The Viall Files - E461 Bachelorette Recap w/ Achieng Agutu & Hayley Hasselhoff

Episode Date: August 16, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelorette Recap Edition! Today we are back with another episode, joined this time by two wonderful guests! We bring on digital creator, Achieng Agutu, and actress and model, Hayley Hasselhoff, to break down the latest episode of the Bachelorette where all the drama unfolds leading up to hometowns. But first, we spill the tea on the latest from Bachelor Nation, reacting to Kelley Flanagan and Peter Weber being sighted hanging out on multiple occasions since their breakup that led to a lot of harsh words in interviews, Madi Prewett’s recent sponsored live video where she breaks down the engagement and promise pact, and Kaitlyn Bristowe’s recent comments about wishing she was host on this season with two Bachelorettes. We then dive into the episode where we talk about Nate’s emotional goodbye, the real reason Gabby sent him home, and how Nate is probably setup to be the next Bachelor. We also dive into Zach dropping the L-Bomb, how Zach is getting Rachel ready to date Tino, Rachel’s wacky cheese strongman competition, and Gabby’s erotic group date where Spencer left uncomfortable and Johnny left dripping with hot wax. We also breakdown Tino’s emotional breakdown, Logan’s unceremonious exit from the season, and debating if the producers accidentally showed their hand. “Their whole relationship is built off of his obsession.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: BetterHelp: Our listeners get 10% off their first month at http://www.BetterHelp.com/VIALLFILES. ShipStation: It’s time to let go of all those shipping tasks. ShipStation can do it better—and faster. Sign up using promo code VIALL for a FREE 60-day trial today at http://www.shipstation.com and start saving time with every shipment. That’s 2 whole months of shipping made quick and painless. And it’s free to try! Grammarly: Get to the point faster and accomplish more with Grammarly. Go to http://www.grammarly.com/VIALL to sign up for a free account! And when you’re ready to upgrade to Grammarly Premium, get 20% off for being my listener. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @noordinarynoire @hhasselhoff See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to a new and exciting episode of the vile files i'm your host nick joined by ali and amanda and we have a star-studded episode lineup today. A Chinga Gutu is with us. Me, the queen, the one and only baby. She was able to make it. I was. And Haley Hasselhoff, we're coming with you, double teaming it today. Hello.

How are you guys? How are you both doing? We're good. I'm having a pretty delicious start to my week, so. A delicious start. Delicious. And Haley, is yours also delicious? I would say that my life's always delicious.

I want to steal delicious. How are you doing? Desirably delicious. I'm doing desirably delicious. Now that we have you ladies here, before we get into the bachelor's tea of it all, how are you ladies just high level enjoying the season so far?

Before we get into this episode what are your just overall thoughts on on what we've been seeing how are you enjoying it thoughts criticisms compliments all of the above yeah i'm really loving this season i think definitely having two bachelorettes is something new and fun it's just interesting to see how they both interact with each other and then the men that they're with. Something that I've just been feeling is like there's been a lot of comparison between the two women, which is fine. Gabby and Rachel have their own experiences. But I think I'm excited to just see how things go. I'm really interested to see how Gabby's journey continues, especially now that a few things have happened

based off this past episode. So I'm feeling good. Okay. Yeah. Xing is feeling overall good. After this episode, I definitely don't want two leads ever again. No, I just don't think it works.

I think that they wanted to switch things up, but I think it's really, really difficult. And the comparison from the beginning, it's like you spent the whole entire time not even looking at the men. You were just looking at the women and them comparing each other and trying to figure out where their hearts were with themselves. Yeah, we know more about how

Rachel and Gabby are different from one another and how they find love, and we know almost nothing about any of these men. Or their relationships. How? How is it going to hometown so quick? Yeah, no, we were halfway through this episode where they're obsessively talking about hometowns as they always do.

And I'm just like, who is Tyler again? You know, it's just like, and Tyler's just like, I know I can spend the rest of my life with her. You know, I'm like, who are you? But I feel like Rachel's feeling the same way though. That little rendezvous with Jesse where they're having a bit of a conversation. I feel like they're both a little bit like, oh, this is great.

Well, they were fighting over Rachel via cheese. I feel like Rachel likes when the men compete for her. I think she really likes that a lot. A lot. A lot. And I think it's about her validation. I feel like she needs validation from these men. Oh, yeah.

And something that I was also thinking is that I feel like she needs validation from these men. Oh, yeah. And something that I was also thinking is that I feel like Rachel is trying to be the best bachelorette and she's not trying to find love. Hot take. I think that's a fair criticism. I can't with you. Hot take.

Hot take. No, I really feel like that because, you know, the whole time she's like... Probably like around the room. We all agree it's hot. Because the whole time she's like we're like around the room we all we all agree it's hot because the whole time she's like i don't know if i can be the best bachelor baby girl you're here to find love right let's talk about that let's have those experiences she's either comparing herself to gabby or trying to have these men like none of you guys were looking at me today i also think that's the show like the interview questions that are being asked to her

are probably prompting her in a bit of a way as well. 100%. Yeah, there's a lot of editing that's making it kind of come across that she's feeling this way that I think people don't recognize that happens with these types of shows. I think the show in general, to your point, Hayley, is always going to emphasize, like they like it when the people on the show

make a big deal about whatever it is. That's not stopping Rachel from still choosing to prioritize the relationships that are working and not focus on the validation she's not getting. So it's not, as I always say, like, yes, cast are often set up to fail, but how they respond to failure is kind of how we end up critiquing you know i also i also think that it's like i think with rachel what you're seeing with

having the two women there is that they're really tapping into inner child and other issues that maybe are coming up now for sure because the comparison is so in front of their faces like yes you can get rejected on a dating app or rejected in real life, and then you can kind of go live your wonderful life. This is their only life right now. So I think when they go back into it, it really brings up triggers for them that are starting to kind of go, oh, wow, this is something maybe I needed to identify later on when I got into the relationship, but I'm having to really identify it now with everyone watching. I guess the big question for Rachel then is,

will she use this experience to identify, you know, some of those maybe past traumas or whatever it is. Will she use this, what is a very intense and in its own right traumatic experience to go back and reflect? A lot of people who go to this experience don't reflect very much on, on their time and some,

some do. So that's just the big question. But this environment that they all choose to be a part of, they have a pretty good idea. And so, yes, it's how they're not always set up for success, but how they handle the disappointment, I think, plays a huge role. Before we – well, we're already getting in the meat of the episode. As you can tell, we're excited to talk about it. Let's get into whatever tea we have, Allie. Bachelor Nation tea to the breakdown before we further get into this. Now I'm excited to talk about it.

Well, let's just dive right in, shall we, folks? People are talking a lot about Kelly and Peter. Kelly Flanagan, Peter Weber. Obviously, they were together. They broke up. They both did a little podcast tour, said some comments about how things ended, why things didn't work out. But they've now been spotted together twice in the last couple weeks. I was shocked. Yeah. She talked some shit about him. She did.

She very much did. As far as bachelor breakups go, she might have talked the most shit about an ex. Well, and then he kind of responded back to that. He wasn't a fan of that. But yeah, I never thought that we would see kind of, like, responded back to that. He wasn't a fan of that. But, yeah. I never thought that we would see them, like, cordially together, not once but twice. She kind of went on a bit of a let's shit on Peter tour. Yeah.

And he definitely responded, which he didn't have to do. But. Yeah. But. I'm glad they seem to be amending fences. Yeah. They've been seen at the airport talking. Two weeks later, they were both at the Chicago Cubs game. You know, they're both were there kind of maybe for like a management pr thing and they just happen to be with the

same management company no there was no pda there was no hand holding whatever but they were definitely cordial and talking for all we know they just happen to be put in the same room and the same flight and the same flight because they were seen at the airport together and then two weeks later they were seen at the cubs game two weeks later okay that's not right right wait i just maybe like being friends with your ex but then if she also talked shit like for a while i mean who knows maybe they're over it maybe they've mended some fences but when they ended it some couples it was she just like a post she no it was more than a she went on a few podcasts the one she talked about the breakup and she was saying like she basically was like get up

she strongly implied and maybe she even said that he was unfaithful and that he was a bit of a fuck boy was my understanding maybe there was some healing you know healing happens yeah for sure healing happens so maybe there was some healing out Healing at a Cubs game. Healing at the Cubs game. I remember talking with Peter briefly about it when I ran into him once, and he didn't get into the details, but he definitely had a, you know, two sides to every story. Like, what am I supposed to say? I think often in Bachelor World, some of the men exiting relationships feel like it's a no-win situation for them.

exiting relationships feel like it's a no-win situation for them. So they tend to just take their beatings and hope that the beating doesn't last that long. But Peter got a beating. I'm glad that there seemed to be... Yeah. They took a photo with a fan at the Cubs game. So how do we look at that? Let's say they're like at least now they're friendly. Maybe they're not getting back together. But like do we does it make us revisit the harshness of the criticism that Peter received? Or could it still be fair criticism? I think it could still be fair. But is it fair criticism? I don't know. If you don't really know the situation.

