The Viall Files - E470 Bachelorette Recap w/ Cathy Kelley

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelorette Recap Edition! Today we are joined by journalist, host, model, and actress, Cathy Kelley! In this episode we jump in to break down the latest episodes of the Bachelorette, getting into both episodes of this week’s Fantasy Suites. We start off with some tea from Bachelor Nation, talking about Hannah Brown’s IG post about her brother’s wedding, and addressing the rumors if Gabby is on the next Dancing With The Stars. We then get into the episode itself, where we talk how Rachel and Gabby navigate situations that they called Clayton out for, if the lead always has to lead someone on, and when exploring all your options hurts the person you end up with. We talk about Jason’s goodbye and how he may have had a guard up, Erich communicating that being in the fantasy suites felt like being cheated on, and how to best have an argument while on camera. We also talk about the blowup between Zach and Rachel, which Bachelorette may be acting more than loving, and Gabby finally opening up fully for the first time on the show.  “Rachel is leading someone on for sure.”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Caraway: Visit http://www.Carawayhome.com/VIALL to take advantage of this limited-time offer for 10% off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit http://www.Carawayhome.com/VIALL or use code VIALL at checkout. Caraway. Non-Toxic cookware made modern. Helix Sleep: Helix is offering up to 200 dollars off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners! Go to http://www.HelixSleep.com/viall. With Helix, better sleep starts now. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @cathykelley @itscathykelley See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the vile files bachelorette recap edition we're talking fantasy suites. Allie and Amanda are with me in the one, the only, Kathy Kelly returns. I'm here. So good to have you. Halfway through your book, actually. I've read half of it. What do you think? It's great. I love it. Thank you. Yeah. Well, yeah.

Got some good analogies in there. Some good food analogies. Some good food analogies. Trying to make it basic. Yeah, they have the hard copy. Pre-order is available. Not going to give you the hard sell on the Bachelorette episodes, but have the hard copy pre-order is available i'm not going to give you the hard sell on the bachelorette episodes but if you want to pre-order it i really think it's good and for my critics out there if you want to like hate read it and try to you know buy a copy to burn yeah it's fine i really think you'll be annoyingly surprised it's available link in bio it's a big deal congrats on writing that i actually wrote it

and bio it's a big deal congrats on writing that i actually wrote it yeah no ghostwriter that's impressive i had a what they call a book doctor who helped me like an editor yeah yeah no like i wrote it to actually and then i submitted pages and then we helped because i wrote it in the sections you know i talked about like situationships and then i talked about it goes chapter by chapter yeah and then afterwards it was like it was like putting a puzzle together and they helped me with like the organization of the book i was like i got all these pages but it's it's literally like talking to you it's it's like getting advice as if you were there so yeah so you liked it it was good yes wasn't a total waste of your time no okay i enjoyed the read she's clearly halfway through she would have stopped after a page i don't know but pre-order now i'd

really appreciate it everyone out there some anecdotal stories about my life. And what else? Anyway, lots of talk about Kathy. I'm glad you are with us for this one. Oh my gosh. There's so much to get into. These episodes are a doozy. My brain feels melty afterwards.

We finally at least have something good to talk about, though. The first meaty, really meaty episode of the season, I think. Yeah. But before we do, there's some tea. I think we just burn right through it. Congratulations, Amanda Stanton, for getting married. Hedden Brown has a new sister-in-law. Yes, she does. Does she follow her on Instagram yet?

They do not follow each other. She doesn't follow her on Instagram yet. No, and what I found interesting is in her post, she posted like a carousel of photos from the wedding. First one was of her and her brother. The rest were her and her boyfriend Adam. Like a video of her dancing with her dad. Photos of her and her brother. The rest were her and her boyfriend Adam. Like a video of her dancing with her dad. Photos of her with her mom.

None of the sister-in-law. And she wasn't in the bridal party because I went and stalked the sister-in-law. Hannah was not in the bridal party. No shit. But I'm like siblings is that not just kind of like no matter what your status is and that not kind of like a a hall pass?

No. I feel like that's if you have space in the bridal party like the nice thing to do is to put your partner's like siblings yeah in there

my grandma always says I mean I have 10 siblings so like but my grandma Joanne always says doesn't matter if you really like them your family's not going anywhere friends can come and go

siblings are forever sure sure I totally agree with that but i just like to find it like he was anti-sibling just to play devil's advocate i've also turned down being bridesmaids sometimes just because like and i i will be honest about it of like hey i don't have the time and like i don't want you to feel disappointed you know months into this when i'm not able to dedicate that uh time and and commitment to your wedding setting upfront expectations that are hard to do but like

beneficial in the long run that's how you save your friendships and if they don't understand that that it's a huge not just time commitment money commitment like a lot of things and you're with our schedules like you don't know what you're doing a week from now, let alone six months from now. Yeah. And you know that if people will say yes to being in the wedding party, just they'll just say, yeah, of course I'm honored. And then all of a sudden it's just like, well, here's your to-do list. And it's like, I can't do all this. How many wedding parties have you been in where every single bridesmaid is complaining? I don't pay much attention to it. And I still hear about it. Exactly. There's always like one bridesmaid who doesn't want to be there at least. So many people do it resent no but it's true it's so true it's true

it's they feel guilt tripped i think a whole batch rep party so she's like getting like ptsd wondering who's talking shit behind her back next time you look at wedding photos you can just tell you look at the bridal party and you're like she doesn't want to be there like it's always in the eyes she got in a fight with the bride two days ago. So I'm fine with her not being in the wedding party. Not that I'm being embarrassed. But I'm surprised that she doesn't follow her. She doesn't follow her.

And the caption of her post said, I've come to realize my life is a never-ending plot twist, but it makes for a damn good, in parentheses, for sure weird story. For her brother's wedding? So Hannah Brown's congratulatory text for her brother's wedding was about Hannah Brown's story. A weird but damn good story. And it's also insane to not have the bride in any photos from the post.

I love it. Good team, Hannah Brown. They don't follow each other? Go off, Hannah. That is a main character caption, if I've ever heard one. Hannah Brown is the main character of this wedding for sure. And no one's mad. I mean, you know, whatever.

I'm not mad. I think it's hysterical. So sister-in-law Haley doesn't follow Hannah, but she does follow Nick Vial. She follows me? Mm-hmm. Why? Not sure. I haven't been particularly, like, gracious.

You got a loyal follower. maybe not after this episode she wants me to switch teams we should have her call in i've been when we can be and be like hey why do you follow me i'm curious should we have her call in mediation her and hannah brown it would make for an interesting podcast but weird weird. But weird. But damn good. Damn good. Damn good. All right. Well, congratulations to Hannah's brother and her bride and Hannah's new sister-in-law. Yeah. May there soon be a follow. Yes. Another interesting thing that's been going on, everyone's trying to predict who is going to be on Dancing with the Stars. I believe the full cast list is released on Thursday, but they're really trying to keep it under wraps. And obviously, rehearsals have started.

So people walking into rehearsals have been given these kind of like reflective face shields. It's the hide their identity. It does not work. But people have been able to see enough people from the side. Now put things together. We've been able to see kind of a profile shot of a woman who really looks like Gabby.

And so now people are like, Gabby's on the next season of Dancing with the Stars. She's even wearing the same hoop earrings. Exactly. They've been tracking earrings. You've seen these photos? They've been tracking manicures. But another interesting thing, we're sleuthing here.

And by we, I mean the internet. She goes into rehearsal wearing leggings and this oversized navy blue sweatshirt with sleeves that kind of have little indentations in them. And in this past season of The Bachelorette, Eric is wearing that same sweatshirt when he opens a date card and you can see the sleeves. So people are now like, it's Eric's sweatshirt. Well, spoiler alert. Now we now know he's the only one left on the show.

I mean, is that much of a spoiler, I guess? Not really. But I think these photos were before these episodes. Four days ago. Yeah. Four days ago. I just think it's interesting. Like you're having a top secret relationship and yet you're like, yeah, babe, I'll wear

your sweatshirt to rehearsal. It's not the most obvious sweatshirt. I'm not like it's not a tie dyed specific whatever. It's a what? Forest green. Yeah. It's a blueish random. Yeah. Yeah. whatever it's a what forest green like blue-ish random yeah i'm very thankful that people care about this show so much it's like and allow us to like talk about it and recap it but like

it's a shirt and i don't think they're like all it's it's like a bank heist i don't think people realize just how like when i say people i mean like. Take for granted just how invested fans can be. That's what I'm saying though, where it's like every time it's like a bank heist, they like plan it out. They're like, we're going to find the Spotify playlist that they're liking this playlist for. And then like, they're like, okay, we're adding another thing to the list of stuff you're not allowed to do.

When they found out about Cassie and Colton originally from Venmo, they were like Venmo requesting each other and that was public. Sneaky. Venmo should be, go to your settings, set it to private. That's the way if you really want to find out if your ex is dating someone new,

you check their Venmo. It's just weird. Like get out of my bank account. Well, yeah, but just go to, everyone should just go to Venmo and set it to private. Yeah.

