The Viall Files - E474 Bachelorette Recap w/ Greg Grippo

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelorette Recap Edition! Today we are joined by Bachelor Nation’s Greg Grippo to dive into the last few episodes of this season of the Bachelorette, leading up to the ever approaching and exciting finale! We kick things off by recapping our reactions to the interview we did with Nayte, now that the dust has settled. We share our thoughts about the breakup and realize that two good and well intentioned people can have a toxic relationship. We then get into the episode itself, picking up with the fight between Rachel and Zach. We break down age being used as an excuse, a smile that reveals true feelings, and how leading someone on is different than saying they’re the problem. We also talk about the night date with Rachel and Aven, how the guys are only getting half of the time they usually would, and how Aven tried his best to connect with Rachel in conflict. We also talk about if we think anyone on the show is reading Reddit threads about them, and how Clayton is still being used as the butt of a joke even though people are making the same mistakes. We then share some predictions of what we think will be talked about at the live segment, and how next season is really their only chance to have two Bachelors at once.  “If you have to break hearts, don’t make them feel like it was their fault.”  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Draftkings: Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app NOW and use promo code VIALL to get TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS in FREE bets INSTANTLY when you place a five-dollar bet on any football game! That’s code VIALL—only at DraftKings Sportsbook—an Official Sports Betting Partner of the NFL. Minimum age and eligibility restrictions apply. See show notes for details. Wildgrain: Hungry already? For a limited time, you can get $30 off the first box - PLUS free Croissants in every box - when you go to http://www.Wildgrain.com/VIALL to start your subscription. If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL/IN/LA/MI/NJ/PA/WV/WY), 1-800-NEXT STEP (AZ), 1-800-522-4700 (CO/NH), 888-789-7777/visit http://ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-BETS OFF (IA), 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY), visit OPGR.org (OR), call/text TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN), or 1-888-532-3500 (VA). 21+ (18+ NH/WY). Physically present in AZ/CO/CT/IL/IN/IA/LA(select parishes)/MI/NH/NJ/ NY/OR/PA/TN/VA/WV/WY only. New customer offer void in NH/OR/ONT-CA. $200 in Free bets: New customers only. Valid 1 per new customer. Min. $5 deposit. Min $5 wager. $200 issued as eight (8) $25 free bets. Ends 9/19/22 @ 8pm. Early Win: 1 Early Win Token issued per eligible game. Opt in req. Token expires at start of eligible game. Min moneyline bet $1. Wagering limits apply. Wagers placed on both sides of moneyline will void bet. Ends 1/8/23 @ 8pm ET. See terms at sportsbook dot draftkings dot com slash football terms. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @greggrippo See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another amazing episode of the Vile Files Bachelor Rep Recap Edition. And boy, do we have a lot to get into. Greg Grippo is with me in studio in New York. Allie and Amanda are in LA. And together we are going to give you the best Batch the Recap of all time. Greg, how are you in life? I'm doing well.

Doing well. Great. Like I said, excited for this new chapter in my life. I'm pumped. All right. Greg's excited for a new chapter in my life. I'm pumped. All right. Greg's excited for a new chapter in his life. We also recorded an intro for our Ask Nick episode that we'll be dropping next week, Monday.

And I asked Greg how his heart is, what's next for him. And so, you know, tune in to that next Monday, this little tease. Before we get into the episode, just a reminder, the Nate episode is out there. I love that. So many people have enjoyed it and all the nice things they had to say about the episode and specifically Nate. I know a lot of people had asked me for my thoughts on the episode, but I kind of wanted to have things kind of get out there and play out before I shared any of that. I mean, ultimately, I think the big takeaway for the episode was, you know, I think it's just a valuable lesson in remembering that you can have two good people who, you know, very much love each other and want the best for each other to be in a relationship, and they might not be right for each other. And you could have two good people who very much might be in love, who might even bring out the best in each other. And you can have two good people be in a toxic

relationship. I'm just glad for people that they were able to, you know, just hear from Nate. I just know it sounded like he went through a lot, just him personally. And I also think it's just a good reminder for people that, you know, you can be someone who ultimately ends the relationship and you can still have a broken heart

and you can still be really sad and you can still be the one who has to heal. And, you know, we talk a lot about relationships on the show in general, whether it's the Ask Nick or Bachelor Recap or just our Going Deeper episodes. And I think, you know, it's always important to remember that, again, especially if you're the one leaving the relationship, we talk about setting boundaries and protecting our mental health and sometimes making the very difficult decision to remove yourself from something that you might really want deep down to work, but it just might not be it. And I think it's important to have

empathy for those people. And like I said, I have a ton of empathy for Nate just because, you know, starting a relationship is challenging in general. And someone like Nate, who was in love for the first time, that can be a very challenging and difficult experience. I mean, being in love for the first time is exciting, but it's also scary, you know, because you really wanted to make it work, but it's your first time and your first time doing anything can be, you know, difficult and have its challenges. And then when you combine the, you know, aspects of bachelor nation, right. And the pressures that come with it. I know a lot of people obviously fans of michelle out there i think you know maybe wanted to hear um you know maybe nate speak more on like the role

he played in the relationship but i didn't get a sense from nate um at all that he was really blaming anyone for why they broke up i mean mostly nate was answering specific questions that i asked a lot of which was centered around, um, obviously him breaking up with Michelle and just responding to the things that Michelle had herself put out there. Like, I'm not sure why Michelle, uh, the only thing that got out there was her mentioning, uh, on her show and through her friend Caitlin on Kayla's show, how she, how she felt blindsided and things like that. But that certainly didn't do anything to kind of not play into the narrative that, you know, that narrative that somehow, you know, Nate didn't want

it to work as much as Michelle or that he didn't put in the effort or that he was just some sort of fuck boy. And I can really, you know, again, try to put yourself in Nate's shoes, being someone who really cared about this relationship and this person and trying to constantly, or having to hear that about how much you don't care. And I think the impression I got from Nate is just trying to get that message out of how much this relationship meant to him and how much he cared about Michelle, despite it not working out and its challenges that it can face. And again, so I'm not sure why Michelle put those things out there, but I found that Nate was just really responding to that. Because in all relationships, power dynamics matter and they play a role. And, you know,

bachelor people are very much aware of their brands and how they're perceived by the audience. and how they're perceived by the audience. And that often plays a role in these relationships. And I think the important thing in all relationships is to, you know, you'll have to ultimately work as a team. And at times if, you know, it's very easy, I think for bachelor people in general to, you know, pay too much attention to what people are saying about you, you know, whether it's support or criticism,

and that can bleed into relationships. And when that happens, ultimately, I think things can get pretty ugly fast. And so at the end of the day, I just hope the best for Michelle and for Nate. And I'm glad Nate ultimately got to express how much he cared about the relationship and her. And again, I imagine it must be very challenging to have a lot of people, you know, question your character

or doubt your intentions. And if nothing else, my biggest takeaway is that you had two people as much as they might've cared for the relationship, maybe just shouldn't be together. And I wish him nothing but the best, but if you haven't listened to it, do yourself a favor, check it out. There's certainly a lot there. And any final thoughts on that, ladies? Or did I cover that efficiently? Wonderful.

I think that was well said. Yeah. All right. Well, let's get into the episode. We start with Rachel. Rachel, this episode was wild. I was drinking my morning coffee, and I was in just shock the whole time. Yeah.

