. Listen, he's not like my favorite, but like also. I don't think he sounds like a dick or anything.

I just think he sounds chaotic and like your schedules aren't lining up and he's not really going out of his way to make time. I just wouldn't sounds chaotic and like your schedules aren't lining up and he's not really going out of his way to make time. I just wouldn't get hung up on him, but I wouldn't like take it personal and be like, oh my God, what a dick either. Yeah. And I agree with Holly. I guess I think if you are still interested and your ego doesn't mind, like he's giving you definitely enough reasons to show you that like he's not excited about you, but also he doesn't know a lot about you. Right. And since you pursued him, like it's not that big of a deal that he's not excited about you yet. And so like a lot of people nowadays dating, they're just very noncommittal. Like I, I like, I'm not, I'm, I'm not this person.

Like when I make plans, like I'm, I plans. But unfortunately, there are a lot of people when they make loose plans, they're just kind of like penciling in a bunch of options and a bunch of maybes. And they just don't – this type of response he sent you, I have friends that do shit like this all the time. Yeah, and they're just kind of annoying. And you end up not making them a priority after a while. And not to be superficial, but you're like, you're way too pretty for this blah guy. Also, there is a text. I don't know if this adds context either way, but he did say that he's moving. So I don't know where he's moving, but is this kind of on a time? Time crunch? Yeah. Is this going to end at some point due to distance anyways?

time crunch? Yeah. Is this going to end at some point due to distance anyways? Yeah. Well, that's the kind of the thing. That's another aspect in it is that I just moved back actually. Okay. And he's moving like five hours away, like way away. But in mid-August. With the intention in seeing him be like, I want to have a fun day, maybe have a fun hookup, like just like casual situation? Or is it like, oh, I really like this person. I want to shoot my shot regardless of if it could be logistically complicated down the line. Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, obviously I don't know like anything about him that much. So like, I'm totally aware of that. And like, I'm really invested in kind of the plot of this because i'm not really one to like really shoot my shot all the time so i was like i really just

want to see this through like at least to the first date like i just kind of want to see what happens um from there like i don't really have big expectations or anything but well at least at least you know that answer because i think that's that's important because i i think i'm i am in agreement with holly like at the end of the day i think that like the pragmatic and logical thing to do is just let this die down like he didn't necessarily do anything wrong but like he was the one who kind of flaked on you and then he suggested a rain check yeah you gave him a thumbs up but like if he really wanted to this week he could reach out and be like how about that rain check?

You know what I'm saying? Like, you've made it clear you're interested in him. Now, if you recognize like, listen, I hit on this person. I want to see it through. I know that I'm awesome. And my ego wants to like, get them on a date. And I know that feeling.

Like, you know, it's just like, I get them on a date. They're going to fucking love me. And like, you want to like, I know that urge. And if you're willing to put more energy than you know, it's just like, I get them on a date, they're going to fucking love me. And like, you want to like, I know that urge. And if you're willing to put more energy than you need and, you know, at the risk of being humbled, like go for it. But just recognize that's what you're doing. You're doing this to like satisfy your ego. This really isn't about him. You know, he's moving anyways and like do you really

need that validation rather than yeah i mean that's what that's what a lot of my friends are saying they're like he's not worth your time at this point like i have done a lot of the pursuing on my end so it's like now it's just you know am I being desperate almost by like, he reaches out and like right on it. Like, do I just kind of like leave it like this? I don't think it's about you being desperate. I think it's about you letting your ego like dictate your choices and in a situation where you would otherwise normally know, like, I should, I, this guy's not worth my time.

Like, I don't think you're desperate. I think you're going to be fine either way. You know, like, I think, you know, they're going to be fine, but like, I, it sounds like you have this, I want to get in front of them and I want, like, I just want to, I want to sit across from them, have them become obsessed with me because I know he will. And, and then I won't care. I know he will. And then I won't care. No, I mean, honestly, I feel like that's not really what I'm going for. I genuinely, I don't know a lot about him, but as the interactions that I have had with him, he's kind of intriguing to me and I want to know more about him. More than that. What you know about him is he's kind of a flake you have to take into consideration these messages into what you know about him

yeah also what you know about him is he's leaving in two weeks well that's moving that's fine well you're gonna say holly oh i don't think there's any shame in like answering right away if he texts you like if you were clearing your schedule the second for like a last minute date that'd be different but i think we should normalize like answering a text when you see it oh yeah i think if he responds i think you answer for sure i think the big question is really do you make the sure why not there's no harm in it like it's up to you but if he follows up with like what are you doing which he easily might how about that rain check again like when two people who don't know much about each other like aren't excited like they end up reaching out to another when they're like bored or free or just have free time so like