Like why should that be public information? I mean, back in our college days when you were paying your roommate or something and you wrote for sexual favors. Yeah. Just to be public. Classic.

Oh, my God. So funny. Classic humor. So many people wrote that exact phrase in sexual favors. And they thought that it was so original and funny. All right. It would be in the early 2000s. Speaking of being invested in The Bachelor, should we dive into this week's episode?

Let's dive in. Oh, my God. I mean, there's so much to cover. I mean. I mean, we have double the content. Yeah. I feel like these episodes really validated our feelings on everything of guys saying that they're not sure if they're ready yet because they don't really know people. We don't know people. After this entire season, we're in overnight dates and we don't really know anyone. I know. I mean, these guys are just kind of like, I'm not so sure. And they're kind of low key being shamed for it, even though this whole season was obviously about the two batch threats. Obviously, we didn't get to see a lot because of

limited airtime. So like dates are cut short. I mean, there's probably dates we never even got to see. Who even knows? But even from a production schedule, I bet those dates that are typically a full day might have been a half a day sometimes. Yeah. And the conversations went from being, you know, a good 10, 15 minutes to eight minutes, which sounds silly. But like in that world is half the time, you know, and you're left with less time to build a connection.

So, yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you. I think it kind of definitely validated everything we've been feeling. Good looking, clean cooking with Caraway. I have their Dutch oven and it's been like sitting proudly on my stove just because it's so pretty and it just looks brand spanking new. But I'm moving, so I had to package everything up and bubble wrap it. And I took it off my stove and it's like, it doesn't matter how many times you use it, it will still look brand new. Like the inside, the outside, it like people were like, have you even touched this? And I was like, yes, it just constantly retains its beauty. I have two Caraway cooking sets. I use them every

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for work conversation. Helix is offering up to 200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners just go to helixsleep.com slash v-i-a-l-l with helix better sleep starts now i love how gabby and rachel kind of started off by kind of just recapping all their men uh talking about it i noticed you know how gabby says yeah a lot yeah i notice I noticed in there, yeah. Yeah, she does that. Not only does she audibly says yes,

but even after she gets done talking, she'll say something and immediately start nodding her head in agreement. It's like this nod, but her eyes are like a little bit squinchy and she's like, yeah. Whatever. And she'll say something, usually very articulate and well thought out.

Really love the things that Gabby has to say. And then she'll say it in preparation for what the person like i'm talking to you i'm like hey kathy you know like this thing and then i'll say it and immediately start agreeing with whatever you're about to say you know it's just like very yeah i feel like people who don't get the kinds of like validation or affirmation that they maybe like wanted or deserved earlier in life go really out of their way to provide it for others like i that's it. This is so much for me to process at nine in the morning. No, but I would still prefer active listeners to someone that's completely dead faced and you don't know what they're thinking or emoting or whatever. You make a good point, though. I think maybe that's what she's doing anyone else like clayton took a few more punches yeah he did and are we gonna talk about i mean this is bigger

picture overarching encompassing all the episodes are we gonna talk about the fact that they've expressed love to multiple people that's what i'm saying and like at this point it's just like they clayton made mistakes we're not reversing course on the mistakes he made he's apologized he recognized that maybe he was insensitive for people's feelings, to people's feelings. And Gabby and Rachel certainly talked about, hey, we don't want to be the horrible person that Clayton was to us last year, was kind of the sentiment. But to your point, Allie, it's like, talk about it all you want. But the criticism I think I had, because there's all these conversations, like, well, you know

what you signed up for? You know it's Fantasy Suites. And I remember, I think I said something to the effect because there's all these conversations. Well, you know what you signed up for? You know it's Fantasy Suites. And I remember, I think I said something to the effect of like, none of that stopped Clayton at any point from sitting down

with any of these women that he liked the most and said, hey, things are about to get heavy. But he liked the most. Yeah. Well, actually,

I didn't even know. I didn't even do that on purpose. But to say, hey, we're about to go into this Fantasy Suites. I just want to know what your expectations are. What are your expectations of me? It's not like Gabby and Rachel did that with any of their men, it seems like.

Certainly nothing that we saw. Those are not things that I feel like people are taught. People have to learn that kind of communication. I agree. But nevertheless, we were still critical of Clayton for not having done that. The way that he communicated it was very poor. Yeah. He just assumed they were on the same page as him or he didn't care.

And to your point, Gabby and Rachel are talking about it. But like, how do they know what these guys think about? It's interesting because they finished their season. And when they were announced as Bachelorettes, they were doing all these interviews of, well, how are you going to be different? And how are you going to approach this? And they made jokes of not fall in love with like everyone like they had these jokes and i totally understand that you don't know what this is until you are the

lead you don't know until you've walked in those shoes and so i'm not blaming them in any way for expressing those feelings or having feelings for multiple people because i think it's super easy to do but i think it would have behooved them to then say, it's interesting to see it from this perspective. And we can maybe better understand Clayton now that we've done this week from this side. Yes. I wanted to see a little bit more empathy.

When I was, I had a lot of frustrations with Andy and Caitlin, you know, from the experience I had being a two-time runner up. And when I was the bachelor, I had a ton more empathy for what they had to go through. They even talked about it with Andy, like when she like popped in and on the show i certainly have talked about with caitlin offline and publicly and like yeah you don't see any of that and yet they are still throwing out the i'm falling in love with you and what the fuck is the difference

i mean i know they make it such a big fucking difference on the show but like when you are aven or eric and tino and these guys i trust me like it feels really fucking profound and it is used as a tool to like get people to advance their feelings and continue to open up so like i'm sorry like rachel is leading someone on for sure i would be curious to i i feel like if you were to get them in on your podcast rachel and gabby would probably both say i don't think yeah i don't think rachel's coming on yeah well um maybe gabby coming on here would say that it's interesting to have that perspective now but for them to start off one of the episodes with them sitting down and still harping over the stuff that happened last

season with Clayton just felt very ill-timed yeah it was just like why are we bringing him up when you're going to fantasy suite why is he still taking punches yeah I do think it was like the lens of being like reminding people about like just how crazy stuff was because I feel like I sometimes forget how insane that was with Clayton when he was like yelling I love you off of balconies like with all three of the way so I kind of get the like it's obviously going to be on their brain and I get them wanting to like mention it in some capacity but I agree that maybe like the light of like in a very like blaming way towards Clayton as opposed to like being like this is a part of the process where it can get really freaking messy yeah now we're there I think Clayton

was way more like boastful about it and definitely a little more sloppy. But I think, and it seems like we're all in agreement, like you can talk about it all you want, but like what they ended up doing wasn't all that much different. And if you're gonna like throw punches this late in the season to some guy

who quite frankly should just be in your rear view mirror at this point, I would think you would do it a lot differently and you would be really empathetic to like the people you're pursuing and you'd be very careful with your words. And the Rachel Avendade triggered me. How so? It triggered me for like for Tino, I guess. I just assumed she's with Tino. And it just seemed like such an insincere conversation on both parts. It was like, these are two people who I couldn't tell if they just like are faking it because it's like we're here and people often in that situation just say what they think they should

say or they mean it and they're just don't know. It was either they, this is a really immature conversation that reminds me of two 17 year olds talking about how much they like each other. I mean, it was just like... Yeah, like before they both go to college. I really, really like you a lot. We're growing and growing. That's what Rachel's done this entire time is she said these kind of like pre-packaged lines that you feel like a bachelorette should say throughout the entire season. When we saw it in Hometowns, we saw it in the dates with Avon.

And I don't really see that with Tino, which may be your point. Yeah, I think with Tino... She feels more authentic with him. She feels like a... Like, it looks like we're seeing this girl who legitimately has a crush on a guy versus her other relationships.

When we see her talking, it almost feels like some sort of element of acting. But what she isn't, obviously, as a bachelorette, she's in a position of power, right? Calculated is way too big of a term. Calculated, but she's almost motherly with the other guys. It feels like maybe elegance is kind of what she's going for, first and foremost.

I think some bachelorettes have almost a first lady energy about them in terms of they're like, I'm dignified and I'm elegant and I'm in control and I'm elegant and like i'm in control and i'm poised and i feel like rachel's is a bachelorette who very much like falls in that genre for sure i think the juxtaposition of having to share the stage with gabby and gabby being very opposite we're very kind of authentic raw and real yeah i feel like you're either first lady or you're cowgirl and gabby's obviously cowgirl and Rachel's first lady. We're bouncing around.