Yeah, Rachel, I mean, it starts with Rachel picking up where she left off, having a confrontation with Zach at the rose ceremony. Yeah. What do you have to say, Greg, before we, before I share what I have to say? Or ladies, feel free to chime in with your, your thoughts as well. Well, personally watching today and just like seeing what I've seen throughout the season, I really feel for Rachel. Interesting. Yeah. And it might be, I don't know if, is that an unpopular take right now? Uh, i have less empathy for rachel than you do i have empathy for all leads because it really is a challenge but um i think it's a really tough situation for her and

it's hard for me not to feel for her i mean she's one going throughout the whole entire season the episodes that i was seeing that she was like getting rejected at the rose ceremony and i mean after that being the lead i'm sure you can just be in your head throughout the rest of the season like who's gonna leave next and on top of that like probably feeling in the back of her head like you know Gabby's probably having like these such strong connections because they because the guys were saying like no I want Gabby so in her head she's dealing with just like you know a lot of uncertainty so seeing her top three guy just be like so as a reminder obviously like in their fantasy suite we didn't get to get the meat

of the episode of the conversation but clearly it'll be said last week that rachel was um yeah the next morning she seemed like things have changed and obviously you we we heard that conversation about like age was mentioned about how zach might not be ready for marriage right and so the impression was obviously that it seemed like rachel was coming up with excuses of why she wanted to end the relationship with zach rather than like maybe her feelings had just changed or she liked someone more but instead of just like letting that happen where it's just like you know sometimes again when you break up with someone you're going to hurt someone's feelings and you just have to be willing to be the bad guy in that moment,

even temporary. And it seemed like Rachel was unwilling to ever be the bad guy. And as a result of not wanting to be the bad guy is coming across like the bad guy who's, who seems to be like blaming someone else for something they can't control. And then obviously like, you know, Zach seemed to want to address that. But also maybe maybe to consider like and not to play devil's advocate but

like to think about kind of the thing that zach the refrain he kept having about the night was he was like she wasn't being herself she wasn't being the bachelorette so i also think there's a chance that maybe like in the way that that conversation was initiated rachel was maybe trying to and it wasn't going well and then she felt very like trapped and kind of like reverted to platitudes and saying stuff that was kind of like vague and meant to like just like appease him in the moment and that's why he was then like oh this was the most inauthentic conversation totally yeah totally um and so obviously you have Zach pull Rachel aside and seem to further address that. I did not love her response for someone who was like been saying that he was one of her top picks felt like she cut that cord really

quickly. I was I was a little thrown off by that as well. Like I I guess I don't know everything that was shown being you know one of those people that has been in the final three. But it seemed like very it seemed very fast just to like go right to the rose ceremony and be like okay yeah that's like that's it in my head i was like okay well we knew it wasn't zach then like i i just felt like it was for certain in my head as soon as like she got back to the rose ceremony i was like oh shit like is she gonna like there's two roses there is she gonna like just say well i just want tino for next week i didn't know if if it was gonna be aven or zach i think i was like thrown off by that.

Yeah. And I think that it was shown then that like she clearly was sending Zach home. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what was weird for me is when she came back into the rose ceremony and she was, you know,

describing what happened to Tino and Avon and she said that Zach questioned her character. Like that was the summary of kind of what she gave them. Kind of. I was like, we didn't see him question your character. I that was the summary of kind of what she gave them. I was like, we didn't see him question your character, I don't think. Well, I mean, you know, he said, I didn't feel like you were being real with me. I don't think that's really an attack on someone's character. I mean, I think that's a criticism of a situation. I feel like in reality TV world, there's like a few different tiers and it's like,

I felt disrespected. I felt like my integrity was questioned. I felt like in reality TV world there's like a few different tiers and it's like I felt disrespected I felt like my integrity was questioned I felt like my character like you know there's like these kind of like specific tiers that we use for like feeling offended or feeling like people are not picking up what we're putting down I just feel like the phrase like questioning my character that would go along with like

if he had pulled her aside and been like a Luke P situation where he's talking about her sleeping with other people like that to go along with like if he had pulled her aside and been like a luke p situation where he's talking about her sleeping with other people like that to me would be like a questioning of character and i felt like he was bringing up just specifically their relationship and the doubts he was having it felt a little icky to me only because you know again having lived it it's very easy to realize you often forget that you're on a TV show. Like you do sometimes and you don't, right? And in this moment, when Rachel went from having her conversation with Zach to talking to Tino and Avon, it felt to me like she forgot it was a TV show in the sense

that, you know, she went from this conversation with Zach, which was ultimately like Zach trying to like stand his ground and get clarity. And Rachel is kind of nodding yes to her biggest reaction was after Zach was like, I'm going to go home. She seemed a bit tiffed that she wasn't going to be able to send him home. Almost that Zach was sending himself home. Like that's the thing she reacted to the most. Like she looked off to the side. You could tell she was like looking for her producer, being like, oh wait,

is this guy leaving me? And like she seemed annoyed by that even though it was clear to your point, Greg, that she was going to send him home. And then she goes back in the room and instead of just like saying, you know,

you know, ultimately it decided that Zach and I weren't the right match. She like tried to tell Tino and Avon, like she tried to throw Zach under the bus,

you know? And to me, it kind of reeked of like, you could, you could almost saw what Rachel was doing, not realizing that we were going to see this conversation between her and Zach, that, that Tino and Avon were going to be able to see this conversation between her and Zach. And at no time, at least from what we were shown was, was like, this was a guy who was just trying to like have a very respectful conversation with someone he wasn't on the same page with. And then to your point, Ali, that's definitely not like questioning someone's character.

It's just being like, hey, it just didn't feel real. It just didn't feel like I was getting an honest answer. Maybe there's a reason for it. Can you explain it to me? Like maybe there's like something I'm not seeing. And, and, but like she clearly, you can tell, and I think this theme of this episode with Rachel is like, listen, we've all joked that we think she's going to pick Tino, right? We've all joked from like the time Tino got on a limo that she's going to pick Tino. We've, when she's with Tino, we see the embraces, we see the comfort

level. We see the intangibles that we haven't seen with some of these other guys. And yes, it's tough to be the lead. I have a ton of empathy. Unfortunately, part of your job is to lead people on and that sucks. But you don't get to try to win every breakup. You know, you don't get to try to be the good guy in every breakup. You don't get to try to be the good guy in every breakup. And if you're the one who has to break hearts, you don't get to try to make them feel like it was their fault. And I think there was a lot of that this episode with Rachel, both with Zach and Avon trying to spin it

as if it was like the reason she's ending the relationship is because something they're doing wrong, as opposed to maybe it's just like, A, realizing that there's a lack of compatibility, or B, maybe you're forcing an issue that doesn't need or shouldn't be forced. And so, yeah, that to me was kind of the overall theme, and we'll get into the details. But like with the Zach, I definitely did not like that she tried to throw him under the bus. The NFL's opening week was action-packed, and it's just getting started. Whoo, baby, I'm excited. Get ready for week two of touchdowns, big plays, and even bigger wins. With DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL,

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Or you can use the promo code vial at checkout i just feel like we gotta give her like it's hard for me after the way i left and like the shit show that happened like zach zach the way he ended things the way he went about it like he did it so maturely and it was night and day between what happened on my season and with them but i just think like given like the leads and like like for instance like i didn't know i had no idea like michael a left before i did and what katie was going through and for like zach it's i feel like we got to give rachel some grace because of how much her guards probably up and how much she's trying to protect

her heart and how much like people have just been like kind of just like bashing it you know week by week you know i'm out i'm out i'm now i'm gonna go to gabby and it's probably like has any bachelorette like gone through something like this before so i feel like this has been just like the toughest road for this girl yeah no you're you're being very gracious and like listen i do think it's incredibly tough to be the lead unless and yes gabby and rachel i've definitely been put through it i couldn't imagine staying next to a guy and like having them just be like yeah this guy i'm going to this guy i'm going to this guy it's just it's just one of those things too and i think some there's some resonance for even from like the n and Michelle breakup of it all too it's just like my biggest thing too on this show and I know you have we we want to be

