The Viall Files - E471 Going Deeper with Nayte Olukoya: “I’m Not A F*ckboy”

Episode Date: September 8, 2022

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files, Going Deeper Edition! Today we have a very exciting episode where we are joined by Nayte Olukoya of Bach Nation, where he tells all regarding his shocking breakup with Michelle Young. To kick things off, we dive into some pop culture topics, such as breaking down the controversy of “Spitgate” where it is alleged that Harry Styles spat on Chris Pine during the Venice Film Festival showing of the upcoming movie, Don’t Worry Darling. Was this just two friends messing around or is this something deeper? We also talk about the newest TikTok from Emily Ratajkowski joking that she prefers “ugly men” amid her split from her cheating husband Sebastian Bear-McClard, and we then dive into talking about the difference between hot ugly and ugly hot. After the pop culture, we get into our interview with Nayte, where he talks about the events that lead to the breakup, how they broke up over the phone, and how the pressures of social media affected their personal lives. We also talk about why Michelle blocked Nayte, how Nayte plans to heal, and how Nayte broke up with someone different from who he fell in love with. We get emotional while laying everything out, so tune in for this very special interview. After the interview, we bring in one of our Texting Office Hours callers, who needs help with her boyfriend that isn’t acting like someone with a label should.  “Breakups suck and you gotta do what you gotta do!”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  If you would like to get some advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Office Hours” in the subject line!  Be sure to check out my sports radio show Fandemonium, Wednesdays @ 3PT / 6 ET  on Amazon's Amp app.  Click the link to download Amp using my code NICKVIALL https://apps.apple.com/us/app/amp-host-live-radio-shows/id1586403838 Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: DraftKings: Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app NOW and use promo code VIALL to get TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS in FREE bets INSTANTLY when you place a five-dollar bet this Sunday! That’s code VIALL—only at DraftKings Sportsbook—an Official Sports Betting Partner of the NFL. Minimum age and eligibility restrictions apply. See show notes for details. Care/Of: For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to http://www.TakeCareOf.com and enter code viall50. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @kingbabatunde If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL/IN/LA/MI/NJ/PA/WV/WY), 1-800-NEXT STEP (AZ), 1-800-522-4700 (CO/NH), 888-789-7777/visit http://ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-BETS OFF (IA), 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY), visit OPGR.org (OR), call/text TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN), or 1-888-532-3500 (VA). 21+ (18+ NH/WY). Physically present in AZ/CO/CT/IL/IN/IA/LA(select parishes)/MI/NH/NJ/ NY/OR/PA/TN/VA/WV/WY only. New customer offer void in NH/OR/ONT-CA. $200 in Free bets: New customers only. Valid 1 per new customer. Min. $5 deposit. Min $5 wager. $200 issued as eight (8) $25 free bets. Ends 9/19/22 @ 8pm. Early Win: 1 Early Win Token issued per eligible game. Opt in req. Token expires at start of eligible game. Min moneyline bet $1. Wagering limits apply. Wagers placed on both sides of moneyline will void bet. Ends 1/8/23 @ 8pm ET. See terms at sportsbook dot draftkings dot com slash football terms. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, we've got a secret. This podcast is supported by Apples Never Fall, a chilling new mystery series from the author of Big Little Lies, starring Annette Bening, Sam Neill, Jake Lacey, and Alison Brie. It's sure to get people talking. What dark secrets lurk in this family? Tune in on March 21st to find out. Apples Never Fall, exclusively on W Network and Stack TV. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to a very promising, exciting, emotional, and best-ever podcast of all time.

Going Deeper episode with Nate Olokoya. Boy, Nate delivered. Yeah, we talk a lot about over-promising, under-delivering. This episode over-delivers, in my opinion. Way over-delivers. Delivering this episode over delivers, in my opinion. Way over delivers. Nate did not have to show up and be so raw and vulnerable and thoughtful and honest.

And he did. Yeah. Also just like a gem of a human being. I always flag when people walk in, how they treat people, how they introduce. He just was so warm to everyone. His energy is top notch. When people walk in, how they treat people, how they introduce, like he just was so warm to everyone. His energy is top notch. When I think of people who are like so nice to everyone, at top of my list would be him and Andy Grammer of guests we've had on this show. That's a pretty top tier duo. He was really open and I have a ton of empathy for him.

You know, like these relationships are so hard and um well we don't want to give too much away but uh also uh my book i have the hard copy here don't text your ex happy birthday i'm holding on to it like it's my like uh dr laura berman uh dr maya shunker and kazzy david and elizabeth wagmeister all were real gracious blogs on the back of the book and they say it's good. I think the cool part about this book, too, I was talking to someone over the weekend and they were asking about your book or we started talking about your book. And she was like, oh, I'm so excited to hear what he says about such and such.

And I was like, no, it's not about The Bachelor. It's not a tell-all. It's not some random soapy whatever. It's an advice manual. It is what we do on this show and i think that like took her by surprise but also like equally intrigued her elizabeth lagmeister uh chief correspondent at variety wrote nick's book is the opposite of what you'd expect from an alumni of the bachelor and then she's a bunch of other things but i do have uh anecdotal stories about my life uh in there i honestly think it's a really good i think it's good i think it's not a total waste of your time and if you've ever listened to any of our ass nicks if you are struggling with hookup

culture if you're struggling with being in a situationship having a hard time getting over someone struggling on dating uh i promise you that and a lot more. There's some helpful nuggets in here. There really are. It just feels good in your hands. Yeah, it's a nice, it's gift-worthy quality. It's very aesthetically pleasing.

It is the perfect gift for someone who has a friend who might be just struggling with the dates. It would mean the world if you guys would be willing to pre-order it. There's a link in the show description. There's a link in my bio on my Instagram. Also the link I used supports local bookstores. Local bookstores.

That's the link that's in my Instagram bio. So you get the book and you're also doing a really nice thing. And it's the same price. You get shipped the same way. There was a little discount. They give you a little 5% discount. and you're also doing a really nice thing. And it's the same price. You get shipped the same way. There was a little discount. They give you a little 5% discount. So you're really like incentivized to help out those bookstores.

Win-win. And just, you'll like it. I just can't stop touching it. Okay. It's like a really good feel to it. All right. Okay, before we get into Nate though, we got to talk about Spitgate.

I'm fully invested in this. Okay, do you think Harry spit on Chris Pine at the Venice Film Festival listen huge Harry Styles fan here love him I'm dedicated to have him on my show someday I think we had a moment running he's an amazing musician he absolutely spit on him but I here's what I think I think this is all PR I think Chris Pine and Harry Styles are fast friends and they fuck with each other. Because you look at that video, first you don't see it.

And then once someone points it out, you can't unsee it. I feel like you can see the motion of the mouse, but there's nothing leaving it. I don't think he hawked a loogie on him. I think it was just a small little, you know, and I think, yeah, that look that Chris has is kind of like, he looks almost like,

it's like he's almost impressed. It's like, okay, wow. Like, we're going there. Okay. I feel like they're fucking with each other. Although spitting is a pretty, that is a list of like most offensive things you can do to someone. Spitting on one person is up there in terms of disrespect.

You could throw someone's way, right? Spitting? I just watched an episode of Below Deck where a guy dumped a bottle of tequila on a girl's head. And I think I'd rather that than be spit on. 100%. I'll take the tequila on my head. Spitting on someone is. It's very rude. It's also, they specifically name it as a red card offense in soccer.

When I was doing my youth soccer referee certification courses, they were like, spitting is specifically called out as you're out of there right away. Even if it's just on the field? Oh, no. I think it's like spitting at or towards someone. Well, yeah. Because it's just like, you're so beneath me. I agree, though, that nobody should spit ever in public.

If you're going to spit, you better look around, make sure nobody can see you before you spit because I don't like watching people spit. Yeah, I don't think Harry really spit any spit, but I think he spat. Now I'm like trying to spit on myself. Now I'm like trying to spit on myself. I'm not engaging in this practice.

But you watched the video. What else is it? I'm pretty sure he did. For what other reason does Chris Pine stop clapping and look at his hands? It's so... And so what we're saying is that it is certainly intentional on Harry's part. I mean, how else do you... But I don't know why Harry would risk that because he's so beloved. Why would he risk his reputation of like being rude?

I don't think this affects his reputation at all. I think it's fun for us to talk about. I don't know. I also saw a tweet about, you know, keep in mind like Chris Pine. So you have Olivia Wilde at the end. The seating arrangement. Yeah, there is a tweet about, you know, keep in mind, like, Chris Pine, so you have Olivia Wilde at the end. The seating arrangement. Yeah, there is a tweet. I need a movie about the seating arrangement. Truly.

Like, how did that come to be? You have Olivia Wilde, the director, her lead actor, Harry, also her boyfriend, is not sitting next to Olivia. Rather, Chris Pine is. Well, I get, but I think had the two of them sat next to each other, it would have been like they're canoodling just like they were on set.

I kind of see why they would. Yeah, but I kind of see why they would be like, we're not going to. We don't want to feel those. Like we want to downplay the fact that they're dating, even though it is weird. I don't think anyone thought anything of it until Harry spat at them. Well, have you also seen the stuff on Twitter about how there's a woman sitting two rows back who was recording it on her phone in a hat and everyone's like, we need the...

Yes, we need the... I see that right now. Is that a... It was a person with a hat. It's a person with a hat. And everyone's like, what's the point of having the CIA slash NSA if we can't figure out who this woman is?