I think this was going to happen this episode because there's so much. But when watching Rachel and Tino, there was friction. They had a real conversation. I really quite liked both Tino and Rachel in that conversation. I thought they both handled it well. I love how Rachel thoughtfully stood her ground and asked some really pointed questions towards Tino about like, hey, I don't know. I love how she said, even at a minimum, Iino about like, hey, like, I don't know, like, I love how she said, you know, even at a minimum, I thought they would just say, hey,

we don't get it. But like, we support you, which that's a valid. I love that she said that. Yeah, that I just want acceptance. Yeah. And I love that Tino is just like, hey, I'm a 27 year old or 28 year old man. At the end of the day, I'm going to choose my life for myself and my parents are gonna get on board. I really enjoyed the entirety of their conversation. But like against the Avon, it was just like, this is such a waste of my time. The juxtaposition of the two was really like pulling teeth. But I mean, her relationship with Tino just seemed much more authentic in general.

But I didn't expect her to actually stand up for herself in that way and like put her or put his dad on blast. I thought Rachel crushed her conversation with Tino because she stood up for herself without like everything she said made sense. She had a right to say it, but she was respectful of, I guess, everyone. Yeah. So it's just I wish she would still be authentic with some of these other people. And like, it's just so obvious when she's being real and when she's being the bachelorette. My only note with her and Tino's conversation is she kept on using words of she's being real and when she's being the bachelorette. My only note with her and Tino's conversation is she kept on using words of she's nervous, she has anxieties, and she used those multiple times, which feels like your body telling you that you have,

there are red flags. Well, it's kind of like in the past, we would see that as the spark, as they say. Spark or butterflies. Butterflies. Now we've learned is maybe you're, you know, inner self saying. you should have that for the first couple weeks but not after that question for you yeah i'm watching it and i'm watching the aven episode and they sure make it seem like there was some sex at the end of the fantasy with her and even who knows we have no idea if there actually was but they certainly lean into it there was the line like he's the full package yeah and she giggled and yeah so it's like dick has been seen or experienced in some capacity yeah there was definitely but who who knows some touchy-feelys yeah otphj minimum now if you're if this conversation is based on the

premise that rachel and tino end up together if you're tino and you're watching this back what's harder for you to watch would it be harder harder for you to watch your now fiance on a date with someone? She clearly, what you have is not even shown. It's like, what is this? Yeah. Like there's nothing here. Now, if Rachel hooks up with Avon, are you more frustrated that she had like a last hurrah with a guy that she clearly doesn't have the same connection with you,

would that be harder for you to accept? Or would it be harder to like see her also falling in love with someone else only to have picked you and say, hey, yeah, I really care for this person. But at the end of the day, you were my person. Like what's harder for you? What would be harder for you to accept? But she loves Tino more. But you get the question? With Avon, we just assume if there was sex, it was just more like, you know, like you're hot. He's clearly an attractive guy. There's some physical chemistry.

I don't see the emotional spark. His family loves her. Yeah, his family loves her. So if you get engaged to Tino, Rachel's like, hey, you know, like hooked up with Avon. And Tino watches it back and just like, you didn't even, you didn't even like the guy. But is that more reassuring than what if Tina was watching it only to watch like a real true connection with that, which would be harder for you to see the connection or know that

they chose to sleep with someone that it didn't even seem like they liked and they slept with them days before you got engaged to them. Both would really hurt. That would be painful. Yeah, it's a tough position. Everyone right now is in an incredible tough position. And this whole episode was everyone trying to not get mad or frustrated, but also being asked to deal with impossible choices that you never get asked to deal with in the real world.

I wonder if she would have done that if tino's hometown had gone perfectly totally boy that makes me feel even worse i mean i hope it wasn't like a if she had no reservations about tino and his family would she have let the relationship and we we say this as if avon is going home but we don't know um but like i mean eventually he's going home no it would that have transpired in the same way had she not had that conflict with tino's family i think it depends on how secure they make you feel because if the partner at present is making me feel super secure then i think it would be more of a, if they were really in love with that person, then I'd be like, okay, well, that's just a testament to the fact that you did your due diligence. You really explored everything and you made a decision that you feel

like fully confident in. Cause I think there's that temptation to be like, but I'm so wonderful. You could never possibly love anyone the way you love me. So it'd be harder for you to know that they hooked up with someone that ultimately there wasn't much of a connection there? Not because I have an issue with them taking like a buzzer shot before monogamy, but because I think it's leading on. I wouldn't like them treating another person that way and like trivializing that other person's feelings

with the implications of like how much it would lead them on. It says a lot about their character. What if there were upfront expectations about like, what if it's like, hey, it's not you. You're hot, I'm hot. Is that realistic in the show? Everything's happened. I also wonder too, it's like hey it's not you you want to yeah is that realistic in the show everything's happened

I also wonder too it's like we're saying there's no connection but we've also acknowledged that we've not seen a ton this season based on the format

so we're like saying we're saying there's no connection but the guys are also saying there's a weird connection we're also basing it off of what we've seen

granted you're right it's an edit we deserve to be wrong. She said like she's falling in love with Avin. So like this might even be like a moot point because it's like

she could be talking to Tino being like, no, you don't understand. I was really into him and I was trying to decipher if he could be the one. Yeah, but if I'm, I'm just saying,

I'm watching it. The reason I ask this question because I'm thinking, what is Tino thinking about all this? Because like I'm watching it being like as a fan, as a viewer, i'm like this relationship is i don't believe anything here i don't believe anything they're saying i don't believe what anything even saying

anything rachel's saying it was like yeah this is great there was just nothing there it was just two people talking doesn't position of date also kind of play into who the lead hooks up with and who they don't because if they put Tino first I don't know that usually the usually the winners go last but I noticed that I think they switched it up this year on purpose because I think they people were catching on it's not always the case but usually it seems like the front runners are the last ones and I think they definitely switched it up this time maybe Jason wasrunner, as Gabby seems to have claimed. But who knows? I think it would be harder. You're right. You make a valid point about I don't want anyone to lead anyone on. At the end of the day, if you wanted one more go of it, I'm not thrilled, not my favorite choice you made, but I'd rather know that your feelings for me were

that much stronger than anyone else. And it would be harder for me to know. I want to know that in eight weeks, it wasn't hard for you because it was hard enough for us to get to this place in eight weeks. It would be harder knowing that you had to struggle with someone else. I mean, there's a different ways to look at it, but I think it would be harder for me. So my question for the room is, it's like, to me, it's pretty, I think Rachel definitely picks Tina out. And I think the conversation that happens is, I said falling in love, but like, you know, and I in this environment, the relationship was advancing. And especially with the rocky stuff with like, your family family i really was trying to explore all my options fully and i did feel a sense of love but like i was in love with you does that is that a good enough answer for you the distinction of like i'm

falling in love with you to even versus i'm in love with you well it's interesting that you say that because we've been critical here of rachel of of being obvious when she's playing the role of the bachelorette and from personal experience and hearing from friends one of the biggest challenges couples have outside of the show is not knowing when to like be a human and be like real about a relationship because like if if you're tino the fuck you know you'd be like you sound like what you what do you sound like you sound like you're you sound like you're talking to me like you're on the show yeah i mean if that's what she said i'd be like like i'm here i'll listen but like what's falling like

it's all semantics jason even though i don't like that whole situation i'd rather him say i i have really strong feelings but i i don't know if in this time frame i can get there i fucking love jason when he kept calling it a bubble and how they don't even actually really know each other outside of the bubble i was like j, ooh. Jason was so real. I mean, we'll get into that. Yeah. You know, I'm sad that Gabby's feelings are hurt about that. And I don't know what she meant by him leading him on.

But yeah, I thought Jason was awesome. Yeah. I got emotional watching him. Maybe it's because Nate made me cry. It was a big day yesterday. By the way, by the way uh spoiler alert i forgot to mention nate oh my god michelle's ex nate olakoya is here on thursday episode drops we recorded yesterday he made you cry he cried then he made me cry i've never made

you cry no you're like 12 times and I've never made you cry? When Nate, he's a 6'8". Nick's obsessed with how hot Nate was. He's hot. If you're looking for a drinking game, take a shot every time Nick compliments Nate's appearance. You'll be drunk. He's a handsome guy.

Natalie's going to get jealous. He cried and I guess something internally was like i'll cry with you man like you know i got emotional anyways jason got me choked up i could just see when when jason talks you know like i what i love about watching gabby and jason talk is that and i think why there's an attraction there and people call it trauma bonding and things like that, but I feel like that oversimplifies. I think there may be a trauma bond with Eric because of what he's going through with his father.

But with Jason, it's really interesting because clearly they're very different people. But Gabby keeps talking how much he sees her in a different way. And when I see Jason, I see someone who, I don't know what happened to him or whatever, but he's been through it somehow. He's very guarded. He's been hurt somehow. And you can tell when he talks, there's this very thoughtful earnesty of like, but he knows he's been hurt, but he's on the path to healing. And he's in therapy and just that working through whatever has hurt him.