fans of people we want to root for our people but I think you know we have to make sure we're we're being fair in our criticism both ways right and and last episode you still had Rachel bringing up Clayton you still had Rachel and gabby throwing clayton on clayton under the bus yeah for his decisions as the bachelor right and they're they're on the the doorsteps of fantasy suite week when they're bringing this up and i guess my i guess my my criticism of rachel has less to do with her decisions in these situations and more to do with the fact that like she seems to have a hard time still having empathy for Clayton, but she's making a lot of the same mistakes. So it's like if you're going to criticize the guy, then like I'm surprised she doesn't have more empathy for Clayton now and therefore like empathy for herself because of how what she's going through. like empathy for herself because of how what she's going through and she's so willing to like still want to play the victim when it comes to clayton but also wants to remain above the fray as the

bachelorette and to me that's where the the warts stand out a little bit that being said i don't like it's very difficult what she's going through and i think every lead goes through it and kind of recognizes, you know, they could have done it better. And that's the thing too, about all these things we talk about and like some where the bat trick can get frustrating too. And again, reverting back

to like the Nate and Michelle episode. It's just like, you can be fans of people and have your favorite person. Like there's not a single person listening to this podcast. There's not a single person in this room or Allie and Amanda. Like we can be good people and have to apologize for situations

and relationships. We can, we've all been manipulative before. We've all been a little toxic. We've all had to say, listen, that was out of character for me. I'm sorry. Right. And sometimes when we watch the show, we want to put people in a box and have them just be good or bad. You know, if we see them make one bad mistake, et cetera, et cetera. I, you know, we don't know any of these people. Absolutely. And I'm or bad you know if we see them make one bad mistake etc etc i you know we don't know any of these people absolutely and i'm sure you know rachel and aven and zach you know like these are difficult situations to to the to to come across i'd love to see rachel have a little bit more empathy even for clayton as it relates to herself and I'm curious if if if we I'm curious if we'll hear Rachel recognize that as time goes on if she is she gets to reflect back on this

experience between what happened with her and what she is going through with with her guys on the season right I felt like this episode a lot of it both with Gabby and Rachel like a lot of the drama centered around engagement and whether or not that would or wouldn't happen. I'm curious, like one, does this feel like a more recent era of the show where engagement is more of a question as opposed to the expectation? And two, do you think this is a situation where potentially bachelorettes feel less powerful than a bachelor might feel as like the person who is expected to propose? Yes and no. It's interesting. And I was actually thinking about this this morning. I know I've mentioned this on the show,

but I distinctly remember being, like my fantasy suite with Andy, right? Way back when. And it was at some point in the fantasy. And I remember saying, listen, I have no doubts about my feelings towards you and how excited I am about this relationship. But like, and again, keep in mind, this relationship but like and again keep in mind this is me like

still not really knowing exactly what when I was in or what's going on I just remember saying to her I am down to just like date you like you know like I was saying I'm fine with however this goes especially if it doesn't end in engagement I thought I was like reassuring her and I'll never forget her look she gave me which was like absolutely disgust. And it was like, and she said, I'll never forget it. She's like, I don't want to be the first Bachelorette who's not proposed to. Now, has there been since then

a Bachelorette who left not engaged? I don't, has that happened? I don't believe there has. I could be missing it but certainly at that time there wasn't and then Caitlin obviously

and then Rachel Jojo I'm trying to think Becca yeah I don't think there's well Claire I guess but

she was Claire got engaged Claire left with a ring Taysha got engaged wait yeah I forgot about that I forgot about that

sorry Claire feels like a distant memory yeah okay. Okay. Yeah. So I guess everyone. If there is. Yeah. But the point of bringing it up is clearly there is that pressure. I think it's an applied pressure. Maybe it's a societal pressure. Right. But to your point, Amanda, I do think the bachelorettes feel that pressure. I think it plays a role into their decision. I just don't think we've seen this before where like really majority of the top six, three on each side have all expressed a fear of engagement. Yeah. I think there's definitely a theme also like maybe it's a coincidence or maybe it's not, but like the fact that these guys,

the fact that you have two bat charrettes, these guys have had less time. There's just more other stuff going on you know they've and that matters you know they these guys are feeling less connected um to these relationships that you know every day does matter and so the difference between like for example it might have been cut out but i might i don't think it was aven's last date was just like rachel going to aven's hotel room to have this conversation in my in my day like you had the day portion in the night portion right i had a day portion with caitlin and andy for that that last chance date and they had the night portion and even just had the night portion and i think a lot of these dates have been like cut in half because of production schedules, because of limited time.

And you can still make a TV show of it because at the end of the day, you're still only airing a certain percentage of the dates. But in terms of real time, these guys' time I think is getting like cut in half and it was already nuts, right? And so I know the show obviously is about engagement as they say and there's always like these memes about like oh you know what you signed up for and like do you know

what show this is but like these are human beings like being asked to make incredible life choices and i like for example like aven you know like and if even like i thought he was so well-spoken and communicated so well to Rachel in this moment of conflict. And I thought he made a ton of sense. I was really impressed by Avon. But to me, you could pretty much tell that once things went well with Tino and Rachel's parents,

to me, you knew exactly what Rachel was going to do. She had solidified her decision. Once she got the blessing from Tino's parents, that was the last thing she needed. And she was going there to break up with Avon, right? Do you think so? Yes, you don't? I don't know.

I felt like she wanted to hear what he had to say. I don't know. I felt like she wanted to like hear what he had to say. I don't know. The way she was reacting is she seemed like very heartbroken. I thought it was an incredible performance by Rachel. I think she faked the whole thing. What do you think she had wanted to hear from Avin? Like, what do you think Avin could have said that would have spoken to her areas of hurt and concern? I felt like, you know, whenever like a talk happens like that, there's

a goal with one of these talks. Like, I don't think that they were just meeting just to meet. So in my head, I felt like it was, she was waiting for like a last, you know, kind of effort from him to like say like, no, like I've had time to like think about it. Like, I think that maybe in the back of her mind or heart, she was hoping that he had changed his mind and like had time to sit on it for a little bit. And I think, I don't know, to me when I was just watching it, I was like, you know what? She really, really seems into him. Like she's saying like, you know, if it was like this was in the real world, there would be no doubt.

But he kept saying, my feelings haven't changed. I'm so confused. Am I? And she wrapped up their last conversation saying, this isn't going on a bad note.

Everything's good. That's how she wrapped up their conversation after meeting her family. So is it then just strictly about the engagement rather than the best person for you? That's what she made it seem like. Now, suddenly she's saying it's not ending on a

bad note. She sees him the next day and it's like I was blindsided by how you left the conversation. You walked into the car. Her friends kind of set her up, obviously. Right. Like her friends made it seem like you can always tell like which which people watch the show in terms of your family and friends and which people don't. And clearly Rachel's friends watch the show. Like, you can tell, like, they were, like, getting into character about, like, I'm going to ask you the tough questions. And, like, we don't want to freak you out. But, like, you could tell that Rachel's friends were definitely, like, Bachelor fans who have been watching this show. And were like, all right, here, it's our time to, like, you know, check in and be the protective friend.