We don't really know. You know what I mean? Like is it ever fair criticism when you really do not know? Because there's so many different sides. Until Peter comes out and actually says this is what's up. guess i guess it would be fair like they know is the point yeah so like if you're peter and if it was i guess i did some shit i'd prefer not to say anything but like or was kelly you know a harsh with her criticism and ultimately just mad that they broke up and was trying to win the PR game as often couples do when they end it. So either way, I did not see this coming.

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That's 20% off at G-R-A-M-M-A-R-L-Y.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Speaking of other couples, you know, Maddie Pruitt got engaged to a lovely man named Grant, who people just really know because his father is a billionaire. But the two of them did an Amazon Live video that is kind of stirring up some comments. I have so much to say about this. This was a paid gig. Oh, well, take it away. What's her man's name again?

Grant. You came with receipts. Grant who? Grant Trout. No? Grant Trout? Grant. You came with receipts. Grant who? Grant Trout. No? Grant Trout? Yes, I think I believe Trout. That's fun.

Did y'all see when he posted the like, we got engaged situation? I think he changed it. But he was like, so I did a little something. The way he said it, I was like, why is she marrying this child? Whose baby is this? it, I was like, why is she marrying this child? Whose baby is this? Literally, he was like, so I did something is the caption that like you post when you're 19 and you dye your hair for the first time, you know, and it's fun and it's exciting and it's appropriate for that occasion.

Literally, he was like, yeah, so I have something to tell you. Like, that's how I was reading it. But it was like, I've been hiding something. My shawty. That's how I was reading it. Because it was like, I've been hiding something. My shawty. That's how it was. And then he put at the end of the caption, as Drake said, and put a Drake lyric. If my man ever does that. I was just like, what the heck?

And I felt like the live that they did was kind of, it felt like high school. Like, they were like, oh, we went went on a um like the way they fell in love was they were driving and he she was like are you gonna play some drake and he was like yo i'm in love with you i love you like it just felt very childish but in addition to that they then like pulled over and prayed for drake yes they're very religious part of the story so so background on them they're both very outspoken about their religious beliefs. They are part of, is it purity culture? Is that what we call it?

Where they, you know, sign some sort of contract with mom and dad and God and say that they're not, like, I think literally. Literally, no, they said that. Because he was like, they've been together, like, not that long. Nine months. Nine months. And so literally in the live they were like you know we're saving ourselves to marriage which that's fine but then they were like yo because of that like we were like let's wrap this up let's get married

is that what's happening yes i mean you know it's not for everyone but it's it is for them yeah i mean they have a very um youthful approach on love but i think that think that's kind of how I think it is for that community. Maddie revealed that Grant won her over because of his quote, swag, when he picked her up in his car and played a song by Drake. And one of the comments on the live said,

swag is slang for my dad's a billionaire. I mean. No. I'll say this about Maddie Pruitt. She's not for everyone. I'm not for everyone. You know, she has a very specific taste or she's very outspoken with her beliefs.

I will say this about Maddie. She's a, she's only getting started. She's a, she's not going anywhere anytime soon. I think she's going to be ultra successful in whatever she wants to do. As will Drake. Whether you subscribe to the Maddie Pruitt channel or don't,

I think she's on the path she wants to be. I agree with you. And it's going to go very well for her. I see what she's saying. There's a space for everyone, and I think that's a space no one's tapped into too. A lot of people have. But either way, I think she's saying. There's a space for everyone, and I think that's a space no one's tapped into, too. A lot of people have, but either way, I think she's going to be successful.

Are you talking about her marrying a billionaire son? I mean, that helps. Do you think this will last? Do you think this is like something? Yeah, I do. I think they're very... I don't see Maddie Pruitt ever getting divorced. I think they prioritize relationships and love

differently than some other people. And this is a very more conservative, traditional approach to love and relationships. I see them dealing with whatever stresses come there in relationship differently than others. They'll prey on it. Yeah. They'll prey on it. Not for everyone, but it is for them. There we go.

So Caitlin Bristow has been pretty vocal about her feelings about not being asked to host this season. She came on this show and was saying she kind of felt like she deserved to, having been the only other Bachelorette that had a second Bachelorette, even if it was just for a night. She wanted to be there for the women. And she had said something along the lines of with Rachel of it all, and Rachel having these kind of meltdowns or crying. She had said that if she lines of with rachel of it all and rachel having these kind of like meltdowns or crying she had said that if she was hosting she would do things differently

and she had said quote i would have tried to adjust rachel's crown and remind her she's a goddess people kind of like ran with that and then she ended up commenting back that was like a comment on social media i'm guessing yeah i think she tweets a lot during episodes. Yeah. But yeah. And so then she ended up commenting back on Instagram because I think some people were kind of going nuts and commenting about

that quote specifically. And she said, some of y'all are nasty. I am here to say I like Jesse as the host. He's incredible. I have an opinion on every season.

I'm not inserting myself. I'm being asked by media and things are being picked up because I had two bachelorettes on my season I love Gabby and Rachel and Jessie everyone is killing it and I will continue to use

my own platforms to have my own opinion thanks for those who have kind words I truly hope everyone has a great day so clearly people thought that her saying

she wanted to do it or she would have done things differently was very like anti-Jessie which I don't think was the intention but I think she still probably maintains she thinks that a female

season, a Bachelorette season should have had a female host. My guess is she probably still thinks that. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad that Caitlin, that she's just advocating for this show. She's reminding people that she is sharing her opinion.

Bachelor Nation, they're passionate. They are. It's, I think often people in this world, people like myself or alumni, as you go on and get this opportunity, we sometimes forget it's, I was having this conversation with a friend this weekend. It's, I don't know how you guys like to view

being in the public light or how you guys keep yourselves grounded or humble yourselves, all those things. But we all have different tips and tricks. But for me, it's your critics who really keep you around. You know, they drive the passion. They drive the intensity of the conversations. And while annoying sometimes and frustrating, they kind of keep the lights on, so to speak.

Because, you know, your fans will respond to your critics, especially in Bachelor World. It's like we all enter this kind of bubble and we get all this access and attention and a lot of privilege is afforded to us through just going on a silly show and getting a platform and getting these opportunities. And then we get mad when we say things, but it, and because people don't like that we say it and they respond with passion. But like, if it weren't for that passion, we wouldn't be hosting, we wouldn't have six people or five people in a room talking about a show and breaking it down. And it's that passion that, that makes this, this thing going. And I just remind myself of that when I sometimes get feedback that is critical of, of the opinions that we share.

Because without the passion, what would you have? I don't know. Ain't it true. Well, speaking of commenting on the Rachel of it all, Ivan has had some comments as well. It feels like everyone's really weighing in on the Rachel of it all this season. Wasn't this on a podcast? Yeah, it was on his podcast. He's trying to make his own thing. Yeah. But he was saying his opinions on Rachel,

what he would have done if he was on this season. And he said, Rachel is a roller coaster, ups and downs, ups and downs, ups and downs. These guys, they have to be like when Jesse comes up to them and is like, hey, the group date is canceled because some stuff happened and Rachel wants to cancel. In my mind, I'm like, all right, this is one, two, three, four too many times on me. I would have pulled a Logan and switched the teams when she pulled that. Okay. Well, my God, some very strong thoughts of Ivan. As you see, the passion critic. Yeah. Do you ladies have any response to Ivan? He's an engineer. He's a kind of different type of consent. He's like cerebral and has more introverted characteristics. He was on Paradise.

He's very strong with his opinion. He's very confident in himself. He'll say things like this. I didn't think that on Tayshia's season, though. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, we saw more on Paradise. On Paradise, he was kind of crazy. Do we have any thoughts on his comments?

If you're out here to find love, you have to buckle up for all those experiences, the highs, the lows. Like if she wasn't feeling like I can't be here because of something that's happening in her life or whatever during that day, then, yeah, you're here to find love. You're here for Rachel. Like, so I think that comment, like where you'll just pull the plug and just go elsewhere, like finding something else, that kind of felt a little sleazy to me. And I feel like, yeah, Logan did that. And then, you know, I feel like karma got him. That's how I feel.

But, um... COVID karma got him. COVID karma got him. But I feel like, yeah, if you're on this show to not find love, like, it just... Didn't he refer to her as red flags? Who? Ivan.

Rachel. Rachel. No. Red flags form like her not going to dates. I think he, well, this basically,

you know, the ups and downs that he was quoted by saying. Yeah, he did call her a red flag. He called her a red flag. Or no,

no, he calls her ups and downs a red flag. Red flags, okay. Oh my lord, you do not put ups and downs

in the description of a woman. You didn't like that? You do not put ups and downs in the description of a woman. You didn't like that? You do not put ups and downs in the description of a woman. I didn't like that. You just don't do it. Okay.

I think it's very, I mean, at the end of the day, he's there to stir, right? So that's what he's wanting to do. He's wanting to basically put his opinion out there and get other people's opinions back.