You can see that with Gabby as well. And when those, I feel like when she talks to Jason, she feels very safe about the idea of not being okay in the moment, but knowing that I feel a little damaged, I feel a little broken sometimes, but it's okay because i'm working through it i i think she like sees her reflection in jason and that's got to be

such a like a bonding thing especially in bachelor world i i i i hesitate to see like their compatibility outside the world because you look at john yeah they are two very different people who are approaching this situation from very different perspectives he i think has a very high level of self-awareness i don't know that he is completely aware of the whatever hurt he has felt yeah where he has these guards up where he can only see i mean this environment is probably not the most conducive to where he's at in life, but like he has such guards up that I don't know. It just. Yeah. Cause I thought about it too, because when I went in on the show, I went in very skeptical and my guard up, I don't, I don't want to compare anyone's like experiences, but like I had certainly in debt with my own

like heartbreak and, and blindsided and just pain in relationships. So going on The Bachelor, you're like, I don't know. And I just remember for me to do what I did, I had to actively say, fuck it. I had to say- Totally. He's 100% logic-brained at this point. There's no romance behind it.

There's no just leaning in and jumping off the like just leaning in and, you know, jumping off the whatever. Yeah. And Eric was literally and figuratively jumping. And ultimately, it seems like Gabby and Eric, what stopped the relationship was Gabby seeming to be willing to say, yeah, I hear you and all this stuff. But let's just say fuck it. Because, you know, I ultimately for me decided it's fucking it's an engagement whatever like you know not to downplay an engagement but it's not you're not signing papers like you know you can you know there was always these thoughts

you had like you can repropose people have done that like you know whatever just i i chose to be more flexible and jason's just unwilling for whatever reason and he has the right to like clearly what i love i actually i dm'd him last night because he touched me emotionally you know what can't guys just be you guys all criticize us for not opening up or whatever i said i really enjoyed watching this season, and I really appreciate your ability to protect your heart. I just think, you know, like. Did he respond to you?

No. Oh. He probably doesn't. I sent it last night. But, like, yeah, he might have some healing to do, and I would have loved him to have said, fuck it. But, like, more than anything, he seemed like a guy who just, he wanted to protect his heart,

and I think we should, like like give him credit for that. And I'm sorry, I don't know what he said behind closed door or why Gabby feels let on. I tend to believe that emotions were high. mean that the person doesn't feel that from you. He did a lot of things. I'm only saying this because I was in a very similar situation of someone who is very logic-brained, who I felt very emotionally connected to, who was very guarded in saying the things that would escalate a relationship to have that emotional connection, but did all of the things to do that. So I think that she's probably basing it off of his actions and how safe she feels around him versus him actually saying the words, I love you. I believed Jason's feelings towards Gabby more than anyone, as much as anyone else on the show. I actually think he does love her and he's just-

He really cares for her. Yeah. And also keep in mind, we are living in a time now where the, granted, often misused, but the love bomb accusations of people, we're calling out people who are getting a little too ahead of themselves with their feelings and the words that they say and the recklessness with the way they use the L word with people. For getting there in a bubble. Or not even in the bubble, in the real world. Maybe this happened with Jason where he went through a heart breakup and they were a little loose with the word I love you only for feelings

to have changed and it really affected one of the people in the relationship. We don't know. And so these are conversations that are happening all the time in the real world in terms of like, why did you tell me you love me? When people get ahead of themselves. And I always say, listen, whether you define a relationship or whether you're excited, like the less, you know, the more likely things will change. So it doesn't matter if you call each other boyfriend or girlfriend, it doesn't matter if you said, I love you to each other, the less you know about someone, things could change. And when things change and feelings change, it can be really painful to find out that someone who once said, I'm in love with you, no longer feels that way.

And I just think, I don't know what the discourse was about Jason. I feel like though, Jason is like the opposite of a fuck boy. And it's almost harder to get over something like that. Sure. Because you see the potential. Yeah. The potential is such a fuck. I a fuck it potential fucks with you because johnny i i don't think he was a fuck boy per se but i was also like sir there there's so many fantasy suites and you're not sure if you're

ready to commit like okay like i get i get maybe it takes time to make that choice but like i think with johnny it felt a little bit more. He called her the dopest girl. That guy is not ready for a marriage. No, no, no. I wasn't even the dopest girl. The dopest girl I've ever hung with. Yes.

He's young. Which, yeah, he's young, and, like, that's, and it's, like, feels. He's young, and it seems to be inexperienced with love. Right. And so that's very different from Jason, who's, like, 30, who's coming into this, like, cool, calm, and collected. I think where so much of Gabby's pain is coming from is that like in that ambiguity of the like love is uncertain we don't know which way it's gonna fall I think Gabby was

always trying to make it fall on the side of the relationship like not forcing it being honest with herself but like I think the quote that she had at the end where she was saying I'm never reckless with my feelings like I think she was so careful to always make sure and uphold her treatment of others. And I can see why she would feel a little bit underserved when somebody else is, you know, also proceeding with a ton of caution, but maybe falling more on the side of like staying true to themselves and protecting their own emotions. Yeah, totally. like staying true to themselves and protecting their own emotions yeah yeah totally i i'm really curious about what the conversations were in the fantasy suite between jason and gabby because one thing that she said was she was like it's not just that he doesn't want to get engaged to me it's that and then she kind of trailed off and was upset but i was like what he has a wife yeah

no she definitely implies like i have a kid like Nate, and I'm not telling you. No, I feel like you almost watch this season, like he just Heismans her with his feeling. Like he just puts up this emotional guard where she is no longer, whatever she says, it's bouncing back to her. Yeah, it sounds like, you know,

when he sat down and said the, I don't know if I'm ready, and then she, you know, seemingly like she got frustrated by that and then came back and said the, I don't know if I'm ready, and then she seemingly got frustrated by that and then came back. With Gabby, what was really fascinating, there was a lot of like, I'm upset, but all right, I'm going to come back down and talk.

And I loved how you kind of saw the, because that's what happens in all disagreements. There's that instant reaction of frustration and anger, and then hopefully you were able to, okay, let's talk about it. Like work through it. You know,

keep in mind, this is all on camera. You know, we don't usually get in fights and trigger our partners and frustrate our partners, like all on camera. And we get the whole stages of like watching you get frustrated and things like that.

But yeah, it seems like once they went in the room of the fantasy suite, Gabby was just like, we'll talk through it. We'll get off camera. And it seems like once they went in the room, the fantasy suite, Gabby was just like, we'll talk through it, we'll get off camera. And it seems like she tried to push. And Jason, my guess is that she pushed too much for him. And he ended up saying, I can't do this. Like, it's almost like-

There is some level of avoidant in him. Yeah, he must. But I also just want to make sure, I feel like, again, we don't know what he said, but if it's, like, sometimes people, when you say, like, avoidant, like, attachment style, it's almost like, as if it's, like, a problem people have. Maybe it's okay for him to have felt the way he did. We're still talking about this insane Bachelor world, and people had even less time this season than other seasons to get to know people so like i know we always like to be like oh you know what you signed up for shit like that but when it comes to someone like jason who's one of you know a lot of people talked about mental health and therapy but like he was very open about that you know i just want to like

i don't want to shame jason and imply that he did something wrong. It's just maybe two people who in this crazy world couldn't get on the same page. And maybe there was a lot of connections between them. And I, and I, and I see why they have a bond. I think it's, but I don't, I don't think maybe that I didn't, I don't think they're that compatible in the long run. Interesting because I, I look at Gabby's final three and I could see her with lives outside of this situation with all three of them. And that is so rare that I feel like with Jason, he is the prime example. I hate when people say if they wanted to, they would. I hate that phrase so much because I feel like that is a sweeping generalization.

I feel like he is a prime example of when they're ready to, they will. And he was not ready in that situation. If they were outside of this and they had been dating a year or six months or whatever, he might be ready to say, I love you and put that guard down, bring that guard down. Or maybe, you know, two more years, three more years into his therapy journey, he can actually unpack whatever. I mean, this is also speculation, but like why he has a guard up. Yeah, I mean, you make an excellent, but like why he has a guard up.

Yeah. I mean, you make an excellent point because I absolutely agree with you that I could see Gabby with all three for different reasons. When she was out with Johnny, she said something and it made me ask Natalie a question. She said, Johnny gets me better than anyone ever has. And I remember I was like, that's a big deal. And I also think having your partner get, I saw, I was like, Natalie, do you think you feel like you get me?