And so, yeah, they definitely set up Rachel to, like, feel like maybe Avon wasn't being up front with her. Am I the only one who totally understood what Avon was saying? I get both sides. Yeah. No, no, I really felt like I understood what Avon was saying. I think it because of the way that Rachel initially received it it was like in the context of I am with my friends and family like I think I'm showing up being like look at this hot she obviously thinks he's so hot she talks about that all the time she's so proud that she

has this man who loves her after feeling rejected throughout this journey and then to like sit down and be told oh he's not actually going to engage to you, or he's not maybe certain on that. I think the embarrassment of that meant that she could never really process the other things that he was saying because she was just so shaken by that experience of feeling kind of embarrassed and rejected in that micro way,

even though that's not his intention. I think that's kind of been Rachel's biggest problem. It's just like, I have empathy for the challenges she has faced. I've empathy for feeling embarrassed at times or feeling rejected. I get all that. Like these are normal human feelings that we've all would react to, but she has like, as we all do, like we have to start reacting to disappointment and rejection, these things

in a way that doesn't like hurt ourselves. Right. Or like, doesn't like hurt ourselves right or like doesn't like that makes a bad situation worse right and so yeah i i like she won't yeah right she felt embarrassed from her friends and family and let that snowball into something bigger or to me i what i heard from avan was yeah when i said i was ready to get engaged, like I am ready. Like as, as a man at however old he is, he's ready to get engaged. That's why he's here. And then he can see a future with Rachel. But as he's assessing it, like realizing, oh shit, like engagement, I'm supposed to ask you in three days. And oh, by the way, there's still another guy here. And maybe she, you know, like he's

thinking about these things and you know, nothing would like, if you think about it, if you're someone who's like, I'm in love with this person, I know I want to spend the rest of my life with them. This engagement, wow, that's why I'm a little unsure. Him checking it, like Rachel's response to me would almost make me feel more disconnected, you know, because Rachel could have said, all right, like Rachel's language, the whole conversation, there's a very distinct difference between Rachel's language and Ivan's language. Rachel was using I and me language. She kept referring to her feelings.

How does this look for me? I and me. Those are the words that came out of Rachel's mouth. And Ivan was using us language, me language. He was using like mutual. He was very much talking about their relationship as a team, you know, and you could, he talked about a guy who was trying to make sure that we want, I want us to be on the same page. He's literally saying things like that. And all of Rachel's response were about how this looks for her. How is she supposed to feel? She's

the bachelorette. And it's just like, that is not how you get on the same page and if i'm even that would make me feel less confident about being like taking this huge leap of faith right like rachel could have just as easily said you know i hear you i understand like she has to start empathizing with these guys just like clayton didn't empathize with her or ever take a time to put himself in and in their shoes i don't think rachel spent any time ever thinking about like the like what this is like for them and you saw that very much with aven and i think that that just almost made a disconnect the reason why i said i think it was a performance i sent you guys that screenshot she's literally smiling at aven after they hugged as if like like to me that smile was a smile that she was supposed to

wait until she got back to her hotel room knowing that she just had tino left and like that to me that smile was this like she's literally smiled like she's looking at avon smiling at him he looks distraught and it was almost like she was just like let me see this photo look at this photo i did notice that where it felt like a weight was maybe lifted off of her shoulders after she broke up with Ava. I mean, it's so hard knowing that you're going to have to break up with these people. I have a ton of empathy for Rachel knowing that she has to like, you know, she's got to break up with these guys before she can get to the person she wants to be with. And she's going to have to lead people on. have to lead people on but i think it's really kind of shitty that she's trying to make these guys feel bad like it's their fault for like trying to check in or just trying to communicate

to her about like their insecurities or about the timeline and you know ultimately she just wants to be with tino i think i think what really bothered her though and i think even handled himself amazingly um and it was really mature the way he went about it um i that's not a breakout look at that photo you know i know it's a still shot but yeah it is and she you have i i just she whenever i see her like on screen i just feel like she's always i i i don't know. I feel like I can't speak about that photo. Like it just. I'm glad. I mean, listen, I think it's great that you have empathy.

I do. And I just feel like I was, I think I have empathy for like the people who are struggling in the show because I struggled mightily with it. And, you know, being in this new phase of my life where now like i'm single i'm in therapy i just feel like i'm like when you get off this show like and he was a couple like phrases like really threw her off like i just got wrapped up in it she wants somebody to be so certain totally she wants somebody to be so certain and to be like that consistent piece so i think it was two parts i felt like he said that he tripped up on his words like that consistent piece so i think it was two parts

i felt like he said that he tripped up on his words like i get it like i don't think he really meant that um and she wants somebody to be so certain about her and as soon as like he wasn't like she just like had to back up a little bit and that wall went up yeah it's possible too but i guess something tells me that after... It went on well with Tino and Rachel's family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the way, shout out to Rachel. I really like Rachel's dad.

I know. He got big Tony. Me too. Really, really like big Tony. Just a really teddy bear. I like his questions. I like how he was very specific. Just really, really solid guy.

He just cut straight to it with Avon specifically too like he was like you know what you seem like a great guy my daughter's happy but there's gonna be another guy sitting in front of me here tomorrow so what's gonna make me remember you i was like okay tony yeah i love that right i thought that was a good question i think she knew what she was doing and i don don't have a problem with that. I just think Avin definitely tripped up on his words. But she didn't seem like a person who was interested in finding resolution in that conflict. Right. At all.

And Avin didn't pitch a perfect game, but you could... When you're in conflict with someone that you want to resolve something with, and I know we all like to wait to speak, and I know sometimes when we fight, we want to win a fight but like aven's energy was so like constructive and constructive and welcoming and slow and and like very empathetic and if he made he tried to create an atmosphere that if the other person on the other end was interested in having some sort of like understanding he made it a very safe space to have that conversation and she just wasn't having it the thing i was so struck by in

the conversation was that i don't know if this was in the initial one or in the follow-up like breakup one when there was one point where he sort of like in being expressive raised his voice and rachel was like don't yell at me and just the way he very quickly corrected I thought was really admirable like I think he did an amazing job emotionally regulating and like responding in the moment despite the fact that he's having his own feelings like comes rushing to the surface of like always being like what does my partner need right now and how can I make sure that I have this overarching like executive functioning to control it totally I mean let's just keep it real here. I think it's, you know, these guys also know they're being filmed too, right?

And, and they're being asked to like deal with some real crazy emotions and, and their feelings are also being triggered. And to do that in a way, especially as men who like need to be mindful of their energy and how, if they are getting a frustrated and upset to like make sure they're not, you know, like, yeah, they're, they're mindful of that. And that can be, you know, like you're, there's a lot you're dealing with, with too. And I thought I even really did a good job of that and own that too. But like, that's such a, that's why I thought Avin did so well because you could tell he was really struggling. And I really commend him for like, listen, I think to me in that conversation with Rachel, that's all I ever wanted to see.

Like if I had a daughter, right? And she was dating a guy like Avon, that would make me feel very, very good about the fact that she's dating him. Because like you could tell that he was really trying to connect with her during conflict. He was trying to find common ground. Also standing his ground and trying to want to be heard.

But like I thought he was really respectful of that. And yeah, I think I was really impressed by Avon there. Go back and look at Rachel. She's smiling, hugging Avin. And to me, like, I remember that look and that look is relief of finally being done with that breakup and being able to focus on the person you want, which I have no criticism of. But to me, it just showed that like, clearly, you know, she knew what she was doing. She knew she wanted to end this relationship and I wish she wouldn't have made even because I think even was really confused, you know, and I think she wanted to make him feel

like he did something wrong with the end of the day. She was always going to break up with him. And that there's a pattern there. Cause she did that with Zach and we don't know for sure if that's what she did, but it certainly seems like there's a little bit of a pattern there, but maybe, maybe you're right, Greg. I don't know. It's a hot take. a pattern there but maybe maybe you're right greg i don't know it's a hot take i mean i again like the way i ended it it was very easy for people to be like he wanted a way out he wanted a way out i hear you but in reality i didn't and it was a crazy ass time for me and i had no idea what i was doing at that time and looking back on i'm like holy shit that's that's definitely it's definitely possible so it's it's it's just

hard for me to like judge people in that moment i hear you and we always reserve the right to be wrong with this show because we haven't we don't know these people we're just responding to what we see on the show i do think your situation is different than rachel's in the sense that like if avan was her guy she wouldn't have she wouldn't be smiling after giving him a hug she's down to the final two she's got a front runner. You know what I'm saying? Like, and if she, if Ava was her front runner, like she claimed, I just don't think she would be smiling about this.