Yeah, I mean, he's hosting a podcast. We don't do it every episode, but the... What are your thoughts on this? The goals of this, like this show, we remind our audience regularly that we haven't met these people we're about to talk to. I haven't met them. You haven't met them. We are critiquing a behavior on an edited television show.

Again, that passion I spoke of, it's just like that's kind of part of the game. I have a couple thoughts. One, as far as the red flag comment, it's just like that's kind of part of the game I have a couple thoughts one as far as the red flag comment I it's definitely harsh but I do know that almost every episode we've the season we have no problem talking about using the word red flags when we talk about the men's behavior is that just a one-sided word we're not like I'm just wondering no definitely not I think there's a lot of stuff inside obviously this episode as well that you kind of look at the identification of like if it was a bachelor in the situation like in gabby's group date and things of that manner you know i think that you can use red flags for either or yeah i just want to make sure that that's still

okay but as far as like you know this episode like i don't know how i've i'm guessing if i were to sit down with ivan and be like hey so what do you think and i i saw other quotes from the interview and he said things like how he likes rachel and he complimented rachel like this is obviously pulling out of like a bunch of things he said but like we preface this by saying like we don't know these people right we're commenting on the behaviors we see in an episode like last week we said things about gabby and rachel and logan and some of those behaviors carry forward and it's a new week so now we see different sides of them and we watch these episodes everything is siloed into like people are being told well usually like gabby's a certain way or rachel another way like we don't

know enough about either of these women i haven't met them to say like these behaviors that we're seeing from rachel we don't know if that's Rachel. Amen. We can comment and say that the behaviors that Rachel is showing, well, those are red flag behaviors. I think it's beautiful that you're having this conversation about this right now on your podcast. I just want to put that out there. Wonderful. Great. I love that you love it. So yeah, I think we always try to remind our audience of that. Our audience, even though we're saying saying that now i promise you when we later on some feedback we'll be like well that was a kind of a red flag and i'm like fuck you rachel's a queen you know like it'll be but yeah we don't know like these people men and women logan uh tino wait on this episode they react to things

and and we comment on them And so I don't really have a problem with what Ivan said as long as, and I'm guessing he would be, would acknowledge that, is that he's not saying this is who Rachel is. He doesn't know much about Rachel. But last week, did she showcase behaviors that if that were how she handled disappointment in all situations, then I would, yeah, like we've all had friends, right? Who are just like, how's Becky going to handle the news? You know, like, let's make, make sure Carl's okay with this disappointment. Like we all have friends where that, that one friend in the group that no matter what happens, it doesn't go their way. You know, we have to like stop what we're doing and make sure they're okay. And we can't say if that's Rachel yet. And the show is all about taking these moments

and making you wonder if that's who they are. Because we get siloed into these one characters often. Well, it also feels like Rachel is a very external processor and very much talks through and shows emotion about how she's feeling. And so I think it's also hard because like we're getting her like it feels like some of maybe her most insecure thoughts or like at her lows. Like she's actually vocalizing them versus like for the rest of us. Like I know I think terrible shit about myself, but I don't usually say it out loud. So I think that's part of the, you know, in terms of when you handle emotion that way and you're very like verbal then we also know they can fall under fire hailey's point like for all we know you know let's say you

know rachel was bummed about something and then she said an itm and then she was like you know you win some you lose some yeah and then and then they were like yeah a producer could have been like really oh well that would have crushed me. You know? Now the question is, does Rachel take the bait or does she stand in her power and say, no, well, good for you. That's not how I would handle it. Or does she respond to that moment? Like these are all-

It's hard. I've been on, you know, like I've had my fair share of those types of shows and I can tell you, sometimes it can be hard. It can be hard it can be very hard sometimes you're like oh i'm gonna take the bigs i want to have the conversation but then you're like oh no it's gonna be chopped up you're like and then you walk away going like i gave him a lot of content i gave him a lot i just told my entire life story you know so you never know

when it comes to that stuff how i look at at this experience, and this is like, because I empathize with that side, that the show is not always there for you. There's 30 other people. If you go in with kind of main character syndrome, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. But I also look at it, it's just like, as I sometimes tell my peers, I think it's arrogant to go on this show specifically and be willing to take all the rewards and the followers and the attention and the access that comes with it and the potential like easy earnings and opportunities and refuse to accept that someone every once in a while people on podcasts or whatever are going to critique your behavior.

And some of some of the people in Bachelor Nation do have that kind of like, I can't believe you said anything it's just like i mean come on you know you're gonna be fine but i think that's in any industry no matter what like you're always gonna have people that are gonna stay stuff and like that's a small piece of like the big sliver that we get to do our jobs every day yeah you know it's just how to your point yeah it's just so how do people handle the criticism some people in bachelor nation are better than others some people they will get fixated on their criticism. It'll become, it'll define them. Do you feel like it's ever defined you? I'm sure I've had moments, but I've worked really hard on it not. I mean, I don't look for things. I avoid things. I try to have conversations with myself. How do I internalize criticism? I mean,

I'm a human being. So like, yeah, everyone has their moments, but I try to see the pros and the cons. I try to look at the benefits as much as I do the negatives, especially if I'm feeling things are unfair or I don't like this situation. I try to remind myself of, yeah, but would you also have X, Y, and Z? I don't think anything's free in this world. So whether it's a good thing or a bad thing happening, I try to look at either what I've gained or what it's costed me. And usually that helps me level up my perspective. We need to be making sure we're keeping our minds right just as much as we are keeping our bodies right. And that's where BetterHelp comes in. BetterHelp is making it easier than ever before to connect with a licensed therapist to help you navigate through all those common

mental health struggles that so many of us have, whether it's money problems, stress in our relationships, stress at work, maybe it's just like mental fatigue, whatever the reason is, talking with a therapist has really helped me, has helped so many of us. And if you're someone who's thought about it and just haven't taken that leap, I urge you to give BetterHelp a chance. Best part is you can do it right from your phone, your tablet, your computer. It's super convenient. You can literally be talking to a therapist in less than 48 hours. They'll match you with a therapist that they think is right for you. And if you don't like it, if you want to switch therapists, you can keep switching every time until you find a match that you connect with, because it really is about

finding the right therapist that you can feel comfortable to open up with and share and get feedback that you find to be helpful. BetterHelp is online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat only therapy sessions. So you don't have to see anyone in camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy. You can be matched with their therapist, like I said, in under 48 hours. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash V-I-A-L-L-F-I-L-E-S. That's better, H-E-L-P, dot com slash vile files. All right, let's get into it. All right. Well, the episode starts with, I guess, the native it all, right? It it's so sad i cried my eyes out it was a bummer i mean i hate to say i was right here i really right okay i really like me i really like me and i really

like me i feel like their connection felt like good really good i feel like it felt really good for gabby she felt loved in a way that I don't think she has. And I think she's articulated that. And I feel like Nate also like really touched into her needs and her wants. And I just really love that. And I think when she was saying bye, it felt like she was doing it because she has also articulated her experience with her mom and how she's still healing in that place and how she's not ready to like be a mother to somebody else when she's dealing with her own mommy issues. I feel like you've mentioned this, but like I think that was really real for her.

I think it was really real. And I think she had to make a really hard decision to be like, I really like you and I feel like I'm getting feelings for you and I feel like I could love you. But I can't do that because I'm going to have to stretch myself if I'm going to be with you in this relationship. When you say real, do you mean like she felt real sadness or do you feel like when you say real, you're talking about the chemistry between her and Nate? I think both. I think I felt really good chemistry between both of them. And she articulated that.

Oh, am I dreaming? I feel like she said like how she really felt. it and i feel i feel like it was real sadness and i i'm gonna say i feel like the guys that she has right now don't have the same connection and the chemistry that she has with nate had i think that's a fair thing to say i i think that is a product of two bachelorettes i think this this episode with them hammering hometowns hometowns hometowns hometowns and they like they always try to raise the stakes and they do that every season but this is the first season where we've had two separate groups of men we had 10 guys to start this episode so any other season you're like oh we still have 10

guys there's a lot to get through There's a lot to get to know. But we keep hearing about hometowns and we're just like, who the fuck are these guys? I really like Nate. Everyone's had one one-on-one. Nate more than,

like Nate's had some of the most screen time. So we've even had the opportunity not only to get to know Nate, but get to know Gabby and Nate. So I kind of honestly see it as, it kind of seemed like

a bit of a Bachelor edit for Nate. I think they might be setting him up for a potential Bachelor. Just the way they kind of shot it and the emphasis they put on it. He was a guy who went home the week before Hometowns and usually that doesn't get a big goodbye. Yeah, they get a hoorah for sure.

And so they really have invested.'d watch it but think about they invested a lot of screen time they knew how gabby and nate were gonna you know when the season started airing they knew how it ended right we didn't know they knew and so knowing how it ended they still invested a lot of screen time into that relationship knowing that he didn't even make it screen time into that relationship, knowing that he didn't even make it to hometowns. And so that screen time we got to see between her and Nate was screen time. We haven't been able to see between her and Jason,

her and Johnny. I mean, Johnny, it's just like, hello, Johnny. Yeah. Welcome to the show. I said,

where was he? Yeah, exactly. They pulled him out. I was like, they pulled him out for the sex fetish. Like, he was like, Johnny, just come out now.