Because I feel like that's a question that's not often discussed between couples in relationships. We ask all the things, but boy, that seems like a really big deal. If anything you want for a partner that you hope to be with for the rest of your life, getting each other would be kind of a big deal. Yes, but also not disagreeing, but also the whole idea of how the one way to keep a relationship, not fresh, I don't like that phrasing, but is to continue the relation to keep a relationship not fresh i don't like that phrasing but is to continue to get to know one another so isn't it nice when there is that space for mystery and

continued evolution totally right i don't but just defeat to feel understood there's a difference between like you have everything you've learned everything there is to learn about me also like we're constantly growing and changing like in relationships like i understand the algorithm i'm not saying i know every single output and i know every single way that you could be but i understand the way that you go about making decisions so to speak well some people like they date and they're just like i don't get like a common thing that people say is just don't get you yeah you know that happened like truly like my second girlfriend when after we broke up and you know she ended up being my fiance and she did did not but honestly i don't think we ever got each other ever you know and people getting relationships

not getting each other and she gets johnny and there's something about that relationship that clearly you see a side of gabby yeah playfulness these jokes they tell which again like i think gabby needs some like someone like that in her relationship. I don't, if she's with Eric, I don't know. Like Eric seems like a really nice guy. I really enjoyed how he's opened up. I just wonder if maybe Gabby's guy isn't here. Interesting.

You know, in the long run. I saw this on TikTok, but someone said that the sixth love language is understanding. I always say that gift giving is often like feeling understood. Like I think for most people who say gift giving, they're like, I don't want anything fancy. Like I just want someone, I want to feel like understood by the gift someone gives me.

And, but I totally, I feel like it's a different way of understanding. Yeah. You want to feel like you, if you feel like you constantly have to explain yourself by someone is such an important factor in a relationship. And I think Gabby with Johnny makes her feel seen. And as much as he might sound immature, have that fuck boy energy, like she makes it very clear when she's with Johnny, she feels like this level of comfort she doesn't get with anyone else.

Yeah. I mean, just to play devil's advocate, I feel seen by some of my friends, but that doesn't, that's one aspect of a relationship. Oh, I don't think she should end up with Johnny. Yeah. But I just think if I'm Gabby, I would take note of that feeling because I think it's important to her.

A non-negotiable. And, and even though she might have insane chemistry with Jason and or Eric, and maybe Jason also brings out, makes her feel seen and safe in other aspects. You know, I think she might need all of it. And I think she's seeing some of it in some of these guys. And maybe because like Jason and like Jason and Johnny seem so like they're not similar at all. Like maybe Jason has a playful side. No, they're not similar at all i like maybe jason has a playful side no they just haven't

seen it i feel like jason and johnny the balance of the two is eric like he brings out her playful side and he also makes her feel safe he's able to talk about emotional vulnerability like he i think he said i'm looking at my notes but there was a quote that he said on the date. He loves that Gabby is emotionally intelligent and went on about that. But I feel like he is the blend of the two. And the fact, I know people are going to rip him apart for coming back and saying that, I don't think he was slut shaming her in any way. I can't imagine you doing the same thing that we did with other people i don't i don't think a lot of people liked him saying that but i also think that he

felt comfortable enough to express to his partner a place where he felt insecure and i don't know no i yeah let's let's talk about that for a second because i i mean there's just such like there is i think we should name the statement of eric's like which is that the thing that they talked about behind closed doors and fantasy suites and that was later brought up on camera was eric's feeling that this week to him felt like cheating he didn't say you are cheating but he was saying that like by going to fantasy suites with other people that feels like cheating i feel like that's like yeah contact was she more i that was actually said we know that for sure okay was she also more upset that he brought it up on camera than him having those feelings yeah because chief said like you know we talked about this we we discussed it we reached

like a conclusion yeah and honestly that would raise red flags for me too regardless of what the conversation was i don't care if it's about like talking about your cat why do you have to bring it back up on camera? It makes me question like, are you doing this for an edit? Are you here for the right reasons? Like, well, just. But then conversely,

it's like, but if you, you want to feel like your partner is bringing stuff up with you. I see both sides. Yeah, there really is a two sided thing. It's like being like, I need to update you

because I said this one thing and it was honest in the moment. But now I'm in this different place and I really want us to like communicate about where I'm at now. I didn't even feel like it was an update though let me just as someone who's lived through that experience paint the picture of what these people are going through during the week of fantasy suites eric seemingly got the first one right i was a recipient of two of the first ones and even if you're first or last, it doesn't really matter. You know that fantasy sweets weeks is going on. And almost always they avoid, as opposed to having upfront

expectations and maybe talking about this insane week that's about to happen, people go out of their way to make sure people are avoid having any of these conversations so that people can internalize their fears about what this all means yeah so you know whatever eric and gabby talked about and whatever happened who knows but like again like you know these are normal feelings most people who go on the show aren't swingers aren't in polyamorous relationships they are looking for monogamous relationships and committed relationships and they're also have so you go in there, you start on a season of like, I don't know,

I'm here for the show. I'm not sure how I'm gonna, if I'm gonna fall for someone. And then a handful of people go, oh my God, I'm falling in love with this person. They start developing real feelings. And they get the fantasy suite week. And then it's just like, hey, by the way, I'm gonna spend the night with like two other people. And you're just like, all right, cool.

Like, I know this is part of the show. So like, okay, but like, and then keep in mind at the end of, by this time, by this time in the season, everyone is being, everyone feels and is being told for the most part, if you're being authentic, that your relationship is stronger than everyone else's. So at this point you're thinking,

all right, like they're just gonna have to go through the motions, but like this is gonna be special for us. And then, so let's say you have the fantasy suite week and then there's a day off and then there's another fantasy suite. Then another day off, there's a fantasy suite. So you have a whole,

whole week to do nothing, but think about what the other person is doing. And the, the only conversation you have are with producers who are like asking you what you think is happening. You know, you're constantly being fucked with. You're constantly being like asked, You're constantly being asked, what do

you think is going on? And all I'm saying is for these people to not pitch a perfect game or handle it perfectly or want to maybe talk through things, what is a relationship if not to be able to check in with your partner to say, I know we talked about this, but hey, I'm struggling. And Eric isn't afforded off-camera time. He doesn't get to choose whether something is recorded or not. So like, you know, let's just be careful, like not to like criticize any of these people. I just like, I love that. Ultimately, I like that Eric and Gabby seem to have respectful conversations. They both seem to, you know, in the moment, even Gabby, at first,

I thought for a moment, Gabby, when she said, I've worked so hard to make sure that I'm 100% certain at the end. And I was like, yeah, I get that. But like in that moment, all I thought was like, you're not in any way thinking about what it's like to be in Eric's shoes. Having been through in Eric's shoes. She later, I think it was, she was talking to Jesse and she recognized, I loved it. Gabby was just like, I haven't put myself in Eric's shoes. And then they worked through it. And like, I loved how they worked through that whole thing. I mean, like, yeah, like that's a relationship. Like, you know, they, they had to work through these, these very difficult situations that neither of them are experienced. I mean, Gabby a little bit because she experienced with Clayton, but I, you know, I love that we got to see that. And ultimately, it seemed like they worked through it in a relatively healthy way. And we're able to say,

like, I'm struggling here. I don't know how to say this, but this is how I feel. I hope that's okay. I don't want to make you feel bad, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know. I mean, I agree. I feel like there are people who are going to say that that conversation was a red flag but i also feel like as much as i love gabby that was the first time i saw her this entire season it looked like she was invalidating his feelings at some in some capacity saying you are not right for bringing this to me in this moment when they don't have another opportunity to be off camera before i mean, they do get one more date together, but he's proposing to her in a week. Yeah, he's got no time.

And he might have what he probably was like, I'm just struggling. I'm just struggling. And probably someone was like, well, would you like to talk to her if we could set that if we can make that happen? And he probably said, yes, you know, it's just like these people, I just, I, I understand why people on the internet might like be quick to say, oh, that's a red flag. But like, trust me, like when you look at the whole landscape, like all Eric did was calmly try to communicate a feeling. from my standpoint, seemed to acknowledge that he tried to do it without making her feel like he was criticizing her. Obviously, he didn't do that perfectly. Sometimes we, like every time we're in a relationship and you say, I feel this way, it's very easy for your partner to feel accused, even though that's what you don't want to do. But we get sensitive because you care about

your partner. You're like, well, I made you feel that way and I feel bad. And then you get defensive. I'm like, that's a fucking relationship. His intentions were good behind it. He even said multiple times, even if it wasn't communicated in the best way possible, he's like, I want this to be positive. I want this to be a positive conversation. I thought it was ultimately really positive. And honestly, I think if those two can communicate like that in their relationship, if they are in one, good for them.

I think they have a chance of working out because. The one red flag I had with Eric was I think when they were on their one-on-one date, he said that he was nervous. And she said, oh, are you going to run? And he goes, yeah, I'm going to walk right out and then I'm going to walk all the way back to New Jersey. And I get it was a joke, but like that would give me pause. Yeah. I mean, shoot. I think everything should give everyone pause in this world.