you're not a priority for him he was hanging out with his friends he was having fun that night and then his friends were like let's go out and he's like and then you text them and like you just weren't a priority so he just flaked and and what he was hoping was the nicest possible way you rightfully got annoyed and now this like you the big question is do you make the next move and put yourself out there even though he flaked and say something like witty or creative or to try to like see if he's still interested i feel like it's a little beneath you and it's a big risk for your ego ego anyways uh but if he follows up with you like sure why not you have nothing to lose okay and just be and just be

honest about going and not don't play any like games or be like oh not free like be just straight up i think you can give him a little shit for being a flake yeah you know like are you gonna rain check on me again like something like that like are these like are these real plans are these like last friday plans like how like how committed to are you this Like, is a storm a brewing? Because your perception of that night is like you had actual plans, right? And he treated it like as an option. He treated it as like, hey, when 9 o'clock rolls out, let's check in and see you for free. That's how he treated it.

That's so annoying. So annoying. There was no communication before. And I was like, you were the one that asked me out. It wasn't the other way around. And I would have continued to hang out with my friends. Like, you know? Because I almost think that's worse than the cancellation is like the blasé-ness and the lack of acknowledgement. Just expecting you to wait around.

Yeah. And I'm being like, and I'm doing you a favor. So maybe leave on that. Yeah. If he reaches out, there's no harm in going on the date if you want to go. It doesn't make you desperate. But you at this point have been putting in the effort, showing your intention. And he's kind of treated it like an option. I think you texting next does read more desperate than you would than you are.

Wait for him and see. Yeah. And if he doesn't, boy, bye. Yeah. But like you can maybe. Yeah. you have the right to give him some shit okay yeah see if he rises to the challenge if he gets like offended then he's definitely not worth your time oh but i was like he needs that he needs to own up and you know he'll give you some like can line but okay i don't think there's a text for you to send right now. Okay. So just wait. All right.

All right. Thank you guys so much. Yeah. I appreciate y'all. All right. Take care. How's it going? Good. How are you guys?

Good. What's your name? My name is Ashley. I'm 22 years old. How can we help Ashley? So I'll give you a little bit of a backstory first. Pretty much like two to three weeks ago, I met this guy at a bar. He was really nice. He came up to me, started like making some funny

comments. He really hit it off. He asked to buy me a drink. And then we were talking, getting to know each other for about 20 to 30 minutes. And then there was a live band there. So then we were dancing together. I was there with some of my friends and he introduced himself to my friends and yeah, just kind of hanging out with me the whole night. By the end of the night, we ended up like making out a little bit and then really feeling it. I was kind of tipsy, drunk, and I knew that we were going to be leaving soon. So kind of spur of the moment, I'm like, hey, I'm going to be at this place on Sunday. You should meet me here because he said he lived in the area. He said, that's great. He asked for

my number, got my information, and then I left. And that was that. So he did text me the next day, kind of confirming the plans for Sunday, which was the next day. I'm like, that sounds great. Just so you know, this was kind of bad on my part. I forgot that me and my cousins had plans afterwards. So I'm like, hey, we can hang out until about 630. And then I have to go do these plans. And he said, okay, sounds good. Just so you know, I can't get there until like four, but I really want to hang out with you. So he did want to meet up. So I'm like, okay, kind of hindsight. I wish I would have picked a different day,

but I just agreed to it because. I actually love that you had a place to go afterwards. Yeah, right. So he ends up meeting me there. It's kind of this festival like area. I end up, we go for a walk. I kind of show him around the town. There's another live band there.

So we kind of just spend the rest of the time dancing. I had friends there. He was really wanting to meet my new friends and we were all just having a good time. And then the friends I was with, my cousins were saying, we should probably go get something to eat really fast before we go do these plans. I'm like, okay. So then he comes with, we go there. He pays for my food. And then my friends start panicking, being like, we're going to be late. I'm not getting anything anymore. And they're like rushing me out this door. So I'm just like, well, if I had known that I wouldn't have asked him to come with me because now this is just so chaotic. So long story short, he pays for me. I kind of have to rush out. He seemed really cool with it.

He was really nice. Um, but I just felt really bad. So I ended up texting him later that day and I said, Hey, really sorry about what happened. I'm sorry I had to leave you so soon. Would love to see you again. Are you doing something next weekend? He doesn't get back to me until the next day and says, Hey, I'm actually out of town next weekend. And then like gives me where he's going. Doesn't really suggest another time. So then I was bummed. So I kind of just started to try to get a conversation with him. He ends up leaving me on read after a couple messages.