We'll drop some candle wax on you. No, this was that whipping thing was his shit. Yeah. That date, he was like, thank you. This is my shiny shine. He was ready. Spencer fucking hated it. He was so uncomfortable.

Oh, yeah. I wanted him to be more. I know. I wanted a little more sexiness for Spencer. I thought it was Jason who hated it he was uncomfortable oh yeah i wanted him to be dignified for that i know i wanted a little more sexiness for jason you hated it well jason's always been kind of like low key on the back yeah so like it was hard but like spencer was like a clear like you are uncomfortable sir uh as far as back to to nate and gabby i never really i like i said i think there was more of a mutual respect rather than a mutual connection between the two. Even like, think about it. Like, I think Gabby's concerns are valid, obviously, of sending him home. She doesn't want to be a mom yet. She talked

about not having healed properly. Totally. Like, I can empathize with that. That makes a ton of sense. You know what I'm saying? There was no moment where, even if it was like the most logical choice and it made the most sense and the most pragmatic, there was no like moment of like Gabby or Nate kind of fighting for the relationship. You know, there was no like, hey, listen, like there was no Nate saying, and again, maybe this was the best, healthiest choice. But even during heartbreak when we're sad, sometimes we're not always, you know, thinking healthy and positive. And there was no Nate being like, I'm not asking you to be a mom right now. He or she, my kid has a mom. I just want you to be my girlfriend. That's kind of how I felt, though. I was like, there's just such this love. You guys are like cuddling and crying and loving each other.

But nobody's bringing up the elephant in the room. And the elephant in the room is like, we all come with different challenges and things in our lives. Why are we cutting off this beautiful love right now before we even take that next step because i don't know if the beautiful love real was all that real okay now when you say that that actually makes sense when night one happened and all the guys got out of limo like not always but typically the lead is like there's that one person that triggers them that sparks them that, that makes you go, oh, my God. And Nate wasn't it for Gabby. I think it was someone else.

What if Tino left, whether it's through COVID? I'm just saying Rachel would have fought. It might not have been healthy to fight maybe, but she would have fought. You know what I'm saying? She would have. And I would have fought. You know, like if you were down this love journey and this far long, the leads are starting to wonder.

But I feel like it's different, though. It's like they're here to be engaged. They're here not to stay boyfriend and girlfriend. That's going to change in a matter of weeks. He couldn't say, hey, listen, let's just be real here. We've only known each other for a few weeks. While this show is about like getting engaged, we can do whatever they wanted. And even if we get engaged,

he didn't even just broach the subject. He didn't like suggest it even for them to work through it and still decide to break up. You know how sometimes when you're like going through it. I love how when you said earlier, that was like the healthiest. And I'm like, I'm like,

it really was healthy. Am I a toxic person? You know what I mean? Like, you're over there like, I want to fight. I'm like, I'm over here. I'd fight. And so it gets to the point toxic person you know what i mean like you're over there like i want to fight i'm like i'm over here i'd fight and so it gets to the point of you know thinking about what is the healthiest approach to have this type of conversation or do you really kind of well there's fire it up inside there's making the healthy choice but there's still like let's say let's take out toxic sorry that was the wrong word. Passionate. Yeah. Like a passionate fighter.

I'm glad that as a conversation around dating, we're working through what's healthy, what's toxic. But we are human beings. Yeah. And in the moment when we're feeling love and we're about to lose something that we think is potentially really special to us, we might not be perfect in the moment. And we might reach. We might make a case for an argument that we might reach. We might, you know, make

a case for an argument that we might work through and realize, you know, maybe it isn't right. But there was none of that. It's also respectful that he's respecting her choice, you know? Like, she seemed like she was already emotional from the start of the day. Like, she knew going into that that this was

the decision that she was going to make. I just think it's easier to be respectful when you don't care as much as it seems like you do. But I think you can't build a relationship like on a landmine in terms of like if there is something that you know will be a source of like difficulty or challenge or struggle or that you don't feel prepared for. like how are you psychologically supposed to continue to fall in love with someone when you know deep down it would eventually get to the point where like you would be in a position where like you want to be a mom and you don't feel ready for that like i think they were so i think it was so real i thought the way they kissed each other when they first saw each other for the date like it was like a long lovely kiss and then there was like like do you know what i mean like it was just like stuff that i don't think you can fake in terms of like the genuine affection, the way she like put her head on his shoulder. And I agree

that it was like, it was a little bit disappointing that they didn't fight for one another. But I think that was a testament to the way they're both so like mature. And I think both of them like had one of them like kind of extended that like outreach, but like, but I miss you. I think they absolutely would have taken it. But I think both of them had too much respect for the other person's role like nate for how gabby needs to be definitive and make decision and gabby for the fact that she's in this huge position of power and she can't give him the run around maybe i don't wow but i agree with you i think you can't push the mic after that i know thanks done i agree that you can't build a relationship on a landmine and i think they both knew that when their relationship started and what i'm saying is

in the back of at least gabby's mind she always knew nate had a kid and so i think that stopped her from really saying fuck because in this world you have to say this is crazy i know it's crazy but fuck it i want to do it i'm just gonna do it and all the things that like in the real world that make you go i don't know this is a little nuts like you just you choose to look the other way and i think gabby never chose to look the other way with nate and from the beginning and i think that has stopped her from really feeling like this passion we're seeing between rachel and tino again i'm not saying one's right or wrong. I'm not criticizing the relationship. I'm just saying I didn't see it. And now I'm realizing after watching the breakup, it's all that much more clear to me why I didn't see the passion. I think we saw them a lot. I think we, and it was amped up. And I think part of that is probably because they're probably

thinking about Nate as the next bachelor is my guess. And I guess we'll find out. I love Nate. I mean, I hope he's a dad. Prediction. I think the next bachelor will be a dad. Wow. Because they were really wanting Michael before. What if Michael goes back on Paradise and has a moment?

Yeah. Or if he just didn't want to do it. That too. I'm just saying your next bachelor is going to be a dad. Which I think is fantastic. I love it. I hope it happens. For sure. Rachel's just saying your next bachelor is going to be a dad. Which I think is fantastic. I love it. I hope it happens. For sure. Rachel's one-on-one with Zach. We did

have the L-bomb drop. I really like Zach. I think he's very wholesome. Sweet. He's very sweet. But the thing is, I don't think that Rachel likes that. I think she feels like this man is so solid. I feel like he's

solid. He's ready to settle. He's ready to be a husband right now. I totally agree with you. I'm going to say something. You tell me if you agree. I think what Rachel likes about Zach, and not loves, but really likes, is how much

Zach likes Rachel. Yes. Retweet. That is really likes is how much zach like rates likes rachel yes yes retweet um i feel that is this that is what their relationship is built on yes and i think she wants a little bit more she wants that like i that validation like i see you i i love you i want to be with you i want you to meet my family my family will be obsessed with you. She wants that. But I feel like she wants a little bit more like risk, which Zach doesn't have. Zach is safe.

He's really endearing. Like everything is exciting, Zach. Yes. Everything. He's just like, oh my God. The tulips. Unbelievable. The tulips. This is so, I mean, and it's really endearing.

Tulips garden for love. And it's not a criticism. I'm the opposite. I mean, and it's really endearing. Tulips garden for love. And it's not a criticism. I'm the opposite. I'm more like, cool. Love that. Tulips. Great. Nice.

And inside I'm thinking, oh, that's pretty cool. But like outwardly, I'm not as expressive. But Zach has a gift for showing his appreciation of anything. Yeah.

Literally. I think Zach's super into her. I think their whole relationship is based off of Zach's obsession with Rachel. And I think when Rachel ends up with Tino. That's what I was thinking too. That in some ways, Tino and Rachel owe Zach a big thank you. Because if it weren't for.

She keeps on kicking. Rachel has clearly shown several moments of being disappointed. And at least the perception of how it's been edited is that she can't pick the pieces back up. But every time she runs into a Zach who's just like, you're the fucking best. And she's feeling a little down because Logan, who she didn't really like, doesn't like her and she's worried about that. He picks her up and being the lead is really hard it's so hard and i think zach has really helped bring rachel like along the way and pick her back up when she needs to be like that's why he's getting a second date before anyone else because we're like she need a picture it's like zach is rachel's red bull you know and like it's like Zach is Rachel's Red Bull you know like it's her cup of coffee

like he's the primer for Tino he's a fluffer he's a bachelor fluffer but did this not feel like seeing this tulips that bloom two weeks of the year to me that feels like kind of like a shopping date moment

of like this is kind of a once in a lifetime thing do you not take someone who's a front runner i obviously i also think she's ending up with tino but doesn't that kind of that was great they're beautiful beautiful i think sometimes but i think knowing zach which i don't but from what i've learned what i've learned is that if i'm a producer i'm gonna be like this guy's gonna lose his fucking mind over two week tulips and he's gonna think it's real special and he's gonna think that rachel chose him for this two-week special date and he's gonna be even more loved so when rachel breaks up with them at the altar when he's like picking out a ring he's going to be fucking destroyed and that's

going to be great tv that's what i think wow yeah he's already kind of giving brandon i but i was going to say though yeah very brandon vibes and like maybe we don't know maybe different but totally and maybe it is kind of like a validation thing where like more than a connection thing but i will say rachel was like glowing on this date like i was like my God, this is the person I remember from Clayton's season. Like she was like, oh, when they were riding bikes, like her and Zach, she tried to like stand on the seat at one point. Like I was like, ah, yes.