I mean, they have, you know, you're just like, you know, when I was going through it, like I was, you know, pretty much pot committed to Vanessa. But a couple of things happened that I was like, this gives me pause. I just chose to ignore it because I was just like, well, I, I feel how I feel. And like, I don't know what to do, but these are, these people are put in impossible situations. And I know like, you know, for dramatic effect, it's fun to watch, but like, let's be careful not to like call them red flags when ultimately what i actually think we're seeing is like pretty like mature emotional maturity and communication that like you know people are watching it and you see this fight and they run to twitter and they start saying oh this is fucked up and then like five minutes commercial break happens comes

back and gabby's like you know what i could have empathized with him a little bit better you're like oh yeah i guess so yeah I guess so. Yeah, I guess so. And then they work it out. And then all of a sudden, but the tweet's still up. I know. Maybe we want to cover more stuff on Gabby. I just want to put out there. I feel like I want to discuss the Zach, Rachel blow up towards the end.

Raise of hands in the room. We kind of, without knowing what happened, we all understood what Zach was trying to say. Like we, we believed him. I don't. Are we supposed to raise our hands? Oh, sorry. Sorry.

Raise our hand. Okay. Like, it's just like, yeah, that's right. It's like that tracks. I can see that Rachel,

I can see Rachel being insincere because at this point she's, she's going to pick Tino. Yeah. And she's been leaning Zach on the whole time. He's been her fluffer. And she tried to soft break up with him in the fantasy suite. Also that conversation with them over breakfast

where she was like, how are you feeling about everything we've talked about? Oh, that was brutal. Everything feels like a scene. Like it was so, I was like. She pecked him twice. I know. And I was just like clenched the entire time.

Natalie would call those Phyllis kisses. Oh, is it your grandma? Your grandma. Okay. She gave him Phyllis kisses. I agree. And I? Your grandma. Okay. She gave him Phyllis kisses. I agree. And I definitely, I believe that there is that component. The one thing is that it kind of rubs me the wrong way when someone says they weren't themselves.

Like it kind of, I'm not saying it's completely incorrect, but it does rub me the wrong way when someone tries to take ownership of like who the other person is and saying because their perception doesn't account for the version that they got that they were being like dishonest or not true to their self i just feel like that's a lot of that's fair and say i feel like you're not being the most authentic version of yourself in this moment or any i think he i think he even further articulated this later on is that rachel wasn't the person that she had been presenting to him the whole time up into this point and behind closed doors he saw a very different version of her than what was presented that's how i read it and maybe this is just like a technicality but i feel like it's well it's not that those are two different

people it's that this person who you felt the whole time also has the capacity to behave in this way and maybe it's recontextualizing the way you interpret all that other elements of their personality that was there before but like it's expansive likeextualizing the way you interpret all that other elements of their personality that was there before. But like it's expansive. Like you're continuing to get to know them. It's not like one or the other. You're implying that maybe Zach wasn't paying attention. And that's possible. But I think what's more likely, what we've seen from Rachel and her ability to kind of like go in this bachelorette role.

Like Rachel with Tino is a completely different version than Rachel with anyone else. Right. And Zach hasn't seen that yet because Zach doesn't get to see her with Tino. Right. But the Rachel who's going to pick Tino is the Rachel that went into the fantasy suite room with Zach. And my guess is, is that, you know, my guess is Rachel was like, I don't, you're my third, I don't know what happened with Avon, you know, but like, you're my third fantasy suite. She mentally, and I empathize with Rachel.

She mentally is like, she's ready to, after this conversation with Tino, that probably was heavy. She was probably worried about it. Who knows what happened with Avon? Maybe it was because that conversation with her parents didn't go well. She reconnected with Tino, had a great conversation, had an conversation had an amazing fantasy oxytocin was off the charts and now she's just like well fuck i gotta i gotta let this guy down you know and so instead of like hooking up or like talking about the future well you know normally what someone would do in that situation if they realize they're they're

dating multiple people and they really like someone else and they're going to choose that person as they start pulling away but you are now forced to go on this romantic date where then you are asked if you want to have an overnight portion, and fulfilling her bachelorette duties, she is going to say yes to all of that. Yeah, I mean, I'm guessing if Rachel was given, I'm guessing if Rachel,

guessing Rachel probably wouldn't even want to have gone into the fantasy suite with Zach, but maybe that particular choice wasn't totally hers in that moment. Think about it. He was like, all of a sudden she's like talking about my age. Because it sounds like the way Zach described it. Yeah. Is that she went in there, again, like, I'm going to pick Tino.

But instead of just like keeping it real and saying my feelings aren't there, she tried to make it seem are you really ready yeah she's like i'm gonna plant the seeds for the things i'm gonna use in our breakup yeah exactly which is kind of fucked up and shitty and his emotional maturity i feel like through the roof yes also i loved when he was having the conversation with jesse palmer and even jesse was like and she's 26 like months older yeah but it's giving like older sibling by one year you don't get to sit at the adults table it is manipulative if that's what she did conversely so do we how are we counting out the idea that maybe these were concerns that she was like huh i guess if we're just now's the point where we kind of lay it out on the table these are the things the final things that could possibly go wrong if we're in that final level of like vetting a partner what do you mean like

could it be the kind of thing where she was like okay like i've been really focusing on this journey i've been falling in love with like is there any chance that these were things that like arose that these were concerns that arose organically in the moment now that things are getting more serious as opposed to anything's possible sure but i doubt it based off of like what we saw from zach because zach seems like to be a pretty well thought out guy who seems emotionally pretty mature i mean he's young but he seems to have gone through it and done the work you know like he seems to be the same age in his same age as johnny but emotionally they seem like i'm very different playing fields from what we've got to see and zach's whole thing was it just none of it made

sense like bring up my age i bet zach i bet like, all right, let's talk about age. But like it sure sounds like Rachel was like had decided this was going to be the excuse and just wouldn't budge. So no matter what, not to use another buzzword, I bet Zach felt stonewalled. I was going to say he felt emotionally slighted. Yeah. Because she probably went in there and been, oh, hey, by the way, are you really ready? You're too young. And Zach's thinking, well, first of all, you're like two months older than me. Second of all, like, I'm 25. This is also out of nowhere. You've known my age since.

I'm not 13. I'm 25. Yeah. You know, like, I'm a quarter century old and I might not be 30, but like, yeah, I am ready. I just wish he'd given more examples. And I get that it's really hard when you're in a fight to like record stuff down word for word. But I, because he just kept saying she wasn't herself. She wasn't herself. She wasn't herself.

And I was really curious, like more of like what he meant by that. I hope we get that in the after the final rose. I'm wondering if it's like he wasn't if it was just like because I hear your point of like him him having the right to say like what's her and what's not like. I feel like maybe he was just trying to put into words and he kind of did a little bit of just like she was not the same Rachel than who he'd seen before. Yeah. I felt like, yeah, I felt like maybe there was a level of sincerity or that he'd felt an amount of all in with her that he then felt a pullback of. I think he used the word fake. Yeah. He said it was the most inauthentic conversation I've ever had.

Inauthentic. Yeah. I'm like, what was, what was being said in this conversation? You also have to keep in mind that Zach up to this point has been like falling in love with her. Yeah.

You know, these movies, their dates, the airplanes. And Rachel's been really present and connected with Zach up to this point. Like, obviously, we had the benefit of watching her with Tino. Zach doesn't get that benefit. But she's still like, she was still pretty engaged with Zach. And he's been falling in love. But the morning after was so awkward.

That's what I'm saying. But I'm saying Rachel was in it enough. I think Rachel let him on. I don't fault her for it. That's unfortunately part of the role. But like, I think instead of just owning that, instead of just trying to like keep it real with Zach behind closed doors,

I think she tried to make him feel like it was something wrong with him. And rather than a decision, rather than just maybe she just likes Tino more. She tried to make him feel bad for something that he couldn't control because she just has stronger feelings for some other guy, which I think is kind of shitty. I hear that. And it's not that I disagree. I just think, and you're going to, you might roll your eyes but i think in general i think maybe also don't know we don't know we don't know i think in general maybe women feel slightly more pressure to manage not just like communicating what they want to say but to manage the emotional

reaction of other people both from a place of like if it's bad it's a safety thing like kind of need to kind of need to know how my words might hit someone. And I think like in general, like, you know, like the thing about how women are sometimes socialized to be more like conversationally accommodating or made to feel a little bit more responsible for a partner's emotions. And so I wonder in terms of leading him on if it's a fine line of trying to like walk this tightrope of i don't want to be dishonest with you but i also don't want to be harsh i want to be kind i want to she was a little harsh though that's what i'm saying i don't have a problem with her leading him on the bachelor the leads have to do that it sucks i fucking hated it it like hurt my heart like i hated hometown like fantasy i i've had i've

had i had neck problems for two weeks because of the stress i got from fantasy suites i'm trying to navigate i've i have total empathy for rachel how she went about handling it and letting zach know and making him feel like it was something that was his fault or like a shortcoming that he had when at the end of the day it sure seems like she just likes tino more yeah i think that was kind of shitty i'm'm not saying it's okay. I just think I can kind of empathize a little bit with why she might be drawn for that route as opposed to just like the cold, harsh, like, I like someone more than you. They're like, well, it's just because you're like, you know, trying to make it about these other external factors as a means of letting them down.