So I was a little hurt, but I wanted to give it some time just to see if he messaged me later. He did mention he works really long hours, so I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. Meanwhile, I had just recently downloaded some dating apps, and I saw this guy from high school that I used to go to on there. I always thought he was really cute. Never really knew him very much, like his personality. I knew he played sports. Always just thought he was kind of attractive. So swiped right. We matched right away. Sent him a basic, hey, what's up message. He replies back. I say something and then nothing. So he doesn't answer me either. Week goes by. No messages from either of these guys. answer me either. Week goes by, no messages from either of these guys. I shoot my shot one more time with the guy from the bar, said, hey, what are you doing this day? Do you want to hang out?

He says he's going to be in the city all weekend visiting his friends, but I'll let you know what time I get back and maybe we could do something later. This was yesterday that he was supposed to get back to me. Don't hear anything. And then I saw the guy from Bumble from my high school on, um, he came up as like my suggested Instagram followers. Like you might know this person. So give him a follow. He accepts it within like 30 minutes and follows me back, but like no messages or anything. And this was all yesterday. So now I'm kind of stuck at this point where I'm still really interested in this guy from the bar, but I'm worried that he like was turned off by that mishap or something, or is just not as interested in me as he originally was. So I'm kind of wondering if I should give him one more shot.

Or if I should slide into this guy's DMs from Bumble. If I should do both. You can do both if you want to. I feel like, what do you think, Holly? I think Bar Guy, I think we should just table. Yeah, I think you're being really hard on yourself for not having the perfect plans with Bar Guy the first time. I'm looking at his texts and it just kind of seems like maybe something else happened with him. Like maybe he met somebody else.

I don't know. He just doesn't really seem to be suggesting like, oh, I can't hang out next weekend, but would love to do blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Also, like, you know, in your situation, like you're worried that there's like the chaos of the friends or whatever. Even if he was bothered by that that would be a red flag for him like you know what i'm saying what you're describing is not like all that big of a deal if he's triggered by that like this is not a person who like deals with disappointment all that well but to holly's point realistically it's probably not that you're probably just

overthinking it he probably had a nice. And just like everyone out there dating, they're on, you know, three different dating apps or swiping, right? They got 15 matches. Like you're just, you're part of the roster,

so to speak. And everyone's just trying to figure out who they should allocate their time to. I know it's a bit discouraging, but that's probably more realistic than thinking like you fucked up somehow. Yeah. So I know because it was like my bad and my friends i immediately went to blaming myself but there could have been a bunch of different reasons and yeah that's fair

just kind of i mean you put it out there that you want to get together right so i don't think there's anything more you need to do see if he yeah reaches out you know and if he reaches out it's going to be something will happen where like it's one of those things i mean the reality when it comes to like dating out now is like you know maybe maybe he matched with someone the next day that he got excited about right and then thought they were you know he gave him a little more time that could not work out and all of a sudden he texts you back and like maybe you guys are more compatible you don't really know so like i would just like i think once you put it out there that you're interested there's you don't need to remind him again yeah true but high school guy like let's shoot our shot

i know i'm a little nervous because i mean our high school is pretty big i feel like he kind of knows who i am i kind of know who he is but you know part of me is like do I really want to stay in the small town kind of pool or should I expand my horizons but I don't know I mean I don't think there's any harm in it like it's just one guy from high school yeah like you weren't like friends with them in high school were you no I never talked to him before I mean like have heard from, I don't know how this is for, for guys, but I've heard from my women friends who are like, we're on dating apps. And I had a couple of friends that said, if, if I don't, of course you guys matched, but they would say like, if I don't match with you on a dating app, dating app, don't, don't

DM me. I'm not like guys would be like oh i saw you on a like i saw you on raya or something and like oh it's like well we didn't match for a reason yeah so don't dm me but you guys matched and then he did accept your friend request so i don't think there's anything wrong with a some sort of like hello right like even just uh i don't know if i should just go to a basic hello so we can start a like a text relationship or if i just what's the lingo if i should just go immediately to amanda amanda amanda do you want to hit him with your uh dating app opener favorite which one oh oh i think a good good question to spark conversation is what's your least favorite state?

Because everyone has an answer and it one often provides an anecdote to kind of shows you what they're judgmental about or what they despise most. Because I think that's what you're looking for. You don't need to like say hi. You don't need to say like, oh, I saw you on Hinge. Maybe, you know. But I don't know if that stands necessarily for when we're jumping platforms when we're jumping to instagram do you think you need to explain it i think yeah i think it might be better to just say like hey saw you on hinge i feel like that

gives what if he doesn't like yeah because that's not that that i feel like gives away her power a little bit too much but if i got a random d from someone that said, what's your least favorite state? If that's on Instagram and not on. If it was on Hinge, sure. They follow each other now. Okay. Yeah. Listen, if this is based off the fact that they follow.