Especially when a guy's like, I want to spend, he was literally like, I know I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I know I want to do that. I do want a little bit more certainty about like how your feelings are for me and then our compatibility. And maybe he wasn't saying all the perfect things but he was very clear that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with Rachel and if you're Rachel and he's your he's your top person I just don't believe

a world and when she's a ending that relationship and be smiling at him like sending him home like I just don't buy that from Rachel. She did say before going, before the whole shit went down with her family and Avin that she envisioned it being him at the end. And I think that was very believable, especially given all of the disruption with Tino's family and the way she felt not accepted by them. So do you believe that there was a point in time

where Avin was genuinely the front runner or do you think it's always clearly been Tino? I think that was a lie. I don't believe it. Because if she was like i just and greg's right like we all handle emotions differently i do think and i but like i i personally for me have a hard time thinking that she would walk away from this you know and again comparing to your situation like to me you remind me more g of of of Zack in this scenario where Zack was this like he noticed a shift right and and some he went from like you know these guys don't get to see these these other connections yeah and and usually

the lead can be really locked in but ever like towards the end I think it's harder for the lead to fake right and then the unfortunate the lead is asked to fake these things and they don't want to be accused of being led on because they don't really want to lead anyone on. It's like, I've, again, tons of empathy because like they're asked to do an impossible thing, but sometimes you just have to own it, right? Rather than make the other person feel like they're doing something wrong. And in your shoes, like you recognize that with Katie and, you know, granted, you definitely didn't handle it as well as Zach. Yeah, I was going to say a little bit of a different delivery. Yeah. Like Zach was definitely

was way more gracious than you were. Um, but that all being said, like, I guess I see that more comparison, but I, I think it's great that you have empathy for, for Rachel knowing that like we don't know we are not in their heads. And that's why I also think like the age thing is just like, I don't know. I don't think that's ever like a reason like a thing to throw on someone because he's definitely mature i think beyond his years for what is he 26 or 25 he's like two months younger than rachel like he is so much more mature than me and i was at 25 jesus i see him like at the grill with his kids running around by the pool like he's got real mature dad energy that guy is ready he is yeah father energy written all over him yeah he's ready for a fam yeah he's either ready or just

hasn't like been broken enough that's true something i flagged though with rachel's conversations this episode and i mean it's just like personal preference and maybe in her way she was just trying to elicit empathy from her guys. But she kept saying phrases like, how do you think this makes me feel? Or how do you think this makes me look? Or it was all these questions. And if I'm dating someone or on the verge of proposing or getting engaged, I would want my partner to just say, I feel blank. This makes me feel this way.

partner to just say, I feel blank. This makes me feel this way. It was like the questions were kind of driving me up a wall a little bit because I was like, just, just tell them, stop with the hypotheticals and the guessing games. Just tell them how you're feeling and lay it all out on the table. Yeah. And I think that there's, I think like that's one of the most important things about being in a relationship too, is like there's certain beauty behind being able to like give yourself some sort of humility. And I think that if she or whoever's in the relationship is able to own up to their shit or something that they feel, if they're scared to anything, I feel like it goes a long way to be that honest with yourself and them.

I think part of the reason why I'm critical of Rachel in these situations is because I think she gives herself away when she's with Tino. When she's with Tino, she seems more interested and willing to hear him out and empathize with him and have a constructive conversation. I think she feels more safe. Sure.

But I'm just saying, listen, you're not as into Avon. You're not as into Zach. They never were your guys. That's fine. I understand you have to lead people on as the Bachelorette. I have no problem with any of that. I'm just more like when she gets down to breaking up with these guys, she seems to be trying to spin it as their fault. But what's

the theme of this, you know, the whole season for her, it's been a bunch of inconsistency. So when she has that one guy that's giving her the same thing every single day it's hard to not just feel like your natural self around the guy yeah no i i get it yeah and and you know it it's it sucks because maybe they needed a little bit more time between her and avon because she definitely i think felt a spark between them and i think that there was just definitely you don't think that's the truth i could tell you like come on i don't but i definitely could be wrong. I mean, I just, I'm just, you know, I think,

I think Rachel's pretty easy to read. And I don't, that's not a criticism. I think, I think that's awesome that she loves Tino so much. And if, if, if she is still with Tino, like good for them, because like, if I'm Tino, I'm going to go to, I'm going to want to see how much more of a connection I had with her than the other guys. And it's an impossible task, again, to be the bachelorette. I just don't love for Rachel.

And it's been a theme this whole season. If she stopped caring a little bit less about how she's coming across as the bachelorette, I think she would be such a better bachelorette. she would be such a better bachelorette, you know? And I think if she just really focused on trying to put herself in their shoes as much as she wants these guys to put themselves in her shoes, she would be a better bachelorette. And I think Gabby is so much better at that than Rachel.

She doesn't do it in the moment. Like Gabby seems to, like, you know, this episode cut off with her being like, hey, you said you wanted to date me. I be willing to bet that next when we open next week next week you'll hear you'll have gabby like saying something about understanding where eric's coming from i i think that um touching base on like the a new era of

the show i think you know when you got when you were the bachelor and like you had i don't know who was the bachelor it's before you like andy and all that i think nowadays it's it's it's hard to find somebody that's really certain about themselves and really feels comfortable because you know social media nowadays is such a bitch and it takes such a mental toll and unless that you have somebody like right after that season and that's completely okay with themselves, I think you're just throwing a bunch of fragile people as the lead. And I think it's really like, I am so grateful that like, you know, The Bachelor didn't happen. The Bachelor in Paradise didn't happen for me because I feel like I'm in such a different place than I was a year ago today. And I just, I couldn't

imagine, you know, like I just feel for the people that like have to go from one season to the next. It just, it just, yeah. No, it's a total grind. I think that's perfect that you said that. And it's, it's, there's a lot of truth to it. Yeah. You know, I asked when, when I interviewed Nate, I asked him if, if, if Michelle was like reading Reddit and comments and things like that. And because it sounded like maybe she was right.

And she wouldn't be the only one. We've all had those moments. Yeah, of course. maybe she was, right? And she wouldn't be the only one. We've all had those moments. Yeah, of course. If you do that, especially for people trying to maintain relationships or have relationships, it's hard not to then have that play a role in your relationship or dictate your choices and things like that. And Rachel and Gabby, they went through what they went through with Clayton. I'm sure they've been on social media. I'm sure they've listened to podcasts or

read their press clippings. And that plays a role. And I do think you would have, if Gabby and Rachel were to like, you know how on Love Island, like most of these contestants are like filming every day and like they're filming while the show's being discussed. They don't get the benefit of like seeing what people are saying about them. They get more authentic reactions. And I think, yeah, I think it affects these people's choices. And I think with Rachel, you are seeing, you saw that a little bit with Katie on her season at AFR. And I mean, it seemed like Katie was responding to Reddit

rather than responding to what she felt. And again, it's really easy to do. It's really easy to fall victim of that. A lot of people have. And, and unfortunately I think, I think you're seeing that with Rachel. And again, I like, it's, uh, I don't think Rachel is doing anything that any of us haven't done before in terms of, you know, again, having a moment where you realize that maybe I didn't handle it the best way, or I was thinking a little bit too much about my needs and not the person in front of in front of me I mean we've all done that but I definitely think Rachel is doing that a little bit you know I'm sure she's gonna look back on this and you

know what I think that we could all do better and you know different ways but I just feel like you know nowadays you know especially like reddit every one of us you know has felt victim to it at some point um i just think everyone needs therapy after they leave the show personally everyone everyone needs to get on that i wish uh i wish the show would do more of a crash course and how to like honestly i think the show should hire like alumni and and do like a two-day like this is what life has gone this is how your life's going to change yeah i was gonna say because you the way you talk about reddit is like the gym teacher and

mean girls talking about stds you're like don't read reddit standing up don't read like you will die and it's like i think it's so like it feels like maybe there's these like pitfalls that all the alumni are so susceptible to and just like fall into yeah you go down a bad path sometimes it only takes one well what happens is like you'll get you'll get they'll hook you with a compliment exactly exactly exactly you know what say something nice about you and then they'll send it to you and you're like well this can't be so bad i'll click on it and then all of a sudden then you you get hit with some sort of like criticism and then a rabbit hole. And you're just looking for one more like, I'm not so bad.