I don't think it's a necessarily emotionally mature, but I think it's like understandable. Of course, it's all understandable. This is an insane world these people are put in. And just back to what we said before, if nothing else, maybe Rachel will have more empathy for Clayton. Not that Clayton shouldn't still have to apologize for his actions and learn from it. But even Clayton, like, you know, I love we all watch it and all this, like go through it, go through it and try to like work through this impossible situation on camera and so i don't fault rachel i just hope that rachel recognizes it and and and and has um some empathy for zach and some is contrite and apologetic for how she handled it rather than doubles down

and and still tries to make him feel bad for something that is bullshit. We're asking Zach to be more specific, but I feel like Rachel has not been specific this entire season. Even in hometowns, the families are asking what she loves about someone. She's like, oh, I love how caring they are. Yeah, there's a lack of specificity on her end so so to say someone's 25 if she had actually said oh well i think that this aspect about you is a little bit immature and i wonder if you are ready for x y and z which i am ready for that's a very good point that i could her like totally hear her in that behind closed doors being like, I just have to follow my heart in this journey.

It's the way in which she told him the morning and I like can't I'm struggling for the words the way that she was talking to him and saying like, so like you're good with what we talked about. Like there was clearly it was kind of like this keep it hush hush. about like there was clearly it was kind of like this keep it hush hush but like we all know that like i and again this is me projecting on the bus and like over interpreting because we really don't know but it was just the tone in which and the eye contact in which she made that with him and i was like what the fuck did they i want her to read some bernie brown of like i feel like the the her or i'm not saying her but like when when someone's level of like emotional awareness is like angry, happy and sad when there are a multitude of emotions that you can experience, shame, vulnerability, like all of these things that that Brene talks about. There's like 61 different emotions that anyone can be feeling at a certain time. And I feel like the having the verbiage to

actually express that is so helpful when it comes to relationships yeah and you see it you see it with gabby over time and time again and in terms of her ability to like put into words what she's feeling yeah or just and empathize yeah you know again not in the moment exactly because like i think that going back to the eric thing was a perfect example of first gabby reacted to what she was feeling and she felt obviously she she reacted to what eric said she you know because you know she probably she did work really hard and she probably and then eric said the very thing she he eric said the very thing and she was hoping he wouldn't say but like i said she thought it through and then still recognized okay i there is another side and that

is eric's side and i even though my feelings are valid so are his and i'm like wow that was just like good for you gabby you know yeah and and maybe we'll see that from rachel you know this we got a cliffhanger with zach we don't even know what they're going to talk about. Maybe maybe maybe Rachel will acknowledge that. I'm really curious how she she handles that. handle it well her like positioning as like a good wonderful bachelorette is in any way threatened by what he says i'm just like hold on to your hat yeah i know well i hope it's the former i think it's going to be the latter and a lot we'll have to do of how zach handles it but like zach has been nothing but a respectful king up into this point and very careful with his words so i hope he continues that but we shall see but you're. I think it's possible that Zach very calmly and nicely, but still like stands his ground and says,

yeah, like I just felt really inauthentic and just felt like you weren't being real with me and it felt like I saw a different side. And that alone, I think could make Rachel react in a way that, well, might be fun to watch on TV. But it's also, and then you have Tino who's, there was one quote from Tino that I thought was so indicative of where he's at he's like she's future mrs forever and i was like yeah that's how you see her so i'm like

zach you mean sorry yeah the way tino talks about rachel but zach said the future mrs no no no that was tino i know there's a lot going on well he's zach for the overnight was like tomorrow i went looking forward to being even more in love with the future Mrs. Blank. And nothing that happens tonight is going to change that. Zach said his last name. Tino said future Mrs. Forever, which I thought was such an awesome phrase for when you're so head over heels for someone. Tino kind of annoys me, though. He's getting on my nerves.

Yeah, I see it. My fantasy suite couldn't have gone any better. Like, okay. He's getting on my nerves. Yeah, I see it. My fantasy suite couldn't have gone any better. Like, okay. He's a bro. He's got sides that you're like, not my type. Wish them the best. He seems overall solid, I guess.

I do feel like they match each other in where they're at. It's that intangible thing. There's something about Tino and Rachel's outlook that just feels like it meshes really off. If they end up together at all, I think they could have some tough conversations. I was going to say it will all stem from how they communicate through hardships coming out of the show.

Knowing what couples have to face, I have some reluctance on their ability to effectively work through them. have some reluctance on their ability to effectively work through them. Seems like the foundation for Gabby and Eric's communication is so much more established at this point than Rachel with any of her guys. I think sometimes, certainly with Gabby, and also just like we got a lot more context about Gabby's story. And just, you know, obviously the heart goes out to her like in terms of full landscape of her relationship with her mother. She finally like opened up.

Like I don't think we got that context in terms of. I think she shared it on Clayton's season but I don't, maybe. With the specificity

of like her dad being in the army and her mom being gone and like raising herself and like kind of feeling like she had to like be different people to like get validation

and love. I mean, I don't, maybe she did but. Maybe it was more of an illusion before certainly like i was well i mean that's not that's not easy yeah i loved her little speech to to eric i thought it was yeah but i think you know and then eric obviously what's going through what he's going through with his dad i think you have two people who can like fall

in love and have this intensity but still see like the bigger picture outside of this world where like, I could see how Rachel and Tina through no fault of their own, you know, like charmed privileged lives, not a, not a bunch of worries going on right now. Certainly not like death or the fear of abandonment that, and all they have to focus on is this,

this literal fairy tale. And they can have a tendency in those people can have a tendency of making a bigger deal about smaller things rather than people who have a level of perspective about like real loss and real kind of emotional trauma. And I think you kind of see that juxtaposition between Eric and Gabby and Rachel and Tino. Every time when they do a reality TV show and they go on a horse date and one of them gets the misbehaved horse. I love it. It works for me every single time.

Never not funny. Watching like some man on a horse that's like, oh, he's going into the bushes. When, when Jesse told Rachel that she was the only bachelorette here,

did anyone, like first there was like, yes, for a second there was concern. Yeah. Just like a split second and then it was like, finally, I'm the only Bachelorette.

Do you need me to do some more ITMs? Yeah. You need some more shots of me walking in? Rachel was on cloud nine. She's like, she's not dead, right? Okay, fine. This is amazing. Without saying anything, you could see it in her eyes.

Glowing. But also, with the lack of context he gave her like for all we know like she could have thought like oh no she's just doing her rose ceremony like in a different bush like yeah you're on here in a different bush you know it's all wooded i mean i get it it was a weird way that he told her too like he didn't explain anything about her her position whatsoever the less you know, the more you worry. Yeah. Jesse.

Also, can we talk about Jesse's little thing at the end? At the end of that spiel. Where he was just doing his job. It was like the drone coming in. Oh my God, it was so dramatic. It actually felt more dramatic than other teasers that they've had in the past. It got me hooked.

Something about whoever said to do it on the lot was brilliant. Something about the set. The set that was like in shambles before they set up. Yeah, darkness. it got me hooked something about it was whoever said to do it on the lot yeah brilliant something about the set the set that was like in shambles yeah it's like you're seeing behind the curtain he's like we were gonna show you but you need time to prepare like they gave the impression that like we had like clearly months have gone by since the end yeah but they're they shot it in a way that was just like we have to do this because the only way to give you this full story is to have two lives. And I have to tell you this now. And boy, we didn't even have time to set up the stage.

We're just about to start. I would be so disappointed if it's the same old, same old. I know. But he delivered it in a way of like, Zach had pulled Rachel. They went down to the beach to talk. A shark came aboard, bit off his arm, and it was super bloody.

And they realized it was a bit too triggering so they needed to rework it like that's how he delivered this message in my mind i thought he did a great job i think he's phenomenal i just wish you were caitlin for bachelorette that's my i was a little skeptical of and i think i said it last season of him being host i was a little skeptical about him stepping into this role. I do really enjoy him, but I enjoy him more in his authentic moments than him as a host where he's doing the robotic arm movements. I'm in a suit and I'm reading off a teleprompter. I'm basing this on the fact that this is what ABC wants to do and this is the show that they have. And for that

role, I think he's doing a great job. And had been caitlin it would be different if i had that opportunity i would want to do it slightly different than jesse but at the same time all i'm saying is like he's a likable guy and i think he's doing his job and he commands a presence i got no issue with jesse i enjoy him as the host you know we sometimes make the mistake and you know with chris harrison you know he was the host from the beginning of the show and i think when a lot of people watched it they saw him as like the spokesperson or even or the decision maker or the person who casted the bachelor he was the host you know was a new producer as well though it didn't feel like he was the host he felt like he was the chris harrison yeah like the chris harrison of the world who sometimes comes out and tells me what's gonna happen i think chris got

producer credit but like chris definitely was never in any of those decisions for anything. And neither is Jesse. Neither was Caitlin and neither would have been anyone. That's not the job. It's the host. They're the spokesperson. So they kind of relay the message that the decisions makers have. But I think the expectation, it's more understood with Jesse, but with Chris, it was like But I think the expectation, it's more understood with Jesse. But with Chris, it was like he was there from the beginning. And Chris kind of talked as if he was that person and with that level of authority. But that's just not the reality of the situation.