Someone tweeted that. I mean, Chris's immediate reaction His immediate reaction is like he, and he's laughing. Chris is laughing though. And Harry, Harry has like a mischief grin. Okay. Now I get what you're saying

where it's like once you see it, you can't unsee it. You can't unsee it once you see it. Okay, but it's very playful. It is playful.

That's what I'm saying. I don't, I don't think Chris Pine and Harry Styles, like I'll be honest, I don't, I think spitting is a pretty outrageous thing to do, but Chris is laughing.

And then you look at Olivia. She looks like she's also like, I don't know. Yeah, and he does kind of, Harry kind of like nudges him in the elbow. Yeah, I don't know. Spitting is crazy. Other kind of out there comment that I wanted to talk about is Emily Ratajkowski,

of course, in the news recently for being in some incredibly shitty circumstances where her husband, Sebastian, cheated on her. And she posted a TikTok recently that said, when he thinks he's a 10 because he pulled you, but you like ugly men.

Heavily implying x is ugly is he though i mean he doesn't need to look but i you know do women like ugly men like i feel like that's a thing also have you heard the uh what is it like uh ugly hot versus hot ugly or whatever that is? No. Like Adam Driver is considered by many to be ugly hot. Which is the, yeah. So that's ugly hot. What's hot ugly? And I don't know if it's hot ugly. Bachelor people.

Sorry. What is that supposed to mean? Is it hot ugly? Well, okay. If you were setting up that there's ugly hot and hot ugly, I could see that as like Driver being hot ugly and then someone who's super broad shoulders, athletic, kind of your conventional prototype of attraction, but there's something a little bit missing. I could see that. Bachelor people is like low-hanging fruit because a lot of good- That's so rude. And so many of you guys are very hot a lot of good looking people like are like roasted you know their characters are characters are assassinated for like no good

reason i just mean like every season of the bachelor at the very beginning when i'm looking around the room there's at least one person where i'm like hmm this feels like a printout of a hot person but the ink was a little bit off i get it i, I get it, I get it, I get it. I read an article. Okay, so hot ugly is when someone has all the conventional stereotypes of what you would find hot, like a Noah Beck or someone like that, but isn't everyone's type. So that's where people are-

What do you mean by type? Like you might not find Noah Beck attractive. That's gonna be a hot ugly. That's what I'm saying. Then there are. But you're talking more about personality characteristics. We're just talking type here. Then in the middle, you have hot hot.

Everyone agrees that they're attractive. Like Nate. Nate. Michael B. Jordan. Other people have thrown Zac Efron into the mix. Yeah. And then on the other side, there is ugly hot who is not conventionally hot according to beauty standards, but who some people may consider hot. So that's the Adam Driver of it all.

I would also maybe Pete Davidson would be 100 on that list. Yeah. The more you know. So anyways, Emily Ratajkowski, he was ugly hot and now he's this ugly. Well, I don't think she was calling him ugly hot I think that I think the implication was just like he's not in her league in terms yeah but she always knew he was like not from a look standpoint her equal but of course she's considered by many to be exceptionally like traditionally flawlessly beautiful and he was a guy yeah i feel like you always kind of know in the back of your head like who's the more attractive person in a relationship sure by traditional standards taking personality

what else they bring to the table like just surface level, if you guys were to stand there silently and a bunch of people walk by, who they would say is more attractive? I don't know. I think that only happens when there's such a discrepancy. Yeah. I don't think most people are assessing, because often you're like, oh, that's

a good-looking couple. Totally. You clump them together. You're not pinning them against each other. But when it's just like, what's going on there? How did that happen? Then I think you notice. Yeah. No, I agree.

Because if they're similar enough, then it's kind of just like, yeah, you look great together. How cute. Think we'll ever find out if Harry spit on Chris Pine? I have a feeling we'll hear from Chris Pine before we hear from Harry.

Does this make you want to watch the movie? I get scared of scary movies. Is it supposed to be scary? Like scary horror. No, it's just like a psychological thriller and I have a very weak stomach. But yes, it actually, honestly, yeah, I do want to watch it. I do want to watch it. I also, but I loved Booksmart.

Booksmart was awesome. The first movie that Olivia Wilde directed Booksmart I like that was that was one of the movies that I saw multiple times in theaters like I met my new roommates last night and they were like yeah I saw one of them was like

I saw Elvis for the second time in theaters I would go again you know it's a it's a high compliment to a movie I think despite Olivia's spotty I think she's pickle that she ended up in I think she's getting it on the chin, so to speak.

Combination of being Harry Styles' girlfriend. The Shia LaBeouf, the Florence Pugh. She's been through it. I'm not saying she hasn't made any mistakes. I don't know. But it just seems weird that she's the one who's getting the most.

And when they're at Venice Film Festival doing press, those are all the questions. It when they're at Venice Film Festival doing press, those are all the questions. It's not questions to her as a director about the film, really. It's just, where's Florence? Why isn't she here? What's the drama? Come up in drama.

Yeah, it's like the new version of who are you wearing? It's like, we know we can't just ask women super obviously superficial things. So we're going to ask about petty social drama instead of your art. Yeah. I don't know. All right, well, we've made you wait long enough.

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As the seasons change, now is a perfect time to reset and think about the little changes you might make in your daily routine to better your health. Vitamins can be such an important part of your overall health, but make sure they're the right vitamins. Maybe you want to maybe put a little muscle mass and you want a nice protein powder to go with it. Well, not all protein powders are created equal. And also the hard part about like vitamins is like, you know, for me in the past before

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you're ready to go. So much easier. Because before that, before Care-of, I'd have to get little plastic bags. It's such a pain. Yeah. It'd be so annoying. Now with Care-of, for 50% off your first Care-of, 50, half off your first Care-of order, go to takecareof.com and enter code VIALL50. That's V-I-A-L-L-50. Once again, get half off your first care of order by going to takecareof.com and enter code VIALL50. That's V-I-A-L-L-50. Nate. Nick. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate you coming, man. Yeah, no, most definitely. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you coming, man. Yeah, no, most definitely. No, most definitely. We are excited to have you. I feel like the people listening are excited to have you. I feel like Bachelor Nation doesn't know a ton about you. Yeah. We're obviously big Michelle fans.

We've enjoyed watching her journey. We enjoyed watching her fall in love with you, getting to know her. But, you know, I know like AFR, but I just feel like a lot of people haven't gotten to know you. So my hope today is to get to know you, learn a know her. But I know AFR, but I just feel like a lot of people haven't gotten to know you. So my hope today is to get to know you, learn a little bit about you. Obviously, we'll have some questions about your experience on the show, the relationship,

and see what you're able to share. And at the end of it all, I hope everyone listening just has a better understanding of who Nate is. How do you pronounce your last name? I wanna make sure I get that right. It's Olukoya. So it's like O, like Olu, like Lewis, Koi, like Koi fish, get that right it's olukoya so it's like oh like oh oh lewis koi like koi fish and then uh so olukoya olukoya yeah perfect easy olukoya thank you for break it

down thank you for thank you for uh teaching me how to do that my name is only five letters and no one can get that right so there is that let's dive into it and i apologize for anyone listening but i don't really know this and so i And I apologize for anyone listening, but I don't really know this. And so I'm just going to assume a lot of people don't know it either, but like, how did you end up on The Bachelor? Let's go step one. It's kind of a crazy story. So I'm a really friendly guy and I go out on a Friday and I meet this guy named Mike and Mike just moved to Austin like three days before. He's like, hey man, like don't know anybody. You seem to be having a good time. Like, can I hang out with you? I was like, by all means.

So we're hanging out. And the very next day we were out in the bars. We're not having fun. The very next day he texted me. He's like, Hey man, it was great getting to meet you, hanging out with you again, just moved here. Don't have any friends. If you're doing anything today, let me know. Love to like meet some more of your friends. And I was coincidentally on my way to hang out with some friends so i was like come come through let's have a good time and so he comes over and he's like hey man like how crazy the story is this a couple days ago somebody from the bachelorette asked me to be on the show i was like oh dude that's the coolest thing ever like go have fun you know and um then he's like well no i'm actually taking my bar exam he's a lawyer now and so shut up mike because i thought that's amazing but um and he's like, well, no, I'm actually taking my bar exam. He's a lawyer now. And so shut up, Mike, because I thought that's amazing.

But he's like, Mike's a lawyer now. Go Mike. And so he's like, my bar exam is the first day of filming. So I'm not even going to bother doing anything. How funny would it be if I sent him your profile? I was like, ha ha ha, whatever. And so he sends whoever reached out to him my Instagram profile. And she DMms me and was

like hey you have two days to apply before we close this and i didn't reply to her because i was like there's like no i'm not doing that you know like it was my first first uh reaction was like no not not not my thing and then she dm'd me again i was like hey like no seriously like submit an application like that just just do that so i submitted application next day actually i think the exact same day i had a quick phone call call. The next day, I had a Zoom call. And so things were just going super fast. And they were like, all right, we want you. And I was like, yeah, hey, sorry. I got a lot of stuff going on, like great job, great career. I'm good. And they were like, no, we really want you to come. And I was like, I'm OK. Thank you.