Maybe someone else will say I'm not so bad. And then you'll just keep going. You'll just keep going. Exactly. Keep going. You got to stay level headed. That's why. It is.

Therapy and self-love is the most important thing because Jesus, once you find that one compliment and then you're just searching for that for weeks. compliment and then you're just searching for that for weeks i was gonna ask because i think greg like you use the word consistency in terms of talking about what might have created conditions where rachel could have reconnected to that like love she was feeling towards avon and so my question i think this applies to both gabby and rachel is the way that they both view an engagement as the only indicator of consistency like an engagement as being the the surefire way to know that this person isn't going to change their mind when they get out into the world what do you guys think of that like do you think not getting engaged on the show is them trying to leave that door open of maybe we won't vibe in the same way like how did

you guys so i feel like um i i hear what you're saying but I think for them I think it's hard for them to start hearing these words if the midst of the whole season they have been hearing the opposite of saying like you know at the end of this I do see it me getting down one knee or I

do see this ending in an engagement and to just hear just like a little bit of doubt towards, you know, that last final days. And I understand what it's like to get cold feet, but you know, that person, everyone wants to feel like, you know, they're chosen in that sense. And every, if you're going to end an engagement, like you want it to be 100% certainty. Um, so I think that they're just looking for, you know, consistent reactions from both these men. And I think like that's where it plays in. I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to

end in engagement. I mean, I feel like if their top person has been saying throughout it and maybe they wouldn't be to the top, you know, who they're most attracted to physically and emotionally, if they came right off from the bat and said, listen, I don't know about an engagement. I don't know if any of these people would last this long but i feel like if you're saying that right from the start i don't know yeah well they don't usually though like right right like how they make the show they're very like i remember a couple weeks in i had gotten the first impression rose from andy i got an early date i was very into andy like to the point where i was just like

like terrified how much i was into her knowing how like skeptical i was of the process but even after having the first one-on-one day oh not the first one-on-one day but the third one-on-one day early very early we were still at the mansion which i mean you didn't have that experience new mexico when you're still at the. It's still pretty early in the process. It was like two weeks in. And I remember having a conversation with the producer being like, I am so into her. Like, wow, I'm like surprised how into her I am. I don't know if I'm going to like be ready for an engagement.

And I remember them saying, don't worry about that right now. You know, just don't worry about that. Like things change fast. And they were, it's true. I mean, like, but at the same time that like things change fast but and they were it's true i mean like but at the same time like there is a time and a place and they know that time and a place to like start applying more not necessarily direct pressure because no producers ever pressured me into getting an engagement but like they know when to like start having these conversations

right and so they're not having them that early on because it is even more insane to start expecting you to get engaged with someone like you had just met or had a crush on, but like fast forward two weeks, which feels like then like two or three months of in this bubble. Absolutely. And those conversations start happening a little bit more and more, and then you just start going down this path. And so I don't think those conversations are ever like really going on, but I just think, you know, this world is a leap of faith and and everyone's trying to pull for like pull on like anything they can hold on to for hope or like for have confidence so that people are looking for reasons to take a leap of faith in this world

yeah like all these guys but they still have like but nothing will make you more self-conscious about taking a leap of faith to not be able to talk through any questions that you have. And it's fine to want an engagement and it's fine to feel that pressure. But like, I think it is okay for some of these guys or anyone, regardless of the season, for them to check in and say, I don't know if I'm ready yet. Or I don't even know if I'm ready. Let's talk about it. Let's talk through it. And I'm going to feel a lot better if we can talk through it. I mean, it reminded me of a conversation with, that I had with Vanessa. It was our last date, right? Like I knew I was going to ask her, I knew I was going to propose. And Vanessa, Vanessa was on the other

end of being like, I don't know, like, I really like you, but like engagement, like fuck, you know? And she was living in Montreal and I was living in LA. And I said to her, listen, like, I know how I feel about you. I'm confident how you feel about me. I hope I'm right about that. We could definitely not get engaged and we could date and we could figure it out. And I feel like that's the pragmatic thing to do. But, and I was being serious. I was just like, you live in Montreal. I live in LA. And if we're being real, I think that us taking this huge leap of faith, like, I think it'd be easy for us to just say, we're going to date and you live on the other side of the country and I live on one. And I think like, I think we might not make it if we don't really like try to like, I almost was basically saying, I think we want to take this leap of faith because I think there's something really here between us. And I don't want to lose

that by like, just like just dating and living on the other side of the country. Now that was me obviously trying to justify it and convince myself too. But like, I was just trying to talk through it with her. I like, I recognized, I made her feel like it was okay to feel the way she did. You know, I tried to validate her feelings, but I'm like, yeah, like totally, I totally get where you're coming from. It's crazy.

But let's just consider another alternative. And that alternative was, let's just take a leap of faith. Let's just try it out. Let's live in the same city. Let's do the work and see if it can happen. She also had the right to disagree with me in that. But like it was just having that conversation of saying this worries me and then having the other person say I get that. That's a valid feeling to have.

Like that's not what's going on with these conversations about engagement. It's just like, hey, you know what show you're on. How can you say that? How can you not be ready? Like, I just think it's a little nutty to question these guys that they even have questions. I think that's what's going on, right? They're questioning the guys for having questions. Right.

And I just don't think that's cultivating a very healthy environment to get someone to say, you know what? This is a risk, but I feel good about this because if nothing else, I know we can work through issues. I mean, these people know nothing about each other. So that's one thing they have to try to figure out. Who can I talk with through issues and these issues if we have them? That's what I appreciate about Paradise because, you know, you go on this on this beach and then if the connection's not there, the connection's not there. And then there's no harm in continuing that relationship outside the show. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot different, but like, yeah. And even on Paradise, you have more chance to like have these dialogues and like talk through or work through these,

these issues. And in fairness to all these, like, whether it's Rachel or the guys, obviously like, you know, these, these, these conversations are, are set up and structured in a way that it doesn't give a lot of space for working through issues. You know, time is limited. But, yeah, I guess even Gabby, I wish, I suspect that Gabby next episode will empathize more and, like, you know, put herself in Eric's shoes and come to a common ground because we've seen that pattern with Gabby that like she she may react right away, but react. Because sometimes like these are very emotional like settings. So it's very quick to just react with your feelings. But we just haven't seen Rachel do it. Like the only person I felt like she's really been empathizing with is Tino. And I think that speaks to like how much she cares about that relationship.