Okay. So with the intensity that Jesse delivered this news, do we think that one of Gabby's guys is going to try to make contact with her like that that left do we think that it's just this Zach situation do we think what do we think if I'm a producer I am definitely keeping in tabs with Jason and checking in and seeing because it clearly seemed to be a real strong connection there and I don't know what was talked about but I'm I'm working that angle for sure we don't know how this conversation with Zach and Rachel go there's a yeah there's a lot of possibilities of has an engagement happened and then already ended like there are so many and I'm trying to think of like in terms of teasers the shots we haven't seen we've seen a shot of each of them at what

looks to be their final rose ceremony with just one rose left yeah we have seen johnny already on a beach yeah but we've also seen a clip of rachel in a short black dress sobbing and walking away so we haven't seen her in that outfit yet i mean who knows that literally came in from week two but definitely could have been from week two also that you that reminded me of something uh just to kind of speak about how last night we were i was watching with natalie and there was a scene where it had to do with like tino no yeah it was rachel was like on a date with aven right and you know how on the date they were showing the date with aven and they'd keep cutting the tino like worrying right and you know as often people do when you watch a show like you're on your phone half paying attention attention. Natalie was just, you know.

And granted, Natalie has only been watching The Bachelor since she's been dating me. So she's gotten into it, which is, I think, how most people watch it. And she looked up and she goes, wait, Tina, he can't actually see them, right? I'm like, no. No.

But just the fact that she, while on her phone casually watching the show, even wondered if that was even possible. It made me realize, yeah, that's how people watch this fucking show. When I often get wondered why people get so fucking triggered or freak out. And when someone does some little thing, the audience is like, how dare you? How could you? Unbelievable.

I said to Natalie, I'm like, honestly, like that was probably like a different day. Yeah. You know? But they played that up with Eric too, when she was doing the pool, when she was in the pool with Jason and like, they like took her like laughter and the splashing of the pool and put it over him on the balcony, like staring out,

doing like his best Greg Grippo impression. Yes. And I was like, they're really playing into it. Also, I really appreciate how Zach does B-roll. When you're in Fantasy Suite, the final three or final,

like when you're not on dates, you're doing B-roll, right? It's all these like contemplation shots. When you move into your hotel room, you'll like, you'll have like, there'll be a camera guy and a producer

and you're like walking in to, you know, your room and looking at the room. And I watched Zach just, he's like, you could tell they gave him a beat he walked in room pause take a breath like literally and zach did all the beats and i'm just like he goes and like without saying anything we thought what a great room you know zach is just fully in character i just thought it was really endearing

we also don't realize how much the music that they put underneath Zach is just fully in character. I just thought it was really endearing. So stoic. We also don't realize how much the music that they put underneath certain dates and certain conversations affects our reality. Because if you were to watch this with no music underneath, there's no suspenseful music. There's no romantic music. It would change the entire context of certain conversations. Because there was no music with Rachel and Zach the morning after and that's why we were like it's so freaking awkward. And then the shot of their hands like limply holding

each other. If they would have played ominous like villainous music when Rachel told Avon that she was falling in love with them you would have immediately thought of Clayton. That made me scared. The music would tell you this isn't okay. And that's all like the music more than anything is the most triggering thing.

It's the biggest weapon the show has is the music they play because the music tells you how they want you to feel. How to feel about a person. How to feel about a situation or a person. Final thoughts. Jason was so hot playing tennis. Final thought is we need to address that. I think it is so hot when you watch someone who was like,

used to be good at a sport do it again. It was also very triggering because the first guy I dated in LA was teaching me how to play tennis. And I just thought

we had to acknowledge how hot Jason was in his element. Yeah. I also wanted to acknowledge how many boat dates there were considering they were just in a boat

for weeks on end. Also, they went back to the Vedanta. They went back to Puerto Vallarta where they shoot Paradise, right? Oh. They're in Riviera Maya. Oh, is the Vedanta, maybe it's just the chain of, oh, they have more.

It's in One Beach Cinema. Well, the Vedanta must be in different parts of Mexico. I'm not an expert. Because the Vedanta is the hotel, it's the staging hotel for Paradise, which is in Puerto Vallarta, but so they're in Playa de Carmen, which actually is my favorite part of Mexico. You just said, who said that? I said Riviera Maya. Riviera Maya, oh. Wow, too many they're in Puerto Carmen, which actually is my favorite part of Mexico. You just said, who said that? I said Riviera Maya. Riviera Maya, oh.

Wow, too many gorgeous places in Mexico to be in Mexico. Shout out to Mexico. I guess predictions. I predict that Gabby is with Eric. I think everybody

should really take a stab at the crazy plot twist. Everybody should try to come up with some really insane plot twist. I think the craziness is the meeting, I mean, I think the craziness is the meeting, I mean, I think we've already met

them, but like Rachel and or Gabby's families meeting the guys. Yeah. That there might be something spicy there. What if they bring Tino's parents back? They're only in the Riviera Maya. That's a short plane ride. That shit matters. Yeah, like I was in Finland. And if there

was like drama with parents it's like i don't know we were willing to fly someone else's parents to finland for something we might not use but down to cancun tino's dad pulls a reverse barb and he's like let her go they've done that before they've done it before not aired it i think they did it with jojo's family or bringing tino's family onto the live finale special. That would, similar to... Good call. Oh my God, imagine Rachel's dad and Tino's dad. Like, just like, staring hot death at each other.

I think Tino's dad is going to do exactly what Tino suggested, which is... Which is also like, again... Come around. Tino's parents were normal. It is a crazy situation. They were like, hey, this is nuts. They were the most real out of most parents. They were real, but they were unwelcoming. Yeah. were the most real out of they were real but

they were unwelcoming yeah sure but i'm just saying they're not bad people after filming i think it's more believable that tina's like hey i love this girl just you know like just i don't know what's gonna happen yeah i took a risk we'll see but she's great so like and also she picked me everything she was saying to you was true like she picked me so like let's let's get on board and i I imagine his parents will, I wouldn't be shocked if I see them. I don't know if that's really the drama is going to come from. I don't know.

I hear there's going to be some juice. I don't know. So we'll see. Can't wait. I know. The most exciting episode of this entire season. I hope it's not upsetting the way Jesse was like emotionally prepare yourself. I'm sure he was just doing that for suspense,

but a little part of me was like, oh no. Like if someone hurts, like if Gabby gets hurt, I'm going to lose it. I said this last week. Someone told me, and I don't know what, but they said, well, after what Rachel did. And I don't know what that means. I have no context other than that. She ate a rose at the rose ceremony. It might be that, but it was from someone who wasn't like trying to sell me on anything.

It was just more of like an honest statement of like, well, I don't think I was like, okay. So I don't know what that is. And maybe it's nothing, you know, and maybe that person could just be like, thinks it's a big deal. This person doesn't know also how things are going to air. It's not a producer. I'm intrigued. Follow Jesse's advice, which was take some time, get yourselves ready, and prepare yourselves. Also, I like that we've become numb to Jesse's unhinged CTAs.

Like where he's like, dump his ass. All your friends hate your boyfriend. Your boyfriend's probably cheating on you. Your boyfriend's apartment probably has termites, so you should get out of there. I kind of like it. Yeah, I'm on board. Makes you listen versus the old ones where you're like, oh, yes. And honestly, it might be the difference between someone putting in an application and someone not. You're like, oh, fuck this guy.

You're like, my boyfriend's apartment does have termites. Kathy, as always, an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Always fun to come in. Always good to have you for the meaty, lots of breakdown episodes. Please let my audience know where they can find you. Enjoy your content.

Update them on all your projects you're working on. Yes. You can find me on Instagram at Kathy Kelly, on TikTok at itskathykelly. And I do have some announcements coming soon so I'll have to come back when I get them. Alright we'll come back when you do that. We have a whole season of Paradise coming which you will be invited to recap. A beautiful shit show

I hope. Oh I hear it's a mess. Oh good. I hear it's a mess. Thanks for listening guys. Don't forget Nate is with us on Thursday and the update episode that you've all been waiting for, All Things Ask Nick, Talks in Office Hours,

our Ask Nick updates, that will be on Friday. So four episodes for you this week. Be sure to tune them in. The Nate one, like I said, he made me cry. What a guy. It's a hell of an episode.

A hell of an episode. Can't wait for you guys to hear it. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of discourse. After. Bye. Bye. We'll be right back. and both work out with tons of equipment in the Judgment Free Zone. Relax in the Black Card Spa and more. Work out and perk out with the Planet Fitness Black Card. Get started for zero down and $29.99 a month, plus $49 annual fee.

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