I think, honestly, I know it sounds stupid, but I think I said no, probably like 10 or 11 times. And then more conversation with friends and family. And my mom's like, hey, what's the worst that can happen? My stepdad, what's the worst that can happen? Like, you know, go have this experience. What's the worst that can happen? So I called them back and I was like, all right, like, let's do this. And I think two days later, I was on a flight to LA. Wow. It flight to la wow so they yeah it was all kind of last minute yeah very last minute very

last minute and so wow so that's kind of how it happened so when you ended up going on the show i mean you know for me like obviously when i went it was just like kind of go for the experience like obviously i had a lot of very similar it's just like you know what's the worst can happen i'll go i'll you know maybe i'll get the travel and things like that. But what was your mindset? Like, once you decided to say yes, like, what were you thinking to yourself in terms of like, what were your expectations of the show? Obviously, because the format of the show, you go to potentially fall in love. There's followers and the kind of lifestyle that so many of us have been, you know, kind of privileged to be able to try to take advantage of. What were your expectations with regards to all of that and specifically your openness to like being in a relationship?

Yeah. I mean, when it comes to expectations, I remember having a conversation when I stepped out about that. I'm just like, have no expectations. Just like, go see the experience, kind of see what happens, meet Michelle. And if there's something, there's something. If there's not, there's not. If you fall in love, you fall in love. If you don't, you don't. But just like, just be open-minded. Like, don't really expect anything. I've only seen one season of The Bachelor and it was Pilot Pete's season. I watched probably like a smooth, like three-fourths of the season of pilot peach season so i didn't really know exactly what i was getting into and i kind of like that i wasn't like exactly sure how everything works um but you had some familiarity of how it works um on the bachelor side um i did think it was kind of interesting you know like 30 guys one girl i was like yeah that's kind of you know that i think that's the main reason why i said no so many times and just also also just my, like where I was

in life with my, my career and whatnot. But I was like, oh, you know what, let's, let's see what happens. Let's not really have too many expectations. Let's just go be myself and kind of see if there's a connection between me and Michelle. All right. That was a softball. Those are, those are the softballs. This is gotcha journalism. You're're you're kind of a bit of an anomaly i feel like and you tell me how you feel about this because you know i enjoyed watching you on the season i thought you came across overall pretty well right but it seems like at least with some of your critics or there's this perception out there that i guess you just give off some fuck boy energy, at least from the screen, right? I mean, even us on the show, I definitely made some comments and kind of was just more like,

I don't know, you're an exceptionally handsome man. You really... Appreciate that. I met you once before this and I remember being like, you're beautiful. I hope I'm not making you uncomfortable. But with great power responsibility yeah and now when i think about it i don't really you know there's all these speculation we hear a lot of things but there's no real it all seems to be just a perception of you even myself i don't i don't really know you and so i guess i'm curious as to what do you have to say about that in general?

And first address that. And then I want you to tell me if you're willing, like, what was your first reaction to meeting Michelle? Yeah. Okay. So starting off with the fuck boy perception. I mean, I'll be honest, like something that I've, you know, it's something that, you know, I've been getting called since, you know, I was like, I don't know, probably like high school, you know, just like, but not being called a fuck boy, but more so like you look like a fuck boy. You know what I mean?

I don't know if it's the tattoos, the piercings. I've had so many different hairstyles, you know, I'm black, 6'8", like, you know, and I get it too. Like, I don't know if it's like a cultural thing, society, um, maybe it's music and media or whatever, but like you had the tattoos, the piercings, black guy, super tall. Um, and it's just like, oh yeah, he's a fuck boy. He talks like everything that moves. And so like me, like, especially with the way that I was raised, that's, that's as much as it's just, just appearance. I think it's all based off appearance. And I love, like, it's something that I kind of like pride myself on is when people get to know me, especially, you know, like women who get to know me, it's like, Oh, I thought you were going to be this asshole. I

thought you were going to be this, like, just talks to everything that moves and just hooks up with everything that moves. And then girls get to know me and they're like, Oh, like you're, you're really like, not like that. Like, you don't, you're, you're not a fuck boy, you know? And, and, and like, I kind of like, I've always kind of liked that feeling of like, you know, you, you're going to perceive me one way. Like you just like, you're, your first judgment of my appearance is this. And then you get to know me and it's like, you're not anything like that, you know? So I've always kind of like, and that's kind of why still to this day, I got to like, I, I love making sure that like, like, sure, you guys can think I'm a fuck boy, but, um, you know, or, or my, my appearance is a fuck boy, but then get to know me.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's just not the case. You mentioned like, how are you, how are you raised in terms of like how to treat people or women? Like what were, did you have conversations like that with your parents? Yeah. Just treating people. Um, I've always had conversations about the color of my skin with my dad. Um, who's black man he's he's from nigeria and uh whether it's just like you know just my studies or my schooling whatever or even just like how i treat women too like just like people are going to always paint a picture of me right um based on the color of my skin so having those conversations with my dad like whether it's for relationships or whatever right just like you know don't feed into it And then just not really liking it either. Like I remember in

college, like, you know, everybody has a fuck boyfriend. And I was like, man, that lifestyle is insane to me. Like, I couldn't imagine like genuinely talking to everything that moves and trying to have sex with like every girl that talks to you. Like, it's just like, I'm, I'm a relationship guy, you know, like, and I've had two serious relationships and I've pretty much been in a relationship almost all of college. I was, I was in a relationship, high school, I was in a relationship. Like I've always been like a relationship guy. Like I don't like the whole like lifestyle of just bouncing from person to person to person. I'd rather just have my person again. You know, I look, I guess I look like a fuck boy, but you get to know me and I'm

just like, dude, that's not me at all. I'm a little softy from Winnipeg, Manitoba. Does that, does that bug you though? I mean, cause like you've had to deal with some pretty harsh criticism from, or assumptions of your character. Yeah. From like Bachelor Nation, especially. Like, is that something that you've. Yeah. Cause it never really bugged me before going on the TV show.

Cause again, like I'm just a regular guy, right? Like I'm just a dude with his dog living in, or used to live in Austin, Texas, um, working, working in tech sales. Like I was just a regular everyday guy. Right. So when people would say that it's usually like in the moment and like a really small group of people are like, you know, we'd be out with friends and you know, somebody like, Oh, you look like a fuck boy. Like I'm not going to talk to you. I'm like, whatever. Like, you know know just like little stupid things like that so it never really bothered me uh but i remember episode one hopping out of the limo and kind of like going on twitter and seeing like people's first reactions to me and like immediately saying like oh like fuck boy number one just

just exited the limo or whatever things like you know it wasn't all hate to hate obviously but i remember from like episode one it was just like now it's like people say like coming at my appearance as a fuck boy like just being like kind of expanded out it was it was a weird feeling like when you're like broadcasted onto you and like then you see like okay it wasn't just like you know college or like you know end of high school where people were like oh and it kind of looks like a fuck boy it's like and it always makes me think i know i'm on a tangent right right now, but I always think like I remember like my dad's, they hate tattoos and they always said like you get tattoos, people are going to look at you differently. And I always wondered like, is it the tattoos that make me look like a fuck

boy? Like, I don't know what it is. I don't know. It doesn't help. I don't know. Tattoos. I used to have a bunch of piercings. I think people are also intimidated by a man who can wear jewelry.

Well, I wear a lot of jewelry. You know, like I think that's like a factor you're like oh shit he knows i mean i think it's the whole package but like if you have a tattoo it probably doesn't help do you feel like your image has changed since you got all your tattoos well i got them after having a girlfriend but sure i mean listen i've been like because you're with natalie it's like doesn't matter well in terms of like like if you were like to like draw a fuck boy i think you would add tattoos to the fuck boy right maybe you're right about the jewelry now i think because i've always i've been wearing jewelry since like middle school that might be that's just who you are i mean like that's the thing i think it's just like

i always find it very impressive like because i feel like some men shy away from jewelry and i feel like it shows that i don't know there's a degree of like being comfortable with your masculinity but again it feels like a lot of like being comfortable with your masculinity. But again, it feels like a lot of what you're saying is that the fuck boy perception is kind of a projection of like intimidation or that other people are like assuming because they interpret you that way. You must think you're hot shit or. Well, yeah. And let's just keep it real. Like, obviously, you're an attractive person, you know, like people.

Great power comes great responsibility that people. How many times can we compliment Nate's thought during this episode? But I'm just saying, you know, like most people aren't responsible with their power. A lot of people aren't. And a lot of men aren't responsible with the power that they are given. And I think sometimes that's, you know, unfortunately for the people like yourself who say their relationship people and like you. And I'm assuming like you're not a saint, but there's a big difference between, you know, unfortunately for the people like yourself who say their relationship people and like, and I'm assuming like you're not a saint, but there's a big difference between, you know, someone who's disrespectful or inconsiderate of people's feelings, et cetera, et cetera,

dating around constantly, just like hustling for action and, and then you, it sounds like. So let's talk about your experience falling in love with michelle if that's not too awkward yeah just because i guess i guess what i'm thinking well i'm glad you said that but i think that audience would want to hear about that kind of your emotional journey yeah of what it was like to meet michelle and and kind of like bring us back to that time so i guess just like yeah what was it like to first meet michelle like right out the limo yeah sure i mean just honestly like her beauty like for sure you know first time meeting somebody i think you that's kind of like the first thing you take in is their their appearance so obviously her beauty her smile um it's weird but i'm a nose guy and she has like the cutest nose

ever so i was like one of the first things i know it sounds weird i'm a nose guy but i like a good nose i like a good nose and um you know so i was like one of the first things. I know it sounds weird. I'm a nose guy, but. I like a good nose. I like a good nose. I like a good nose. And, you know, so that was like one of the first things I noticed about her was her smile and how cute of a nose that she has. And yeah, then I was the first one on the limo. So I kind of just walked down the stairs and sat on the couch. And I was just like, I don't remember a word that I said, but wow, she's beautiful. You got engaged.