Because like these other guys, I think she's just trying to survive these relationships to get to the end with Tino, which is, trust me, a feeling I very much empathize with. I just have to beat it on the drum. It feels like she's not able to get over hurdles with the Zach and the Avon relationships, such as, you know, Zach bringing up concerns. Suddenly it's like, no, this relationship is done. Or Avon, you know, misspeaking or maybe giving a different uh point of view to her friends

than he did to her suddenly like that's done too but then when it came to tino's family not liking her that's like a surmountable hurdle suddenly it's like okay well we'll be fine we'll push through so love prevails that's what i'm saying like what's what's more likely greg or i'll ask everyone that rachel is somehow capable of having these types of conversations with with with uh zach and aven just for like no other reason that she just like she's beside herself she's not on the same page she's in this emotional like world that is the bachelor and the world's getting to her she's incapable of doing with them but capable of doing with tino or is she just she cares about

a relation with tino that's the person she wants to be with and when it comes to zach and and and avon as soon as she like basically sees a weakness she's jumped on that weakness to make it their fault in the breakup i mean what's more believable because she's we're seeing it we're seeing it with Tino right and yeah she's obviously communicating differently with Tino um and I do think it's going to be Tino and her in the end um getting engaged I truly just don't think it was it was there with Zach after just like watching that episode and just her just like immediately moving on I just thought that was clear and I wish there was like more of like a clean like understanding of each other i felt like they there's i'm gonna be interested to see like them talk um at afr but well uh spoiler alert if you haven't figured out we're recording this before

the live afr i don't uh i don't even know if we're gonna wait like basically just so you know if i suspected avan and tino are gonna come out and then no nothing's really gonna be said is my guess. You don't think so. Well, I'll tell you this much. If we're going to, we're planning on dropping this episode without any commentary about AFR

and emergency, we're going to do an emergency pickup. And this episode will drop slightly later than normal. But yeah, my guess is Avin and Zach will come out and, you know, Jesse will ask them both if they miss her or something like that. And I think they'll give some sort of platitude answer like they've moved on. It

wouldn't shock me. Like there's no, there doesn't seem to be a clear bachelor front runner at this point. If you were ever going to have two bachelors, I think this is the season you do it. I think having two leads isn't ideal in a lot of ways for the show. If you're going to do it, do it right after there's, you just had two women, right? So there's going to be an interest from the audience. Even if they were frustrated with the two leads, you're going to have an entire audience who's just going on to see if men are pitted against each other and how that plays out. You don't have incredibly like strong front runner, right? So like, how about you just make it Zach and Avon?

I could see that happening. They're just so similar. And I totally get where in terms of it's similar that Gabby and Rachel were both in this insane situation, like Elizabeth Wagmeister said, where it wouldn't have made sense to have only one of them be Bachelorette after what they were put through. And so I get that in that way.

It makes sense to have Zach and Avon because they were in a very similar boat. But I think as people, I don't think there's enough contrast to watch a season of both of them as bachelors because they're both such. I agree with you. I think it would be if they do it, it's going to it's like, again, with Rachel and Gabby, it was because of this compelling storyline. And it was because of how much we are both rooting for for both of them. I don't think that's quite the same with Avon and Zach.

But if you're going to do it, now's the time to do it, right? I guess is my point. So they're just like, we have no clear, I'm thinking we have no clear front runner. We have two likable guys that like were kind of, again, ended up kind of very, Rachel has done similar, different,

but similar things to Zach and Ava, which is ultimately what I'm saying is not doing a very good job of like empathizing with their story and just making it all about her story. Obviously Clayton's was a little bit more specific, obviously when you include the whole sex and the I love you's and things like that. But at the end of the day, I think she's going about it the same way. It wouldn't shock me. I don't know. So I guess what I'm saying with the live is like, I think they're going to ask him if they miss him and they'll say like, i wish you nothing but the best but like i'm ready to move

on and find love with my person i wouldn't be shocked if you get like some taglines from both of those guys on the live uh setting themselves to be announced as the co-bachelor next week right uh i'm basing this nothing off of this is a total guess so who uh who knows but i think i think nate's window has i you know it could be nate i guess but he had that little scandal i don't which i don't think should stop him from being the bachelor but i can see a picture being uh maybe zach and avon and i suspect that rachel like i I hope Rachel comes out and acknowledges a little bit of, I'm sorry. Right. Somehow.

I hope she doesn't double down. We'll see. I don't think it's going to be controversial, but I think. Like if Avon comes out. It's not going to be. I think if anything, it would be Zach and her. I just feel like there was like a lot unsaid during that breakup. With live TV, I just don't think it's like you get 90 seconds.

And so even how it's set up, there are going to be forces speaking kind of platitudes. Yeah. What would Zach need to say for it to be? I don't know. I feel like her and Avva ended on good terms. I didn't like him and she was smiling.

Yeah. I just, I didn't get that same feeling like in the beginning of the episode. Like, you know, they're like departing.

I'm like, well, I mean, the last thing we heard about Rachel and Zach was her questioning his character. Right.

Exactly. So like that, that's what I'm saying. You know, she, but I don't think Zach is going to come out guns a-blazing on Rachel. I don't think so either. I don't think so either.

I think that he's going to come out, try to be as understanding as possible. I don't know. Also, you have to keep in mind, too, that, like, when Zach was going through that, he had no idea what was going on between Tino or any of these other guys. And if I'm Zach, I'm just watching it and being like, oh, oh yeah you didn't like me as much like that's what i'm thinking of zach i wouldn't be shocked if zach i think the buzziest thing that we might get out of this live is zach accusing rachel of leading him on yeah i i could see some sort of that happening but if they want zach to be the next bachelor at all i think they have to walk a very fine line yeah right because it's very different when i when i when i especially with this audience

like you know accusing like the the women on the season accusing a guy of leading him on and comes across very differently and when it's the other way around like it i think it really needs to be cut and dry and i don't think it like as much as it's cut and dry for me it's not for greg and i think it needs to be very cut and dry. And I don't think, like, as much as it's cut and dry for me, it's not for Greg. And I think it needs to be very cut and dry to have a guy you want to be the next Bachelorette accusing your current Bachelorette of leading him on. I think he might be a little softer with the accusation. Yeah, without a doubt.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that we've also seen Zach at all, Matt. Like, he's just felt very, like, polished and in love the whole show. Like, very much like, I'm sweet. Disappointed. And we're watching the flights with our dads. Like, he's just been Mr. in love the whole show like very much like i'm sweet and we're watching the flights with where our dads like he's just been mr wholesome the whole time so it's also

like i have no idea what we would get if we got like him upset or frazzled or like in the heat of emotion yeah did we have any bachelor tea we didn't really cover any bachelor tea let's hear the bachelor tea what's going on i want to know i met j i met I met Jason in New York and bumped into him. Like you ran into him? Jason who? From this season. Impressions? Oh, I thought you meant like, I was like, you haven't met Caitlyn's Jason? I was really impressed by him.

The one that's like actually worth discussing will actually tie in well at this time of the episode. Well, it's interesting because we're trying to predict like what's coming next and what we're going to see. And Jesse Palmer actually spoke with Daily Pop recently and talked through exactly why there was a two-night live finale, which was, you know, a first. And he said, quote, the big reason is because so much happened with both Rachel and Gabby on those last days in Mexico.

And so much has happened since that time as well. So we thought it was best to pause, bring both Gabby and Rachel live to set with their men to address a lot of controversy that's about to unfold. And I know Nick's already mentioned that he's heard from someone that like after what Rachel did at the end, people have been dissecting teasers and what we have left. And there's been footage of Rachel outside of a house. And so people are wondering if we're going to get some more footage similar to what we got, you know, with Becca and other people who got who ended their relationship after filming ended, but they film it all again. So it's like, what is this

controversy? I think that's more next week. I think that's more next week. Oh, you got to save that for the finale. That's more next week, I think. I mean, if, yeah. Well, you know, if she ended up with Tino and they break up, that's not going to be uncovered until next week. Sounds like it's... Well, Tino, I mean, shockingly, they both only have one guy left

going into next week. So my guess is, I mean, literally, the next thing to do is to get to like, this is how I think it's going to play out. We'll cut to like this fight between, not even a fight,

this situation between Gabby and Eric. And I'm almost certain Gabby's going to come out and empathize with Eric and they're going to be fine. And then you have this Tino and Rachel,

they'll both propose, season will end, and then like AFR will all be about where are they now. I don't remember seeing this clip, but if there's this clip of Rachel leaving someone's house, I guess that implies

that maybe there's a breakup or something. It implies something happened. Why else would you film after you're done? That could be real juicy. Do you think, oh God, I wonder if we're gonna get tino oh wow i guess nobody's even thinking that either know what i wanted to see and i thought it would have been really uh i mean i think you know maybe i'm totally wrong here i don't think viewers want to see this shit but eric and gabby i feel like

have such a strong connection and i would have just been like i don't know if like the producers have a say in this or not but i don't know i think in order to i think it would be really sweet if the show at one moment like when i propose to whoever i'm gonna marry i don't want the person to expect it say Say like one night, Gabby like knocks on his door and like they're sitting on a couch and she's thinking like they're just, you know,

going to have like a talk. He like proposes to her on the couch. Wouldn't that be sweet? Or is it just me? No, I think that'd be so lovely. Nick wants a like spontaneous, normal proposal too. Nick wants to do it.