Okay. Like this is the person who, like this is the bachelorette because we've just seen her go through it and be in such a different place emotionally. And so I do think it's a good thing that, do you think it's fair to keep someone around because they make you feel good? Well, I don't think Rachel is Machiavellian kind of, you know, like she's in it.

She's going through it. She can't get sent. I think she cares about him. And I don't think she's thinking she's using him or I don't think she's thinking what I just said and that A Ching agreed to. I think she just thinks he's a nice guy and she's not, she just said and that a ching agreed to i think she just thinks he's a nice guy and she's not she can't pick everyone you know but you think she kind of knows at this point probably i'd be shocked i don't you know that's what i think yeah i would say she 100 i think she knew when tino got a little limo you mean out of the forklift whatever

it's it's an impossible world to navigate and And as much as you want to use this opportunity to challenge yourself and get outside your comfort zone and meet new people, you still have eight or nine weeks to get to know someone that you want to propose to. And now, they spend even less time because they have two bachelorettes. And while you don't, looks certainly aren't everything but you can tangibly see the looks you can see the connection and that at least you can trust how do you know if anything that you're seeing from anyone is who they actually are so it's like i don't criticize leads who like it's hard to get away from your initial burning attraction to someone and say no

no i'm gonna let's say pick zach who seems really nice seems really enthusiastic but like i don't what do you really know you know can we just talk about though zach talking at dinner about sort of his struggles and stuff i think that's really interesting i mean i know that obviously bachelor from the point of views that I've watched, right? Let's say that other watch not learned. But is the sense of they want to pick up on your vulnerability and being able to showcase that so that the audience then gets to know you in a deeper way. But it's very interesting that they chose to tap into him saying that he was 85 pounds

heavier before and that that obviously tapped into his mental well-being and his struggles and kind of brought into the therapy aspect, which I think allowed for Rachel and everybody to see like that storyline that's that she's going through already. And then to say that, you know, she's done therapy after Clayton season, it like opened up a whole new can of something.

Yeah. I love that. I mean, that's now we have therapy being discussed in both like relationships i mean like gabby and i think it's relationships and it's interesting because it's like this wasn't his first one-on-one and i feel like i mean obviously we're all in the same boat like we feel like she picks tino at the end but like that's a good sign where it's not just like okay we had our first one-on-one where everything was

put out in the table like i feel like that's a good sign for Rachel to be like, oh, wow, like, I have so much more to get to know about you. You're so much deeper than I thought. Like, we can have just as meaningful conversations on multiple one-on-ones. It's not just like, well, there's my sad story. Other than that, I'm just a piece of paper. That's the thing. It's literally his second date.

They're going to hometowns, and he's just said that I've only had two relationships. Like, that he's just talking to her about that that and you think that in perspective you're like wait what like this this hasn't been a conversation that's been had yet you're right you know she sat down before hometowns with a guy she was zero insight in his dating history i completely agree well i guess it's just more of like you want to know everything i don't know like i'm just a curious bee so like when i'm like dating somebody i want to know everything about them because i'm so interested and i love who they are and what makes them that you know so it's kind of a thing of like i would ask in the sense of understanding

them to a deeper level but that's crazy you know yeah not so you think of like you're going to hometowns she's like he's like oh so you know i've had two relationships like wait what this is only just being discussed yeah she had no idea whether it was five two zero she had no idea oh gosh so zach we he's gonna be heartbroken i'm gonna be heartbroken i have a question do they do so many hot tubs so that way it's not obvious if someone has an erection? I don't think so. I'm sorry. I know it's a real non sequitur, but I was kind of thinking about it.

I was like, ah, yes, the Bachelor classic hot tub somewhere. You didn't think there'd ever be a hot tub? But I was like, oh, maybe it's kind of good on this show where you're trying to develop physical intimacy. Not that on your second date, someone having an erection is necessarily physical intimacy. But do you know what I mean? I was like, oh, huh.

It kind of makes sense that it's underwater where they can like. Maybe. You can just like touch each other's legs without it being on camera. Honestly, now that I'm thinking about it, there is logic to that thought process. I mean, because my first reaction was it was just like a trope that they just now do for fun because it's like fun to put a hot tub out in the middle of nowhere and everyone's just like rolls their eyes but like but also you're right it allows for for moments of like a more intimate physical connection while on camera that allows abc disney to still air it. Yeah.

I don't know. That's all I'm saying. Watch people's hands when they're in the hot tubs, people. It's an interesting take. It has validity. Should we get on to Gabby's group date? Gabby's group date.

Let's do it. The whip? The sexy lady. Johnny Shined. Johnny Shined. Who walked in and was like, I don't know if I'm like excited or nervous. Or like, I don't know if I'm like excited or nervous.

Or like, I don't know if I'm turned on or nervous. I think it was like Logan or someone. Logan's out with COVID. Logan, he was really out of COVID at that point. No, he was at the date, I think. Yeah, he was at the date. No, I have it that Gabby visited her men because his safe word was asbestos.

Asbestos. Asbestos. Yeah. Wouldn't you think of a safe word? I'll think of a sexy safe word was asbestos. It was asbestos. Yeah. Wouldn't you think of a safe word? I would think of a sexy safe word. Oh, I think of the opposite. What would you say?

Tomatoes? I liked albuquerque. I'd want something that would immediately turn us both off. Ah, what would it be? I want to hear everyone's safe word right now. I don't know. Like, what do you... Baby talk. Hey!

That would be like... I feel like that would make it more... Mom. I'd be like, all right, we're done. And we're done. And we're done. I was like, do you think the people who use password as their password use safe word as their safe word?

What did you say? I said limp biscuit. Interesting. What were all their safe words? Albuquerque was one of them pumpkin and Jason's was cruise ship so Jason's not having fun

shouldn't your safe shouldn't it just be like one word if you have to get too much out if it's too long like I don't know Albuquerque's a mouthful you're like why didn't I hear you? I said Albu.

I think it was, it was a cute day. I feel like Gabby looked like she was having a lot of fun. Yeah. Which I liked for her a lot. I just love,

I love when the, yeah, Susie was like, so quick. She's fine. She's like, how many of you know how to treat a woman

in the bedroom? And like, no one moves and she's like how many of you know how to treat a woman in the bedroom and like no one moves and johnny's like no it's a tough question to ask men because you don't want to like come across as like vibrato or peacocking so i thought johnny gave the appropriate amount of like i put some thought into it but like i don't want to be cocky. I know, but like, yeah. I don't want to let you be the deciding factor. I'd definitely try. There was like a humility with his, like, hand raise. I like it. It's good, though.

I think that's where Johnny shined in this episode. It's like the first time you actually recognize that they had an actual connection. What was the first question they bleeped out? If you know how to give a woman head. That's my question. That's what i thought right and and i was a little surprised by the men's reaction they seemed shy uncomfortable i thought one of the guys would have been like taking the opportunity to be like i fucking love it i know

and it's like have america just i know because there's always one guy who thinks he's an absolute hero i know but like we live in a time where still like i've you know we here in our like it's men are sometimes uh can be guilty of of uh wanting to receive more than they're willing to give and i feel like in a in a show often watched by women there would have been a guy who had been like i'm just gonna go ahead and and say this crap like i don't know it was like a layup and i feel like I don't know they just all seem really uncomfortable which maybe being

recorded doing sexy things maybe is like kind of uncomfortable but I feel like some of these questions like the one like you know

can you I think it was like to one person was it to the whole group I think it was the whole group you know who would have said I fucking love it Johnny

who Blake Moynes from Katie's season he's like not only do I love it I will paint it Johnny. Who? Blake Moynes. Yes. From Katie's season. He's like, not only do I love it, I will paint it. But, yeah, I feel like if somebody came out and said, like, yeah. Yeah. And not even saying, like, I give good head.

I give head. That's it. That's enough. Or just say, like, I really enjoy making her, you know, whatever. Because it's pleasure. Like, it's always, like, a two-way thing. And, like thing and like you just said like I think on a show where a lot of women are watching I think having that you know step up would be

chef's kiss. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was a miss by the men. Missed opportunity. I don't know. What were some of the other questions they had? Jason had the commentary where he was like this is not Spencer's natural element and we have like Spencer the military man he was like, this is not Spencer's natural element. And we have like Spencer, the military man,

being like, knots are for purpose, not pleasure. He was truly struggling. Eric said he was sexually open, which I thought, I feel like Eric might be a front runner.