Yeah. And sometimes people question the authenticity of the engagements on the show in general and certainly obviously you've had people judge you for being a fuck boy and it seems like people my understanding of your relationship in general is people kind of doubting your overall sincerity yeah can you tell me at the time and when you first thought to yourself that you were falling in love with michelle and and then when you actually thought that like walk me through your process of going from the guy who is like, nah, I'm good. I'm not coming on your show to, I'm going to get engaged to this woman. Yeah. Oh, it's like a, like, I remember like just gradually just more and more like realization of like the feelings that were,

that I was catching and those feelings turning like stronger and stronger and like deeper and deeper and I remember like you know it's kind of weird because Rodney was also somebody that was on the show but I remember like coming back to the hotel and just feeling like like dude I like this woman like a lot you know and uh you know our first one-on-one just kind of seeing how she is I remember like even like the pajama party where she kind of felt a little like left out and like a little disrespected and then she is. I remember like even like the pajama party where she kind of felt a little like left out and like a little disrespected. And then she pulled me aside and like let me know

how that made her feel, especially coming from me since we had like a kind of a connection, like a strong connection. And like just like feeling bad that I made her feel any type of way. And just like knowing that I cared about her. And it's like kind of like a hard, like, cause you like, you like fall in love.

I don't know. I'm like, what's it like? Kind of like an of like an analogy like you know like when a plane is landing like when a pain is like descending like you don't really like feel yourself getting closer and closer you know maybe your ears pop or whatever but you don't really feel the sure yeah you know yeah that's kind of like can I pinpoint like oh this exact moment I was in love I don't think so but it is kind of like i don't know i feel like it's kind of like when a plane is landing like you're not landing but like starting to descend like you don't really you don't really feel it but all of a sudden you're on the ground when you were just like 10 000 feet up so it's like you're slowly just like all of a sudden

holy crap i'm in love that makes sense yeah what about your decision to get engaged? I remember the day before, um, it was, I've always kind of just trusted myself and my decisions. And I remember, um, obviously the further you along in the, the, the journey that you go, that's a thought that like comes up quite often, especially when you're by yourself. Um, and I just remember thinking like, I can see i can see it like this is like let's take let's take the jump like i'm ready like this let's let's spend the rest of our lives together i just i just remember just like just let's do it yeah let's do it like this this is something that i can definitely see and feel and i've never felt the feelings i felt and i was like this is something that that's one thousand% going to last.

And like, I know it's kind of like in theory, kind of crazy, but I was like, it's not crazy to me. Like, let's do this. Like, this is how I feel. And I, and I, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. Your storyline was kind of famously your, your stepdad saying that he wasn't sure if you were ready for this big commitment. And then I think, correct me if I'm wrong with that, you hadn't like never been in love before. Is that accurate? How did that make you feel when your stepdad said that? And I guess, how did you know?

I guess as someone who hadn't fallen in love before, did you feel like throughout your relationship that was like a struggle or you know what I'm saying? Like having never been in love before and then getting engaged on The Bachelorette, like how, how did you kind of process that kind of big leap? And like, what was your thought about all that? Something that I've never felt before in previous relationships is the feeling of like, I want to do life with you like through and through, like genuinely, I want to, like, I can see myself

having kids with you. I can see myself getting married. I can see myself living with you. I can see myself, like, doing everything, like, the little things, you know, paying bills together, you know, all the way to the big things of, you know, living a stravagant life, right? And it was just so easy for me to feel that way with Michelle and I remember just like kind of holding on to that feeling because like I have been in a long-term or sorry uh yeah long-term relationship before and those feelings never really popped up and then with Michelle they popped up so easily and I have some friends that you know they were with a girl for six years and never really thought to themselves like it was just like he didn't see himself like living with this individual then they break up and then he

meets a new girl and they started living together like four months later yeah right and and um and it's just like you kind of like when you know you know kind of was the feeling that i was holding on to as well and even like my mom my mom um my mom got, got, got married to my stepdad after knowing each other for like three months. It was just like, maybe, who cares?

Yeah, I just felt it. I was like, you know, this, this is what I want to do. I want to, I want to spend the rest

of my life with this woman. So, so for anyone doubting you, you were, sounds like, head over heels. Really in love with Michelle. I remember coming home

and every, my friends that i that i that i told and my family like that they've never seen me like that like they've never ever seen me just like so happy and just so like like in love just like you know they were all just kind of like taking it back like i remember my mom was like this is real right i'm like yeah this is real this is real i remember like the the because I flew back to Winnipeg and my uh my buddy picked me up dropped me off my dad's house and I was up till 5 a.m talking to my stepmom about Michelle and just like like because I just like it's real

like this is this is it for me this is the woman I'm spending the rest of my life with and it's like having the conversation my dad just it was just i just remember those like just my family just kind of like well like today today like today's in love like this is it for him you know my friend i feel like i've never seen you like i've been hearing your voice yes yeah well i guess maybe let's transition i guess what happened? I mean, as far as Michelle, after you guys broke up, my impression is you broke up with her, right? And what did Michelle say?

She acknowledged that it can be really hard to talk about this kind of thing and said, I think where I'm struggling, it's like you never know how much to say. You never know how to handle it. You never know how it's going to be taken. But what I will say is this is not something I foresaw and I struggling, it's like you never know how much to say. You never know how to handle it. You never know how it's going to be taken. But what I will say is this is not something I foresaw and I'll leave it there. Which is kind of cryptic. Almost implies that maybe something specific happened.

And then... And then Caitlin Bristow made a comment on her podcast that said that she had been kind of like helping Michelle through the breakup. And she said that Michelle was, quote, definitely blindsided by the breakup. And she said that Michelle was quote, definitely blindsided by the breakup. Like, how did you break up with her? I, I broke up with her over the phone.

So I know that. I mean, you seem like a great guy. Um, but if I'm being honest, like not, not the best. Yeah.

Um, like, you know, she, you want to think she's worth a plane ticket yeah no it's just like they're like yeah like because i yeah you know you don't want to break up with somebody especially your fiance over the phone it was it was like uh it was a it was it was it's her birthday weekend and she has all of her friends in L.A. And I mean, there's a our relationship was. There was a lot of just it wasn't as good as. Our relationship was tough.

There was there was there was lots of up and downs, lots of arguments, lots of fights and just not really clicking, not really seeing eye to eye. And so when it comes to breaking up with Michelle over the phone, it was her birthday weekend. Like I said, we're all here in L.A. because her and I got invited to this Wango Tango event. And from the beginning of the weekend, things were just kind of rocky. It got even more rocky. Wango Tango happened and, um, her and I, you know, we got into an argument, uh, right before, um, doing all those press interviews and whatnot. And, um, it's like such a buildup, you know, trying to talk about like why, why it ended, like it's such a build-up but long story short

The the weekend was not a good weekend and Her and I are up late having very deep conversations I think the day before I was having very deep conversations with her friends too because her friends I mean they weren't having a good time either. It was just a bad weekend for everybody. Getting advice from her friends, having very long, deep conversations with her friends about our relationship and about her and I and our compatibility and all that. And so the last day in LA,

the conversation was kind of like already heading towards a breakup, which again, it wasn't our first time having breakup conversations. This is probably our third time having a breakup conversation. Yeah. And so, um, so I guess were you surprised to hear about the,

I guess the accusation of blindsidedness? I can't, I can't, I can't like tell somebody how to feel. So like if Michelle felt blindsided, I can't take that away from her. But I know like the reality of it is that this wasn't our first time talking about a breakup. And the day I left L.A. to go back to after her birthday weekend, it was kind of like already being said without being said and again it wasn't our first time having a breakup conversation this is our third time like

nearly breaking up and so i'm yeah you know i'm just i'm frustrated and so i hop into the uber and like i remember driving to the to the airport just like already just in my feelings and just like so lost, so confused because again, like we're jumping from like the beginning all the way to the end. There's so much in the middle to unpack, but this is just like, I got to the airport and I remember calling my mom and just like crying in the airport because I didn't know what to do. And I was just like, my frustration levels were just like crying in the airport because I didn't know what to do. And I was just like, my frustration levels were just like through the roof. And then I call my little sister

and then I get on the airport, I get on the airplane and I'm just, um, I'm crying in the airplane, you know? Anyways, I land, I land in, uh, I land in Austin and I call my mom again, I landed in Austin and I called my mom again, call another person. And, um, the last thing we were talking about, cause the very next weekend was CMAs.

Holy crap. He's getting me teared up. I went another. The very next, the very next week was CMAs. And I remember we were talking to each other, like, like I was like, I do not feel comfortable going to CMAs.

Like I don't like, because something happened right before Wingo Tango. And I kind of was just like, I'm like, do not feel comfortable going to cmas like i don't like because something happened right before wingo tango and i kind of was just like i'm like i'm not doing this like you know like something happened right before wingo tango and like doing the whole like press stuff right before like on wet wingo like if you see those videos you can see i'm just i'm upset before yeah i'm just upset and i was like i do not feel comfortable doing cmas so i land in austin i think by the time I land, she's still in the air. And I land in Austin. I call my mom again.

Crying on the phone with my mom. Called friends, family, whatever. I'm just like, I think, I don't see the relationship working anymore. You know? So I was frustrated as hell. And crying on the phone with my mom. Michelle calls me. I thought she she just got home

but she was still in the airport, unfortunately, because that just kind of makes the story even worse. She's still in the airport and she's like, hey, if we're not doing CMAs next week, we have to give them a reason why. And I just blurted out, we're not doing CMAs because I can't be with you anymore.