Wait for this headline. Great grip bro wants to propose while sitting on a couch. Honestly, honestly, I kind of like, I kind of do. Nick wants to do it when he's cooking. Yeah, wait for this headline. Great grip bro wants to propose while sitting on a couch. Honestly, honestly, I kind of like, I kind of do. I kind of do. I kind of want it to be

like a night where we're eating Chinese food and you know what? It's like one of those just like, it's a regular Tuesday night. You know, it's not being filmed.

Greg, just say you don't want to put in the effort. No, it's not about that at all. It's not about that. I'm just teasing you. I actually, I hear you. I think there's you. I actually, I hear you. I think there's something beautiful about like just like a real, like real life moment.

In a way, like maybe it even means more. Yeah, that's cute. I agree. But some people definitely want it to be like, you know, showy. I get it. I think maybe I'm just not that guy. I suspect that Michelle will want to have it be on the platform. Michelle? The platform of love. No, you know, they always have it be on the platform. Michelle?

The platform of love. No, they always have that platform wherever they are. It's like this wooden platform and there's the... The rose. The rose, yeah. Yeah, I get it. I get it. So yeah, that's what I suspect will happen. And yeah, I think next week will be buzzy.

I don't think Avin and Zach are going to say anything to... Yeah, I think next week will be buzzy. I don't think Ava and Zach are going to say anything to... I think the live will be all about setting up Zach and Ava to potentially be announced as their next bachelors next week, is my guess. I think in truth, that's what it's all going to be about. I heard that your take, that would be a wild thing if it was Tino.

The most upset person yeah yeah yeah i mean if they're broken up if tino and rachel are broken up i mean that's who i i want to talk to you think tino would tino ever become the bachelor no i mean listen like whoever we get on the show is gonna like if it's tino i mean if it's aven i got questions if it's zach i got questions even if it's jason i got i got questions i mean i didn't like i spoke with jason briefly really impressive guy i really like i mean also super handsome and way better looking in person interesting like it's hot hot there are certain people when they're on a screen there's just i felt the same way about blake moines meeting him in person i was like oh wow

hello blake's also changed his look though he. He looks better with his hair, like, buzzed. And he has, like, a nice tan. He grew up. Yeah. Grew up. Yeah, he grew up. Grew up. All grown up.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of potentially interesting questions, but I guess if I had my pick of the litter, I mean, certainly, I guess Tino, if him and Rachel aren't together anymore. I think it would be the most out of the guys. I think it's the most compelling one. If that's something like that goes down.

I feel like Tino, depends on what Tino has to say, though. Where did it all go wrong? Do you think it'll be because of the parents? Well, his dad's just blowing up Facebook. So that'll be interesting. Oh, my God. His dad's, what do you mean? His dad like posts like weekly updates about the episodes on Facebook.

That's an excited parent. Yeah, that's an excited parent. People were shitting on me because my mom was like, my mom put up her first post night one. She's like, get your popcorn ready, everyone. I was like, holy shit, you can't say this. That's what's so scary about the show is not just the way, like, like tear you apart, but like your family like scrutinizing all of their actions. That sounds like really brutal. God, without a doubt.

She was just accepting everyone blindly left and right on Facebook. Oh, no, no. No, no. She thought that they were like work connects or people. I'm like, are you? Protect Greg's mom at all costs. How's your mom's mental health these days? Good.

After the show, my whole family, we needed a whole break. Just reality TV. I'm glad she's doing okay. Yeah, she's doing great. Have we covered everything? Yeah, any final thoughts? My final thoughts is I hope that

Avon and Zach don't say anything that important that we have to do a pickup on Tuesday night. And I'm excited to see what happens. And I'm glad we have Greg here being team Rachel being empathetic. You know, you're a sweet man. I see both sides. I see both sides.

You know, I mean, I think it's fine. I think she's still probably a wonderful person and has a great heart. I just think she faked it with Iaven and Zach, and she tried to make them feel bad about it. She tried to cover up her leading them on by highlighting any mistake they did. That's my big takeaway. I hear you.

And maybe that'll be a popular opinion. Well, I guess we'll see. I suspect it'll be split. I suspect it'll be split. I agreehmm. I suspect it'll be split. I agree. I agree. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me.

Well, Greg, it's been a pleasure. Pleasure. It's nice seeing you. I'm glad to hear you're seeing you're doing okay. But make sure you tune in to our intro next Monday for our recap to hear about Greg's personal life briefly in his heart and paradise. Tune in. That'll be it for us today.

Remember that Going Deeper is on Thursday again. Camille Kostek is with us. Sports illustrated model, girlfriend of Rob Gronkowski, also actor,

very talented, also a friend. Excited to have Camille with us. We'll talk all about New York Fashion Week. What pop culture topics also do we have going on? I think we

got to hit the Royals a little bit. And then also I think especially appropriate to talk about there's some rumors about a bit of tension between Giselle and Tom. And I think Camille could absolutely provide some perspective. Maybe she has some insight. I mean, she's dating Rob. Will Rob come back also towards the end of the season?

But I'm sure we'll also get into the... Camille and I have both been experiencing Fashion Week'm sure we'll also get into the... Camille and I have both been experiencing fashion week, so we'll talk about a little fashion. Tell us, to those of us who are not there. But that'll be a great episode, obviously, Texting Office Hours. So be sure to join us on Thursday. And again, next week, we'll be bringing you the finale

as well as hopefully the most upset person. Can't guarantee you the most upset person, but we always strive to get someone real bitter on the show. Hey, that Susie interview was great, though, and she wasn't even mad. That was an excellent interview. That's true. It did Susie to the delivered.

Not everyone can be a Susie, though. We'll see. I only hope that whoever comes, they're willing to be as vulnerable and as honest as Nate was. Which by the way, if you haven't listened to it, go fucking listen to it. It's good.

Greg, where can people find you? Promote yourself? It'll be my name on Instagram. That's Greg Grippo. I do have a TikTok now. I do believe I make funny TikToks. You do? Thank you very much, Nate.

You do. I appreciate that. You and Andrew are quite entertaining. You have a good... Yeah, that's my guy. There have been many times where Natalie and I have been on the couch and thought and said out loud audibly. Team Andrew and Justin on Paradise, everyone.

Oh, and Michael A. And Michael A. Did he... Oh, shit. Was he announced? Yeah, no, he was in all the commercials. They're all announced. All right, so they're all announced.

He spoiled himself. That's so true. Also, Gabby's on Dancing with the Stars. Congratulations to Gabby. See those moves on the dance floor? I suspect she'll do well. She's a trained dancer. I would hope so.

I'm sure she'll do great. Alright, well, hopefully we didn't miss anything too big on the live. Please forgive us. We'll pick it. We'll discuss it next week if it's that important. Unless it's groundbreaking, this is the episode you got. Because I will be in Chicago promoting my book. Oh, by the way, I have a book out.

So pre-order now. Don't text your ex happy birthday. Greg says it's amazing. I did. Great read. Taught him everything he ever needs to know about love life and this is true fuck boys how to how to stay away from fuck boys did you read that chapter i actually didn't i need to review that one anyways you can pre-order now you uh see you tomorrow or

see you thursday whatever day this is for you probably tomorrow bye Probably tomorrow. Okay. Bye.