I could see him being a freak. Yeah. I would like to see Eric go to fantasy suites Who was the one I'll say, I'll try anything twice. I like that.

Was that Johnny? I think that was Johnny. Johnny thrived. Johnny was the one I'll say I'll try anything twice? I like that. Was that Johnny? I think that was Johnny. Johnny thrived. Johnny was thriving in there. I feel like Bachelor, they keep bringing in more sex positivity though on the female side.

I think over the years they've been more willing to discuss sex. But yeah, I think they at times are never, this show's never going to be accused of being the most progressive show

out there. But every once in a while they tend to try to be more progressive with their conversations. Yeah, I was going to say, Johnny got punished, though, for having so much fun. He was the one who got candle wax dripped on him. Got nipple plucked, you know, or whatever. Punished is the wrong word. But he was really leaning in. Mildly tortured.

In a sensual way in front of four other men. But like, I do think it was a very much when Johnny had said on his one-on-one that like he can't be as like when he, the time he was weird and really let his personality and kind of dropped to the like cool cowboy stud mysterious persona was when he, his ex broke up with him. I thought it was a very good sign to see him so, like, gregarious and out there on the date. I think for the guys

who embraced it, it was, they benefited from it. But I also think it's okay that some of them didn't. Like, I also think it's okay for some of them to say, like, you know what,

this is uncomfortable for me to talk about because not everybody wants to talk about their sex life and that's okay too. Totally. You know, I think that,

like, you shouldn't be condemned. Like, Jason shouldn't be necessarily condemned for, you know, feeling uncomfortable. you shouldn't be condemned like jason shouldn't be necessarily condemned for you know feeling uncomfortable not necessarily condemned i just think it speaks to and i guess i honestly didn't see jason as uncomfortable and i think maybe it's because for me my perception of him has always been he's generally more reserved right where with spencer it stood out more and i'm not condemning i think it's just more speaks to well if nothing else, lack of compatibility. Because Gabby, it wasn't so much the sex element, but I think she just embraced the goofy, playful, who gives a shit, less polished, less worrying about what are people going to think.

Because Gabby comes across as someone who seems to be pretty good at being in the moment and really likes to embrace all aspects of herself. And I think anything that's considered non-traditional is an opportunity to do that. I think that's why we see her and Johnny have chemistry because anytime Johnny shows that side, you see her immediately responding to that. So I think if nothing else, this date allowed Gabby to see who she might be more compatible with or not. And I guess speaking about Jason, even though I still think he might win, I think...

I do. I could be wrong. I do too. I think that's still an element of... If they ended up together, that's something that is not the same, which is okay. You don't always have to be... But they could be behind closed doors. Yeah, sure., but they could be behind closed doors. Yeah,

sure. Maybe he's a freak behind closed doors. You never know. Jason could be like, listen, if I let it pop, it's like, it's done.

We are not getting this genie back in the bottle. Like I'm either, I'm either going five miles per hour or I'm going 500 baby. Like maybe that's Jason. I don't know. Would you rather be on the sexy freak date or the

strong man cheese competition the sexy freak date yeah the cheese the cheese thing felt like so I don't know Rachel was like

that's putting more in the competition again there's a lot of competition yeah because she was like they asked like who's strong and all the men were like and Rachel was like

they're strong we have strong men here and the men were like, and Rachel was like, they're strong. We have strong men here. And so I felt like they had to like compete. Rachel fucking loved it. She loved it. She was like, yes, you can do it. Go Tina. Her line where she was like,

if you want to take your shirt off, you can. That was random to me, but also it was sexier for sure. I loved it. What's funny about these, both these dates, they couldn't was sexier for sure. I loved it. What's funny about both these dates, they couldn't have been more perfectly selected for both the leads. Like I feel like Rachel might have been a bit uncomfortable on Gabby's date.

And I don't think Gabby would have been as into it. I feel like Gabby would have been like, cheese. I just love they did the first round with like one wheel on each one. And like the glee on Rachel's face as she was carrying over another wheel of cheese cheese you know i just love they did the first round with like one wheel on each one and like the glee on rachel's face as she was carrying over another wheel of cheese to like add it to their so like these guys are competing for me and like i know and like every cheese she put on was like like love like if they can hold this they can hold my love my love yes like it was i think like you could see his literal connection

between the two. just being like, I'm lactose intolerant. Like I loved Ethan on this date. Yeah, he thrived. Yeah, I loved it.

Also, this was a strong reminder for the difference between gym muscles and man muscles because like you have, you saw a lot of gym muscles of like abs

and all these guys at the gym and working out and Tino, like obviously, like he didn't have the, you know, as we might call gym muscles of like abs and all these guys at the gym and working out and tino like obviously like he didn't have the you know what is we might call gym muscles but he has man strength and he just outperformed those guys like he was clearly like when the guys took their shirt off like those tyler well he even made a comment about it he made a comment about that he's like i'm surrounded by guys who clearly go working out. Just doing curls.

Up there curling the bar. Not really. Looks good. Gym muscles and man muscles. Two very different things. Was anyone else a bit jarred by the title of it all? Because I feel like he has this really cute, almost baby face. And then he took his shirt off.

And I was like, it just doesn't go. The neck down and the neck up are two different people. It's like a teddy bear and like an action figure. It's like when you're a kid and you got in this weird phase where you'd like take apart your toys and put something on them. Like that's Tyler. Like He-Man and your teddy bear when you were a child. But he is, he's proving to be quite the competitor what did you both see him all along as kind of like a real competitor or was it

what'd you say it was the letter for her oh yeah i do remember when they were doing the love notes i think yeah it was cute he was like i've had this in the back of my pocket it was when they were doing poems or something he doesn't do it for me I think he just came out of the blue for me right now even when she gave him

the group date rose I was like what I was either thinking it would be Tina or Ethan so when she said somebody who makes me

feel seen and loved and appreciated like even Tina was smiling even Ethan was smiling and then she was like Tyler I was like what so random to me i i feel like the reason why it doesn't it might not be

tyler's fault i think again this might be just how the we just we're just not they're not showing us the guys they're not showing us the relationships so it could go either way but tyler when i watch tyler tyler for me comes across as the guy you see every season who's just like, this is why I defended Logan last week. Because whether you like what he did or not, that was clearly a tough decision. And he knew he'd get criticism for it. And like, he must be like following his heart. I don't mean, I don't know if I agree with his heart, but he's following it. You know, where Tyler's just like, hasn't spent any time with Rachel that we've been able to see.

He's just like, I'm ready to spend the rest of my life with her. And I'm just like, okay. Like, I just don't buy anything you're saying. You're full of shit. That's just kind of how I see Tyler. Or he's just like in it because he's there. And as long as Rachel keeps him around, he'll say some like platitudes or whatever the fuck. But it's just like, I don't know.

Like, I feel like I'm gonna run into tyler someday you know and at these like group meetings and tyler is gonna like come up to me and talk about like all these like social media ideas he has and that's that's just how and that might be totally off base i don't know him but there's always a couple every season or just like talking about like they're running like YouTube ideas past me and asking like about their book ideas and I'm just like, that's great, man. That's cool.

Good luck with all of that and I feel like that might be Tyler but I could be wrong. But okay, so speaking about her cocktail party, did anyone else think that it was like a little concerning that Avon was telling her basically

like his parents did not like his exes and it didn't go very well. Didn't, wasn't Rachel's dad though really tough like Clayton season? So at the end of the day, I think she's like, I don't know why she wouldn't have brought that up

and been like, you know, my parents are actually a bit difficult as well. You know? That's an interesting point. I actually saw it. She just kind of said like, okay.

I saw it as Rachel thinking parents like me. But I think that's an interesting point. I actually saw it as... She just kind of said like, okay. I saw it as Rachel thinking parents like me. But I think that's an interesting point that she didn't have that kind of... That was an opportunity for her to maybe relate to Ivan and be like, hey, my dad and I have a close relationship. He's very productive. Because that's the thing with parents.