So yeah, I broke up with her over the phone, which is a dick move, but I don't know it just sucked it was just but that definitely puts things into context yeah yeah i mean the having to do all these like press things and the bachelor relationships are always tough you know like it's like even the best relationships the one that i've survived i've heard you know everyone's gone through it you know like obviously the being in that world you fall in love and this kind of obviously like very intense environment and

those feelings are real but like once you get out like every couple's faced with just a ton of challenges and a ton like everyone like both sides you know like you know if you're the bachelor the bachelorette you have all this pressure and responsibility if you're in your shoes you sometimes can feel like you're on an island and things like that so like i totally empathize with with you and yeah what about the i mean you mentioned that wasn't your first time having these kind of breakup conversations when was the first time uh january 2nd so so a while Yeah. Like right after the public found out, um, it, yeah, yeah. I know the relationship just, it was just like, we were never, we were never like,

it started off so great. And then like somewhere it just like, we just didn't, we just stopped clicking, you know, like the communication broke down and like, like I think the world of Michelle, obviously like she's, she's phenomenal. I say that to everybody. People ask me, you know, when they see me out, like, how is Michelle? She's fantastic. Like, I think the world of her. But just somewhere down the road, like even early, I guess early on, since it was January 2nd, because I just remember it like it was yesterday.

It was just like, wait, what's going on right now? You know, like I fell in love. I fell in love with this woman. And then like, it just, I'm not saying that she changed into like this terrible person but it just it wasn't the same super quick like really quickly after um everything was like said and done after the engagement after we started like going into just like the everyday motion of lives and not like this, you know, not, not a televised relationship, but like a real relationship, things just started to like shift. And I remember January 1st was our

first like really big fight. And then the very next day it was another really big fight. And I was so freaked out. Um, I remember, um, like we got home probably like three and I just, I was like, yo, I gotta, I gotta go. So I hop in my car and it's 3am and I just drive to like an empty parking lot. And I was just up till 6am crying on the phone with Rodney. Cause I was like, dude, what's going on right now? Like, I'm like, ah, yeah, it was just, it was just so weird. Cause it was just, again, like, I don't know. I don't know what what happened but like our communication just started breaking down and like something just shifted really quickly and and I think it just freaked me out and then that's when I had the conversation like the first conversation with her of like hey I want to be honest with you like after this last like week like um like I am starting to doubt this relationship you know and you know but I wasn't I wasn't just gonna quit you know like i was like let's let's continue putting in the effort let's continue but i wanted her because

the plan was i was supposed to move to to minnesota like two months from from from our first like that january first and second moment and and that's when that's why i didn't move is because i had to be honest with her i was like hey after the time spent um over the last couple weeks you know things have been kind of kind of rocky and then we got into like this really big fight on January 1st and January 2nd and I was like and I think I was I think I left Minnesota and went back to Austin like on the fifth or sixth and I was like I just got to be honest like I I want to like figure this out before I move to Minnesota like I think we should kind of put the moving conversation on hold for now while we figure out this relationship and figure out figure this out before I moved to Minnesota. Like, I think we should kind of put the moving conversation on hold for now while we figure out this relationship and figure out this compatibility

because the truth of the matter is that we have only known each other for a few months and here we are engaged and I do want to live with you and I do want to like do everything with you. But like, I, I, I, we really need to like focus on the relationship and focus on our compatibility and focus on our communication styles and focus on everything that you need to focus on to make a relationship work and so that's why I didn't move in in March was because the conversation I had with her early January do you feel like in between the conversations where it did you know the conflicts that led to very serious questions about whether or not to break up do you feel like you were able to fully recover as a couple between those conversations? Or do you think once that kind of initial seed was planted,

it was always rocky in a way that it never really returned to how it was before? It was rocky. It was definitely rocky. Don't get me wrong. We had amazing moments in between rockiness, but it was rocky. I'm not going to i think i i truly believe michelle would say the same thing you know you did you end up ever going to minneapolis did you guys ever live together at all um no no we never moved in together i spent like just a little over

uh a month um living with her in her apartment in minnesota but like we never like i didn't like but you yeah went there okay yeah so i I mean technically I guess you could say we lived together for a month how was that experience what was like did you get to know family friends yeah I spent a lot of time with with with her friends got to spend time with family you know talking about previous breakup other near breakups like we we nearly broke up while i was there too you know so again it wasn't like it wasn't like i just woke up one morning i was like you know what i want to break up with michelle like no there's it's a lot of thought and long nights and a lot of tears and a lot of just reason behind when i broke up with her who who i mean sounds like ronnie you talked

to a lot were there other people who did you I mean, it sounds like Rodney, you talked to a lot. Were there other people, who did you talk to the most as like confidence in terms of, you know, when you were going through it, it sounds like you put a lot of thought into these challenging times in the relationship. Yeah. You know, I,

you know, everyone kind of always has their go-to people. Who are your go-to people to talk to? Mom and dad. Mom and dad. Yeah. My stepdad. Yeah.

Definitely my mom and dad. Like just having like long conversations with my mom a lot of a lot of just like just a lot of late night conversations with my mom and like a lot of just like asking her for help because of just like the confusion and just like i did this because this is what my heart told me to do and now my heart's you know it seems like my heart's just not in it the same way that it was and it was just like trying to figure out like you know like just the confusion like what's going on in this relationship because i fell in love with michelle and again it's not like she

changed into this like she didn't we just we just stopped like i don't know they just started drag like consistently and gradually going downhill where we were just like, like we're just, you know, it wasn't like sunshine and rainbows anymore. Sure. You know what I mean? I'm just like, so very late night conversations with my mom and lots of tears. I remember my stepdad came to come visit me one day. We go, we go golfing, we go get dinner. And, um, on the drive back, I was dropping you off at his hotel and on the drive back, he's like, all right, what's up?

Like, what's going on here? Because like something's clearly not right. Like, talk to me. And I remember just like crying my heart out to him because I'm just like, I'm so frustrated. And I have no idea what's going on in this relationship. And it's just like, it sucks because like you're just so sure you know like and and just like just trying to figure out like how can you be so sure about something and then that just like fall apart right so yeah my mom and my dad just having a lot of conversations

with my mom and dad i appreciate you being so open about this i know it's not easy yeah do you think ever like you talked about communication compatibility and then obviously we talked about this perception that you've had to deal with yourself do you feel like that ever played a role in your relationship like was trust ever an issue with you guys did like things ever happen or or i think there was some insecurity in the relationship i think that uh that played a I think there was some insecurity in the relationship. I think that played a really big role in the relationship. Like some insecurities, I'm not calling Michelle insecure at all, but I think there was just some like insecurity moment where like Michelle's not like, it's not like Michelle's like a, like I would never say I don't trust Michelle, but I know that there was like a moment where like I started questioning things because I, it was just like a confusing moment.

And that kind of just led to some trust issues on my part too. So yeah, I think, I think trust, trust definitely kind of played like a, well, I mean, I can't, what are you able to share what that moment was? Yeah. So we're laying in bed one day, and she's right next to me. We're in Austin. She's right next to me, and she's on Instagram. And I see, you know, I glance at her phone,

and I see that there's a text or a DM thread with like a very, very famous country music singer. And I was like, hey, Michelle's a celebrity. That's something I got to get used to, too. I was like, hey, that's normal. Celebrities talk to celebrities. So I didn't think much of it. It was whatever.

And then 20 seconds later, I glance at her phone again and the entire thread is gone. So obviously, alarms are going off in my head and I'm like hey like I like a glass of your phone and you were talking to this this country music singer and now the entire thread is gone like I have to ask what was that about right the story that she told me just made no sense you You know, like it just, it was just such an odd story. It started with like, oh, like he, I deleted it because what he said made me feel uncomfortable. I was like, oh, like, what did he say? And she was like, oh, he wanted to go get drinks with me. And I was like, okay, like what, like what led to that? Because this singer had invited her because he was

on tour or something in minnesota so like i think it was after they had already met yeah they had already met because because they they went to this concert um her and her friends went to this concert because because he met this person yeah yeah yeah so they she went to her this guy's concert um in minnesota because he was on he was on tour and so she like was like backstage got like a backstage pass and whatnot and i was okay like what what led to like him like asking you uh to go get drinks and it was like oh we're gonna go play basketball like my friends and his friends and i was like what did he exactly say that made you feel so uncomfortable that you had delete the entire message and she's like we should get drinks was like quote unquote I was like does that like like how did you know he meant

just you two because you just said that the plan was for you and some of like her friends and and his friends to go play like pick up basketball or something like that and anyways the conversation kept on going back and forth and I was like hey, I do not want to bring this. Like, I don't trust you energy into this relationship at all. That's the last thing I want. But like, I do not feel comfortable right now. And you don't have to do this if you don't want to, but can you call your friend that you said that you were with? And I just want to like hear it from her. And, um, so she did that. She called her friend. She was like, Hey, so-and-so, do you remember this? And her friend was like, Michelle, I don't know what you're talking about.