Something I like to do is when someone does he post stories a lot? Not that I've seen. Okay. Because I like to comment on someone's story and that's how. Yeah, I get that. Because then it's like you see something, you have a question about it,

you want to comment on it. Because then it's like. If he wanted to be more patient and he posts like a picture of him and his aunt and then you want to make it. I don't know. I don't think she needs to be that patient. What do you think, Holly?

Yeah, I don't think so. You know, patient. What do you think, Holly? Yeah, I don't think so. You know, and what did you send on the dating app? What did you write? He didn't respond at all? I just said, hey, what's up with a smiley face. Oh, he wrote, hey, how are you? He said, how are you? Yeah, he didn't even answer my question.

All right, well, just a note in the future. And like, I've made this mistake. It's not even a mistake. But like, hi, what's up? Hard to respond to. Fair. And that's why you got the, hey, how are you? And then you wrote, I'm doing well.

How are you? You kind of asked the same question twice. It's awkward, right? You're texting a fucking stranger. So when Amanda's like, that's why I think, listen, like you got to create conversations, like asking someone what their favorite state is. It's clearly like, if you don't recognize it as a conversation starter, then like, I'm already concerned. Yeah, me too.

Right? If he's like, oh, that's weird. Then he hasn't graduated from high school. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, so whether it's, what's your favorite state or not i think in the future next time you're dealing with someone on a dating app give them something to answer to like that's the thing with a conversation starter like but like how are you doing i don't know you're a fucking stranger i

don't know if i want to tell you how i'm doing. You know, it's a lot. It seems like a simple question, but like, I don't know how to respond to that. I'm fine. I'm good. And if I wasn't, I honestly wouldn't tell you. But like talking about something like your least favorite state is like, yeah, I'll tell you why I hate Florida.

You know, like whatever. Or like, you know what? This one time I, you know, not a fan of Delaware. I don't know. Is it too bold to just ask, hey, would you want to grab a drink sometime this week? I don't think it's too bold, but I think. I just think that'd be better than what's your least favorite state. Because we're not on the dating app anymore.

We are in new territory. We're starting fresh. Yeah. And it's been a while since that message i think the dating app message was like well go go to his go to his instagram okay oh my god are you gonna tell her to find a photo yeah well i mean because ally doesn't want it to be so random i hear that so find a photo and ask some stupid question about the photo, but make it funny. Make it recent.

Don't go too deep. Yeah. True. Trip to Belize in 2006. Yeah. I don't know. I think that's hit or miss. Sometimes like letting someone know that you've been, like you're curious about them is flattering.

True. His second picture is one of him and his dog. Do you have a dog? I do. Why don't you send that to him and be like, have you been to the such and such dog park? Send that post and see have you been to the blank dog park? And then he'll say yes or no and you'll say, shall we?

You can be like, what if we do a dog play date? I promise my dog won't leave early and make yours pay the bill. No conversations before. I don't know any dog parks. Quick Google will solve that dog parks near me is it an ambiguous breed like can you tell by looking at it it's a golden retriever would you be able to ask what breed is that such a cute dog um it's not super

clear what's your dog's least favorite state i think that's a great picture to like yeah you send that to him and ask some question about his dog what breed is this how old is he does your dog have a lot of other dogs those are just kind of like

it is a happy birthday post for the dog how recent was it March 15th but his only other more recent one is May 11th. So he's just not really a poster. We wait until September and say happy half birthday. Listen, let's not be too cryptic here. You're clearly shooting your shot.

You want him to know that. I think it's okay to let him know that you're flirting with him. Yeah. That's okay. You to let him know that you're flirting with him. Yeah. That's okay. You want him to know that. So I think some sort of joke about it. It doesn't have to be that funny. What if you were like, hey, I think it could be kind of fun to grab a drink sometime,

but I need to know one thing. What's your least favorite state? Yeah, I like that. Oh, that's not. Or that format. It doesn't even need to be like she's shooting her shot i understand that but just do the beginning why do we have to talk about the least favorite state because it's a conversation starter i think we should grab a

drink what night what do you think i i'm down for either or like i think you should just ask him out i think it's not i think we should grab a drink. Are you free this week? Maybe then on the date you can ask about the least favorite state. No, you want something coming in. A banter. Okay. Okay. If you want some banter, you could do marry, fuck, kill, and then three teachers from your high school.