Such a fine line, right? Sometimes you can have parents where it's just like, hey, thanks dad but like i i got this and and and they don't know how to let their kids just make their own choices and other times it's like a little heads up would have been nice yeah mom dad you know like sometimes that's the tough part i think about being a parent so i didn't really have a problem with ivan saying that but you're right i thought it was maybe a bit of a miss i also think it's nice that ivan was was that honest yeah you know instead of kind of being like oh yeah everything's gonna

be great everything's fine like i think it's kind of nice that he's like hey you know what we've had some troubles in the past but don't worry like they're gonna see our relationship which i thought was really cute that he said that like they're gonna see how we are together it was kind of like yeah my uh my dad will have an opinion yeah um and he'll share it he probably like he got a writer for it yeah one of his quotes was like they'll like me with you like they'll like the way i love that and so maybe that's also telling of how rachel feels about avon she's like cool great like maybe she feels nothing you're going home after the fantasy i know she was like i can't wait to as in like maybe she's excited to meet his his family or also maybe she's like okay great thank you for telling me that like i don't really feel anything here it's team tino yeah should we

dive into tino's reaction tino's moody uh yeah he had to remove himself i uh i emphasize with tino what do you ladies think his reaction to not to tyler getting uh i think there's a lot of emotions that you have to take into account like if you really care about somebody and there's a lot going on i think sometimes people are a little bit too chill and they're like oh he got the data okay cool no worries it's like if you really care it going to stir some things up inside of you. 100%. And I think that's okay. I mean, I do think there was obviously one shot

that was shown that he probably was talking to a producer and he didn't even know he probably was on camera when he had that little bit of an outburst. You know, and I think that that's just showcasing that he felt comfortable enough to go to the crew as well to be able to be like, this is what's going on. This is how I'm feeling. And it's harder probably for him to have that conversation with the guys

because it's having the conversation around the same woman that they don't really want to have in the discussions. I mean, you know better than anybody else, probably myself, do you guys discuss off camera about, or do you guys try and keep it as like level? I think historically in the show, the men are a little bit more guarded. And for whatever reason,

the women are more talkative about like their experiences with the same bachelor. And the men are a little bit not as much, you know, it can vary from person to person, but I totally agree with you what about you does she i think that tino was giving man child vibes to me you're a little critical of him yeah so i was like yeah it sucks but it feels calculated he was like i did everything right

i won the thing i mean i won the cheese the cheese thing. I told her how I felt. It felt calculated to me. He felt like I should have won, but he didn't, and he threw a fit. He definitely did not handle the disappointment as well as he could have. Of course. But I do empathize with the disappointment. And also it reminded me, it was early in this episode, one of the things I think the stupidest fucking things men on this show say,

and they say it every fucking season it's like you know they're always like do you think he'll be back and they'll be like yeah he's he's a good guy so yeah it's like what the fuck that doesn't have anything to do with it you know like obviously you want the leads to end up with a good guy but they always talk about like as if like and i hate it too because it's this idea of well if you're a good guy or a good girl or a good person then then you shouldn't be rejected then well if you're you're a good person well then they that you can't possibly not have a chemistry and they they say it every fucking season on every fucking date and the guys say it more than anyone be like yeah he's a he's a good

dude so like yeah he'll be back and i'm like i don't know maybe they don't have a connection maybe they're not a vibe and even though and if and if she doesn't if she does send him home still a good guy still a good guy you know has nothing to do with whether they're gonna like find a vibe but they say it every fucking season as if like and they do it because well when they don't send him home and then when this opens up the door, it'll be like, well, I don't know. Maybe he's a bad guy. Maybe they saw something in each other. It's just like, I don't know.

Maybe they just don't vibe. I don't like, it happens all the fucking time. And I think it's just so, so stupid. But I empathize with, he could have handled it better. I agree with you. But I'm more on Haley's camp. I mean, he could have handled it better, for sure. But he's also a human being from

tino's standpoint my guess is here's my read on tino having been in this world and and and had fallen in love is that there's always one and sometimes two guys who like look at the rest of their peers and they just have a decision they decide for themselves i'm gonna pretend i'm gonna go along with you pretending to like the same girl I know I'm falling in love with. And like, Tino's getting validation from Rachel that these other guys haven't. You've seen some of these guys acknowledge that, right? The way, like, these guys aren't idiots. They see the way she looks at him, at Tino. And meanwhile, Tino's, and he's said this, I mean, he is saying throughout this episode, he has essentially already told Rachel, I'm going to propose to you.

Like I've decided I'm going to do this crazy fucking thing, which is to get down on one knee and ask you to marry me. And he probably showed up like everyone else being like, I'll get to travel, maybe get some Instagram follows. I'll meet a cute girl. We'll see. I don't know. And then he got surprised by the woman he met rachel fell in love with her and now

he's starting to have these like actual thoughts of being like oh fuck i actually might do this no shit i'm going to do it and then all of a sudden right at the exact moment when they know how to do it and actually this happening to tino in this episode guarantees me that he definitely wins because everywhere around this time they have to like pretend that like you should worry about the person you think they're for sure like they have to like get some stakes in the game around like a little drama on this what otherwise is a perfectly great relationship but yeah i mean like when tino saw tyler got that rose he truly probably was like are you fucking kidding me like truly like you my he sees he sees rachel as his girlfriend

and that's the only way he can see rachel because otherwise it's insane to try to get engaged with someone he at this point doesn't actually literally see as his girlfriend and the only way he's able to literally see his girlfriend is by not acknowledging these other relationships like it's not how it happens for all these guys because all these like tyler is just like yeah it's been the rest of my life with her like because he knows he's not getting picked he fucking knows otherwise or he's delusional one of the two i think also part of tino's reaction is like zach's gotten a second one-on-one and tino has kind of felt the thing that the line that really changed the way i view like tino's reaction was when after the date card came for the one-on-one

it was Zach he went I'm gonna go pout in the gym and to me that really made me like him because I was like it's if you're aware of your like kind of childish shitty emotions and you just know how to like isolate yourself and let them pass then like that's allowed but he needs to feel yeah these guys are allowed to feel something yeah and uh I also think it was a good point that you said like he's like he's really laser focused that this is my girlfriend. And I think sometimes it's hard to actually see them as like boyfriend, girlfriend, when they're having their little conversations,

because you kind of just have this feel of they're just swinging around rather than it being like this, these intimate, singular relationships. People always say like, you know what you signed up for until you know what it's like to fall in love with someone in a world where you have to share that person with other people, you don't know what it's like. You will never know how you're going to handle that.

And most of the time you just think, well, I probably won't fall in love. But for every season, there's one or two people who are like fuck i really shit and then i'm like oh i want to get i want to get engaged to this person and then they're just validating tyler you're just like the fuck i know and like what tino said is like well maybe i mean he said at the end he says like this whole time i've been thinking that she's as into me as i'm into her something to that effect and he and he kind of said, well, I could be wrong. And you know how in real life relationships, I think one of the scariest things in any relationship,

because power dynamics often change. Sometimes you're feeling yourself, and even though you always have equal power relationships, you're just feeling really secure in my relationship, feeling real good. But every once in a while, something will happen. Something will change. And all of a sudden, you're feeling like, do you love me relationship, feeling real good. But every once in a while, something will happen. Something will change. And all of a sudden you're feeling like, do you love me anymore?

You know, like you just, and that happens all the time. And that could be a real scary moment where all of a sudden you feel like real confident. Like my person's obsessed with me to like, I think you hate me. And I think, and those moments happen in Bachelor World all the time. And I think that's what's happened in Tino. He felt very secure, very powerful as compared to the guys. And all of a sudden, Zach gets tulips and Tyler gets this other sense of validation. Meanwhile, they made Tino say, we're just going to give you the last rose this week

just to fuck with you, just to see how you, just we don't want you getting too cocky. And that's the reaction you saw. But I agree with you, Amanda. you know and and that's what and that's the reaction you saw but i agree with you amanda like he he recognizes that he's having an emotional reaction and that he might just need to process it's like when the when my favorite sports teams loses i'm just like just give me like an app just give me it's like it's just taking care of your mental well-being right it's like knowing yourself and what's going to trigger you and knowing how to be able to take care of it and then you know picked up the pieces and ethan had a little man chat with Tino

and Tino didn't try to defend it. He was just like, hey, man, I had a moment and wasn't my best self. And this is hard. Whatever. Also, can we talk about the quote? I don't know who said it. They did not show lips moving, but quote, Tino is acting like a real baby back bitch.

Oh, it was it was even. Did even say that? Yes. That's a acting like a real baby back bitch oh it was it was um even did even say that yes that's a pretty creative a baby back bitch yeah the alliteration really but i feel like i can understand that too because even even said earlier in the date that tino's been a front runner like he like knows so it's like if i'm even and if i think i have a connection but i've also seen clearly tino is the front runner has been from the beginning and then he's going on pouting i'm like come on dude like how much validation do you need i wish i was getting from her what you are how much validation would you need to get engaged with someone in eight weeks no i'm like i'd understand tino's reaction but i can also see from aven's perspective like why he would use a

comment like that because he's like dude you're the golden child stop whining. To be honest though I see it and I love Avin I see it as Tino's the only one there for the right reasons. You think everybody else is not? I thought Ethan was. I don't think anyone really goes like listen I think nowadays when people

show up like the opportunities are so the potential opportunities are so obvious that like i think would be kind of insane for want someone to be like i'm signing up for love like i think it's nutty i think you shine up for an open mind a lot of women's hearts it's like meeting sorry uh no i mean i believe it i think when you show up you can be surprised and caught off guard and you can fall in love but like even haven it's week before hometowns and it's just like you shouldn't be cool like at this point you should

feel crazy yeah you should feel like you're losing your mind you should feel like you're sharing your girlfriend and that for most people is not something people are into week one you're just like i don't know her i know these guys it cooler. It's easier to be like, hey guys, group date. It's fun. But now it's hard. The emotional intensity is shifting and you see that with Tino and all these other guys being like equal opportunity. To me, it's just like those aren't guys who actually believe deep down that they're going to be walking away from this experience as an engaged man. Andino believes that avon doesn't normally though in the show i feel like there's always one person that gets picked out for going on to the show for ill intentions and i don't feel like they've really paid any attention to anybody doing that this time i think well one i've heard

it was bro and two you're getting the drama from the comparisons of the two leads. I mean, think about what drama between the men have we seen at all? Chris? Yeah, Chris. We got the alpha male. Week two. Yeah, since Chris, nothing. Yeah, I feel like I kept waiting for Eric to show himself as this villain.