And so I was just like, all right. And then just dropped it. Like I didn't know what to do. What happened after that? She apologized for making me feel like I couldn't trust her. She told me that you know there was like nothing to worry about and we really never talked about it again like i kind of was just like all right i don't know what to do right now so i'm just you didn't really you didn't

get it no it wasn't until like a month and a half maybe two months later that uh it came up in conversation i was like you know ever since that day i have had a little bit of trust issues but like other than that like i didn't know what to do you know i didn't i didn't know what to do so i kind of just like i think we just like made dinner and went to bed like i didn't and you didn't like a was it just like you didn't want to fight or something or yeah i mean it was just like a red flag and like you know she had she'd apologized she had like made made sure that i knew that it was nothing, it was nothing to be concerned about. But like the fact that the whole message thread got deleted, I was like, this is something to

be concerned about. But I was like, you know, like, I mean, I'm just like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. I was just like, whatever. I don't know. It was like, like I said, like I, I like Michelle, Michelle's a very trustworthy person and I, and I do trust her. But that one moment, like I remember like it did kind of play like a role of like, it just wasn't like a fun thing to feel. And I think that's why I was just like, you know, I don't know. I just, I didn't really know what to do in that moment.

So I kind of just, you know, she, she apologized and I was like, all right. And just kept it pushing. I'm curious, like, in terms of, because I think communication can be the product of so many different things. But, like, when you talk about kind of an incompatibility there, if you had to describe the specific area where there wasn't alignment, would you say it was like a lifestyle thing? Like, a long-term goals thing? Value? Just love languages? Like, how would you describe kind of the specific element of the relationship where you started to feel like oh we're just different people in this way

it's a really good question um I think we were just like genuinely two different people from two completely different worlds there was there's there's so many different elements like I don't know if I can pick one but I know that that her and i've had like a lot of like late night conversations about just like like how different we are and sometimes it was a good thing and sometimes it was a bad thing but there's there's like a lot of elements that like the relationship was just like tainted from like so many different different things and it was just like there was like a lot of pressure like i can only imagine like because she would tell me about the pressure i can only like truly imagine the pressure of being the bachelorette you know what i mean and so there's pressures of like to always be perfect there's a lot you know i can't i can't pinpoint

one but i know like the pressures of being the bachelorette i think that i think that truly did play a role in michelle because like i know like that, like Michelle's like the most put together person I've ever met. It's like, she is, you, you saw her on TV. She is phenomenal. Like she's just so put together.

So like political, so well-spoken and she was very impressive as a bachelor. Yeah. Yeah. Like a very impressive woman. And I think, I think there was just like pressures of being the bachelorette that once we left that world I thought we were like I kind of wanted to be two normal people and I think like

there was there there's always this like background pressure to just be as perfect as possible where I was like I mean let's just be ourselves and and I think that played a role into like us not seeing eye to eye because and we had conversations about the pressure like there's I can only imagine but we had a lot of deep conversations about like the pressure that that she felt as being the bachelorette and like just like the the weird world because here I am just a regular dude from Austin with his dog who works in tech sales here she is just a a teacher and um and then all of a sudden she's a bachelorette and we're engaged and all this extra stuff but But I don't know. When you asked that question, I feel like there was a lot of things that played a role

into our breakup. But the way you asked that question, the first thing that came to mind was just this pressure to always be perfect. And I kind of wanted to just be Nate and Michelle. Random question. Do you know if Michelle, because we've all done it uh especially people in bachelor world some are better than others but do you know if michelle ever like would read like things like reddit or fan accounts or comments yeah i mean i mean i can let her

answer that i know i know the only reason why i asked is because that can put a like a lot of stress on a relationship. And I think whether it's you're just reading it about yourself, right? It's hard to be in this world and all of us, you, me, you've all experienced. You go from this normal person to a very well-known person, at least in Bachelor World, which is a big world, overnight. And it can be really weird and a lot of pressure and i always tell like if you know if someone has one advice for me i think you just don't read about yourself you know because it's you start reacting to the things that

you're reading yeah and and and then i'm sitting here thinking there's all these conversations about who people think you are and the perception of you and i'm just wondering if was michelle reading all this stuff and was that getting into her head and and do you think that was maybe playing a role and then in in some of the challenges you guys were facing uh i could see that being i could see that being like part of the part of the reason for sure deandra yeah is there anything going on there obviously there was a lot of uh dialogue about you and Deandra can you uh just clear the air or explain what what's up with all that when it comes to uh when it comes to Deandra no I saw that because we follow each other on Instagram she

lived in LA she's Nigerian I'm Nigerian that's just kind of how Nigerians are right so I just moved to LA I messaged her I'm like hey just got to LA um these are the birthday plans you want to join by all means join I'd love to have you there and uh then all of a sudden there's a picture of uh um our knees touching the knees knee gait knee your knees were touching I didn't know they're sitting on bar stools and everyone was like they're a couple their knees are gravitating towards one another. It was just like the worst timing. It just looked so bad.

But no, like me and D'Andra, there's nothing going on whatsoever. But the optics are just like, that looked bad. That looked really bad. So yeah, that was stupid on my part, especially just like how soon after the breakup. The optics look terrible, but no, nothing's going on between her and I. my part which is especially just like how soon after the breakup that was the optics looked terrible but no nothing's going on between her and i after you and michelle broke up was it like a clean cut did you guys have conversations were there any conversations about reconsidering getting back together or anything like that yeah i think the breakup took nearly a week

to like actually finalize the breakup like from when she called me and asked about cmas and i said you can't go to cmas because i can't be with you anymore to all right here we were done we're like broken up that took about like six days of like lots of conversations lots of late night conversations texting phone calls phone calls, FaceTimes, things like that. Yeah. Then it got messy. The post-breakup got messy. And so communication between Michelle and I ended, I don't know, maybe like mid-July.

Okay. Yeah. We were talking something on the show and you've been very generous with, with what you've shared. So thank you. Did she block you or cause we saw something on Instagram and like tags are gone. The tags are gone. And honestly, if whatever,

like if you need to, you need to, but like, is that something that happened between you guys or do you know why if it did? The backstory of that is kind of like upsetting story. Um, but yeah,

she blocked me. She blocked me. Okay. Yeah. And I don't think I want to go into like the nitty gritty of that, but that was kind of like a low blow because we were like on the phone. Yeah. So that was just like, it was weird.

It was weird. I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know why it was a block if i'm being completely honest because you know i remember she she called me after and she's like i didn't know i blocked you i didn't i don't know the difference between a block and unfollow and i was just like this looks this looks so bad you know and of course people went crazy after she blocked me but there's like several different steps between the two but no i know but you know what breakups suck

and at the end of the day you got to do what you got to do can i ask a quick question just like in the i'm sure you're still like processing and healing but like as you kind of think more about this relationship how does it impact what going forward is going to be really important for you in a partner? Oh, yeah. We're all on the same page. Okay. That's great. I want to talk about what's next for you and what you want and your hopes.

I do have one more question before we move on to what's next for you. before we move on to what's next for you? I think I know the answer, but I guess the reason I want to ask this question is because clearly there's a lot of love that you have or have for Michelle. And it's hard getting over your first love. Are there ever moments where you miss her? Like, Michelle and I, like the beginning of that relationship was probably one of the most

beautiful things I've ever experienced in my entire life. We had so much fun. Like we were, that was the beginning of our relationship was the most fun I've ever had, uh, with, with somebody ever. And I, I, I, I miss, I miss, I miss the Michelle I fell in love with for sure. And I've thought about this question before and it's like, I miss the Michelle that I fell in love with. I'm not sure I miss the Michelle I broke up with. I'm sorry, man. Well, you've obviously probably learned a lot from this experience.

What's one thing that you experienced in your past relationship and your next relationship and who knows how many more relationships you might have to have before you find your person? But what's something that you really enjoyed having in that relationship in your last one that you want to make sure you bring forward? And then what's something or things that you want in your next relationship that maybe you didn't have in this one okay so the first one is what did i have in this relationship i want to make sure is in my next relationship yeah just uh you know it's like hey it didn't work out but yeah x y and z was good or x was good or

i mean i was just talking about the fun that we had at the beginning you know and just like that not dying out because we were kids together you know like that was the best part of her and I at the beginning of the relationship is like we were just little kids we did science experiments we like go out and try and catch insects together like we were just kids

you know like we were just so laid back so much fun and it's just like you know that that didn't last but you know like it was just so laid back so much fun and it's just like you know that that didn't last but you know my next relationship like you know I definitely want I want to be I want to be with somebody that that we can have like just fun like that like the amount of fun that Michelle and I had at the beginning of the relationship was like out of this world so that's definitely something that the next the next person I'm with has some big shoes to fill because I like I said it was like the most fun I've ever had in a relationship was at the beginning relationship

with michelle and then the next part was things that you would maybe didn't have and that maybe you learn from not having it in this relationship that you think would be really important to maybe you know to to have the type of of relationship that you hope to have. I don't want this to sound like an insult because it's definitely not an insult. But I think having more of a partner and less of a coach, if that makes sense. Yeah. Did you feel like you had to apologize a lot

in your last relationship? I mean, yeah. did you feel like you had to apologize a lot in your last relationship i mean when you love i mean yeah but we are you know you know we were just there there was definitely just i think we were both just drained you know like apologizing just because like i'm tired you know i'm tired yeah and i'm just like i need to figure out what's going on in this relationship because I'm doubting it and it's like if we if we argue you know it's just going to make it worse so let me just apologize or so I did find myself apologizing just something happened and we just stopped we just stopped like working you know we just stopped working and it's

like yeah it's like you know like just stopped working. And it's like, yeah, it was like, you know, like puzzle pieces at the beginning. It was like puzzle pieces. It was like the perfect match. And then just the relationship, it was just like all the edges got warped. And next thing you know, it's just like, we're, we're not, we're not fitting anymore. You know, like, and Hey, not every relationship is supposed to work out. And, um, I mean, this, this is, this sucks. This this this sucks to talk about this this is hard um but at the end of the day you know like i like i think michelle and i can go to bed knowing that as much pain and as much heartbreak and as much tears and just how shitty this breakup was we can both go to bed knowing that it was it was hard but it was the right thing to do you know we just you know we weren't for

each other i really appreciate you uh sharing all this stuff man it's um it's not easy to do you've been maybe one of our most vulnerable guests we've ever had so i really i really appreciate that it's not easy to do. So thank you. We do this thing called texting office hours where our guests help people along with us draft texts. Are you down to join us for that? Yeah, let me get in the right headspace.