Okay. Sure. Oh. I like that. You like that? Yeah. That makes more sense to me. I'd be like,

I would love to grab a drink. Like, I think, I'd be like, I think it could be really fun to grab a drink, but first I have to know. Merry fuck kill.

Well, let me ask you this. You, like, here's, I think there's a difference here. Like, Amanda and I,

maybe we might be more interested in like random fucking questions that like don't require a response, but like I'll talk, I'll give you a 10 minute like opinion about like North Dakota.ota sure other people are just like i don't know who gives a shit like yeah they're like what's that more in line with with you like would would you find that question to be like inviting would you take the bait and if it's if it's something you would do

then i think you should ask the question because then he doesn't like it, then that speaks to the lack of a compatibility maybe. Like what's more true to who you are and do that? I definitely – I don't think I'd be turned off by it. I feel like I would answer as I would and then see how it goes from there. So it could go either way. I don't really know. I would totally ask that question on a date. My only point was it just feels like it's kind of out of that field.

I like asking them out and say, but before we go, I need to know this. And throw out whatever conversation starter you think is in line with like something you would ask. And don't take it, don't overthink it. It doesn't matter. The whole question is, is he willing to have a conversation with you about something? Because when you go on this date, that's what that first date is going to be about. You guys talking about stuff. Or another question I like that I think is a good opener. I don't know if you know this, but like, like already know this about him.

But what is what Halloween costume of yours are you most proud of? What was your high school superlative? Did you guys do those? We did senior quotes. Yeah. Why don are you most proud of? What was your high school superlative? Did you guys do those? We did senior quotes. Yeah. Why don't you say that then? But before I have to know what's your senior quotes. What if you just send him.

It's something they have in common. He had something about like Halloween fall season on his dating profile. That's good. So that might be a good relationship to that. And do you have an answer also? Like do you have an answer? Do you have a fun Halloween costume that you whipped out one time yes okay beautiful beautiful just want to prepare love that so maybe i need to know what what's your proudest halloween costume yeah halloween costume

you're most proud of i think it could be fun to grab a drink sometime but first i need to know what halloween costume are you most proud of and then if he's like why do you need to know i'll be like i'm just very judgmental when it comes to people's creativity. Put them on the spot. Yeah. Yeah. So I have high exclamation point. I think it would be fun to grab a drink sometime, but first I need to know what Halloween costume you're most proud of? Question mark. Sure. Yeah. Ready? I like it. Sure. Yeah. Ready?

I like it. Three. I'm so nervous. Okay. Three, two, one. Fire in the hole. Oh, I sensed it. Yay!

You can always not respond and you'll be totally fine. Like neither of these guys are. Just keep shooting, shooter. Yeah. Keep shooting, shooter. Got it. Good job. And this other guy, whatevs. Let him reach out to you. balls in his court you did nothing

wrong yeah yeah i wouldn't be shocked if you hear from him at some point there but i wouldn't wait around and you definitely did you definitely didn't do anything wrong thank you yeah and next time don't apologize for things you didn't do wrong you gave him the heads up you told him i have i have to go like you gave him like heads up. You told him, I have to go. You gave him, like, things kind of went according to plan. You just were enjoying yourself and you felt bad because you wanted to keep hanging out with him and so you apologized.

Yeah. Because he also, like, I also told him he could have suggested a different time as well if he couldn't make it until later, so. So that would be my own note. Just don't apologize for something you didn't do fair enough all right yeah good luck let us know what happens good luck thank you yes for sure all right have a good day bye bye holly this has been so much fun thanks for having me thanks so much for coming can you please let my audience know all the great things you're doing on what's tiktok instagram obviously promote your podcast coming out as well. If there's anything else.

Yeah, I have a new podcast. It's called Girls Next Level. It should be up within the next few weeks, but you can probably go subscribe. I think the subscribe button's up if you want to get the notification. And I'm just on TikTok, Holly Jean Madison, Instagram, Holly Madison. Awesome. That sounds like it's going to be a really interesting podcast. Is this going to be just the two of you are going to bring on guests? Yeah, we'll bring on guests, people who've been on the show every once in a while. Awesome. Yeah, we're excited. I can't wait to check that out.

It sounds like it's going to be great. Thank you. Thank you guys for listening. Don't forget to send in those questions at asknick at castmedia.com cast with a K for all things Vile Files. Next week, Atshina Gutu is recapping. She's feeling better.

We had to reschedule. Recapping, big Bachelor fan will be with us recapping the episode five of The Bachelorette. And then on Going Deeper, Rachel Bilson returns to The Vile Files. And we look forward

to having her on. So until then, have a great week.