Leveled in. What is your take on Eric? I like Eric. I like Eric? I like Eric. I like Eric and I like Jason. Quiet confidence. Quiet confidence is sexy. I still think she's going to pick Jason and if she breaks up with Eric at the altar,

he's going to be angry. Do you think it's going to be them too? My prediction is Gabby and Jason, Rachel and Tino. And I think Eric is second. I agree. You can just see the energy of the calmness as well. I think when they're calmer about it sometimes too, and like the group date,

they just, it showcases that there's a deeper connection that they just know. At least on the men's side. I do just feel like after Gabby's hometowns, it could be anyone's game. That is true. I really think that like, there's's hometowns, it could be anyone's game. That is true. No, it's like I really think that like I don't feel like Jason. I think I agree is maybe like a front runner.

But then again, Johnny is really I I really like the direction Johnny is headed in. And I think he's delightful. I don't think there's a connection between him and Gabby. I think like there was like something fun that happened during the group date. And that was like cute. And she saw a different like version of him. but I don't think like she likes him. You know what I want? I want her to go to hometowns and then realize that she like actually loves Nate and then she's going to fall in love with him.

It's possible. They've brought people back. I don't see it but. That's just what I want. Would you rather have Nate and Gabby or Nate as the next Bachelor? Nate as the next Bachelor, actually. Because I'm going to be on that scene. Because Nate,

if you don't want your Bachelor to look like he can't get over. So if Nate comes back and fights for Gabby, that will take away from his, like, ready to find love with 30 new women so that's a fine line they have to walk sometimes just a little and what do we think about the three men to hometowns and

sending Spencer home I think it's interesting that Logan definitely had like Logan was gonna go to hometown I think no date okay the thing is that I think Logan was here for other reasons. I don't think he was here to find love. I do too. I think that little weird moment when he was like not on any group, he went and had a few rendezvous in Amsterdam. That's what I was saying earlier. Oh, you think he went and got COVID.

I think that's how he got COVID because like, wow. Snuck off the ship. Snuck off the ship, went and got a few Dutchutch babes and he was out okay yeah and so i think he was here he was here that's what i that's my gut feeling and i also feel like also he was there i don't know if i was there to find love like even that like move where he was like okay i really like you rachel but actually i'm really loving gabby but then also kissed both of them on the same day like which is fine like you're trying to figure out who you like most i just don't think it was legit and honest i think

he's here for the brand deals that's all i have to say hey it's possible a lot of unknowns with logan a real unceremonious like exit i thought it was really interesting that Jesse just didn't tell the guys. I think he wanted the guys to probably then have that conversation, leave it up to speculation. Totally. But I thought it was interesting. I thought the show gave themselves away a little bit. It broke the fourth wall because you saw him saw him tell gabby obvious he's got

coven mary and then he he doesn't tell the men and by not telling them it allows the men to speculate whether like is gabby's feelings hurt is logan okay the the unknown of it all creates the drama and it's such a simple tool that you get to do by just not telling but then you had spencer which which i i mean with the producer hat like looking behind it all you have a spencer who then was like what is he feeling okay so i was like well maybe they did tell them and they just didn't and edited it out or not not edited it out but maybe they told them off camera and then just presented it in that manner because Spencer did say, what is he feeling? OK, so I was like.

Eventually, I'm sure they told them. But in that moment, Jesse deliberately didn't just to see how they would react. Yeah. Just to see if someone would say something or do something. And I just thought it was interesting that the show kind of outed themselves in terms of how they communicate with their contestants at times, which is we'll share you information,

we won't share you information, and we will see how you react. Yeah. And, you know, whatevs. I just thought that was interesting on their part. Yeah. Like, I don't know what their goal was. So let's get into

final thoughts. Well, you've heard my predictions. A Ching, are we just Tino? I mean, do we, does anyone not think? I believe it's

Tino and Rachel and it's Jason and Gabby. Okay. And who do you think is going to be Rachel's runner-up? Do you think Avon or Zach? Zach.

I think it's going to be Zach. Yeah. And I also, the thing is that I sort of feel like Gabby won't end up with someone because I feel like she during this whole the last episodes I've just been watching she's been dealing with a lot of her own personal growth and I think she's really finding herself and um like how she can love and how she can be loved. And I think the men who she has right now are not it. I think she really deserves a man who really like is riding for her, who is really who really sees her and her experience as a woman right now and her growth. And I think unless maybe the hometowns are really something else and she has different experiences with um their families i just don't think she'll end up with someone that

she's like really she'll end up with someone at all or end up with someone that she's really into i i mean your your point makes total sense now right and that's the thing you just kind of said like yeah you know we still have hometowns i still don't know how they're going to air it, but they're still going to have hometowns. We got fantasy suites. It does, like, and then who knows, maybe they'll start giving them extra time. Maybe now we'll still,

there'll be a ton of emphasis on these relationships, and all of a sudden we'll get a completely different perspective of these relationships. But yeah, we just haven't spent a lot of time with any of these relationships and other than us continue to joke about the tino and rachel of it all just because she's been so like it's been so transparent their chemistry radiates off the screen specifically her interest in him and then obviously he's reciprocating it and gabby this whole time has been more know, like she at least keeps her choices. I think she is careful with how she expresses things and whether she's more thoughtful with it or reserved or whatever her reasons are. You know, it's harder to read for Gabby.

And whether it's no chemistry, it's just maybe it's the wrong guys or we just haven't seen it yet. I think that's, you know, I guess remains to be seen. wrong guys or we just haven't seen it yet. I think that's, you know, I guess remains to be seen, but I think more, more Gabby,

I think Gabby's is the more interesting love story at this point because there are more unknowns. And now we're just like wondering if like how, how Zach will we deal with, with the rejection. I do really like Gabby though. And I really do like Rachel. I think they're great girls. Yeah.

They have a lot, they've shown a lot of great qualities and they've shown some, you know, they've had their low points and like, that's how the show goes. But I love that they're actually showing like their vulnerability in the real, you know, at the end of the day, like we're going to have waves of emotions when you're dating somebody and things are going to come up that are going to surprise you. And I think they're not shying away from that. Yeah. And when Jesse's like, how are you feeling about hometowns without missing a b he's like nauseous like he's very honest yes i i really like both of them and

i think yeah i think it's just like exciting to see two women like really explore themselves and explore love in like such an unconventional way so no i love them both they're chef's kiss i love it all right yeah well that about does it. Ching, thank you for coming. Can you please let my audience know where they can follow you, all the great stuff you're doing, whether it's on social media or in life. Please let my audience know.

Yeah. First of all, thank you guys for having me. This was so sweet. So delicious. So delicious. Yeah, you can find me on TikTok andok and instagram at no ordinary noir it's a tantalizing sexy part of the internet we dance we drink mimosas um and have a good time and fun things are happening i'll be trailblazing at fashion week um in september so make sure to

catch me there maybe i'll run india yeah maybe you're running to me and um there's a few things what else is happening? Just a few more like tangible experiences for my audience and anybody else who wants to just have fun with me. So keep an eye out

on the socials for that. Haley, thank you as well. Thank you. And please let the audience know where they can subscribe, follow, all that fun stuff, all the things

you're working on. You can follow me at H. Hasselhoff and you can also listen to my podcast Redefine You with Haley Hasselhoff on all podcast platforms. We speak on mental health and ownership to self. Wonderful. Awesome. Well, be sure to check out Haley's podcast. Follow them both. Lovely follows. Ladies, thank you so much for coming.

Thank you. It's been great. You'll have to come back if you want. We will. We enjoy having both of you. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send your questions at AskNickAtCastMe.com. Cast with a K for all your Ask Nick thoughts. Tomorrow, Cheryl Burke joins us. We'll talk a little bit about divorce, addiction. She's a recovering addict. She's recently getting out of a divorce.

She's been very open about that. We'll also have texting office hours. What pop culture topics are we discussing tomorrow, Amanda? Oh boy, we got options. We have Lori Harvey's comments. I wanted to rehash a discussion about the Green Line test. Also modern day conversation about what the

bases mean now. We have the difference between envy and jealousy and why envy might actually be helpful according to a study. And also Kaley Cuoco's divorce and some of the comments she made about that. I'm excited to find out what those were. Tune in tomorrow. I'll see ya.