We'll give you a little quick break. So we'll do texting office hours and we'll come back with Nate, get some final thoughts with Nate. And let's bring on the caller. How's it going? Great. My name's Nicole.

I'm 34. How can we help, Nicole? Hi, Nick. So I need help drafting a text to a guy that I have been dating kind of since April with like a short pause in between. The goal of my text is really I either need this to like move forward or end. Are you in a relationship or are you in a situation ship? Well, so that's kind of the issue. We decided to be in a relationship a couple weeks ago.

Oh, okay. Which started off really well for the first week or two. And then the last like week or two, it's just died down. We've gone a few days without talking. The communication's really lacking. I'm just not like getting what I need out of it, but I haven't quite communicated that to him yet. So I'm trying to figure out, do I communicate this and really push for it or do I just, you know, end it? I mean, I'm glad you called in and we do call this texting office hours, but is this a conversation that should happen over text or?

Well, I think that's kind of the problem is like, when I am with him, I get really nervous and insecure about the conversation. And we usually have a good time when we're together. He's not great with like communication. So unless I'm like a couple drinks in, I don't really talk about my feelings with him. We definitely prefer you not to be a couple drinks in every time you have to try to get on the same page. That said, I do. No, let me ask you this. Your lack of comfort, is that more of a you problem or do you think it's a reflection of his reservations or both in the relationship?

I think it's definitely more of a me problem. Okay. Ever since you've defined the relationship, what are the biggest things you feel like you're missing? Well, I feel like we kind of, we jumped into it pretty quickly. So we actually took like a break of dating for a couple months. And then, you know, he got drunk and texted me all these amazing things of how much he missed me and liked me and wanted to try again. And then we started talking for a liked me and wanted to try again. And then

we started talking for a week, got together to really talk. And that's kind of when we solidified, like, let's try being in a relationship. Okay. So since then, I would say the first week was really good. I was, you know, he was texting me sweet messages, but he was thinking about me. He was asking me out to dinner. It was going well. And then the next week or two, it just kind of slowed down and slowed down. I don't know if part of it is like me not giving enough. Cause I, I like, if I feel him push back or pull back, then I pull back. Okay. And I think he needs someone that's really like putting in the effort, but if I'm not getting that reciprocated, then I'm going to pull back and not give much.

Have you shared that bit of information with him yet? No. Okay, well. And so the reason why I'm trying to figure out this text thing is because I know that I can be more honest and clear with my words if I text it. Okay. And I also don't know if it's just too soon and if I just need to chill out. Too soon for what? To be having these more serious conversations.

You've been dating this guy since April. Well, yeah. So in June, we kind of stopped talking for no reason. What do you mean for no reason? We were in different towns. So I was going to be moving to his town when we first started dating. So the first two months of us dating, we were two and a half hours away. And he had expressed to me that like, he didn't want to get emotionally attached to me unless, unless I was for sure moving.

At the time I was applying for jobs. I wasn't like for sure moving. So I think kind of what happened, like our last date toward the end mid-June was um him kind of expressing to me like you know summer's gonna be busy and I don't know it it didn't really go I didn't think we were gonna stop talking I just thought we were gonna kind of not see each other for a little while and then we kept talking for a week but I could tell I was the one putting in the effort. He wasn't really responding much. So we just stopped talking. I just didn't reply to one of his texts and he didn't text me. Okay. Okay. Red flag, I guess, for both of you.

How did you guys start talking again? So this is where I'm feeling really insecure. So after a couple of weeks of that, of us not talking, I sent a message to him saying like, I don't know what happened. We had something good. I put the ball in your court or I felt like I did. I'm just looking for closure and he didn't respond to me. And then like a month and a half later, I moved to where he lives and saw him back on the dating app. And I had to drive by his house every day when, well, not every day, but multiple times on my way places. So I would see his house, see his truck, see that, you know, no other cars are there. So I'm on the dating app. So I actually reached out to him again. Okay. And you're like, Hey, I'm here. I was like, Hey, throw my cards on the table.

I still think about you. If there's anything left on your end, like I moved back. If you want to get together, what do you say? He said, yeah, he still thinks about me too.

And then we made plans to get together. And then that's when he got drunk and said all those. I really like you. I miss you. I want you to be my girlfriend. Like all this stuff that I wasn't really replying to. Like, cause I knew he was drunk. Defining the relationship came from him being drunk. Um, so it came from after those texts, we got together, like the next day

I kind of messaged him, like, how are you feeling? He's like, good. I'm like, do you still feel the same way as you did last night? And he's like, yes, but you want to talk about it, about it in person. So I'll wait till we get together. We have plans to get together. We actually had like gone out to dinner once, didn't talk about it, and then talked about the next time that we got together. Yeah, it's kind of a lot. And we haven't talked in a couple of days.

I was out of town for the weekend and it was just like very short texts. Looking back, I'm like, I didn't really give him anything in those texts. He didn't really give me anything in those texts. He didn't really give me anything in those texts. So I don't even know like what to say to him today. You two clearly aren't communicating. You feel a lack of communication. And it sounds like you just want to like calmly like have a conversation with him. That's just like bare minimum.

Yeah, just get on the same page. So I don't want you to feel like you're trying to pick a fight or you're you have some big ask from him you know also don't question if it's too soon to have the conversations i think was yeah it's not yes it's not too soon to have like a baseline conversation to talk about like literally we're talking about expectations here right expectations boundaries expectations how much you want to talk boundaries of like how much maybe personal time you guys both might need, you know? These are like baseline conversations to have.

You guys just defined the relationship a couple weeks ago and chances are you probably didn't have like a ton of conversations after you define that about what that means in terms of like how much time we spend together. And I know everyone likes to think this, like, well, we'll just figure it out. We'll just let it happen organically. You know, I don't know what's going on in your life or his life, but we all have lives. You said you're 34?

Yeah. Right. So you got a life, I'm guessing. So like, how does he fit into your life? How do you fit into his? These are conversations we need to have. Would you feel comfortable sending a text saying that you would like to have a conversation? Because I would still like you to have this conversation in person. And to be in a relationship with someone, you're going to have to start being able to have these conversations in person. But I get like maybe it's hard to bring up. Like sometimes you're just like, hey, can we talk?

And maybe that text is something like you want to bring up the fact that it's just like, hey, can we talk? And maybe that text is something like, you want to bring up the fact that's just like, and maybe you offer something. I have a tendency of doing this and I really like you. So I don't want to do this with you. And that is the pullback thing. But I am noticing that like, I'm just, I'm feeling some distance.

Maybe it's me, but I'd love to not now, but like sometimes we see each other, just kind of talk about like, you know, what works for you. And cause you were talking about like how much time and, and, and alone, how much time together and how much alone time and how much communication, these are just expectations. So you just want to talk about your expectations with each other. And would you feel comfortable just sending him a text saying that you'd like to talk about your expectations with each other and would you feel comfortable just sending them a text saying that you'd like to talk about it because that to me is ideal i mean like that like makes me sweaty you just saying that i'm like i feel like it's like the fear of like okay i'm too like needy or like expecting too much.

You're just a human being who just wants to be on the same page. It's also, it takes a lot to be secure in a relationship. And it sounds like some of the things that you're describing, like you're describing moments where he really like validated you, but with the qualifier behind it. And so it sounds like you maybe feel pulled in both directions of like you have on one hand, all the ways that he is really kind of showing up as the ready to be boyfriend.

But then you also have these underlying ways where you don't aren't fully able to trust it and receive it. And like that's such a difficult position to be in. I just went through something like this and all of my girlfriends who are either dating, whether they're like in a relationship or just meeting new people, like this is the common struggle that everyone's going through of like wanting something, wanting to stand up for what you deserve. But then just like you said, like don't want to push him away. Don't want to be too much. Like going to be the cool chill girl.

And it's like you're balancing this fricking tightrope and it's impossible. Yeah. Also, it doesn't sound like communication is your favorite thing in the world. It doesn't sound like it's his either. So this is a new relationship,

but you have to be honest with yourself about compatibility as well. So it seems they're going to be something you have to challenge yourself to get better at and then someone's got to take charge. Or maybe you guys aren't super compatible. Maybe your best match would be someone who has a strength in something like this. Who's just like, Hey, let's get it out.

Let's talk about it. Let's just, I see you're struggling. Let's, let's just sit down and talk. Not everyone's good with that. I'm sure you bring a lot of like great characteristics to any relationship you're going to be in and every relationship you're going to be having your strengths and your weaknesses. And obviously you want to find people that kind of help balance each other out. It's not our partner's job to carry the weight or fix us. But it is nice to have a partner that balances out our weaknesses and vice versa. So either we need to figure out how you guys can get on this page,

or maybe there's a recognition of maybe this is as good as he is, and as much as I like him and all these other good things, but like communication is a pretty big deal in relationships and I struggle bringing up things

and it would be nice to have a partner that makes it really, a real comfortable environment to talk. Yeah. So that's something you want to consider too.

Yeah. But for now, I think let's just try to have that conversation and see if, because we're talking, you know, we're talking about the basics here, love languages, you know, what's your love language? What's his love language? What makes you feel loved? And how do you like to love? What makes him feel loved? And how does he like to love? Right now, you're not on the same page.

Like he, does he, could he even answer the question of how you feel loved? Yeah. Could you answer that question? We both know each other's, but it's really funny because like he says his words of affirmation and I'm like, you don't give words of affirmation. But most people, when they say, what's your love language? That's how they, their first answer is how they feel loved. Yeah.

And that's, and so I tried to do that a lot in the beginning. Like I'm, I'm not a words of affirmation person. So I was like really trying to, and, um, but I didn't get anything in return. So I was like, okay, I'm making you feel real good here. But like, so what's your level here questioning how you feel? Did you, it was yours words of affirmation. Like, what did you say to him? Physical touch.

Okay. And I feel like he did that really well in the beginning as well. But now he's pulled back on that a lot. physical touch okay and i feel like he did that really well in the beginning as well but now he's pulled back on that a lot like our last few dates have ended with like a hug and a peck goodbye and like nothing more you know not holding hands nothing like that yeah i think we just have to you offering some vulnerability of being like listen i i have a tendency of pulling back when i feel like someone else is pulling back. And maybe that's just me, but like, I'm just sensing this. Like, that's also your gut

talking. Like, you're not crazy. Like, you know, you know, you just defined a relationship two weeks ago. You guys should be like all over each other. Right. Everyone's different. But like, you know, what you're sensing is, I don't know what's going on, but you're not, something's going on. Yeah. You know's going on yeah you know and maybe it could be maybe he's just processing it maybe he hasn't been in a relationship in a long time and he's just like having not cold feet but just a little anxiety i don't know and that could be normal and he can get over that anxiety but you both you guys you're gonna have to find a way to like help each other work through this anxiety because like you guys both pulling away and not communicating this is

like a disaster waiting to happen well yeah i was talking to my friend i'm like i'm pretty sure if i just don't text him he's just never gonna text me again like we haven't talked in three days neither of us are do you really feel that way is that like like you truly feel that way are you just like making a joke because if you feel that way because i mean it has been three days we haven't talked he knew i got home yesterday from out of town so your new boyfriend who you've died in a relationship with defined a relationship two weeks ago you haven't spoken with in three days no we haven't talked since friday do you have any idea what he's doing right now do you know where your kids are do you have any idea what he's doing right now no i mean i think he's at home yeah let's just let's just text him and just be like hey let's

start there just say hey i mean yeah how's it going be like i mean it's the fact you haven't in three days i think if you frame the whole conversation as like, are we compatible as opposed to like, one person needs to do this, the other person is entitled to do that, then like, I think it's fair to say like, for me, someone who I'm compatible with like needs to take initiative because you've been showing all the initiative. And again, in terms of not feeling secure in a relationship, like that's a huge factor in it. And so I think it's like maybe i don't know

maybe in this text trying to like plant the seed of like an overall thing of what this conversation is about so that way he can have a little bit of time to like think about it without getting too much into it via text yeah i would start with like hey hope you had a great weekend i see that we're doing this thing again and i i don't want it to like yeah just kind of acknowledge what already happened you guys like stopped talking and you haven't talked to your new boyfriend in three days so i don't i definitely don't think you should be like send them the what's up text kind of like what's going on i really think that you should be like hey hope you had a great weekend i'd love to see you this week and i I hate feeling distance around you.

Do you have an idea? Yeah, okay. No bad ideas in brainstorming. This is just a starting point. But what if it was like, hey, to be totally honest, I've been kind of hoping you would send me a text to ask about how my weekend was. Yeah, I don't know.

What would you, if you made, if you got a text like that. Yeah, Nicole, I don't know. This doesn't sound too good to me, if I'm being completely honest with you, like if, if I were in your shoes, I'd send a text, something, something somewhere along the lines of like, Hey, we haven't spoken three days and we're supposed to be in a relationship. I'm not really sure where to go from here. Do you have a minute to talk? I'm not really sure if I would like do the whole in-person thing. Cause if I'm being honest with you, this doesn't sound like something that you need to waste your time to get ready and go get dinner, you know, just like a quick phone call and like, Hey, like we, we just, we said that

we're in a relationship about two weeks ago. And in those two weeks, we haven't spoken for the last three, like, just, just be honest. Like what's going on? Like, is this still something you want to do? If his answer is yes and it's like well why aren't we talking you know it's been three days if the answer is no well then you know that like you know i you know on to the next you know well i was just gonna say then i like if his answer is yes then i can change it to like okay do you want to get together i actually after hearing nate talk i actually think that's a perfect answer because i think we're i'm trying to give i think we're giving a little bit too much benefit doubt you

haven't talked to this guy in three days so like kind of like hey we haven't talked in three days like is you know whatever whatever you said was perfect like what's where are we where are we going from here yeah if he says yes the only thing i would disagree the only thing i would change i would adjust then i would like try to turn it positive a little bit, be like, well, I'd love to see you. Great, I was hoping you would say that. I'd love to see you early this week, and I would love it if we could just talk

about how we can better get on the same page and avoid these gaps. Or just, I want to just figure out, I'm just a little confused about our expectations, how much time we should or shouldn't spend together, and'd love to like talk with you about that in person and if he's not down if that's like too much for him like trust me this is not this guy's not worth your time yeah i hate that you've been sitting waiting for him to text you for three days yeah because it sounds like maybe you have a little bit yeah and that's not fair to you i i think like n said, we shoot him a text.

Say what you say, Nate. Something along the lines of like, hey, I know that we spoke two weeks ago about how we want to be in a relationship or that we're in a relationship, sorry, but we haven't spoken to each other in three days. I'm not entirely sure how to take that. And then just see kind of- Yeah. I'm not sure how to take that.

Is this something you still want yeah just i honestly let's just get to it let's just right and then if he says yes then try to turn it into a positive i was hope good i'm glad you feel that way how about like i can't wait to see you but i'd love to talk about how we can just make sure we just get on the same page i don't want either of us to feel confused about how much time we spend or don't spend together. Okay. Make it about us if he says yes.

And if he says, if he gives you the, oh, I'm just blah, blah, blah. Honestly, if he gives you any of that, I wouldn't bother with any long drawn out conversation. Okay. Sounds like you've put the effort here. It doesn't seem like this relationship's like headed in the right direction.

If you do start talking again, you got to challenge yourself and each other to communicate more. If this doesn't work out, I don't think like you're losing anything special, but try to challenge yourself to, you know, just get better at those, what should be kind of baseline conversations.

And, you know, when you're out there dating, you know, some, it might be like dating a real chatty Kathy might get annoying, but they might help communicate too. Someone who's easygoing on dates. If you share a vulnerability and if they don't share one back, red flag. So early in dating, maybe not the first date, don't tell them everything about yourself, but you're on a second or third date with a new guy and you want to be like, is this guy someone I can communicate with? Share a vulnerability, you know,

nothing super personal. And the appropriate response of any human who's mature enough to like communicate in a relationship would say something like, oh, I'm sorry, I had to go through that. And then offer maybe something else. They would empathize. And it might be someone like you,

you know, at this point, like you could really benefit from having a partner who sees that as a strength in themselves and not a weakness. Yeah. And that might be something that you might want to look for in the future if it doesn't work out with Mr. Ivan talk to you in three days. Okay. Great. All right. Was this helpful? Yeah, very helpful. Thank you. All right. Well, keep us posted. We very much want to know where this goes. We're invested in your journey. And don't tell yourself you're a burden. You're not a burden. These are basic needs and expectations that you are entitled, anyone is entitled to. You shouldn't feel confused in a relationship. You shouldn't. Yeah.

And if you do, it happens, but you should at least feel like it's safe to address. Because you know you would confused in a relationship. You shouldn't. Yeah. You know, and if you do, it happens, but it's, you, you should at least feel like it's safe to address. Cause you know, you would do that for him. You know, if there were things like that for him, you would do it in a heartbeat.

It's like, Oh my God, let's talk about it. Come on over. That's great. Yeah. A thousand percent. Yeah.

Yeah. So you should be able to expect the same in return. Yeah. And that's a flaw in him, not you. If, if it doesn't happen. All right. All right. Thank you guys so much. I appreciate it keep it posted best of luck okay good luck we're rooting for you

bye thank you nate thank you again i know it wasn't easy i really appreciate your vulnerability man it's been a pleasure getting to know you and i wish you nothing but the best in the future and i hope you continue down this path for healing and just thanks man i appreciate having me yeah thank you any final thoughts you want to share anything or no no i mean i think this is this is like weirdly like therapeutic so i appreciate you having me here yeah i can't thank you enough man you've been very generous with your uh vulnerability man thanks i really appreciate it you're a role model to to men out there truly i really i mean you gotta be choked up when you got choked up and i think it's okay when men cry

you know so um and you're gorgeous there we go final one so hot uh thanks for listening guys don't forget to send those questions at ask nick at cast meMe.com. Cast with a K. For all things Ask Nick, we'll be back next week. Big week lined up. Get ready. It'll be exciting. And don't forget our special update show. We had some texting office updates, Ask Nick updates. That's tomorrow on Friday.

Big special. You guys have been asking for it. So make sure you download it and check it out. Hope you enjoy. See you tomorrow.